Are You A Charlotte? - Running in Heels with Sarah Jessica Parker...

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

Kristin Davis and Sarah Jessica Parker talk fashion! Everything you want to know—from your head to your Manolos.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart podcast. Hi, I'm Kristin Davis and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? Everybody. Hi, welcome back. Sarah Jessica is still with us. Here we go. We're just going to jump right back in. Now let's go back to you.

It's been on my mind because our industry is in such a flux again at this moment, and it reminds me of the flux that we were lucky to start in. You know? It's similar. Possibly more so now, but it's still interesting to me. So let's go back, because in my mind, what I remember is that you had fluctuated in terms of wanting to commit before we did the pilot. Because at one point they sent me the script saying,

will you read Darren, who I know, who I've done movies with, sent me the script saying, will you read the script for Carrie Bradshaw? And I was like, oh, I know how I do it. I was just like, there's just no universe. Because you remember on the page, she also was not what you ended up making her. She was very bawdy and kind of bigger

and X-rated and whatnot. I was like, I'm a little Southern girl. I don't know what you're talking about, Darren. I was like, but this other one, yes. This one over here, yes, yes. But that I believed, and I might've called him to discuss, and he had said at that point I think you know we really want Sarah Jessica Parker, but she's not sure about committing and I was like oh my god

I guess her Parker because I was such a fan. Thank you. I don't know how I don't recall That's not that it didn't happen. I just don't recall taking a long time I do recall Pippin my oldest brother and, and Matthew reading the script, the pilot script, and both of them saying, absolutely, you must do this. Well, thank you, Pippin and Matthew. I know, I always used to give all my scripts to Pippin and then to Matthew.

If I was conflicted or didn't know or was just wondering about them. So I think my conflict happened like post doing it when I had to really be held accountable for my own commitment to it, you know? Yeah. Well, also there was that big contract. It was a big contract.

See, I don't think mine was that long. No. So when Chris said to you, you could change your mind, it was true? Yeah. Like I know for a fact, I did not sign a seven year contract. Wow, go Kevin Levine.

I signed seven. I don't think I even signed a five year, but I could be corrected. I really, and if I did, I always felt that there was a freedom in there, you know, that nobody would want anybody to be someplace that wasn't good for everybody. I think Chris believed that. I mean, I think Chris was unusual in that way. I think he ran his business. I think he and Carolyn and Mr. Pukas,

I feel like they all felt like, we're all going to agree if it's not good or if it's not holding it, if it's not holding us all together in a way that we're excited about. So however many, I'd be curious, I'll ask Kevin. I never, I know it curious, I'll ask Kevin. I know it wasn't seven. Got it.

And I'm not sure if it was five. Got it. I mean, for me, I was like, yes, sign my life away. Four women walking around New York City, I am in. I will try my best to pull it off. I'm not sure if I can. Beautifully. You're so sweet.

I'm having, as you know from listening, so many epiphanies watching the first season. But I want to go back and ask you, okay, so, Matthew, so we've filmed the pilot. I think they had a year and a half because the cable contracts were really long. I think they had a really long time to decide. Oh, they had the time to decide. Right.

Unlike networks where you were beholden to the fall season and there was like very much a great... Or a pickup? Yeah, like a grid of- Mid-season pickup? Right, right. Remember that being- You would do your pilot and then- It's like a deferment for college.

You're like- Exactly. Do you like me or not? I'm confused. Exactly. Yeah. So you had, there was a grid like for regular pilot season in LA and we were outside that grid. Cause we were also, remember when they were like,

we're a cable network and we don't have money. Do you remember that so interesting that remitted itself over time thank goodness but it took a while so we we you had we filmed in New York of course you were incredibly generous and lovely to me do you remember the Dunkin Donuts no sorry the Krispy Kreme I only because you told the story I have told that story over the years. Because for me, it was like such a moment that is seared in my memory for so many reasons because, you know, I had been on these network shows, right?

I had guest starred on ER and Seinfeld and then done Melrose and all very much like traditional television shows. Different sitcom, single camera, blah, blah, blah. But they were, you know, a certain way. And here we are already outside that box in a wonderful, wonderful way of like, you know, where are we filming? We're in apartments, we're in, you know,

we're walking down the street, we're wearing some crazy shoes that I can't walk in, oh my God, you know, so many things, right? But also I had been a fan of yours, You know, I remember Honeymoon in Vegas, and you know, LA Story, like, oh, fantastic. You know, so many things, and I thought you had such an intelligence, no matter the part.

Like, LA Story, you don't look at that and go like, well, that character on the page is really intelligent. But you brought that, you know what I'm saying? You brought that with you, and I thought this is a part that is so perfect for her her because she isn't an obvious bombshell-y type person. Like I remember when I talked to Darren about it and told him like, I can't possibly play Carrie Brodsha because he'd written the body of Heather Locklear

with the mind of Dorothy Parker. And he was like, oh, good Lord. Oh my God. You know what I mean, right? Oh my God. Well, no one could be that. That's like a fantasy, good Lord, oh my God. You know what I mean, right? Oh my God. Well, no one can be that. That's like a fantasy of a human being. I would beg to differ. No, no, no.

Come on, baby. Oh my God, you haven't rewatched the show, my love. You need to one day, one day. I haven't seen it one time, let alone twice. Okay, we're gonna get to that in a second. It's revelatory to rewatch the show, my lovely. I need to tell you this. And someday, if you ever get sick, which you really don't,

but maybe if you're sick one day, you could rewatch because I really have, it's like a therapeutic situation to rewatch the show for me. Yeah, and I am literally blown away by you every episode. Oh my God, Kristin. I'm not kidding. And I am literally blown away by you every episode. Oh my God, Kristin. I'm not kidding. I am like, I was, we were obviously so in it, you know? We were so in it and it was so challenging time-wise

and you know, I felt like it was very elevated for me. It seemed very elevated in terms of the quickness of the dialogue and the style. I felt like that to me too. Right? Yeah. So all like that to me too. Right? Yeah. So all of that was encompassing me fully and I wasn't like objective. I remember waiting for the VHS tapes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like really like wow. You know, but also in my mind, I had somehow felt that first season was like, eh, not maybe our best, right? Right, right, right. Because like we want, we had very lofty goals yeah and things to work through and discover that they weren't gonna be helpful right yeah not true okay first season wow wow wow wow well you know it's interesting

about that is someone if anyone ever asks me what my favorite episode is early I don't really remember most of them, but for some reason I always say Valley of the 20 something. Oh, it's so good. Because for some reason that script, which I didn't realize is Michael Patrick's first script. I know. Which I did not put together.

