Are You A Charlotte? - I'm Trey.... I'm Charlotte... with Drama Queen Sophia Bush (S3 E7 "Drama Queens)

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

One Tree Hill star Sophia Bush joins Kristin this week and this "Drama Queen" has an unique perspective talking about Drama Queens. Sophia, who was a Sex and the City fan when it aired, has a very different perspective when watching it now. Kristin analyzes Charlotte's "marriage book" and who she should be surrounding herself with to find a husband and, ultimately, the chance encounter when she meets Trey! Sophia defends Carrie in a situation where others have criticized her.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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In our show, we'll talk with skaters like Bobby Delphino on pushing style, culture, and the conversation forward. You break down the door, sick now like hold the door for everyone. I believe in that solely. So listen to Good Luck With That on IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? I can talk to you about this because you have a podcast, right? You actually have two that you just finished. We'll get to that in a second.

Sophia Bush is here, you guys. This is how we roll, okay? We just ease on in. I saw this post one time or like a whole thing from this lady on Instagram, who I don't know, talking about how, on Amy Pollard's podcast, everyone's like, what do you mean you're rolling? and she thought that was fake or something or weird

and why didn't they know if they'd been in the green room and I'm like oh honey we don't have green rooms right and we're used to film where there's like rolling and there's you know

boards what do you call it the clapper yeah like for us like we're just sitting in a chair and we're chatting and we're catching up we're talking about our kids and whatever

and then our very smart producers are just rolling because they're so so smart That's the way podcasts are, and we love it. I love it. Right? Because it's so easy. You also catch a little bit of magic that way I find.

I agree. I agree. That's why they're so smart to just do it and not wait for anybody to start. I like Easton just rubbing his palms together. Like, he-h-h-ha-ha. Totally, totally. So you, I love, I want to talk just briefly about drama queens. So you did this podcast, Drama Queens about One Tree Hill, the show that you were on that was massive, massive, massive.

I've never seen it. But when I was preparing to do, are you a Charlotte? They said to listen to Drama Queen's. So I listened to Drama Queen's, of course, not understanding what you guys were talking about. But really enjoying that there were three of you and you had such great camaraderie. And you got to kind of rehash memories as well as talking about the plot. Like, and how smart were you to do this when you started it? I mean, thank you.

Honestly, I think because I had started my solo show, work in progress, and loved it so much. when, honestly, it was a pandemic project for us, drama queens. You know, everything shut down. I was preparing to shoot a show in Canada. We all got sent home. I remember thinking, oh, yeah, we'll go back to work in two weeks. I mean, crazy. And then we were in lockdown, and I was FaceTiming with my girlfriends from the show.

And one night, you know, we were all kind of like, well, it's 8 o'clock on the East Coast, five o'clock out here, you know, we cracked bottles of wine together, and we're like, everybody's making dinner and we're talking, and I was like, wait a second, this is a show. This is something I think people would love. And when I pitched the idea, first to Hillary, and then she and I called Joy, we were kind of not sure what it would be. There weren't really rewatch shows yet. I think maybe Office Ladies was out

and that might have been the only one at that point and we didn't really know what it was going to be but the show wound up being such a kind of reclamation for us and you know not only were we so God we were so young on that show and so ill-equipped I think I mean aren't we all

yeah we haven't been to all the therapy women there now I don't think we were capable of having certain conversations or or even figuring out, you know, the line between personal and professional, which is so muddy when you're on location, especially. Of course. And you guys were North Carolina?

Yeah. I'm from South Carolina. I've filmed Wilmington. It's so great. It is. But it's lovely and different. Yeah, very different. And I think for us especially complicated because we were in this sort of no man's land. We were just older than all the college kids at UNCW.

Wow. But so much younger than and all the like golf dads who live there. Yeah, that's really young. So it was like a weird, it was just a weird, we were very isolated. And the show, I think, had great high highs and some low lows. And we were just able to process together in a way.

It was really cool. Which is so amazing and so beloved by fans. Like, what a gift to the fans. Yeah. The fans really, their love of the show, and I imagine you feel this with Sex and the City because it also is an evergreen show. It was really their love of the show

that sort of forced us back. You know, it brought us home. We kept being invited back to Wilmington. We kept being asked about it. And I think we finally hit a point where we thought, we want to experience it like they did. Like, what are all these people so into? That's fun.

I like that. And we got to have it. Totally. I think that's great. And I think for me, you know, when I do have obviously different people from the show on, it's really fun, of course, to have them in really easy and different. And hard, like, I was thinking about, I had seen Michael Patrick since we repped and just like that and decided not to go on.

