Are You A Charlotte? - The King of Sex and the City...

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

The heart and soul of Sex and the City becomes clear in Bay of Married Pigs. The incomparable Michael Patrick King joins Kristin with revelations about the show's beginnings that carry through to today. Plus, Michael Patrick King and Kristin reveal intimate details from their own personal experiences that are also central to Sex and the City and being a Charlotte. More pepper please!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? You guys, you guys, we have Michael Fudger King! That's correct, I'm in your house. I'm so excited we're in my house. It's a little bit different today because I had Michael so it's super, super special. It is special to be here. I'm thrilled. We are thrilled to have you because...

I love you? Is that why? Yes, it is. Because I love you. You know it's true. I took the kids to school this morning and I had a good cry just thinking about you being here. I could cry right now. I know because I love you and you're amazing and it's hard to even. I was trying to think about how I was going to take us back to the beginning, but also encapsulate or sum up or somehow explain to people like what we have, which I mean, on some level, the joy of what we do is that they see what we have. They may not know that that's what they're seeing,

but they see what we have. But because we're here and we get to talk about it, we can actually talk about what we have. I think what they see is from the beginning episodes till where we are now is how much I fell in love with you as an actress. That we just kept growing her. I mean, isn't that the truth? Because there's like nothing in the beginning.

I know it's really interesting. And I would like to start this conversation by asking you. Yes. Are you a Charlotte? Yes, in so many ways, but I also think I'm part Carrie. And since you know me so well, I wonder what you think. I think that you were, and Charlotte was, in the beginning for me, the furthest away

from my reference points of, how do you write this character? I didn't know that, I am not a Charlotte. We know, yes. I am not a Charlotte. I may be the Charlotte now that you have created. Aw, that you have created. That in the beginning, I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna write this character, this Charlotte.

I don't know what she is underneath. Right, right. Well, I think everyone must've felt that because there's like, you know, first of all, she's not in the book that much, right? And she's like an amalgam of people, apparently, we found out over the years. She may have been thinly sketched,

but so deeply important. Thank you. Because she was holding tradition that we were destroying every episode. Yes. So without Charlotte's rules and rigorous understanding of what society wants women to be,

we wouldn't have had anything to sort of bounce against. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the idea of how thinly sketched she was, but how vital she was to the eventual thread of the four of them that we kept weaving and getting stronger and stronger and stronger. So when I first met you, I was like, I don't know whether I thought you were Charlotte,

whether I didn't know who you were. I don't think I knew who I was, honestly. You know, that is so honest. It's true. Because there's a real metamorphosis. I mean, and inside as well. Like when I'm looking back now, I'm just in like some levels of shock.

I'm like an unformed puppy, like flopping around the world. I feel so worried for me when I want, like me personally. Like Charlotte, yes, but I know what happens to her, but like me as Kristen, I'm like, how did I exist? Like I'm so like barely covered. Do you know what I mean? I think that I do know what you mean. And I would watch you in those early scenes

and you were heightenly aware of everything around you. Everything. In a way that you now, I literally, to use one of your brand things, I could bring an elephant onto the set while you were performing and acting and you wouldn't even react to it. But at that point, if a door opened somewhere,

you would feel it so deeply. And I thought what was so interesting, the evolution of you as an actor, just owning your belief in yourself? Yes. Is that it? I think it must be, because when I look at it, myself, I mean, the thing that's weird,

and this, you know, maybe too much information, but we're on my podcast, so I'm gonna do it. You know, I've been in acting class forever, right? Right. Forever at that point. And when you're in acting class, you know, it's extremes, right? Like they're kind of like priming you to give it all. Do you know what I'm saying?

It's very, no one's ever saying like do less, you know? I mean, occasionally Roy London, who was a really kind of like next level acting teacher, he would say, cover, cover, cover. I obviously never mastered that. No, I actually would not say there's anything in your early performance that was not perfect for what was written. But I think what changed was what was written.

100%. I think that you hit it perfectly so that it was a defining color, if we would say that each of them are a color. Definitely. You were definitely the color that you needed to be. What I think was so interesting was the trick of being comic. Ooh, yeah. Which was so important. So important.

And I do forget that. I do forget that part, right? Because that part in the beginning, especially before you came, the pilot. I did tell the story about how I'm doing the pilot. And they're like, bigger, funnier. And I'm like, there's no jokes. Yeah, that's why I'm there.

Exactly, so when Michael came, let's get to you for a second. Okay. So when you came, okay, so Murphy Brown, obviously huge, huge, huge, you'd won awards, you'd been lauded and everything. And before that- That was my first big TV thing. Right, but before that, stand-up, correct? I was my first big TV thing. Right, but before that stand up, correct?

