Are You A Charlotte? - The Writing's on the Wall with Cindy Chupack (S2 E11 "Evolution")

Episode Date: August 25, 2025

Golden Globe and Emmy Winning writer of Sex and the City, Cindy Chupack is taking us behind the scenes of "Evolution" and "Chicken Dance".  From the storylines based on her life to leaving Everybody Loves Raymond for some Sex in NYC.  Plus, why everyone was in love with Dan Futterman. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. If you're looking for another heavy podcast about trauma, the saying it, this is for the ones who had to survive and still show up as brilliant, loud, soft, and whole. The unwanted sorority is where black women, fims, and gender expansive survivors of sexual violence rewrite the rules on healing, support, and what happens after. And I'm your host and co-president of this organization, Dr. Lyotra Tate. Listen to the unwanted sorority, new episodes every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte?

You guys, it's an exciting day, and are you a Charlotte? because Cindy Shoebeck is here. We have been waiting. So excited for you to come. Cindy came to be on the show as a writer originally. She's going to tell us all about it in 1999. Many years ago. And you and Jenny then, in my mind,

became like this super powerhouse pair who really, like, took the reins of the female voice. You know, people would sometimes complain thinking we only had male writers because Darren was so out front and then Michael Patrick, but really we always had you guys in my mind, you know, and you really had such a really incredible input in terms of like your own stories and, you know, like for Charlotte, some of them were just like so important from both you and Jenny. And like for me, when I think of the show, that really, you know, was the part and the soul

and the foundation of like where our characters got to go and deepen. into. So we're super excited to have you. Yes. I mean, it's funny because Michael, to me, Michael could write anybody and we could write. Of course. And I know you don't, you mean that. But yeah, Jenny was actually a friend I had made before I came aboard the show. Oh, I didn't know this. And I was working on Everybody Loves Raymond. Well, I didn't remember this either. This is a big thing because it was sort of like I had an affair with sex in the city because I had been working with a writing partner for like seven years. And on the side, I used to write these columns, like once a year, this thing about dating for a glamour.

And then I can never use those as samples because when you're working with a partner, you have to do things you did together. And I was working, she had kids already, so we had been on all sorts of shows that weren't at all about what I was living. Interesting. And we were finally at a point where we were going to separate. And Phil Rothenthal, who ran Everybody Lives Raymond, let us each write an episode. So I had my own episode of Everybody Lives Raymond.

And then I was going to write a spec. And Sex and the City had just started. It was in season one. And I knew Jenny was working on it. And I told her I was going to write a spec. And she's like, you should come in in freelance. Like, you should come in and pitch. Yeah.

So that's what Phil let me do from Everybody Loves Raymond. I love Phil. I mean, me too. I don't think he, I mean, I think he regrets it maybe still. But, um, which I didn't realize. Well, thank you, Phil. I appreciate that. I know.

We all really appreciate that you let Cindy cheat on Everybody Loves Raymond. With us. I know. He's a good guy. He's a great guy. He's a really sweet. great writers like that was a great we were finally I was finally on a good show that was going to last on Raymond so my dad who was an accountant was like what are you doing but I as from the minute I pitched to Michael and Darren and Jenny encouraged me which was so nice of her to share that like so it was it was like I was so excited to pitch because everything I had written in a little journal of things I wanted to write about or essays or a movie I might want to write everything could work on that show because I was the same age as you guys at that time it just felt like everything I talked to my friends about. about and everything I wondered about.

And in fact, I was at Everybody Loves Rain. See, this is such a long answer. No, it's good. We love a long answer. I was at Everybody Loves Raymond and one of the guys brought in a VCR, remember that, of sex in the city. And he's like, my wife loves this show. I don't get it.

It was at lunch. It was the baby shower episode. And I hadn't seen it. And I remember all the boys slowly trickled out. It was mostly men on the show, of course, at Raymond. and they all trickled out and went to lunch and I was sitting there and I was like crying by the end of it. I couldn't believe how much it spoke to about what I thought about and like how deep it was to me and like the idea of are you going to have a kid and and then remember she had taken your baby name. I do remember.

There was like such big laughs but there were also just to me these really deep meaningful conversations that I hadn't heard. And so I was like enamored of the show. show. And so I went and pitched in my client day. So that's when I did the episode of the chicken dance as a freelancer. So I did not realize you were a freelancer and you did like a absolutely iconic episode. Oh, thank you. Cynthia and I just talked about it last week. And Cynthia said, because they were asking me, where are you in the in the rewatching? And I told them. And I said, you know, Cindy couldn't come on for chicken dance, but she's coming on for the next one. And Cindy said, oh, I recommend chicken dance to anyone who hasn't seen the show.

or young people who want to see it for the first time because it's not particularly dirty. Right. But gets the gist of the four women characters. Oh, interesting, yeah. And that was, I thought that was so smart because all I remembered about the chicken dance was the difficult storyline that I have,

which is, you know, the groomsman's father groping me on the dance floor. So when I realized it. You had an entire relationship during the wedding with one. Which was also so bizarre. I didn't remember nothing of it. Exactly. That's so much fun about rewatching. There's so many great things. One is that there are things I remember really vividly and there's things where there's just nothing. Right? And I'm like, I never know what I'm going to do. Like in the one that Jenny had written, the threesome one where I'm having a dream and it looks like I'm about to have a threesome. I was like, am I going to have a threesome? I was like, I don't have a threesome. I was like, I don't remember that. Oh, my God. How grave of Charlotte. You know what I mean? But no, no, no. It was just a dream. I didn't have a three-send, but I literally don't know. And also in the chicken dance, I don't remember. going up to the room that I'm

preparing for the bridegroom and having sex there with that dude. I don't remember that at all. Obviously, I didn't really have sex. But you know what I'm saying? Yeah, pretty subversive for Charlotte. Yeah. And she does a lot of stuff.

