Are You A Charlotte? - Let’s Talk about Sex (with Dr. Hillary Goldsher)

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

Kristin enlists the expertise of Clinical Psychologist Dr. Hillary Goldsher to analyze the notable topics that Sex and the City dives into right out of the gate. The topics are as important and relevant today in addition to how provocative they were then. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, I'm Kristin Davis and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? So you guys, this is exciting. I have my very first expert on. She is Dr. Hilary Goldscher. She's a clinical psychologist based in Beverly Hills. She has over 10 years of experience of being a therapist and she is incredibly smart. So we're gonna talk to her about some some general issues and topics of Sex and the City but also we're gonna talk to her about Bay of Married Pigs and the sex tape storyline. Okay. Hi Dr. Goldscher, thank

you for joining us. It's so nice to be here. It's so fun. Wow, wow. I'm so excited. You're my first expert. I'm happy to train you on being an expert. Love it, love it. But part of the reason that I'm excited to have you on is that one of the things that I want to talk about in general with the show and rewatching, especially the beginning of Sex and the City. I don't know if you have rewatched or if you've seen the beginning long time ago in the beginning or more recently. But I saw it as a fan a long time ago and in preparation for this podcast I watched I think episode one no no season one episode two and three. Oh, great. Okay. So you missed the pilot, which is fine, because my big questions do have to do with two and three.

But I mean, really what I want is I'm so kind of, I had not rewatched it until this podcast, because for me, I didn't want to live in the past. You know, I felt like that's the past. And in my mind, I had made it somehow less good or whatever than like what we did as we went along. I don't know exactly why, but you know, we got this kind of wonderful opportunity

to develop as we went. You know, HBO really let us develop and change and shift. So like to me, in the beginning, we really didn't know what we were doing. We filmed the whole first season without it being on the air. We didn't know the response. We were so nervous about how people were going to respond. And in some ways that makes sense because, A, there weren't really four women talking

about relationships and sex so openly, right? So there was a lot of kind of shock and, oh my God. But then also, when I watched the first episode when we got picked up, which is Models Immortals, there's this crazy sex tape storyline. And I didn't remember it at all. Okay? Like I was, I was just like, what is happening? And like no apology for filming with no consent. Right. No apology whatsoever. And so I want to talk to you about those types of issues and how we've changed since then culturally,

like the cultural kind of norms and conversations around things, I feel like have changed. And I think that's a really good example. And I'm shocked that we, I mean, I have thoughts and I want to know your thoughts on the fact that Carrie had to sit there with them and watch it and say like, I need a cigarette. Like, what's that about? You know, what is that? What do you think? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so interesting because it, it's so deliberately cast everyone in the perceived cultural roles that we're supposed to embody, right? Carrie is sort of cast as the like

bothered witness. Right. Right. That isn't supposed to have any other reaction, but like, I'm a little hot and bothered and maybe a little uncomfortable. And isn't that sort of cute and sweet? Right. Right. And the idea of impact from the male's perspective, like, how does anyone feel in this scenario isn't really adopted or explored. Having said that, I mean, just to hold both sides, we can talk about our opinions or thoughts in a moment, but holding both sides, there is sort of an interesting unapologetic freedom around sex. Right. freedom around sex, no shock value around these sort of fantasies and ideas and thoughts.

And there's something interesting about that. I mean, we've pivoted to a completely other place currently, for the most part. And perhaps something is lost. I don't think we would want to retain the lack of like consent and boundaries and like open conversation about what's comfortable to people. But perhaps there's like a spontaneity and an even enjoyable impulsivity that is lost in translation. That's a good point. I mean, I do think that in the beginning of the show and from the column that Candace Bushnell had written, the non-judgmental part was huge, right? That like, they're kind of just reporting Candace and her alter ego that she created for the column are just reporting what they've heard. You know what I'm saying? They're not part of it.

