Are You A Charlotte? - Actress, Singer, Social Media Creator Dylan Mulvaney joins Kristin to discuss S3 E18 "Cock-a-Doodle-Do"

Episode Date: March 9, 2026

In this conversation, they discuss what Sex and the City got right and what they mishandled.And Dylan reveals how this episode impacted her personal life... in a good way! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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including the astrology of the current grid, the story of the sports most consequential driver strike, and plenty of other mishaps, scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent, dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Chetty, host of the On Purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Hillary Duff,

singer, actress, and multi-platinum artist. You desire in family like this picture, and that's not reality. My sister and I don't speak. definitely a very painful part of my life. And I hope it's not forever, but it's for right now. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Joe Interesting, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear

friend, Krista Williams. It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns. The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves. So I'm like delusionally proud of my chart. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? You guys, it's super exciting day. This is a guest I've wanted on since the very beginning.

Dylan Mulvaney is here with us and not only that, she brought her friend Lily. My best friend in the world. Which if you've ever listened to anything Dylan talks about, Lily is part of the story. We love that she's here and we love that Dylan's here. Oh my God. Okay. Let's talk about when you first announced this podcast, I have never texted my publicist faster in my life. And I don't really ask for things normally, but I said if there's any world, because I didn't know if the structure was going to be, if you were going to have guests.

And I was like, this is my cup of tea. And I probably have like four to five regular podcasts. I've listened to every episode of this one so far. But I just knew that this would be my dream podcast to be on. It's the best day ever. I'm so glad. I'm so glad that you feel that way. And we feel that way about you.

And you have been like one of the people, since I've been doing this podcast, I'm more aware of people who talk about the show and or Charlotte in a way that's interesting to me. Especially younger people, you know, where I'm like, oh, they can. get it. Yes. And that's how I feel about you. I thank you. I think that's what's so cool about social media is like as dark as it can be. And I was just listening to Benny Drama on your show, you know, talking about the hate comments and all of that. I think like connecting to women like you on there and getting to feel that support online has made my journey so worth it these past few years. And I think now getting to bring my story to, you know, different audiences other than just

social media has been so lovely. I'm so glad. But I think Charlotte, ever since I was a kid, I grew up in my stepdad's house who he's like a hunter and he has like 60 dead animals on the wall. And I would sit in the back bedroom and watch, he had HBO. And I was like the one really good part about the house. Totally. And I would, real sex would be on and be like, oh my God. what is this? And then I would watch sex in the city. And I remember, like, even as a little kid, like, your character was the one that I always was drawn to the most. That's amazing. So when you see a little kid, like, how old? Well, funny enough, the episode we're talking about came out in 2000. That was the year that I came out to my mom as a girl as a four-year-olds at the time.

So, but we, that, when I was watching it at my stepdad's house, probably around like, I was probably eight or nine around there. So maybe those were reruns by that point for 2005. But I was, I grew up fast. I can tell. Yeah. So wait, when did the real sex become part of it?

Because that show was a lot. All right? And I don't think the writing was so great on that one. No. And but it was a very strange show. And when we started our show that people thought that we were that. Oh, yes, yes. Before we aired.

And I was like, no, no, no. We're like a regular, you know, scripted television show. I grew up, you know, desperate housewives when I was way too young for that. Sure. Sure. Wow. And it was like me and my mom's treat. She'd be like, oh, you know, let me stay up and watch the... Kind of sweet. I know that it's a way to we bond.

And we also, Glee was one of those that we loved together, which is a little more PG. Well, there was some racy stuff. That's true. Smash. I love to smash. Wow. Which I feel like a lot of this episode's going to be me just trying to get you to do Broadway. You know, and I need Kristen in a musical. I'm done Broadway.

but you don't need me singing Dylan. I need it. I don't think so. Let's, what would be your, if you were going to be in a musical, what role? I don't even know enough. You tell me, you cast me. Oh, you're more knowledgeable. Oh, gosh.

Okay, okay. Let me, let's take the episode. Should I be that lady with the bell in the, what's that one? She's like a missionary or whatever. She's like raising money. Cynthia almost did this on Broadway, but then, um, the lady from Gilmore Girls did it instead. Oh. Thank you so much, Heather Graham.

Oh, wait. From Guys and Dolls, ladies? Yes. Yes. Oh, that would be a cute role for you. Would it? I don't know. Oh, you might be a cute Adelaide in that, actually. Little blonde wig.

Never say never. Never say never. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. The thing about Broadway, because I have done Broadway, just not a musical. Okay.

It's hard. The best man. Yep. With James Roll Jones. Angela Lansbury. Icons of the theater. John Stamos. Oh, he's back on stage now.

Is he? Did you see the Hollywood Bowl when he went in for Josh Gad? I was so stressed for him when I saw that he was going to go in for Josh Gad. He did not seem stressed. I mean, he is incredible on stage and very confident. He brought it. I'm so glad to hear that because I was like, he has to perform in front of Sondheim. If someone called you the day of and said, will you fill in for a musical tonight, you would not do it.

If it was for one night, I would do it. Okay. And I would give it my all. Everyone, take note of that. She's a male. I mean, it might work. It might not work, but I would try it. Okay.

If it were that kind of emergency, I could rise to that. But I don't know about, like, me going through regular rehearsals. I feel like I would lose my voice. No. I'm not a singer. No, eight times a week. No, eight times a week is very hard, as you know. Yeah.

Yes. I just did eight shows a week. Yes, you just came from your own one-woman show, which is so amazing. I'm sorry, I missed it. Oh, no, it's okay. It was called the least problematic woman in the world. We're going to come back in next year. And we're hoping to come to a few cities. But I think that title is so funny of just kind of playing into what you know to be problematic about yourself, but then also still being in pursuit of being a people person and a pleaser and just trying to make everyone like you. And I think that's been so much of my journey these past few years is like being. on such a large scale and having a magnifying glass on your life and your identity and your gender and trying to not, you know, get brought down by all the negativity. I can only imagine. Oh my gosh. It felt really good to get up there and tell my story the way that

I wanted to tell it because I grew up, you know, doing theater my whole life, singing, dancing, acting. And I think to go from making these social media videos, then to, you know, writing my book, paper doll, to then getting back to the sort of the, sort of the, you know, type of art that I grew up doing and that I loved more than anything was the biggest gift. It's amazing. It's amazing the way that you have been able to, you know, kind of take the reins of telling your own story in different ways that different people can come to and relate to it. Yeah, but I think powerful. Thank you. I feel like humor has always been my way in because and with sex in the city, I think so much of it is talking about tricky subjects but trying to find the funny

in them. Right. And for me, that was when I was starting my train. transition, I was like, okay, how can I make people laugh and relate to me and not feel like I'm some monster or some boogeyman? And so I found that through comedy. And now I think getting to be up on stage. And what I think is so fun about theater is you can kind of get away with a little bit more because people, you know, aren't hopefully filming it unless, you know, they're doing it behind your back. Right. But I felt safer in there than having everything taken out of context online or, you know, clicked. And it's kind of a pure experience theater. And it's so crazy because I think AI is changing the landscape so much.