But then we come down and he tells me that I look like a whore in my beautiful dress and I'm like oh. But I think, and it's a good example because I think what you do so brilliantly and really all of our writers. But when you came, you could get the embarrassment, the kind of going out on a limb emotionally with the humor, with the depth,

all of those things. And that's the specialness of the show, I think, and the writing is the reason for it. Well, and then that you guys could carry off anything. That was so fun. Thank you. But you guys, you know, you don't really have writing like that very often. It's really asking you to fire on all cylinders.

Yeah. You know? That's what I feel like I remember about the show is just everybody was firing on all cylinders. and I feel like I knew it at the time. You did? I mean, partway in, I was thinking this is going to be the best job I ever have and that's either sad or just like amazing that I'm here right now.

But I felt like the actors, a costume, the directors we were getting. And, you know, from the moment of like, nobody's heard of the show and somebody brought it in on a tape to, like, I think when I joined you guys, that was the first year at the Golden Globes. And we were like jumping up and down in the kitchen. And like, suddenly people were watching. And then we'd walk around New York and you'd hear people talking about it. So not only did I love what we were doing and who I was working with, but people were.

It was in the zeitguise. Very, yeah. So, yeah, I felt like this is everybody lightning in a bottle. Amazing, yes, absolutely. And smart that you knew it. I mean, I don't know that I really knew it until, I feel like I knew it third season. Maybe I probably didn't know it right away. Right.

I just was happy to be there. The joy of the actual experience was what was, you know, so amazing because you don't always have that, right? you could be on an amazing show. Everybody loves Raymond is an amazing show. But like you said, it wasn't necessarily what you were thinking about in life. Right. And that was true for me also,

obviously with Sex and City, I'm a single 35 year old, whatever, 34, well, I don't know how old we were, something, 30 something. Yeah. And, you know, the things that you are already thinking of and talking about

and or curious about or whatever is their story. It's crazy. Right. Yeah. Like so unusual. And obviously hadn't happened then. And I don't know really has happened again because I think we had like kind of a unique situation in terms of HBL allowing us, you know, to do whatever we wanted.

Yeah. And I think so much, there's very little that's not said anymore. Well, this is true. When we were out, it felt like there was still things to be said that people hadn't said aloud. And now I feel like, maybe even partly because of us, not to take credit for that, but I feel like my friends who didn't use to talk about some of those things that we talked about, then would and men would too.

And so, and now everybody writes their own, you know, everybody says everything. 100% absolutely right. Tell us back. So you wrote the chicken dance on spec. So for anyone listening who doesn't really know what that means, tell us exactly what on spec means. Well, as a freelancer, so I came in and pitched and they listened to a few ideas. They liked that idea. That was really what was happening in my life. Right then, I had bought this house on my own. And somebody, everybody said, like, as soon as you buy a place, someone will propose. And then I had people house sitting and they got engaged in my house. And I was like, it's supposed to be to me. And they had me write a poem for their wedding. So everything. Oh, my God. boyfriend at the time.

This is a perfect example. No, no. He got up in my toy. You were reading the poem? He didn't get up and leave, but he had given me the pink toothbrush head, which was like big to me. Wow. But then it's like they met, got engaged, we're getting married.

And he's just my date and that's as far as I got is like the pink toothbrush head. And so I did start crying during the poem. Yeah. And I did kind of play it off as like, I was overcome by emotion. But really, I was like, what is happening? Oh, my God. The other thing that I love about having a. a podcast and getting to discuss things like this is that, you know, there was always this

kind of vague thought that the stories in the show were our actor's stories. And we would always try to tell someone, no, no, no, they're not our stories because that'd be weird. They're, you know, our writer's stories and they have an agreement that everything is going to be either their story or once removed that people know someone who's actually going through it. But to hear you how close it was to your life. And it wasn't always that A to B. Right. But we definitely like, in the beginning. Yeah. But that one, when I pitch it. They love that idea. So I got to write that one. And then I got to come to New York and be at the table read, which to me, because I had only seen you guys on television. And even though I worked

in TV, I worked in, you know, like in front of an audience. Right. And for camera. Right. Sitcoms. Old fashion sitcoms. Right. And this was like, you know, you guys, I think it was at ABC carpet during lunch when you were filming something at Equinox or something. Already it felt really cool to me. But I was really intimidated. And I also was intimidated because the script you were reading like had come off my printer like it nobody changed very much like I definitely got input when I was breaking the story and all right but it was kind of like getting your bluff called because writers always complain you know right so much got changed but I was like why did no one help me this is bad this is just bad for me oh my god but it was so good that's why no one changed

and it was quiet because you guys were like grown-ups and you'd have to laugh so the so the network knew it was funny like we did on his sitcom. Right. So it was really quiet. The whole time was like, what is happening? Anyway, everyone was very nice afterward. And then after that, I asked my agent, like, do you think I could go on there?

And so he, like, asked and I got to go there. And then I think maybe they regretted letting me do it from everybody else Raymond. But I was like, I'm already in love with this whole process of these people. So then you left everybody loves women all together. It was like between seasons. So I just didn't re-up. But I think everybody thought I would because it was finally a successful show. And it was really fun to write.

and I wrote about my family, but it wasn't like writing sex in the city. Of course, nothing is. Nothing was. Obviously, for sure. And we're just so thankful that you came to us. My God. I am. I did have a very weird conversation, though, which kind of now has some interesting backstory to it.