I was a stand up comic. And I mean, that's like to my mind, the hardest. It's hard, especially because, and this will relate to Charlotte, you as Charlotte the first season, stand up comedy is incredibly aggressive if there's any part of yourself you're unsure of or hiding. Yeah.

And for me when I started stand-up, I was still in the closet. Spoiler alert! Were you wearing the plaid shirts and you had the curls? I had the curls in the shirts. But the reality is I was terrified on that stage that somebody would see what I was hiding. Yeah. And I think if I can loop it back to you, you were terrified that first season that someone would see what you were hiding, but I don't know what it was.

You'd have to tell me. I think what I was hiding, and I don't even know that I would have thought of it this way because obviously I was just like, I mean, inside I feel like I was like thrilled, but also terrified, like on a high wire act, you know? And that's kind of what I see when I look at it. And I have super clear memories and then none. Everyone said, oh, you're only in one episode, the first one scene, the first episode.

I was like, really? I don't remember that. But obviously, because we crossed board too. I don't remember that at all. You know, it's so funny because my experience of looking at it again, the early season, is that you're perfect, but the writing isn't there yet. But it is, the beginning of the archetype is there.

Definitely the beginning. Definitely, definitely. But anyway, so I did stand up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one of the reasons I was brought onto the show, Carolyn Strauss, who was the HBO Czar yeah, our show was the person who sort of said it sent me the pilot and said what do you think and I said I Don't know what it is except for the last moment. Yes big says to carry

And the look on Sarah Jessica's face like she'd been hit with a two by four in the stomach, made me go, what is this? So my mission statement, the reason I was brought in was they said they would pick it up if I joined to make it funny. Well, thank God Michael came. Well, because the idea is there need to be jokes. Yeah, there were no jokes.

And for me, the idea of making comedy about sex, being an Irish Catholic kid who was so repressed and then on top of that, somebody who had been repressed in the closet and the idea of all of that just makes really comic energy for me. And talking about sex was really the reason we became a thing. Not because of love, which it eventually grew into, but it was about Mr. Pussy, Sharpay Penis. Right, like pushing that. Pushing, and stuff that no one had, up the butt, of course, the classic Charlotte.

Oh Lord, oh Lord, oh Lord. Maybe the birth of Charlotte that we grew into. Maybe up the butt is the birth of the, maybe the birth of Charlotte that we grew into. Maybe up the butt is the birth of Charlotte. Really mortifying to say it, but I know what you're saying. Well, when we did the table read, I wrote that episode, by the way, I'm proud to say. And you, brilliant. In the cab, I agree.

Oh, brilliant. I agree on that, but when we read it at the table, the four of you were laughing so hard, but embarrassed laughing, red-faced laughing, that no one had ever said this sentence or this arena. And it was that thrill of something that no one had ever said. And my feeling about it is we were just saying it

a week before people were ready. Oh, wow. You know, like I don't think consciousness was so far behind us or else it would have been like, what's that crazy show? Listen, I felt we were right on the edge. Ed, we were, we said things a week before people were ready to hear them, which made it thrilling,

but also in the arena of acceptability for the audience. Not for practices and standards and practices. Also, I also thought that we got rid of the men a week before the audience got fed up with them. 100%. Which was important, because like, well, they're gone, that's too soon. Well, if it stayed one more week,

you would have been like bored. 100%, 100%. So I came on to add jokes. And what did you think like, okay, so you came on to add jokes. And what did you think like, okay, so you came on to add jokes, thank the Lord. But in character. And also like, I mean, what you really added was depth because for me, comedy is about having high stakes, right?

Like if you just have jokes that are surface, they aren't actually gonna be funny. It's character. It's really, the comedy comes out of this character being said, to use up the butt, I want to go up your butt. But it's not funny unless it's Charlotte who's hearing it. Of course.

And then it goes crazy, and then the other ladies get to react, and Charlotte accepts. What are we talking about? I went to Brown, Smith, or whatever. Smith, I went to Smith. Off the butt, what are we talking about? I went to Smith. But Brown would have been too on the nose

for that storyline. But so I got there. And Darren and I started, and I remember this specifically, we both wrote, he wrote the pilot, then he wrote Models and Mortals, and then I wrote Bay of Merry Pigs, which is the next episode. And we handed each other,

because we were equal partners, and we handed each other the scripts. Uh-huh. And Darren handed me back my script, and every third line had a red circle around it through the whole script. And I said, what is this? And he said, those seem to be like they're holding this scene back.

I don't think you need them. And I looked and I said, Darren, everything you circled is a joke. Oh, my God. It's just not the way of writing. Right. It's just not what Melrose Place was. No. And Darren's funny. Yeah. But he wasn't used to seeing the moment where you stop and do a funny thought. Right.