But hopefully theater won't go away because we'll always miss that. It can't go away. No. It can't go away. Because we need you for your one night at the Hollywood Bowl. I think humanity needs theater, you know, for all time, right? Like even if official Broadway went away, right, we would still find a way to be telling stories in person. Totally.

Yes, because it's necessary. Dancing on the coffee table in the living room. Yeah. whatever it is, whatever it takes. All right. So I 100% respect and believe. And I love, like for you and Benny, Mary Beth came on the show.

Oh, I know. Addiction to her. A dream. But I also feel like for me, the thing that's inspiring about all of you guys in your own different ways are that you have made your own path, all of you. Thank you.

And it is so amazing and interesting from someone's been, you know, we've been doing Sex and City since 19, 98, right? And or whatever version of it, right? And I was trying to act, you know, for a long time before that. And it was a different, different world that we started in. And it's a different world now. And sometimes it's, you know, a terrifying world in so many ways and things are changing and AI and companies are consolidating. How to get in the door. Yes. And you guys have done it. And I'm just so inspired by you all. Thank you. But I think that's what's so interesting is it still feels like we're caught between this like old guard and the new. You are. You are. And in trying to, you know, take yourself out of boxes. Because even once I blew up on TikTok, it was like, oh, wait, I've been acting, you know, my whole life. Right. People were like, no, you're an influencer.

Right. And so you're constantly having to change that narrative about yourself. You're having to be aware of what they're labeling you as so that you can say, no, that's not actually right. But then I think what's fun about planting the seeds is like, okay, if they don't want to think that I'm going to make this kind of video to show them I can sing or I'm going to show. I'm going to show this so that I can write. And then slowly it's like I'm still in that process right now. But I always tell myself, like I think about the women like Oprah or Audrey Hepburn, anyone that I've looked up to as like they'd probably be making TikToks right now if they were trying

to get their start. I would like to think that. I think they would do whatever they had to do, right? And that might be different things. Like, you know, maybe they would make an indie film and self-distribute or, you know, like there's just so many different options. Was there ever part of you when you were young trying to find your way up? like that you were making your own thing, or were you always?

No, because we just had no, we had no one even remotely. Well, you know, we would do, I did two things. Number one, I really thought for a while, I mean, I waitress and I did all the, that's what you were told, like you're supposed to be an actress waitress until you can, you know, make enough money to just be an actress. And back in the olden days, you could make money doing commercials. And that's what I did first in New York, which was great because you'd get checks for years. Like going to the mailbox was so exciting because you didn't know, right?

But this is not true anymore necessarily in the same way. Now that's an influencer, right? That person would be an influencer. So for me, I started doing yoga as a way to like keep my sanity. So I went to yoga every day to the only one yoga works that existed in Santa Monica on Montana. I basically lived there. I went every day, every morning. And that was just my mental health thing.

And then at one point they said, oh, Kristen, you should get your certificate and teach. And I was like, okay. And so I did. And I thought, you know, universe, I'm going to ask you, you know, what should I be doing? If this is what I should be doing, I need a sign in the next six months because my parents really would like me to do something practical, right? And not just yoga teaching. If not, if it wasn't acting. No, yoga teaching, they'd be happy.

Oh, okay. That would have been better for them. I went to yoga school too. No way. Yes. I, um, my, uh, my dad let me go during, it was junior year of college. And, um, I had a kind of a bad breakup situation. and I was like, well, I need to, but I'm one of those people that I hadn't taken yoga before.

I just decided to teach it. I think I, I'm the type of person where I'm like, well, why would I just try it? Why shouldn't I? Like, they say if you teach you, then you know how to do it. I love it. That's funny. So did you end up getting the certificate? I did get the certificate, but then also within that six months I got Melrose Place. Oh, well?

So I was like, okay. Didn't get to do that much with it, did you? No, I didn't. Though I did, my friend and I started a little yoga studio in this karate studio. during the day. So they would teach karate at night and we would teach yoga to like unemployed actors, our friends basically during the day. It was fun. But then I was like, I'm so sorry. I don't have it. I can't. I got to go work. I know. But she's she's not teaching, but she's still doing much more than me. But I need to be doing it. But anyway, that was my one moment. I'd love to go to yoga. I just don't want to do any of the

workout ones. You know where they do the weights or the yelling. No. No. I want to do the nidra where you just lay down on the floor the whole time. Well, you have to do something to get to that. But I understand. I'm not going to lift Wait, no, no, I'm sorry, what is that? No, yeah, sorry. Okay, back on track. I have the worst ADHD. I know.

I listen to you and Sophia Bush. I was like, oh, I love them. I, apparently I have ADHD. I've learned this since I started the podcast. Oh, you've been told in the comments. Thank you comments. Yes, I have been told. But, so wait, I'm, you guys are amazing.

You create your own world and stories and you are able to, to, you know, put yourself out into the world through that, which I find so. impressive and inspiring. So for us, here we are back in the olden days, trying to do sex in the city, you know, it was unusual, as you know, and we were like foraging our own way ahead of its time. In a way, yes, yes, yes. And luckily, I mean, at the beginning, we thought that it wouldn't be that successful, that we'd just be a little niche, you know, and that we would love it. Like, we would feel passionate about it and maybe we'd find some other people in a small group

who might also feel passionate. We never expected, you know, what has happened. So that's part of the reason I wanted to do the podcast because it is interesting to look back on the things that we did well. You know, the things that are still resonating and ringing true and that are thought provoking now that you see the younger generation binding on, you know, Netflix. Yes. Well, and we're going through some of the same shit. Weirdly, yeah. It's still happening. Right?

