Are You A Charlotte? - beTREYal with Jenny Bicks... (S3 E16 "Frenemies")

Episode Date: February 23, 2026

It’s time to really talk “SEX” with writer Jenny Bicks as Kristin and Jenny go deep in to Charlotte and Trey’s intimacy issues and the BIG O.Kristin reveals why she was especially nervous during a certain scene in this episode and Jenny shares the storyline based on her own love life.Plus, a mysterious cell phone number.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? Hi, everybody. Welcome to Are You a Charlotte? Today, fun, fun guest. She is returning the fantastic writer, Jenny Vicks. She wrote the incredible episode Frenemones, which aired on October 1st in the year 2000. So we're going to rewatch with Jenny and hear all of her reminiscing and talk about the process in the writer's room. So enjoy everyone.

Thanks for joining us. We're here. We're talking to Jenny Biggs about frenemies. We're talking about frenemies. Frenemes, which is like such an incredible episode. I'm so thrilled that I have you to talk to about it. I can't believe, like, I was so pleased to rewatch it because I'm really proud of it. It's amazing.

It's a really good episode, but let's talk about you in that episode. I was dying. I did not remember that that was this episode at all. I hadn't remembered that either. I was like, yes, girl, you go. But also, you wrote it. So, yes, girl, you go. Okay.

Let's both go. But I did not have to do a scene on camera. Oh, I was panicked. So panicked. So nervous about that scene. Plastically. Thank you. I am happy.

It's one of those ones, thank goodness. And I mean, it lives on in memes and whatnot, right? But it is really great within the episode, you know, to see it in its full context. And also watching them in order. And because I couldn't really remember what happened. with Trey. I mean, I vaguely knew, but like seeing every episode again is super fascinating. Because of course, you know, they're so hampered by the fact that they won't talk it out. That's like their central problem really is that they aren't open to, you know, he's really not open to discussing and

going to therapy and doing all the things you would do. So she's got to like, what if I do this? What if I do that? And it's not exactly Charlotte's forte to discuss difficult things, you know? No, no. She's got a lot of strengths, but that is not. Totally, totally, totally. So it's perfect in a way to watch them. Like it's the perfect conflict that you guys created because, of course, he is so incredible and gorgeous and all of the things. And then it's just frustrating to watch. So, and then I was like, wait, is this. Also, I didn't remember that this is when I am the Samantha of my old, you know, sorority group. I didn't remember. Friend of me's is packed with. action. Packed with action, packed with theme. Every character has such, like I, here's why I kind of really love it is the, like, we really explore the relationships between the girls. Like, we put them up against each other, which is rare. Really rare. Hence the whole, or part of why we use that title. And it's like, wow, they're really having to, they're not messing around. Like that coffee shop scene where you and Samantha

getting hit and then, you know, Carrie Miranda or some of the best eye work. So great. The eye work. Incredible. Incredible. You guys there? Also, I was dying. I wanted to cover my face when I was watching it. Ooh. Didn't remember that either. But then, okay, so I have so many questions. First of all, where did the, was frenemies in the cultural lexicon at this point or no? No. So here's, what's interesting. I was trying to figure out, discern whether we, there's a version of this where we came up with that word. Right, but I don't know. What I do remember for sure is when I think

Darren walked in and said this word, and we're like, this is a brilliant word. We, we, none of us had heard the word before. So we certainly had never heard it. So I don't know where it came from, but it was not in the universe. Right. It's a great word, right? It's a great word. of all of our lexicon. But at the time, it was a word we'd never heard in the writer's room. And so any time you bring a word like that to writers, we're like, yes. And yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great, great word. We had never heard the word. Amazing. That's amazing. I mean, I wonder we'd have to ask Darren where he heard it or if he just like came up with it. But I mean, it's such a good word. You know what it reminds me of? Do you remember it would have already happened, I think, or maybe

it's coming. Do you remember when we say, did you Google him? Right. Right. And I don't. don't think it was, you know, commonly said at that point. I don't know if we coined it exactly, but we definitely put it out there. Put it out there. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's like that. It might be hard to find the actual route. Yeah. But I can absolutely promise you that when that word was brought up in the writer's room, we were stunned. We're like, brilliant, brilliant word. and it became the basis of, it just, it fed so fantastically into the stories that we wanted to tell for each of the characters

at that point in their journey that season. Absolutely. Now, is this the episode, this is what I remember, and I don't know if it's accurate, that when the Miranda Carrey storyline came up where they were kind of, you know, hashing out should Miranda date someone that Carrie had previously dated,

and they discuss it very much head on. Was that something that HBO had something to say about? Do you remember this? No. Okay. Because it's either this episode or one before where we kind of cut it. But there was something where at some point they were supposed to kind of argue about a guy. And Carolyn Strauss, I believe, said, you know, we cannot argue about a guy.