Within the character. Yes. So, I mean, that was the beginning of like, oh yeah, we're gonna keep infusing each other's, and I mean, he had stuff that I never had, would never have had all that dark, money, New York, real estate, part of the show, that Mr. Big start, that wasn't in me at first at all. I had my stuff. Totally.

So when you see Bay of Merry Pigs, it's the beginning of me going, well, this is what I would do with these characters. Right, and to me, when you see, I mean, I watched 102 and I almost like just crumbled to pieces. Like it is the most dark and bizarre thing in the world. And accurately appropriate for what Candice Bichelle started with,

which is this box. Her writing is so sharp. And I think that book is like a box of broken glass. It's perfect, but it's not at all something you want comforting. It's not comforting. It's not comforting. No, it's so dark. It's dark and absurd and funny and treacherous.

And that's where, that's how she saw the world. And then Darren was doing his version. And then I thought, well, we have to, I mean, just to talk about Carrie, Carrie had to be more rounded than broken glass. 100%. You're not gonna watch broken glass every week. You can enjoy it once, but not every week.

For sure, for sure. It has nothing to do with the taste or the talent involved. It's like, how do you make something every week that's both sharp, but soft? Right, and that people can relate to and want to be and also have their different like, oh, I like what she said, oh, I like what this one said, oh, you know, you needed that. So when I watched the one and two, first of all, I don't even remember like that guy,

Gabriel Mock's character, filming those women. Okay, I'm still like traumatized. Okay, I need someone to explain, like when you came, so Carolyn brings you and she's like, we need to be funny. Thank God, so brilliant. We need to add a little more funny. Definitely, and thank God. And other stuff that I bring.

Carolyn didn't see me as a standup, I had written a pilot for HBO that was about the beauty world and so she saw that there was more than jokes. Well, obviously, and I mean, sometimes it doesn't even matter if they see that because that's what you bring anyway And luckily they let us bring it. Yeah, but I was also coming from network television right comedies. So I was Liberated to be in a free zone right where you could write stuff without

Editing yourself or having a network edit you right? I really felt like you know like those where you could write stuff without editing yourself or having a network edit you. I really felt like, you know, like those really long leashes that dogs don't even know they're on? That's what I felt like. Oh, how great. So it was a great experience. Great, totally.

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founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. In your mind, did you, what did you see in terms of how it would go or how long you would do it? What was your vision? I just was having the great creative experience of learning so much but also doing something so new that no one even knew what it was. Right. The first season was just Darren and I in a room. Right. Making each other laugh.

And like, I remember once Darren had the flu really bad. And he was typing. And it was the episode with the flabby ass guy. When Samantha dates the old guy whose ass doesn't exist. And I said something, and Darren left so hard that he snotted on the keyboard as he was typing because he was sick. Oh my God.

So the first time I had an inkling was when, you know, we did all 12 before it was on. Yeah, I remember it was scary. The first time I had an inkling was when they sent us the trailer they had cut together. And I thought, this is going to be hilarious. Because they cut all the spiky moments, the sex moments, which was our calling card. And then something else became our staying heart. Right, because that's the next question is like, in your mind, did you think like,

this is gonna make a splash? I wasn't thinking like that ever. You were just in it. I was just in it. I just felt like there was no end. I just felt like, oh, we just keep going. Well, you were right. Yeah.

Yeah. Saying goodness. I just felt like, oh, these characters, these actors, this world, this is always going to be both painful in a great way and funny because it's painful. But it never felt to me like I ever had to reach for the next thought. It was just like, oh, how do we tell that story? And what's the story there? And I never thought I was completely in the moment

the whole time. Amazing. I mean, and when I do talk to writers and people, they always say like, wow. And I go, yeah, everybody wants Sex and the City, but they only want Sex and the City season four. Yeah, yeah, yeah, everybody wants Sex in the City, but they only want Sex in the City season four. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They don't remember season one. Right. They don't. Listen, I didn't. They don't remember that it grew. Yeah. And it was one step. And we had that.

They gave that to us. It was one foot in front of each other. Thank God. We kept discovering it. And you know, in speaking of Bay of Married Pigs, my, I haven't seen those ever until I was given my homework assignment by Are You a Charlotte?

My story that I told myself and other people about the first season was, I didn't even know what the show was till the finale, which is Oh Come All Ye Faithful. Right. And then when I looked at Bay of Married Pigs,, which is, Oh, Come All Ye Faithful. Right. And then when I looked at Bay and Mary Pigs, I was like, I'm not going to say that again. It's so true.