Like, some of it you wouldn't have thought and some of it you would totally have thought. You know what I'm saying? Like I find it interesting. But then for this particular episode, which I haven't said yet. we are... We're diving in. We're diving into an episode called Gokadoodle-Doo. It aired on October 15th, 2000.

It's interesting that we were on in October because we used to start in June, but I think this particular season, we made like 20-something episodes. We made so many episodes. At 18, I think. Really? Thank you. Thank you for knowing. So this is what I want to say first about you being here to rewatch this with me.

We talked about it just briefly when you came in. I'm so appreciative. Thank you. Because when I look back on this episode, I'm just cringing a million cringes. I don't even know how to put it. I was, yeah, I didn't really remember all this. Like, I vaguely remember it. And I do remember that the meatpacking district as an actual neighborhood in New York has gone through a lot.

Like, I remember when you would drive through there and you would just smell the meat and see the cow bodies hanging there. You know, it was like a very, very different experience than now, which is like a very high-end shopping. Oh, I just all I know, it's like I would go to Sugar Factory that, you know, restaurant that serves the goblets of alcohol and I leave with like the craziest hangover ever. But so I didn't, we have a different version. But I didn't do that version. Okay. But now it's like just like Selma Cartney. You know, it's like boosy, boosy. Very boogie, boozy. And tourists are just like clopping around on the cobblestones. It's crazy. But that's where Samantha was living during this episode.

Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than no grip. A new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman. as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F-1, including the astrology of the current grid. Lewis Hamilton, Capricorn Sun, Cancer Moon. Wouldn't you know it? Michael Schumacher is also a Capricorn Sun, Cancer Moon. The story of the sports most consequential driver strike.

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So Samantha gets her new apartment that apparently she's renting, because then she goes and at one point shout to the rent, which is interesting. I was like, why is Samantha renting? It's so interesting, but whatever. I mean, I have weird thoughts go through my head sometimes when I watch the old. And you have highlights in it, kind of. Oh, my highlights are like a terrible mess. It's cute that you noticed like, one time my hair's like wavy, like if I just got out of the shower or something. It's still looks so good.

Do you think? Yes. I'm like, ooh. Well, I watched the whole season three just the past few weeks and it just, I said her hair, her hair. Like I was, I was kidding. Yeah, because it's just like they need to bring that to the IOTC workshops for hair. It's just pictures of you. That's so sweet.

I did have amazing hair people over the time. And I'm not sure. I need to look up more closely who's doing it at what point, do you know what? Because we did go through many, many people because it was such a hard schedule. But we're off. We're off. Let's talk about the episode. Cockadoodle do.

Cockadoodle do. It is directed by Ellen Coulter, who's a lovely, lovely human being. And written by Cindy Shupak, also a lovely human being who's come on the show. I mean, I wonder if we ask Cindy now, what she has to say? She has lived a lot of life since then. She married a man who turned out to be gay. She wrote a book about it.

It's been very interesting, very interesting. Cindy's had a very interesting life. And I remember at the time that I always felt like she wrote the monologues when Charlotte would talk about. Like, I've got to get married. I'm going to get this book. And this book is going to tell me everything to do. You know, and the girls were just like roll their eyes. Like that was Cindy's voice in a lot of ways.

So when she did marry this guy, we were like, Okay, he wrote a white horse at the wedding and stuff. It was like a whole thing. Is it during the show? No, it was right after. It was right after. And we were like, well, Cindy got what she wanted, but not really. I don't know.

I think I'd like to marry a gay man, maybe. I mean, I think it wasn't enough for her, but I do think they're friends. You know, it worked out in some ways. Lavender marriage gone right. I don't know if she would say that. Sure. I think she was disappointed, but I know what you're saying. Right.

I mean, I think if you'd known maybe it could have been better. Going into it. Right. But I don't think she would. I don't think he did. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, we're all finding ourselves. Exactly, exactly.

And that's a real thing. Yes. It's a real thing. So for me, I am definitely struggling with some of these episodes where we are off, right? Because we really thought of ourselves at the time as being very progressive and inclusive and whatnot. And I think for the year 2000, I guess we were doing the best we could, but it really fell short sometimes. Well, you know, I think the way that I have watched this. episode and want to approach it on the pod is that as I've made all this content about,

you know, trans people and trans is a large theme of this episode is that I've always just spoke from my personal experience. I've never spoke on behalf of the community. I especially can't speak on behalf of the black trans community, which, you know, is an integral part of the episode. Yeah. And and so I think that what I will say is that year 2000 was the year that I came out to my mom as a girl and I said, God made a mistake and put a girl into a boy's body. And I think there were no resources. There was nothing to go off of for her. And also, that also reflects this episode of there was, I think, an idea of transness that was being pushed in the media through like Silence of the Lambs or Law and Order SVU. It felt like the only people you saw

on TV we're sex workers. And so I think for me, the fact that we both cringe at this now 25 years later is the way we should be feeling. And it's scary that there are some people in this world and country right now that might watch it and not think it's problematic at all. But I think, you know, what we were talking a little bit about before is the fact that now we've gotten to watch in just like that where there are some more positive, actually quite a few in this new series of showing the same group of people getting to tell a community story in a completely

different, more positive way. So that feels like there's some rectification to the situation. And we definitely wanted that. You know, we did definitely want that. Yeah. Because I think also in these years that we're in, which I guess do we start and just like that in 2021, I want to say, you know, things were changing. rapidly then, but I feel like we, it's like we have a wave of like positive growth and then

backwards or like some people are going in a positive way and then everyone else is like, no, no, no, we will stay in the back backwards way, whatever, which is super confusing to me and I'm sure must be very confusing to you. What do you make of that part? I think that, um, wait, what is the question? Like the, like it seems like we make strides. We do, but then we, it's like we take a step forward than two steps back, but we are eventually, you know, moving in the right direction. We're going the right I find it interesting too because I don't think this episode was written with the intention of like a positive light on the trans community. I don't think the goal was like, we need to give some representation at all. But I do think there's so many people who are trying to make good strides now don't always nail it, but at least they're trying.

And I think better to get a little messy if the intentions are right than to not at all because a lot of people are really scared. but I had a situation recently where a really amazing writer brought me a project that he was like, I wrote this thinking about you. And I couldn't, this person, someone I've always wanted to work with. I couldn't end up doing the project because of something else. But then when I read it, it was like very kind of wrong sort of transition topics. But what I thought was, you know, and I sent him a note kind of with a few little touches of, of what I was picking up on.

