AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - Aliens, Angels and Daemons - Michael Phillip | DEBRIEFED ep. 82

Episode Date: April 3, 2026

Today I sit down with the host of the Third Eye Drops podcast, Michael Phillip to discuss how the UFO Phenomenon, religions, greek mythology and the occult might all be one in the same.

We see these things as embodied. We see, again, gods, demons, angels, whatever, coming to us with a body, even though they don't really have a body. It's something about the way our minds have to portray whatever it is. And that would explain the diversity and, you know, why some are tall, some are short, some look like blizzards, some look like insectoids, some look like, you know, it goes on and on and on. General McAzland, this, you know, general who worked at Wright Pat, who is apparently tied up with like the whole UFO style. went missing. A retired two-star Air Force general has vanished without a community that wants to go down the rabbit hole of UFOs.

Just because it's crazy. It doesn't mean it's not true. And a lot has sort of transpired in terms of conspiracy around his disappearance. But one thing that he said was him relaying the information that if you wanted to understand the phenomenon, you would need to look into Greek mythology. And he puts specific emphasis. on the Prometheus myth structure. So what he does

is he takes fire, he brings to the humans, you know, and then he gets punished basically eternally for taking a divine power and bringing it down to humanity without permission. There was probably some kind of entity technology, higher power, that at some point

came here and either gave us something or did something or seeded something. From within the military industrial complex, there are other people who have very similar lines of interest, right? Like, Semivand talks about neoplatonism. Colonel Nell talks about all of this esoteric and spiritual stuff.

Jim Ryder, who was the VP of something at Lockheed. So it's not some weird one-off. There does seem to be an interest, just like we were saying before, among not just people like Heinek who are going down these rabbit holes and they become very esoteric and spiritual, but people from within the military industrial complex. He served in the Korean War. And he told us a story, cargo plane with another Air Force off to a metal object that was covered by it.

But to them, anything like that, citizen came back. They were told to never talk about it. And in 2000, Leo Blastoma. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my absolute honor and pleasure to welcome not only a fellow euphonaut. researcher of the esoteric and the phenomenon, but also a good friend. This is the host of the third eyedrops podcast, Michael Philip. Welcome, Michael. The honor is mine, my friend. I'm super stoked to be here, and I think I accept most of those adjectives at the very least. Yeah, but yeah, man. Perhaps a euphonaut being the most important one. I just love that word.

It's a good word. Not makes pretty much everything sound dope. Right. Huh. It really does. Psychonaut. Yeah, psychonaut. That's right. Hmm.

What about Paranaut? Astronaut. Paranot? Is a paranot? That should be a thing. What would that mean? Like you're an astronaut of the paranormal. Oh, okay.

A paronaut. Yeah. It could be. Yeah. Yeah. Moved on quickly from that. It seemed like we had, we have more novel things to talk about than word mashing. Yeah.

Well, word mashing. seems to be one of your strong suits. I think, you know, your podcast covers a wide variety of, you know, philosophy, science at times, esotericism, sort of the occult, but also UFOs, anything from sci abilities and remote viewing and that type of thing to, you know, psionics, having people who, you know, were summoning UFOs. For people who, who aren't familiar with third eye drops and what you do, how would you sum up, how would you summarize your podcast?

Well, like I was just saying before we were recording, like I'm aware of the fact that I don't really have a thing. People don't look at me and think, oh, Michael's the whatever guy. And I sort of like that, because I think if you're trying to sense make, particularly with high weirdness and the sort of fringes of reality,

trying to understand the mysteries of consciousness, I don't really want to be cornered into anyone, position or any one adjective or title. Like, I don't think you can truly even start to approach the truth being in that kind of a philosophical position. You're pigeonholing. Yeah, and particularly when you're talking about things, again, I'm going to spam the word mercurial because I love it.

But when you're trying to understand things as mercurial as the phenomenon or altered states of consciousness or get at some of these questions that are at the ground level. of reality having to do with human consciousness and stuff, I think you've got to be approaching it from a sort of multidisciplinary kind of polymath disposition of loosely held ideas. You know, being willing to both find your ideas that you find sacred and are worth sort of building a foundation on, but also just playing with ones lightly. They're like, this might be a thing. It might not be a thing.

Yeah, I think that's a healthy way to approach it. And something I've found myself more and more, I found myself doing more and more, it's come to my attention that this whole thing is kind of silly, you know, is it is what I've pretty much resigned to now, you know, where a lot of people, they take this very seriously, and it is a serious matter. It's perhaps the most serious matter. But at the same time, it is completely absurd and at times whimsical and tricky. The phenomenon presents itself in so many sort of absurdly bizarre ways that it's hard for you to, as someone who's trying to sense make, be like, oh, this is a purely physical, these are the Zetas. That's what we're dealing with here. The Zetas, the reptilians, the Nordics, this is what's happening. It seems to be so much stranger than all of that. And the leading researchers in this field, once they've gathered enough time under the belt of researching, they all conclude sort of the same thing, whether it's Grant Cameron or Jacques

Ville or any of these other, you know, quote, sort of philosopher type researchers, they end up saying that, yeah, there's something that we're interacting with. Totally. That is interacting with our consciousness at a very, very fundamental level and making us see things or behave a certain way. It's super strange. And that's why I'm excited to talk to you today. Because this is, This stuff is like right up here, Alex. Yeah, no, this is my favorite shit to talk about. And, you know, J.L. and Hynick,

another great example of somebody who was totally skeptical, pretty straight and narrow scientist. You and I both spoke with his son, Paul. And it's pretty widely known that he became friends with Jacques Valet, then became a Rosicrucian. Paul even said that he followed the Rosicrucian sort of burial rituals when he died. So, yeah, man, it has a way of, turning people toward the higher, but also seemingly making them more skeptical of any of the mainstream ways of making sense of it. I have no doubt that there are people who, you know, converted from atheism to Christianity because they were convinced of some sort of, you know, narrative brought about by contact or studying UFOs. But it seems like the vast majority of people, John Keel's another example. In Operation Trojan Horse, he says, I was an avowed atheist. I didn't believe in anything.

And then through dealing with the high strangeness of the phenomenon over the course of many, many years, he became highly philosophical and spiritual while also still rejecting a lot of the mainstream religious dogma. So, yeah, it puts you in this weird position where you're certain that there's something more, but you're not certain what it is. What percentage do you think can be attributed to these researchers or these people later in their life, coming to this conclusion being a result of them just kind of throwing their arms up in the air. I mean, there's that. I think there's also a predisposition of people as they age to get more introspective and try to look for those kinds of answers because, you know, you know, Jung would point this out all the time, right? You're sort of early on in life. You're trying to make a name for yourself. You're trying to elevate the ego through accomplishments with career,

family, et cetera, et cetera. And then there's that natural inward introspective turn that occurs. And oftentimes that leads to big spiritual questions. And if you're going through that and you're also interacting with something like UFOs, I think that becomes a convenient sort of psychospiritual scapegoat in some ways. But I don't think it's necessarily wrong because I do think that it is emblematic of deeper truths and it could be emanations from a higher reality that we're dealing with. So it could, it kind of is a good gateway drug in a lot of ways, I think, to ask bigger questions and confront, I don't know, deeper questions that are very difficult questions to answer. And I don't even know if they're questions that we can answer, but I do think they're totally worth interacting with. Totally worth asking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I often find myself thinking about how, you know, I don't think it's a coincidence that towards the end of your life, you become more introspective. We're dealing with imminent death with finality, right? And so, you know, I don't think it's a coincidence that towards the end of your life you become more introspective. We're dealing with finality, right? And so, So you have to sense make, I mean, even I think subconsciously, you're being guided towards believing that there is a reason.

You have to be, right? Because you've spent all this time and now you're about to leave. It's hard for someone at that stage in their life to hold on to the nuts and bolts and be like, there's nothing after and it's just aliens. Right. You know what I mean? Like that pressure of, oh, I'm about to move on. obviously brings about, you know, some deep introspection and some, you know,

spooky thoughts on the nature of reality. But then again, you know, I'm 42 and I'm starting to think about this stuff. So it has nothing to do, you know, with death at least just yet, perhaps. Maybe it does. But yeah, I do find myself sort of picking up what they're putting down, you know, at this early age. Well, that time in midlife, I really think anytime it can start happening any time after around 30. And I think some people are just predisposed to that way of thinking from the jump. I know I was asking big questions

very early on in life and not getting satisfying answers, which is part of the reason I went down all of these different rabbit holes because there wasn't any one thing that I found really satisfying, but I found the sort of search very satisfying. But speaking of Jung, you know,

he would talk about, like I said, he would talk about this inward turn, but he also, I think, wrote one of the most interesting and to this day important books on the UFO phenomenon because you recognize the potential for exactly what we're talking about that basically that this phenomenon could be a way to project all kinds of different things. Kind of a psychological archetype.

Right. So the UFO phenomenon can take on all of these different sorts of guises depending on who's looking. And that sounds reductive and like he's trying to boil it down to personal psychology. But you have to remember with Jung, he believed in a collective unconscious as well. So for him, it's always kind of a meeting in the middle of the personal psyche and the sort of meta-psyche of all of humanity. So you have to both look at the UFO phenomenon from as an emanation from that collective unconscious and the person's own mind putting meaning and symbols and projecting their own shit onto it. So yeah, I do still find that to be a hugely relevant point.

in whatever it is that we're interacting with when it comes to the phenomenon because clearly it might have been you that was pointing this out to me or somebody else on the show but essentially making the point that either we have to be dealing with thousands of different beings. Is that you?

Yeah, you want to summarize that again? Yeah, well, I mean, I just think the idea is kind of ridiculous that we're dealing with one other thing because if it's one other thing, that's like one in a trillion. You know, that's one thing that's coming here. or that's sort of been here and where did they come from prior to that. So the idea that it's just one other thing, it might as well be a number of other things, a thousand other things, or just us. Like those are the things that make most sense to me. If it's just, oh, it's just

us and the grays. I'm like, is it really? Like it feels like it's either more than that or less than that. Just one, I don't know, to me feels absurd. Well, you know I'm fond of the idea that, okay, for one, I'll make the caveat of saying, yes, I do totally think it's possible that there are physical beings that are manifesting here or are literally from somewhere else. I do think that that's possible. But what I think is more possible is that it's some kind of strange alchemy between the personal psyche and whatever the true phenomena is. Yeah, whatever this interdimensional cloak is that we're living under or whatever.

Right. Yeah. And this is something that's been talked about. I mean, I could just list people off. Like, if anybody wants to get super nerdy, read on the mysteries by Iamblicus, who's this Neoplatonist. And he's talking about interacting with daimones and angels and gods and all these other beings in like, you know, late 200s AD.

And he's talking about how these, the truth of these beings is that they're essentially these undefinable, ungracable by the human mind, light beings from a higher reality. but because of the way we're shaped and the way our mind constructs reality, we see these things as embodied. We see, again, gods, demons, angels, whatever, coming to us with a body, even though they don't really have a body. It's something about the way our minds have to portray whatever it is. So I think there could easily be something like that going on with the phenomenon as well. And that would explain the diversity and, you know, why some are tall, some are short, some look like lizards, some look like insects. Some look like, you know, it goes on and on and on.

And it depends who is seeing them too. Right. Like a general might end up seeing these giant terrifying insects where a perhaps, I don't know. Like I just think that, yeah, it really depends on what your, maybe what your psyche is making of these things. And I often wonder what I would see if that was the case. And what I would see before I knew this versus what I would see now. Would it be different? You know, there is also this idea, you know, we hear the talk of like the lady, right, from the bloods and stuff.

And again, that's just some instantiation of an idea that to them makes sense, that perhaps if seen from someone else might resemble a reptile. And a reptile is interesting, too, because the snake, according to Carl Jung, was the sort of psychological archetype of fear. Right? And then you have like, you go back to like the Naga, Quetzuquadal, like all these other. And it seems, and even in sort of native, um, uh, lore, snakes are kind of really feared and revered. In fact, seeing a snake's belly is like the worst luck you could ever have. And so snakes embody already psychologically in our own perception, in our just purely survival instinct. a threat, a like, oh, that, stay away from that. If you see a snake, it's very scary. And so, you know, that could just be some type of physical manifestation of a deep-seated fear that we project onto something we don't understand. Yeah. And then they become sort of reptilian in our eyes. Yeah. Dude, serpent symbolism to me, again, this might be a very niche thing to nerd out about. But serpent symbolism to me is very interesting because I think from a more modern

POV, we tend to think of the serpent as this malevolent being, right? Like the serpent in the Garden of Eden, you know, the great serpent, Leviathan are all these very Satan or Luciferian adjacent things. But in the ancient world, there were very, there were like benevolent serpents as well. So in the like in the Egyptian mythos or spiritual system, you had both positive and negative serpents, like serpents who were aligned with chaos and destruction. And and then serpents that were servants of Ra and creation. I think that one of the patron deities of Alexandria in the Greco-Roman tradition was this thing called Agatha Daimon.

And if you look him up, he's like a serpent with a crown. And he's this very benevolent patron god or daimon of this great city state. That was sort of the highest culture melting pot of. of all these different philosophies coming together. And then, you know, like the caduceus, the serpents coiling the caduceus, are supposed to be somehow representative of divine wisdom or creative energy,

or wisdom. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it's such a complex symbol with such a long history. And the ones with wings as well is like, is a different meaning as well in that, yeah, some type of celestial wisdom. Yeah.

If you look at Quetzalquadal or those times, and then, you know, throughout many UFO and entity encounters, they don't have wings, but the emblems that are on some of these beings feature snakes with wings multiple times. Yeah. Which is in a triangle and a snake with wings.

Very, I mean, the symbolic nature of the, of the emblems or insignias that are found on these, you know, creatures or these beings ties in really neatly with our cultural history as well. The lore is failing me now, but isn't there some story of some experience or I remember the beat of the story where it was one of the versions of the story where it's humans and ETs working together. And there was, I want to say a caduceus on the suit, but I don't remember what story this is from. Yeah, this is actually, I think you're getting two of the mixed up, but because the being that you're referring to, I think was from Bill Herman.