Cause you knew. The thesis. Yes, it's there. The thesis of the entire series. The thesis is clear as a bell, which is married people think single people are lepers. Right. Which is what we built.

Definitely, but also then at the end, how she comes back together with us. Think about how many times over the years we have filmed that scene. Yeah, I know, it's amazing. It's amazing. And as far as you saying, oh, I didn't know what I was doing.

And me saying, oh, I didn't know who Charlotte was. She's pretty clear in that episode. It's true when you think about that, and thank God, because I was like, oh my God, is the whole episode, the whole first season gonna be me flailing? Now I knew that the episode you've referenced, which I hate to even say it still, 20 years later, 30 years later,

Up the Butt, Up the Butt obviously is a very specific set of memories of like joy of performing as well as like humiliation, you know. Well, that is the joy. Definitely, definitely. They go together. They go together. Especially for Charlotte.

Yeah. And what you grew to embrace as an actor was the absolute joy of being in a moment that could be considered embarrassing. Totally. And just going with it. It's true, it's true. Well, at some point, one of you, either Darren or you, I can't remember which, said,

you're going to have to get the pie in the face. Now I know if you talk to each of us, each of us really feels like we had to get the pie in the face, and probably that's true. I mean, I always say it's gonna be a cream pie. Yeah. You know, you're gonna get hit. You're gonna get hit.

And I mean, that was really, I remember like going like, oh, okay, that I need to embrace that. That is what we're doing. I think the reason the show was tolerable was because the heroes were also the fools. Definitely. Soon as somebody stood on a soap box, which Charlotte did a lot.

Oh, so often. We always broke the soap box. So she fell at the end. Thank God. You can't make a speech on the show without getting a cream pie. Totally. It just was the re, it was the balance of the strident.

Right, right, right, right. And I mean, I think I was the most strident. I mean, I guess Samantha in her own way is strident also, but she's also just, you know, she's powerful. Whereas I'm like, I mean, I don't know if I'm powerful or whatever, but I mean, I remember those speeches. You're so powerful. You're so sweet.

I might be powerful now, but only because you saw me. Like I have to give you credit for this. I did see. Like if you had not seen me, I don't know what would have happened. I really don't. Yeah, well, if you hadn't been there, there wouldn't have been no Charlotte.

It's true. I mean, the reality of this rose that just kept opening and opening and opening and opening and opening and opening and opening. I was like, wow, this could just go on forever. And it did. It is. But, you know, talk about the,

speaking of going on forever, talking about the embarrassment, the journey that you took from that first up the butt comedy horrified Kristen to all the way to end just like that, which was the scene where you had to hold, you're gonna blow Harry in the bathroom and we had a prosthetic penis made.

And it was- Just say how beautiful it was though, okay? It was very beautiful. It was a, well, you know, I wanted to, you know, make Harry- Do justice, yes, yes. Do justice to the story that Harry and Charlotte have a great sex life.

But anyway, there was this beautiful penis where Beautiful fake. And we've never seen Charlotte actually touch it. We've hinted through the many years of this that she's kind of great and wild in bed. Right, she has that side. She has that side. Yes, yes.

Like she's open and willing. Thank God. We're married about, you know, whatever. Totally, thank God, yeah. But you're kneeling on the floor, take after take after take with this fake penis, totally embracing, and then Kathy Yang, who plays Lily, is opening the door at the wrong time,

and you're like, no, no baby, it has to be after I hold the penis. Just wait a couple seconds until the penis is in my hand. And I literally went into you afterwards and said, you're my favorite ever. The attitude around kneeling on a floor in front of your family, the crew. Right. Gently telling Kathy, a younger actor, that she can't open the door till you have the fake penis in your hand with the best attitude.

And I think you said most fun day ever at the end. It was fun. It was really fun. And that's the journey. That is the journey. And I think like for me, and this is the part where, I mean, I kind of am like the thing about, are you a Charlotte?

And let's pause for a second and give Michael full credit. So we're working on it just like that. The idea of this podcast has come to me. This is now like, I think the third or fourth, I mean, people are continually trying to get all of us to do podcasts, which is of course very flattering, but it wasn't the right time. And, you know, Willie, you know,

and I were gonna do one and then we did the show instead. And so then again, this new idea came and I was at work with Michael and I was like, Michael, I just wanna run this thing by you. You know, we're thinking about this and we're thinking about talking about the themes, the themes of the show. And I think I'm like two sentences in

and Michael says, this is how Michael works. He's like a pure creative. I'm two sentences in, I'm nervously telling him, thinking that he's not going to approve. And he says, I have a name. And I'm like, oh, okay, what is it? And you said, are you a Charlotte? And I was like, ding, ding, ding, ding, okay, what is it? And you said, are you a Charlotte? And I was like, this is the joy that you are.

