anything goes with emma chamberlain - vaping and the female orgasm, a talk with wendy zukerman [video]

Episode Date: March 7, 2024

[video available on spotify]  you know what i'm a victim of? misinformation on the internet. a headline from a non-reputable source that says turmeric will cure your depression, i'm clicking. there's a whole lot of hearsay on the internet and none of us are safe from it. so today i have a treat for all of us - wendy zukerman, host of the hit podcast science vs - a show that takes a topic and lays all the science out on the table. today, we're going to answer some science questions that i have because wendy's like a walking scientific journal. so sit back, relax, and enjoy miss wendy.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You know what I'm a victim of? Misinformation on the internet. Whoa, do I love it? Ooh, I love it. A headline from a random, non-reputable source that says, Turmeric will cure your depression. Okay, I'm clicking. Okay, I'm ordering turmeric on Amazon.

You're your depression. Okay, I'm clicking. Okay, I'm ordering turmeric on Amazon. I am not safe from this side of the internet. It's not even like this side of the internet. The internet is filled with truth, lies, and everything in between. There's always a lot of hearsay going on. Okay, there's just a whole lot of hearsay on the internet,

and none of us are saved from it. But today I have a treat for all of us. Wendy Zuckerman, a science journalist for over a decade, reporting on everything from octopus intelligence to superbugs to ozempic. Think of a topic. Wendy has probably read 15 studies about it. She started her career as the Australian correspondent for New Scientist magazine and then went to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

And in 2015, Wendy started to notice healthcare trends that were very misinformed. And that's when she came up with the concept for her podcast, Science Versus, where she basically takes a topic and lays all the science out on the table. Because again, there's just a whole lot of hearsay all the time. We're just going to answer some questions that I have today because she's sort of like a walking scientific journal. So sit back, relax, and enjoy Miss Wendy. This episode is brought to you by Secret.

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mart today were you a science kid in school because I was oh I was not really like you know how like you backpedal your life story and you're like I was meant to be a science journalist or and there is I like I did find because now I live in Melbourne like back in my hometown, I did find, because now I live in Melbourne, like back in my hometown, and I did find a book that I wrote when I was like in year two or something that was like how Plark forms. And it was like basically what I'm doing now.

Like it was like, you know, the little bacteria live on your teeth. And I was like, look, I was destined to be, but the truth is like, I wasn't really that interested in science at all. I guess I was more of a drama kid. That's so funny. So you were not into science, but were you naturally maybe curious?

I mean, I studied it, so finished high school and was like, I don't want to get a job yet, so I got to go to college. And then was curing cancer is a thing that seems great in the world. So that's why I studied biomedical science and it was just and then was really bad. I'm a nerd in that I want to get good grades. So I was studying really hard, just broke learning stuff, didn't really understand anything. In like my second year of uni, I had the Bunsen burner. Like I was terrible in lab.

Had the Bunsen burner on too high and melted some equipment. It was so bad that I almost got kicked out of uni because they were like, you must be incompetent. Like, they didn't believe I could be incompetent. So they were like, you must be a pyromaniac. What? And I managed to convince them. I was like, no, I didn't believe I could be so they were like you must be a pyromaniac What and I'm not a chick of it if I was like no, I didn't do it on purpose. I swear Whoa, I just did it anyway, and then I walked out of that meeting. I was like, okay clearly I'm not gonna be a scientist. Okay, but then somewhere along the way like realize that what I love is

Science stories is like there's so much like fun stories of discovery to be found in science. It's like how we know how the world works is how we know like why you should go on one diet and not the other. Like it's like why, whether jumping into like ice water makes you feel better. Like it's how we know anything.

And so that was fun. That was fun to like talk to scientists and explain things. And I think cause I was so bad at it, it helps me explain because nothing's, it wasn't intuitive when I was starting out, you know? It would say complicated science things and I'd be like, I don't understand.

Please say it again. See that is such a perfect niche for you. It's like you are curious about all of it. You love it. Your job is then translating it into human. Yeah. It's a totally different skill to translate it to human. And that's kind of what you do.

That's right. And I think like, because I had these, like my parents who are both academics, funnily enough. So I guess that must have been another thing in the mix. They always telling me, like, if you don't understand something, just like ask more questions. Don't ever feel stupid for not understanding something.

It's, you know, if someone's trying to teach you something and you don't understand it, you just keep asking questions. And so I think that really helps. It's like, if a scientist is just using these complicated words, I mean, by now, I've been in the game for so long. Yeah.

I can speak the language. Yes. But when I was starting out, there was just a lot of, OK, so what was that? What do you mean? Yes. Any analogies you can help me out with? Yes.

So it's been fun to like marry the two worlds. Yeah. Now, your specialty is translating things to human and sort of sorting through all the different sort of scientific misconceptions. I think because the scientific language is so complex, it can be misunderstood so easily, which is why your voice is so important, but also so exciting for people because it's like, oh, now I get it.

Like now I get it. I understand because it's like, oh, now I get it. Like now I get it. I understand because it's like, there's always so many conflicting ideas. And ultimately, you know, I think science is relevant for everybody because it's like we all use it to figure out how to have a better life. It's so important.

But if you Google something, you're going to find 90 different results. Yes, there's so much garbage. And what's funny is like when I started Science Versus, the world of like bullshit online was just starting. I mean, I guess that's what I was seeing and I was like, oh, I should make a podcast where we're like looking at things in the zeitgeist and really examining them and like really, you know, reading the scientific papers because we don't want to be regurgitating more of

the misinformation. Like we're down there reading the scientific papers then translating them. But when I started Science Versus, I was like, we've got four seasons in us. You know, like once we tackle like, yes, climate change exists, you know, yes, vaccines, like, you know, are good for you. And we need to be taking them despite, you know, minor risks here and there. You know, once you hit the top, I was like, all right, all right, this show is gonna be done.

But the internet has just kept minting. Oh, shit. Like it's like, as if it was just coming for me. No, it's never ending. It's never, like more and more diets every year. There's fucking, there's keto. There was now like last season I did like seed oils. I was like, where does, like now we're not allowed

to eat seed oil. What, where did this come from? And I was like, thank you. It's amazing. The thing is is that humans love, I think humans love, and you've probably noticed this over the years, we like to find a bandaid. We wanna find a bandaid for things.