Bill Herman in the late 70s had a few abduction cases. He was the one who took some of the clearest photos of UFOs ever taken, you know, whether or not those are real. I don't know what to tell you, but he took these photos and he has a story to go along with it. And he gets taken aboard in these small beings with these sponge-like, the spongy sort of skin, pale skin, large heads, kind of like these guys, but almond-colored eyes and sort of rust-colored tracksuits

with this emblem. But those exact beings are described to the T by Travis Walton, who in his encounter did have humanoids as well. And so I think you might be mixing maybe the two cases up. And I asked Travis as well. I was like, do you remember seeing an insignia? He's like, no, I wasn't looking for that. It was busy trying to get the fuck out of Dodge, you know, being kidnapped and trying to like fend off a bunch of aliens with a clear tube. But yeah, it comes up there, but it comes up also in the west, on the West Coast,

there's another case of this Hispanic gentleman who was taken by these beings who had slit-like eyes and they wore like a one-piece gray suit with like some type of earbox with an antenna. And they as well had the winged serpent as a logo. And they were saying some of the same stuff. So I don't know whether that's, again, you know, what is that? What are we talking about here? Are we talking about complete confabulation or hallucination or projection embodiment by this phenomenon? Like, what is that? Yeah. And the Greek stuff is interesting as well because I remember that there are some big cases where apparently there was Greek. It might have been Kingman or Rendelsham or both that may have had Greek or like literal Greek like symbols.

Well, it looked like Greek. The stuff at Rendlesham. And the stuff. I think at Kexburgh. Kexburgh. But Greek symbolism looks like alien writing as well. Kind of. You know, it's very similar. Yeah. Yeah.

Either that or very sort of Chinese or Japanese looking. Like, um, Kanji. Because I know Shihan drew it out for you, he drew it out for me too, where it sort of looked almost like Kana or something. Yeah. Or Korean writing. Yeah.

That's how Bob describes it. Bob was art. Oh, okay. Because there was like circles and lines and Korean features that as well. And if you look at the carrot documents, I don't know if you've ever seen these. I don't think so. They also look like sort of Japanese, sort of Asian kanji or whatever. I wanted to actually bring something up now that we're sort of on the topic of Greek mythology.

General McCasland, this general who worked at Wright Pat, who is apparently tied up with like the whole UFO stuff, went missing. He's been missing now for probably a month. or at least several weeks. And a lot has sort of transpired in terms of conspiracy around his disappearance. But one thing that he said, and one thing that we touched on, I think on your podcast, was him relaying the information that if you wanted to understand the phenomenon, you would need to look into Greek mythology. And that's kind of haunted me since we had that conversation. I want to get into the Greek mythology. And it's part of the reason, you know, you're here today, I think, is to help fill that gap for me.

How do you see Greek mythology, you know, what do you make of that statement by General McCaslin that, looking at the phenomenon, you need to understand Greek mythology? What does that mean for you? Yeah, well, and he puts specific emphasis on the Prometheus myth structure, which is essentially you have this deity who's part of, I believe he's actually not an Olympian, but he's a Titan, I believe. And he's actually, he has a brother named Epimetheus. So Prometheus means something like forethought, and epimetheus means something like afterthought, which is interesting because you got to like look deeper into what they mean by saying that, right? When you're sitting across from somebody for two, maybe three hours at a time, you tend to notice everything. How you show up. How focused you are.

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And if that's not for you, they make it right, no questions asked. That's harries.com slash area 52 and tell him area 52 sent you. Stay sharp. So what he does is he takes fire, he brings it to the humans, you know, and then he gets punished basically eternally

for taking a divine power and bringing it down to humanity without permission. So, and the punishment is he gets put on this island, I don't remember the name of the island, but then this eagle comes and eats his liver every single day and it regenerates and he's chained up there for eternity and just keeps getting this punishment

visited upon him over and over and over again. So, I mean, the broad strokes of it seem kind of obvious, right? That there was probably some kind of entity, technology higher higher power that at some point came here and either gave us something or did something or seeded something and that had huge repercussions on what we are and it's hard to know how deep to read into this right does that mean they gave us technology does it mean they gave us language knowledge does it mean they manipulated our DNA does it mean they literally seeded the

entire planet like there's so many levels you can go uh And then that ties in again to like without getting too far off topic, but like the Elohim and like the Nephilim and all the derivatives of that sort of ancient biblical lore as well. Right. Kind of has the same story, but go on with the Greek stuff. Well, yeah. Well, I do kind of want to bring up the first book of Enoch now where that is a great example of this. And the thing is, is I don't know verbatim what he actually said. I'm sort of regurgitating this from talking to Levenda because Levinna.

because Lovenda and DeLong wrote secret machines together where this comes from is WikiLeaks the conversations between Podesta and McCasland and DeLong and then by way of DeLong

Levenda are happening through these emails and that's how we know that this was said and I think Tom publicly said that and didn't name names but then the names came out of that it was McCasland

so that seems to be the provenance of where this is coming from and it is really interesting because that's a story that I think you could hear, like hearing Tom DeLongbe, I'm talking to all these high-level military people, you could easily be like, yeah, sure you are. And then it comes out. And then for me, that skyrockets my conviction because it shows he really was having conversations at a very high level. So then you have to ask yourself, okay, what is McCasland trying to communicate here? I guess you also have to consider could he be trying to mislead or play games with them, right? I don't know this guy. Sure. Or could he just be like, read between the lines? I can't tell you exactly what's happening, but I can point you in the right direction. Yeah. You can perhaps make some discovery. And what we do know is, is there are some interesting harmonics here, too, because from within the military industrial complex, there are other people who have very similar lines of interest, right? Like semivand talks about neoplatonism. Colonel Nell talks about all of this esoteric and spiritual stuff. Jim Ryder, who was the VP of something at Lockheed. gave that whole talk. Have you seen that? It's on YouTube. I haven't watched the whole thing yet,

but I've seen clips of it. And he's getting extremely esoteric and going down all these mythological rabbit holes. So it's not, it's not some weird one-off. There does seem to be an interest, just like we were saying before, among not just people like Heineck who are going down these rabbit holes and they become very esoteric and spiritual, but people from within the military industrial complex, who presumably have knowledge that we don't have, end up going this direction. Yeah, and it's refreshing to hear that direction. Yeah. Versus the angels and demons direction.

Totally. And they might be one in the same. They might be absolutely identical in terms of referencing and in terms of metaphor. But for me, it takes it out of that sort of religious connotation, that sort of cult-like mind state and brings it into more of like a philosophical when you talk about the Greeks rather than, you know, what happened in the Bible. And we could be talking about one and the same things. Totally. But the Greek stuff to me, I think appeals a little bit more to me because it doesn't feel so preachy.

Yeah. It doesn't feel charged with some sort of acts to grind or thing to prove or dogma that you've have some preconceived notion of must be true. And plus we know that that kind of binary narrative can lead to all kinds of manipulation and othering. Greek mythology is like a neutral territory where everybody can kind of get behind it because it's kind of stories and lore and it feels more fictitious and not so grounded in reality, but also has the potential to be, you know, really enlightening. And on this topic,

I think one of the most sophisticated commenters in the space on it is Levenda for sure. And I think broadly what he's trying to draw attention to is say, hey, when we look at these ancient stories that we say are mythological and can't be true or they've got to be sort of, of archaic understandings of how reality works by people who didn't have science and they didn't, whatever, we got to not be that dismissive. And we really need to ask questions about what kinds of experiences were these predicated off of? Like what are they really trying to say and what words would we use from a modern POV on these questions? And what I love is he does not have a clean answer. When you talk to him, he's very epistemically humble. He'll bring up everything from a, you

know, esoteric magic with a K and cosmic assent work and ancient alien sorts of hypotheses. He brings it all up. And at the end of the day, he's like, I don't know. Like, I really don't know. But I know it's not simple. And I know, and he doesn't even think disclosure on the part of the kinds of people we're talking about is possible because it is so complex and multifaceted. Can't be reduced to nuts and bolts. Can't be reduced to mythology. It's some kind of synthesis of something that's so much bigger and so, much more complex than we can easily wrap human language around. And that's where I go to, man. That's where my mind gravitates. Because think about how complex the human psyche is. Now let's just, let's just for sake of easy argument, say that there's a literal alien race that's 10 times more advanced than us. There's no way you can make sense of whatever it is. There's no way you can say,

ah, that's just some high-level technology that would be indistinguishable from magic from the human P-O. It's not just anything. It would be so much more. It would be completely different understanding of reality, probably 10 times deeper understanding of physics than what we have. Yeah, whatever it is would make no sense. Right. It would make no logical sense. And our logic, the logic that we've developed over, you know, a few centuries. Yeah. Would be so small in comparison to the logic that they're operating on. It would be incomparable. Totally, man. And even, you know, one of my favorite things to do when we get into these really far-flung areas that we can't even prognosticate what it would be about, we can look back at our own way of understanding and look at what our, you know, you had Newton, right? And after Newton, we went to relativity. And then after relativity, we went to quantum. And we already have two complex of a constellation of physics ideas to even make sense of. So now we're in this place where you have all competing ideas for how quantum physics works.

Side note, it's also interesting that we just keep developing and keep doing stuff without even really knowing what we're doing or why quantum stuff works the way that it does, but we just keep going and we just keep going. Now extrapolate that over a thousand years. Now think, well, maybe at some point there is no difference between consciousness and physics, or we understand that consciousness is something to do with physics or vice versa. And then the snake eats its own tail and then we make some sort of of crazy breakthrough.

I have to imagine that even a civilization, like a literal living embodied civilization, would eventually get to that point, given another thousand, let alone millions of years. And I don't even think that's what we're talking about, by and large. I think we're talking about something that's probably not even physical. So, so yeah, man, it's a lot to try to grapple with. It really is a lot to grok. It's such a big pill to swallow when you think of ontology. you think of, I mean, just the nature of consciousness itself.

Like, you know, everybody has their own definition of what consciousness is, first of all. None of us can really define what that is. There's no clean definition of what consciousness is. Some people will say, oh, it's everything, or it's the energy in everything, or it's your soul, or it's, you know, everything is conscious, or it's all one. And then you start getting into a time, doesn't exist, space doesn't exist. It's just our perception of it. And like it's so, I'll use your word, mercurial.

There is, it's really hard to pin down what any of this is. But I think one thing, which is really refreshing in today's day and age, is that it seems like we are collectively starting to go back to the idea that consciousness is fundamental. Yeah. And that is something, you know, I think about the end of the 30-year war in 1648, this was like, when the Roman Catholics were at war for basically, it was the separation of church and state. It was taking religion out of politics and that created these sovereign sort of states in Europe. And ideas were then began to be freely exchanged between people who had not communicated before without the possibility of being sort of reprimanded for thinking that way, which began sort of the invisible college.

and had everybody sort of, you know, once we separated church and state, they started separating science in church as well. And that's where discovery really started happening when, you know, ideas were free forming, free flowing. But after a while, what happened is that there was such a resentment from either side opposing one another. Like there was such resentment from people who, you know, wanted the science stuff because they'd been repressed so long by the church. that they wanted to completely emancipate from, from, you know, that side of things, that they began resenting each other. And they became so individualized. And over time, it's gotten us pretty far in physics to do that. But we're now at a point, we're at a standstill with physics, with a lot of things.

and it seems like the snake eating its own tail, like we've had to come back to at least acknowledging that consciousness could be a fundamental part of the universe. And to attain the study of that consciousness, you might have to be spiritual. And so that's where the religion, and I say religion loosely, but the whole spirituality sort of concept comes back in. And that seems like where we're at now. We're at this converging place where eventually inevitably will have to turn back to spirituality in order to understand the fundamental physics that operate invisibly around us. Yeah. Yeah, I absolutely think so. And there has been an explosion in idealist philosophy. So again, the idea that consciousness is somehow fundamental. So the biggest probably names are going to find in this kind of milieu are

Dr. Donald Hoffman, Dr. Bernardo Castro, and like Federico, regime and they're all really interesting and they all have their own sort of twists, but they're all largely on the same page in terms of the bigger picture. It's that this reality that we perceive with our physical senses is either not reality at all up to an almost simulation level. Like Don actually goes beyond simulation, which I love about him. And I'll explain what that means in a second. But at the very least, it is a very poor representation. of whatever the higher reality is. Like, it's a very tiny pixel of what the truth is.

And we have to be in this kind of a state for evolutionary fitness purposes, right? Like, if we had too much of reality coming in, like, let's just say we were seeing other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum that we couldn't interact with, but are real. That would actually degrade our fitness because we'd be getting overwhelmed by information we don't need. So that's one aspect of it, is that it actually makes a lot of logical sense that we don't really need to perceive reality. We need to perceive what we need to perceive to survive, to reproduce, to do the things human beings need to do. And that's part of this Don Hoffman guy's argument.

But when I say that he goes beyond simulation, he argues that based on his work that he did in cognitive science over the course of his whole career, that he actually proved through evolutionary game theory that if you create a population that perceives even one percent of the true reality, they die. They all die off. But if you tune them just for fitness payoff, so like avoid these things that kill you, eat these things, reproduce this way, they'll thrive and they'll grow and whatever. So he truly believes that we perceive zero percent of reality and that whatever is outside of Plato's cave or outside of the simulation is the true reality. And that is a realm comprised of consciousness. And he has this whole crazy theory of what he calls conscious agents that exist behind the veil

of this physical world, basically. Who are they gatekeeping? Well, in theory, we are also conscious agents, but this is just a piece of technical terminology that he's using to be able to say, I'm not just talking about a concept here. I'm talking about something mathematically specific, and I can represent a conscious agent

using what's called a Markov chain and basically like this mathematical concept that allows you to have this entity that can make certain levels of decisions and have agency and stuff like that. So he's actually trying to merge. He's not a physicist, but he works with physicists and mathematicians

where he's trying to merge cutting-edge physics with what we're talking about. So not just saying, oh yeah, consciousness, it's this other thing and we can't ever explain it with math and physics. He agrees with that, but he still thinks we should try.

And he thinks his theory is going to fail, but he thinks in the failing we're going to be failing forward. And we're going to make huge leaps in discovery and technology because he thinks we really can basically unveil this realm of conscious agents. Have you ever seen the artist that does pictures using math equations? I don't think so. Oh, my God. Can I show this to you right quick? Yeah, sure.

that up too. I mean, if you sincerely consider what he's saying, oh, so he like writes out mathematical equations and then they result in pictures. Yes. Whoa, dude. Right. That is a kind of brain that I do not have. That's godlike. Yeah, it's nuts, man. So, you know, when you're, when you're speaking about how, you know, how could math possibly represent reality, I don't have an idea of how that could even be possible. Like, you know, there are certain concepts. You know, there are certain concepts that are so strange to talk about because they're just, oh, this is, you know, the way light behaves and whatever. And then some guy can go, oh, here, I wrote 19 pages of letters and numbers and symbols. Right. That explain what you're feeling right now. And you're like,

huh? And so although it's hard for me to conceive, it's not impossible for humans to conceive of a reality that might be entirely numerical. Right. Right. And even if it's not a reality, the thing that's so interesting is you can't make stuff, right, without really coherent mathematical theories that you can then turn into applied technologies, like applied engineering, right? Yeah. So that your engineering, to some degree, is going to be constrained by your theories, right? Like, you can't do things that you don't have mathematical concepts and equations for. So that's why, okay, now we have quantum, right? So we can start asking the question,

like what if we were using, you know, non-binary, non-bullion, all these different concepts to put into computers and it unlocks this whole realm of possibilities, right? Now imagine another iteration over the top of that where we have this whole other system where you can model these conscious agents and stuff like that, man.

