anything goes with emma chamberlain - more than a character, a talk with rainn wilson [video]

Episode Date: March 21, 2024

[video available on spotify] i’m so honored to be bringing this guest to you because i’m such a big fan of everything this man does. today we have rainn wilson. rainn is an emmy nominated actor, best known for his role as dwight schrute in the u.s. version of the office. he’s also a producer and author. his latest book is called soul boom: why we need a spiritual revolution, and he’s also the host of the podcasts “metaphysical milkshake” and the soon to be launched “soul boom.” i've heard rainn talk a lot about anxiety and spirituality, two things that are very relevant in my personal life. i think they're relevant in a lot of our lives. i'm very anxious and because of that, i've become very spiritual to try to cope with it, which is another reason i’m excited to speak to rainn today. so let's bring in the incredible rainn wilson links to rainn wilson's audiobooks soul book: why we need a spiritual revolution https://open.spotify.com/show/0FAngrGVoxWD23qQCWgpFz?si=debcc46a05c046d1 the bassoon king: my life in art, faith, and idiocy https://open.spotify.com/show/7jWoBrtsuJ2uomdXTHVmAf?si=21d0837dbc584c22 soul boom podcast with rainn wilson: https://open.spotify.com/show/3IcR07iNbmI7rZiuJpi32d?si=f29a7d4f81864fe8 metaphysical milkshake podcast with rainn and reza https://open.spotify.com/show/0zUGqUkBdL3Cc5IP8DtUEY?si=6d4cd431962e4060 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I am so honored to be bringing this guest to you today because I am such a big fan of everything that this man does. Okay, yeah, I have butterflies in my stomach. Don't make a big deal out of it. Okay, sure, maybe I have a little bit of butterflies. Sorry. This is a big deal for me. Today we have Rainn Wilson. I mean, I'm just so excited.

I am just so excited. You know who Rainn Wilson is, but just in case you don't, Rainn Wilson is an Emmy nominated actor, producer, and writer, best known for his role as Dwight Schrute an Emmy nominated actor, producer, and writer, best known for his role as Dwight Schrute in the US version of The Office. I, as we all are, am a huge fan of The Office.

It's like everybody has their favorite comfy show, you know? And I would say for 90% of America, it's The Office. I'm a part of that 90%. I remember watching it during class in high school, and I've been watching it ever since. Rain does a lot. Rain is a busy guy, okay? He's co-founder of the media company SoulPancake, which specializes in the human experience in creating positive social change. He also is a podcaster

His podcast is called metaphysical milkshake on the podcast. He sets out to answer life's biggest questions But wait There's more coming in April. He has another podcast coming out called soul boom Coming in April. He has another podcast coming out called soul boom It's all about spirituality because rain is a very spiritual guy He hosts a TV series called the geography of bliss where he explores the happiest communities in the world I could list all of the incredible things that he does all day

But I'll finish it off with his book Soul Boom Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution. It's a book basically about how spirituality could help heal the world. That's also available as an audiobook on Spotify if you want to go listen. I feel like Rain and I have a lot in common on a personal level. I don't know him personally though. So it's like, why am I saying that I think we have a lot in common? Well, I've seen him talk a lot about anxiety, spirituality,

two things that are very relevant in my personal life. I think they're relevant in a lot of our lives, but I'm very anxious and because of that I've become very spiritual to try to cope with it. So let's bring in Rainn Wilson, the iconic, the incredible, the genius Rainn Wilson. Here he is. This episode is brought to you by Secret. Secret deodorant gives you 72 hours of clinically proven odor protection. How epic is that?

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What was your vibe as a child? That's funny, I pay my therapist, you know, quite a lot, but we're jumping right in, I love it. Okay. I know, I know. Here we're going, going right to the childhood. So how deep you wanna go? Do you wanna do like medium deep? No, I will go as deep as you wanna go.

I can go the deepest, I can handle it. I can go deeper than you, that's what she said, and that's not what I'm, that's not what we're talking about here. No, that's not today's topic. We wanna go, okay. But we can go real deep. So as a child child, I'm a year and a half, two years old,

and my mom and my dad split up. My mom takes off and I go with my dad. So what does my dad do? He packed up me and moved to Nicaragua. Whoa. Whoa. packed up me and moved to Nicaragua. Whoa. Whoa. Yeah. Whoa. Drink that in, America.

Whoa. Emma Chamberlain. Is that your name? That's your name, right? Yes, yes. Long last name. Fan base. Yeah, yes. Eat that up. Eat it up. Digest that. Yes. So here I am. I'm like a big ungainly toddler with a giant head

and a pasty torso tottering around literally the jungles of Nicaragua. Whoa. Where I spoke, as a child, I spoke fluent Spanish and I was running around on the muddy, jungly, monkey-strewn streets of Bluefield's Nicaragua. Wow.

For reals. For reals? Yeah. For how long were you there? About two year, two and a half years or so. And when I was five, five and a half, we moved back to the Pacific Northwest and I started kindergarten in Olympia, Washington.

Okay, interesting. And my dad had gotten remarried when we were down in Nicaragua to my stepmom. And so it was a weird, it was already a weird childhood. Unsettling because you don't, you got ripped out of what you were comfortable with, got taken to a completely new environment. Now you're back in the old environment.

Like it's a lot for the nervous system, I can imagine. The mom leaves and then there's a new environment. Now you're back in the old environment. Like it's a lot for the nervous system I can imagine. The mom leaves and then there's a new mom. And you're also in the jungle by the way. You're also like preternaturally nerdy. And so then I'm back in Olympia, Washington as this nerdy kid who doesn't even know like, I didn't, I wasn't very well socialized. It was like I was raised by like capuchin white-faced monkeys. And so I didn't know like the social rules of being a human being in suburbia. Then we were also very poor.

Now, when you say poor, there's a spectrum, right? I had meals, okay? We had a car. It was a used Ed meals, okay, we had a car. It was a used Edsel, which is like this weird car, but we were, I got my clothes at Salvation Army. We were in like a 900 square foot house in Olympia, and I think my dad was making like, I'm not kidding you, I think he was making like $9,000 a year,

something like that. So that's a little backdrop. And then we get into the super nerd stuff come like junior high, high school. Okay, so you consider yourself a nerd. You were a nerd. Bro. Bro.

Let's get real about this. Get real about the nerd. I always read these articles and you're like, Charlize Theron was like, I was so nerdy in high school. It's like, fuck you. You, come on. Give me a break. Did you play D&D every weekend?