We can discuss a guy, right? Like, but they need to be on the same team. That's interesting. I wonder, it rings more of a bell. for me when they were fighting about Baryshnakov. That when they were fighting on the street, that that was a very intense

moment because we hadn't had them fight and that that was a discussion that we did have with HBO. Got it. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. That's later though. That is much later. Yeah, interesting. Seasons later. So I don't

remember having that specific discussion, but I know that we often were aware that we didn't want, we did not want this to be a show about, I want this guy, know, you want this guy, you know, there was not a show about cock blocking. No. Or whatever the opposite. I don't, I don't even know what the proper term is.

I don't know. I totally know what you mean. But I mean, and I think that was an important thing because we are dealing with relationships and any time a show is dealing with the relationships, you can kind of slide into the soap operanness of it. And we didn't, we didn't want that. And we wanted the women to be, even if they might disagree, united in terms of we're on each other's side. We're never going to fight over a guy, meaning who gets the guy. Right. We can have opinions about whether a guy. And certainly, we had those fights all the time about big. Right. And there were some of the characters who were

pro big and some that weren't and some that were pro at certain times, whatever. Right. Right. Right. We're never going to be, I want this guy. Right. Thank goodness. Thank goodness. I mean, it's funny, too, like, this is one of those episodes where if you had said to me, friend of me, I would have thought I remembered the whole thing, but I never would have placed these different scenes together all in one episode.

It's so many important scenes for all of us. And it's interesting when I was rewatching it, I was reminded that Carrie's main storyline, which is that she's going to do the. talk to the single women and how that goes. And are we getting older and wiser or just older? Right. Is quite different than the frenemies theme that we're dealing with throughout the rest of the episode. So true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But sometimes we would be able to do that, which makes it more fun. Like you launch the story where you have Moran, you know, they're trying to figure out where this guy is

and turns out he's dead, which is crazy and funny and bizarre. But it becomes a bad. her being a single one, Carrie being a single woman and trying to explain that at the same time they were dealing with, you know, her, Miranda not knowing where her date is and what is it like to get older and not know how to deal with being stood up, which is really where that storyline started from because we were talking in the room about like how different ways that people get stood up. And I do remember Cindy Shupac was telling this story and I don't mean to her story, but I give her all of this. Because she was crazy New York stories about how she was waiting for her date to come pick

her up in a New York apartment building with a doorman. And the doorman rang up to say like, oh, your date's, you know, coming to pick you up. And the doorman called up and said, your date's not coming up. She said, oh, I'll come down. And she said, no, he said, no, your date's not ever coming up. Like, I had used the doorman to stand Cindy up. Oh my God. Which was fantastic.

And by the way, this was what was great about writing on a show like this when we were single, which is, what a shitty story? But it becomes like a great jump-in-off. Incredible. But also, like, what was going on with that man that he thought, I'm going to go to her address and have a conversation with the doorman? Really odd. Yeah.

Also, remember, this was before cell phones were like a really big thing. Right. Also re-watching this episode is the first. time and only time. So Miranda says when she meets the, uh, the asshole, here's like, or no, I'm sorry, she has she, she says to someone my cell phone numbers on the back of my card. It's the guy. Yeah. It's the guy. Yeah. At the wake. Right. So she has a cell phone. Like what? I know, but we've never seen it. Oh my God. I didn't even think of that. And she's also so giggly and kind of like, weirdly needy. She's like, that's my cell phone and my email. And like, it's such a funny

moment, such a phone move. Because she's been stood up. Right. But what we determined in that room discussion was the only time it would be okay to be stood up that way would be if your date literally had died. I mean, yes. And that became

the story of. Which I love so much. But when they're walking up and Carrie says, it's an open casket. I've never seen a dead body. I mean, there's like there's so much subtext and like death and darkness. And it was

deep. It was deep. And it's also about rebirth. I mean, it's about, you know, Shakespeare called the orgasm, the little death. Of course. You know, and we are to assume that Charlotte achieved what she wanted. Oh, no. Come on. In a minute and a half? Or when she's trying to entice him? I don't know. I don't think she did, Jenny. In the phone conversation with Samantha, Samantha at the very end, you can see She says, did you, did you come? It's true. You know, I feel. I giggle.