They're not saying, yes, this is fine. They're just like, this is what happened. This is what this dude is doing, you know? And that's what he's doing, you know? Which is interesting from so many perspectives. And I feel like, yes, at the time, it was a huge kind of taking the lid off, right? Like freedom to discuss, how does everyone feel about it?

What would you do? What do you think? You know, which was great. And that's partly why I wanted to do this podcast is that so many of those themes and kind of issues we talked about are so interesting to look at now. Like, are they still relevant? Are they not relevant?

And I mean, obviously, were we to come across this guy now, it would be a whole different reaction, and rightly so. But on the other hand, I think at the time, because it wasn't really discussed, this guy now, it would be a whole different reaction. And rightly so. But on the other hand, I think at the time, because it wasn't really discussed, there was a freedom. We were trying to say like, we're gonna put it out there. We're not gonna necessarily judge it. The different characters might have

different feelings about it. Like remember when Carrie then tells Samantha like, oh, you don't wanna go over there because this guy's filming models with, and then she's like, well, you don't want to go over there because this guy's filming models with, and then she's like, well, I want to be filmed. And I thought when I was watching it, maybe that was Candace and or whoever she was writing about kind of trying to take back the power of that.

What do you make of Samantha's? Yes, I was just going to say, I think Samantha's POV in general is actually really valuable because with her, it's not really about consent per se. She's sort of always up for whatever and will narrate her feelings and desires with sort of unabashed energy. And there's something about a woman, even now, but certainly back then, a woman taking responsibility

for her own sexual journey, her own sexual pleasure. Yeah. It's curious and excited and energetic and connected and unashamed. Yes. So powerful. Right. It's something that I think is so completely relevant. I mean, today versus then, there is more dialogue around that and more embodiment of that dynamic. But many women still feel like, is it okay for me to talk about my own orgasm in the context of my relationship with my girlfriends, with my therapist?

It's still to some people not okay. Or maybe there's a limit to how much you can discuss it or how much you can focus on it. One's own actual desire and journey. So I love that piece of it and the through line in terms of Samantha's character and perspective, you know, kind of throughout the series as far as I can remember, really holds space for that. It does. And it's very unique. Like, it's hard to come up with in your mind other characters in film or television who are so free and so connected. She's not free where you're like, that girl's damaged.

You're like, she's just, that's who she is. And she's not going to apologize. And there's something so amazing. And I feel like that's why people, there are so many people who are so connected and resonant with Samantha because she's so powerful and such a great example that like most of us would struggle to try to be like.

Absolutely, and relative to men's sexual journey, both back then and now it's sort of standard fare for men to owe and direct and dedicate like machismo and energy to their sexual pursuits. But for women that's still, even today, absolutely if we ran into Samantha, I'll just give you a reaction to it in her community,

in terms of the people that she touched and interacts with. So I love the representation. I love the idea that there's still room to think about how do women like on a macro and a micro level embody their sexuality in a way that of course reflects boundaries and pace and rhythm and changing of minds, right? But also, it's like, what, what am I curious about? What am I interested in? What am I excited about? Like being able to hold both is an amazing notion. It is an amazing notion. And I definitely feel that we're still struggling, you know, to get there. And we're, I feel kind of confused in a way. I don't know if I'm reading into it, but like, for me, so here we've been doing the show You know we started in 1997 which is insane to think about right like so long ago And yet now you can still talk about almost all the different themes like if you look at the pilot the pilot was ghosting We didn't call it that but it was ghosting and then it was can women have sex like men

which is basically what we're talking about like For whatever reason the way that men are socialized and or hardwired, like I'm not sure, you know, which it is. They have a lot more freedom, it seems like overall. Maybe this is stereotype. I don't know, but they seem to have a lot more freedom. Like, this is what I'm into, you know. Don't kink shame me.

You know what I mean? Like, they're very quickly defensive. Like, how dare you kink shame me! You know what I'm saying? Which, I mean, I don't want to go too far, but sometimes people who have done things that are not consensual with other people or the other people at least say that they weren't consensual, then say, you're kink shaming me! Which is super fascinating! Like, the woman is...