One time with Ray Romano on television where he told me that women weren't funny. Oh. Yeah. And how's like, Ray. Interesting. No, but we were on television, so I couldn't do anything. What was that? Some kind of a, um, was it, Bill Maher used to have a show that had more than one person on.

Yeah, yeah, maybe that show. So it was like a guy based show and I think that was the only woman sitting there. Do you mean? And I was kind of like, and I think we knew you'd come from there on some level at least. I was like, wait, is this a big? He's a mensch guy. So I feel like maybe he was overstating, hopefully. And I just did a thing that was like a reunion of the Raymond writers.

But I do remember, like I said something funny and I remember them kind of still looking surprised that I said after all these years. I mean, I do feel like that's a real thing in comedy. Like happily. Not surprised, like, how could you, but just surprised I said something. Yeah, I remember thinking that like, it's a holdover from like, you know, it's a sexist kind of a holdover that we still need to get totally rid of, right? And that was kind of the joy of our show is that there were four of us and all of you guys

started writing and writing your own stories and you were women writers. And yes, there was Darren and Michael Patrick, of course. but then like we got more and more and we're going to, you know, obviously as we go on, we'll get everyone on hopefully because that would be really, really fun. Yeah. But, you know, just to be able to succeed without it being a traditional sitcom, right? Because I think women obviously had already done great over there in regular sitcom land, but to have it be kind of like a little almost like an indie film, almost like a sitcom, you know, like we... Yeah, it was very different at the time.

Very different. Like whenever I pitched a sort of a woman-centric show, it was always like, okay, but they're dating, but what's their job or whatever? It was never, could just be about friendship and dating really in life and in the way that that was. Right. So it was really fun. And also, yeah, it did look very filmic. I remember people were really addicted kind of to a laugh track. So there was a lot of fear about like what single camera was and there was a lot of hybrid will be kind of single camera, but it's not kind of obvious.

But Sex and City did such a good job of making it filmic and I think using music and it didn't feel quiet and empty. It was like. Not at all. Yeah, not at all. But also, to me, even when I look back, because it is, I am so able to be more objective now than, you know, because I only would ever watch it right when before it came out on HBO, they would give us the VHS and we take them home and watch them. And sometimes there's still be like placeholders or whatever, it wouldn't be totally finished, right? And then I would probably not ever see it again, you know? So I'm rewatching and so amazed by so many things and so many things I'm like, it is so good.

And I don't know that I was able to feel that at the time, like to really sink in. I knew it was special and different. And I knew that our vibe when we were doing it had that, like, faculty energy of something special, you know? But then to see it now from all these many years later and see how the writing holds up, how on point you guys are about so many things. Like the, I think this is, so this is our episode that we're discussing today is evolution, which you wrote. and Pam Thomas direct, who was a great director, and I don't know why we never had her back. Maybe you know.

I don't know, but she's great. So great. And it's got the incredible Dan Futterman in it, which we're going to talk to next week, which will be really fun. But the thing that I'm wondering about, because I just watched, this is when we have the incredible episode

where Miranda talks about freezing her eggs. Yes. I just re-watched it last night, too. Right. The guy with the hair plugs. Right. It's so good. But also that shot where they're in the freezer.

And she, and, and Carrie says, right now there were no eggs in her freezer. Like, is that she-is going to take her eggs and put them in the freezer? Yeah, but Pam Thomas did that great, like, from behind the medicine cabinet. So good. I mean, she was so visual. Pam Thomas was so visual. But, like, that's how new egg freezing was. Yeah.

That first of all, this jerk on this date with her is going to, you know, criticize the idea of, you know, science. Right. You know, creating babies or whatever. Oh, my God. And then obviously he's just. had hairplanned, so she's just like, wait, you know, which is so well written and so great, but also the fact that then she goes into her freezer and there's vodka in there

and Carrie goes, you know, for now, there's no eggs in her freezing. It's so hysterical. Well, Carrie knew that it wouldn't be in her freezer. I know, it's funny. It's funny. And it's funny because I remember at the time, egg freezing, everyone was like, wait, what do you mean? Yeah.

How does it work? No, I remember like, and should I do that? Right. Is that smart? Where do you go? A fertility savings account. Right? All of it was new.

Yeah. It's crazy to think about. about that. Yeah. Well, I mean, because we did write a lot from experience, but I remember when we did all the infertility stuff for Charlotte, I hadn't had children yet and like hadn't gone through that and then did afterward. And I remember a lot of that I think came from Michael Patrick King and his friends who had gone through it. Right. So again, like the men could write the hell out of it anything as well too. But I felt like later like, wow, that we did kind of nail it. I was kind And that was one of those things looking back.

I went, oh, it did. I mean, I always felt like, oh, I could have added more because now I understand more. But I do feel like. I thought the same thing with my acting. Yeah. I was like, I could have gone. I know. Of course.

I could have done more. I could have done more big time. I don't know if that would have been needed necessarily. But like, once you start to go through those actual things, there is no high or low that is too high or too low in that field. Oh, my God. Yes. Right. Yeah.

And the adoption too. You know, like it happens pretty simply. Yeah. And it's not that simple as we both know. No, I know. But I mean, I love that we did it. And maybe we, I don't even know if the show would have benefited from more detail. You know what I mean? It was more about the emotion. That's the thing. Yeah, that's the thing. Sometimes I just think back, well, I just looked at it kind of in awe that like you did capture it and it somehow captured, you know, close to what it was. But it's true. You feel like I under, like, this is an odd thing to say on it. But I feel like I knew women who. who had had miscarriages when I was younger. Right. But I didn't really know what that meant exactly to them and what kind of a loss that was. Because I don't think people talked about it.