He's just firing on all cylinders at all times. I'm just talking to them now. But wait, I want to say this about Charlotte. What I was gonna say was, pardon me. So like, if you think about Charlotte in the beginning, even in her kind of unformed self, and I think, you know the weird thing about when I was in the pilot and they tried to get me to sign

a different contract saying I was recurring, right? Do you understand that? Cause I still don't. No, I wasn't there. Right, like what the hell? Did anyone ever say that to you when you came? Like we don't know what to do with her. No.

Okay. Cause I think, I think A, we were over budget, which you know, is kind of our MO. It's kind of our brand. It's our brand you guys. It's definitely our brand. Thank God it works out. Exactly. And people see the money on the screen. Exactly. You know, so they give me this, some line producer that I never saw again comes to my trailer one day. You know, you've signed like the seven-year contract. She comes with this

two-page contract that says, you know, I, Kristin Davis, I'm playing Charlotte, she's a recurring character for $5,000 an episode. And I was like, oh my God, you laugh. I was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. No, I'm not close enough to the girls at that point to talk to them, right? I don't know what to do.

Call my lawyer, I'm like, what do I do, what do I do? And he says, don't sign it, don't sign it. And I'm like, but they're gonna come tomorrow and they're gonna ask, because you know me and the rules, right? Right, right. And he's like, listen, just pretend that you forgot. And I'm like, but they're gonna come tomorrow and they're gonna ask, cause you know me and the rules, right? And he's like, listen, just pretend that you forgot. And I'm like, okay. So the rest of the pilot, I have to do this.

Every day they're like, did you bring the paperwork? I'm like, oh my gosh, what? I'm such a dopey brunette actress. I should be blonde. I'm so dopey. Like the rest of them. Anyway, I never sign it, right? And then we go off and we have that very-

You did the entire pilot without signing that contract? I'd signed the big fat seven year one. Yeah, but not the reoccurring. But not the reoccurring that would have made the first one no and void. Right, wow. Right, because I wanted that first one. What the hell was that?

Right, that's my inner thing that now- That's rough. Comes to live, I know, but see, this is what I see when I see the beginning of the show. You know what I'm saying? Like that's when I say I'm on a tight wire. I have inside the knowledge that someone tried to demote me. Do you know what I'm saying?

Wow. Yeah, but luckily. So everything has to be perfect. Everything has to be perfect. And also like my spot is unfulfilled, meaning like not by me, but like they don't know what it is. You know what I'm saying?

You know what I'm flashing to? What? The episode where Charlotte says to Trey's mother, the prenup, I'm worth a million. Yeah, one of the best moments. Remember that? I'm worth a million. I do remember that vividly.

Remember being like internally panicked. And remember that was the growth of Charlotte. Yeah. And look at the growth of you, who wouldn't sign that contract rather than going into them and saying, I'm worth regular. Seriously regular.

Reoccur this. Totally, I know, but this is the fear. And I think back on this now. That's interesting that you would have carried that sort of shakiness. Yeah. That somebody behind the scenes didn't think you belonged. Right. As a regular.

Right. That is the truth of my experience. I understand. And no one ever explains. See, he didn't even know you guys. He didn't even know, oh my god. I never even heard that or thought that that was somebody's. Also, I kept it as a secret because I was scared.

Once again, let's go back to the writing. You didn't have anything in the pilot. Exactly. You would say, well, what are we going to do with her? Maybe make her reoccurring. Right. And also they were over budget. She's not happily blowing people.

She's not the writer of it. And she's not the uptight lawyer spunky one. Right. What are we going to do with her? Make her reoccurring because we don't know what the character is. 100%. And when you read Candace's book, she's also not.

Reoccurring? Right, I know. So they really tried. I know. So luckily for whatever magical reason, I didn't do it. And it's not like I'm the most confident. And even back then. I disagree with you.

Oh! I think of everyone, I think you're one of the most level-headed, smart business people that I've met. You know exactly what's what in all these negotiations as we've gone through the years. You're the one who goes, okay, here's reality. Not what's supposed to happen.

Here's the reality. Some people get so mad about that too. No, I think it's you're really smart. You're the one who goes like, okay, that would be nice, but here's what is happening. And sometimes I'm wrong. And also weighing the reality of I want this, what do I give up?

Totally, because to me, the work is so special and so unique and amazing and once in a lifetime, I am fine giving stuff up. But I wasn't fine being recurring. No. Thank God. And you shouldn't have been. Exactly.

But that was like- You knew. I did. I had a sense. They needed four. I had a sense that they needed my voice. The fact that they don't know what to do with me is the reason they need me.