It's just like, sometimes I feel like we're on very different pages still. I think men are bestowed with a right to explore and declare their sexuality and women are not. And even though it's evolved, it is still a distinct difference in terms of that openness and flexibility expected from- It's fascinating. Do you feel like it's a hardwired thing or do you feel like it's socialization? I think it's a combination of both.

I don't think we can deny the roles of men and women, you know, long ago in terms of being sort of hunters and gatherers, men were cast in the role of taking care of and going out in the community and pursuing and bringing back and in sort of that powerful in control role and meant to, you know, sort of keep things in the community coming and buzzing and creating, right? And so, and also have this sort of primitive edict to recreate and women are supposed to be the, you know, passive participant in that. I mean, sort of from a primitive standpoint, that's how from a primitive standpoint, that's how we're. And so I think some of it has been internalized in terms of the internal desires that men and women feel that men do feel a pull to procreate and women do feel a pull to like make a home and like take care of some of that feels viscerally true for men. So I agree. Some of it is

chemical, biological, hormonal, that's sort of in there, even right. Most evolved women sometimes acknowledge, yeah, I still have this pull to be in that role, even though I don't even know if I intellectually want to be so there's something in there that feels like it comes from an organic place. But there's no question that many, many arenas in our culture and society support just this, you know, this idea that women are still supposed to play small or they can only play and embody sort of a larger persona if it's sexual in nature. being the object of desire or affection. Obviously there are many, many exceptions and women have evolved in many ways and many roles, but I'm talking about sort of these stereotypes that are so woven into the culture.

It's much more acceptable for men to expand and take up space in all the ways, including sexuality. And it's much less acceptable for women to do so. More so than when your show first came out, but certainly. Right, for sure, for sure. Just personally, I went through this thing where, so I'm on the show and the show, you know, we kind of had a slow burn and then more and more success and then season three, it was just like, wow, you know, you're nominated for Emmys, whatever,

things we never thought would happen. And that was exciting, right? But it was also a lot of pressure and you had to kind of figure out how you were going to present yourself. And I have a team, you know, like a manager and a public assistant agent. And I remember when we got nominated for the Emmys, I didn't know what to wear. And so I go to a stylist, I First I went to all these designers myself, and then I went to a stylist,

because everyone on my team had different opinions. So I had this one dress that was like a cutout, like very sexy, skin-bearing dress. Very not me. Like I was not really that comfortable with it, but the designer really wanted me to wear it. My manager was like, you've got to wear that, because people don't think you're sexy,

because you play the prude on the show. And I was like, really? Are you sure? Because I am still on Sex and the City. Like, the show itself is about talking about sex and working through these things or whatever. He was like, no, no, no, you need to wear that dress with all the skin.

Then my publicist, my head publicist, was like, no, no, no, you need to wear that dress with all the skin. Then my publicist, my head publicist was like, oh no, darling, she's your, she's like, you need to wear this princess dress because you know, class and you know, and I was like, okay. So it was this whole thing of like, how do I present myself? What am I trying to do?

Who am I within this conversation? And it was super stressful. And then my mother, of course, would not be wanting me to be wearing this skin bearing situation, so I would have to deal with her feelings. So I went with, I think a middle ground, I think I found a middle ground that I liked. I was like, I'm just gonna wear what I like. And I had talked to the girls about what they were wearing, we were trying to coordinate, right? But like just trying to find what you're presenting. And then you look at how people present themselves now,

it's totally normal to have almost everyone on a red carpet in a sheer dress where potentially their nipples are showing. Like this never would have happened back in the olden days. We were scared about showing our nipples on the show. We were like, oh my God, they want us to show our nipples. We were so worried about it, right? Like, would we be shunned?