We wanna find an explanation. And honestly, I'm somebody who is somewhat, I'd like to say that I'm not, but I am somewhat, we all are susceptible to these, you know, big claims. Well, we want an answer. When something's wrong with our health, when we know we're not functioning in the way that we used to, like whether like our brain's feeling foggy or like tummy's not feeling right, we're like, what could it be? What could it be? And you know, going to doctors, like I'm all about the like healthcare system and go to

your doctor, but like they can be assholes and they cannot listen to you. Totally. And so at the same time as we're seeing, you know, this sort of rise of misinformation online, there's also a greater appreciation that like, yeah, you go to your doctor, if you don't have a GP that you like, they might just be like, it's all in your head. If you live with it, is it really that bad? Like, takes a medication that has nasty side effects. And so it doesn't surprise me that people are then going online, finding like influences, like people that they like giving them other solutions and then running with

that. So I totally get the situation that we're in, but it just does mean that I think a lot of vulnerable people who are searching for solutions, who don't have the doctor, the medical care that they need, I think they are getting trapped in this world where they're buying supplements they don't need, going on diets they don't need to go on like and that and so that's why it feels good to make the show to be like well look here's what might be going on here's what maybe you don't need to be buying this maybe jumping in ice cold water will be helpful you know yep so I get it so I think like as I've been making the show I've been way more empathetic to to all of us who would who are just you know I think maybe when I was starting, I came in from a real on high of like,

I'll read the science, it tells you what the answer is, but now I'm like, I get it, it's really, really hard out there. And so we're just trying to put good information out there. What do you think is the reason for so much misinformation? When I think about it, one reason could be like,

there's a company benefiting from misinformation possibly. Like that's maybe one source. Or a person. Or a person. Or a person. Do you think it's more nowadays, influencers and sort of uneducated individuals, or like, you know, individuals who lack the credential

to be spreading information, do you think it's those sort of people who kind of want to provide an answer to, you know, maybe build a following and so people will sort of trust them and like look to them for answers? Or do you think it's more like corporations that are interested in spreading misinformation or do you think it's a combination? Oh, interesting. Look, the ones that, like, that really piss me off, like, I don't, I don't know when we look at the big problem of misinformation online. Generally, I think it's individuals.

Corporations have always, we know capitalism exists. They're there to spread a message of propaganda. I feel like people know, people have in their head. If you see a shell ad for like, we're interested in renewables, everyone's head is like, fuck off now. Like, you know, everyone's like, I don't, it's like, okay. Yeah, yeah, thank you for your contribution to climate change.

Totally. Appreciate it. Like I understand the, like- We understand the language we like see through maybe a corporation. Exactly. But with individuals, that's where I see people really getting sucked in. And so, and you know, sometimes you have these like really,

I don't want to name any names, but you know, in the wellness influencer sector, there are these, there are some really big names who kind of use what I see is they use our mistrust of corporations. Yes. To then like twist things on their head. So a story that I hear over and over again is like, you can't trust big

pharma, you can't even trust science. They're all in it for the money. Instead, what you need are natural supplements. And guess who sells them? Me. And guess what? That's a code. And guess, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you're like, and you're like, they're like, follow the money, man. Follow the money. Like you can't trust Pharma. And it's like, I'll follow the money right to your damn pocket. And it's just this story. And I'm like, how are people getting sucked into this? But I know why it's this thing that sometimes science calls the guru effect.

Where you have these guru, they have this, which you've talked about on this show, this parasocial relationship. Where they feel like, oh, it's this like, which you've talked about on this show, this parasocial relationship. Where they feel like, you know, oh, it's my friend, I can trust them. And then all of a sudden you're buying these supplements when it's like, you're unproven. You are putting money right into their pockets.

And at the same time, shitting on science, I'm like, excuse me. Well, that's the thing that's so annoying about it, I think too, especially is the blatant and so obvious hypocrisy. It's like right there. It's like, babe, you're, you know, it's, it's, it's unbelievable, but I also,

it's such a perfect business model, despite it being evil. It's genius, cause it's the perfect manipulation because it's playing into like, well, I'm a small business and I'm, you know, and I'm an individual and I've healed my issues through this, you know, turmeric supplement. If you say like, oh, you know, turmeric supplement. Yeah.

If you say like, oh, you know, you can cure this, this and that using this, you know, supplement that obviously doesn't work. Yes. Like there's no science to show that it works. It's potentially very dangerous. Particularly if you're not saying things like, you need to make sure you take like traditional,

like conventional medicines too. Yeah. You know, you can, yeah. So that really pissed me off. And then the other thing that I see a lot of, cause you were sort of mentioning like, is it influences who maybe are uneducated? But actually I see a lot of people who have like MD,

wearing their scrubs out there on TikTok, talking bullshit. And I'm like, and that really pissed me off because they're clearly using their healthcare education, like whether it's their RNs or whatever it is, they're using that and they know they're using that to get people to think, oh, I can trust them. They've got their scrubs on. They probably came out from seeing a patient or something. And if you're wearing your scrubs or you're like a doctor, you need to be really careful about your facts.

And so often I'm like, because part of the show is like looking for like what's the internet saying about a particular thing. And I'll see these like doctors saying stuff and then we fact check it with experts in the field and I'm reading the papers. And I'm like, that's not that's not real. And so this is this is like what we're fighting against. I'm like, if you are about to go on a show, like this with an audience, take some responsibility, get your facts right. So let's play devil's advocate then. Love it.

We're all human, right? Including the experts, including, the people writing the most advanced, the most modern, the most accurate scientific papers. Yeah. Can we really trust anything for sure? In your opinion? No, great.

It's a great question. It's a great question. So here's my pitch for why I love science. I do too. Why I think we can trust science. So, so at its best, science is just testing all these theories we have, whatever it is. Like, will this skincare product reduce wrinkles? Will this, will Ketamine like cure depression?

You know, like you can say that or even you can have had an amazing experience or you and your friends can have had amazing experiences and you can tell people about it. But you'll never know like, oh, like does this actually work or was it, but you'll never know, like, oh, like, does this actually work? Or was it, you know, I took ketamine, I felt great for a month or whatever. Like, was it something else that happened that night? You know, were you actually moving to, like, was it starting to be a good place in your life? And then you felt great. Like, so the only way you could actually know, was it the ketamine that caused it and like, cause this benefit? Let's

stick with our ketamine example. Yeah like is to actually do a study where not only do you take like let's say a hundred people and give who have depression and give some of them ketamine you also need to give some of them a placebo because the placebo effect is so powerful. So powerful. It's so and like I know sometimes people hear that and they're like, oh, it's all in your head. It's like, but no, it should be something that we can all harness. Like it is wonderful that the placebo effect is amazing. It's amazing.

Like that we can cure ourselves with our minds to a certain extent for certain things, you know. Yes. But it does mean that every like, clinical trial worth its weight in anything has to have a placebo arm. Because if you tell someone like, hey, I got a great new drug for you, you want to try it? And like, all of a sudden they feel better. It's like, who knows if it was the placebo or ketamine? So science is the way that we can do that, that we can find that out. And then through other kinds of studies that we can actually test the mechanism,

how the hell Ketamine might be having these effects. But having said that, you can't trust a single study. And that's what we've learned. And that's, I think, what we keep getting caught up with. I don't like saying the media, because I am the media, but the media. We'll often present a single study and be sticking with the ketamine example and be like, ketamine now cures depression or whatever.

Cause there was one study that maybe gave people, you know, ketamine and then check them the next day. And was like, oh my God, their depression scores, which has happened. There have been studies like this where they get people with serious, nasty depression, you know, maybe having suicidal thoughts, really bad place, give them ketamine and a bunch of them the next day, they don't even have depression. There have been studies like that. If you report that, you're like, oh my gosh. Well, this is the cure.