100%. But that's such a scary place to be. So when I look at myself, and also I do feel also just as a human being, like when I watch the three of them in the pilot, I feel like they're powerful. Now, yes, it's the writing, but I also feel like performance wise,

like, you know, even Cynthia as Miranda, when she, you know, remember she pushes her up against the wall. Sure, sure, sure. You know what I mean? Sure. I'm like, oh God, I wish I was like that, but I'm more like, bleh, blah, blah. You're not I mean? Sure. I'm like, oh god, I wish I was like that. But I'm more like, bleh, bleh, bleh. You're not like that at all. That's your internal projection on that work.

OK. You're not. I think, if anything, you're delicate. OK. OK. Which is Charlotte. Yes. That's good.

So I guess you were a Charlotte even before you knew that you were a Charlotte. I think that must be true. And I mean, there is this one part of me that's not a Charlotte, right? Which is like the, when you talk about the scene with the prosthetic penis, that's the part of me where I'm like, yes, there, we,

I am more Bohemian and open and whatever, you know, I'm not married in life. You don't understand? Yeah, I'm gonna tell you a story. Oh, I can't wait. I'll tell you a story about how different you are than Charlotte. Okay, I'm scared.

At one point in one of the seasons, I think like season four at the end on hiatus, you were gonna go on a safari. Yes. And you had a person, a boy to go with that then didn't happen. That's right. And you, because of this,

you went on the safari totally alone. And it was a high end, very fancy, fancy couple driven, blissful, honeymoon-esque, moneyed safari. Yes, yes. Where there was nobody else, just you and this man who wound up not going. Oh, that one, yes. And- Who shall not be named Oh, that one, yes. And- Who shall not be named? He shall not. Fool.

We'll call him asshole. For this podcast, we'll call him asshole number five. Assuming there was four others before him. But- Oh, at least. You went on the safari alone, totally alone. You went on the safari alone, totally alone. And you told me a story that the guides were carrying you around and setting you up

in these beautiful tents and things. And one of the guides said to you at one point, are you a princess? Because they did not understand the royal way that you were treating yourself alone. And that's when I thought, she's so strong. She's such a warrior that she did not need a man to go with her. Charlotte would have never gone at that point. True, true, true. Might now, might now. Right.

But at that point would never have gone. And I thought that was such a funny dichotomy between what people think of you as and who you really are. That sort of warrior nature, I'm an individual, I'll take my life anyway to make it my life. And I thought that was a big difference between you and the essence of Charlotte. Thanks, babe. It's true.

It's true. It's well put. It's funny because the thing that they asked me many times before they finally asked me if I was a princess was, where is your husband? Where is your husband? Then they say, where's your father? And I'd just be like, oh my God. I mean, obviously cultural differences, but still, you know.

Yeah, I went to Mexico once while we were doing the show by myself. And they kept saying, senior, where's your wife? Where's your wife? And they would play, da da da da da da da da da, mariachi, and they'd get to my table and just go, da. Oh my God. And just move over to the next couple.

Oh my God. And that idea of the humiliation of being single is really one of the things that fueled my birthright into this series. Not the fact that I was a woman or not the fact that I was a single lady, but the fact that I was an outsider, which is what the, in the society, which is I was a woman and not the fact that I was a single lady, but the fact that I was an outsider, which is what the, in the society, which is I was a gay man

who couldn't get married at the time. So it's an interesting thing that outsidersness, the anarchy of that, was really the thing that I found so thrilling to write. All the humiliation that happened. So much, and there's so much, and it's ongoing. That was why people related to it. I think the audiences that were single

related to the constant humiliation and then the constant getting back up and going on the safari alone, or just going to the party by yourself. Right, right. Small, giant. Never ends, man. It never ends. I know. It never ends. The weddings are the worst, though. The, right. Small, giant. It never ends, man. It never ends.

I know. It never ends. The weddings are the worst, though. The weddings are the worst. Which we say, babe, marry pigs. Or the best. Or the best, I guess. Oh yeah, babe, marry pigs, the weddings.

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Oh man, this is fun. I'm AJ Jacobs and I am an author and a journalist and I tend to get obsessed with stuff. And my current obsession is puzzles. And that has given birth to my podcast, The Puzzler. Dressing, dressing.uzzler. Dressing. Dressing. Oh, French dressing. Exactly.

Ha ha ha! Oh, that's good. Now you can get your daily puzzle nuggets delivered straight to your ears. I thought to myself, I bet I know what this is. And now I definitely know what this is. This is so weird. This is fun.