Would we be, you know, cast out or by the film world or whatever? Which is kind of insane to think about, right? Because now they don't even really put sex in films, right? Like, just all of this stuff is so interesting. Yeah, I mean, that's so interesting, your personal journey about reconciling what your character represented and who you are in relationship to that

and the public perception that's so interesting that you had your own journey about, what do I want to be in communicate? It makes so much sense because I imagine you didn't want to be cast as just that, as yourself in real life and even as the character she's meant to be much more nuanced than that. Absolutely, but that took some time right? Like she wasn't, none of us were, with the exception of Carrie, none of us were really started in a nuanced way. We just brought what we brought

and they wrote towards us. And in that way, we were just incredibly lucky that that happened and that we got to continue on still to this day. Thank God, right? And so for me, I mean, people would say like, oh, are you worried about being typecast, whatever? I was like, why spend time worrying about this? You know, we know this is how our business is.

It is what it is. I love Charlotte, right? Like I'm not against Charlotte in any way. She's great in so many ways. And in the beginning, she wasn't all of those things, but in my inners she was. You know what I'm saying? Like inside I was playing,

I was trying to play all those things and bring all those things. And I didn't feel like, oh gosh, I'm such a prude. Like that never entered my mind because I know myself, right? I know my own existence. But I also didn't feel like, oh, I wanna go prove to everybody that I'm not approved. That seems crazy. Well, I think that the way that the perspectives played out

over the seasons did a service for the viewers, right? In the sense that, I mean, there's always conversation of who are you, right? Of course, right. Being able to relate to the different aspects of oneself and have them represented in such silos really gave an opportunity to like consider yourself in relation to each of those kinds of personas. That's well put. Yeah. Yeah.

And just to reflect back on what you were saying in terms of this evolution of. Right. There you were worried about showing a bit of cut out or your nipples or something in today. I think we just had someone naked on the Grammy red carpet, right? I mean, so the evolution is stark, but it's interesting because I think you're making me think about the fact that it is one arena

and rightfully so that women have claimed empowerment, right? That like I can show myself and present myself and my body in any way I choose and any feedback or criticism that is bestowed upon me, I, I refuse to accept as, right, as a narrative about who I am. I get to decide and it's, it's really interesting that it's really interesting that presenting oneself in a sexy way is a way of kind of curating empowerment now. That's one way, it's not the way. One way that we really claim and prior women felt

that the judgment that might come from doing a small version of that was too big of a sacrifice. And now it's really utilized as a tool of like a declaration of independence. Yes, that's well put. That's well put. I mean, it's so true. And I feel like that is a big shift, you know? Yeah. And I hope that women or younger women, especially,

I hope that they perceive it as an empowering thing. Yes. Well, I was just going to say, I mean, an important nuance to that, maybe it's obvious, but we're saying is that that may or may not resonate with an individual woman, right? If an individual woman says, so that's not for me, that isn't how my soul wants to express empowerment. Great. And the natural, that's exactly how my soul wants to express empowerment as right. Right. There shouldn't be pressure. It should be very uniquely you and organic to you. And that's, I think, the big message. And I feel like in some ways that was also what we were hoping the message was in terms of all four of us being so distinct, right?

And that was one thing we wanted to talk about too with you, is female friendships. And, you know, back in the beginning, Charlotte was this different voice. I kept, you know, continually talking about wanting to get married or whatever, which was obviously very opposite to Samantha and the other two, or in the middle kind of, well, not really. They're like, no, and then different things happen to them in life. But, you know, it's, I love how people really gravitate to,

you know, when like the line when I eventually, I can't remember if it's season three or season four, and I say maybe we could just be each other's soulmates, you know, and people still talk about this. And it's so amazing what people gravitate to and hold on to. And what do you think of that? And what do you think of that now? Like is female friendship more out in the open or more honored, do you think?