They didn't. Which is sad. And so it really didn't. Like, there were some things you kind of do have to go through to understand the depth of what it feels like to the person. 100%. And even if you have really good friends who went through it, it's just not quite the same.

That's true. That's true. But I have to say, I think with the Charlotte miscarriage, I think the writing was a beautiful. And I had enough, I don't want to say loss, because that's not exactly the right word, but I had enough understanding from my friends and from just my own personal journey. Not that I had been through that, then it definitely had it. But, you know, I had enough to draw on that I think.

And again, this is one of those things where, like, hindsight is 2020 in some ways. But then also, like, our show has the ability to have the incredibly, serious storylines, but still be able to get out, you know, to come to a place. So like, had we known more, would Charlotte have been able to get up off the sofa, get herself dressed up, and go to that party? I don't know. Well, I should say, I think for you, I'm not going to speak for you because you're right here, but I think for actors, maybe you're used to playing things you haven't, you know how to draw on other things. And I guess as a writer, I did the same.

But just sometimes, sometimes when you're writing and, you know, like something's going to be a real gut punch. You can feel it in your gut. You don't have to have gone through it. But like I can feel like, oh, this almost makes me cry to write it. I know this is like something. Right. I feel like I kind of would have had more of that feeling maybe.

But that's okay. I still am happy with, very happy with how it all worked. And I think people talk to me a lot about it now still. So you know over time that that's something that people connect with and isn't that the whole game. Yeah. Right. So, so yes, we can.

No, I'm so happy that it's, it's. I do feel like we're probably, I'm probably more critical, but I'm so happy it holds up. Like I feel like, and that's because really the themes of it, the love, the friendship, the loss, the longing, the like loneliness. Everything was a universal thing, whether you're texting or you're waiting for a phone call, was kind of universal. Yes, and that's why I'm doing the podcast, really. All these new people discovered it, but being on Netflix, right? And then I really, people had asked, you know, since podcast became a thing. and I just didn't feel ready to look at it

because we were all together doing and just like that, I felt like I had kind of a good vantage point of like, well, we're here now and look at how we began and also I haven't watched them and also I really wanted everyone's stories to be told. This is the joy of podcasting, right? So all these people who've been our fans forever

or new people can hear about what it was like to create it. And like you're saying, like, you know, the feeling of being in New York in the beginning when we didn't really know what it was going to be but it had that like sizzily feeling, you know, and like that process of like walking around how many people start to talk to us about it and all of that, like being there is,

it's incredible to think about. Yeah. It's amazing. It was really exciting. Yeah. And it was just, I think even if it hadn't caught on, it was really nice to be writing and doing something that felt so relevant to what we were going through

and what our friends were going through. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm just going to have a little just moment to talk about it, and just like that, you know, weather and just like that, obviously never going to be Sex and City. I don't ever think we ever thought it was going to be Sex and City. But again, we wanted to tell the stories of what we're going through in our 50s.

I think that's an important point, right? Is that like, here we were. It was COVID. You know, COVID had just ended. We were just able to go back out. And the thing that we had always been doing was talking about what was happening for us in our lives at this time. Yeah. Not necessarily my Kristen's story. Like all the people we know and just like life, goes on. Yeah. And why wouldn't that be something? But I think maybe we were a little bit overly ambitious thinking that our fans,

I'm going to laugh. I shouldn't really laugh. But it's kind of funny when I think about it now, like how naive in a way, at least I was, that our fans would want to see us, like aging. I'm talking about death and cancer, do-to-me? Like, we were like, yeah, let's do it. And then everybody was like, what are they doing? Do you mean? And now it's over, which is sad, but I'm not really going to go there.

But, you know, I'm in denial. I'm in denial because we've ended so many times. December 29th, 1975, LaGuardia Airport. The holiday rush, parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then, at 6.33 p.m. Everything changed. There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Apparently, the explosion actually impelled metal glass. The injured were being loaded into ambulances.

Just a chaotic, chaotic scene. In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, and it was here to stay. Terrorism. Law and order, criminal justice system is back. In season two, we're turning our focus to a threat that hides in plain sight that's harder to predict and even harder to stop.

Listen to the new season of Law and Order Criminal Justice System on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, it's AZ Fudd. You may know me as a gold medalist. You may know me as an NCAA national champion and recent most outstanding player.

You may even know me as a People's Princess. But now, You're also going to know me as your favorite host. Every week on my new podcast, Fud around and find out, I'll give you an inside look at everything happening in my crazy life as I try to balance it all. From my travels across the globe to preparing for another run at the Natty with my Yukon Huskies to just try to make it to my midterms on time.

You'll get the inside scoop on everything. I'll be talking to some special guests about pop culture, basketball, and what it's like to be a professional athlete on and off the court. You'll even get to have some fun with the Fud family. So if you follow me on social, media or watch me on TV, you may think you know me, but this show is the only place where you can really fud around and find out. Listen to fud around and find out. A production of IHart women's sports and partnership with unanimous media on the IHart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

your podcast. The Super Secret Festi Club podcast season four is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy cheesement. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex. No, no, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that this season. Oh, well, this season, we're leveling up. Each episode will feature a special bestie, and you're not going to want to miss it. Get in here! Today, we have a very special guest with us. Our new super secret bestie is The diva of the people.

The diva of the people. I'm just like, text your ex. My theory is that if you need to figure out that the stove is hot, go and touch it. Go and figure it out for yourself. Okay. That's us. We're in the heck. That's us.

My name is Curley. And I'm Maya. In each episode, we'll talk about love, friendship, heartbrates, men, and, of course, our favorite secrets. Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club as a part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs

that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was so overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you. And we didn't know what to expect in the morning.