This is the cure. Right. But you have to, and I understand that you're like, yada, yada, but just so people understand sort of how science works, then you just got to wait and see what's going to happen with the other studies. Right. You want to test it in more people with different kinds of depression. And ketamine is a perfect example. So now we have more data and we can see that it probably helps about 50% of the people who take it, and it probably affects on average last a couple of weeks and then many people

will go back to normal. So you see what I mean? So that's where I think people start to think like, can you trust science? Because you're like, wait, you just told me Ken, I mean, it was the cure. Now it's not the cure. Right. When really it's just like the progression of knowledge. And so on science verses, and I would just like encourage people as you're looking on

the internet at studies, you're like, is this just one study? Is this a body of research? Like, how sure can we be that this is going to hold up? And it doesn't mean that that first study was crap. It just means like, that's what they found once. Are they going to find it again? Yes. Yes.

See, I think it's also, it's so important for people to remember. We have to trust while also understanding that the, the, the research never ends. It never ends. That's right. Like we will never have this perfect book filled with all the answers. Like, I mean, maybe in like, what, 5000 years, if like whatever, if, if everything lasts that long, like, I don't know. It's like, I mean, maybe in like, what, 5,000 years, if whatever, if everything lasts that long, I don't know. It's like, I mean, maybe then, maybe then.

That's exactly, yeah, that's right. And I think it goes back to what you were saying about how we want a quick solution. And science is a process. It's a frustrating, long process. But it's still the best we got. And it's still way better than some looks like. Good, too.

Pretty amazing. It is actually amazing. Like I feel like a lot of us sort of, we're not grateful enough for the time that we live in. This is actually a phenomenal time to be alive where like medicine is so advanced. Oh my gosh, yeah. Like we're curing shit. Like, you know, it's like crazy hearing stories about different diseases that we're just wiping

everyone out. Yeah.. Like 100 years ago. And now it's no big deal. It's no big deal. Or there's a vaccine. No one even gets it anymore. And we take it for granted, but also when there are things that go wrong and there are things that like we think we understand and then we don't and then maybe some people. I don't know. We're all human and we're doing the best that we can. And I think at the end of the day, you know, yeah, there's the man who wants money and then there's, you know, even the individuals who want money. But I think ultimately we all want to be happy and healthy. We do. Yes.

Like I think that that is most of our goals. Yes. Yes. And I don't want to be like out here being like, you know, science is like, you know, like come down from heaven. You know, God was like, oh, is there are problems with science? And science does have biases. I mean, I was, I was listening back to our episode on the G-spot that we did,

which has like a very funny history. It feels, it feels kind of dated now, because anyone talking about the female J-Spot. I mean, I think people need to be talking about it. Let's talk about it. I actually don't know anything about the J-Spot, which is crazy, because I'm the type of person to be like, okay, find it to like a guy,

but then I'm like, I actually don't know what it is, or where it is. I also don't know if anyone would feel good if you found it, like I actually don't know. The story of how the J-Spot was born is wild. Wait, can you give us a brief detour and tell us about the G-Spot? Yeah, and then I'll come right back to how it fits into like science can be fun sometimes. Yes.

This episode is brought to you by Secret. Secret deodorant gives you 72 hours of clinically proven odor protection. How epic is that? And it's free of aluminum, parabens, dyes, talc, and baking soda. It's made with pH balancing minerals and crafted with skin conditioning oils. So whether you're going on a run or you're running late, do what life throws your way and smell like you didn't find secret at your nearest Walmart or shoppers drug Mart today There was this nurse Beverly Whipple who was doing who I interviewed still alive today and She oh gosh, what was this eight? Let's let's put it in the 80s

Uh-huh was doing this study in women who, when they orgasm, they peed a little. And in some cases, peed a lot and like needed like towels and this was very upsetting for them. And so she was, yeah. And so she's studying these women who at the time, you know, very taboo, very embarrassed about this. And so she started examining them,

which meant this is the time when video is gonna be helpful. I guess this is my video. Yes, yes, there you go, there you go, hit it. Yes. So she would take their vaginas and just kind of like insert her finger and then kind of go around like in a clockwise direction and be like, how does this feel?

How does this feel? How does this feel? And she kept finding that around the, if you imagine like your vaginas like a clock, like the 11 a.m. to one p.m. Okay, okay, yeah. Was like women would start smiling and get excited. I love it.

Right? Yeah. And so then she ends up writing a book about it. She goes on the Phil Donahue show and like we found archive from the film and it's so funny because it's like so like, you know but she's out there talking about like, you know the best way to do it is with a woman on top

and like missionary, she does something like missionary style just doesn't cut it. And I'm like, in the 80s. That's fucking amazing. And you hear Phil Donahue go like, oh, you know what they can't handle it. They're like, we've never talked like this before. Oh, that's amazing.

So she starts to, and I think she did this talk, once it starts blowing up, maybe before she wrote the book, she did this talk. And people were like, you have to name this thing. And at one point it was going to be called the Whipple Tickle because her name is Beverly Whipple. But then they went for the G-Spot because G-Star is like Dr. Grafenberg was like another doctor who maybe found this spot. Anyway, so it goes on the field

down here, it blows up. There's all these articles, you know, G-Spot, G-Spot, oh my God, can you find it? Let's find it. But in the meantime, no one knew what was it? Is it nerves? Is it a gland? Like is it what's going on there? And it took until the 90s, like 1998, I think it was. An Australian urologist, Helen O'Connell, was on a totally different track. She was reading, this is where we get back to science can be fucked sometimes. She wasn't really aware of all this G-spot talk at all.

She was on, she was like studying anatomy. She wasn't really aware of all this G-spot talk at all. She was on, she was like studying anatomy, she's like a uni student, and her anatomy textbook basically didn't have the clitoris in it. No, like what? I asked her like, like it was a blank spot there and she said basically a blank spot. What? So she's like using this anatomy textbook for four years. You know, it's got a perfectly formed penis in there. Oh yeah. Without it, of course. There's no doubt. There's like too much information about the penis in it. Yeah, there's like, but nothing on the clitoris. Nothing. What? And she's getting madder and madder and madder about this. And then one day she gets given this

book by a group of feminists in America. It was like a friend of hers was like, you want to see this book? And she was like, yeah, I wanna see this book. And it had these beautiful diagrams of like the vulva and the vagina. And these women had like tried to look at their vagina, but they had this line in it that was like, unfortunately we didn't have cadavers. So we couldn't like dissect

to see like what's going on in there. And Helena ConConnell's like, I have access to cadavers. I'm at a medical school. We got cadavers coming out of our ass. I do, yeah. So she starts a study in the 90s. Whoa.

One of the first scientific studies actually dissecting where is the clitoris, what's going on, what's going on in there. Because now I think it's fairly well known that like the tip that you see is like the tip of the iceberg, you know? It's this very large, you know, this is like something that's really good about this.

Like you guys know, we know this, right? I feel like even, you know, six years ago when we were looking at the episode, people were like, whoa, the clitoris is so big. But now we know. It's like big, it's got like a Bert Reynolds moustache kind of vibe coming down. It's big.

But she worked that out. In 1998, that paper was published. And it was only then where we could start being like, wait, so what's the G-spot to take it all back around? And she was like, I can't see anything whether in this like 11 to one position. But what I can't see anything in this 11 to 1 position, but what I can see is this huge clitoris. Yeah.