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I'm Ashlyn Harris, two-time women's world cup champion and goalkeeper for the U S women's national team. And my new podcast, wide open, I'll sit down with trailblazers from sports, music, fashion, entertainment, and politics to explore their toughest moments and the incredible comebacks that followed. Listen to Wide Open with Ashlyn Harris, an iHeart Women's Sports production on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. What if you ask two different people the same set of questions? Even if the questions are the same, our experiences can lead us to drastically different answers. I'm Minnie Driver, and I set out to explore this idea in my podcast, Minnie Questions. Over the years, we have had some incredible guests. People like Courtney Cox, star of the infinitely beloved sitcom Friends, EGOT winner Viola Davis, and former Prime Minister of the UK, Tony Blair. And now, Minnie Questions is returning for another season.

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you get your podcasts. Seven questions, limitless answers. It's just so amazing to think about how long, right? So remember she's on the street with Stanford and they've run into that guy who's like, I haven't seen you since, and he says, since I was straight. And I mean, and then they can't technically get married, but they're all getting married with delays and Stanford makes funny jokes about it. I mean, it's insane to think about.

Well, it's also incredibly, I think oddly, still ahead of the curve. Yeah. Unfortunately, society has not yet got the message to stop treating people this way. I know it. It's still, and you know, we're dealing with it in, and just like that, we're dealing like,

oh, you're 50 something, you should be further along. And people are like, what? No, we're humans. But when I saw Bay of Mary Pigs, I was like, wow, it's comic. Yes. It's humiliating. Yes.

And the other thing that surprised me was how involved it all was already. Yes. I mean, Charlotte goes all the way to China, picked China out with that guy. I know, what on earth? I mean, I was like, wow, we just kept going. I don't even remember him.

I don't. I don't. And also like, do you remember how Trey and I go and pick China in Bergdorf eventually? Yes, but the idea of the DNA is there. I mean, the fact of the matter is, what was so thrilling for me to write it is stuff that, you know, network sitcoms were 23 minutes.

Right. 23, yeah. Character goes out the window. You don't get that extra bump. Samantha and the sh** goes out the window. Right. You don't get that extra bump. Samantha and the Irish doorman. Oh my God, that is so great. That is so me when he says, I've just been so sad since I left home.

I'm longing for the touch of a woman. That is, and that actor. Oh my God. Who is he and where is he? I don't know. Why did we keep him, Michael? Well, that's Nicole Hollisenter. Nicole Hollisenter directed. Oh my God. Who is he and where is he? I don't know. Why did we keep him, Michael? Well, that's Nicole Hollisenter.

Nicole Hollisenter directed. Can you believe she directed so early? Yeah, I was stunned. I had no idea. Nicole Hollisenter is amazing director. Yes. One of her super, super, super, super powers. And I have this too.

I'm unabashedly bragging is casting. You are amazing. You know what that is. But Nicole with straight guys, Nicole can cast those straight guys. That married couple that Carrie has lunch with. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So good. Adorable.

They're so good. And so when you see the writing and the performing, I'm like, this is very, sorry, I'm gonna say it. This is very high quality. 100%. For the third episode in terms of people, I mean, the jokes are there, pepper mill dick and- Which I remember that whole scene.

I remember that too. I mean, it went on to get that pepper mill to arrive at the right time. That was like such a, that was like a lab of like us learning how to do a coffee shop scene that we would do many, many, many of. But back then we didn't have enough time. No, right.

Because we were like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, trying to get it all in. But trying to get it all orchestrated and all of us talking. Remember how you were like, talk faster, talk faster. Remember this? Well, that's good. And I wasn't even directing.

Just the writer on the end saying, talk faster. He would be there. Well, because we had to get the, you know, and this is why in the trailer at that point, we were all in the trailer together, all running our lines so that when we got out there, you didn't yell at us or no, nobody yelled at us. Not, not just you.

You know, we had to be like, not just Michael. Not just me. Cause we were tired too, you know what I mean? And it was a lot, but like that dialogue, it was, it was a different, that's the first time in terms of the show where I'm watching back in the beginning where I'm like, yes, that's the thing. That became the thing.

Yes, and that's the thing that's so hard as an actor to do. And when people come on as guest stars, they're like, oh my God, it's so hard. But even Charlotte, when she goes to the party, she's dropping all the really specific, this is a classic six on the Upper West Side, no man would ever have this unless he was, he's going to ask you to marry him.

Yeah. And then he does. I know. And then she's like, then she takes it to the next level, and then the comedy is the China patterns. It couldn't work. I know. And for sure, he picks a bad one.

I'm like, yeah, no. No, but then, as you said, they all come together at the end and go to a movie. And that overview of the whole thing about like. And then the terrible moon. The terrible moon. The terrible, cheesy, cheesy. Can you believe how far we've come?