I was about to say. Were you on the chess team? Were you on the chess team, Charlize? Were you on Model United Nations? Did you play the bassoon? Yeah. Like, no, no, and no. People are calling themselves nerds

because they wore glasses. Like, and they actually didn't even need them. Or they read Harry Potter books. Once. Once. Like, actually, no, watch the movie. Let's be honest, watch the movie. Read half the book and then watch the movie

when it came out. Yeah. So you were like full nerd. Full on. Do you feel like? Pimples. Oh, that too. I had that too. Oh, yeah. I wasn't a full nerd. I had back nerd. Full on. Do you feel like? Pimples. Oh, that too. I had that too.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I wasn't a full nerd. I had back knee. Me too. You had back knee? Oh yeah. I didn't know women could get back knee.

Oh, oh can they? Full back knee. I used to pop it in class and reach back and pop it just like into my shirt is disgusting, which would only make it worse of course because now pimple juice is rubbing over all the pores. Oh, it's terrible. Making more pimple. It's horrible. OK, so were you like, were you a happy kid?

Here's the deal. I did my best. I wasn't suicidal and depressed. Every day was an adventure. But on top of this and you know it's important to note too like when my dad and stepmom got married down in Nicaragua yeah when I was writing I wrote a book about my life called The Bassoon King that's a comedic memoir and I asked them I was like when did you

because they got a divorce the second I went away to college like literally went to college in September in October they told me they were getting a divorce. And I said, like, when did you know that marrying the other was a mistake? And both of them said within six months. Oh, my God. So I'm three, three and a half. They get married, they knew,

and then they stayed together till I was 18, 18 and a half. So 15 years of a really unhappy marriage, but they, I don't know, they stayed together till I was 18, 18 and a half. So 15 years of a really unhappy marriage, but they, I don't know, they stayed together for religious reasons or to raise me, thinking that it would help me. I remember being a kid, being 11, 12 years old, kind of in my head going, God, I wish they'd get a divorce. Totally.

Because they would have been, I'm really not a fan of divorce, who is, but at the same time, like don't do it for the kids. Because you pick up on this The energy. Lovelessness vibe that's going around in the household. And it was this colossal mind fuck because on a number of different levels,

like because we seem to be a quirky, albeit quirky family, but kind of a normal family, like we would sit and we would watch Mash on TV and we would have meatloaf, you know, for dinner, and we would walk the dog, and we had a little garden in the backyard. So it seemed kind of normal-ish, but there was just this

disconnection, like they never hugged or they didn't laugh together and loved and together. And so there's this like, then it makes me feel even more like an alien. Absolutely. Do you feel like it impacted your beliefs on love as a young adult? Like when you started, let's say, dating for the first time. Because my parents are divorced, and they have actually a great friendship, which is amazing.

Oh, that's great. So I'm very fortunate in that way. And I constantly am checking in on myself, like how did that impact the way that I romantically love? And it's, I don't quite know. Like I have my hypotheses, but I'm not certain. Are you certain on how it impacted you? Or are you kind of unsure?

Or maybe it didn't impact you at all? No, there was definitely an impact there. I mean, I will say this. So my dad, before he passed away, was on his fourth wife. My mom, my natural mom is, I think it's husband five. And then my stepmom also got remarried. So there was just a lot of like, you know. When my father died, I had three moms.

I had my birth mother, my stepmom who raised me, and then my dad's widow, who I'm also very close to, and I'm close to all of them. But Rain Head Three Mommies is kind of the motto. So my wife and I have been together for 32 years, and we've had some struggles. We've had a lot of ups and downs, and I don't wanna paint any kind of picture like it's,

oh, it's just been this super rosy thing. But I do think there was a response to all of that chaos in the home to try my best fitfully and not with great success to have a solid relationship to build on in a family. But in that sense, I'm grateful for that because we have a great marriage and I'm really happy to be with her tomorrow's her birthday.

Happy birthday, wifey. That's amazing. Is there some swag I can give her here? Oh yeah, we'll get, oh, we'll give you so much. Have the lamp. Okay. That's easy. But at least put my name on the tag when you give it to her. Sorry. Okay, yeah, that's fine. No, my name on the tag when you give it to her. Sorry.

Okay. Yeah, that's fine. No, it's totally cool. I'll send her something myself. But yeah, so yeah, I made lots of mistakes dating and whatnot, but I guess maybe just really wanting some kind of like long-term commitment, like have a long-term relationship and you know. Well, it could go one of two ways, right? I feel like some people probably, you know, maybe have a turbulent love that they're watching as they're like. If you become accustomed to anxiety and chaos as a child, then you seek out anxiety and chaos in your relationships

as an adult and you, because that feels normal. Absolutely. You know, and I know lots of people that had chaos and anxiety, even depression, you know, as a normal. Absolutely, yep. I know lots of people that had chaos and anxiety, even depression, as a kid in their home life, and then when a stable, calm, peaceful and meaningful relationship is presented to them, they're like, nah, not feeling it.

Totally. And then they date the person that's gonna give them all of that fireworks that they were used to. It is kind of a blessing to crave the stable option as a response to the experience. So let's go back to you in high school. What were you interested in?

What were your hobbies? What were your favorite subjects in school? Like what did you love? Well, I had two phases to my high school life. So I will say that junior year and the first two years of high school I was in suburban Seattle and that's when I was in super nerd mode. Super nerd mode. And you know played the bassoon and orchestra. I played the xylophone and marching band. Niche instruments only for you. Only niche instruments, yeah. None of that saxophone crap. No, ew, cringe. And then we had a marching band.

We were the Highlanders, so we were Scottish kilts. Whoa. So I was in a xylophone. So niche. In a kilt, walking down the street. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da. There's something very Seattle about that. Ding-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling.

Yeah. Yeah, it is very Seattle. Did you ever see that show Freaks and Geeks? Classic show from the early 2000s? No, actually. Somebody showed me one episode of it, and I never saw it again. That was so my life.

And I love that show. Love. Love that show. Yeah, Model United Nations, chess team, a computer club, debate club. Just, I loved the nerdy pursuits. I frantically read science fiction novels and I've kept most of them. They were stored in my parents' basement in boxes.

So I have them in my house. I have hundreds of 1970s, like crazy with like space girls with laser guns and big boobs on the cover and people fighting saber-tooth tigers. And my dad wrote science fiction books on the side of whatever else he was doing. So all through my childhood, he was like feverishly writing science fiction books.