Nobody tells you anything. Listen to shock incarceration on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So what happened at Chappaquittic? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown.

There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News, it's Teddy escapes, blonde drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you. The story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president? Chappaquittic is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal. The Kennedys have lived through. through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week, we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. So let's talk a little. I'm going to hear more.

So you say to your agent, I want to go right on that show. Could I go right on that show? He says, yes, he gets your deal over there. You leave Raymond. You move to New York. Yeah. Got it. Like we did half and half.

Right, right, right. Me too. Right. We were all back and forth. So you kept your house here. You went to New York. Yeah. And then where you, were you and Jenny, you would have your own scripts.

Yeah. But you, at some point, were you consulting producers and then executive producers? What was that journey like? I can't remember. I think I was already like a co-executive producer at Raymond. And I think I just came on as a consulting producer because, literally it was a big pay cup from what I was doing. I was finally making money.

But I was like, I don't care what the title is. And there were certain, anyway, it was just that. It was like, I'll work for whatever. And at the time. And then, of course, it was great. But I think it was just like, I don't care about the title. I just want to be there. So I started as a consulting producer.

Got it. And then, yeah, eventually became a co-executive. You and Jenny both. Yeah. And did you, were you together with Jenny in terms of like, we're a partnership co-executive producer? That's how I felt you guys were. But I don't think you technically were.

No. You're not like Julie and Elisa are a technical partnership. No. I think we just like were in sync a lot of times. We were like the two girls and when it was like Michael and Darren. Yeah. But yeah. And then you would have your own scripts. Yeah.

Yeah. We did, we collaborated on one like the last. We collaborated on Splat at the very end. And that was so fun to write with Jenny. Oh my gosh. But I collaborated with Michael on a different one too. So yeah. But anyway, I love working.

So it was like kind of a small group. Yeah. Of writers at that point. And you would collaborate and or just be in the writer's room together brainstorming and then on the set with us all the time. Yeah. Which is the other thing people really don't realize.

No. And was that unusual for you at the time? Well, yeah, it was my first single camera. So I hadn't even been on those kind of sets out in the world. Right. But also even since then, like I've done a lot and I haven't ever been on a show where you're there that much and where even you're doing the writing there like either in a restaurant nearby or upstairs by the cameras.

Or on the set with your laptop open on your lap, which would be Michael Patrick King. Yeah, because he liked to be there. like not all showrunners want to be there for everything and so we would just go along and while we were still writing. But it was great because we got to really like see the process. And also it was great for us because if we had a question

we could just go over to you and we didn't have to worry if the director we didn't feel was like totally knowledgeable about the characters or the storyline or whatever. We could just check them with you guys. Yeah. Which was amazing. Yes.

Right? No. Oh. Yes. No, you could. I don't know if all the directors loved that. Oh, maybe the directors didn't love it. You know what? On my very first one on chicken dance. Yes. Oh. I think you asked me something, which I answered because I didn't know the protocol of all that. And then I remember the director at the time, who I saw recently at a DGA thing,

and she's still angry with me about this. And I was like, I didn't know. But anyway, she said something at the time like, oh, is that what we're going to do? Good cop, bad cop. And I was like, what? I don't even know what I'm doing. I just didn't answer a question. Oh my God. But anyway, that was unusual. Most of them totally appreciated and it was But you had never came back. Please, if you're listening, Victoria, I am sorry. I didn't know how it worked. I was new. I was just excited to be there. Yeah. And I'm sure I was just excited to ask you a question and you should answer. I was like, is that how we're going to play it? Wow. But you know what I think that is about and I think it's interesting to think

it, that is about the old school TV ways. Yeah. Because there was a hierarchy. Well, and in film, it's really still the director who's supposed to talk to the actors. The film is very different. They don't even want the writer to come. Yeah. You should not go to a film set if you're a writer unless you're like an Oscar winning writer. Right.

But I remember, and this is a better experience than that. I remember I know you had Alan Coulter on. Yeah. Who I love. Me too. I think I had written one it still took me a while to understand And like the rhythm of a film set because like you, you know, we go, we see the, as soon as you finish filming one scene, you go see the rehearsal of the next scene. Nobody's in costume yet. They haven't

done their hair and makeup for that scene. You see the rehearsal. Yeah. And then the director comes up, they light. There's so much that happens. Well, the rehearsal to me was like the first time hearing the actors read it since like the table read maybe. And there might be changes. Yeah. So I would be, I remember with Alan one time I like had thoughts about it. And he goes, Cindy, and this was nice of time to tell me and I remember it forever. He said, this would be like me leaning over your shoulder while you're writing the first draft telling you like what I think.

Like, I'm going to work it out. The actors are going have thoughts and then if you still feel like those issues. And he was right. And it took me a while to just learn the rhythm of like when it was okay to interject or good to interject because a lot of times you guys would arrive at whatever was bothering me from

the very beginning. Well, that's good. And it was only like once in a while would there be something in the staging of the rehearsal that you you knew you needed to say something because it was going to be too late. They were going to light. For sure, for sure. But it took a way to learn. But it makes sense because in your mind you have written the scene, therefore you have

visualized the scene. Right. And that's the weird thing about writing, right? It's like in our industry, writing, of course, is tremendously important. But then sometimes you guys are kind of pushed to the side. Yeah. Like, please be quiet now, which is not really fair because it's a collaborative art space. Right.

That's, we don't, we can't do our job by ourselves and you can't do your job. And you can write it, but then it's just going to be on the page. You know what I mean? And we could act by ourselves, like, on the street or whatever, but, you know, we need each other. And then the director's in the middle of it all. And depending on the director, they're either more open or less open or, you know, whatnot. I mean, everyone's different. And I also think it's so interesting, the vibe that's created.