Well, I, then I think it was a more unique concept and presented an alternative that really resonated with the male community that like, Oh, maybe there's an alternative. Maybe I don't have to find the perfect person and be married or partnered to be valued and in community with others. Maybe there's an acceptability to my community of women and sort of sisters, if you will. Right. That can be, we're talking about empowerment, another potential source of empowerment that starts to chip away at the often less than feeling women feel if they're not partnered. Right, can you just re-say that because it was so good. I just want to hear it again. So women, unlike men, have this edict to be partnered.

I mean, specifically to get married, but to be partnered. And in the absence of that, there is a direct and indirect sense that you have not completed your life mission, you know, that you are inadequate in some way. Yeah. And so this presentation in that episode offered an alternative. Well, maybe you can be good enough and empowered and in affiliation and community through friendship, through other alternatives. Maybe the definition of who I am can be more expansive than just related to a man

or related to the possibility of marriage and a family. Yes, and it still just needs to be repeated like out in the world so much. I mean, as a single person myself, it's just kind of an ongoing thing. Like, why are you single? Everyone's just very perplexed. Why are you single? They just can't quite like.

I think that narrative is probably still as present as it was back then. Which is so interesting. Right. I think there's more dialogue around it. There's more visible and sort of organic dialogue about, wow, what a strange phenomenon. And wow, I feel that pressure and why? And isn't that strange, but I still think it exists at a similar.

Yeah, definitely. I internally feel some degree of shame if they aren't partnered and specifically not married. And so I love that we're holding this dialogue up again because there's such a truth. I mean, the show embodied it, but there's such a truth in community, the power of community, right?

Absolutely. I really hope we were talking about this I really hope, we were talking about this by producer and I, Hannah, about like for the young, let's say 20s, let's put women specifically, not leaving you out men on purpose, but I work with a bunch of younger women at work when we're doing endos like that, which is so much fun and super interesting, right? Cause they all have just different takes on things and I'd love to hear their point of view. And they definitely, definitely talk about,

we talk about men and relationships and whatever women and they want love, right? But I don't hear them talking about getting married or wanting to get married or feeling the pressure to get married. Now, some of them come from other places where like all their friends are married and we talk about that,

which I definitely had as well growing up in South Carolina. But they're saying, they're kind of like, well, we're on our own journey. We're here in New York, we're doing this, we're doing that, we're on our own journey, but they're definitely looking for love, right? And then there's some of them who have friends who got married in their 20s, which is super interesting to me, in a kind of bohemian way, right?

Where they're still hanging out with all their single friends. There's not the separation so much that we used to have in like married bay of pigs. It's very clearly demarked, right? And I certainly experienced this in terms of my own life. Like when someone got married, they shifted into this other kind of world where, you know, they've moved, they're going to have a baby soon, you know, they're on a track. It's like a certain track that you get on when you get married and that was your goal and you were doing it, whatever.

Or it wasn't your goal and you did it. You know what I'm saying? Not myself, but my friends. Yeah. But I mean, I as the single person would make all kinds of efforts to still be in their lives and you know my best girlfriends, I'm still in their lives, thank God. And you know, they're all still married, which is kind of amazing. But you might be in their life and then they might get divorced and whatever. They'd have kids and you'd go through that with them. But as the single person, I felt like I had to make an effort to be there. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm Auntie Kristin and I'm here.

You know, I'm available, I'm babysitting, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, so that I'm part of that whole existence. But now I feel like it's a little looser in terms of the demarcation, you know? But I don't feel like society as a whole is necessarily caught up. Like for instance, when you go to a wedding, you know, if you go to a wedding as a single person, you are still over there at this wacky table that has like kids and possibly some

grandparents and yourself, which is a nightmare. You know, it's really rough. And it hasn't changed. It's coming in the show when we have weddings and it's highly entertaining, I think. But like, I can't believe that it hasn't changed. Yeah, you're raising so many important issues. The first I want to acknowledge and validate, you are right that not just young women, but relationship with marriage has shifted and has evolved.

There are plenty of people that feel less pressure, feel like they can avail themselves of other options outside of marriage, whether it's long-term partnership or just dating. And women feel much less pressure to get married and have a family earlier. There has been absolutely some evolution. Thank God, yeah.