And I said, you know, I'm still trying to process the end of that chapter. And he said, wait, you're trying to process in real time on the podcast? I said, yes, because I'm, you have to talk about it. Like you're in it. And even though I'm talking about sex in the city specifically, to me, it's all one thing. Well, it's a universe. Yeah. And I think, you know, the interesting thing, because we get asked about this a lot, even in terms of one tree hill, like, what would they be doing now?

Would you ever go back? Oh, God, yeah. They love to ask us that. We've investigated those things. And when you play someone for as long as I played Brooke Davis or you played Charlotte York, like they are a real person to you. You know, Brooke feels like a cousin of mine or a sister almost. That's well put, yeah. And I do have all sorts of thoughts about her life and her growth and her evolution.

Of course. And as a fan of your show, you know, I always say to people, they're like, do you have a one tree hill? I'm like, yeah, sex in the city. It was my one tree hill. Oh, that's so nice. Thank you. And as a viewer, I have loved revisiting these people with all of you. Oh, good.

But it's like. I guess not everyone feels that. Well, people, listen, people these days just want to hate everything so they don't have to admit how much they, like, I don't know, hate their own lives. So, it's like, here we are. Right, right, right. The internet is just such a cesspool. But I want to ask you another question, though, about this, because I do, there's definitely, like, different baskets, right? Like, I have a basket of, like, yes, our world is a mess, right?

And so people are, it's much safer to obsess about, for instance, I had Bridget Monaghan, who plays Natasha on. And we're both wearing our wire rim glasses. And this one lady went on there and commented, like, I don't care for the wire rim glasses. And I was like, wow, okay, this is what you want to comment on? Like, we talked about so many interesting things. But I do think it's much easier to do that than to think about our world and the crazy, horrible things happening in our world, right?

I totally agree. It's really hard to tackle that. So I get it. I get that, like, we're putting things out there and people are going to have their feelings and they might nitpick, and I get that. So that's one basket. But then I think a different basket. And this is where I'm super curious about your feelings on watching us,

but also if you think about revisiting One Tree Hill, to see the character's age, I think, really triggers people. Yeah. Like they don't really want sometimes to see us age. I guess it depends on the age of the fan, right? Yeah. So some fans, because then also the way HBO is, HBO Max, whatever I'm supposed to call it,

it feeds right from and just like that into the old Texan city. So it's like our younger selves are smack dab against our, you know current selves right yeah and that's upsetting for some people i guess younger people maybe do what i mean they don't necessarily want to confront that yeah what do you think of that i know it is weird you know i'm sure there's been great discourse about it i'm not chronically online enough oh i don't think there's great discourse about it please you know i guess for me i'm like i'm sure some amazing person on ticot has like gone through the social science studies of this or something But I will say as someone who is both a fan and in the ways we all do, we know each other.

As a woman, it's been like so, I don't want to be overdramatic or melodramatic, but I mean it. It's painful to watch the way exceptional women will just, to your point, be nitpicked and dragged and discussed. like things, not people. Yes. And, you know, I caught myself rolling my eyes when you, you know, you said the thing about the woman who made the comment about the wire room glasses. On the one hand, I'm like, keep it to yourself. Right. Like, shut the fuck up.

And then on the other hand, I'm like, you know, I do understand that people are, everyone's so stressed and so anxious and so worried and things are really crazy. It's a crazy time to be on the earth. And so I get that the pressure valve. gets released. Exactly. I think often in the wrong directions. Yeah. But I think the larger discourse,

how dare you age, if you do anything about aging, how dare you do something? You're so vain. If you don't do enough, why are you letting yourself go? If they decide you've done too much. Oh, yeah.

Don't you have any friends who said stop? Totally. If you, like, what were you thinking? Oh, my God. I mean on and on, I know. And I just, I'm like,

hear? Like, nobody's talking, nobody's talking about that with any of the dudes. Like, are people picking Brad Pitt's face apart? I don't know. I think they are. Well, yeah, recently I do see men being pulled into the, yes, the work. It's now a little bit going towards them. And sometimes I feel glad about it. Sometimes I also feel sad about it. Yeah. Is what I'm saying? Like, it is a mixed, but I also feel, I feel, and that's a different, we're in a different basket now, just how I separate it in my mind when I'm thinking about it. And it helps, me to dissect it, you know, to dissect like what is actually driving these conversations. And in terms of the aging situation, my feeling is that, because I'm significantly older than

you, right? So like we have been, oh yeah. Yes. Okay. Definitely. I'm 60 years old, Sophia. I am. You hot bitch. You nuts, right? Thank you. I love it. I love it to get the good compliments. Thank you so much. I'll take it. I'll take it. I'm like, I'm like, well, I do feel thrilled to be alive in this moment where women are just not giving up. Right. But it is this struggle. It is this struggle. Like you look at it to be more.