But it was that he was so excited to, you know, be like, look, I wrote a trans character. And that's why I do think we have to have people of the experience in the room to, to help create these stories. Yes. But I think seeing someone like this, this man who's of an older generation really try is all that at least me as someone up and coming, hoping to, you know, break through into these spaces to be like, okay, there are people that.

still are willing. I think that's a good point. And I think willing is so important, but I also think that there's so much fear that you will get it wrong. Yes. You know, and like when, you know, when we were, for instance,

when we were going to do the rock character on it, just like that, we had a lot of people that we were consulting with. We consulted with Glad. We had, you know, we, we know children who are non-binary, right? And so we were talking to them and their parents and the, you know,

my kids, know people who are trans and non-binary who are young. Well, because they're in that generation now where I feel like there's a lot less hang-ups, but it's, and we're so lucky in our little bubble of L.A. here. Yes, yes. I think that it just goes to show trans people have existed in every space for as long as, you know, we can date back. And so how funny, though, that, like, a character like Rock, which was quite boundary-pushing. Right.

Or Hari Neff in season one, which like, because she played a rabbi. A rabbi. Yes. Like that is a different kind of boundary pushing as it was in the original show. Yeah. But like in the way that I think that in the right direction. I agree 100%. And that was our goal in a lot of ways because we couldn't push the boundaries in the same way as the first show.

Yes. Because that wouldn't make sense. No. And because also we're older and times have changed and we need to push the boundaries in a different way. but was everyone ready for that? But I think for those of us watching it that like so often I think I hear of other queer creatives looking for someone like themselves

even though I'm a 28 year old trans woman I think just seeing a rock or seeing Hari's character that was enough for me to be like okay I'm gonna keep trying to do this because that means that there are people out there that are willing to create for someone like me. Right, I agree. And there is someone, you know, someone's kids walking by when they're watching and just like that who might be a rock and get to see that.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's very important. And I think sometimes we forget about it because honestly you get into, first of all, you're doing your best within it, right? And I mean, we stress so much and we stress so much about Sada Ramirez's character. Yes. I mean, so much, you know. And with the comedy element of Sarah's character. Because it's like what joke is two points. pushing the boundary. Right.

It's almost impossible. Yeah. Right. It's almost impossible to do. But we really wanted to do it. But then people got really upset with us to the point where, you know, you're just like, you have to really think like, is it wrong to try? I mean, we certainly consulted so many people.

We tried, you know, everything. And I shouldn't even speak because I wasn't integrally involved in that. I was in the rock situation more so. But, you know, I do feel like we did the homework. Yeah. You know, and we had the people who came to us and gave notes and we took the notes and all of that. Like, it was very important. But on the same hand, you're never going to please everyone.

Yeah, and I don't think anyone got notes on this episode that we're talking about today. I don't think there are any notes given. No. Okay, question for you. Yes. In the most lovely way. Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than no grip.

A new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F-1, including the astrology of the current grid. Lewis Hamilton, Crapicorn Sun, Cancer Moon. Wouldn't you know it? Michael Schumacher is also a Capricorn Sun, Cancer Moon. The story of the sports most consequential driver's strike. We have one man who, upon hearing that he was going to be fired, freaked out,

and apparently climbed out the window of the bathroom. And was Daniel Ricardo's illustrious F-1 career, a success story, a cautionary tale, or some combination of both? He started getting all this attention, and he maybe started to think, I'm bigger than this, I'm better, and plenty of other mishap scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent, dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Chetty, host of the On Purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Hillary Duff, singer, actress, and multi-platinum artist.

Hillary opens up about complicated family dynamics, motherhood, and releasing our first record in over 10 years. We talk about what it's taken to grow up in the entertainment industry and stay grounded through every chapter. It's a raw and honest conversation about identity, evolution, and building a life that truly matters. You desire in family like this picture, and that's not reality a lot of the time it's for people.

My sister and I don't speak. It's definitely a very painful part of my life. And I hope it's not forever, but it's for right now. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Chetty on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Joe Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men.

actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives, and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius are misunderstood. A son and Venus and Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses and different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all. If you're navigating your own transformation or just want to chart side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity and real life, this episode is a must listen.

Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. A nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies. is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict? A villain. A nurse named Lucy Letby.

Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, doubt the case of Lucy Lettby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived in. To ask what really happened when the world. decided who Lucy Lettby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt.

It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Lettby on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast.

I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its fault of secrets. Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you have any trans friends like back then?

I didn't. I mean, I had to think through this myself last night because when I was watching it, as I said, we, I have, there's many people in our lives now. Yes. Who are at different places on the journey of transitioning of this. being kids and pronouns. Pronouns definitely pro-a. A lot of pronouns going around. Big deal, man.

It's a big deal. In Los Angeles. It's not easy. In Los Angeles and New York also. Yes. Everywhere. Yes. I mean everywhere.

But like those are my two places that I really exist and that I have kids in my life that are my friends kids or whatever friends of my kids. Right. So for us, when I think back on this, because obviously this is Samantha's storyline, I'm very much over in my tray storyline. Oh, you've got, you're in it, honey. I'm in it big time. I was very fully in the whole thing.

Like, I don't remember all of it. I had Kyle on and we discussed, but I didn't remember all of it, though I did. I had had Alan Coulter on. And he talks about the scene that happens in this episode where we do finally have sex. And then we talk about it afterwards. Oh, yes, we need to get into all that. Yeah, it's super interesting. I had not remembered it.

I had not really remembered it, which is interesting. I feel like it was the most honest. And it felt like your character was finally breathing with Trey for the first time. That's so true. That's so true. I really loved watching it. I was pleased because I hadn't remembered it. Because once he comes, it kind of got into like a very,

the lines were just so blurred. Do you know what I mean? As I said to him, like, the day that Charlotte and Trey got married, I don't care about marriage. I'm not married. I've never wanted to be married. I grew up in the South. That's all anyone talked about.

I thought it was so old-fashioned and like, blah. And who you are playing this woman that's all she cares about. She's obsessed, right? But like, come to the wedding day, I was. like, not even on the planet Earth. I was just levitating with joy. Like, I had lost the boundaries. Now, no one else was, except for Kyle enjoyed it,

but the girls were like, it took so long. They're asleep. They're so mad. They didn't like their bridesmaids, dresses, all the different things. But I'm just like, oh, this is amazing. You know what I just was just, you know, the lines had blurred in so many ways at that point,

which as an actor, it's a great thing. But it's also interesting. I think one of the, I want to get married so bad basically, I think mostly for the wedding. Like, I think that's... Yeah, people seem to feel that way, yes. And so you kind of did get the best of both worlds. I think exactly 100%.

But then you also did have to get divorced. It's so true. And that was sad. And I think it was confusing also because the whole storyline is interestingly confusing. Yes. And you still don't really know what's going on with him. Where it ends in this episode is such a confusing place of them finally having this like... Right. Earth-shattering sex.

And it's so exciting. And then he says something like, like, well, you ask him if he, are, are, do you regret marriage? Like, did you ever really want to marry me? Right. Which is really. But you said it in a way, okay, acting. That was like, it, it wasn't, you weren't going to be upset with whatever he said.

It was like, it was almost like you just wanted to. It was the idea. You want to hear it. And I do think that's really major growth for her for Charlotte. You know, and I also feel like. Like some of it is because they did just have sex or whatever lingering questions she'd had. Because when you do watch the beginning of the series, she has all these interesting insecurities that are like underneath her kind of more adventurousness than you realize.

Yeah, everyone thinks she was like, you know, the Pollyanna. But no. But she's out there trying stuff. She's kind of weird sometimes. I know. Totally. Well, that's, I find my inner Charlotte, like I'm a very earnest adult. And I've got a lot.

I think what I'm hoping to do is get through life. and with a sense of wonder and innocence. I think innocence in adults, it's almost like we turn 18 and we're all of a sudden got to harden and become assholes. But I want to, I want to constantly be able to find my earnestness. I love it. And, and I think that's where I relate to Charlotte the most. But I also think she's, she's got that little bit of a weird, um, she can say something sometimes that surprises you. And it happens so often with the girls where they're like, what? I know, I know. But I think they go together because what you're saying is that, and I so respect you for even acknowledging this, right, as an earnest person myself.

Yes. It's not easy. The world is trying to shut you down more than ever. At all times. And especially on social media, I think, because like when I go to share something that is really silly or actually relating it back to like hyperfemininity, for example, I so often, you know, am experiencing something for the first time in my transatlantic. transition, whether that's trying a new makeup product on or having a, you know, a romantic experience

with a straight man. And people will try to equate that to like a caricature or to cosplay of womanhood or that I'm doing it wrong. But I actually think through the characters and sex in the city, I was able to identify parts of myself through these characters that not saying like, oh, I am that woman, but I really like how she does this. Or I like. how she handled this. And that scene with Charlotte where she's completely honest with him after that sexual experience, that to me is the kind of leveled balance that I want to find in my womanhood and in the confidence. Me too.

I mean, are we all looking for those kind of like signposts kind of things? And then there's so many people telling us that we're doing it wrong. Right. But, you know, that. Like, good Lord. It's 2025. Good God. And that's where with the, you know, just personally with gender and identity, I'm like, what am I doing that is so offensive to you or that actually affects your life really in any way?

Totally. And that's what's confusing to me is we're so busy in other people's shit that we aren't focusing on our own. Right. And I just think it's sad because I do think women get the brunt of it. And I think that right now I've had to, I've like closed off a lot of. pieces of myself to protect them when I would love to share them. And I would love to be out there talking about certain things. But also you have to protect to stay open. I think there is a healthy amount of like self-protection because you're protecting the soft places. Yes. Because if you

just are wide open, they're not going to survive. No. And people, the energy vampires will find you. Yeah, absolutely. Because they're so out there. Social media is so difficult anyway. And I think sometimes the challenges like finding the balance between expressing yourself and it's so powerful to express yourself. You know, especially in your situation where you're like a beacon of brightness and hope and, and, you know, like how the world should be, in my opinion. Thank you. It's my pleasure.

It's true. But I feel like that's so important to do, but not if it's costing you too much. Right. So you always have to protect yourself. It's so important. And I think about this myself in a much lesser, lesser level, because I am really open, but like I have to protect my kids. You know what I'm saying? Yes. You have other things now in part of the equation.

That are more important than, oh, they look so cute. I want to put them on social media. You know what I'm saying? Because there's a lot of crazy people out there. There are. And I don't need all their opinions. And I don't need their opinions about my kids because my kids are special, obviously, to me and need to be protected. And that's really how like our little, our children's selves inside us are the same. Yes.

and honoring those parts because I think I almost went into it and I shared, you know, from day one of transition, that was partly little Dylan who came out to, you know, her mom when she was four, saying, this is who I am and now saying that to the world and then taking all of this in. But I do think we can, we're always just trying our best. And we, the moments where I look back and say, oh, I would have said this differently or I would have you know, maybe I shouldn't have shared that. I just now have to truck forward with that mind. Because we're also not going to be perfect.

No. Nobody's perfect. And you're, you know, you're just like, that's also one of the things that I love. And it's, you know, it's so hard because like in some ways I am Charlotte, in some ways I'm not, right? Yes. So when I look back, you know, I have to go like. Taking ownership.

Taking ownership, but also, I mean, ownership of my performance. Because sometimes I'm like, oh, I didn't do that well. Do you mean? No. I do occasionally really feel that way. Not often. Not often. Okay.

But occasionally, because sometimes, for instance, like the, when I propose to myself with, Trey, Kyle, and then I go to tell Sarah Jessica Carey about it. You know, I have to use all the names because it's very confusing. I remember that they were very, very focused. You know, when you're in a creative situation and you have a director and you have a writer, right? And they're saying to you, like, you've got to play the shock, you've got to play the shock, you've got to play the shock.

It's a very long scene to play one feeling. Right. It's not really possible. Right? But did you give in sometimes? No, I wish I had had, I wish I had the strength to be like, you know what, I can't play that, the whole scene, you guys. I mean, that's obviously the beat that I start with, right? Because I'm like at the door, like, all shocked, I get that.

But you can't play one. The whole time. No, the entire time. But I try so hard to do it because I was trying to please them. And it wasn't that good. It could have been so much better if I had given myself freedom to. I'm going to give you an A plus still. Oh, my God.

It's exactly how it was supposed to. to be. You're so sweet. Okay, good. That's so sweet. I mean, and I do think also, you've got to give yourself a break, right? Thousand percent. And that's why I think a break on the episode title. I, and I just, I also love, okay, I think that we've gone down 7,000 roads. We have. I'd ask if you had known any trans people back in the day. Right. And I did not. So, and then when. Or not that I know of, I should say. And I think of the characters, you had the least to kind of contribute about that specific storyline. Definitely. Because I'm all stuck in the tray, even in the coffee show. And I was thinking about it.

two of like now 25 years later and I was like I feel like because Samantha ends up being probably the most transphobic of them all which I think she would probably be the least I know it makes no sense like that's those are the kind of women I feel like the Chelsea handler types in my life that I know see me as a woman like a hundred percent absolutely absolutely it's weird but then I was going I was like today I was like oh who would have been the most transphobic and I was like none of those women I think in New York City, in 2025 today, would have said any of those things or would have felt that way.

No, I mean, that's what's so shocking. Like, everything about it was so outdated and like crazy watching it. But I also think that, like, you know, a lot of during that time, they were casting men to play trans women. And I looked it up and there's, there was three main leads. It was Destiny Joe and China.

Yeah. And what I found interesting, it looks like two of them are non-trans, but one was Karen Cover Girl played Joe. Okay. And she very sadly passed away in 2017. But she won all these pageants in the trans circuit. And she did, she had this like amazing legacy of dolls and, and of a family that she's built. And I was like, okay, that is.

a trans woman that was there, like was a part of that scene, was a part of this episode. And I was thinking about her and how when you're a guest star, you're a day player, you probably don't have the rest, you don't know how they're speaking about you, but how big of a moment that would be, oh my gosh, I'm a trans woman in the year 2000. I've been offered this role. And in her, you know, taking an opportunity that was very exciting. And I, I, I, I can relate to that with like, you know, I got asked to go to the White House to interview the president. And I never, you know, there never been a trans person to do that. And I didn't fully know what I was doing or why, what the bigger picture was.

And if I had that information, I probably wouldn't have done what I did. And I, and same thing. I think about that I question with Karen is if Karen had read that whole script, would she have still wanted to have been a part of that? I know, but well, rest in peace, Karen. We love you. Yes, Karen. Thank you for being with us.

It's just fascinating of having to take the opportunities that you can when they're so hard to come by. Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than no grip. A new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1, including the astrology of the current grid. Lewis Hamilton, Capricorn Sun, Cancer Moon. Wouldn't you know it? Michael Schumacher is also a Capricorn Sun, Cancer Moon.

The story of the sports most consequential driver strike. We have one man who, upon hearing that he was going to be fired, freaked out, and apparently climbed out the window of the bathroom. And was Daniel Ricardo's illustrious F1 career, a success story, a cautionary tale, or some combination of both? He started getting all this attention, and he maybe started to think, I'm bigger than this. and plenty of other mishaps, scandals and sagas

that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent, dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Chetty, host of the On Purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Hilary Duff, singer, actress, and multi-platinum artist. Hillary opens up about complicated family dynamics,

motherhood, and releasing our first record in over 10 years. We talk about what it's taken to grow up in the entertainment industry and stay grounded through every chapter. It's a raw and honest conversation about identity, evolution, and building a life that truly matters. You desire in family like this picture, and that's not reality a lot of the time it's for people. My sister and I don't speak.

It's definitely a very painful part of my life. And I hope it's not forever, but it's for right now. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Chetty on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. A nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Leppie. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story?

The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt the case of Lucy Lettby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it, to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Lettby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Joe Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life.

And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men. Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic, Aquarian. visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives, and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius are misunderstood. A son and Venus and Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses and different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all. If you're navigating your own transformation or just want to chart-side view into how a leading

artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast.

I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's the unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its fault of secrets. Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, the other thing that I thought about by the end, because what I do remember of this episode myself is that final scene on the rooftop. Yes. Oh! Okay, I have a wall of women at my house in my bedroom and it's been up there for two years but this is you and the girls in a little screen shot.

It's in tasteful. They're all. I've got Dolly Parton up there. I've got Frida Kahlo. Amazing. That is, that scene is like, it's just joy and it's like it's community and I think have, oh, the last line of the episode I found with that. It was, don't worry, they have a very lovely life.

I know, which is a callback to something else that we say earlier. Well, about the roosters. We have even talked about the roosters. Oh my God, right, which I totally forgot. I know. We love animals. And like, I was like, wait, what? There's a veterinary rescue. Next door. But they're just going to put them in the basement now. I know what? But what made me laugh was this idea of, I thought Carrie was saying, don't worry, they have a very lovely life about the trans community.

I know. And then I was like, well, I don't know if that's the takeaway. And then I was like, it's also really funny thinking about now in 2025. Like, I don't think I would also say that. I know, I know. But then I was like, oh, she's talking about like the girls. She was, she was right? Okay.

And, and, but it did. But also, I was like, did we think the show was ending? Like, I'm so, there's so many interesting things. Season three, that felt like, I mean, we shouldn't have thought that, but like, isn't that a weird way to end? Don't worry. They have a very lovely life. I was like, that's how we should have ended and just like that. Oh, well.

You know, had we known that it was the ending, maybe that's how maybe we'll just keep that in the back of our mind for the future. But it did, it just made me laugh because I was like, oh, this isn't, I totally like thought it was just about those women on having a barbecue. You know what? We gave up, we threw them a barbecue. They've got a good life. I mean, I was confused too. I was like, wait, are we talking about the chickens? Are we talking about these trans people who are actually with us now?

Like, thank God we're having a barbecue together. Like, it's very interesting and slightly underwritten, I think. Yes, but can I tell you what is so great about an episode like this? Yes. Is because I think flowers can grow from, you know, dead things and good can come from bad. And I had a situation earlier this year that this episode played a major part in. Let's hear it. Are you ready?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It was April of this year. I, oh gosh, I was leaving to go to London to do a play. and I wanted to get out of America. I felt so polarizing. I felt like the current administration, you know,

how to target even specifically on my back. And I was like, I need to get out and people don't understand me here. I don't feel safe. And before I was leaving, I was going to see a few of my queer and gal friends. Lily was going to be there. And one of our friends was like,

just, you know, I have to bring this 22-year-old guy from Alabama. He's here from his senior spring break. Okay. from college in Alabama. Okay. Frat guy, you know, lacrosse player. Okay.

And so he tells us that, this gay friend of ours. And we're like, how did, we were like, well, we met on vacation. He just wanted to cut. He never been to L.A. before. Never been out of Alabama. Wow. And so I'm thinking, oh, God, I'm going to get hate crime at this dinner. But, and so me and Lily walk in and we're mostly just excited to see the girls in

the gays. And then this guy is sitting at the table. Hottest man we've ever seen. Pringle's man mustache, but in the chicest way. Oh, my God. And so we're all sitting around and we're gabbing and he's just taking it in. And then somebody says, you know, oh, what sex and the city character are you? And we're going around.

And he goes, is no one going to ask me? And we're like, oh, if you've seen it? And he was like, I'm on season three. Oh. And basically he starts, he's like, well, you know, I'm kind of a Miranda because I'm a realist. But, you know, I'm really leading into my leading. you know, role energy, main character energy. So I guess I'm kind of carrying that way.

And I do have a lot of sex like Samantha. And this is like the most fratty straight man you've ever seen. Love it. And so we're, I mean, me and Lily, our jaws are just on the floor drooling. We're like, what, where did you come from? And then we were like, oh, well, have you been to Davy Wains in L.A.? No. We're going.

So it's a bar where you open up a fridge and you walk through in Hollywood. Total dive bar. Oh my God. 70s vibes. And there was a live band. And when I look back at him, he walks in. I'm like, are you having fun? He's like, this is the best day of my life.

And so we're watching the band. And he's probably, you know, six, four. I'm five, seven. And I start feeling the little drum on, you know, when you've got someone standing behind you and you start feeling the little, the drum of their fingers on your stomach. And you're going, what's happening? Definitely. And I look to Lily and I'm like, look at the fingers.

And so he's, you know, we're like kind of rocking with the music. The live band's playing. I'm just acting natural. And at this point, my transness has never come up. I've never talked to him about anything like that. Oh, Lord. And so I'm like, okay, we need an escape plan from this. So me and Lily go to the bathroom.

I'm like, what do I do? And it's really crazy because as, you know, out there as I am as a public figure, I still find myself having to come out all the time, especially in, you know, romantic situations if I'm just meeting someone at a bar or at a club. And so it makes for all these like tricky conversations. I can imagine. And luckily the friend that we were with, the gay guy, was like, had told Alabama guy that I was trans. He was like, oh, that's okay.

You know, it's cool. And I go back out, Vulevoo from Abba's playing. Oh my God. We start making out on the dance floor. It was like a, you know, Fuleleu. And I was like, let me just enjoy this for what it is. Sure. We do a few dances.

and then I get into my Uber to go home. And he goes, well, I'm coming with you, right? And I was like, ah, ha, ha, ha, so I'm like, fine. We pull up to my house. I hand him a guitar. I didn't even know if he played guitar. I just handed it to him and said, there, sit on my couch. He starts playing Hotel California.

Wow. And then I go into my bedroom and I start scooping the cheez-its out of my bed. And the Percy pigs, you ever had a Percy pig? No. I almost brought you some today. What is it? They're Marks and Spencers. You can only get them in the UK.

and they're sour candy but I had like bits of them in the bed. I didn't expect to have anyone over. I thought it was going to get hate crimes by this guy. And next thing I know he's playing Hotel California in the living room. Yeah. So I'm scooping all the crumbs out. And I'm like, okay, ready. And we have this like amazing night.

And it was so just wild because this is the last person I ever thought that I'd end up in bed with. And also keep in mind, he had never heard. He didn't know about me before. And then in the house that, you know, I had a few. magazines with my face on it. He was like, oh my gosh, you're her? And I was like, yeah. And he brought, you know, brought up this beer ad. The beer thing. The beer thing. And he was like, oh, that was you. He's like, you're way hotter in person. And I was like, I'll take it. Thank you. And so then we hook up. There was a moment where I got on top of him. And he goes, I can't believe I'm

having sex with Devin Malaney. I wanted to die. Do you know what that? That was bad. I mean, because what do you do? Do you correct someone in that moment? Yeah, I think so. I, well, but it depends what you want. It felt like it would have taken a turn in the wrong way. And so I ran with it.

And so I said, we're just, right now I'm deafing. Yeah, why not? And so we had this night, we, you know, we're laying in bed and he goes, you're my 33rd. And I was like, what? Like, you're the 33rd woman I've had sex with. And I was like, oh my gosh. And we hadn't really brought up the trans stuff. but he was like, I've never, you know, done anything queer.

I've never, this is crazy. I was like, how was it? And he was like, that was great. And I know, I was like, okay, great. And so I really thought it was going to be this one time thing. He puts my phone, my name and it's Devi on the phone and I go in and change it. And I was like, this is actually, and he was like, oh, shit. Oh, sorry.

And you did the right thing. The next day, he goes, what are we doing today? And I was like, nothing. I had plans. And he was like, well, can I see you tonight? And I was like, okay. I thought, you know, this. I love this.

It's going well. Then that night, I had taken a little gummy and I forgot that he was potentially coming over. And so I'm watching your show. And he texts. He's like, what are you up to? I'm like, oh, I took a gummy. I'm watching sex in the city. And he goes, can we start at season three episode 17?

That's where I left off. Oh. So back in Alabama, clearly there was a Netflix account that was sitting on that episode. So I was like, great. We order Taco Bell. I was already watching the show. I'd go to that episode. We're watching it cuddling in bed.

And then cockadoodle do comes on. And I'm going, oh, shit. Because I, the whole kind of hope from this scenario with this experience with this guy was that I am not, he's, it's not about my identity. It's not, I'm just trying to, you know, have fun. I'm learning about my body. and we're watching it and I go, I like totally clam up and I'm like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing.

And finally we kind of get through to it and we watch the entire episode actually in silence pretty much and then we get to the rooftop scene and he's like, so how does this make you feel? Wow. I was like, okay, 22 year old you know, college guy

and I go, well as a trans woman and he goes, no, he goes, you're a woman. You're not a trans woman. You're a woman. Amazing. And I'm like, oh, shit. But I actually started tearing up because this, how crazy.