Wow, this thing is big. Oh, my God. No one's talking about it. So is that actually what it is, is that the clitoris just extends inside? Yes. So it's a piece of your... Right, because I feel like some people can't orgasm vaginally. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's probably, so it's, so now our understanding of the, of like the vagina and that, and the, that whole region and the clitoris is like that the, the clitoris, the vaginal wall, even the urethra, which is like where we pee out of, they all sort of interact in this very interesting way that like, that I don't know who uses terrible analogy in the podcast where we were like, like puppies dancing. Oh, cute.

I love that. That's great. And that is now like the vaginal urethral complex. Yeah. Which is probably what the G-spot was in some of these women. And so there is no spot, is bottom line. But like, why I think it reflects like that science can suck sometimes is like,

why wasn't the clitoris in that anatomy textbook? Yeah, like how did that get missed? How did that, and the thing is that in the 1900s, like, you know, Grey's Anatomy, of course. Yes, yes, so Grey's Anatomy textbook, it's an anatomy textbook before it was a TV show. In the 1900s they had the clitoris. Oh.

Late 1940s clitoris gone. Why? I don't know, we just have fucked, we just, our entire, our women's orgasms bigger. Is that true? Have you read into that? We did a whole episode on the orgasm gap.

Yeah. You know, this idea, like, so, if you ask like cis men, like how often do you orgasm when you have sex? 95% will say yes. You ask like women, do you want to have a guess? How many? Well, I can, let's use my own life. No, it's so mean. I'm so sorry to everyone. No, oh God, no. Oh, you're gonna say 40? I wanna go to 40.

I was gonna say 40. I was gonna say 40%. 65%. Okay, that's good. Yeah, you wanna guess. Oh, so that's all right. That's straight women. Mm.

Do you wanna guess gay women? Oh, it must be way higher. I mean, I feel like that would be like 95. Yeah, it's 89%. 89%. Very good. Yeah, it's 89, 89%. Very good. Yeah, yeah. So that tells us that this is largely not a biological thing.

It's not like it's that much harder to get us off. This is a cultural thing mostly. Do you think it is harder for women to orgasm? Like actually? Yeah, so we looked into the science of this. Like why? Get into it. Yeah, what is this orgasm?

What's causing it? Is the female orgasm like such a big mystery? That was our exact question. And there's been these phenomenal studies. I love our sex episodes. There's so much fun. So fun. Right?

Because you can really dive deep. Yes. Because we're just talking science, man. Like, you know. But it's like also no one's talking about it in a day to day as much because it is sort of even still sometimes a taboo. A little taboo, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's so fun, I love it. Yeah, so they, so for example, they've gotten people to go into MRIs and orgasm and like either masturbating or getting their partners. But MRIs just is like fun details. Have you ever had one? An MRI, yes. Yeah, so it's loud.

Yes. Yes. It's a very weird experience. It's a weird experience. It'd be really hard to orgasm it there. So hard? Are you kidding me? Not at all.

And also, it's like, do you get any stimulation? You're in there alone with a loud sound. Good luck using your imagination. I know they're not playing a video for you. It's like, you really like on your own. That's so sad. It's so hard. It's so hard.

And not only that, if I'm in on an MRI, you know how you have to be really still? Yeah. Movement is the killer of an MRI. You need the image to be crystal clear. And so researchers had to design a helmet, which she called the researcher, Dr. Nan Wise. She called it the the Hannibal Lecter

Happy Helmet because it ended up covering the face just so they wouldn't move. So they had to wear this helmet. Then they had to sort themselves out or they had a partner do it, but because it was so loud, the scientists had to be relaying information. She described it as a deranged flight host. Stop, stop. Where she was like, she was like, your partner has started orgasming now. Really?

And they're like, your partner has stopped orgasming now. Ew! So through studies like this, researchers have discovered that the orgasm is a big brain event. There's a lot going on in your brain, which is how it feels, right? So it's not that surprising.

And from what we can tell, the differences between the male and female brain under orgasm, very similar, very similar. There's other similarities going on when you look at the nerves around the vagina versus the penis. So the biology doesn't seem to be able to explain the huge differences. One researcher did suggest that because the penis is external, there's more to play with,

I guess, so you could see, is this a sensitive area? Is this a sensitive area? And you can do that with that with the vagina obviously it's just a little more difficult It is and you know when she was saying she studies people in the lab and she's like you know sometimes we we are like Poking around the vagina and you know will be like is this nice is this nice? Yeah, and they just like can't find it It's kind of like a mess sometimes in there. And even for me, even with my own vagina, I'm like it's a mess. Because I'm like, it's not. A beautiful mess.

A beautiful mess, I'm obsessed with it. But I'm happy to have it. Like literally she's awesome, I love her, but she's just. But even sometimes with me, I had to learn, even when it's your own vagina, it's not like you know where your clit is immediately. Oh, it's not. But if you learn that later in life.

Whereas like if you have a penis, you can see the penis. It's right there. There's no like, oh, wait, where is it? There's no discovery. Yeah, that's right. You know, some women I know have like maybe a smaller clitoris. So like you have to like, and it might be like underfold. So you have to like actually move things around to then see it.

Like it's very interesting. But I mean... Yeah. So that tells us that... So maybe there's a little bit of biology there. But the fact that gay women can orgasm almost 90% of the time tells us that a huge chunk of this orgasm gap is social. It's social.

And actually surveys have been done of like college kids, college men, and they know where the clitoris is. They're clearly just not finding it. They don't care. You know, like, or some men, some men, like, this is social. Oh no, definitely. And there's surveys that have been done of women

that like we prioritize male orgasm. That's when sex ends. And it's really sad that like that hasn't changed, right? That hasn't changed. No, it has not. Yeah, and that starts like, I remember when I was in high school, I was like the gender gap on many things.

I was like, we're so close to getting that, right? You know, like once we get the wages sorted, equality's like, you know, we got it, we got this. Then we're both gonna come every time and it's gonna be fucking awesome. And now I'm like, no, a quality is like in, you know, we got it. We got this. Then we're both going to come every time. Exactly. It's going to be fucking awesome. And now I'm like, no, like, no, like it's still the primacy of the penis. Yep.

It's still sex is done when they come. Yep. It's like, and, and, and it's all the, and you can see it in the data that like women will say like, I prioritize them coming. I know. I know. Yeah. Like I've done that. Because they should be like, you know, okay,

now it's your turn. Yeah. That's how it should work. But it's also like, I think a lot of guys too are like scared to ask. Like they're scared. Well, that's just a sex thing anyway. But like people are, it's a very hard conversation

to have to be like, you know, you're not doing it. Yeah. Like it's not working. Yeah. Like it ruins the like, it doesn't need to ruin it. It could just be like, let's try it this way. It could be a fun thing. Totally.