When I said it, I thought, oh, he thinks I'm trying to solicit some kind of like favor with him by saying that, but I wasn't. But to me, that was like the best, the best of what we were hoping to achieve without saying it. Yeah. Like we didn't, I don't recall anyone standing around

discussing a standard or an idea of what the show should be tonally. And that script to me, tonally, is like, it's very dark. She goes to, and forgive me, I don't remember everybody's story line, so I'm sorry I'm not going to mention other characters. But then it gets like buoyant. It's this other weird thing happens, I believe with a crossword puzzle and Fifth Avenue so good and I feel like wow You let her

Kind of a Literally go to a basement Literally, yes, and it's dark in the basement and then Literally. Yes. And it's dark in the basement and then the preceding story is it stays kind of dark even though it's funny and he is so terrific. It's Timothy Olyphant I believe.

So amazing. Who is so great, probably one of his first jobs. He's amazing. Do you remember when he was like the dream and the hands. And we're in a tight space. We're always shooting in these tight, dark spaces. Yeah, I don't know where the heck we were. And the spaces are pretty need attention.

You know, they all are in neglect. And then she's walking down the street and everything on her, as I recall it, is all used. It's all from Inez on Thompson Street. There's nothing on her. I don't even know if her shoes were new. Like everything on it was 100 bucks or less, 100 bucks or less.

And we're trying so hard to give it a kind of, this joie de vivre, like a kind of a thing. And then she pops by and she is walking past, maybe the Pierre Hotel. Yes, I think it is. She's walking north on Fifth against the traffic, I always like to say. And she sees himself and the grumpy guy, maybe a friend who's a great actor. The divorced guy, yeah. Yeah, and she just corrects his crossword puzzle. She leans over.

With a glove on. Yes. And I think there's like some writing implement there. And I just thought like, yeah, I don't remember the first season and I always would assume that like there were big mistakes made and things we got wrong and that we let go and like you toss them aside. But that Valley of the 20 something was like as good as it could be. You know what I mean? Like just in terms of like story and how everybody did their job. I agree. And the kind of the arcs of the up and the down, which I think is really well put.

But I would also say to you, and then we're going to go back to this other thing, but also going to say to you, oh, come're gonna go back to this other thing, but I'm also gonna say to you, Oh, Come All Ye Faithful, the end. So good. Is that the end of? The season, the first season, and you go to the church to see. Oh, Come All Ye Faithful is the end of season one. Yes, can you believe that?

Well, I think, you know what, I'm confusing that with our sailor show post September 11th, sorry. Exactly, no, I also, I'm like, wait. So what happens in O Come All Ye Faithful? O Come All Ye Faithful is about faith and relationships. Is she going to church with... She sees him outside church. She's just walking down the beautiful street. With his mother, played by...

Mary and Seldes. Yes. Yes. Incredible. And you see them coming out of church and you're like, you're across the street in your sweats. And he comes over like, what are you doing here? Now, let me also just say while we're here, like Big is kind of a jerk. Is he? Yes. Is he? She said. Now this is something that was really news to me in some ways,

because I was always Team Big because I think Charlotte was always team big. And also, I just don't remember, like, being objective about it all, right? Like, I didn't think, like, should I be team big? Is he withholding? Is she too good for him? I never thought about these things. We were just in it. You know what I'm saying? I liked all of it. You liked all of it. So, 100%. Interesting. I'm not a team. I'm not. I have no teams.

Of course you have no teams, but I'm not trying to be a... No Aidan De Nye exists, right? So there's no teams at this point. We hadn't gotten there yet. But I think the interesting thing for me, because the other reason, the first reason I wanted to do the podcast was because I wanted all of us to talk about coming together and to actually get to share our stories that now relate to this thing

that has outlived what we ever dreamt possible, right? But also, I love to think about the themes and the way that we started and the relationship issues and themes and how they are now today. Are they the same? Are they different? I love to think about that, right? Because it is really interesting. So one thing that I think about when I watch it is that Big is really withholding.

And he does something that is now a word, breadcrumbing. He gives you like, just enough to keep you there. Carrie, Carrie, just enough to keep you there. And you are so, I mean, you just break my heart watching you. Because, yeah, oh my God. Because you're so, you're so... First of all, you're just my God, because you're so, you're so, first of all, you're just so good, right? You have many, many layers going on. And in these scenes with him,

where he's like shut down largely, you know, like there's this scene, there's the episode where you, it begins with you and he walking down the street with real New Yorkers, so many people in the frame, and you talk about being on an island of seven million people, and sometimes all you want to do is hold still with someone. And it has you and Big in these guys arm around you, and you're talking and laughing,

and then you stop and you kiss in the middle, and it's just a beautiful moment. It's so- Do you know what I'm wearing? You're wearing one of your coats. I know. Oh yeah, it's a hideous outfit, isn't it? It's the what?

It's like a sandy colored coat and bad trousers. No, it's like a dark blue. We're not there yet. It's coming. It's coming. But this is when we were probably in February, right? Or March. Oh, got it.

Got it. Got it. And it's cold. I don't remember this at all. I have no recollection of this. I know. It's amazing. Yeah.