And one of the things I love about the old show and the new show, you know, is that it was always a very creative, you know, place where people, like, I always felt. before we ever had a title or anything, right, that I was very included in the process, in Charlotte's trajectory and her arc. You know, Mike would always sit us down at the beginning before we went to work and say, this is the plan. And then he would call us if it was changing or he'd come, grab us on the set and say, can I talk to you? And, you know, then we would come to you. Like, if we read something, I remember one time I had one of those really long Charlotte monologues, you know, where I just talked for like half a page or whatever. And I'm upset about something. something. You know what I mean? I think it was in the, in the tray era. And I came to you in the

hallway of Silver Cup. And I was like, Cindy, you know, I just feel like, you know, it's just hard to, because remember how we had to be word perfect. Oh, yeah. It's comedy. It's common. It's exact, right? It doesn't have to be, though. Yeah. I feel like, yeah. I mean, that was the, that was the precedent set, and I think it's a good one. Because it wasn't, we didn't have an audience there to tell us if we were hitting the jokes, right? So we had to trust the writing. Yeah. You know, we had to trust the rhythms of the writing. And the rhythms of the writing, and let me tell you, when we did, and just like that, and we brought our new actors in, I mean, they're still talking about how hard it is. Oh, really?

Because it's very specific, you know, and each character is also very specific from each other. And, like, my rhythm of talking my syntax is not the same as Charlotte syntax, right? And then sometimes, depending on who wrote what episode, you'd be like, oh, I just can't say this. I just can't get my mouth to form the words, you know what I mean? And I came to you and I was like, can we change it? And you were like, no. did I? Oh my God. That's so rude of me. Well, since Sex and City, I feel like I've worked on, and when I directed a movie, I really wanted it to be a bit more playful and have more room for that. Like I think, but I have noticed because I've now worked on some dramas and I don't know why, because I love comedy so much so I feel like I should be just, but I've worked on dramas and I feel like it's somehow less precise and it can be because it's very much the feeling and the plot and like you want the, but comedy sometimes it's just like it's not funny one way and it is funny. It's the rhythm. I think. think it's the rhythm of the words. You know, the rhythm of the words is super duper important. And I think

the rhythm of the actors is also important because you can't really teach comic timing. Yeah. But I think that they have to work together, right? And so sometimes you guys would change stuff. And I remember thinking that at the time, I don't know what was true, but I remember thinking I probably waited too long because, you know, how there'd be like right after the table read, different people would request changes. Do you know what I mean? I waited until the hallway. So you're the same as me on the set like when exactly do I interject words not too early but not too late but I also think for so long I never asked for anything because I was just so happy if Charlotte had a storyline right yeah and so it was getting to where like I had a lot more because of Trey and I had these long like emotional things

rather than because in the beginning at a certain point I have my like didactic like I'm going to get married and I've got this book and this book says done nah nah nah which I haven't really gotten to yet which I thought was first season but first season I'm just kind of there like you know not quite 100% knowing what to do or whatever. You can't tell at all. Thank you so much. When I look, that's what I see. I see me underneath a layer of like pretend calm.

You know what I mean? Which obviously all of us feel at some point. But I feel like. I knew Charlotte right from the baby from the baby shower for my first episode I watched. I know, but you're very Charlotte, which I remember like Jenny also upbri's side. You know, like once you guys came, I was like, oh, thank God. Oh, thank God. I'm going to get some good storylines.

They get me, they get me. I mean, me, but also Charlotte. You know what I'm saying? A romantic. I mean, I think of it just like the romantic side of it. Yeah. I mean, you got married with a white horse. I mean, yeah, and then divorce.

I was going to leave that for a dark horse. But yeah, I mean, look, you know, all of us have our, you know, our visions and we try to make them come true, right? And that's kind of glorious. No, it is. You do your best. You do your best. Charlotte, I think she was like ever optimistic.

100%. She was always. Also, like, you know, she was going to work hard. She was going to do what it took. She was not going to give up. Yeah. Gotta love that. Yeah.

December 29th, 1975, LaGuardia Airport. The holiday rush, parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then, at 6.33 p.m. every day. Everything changed. There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Apparently, the explosion actually impelled metal glass. The injured were being loaded into ambulances. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene.

In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, and it was here to stay. Terrorism. Law and order, criminal justice system is back. In season two, we're turning our focus to a threat. that hides in plain sight that's harder to predict and even harder to stop listen to the new season of law and order criminal justice system on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hey guys it's a z fud you may know me as a gold medalist you may know me as an NCAA national champion and recent most outstanding player you may even know me as a people's princess but now

you're also going to know me as your favorite host. Every week on my new podcast, Fud around and find out, I'll give you an inside look at everything happening in my crazy light as I try to balance it all. From my travels across the globe to preparing for another run at the Natty

with my Yukon Huskies to just try to make it to my midterms on time. You'll get the inside scoop on everything. I'll be talking to some special guests about pop culture, basketball, and what it's like to be a professional athlete on and off the court. You'll even get to have some fun

with the Fud family. So if you follow me on social, media or watch me on TV, you may think you know me, but this show is the only place where you can really fud around and find out. Listen to fud around and find out. A production of IHart Women's Sports and partnership with unanimous media on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York

state number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program, and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was so overwhelming, and you don't know who's next to you. And we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything.

Listen to shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The Super Secret Festi Club podcast season four is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy cheesement. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your internet. No, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that this season. Oh, well, this season, we're leveling up.

Each episode will feature a special bestie, and you're not going to want to miss it. Get in here! Today we have a very special guest with us. Our new super secret bestie is The diva of the people. The diva of the people. I'm just like, text your ex. My theory is that if you need to figure out that the stove is hot, go and touch it. Go and figure it out for yourself.