Oh, that's what I was. You said, you said the production values. And I was like, this is what he was talking about. What about Charlotte's bedroom? I mean. I know. I had two flats. I couldn't believe I had a hallway, OK? Because in- I know. I had two flats. I know. I couldn't believe I had a hallway, okay?

I know. Because in the beginning, I only had two flats. Right. And I don't know how they made that hallway come. But also, I'm so sad. It's another growth thing of Charlotte. That kid, that guy talking about how he just needed the touch of a woman in the Irish accent, and I just make a face at him.

It's so sad. Charlotte- Why is it dormant in your house? Well, that's true. And that is what I guess face at him. It's so sad. Why is it Dorman in your house? Well, that's true, and that is, I guess, what Charlotte would think. It's inappropriate. It is inappropriate and confusing, but he's just, oh my God.

Yeah, he's dreamy. He's haunted. He has the sad, Irish, haunted, broken soul. I know, but I love that. I love it so much. But it's just so, it's just that that's why I was so happy there. Because the idea of her coming home,

your Charlotte taking Samantha home, which is never good when you do, by the way. Never goes well. Never goes well when she comes into your actual environment. I mean, she slept with your brother that other episode, which is, by the way, one of the big missteps of the entire series. I am with you.

That was shouldn't have happened. That was very confusing. There's like two things that I go, hmm. What's the other thing? That we talked about Carrie's father. Yes, because she didn't have one. In the wrong Rivkin episode. Right.

That we actually show a picture of her father. Right, in the drawer, in the drawer. In the book. Right. And I was just like, this is so, we're on such thin ice. Now, let's get off this right now. And even Charlotte's wedding, we didn't even introduce the parents

because I was not interested. Okay, and let's just, because people have asked me that occasionally over the years. Like why, what was the thinking that you wouldn't do backstory? You know what I'm saying? Because when you moved to New York, or my experience of moving to New York at 20,

well, whose parents do you meet? Good point. You never do. So true. I mean, it's like you meet your friends, you never meet their parents. So true. Maybe you do.

And all of a sudden, what I became very aware of is that you guys were becoming so vibrant that to bring a parent in is never going to measure up. It's going to be disappointing. Like who's Carrie's mother? Who's Charlotte's mother? Barbara Perkins? Maybe.

Maybe. But then what? Then you're doing that story. And the only parents we brought in was Miranda's mother, who we killed. never saw her. And we brought in the husband's mothers because they completely affected the main characters. Good point.

Trey's mother affected Charlotte and Miranda's mother, Steve's mother, affected Miranda's story. But it was, what are we going to get from bringing in these people that were sort of, they all met like alchemically in New York. They didn't need any backstory to know each other. I don't know, I don't think I ever met anybody.

When I was in 30 in New York, did I meet anybody's parents? Not until they started getting married and shit. But when Charlotte got married, I was like, no, I don like, no, I don't want to see the father. It's not their story. Right. It's the story of I jerked off.

He jerked off. Yes, I know what you're saying. And maybe he jerked off right before. That's the story. You and Carrie. Lord, Lord, Lord. You actually only see a shoulder of whoever your father was. I remember that.

I remember that. I think somebody's dancing with, you're dancing with somebody's father. Somebody's dancing with, Carrie's dancing with somebody. Somebody? That's like an uncle or maybe the groom's father. I forgot. I don't remember. I don't know either.

But it's always treacherous. You don't care. That's not what the show was. Got it. But that's so brave. The show was about the friendships of the family you make. Totally. The family you make.

This is important. You make the family you make. make. And I learned the lesson when we were talking about who Steve's mother was, every single writer in the room had a different idea of who Steve's mother was. I was like, oh, this is a nightmare. So I'm just gonna do mine. I love it. Which is the Irish alcoholic character.

Okay, Michael, obviously you and I can talk forever. For better and for worse. Exactly. I hope everyone's enjoying it. We're going to make this into two episodes. Is that okay? Two. Yeah, at least.

Sure, at least. So you can stay and talk some more? Of course. I'm Emi Olaya, host of the podcast, Crumbs. For years, I had to rely on other people to tell me my story. And what I heard wasn't good. You really f***ed last night. It felt like I lived most of my life in a blackout. I was trapped in addiction.

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Every Wednesday, we're catching you up on what's going on in women's basketball. We've got you with analysis, inside stories, and a little bit of tea. Full Circle is an iHeart Women's Sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. Listen to Full Circle on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Why would you do that to me? Los Angeles, 2021. A friendly neighbor appears out of nowhere and promises to make all my dreams come true. Let's not forget that David Blum was a professional con artist, so you didn't stand a chance. But my dreams soon turned into a nightmare.

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