But it's so incredibly good. I found out that I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now and I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains

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And you're like, oh no, I've just been holed up with Big. Like you're very, you're like, fizzy in love. Do you know what I mean? Yes. And then we all, you say, oh, but he has a. Do you know what I mean? Yes, yes. And then, we all, you say, oh, but he has a work thing tonight. So I can see you guys tonight. So we all go out to dinner.

I believe at like a place that still exists in Union Square, like Oceana maybe, or, you know? And I'm wearing like this wacky theory suit, like stylistically, highly entertaining, but you look great. And we're leaving the restaurant and Big is in the corner having a dinner with a woman. And you are so like thinking this is the work.

Thank you, Carrie. I know it's really hard. Okay, it's really hard. You talk about Carrie as she, I talk about Carrie as you. I apologize, okay? Because it's not you. It's not, but it's important. I am not offended. And I mean, I'm not in mean I know anyway right but this is another point I want to make about

this later which is that like sometimes people talk about Carrie and I'm like what are you talking about but that's because I know you and I can't separate but I'm just like what are you actually saying this is not true you know like people with their thoughts and feelings, but which we'll get to. But that's because I know you and I can't separate. So anyway, we go up and you go up and you're like, hi. The woman has her back to you.

And you're thinking that's a work thing. And you're just strangely in the corner of a restaurant with a woman at a work thing. And he's like, Carrie. And he gets up awkwardly and you realize, oh my God, she turns and she's beautiful. And you're like, and we're over there like And he gets up awkwardly and you realize, oh my God, she turns and she's beautiful. And you're like, oh, and we're over there like, what's going on? What's going on?

You know, we're like, we're like the peanut gallery, like the chorus, like the chorus, you know? So yeah. And then you're here and it's just going across your face. All the different things are going across your face. And you're like, yeah, I thought you had a work thing. And you're just, you just break my heart. Like you're so vulnerable, but also really trying so hard to roll with it and make it okay. You know, and then you go out with Miranda

and you're like, maybe he meant, no, no, no, no, no, maybe he meant, and she's like, maybe he just, you know, she like cuts you in the middle. Like, it's all very interesting. But then you have a few drinks and you go over to his place. Yes, I know. It's so much that I don't remember either. And you're and you had a few drinks. Was it a double extra special episode of Sex and the City? No, this was our regular every week, babe. This is my thought as well. No, I'm only talking about you.

I'm not even talking about the rest of us. It's so much. So she goes over there, drink? You've had some drinks. You go over there, you try to talk to him. He won't talk to you. What's the apartment like of his? It's a beige wall. So they open the door and there's just basically all they built is a wall.

100% it's one flat. We haven't even seen his bedroom yet. Eventually we see his bedroom, which is two beige walls. Do you know what I mean? It's really basically all they built is a wall. 100% it's one flat. You know, we haven't even seen his bedroom yet. Eventually we see his bedroom, which is two beige walls. Do you know what I mean? It's really hysterical. There was a red bedroom at one point, I think. Samantha has a solid red bedroom. No, no. Big?

Big? We're not there yet. Yeah, yeah. Okay, sorry. We're not anywhere near. Everything is beige. Everything is beige. At the end of the season.

And that says... The what? Didn't he marry somebody he said that was beige? Yeah, but we're not there. I'm so sorry. Yes, babe. But we're not there. But it is interesting. You paint your apartment ecru at the end of the season. And it's discussed at length that it's ecru.

Wow. That's unfortunate. It is so 90s. I know. So that's not... That's a bad influence. Meaning... It should have told you something. But you do break up with them at the end. You do. Oh, I. It should have told you something.

But you do break up with them at the end. You do. Oh I do. You stand up for yourself. It's fantastic. On the street, babe. It's so great. Really?

What was she wearing? That might help me remember. You're wearing a fantastic outfit. You're wearing a beautiful A-line skirt because you think you're going on vacation, but you also know you have issues in your mind. Oh, that's a famous crane shot that we did on the stoop of Rice.

It's so gorgeous. It's so gorgeous. I think she's, that's a famous crane shot that we did on the stoop of Rice. It's so gorgeous. I think that's all thrift shop. I think there's like a polka dot AVE and I've got a white shirt on which, terrible on me. No, it's good. I have to say it's good. It works. It works.

But I know it was unusual. I think she had a hat. She was ready to go on a holiday. Yes. Well, because also you've gone to the church and those crazy straw hats. Yes. Yes. Oh, yeah.

They weren't going to be noticed. Oh, Miranda in an orange straw hat. You drop a Bible. It's very dramatic. So that whole episode is incredible. So that's O'Come All Ye Faithful, and that's a season ender. Yep.

And the crane pulls up. Yeah. Gorgeous. Yeah. Like I think we like to end seasons on a crane shot. And look, now we use crane shots. All the time. Who doesn't?

They're incredible. But that was an early use of a crane shot. And look, now we use crane shots all the time. Who doesn't? They're incredible. But that was an early use of a crane shot because as you remember, it was often handheld and much more, the production value was much less. Much to Michael Patrick's chagrin. But I find it so charming to look back at. Yeah, I thought, I felt, I always felt like, it was always, it always felt cinematic, like we were always

making a movie. I tried to express that to people. I tried to convey it. They'd be like, are you, are you taping in New York? And I used to be such a, such a bee in my bonnet. And I would say gracefully, we're filming. Right, Me too. For 18 hours today and tomorrow. Exactly.

Like we're not a tape show. Right. It's a point, like it's such a distinct difference between. I agree. 100%. But I always felt despite the speed at which we had to work and how much we had to accomplish and any budget constraints, which were not as if they weren't being generous, it was just the cost of doing what we wanted to do.

I, even though I know the show got much more decadent, it felt like a movie. It felt and looked like when I used to have to watch it, you know, for Michael. It looked cinematic. It looked like film to me, but it, but I know we were working in a different way. But I will say, when we were shooting on film, at that speed and the volume of pages that we were shooting a day, we were still pushing freaking Klieg lights from 1940 up and down avenues and cross streets and small streets,

our crew members were dragging panovisions and film, magazines of film, blocks and blocks and blocks and building track, which nobody builds anymore. I know. Yeah, so like all those hot lights were a big part of it. So it was all there. The production value was just had a different look because that's what film and that's, I think we also forget Michael might not even remember. We wanted it to look like that.