I don't think we can even conceive of what it practically means yet because we haven't gotten to that point of applying it into technologies. But I wanted to say, too, that this has really obvious implications for the phenomenon, right? Like, if this is a simulacra or a simulation, or the terminology Don likes to use as a headset, that this is like a headset, basically, an evolutionarily convenient headset. You ask the question of what these conscience, conscious agents are behind the headset.

I mean, that basically explains the phenomenon, right? It's entities coming from this realm of conscious agents interacting with you in a way that is anomalous and weird. Yeah. Like it sounds a lot like. Yeah, we had this discussion yesterday a little bit and something that I've been mulling over in my head too. Like if I was to create a program and have a little guy in this program, you know, do stuff like in a blender type way. Like he's making shapes and he's behaving and he's got AI that I, you know, uploaded into his mind. he thinks he's alone.

He thinks that's reality. You know, if he has complete artificial intelligence embedded with his program, then he thinks, yeah, this is life, right? He doesn't know that I'm sitting here behind a computer screen, making him, giving him epiphanies, you know, if I type in, hey, build a sandcastle. And he just goes, huh, I should build a sandcastle. That's a great, I just had this thing come to me where I should build a sandcastle. And he builds a sandcastle and he learns from it.

The models growing. And you're like, oh, cute, but it's not fast enough. So I drag and drop a sandcastle from a different window perfectly into his vicinity. And now he goes, he starts measuring it. And he goes, this is the sandcastle is pristine. It is remarkably perfect. Like there's no way that our technology could replicate this sandcastle. And it changes him.

It inspires his curiosity. he becomes sort of he thrives now and and is becoming as a result of witnessing something impossible, more complex. He is a more complex structure than he was prior to witnessing this little perfect thing that I dragged in. And so if you were to look at our reality in that same way where there are maybe not so, you know, so easy to explain, they're not just sitting there with a headset and, you know, smoking weed and whatever. Maybe they are, but the idea that they could just drop shit into our existence, like these eggs at these ranges or these UFOs that are floating in a hangar that they can't seem to get working, um, that might, that might be the whole point is just to like keep our consciousness

guessing and create more complexity in the model. Yeah. Because if the model is more, like, as it asks more questions, it grows more complex and it becomes a more of a complete model that you can use. So, you know, are we just stress? Are they just stress testing? Are reality for like the next? Yeah, or like providing the carrot, the sort of, you know, valet sort of technological carrot to make us noodle on something that we're, it's almost like, like in your old life receiving a puzzle box that you're like, oh man, how do I solve this? But now imagine that on some sort of a higher level where essentially a higher entity is dropping you a puzzle box.

Dude, and that leads to some insanely schizo, but really fun rabbit holes because you could think of like, wait a minute, what if the Pyramid of Giza is one of those? Or what if like these megalithic ruins that we look at and we're like, that is not possible? Or what if it's just synchronicity? Totally. Or what if it's like this epiphany? Yep. This light bulb eureka moment in your mind that you go, oh, like Nikola Tesla. What was he drawing like steam engines in the sand when he was 17 or whatever in Serbia?

Like where did that come from, right? This divine sort of boom, you have access to this cloud of information all of a sudden that you should not have access to, that no one is ever that you're just discovering for the first time. And you're able to draw it out so clearly. And sometimes two people across the world having that same idea. Yeah. It was the one recently I saw where Dennis the Menace was created at the exact same time, both in America and the UK. Same character, same name, same everything. Parallel thinking is real, dude.

Yeah. Yeah. Another famous example of that is Isaac Newton and Leibniz, both basically in parallel solved calculus at the same time. Like came up with it and solved calculus. And Newton always gets the credit for it, but Leibniz also did it at the same time, apparently. So yeah, there's a lot of, like, and there's a lot of creative examples, too, of people basically writing the same story or someone starting a story and then never finishing it. and then all of a sudden someone else puts it out, it's nuts, dude. And yeah, when you bring what we're talking about to the psychical level,

that is the most fun, most schizo, yet I think also the most probably parsimonious or realistic option, in that it is very difficult to say where ideas come from. And a lot of times they do seem like they're just coming from outside. Like there's some orthogonal information that just comes from some other place that just is instantly beamed into your mind. Particularly, I mean, once you start traversing non-ordinary states of consciousness or you really pay attention during hypnagogic states, you know, as you're going in and out of sleep, weird stuff just appears there sometimes, like weird images, weird, almost auditory crackles. And I'm not saying...

Yeah. Screams. Yeah. Some people hear, um, some people hear, yeah, like, like, screams like, yeah. Woo-hoo. Like, like... I think I actually have heard stuff like that now that you say, that. Yeah. Or door slamming? It's weird, man. And so I don't know if that's just the weird workings of the mind as it's shutting down for the night or if that truly is having like a clear audience kind of just picking up

information from the ether. But obviously I'm very open to that. And of course, I'm always fantasizing about getting some kind of confirmation, right? And I want to say that there are maybe one or two times in my life where I feel like I've gotten that confirmation. But by and large, it's just like. It just feels like chatter from the ether that maybe you're picking up on. But, yeah, man, Nikola Tesla, I have no doubt that that guy had to have been tapped into higher consciousness or NHI or whatever you want to call it because he literally talks about hearing voices or communicating with voices from the time he was very young.

I just finished reading that new Science of Heaven book and he comes up in that book. And dude, he had these luminous manifestation like experiences that's. sound like something that a platonic or Gnostic mystic would talk about, where he would find himself in these realms of fire, what felt like sentient fire with like tongues of fire all around him and what he felt like was higher intelligence all around him. So yeah, man, that guy was plugged into something. I mean, if you, you see him just sitting in that room surrounded by Tesla coils going off. Yeah. It is, I mean, the biggest example of aura farming I've ever seen in my life. Yeah, he's like sitting there with his legs crossed. Yeah, his legs crossed taking

notes while there's just like a trillion volts of energy, just like this sparkling around him. You know, he's been involved in like so many other countless stories from, you know, that have to do with time travel. Didn't he also say that he would create a force field dome, that he could do that as well for the governments? I don't know. Yeah. There's like a lot of like the guy invented so many things. Like, we don't realize how many things are patented by Tesla as well. There's like a, he's got a whole list of patents that he invented. Yeah, he also caused an earthquake in New York once, I believe.

Right. My friend, I think my friend, I think my friend, I think my friend, I think my friend, what he was doing. But I know my friend MJ Dorian put a clip of this up on his YouTube channel of him telling this story about how he was causing an earthquake because of some, I think it was some electromagnetic thing that he was doing. And the police actually showed up. And he's like, don't worry, gentlemen, I'll have it shut down in no time.

But it was like literally making the whole building and the whole block shake or something like that. I could be getting the details of this story wrong. It wouldn't surprise me. He's the most enigmatic character of our time. Yeah. More so than anyone else, I think. It's so strange how we today... Pardon me.

We today reference Einstein so readily, but dismiss Nikola Tesla, you know, when he, in fact, is the progenitor of so many breakthrough ways of thinking about energy and high voltage especially. And, you know, he was, he was putting forward some of the most groundbreaking, life-changing technology that we would ever come across. Like he, you know, he said, hey, I'm going to have free energy for the world, which was a huge threat for people back then, for, you know, the people in power. But this guy was doing these things. He was thinking that big. We have yet to encounter someone who has thought as far and wide as Nicola Tesla has. Do you think they would let him, I don't even know if they let him live today.

No, definitely not. Yeah, it makes you wonder if there was a Tesla that's been shut down. Because you got to, because, and you know what, from the, from the POV of the hypothetical gatekeepers, whether we're talking about gatekeepers, or just the government, the types of technology we can flirt with now, just coupling AI. and, I don't know, germ theory and everything else that's out there, dude, you could do some real, real damage if you were just some kind of malevolent genius psychopath. Like, villains in comic books could be real at this point. Like, there are technologies out there that could make comic book level villains real at this point. Sure. And that's terrifying, yeah.

And not so much the stuff that could make superheroes. Yeah, not really. We haven't caught up to the toxic goo that makes you stronger yet. No, no. Unfortunately, radioactive has quite an adverse reaction to your body. Yeah. And unfortunately, it doesn't make you into a super being. Maybe peptides.

I hear a lot of good things about peptides. Just kind of gives you, like, lymphatic cancer, really. It makes your eyes bleed. Yeah, not quite the Stanley universe that we all had hoped for. I guess not. I guess not. What do you think in terms of cutting edge technologies that are rumored to exist, you know, through the work of people like Tesla or these other, you know, T-Towns and Browns or whatever? Do you think that there are any of those technologies that have truly reached sort of clandestine maturity?

Have you seen evidence to that effect at all? I haven't seen evidence of it, but I don't doubt it. Like, I mean, we're always sort of 30 years ahead, at least in technological. sort of breakthroughs regarding if you just take like the stealth bomber, for example, you know, there were rumors of the stealth bomber 30 years prior to it coming out. So I assume we're 30 plus years ahead of the curb. What 30 years looks like on an exponential technological growth chart. Right.

might be might look like a thousand years rather than 30 to us because of the you know just the ramping up of technology and the ramping up of propulsion specifically you know if you look at the way we started with fire right and then it took 2,000 years sorry to develop like you know coal systems and then a steam engine and then from there to get a, you know, Gunpowder, you know, we went from 2,000 years to 200 years to 20 years to five years. It's going exponential all the way to nuclear. And it's kind of shortening every single time. These breakthrough discoveries in propulsion specifically, an explosion like energy.

And by that same metric, we should be already well past the next step. It feels like the technology. But we're not. Doesn't it, by and large? Well, nuclear is. is like right after, like, I mean, if you look at all of the steps we had and how they shorten, just on a lot, like, it, it goes like this. The chart just goes, whoop, straight up. We're way past due. Yes. For another propulsion system. Right. If you look at that chart. And the fact that we don't, to me, signals that there had to be intervention. I think so, man. Yeah, that that's the sense that I get is that the sort of masses have been left behind and there's probably some elite. group that has access to whatever this other technology is. And I don't know if they're totally cloistering it and saving it as like a trump card or if they really are using it secretly.

I don't know, man, but it does feel that way. Like whenever you ride on a, like the airplane I rode here. It's like, it had to be like 30 years old, you know? And even the new versions of that are not that different. It's just nicer on the inside, maybe a little more efficient, but it's basically the same thing. So you got to ask the question why. Like where, like why, even, even other conventional things we know of. We don't have nuclear airplanes. We don't have electric airplanes by and large. We're like stuck in this, this combustion engine propulsion sort of mindset that I feel like has to be, it's probably just this hegemonic thing where you have these giant corporate entities that want to ensure that that stays the status quo so we don't

disrupt their profits. We don't disrupt the economy. But yeah, man, I, but that's also my, believing. That also might be why the phenomenon is presenting itself. Could they? Right. At the edges of science, when science begins, when science begins rounding itself out, when we begin rounding out the edges, there's always some breakthrough. Right. Right when you get to the end and we're like, hey, this is all we got.

We're just polishing, you know, a thing at the, we're not doing any crazy major breakthroughs anymore. That's usually when something disruptive happens where you get this Einstein, Tesla-type genius, suddenly. you know, in some small country he emerges, or we get some breakthrough discovery due to some natural or cataclysmic event or a war or something. Like something happens that creates, you know, at least a boundless way of thinking. Right now we're kind of bound. And then something happens where we go, oh, and we open. And that, the phenomenon to me seems like it might be acting on that behalf.

Yeah. And for whatever reasons, these, you know, war-mongering elite sort of capitalist, you know, gatekeepers are preventing the phenomenon from showing itself to people in a way using their own technology. Yeah. So perhaps in that same way, are controlling the narrative, are shaping the narrative, and are filling their pockets. But it's the reason we're so long overdue for another breakthrough. Yeah. is that they've been hoarding the very phenomenon that's been trying to make us advance. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, we definitely need something. It feels like it feels like the direction we're going in is untenable for so many different reasons. And I hope that that's true. And I don't, we were talking about this before, too, is that, like, I really try not to gravitate toward malevolent versions of the conversation when it comes to the phenomenon, because it's so disempowering. And it's, you know, if you truly take this some version of the Gnostic evil,

demiurgic, alien, you know, if that's the standpoint you take, you've really robbed yourself of basically any agency, right? Like you're trapped in some prison. What are you going to do? What are you going to do about it? There's basically nothing you can do about it. So that's one reason. But I also just don't see how it makes sense that beings that are so much more advanced than we are would really need to take advantage of us in that way. It seems like they should be well beyond the need to like use us to mine gold or you know the sort of sitchens narrative yes and no so i'll play devil's advocate here only because i feel like if you're doing this on one planet you're doing it on a trillion planet so although if yes if we were alone it might seem

completely of no consequence or just why why are they doing this to this planet why you know why couldn't they just go elsewhere but what if it is every single planet and there are a trillion millions of them and they're all sort of looshing off these people. You know, for me, that might be, that could be a possibility. But also, I think more in the sense of building a model. So if you're building a model, you would want to optimize that model if you're AI, you would want to have the most potential for complexity to arise. Like you would need entropy to feed the model information.

And the more entropy, the more complexity exists, the more information is being pumped into the model, right? And by having 7 billion people with individual consciousness or seemingly individual consciousnesses, you gather way more valuable intel and information than if they were all telepathic. and sharing one mind. You're essentially on one planet studying seven billion civilizations.

Yeah. And that might be incredibly valuable, like, if you're studying anything. You know, if I live in a place where everything thinks the same or at least shares thought, to study a small place with seven billion individual thoughts, that's a gold mine in itself. Yeah. And I can see, I mean, there are versions. See, that to me doesn't necessarily sound malevolent. No. It could take on what looks like malevolence from our POV.

Neutral, but neutrality could look like, yeah, malevolence to the people being studied for sure. Yeah. And I think that if something like the psychosperiritual picture, I think, is the most likely thing to explain a lot of what's going on, I think if that's true, I think there actually would be a moment where we would realize that, hey, even if there is something that's kind of orchestrating things and maybe even doing a light version of human fire. me or something like that, maybe there is a reason that it would not be malevolent in the same way, like, you're not malevolent for having a dog and, you know, enforcing rules on the dog and trying to teach the dog things. It could be something like that. And I don't, I'm not saying I want to be, you know, some ultra-terrestrial's pet or whatever. But it's not your choice. I'm not saying I don't. Maybe it'd be dope, man. It's not the worst, it's not the worst case scenario. I can think of worse things. But also the idea that, you know, you go to see a doctor and if you're a child

and the doctor pokes you, you think, oh, it's a bad man. It's a bad man he hurt me. Right. The doctor who's giving you something understands that what he's giving you to his understanding is good for you. Yeah. Come to find out later that whatever he gave you was an untested vaccine and it's actually very bad for you, but the doctor doesn't know that. You know, so there is Self-censored here. Well, what I'm saying is that there is something beyond the doctor, too. So like whatever morality, if that even is part of the equation, that these beings exist on to do their farming or their gathering or they're collecting, you know, they might not have the full picture either, is what I'm saying. And there might be something over them that they're just trying to understand.