She got was positive. Really? I mean, look, I think it's a huge accomplishment because at this point, the fact that it is ongoingly not happening for them is horrible. Awful. I didn't really remember this. I don't. I mean, obviously, I was trying to do it well and everything. But, like, I also just don't have a ton of experience with this.

And certainly I've never been married, right? So like that's the next level. And I've never been so focused on getting married like Charlotte was and like obviously really going to try. But then on the other hand, that man won't talk at all. Like, oh my gosh. And he talked in, I had a good time writing me because I grew up sailing. And so I had a good time writing all of the metaphors that he had for sailing as it applies

to sex. Yes. He enjoys that also, I think, Kyle. He gets a twinkling in his eye when he has them. You were so adorable as a couple. Like that's the other thing. I was reminded of. And that was part of the problem, right?

Is that Charlotte saw them as this perfect couple. They looked like the perfect couple. They appeared in essence to be right for each other. But in the basic, in the bedroom, no, which is awful. He would not talk about it. And so for her to get up there and really say what she says to him, the physicality aside, like that's a really big deal for Charlotte to the house. Oh, I agree.

I agree. And I was very like, oh, gosh. scared, like scared and stressed. And I remember being so stressed about what I was going to wear. And I'd forgotten about the scene that I'm shopping with Carrie at like kind of a tacky shop. And I'm holding up those crazy things. And she's trying to make jokes about it. You know, but obviously I'm quite tense, you know, about the whole thing.

And I'm trying to say, no, this is important. I have to show him that I'm not the Madonna. And then she's like, but you don't want to be the horror. You know, she's making jokes. But like, it's so serious for sure. Oh, it's hugely so. She's trying so hard. And I like also that we didn't shy away from the fact that it wasn't just that she felt rejected by Trey, but also that she was a sexual human being. So that she deserved to have pleasure and she deserved to have that attention. So that's a whole other level of story about a couple who's not getting it on. It's not just I'm annoyed by this. It's like I feel sexually rejected and I deserve. I want more. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's kind of a watershed moment for her. Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible. And I mean, I was so happy to see it again in the whole episode. I mean, obviously,

I also have so much else that is going on. Like, I go to the brunch with the sorority girls because I fought with Smith. Like, I didn't remember that this was literally one episode. It is amazing how much you guys could do in one episode. I totally forgot about the sorority sisters. Like, I honestly, and I wrote it and I forgot about it. The thing I love about it, I love so many things, but do you know the brand, Jacques Moose? Yes. So Simon, who is the, Simone, who is the designer, asked me to do this little video for his fashion show, I guess, a year ago, year and a half ago. And the scene with the sorority girls, the outfit was the inspiration for this whole video. And they had a picture of me. I had a, they wanted me to wear a tiny tank top. This is, of course, 25 years later.

a tiny tank top with a sweater folded just perfectly. They had a picture and we had to call them on the FaceTime in France to make sure that we had folded it correctly. It was like to the detail. And he made a sweater and embroidered my invitation on it that I opened in the video. And it was all inspired by that one outfit and that one scene in your episode. Amazing. I have never heard that. And that is crazy and fantastic.

Exactly. And also I was like, I'm sorry, can I please have my arms covering me? Because it's 25 years ago. Like, I can't live up to this. Right. But I also remember filming that scene because we see them together and we've set it up so brilliantly from the coffee shop with all of us where Samantha and I fight, which, you know, I hadn't really remembered that.

And when I watched it, I was concerned that I didn't do it well enough, like deep enough. I don't know. I was worried. The whole thing made me nervous watching it, you know? That's so interesting because, you know, obviously we each look at our old material in different ways and in the ways that we came into the material, right? So you're looking at it as the actor thinking, did I portray this? I'm looking at this writer thinking, why did I need that extra joke? We didn't need to cut that.