He's an artist, it sounds like an artist. He can't avoid it. Yeah, he was a painter and a science fiction book writer, but he had to provide for the family. So he worked at a sewer construction company. So it was this weird combination of like super blue collar, and I lived in a blue collar neighborhood, and my friends' dads were insurance salesmen

and fishermen and loggers and plumbers, and, but then they had this weird artsy thing. So, and then to top it all off, my parents, I grew up a member of the Baha'i faith So that was a weird thing too. Just like Then you're like your religion doesn't even match what everyone else is. Yeah, one else is Protestants And so we were Baha'i so that so I felt very Alienated on a number of different levels, you know, like some kids grow up around a religion, right? Yeah, and it isn't really theirs, if that makes sense.

Like they don't really adopt it. It doesn't become a part of their personal life. Maybe it is a part of their family life, but it's not a part of their personal life. Were you religious? I went all in. You were all in? I was all in.

Tell me a little bit about that. Also, I'm not familiar with the Baha'i faith. No. So please enlighten me. Yeah, so super nutshell version. Baha'is believe that there's only one God and that all the religions of the world are essentially one religion because they're all different chapters in a book, but they're all coming from the same source, which is God. So Buddhism and the Buddha are divine, Christianity and Jesus are divine.

This sounds incredibly inclusive and positive. Very inclusive, positive. Muhammad and the Quran are divine. So we, as a Baha'i, we grew up reading all these different holy books and you know Baha'is want love and unity and harmony and all of that stuff so there's you know a lot of that kind of work and it was great growing up in the 70s as a Baha'i because it was also, you know, it was very diverse. Like it wasn't, Baha'is are very much about elimination of racial prejudice and racial differences.

So when I went to Baha'i gatherings, it was black Baha'is, white Baha'is, Hispanic Baha'is, indigenous Baha'is, like all singing and kumbaya. It was like- That's amazing. Yeah, it was very kumbaya. And I went all in on that and it brought me a lot, actually. We would go to these retreats, like summer school, winter school, we'd have... And I'd see other nerdy Bahá'í kids and we'd be like,

yeah, we're Bahá'ís. And we'd always be the only Bahá'í at our school. Yep. And be able to bond about that and stuff like that. So I left the Baha'i faith and all religion hardcore for at least 13, 14 years as an adult. So that's a whole other chapter, but that was my nerd chapter. Okay, so you were, I mean, but it sounds like,

did you have friends? I had some friends. Were you like, I had a little posse. I have a big group, or were you like, I have one best friend? My vibe was always one best friend at a time. I would pop around in a group, but I would always have one.

Who was your best friend? I've had many. Okay, so it was like a revolving door of best friends? Kind of, which sounds toxic, and it probably is. Do they do a lot of them now that you're like big cheese and whatever it is that you do? They probably think it's so bizarre. Yeah.

I think for like the Seattle contingent, I think they're like, what the fuck? That guy? Totally. The Bassoon Clan guy? Totally. No, they think that about me too. Is the celebrity?

Like that weird guy? What the hell is going on? They're a huge fan and they don't know what to do so but you were like were you outgoing no no I was very I was very shy and self-conscious and very low self-esteem were you funny I was funny okay yeah there you go I had the funny would come out yes and I learned rapidly like you know like even bullies would be like, kind of like, hey, rain rain, go away.

Hey, asshole. And they're like ready to like, like kind of mix it up or whatever, like. Rain rain, go away is not nearly mean enough for a bully. They need, that's level one. You're like, Emma, stop, you're taking away from my trauma. But that's like, that's hey, I got it almost every day. They were a little scared of you, I think that they

weren't going that hard because they were like, we're a little scared of him. It got a little harder here and there. But you're right. It was, but it was a gentler time. You know, it was the saddest I was going to say, like, I think it I think it was yeah, like do you think it was? Yes, and no, so I think that the bullying wasn't as toxic, but it was more pervasive Sure, you just it just happened everyone got teased everyone got bullied everyone got pushed around everyone scrapped You were supposed to just tolerate bullying and it was just like you know I would complain like complain. Like, they're picking on me. And my parents would be like, and teachers would be like, yeah, that's how the world is. So get used to it.

Learn how to survive with that. Really? But there wasn't any, like, parent-teacher conferences of like, so, Ricky, you've been bullying Rain. How do we work this out? And, you know, there wasn't any of that. That's crazy. It's the teachers going, okay, you two.

Yeah. And they're like, ah, pulling them apart and like, get back to class, okay, everybody, nothing to see here. Yeah. Get going. Do you feel like being bullied, do you feel like it helped you develop your humor? I think a lot of comedy comes out of pain

and a lot of comedy comes out of pain, and a lot of comedy comes out as a kind of a coping mechanism. And Arthur Brooks actually talks about that in his book. You should get him on the show. He just wrote this book with Oprah about, I forget what it's called, how to be happy or something like that. And he talked about emotional caffeine. So his concept, I'm taking no credit for this,

is that caffeine isn't actually a stimulant, it actually blocks the kind of the, the endorphins, the sleepy endorphins that are in your brain. And so what do we do to block that in other ways? So sadness can be blocked with humor. Like if you are telling a joke or goofing off or making someone laugh or laughing yourself,

it is literally impossible to be sad at the same time. Yeah, it is. You can stop and then be sad, but while you're doing it, you can't be sad. And so I think that was a big survival mechanism for me and my friends. We would watch early, early Saturday Night Live in the late 70s,

early 80s, we would do those sketches, we would watch Monty Python and do those sketches and just make each other laugh. And it was a way to get by. It was subversive. You know, like, the nerds were funny, the popular kids weren't funny. They didn't need to be. No. Because they were just getting like all this love and attention. So why would they be funny? So it's the it's the kids in the cracks that end up being funny. It's so true. When did you start thinking I could use my humor for my job? I'm gonna go to junior year. We moved to a high school outside of Chicago that has an incredible theater program. I sign up for my very first acting class,

and it's not true, I took one in Seattle, but it was terrible and we just made puppets. So I sign up for this acting class, the first exercise, I'm this new kid at school, the first exercise is called private and public. So how do you act normally in your room and allow people to just see in to just witness your private life?

So I was really into music. I loved like crazy, I liked punk and new wave and alternative type of music. And I brought in my record player and this Elvis Costello album. And I was just in my room and then I put on this song called Mystery Dance by Elvis Costello that's this rock

and then I started dancing just like crazy, like. Yeah, yeah. You know, like I would in my room. Yeah. And the crowd went crazy. They went wild in the acting class. I was in this new school. There were all these very cute girls

that all of a sudden came up. Totally. And were like, oh my gosh, you're so funny. Hey, what's your name? Welcome to our school. Do you want to sit with us at our lunch table? And I was just like, Oh, like the angels sang and I was like, no more chess team, no more bassoon, like no more model United Nations. I'm going in. I went all in on the drama nerd at that point. Whoa, okay, love it. So that was the beginning, and there's a lot more to the story, but then did drama in high school,

went to one college, did a bunch of plays, went to another college, did a bunch of plays, realized that I kinda needed like training as an actor, so I auditioned for it, got into NYU, moved to NYU and went to acting school and went all in on that, you know, in my early twenties. Let's get into acting.