Like if you were trying to max out consciousness to see, to create an apotheosis, a separation from God. And to, if you're an AI entity and you're trying to create consciousness or God-like consciousness, you know, you would have to attempt to max it out in real time to see what that would look like. And so having all of these interbreeding different planets that you're just kind of seeding, and, you know, introducing complexity through these UAP, through this phenomenon, through these apparitions, inspiring and stoking the flame of curiosity of all these passionate little individuals as they're collectively mining experience to feed consciousness. Maybe at the end of all that, maybe they end up understanding what it all is. Yeah. And that's all they're trying to do. Yeah. Yeah. And my friend, um,

Ike Baker. He's a brilliant esotericist author guy. Actually brought me to tears on a podcast once, just saying to have the hubris, to think that you can even understand what it would be like for something that we would perceive to be a god to be moral is insane. Like in the same way that we were talking about, imagine an alien that's 10 times smarter and you're trying to understand its technology. you also are not going to be able to understand its ethics, its motives, what its more advanced understanding of right and wrong is, and that doesn't negate your own suffering in the same way that it wouldn't negate your pets suffering if it's going through something, but also to try to ascribe malevolence to that thing might be totally misguided. And something about that feels intuitively true to me, because, and this is something,

I mean, anytime you go down the knowledge-seeking, sense-making rabbit hole, you're going to confront why is reality like this? Why is it so ordered yet there's so much suffering? Why is there so much great stuff? But why does all these things happen that seem like they're just pointless, excessive suffering, like children getting diseases and, you know, pets getting cancer and just all of these things? And you're trying to somehow synthesize all of these truths together. And the only thing that that makes any level of sense to me is that there's, is there is an Implicate order, but somewhere within the implicate order, there's like attenuation and loss in the intention that's just a natural result of what it's like to be physical.

You know, it's something like that. It's like just in the same way that if you were writing a computer program and there's errors happening, it's like, ah, I'm trying to do this, but that keeps happening and I'm going to have to figure out a work around for this. But at the same time, it's feeding the model. Yeah. All those errors are very valuable. Right. That's true. So it's like, It's self-sustaining. Yeah. Although the physicalness that we, that we live creates these errors that you mentioned. These errors help the physical being survive longer.

Yeah. You know, so it's a feedback loop. Yeah. You know, we would learn nothing if we had just a seamless existence. If there's no bad, then there's no good. you know, if there's no falling, then there's no getting up. And so I think, I think in order for us to be physical, you need both components. You need the yin and the yang, the good, the bad, the up, the down.

And that contrast and that balance is very important to sort of self-sustain. Maybe that's the thing they don't have in this other dimension. Maybe everything is instant manifestation. Yeah. And it's easily attained. And for them, you know, it's much more of, you know, It's a much more value to maybe incarnate or, you know, instantiate in physical forms to walk through the mud slowly. Yeah.

And manifest something over a lifetime, you know, it's filled with values and character-building moments that maybe that's something that they need for their model or whatever. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we well could be undergoing some kind of gestation here. And it seems like that there's even, that's a common sort of trope in New Age, spirituality, right? Like, this is a school. This is like, you know, we're here to learn. And I'm always like, yeah, I think that there could be truth to that, but that also seems a little

too simplistic because we're, we're, there's a lot of things that happen here that cause no learning. It just sucks. It's just there are things that are unfortunate. And yeah, they might build character indirectly, but that's, that cannot be the best way to go about doing that. And it puts us in the center of the universe once again. Yeah, right. Yeah. And, and, and, I don't know, man. That's a whole separate topic. I don't want to lose my train of thought. Where was I going with this? I know I was headed toward some sort of like platonic point, but now I'm forgetting what it was. That's divine intervention right there, Michael. Maybe it was. They were like, you're getting too close to the truth, wipe this man's memory. I'm just going to, I'm going to try to walk my way through it. So I was thinking about a couple of different things having to do with Plato. One thing is that. there was actually this idea of what we were talking about of like errors in the code. Obviously they didn't have that language, but in probably

the most difficult platonic dialogue, which is different than all the rest of them, it's called Tamaus. This guy named Tamaus, who's supposed to be a Pythagorean sage, comes and gives a lecture to Socrates and all the students, and he gives the whole story of, you know,

God's try to bless me. I'm going to try to tell you how we believe reality was constructed. And then it goes into this whole you know, harmonic, mathematical, geometric sort of story of how the divine mind created reality. And for everybody watching, this is the Demiurge,

but it's not the evil Demiourge. The evil Demiourge comes much later. Not to be confused with the Demigorgon. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love Stranger Things, by the way. Stranger Things is such a fantastic show. But, yeah, so basically the Demiurge is using these divine transcendent non-physical principles

to create a work of art, more or less, using those principles, but he's aware of the fact that it will be imperfect because you're taking these non-physical things, like, you know, where does a triangle exist? Not here, but yet it does exist in everyone's mind. So if you make even the most perfect triangle, it won't be perfect. You can get it down to like a micron of error,

but there will always be an error. So there's this idea they build. into this construction that they call, I think it's a non-key, and they also call the errant cause, which is basically by virtue of doing this, it necessitates a bunch of stuff's going to go wrong. And it necessitates that you've got physical complexity of all these different parts and pieces moving around. That means they're going to break down. That means it's going to have all these other things happen downstream of it, which to us will be suffering, right? So in that way, you could conceive of something being both problematic and seeming even evil, right? Like, that's why the-

Yeah, why would you create something just to have it be imperfect and, yeah, and painful, yeah. But yet it's like a natural thing and we're doing the same thing on our level, right? Like, you've created all of this awesome stuff. Like, we're all trying to do that and we're all, we're all little demiurges of our own universe or we should be. I think we should be. I think that's part of the point of being human. But in doing that, you're going to indirectly make a bunch of mistakes and, you know, make some enemies maybe. But that's not your intention, right? And I think that's, it's probably something like that all the way up if I had to get. But it also, like I said, it also does kind of help. You know, it feeds the model. Once again, like all these little errors,

although you might not see how it helps you. That doesn't mean that it doesn't. You don't live for maybe as long as you need to to see the result. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it's, If you look at the tragedies that have happened over the last century, you look at, oh, the war or, you know, so many terrible things have happened to a lot of people. But if you fast forward, perhaps a few hundred years from that point, and you realize that the technology that was derived from those, you know, pressure cooking moments, actually ended up creating, you know, hopefully a more sustainable, peaceful existence on the planet, right? So that's that sort of Taoist, there is no good, there is no bad. You just don't have enough, you can't zoom out enough to see it. You know, was that old story, the guy, you know, the farmer who lost his horse. And then the neighbor's like, oh, that's bad.

And he's like, I don't know if it's good or bad. And then he wins it back because he like won some lottery. And the guy goes, oh, it's good. And he goes, I don't know if it's good or bad. And then his son rides the horse one day. falls off and breaks his leg. And the neighbor goes, that's bad. He's like, I don't know.

You know, I don't know what's good or bad. And then conscription came around because there was a war and they couldn't draft him because he had a broken leg. Right. And so the neighbor goes, oh, that's good, you know, and so on and so forth. It's like, you don't know what's good. And so for us to say something's good or bad, I think is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I think it's more of, does this help the model grow? And I think the answer is overwhelmingly yes.

Yep. Even if it does seem incredibly pointless and evil and meaningless, I think still something comes from it. Yeah. Going back to weird lore and weird overlaps between esoteric and potentially UFO stuff, there's one link that I don't hear people talking about very often, which I think is very worth exploring, which is there's this whole sect of people. people who are interested in the phenomenon that's like following the whole weird Nazi rabbit hole, right? Of these like, of these like hyperborean beings that might be like the Nordics or whatever.

I actually don't. I actually think that's a misnomer. I think the hyperborean aren't the Nordics. Yeah. I think there's a different race, but yeah. Well, that's sort of an aside. But anyway, you know who else was obsessed with the hyperbarians was the ancient Greeks? Really?

Because they had these tales of these sort of supermen sages, basically, who came from Hyperborea, so somewhere in the far north. And they could do all of these insane things. Like they could be said to, you know, transform into ravens. They could bilocate. They could basically do what sounds exactly like remote viewing. So like Abaris, the Hyperbarian is one. And I get some of these people confused with one another because they have similar feats. but Pythagoras is also said to be in this lineage.

And like Plato is right downstream of this lineage because he's also said to be a Pythagorean initiate as well. So there's this idea that there's this high wisdom that came way from somewhere in the like remote remote north from these beings that were definitely more than just regular men that were super wise and they're also wonder workers and stuff. And then you get into this weird Nazi lore that unfortunately gets. It's like super racist very quickly. But if you like push all of that stuff aside, the idea that there could be some advanced race that's like polar or from this very weird far north snowy climate, this is something that has reverberated through the ages. And I'm really fascinated by this.

And this is one of my favorite explanations for the phenomenon that there could be some breakaway civilization group here, who are basically indistinguishable from these really advanced esoteric initiates. and they might have a whole different branch of technology that looks more like what you saw in ancient Egyptian temple craft and, you know, like, megalithic, where we look at those civilizations and we're like, they had some crazy technology, we don't understand. Some Stargate stuff. What were they doing?

Maybe it's this kind of stuff. You know, maybe it's these people who are closer to some sort of source, or maybe they keep themselves cloistered or both. and they still exist, but they're careful about disseminating or showing themselves, or maybe they've, you know, infiltrated Valiant Thor style and they're sort of, they look just like us and they're just hanging out. I think that's a possibility. I totally think it's possible.

I've heard too many stories. I actually hope that that's true. Oh, same. Yeah, yeah. Makes it way cooler. Yeah. Makes it way cooler. And it once again puts the ball in our court.

Like it doesn't seem so nihilistic as, as a lot of this, you know, talk does when you, when you inevitably talk about these super intelligent beings that we have no concept of, you know, just it introduces nihilism. Like you can't not be nihilistic. You have to eventually let go because after all the other stages of grief, you're going to, you're going to end up just being like, all right, I guess I don't care, you know, because otherwise it's, you know, it's all consuming. Yeah.

But yeah, but those don't have to be mutually exclusive either. No. You know, we could all be living under the same dome of interdimensional beings that are controlling, you know, everything. They just might have a slightly better grasp of maybe how to interact with it or how to spot it. Yeah, my suspicion is that there might be some sort of bridge group and whether this is like a, from like deep within the military industrial complex or it is like a almost theosophical, you know, invisible college of esotericists who. are in touch with them or whatever, Tim Taylor style, right? Right. Yeah, them.

Maybe it's something like that, but I suspect that that could be true, and I also really want it to be true, that there are like these high esoteric adepts that are in touch with the higher forces and working on behalf of the good. It's my favorite pro-noic conspiracy. Yes. I think, same. So many stories have heard. You know, people have contacted me and left me messages who I've talked to a lot of,

of them, some of them write me of these interactions where they're just standing there. And one recently, a lady, she was in a store. And she sees two people, man and woman. They're gorgeous by all physical standards. And they're wearing what she describes as strange clothes that's made of material that she couldn't readily identify, but it was beautiful and flowy. And sort of they're just standing there. and she's staring at them and then she hears in her mind the female go

she can see us and then the man go don't be silly this is just like that Ingo Swan story This is exactly like the English Swan story It's exactly like the story that Richard Dolan told me

about the girl at church It's the story of the guy that told me when he was in the hardware store getting the copper rod with the two tall six foot nine women twins looking at him I told you this story I think so.

Yeah, tell it again, though. Where he's in the hardware store and he's picking up a eight-foot copper rod for some grounding issues that he's fixing at his house. And all of a sudden, he's in North Carolina. It's middle of summer. So it's like blaring 95 degrees humid heat. And these two six-foot-nine gorgeous women with long red hair who are dressed identically, who look identical. And they're both wearing sort of tucked in flannel shirts into jeans, mind you. summer heat wave.

And they're walking in lockstep with these giant strides towards him. Now, looking at this, first thought, and this is what he says, you're looking for the cameras. You're like, where are the camera? Like, we're the hidden cameras. This is obviously a prank show. Yeah. Like, that's the first thing that goes through your mind. And the second thing that goes through his mind is why isn't anyone else looking at these two?

Yeah. Because it's such a freaking sight to behold, these alien basketball. players, lunging up the aisle. And so he's kind of a little bit freaked out, kind of enamored by what he's seeing. He ends up eventually going into the line of the cashier. And now he's in this sort of checkout line with all these impulse by section items. And behind him, you know, stand these two tall women, one of them staring directly at him intensely as he looks over at her. And the other one just kind of blankly staring forward. They have nothing in their hands and they're waiting at the checkout.

She's like, okay. He grabs a flashlight at the impulse buy section, you know, and looks at it. So, okay, I'll buy this. The one behind him reaches awkwardly around him. Like, so weird and grabs the same item and just holds it. And he's like, okay. The lady to cash says, okay, you know, next. And he's like, finally someone else has to deal with this shit.

Yeah. Perfect. After you. They don't acknowledge him. They don't say thank you. They don't look at him. They just walk by. The transaction lasts three seconds. One, two, three. And then they start walking out the door. No bags, no receipt. No credit card was used. No money. Nothing. They just kind of walk out. So he rushes up to cashier and goes, that was weird. Yeah. And she goes, what? And he looks over, and they're about 30 feet away at this point. One of them stops, rears her head. head, and in his words, she was fucking pissed, and looks at him and starts lunging towards him, clears about half the 30 feet in three strides, and at which point he's frozen in terror.

Yeah. He doesn't know what's happening, and he hears in his head this screaming female voice goes, stop. Yeah. And she stops. What he perceived is that was the other one, and she turns around, walks up to the other one, and in lock step, they walk out of the store.