Okay. That's us. We're in the head. That's us. My name is Curley And I'm Maya In each episode We'll talk about love, friendship

Heartbrates, men And of course, our favorite secrets Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club As a part of the Michael Tura Podcast Network available On the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So what happened at Chappaquittic?

Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond And left a woman behind to drown. There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News, it's Teddy escapes, blonde drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you.

The story really became about Ted's political future. Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president? Chappaquittic is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal. The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's

royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. All right. Should we talk about this particular episode? Let's do it. Okay, great. So this is evolution, which is also like such a great. I don't really, I'm just rediscovering all of it when I watch it because I don't really remember it exactly, you know? I thought I did. And then when I rewatched, I was like, oh, I forgot that storyline. I forgot the fertility, like the egg.

Me too. Freezing your eggs was in there. Me too. I forgot the Samantha story, which is like, I love that moment. There's a moment where Charlotte is like, like, Samantha, getting her heartbroken was more confusing to Charlotte than a kiss from a gay man. I know. And you're like, you're just bewilderment and everything in this episode, I love.

I know. I really enjoyed it. Also, I totally forgot John Shea. Oh, yeah. Was in our show. How could I not remember this? I was like, oh, my God, what am I watching? We had so many great. And he took that we had so many.

I mean, and right now is when, like, it's really kicking in because people know what the show is now. Yeah, they wanted to be. Third season is going to be, you know, next level, right? But, like, now is when we're really getting all the good people and writing all the good storylines. And it was so sad for Samantha. Oh, my God. Really bad. I didn't remember this at all.

She has this whole plan, that she's basically this man, John O'Shea, he's almost like a different version of Mr. Big in a way, right? Where she dated him when he was, you know, a big deal, and then he dropped her for a model that he married. And then they broke up and it was an ugly divorce. And he had fallen in stature, which kind of made me laugh because now if you're having an ugly divorce, I don't really think it affects the men. Do you know what I mean? Doesn't know. Might affect the women. Might not.

I don't know. It's like everyone's having an ugly divorce basically. but whatever, that was interesting. And he said, like, you fell from the cover of Fortune to, like, page six. Exactly. So, like, he was just gossip foddered. Exactly, exactly. But so then she has a whole plan.

And I love the way that you created this storyline for her because it makes total sense and you don't really see it coming that it's not going to be like a kind of regular Samantha storyline, right? Yeah. There's a whole plan that she's going to date this man again, even though Carrie's like, what are you doing? You really hurt you. And we're all like, huh, what?

Oh, what? Yeah. Carrie says, like, he's the man who broke her heart. And you're just like, what? What? And yeah. I didn't know that was a possibility. Deep backstory that Samantha got hurt.

Which is pretty cool. Yeah. And she seems, you see that in her performance where she's like, well, I have a plan and I'm going to leave him before he does it to me. Yeah. But then it doesn't go to plan. Yeah. I think her plan was like, right before they even know sex, she was going to be like goodbye.

Then she's like, well, maybe after sex. And then maybe she gets all pulled into it. Because she thought she wouldn't have feelings. Yes. Because that, if you think about the very first. pilot episode, she's like, I'm going to have a sex like a man without feelings. Right. Yeah. So it makes total perfect sense. Yeah. But she wasn't born like that. Yeah. Right? She went through things to get there. So it's kind of an interesting like backstory that we kind of don't ever really get. Yeah.

Also, I literally mentioned my parents, I think at one point. Yeah. I'm like, what? Charlotte has parents, you guys. They're in Connecticut. I think we knew that part. But and then I think also previously in a Jenny episode, I say, oh we don't talk about feelings either we just are very good at tennis and I wrote which episode I can't even remember which episode but the one where you're in this pond you're like I didn't grow up in a naked house was remember that I forgot about that good one I think we would know that though I mean there's little little tidbits little tidbits where if we collected them all they make a pretty good picture but I love the whole that we don't spend time on the back story yeah generally speaking but

okay so we have we have this let's just talk about our guest starts for a second because they're so great. So we've got John Shea as Dominic, who's the Samantha Stirling. We've got Dan Futterman with me. Just a dream. Dreamy. I mean, in every way. Because the episode, we're not sure Charlotte, like, if he's gay or straight, goes on a date with them, like, says, I didn't even wash my hair. I wore glasses. Like, it wasn't a date. Right. He kisses her, this amazing and it's good. So when we cast that, when we were casting, when Dan Fetterman, I can't even believe he came in to read because he's like a big actor. Why would we even have? But anyway, he did. And both Jenny and I were enamored and Darren and Michael were enamored.

And we're like, this is perfect. Everybody loves him. Yes. Now, let me ask you this about this storyline, because this is one of the storylines when I thought back on it, because it's Sputterman, all we remember is Sputterman, right? But then I did remember that there was some kind of a metrosexual conversation, which was a word at the time. But it's not a word anymore.

No, I mean, I don't know if this one ages that well, the discussion of gay straight men or straight gay men. Right. Like this is one of those things where I look back and I think, well, at the time, you time. It seemed hilarious and forward thinking. And now it feels like very binary and like I'm embarrassed that that was how we talked about it. But you kind of, I don't know if you can judge like you then to you today. It's 1999. If we're writing it now though, we wouldn't write it that way. No, of course we wouldn't write it that way. But I also thought, because I had Benito Skinner on last

week. Have you watched his show overcompensating? Oh my God. It's so good, Cindy. Not only is it so good. You quote Charlotte often, which is adorable on his podcast, not in the show. And he told me when he came on the pod, that when he, so he created videos for Instagram during the pandemic and then put them on YouTube, but this is how he became successful. Wow. It's incredible, right? He's incredibly inspiring and awesome. So when he got his show picked up at Amazon Prime, it's called overcompensating, and it's about kind of

pretending that he wasn't gay and overcompensating so that no one would notice that he was, in fact, gay, and the journey to, in college coming out. Right. It's a very funny and adorable show and very reminiscent of early days, Sex and the City. He told me when he came on the pod that he, once he got the show picked up, he was like, oh my God, what do I do now? And he watched the show throughout the whole show three times to study the structure. Wow.