Why didn't we cut that? Right. But I don't, I feel like you did a terrific job. And you were threading so many needles in this. It's true. It's true. That part did, I did really, I was like, oh, okay, you did well. You gave yourself some silent.

Yeah, totally, totally. And I'm very, very happy with the tracing, right? Which I have remembered being happy with it, but now I see it in so many tiny splits, you know, tiny memes that I hadn't seen the whole thing. And I was like, no, no, it's really good. It's really good. Of course, because he's also really, really good with it. He has very little to say.

but we're just so connected that that's kind of the good and the bad of it, right? All right. So my Hyundai hot take from this episode called Frenemies, I'm going to have to go with Charlotte's storyline, partly because I'd forgotten about how many different things. Charlotte gets to do and say and feel in this episode between seeing her sorority sisters, trying to show her husband Trey that she's a sexual,

being, which was just such a beautifully written scene, and then fighting with Samantha, and then making up with Samantha. I've forgotten most of this, except for this scene with Dre, which I do love. It is embarrassing, but I do love it. So I'm just, I'm going to have to say Charlotte's overall storyline. I love it. I love what they wrote, and it was really fun to watch it. That was my Hyundai Hot Take, celebrating iconic moments, bold moves, and unforgettable style,

just like Hyundai. Hi, this is Joe Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men. Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives. and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius are misunderstood.

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on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So I have the scene with, I mean, it's a lot for Charlotte, you know, but fighting with Samantha always scary. You know what I'm saying? Like any of us disagreeing about anything to me was always scary. But it had been coming, right? Because she does have just the opposite point of view about sex than Charlotte, which has been true since day one.

and now that Charlotte is married and it's not working out, of course, it brings up all of her deeper things about the meaning of sex and the meaning of all of it, which is really what she says that like don't talk about it like that way. And I think that, you know, it's so fantastic that then you have me go off into like my past to see the sorority sisters thinking I'm going to feel comfort. But in fact, what I feel is discomfort because I'm now the Samantha and they're now very. like shut down to honest conversation about sex. So then I become kind of like I act out. And I remember filming that because I had to be slightly drunk. So I was always nervous about that. And I remember the reason that I put the money in the glass is because I had to storm off

and then like say something over my shoulder. And I would throw the money. And I threw the money one time and it landed in that. Yeah. Remember this? It was the perfect. I mean, couldn't have been better. It was so good.

We had scripted it. We wouldn't have been able to do it. I know. It was so good. It was so good. So I enjoyed that scene a lot, but I did not realize it was all in one thing. And I think traditionally what we would have had would be Charlotte like a pressure cooker, right? Like she's not expressing your feeling, not expressing your feeling.

And then there would have been like a blah blah, blah type of a thing, you know. But instead we have the Kyle scene. And then she calls Samantha, which is so nice. It's so nice. And I think what we did so well, if I might say so myself, is we took each of the, because Samantha has that same journey, right? So she's sexual with this guy and she's fucking him all the time and who cares. It's just for fun.

But then she meets kind of her doppelganger. And it turns out that she's more Charlotte than she thought. So she also, we push the boundaries of these women. so that they can recognize that they have more in common than they think. And I think that's what happens. Like you make friends in your 30s, if you're lucky, your 40s, your 50s, whatever. And, you know, they're not 100% of who you are, but they represent a part of who you are. And in this case, getting Samantha and Charlotte to recognize that they have more in common

than they think and that there are boundaries that their old selves maybe don't want to go to. And that's been because they're impacted by this other person. They could not be more opposite, but they're really sharing a lot more than they realized. Absolutely. Such a cool thing to look at with friendships. And it was fun. I mean, that, you know, that blowjob scene is so kind of crazy and like over the top and the table going up and down. Oh, my God.

The restaurant is really noticing. Yeah, that was a lot. That was a lot. But you have to go a lot to Samantha, Samantha. You have to. And even Samantha says, okay, that's more than I can handle. And so that's her moment where a little bit of Charlotte has gotten into her. And as I'm sure you've talked about on this podcast,

but we've talked about all the time is kind of, you know, how much of you is Charlotte, how much of you is Samantha. Each person has different levels of who they, which character they are. Yes. And in case, they both have parts of each other in them. And I think it's really sweet. I think it's so, so, so sweet. And also so, I think people forget about that.