It doesn't need to be like your ragging on them or anything. It could just be like, hey, let's try this. Let's try that. Exactly. I touch myself while we're doing this. Like, this could be... Yeah, it doesn't need to be negative. I think one day, I think we be alive when when the stats go up and the

girlies are having their orgasms just as much and it's all maybe we'll be alive for that. That would be such a treat. That would be great. I really thought you know how like there was like big dick energy a couple of years ago. Yes. What about like generous love energy? What about what about excited clit energy, you know what I mean like what about um well attended to clitoris energy The celebrities in our lives Coddy babe well-attended clitoris energy. Yeah, I like you can tell no There's been phases of my life if you scroll through my Instagram You can tell when my clitoris was not well attended you can see that shit my eyes Okay, and then all of a sudden it's like one day. There's a little glisten back

Okay, so we're starting that as a hashtag you guys all take that and run with it um, oh that's so good We just unintentionally answered one of my first questions, which was, let's talk about the orgasm, because that's one of the things that you've dug into. You dug into so many things. We need to dig into, there's a few things we need to dig into that I know that you're like, you've done the dirty work, you've done the research,

you've, whatever. And one of them is very relevant to me, because I was addicted for many years, vaping. research, you've, whatever. And one of them is very relevant to me because I was addicted for many years vaping. Let's have the vaping conversation because- How is your journey going? Great. What happened to me was I like made an episode, a podcast episode being like, I'm quitting.

Yes. Because I woke up one day and I was like, I'm quitting. I quit, then I went through a rough patch and I was like, there's no fucking way. Because nicotine withdrawals are tough. And it was like, I just can't, I need this. This is my pacifier, I need this back. So I started again.

Then a month ago, I quit again. And I've gone a month. But my goal was, okay, I'm gonna quit by the time I'm like 25. Cause you ultimately have to quit when you get pregnant, right? So it's like, I don't wanna deal with pregnancy and having to quit nicotine, which is so emotional.

Which is already when you get to like cut down in your cafe, there's already a bunch of shit to do, right? No, too many stimulants that I love will have to exit my life. Alcohol as well, like I really can't handle all of this quitting. So to not have a glass of wine on a Friday, wow, that's rough. So anywho, tell me about, tell me everything about vaping because I'll tell you what my, I always had excuses.

Because when you're addicted to something, you always have excuses. You're like, no, like, you know, it's, you know, it's not even like, there's no tar with the vape. There's no tar. There's nothing. Combustible, there's nothing burning. There's nothing burning. You know, I remember somebody told me once, actually I think it was like a guy I dated for like a month.

He was telling me, he's super addicted to the vape too. And he's like, no, no, no, it's totally fine. It's like the vegetable glycerin, the base of it, is he says something about it being like water soluble, so it won't stick. It's vegan, it's okay. Yeah, he's like, it's actually really organic, so it's like chia seed vibes, so it's totally fine.

It's like, it's super kale energy, it's super airwond coated. They'll start selling it at airwonds soon. It's organic bears, I like to. Yeah, but also, oh my god, wait, this is, I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm so excited, because he was like basically saying like, oh, so it's safe, like it won't stick to anything, you just exhale it, it's fine.

And then also something that a conclusion I came to was, hold on a minute, there are all these vapes that are supposed to help you quit nicotine and they're supposed to be completely safe, but they're quite literally the exact same ingredients. The only difference is there's no nicotine. And it's like, I get that that then helps you sort of like, if your oral fixation is what you're the most sort of drawn to

more than even the nicotine itself. See, for me, it was always nicotine as a stimulant. Like, I think it helps me. But they're marketing these alternative vapes with no nicotine as being a healthy alternative. And it's like, this is still you inhaling something. So what's the difference there? And there's flavors in volunteer.

And I actually tried one of those ones, and I will not say the name. It made my lungs feel very weird. Oh, interesting. And I did not, like it made me feel like heavy. And I was like, this I don't like. And I immediately stopped. Because I was like, I do not like this.

But I was like, anyway, so all of this rambling to say. What's going on? What's going on with the vein? Okay, like, cause honestly, if somebody were to tell me, it's actually totally fine. I'd be like, amazing, I'm gonna fucking vein then. Like I would literally, if someone told me right now, okay, it's totally safe.

I'd be like, peace out. I would get, I would literally wait. I would have my babies so that, you know, cause I was whatever. And then I would then vape for the remainder of my life. So please tell me everything. Yeah. Okay. Unfortunately, I'm not going to tell you that they're totally safe.

But the, but I think a lot of the confusion out there is because the vast majority of data out there shows that vaping is safer than smoking. But that is because smoking cigarettes is so bad. I feel like we sort of missed out on how bad it was because already by the time we were sort of coming into our own, like a lot, there'd been all these like ad campaigns of like how bad it is and you know, we've just sort of forgotten.

But one academic told me that like cigarette smoking, it's kind of like, you know, it's a bit of a cartoon example, but it's kind of the equivalent of like putting your mouth over like a car, like exhaust fumes and just being like, you know, like the amount of cancers that it caused, I think it's like one in three deaths from cancer in the US can be directly caused by smoking. Like, directly contributed to smoking. It's crazy how bad, like it's crazy that it's legal, but it's so bad for you. And so to say that something is safer than smoking, it's like saying, like, you know, like being, you know, smoking is being like hit by a truck and then like dragged for 10 miles. Yes. Yes.

Vaping is like being hit by a Jeep, you know, and you're not dragged, but like, so, so that's one thing. So I think like in the UK, for example, there's this big push to like use e-cigarettes to quit smoking because that is still considered safer. The vast majority of studies, although I will say like there was a study that came out recently that kind of just, otherwise, but I think going back to our point of like, if you look at the data, that's what it suggests. Okay, so given that, so if you're currently smoking cigarettes and want to wait a quit and think vaping might help you, I think the data suggests that's a good idea. But vaping compared to nothing, compared to air.

Beautiful, beautiful air. This is where the French is gonna get into trouble. So I need this, I need to hear this continue. Yeah. So for a long time, and I almost feel like it was probably like, you know, really in the last like 10 years or whatever. So first there was just like all this talk. It's safe.

It's safe. It's safe. And I feel like that's when a bunch of people started taking it. Yep. And then the data starts coming out. Even though there were always academics that were like, look, it's probably not great. Like you are still breathing crap into your lungs. Yeah. There's nothing, anytime you're inhaling academics that were like, look, it's probably not great. Like you are still breathing crap into your lungs. Yeah, there's nothing, anytime you're inhaling anything

that's not clean air, it's probably bad. Yes, yeah, exactly. And so we now, so for example, we talked to this researcher who had like interviewed something like 3,000 kids who were like, I don't know, kids, late teens and early 20s, and found that if you vaped, you were way more likely to have symptoms like coughing and wheezing.

Two thirds of the people in their sample had symptoms like that. And the researcher was like, this is not normal. Like a 19 year old wheezing, you know? That's not good. That's a bad vibe. That's a bad vibe. That's a bad vibe. That's not doing good things to your lungs.

And it's sort of, you know, you can deal with coughing, it's not great. Yeah. Wheezing, you know, but it's sort of thought that these problems that it's causing to your lungs are like the canary in the coal mine. If you keep vaping, it suggests that something's going on and your lungs are having trouble. And if you keep vaping, keep bringing that stuff in, it doesn't get better. And then we have data on the flavors, for example. So the weird thing with the flavors is that a lot of them have been approved for safety

for eating. So what's wild is that that's where most of the flavors come from. It's like the like cinema aldehyde is like the chemical they use for cinnamon babes, which I don't think is a very popular flavor. By the way, horrible flavor. Ew, who's smoking that? Y'all are weird for that. Okay, yeah, ew.