He grabs the items. He goes, shoplifted that day. I've never stolen anything in my life. And no one stopped me. He's like, I just grab the pole, grab the flashlight, ran out the door to see if I can spot them and they were gone. Now, since then, I've thought, did it have some to do with the copper rod? Yeah, right. Is the copper rod some type of, like, I can see you now, like a device? But, you know, all jokes aside, those stories are very, very prominent. They're one of the high strangeness stories that you hear, aside from, you know, meeting the grays, reptilians, shape-shifting, phase-shifting, whatever,

you hear these stories of them walking among us. Another similar story to that effect is I believe I also heard from Dolan for the first time. I don't, I think it might be in the alien agendas book, but it's a, it's, um, is it might be Fasio Cardano. and it was in the sort of Renaissance era It's like 500 years ago

And these three like guys who look like Greek sages walked into his I don't remember where it was if it was his house or where they were but these guys who were dressed in like beautiful flowing Greek robes

sat down in front of them and had a conversation with him and I can't remember that They said they were from the future or something Yeah they were I think they said that they were adepts of a certain school and they all had their own schools

and you know they were almost, they were like these Plato, Pythagoras, like, sage guys. But they're, but yeah, they were saying all sorts of things to him that were evocative of esoteric and even, they were asking him about it, about his belief in God. Oh, yeah, yeah. And they were all very interested in that. Yeah. And I think they're, yeah, they're talking about all sorts of. And then when they were asked about God, they're like, we can't talk about that or something.

There was like something there. This might be worth looking up because it's a really interesting story, but I don't know if I could find it quickly. Should we? Let's do it. Yeah. I think we could find it. I think, and I think it might not be Cardano, but his son or something. Yeah, I think, well, I think Cardano's the last name if I.

Yeah. Let's see you can find it first. Got it. Grolamo. Giorlamo. 15th century Italian physician and lawyer, Fasio Cardano, was a friend of Leonardo da Vinci and denoted a cultist. Rumors spread that he was in communication with a demon, a story Cardano.

spread himself. Oh, yeah. This is a separate story. This is a separate story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Because I think it's supposed to be like his daemon. I think it's supposed to be like he was in touch with his diamond. So what's a daemon for people listening? Oh, man. So this is one of my favorite esoteric rabbit holes that I don't want to derail this story. Anthony Peake is is a big fan of the diamond too. And his take on it is very related, but iterative off of the main idea. So if you go back, not just to the Greek world, but basically the entire Mediterranean and probably beyond. And also this existed, there is an Egyptian version of this idea as well. It's either sometimes called the Divine Double, like there's a book called The Divine Double or Our Divine Double, which is written about this topic.

But the basic idea is that every human soul has a counterpart sort of spirit called the personal, called the Daimon, basically. and it's not demon in the common, you know, understanding now. It's daimon meaning like a spiritual being, essentially. And this one of the most famous places this stems from is a story at the end of Plato's Republic called the myth of er. Er is this warrior who is about to be burned on the funeral pyre because he just appears to be a dead body. And then he wakes up, fully alive, has full memories of the afterlife and how you basically

reincarnate and you go through all these various steps. But at one step just before you incarnate, you go in front of the three fates and the, you know, the three fates like is women who are always portrayed as knitting. And they're essentially like knitting together to the tapestry of fate, right? And what they do is they don't let you pick whatever you want for your next life. They present you with a list of lots. You know, like imagine like a lot like of property or whatever. But they they present you these lots basically. Like you can choose from these for your next life based on. who you are, what you've done, your path so far. You choose that, and it locks you into this fate, basically. And then as you're reincarnating, you completely get your memory wiped as you're coming back down to Earth. You're proceeding through the celestial spheres. You go through these various bands. One of them is called leafy, leafy wipes your mind. So you don't remember whatever you chose. And this is by design, but you have the daimon with you who does know what you chose. So you can extrapolate all of these different things from this.

I mean, Journey of Souls kind of falls exactly in this same path. I know. Yeah. So one of my favorite books also to continue this rabbit hole is called Souls Code is written by another psychologist who's very young influence named James Hillman. James Hillman comes up his own archetypal psychology, but it's still very Jungian in a lot of ways with some important differences. But anyway, his most famous book is called SoulsCode, and it's all about how important this idea of the personal Daimon is from a personal kind of sense-making sort of POV. And he gives all these biographical examples of people who just struggled their whole life in school and being trying to play all these different social roles because they literally came into this life. Like, you're supposed to be a singer.

You're supposed to be a ballet dancer. You're supposed to be an accountant. And at every turn, when life tries to force them out of that box, it's like everything is going wrong. They're having all these mental problems. They're having, you know, their life is falling apart. And it's all because they're basically fighting their dime on. Like their diamond is like, no, this is what you are. And if you try to fight against what you are instead of discover what you are, you're going to have all kinds of problems.

So it's really interesting from like a personal sense making POV, particularly when you're traveling a weird life path, right? I think it's true for everyone, but for you, for me, people who are creative and feel like, I don't know why, but I just got to do this thing. I don't know why I want to start a podcast. I just want to start a podcast. And then you just every time you're like a muse. It's very much like the muse. Yeah, it's very much like the muse and that the muse inspires, but the daimon is sort of the guide. Yeah, like the taskmaster or the one that's trying to keep you on track, but it's very subtle. And in a lot of these, bringing it back to Cardano, if you look into a lot of these Western esoteric traditions, one of the main things they're trying to get you to do is get an open dialogue going with your diamond. And if you can actually get the diamond to like manifest in front of you, that is considered to be like a major, major moment and you are elevated very highly on your path after that point. Whoa. So, so yeah, that's one of those things I've been. What is the diamond? Is the Daimon, in any lore or stories, is the manifestation of the daimon like a concise image? Or is it just something you make up?

See, that's one of those things that I personally would love to know the answer, too, because I think I really struggle to believe it would appear to you like an anthropomorphic guy. Yet I've also told you that one story about my... Your trip. Yeah, my, my, my, my, my, wizard. Yeah, like my one experience where I'm like, I think that was really an entity. I think I really encountered an entity that was just a mental. Yeah, yeah. That could have been the dime on.

It had that kind of energy. Yeah, like you're, you're on the right path, buddy. Just keep doing your thing. Good job. I'm going to, you need anything else? Okay, bye. They always seem so playful. In my case, in this, in this particular.

scenario, yes. I had gone through a lot of things that were not playful to get to that point. It's like shitting and pissing and farting and puking. Yeah, for people that... Complete purging of all your bodily fluids. Yeah, whenever I hear people tell, oh, I had such a beautiful eye experience. I was just, Mother Ayahuasca was holding. It was nothing like that for me, dude. It was so brutal. It felt incredibly... Mother Ayahuasca had her fist down your throat.

Yeah. It felt incredibly demonic, man. for a lot. Really? Yes. Like not dimonic, but demonic. The whole, I would say 80% of the experience was just deep, dysphoric, dis-ease. What am I doing? I've like opened myself up spiritually to all of these terrible lower astral forces.

And I, like, it was a tormenting experience. You're surrounded by screaming people. Yes. And people, yeah, people who are working through trauma and almost feeling embarrassed because I'm just there as like, I'm a speaker, I don't know, I just want to find my path. And then you're hearing these stories of people who had the, I won't even like try to make a joke version of it because it's genuinely like some of the worst trauma you've ever heard about in your life. And they're trying to work on that and you're sitting there in the share being like,

yeah, I just, you know, I'm here seeking. I want to get answers. So maybe that was part of it. Maybe it was just, there's so much negativity being discharged in the room that there's an overwhelming aura of negativity that's slowly being dispelled or purified or something. But yeah, it took me three full nights of drinking to break through to that. What just felt like this unbelievably placid, beautiful astral kind of POV where there was this entity there that was just this perfect embodiment of the wise man. Like you instantly know. Like this is a super highly, highly elevated intelligence that I'm dealing with.

And it's not the kind of, you're going to be okay, buddy, like that your friend would give you. It's a knowing kind of advice or a knowing kind of bestowal of information that this thing was giving me. And when I say it with words, it sounds like the most cliche advice of all time. But it really felt like a deep, deep anamnesis moment or noesis or nosis kind of moment when. And you've carried that with you or has that faded? I think it inevitably fades. But I also... So there's like a lifetime on, it was like a shelf life for that stuff?

In a way, but I do still believe it. I do still... I would say that is one of the experiences I hold in the highest regard in my life. To a point where it's almost like, maybe I shouldn't even talk about it because there's no way I can really communicate what it was like being in that moment. And I've never had an experience with that since then. And you diluted by doing so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it could be. It could be. But yeah, whatever that was, I have pretty high conviction that that was another being. That was not me. That was something else. And I don't know what name to put on it. If it's a daemon, if it's an angel, like a guide. I don't know. I don't know. There's the, I mean, the word genius too. Yep. Is the attended one, right? Yep. So. Very similar idea to Daimon. So that's kind of the Greek or the words the Romans would use for the same concept is the, is the, is the word.

the genius or sometimes you'll see tutelary spirit. It's kind of confusing because when you're reading these texts, like if you read a, you know, a certain translation of, um, uh, platinous or something, there's a chapter called on the tutelary spirit, but the Greek is on the daemon, like on the allotted diamond. So yeah, it's a very interesting topic. And from the perspective of non-human intelligence, that would be the closest to non-human intelligence to you would be this kind of attendant spirit. And it survives in the idea of the guardian angel. But for most people, that's become a very kind of cartoonish

idea. And this is a thing that would not necessarily be, it's basically neutral. It's not super benevolent, nor is it malevolent at all. It just has a job. And that's another thing you'll find in a lot of these esoteric texts is that

this whole class of beings called daimons or daimones, they're not good or bad by in large. They're usually neutral and they have a job. Like they're preserving something in nature, or they're doing something, or they're messengers or their whatever. So again, huge overlaps with the phenomenon. And I think it seems to me like people like Valet are going much more in this kind of a direction with how they interpret things. And on that note, it's also interesting that we were talking about Rosicrucians before. He's become so personally, it seems like, aligned with that whole school of

thought, which again is an emanation of exactly what I'm talking about here, this Yeah, and hermeticism. Western esoteric, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's very, uh, it's, it's all very interesting for sure because it, you know, the very nature of it, though, is metaphorical. Like, everything that you've said can be applied to something, you know, and I think that's what the allure is there with comparing Greek mythology to you fall. Yeah.

In that it's, it's, it's, it's just this perfect way to explain things in, in a, representative sort of way. Um, how do you reconcile if these physical things are real? Like if the physical craft are real in a hangar somewhere or these eggs on the range at Northrop Grumman or whatever, or the beings themselves, be it north. of gray or mantis-like and their bodies that they found in the crafts. How do you reconcile all of that with this idea of Western esotericism or Greek mythology? How do you marry the two? Well, first of all, I don't know if I can, but I can try. And I think people like Keel did a

pretty good summation of the argument I would put forward, which is, so for people I don't know, John Keel, he eventually develops this theory called the ultra-terrestrial. theory, which is essentially that whatever these beings are, they're from an extended layer of reality that we don't know how to sense yet. It's somewhere deeper in the electromagnetic spectrum. It's somewhere not necessarily in a different dimension, but in that direction. It's minds that are existing on another plane of reality, basically, that can instantiate here physically, but they're subtle before they're gross things. So a UFO would be some kind of a subtle energetic thing, and then it would solidify into some kind of form. And to me, that makes

sense with things like the eggs, because the eggs do, I've heard multiple people surmise, including one of the psionic asset dudes from Skywatcher, say that he thinks those things are manifesting. Like, he thinks those things are almost like apporting from, you know, Because they seem to be dropping, not crashing. Right. They seem to be laid like an egg from the sky and dropping into the sand without any fire, any sort of burn from the atmosphere or anything, just kind of like being plopped in the sand. Yeah, yeah.

And the other thing, you know, I run into is just you're always trying to make sense of something of unknown provenance, right? So if someone says I had this kind of an entity encounter and they insist, it was physical, it was right there. I don't know if that's true. But when I hear so many stories like that in a collective, I've got to just be like, okay, I don't need that one guy's story to be true or that one guy's story to be true. I just have to assume that there's enough going on here that I better put it in my realm of possibilities as something that could be real. And I think obviously that could be real And it could be that one I mean you know you just have to kind of walk through all the possibilities They really are beings that came from somewhere else physical

Or there's some kind of hybrid of physical and non-physical And they've sort of taken on a temporary form To interact with us Or there's some kind of Again this comes from neoplatonism and esotericism Is a thought form Yeah like well yeah agrigor is a whole other realm of conversation that we can and maybe should get into.

But it's the idea, again, that it's what I was saying before with Jung, where there's sort of, it's like this midpoint between whatever it is and whatever you are. Like your psyche has to put a form on it and it has a real nature, but its nature isn't whatever its physicality is. So their physicality has something to do with your interpretation and whatever they are. It's like this weird alchemical. Yeah. Yeah, it's like this weird alchemical mixture.

And which explains why it's a weird alchemical mixture. they would look like things that you would recognize here on Earth, save maybe the grays. Yeah. But, you know, for the lyrens or the reptilians or the insectoids. Those frog guys for the picture you showed me yesterday. The frog guys or the bird, the avians or whatever. These are all animals that you would find on Earth.

So either, A, they're all plucking from the same gene pool and we're just sort of cosmic cousins here. or be, like you said, there's some type of instancy, the thought of them or the energy that they give off is what we would associate a bird like or a lizard like. And we kind of project them into reality and help them instantiate, you know, maybe they didn't ask to be. You know, they're like, what are you making me like this for? Like, yeah. Well, yeah, that's one, I mean, that's one thing, you know, apparently, you know, you read some of these grimwars and you can just compel these beings through essentially, have you ever looked at any of these, like the, like, lesser key of Solomon or these books where you are like literally summoning angels or demons? No, the only, I think the only thing that I've really looked into was, uh, Alistair Crowley's. Yeah. Yeah. It's from the same kind of chain of, you know, lineage of there's very important differences. I don't want to be like, they're all the same, but they're all predicated on kind of similar. ideas. Yeah, incantations. But oftentimes you're pretending to be God, basically. Sure. You're saying,

like, I have this divine authority and you know through this and through that and through that. And if you don't do this, I'm going to, like, it's a very aggressive kind of commanding a lot of the time. And there's some people who don't like this and they've, you know, softened it and whatever. But that's kind of, that's what you find in Lesser Key of Solomon is like you're commanding these demons to like manifest in front of you. And if you don't, you're going to like, you know, I have the authority of God to do this to you. And then you command these things to do whatever. Of course, you got to be very careful because they want to trick you and they want to, you know, whatever. So, so yeah, maybe, maybe they are doing it against their will sometimes. Maybe there could be something to that. I haven't,

I've dabbled a bit in things, but I haven't, I don't, I don't know, man. There's something about that. There's some lines I don't want to cross. No, of course. There's some things I almost don't want to know. But it is, it is fun to think about, too, that like, these things that we are essentially summoning in the sky. You know, some people don't like using the word summoning, but when you're a group of people inviting, yeah,

orbs, it looks a lot like summoning. Yes. Especially when the energy levels are pretty much equal across the playing field here. We're all trying to make this thing appear. That's kind of like a summoning ritual, you know, like,

the very same thing or even just, you know, people doing it in their homes or whatever it is, it does seem like there might be part of that where whatever it is, they're summoning is just something that wasn't there before. Yeah. And that they're just bringing into existence through, you know, kind of like, almost like, you know, you think of Fatima, you know, and 60,000 people, what kind of a thought form could 60,000 people create if they all believed in the same thing, you know, and that might be what they witnessed. Yeah, there's always like multiple, because this is where we could talk about egregors, right? We could say, okay, you're going out there and there's literally this shared intention that becomes a field of like psychical exhaust and

intention that is just solidifying into this thing. And this is what's called an egregor in the Western esoteric tradition. In the Tibetan tradition, they have a very similar idea called a Tulpa, where apparently through super intense focus, you can make something appear. And there's this legend I won't try to tell about a tulpa that is solidified, and then they can't get rid of it. Sort of like a monkey's paw. I don't remember the whole story, but it's interesting. So it's very not metaphorical. It's very literal.