Yeah. It's too dark. The pilot. Oh, the pilot can't see anything. I loved her. That was a woman DP. Pilot was Stuart Dryberg. And then the first episode was...

Yes, the first. Loved her as well. And I loved her stuff. Loved. But I guess it was a little bit too dark, right? It was too dark. You can barely see us, but I love it. And I love the flares, you know, on the street, the way the street lights would flare on the Super 16. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I love it. And in comparison to now, obviously, it's very different, but we couldn't do what we did then and have it play on an HD screen,

which is what everyone has, though they have remastered them, obviously, now. But I agree. I'm going to backtrack to this thing I want to ask you about. So we do the pilot. There's this, in my mind, very long break because I'm literally waiting every day, like, please pick us up, why wouldn't you pick us up? This is me, of course. I wonder how long it really was. I think it was like a year.

I think they had a year and a half and they took a year. We shot the pilot in June of, we shot the pilot in June of 97. Cause you got married, I wanna say in March. I got married May 19th. May, okay great. In 97. So it was right after, right?

Right, we got married the morning after I closed One Spotted Mattress. Right. The morning after the Tonys. How did I manage to get there before you closed, oh my God. Because we were there for a year. But the thing I don't know is what our first start date

was on season one. So I don't know. Maybe we should look that up someday, because I talk about it a lot. It's gotta be available. I know someone in the room. Who knows? I mean, the thing that's easy to find is when it aired.

It's not easy to find when we started. It aired in 98. Right. So in between those. In June of 98 it aired. June of 98, exactly. But we'd finished shooting. We had before we went on the air.

We shot the whole first episode. So that's only six months. We must have shot. I feel like we went in February. Because remember how cold it would be and they'd make us pretend like it wasn't. So that's a very tight air date. Yeah. We didn't seem to care.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how we did it. We got all finished. Yeah, we're not leaving ourselves any care. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how we did it. We got all finished. Yeah, we're not leaving ourselves any room. I know. I don't think we care. So, wait a minute. So, both of us are kind of wrong. So, if we look at it this way, and I don't want to waste your listeners' time.

So, if we shot the pilot in June of 97, and we were on the air in June of 98, we couldn't have been on hold that long because we had to shoot a whole season. So we both think it was different than it really was. That's probably true. I think for me emotionally, it was a very long time. So that is something important to talk about, Kristen. That's a good point. I definitely am not good at waiting

and I really, really, really wanted it. Well, a lot is riding on a decision like this and everybody has a different relationship to it. Right. Yours was much more, you went toward it and my reaction to a big decision like that was to try to run away from it. So that's why I just turned it off. Right.

And you kept it on. I kept it on. Because you weren't afraid of doing it. I wasn't afraid at all. Right. I was beyond excited. So that makes sense. Because I also knew how different it was.

And I wanted, I felt when we, you know, when we started, and again, this is something that I think people forget in some ways, and obviously we have our incredible new audience, thanks to Netflix, of younger people, which is amazing, and never would have been in our thoughts as a possibility. There weren't shows that were focused on women from a woman's point of view in 1997 or before, really. There were a few.

Mary Tata Moore. Of course. But that was already way before. Right, right. Rhoda, then Golden Girls. Right. Murphy Brown. Right.

But these were very different shows and they were spread over like 50 years. Yes. You know, they even start, also of course not to forget, Marlo Thomas. Marlo Thomas, that girl. Yes. I mean, this is what we grew up on, right? But then there was like a dearth. Right.

You know, there was just kind of nothing. And there wasn't anything that was super, super modern in the way that they had been for their time. So for us and for me, who I was living in LA at that time, I had been my poor out of work actress self in New York, then I had moved to LA, and I was surrounded by out of work actors and or people who were working a little bit or whatever. I was fascinated by the business, as you know.

And so I had some understanding of how different it was, and how special it was from a perspective of... how it was going to tell the stories, and how unique it was that we would get to film in New York. That was a very big deal. And that, you know, this like... upper echelon of fashion, you know, which to me, I was just like, oh, what do you mean we're not wearing pantyhose?

I know. Yeah. Pantyhose. I know. This was scary for me. I was scared. OK. Absolutely not. We are not wearing pantyhose. Right?

See, see, see? This is the origins, you guys, OK? So one of the crazy stories that they wrote was that the producers were the ones who came up with the rules. And I was like, they didn't know or care. No, it was Pat and Sarah Jessica with the vision. You had the vision, you know, of how to be a modern woman in New York. Yeah, I think Pat had a very...

Pat had a window, like Pat had a window into a world that none of us knew, except for Molly, who was always, I always want to remind everybody, Molly was there from day one. Yes. They had a, they had their hands in a world that I knew about, but I was not privy to, I was not in it, but I definitely knew about it. Like Pat's store on 8th Street, like I had been in that store many, many times.

Many times. It was like, what's that phrase? Like, you know, something you, it's like a milestone in your life as a young kid in New York growing up is like, there's, you know, there's five shops you just have to visit. And then I'm trying to remember, there was the one on the Upper West Side,

Alice Underground, Pat's store, Charivari at the time and or Parachute. We're a little bit past Fiorucci's, that was a little bit earlier, bit past Fiorucci's. That was a little bit earlier. But still, Fiorucci's, definitely. Certain things at 59th and Lex, Bloomingdale's, which was the Calvin Klein, only place you get Calvin Klein underwear.

Oh, we loved that going. And then a couple thrift shops down on Broadway, lower Broadway. Got it. So Pat had this like, she touched on, you know, there was a kind of fringy world that she was very much a part of, that she was in many cases godmother to.

And so I knew about that world, and she drew heavily from that world. But then there was overlap. Like we shared living on the streets in a certain way, or being invited to, or being observant of. So that's like the places in which I could be a good partner to her and or Molly, or to any of the shoppers. Right, right, right.

But yeah, no one, none of the producers ever made their rules, although I will say that they came and they had opinions about the board. And that was, those were good conversations, you know? And everybody were like worthy combatants, like everybody, not me, meaning Pat and Molly and Rebecca a little bit, right, at the time. And Darren, and then it became Michael Patrick.

And every writer of a script was given the privilege or had the right to come to those wardrobe discussions and have their own opinions. And I'm sure you heard, if you came back, Pat would find you on the set, she'd be like, Jenny says that she doesn't understand this dress. You know? And then you'd say, but I understand the dress,

and she'd say, you should talk to Jenny. Or Darren says, and then I'd say, oh, actually, I get that. You know what, it's fine, I get it. I understand why he, A, B, and C, or why Jenny. And then sometimes you'd say, I'll talk to Jenny. I'll explain why I feel like this is right because what's gonna happen there and there and there.

I wanna make sure we have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or I just love it and I think it will be a treat and fun because it's not expected because nobody runs around like that. You know, like all sorts of phrases and you make your case and you, when do you lose? Like, so what? That's collaborative.

Like that's what true collaboration is. It's like not just one winner. There's always somebody who's being heard and seen, like literally, like, see the work, see it. And that's good. Definitely that's good for all of us. And I do feel, in terms of our show then and now, you know, that's why it works,

is that everyone feels passionately. And I think that's key. And, is that everyone feels passionately. And I think that's key. And that doesn't mean that it's always, nah, nah, nah, nah, we're all in agreement. Is that, you know, people are committed and they sometimes don't agree, but this is what then the finished product

is better because of that. What does Michael Patrick always say? Hate me and, hate me and May. No, hate me today, love me and May. Totally, totally, totally. That's a good one, I forgot that one. Yeah. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating.

I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot.

Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. I live with my boyfriend, and I found his piss jar in our apartment. I collect my roommates' toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they won't let me move out of their house. So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head

and see what's going on in someone else's head search for Therapy gecko on the iHeart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts It's the one with the green guy on it The number one hit true crime podcast the girlfriends is back with something new the girlfriend spotlight Girlfriends is back with something new, the Girlfriend Spotlight. Our first two series introduce you to an incredible gang of women who teamed up to fight injustice, showing just how powerful sisterly solidarity can be. We're keeping this mission alive with the Girlfriend Spotlight.

Each week, a different woman sits down with me, Anna Sinfield, to share their incredible story of triumph over adversity. Like Luanne, who was raised in a secretive religious community. Do I want my freedom or do I want my family? And found a way to escape. When she said, you know you can leave, right? It was a light bulb. And now helps other women get out too. I loved my girls. I still love my girls. So come and join our girl gang. Listen to The Girlfriend Spotlight

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network, hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck. This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and best-selling author and meat-eater founder Stephen Rinella.

I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here. And I'll say it seems like the ice age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI-fuelled nightmare.

Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body parts that looked exactly like my own. I wanted to throw up. I wanted to scream. It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting the series took us through the darkest corners of the internet

and to the front lines of a global battle against deepfake pornography. This should be illegal, but what is this? This is a story about a technology that's moving faster than the law and about vigilantes trying to stem the tide. I'm Margie Murphy. And I'm Olivia Carville. This is Levertown, a new podcast from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope.

Listen to Levertown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Had spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight.

He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie and he was the star of the show. Go-Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my skin, break my ribs, I had my guts all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started. Rodger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong.

You're so wrong on that one, Rodger. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GoBoy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. But in terms of the fashion, because now we're on that, but I am going to go back to my thing. I remember. Breadcrumbs? Nope. Okay, we moved on.

That was interesting too though. Gosh, so many threads have started. That's all right. It doesn't matter. They're all good. I'll come back next season. Next season? No, we're not there yet. We're going to talk about fashion now, because we're on it. No, I said I'll come back.

Oh, great, yes, of course. You come back any time, baby. Thank you. The door's open. We had to wait to have you though. That was exciting. We almost got it done. I know.

We almost got it done, but then we didn't. It was too early though. We needed to get, I feel like I had to get done with the first season to have a bunch of thoughts for you to get done with the first season to have a bunch of thoughts for you to help us with. Okay. To suss out. So the fashion-wise, obviously there became a time in our show where the fashion was almost

like the reason that we existed or it seemed to everyone else like the reason we existed, which I don't feel like was the idea necessarily. You know, how do you remember that happening or what was your thought on that happening? Well, I remember that Fendi loaned us a baguette and up to that point, nobody had been willing to really give us anything. And I'm pretty sure our budget for the first season

was like $10,000. Like we had no money. And it was the ingenuity of Pat, Molly, Rebecca. And Century 21 and Ina. Right, Ina. And just, you know, intrepid digging around, pawing stuff, going to some warehouses of vintage shops and things like that. But we didn't have relationships yet.

We had like no infrastructure in the world of proper design houses. And But can I ask really quick, didn't you personally already have some of these relationships? So I did. I had a few that were substantial. Like they weren't substantial, but they were like real. They weren't too flimsy. Like I could count on, I felt like I could make some call or reach out or write a letter or whatever it was, you know, in those days.

Right, if it was something important, like the naked dress. Yes. Or just that was from your closet. Correct. So I had... I wish I could be certain of the Manolo Blahnik. So I... When I was younger and I was living at the time in Southern California,

and I had some friends whose family were involved in retail. And I don't know if you remember Madeline Gallet and Gallet on Sunset Plaza. A little bit. So their daughter, Rena Gallet, was a friend of a friend. And her parents, her father owned Gallet and her mother owned Madeline Gallet. And I think initially there was just a Gallet

and then there was a divorce. And then there was was just a Galet and then there was a divorce and then there was a Madeleine Galet and then there was a Galet. And Galet was a tiny house of very high end European primarily designers. Like very high end like that other one became, the one that's like everybody goes to and spends a million dollars.