Exactly. So I'll tell you, I haven't smoked that one, so we're good. Continue. Exactly. Exactly. So I feel so bad for Zion, just that that one, so we're good. Continue? Exactly. Exactly. So I feel so bad for scientists that we finally worked out the cinnamon outside and then everyone's like, fuck that.

We don't even like that flavor. It's like, I like the melon one or the leaching one. Yeah, work out the ice stuff. So that's how they started getting the flavors there. Like, oh, we already know. Like, it gives whatever, this chemical gives like a cherry, like to your cherry ripe, so whatever. Like, what if you just inhaled it?

And no one had really done the studies for inhalation. They were just like, it's safe to eat. But we know that like our stomach has acid. Like our stomach evolved to eat weird potentially dangerous shit. Like you're eating berries and you're like, this wasn't great, but just like get it out. You'll be fine. But your lungs like weren't designed to shove. No.

They haven't evolved for that sort of industrial style clean. And we already have examples where stuff that has been safe to eat we know is not good for your lungs. And so the example scientists like to use is diacetal, which is a buttery flavor. It shouldn't be put in vapes because we know it's really harmful.

But it's put on popcorn. It gives like the buttery taste to popcorn. As far as we know, really safe, like very yummy. But then in a popcorn factory a couple of decades ago, this is how scientists were like desperate to like, do we know anything about its inhalation? So popcorn factory where they're making the diacals going into the popcorn, but there was an accident and a bunch of people inhaled a ton of it.

And a lot of them, their lungs just like fucked up. A couple of needed like lung transplants as a result. And that's like the end. It's called popcorn lung, which maybe you've heard of. And which sort of sounds like, oh, your lungs turning into popcorns, but it's actually from this popcorn factory. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Interesting. Okay, yeah. Yeah. And so that was like the first example where they're, where, you know, we know that diacetyl is bad for your lungs. And there have

been examples of people who have inhaled it in a diacetyl in vapes. And then it hasn't been good for their lungs. So, I mean, just generally, and then the propylene glycol, which is the stuff that makes it like fog that makes it like fog, that makes it like, it's like a little fog machine, it is actually the same chemical that's in theater smoke machines. Oh, God. The amount of years that I inhaled that is so bad! Okay, continue, continue. Tell me the truth.

Right, I mean, it's like, it's like, fascinating from like a chemical perspective that you're like, oh, that stage like fog machine. It's like, oh my God, I'm in like a fucking Halloween haunted house. Yes. My lungs are literally for years look like a Halloween haunted house. That is exactly. For better or for worse,

let me tell you I was having fun blowing my o's, but I was really like, but it can't be good. Yeah. Yeah. Or like you're at a club or whatever. They put the, yeah. Yeah, it's like a rave in my lungs. Yes. Okay, yeah. Yeah, that's right. you know? It's like a rave in my lungs. It was, okay, yeah.

Yeah, that's right. And there's evidence that's also not great for your lungs, you know, and they even have like studies from theater workers who have had to like, like inhale a ton of this stuff and things like that. So we know all these, they're not good. They're not good. And then there's also some upcoming research

into nicotine itself, whether that, because there's been a debate for a long time about whether nicotine is even that bad for you, because it's addicting and it's the reason, as you well know, that you wanna keep coming back. So in that way it's bad, because it's like bringing along the flavors. Being addicted to anything's not good, right?

Well, yeah, I mean, I guess it's a philosophical domain. That is, because see, it's funny you say that because that was something that I like did research on. I always would do research and like cherry pick the studies or things that I would look at, like to like allow me to continue vaping. Interesting. Yeah. Like I would literally cherry pick the article. It was no, I fully know what I was doing, but I would be like, I read one article

once that nicotine as a chemical, it's the same as caffeine. It might be a little bit more addicting, but when it comes to like, it's risks, I guess, it was equal. So there's these, so now there's this new, that was kind of how I had understood it as well. And then when we did this episode and dove in, that was like kind of for a long time.

And because it's so hard to study, because most of our nicotine research comes from smokers. And so you're like, how are you supposed to know what caused the damage? Like the nicotine in the tobacco or everything else that you're smoking. Exactly. Like when you burn the tobacco.

And so now they're doing research and it's really at its early stages. So what we've known for a while is that smokers have a high risk of getting depression. And for a long time, there was this question of like correlation causation, which is basically this question of like, what did the smoking cause the depression

with these people already likely to like become depressed? Or are depressive people less likely to care about their well being there for smoke? That was smoking to already help with the symptoms of depression, like it just like wasn't clear whether nicotine was... Then they started to see the same pattern with vapors. So vapors were more likely to get depression. Again, you have the same, like, what was going on.

So now, to answer that question, science often uses, like, rodent studies, basically. To try and find, like, a mechanism, like, how on earth could nicotine? Like, what do we know about nicotine in the brain or in the rat brain? How could it cause depression? Does that even make sense? Yeah. You know, this early research, and the problem is it's in rats, it's not in humans. But what they're finding is that like there are some areas in the brain like the reward

center that like makes things feel good, you know, when you smell a flower and you're like, that was nice. Nicotine does seem to be affecting the reward center in these rats. Yep. That makes sense. That makes sense. It makes sense. And so there is this question that maybe for some people, it's sort of like dampening your enjoyment is sort of the theory, which we know is a symptom of depression is that things that used to give you joy or that perhaps people other people don't, you're like whatever. Yep.

And so that's kind of where the research is at, which is like we're seeing this trend, we see it in the rats and we'll have to wait and see. But I don't want to oversell it that nicotine is going to cause everyone's depression because that's clearly not the case. But we're just seeing that pattern. And so it's just another reason I think if people want to reduce consumption. The few times I've quit insane depression, I'm a very anxious person anyway.

So I think anytime anything changes, my anxiety is just the first thing to react, right? But horrible anxiety, like the worst, that was really bad. Yeah, no, it was really bad and like mood swings and like all these issues. And then, you know, now I'm my nicotine consumption if you were to like look at how much I'm consuming now versus when I was using the baby.

It's much less. And I do feel much more emotionally stable. Great. Which is interesting. And my parents noticed that too. Like they're like, oh my God, when you're not, like I always get so mad at my mom cause she'd be like, I swear to God,

the vape makes you like a wreck. Like it makes you a wreck. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like I've been vaping for, since I was like 16, bitch. Me like being so mean to my mom. And it's like because I'm vaping. Is his mom around the baby? Because I'm vaping.

It's like I'm being rude to her because I'm like so like strong on the shit yeah I think it definitely made me or I noticed that sort of I don't know I think there is an emotional impact yeah overall the consensus is we don't actually know that much about vaping but we know that we shouldn't be doing it all the signs are pointing to if you cannot do it that's great yeah and The consensus is we don't actually know that much about vaping, but we know that we shouldn't be doing it. All the signs are pointing to if you cannot do it, that's great. Yeah. And the less that you do it, the better.

Right. Have you done anything about alcohol? Yeah. Is there any way? Don't do it. Is there any way to drink alcohol? Because I've seen so many contradicting things. Like, there's been the study,

a glass of red wine every night, it doesn't hurt. I've seen that, okay? But then I've also seen like, tequila with lemon, totally healthy. That's actually totally fine. And my mom was like, my mom texted me that once and was like, oh my God, see, this is what you order. So it's totally fine, tequila soda with lime or lemon, it's totally fine. And and was like, oh my God, see, this is what you order. So it's totally fine.