Like there's a lot of esoteric traditions that have this notion of egregors. And even supposedly, if you have a community of people, like I said this to you, I think on another podcast we did, theoretically there'd be an area 52, agrigore. There would be a third eyedrofts, aggregor. That is sort of the shared collective consciousness of everybody who is contributing psychically to this thing and participating psychically in this thing. And it's a very interesting idea at the very least. Again, Anthony Peek, that's his go-to explanation for UFOs. He thinks a lot of it is egregors and it's just people's minds basically forcing something to appear somehow, even if it's unconscious and they don't know that they're doing it.

It's funny because it's far easier for people to get to, oh, we can manifest things into existence through, you know, just thinking about it and thinking positively of the result or whatever and sort of this, what was it called, the power of attraction, law of attraction or whatever. Like, you know, you think of a blue feather and you'll see a blue feather type deal. But then to be like, oh, but you can make UFOs appear. They're like, no. Like, well, hold on. You're essentially talking about the same thing. You're morphing reality to fit, you know, whatever it is you desire or you will into existence. Why does that have to stop with things that are non-physical, you know?

Yeah. And the ancient understanding was, is if you made yourself a pure enough vessel for divinity to come through, that's actually what makes the magical stuff happen. It's not your own mind. It's that you have created a sufficient receptacle to download high-term. your consciousness into, and then you can do things that look miraculous. But it's not because of your own power. It's because you made yourself a sort of conduit to the higher realm, basically. Possession. Yeah, like, possession in a good way, I guess, you know? Now it just sounds like you're appealing to Satanists. Hey, man, I've probably been called worse things than that.

Probably will be called worse things than that. No, possession is good. Summending is fun. Yeah. Would you, I know we've, we've talked about skywatching a bunch of times. Would you, would you ever do a sky watch with an almost kind of like ritualistic component to it where you're almost mixing esoteric ideas and this idea of, uh, you know, I have no, I have no problem doing it. I think what would inhibit it is my reluctance to want to let go and believe that it's real. And I think that might be an inhibitor. What if you were with someone that you had a lot of respect for that you like, you know, you're like, I'm not saying he would do it, but what if like Jacques Valais is like,

I really believe in this method and we're like, with. Jockville. Yeah, I would still, like, I mean, the part of me, so we had this discussion before, but like the, I think that the, one of the key ingredients for this stuff is, is truly, and I was struggling to find a word for this, but it's knowing without knowing. Yeah. And it's not belief. Like, okay, I'll give you a silly example of this.

Um, I believe Australia to be a real place. Yeah. Saying that out loud sounds absolutely insane to anyone who's been to Australia. It sounds insane to people who haven't been in Australia. But I can't, in good conscience, say I know Australia to be real because I have no firsthand experience with Australia whatsoever other than meeting Australians or seeing it on a map or watching a video or seeing a photo. I have lots of really compelling evidence. In fact, overwhelming, compelling evidence. You put money on it.

Yes, that Australia is real. But I can't in good conscience say I know it to be real because I don't. I don't have that luxury of knowing. I would love to know that Australia is real and go there. Now, I'm not saying Australia isn't real, because that's where people get confused. Of course it's real. Yes, I understand that.

You didn't say believe. I saw you pull it back. Yeah. But I, and I can say, I believe it is, which is an opinion, and it's faith-based. But so there's a word missing between knowing and believing.

Yeah. And I don't know what that word is. And so I think one of the key suspect the suspect implies, again, failure, it implies it not being real. So there is a word, so I just say knowing without knowing. Like I know without knowing that Australia is real. Have you ever read Cosmic Trigger or any Robert Anton Wilson stuff? Dude, I think you would love Cosmic Trigger.

But anyway, he's got one of my favorite quotes on this point, which is like, I have no beliefs but many suspicions. Sure. Something like that. Yeah, exactly. I hold in high conviction. that Australia is real. I have a very high conviction level that Australia is real, but it's never 100%. It can't be until I'm there. I'm not even 100% on my existence.

So, right. I mean, if you want to go that far, nothing's real. But what I'm saying is that the, it's back to your question of what, you know, would I attend one of these, you know, summonings or whatever it is, one of these get-togethers? I fear that this, knowing with that. knowing has to be a key ingredient, which is why it is so strong and prevalent among faith-based practices, because that faith is very strong in a lot of people. And it might be part of the ritual necessary to make an agroar appear or to make or to bring something transdimensionally in. And I think that having, not having the complete ability to,

suspend that might inhibit the protocol? I don't know. I feel like I've had, I don't want to paint the picture like I am some hugely accomplished high weirdness psychonaut master guy. I'm not at all. But I have had a handful of experiences that I also hold in very high conviction. We're contact with something. You know, I've had an OBE, you know, I've had this entity encounter I pointed to. I've had some other mind-blowing experiences. I would not say I had full-blown belief. I would not say I had full-blown that any of those things would happen. I think going through the motions and pretending a lot of the time.

Yes. But having a sort of back of your mind, I might be crazy, but I'm just going to stick with this process and just keep doing it. I think that that can be enough. I think that that can honestly be enough. You might be right.

I also feel that like any time that I had an out-of-body experience, I, even when I wasn't seeking it, I was in a state that was very suggestible. Yeah. And so when you're in this sort of hypnagogic or hypomopic state, you are heavily suggestible. And so even the impregnation of the idea into your mind that an out of body is possible

on a subconscious level might be enough for that to work. So maybe the answer to the question is, yes, okay. And maybe through meditation we can get there. maybe we can get to that point of, you know, being open to it happening. But I'd be, I'd be down for sure. I'm down to try anything. I don't believe. I don't believe. I'll rephrase that. I don't think that the whole hitchhiker thing has any power unless you give it power. I really think that that, again, is another self. Fulfilling prophecy. It's something you convince yourself of and therefore make it so. Like people tell me, no, but there was an ancient Indian burial ground at Skinwalker. You dig deep enough anywhere, you'll find a dead body. That's how long people have been around, right?

There's bodies everywhere. There's cemeteries everywhere. I don't know. I suspect that there's definitely something to what you're saying. Like, obviously that there are self-fulfilling prophecies and that you can, like, spin your mind up. I think that's all it is. Like, I wouldn't go that far. Well, because I don't, I think that that creates the reality too.

Yeah. So like, you created those spirits now because you all believe so strongly that they exist. In fact, you know without knowing that they exist and you have this super high conviction because of all the stories attached to it. And now you're highly suggestible and you create this. And now guess what? People are starting to see shit. Yeah. And so I think if you give it power, it has power.

Yeah. And I think if you don't give it power, it doesn't. Well, we know for sure suggestability is obviously a thing. Like if you just create a psychic atmosphere where people expect something, their minds will put it there even if it's not there. Right. Like, oh, I just heard something. Did you hear that? Yeah.

Dude. Like, yeah. If you take, if you go to some place that's supposed to be haunted and you all work yourselves up into a tizzy, I do think that that. But I think you can do that and make something physical appear too. Yeah. And you would even go to the further level of having a saying there's like almost like a sigh effect, right? that you're creating unknowingly or something. Like a thought form or something.

Yes. But I don't think it has to do with the geography of the place. I don't think it has to do with the history of the place. I think it has to do completely with the energy that you're putting into the place based on the lore that was given to you. This is the point that you and I got stuck on a little bit in the last one that we did together on mine, which is that... You believe in the ritual. Yeah. Well, not only do I believe in the ritual, I think that there is a whole system of forces that we have been led to believe

aren't real, our superstitious, our nonsense, that yeah, maybe our systems and approximations of those things aren't perfect. But I got to believe the ancients who did these unbelievable things, man, things that we still don't know how they did or even what they were doing. Like literally, to this day, there's people putting out, right now someone's hitting publish on a podcast about the pyramids and thinking it's a power plan or thinking it's a resurrection machine or thinking it's, you know, X, Y, or Z. We still don't know what they were doing, but we know they're obsessed with the night sky. They know we know they were obsessed with astrology.

We know they were obsessed with the unseen realm of the dead, of the gods, of the daimones, of the angels, all this stuff. And we're like, yeah, science proved that's not real. And I think, inevitably, you've got to either end up in this place of when you start going down these rabbit holes. I think you're going to find yourself in a place where you had a minimum half to, to kind of do what you're doing and say, sigh is real in some kind of a way, the effects of the mind are real, or there's an ancient science that we are now illiterate to,

and it's some kind of sacred science that has both a spiritual component and a practical technical component, and that practical technical component is knowing, when are these energies active? When can we harness this? When does a, and this is Keel would talk about this too,

that you can see in the U of, UFO manifestation evidence that there are these weird cycles. There are window areas where these things happen over and over and over again. And things appear more often at certain parts of the planetary cycle or certain days of the week or certain whatever. And these are all like related ideas, in my opinion. It just sounds like astrology to me. It is. It is.

And to me that, you know, all of that just sounds like nonsense. And not that it sounds like nonsense. It has meaning if you ascribe meaning to it. And I think that's the key ingredient. I think that's it. I mean, all of this can be explained with that. If you say, no, it has to happen on the second Tuesday of every month. Well, that's only because you said it has to happen on a second Tuesday of every month.

Now you believe that. Now you've given that energy to that thing. And so that energy is crucial for it to work. It can't work without it. And so we have to come up with rituals in order to cement this process. otherwise it won't just work randomly. You have to give it a ritual for it to work. But that ritual doesn't have to be, I don't think, specific.

I think you can make one up. And if it's around for long enough and enough credible people are talking about it, giving it life and energy, then it becomes the ritual. Every ritual had to start somewhere. And so what came first, the chicken or the egg? Did he try this ritual every day of the week until it was a full moon and then it worked? Or did he say it'll work on the full moon? Yep.

Yep. Yeah. I mean, and then the argument would be that it started when someone was in touch with something higher and the something higher was like, you've got to do this. This is how you do it. And then they continued. They held that as a very close initiatory secret. And that's how suggestion works.

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is we'll always be in this self-nullifying logical loop in any kind of conversation. this because it's always going to happen through the prism of the individual mind. Of course. You can never divorce the individual mind from what it is. So you could ascribe this kind of like solipsistic because it's happening through my mind. My mind is causing it. But then it's always a debate as to it's, it's like saying. I want to say the mind is causing it. I'm saying that your mind, your mind is interacting with this field in a, in probably a very fundamental way that can eventually be explained by like physics. I think that that is, I think everything that we're talking about will

eventually be explained by quantum physics or some type of trippy physics we haven't discovered yet. And, you know, then you can't simply lump it all into esoteric or paranormal anymore. You have to acknowledge that it is science. And I think that the fundamental part of that science is your brain's capacity to interact with this field. And I think that there are certain ways that we can do that now that we'll probably be better at in the future and that they were pretty good at in the past. But I do think that that's what's happening. We have an interaction with our consciousness. And I think if you set certain regulations on the practices behind that interaction, you can gather results from it. Now, I think once you gather results from it, you automatically think it's due to

the ritual. But I think my thinking is that it's the power you gave to the ritual that, is the secret component. And so if you have the dime on or somebody else coming into your head and saying, you need to do this on a full moon, you know, that might just be their way of being like, they need suggestion in order for this to work. And so we're going to give them something. We're going to throw them a bone that'll make sense to them. And then we believe it's so. And then, you know, these things happen. Um, there's, anyways, there's no way of disproving this because it's, you know, like you said, it's how the mind works. But I do think there is some merit to that, especially. when it comes to my own personal experience with magic with the sea in creating those specific ingredients and then having these miracles happen during performance. They're very similar. And it has nothing to do with what I was wearing. And it has nothing to do at the time of day or which direction I was facing or what I ate for lunch. It had everything to do with the energy that was being created with the individuals who were involved, the flow state, the sort of faith prestige exchange, like all of this. And so I do, because otherwise, you have all of these

cultures and all of these religions practicing different things. They're not the same. To some of them, to some degree, sure, but baptism, right? Like there's all these rituals that all these different cultures have, they're very different. Like some of them do body mutilation. Some of them paint themselves, tattoo themselves, shave their head. Like, there's all these different rituals. And there's thousands and hundreds of thousands of different practices across all these cultures that all claim that what they're doing produces the same effect. Sometimes, yeah. Roughly speaking, they are getting in touch with something or they are getting information, but the way they're going about it is different. And so that leads me to believe that it

doesn't have anything to do with the specific technical steps that they're doing, but more so the intention behind those technical things. Yeah. No, I think, I mean, I definitely think that that comes into play, but I don't think I can be wrestled into submission on the idea that I'm pretty convinced that we live in a complicated array of cosmic forces of some kind. And I think I totally agree with what you're saying where I suspect that there's probably this larger field of consciousness. But I think that that field of consciousness has like archetypal qualities or segments to it. And I think it would make, it just makes logical sense to me that those things would ebb and flow. Because we see things change cyclically on the physical level, right?

And I think what we see happening on the physical level is probably emblematic of other higher processes that we're ignorant to. but they're also indicative of certain energies and certain things being, you know, like winter is just like archetypally very different than summer. And you could say, ah, it's just because of the angle of the planet. And like, technically all of those things are true. But I don't think that that robs the meaning of it because you know it's like saying you, you're only having this experience of this conversation because this neurons doing that. And you get into this like reductive physicalist sort of chain of dominance. to try to explain reality. And I don't think you and I,

either one of us, like that way of trying to explain reality, but you also can't say that that's not true because it is true. My brain is doing stuff. Like, you know, there are all of these physical components. But I just think it's all part of this bigger,

more complex, um, again, constellation of things. But, but I'm not, what I'm saying isn't reductive at all. I'm just saying,

I don't need a magic wand. You do. That's the whole difference here. That's the only difference here. I think it just depends on what we're like what we're trying to do because I think like, you know, if you look at something like, you know, ancient mystery temples or something like that where you've got to follow all these protocols and you've got to, you know, like the temple of elusis, like you have to follow these protocols. You have to do it. It only happens this one time of year. And the idea was that's when the goddess will show up. And it's not metaphorical and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's one of those things where it's like you read through antiquity and you're like, wow, I don't know what was going on here. But. everybody was writing about this and they all held it in the highest possible regard, or whether it's like Plato or Herodotus or, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I don't know.