One of the things that was in my mind, and this is anecdotal rather than empirical, but in my practice, I see adults. So a lot of adult women who are either single or have gone through divorce, who discuss, amongst other notions, but who discuss this still like internal kind of deep rooted shame around singlehood. So it's not as if the dialogue and conversation and even behavior hasn't changed and what I'm saying might not be true for everyone, but anecdotally, I still work with many women who still have that like internalized notion that there's a less than quality if you're not or at least in a relationship. So I want to acknowledge that there's a shift.

And yet some of that narrative still exists for some women. Definitely. Yeah. Um, but what you were saying, I think is it remains a truth. I mean, in some of it is just the, it's like a systemic issue, meaning in culture, when you get married, generally speaking, you are going to spend more of your time with your husband. married, generally speaking, you are going to spend more of your time with your husband,

you're going to have a family, and it is going to mean that you have less flexibility to be in community. Right, right. That's true in Western culture. And obviously there's many, many exceptions. Of course. People who exist with a lot of intention differently, which is lovely. But it often happens that our married friend or our assumed-to-be

mama friend is not as available, leaving the pursuit of connection to the single person who has more flexibility based on this system we're talking about. Most definitely. Most definitely. And in the particular show, Bay of Married Pigs, which we love so much because when I looked back on it, the show is so much better than I realized, and all of the building blocks that were to kind of get fleshed out later are there in Bay of Married Pigs, which is really was kind of amazing to me. And in some ways, they're there even earlier, but it really kind of gels in Bay of Married Pigs. But, you know, Carrie's...

It begins with Carrie visiting her married friends in the Hamptons, and then this, you know, the husband is standing there naked in front of her in the hallway. And she's just like, oh, you know, what do I do? And then she tells the wife and then she has to leave, which they don't show that part, right? So it's unclear how difficult that was or uncomfortable or whatever. But clearly it was uncomfortable enough to the married friend that she that sent Carrie back to the city. And then we see them later and Carrie's not mad at her, which is also interesting. Like Carrie really puts up with so much, you know,

she's like very easygoing about everybody's feelings about everything she's doing, but she didn't actually do this thing, the man did it. So let's just discuss that for a second and the wife's reaction because it is super interesting in terms of do you feel still that there is a thing about married women feeling that single women are a threat? Yeah, anecdotally I think women in long-term partnerships that have kids with the stressors of like raising kiddos and mortgage and all the like not so cute things about life start to feel that loss of intimate and romantic connection. I mean, it's an old narrative because it exists often. It's hard to be married and raise kids and stay

in a way that feels dynamic and sustainable. So I think it's an outgrowth of that. Yeah. Anything that like there's this like disaffiliation in long term marriages sometimes and it's less about the married person specifically or even the entity of less about the single person specifically or even if you have single hood or single women and more about the difficulty of like long-term marriages that is

off. Yeah that's so smart, that's so smart, it makes so much sense. I hadn't thought about it like that having never been married, but that makes a lot of sense is that it's like a projection almost in terms of you're just struggling through it and you might not have the strength of the connection that you had when you first fell in love. And so then that other person who's not in that same situation seems threatening just because you don't have all of the things that you wish you had from your spouse. There's like a like a disorientation destabilization that happens.

Oh, it is as you just try to get through raising kids and staying connected and the logistics. And it also can be lovely and amazing and beautiful. It ebbs and flows for most people. So of course, it's a representation of like the wish for connection, maybe the wish to have that kind of freedom and the potential threat of someone else catching your partner's attention, because it's hard to facilitate a way sometimes to feel connected or catch your partner's attention because it's hard to facilitate a way sometimes to feel connected or catch your partner's attention when you're just dealing with the

days going on. Right. I think that's, that remain, that piece remains present and in a way maybe more so because it's even harder to be a parent and be in a marriage these days. There's more pressure to have your kid show up in the world a certain way. And then- Isn't there?