To kill a soda with lime or lemon, it's totally fine. And I was like, yay! Or like, you know, only on the weekends. It's like, if you only have it a few times a week, right? Like, if you save it for special occasions, it's totally fine. What are your thoughts on drinking? Yeah, so the alcohol episode was one

that like actually made me change my habits. And it made me change the way I drink. Yeah, it's actually kind of like a really interesting science story of like, I don't believe it's just an interesting story. Of why we thought alcohol was good for your heart. So basically researchers like did these studies where they got, it's like what if someone were like, how would you run a study to find out where the alcohol was good for your heart?

You're like, we get 10,000 people, whatever. We ask like, how much alcohol do you drink? And then you follow them for a bit of time and you see who's heart gets popped. Looks the best. Yeah, and look all looks the best. And what they kept finding is that like, the people who drank alcohol seemed to have better hearts

than people who drank no alcohol whatsoever. Interesting. And so they were like, this is amazing. I think maybe the first studies would have do with wine, but then later studies came out about all the alcohols and they were like, oh my gosh. And then they start telling the story, antioxidants, antioxidants must be good for your heart.

Now we have a mechanism, we're in. And then some researchers were like, wait a second, wait a second, like who are these people who aren't drinking any alcohol at all? And this was like pre the non-alcoholic era, you know, and you might think it would be, and I would have still thought like, not like maybe it's like my body is a temple, super healthy,

but it turned out that the group of people who weren't drinking any alcohol at all were actually people who were sick. And their doctors had said, you need to stop drinking alcohol. Right. And so then there was this big battle in science. Like maybe it's a little bit good for you, even if you... But now I think that the thinking is it's not really that good for your heart.

And it was just this like, this like, you know, science progresses, science progresses. And then, but what we do know is that it is a carcinogen and it does increase your risk of cancer. I didn't know it was a carcinogen. Yeah, and it's just crazy. I should have known that. The breakdown products of alcohol can like muck up your DNA

and like, and it cause, and that is what, because like when you get older, people you love start getting cancer. Yep. And, and that's what made me really cut down my drinking. I was like, cause we do so much to prevent cancer. Like, you know, like, I'll do exercise, I'll do this, I'll do that. And then I was like, but I was still drinking a ton.

Totally. And I'm like, oh, what am I doing? Like, I don't need to be drinking a ton. Yes, yeah. I'd also like, I mean, at least for me, it makes me anxious and depressed. Like it fucks with my brain. Like when I'm, you know.

You want to create like, create a video episode on hangovers? So what do you- That was on my list. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the most surprising like episode we've done. Yep.

Like what do you think is the cause of hangovers? My guess would be that your liver is processing. I have no idea, by the way. So this is so random. So like this is my guess. We did voxies on the street. Like voxmops and like every time the same answer. Really?

Not in popular bar. Dehydration. Oh! But that's- No, no, no, no, no, no. But that's what like, I think a lot of listeners, that's what I thought it was. Dehydration. That's the thinking.

That's what everyone thinks is that it's being dehydrated. You're being dehydrated. Yeah. Cause alcohol, you know, there's this story that alcohol is a diuretic and makes you pee and then you lose a lot of water and you become dehydrated. But actually anyone who has had a hangover known about, or thought they knew about this dehydration thing, like if you ever, I definitely have had like a terrible hangover and I'm like, before we did the study, and I'm like, I'm going to drink water, I'm going to drink water. And like I am peeing like water. Like it is like, like,

it's clearly my body is rehydrated. Yeah. And I still have a terrible hangover. So the current thinking is that it's actually caused when your body breaks down alcohol. It produces like talk like the breakdown products are kind of like little toxic, like just a little bit toxic. And it creates this inflammatory response because your body like has this immune system where it's like, what's all these toxins doing in my body? And the immune system comes,

like, and it starts to be like, get rid of all these toxins, creates inflammation. And that's what's thought to cause like the terrible like headaches, the real like hangover effects where you're just like, oh, like brain fog, terrible like headaches. It's like the real like hangover effects where you're just like, oh, like brain fog, stuff like that. It's inflammation. That makes complete sense. Okay, wait, this is completely,

this last topic that I need, because this is so me, I cannot, we cannot skip this one. Gossiping. I need the science on gossip. Is it, am I allowed, I'm such, gossiping. I need the science on gossip. Is it, am I allowed, I'm such a gossiper. I am, but I believe that it's healthy. Like that's my belief.

Because to an extent, I think that it's healthy when it's done responsibly. Like when it's not just like, you see his hat the other day, or like it's not just like, you see his hat the other day, or like it's not just mean and bitchy. It's when it's like for the sake of analysis, well, let's discuss gossip. Like I think a lot of people will say gossip is all bad.

You know, it's like that's a negative thing. There's nothing redeeming there. And then some people will be like, no, this is how we connect as human beings. We must, we should gossip all the time But I don't think that that's probably where the science lands like what? What's the what's the ruling on gossip? Oh, that's I mean that kind of is where the science lands So we know interesting. Okay, we know that gossip can be harmful, you know particularly in like high school middle school

We've all been there. It can be really nasty. You can ostracize. If you're the target of gossip, it can be seriously of mental health issues. There's also a lot of studies done in the workplace, which I hadn't thought of as a gossip mongry place, but of course it is. And studies that show that gossipy workplaces, people tend to be less creative, less happy, and we've all been there as well. Totally. And it's like stifling to be in a gossipy workplace. But then the positives. So interestingly, like there was this, there was really fun study that got people, the Spanish study that got people to, they were scanning their brains, I think it was an EEG, and gave them either

statements that were gossip or statements that were just like trivia. I think they started a sentence that was like, the highest mountain in Germany is blah. And then they said, how interested are you in this answer? And people would answer whatever, very interested, not interested at all. And then for the gossip ones, I think there was one that was like, who did Barack Obama have an affair with? Yes, totally. And people were like, you know, not interested. Like, I don't know.

That's not me. I'm not interested in that. Then he went back to them like a week later and was like, so do you remember what the highest mountain in Germany is? People tended to be like, mmm, no. And then like, do you remember the answer to the Obama question, which was Beyonce? Yes. Such a Beyonce? Yes. Such a stupid.

Yeah. Which was this huge rumor in Europe. Yeah, totally. And so we know that like, we remember this content. Also, when he looked back at the brain data, he could see that people's brains sort of lit up. They were, it's like the brains were giving them away. The brains were more excited about the gossip too. Even though people said like, I don't care about that.

Like I don't, so they're morally like, I don't care about that, but do you think they're like Googling it the second they're out of the MRI scan? Yeah, yeah. There is something about gossip that we love. And there is a bonding component to it. Without a doubt, like you meet new friends, you know,

who know your other, it's like a connector. Yep. You know, you can feel that love in the room when you got some great story about a friend. It may not be bitchy. Yeah. So there is like a bonding component. And so I think like where our episode landed and maybe it's where the sides landed is like, if you could gossip in a way that isn't going to hurt someone else.