I mean, what a incredible situation. Like if you listen to her talk and she says, I'm creating my own rules. Yes. DeMe. Create your own rules. We do not have to live by other people's rules. We don't. We don't.

And I think we just need to say this to each other. other. That doesn't mean that I'm going to do everything that DeMe is doing or whatever it is or not. I'm also not going to judge her. She is creating her own existence. She is living by her own rule. She is doing what she wants. More power to her. I love it so much. And I think it's so powerful. Like whenever I see her talking about it, I'm like, oh, God, it's just so refreshing. Because that's what you need to remember. Like we can create our own existence. We can say to ourselves, you know what? I'm not going to let this cultural morass of insanity about aging get inside me any more than it already is, right? It's already there. But I can live and find joy in what I find and I've got little kids and they keep me young and I'm running around with them. And, you know, I don't understand what I'm doing in personal relationships, but I kind of never have. You know what would be different about that, right? Well, we have so much to talk about on and off this podcast.

Totally, totally, totally, totally. I have a question about that. Yeah. Because I think there's really something elemental about aging. And some of my buckets are what a privilege it is to age. Yeah. We're so lucky to be alive. Yes.

I'm also, to this point, I'm thrilled to be alive at a time where women are rewriting the rules, where you are the picture of 60. We're not told that we have to look like the golden girls by the time we're 45. And by the way, no shade. One of my favorite shows of all time. Of course. But women were put into a box of being, quote, elderly. Right.

By the time they were in their mid-40s. Like, I don't feel elderly. I still feel like I'm 27. And you look like you're 27. Well, thank you. I'm smarter than I was at 27 for sure. Me too. You know, I think about that privilege.

I think about the way we're critiqued. I think about the way we are often and sort of historically, categorically, discarded. And then I also think about this sort of subconscious aspect of aging and especially over the generation that we kind of came of age, if you will, from your show really setting the tone

into the Dawson's Creek, into my show like the conversations are changing. What millennial or I guess what Gen Z women are going through now is so like leaps and bounds above sort of permission, opportunity, all the things we really had. We were kind of breaking the rules. Now they're rewriting them. Most definitely. And I think about watching the episode of your show I watched to prep for today, thinking about my

own, thinking about the conversations we had off camera, there is such pressure to achieve certain things by a certain time. Yeah. When you just said like, oh, you know, I don't know what I'm doing in personal relationships. I feel like I did

that definition of insanity thing over and over and over again expecting a different result for so long until I finally was like, well, I have no fucking idea what I'm doing. And then I just decided

to leave the rat race all together. But I really had to self-examine the pressure I put on myself that was more powerful than I realized. Yeah. Like I couldn't see it. until it was in hindsight.

That's my hindsight's 2020, right? For sure, yeah. About what approaching 40 and knowing I wanted to be a parent and what all of these things meant and perhaps things I ignored because of so much conditioning. And it's like, I don't know.

You've played a character who was so pressured like that. Yes. You've talked about these things. You've broken your own mold. You adopted your two beautiful kids. You know, you set your own rules. I did.

Like, did playing Charlotte, did working on sex in the city help you confront some of those things? You know, the interesting thing for me, and obviously all four of us are very different. We're very different from our characters, though no one believes us, though we all have really similarities to, obviously, because you can't play someone that long without, like, the bleeding over. Yeah, but I mean, yeah, it's, yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Also, I think for us, the interesting thing was to having our writers, know us so well and be so close to us and really specifically right for us. Yeah.

That part also bled the lines a lot. But I think for me, my kind of like origin story of the whole, my idea of relationships, Kristen, I'm talking about, I grew up in the South where everybody was very, very focused, especially because, you know, the generation that I was in, very focused on getting married. You were supposed to get married. If young women went to college, they were supposed to be. Yes. You know what I'm saying.

So, you know, that's what I was surrounded by. My parents were not that way. My parents were more like hippies. They're now reformed. You don't know what I'm saying? You know how it goes. But like I was born in Boulder, Colorado. My dad taught at CU.

It was hippie central. They, like I had Ms. Magazine was on our table, you know, at home, right? So they were not of that, but that's what I was surrounded by at school and growing up. And those were my best friends. They were, that's what they were into. But part of me was just like absolutely. not, I must get out of here. I want to be an actress.

I want to go to New York. That is all that mattered to me. And I would say when I was young, I'm never getting married. I'm never getting married. And I didn't. Which I think is really funny. And I'm so fine with that. Do you know what I mean?