When did acting become your job? Well, that's all I wanted. So my dad, like I said, he wrote these science fiction novels. He's published one of them and he painted paintings. He never sold any of them. So other than the one published science fiction book, I had never met a single person that got paid to be an artist in my whole life.

I never met someone who got money to write a poem or do a dance or be an actor or sing a song or anything like that. So that was not in my worldview, mostly in suburban Seattle. So when I decided and I went all in on trying to be an actor, I was like, I wanna get paid for this.

And that was my whole drive. I didn't have a trust fund. I had to make my own rent. I had to make my own way. So I went to this really good acting training program. That had its ups and downs, got out, and then I started doing little theater things. I was mostly training for the theater

and thinking I was gonna work in the theater in New York. But I had a ton of shitty jobs driving a moving van. My wife and I had a dog walking service. Cute. It didn't last long. It's hard work. You lost a dog, didn't you? I lost a dog in Central Park, yeah.

Gone. They're still looking for it. It was called Tales of New York. That's cute, though. T-A-I-L-S, get it? I love that. Yeah. Classwork.

We had a great poster. Bring it back. I can bring it back. Family biz. Yeah. Business. We had a great poster. Bring it back. Bring it back. Family biz. Yeah. Family business. Yeah.

Okay, so. Yeah, so I went all in and then it was, I wanted it to be my job, but I really wanted to, I thought I was gonna be in the theater, and then I did this tour. You know the actor Jeffrey Wright? He was on this tour with me. We were friends back in the day, worked together back in the day. And I finished this this tour, you know the actor Jeffrey Wright? He was on this tour with me. We were friends back in the day,

worked together back in the day. And I finished this whole tour, and at the end of it, we were getting our mail, and I got my bank statement, and I had $1,200 in the bank. And I had worked for nine months, and I was like, oh fuck. And then Jeffrey was there,

and Jeffrey was opening his mail, and then I'll never forget it. He's like, yeah, oh my God, woo, yeah. He'd gotten a residual check because he had done three days on a Harrison Ford movie and he had a check for $3,500. He was like, whoa, this is awesome. And in my head right then and there I was like,

okay, I'm in the wrong business. If I'm ever gonna buy a house, ever gonna pay off my student loans, I gotta get into film and TV. So it was a long road, dude. I did nothing but theater for nine or ten years in New York before I did any TV or film. But I really, you know, a few years in just kind of focused on like, I need to try and get some film and TV work. Yep. Do you prefer theater or film and TV? What do you think is more fulfilling? So I really and it sounds like a cop-out but I really like all of it. Wow. I'll tell you why. They all have very different demands. It's kind of like

saying to a musician like do you like playing on an album? Do you like playing live? Right. Or do you like writing songs with songwriters? Yeah. You know, on around a campfire. It's like they're all different expressions of music. Yep. And a good musician is gonna love all of that. Absolutely. So theater, you know, you're up in front of an audience. It's 90 minutes to two hours. You are telling the story. You are driving the story just with your acting chops. There's no cuts.

There's no music. There's no visual effects. It's just you and an audience. And the actor is king in that sense. A film is really intense and really short. You go on a film, you're going to be on it from two weeks to six months. And it's a really compact time of your life. And you're figuring out the arc of the character and you shoot it maybe crazy out of order. You,

so many times I've done a movie and you're shooting like the last scene on the first day. So you've got to really track, so it's about that intensity, and it's really in the director's hands. Yeah. Then on a TV show, you know, like The Office, like other ones that I've done, like the TV show is the domain of the writer, and they're the ones building the one-year arc,

the five-year arc, the nine-year arc of the show, season to season the arc where the characters are gonna go. And it's like, it's a great steady job, an amazing paycheck. And it's comforting to like go in and get to play, you know, Dwight for 12 hours a day for nine years. And it's another family and that's a whole different experience.

It sounds like you love the art of acting. I do. And, cause I don't think... I did not go into it for fame or money. I really didn't. Exactly. In fact, I was on Bill Maher's podcast tonight. He was like, well, you got into it for the fame. I was like, no, I didn't.

He's like, come on. I'm like, no, I love the craft of acting. I love the craft of storytelling. I love the craft of storytelling. I love to transform into characters that are different than myself. And I've always just loved that. Did I wanna pay the bills? Sure.

Did I wanna ultimately buy a house? Sure. But I didn't go into it to become the wildly successful talent that you see before you. Do you like being famous? I'll be really honest with you. Please. Mostly, yes.

Oh. Because of the doors that it opens. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So I went into this incredible restaurant with my managers. We had a dinner and then then they recognized me and they're like blah blah blah here's our number and you can come in anytime.

So then my wife's birthday, like last night we went yeah and I got to use that and get a nice table. Yes. They gave us some free scallops and I was like this is awesome right and I've gotten invited to tennis tournaments and trips to places and you know, you know, you get a lot of perks from it that for a nerdy kid from Seattle, I'm like, I'll take it. And I'm super grateful for Dwight, but it can be it can be tough to just be known mostly for one character. I've played dozens and dozens of characters. Absolutely. But I'm mostly known for one. And that can be tough. And it can be tough socially in a lot of ways, like just how you're treated.

And let's get, you want to get deep? Here we go. I love getting deep. When they asked young people not long ago, what was their number one goal? Did they want money? Did they want sex? Did they want happiness? Did they want sex? Did they want happiness?

Did they want blah blah blah blah blah? By far and away the thing they wanted the most was fame. Because fame gives you all that. Theoretically, fame gives you money. It gives you sex. It gives you status. It gives you, you know, supposedly happiness. It doesn't give you happiness. If you have a hole in you, fame is not gonna fill that hole. It's, in fact, it's gonna take you away from your happiness because then you don't, you have not done the work

to build up your internal sense of self where it's like I love myself, I want to be with myself, I have a vision of what my life is and I'm content in that and I have mission and purpose and vibrancy and then fame just it just breeds more fame. It's like a drug like you're just you're chasing it ever more. And you want more likes and more followers and more jobs and more money and more status and more esteem. And you're searching outside of yourself.