It was initially on Doheny and Santa Monica. Well, that place is scary. It's like a dark place with like very expensive things. And so they were a brighter version of that. And let's see, Rina invited me. She said there was this shoemaker coming to town and he was going to do a trunk show at her mother's store at Madeline Galea's store. And it was February in Southern California,

which I came to know because I had been there in February once before when I was Annie and had visited Southern California in February and it rained the entire time. And it was pouring rain in February. Like I came to understand that's what it should do in February, right? What it used to do.

And yeah, it used to rain. And so I said, yeah, I'll come to a trunk show of this designer. I don't think, I'm almost positive she didn't say the designer's name, but it was fun. It was nice to be excited. And I had an American Express card. And I didn't have very much money in the bank

and you have to pay your American Express card off. I know, baby. And I didn't have very much money in the bank and you have to pay your American Express card off. I know baby. And it's not good for credit, which is a bummer. But I went to Madeline Galli's store and there was this designer named Manolo Blahnik and nobody was there. There was literally like three of us. It was pouring rain and cold and you know,

really unpleasant when it rains like that. And it's cold and it's just, rain is so unusual anyway. Like it's such an amazing thing. Like in London when it rains, it's one thing. In Southern California when it rains, it's one thing. In New York City when it rains, not a bother at all. Doesn't matter at all. For you.

Okay. Anyway, there a bother at all. It doesn't matter at all. For you. Okay. Anyway, there was this sweet designer and I thought his shoes were beautiful. So simple. Yeah. Nothing. I bought, I'm going to try to remember, I'm going to say I bought like six pairs on an American Express card that I had to pay off right away. And it was going to be a long time. And when I did finally get those shoes, when I lifted...

So he went off and made them and sent them to you. Unbelievable. He went off and made them. That was a trunk show, proper trunk show, where you pick your silhouette, you pick your leathers, you pick any kind of trim, etc. And he went off and he made them. And when I received those shoes later, I picked up the sock liner and they were all signed by him. It was Manolo Blahnik. So I came to love him, even though I basically really, really couldn't afford it. Like I, it wasn't like I couldn't afford it,

like Carrie can't afford it. Like I never made those kinds of choices. Like I always paid rent. I always took care of myself and anybody else who needed taken care of. But so I had that relationship. I had a relationship at Calvin Klein, which I don't... Can't figure out how that started. And Donna Karan, I had a little bit of a relationship.

But for the most part, we really... You wore Calvin Klein to the Oscars. That's right. That's right. But still, people were like not tossing us stuff. No, no, not at all. And I kind of feel like that was perfectly good and fine and maybe the best thing that could have happened to us. Because had we had access to more familiar pieces sooner, it might have eclipsed what we were also... I say we because we got the words

and then we tried to do our best with them. But really when I say we, what we were trying to do, I really want to talk about the writers and what they, they're like, what was the momentum, like the trajectory, like what were they trying to do? Because they always had the whole season in mind and I never did. I was like not, don't tell me, I don't want to know, I don't want to know, I don't want to know. I always had the whole season in mind and I never did.

I was like not, don't tell me, I don't wanna know, I don't wanna know, I don't wanna know. So had we had everything we ever wanted sooner, I'm afraid it would have gotten in the way. Because yes, people were curious and they enjoyed and some delighted and some didn't at all Because, yes, people were curious and they enjoyed and some delighted and some didn't at all in the sartorial efforts of the show and what it was saying and who we were because it was really an attempt to really be those people

that we'd heard about, read about, knew about. We didn't have exchanges with those people, but I certainly knew all about them. So we did our best to tell that story as accurately as we could. But what people connected to initially were these women talking intimately these women talking intimately about their lives, the intimate part of their lives, the challenges of being a working woman, sexual politics, love and how it eludes you. And as Richard Plepler always says, where is home? And I think if we had had an Hermes bag and everything else and all these coveted pieces and straight off the runway from Paris, I don't know that women would have had such

strong feelings. And men too. For and against. And the against doesn't h push them away, you know, just because you're angry about a choice a character makes doesn't mean you're gone. In fact. Yes, true. And so I'm grateful that we were bare-knuckling it, you know, and really having to be like as industrious, like call in favors, bring clothes from home. How many times did you bring clothes from home?

I think the whole first season I'm wearing my clothes. They weren't good though. But it doesn't matter. No, you're right. And so maybe it was a virtuous thing that we were scraping and, you know, working on creativity. Pat calling in favors. I mean, because Pat certainly had relationships, and Molly, they had their tentacles in the world, but it wasn't until Fendi loaned us that baguette.

Was that, I think, second season, because I don't think I saw one first season. I think it was second season. So we went through the whole first season, really. And there's sometimes when I'm looking at things, I'm thinking, is that Sarah Jessica's? Do you remember bringing in clothes? Other than the naked dress, which we know came from your own. I don't think I brought in...

What I ended up bringing in clothes when we had holes and spaces that were like... And I would be like, I might have a white shirt at home. I might, you know what, I might have a bag. I might have be like, I might have a white shirt at home. I might, well, you know what? I might have a bag. I might have a sweater. I might have a cardigan. Little pieces.

Little pieces. Because she dressed so differently than I did, you know? Right. And so, it was hard. Another thing people don't necessarily understand. Yeah. It was very hard to be her from my closet. I also didn't have a lot of clothes.

["Dreams of a New World"] It was very hard to be her from my closet. I also didn't have a lot of clothes. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now and I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world

as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. I live with my boyfriend, and I found his pizzeria in our apartment.

I collect my roommates' toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they won't let me move out of their house. So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head, search for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the

green guy on it. The number one hit true crime podcast, The Girlfriends is back with something new, The Girlfriends Spotlight. Our first two series introduce you to an incredible gang of women who teamed up to fight injustice, showing just how powerful sisterly solidarity can be. We're keeping this mission alive with The Girlfriend Spotlight. Each week, a different woman sits down with me, Anna Sinfield, to share their incredible story of triumph over adversity. Like June, who founded an all-female rock band in the 1960s. I might as well have said, we're gonna walk on the moon. But she sure showed them who's boss and toured the world.