But like I didn't ever buy in because to me, the conditioning seemed so intense. Yeah. I just thought, do all those people actually want that? Have they even thought about what they want or what the choices are or what the options are? Because to me, it seemed like the world was completely open and you could do whatever you wanted. I wanted to travel. I wanted to have adventure. I wanted to act.

Obviously, all of us who want to act were a little bit, you know, to the side anyway, because it's a strange thing to do. Totally. But a wonderful, a totally insane and wonderful, like magical exploration, you know, it's like a lifelong exploration, which is one of the things that I love the most about it. Let's talk about, so back to you, ask me about the marriage thing and everything. And the thing that I love, and when we're this part of the show, this episode is called Drama Queen's, and it's when Charlotte meets Trey, which is so exciting finally. But it's also when she has this nightmare book, Marriage Incorporated. And so for me, the thing that I, it's fun to rewatch it because what I remember of it, because I'm really drawing on the people I grew up with, right? And the kind of the vibe of everyone has to get married and you're under this pressure to do it by, you know, 25 or,

whatever to have met the person. I mean, it was, it was hardcore pressure. And to have it be so perfect and beautiful, and he's supposed to be perfect and beautiful. And then wedding and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All the things that Charlotte was really important to her. That's what I drew on was what I had seen there. It wasn't what I thought or what I felt. But I certainly knew about it. But they would come up with new ways for me to express it. And I remember this book. And I would just be like, oh, my gosh. And often I would have to have like a page, because I would have to have a page, obviously the others don't agree with me, right? So I would have my didactic Charlotte like,

I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. And they would all roll their eyes and I would just be like, oh, you know. But I knew that was my job, right? My job was to be this other voice. And then what I loved, because I knew from Michael Patrick, the goal was that, yes, she was going to get what she wanted or what she thought she wanted. And it wasn't going to really make her happy.

And because I knew that was the goal, it really helped me. And that got formulated before this season, or I should say, really like rarefied or refined, I guess. Because it was kind of there before, but they never said to me, we didn't know for sure the tray plan, right? So like early on I would have like speeches. I think I have a, I get the rules book out or the rules, like all the nightmare things. And I would just be like, oh my God, this is so hard. But I know that people out there have been conditioned in the same way. And I want to represent them or whatever, and I would try my best.

But what I love here is that we have so many, so many holes in this episode, Drama Queens, and so many ways of looking at intimacy and relationships and what do we really want versus what are we told we should want. And that is what I think our show did so well. And I knew it at the time, but to be able to look back on it and then also to have it still resonate now, it's kind of amazing. It's also really interesting. It's one of those shows, and we've had this experience rewatching hours. The age you watch it at, you see something new. For sure.

And based on your life experience, you see something new. And something that I realized, watching this episode back, seeing Charlotte's goal. It is. It's exactly what you're talking about. It's the goal she has been raised with. It is a goal that for her is very overt. It is a goal that I know, at least for myself, was more subconscious and much more when I look back

and really unpack it, bless my wonderful therapist, I can really see that so much of it was also about repair. And it struck me watching the Carrie and Aden storyline in this portion of the show, because I didn't identify when I was watching the show when it was airing and I was in college. And my college best friend Brenna and I would watch every weekend. It was our thing. I didn't identify that Carrie was having her trauma triggered by a good man, by a lack of a problem, by being chosen.

Suddenly, it's like everything goes haywire. It feels backwards to your reality. And I was like, oh, that's a woman who has some real relationship trauma. And I wonder what her childhood trauma is. And I'm so, and I was like, oh, man. Like, I'm really, I got some lessons in, in this life that I see all of this in a different way. And it is, it's still really, really relevant. As much as you go like, oh, the book or whatever.

Right. You know. Right, right, right. It's still, I agree. When I watched this one, because, okay, so I don't think I ever said, this is called Drama Queens, which is also why it's so funny that Sophia is here. I know, I love it. Because that's her podcast or her other podcast.

Work and Progress, still functioning, so still going, which is wonderful. Drama Queens is wrapped. Drama Queens is wrapped, which is crazy. I'm glad you got to do it. Yeah, we're working on some supplemental goodies for our people. Oh, that's fun. That's good. That's fun.

Yes. Everyone will be happy to hear that. So this episode, this is so crazy. I love to read the date. The air date was July 23, The year 2000, you guys. It's so funny. Doesn't that sound like a science fiction weird thing?

Like we're in 2025 and this was the year two. Like what? What? Yes. What is happening? Yeah, I was heading off to college. Adorable. Oh my God.

So, cute. So we were working on our little butts off in Manhattan so tired by this point because this would have been like halfway through the season. This is 307. I think we did a lot. Maybe we did 18. Back in the olden days where we did a lot of episodes, I'm sure you remember. And it was directed by.

the wonderful Alison Anders. Did you ever meet Allison? Such a great director. She was an indie film director. We went through quite a, in the beginning, we tried to get female indie film directors. And sometimes it went great and sometimes maybe not so perfectly or whatever. And also male indie film directors. Sure.

Also very interesting. But Allison just sweetest, sweetest, so positive. And she would just be like, baby, that was good. Let's just do it again. You're like, okay. You know, super easy. She created just so much comfort, you know, on the set, which was nice. And written by Darren Starr, which also surprised me because by then I thought he was already kind of like off and doing his next thing because that's what he does.

You know, he creates and moves on, creates and moves on, basically. But here he is writing a really, really excellent episode right smack in the middle of the third season, which the third season is my favorite season. I don't know why. But like for me, this is when everything gell. you know all of the connections of the storylines you know also the locations and we have directors who are like amping it up visually like all the things it really feels like when you think about sex in the city and then you go back and you watch sometimes you watch the first season and you're like wait what show is this it's like season three it's really your show yeah definitely definitely i mean season one is fascinating it's amazing yeah i had remembered it as horrible but when I rewatched I was like no it was great it was just just different really like it would go one way and then it would go the other way and then like it's so dark you can't even see us sometimes you know what I'm saying like it's physically dark yes yes which is also very

interesting crazy very crazy it was 1998 or nine oh yeah yeah yeah yeah have you ever listened to those true crime shows and found yourself with more questions than answers And what is this? How is that not a story we all know? What's this? Where is that? Why is it wet? Boy, do we have a show for you?

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Dad had a strong belief. the devil was attacking us. Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths. Gabe Ortiz became one of the highest-ranking law enforcement officers in Texas. 32 years, total law enforcement experience. But his brother Larry, he stayed behind

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May 24th, 1990, a pipe bomb explodes in the front seat of environmental activist Judy Barry's car. I knew it was a bomb the second that it exploded. I felt it ripped through me with just a force more powerful and terrible than anything that I could describe. In season two of Rip Current, we ask, who tried to kill Judy Barry and why? She received death threats before the bombing. She received more threats after the bombing. The man and woman who were heard had planned to lead a summer of militant protest against logging practices in Northern California. They were climbing trees and they were sabotaging logging equipment in the woods.

The timber industry, I mean, it was the number one industry in the area, but more than it was the culture. It was the way of life. I think that this is a deliberate attempt to sabotage our movement. Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Pie. or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Dr. Lori Santos from the Happiness Lab here. It's the season of giving, which is why my podcast is partnering with Give Directly,

a nonprofit that provides people in extreme poverty with the cash they need. This year, we're taking part in the Pods Fight Poverty campaign. And it's not just the Happiness Lab. Some of my favorite podcasters are also taking part. Think Jay Shetty from On Purpose, Dan Harris from 10% Happier, and Dave Desteno from How God Works and more. Our goal this year is to raise $1 million, which will help over 700 families in Rwanda living in extreme poverty.

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So join me and your favorite podcasters in the Pots Fight Poverty campaign. Head to give directly.org slash happiness lab to learn more and make a contribution. And if you're a first-time donor, giving multiplier will even match your gift. That's give directly.org slash happiness lab to donate. If one of us wins, we all win. I'm Ashley Reifeld, and I'm the host of the women's skateboarding podcast. Good luck with that. Good luck with that is a skateboarding podcast that is part cultural record, part news brief, mostly group.

therapy and a place to talk about the past, present, and future of women and gender expansive skateboarding. This week, me and my co-host, Nora Vascenzelos and Alex White, we have Fabiana delfino on the show, a professional skateboarder from Florida, whose grit was forged in a family of athletes. Tune in to hear how she broke into the boys' club, what it takes to be pro, and why just being grateful you're here shouldn't be the price of entry. Maybe the industry thinks that we just started skating five years ago, because that's

when they maybe started paying attention. It's a no-fluff conversation about putting in the years, stacking clips and receipts, and still having to prove your worth while the industry catches up. You break down the door, sick, now, like, hold the door for everyone. We created good luck with that because we want to share our experience of existing in an industry that wasn't always built for everyone. So listen to good luck with that on iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Let's talk about the episode for a second.

Okay. So the thing that I love. love because I hadn't I watched at the time and so now I'm rewatching for the first time like through life people would always say like oh don't you watch I mean if if I walk by a TV I'm like oh there we are you know but I would keep moving because I didn't want to be stuck in the past right but that's what's kind of interesting about really okay intentionally let's look at it yes I like it it's it's amazing and and I can kind of get what the fans got right yeah maybe not 100% because I also remember what was going on

on on the set that day or whatever was going on with me or you don't know what I'm trying to say you have other memories but in terms of certainly the other storylines like when I watch Aiden and Carrie here I'm so fascinated and I have so many thoughts

I don't think I had all these thoughts back then I think I was just focused on myself and what I was doing and so excited that tree's finally coming obviously but like the whole entire thing about intimacy and also if you look at Stephen Miranda also they're having such an interesting conversation about what is true intimacy. Do we actually want it?

Are we ready for it? These are different questions, right? And we ask them, but we aren't going to go into the backstory like you're saying about trauma. I don't think we literally ever say the word trauma on our show. No. It wasn't. It wasn't part of the cultural conversation. It definitely wasn't.

At the time. I think we, I'm kind of wanting to have another one of our writers on again. because I had Michael on in the beginning. And we've had, I've had Jenny and Cindy on, who are our two female writers, which I think that's all the writers we have at this point, Darren, Michael, Jenny, Cindy. But I wonder, like, when we're talking about these intimacy-type storylines,

I wonder how much they toyed with thinking about how we got here or the past. Because there was a concerted effort not to do that because everything has to move so quickly. Like, all these things happen in 23 minutes. right yeah it's got to like bam bam bam so we have to have our are you know down low and we have to have her like our coffee shop right where we're all this and that and this and that and this and that and then we have to have carry writing which is her much more introspective i wonder you know when she does say some really really deep and interesting things but the thing that i love here is that so carrie's with aden

aden is amazing he is in her words too good to be true she doesn't know if this is actually what she wants. And this is after two years, you know, struggling to get big to commit and or even talk to her about his feelings, right? Now she has this amazing guy who wants her to meet his parents. She does not want to. Yeah. I don't even remember all of this at all. Like when I rewatched it. I don't remember it one little bit. Right. And I think it's super interesting, but I also think there's a part of it because Aiden is so not New York. There's a part of it where it's also like Carrie is so New York, right? It's not really a common thing.

Like, I don't know if you remember in second season, she follows big one day. She doesn't know where he is, and he's at church with his mom. She's never met his mom. Then she's hurt that he doesn't want her to meet his mom. And he's like, this is something I do with my mom. I go to church.

So then she takes Miranda and they drop the hymn book down the balcony. It's like a whole drama, right? But also, like, that's unusual. I never remember meeting any. I'm trying to think now, like, you just didn't meet people's parents in New York. It wasn't a thing, really so much. True what I'm saying? Unless you were serious and then you traveled to meet them.

You traveled to where they were from. To wherever they were from. Exactly. So I do think there's a bit of like Aden's not New York, which is also why he's interesting and different. Big's very New York, obviously. So there's kind of a bit of that going on, but they don't really say that, which I think is also interesting. But Carrie's obviously very New York. And that's what I think part of her going like, well, I don't even know if I want to meet his parents.

Which also, like, he puts up with that. I know. It's interesting. There's a really sweet moment when they're walking down the sidewalk together. And she goes, you know, it's the whole thing of like, why aren't you married? Why are you still single? What's wrong with you? Will your parents be able to tell me what's wrong with you?

And John Corbett, good God, that man is charming. I know. And the way he just laughs at her, he is so, and it's not crass, it's not cruel. he's very tenderly amused by her. And he just, he's like, you're crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what he doesn't say but you see on his face is it's the kind of crazy I like. Definitely.

That's so true. It's such a true moment and they did such a great job as actors together. Oh, yeah, he's incredible. And there's something wonderful, I think. And to me, it does speak to intimacy. when someone who really loves you is watching you spin about something and also knows it's not about them at all

and it's just like you're going to spin, okay, I'll watch. Definitely, definitely. And not get caught up. Right, I agree, I agree. And very different, obviously, than her dynamic with Big where she spins and he kind of judges or I feel like it even makes him more remote. Yes.

Yes, which is sad. Anytime she has human emotion that is imperfect, he can't handle it. Right, which is, ew. And Aden is both figuratively and physically. It's like he's a big container for her feelings. Which is amazing. Yeah.

Amazing. I know amazing. Amazing. I mean, yes, sometimes I think about where we know they go. Mm-hmm. I know. I know. I know.

I know. I still have to. Is processing what I know and then what I'm seeing in the olden days and trying to chart it all, you know? Yeah. But I also feel, and people have said to me, oh, well, that doesn't make sense or that doesn't make sense, but you change as you live. Yeah. So you can't necessarily know at 35 or whatever our characters are. I think we're roughly 35 at this point, and we're not real people, it should be said.

But also, life changes you as you're living it. That's what's supposed to happen, right? Yeah. So you don't know what you're going to be like at 60 or 55, when you're 35, different things you're going to happen to you that are going to shape you. Yes. Right. I think people don't realize that.

Well, and it's part of why I think it's so crazy when you talk about, not crazy, but, I mean, sort of societally, what we all do. The idea that, you know, where you were raised, women were supposed to be married by 25, you're supposed to go to college and get your MRS. Your prefrontal cortex is not done developing. I know. Like, your literal brain is not the brain of an adult. adult until you're 26 or 27 years old and I'm going what in the world people are letting people get married I know oh people get married younger than that definitely I know I know but I mean the world is changing because definitely I don't think I don't think that pressure is there now in the same way

yeah at the same age I think the pressure might be there I read something over the weekend about not just getting married but success like career success and how 35 is what they, now, younger people have in their minds. Like, I need to be, you know, like, successful at 35, whatever that means for me. Yeah. Which is also, nothing's true, right? Like, that's not true, you know? Yeah.

You might have one job at 35 and then be miserable and want to leave it and find another job or another calling or another, you know, mission in life. You have no idea. It never ends. And that was part of the reason we wanted to do and just like that is that life is not over. It's still an adventure. You still don't know what might happen. There's still decisions and life-changing events and things happen. Why pretend somehow that when you hit 45 or 50 or whatever arbitrary number you want to come up with it, your life is over. No way. No. I think all the time

about phases. You know, I was having this conversation just yesterday with a friend and I said, I might I might do something completely different with my life at 50. I don't know. Yeah. I think about the same thing. We're at 60 or at 70. Like, why not? Right. No, you can do whatever you want. Yeah.

It's a great thing to remember. It's important. Yeah. I know, I agree. Okay. Let's talk about the episode. Sometimes it's hard to go back. But we will. We will. We will. So what I love, I love, love, love this whole intimacy conversation. So Carrie has what she thought she wanted.

Yep. He is basically choosing her. and now she's stressing she can't sleep at night she's wake up in the middle of the night she doesn't know why so interesting right and then she goes he says he wants to

you know introduce her to the parents and she panics and he obviously is very patient with her which I think is amazing and then and he says to her it's no big deal I have a life I'm just making room for you in it I know right yeah I mean my gosh

So then she comes to the opera with me, which is adorable, because I was trying to get, I've left out myself. So I've got the book, Marriage Incorporated. I assume it's a real book. I don't even know. My God, insane. And it says, I'm at the coffee shop with them. And I tell them, this book says not to hang out with my single dysfunctional friends that I need to hang out with my friend. I can't believe they don't just like, you know, like scratch Charlotte out of a, you know what I mean?

Like, what on earth? I'm so bold. but and also that to me is a crazy thing to say yes like wow like come on well and and but what I think is sweet about it and I think clearly the dynamic of these four women you know these friends know each other yes you you not only say the thing that could really sting but then you explain that the book explains that you're supposed to treat finding a mate the way you would treat starting a business. There is a checklist.

You are going to hang out with married friends because they've got good single friends. And it's like, it's insane. It's bonkers. But of course someone wrote it. Oh, definitely. And of course people have taken this advice. Yes. And I mean, thank God they love her, you know.

And they're just like, okay, Charlotte. Like, sure, sweetheart. But also then, I mean, to me, it's also kind of crazy to think that the married people's friends would somehow be different than the people that us. single ladies would meet how why they're just single people it makes no sense but whatever charlotte's going to try what charlotte's going to try so she's hounding this guy who we've never seen this couple before the apparently charlotte has his other friends dennis wife he's she's hounding him to set her up with one of the single friends and he's dodging her kind of right and she can't figure it out so she had

tickets to the opera and she had said to him oh great i have tickets to the opera oh yes and but he hasn't gotten back to her so she doesn't know what's going on so So she asked Carrie, which is kind of wonderful because, first of all, I remember that day, and I remember going to the opera. And I was so excited that I got to go with Carrie because sometimes I don't get to do the walk and talks, you know? I always wanted to do the walk and talks. So I'm like, oh, we get to go to the opera. It's even better. It's even better than a walk and talk.

Because, I mean, a scene at the opera is always a great thing in film, right? I mean, yeah, it's a kind of a, it's done a lot when you look at things. Like, it's in action films. It's in, I've just watched the morning show. They had an opera. you know, scenario in the morning show. I know, I think it's because opera's so dramatic. Like, you wouldn't necessarily show people at a play.

Though we do do that later on, because Smith is an actor, right? But, like, opera is the height of emotion. So I think that's partly why. And it's so New York. Right, and you're so dressed. The opera at Lincoln Center. It's so. So New York.