Because people still say to me, like, would you and, you know, Charlotte and Samantha would ever be friends? I'm like, sure they would. You can't just be friends with people like yourselves exactly or whatever. It's boring. Like what? And you grow up and you, in different phases of your life, you collect people who are more like what you need at that time in your life. And I think this was exactly who Charlotte needed. Yes.

in them, like, because look, Carrie was hiding behind her menu. You know, she's not going to have that straight ahead sex talk. Right. You needed to hear from Samantha the hard truth. And, you know, it is hard. It's hard when the girls fight. It is. It's scary when the girls fight.

But I think that's also, it makes the relationship so much more real because there are conflicts. If you stay in those relationships, there's going to be conflicts and then you're going to get over it. let's talk about Carrie and Miranda because also they fight more than I realize when I'm rewatching, right? And fights the wrong word. They disagree more than I realize. And they'll have weird, like in the first season, is it the first season or the second where Carrie stands her up, you know, stands Miranda up for Big? And then she calls someone and you think she's calling Big, but she calls Miranda. And you go and she's sitting there and they make up.

And it's so sweet. Like there's so, right? There's so many like kind of ups and downs. and hills and, you know, their walk and talks are always so fascinating. I love their relationship more than I even ever realized that I love their relationship. And I love the complexities of it, you know, and that they really, like Miranda tells it like it is to carry more so than anyone else, you know, which I love so much. And I love this one because I don't remember another time where Carrie is like, I mean,

obviously, Carrie has dated the guy before eight years ago. And now they meet him at the wake and Miranda is feeling all red. because she was stood up by the dead guy. I mean, it's so much. It's so much to even retell. It's a lot. It is. It's incredible.

Like, and so it moves so quick. Like, you guys just did such a tremendous job, as you know. But then, and Carrie's like, no, no, don't go out with him. Like, it's so rare for her to even, like, it's a very rare thing. Usually she's like, yeah, you know, you know, see what it is or whatever. You know what I'm saying? She's usually more kind of casual, happy, go lucky or whatever about it. But since she's gone out with this guy and he was mean to her, like belittling, as we see later,

like a very kind of like belittling, you know, a misogynistic. Yeah. Exactly. But it's super fascinating. And then I just love the scene where they find, so Miranda likes him because, of course, she's just wanting to feel, you know, good and whatnot. And they go out and she talks Carrie into going for drinks and they go for drinks. And then, of course, it doesn't take much for that asshole to come out.

And then right away, like maybe the third comment. Miranda's like, well, you know, Carrie's not at, what does he say she is? It was something that she was. Oh, God. I just, I just rewatched it. We just rewatched it. And I can't remember now. But it's so well written because Miranda's trying to make the best of it, right?

And Carrie's like trying to reserve judgment. Like, I'm just going to sit here. And he starts out, okay. Like there's a couple little things like, oh, she loves her shoes. You know, and oh, Miranda says, did you go see his band? And she's like, no, I never did. And he goes, well, she was too busy buying shoes. That's the first little dig, right?

And she goes, oh, I do. I love my shoes. And you can just see her like, what is he doing? And then he just keeps going. And then Miranda's like, well, you are. And I just love when they're back together. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

And it doesn't take much. It doesn't take. No. No. And that was good. That's as it should be. As it should be. Yes.

But she had to have that little journey. She had to have the moment of, and by the way, that's the thing with these kind of And this guy was kind of based on a guy that I had dated. I was wondering. Yeah, who was an asshole and continues kind of to be an asshole. Those guys can be very charming. And so she goes on a date with him and it's a lovely date.

Like they close the bar. You know, he kisses her good night. It's romantic. The whole thing. And she's like, you know, as an audience, you're thinking maybe the guy has changed. Like, yeah, great. But Carrie knows better, or at least in this case, knew better. And I think what's good, too, is that you think maybe for a second, oh, she doesn't

want her to date him because she dated him. And you realize, no, no, no, no, she was right. He's just an asshole because people. Absolutely. Certain people like that don't change. Like, I agree. He's very recognizable to me. Yeah. We've all had one or two of these people in our life. Hopefully people are no longer in our lives like that. But most definitely. Yeah. But that is a type. And it's certainly a guy that uses his charm, you know, it's a charm offensive. And it's just offensive, which by that, that would have been a line we would have written in this episode. So good.