And it's a crazy thing. Like get this. And maybe you've had, I don't wanna hear your experience. Like when I started to get famous, which was later for me, late 30s, early 40s, from the office and I did this couple of shows before that six feet under and some other things and I started to get recognized like it was the weirdest thing for the picture that that nerdy

kid that I was talking about whose mom took off who's whose parents were in a loveless fractured marriage yeah with a lot of just alienation all around me and then picture that guy that same guy at 38, 39, walking down the streets and people going, hey, I love you. And which is a weird thing to say. Yeah. I love, and they turn like, I love you. I love you. I'd like, I'm being loved. Finally, I'm loved. Oh my gosh. I'm loved. It's like, it's not love. Yeah. I've loved oh my gosh I'm loved it's like it's not love yeah I've laughed at you and I appreciate your work is what they should be saying and yeah I enjoy what you do is but they don't love me yeah they don't love they don't even know you they don't know me and

they don't love the kind of essentially unlovable Rainn Wilson, so. I doubt that, you're very lovable. But it's, no, but I understand that because, I mean, I think it's interesting because for me, you know, my career has been, they only know me. I've never been a character, so it's so unusual because when they say say like, oh, I love you, it's like, this is weird because you actually do kind of know me and I am,

there is always going to be parts, there are parts of me that are not seen. You're not going to share. I can't share everything. They don't see my mental breakdown. Like, I don't know, like they don't see me on a grumpy day. It is weird because you almost feel maybe, is it imposter syndrome in a way? You're receiving all this love and affection and you're like, but I don't feel like it's deserved. Was that sort of your experience?

Or was it more like they don't know me and they think that they do so this is kind of bizarre and hard to digest? What was your reaction to suddenly having all these people fawn after you and love you? It's just a colossal mind fuck because who doesn't love people coming up and saying, hey, I love you or I love you, or I love your work, or I love what you do, or you're great? Like, everyone loves that. Celebrities are lying if they say like,

oh, I don't like fame, or I don't like that. Like, everyone likes that. That is a very human thing. But at the same time, in the first few years that I was famous, it kind of went to my head in some not healthy ways. And I'm not saying I went on like cocaine-fueled binges and you know, but it didn't mess with my head and messed with my ego because, and I'm also not saying I became like this arrogant narcissist, you know, but I

could be a dick sometimes and it was really hard for my wife to put up with me during a lot of those years. And I wanted more. And I was, you know, I've talked about this on some other. Oh, it was the opposite of imposter syndrome. It was like, I got this. I'm gonna soak it up. I wanna soak it up and I want more of it.

And I want more, I see. How come I'm not getting even more? That chase is like, oh, this feels good. Then I want more. Absolutely. Now, a lot of, then I want more. Absolutely. Now, a lot of people, I imagine people are watching and going, boo hoo hoo, cry me a river, you celebrities. You make money, you get endorsements.

Oh, it's so hard. It's a lot harder to be a plumber and to pay your bills, but still, people view it as like, oh, once you get a certain level of fame, then you are arrived and you are going to have it all and you won't have any worries. We talked about anxiety a little bit and I was a very anxious child and turned into an anxious adult.

I've been treated for anxiety, I have an anxiety disorder. Anxiety makes me do a lot of things I don't wanna do, and fame, it's like pot. Pot makes you think that you're calming your anxiety. It doesn't really calm your anxiety. It's just putting like a blanket over it temporarily until you come like kicking and thrashing out of the blanket. So fame is the same thing.

Like it's seemingly soothing your anxiety. Oh, they like me. Oh, I'm popular. Oh, I've got a new job. Oh, that's soothing. But it's not addressing that essential wound. My anxiety response to fame is so the opposite. Like me being in the public eye gives me so,

so much anxiety. More anxiety, yeah. Yes, like it is a trigger for me. I think it's also the internet age. But you chose to be in the public eye. You chose to be in the public eye. And you could not do it. I could totally not do it.

But I have to weigh the pros and cons. Cause I love, there are so many things about it that I love, so it's so worth it. So it's more like managing that relationship. What is I think so frightening is sort of the town square, like you feel like you're always in the middle of the town square in a way, even though no one really cares and it's not really that deep, but you feel like every move you make maybe, it's you're being scrutinized, which you are in a way. And that I think is what causes me a lot of anxiety.

But it is, there is a difference between being an actor. Now people know me from Instagram and social media or whatever. There's a certain level of play there and being on podcasts like this where I'm talking as myself, but mostly people know me as a character. So that is a little separation. But you're right. You come up in this lens and it's like, people are following your every move, what you're wearing,

what you're saying. And so your every action is scrutinized in a way where it's kind of like, god, can I just go get a smoothie and not take a shower and not have someone try and sneak a picture on their phone and post it or something like that? Well, I think the age of social media has impacted what being a celebrity is, you know what I mean?

Or being famous is, because anything can be posted at any time of you. There is a lot of Dwight on TikTok. Is there? Of course. I mean, what is your relationship to that character? Like you're probably so, are you just so sick of talking about it?

Like, or will it never get old because it was such a huge part of your life and it is, I imagine, such a special character to you. Like, what is your relationship to Dwight? Well, yes and no, I'm sick of talking about it. I've talked about it a ton, because not just over the last 10 years since the show ended, but during the nine years of doing the show. So it's been almost 20 years of talking about Dwight.

Yeah. So part of it is like, who likes to talk about anything for 20 years? No, yeah. But at the same time, I understand the lasting legacy of that show and how important it is to people, how important it is to their mental health and how much it has helped calm and qualm people's anxiety and people are so obsessed with the show,

they love it so much. I go to sometimes, I'll go to a fan conference and do some signings or run into people or whatever. Like people are crying, they're sobbing, because that show just meant so much to them. So I wanna honor that, you know? And you know, like I said, I played dozens of characters before Dwight.

I've played a couple dozen characters since I played Dwight. It's just one of the characters that, it happened to be the one that was on a home run show that lasted, but I have a great relationship with Dwight and a great testament is that people can't believe how different I am than Dwight And they yeah, but they see some similarities and I owe some similarities. Yeah Dwight opened so many doors for me Yeah, I mean I've had so many incredible opportunities to do movies and to meet incredible folk and to travel and obviously to buy a house and a great paycheck

and an amazing office family. So super, super grateful, how could I not be? But I do, I hope at the end of the day that people understand like, oh, he was an actor and he was a good actor, and he was good in a lot of different roles. Well, that's what I was gonna say. What do you feel like is a role that you did

that you wanna talk about more? Like, because it was so. Well, I haven't done any for nine years, so I didn't do 200 episodes of any other role. Right, of course. So, you know, I... But even something that was like, even if it was like a tiny indie film

that no one ever saw, like whatever, like what is that character for you? What is that role for you? All right, I did, the first thing that popped in my head is I did this indie film 10 years ago called Hesher. And it was with Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Natalie Portman. And no one saw it for some reason. It's a really good movie. The score is by Metallica. Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Natalie Portman. And no one saw it for some reason.