Oh my gosh. So I imagine that still exists in different forms and ways. I think in the episode, it felt more of a, more dichotomous in the sense that the issue at hand was like, oh, is my husband going to want another woman? You know, sure. It should sexually be drawn to another woman. What kind of threat am I under when it was around, you know?

So even though she hadn't done anything like that, that's a part as a single person, I'm like, but she was just standing there like it's so hard and it's like Samantha at the party and the different other financial guy she's trying to talk to this guy about investing and then his wife comes up and is like you gotta come in here and she's just standing there the poor woman she's trying to get some advice on you know investment do you know what I mean? Like I felt that myself. You have a projection, and I think that's really spot on. It's, don't even mean it to be critical. We all engage in projections. It's like a bunch of projections going on, right?

Yeah. It's an innocent conversation and an innocent meeting in the hallway. Right. Projection is like, oh gosh, I'm under threat. Something's going on here. And as I said, I think part of it might be the situation and the woman themselves, but most of it, I think,

is just the entity and complication of long-term partnership. It's hard. Right. No, that's beautifully put. So well put. Oh, my gosh. And obviously, the show's perspective is not that perspective, right? The show was importantly trying to be on the single person's perspective because that is kind of unrepresented at that point and underrepresented still, I would say.

That's right. Well, I think it's not an unimportant POV how it feels to be on the receiving end of that energy. Because if you're hairy in that scenario, you might feel rejected or disaffiliated or misunderstood and not a part of, there was that scene where she arrived and she was sort of the only single person in trying to find a place in space. So the energy, the dual energy is interesting and paradoxical, right? Coming at her maybe is some sense of threat or envy

and coming back is some sense of threat or envy and coming back is some sense of like where exactly do I belong. Right and that's where I mean Carrie is so interestingly just investigating it all. You know she's like I'm trying to figure out who I am in this and maybe I don't want to get married when she's with the marrying guy. You know she's like I don't think I want this. Here Charlotte you see if you want it. And we were gonna talk like, I don't think I want this. Here, Charlotte, you see if you want it. And we were going to talk about this, I don't know if we have time, but for me,

I didn't feel like that was weird at all. That she's like, no, this is not for me, Charlotte tried out, and then Charlotte tries it out, but she has a very strong picture of what she wants, and that dude's not it. So he doesn't like the china she likes, she's like, out. Which I think is so hysterical for a girl who talks about, I just want to get married, I just want to get married, I just want to get married. She's like, oh, you know, which I think is so hysterical for a girl who talks about like, I just wanna get married, I just wanna get married,

I just wanna get married. She's like, oh, bad China pattern, no. Like she's got her own criteria, right? That's right, right. It's super interesting. But Kerry too, right? Like Kerry's like, well, I tried this out and he brought the mobile out for the baby

and that just turned me right off. I am not that girl. Well, we're talking about the intersection of macro and micro, these macro under the surface dynamics and then these micro idiosyncrasies like I want someone to like be in community with me about my China pattern. It's like this mystery magical thing

that has to come together for people to choose each other and it to work, you know, so it really highlights all those complexities, you know, that are in many ways totally intangible, what makes it happen and be sustainable. Definitely. And why we still get to, you know, talk about the show and make a different version of the show. And I mean, they're so, it's kind of like a never ending investigation into all of those things. It really just hits on so many topics that are interesting to explore in terms of how they evolved and some that have like remained steady and they're relevant. It's a really interesting mix.

Yes. Thank you for joining us. You're so smart and wonderful. Oh, it's so fun to come. I could talk forever. I wish I didn't have to. Me too. I know, well, we'll have you back and we'll talk about the next couple themes. Yeah, great.

Well done, you're our first expert. Oh, thank you. It was really fun. I mean, as you can see, I could just keep talking all day. So thank you for your time and have a great day and we'll have you back. I can't wait.

See you soon. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Goldscher. Bye.