So good. Hi. This is Joe Wintersstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men. Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives, and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius are misunderstood.

A son and Venus and Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, and different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all. If you're navigating your own transformation or just want to chart side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. What do you do in the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins. And if you can hear me, is where culture meets the soul.

a place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life, celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks. And we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff, identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore, loss that changes you, purpose when success isn't enough,

peace when your mind won't slow down, faith when it's complicated. some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to if you can hear me on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life.

And that's the unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSSK. and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its fault of secrets. Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history.

Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, doubt the case of Lucy Lettby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it, to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Lettby was.

No voicing. of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Lettby on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Take me through.

I don't think I've ever asked you. I've had Cindy on. I've had Michael on. I don't think I ever asked, like, I would love to just give everyone in myself, too, sometimes I wonder in the past, a breakdown of how it, went for the process of you, like, how did you get assigned which episodes within the season?

And how much advance did you know, like, oh, okay, I'm writing that one and this is the theme or, you know, breaking the stories. How, what's the process like or what was it like for Sex and City? So it pretty much stayed this same season to season, even as we got one or two more writers. But what we would do is we would talk at the beginning of the season about what we really wanted the arcs of each of these characters to be. So we knew where we were starting them and we knew where we were ending them. Things could change within that, but we knew, you know, Charlotte was going to go from here to here. So by the end of this season, we want X to have happened. And then we would start to break down within it. We would talk about ideas and kind of themes that were important

to touch on for each character. And then it would depend on the episode. So sometimes someone walk in with just a great story. Like, for instance, a woman's right to shoes. Okay, so I went to a party. I had to take my shoes off and it really was upsetting to me. And it got me thinking about what would happen if someone took my shoes. Because also when you're a small person, your shoes are a very important part of your outfit. And I wish I had known, I was going to take my shoes off.

I would have worn something different. Okay. But that, when you suddenly should walk in with something like that. And you go, okay, that's a great. thing to have happened. How can we use that to tell a story we want to tell? Which case was Carrie and her choice to be single and to spend her money how she wants to, right? Yeah. So it became a bigger episode around that. And in that case, because I came up with, it was my idea, I will write that episode. Sometimes it has to do with order of, you know,

we would kind of start with, sometimes with seniority, you know, Michael might write the first episode. I would write second episode. And then sometimes there would be an episode that you just knew a certain person had to write. Cindy had done her crazy trampoline stuff, not trampoline. Oh, yeah, yeah, a highwire. Yeah, yeah. What was it called? Yeah. Sounds like, yeah, yeah. She's not in on the Hudson River. Right. And so she wanted to write about that, you know, about taking chances and putting yourself up in the air, um, figuratively. And so, so sometimes it would be the thing that you knew that this person had to write because it's the thing that they really cared about thematically, um, or it,

or sometimes it was, hey, it's your turn to write an episode, but nobody would ever write an episode that they didn't feel really attached to. That was important to us. The people write what they what they could feel, right? When Miranda buys her house, I wrote that because I had bought my house and had gone through the exact same things. Such a good one. I love that episode.

Still, so great. So thrilling, too, that women now, single women now outranked single men on buying houses. No way. 25 years later, now the little women are buying more houses more than men. Incredible.

Incredible. And then you think about what Miranda went through, which is what I went through, which you keep checking the box. It says single woman, single woman. Yes. This is my life, Jenny. I know all about it.

So it's just, it's still happening. But we have outpaced men, not surprising. So that's a long description of kind of how it works. Sometimes we will break a lot of the episode in the room. We'll go through it and outline it and talk about what, because you also want to make sure that each of these characters are hitting a certain points in each episode that they need to hit, right? So it might be that the episode is primarily about Charlotte not having sex with her husband and what that means, but how does that fit

in with our other characters and stories we need to tell for them at the same time? And then it's a place of fun theme on top. And also the question, right? Yeah. It was interesting because the question doesn't necessarily apply as specifically as sometimes it does because the question was, are we getting older and wiser or just older right a really good question which applies in a lot of ways in a subliminal way to like friendships and learning what you have to do in a relationship but it was really more about applied literally to carry giving that speech to these women and them saying like well you're still single and you're oh my god yes like what do you have to teach us I know.