They would just be gobsmacked, and they would rush up after the set and say, not bad for chicks! So come and join our girl gang. Listen to The Girlfriend Spotlight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the MeatEater Podcast Network, hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck.

This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and best-selling author and meat-eater founder Stephen Rinella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here and I'll say it seems like the Ice Age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.

Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI-fuelled nightmare. Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body parts that looked exactly like my own.

I wanted to throw up. I wanted to scream. It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting this series took us through the darkest corners of the internet and to the front lines of a global battle against deepfake pornography. This should be illegal, but what is this? This is a story about a technology that's moving faster than the law and about vigilantes trying to stem the tide.

I'm Margie Murphy. And I'm Olivia Carville. This is Levertown, a new podcast from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg, and Kaleidoscope. Listen to Levertown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.

Had spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie, and he was the star of the show. Go Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way

out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my spleen, break my ribs. I had my guts all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started. Roger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one, Rod.

From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GoBoy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So you have the shoes, but you didn't have a lot of clothes. Yeah. And I probably didn't have as many shoes as ever. Well, listen, if you had six pairs of Manolos from a trunk show, you were way ahead of everyone else. I know what I was going to say about those shoes. They were all stolen. Yeah, it was a real sad story. What happened? So I was traveling.

It was a very unusual year in that I did, I'm trying to remember how this went. three movies back to back. And the last two were Hocus Pocus and then Three Rivers, or what came to be called... With Hugh Grant, the one with Hugh Grant? With Bruce Willis. Oh yes, with the boats. Striking Distance. The boats, yes. The boats. And a third movie. The boats, yes. The boats.

And a third movie. What's the one with Hugh Grant when he had brown hair? Oh, I can't remember the name. Medical, something. Was it Medical? I'll tell you what it wasn't called for weddings and a funeral. Right, no it wasn't called that.

Yes, I auditioned for that. I didn't get that. So I got the other one. But, so I had, you know how like when you travel, when you're, well, when I was just traveling back to back to back, I was shooting a movie in LA, and then I went to Pittsburgh for six months and shot a movie.

And I just like took everything I loved. And I had been gifted from a previous relationship of Chanel suit. I also had a Chanel suit. And yeah. I had like, so I traveled with like all the things that were my favorite, including Anthony Michael Hall. And I had traded a sweatshirt and he had given me like

a Yankee sweatshirt that was so old, you could not believe it. It was the oldest Yankee sweatshirt I'd ever seen in my life. And I wore it everywhere. And so I decided that I was going to, see, I can't remember if I shot, doesn't matter. I decided that I was going to be really like something. And only packed to get back to New York City. When I was done with all the movies,

I was going to FedEx my stuff home, because by then I had accumulated so much stuff. And you know, when you leave a hotel room, there's like papers everywhere and scripts and you bought this, you have that, you have like presents for friends and families and Christmas presents. And I was like, I'm going to do that thing that people do and I'm going to FedEx everything home and it was all stolen. So everything in that was stolen. That's so sad. Oh, that's so sad. But it was sad.

It was pretty... I was stunned. I was like, so did it ever make it to the drop-off point? And you know, if you don't protect yourself, now I know, in advance of shipping something, then you're only... There's minimal coverage for it. And I could see, I was like, well, can let's watch this happen. Like it did, it got to the place.

It went to its place, its point of origin. And then it just disappeared. And I was like, you know what, if I open those boxes and I saw, you know the box that made it back? What? The dog, the stuff with all the dog stuff. I found a dog, I got a dog there in Los Angeles. Yeah, dog at the Beverly Center that had been in the window

over and over and over and over and over again. It was saddest thing. So I took it, that dog was with bananas. And all her dishes, you know, and like papers, like papers that you scribble stuff at the hotel, like it all went in one. That's the box. Oh my gosh. So anyway, I didn't always have as many shoes as, but, but you had a nice amount of shoes.

My point is you had your toe in the water, right? Where it's like for me, I'd never heard of Manolo Blahnik. I didn't know how to say it. Like I was like, oh my God. You know, that was my whole life. where it's like for me, I'd never heard of Manolo Blanc. I didn't know how to say it. Like I was like, oh my God. That was my whole life in the beginning of the show was like, how do I say this? How do I wear it?

Can I walk in those shoes? All of that, right? My God, now look at you walk in those shoes. I don't know, baby. I almost killed myself in those soap cakes this last season. I was like, I've gotta go down in the height. You wear higher shoes than almost all of us. Well, that's gotta stop, okay?

It's crazy. It's just cause I'm a crazy person. Like, I know, I had to loop something, and I was like, why am I teeter tottering in those shoes? Cause it was the end of the season and the feet are swollen. I'm like, why am I still doing this to myself? My God. Everyone talks about you running in those shoes.

And everyone asks me, how does she do it? How does she do it? I'm like, the woman's an athlete. Say it again. They call action. They call action. That's what you do. That's what I'm gonna tell them. But honestly, you were the one who,

like we could be on cobblestones, there could be obstacles and you're in, you're like, I can do it. And you could, you could. So all of us were like, we've got to try to do what she does. That's my thought at least. I feel like everybody did it.

I mean I think that's because we were just trying to pull it off. Right. And that's what I was doing. I mean I think that, you know, I think that it was pretty familiar for, I felt it didn't feel totally unfamiliar to be navigating like cobblestone and stuff and not wearing hose and all that. That like, I definitely felt that that was, I would almost call it normal. Right. Well, I think it was normal for you because you were very fashionable in New York City.

I never thought of myself that way, but I definitely was, I could understand that. I remember the fishnets and the double fishnets, and I mean like so many things. And then remember the banana clip and, you know, God forbid, and remember that time they tried to put me in the big velvet scrunchie? Do you remember this? Do you know that big velvet scrunchies are so in now? I know, I do know, I do know.

But I mean, this was as big as my face. It was as big as my face, and that guy who tried to cut my hair, I'm not gonna say his name, he was just around a little bit and you were just like, no! You know, you were very, I was like, oh thank God, I can go to her. This was my light bulb moment of like, I can go to Sarah Jessica. When they, because they would, you know, in the beginning we were trying to figure things

out, right? And for Charlotte, who was very much, not based on one particular person, which I did finally get Candace to confirm, which was helpful, and Michael Patrick was like, I don't know how to write for her. And Darren, I think Darren really did have a vision for her in the beginning in terms of like the lightness and the funniness. And you know, he had wanted me to be funny on Melrose and then he left and then they didn't know. They were like, what do we do with her? I was like oh god oh god. I'm gonna sue every week is different.

So for Charlotte we got to create her together I felt like but because I didn't really know those women I didn't really know this echelon of people or really that much about them other than what I might have read in Vogue you know And I remember just stalking the Upper East Side. Yeah, I heard you talking about that. I think it's so interesting that, I think that came in question from one of your listeners. And I was like, oh, that is so interesting that I didn't know that you were just parading up and down, just following people. Which is such a smart thing to, because that is its own world.

I don't know that world as much, because I wasn't part of it. Cynthia didn't live in that part of the world. Those would be definitely different breeds of people. It was so smart of you. But you know, the funny thing about how you have described, how little they seem to know what to do with Charlotte or how little like source material there was in a way or just, you

know, people the admission that they weren't that Michael wasn't sure that he could write. It's just, you know, I haven't seen the show so you're gonna tell me no there is a fallow space. Like where there's not gonna... The way I've heard you talk about it, you're like, you can see or you felt that they were like sorting it out in real time. But the funny thing about that is that I remember it was totally full. Like I never thought...

And my guess is that we've talked about this before, that you've reminded me more than once, but I think I've never heard you talk about it, like, so completely, and because listeners are asking you questions, you're filling in. You know, I had the broad strokes, but I never really thought that it was incomplete. And I think what, I guess what, you know, what happened in regards to your character, I would say with the ambitions even with Miranda and Samantha, and they were fulfilled is that, I feel like every year there was like a sort of an agreement or Michael once Michael took over so it was sort of like second season was like a whole new approach to it. Not new approach, but it layer now this year. Because you can't just have archetypal people. You know, it's no good for the actor,

it's not gonna be fun for us, and it's not good for Carrie. It really fulfilled what it needed to do the first season. We needed to understand that Miranda was going to react this way and Charlotte was going to react this way and Samantha was going to react this way. And that Carrie could then write about it. And it was always like the fulcrum for the column. And the column was the episode.

And Michael was like, well, no, you can't just... You've got to... Everyone has to go deeper. Everyone has to go deeper all the time. So what I think is the first season, as you felt they were pondering, well, what do I do for Charlotte? I think they took care of it really, really well, because it felt to me, like I never felt in a scene like she doesn't have enough.

Meaning like you gave it, you filled it up. No, but that's the job. Is to like, you kind of come to the set having to know more than is being said. Yes. And like, project some more stuff into it that isn't there necessarily, but it's gonna add up. It's like scar tissue. Definitely. So that then Michael and his extraordinary writers just kept pushing. So that so that very, I would say, if recollection serves it, like by mid second season, end of second season, you're having very big, everyone's having big storylines. Like it's starting to get more independent.

Like everybody needs each other. But their lifeline is not necessarily being reactionary and saying, but you've got to get married. You've got to believe in love. Right. Right. Like I'm just summarizing like an archetype because archetypes are super important. Right. They're not tiny. No. And I always wonder anyway. If it's real, if the whole thing is real.

No, don't go down here again. You're not going to say that we're a dream, please don't say that we're a dream. I just don't know if it exists. Oh my god! Thirty years later. Well, it's just a column. I know, you kill me. I love this so much because it's so crazy.

But if that's the case, isn't that better? No! I don't know. Well, it lives. What do you mean? Because if Carrie's a writer... If it's the case, isn't that better? No, I don't know. What do you mean? Because if Carrie's a writer, this is just a story she's telling. Yes. It doesn't diminish what happens.

Okay, okay. It means as much. Okay. I'm just saying it gives you, you can move at things differently if we don't have to apply life rules. Do you feel like that's what we did? Sometimes.

We have to. Is that what we're still doing? It was not a, it was an, always a slightly alternate universe. It was always heightened. That is true, yes. In fact, one of your listeners said, oh, is this real?

And you said, absolutely not. That New York, this New York as portrayed, as painted in the late 90s through the early aughts the late 90s through the early aughts was not entirely accurate. It was heightened. It was better and worse, much prettier and much uglier. In certain ways, yeah. It was richer and not addressing other things. So it's like, it picked,

but that's what Candice's columns were. So it wasn't law and order and toe tags. Right. Thank God. It was purposefully heightened. Right. So when you're creating a slightly alternate universe, you can ask yourself questions about the provenance of a character.

I love that we've actually gotten the whole story behind something that you said, I think when the first show was ending, that I was like, why is she saying that? My feet hurt too much for not to have been real. It's even more touching. Maybe that's true. Think about somebody creating a world

in which the friendships were the central nervous system and heartbeat and arteries of a life. Like where somebody was saying, this is the most important thing is our friendships. This is the thing that is life sustaining. It's true. It's beautifully put. that is life-sustaining. It's true. It's beautifully put. It's even better than having the good fortune to have it. If a woman is saying, look,

I'm gonna choose to tell this story about these women. Yeah. It's still like deeply, if it's real life, it's what great good fortune. Right, right, right. What privilege. Right. But if it's real life, it's what great good fortune, what privilege. But if it's an imagination, that's cool too. It is cool too.

You gave me many a chills and got me teared up. And you guys, we will be back for another episode of Are You A Charlotte?