Yes. If you could be a little careful with how you tell a story. Yes. You know, then you could get the benefits of gossiping. Yes! This is the best news! Yes, yes. And also, there was this fun study that I think tracked middle schoolers and that said that

if, um, if someone is saying really negative gossip, which really only happens in middle school, I feel like, when you grow up, you grow up, you were bad at those friends pretty quickly. But if the next person in line, say someone was like, oh my gosh, Jeremy's pants today look really stupid. And then the next person said, oh, I actually think the pants are cool. That was like the fizzle, like the gossip ended. You needed that second person to be like, oh yeah, how many stupid pants.

And then it was like wildfire. So you can be like the savior of the gossip. If someone's just saying something mean, if you like punch it down, it's like, oh, not a good story. That's true. So that's the study fact. So you could be the savior of the gossip.

Or you could not. I believe in like, I do believe though that for the, for the, for somebody who is like me, for example, who loves gossip, like I do. Although I'm so, so protected about it. Like I have like four people in my life, maybe five. That's just about asking what's the best bit of gossip. Yeah. It's like I like I am so good about, I'll share some gossip with you after I'll come up with

something, but it's like I never share it on the internet. A lot of people go on their podcast and they're like, let's gossip. It's like, no, don't do that. That's like the worst thing you could do for society. Okay, so, you know, it's like a handful of people only when I know that it will never get back to the person like And that's fine. And then also it's not all I but I have noticed that even though I'm somebody who's prone to gossip enjoys gossip loves gossip believes in gossip thinks it's crucial for society

I also know that You have to it can be negative even for the person who loves it and who wants to discuss it. If it's, if it's not done right, like you, You don't want to be like, It can't be all you do. Getting enjoyment off other people's pain as well. Like I don't think. It has to be fair. Yeah, that's, and that's like, that's like not a good side to the soul.

No. You're not really going to feel great after just, you got to, yeah. It has to the soul. No. I guess you're not really gonna feel great after just, you gotta, yeah. It has to be in good faith. Like you have to like, if you're gonna be shitting on someone, they have to have shit first. Like so it's like, you know what I'm saying? Like they need to have like done something genuinely bad.

You can't be that on a T-shirt. I know, that's, okay, that's so easy. You're gonna be shitting on someone. I'm gonna, now if you guys make anybody out there merch companies, I'm gonna be making that. So it'll be really extensive, but I'll make sure, just cause, yeah, but get ready. But I just remembered another fun fact from the episode,

which is that men gossip basically as much as women do. Whoa. Yeah, so they've done these studies where they like put microphones on people and then switch them like on and off. This is why we love science. We can objectively measure this stuff at different times. And they find the men do it too. Men do it too.

And the definition of gossip is it's a very loose one. It's just talking about someone when they're not there. Yep. So it's not necessarily mean. Yep. But men, women, we all do it. I refuse to date a guy who will not gossip with me. Like, I'm actually not kidding.

That is a deal breaker. Like, if there's... Because they're going to be annoying about it. No, I'm like, if I'm like, if I want to be like, oh, like this, you know, this girl was like so rude to me today and she did this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, wait, what was she wearing? Like I need a guy who- They gotta have fun with it. No, I need a guy who will meet me there. And it's true, there are, it's not as stereotypically, it's a woman thing, but if you allow everyone gossip. It's everyone, it's everyone.

It's really not a girl thing. No, it's not. I think maybe some of the studies show that sometimes women do mean a gossip on it, but everyone's talking about everyone else. Otherwise, what are you gonna talk about? Actually, what else is there to talk about? No, I'm not kidding. What else is there?

I think about that sometimes. Like, yeah, you can talk about art, you can talk about yourself, you can talk about music, you can talk about, you know, you can talk about philosophy, but when you, okay, but that's like, oh, okay, great. Now you have an hour used up.

What else is there? Now there's gossip. Yeah. Sorry, that's when the gossip comes in. Okay, so that's great. So now I know that. You can feel good about it. I can feel good about it.

Science improves the view of your gossip. Okay, so I can't vape, but I can have a glass of wine every once in a while and I can fucking gossip. Yeah. So life is good. And you know what? And...

And you can orgasm. I know, I was gonna say, and I can orgasm. Every fucking time. Every fucking time. I just, as long as, no, you just need, oh my God. Not that, and I should, there are other ways to enjoy sex

and being with each other. You don't know, not so much pressure on the orgasm. No, I'm sorry, but I- If they're doing it, you can do it. No, I've, as, like, you know, like there's a phase, I think, in every young woman's life where it's like, damn, it's like not happening, huh? Like you're like-

Yeah, look, I will say, like, yeah, it took, it took mid-20s before I was even horny. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Which I actually, you know, it was something, coming on the show, I was like,

oh, what is something that like, I think is an important message that we don't talk about enough. Yes. Because there's so much pressure, particularly in high school, maybe in college too, about like, oh, she's frigid. She's frigid. Oh, I was so frigid.

You know, but were you frigid or were you just not hor Oh, I was so frigid. You know, but yeah, were you frigid? Or were you just not horny? No, I wasn't. I wasn't. And also I I wasn't I don't think I was it was not possible for me because You can't mentally get there unless you feel safe, but I remember like sitting around When I lived in a share house in Sydney with amazing Three other women and we were sitting around I guess I would have a share house in Sydney with amazing three other women, and we were sitting around, and I guess I would have been in my mid-20s then. And they were all talking about the first time

they masturbated, and one of them was like, I never remember a time I didn't masturbate. Whoa! They were like, I kind of remember rubbing up against stuff when I was three years old. Like, I didn't even think about it as masturbate. Another one said when I was 13, that's when I was like, I was like going down in there and they turned to me

and I was like, I haven't done it. I so get it because I didn't until I, okay wait, no. For me, I came from, like my first orgasm was from a guy. Yeah. Like doing it for me. Yeah. like my first orgasm was from a guy. Yeah. Like doing it for me. Yeah. Like my first boyfriend. Yeah, me too.

And I was like, what? Yeah. And I never, I didn't even know it was crazy. Yeah, that's right. No one's like talking to you about it. No one's like giving you advice. And unlike with guys, it's not like right out there. So you have to have like an urge from within.

And I just like didn't have that. You don't know what you're missing. Yeah, until my mid-20s. And so like I really wish the conversation instead of it being like frigid or whatever or whatever fucking words they're using to like judge women and girls who don't want to have sex. It's just like, do you want sex right now?

You don't have to want sex right now. You know, like you're 13, you're 16, you're 19, maybe you're just not horny. Yes. And like there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. And so like, whatever, I was 25, I was like, fucking awesome. I know, I love that. I, I'm so of that. Like, it's because it's not, it's not even good when you're younger anyway. Like it's not that it's not. good when you're younger anyway. Like it's not that, it's not, okay so like for example,

it's always like, oh like have sex, like you know you wanna like have sex as soon as you can. This was like the belief when you're in high school or whatever it's like have sex now so that you can get good at it and then it, whatever. But it's like, you're so, no, that's just not how it works. If you're not feeling horny, you don't need to do anything. No.

Yeah. Oh my God, I could talk to you all day. You have to come on again. I would love that. This is so much fun. Because I'm not kidding, we could go down every, we described the service today. Yeah.

That was amazing. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you for coming. This is so much fun. The best ever. No, you actually have to come on again. I would love that. Okay, great.