I think that it took that kind of character to get that through my thick skull. And in the last place that I thought it was going to be in this episode that is so deeply problematic. Created this moment for me and this guy to see each other and have him validate the way that I see myself. And that was the turning point for me in my transition of being like, oh, I, I, and you shouldn't need permission from anyone, but that gave me hope. Because what it did was I was like, oh, there are still people in this world, there's straight men in this world that see me the way that I want to be seen. Amazing. And so just so we know that something did come from the cockadoodle episode. And also, I do think the, the kind of point about it is that even

know it's like so badly portrayed, right, in the episode. You know, I don't know like how many other places there was any representation at all, right? Meaning, not that it really, I don't know, representation is the right word, but because we do end on a joyful note where I wish there was more about how we got there, right? Right. That's the part that's missing for me. It almost feels like a scene is missing of like the invites going out and the groceries being perched. Or her having some realization that maybe she has. You know, yes, maybe that she handled it wrong or that we're not going to call them men anymore.

Right. Or that was like so stereotypical and like cliched, her projection onto them. But whatever reason she does get to this joyful place, which I think is where the show's heart is. Yes. Inclusion. You know, joy. Trying to find the funny and trying to find the joy. Yeah.

And being together in it, you know, which I think is like that's in some ways is our legacy, though. Sometimes you'll watch an episode and you'll be like, ooh, we don't deserve that. see right this moment, but in the end, we get there somehow. And I think you could ask a thousand different trans people about this episode and they'd have very different takes. And especially black trans women because that is what their story was being portrayed as. Right. And I think that now going forward 25 years later, thank God we're cringing at it. Right. And also, thank God that there is a straight guy from Alabama who could have such wisdom.

That likes the dolls. They like the dolls. Love it. They do. Love it, but not even liking the dolls. I would expect them to like the dolls because I think everyone likes the dolls really. Thank you. But that he would have wisdom about you claiming yourself. And I don't think he knew what that meant.

And it's so crazy when you think about moments, actually like me being here with you right now. Like you don't know how much you've affected someone else's life. And even just that's why whenever I meet someone out on a street or whatever, I realize that this could be a big moment for them or I don't know what's going on in their life, but I want to make sure that I leave them better than, you know, I met them. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's what he did. And actually, we still talk a little bit.

That's so sweet. But I think that it wasn't about the long term of it. It was about those little moments. And have you ever been with someone where, like, you got a very specific thing from them? And you knew that, like, there was maybe a temptation to, like, keep it going. but you just let it be this special moment instead. No, I'm not good at that. You don't do that?

I am not good at keeping something simple and short. No. You play it out until you beat it with the dead horse. I mean, that's my old past. I mean, I definitely have been with people. I'm trying to think now. I mean, I definitely feel, I definitely feel like there have been people along the way where there was like a point or a message within the relationship probably for both.

The purpose of it. Yeah, purpose, a larger purpose. And I mean, I remember there's a time. It's not in this time of the show yet, but it's coming. And there's a scene that everyone loves. I'm not going to give it away now, but there's a scene that everyone loves. And I know what was going on in my personal life. And my personal life was that I was dating someone who, for the first time, I would say,

and I'm like probably 35 or something at that point, right, was not pushing me away saying you're too much. And he was a person that people in my life were like, what are you doing? You know when you have those people? People are just like, why are you going there? Don't go over there. And I'm like, you don't understand. That's Miranda and Carrie in this episode.

She's like going crazy about why are you still talking a big. Right. We're going to talk about that scene. I love it so much. This guy was saying you were too much. No, he was saying that I wasn't too much. He was like the first one that I had been with. And my, I mean, my quirks weren't always, I don't know really, who knows what the problems were with people, but like, you know when people want you to be less all the time?

Yeah. Like, they just want you to be less. Yeah. Less emotional. Less intense. Less needy, I guess. Less, like, all the different things, right? And he was the first one who was like, bring it on.

It's great. And I was like, oh, my God. You gave you permission? Yes. And embraced, like, was into it. You know what I'm saying? And this is someone who like on paper, everybody was like, no, no. And anyone who knew about it, at that point, I was keeping things to myself.

Do you mean? Yes. Yes. But it was a very important thing. Did it end okay with him? No, it ended horribly, horribly. Definitely horribly. We got something out of it.

That's, well, it's also. Because I stayed too long, Dylan. I stayed too long. Okay. You know what I'm saying? Don't stay too long. Right. Didn't have that part yet.

But I also think I've had friends where, you know, maybe I don't like their partners and I don't understand it. Also, same way. way around. And I think we all have to live out these stories. We have something that we're working on. And I think I've also had friends who have tried to teach me so, you know, what they've gone through and so that I don't go through it. But sometimes you've got to do it. Yeah, no, it doesn't work that way. And that's what, let's talk for a second because I also really didn't remember anything that goes on. Part of what is so fun about rewatching is that I'm like in sometimes, I literally

have no memory. Like, I did not remember that Samantha, sorry, Miranda and Carrie are going to run into... Oh my God, we've even gotten to that yet. I know, right? I mean, like, so many, and I'm like, oh my God! And then they fight, they fight about it all. I mean, like, it's super fascinating. Our show's very interesting. The highs and the lows. Can I pee before we talk about it? Of course. Okay. We're peeing really quick. We're going to pee and then we're going to rewatch. I'm Clayton Eckerd. In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him. If I could press a button and rewind it all I would. That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one-night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone

viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. Listen to Love Trapped on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. for the 26 IHeart Podcast Awards, live at South by Southwest. Hello, is anybody there? Raised by a single mom, Ego may have a few father-related issues.

Are we supposed to talk about your dad? Her podcast, Thanks Dad, is full of funny, heartfelt conversations with actors, including fellow S&L alums, comedians, musicians, and more about life and their wonderfully complicated relationships with their fathers. I think and hope that's a good thing.

Get to know Ego. Follow Thanks, Dad, with Ego Wodom, and start listening on the free IHeart Radio app today. Ready for a different team. take on Formula One, look no further than No Grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1, including the astrology of the current grid, the story of the sports most consequential driver strike, and plenty of other mishaped, scandals, and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent, gumster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Chetty, host of the On Purpose podcast.

I'm joined by Luke Combs, award-winning country music artist and one of the most authentic voices in music today. The guy that says he's always going to be there and that will do anything to be there is the only guy that's not there. No matter what, I'm going to prioritize my wife and my children. I dread the conversation with my son. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Chetty on the Iheart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Jill Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today, I'm talking with my dear friend, Krista Williams. It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change. Dance with the breakdowns.

The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves. So I'm, like, delusionally proud of my chart. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast, starting on, February 24th on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.