And it, and I realize when you're talking about how Carrie's struggling, because Aiden is so not New York, she goes and has the most New York night and sees big. Exactly. With her little tiny, you know, binoculars, she sees Big and Natasha and then she gets up and dramatically leaves.

I know. I also, it's funny because I don't remember Carrie being so dramatic. She's pretty dramatic. It's interesting. It's interesting. I don't really remember that. I think at the time

I really felt all Carrie's feelings. Oh, totally. Yeah. Well, it's part of the discourse even now when people are like that that was this woman so many of us identified with and we look back and go like

this is unhinged behavior but at the time it didn't seem to be and I think there's something really interesting about how just unhinged society was in general when you think about the early aughts and how women were being treated oh gosh you know what I mean

it's like things were nuts so sure she might seem nuts now but she really didn't at the time but the other thing is that I think Sarah Jessica as an actor is so grounded that when you look, if you take a step back and go, oh, she's so dramatic

how she leaves the opera, but she makes it so real. It's so real. It's so honest. She cannot sit across from them, knowing they're there. And by the way, she even says,

in her voiceover, she says not to be dramatic. Or in the most dramatic exit or whatever. She says it. She acknowledges it. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right.

She's aware. There's so much self-awareness. Yes. And we know that because of the voiceover and because of the writing. And that's why we can kind of be inside those feelings. And I think there was something when it's dawning on me in this moment. You know, yes, she did such a beautiful job playing Carrie.

And I think humanized Carrie for us. And I think for any of us who's trying to get over our good girl syndrome, the idea that this woman said, I can't be here and listened to her feelings and took care of herself instead of staying to please her friend and staying to prove she could. That's a good point. And sitting in that seat panicking for the rest of the opera.

That's true. She just said, nope, I can't do it and I'm not going to. You're right. That's actually a big deal. I agree. And it also goes back to, I think, the freedom that they all feel with each other, meaning the four of us. Like I can say this crazy thing about,

I can't hang out with you guys. because you're dysfunctional single people, which is a lot to say. And they're just like, yeah, okay, we get it. You're Charlotte. And then she can say, like, I've got to leave and I can just be fine. You know what I'm saying?

Like, you know, I do think that that is also a testament to how well they know each other, how much they love each other and the room they have for each other to be their full selves. Yes. Right? Which is a beautiful thing and very thankful that they did that for us, you know? You guys, this is so much fun that we are going to have to have a part two. so join us later in the week on RU.S. Charlotte. I know he has a reputation, but it's going to catch up to him.

Gabe Ortiz is a cop. His brother Larry, a mystery Gabe didn't want to solve until it was too late. He was the head of this gang. You're going to push that line for the cause. Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it. When Larry's killed, Gabe must untangled a dangerous past, one that could destroy everything he thought he knew. Listen to the Brothers Ortiz on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. I knew it was a bomb the second that it exploded. I felt it ripped through me. In season two of RipCurrent, we asked, who tried to kill Judy Berry and why? They were climbing trees, and they were sabotaging logging equipment in the woods. She received death threats before the bombing.

She received more threats after the bombing. I think that this is a deliberate attention. to sabotage our movement. Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab here. It's the season of giving. And this year, my podcast, The Happiness Lab, is partnering with Give Directly,

a nonprofit that provides people in extreme poverty with the cash they need as part of the Pods Fight Poverty campaign. Our goal this year is to raise $1 million, which will bring over $1,000. 700 families out of extreme poverty. Your donation will put cash directly in the hands of these families in need, and they'll get to decide how to use it, whether that's school transportation, purchasing livestock, or starting a business. Plus, if you're a first-time donor, your gift will be matched by giving multiplier,

which means more money for those in need. Visit givedirectly.org slash happiness lab to learn more and to donate. That's give directly.org slash happiness lab. If one of us wins, we all win. I'm Ashley Rayfeld, the host of the podcast. Good luck with that. Good luck with that is a skateboarding podcast about the past, present, and future of women and gender expansive skateboarding.

In our show, we'll talk with skaters like Bobby Delphino on pushing style, culture, and the conversation forward. You break down the door, sick now like hold the door for everyone. I believe in that solely. So listen to Good Luck With That on IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On the podcast health stuff, we are tackling all the health questions

that keep you up at night. I'm Dr. Priyankawali, a double board certified physician. And I'm Hurricane Dabolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled Do I have scurvy at 3 a.m? And on our show, we're talking about health in a different way,

like our episode where we look at diabetes. In the United States, I mean, 50% of Americans are pre-diabetic. How preventable is type 2? Extremely. Listen to Health Stuff on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.