I just, I'm, but again, I hear that and I go, well, yeah, that's the only way she could have arrived is if we all believed it so. Maybe. And so to create that belief, you have to create the ritual or else people will just be scatterbrained and believe whatever. Yeah. And then we don't have a singular collapsing wave function here. We have a random wave function because too many minds are. involved. So instead, let's all get behind one idea of on a Tuesday, you know, we got to, and that's when she appears. Oh my God, it's when she appears. Now we're all on the same thought

train. And now this egregore, now this event can happen, like because we've put collective energy behind it rather than some, you know, sort of sporadic chaos thing. So I think the ritual is important. But I don't think the specific ritual matters. I think as long as we're all doing a ritual. As long as we're all tapped in to that. Because otherwise, it would make no sense why we have thousands of rituals. You're off my invite list, Chris, for the esoteric UFO summoning. Well, no, because what I'm saying is still esoteric. Yeah. And I think it's still matters. And I think it's just, I'm just trying to find the commonality and the fundamental trigger that allows this to happen. And I can only do that from the things that I've, you know, dealt with, which in my case is,

dealing with probabilities on a daily basis through magic performance. Yeah. And when you're dealing with probabilities, being able to skew them using your mind is a very interesting prospect. And then when you see the results of that, you have to be convinced that, okay, there is some formulaic thing happening here, but that formula isn't, you know, dependent on me having a deck of cards. Yeah.

It has more to do with the energy I put behind saying it has to do with the deck of cards. And so that's the only thing We're like it's we're talking about the same thing But like I said, I think I'm just removing the magic wand And saying it's still possible I think we are I think we're talking about the same thing I don't know because some all this stuff is so hypothetical

And it's so outside of my everyday experience And I don't even like I think the only reason I truly believe what I'm saying and what I'm arguing for But I think it's just because I'm very fond of a lot of these traditions And these thinkers and I feel like pretty confident that they knew a lot of shit that I don't know and had a lot of experiences that I haven't had. So I'm just like, I don't want to dismiss what they're telling me because I think that they come from a whole lineage of carefully preserved stuff that goes probably back into like deep into antiquity. And yeah, I just have, I guess a lot of respect for those sorts of.

That's where I, yeah, I guess that's where I differ because I didn't study that, you know, and I just see the result of it. Yeah. But then you have like the Gnostic sort of like, you ever see these videos where guys like, oh, you got to remember these names? Oh, yeah. That's a whole interesting. That's a whole interesting train of thought on this whole conversation that we were having earlier.

Yeah, when you die, you got to like give the names. And once they're named, they let you through to the next thing. And then that's how you sort of ascend. And again, I find myself thinking that's complete rubbish. Because if that was the case, what happens to the person who's mute? what happens to the person who can't pronounce anything correctly. You know, it makes it a little silly for me. Yeah.

But the energy behind it, you know, might be, might be very, very important. Yeah, I think my guess is that there's probably like a dogmified version of something that might actually be true. Right. And because, so if you go back into the like corpus hermeticum stuff where Hermes, he's like this, you know, sage type figure, he's wandering. in the desert, again, a serpent kind of experience. He has a vision of like this cosmic logo dragon. This cosmic logo dragon gives him the download of here's what humans are. Here's what the world is. Here's how everything was created. Here's the whole lineage of how humans got to where they are. Here's how you reascend back to the one. And basically what you're talking about is a version of

figuring out how to traverse those planes to get back to freedom outside of the confines of the matrix basically. Getting out of the Samsar's wheel or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And the way that you do that, I think there are, there are, this is where we get into the LeVenda cosmic ascent stuff too, because there's versions of this where there's guardians of different planes basically. And you either have to do something or give a kind of password or you have to be initiated into something to get through each threshold guardian. And I think again,

this is appealing to something I think is true on some level, because we do this all of our myths, right? There's a guardian at the gate and you have to either befriend or trick or defeat the guardian to initiate and go on. So I think it's one of those things where it's deeply true, but the idea that I literally have to go, you know, like when I get to some gate is probably, probably incorrect. Yeah, it just, it feels like so ridiculous. But I also think it could be true on some more foundational archetypal level. Like you, you probably have to prove you've learned a lesson or something. Yeah. And in the hermetic, assent ritual, it's a relinquishment. So, you know, like each planet is emblematic of a certain

quality or vice, right? So the vice version of Mercury would be scheming and cleverness and all of these things where you're trying to use your intellect to trick someone. And what you do is you try to remove that from yourself and then ascend beyond it. And you do that at each planetary sphere so that you can basically defrock yourself of all these human kinds of vices, and then you actually are able to be reabsorbed back into the oneness of God or whatever. And I think it's probably some mutation of that, is you're trying to, again, get rid of these, what they call, what's that word? There's accretions.

You take on these accretions by becoming human. And this goes back to that platonic myth of er, where you're passing through, these thresholds and as you get weighed down by each one. The archons. Yeah, it is. And that's what it is in the, um, Scientology. In the, uh, oh, that's a different thing. But the archons are the Gnostic thing.

Oh, yeah, the Gnostic thing. Yeah. What are the, uh, the Scientology ones? Uh, it's something, it ends with an S. Not the aeons. No, that's, that's also Gnostic. It's, uh, it's not Euclideans, but it's like something it ends, right? It's bugging me now. I think it is. Yeah, I don't know. Um, same.

Same idea. Same idea. Yeah. And again, I think that's an idea that there's something to. I actually do kind of resonate with the idea that we might have wound up here as humans by accident in a sort of like almost, in a, again, a more contemporary way, in a kind of Robert Monroe kind of way where we sort of got due. We made the decision in some way, but kind of didn't realize what we were doing by committing to life on Earth. A version of it kind of like that. one of the neoplatonist, Plotinus, talks about it as what he calls soul fall. So you were talking,

I want to bring this up actually when you were talking about this scenario of controlling the guy in the simulation and giving him inspiration by being like, no, here's a perfect statue, now make a better statue. It's a similar idea because what he's saying is you have this undescended higher self that's actually in the higher realm already. And that would probably presumably be why sigh things and other things are possible, because you actually are already in that realm. The daemon. You've lost your connection to it. Well, the daemon would also be, the daemon is like your connection to the connection.

I see, I see, I see. It's like the local connection to the higher connection. So part of your consciousness is instantiated here, but part of it is out there still. Exactly. That's exactly it. And Plotinus would do these cosmic ascent meditations, basically, where he would figure out how to remerge with the higher self. and then he'd come back to his body and he writes about this in the Ennids and he basically says,

I'm confused because I've figured out the path back there and I know that that's who I truly am, but for now, like, part of me is stuck here, basically. And I think it could be something like that where we've sort of meandered into this realm or part where we've become enamored by something. And that somethingness spiraled us back down into a physical form that needs to release that again. and then we can go back to the higher self or whatever. Can't wait to find out. I can, but I can't.

I'm having fun with this podcast right now. Yeah, no, we're definitely going to find out eventually, and that's the other thing, too, is like I talk about that with, you know, friends. And it's something, it sounds a little worrisome when you say it out loud, but I'm like, sometimes I can't wait to die. Like, not, I can wait. I like my life. I'm not looking to go anywhere.

But I'm really excited about about that final thing. And I, you know, a lot of people fear death. And I fear pain. Yeah. You know, I fear pain of death. Like, whatever is going to cause my death is going to be, you know, suffering or something. That I fear. But the death part I'm really excited about.

Like, it's the, it's the pinnacle of, of, you know, all the curiosity that we have. It's, it's the end point. It's why we're talking. you know, is, is the, to answer that question. This is all we're talking about is, when you're talking about UFOs, what are you talking about? You're talking about life beyond. You're talking about other things.

Do they have the answer? You know, and we're just looking for that. And the funny thing is, it's such an irony that we all get the answer. Hopefully. But that we, well, in one way or another. Yeah. And the irony is that we just can't let each other know about it. And if we do, we're not going to believe it.

Like there's this crazy like loop of irony here that we're, you know, we discussed this. Somebody with the billions of people that have spoken, you have to think that one person has it. Or at least the closest thing to it. One person has said it. Yeah. And then the problem is, is I always feel like a lot of these people have become corrupted by their persona or whatever they're trying to push or whatever they're trying to sell. It's really hard in a capitalistic situation. To not make a book.

to have a clean intention on any of this stuff. But do you think going out of body helped you with that conviction that you're sort of excited about, whatever comes next? Or have you always had that? I don't know that it, I think it did in the immediate when it happened, and I think maybe some time after. I think that wears off a little bit. It's like kind of like going to the Monroe Institute, or it's kind of like meditating itself. If you skip a few days, you start feeling. the stress and the weight of life come back to you.

And you say, why am I like this? And as soon as you meditate, you're kind of washed away from that. And you go, oh, that's... And so I think that, yeah, maybe immediately I did have a sort of clearer picture. But I don't know that what I experienced was that. You know, I don't know that what I experienced was anything like the afterlife or if there is one. I see, yeah. And I don't know what I experienced was an out-of-body experience, although objectively different from a lucid dream.

Yes. This I will, I'll fight anybody on. I'll die on that. I will too. Yeah. I've had plenty of lucid dreams. I had one last night. And I had vivid dreams before that.

Like, I dream regularly, objectively different. Every single time, instantly recognizable as not a dream, not that type of dream. So at the very at the very least it is a new type of dream. Yeah. At the very least. At the very most, it is my soul leaving my body. Yeah. And that obviously is a game changer, but I'm not convinced of it, but I would love to be.

Yeah. I would love to have a locale two type experience that Monroe talks about and journeys out of the body. Yeah, because so for people that haven't read journeys out of the body, he talks about there's a realm that he calls locale too, which I think in more readily accessible speak would be like the astral realm. And what this realm is like is a realm where you have a non-physical form that is still somewhat body-like. And it has sort of like energetic sensations. That's what I was in. But it's not.

I think I was maybe, but I wasn't, I wasn't perceiving the kinds of things he says that he's able to perceive in that. you're in this realm of thought. And then wherever your thought goes, you go. And if you have these, again, like these accretions, these things weighing you down where you're like, oh, I really got a poop or I'm horny or I'm hungry. Like those impulses will drag you back into your body basically. But if you or if you have no physical body, they'll get you stuck in these like lower astral realms of just these spirits that are just like in food obsessed or hump obsessed mode. where they're just like stuck in these recursive desire patterns or whatever. So you need to be able to navigate your way out of that with enough clarity of mind

to be able to navigate this soul vehicle. And that's what the ancients called it as a soul vehicle. And that's the translation you'll see in a lot of the Greco-Roman stuff is you have this pneumatic vehicle. It's like the word panuma, numa, which is like your vital essence. There's a pneumatic vehicle for the soul. and I think that's what's coming out when you're having an OBE is essentially like the vehicle of your psyche

because psyche in Greek is soul is coming free of the physical body. And it's so jarring and so strange and as anybody who's heard me tell this story before knows I didn't get control of the thing but I definitely had an experience of separating from my body and had the full blown

Robert Monroe, this is insane, this is terrifying. I don't know how to control this, oh my God. And then basically just asking for help until I remerged with my body and then being in disbelief for the next 24 hours. I know. Real, man. That's not a metaphor. That's not a dream.

That's not a, that's real. But that's as far as I got. But this idea of navigating, you know, locale to what he calls it, where there's all, I mean, so much stuff he describes the strangeness. Remember the, the story of the naked little boys on his back or whatever? Whoa. No. Do you remember that?

That's not where I was going. Do you remember that? I actually don't. wild. It's in like one of the later chapters and journeys out of the body where he's like these little boys just appeared and like he knew they weren't human but they were naked and they were like riding his back and I'm like I don't know if I should skip this chapter. Yeah. Remember the one there's like a thing about the leeches that he was fighting off leeches at one point too? I only vaguely remember that. Oh my God like yeah he was like they were like

alien leeches like trying to like leach onto him and he was like fighting them all off like again you You think of this and this is like, oh, this is, it's got to be a dream. But he's saying, you know, it's the same type of feeling that you would have in an OBE, and I have to take that at face value because I've experienced that. He talks, too, about I have this memory of him getting out into the astral or space-like environment. Yeah. And things looking the same but different. Well, that's the environment that I was in every time I got out of body.

It was like an 80% match. And the best thing I could sort of reference is the upside down. Yeah. It kind of feels like that where it's like it's here, but it's not. It's like, yeah, the windows. It's almost like a projection of what your memory would piece together. That makes sense. That actually makes sense why it would be like that.

Because if you are interacting with a space, you probably, because we know that our, from a mainstream neurological perspective, even, there's like a model of reality that our brain is using. Like Andrew Gallimore, who's become the big, you know, DMT neuroscientist guy, he understands this well, like the theory behind how the brain and like the whatever. I was going to start getting into poor neuroscience, but I'll just skip that part and say, your brain is constructing reality. It learns how to construct reality and forecast reality and blah, blah, blah. So it makes sense that you would have that imprinted in your mind. And then you get, you're moving around and you're like, oh, yeah, this is where the windows are and this is where that's. stuff is. So maybe you're dealing with the ghost of the memory of the place or something. That's what it felt like to me because it didn't really make sense. And any symbology

derived from that is probably, you know, subconscious projections of your own psyche. One thing, this is something I didn't share readily during, you know, the documentary that I sort of pieced together about my OBE experiences, but to go out of body. through lucid dreaming that happens to me. Okay. So last night I had a lucid dream. And in the lucid dream, I realized it was a dream. And I was like, oh, I deeply desire to leave my body. And it's something I, and I began to. And I woke up. I was coming out of sleep anyways. I had to pee. So it like kind of like, but I felt that initial like, oh, you know, coming out. And so for me, that is triggered by a sex dream every single time.

Interesting. Yeah. So if I have a lucid dream, the dream turns lucid because it turns into like an erotic dream. Oh, yeah, I have had that happen, yeah. And so that's been my trigger to get out of body. And that's helped me get out of body like four times is, you know, being being there and all of a sudden something's popping off. Yeah, yeah. You know, secretaries over here, whatever it is, you know. And I go, oh, nice, right?

And the dream. And that's when I have the realization and go, wait, this is, I want to leave my body. and then I'm just like, I'm gone, right? Yeah. And so recently in the last week, I've had like six of these dreams. Whoa. And but I'm around, bro. Sorry.