You don't seem any wiser. Oh, God. I seem older and single. That was scary, too. There were, the whole episode, there were so many times where I was like, you know. I know. And fun of fact, I'm sure you noticed that Sarah Jessica Stand-in was in the scene.

That's who it was. I was trying to figure that out. And she asked a question. We always wanted to give our stand-ins. We're terrific a chance to do on-camera work. And that was a case where she got to ask a question. That's so nice. So wait, let's go back to the writer's room.

Okay, so when you, so you would get, like, you might know at the beginning of the season, like, just have it marked out. Oh, I'll do episode number four, episode number eight or whatever, like theoretically. And you would know the arcs, as you said, which also we were so wonderfully shared, you know, that information at the beginning. And as you said, sometimes it would change. but Michael Patrick would, you know, set us down and say, like, this is the plan, just so that we could also kind of try to, you know, plan it out in our mind somewhat. And then sometimes when you got the script, it would be different or, you know, interesting, new twist or whatever. But then in terms of writing, so if you're in the room with everyone, would you do a rough draft

and then take it in the room for them to read? Like, how did that part work? Yeah, you would go away for all or part of a couple days. usually, you know, some episodes famously we wrote had to write very quickly because we just didn't have as much time. Splat was one of those where Cindy and I wrote it together and we wrote it in five days. Oh. Which, but we loved every minute of it because it was fun to write it together and also we knew exactly what we wanted to do. But yes, you go away from the room.

You tippy type at home. This is how we tippy type. It's just like a pterodactyl. Love it. And then you bring it back in and the room will read it and give thoughts. And then you'll go away again. And then it would go to HBO. But, you know, the thing, it's funny now looking back, we got very few notes from HBO.

They were amazingly supportive. And I wish the world were set up the same way to trust writers a bit more to know what they're doing. There are a lot of second guessing that happens. And so people end up giving, I think, a little more notes than they need to. I agree from what I know. And I'm not a writer, right? But I feel like because of the way that HBO was structured with Chris and Carolyn, really there weren't that many people.

And Carolyn had the good sense to just hire the right writers and let you guys do your thing, which is just so rare. Yeah. And you don't really don't find it anymore. You really don't. And I talked to her. I had lunch with her last week because we did the event for Sir Jessica. It was so nice to see her.

And we talked a little bit about like just the, you know, fear in the industry. You know, and fear just breeds everybody being so nervous and like overthinking everything. And it's hard to create or have these kind of breakout hits like how we were. And heeded rivalry because they went to Canada where they had no budget but they got to do what they wanted. And then luckily Casey was like, yes, I'll buy that. good call on Casey's part, right? But, you know, it probably wouldn't have gotten made in the way that it did if it were here with all the different tinkering. Yeah.

And look, I also, I am so respectful of the fact that there are a lot of executives scared for their jobs and things of doing all the time and things are certainly not the way they were. And there is this sense like, I need to show my worth. Right. But it has kind of beaten down the creative process. And it was such nirvana to be, I mean, so many ways, to be in the room we were in, to be working with the actors we were working with, to be telling the stories we were telling. But to be left alone to do that, it was really, it made the show better. It just did. Absolutely. Absolutely. And when Carolyn did have notes,

they were really smart. Right. And they were never about, I'm scared to do something. Right. Like, do we want to do that? Okay, tell me why. Right, right, right. That sounds just like her. Yeah, that's good. That's really good. You guys, this is so much fun that we are going to have to have a part two. So join us later in the week on RU.S. Charlotte. Hi, it's Joe Interesting, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast where we talk about astrology, natal charts and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today, I'm talking with my dear friend, Krista Williams. It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change.

Dance with the breakdowns. The embodiment of Pisces' intuition with Capricorn power moves. So I'm like delusionally proud of my chart. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for. China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition

and mistakes opened its fault of secrets. Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt the case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the U.S. in the UK in 2020. But what if we didn't get the whole story? I would just be made to fit. The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed.

What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two. families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpbright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.