It's a really good movie. The score is by Metallica. Whoa! And it's a really fucked up and funny drama. And I play this kind of really sad dad, his wife has died, it's a dramatic role, I'm pill popping, and it's a role I loved playing. And a lot of people saw the film and had no idea

it was the guy who played Dwight. And it was kind of like, for them, it was like jaw dropping because I just, I looked so different and acted so different and they couldn't even put it together. Wait, I need to watch this? Yeah, yeah. It's a really good film. Yeah. What is your favorite type of, like what was sort of your favorite

type of character to play? Like was there something that you were drawn to? Is it something that's similar to you or something that's maybe as far away from you as possible? Like what was the most exciting to you? Well, I think from the background that we talked about, like I love to play misfits, and I love to play people that don't fit in.

I wouldn't know how to play someone popular or well-balanced. I just, I mean, could I do it? I could kind of fake my way through it, you know what I mean? Like, could I play like a handsome popular CEO? Like, well, maybe I could give that a try. Hell yes, you could. Who used to be in a frat, like maybe,

but I'm always gonna be attracted to the oddballs and the weirdos, and the people that have anxiety and alienation and just don't quite fit in. That's where my heart goes. Those are the people I'm drawn to. Those are the people I love, and those are the characters I like to play. You you going to do some acting? You should do some acting. You know, I actually did. I've done one audition before.

Oh, wow. Okay. I actually really, and I didn't think I would enjoy it because I didn't grow up doing theater. I want to manage your acting career. Oh my God, I would love that. Can I be your manager? Yes. That's really easy. That's easy. Emma, we've got an audition for you. You can do the reads with me?

No, that's how manager doesn't do that. Come on! Just the first- That'll cost you. Okay, fine, fine. Per hour or like per minute. You're more permanent for that? We could go $1,000 an hour.

Ouch. That's fine. We'll work it out. Well, actually there's something that's really interesting to me more. Ouch. That's fine. Worth it. We'll work it out. Well, actually, there's something that's really interesting to me about acting is my entire career is quite literally, it's all about me being myself all the time. That's all it is. I've almost never played a character and there's something so appealing to me and almost refreshing to me about the idea of doing the opposite.

I think what's curious to me is like, can those who are familiar with me separate me from me from what would be the character? You know what I mean? It's almost like this opposite sort of like, for you, people talk to you and they're like, where's Dwight? Like what's, you know. Oh that was kind of like Dwight. It's like, are they gonna, with me, they're like,

she, this is weird, like she would never, like they're immediately gonna be like, well that's not her, that's not her. But maybe not, like I don't know. I don't know how it would translate. It's a relief from being yourself sometimes. It is. Like, oh, I get to be in someone else's shoes,

see the world through the lens that they see the world, can have thoughts and feelings that they're having, not necessarily what I'm having. And there's something really magical about that transformation. I don't wanna sound pretentious, but it's exciting to do when you can hook in to a character's guts and

transform from your normal slobby self then it's great. Do you feel like as an anxious person, like it's an anxiety relieving sort of activity to be on set? It is interesting. Yeah. I mean there is a different set of anxiety. Like if you're on a set and everyone's watching, how good are you?

There's a certain anxiety. If you're on a stage and there's people watching, that's a different kind of anxiety. The kind of anxiety that I have has to do with just me being in my own skin. And just my anxiety, I do a lot of things to, I don't wanna say control it, but to manage it.

So I do exercise, I do prayer and meditation. I'm in therapy and I have other tools to, when it starts to creep up on me, I can recognize it and say, oh, hi, there you are. Hi, hi, anxiety, what's going on? Like, what do you need? Oh, you're afraid right

now. Do you need soothing? You know, to me, I feel like anxiety and my therapist works with me on this a lot. It's like, it's like, it's a need that's not being met. So when it appears, it's like, you have to, you have to go not just, oh, I'm a suffering, I'm a slave. I'm a victim to my anxiety. What's the next step? What is my anxiety telling me that I need? Yeah telling me that I need to unplug for a while Yeah, they're telling me I need to exercise is it telling me that I need a hug Is it telling me that I need a nap is it telling me I need to be in nature? Yep Does it telling me that I need to kind of finish those things that I've been putting off for months that I said I was

going to do like Allow it to be your teacher and your guide. Don't allow it to become your master. And it takes a while to figure that out. You know, it took me decades to kind of figure that out. But now when the anxiety arises, I get to detach from it with love. I get to, it's welling up, I get to go, oh, there you are. Put my arm around

it. What do you need? You know, what do you need? Do you get panic attacks? I used to get panic attacks a ton in my 20s. Yeah. I'm going through that phase right now. I get so, so many and it's horrible. It's like, and it's, but it almost becomes, I, this thing where, and maybe you had this experience too, where it's like you become afraid of getting another one because you know how debilitating it is to get one. 100%.

And you start to feel it well a little bit. You feel the hackles rise and your breath gets a little short and you're like, oh no, I'm going to get one. And you get more anxious. And then you get one because of it. It's like you maybe just were a little nervous, now you're like fully having a panic attack. It's horrible.

There are two different types of anxiety. There's like anxiety that comes as a reaction of something and it's inevitable. Being on stage, of course you're anxious. But then there's anxiety that's like, it's almost unnecessary. It's not. It seemingly comes from nowhere.

Yes, yes. But you know how you get in through an anxiety attack. Like you learn, you don't fight it. You just, you recognize, oh, here it is. And it sucks, but you have to breathe through it and you know it's gonna pass. You don't hold your breath, you breathe. I would always lay down on the floor

and you know, kind of fetal position and just, and then it would pass and then you learn okay it's gonna pass you know. I used to get them on talk shows. So when I was doing like the big talk shows like Letterman and Leno and Kimmel and stuff like that I would get them before the talk show and that was part performance

but it was also part like imposter syndrome of like, you're not funny enough, you're not good enough, people aren't gonna like you. Where was the pressure coming from to be funny? Was it coming from within? Was it coming from the industry? Like where was that pressure? It's two parts.

Number one, it's the most artificial form of entertainment there is. Like if you're going on Jimmy Kimmel, you talk to the producer, like we're gonna have you on for six minutes. What funny things happened to you? You know, what stories can we tell? And they're looking, it's kind of scripted.

You know, it's worked out ahead of time. And you're expected, and especially for someone like me, I'm expected to go on there and be really funny. Right, because I'm the guy who played Dwight, but I'm not a standup. Yeah. Like I'm an actor. I play characters and the characters are written funny. Yep.

You know, I'm not necessarily, I'm a little bit funny, but I'm not like that kind of funny, you know, I'm not like Seth Rogen funny or, you know, standup comic funny, you know, John Mulaney funny. I can't just go riff and just be brilliant. So that's the one pressure. And then the other pressure is like, oh, you're not gonna be funny. They're gonna see through you.

You're gonna see what a loser you really are. And, you know, then there's that imposter syndrome kind of thing. And then that's the fear of like, they're not gonna like me. I'm gonna bomb. So it's this two pressures, ugh. So that was tough to negotiate for a while.

It only lasted a couple years, but then, and then I got through it. You're podcasting it up. Yeah, yeah, I'm podding it up. So are you balancing podding and acting, or are those? Exactly, I'm in a great space because I used to just be all about my acting career.

And I had such a low self-esteem if I wasn't working or if I wasn't getting new work. And it's definitely things have kind of slowed down to a certain degree. But you never know. In showbiz, all of a sudden, I could do something and it takes off. And things work out great.

So I'm still acting. I'm going to go do a movie in two months in New York, and I'm gonna do a play in LA later this year. So I'm gonna do the acting, but I wrote this book called Soul Boom, Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution, and it's really about the power of spirituality

to affect your life, both on a personal personal level but also on a societal level. And I love having those kinds of conversations, like just the conversation we're having about like anxiety and mental health, but also like how do we make the world a better place and how do we think about spiritual tools to help transform the world? We've just recorded like 15 episodes of the Soul Boom podcast that's coming out in April. And I love it. It is absolutely my bliss is to be having these kinds of conversations, meaningful, deep, impactful conversations that are also a little funny.

Yes. Come on, a little funny. A little funny. We're cut from the same cloth, Chamberlain. Yes. And you're my second favorite Chamberlain. Richard Chamberlain. Oh, I'm happy to be second. That's easy for me.

Okay. But if you met my dad, I would be third. And if you met my mom, I might actually be fourth. Oh, wow. I have like fun parents. They're great Chamberlains. I know. Wow.

So this doing this pod and this kind of work and writing and is I love it and I get to do that and acting so it's just win-win. See that's great. It's nice to do a little bit of everything but for some reason when I saw that you had this new podcast coming out I was like is this the new vision? Are we still acting? Or is this the new vision? But I think it's so exciting to hear that no. It's like you're just adding this on to what you're already doing. Acting is not done. Is your relationship to acting still healthy?

Do you feel like you're going to act forever? I feel like I'm going to act forever. I don't know where that's gonna go. I love doing theater. I spent my first nine years as an actor doing theater. You know, I may do a lot more, but I would like to die on stage. Wow!

Playing like King Lear or something like that and have a heart attack. I love that. That's how I wanna go. That's amazing. Yeah. And iconic. And hopefully I don't like shit myself

and puke on the stage when I do it. You will. Like I, can it, would it be possible for me to die on stage like sexy, in a sexy way? Maybe, but like I think the shitting isn't the shitting that always happens. Or would it be like, Bleh, bleh, shh, piss myself, like, uh, blood.

Maybe you could be kind of romantic and like maybe somebody catches you. We could plan it. Okay. I'll manage that. Okay. You'll manage my death on stage. You manage my acting career and then I will then in return.

Deal. Manage this. Deal. However, I know you mentioned earlier a thousand dollars an hour. First something let's get that down to 500 an hour. Okay. And then I'll manage. Deal. Do you see where I'm at? let's get that down to $500 an hour. Okay. And then I'll manage. Do you see where I'm at?

Oh yes, I got you. Do you watch what you're in? Rarely. I wouldn't if I was an actor. I watched all the Office episodes once. So there's a lot of them I haven't seen in literally like 16 years. Interesting.

Yeah. So people will ask me Office trivia and I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I can imagine you don't even remember shooting half of it, probably. I don't even remember. Right? People will say, remember the scene

when you were put Creed in the trunk of your car and you guys were eating hot dogs with Andy on the roof? Like, I have no idea. No, I get it. Do you have a show that you watch as people watch The Office? No, I mean, there's shows that I love that a lot of other people love

that are just great television. I rewatched The Sopranos again recently and God, it was so much fun. I just love that show so much. I feel like there's a lot of other of those kind of shows I want to rewatch the greats Madmen is great breaking bad is great. I haven't loved Game of Thrones. Have you seen any of these? You know, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, can I tell you something about me? No, you need I'm gonna you need to shut the fuck

You need to shut the fuck up right now. You need to send me a list. Have you not seen... I've never seen The Sopranos. Have you seen Breaking Bad? Game of Thrones? Oh my God, I don't know how to have this conversation with you. Can we wrap this up? Oh my God.

I know, I need to send you home. Because this is what you're doing all the time. And you could be doing this. Can I tell you? Instead of this. Kids. Get off your fucking asses and doing this. And start clicking. Can I tell you my excuse? I didn't grow up with cable. So I grew up with a computer. I watched so much YouTube growing up. That was my thing. I've watched a very limited number of- Don't you love entering the world of a show though? I do, I do.

Like it's a slow, the slow thing of like there's eight or 10 or 20 episodes a year and like you're going on an eight year journey and like, you know, like they get the popcorn and like put your phone away and just like immerse. Oh, popcorn sounds so good. Wow, buttery popcorn. Think about how good that sounds right now.

Did you see Dune? No, I saw the first one actually. You haven't seen Dune too? No. Did you see the first one in the theater? No. Oh, god damn it. You have to go to the theater and see the second one.

Is it so good? So good. Really? Oh, it's so good. Okay, I'm gonna associate that. I like, am very, I have seen very few movies, and I've seen, and I've watched very little TV.

Like, there's something about me. There's something wrong with you. There's something wrong with me. No, it's because I grew up on watching YouTube that I love YouTube. Like, at the end of the day, when I go home and I wanna put something on the TV, I'm putting up YouTube.

You know, I have watched a few shows all the way through. I'll tell you, have you watched How To with John Wilson? Yes, I love it. That I rewatch constantly. But that's like a YouTube show. I rewatch the Office, but it's fine. Of course I rewatch the Office, but then I also rewatch. How many times have you seen the Office?

Twice all the way through, which is a lot for me. That is a lot for you. That's a lot for me. Yeah, for an average Office fan, that's any shit. No, no, no, no, I'm like actually a rookie of the year, but like, I don't watch a lot of TV. Yeah. I don't know, but I feel like a rookie being bad at TV. I'm gonna give you

some names of some shows and it's okay. Are you gonna forgive me or are you gonna fire me even though I'm your client and you're my manager? It's a generational thing, I get it, I understand it. Now we need to get spiritual. I would love to get spiritual. I'm curious, are you a spiritual person because of your childhood? Because you grew up with a rich, you know, sort of spiritual experience?

Did you become more spiritual as an adult out of necessity because life gets just more complex? because life gets just more complex. And I feel like every year that goes by, I need to be more spiritual, I'm finding. When I was younger, I was like, eh, don't need it. Now I'm like, oh my God. When you say spiritual, what does that mean to you? Because that means a lot of different things

to a lot of different people. For me, spiritual is any sort of feeling of connection to something bigger. And it doesn't matter what it is. It can be religious, it could be completely personal. For me, I went to a Jewish preschool and then a Catholic high school. But I am not super religious.

I never went to church with my family on the weekend. So it was like around me, but I wasn't super religious. And then as I'm growing older, I'm becoming more spiritual out of necessity. Like actually it's like all, I cannot survive without that element. I think a lot of Gen Z, my understanding is that

Gen Z more and more are turning to potential spiritual answers for not only the anxiety, depression, alienation, loneliness that they might feel, struggle with, addiction issues, overwhelm, but also as the systems around us continue to fail, the political system is dog shit, let's face it. The economic system is increasingly unfair, racism and sexism continue to rear their heads constantly, the environment is degraded. I think Gen Z people are more and more interested in looking at what would a spiritual solution to this look like

based on spiritual concepts like compassion and mutuality and consultation and love and selfless service toward others. And I definitely feel that in your generation. It's a uniquely challenging time because it is cushy and comfortable in ways to live today compared to 100 years ago. You know what I mean? But then in other ways it's so complex but I think that there's been a dismantling of

like traditional religion in America anyway where there's so many people who are rejecting a traditional approach, and they're, but they still need that something spiritual. Yeah. What's your spirituality routine right now? Well, let me go back to the first question. Yeah. Because when I said I left the Baha'i faith when I was a kid and I went into my adulthood, what happened for me is anxiety, depression, addiction, loneliness hit me hard in my 20s. And back in the 90s, there weren't a lot of answers for those things.

It wasn't like you couldn't go to betterhelp.com, you couldn't get the mindfulness app, you couldn't listen to betterhelp.com. You couldn't get the mindfulness app. You couldn't listen to the podcast on wellness. Like there weren't these resources out there. A couple of self-help books in the Barnes and Noble, but that was about it. So I know who could afford therapy back then. So I turned to the only thing I knew,

which was spirituality. So I started, out of my personal misery, started reading the writings of the Buddha. And I read the Bible and I read the Quran and I was searching for something. Cause I thought, well, maybe if I tap into some greater meaning and some greater connection beyond, like you said, myself, then I will find some solace.

And I think humans are wired this way. Humans are wired to be spiritual. We always want to find something greater than ourselves. We always wanna worship something greater than ourselves. And that might be money, that might be your career, it might be celebrity, who knows what it is, but we always wanna, we wanna find something greater than ourselves

to worship in a way. But oftentimes we're worshiping the wrong thing. We're worshiping success or worshiping status or worshiping our social media personas. But what would it be like to worship? Oh, I don't know. God and by God, I don't mean an old white man on a cloud with a beard who's judgmental. That's not what I'm talking about, but some kind of power force that courses through this universe and infinite other universes that we can tap into and find inspiration and connection.

So I came to spirituality out of necessity, not out of virtue. And I think that doesn't mean I'm arrived or especially wise or illumined or anything like that. I just, I needed it to cope. And that brought me back to my Baha'i faith of my childhood. And I am a participating member of the Baha'i faith, but I think for everyone, it's what tools can we find

from spirituality, from all the different rich, beautiful faith traditions to make our lives better. So my daily practice is prayer and meditation every morning, a connection with my higher power. And I'm able, I have a little bench out of my backyard, so I'm able to kind of connect with nature, and there's hummingbirds, and there's, you know. You said it so well, just instantaneously,

like what does spirituality mean to you? And you're like connection. Yeah. And it's all about connection. It's connection with something greater than ourselves. And that can be a friend group, you know, as we're increasingly isolated. So I connect with my friends and I try and think

about my life in terms of, here I have, I've been given these talents and attributes for whatever reason. I'm this big, weird character actor who's intrigued by spirituality and issues around mental health. Like what can I offer? Because when I'm, when I'm able to give of myself, not only does it benefit the world, it also makes me feel better.

So I try and harness that as well. It's so true. When do you feel the most spiritually aligned? I don't know if I've ever felt perfectly spiritually aligned. I feel like I'm always working on it. Yeah, I don't think it's something you arrive. You never arrive at the mountaintop

and all of a sudden you're there. It's a process. It's a process. It's a mastery. If anyone undertakes tennis or Tai Chi or chess or one of these things, like they are, you're seeking mastery, but that doesn't mean you ever arrive. You seek to become better and better at it and gather more and more tools. But when I feel the most spiritual is in nature, and I try and go camping at least once or twice a year

and like really do, you know, hardcore. There's a psychologist who came out recently with this thing, I forget who they, or their apologies, I forget who it is. But they talk about how we need to get outside at least every day. Then we need to have like play dates in nature at least once or twice a week.

And then we also need to go isolate in nature at least once every couple months. So think about like connecting with nature on ever deepening ways for our well-being. But I also, like you said, connection. Like love, gratitude, connection with others is where I find God. And it's yet do I worship like a power greater than myself? Do I worship some kind of like cosmic energy force that's

creativity and beauty and music all wrapped into one? Yes I do. Mm-hmm. And I believe that that force is very powerful but I also find God just in connection with others. Amen. I'm finding God in this podcast room with you. Really? Right here. Oh my god you're You're like my god today. Stop it. I mean it. I mean it. Yes.

Is that what your god does? God picks his nose too. Sorry. OK. That was amazing. I feel like we can set each other free today. Let's do it. Do you feel like we nailed it?

Total freedom. What do you have after this? Do you get to go take a nap? I might go take a nap today. I am going home and I'm taking a nap. 100%. And then I'm gonna play tennis tonight. Cute!

Yeah. Hey, thank you for doing this. Okay, thanks. Thanks for having me. It was so fun. Yeah, it was great. I can't wait for your podcast. Yeah, well, there's an open invitation if you would would like to come, we shoot it out in suburban LA.

It's a little drive, but it's really fun. And I guarantee you, there'll be delicious snacks and an invigorating conversation. We'd love to have you on Soul Boom. I would love to. OK, we'll get that on the books. OK. You're the best.

Appreciate it. Bye.