They never, they never end. They never come to like the, you know, the end of it. There is, it just begins that way. And then I kind of wake up and I get, and I'm thinking is this my subconscious trying to get me out of my body. This is what I've been thinking of the last week. It's just, and then you mentioned like these lower thought forms that are lingering. being around and this, and that's what it feels like. They're all little horny creatures in my

subconscious that want to interact with me, but maybe they're all just saying, hey, it's time to get out of body again. It could be. And maybe those are like distractions to keep you held down or something. And you have to have the higher impulse to liberate. To liberate, exactly. I did not think we were going to go down this road. Well, here we are. That's what I'm here for. The novel paths, the novel circuitous conversational paths. I love doing it. Can I, do you want to get into some questions? Yeah, whatever you want to do.

We got some, we got some audience questions here that I'll pull up. I'll go turn the camera on here. Speaking of Bob Monroe, weirdly, this comes full circle to a different part of our conversation because I remember the chapter that landed on my psyche with the most force was chapter 20 of that book. And I know it fairly well because I ended up doing a read-through. of it. But it's sort of a departure of the narrative, the overarching narrative of the book. And he goes into more of, I'm going to tell you a story mode. And it starts with him, I think it

starts with him interacting with what he perceives to be a beam of light at night. But eventually it culminates in this scenario where he has a vision of what he immediately knows, this is what people think is God, and it's not really what people think it is. And it's this, basically these much, much higher beings that sound very much like, you know, it sounds very levendipilled ancient aliens, higher beings type vibe where they're massively, um, more powerful, spiritually, sigh-wise, whatever, technologically. And then he has that vision of the pumping station. Do you remember this? Like the luch? Yeah, he doesn't use the word luch, but that's definitely like the proto-lush story before he's using the word, where he comes to realize that he thinks this planet is essentially being mined for some kind of resource by these beings that we conceive of as God.

And they're somehow coming and extracting this. And he was seeing them or trying to interact with them to some degree. But I remember the chapter ends in the most like, doomer. where he was like, and then I knew the God of my childhood was dead forever or something like that. And he was like in tears. And that's how the chapter ends. It's him kind of having this vision of this being disillusioned. Yeah, this like dystopian, you know, gnostic lushe farm sort of thing. And we should say that he like, he is not negative overall.

And he eventually kind of in his, I don't know, I don't think I've even read the third book. But I know enough of the broad strokes to know that he goes in a much more. positive direction toward the end with all of his metaphysics. But that is a crazy story. And it is one that left a huge impression on me. And I think in some way could be true. Yeah, maybe, perhaps, or maybe just the, even the lush itself isn't what he thinks it is. You know, maybe he was just given that impression, but, you know, maybe that is information. Maybe it's consciousness. Maybe it's experience. Maybe it's, you know, I don't know. It, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it is interesting, you know, and speak to guys like David Ike.

Right. Who, you know, is a big proponent of that theory as well. You know, I always just find, so it feels like such a lower density thing to do. It feels like something we would do, like our evil part would do. And I just can't conceive of anything being more intelligent and more malevolent at the same time. I have a hard time with that as well. Yeah, I think, I think the more you go there, the, the more empathetic you become, I would assume.

Yeah. I don't even want to give counter arguments because I definitely gravitate toward, like, I pick up what you're putting down. Yeah, even if you're like an intergalactic species or a space fearing, a space faring species, you probably couldn't become that if you didn't all see eye to eye on whatever planet it is you're emanating from. Yeah. Like, you know, of course, blades, you know, steel, sharpened steel and to a certain point, like wars create technology.

But we're under the impression that's the only way to get technological advancements. I feel like cooperation would propel us into space much quicker, you know, if we worked with all the countries in the world and put all the greatest minds together and didn't have compartmentalized weird factions. And so, yeah, I think that any civilization that is intelligent and visiting, if that's a thing, that they're probably peaceful. I'm on the same page. All right, we got some questions here. If you're a member, one of the many perks that you get is potentially having the opportunity to ask our guest a question. So I prompt you guys out in the Discord and you guys brought the heat. So here we go.

Or is it something calling people back to it? Yeah, I'm a believer that there are kinds of wisdom that it's almost impossible for them to die out because there are core truths about reality. Core truths that you and I might disagree on on some levels. But I think that people eventually come to the realization that there is clearly something missing. Like something that we may have, and you could argue this is some kind of Jungian, you know, neurosis in the collective. unconscious the idea that we're missing something we used to have, but maybe that thing never existed. But I don't think so. I do think we used to be more in touch with higher realities, and I do think that there are methods that we used to know, that not to get conspiratorial

right off the bat, but I do think that it's quite possible that those methods may have been robbed from us purposefully by the people in power, because there was an absolute purposeful destruction of things like mystery temples and stuff like that. on the part of the emperor of Rome. I mean, even in Iraq a few years ago, you saw it's where the soldiers were destroying historic statues and temples and whatnot. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, if there's an idea that, you know,

one way you could look at it is they purposely tried to hide that information and cloister it for themselves so that only they could use it. And now it's been, you know, gobbled up by monsters, like the whole Epstein sphere and whatever, I think that's possible. But I also think it's possible that just through sheer religious dogma and indoctrination, you think this flies in the face of the true God and you want to destroy this, but you might be completely misguided and brainwashed by somebody who knows more than you do

and you're just mindlessly acting on their behalf of furthering their agenda. So I think that when you do that, when you destroy those things, it may take hundreds of years. It may take thousands of years. But I think those ideas will never go away. And it's sort of like that, there's that Maitria Buddha prophecy, which is basically like, as soon as all knowledge of the previous Buddha is gone, the new Buddha will be born, the Maitreya Buddha will be born.

And there's a very similar... It's like a cycle. Yeah, there's like a hermetic prophecy like that too. There's actually a video of Graham Hancock reading this prophecy on YouTube that has a lot of views, where he's talking about, you know, knowledge of the gods, it's going to go away. and this is something written thousands of years ago and I'm getting chills saying it right now because I think it's so true

basically all the sacred knowledge will slowly leak out and men will believe mankind will believe that it's all nonsense like they don't even exist there is no higher truth there is no sacred science

and then when that happens like the truth will be re-revealed and these are prophecies I like because I think they're they're just archetypally true and it's not like you know, I don't know.

It's like, it's more of like a natural ebb and flow of how information is, is, is sort of lost and found throughout time. But also like, you know, there is the idea that if you, you know, destroy all of humanity and all of the information, eventually we won't get Jesus, but we'll get something like Jesus. Yeah. You know, we will get math the same way we had it, which is interesting. We will get like physics and chemicals and atoms and whatever and that, you know, that information is kind of, you know, not beholden to space or time or anything else. But these stories seem to come back regardless. And so that is also perhaps a fundamental property of, you know, who we are. Yeah.

And I mean, there's other places we go with this too, like the idea that there are yoga cycles, right? So there's, or this concept of ages, right, where you, over these, over these world. really, really long periods of time, you shift into darker. Oh, the golden age. Oh, the golden ages. And in those more golden ages, where much, we understand reality much more clearly, the higher realm, much more clearly. And in the dark ages, it's just, we're cut off from it.

Again, almost cyclically, like it's the winter. Yeah. It's like the psychic winter of reality or something. And supposedly we are coming out of that. We're supposedly coming out of the Kala Yuga into the next, I forget which the next yuga is, but it's a much better, I think it is a golden, it's supposed to be, yeah. Best Yuga yet.

It could be, bro. I hope we'd make it to the next year. Hashtag my Yuga. All right. We got another question here for Marcus G. Marcus G. He writes, I'm planning a gateway experience at the Monroe Institute. You know, I had the same question before I went, and I was kind of under the notion that I should be doing a lot to prepare.

You know, having gone to do ayahuasca and other things like that, they put a lot of stress on what they call the Dieta, which is basically you got a pure. justify yourself. So usually what that means is, you know, stop eating certain kinds of food. Like pork is definitely always seems to be, it's interesting, oh, pork it seems to be forbidden across, like, every culture. Like, because that, this is like, not every culture. Yeah, right. But this is like a South American shaman thing. And they're telling you, don't eat pork, you know, don't eat too much salt, don't have sex. And there's, and there's more and less, um, stringent versions of it. But that was always my mindset. And again, reading from all these philosophies, philosophers, they really stress purification before you try to approach deeper realities. But they're like, no, just do whatever you want. Like, let us know what your dietary preferences are. They're like, don't stop smoking or drinking on account of this. Obviously, you can't bring drugs in. But like, if you smoke cigarettes or if you drink coffee, they're like, the last thing they want you to do is be in like a sort of withdrawal state, you know, while you're trying to do these things. Yeah. Bob was a pretty notorious smoker, I think.

too. So I don't, you know, but I mean, that's, that's my opinion is maybe think about some things that you can mindfully relinquish symbolically to the effort of trying to go into these deeper realities, but they're, they're not going to make you do it. It's kind of got to be your own motivation. And it will be hard because the food there is honestly pretty good. And if you're like, no, give me the vegetarian food, you may well have some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some foam-mo on your on your homies plate next to you but but yeah it's kind of up to you you know it's kind of up to whatever whatever feels right for you in terms of approaching the experience I ended up not really doing too much to prepare for mine but get your ducks in a row yeah get your

get your things sorted yeah before you go out like the last thing you want to do is have to deal with things while you're there and even more the last thing you want to do is deal with a thousand things as soon as you get back totally so if you can get ahead is one of the one of the one of the advice is don't make any life-changing decisions for three weeks after. And I can tell you exactly why, because you're going to be living on a weird little cloud and you're going to feel fuzzy all day and make these decisions based on the woo, which might not, you know, be so smart in here, down here in the physical realm. And they might be overall good decisions, but, but, yeah. Yeah, that's very good practical advice. I wasn't even thinking from a practical perspective.

that's super good advice. Yeah. And like people you're going to, I would think afterwards, the people you're going to be around are going to annoy you. Yeah. Because of their, uh, sort of lower density physical problems that you have no time for because you're this like spiritually ascended being, um, which only lasts so long, you know, you eventually kind of like phase out of that. But for that time period, people will kind of annoy you. You'll learn a let it go, but even more so, you'll annoy them with your, like, higher than now. So keep yourself in check, I would say, as well. A lot of grounding. Yeah. Good luck getting people to do an hour of focus, 10. Like, I think that's probably what everybody experiences is like, you got to try this

when you get back. And then everybody's like, oh, what? Yeah, meditate for an hour. Are you insane? Yeah. I can do five minutes. I know. All right. Good advice. Last one, Stan B. It's a good question. It's not coming up. It's not coming up. Oh, there it is. Knowing without knowing. I had the Ramsey and knowing.

It's a super good question. A couple things jump to mind immediately. There is a lot of people who believe that there were secret initiatory doctrines. Because when you read the platonic dialogues, there's a lot of, there's tons of veiled references to things that you actually have to read between. the lines to understand what they are. So there's hidden doctrines within the text. And there's also people who believe there were initiatory practices within the Platonic Academy. I know there are books about this. I can't bring them to the top of mind. But we know for a fact, actually, that he was an experiencer because like I mentioned before, he had been to the Temple of Elusus.

He had been initiated into the mysteries, the mysteries there. And that does entail encountering the goddess. And he's he spoke very highly of that experience and like held it in the highest sacred regard. And then we also know, we don't know for a fact that he was a Pythagorean, which again is initiatory and esoteric, but it's highly implied throughout all of his writings. Like he's talking about Pythagorean concepts all the time. He's actually hiding things like the Pythagorean music scale within Plato's Republic. So the whole book, like the whole 100,000 plus word book is actually secretly. organize like a musical scale. And then at the point in the scale, that's the golden ratio, he gives the divided line allegory, which is also a golden section. So he's doing things like

that all the time. Forty chess. Yeah, it's unbelievable, dude. Like, I really think that to just read his dialogues exoterically and say, okay, that's what it's about. That's layer one. Like, the texts in and of themselves are initiatory. So you knew that he understood. things on that level, that there's always an opportunity to see a deeper truth and a deeper truth, and he was trying to hide that in his text. So I have no doubt in my mind that he was a kind of experiencer. Like, he had come into contact with higher states of consciousness, with other entities probably. And you really, really see it in the successive holders of the platonic tradition, the Neoplatonist and everybody else. They're all super spiritual, pious philosopher

sage type dudes. Like some of them literally are priests of Apollo. Some of them are practicing theology, which is literally very, very phenomena adjacent because they're doing like magical rituals to come into contact with divine presences and stuff like that. So yeah, I highly, highly suspect he was an experiencer. And I think that his theories were definitely informed from sort of higher epiphanies. And that's another thing you can infer from that divided line, which for people that aren't familiar with this, it's alongside Plato's Cave. So he gives the Plato's Cave story. You know, there's people.

They're trapped in the cave. They're spending their whole lives chained up, looking at the wall. They only see shadows. They think the shadows are real. Somebody escapes the cave. They see the outside world. They see the sun. They have this crazy epiphany.

And they go back in. They try to free the people. The people don't want to be freed. They kill the person who's trying to free them. but then he basically alongside that gives this divided line and says like the divided line is it also the plate is also the cave story i feel like i'm like just rambling madly here but i'm going to try to bring this together but what what he's saying in the divided line is there's a kind of knowing that's above all of the intellectual kinds of knowing it's a pure experiencing um sort of knowing and this is noesis and it's very difficult to try to encapsulate this concept of noesis and it's very difficult to try to encapsulate this concept of noes But it's knowing and being at the same time. It's like just having an epiphany kind of knowing.

Knowing without knowing. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Interesting. So then if you have to, you know, where did his theories come from? If he's mainly informed by that kind of knowing or holding that kind of knowing to be the highest, in the highest regard. Who knows?

Well, he must clearly have some understanding of that. Yeah. Yeah. Would he, he'd be an interesting guest on the podcast, wouldn't he? would be. You'd probably have to have him on a few times. Yeah. And what's so, what's so interesting is like he's never the one talking. He's never a character in any of his own dialogues. He's never, um, yeah, he's very, the only thing we have that's actually written from his POV is a series of letters and many of them are disputed. Wow. So whether or not they're real. Kind of like Shakespeare.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a whole rabbit hole. Yeah. All right. Well, Michael Phillip, it's been an absolute pleasure having you, man. I feel so expanded after talking to you. It's crazy. I'm always more knowledgeable and I walk away from our interactions being, you know, more informed. And so thank you for joining me. Here too, kind man. This has been an absolute blast. Thank you for your hospitality. This is, this is the most fun I think I've ever had on a podcast. So thank you, brother. All right. That's high praise. Go check Michael out at third eyedrops. I'll leave the link below. And if you're in town for contact in the desert, you'll be there. He's doing a live podcast there as well. so you guys can check them out. I'll be there as well. Thank you again. Yeah, thank you, brother.