Isn't that cool? I mean, I think that's the thing is that there's still very individual stories. There's still men who have a lot of trouble coming out. There's still women who are confused, whether if someone's gay or not, and people who are confused. Fair Kara. Like, it's all very fluid. Like, he wasn't inside confused, but he was presenting. Yeah.

So, like, he has a best friend that he tries to date. Yeah. But they don't have sex because he's actually gay. And he kind of knows he's gay, but he doesn't want anyone else to know. So then he brags to the frat boys that he, okay, I can't repeat it. It involves sex, whatever. He brags. And then she finds out, and then they have a fight.

And then they make up and they're best friends. Right. And so what he said to me is, like, the healing. of having, you know, gay friends, gay male, whatever with women friends. Like, there's a healing in it, you know, and they can, like, rely on each other. And I thought that was just so great. I think for me, the lesson is, like, you can tell any individual story that's true. And that's true to you.

Like, if that's, so I think that's a defense you can still use and it can be as specific and it can, I think what was fun about Section of the City at the time is that we could make these pronouncements that felt real and like in the zeitgeist and did start conversations and were fun, but they were kind of generalizing about men or women or gay, you know. So at the time, it seemed hilarious that we were capturing something that seemed true,

but I think maybe because it was trying to be generalizing that made it like when you look back, maybe we were overshunders. Well, I also think at the time, I believe that we were all going around talking about metrosexual and they were all writing magazines about metrosexual, which I think, if I don't know if I'm right, but it was basically like a straight man theoretically who grooms himself like a gay man.

Right. And culturally, like we thought, yeah. Would you have cultural kind of revelins or whatever? All the things that we thought were gay. Right. Which are not necessarily, but like great style, great culture or references. Right. Right. Yeah. But we don't ever use the word metrosexual in the episode, which I thought we did.

But we don't. We talk about gay straight men and gay straight gay men or whatever, which also like, I was like, I don't even know what the heck we're saying. whatever. It's super interesting, right? But basically, I do ask him, have you ever been with a man? And then he asked me if I've ever been with a woman and I don't answer, which I find weird also, right? And then this is what I thought was also interesting because I couldn't remember the details. I just knew it was like a questionable storyline, right? But it's also Dan Futterman. So we love him. I love it still. Like I stand by it. I just think like some of those things don't, didn't age as well. But I still love the storyline and like you trying to make sense of like, what is? happening yeah yeah and then at the end when the mouse is there and he jumps on the chair and kind of squeals and then the voiceover says something to the effect of charlotte wasn't well enough developed in her masculine side to be with someone who was so well developed in their feminine side yeah something like that which is a very deep statement and that's fine to say isn't it no i think it

i mean i i think as i mean i love that whole as someone who's been confused myself and married someone who realized he was gay after me married. I feel uniquely qualified to say that it's confusing sometimes. Yes, it is confusing. And so, and you do kind of want some clarity sometimes just because you need to, I don't know. So I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting clarity. Yeah. And so I love though that in that scene when you ask him in bed and he says like,

I'm a pastry chef who lives in Chelsea. If I were gay, I would be gay. Totally. Like, which was really smart at that time. Like, it's true. Like, he wouldn't, why wouldn't you just be doing great? He would be great. Yeah, you'd be very busy and your schedule would be booked.

So, yeah. And you're adorable. So, you know. But I also love in this one, this scene where you bring Carrie and Stanford to the place for the pastries. It's just so good. Yes. And it must have been like the casting of Futterman because literally everyone at the table likes him. Yeah.

Right? Like Willie says Stanford. says, well, I'm attracted to him so he must be straight. Which is so funny. Because all the good ones are straight, even the gay ones. All the good are straight, even the gay ones. Yeah, it was really, really good. Oh my God, Willie.

I know. I miss Willie already. That's a fun one to rewatch, though, of him. So fun. All right, you guys, it is too much fun to have Cindy Shupak here. So we are going to come back for part two later in the week. Please join us on

are you a Charlotte. December 29th, 1975, LaGuardia Airport. The holiday rush, parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then, everything changed. There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene. In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, terrorism. Listen to the news.

season of law and order criminal justice system on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hey guys it's a z fud you may know me as a gold medalist you may know me as an NCAA national champion you may even know me as the people's princess every week on my new podcast fud around and find out i'll be talking to some special guests about pop culture basketball and what it's like to be a professional athlete on and off the court listen to fud around and find out, a production of IHeart Women's Sports in partnership with unanimous media on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. Not today, not today. The Super Secret Bestie Club podcast season four is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy chisement. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex.

No, no, no. We're not doing that this season. Oh. Well, this season, we're leveling up. Each episode will feature a special Bestie and you're not going to want to miss it. My name is Curley. And I'm Maya. Get in here. Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, a different type of podcast. You, the listener, ask the questions. Did George Washington really cut down a cherry? Were J.N.K. and Marilyn Monroe having an affair? And I find the answers. I'm so glad you asked me this question. This is such a ridiculous story. You can listen to American History Hotline on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

So what happened at Chappaquittic? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown. Chappaquittic is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedys on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast.