AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - Anthropologist Spoke To REAL Alien Beings - Dr. Michael Masters - DEBRIEFED ep. 47

Episode Date: July 25, 2025

AREA 52 Shop: https://www.area52.shopPatreon Exclusive Content: https://www.patreon.com/Area52investigationsDr. Michael P. Masters is a biological anthropologist and professor at Montana Technological University. He holds a PhD in anthropology with a focus on human evolution and anatomy. In this episode, we explore his research into time travel, the idea that some UFOs may be piloted by future humans, and the theories he presents across his three books: Identified Flying Objects, The Extratempestrial Model, and Revelation.The conversation takes a surprising turn when Masters shares a powerful personal story, a moment when he believes he communicated with alien intelligences through human beings. What follows is a discussion that challenges the limits of science and consciousness.

Michael Masters, Dr. Michael Masters, a professor of biological anthropology at Montana Tech, term that you coined the extra tempestrial hypothesis or theory. The idea that these beings that we're interacting with are essentially time travelers, and their crafts are essentially time machines. Some of them, yeah. And you can see these patterns reemerge over and over again from these cases. And what it seems to indicate is that they're not just us from the future. But there are us from a lot of different points in that future.

You know, this brings me to something I wanted to talk to you about and something that you've talked about before, about an interaction you had at a conference a few years ago. Multiple interactions. Yes. Where the high strangeness begin is with a UFO encounter. I was kind of called out to look at them. I'd say compelled.

It wasn't like I was instructed or anything. And then they flew off at high speed. So I was full on wanting to quit. So not long after that UFO encounter, I had this telepathic interaction with these entities. And then that fall of 2022 is when I gave a talk at the International UFO Congress, I was taken up to a room. A stranger comes out, puts his chair right up against mine face to face, and then tells me, we know you've been thinking about quitting lately and we'd prefer you not do that.

Problem is I didn't tell anybody that. But yeah, there was something speaking through him. And not just something, Chris, this is the important part. It was the same entities whom I have had multiple interactions with since. They said through him, once you know who we are, you'll know how we know that. Three women came out into the balcony at one point and were sort of made to turn and walk back inside. What do you mean made to turn?

none of us at this point they came out none of us were moving our mouths he turned and said can you close the door like that's all i remember and all three of them turned at the exact same time walked back inside closed the door nobody came out the whole rest of the time that this is taking place they eventually put me into a sort of trance where my eyes were open everything was black so i couldn't see it went black yeah and they told me that would happen this is what will happen we need to put three things in your brain you won't have access to the information. You'll still have your eyes open, but everything will go black from top to bottom. And then you'll start to see and feel information. That is exactly what happened. I did see the information. It did go in my brain, like a freaking fire hose. And when it was over,

I felt like my head was very heavy. I could barely even lift it. And I don't have conscious access to that information. Like, I couldn't talk about it. It was just so overwhelming. It was It terrified you. It terrified me. I mean, it's a date. Ladies and gentlemen, today I'm joined by Michael Masters, Dr. Michael Masters, a professor of biological anthropology at Montana Tech, whose doctoral dissertation, oh, you went deep, is, yeah, it was on craniofacial growth

in the development and homin and evolution. That's true. Fascinating, fascinating stuff. Your name, obviously has been synonymous with the idea of future humans. in this space and something, you know, a term that you coined the extra tempestrial hypothesis or theory. You know, also your thesis was involved in analyzing temporal shifts in the skull and facial morphology of humans. Yeah. Turning slowly into, well, into these little guys here, actually, the gift from Paul Heineck, by the way. Oh, those are beautiful. Yeah, skiff gnomes,

as he calls them. Giffnomes, doing little yoga poses. I like it. Yeah. So Dr. Michael Masters, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you, you know, traveling here from Montana just to have a conversation with me. It means a lot. It's been great, man. I appreciate the invite and it's been a lot of fun bastardizing the French language while I'm here for a couple days. Yeah, definitely not the same French language. I'm sure you're used to. I mean, I wasn't great at it there either when I was living in country, but it is fun to try. I do appreciate the culture and the language. French Canadians, it's beautiful here, beautiful space. So yeah, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Today we're going to talk about a lot of things, man. We had breakfast prior to this and we were just going down like some crazy rabbit holes about, you know,

where our minds are at spiritually, also talking about time travel and all sorts of funky subjects that I hope will get into. Yeah, absolutely. I do want to, I do want to sort of start And this is, you know, part for the course, every podcast, we got to run through a few things to, like, catch people up on some of your work. Namely, your first, or the first book that I have here, the identified flying objects, which is basically taking your thesis to, like, that next level. Creating the theory that you have and that you're known for in this space, which is the idea that these beings that we're interacting with are essentially time travelers and their crafts are essentially, possibly time machines. Some of them, yeah. That's kind of the main idea.

And you're right. So it's interesting because I got into all of this when I was very young because I had a sort of vision that popped in my head, something that sort of led me down this path. And it's funny because it's kind of the opposite of what a lot of people think. They're like, oh, how did you get into UFOs? And it's more like, how did you get into biological anthropology? How did you get into human evolutionary anatomy? me because this little image that popped in my head when I was eight or nine years old was sort of a chimpanzee-like early hominin form, a modern human, and then this archetypal,

what did you call these little troll guys? Skiffnomes? Skiffnomes. Yeah, with the big heads, the big eyes, the small faces. And just that question then, could they be us from the future? So I started out in physics and astronomy and then switched to biological anthropology in my sophomore year to investigate that question, obviously being aware of confirmation bias, selection bias.

Like I just had an open mind of this question of could they be us in the future, coming back to visit and study their own homin and evolutionary past. In the same way that I would as a biological anthropologist, as an anthropologist in general, I'd be interested in their culture, all the things that don't preserve in the fossil record, you know, to see those, the language, the social interaction, how they have sex. Like, all these things that don't preserve. if that would be really cool to know. And you can answer all those questions

of the time machine. So I get the sense based on what they're described doing in our time. Some of them, obviously there's a lot of variation and how they look too. There's variation in the form. But a lot of it is very indicative of what we as modern anthropologists would do

if we had access to the same time travel technology. And we would look to them a lot like how these great aliens look to us now in our current present. If we went back even 160,000, thousand years into the past. We have a big forehead. We have larger eyes, smaller faces, less hair on our bodies, but we still have upright walking. We still have penidactyl. We still have a tetrapod configuration, two gut openings, eyes, nose, mouth in the same place on our skull. So

there's so many similarities that seem to indicate that they are hominins, or at least the vast majority of them are. But just at a more evolved point in our own evolutionary future. So I think, Yeah, I think it's helpful just to kind of take now and look back in the same way that we might be seen us in the future looking back on us now. Yeah, so your work essentially draws a straight line in comparison from where we came from, where we are. And if you draw that line out even straighter, you get pretty much exactly what these people are describing when they meet these entities. Yeah, for the most part, I mean, again, there is a lot of variation. And we have to take that into account. You know, as scientists, we can't just toss out outliers.

those outliers might be really important for helping us understand the breadth of this phenomenon. So, but for the most part, and I oftentimes cite the Dr. Edgar Mitchell-Free study where they interviewed experiencers who, even in recent history, have kind of been pushed to the side because it's just too weird people don't want to wrap their head around it, but these might be the best sources. This might be the best information because they had the closest form of a close encounter you can have. And what they described, based on the results of this study, the majority are human, just like us. Like, that was the most commonly described as human. And I overlooked that in my first book, identified flying objects because I was solely focused on the grays,

long-term evolutionary changes, overlooking the fact that a lot of people describe people who are outside the craft doing jumping jacks. They're collecting grasshoppers to study the ecosystem, also something we'd want to do in our future if we're living on the same planet. So they have kitchens, they have bathrooms, they have clothes strewn about the floor of their craft, and they look just like us. So I kind of tried to write that wrong in my second book by looking at a number of cases over about 90 years on five different continents to really bring in the scope of just how broad and variable this is, but also importantly, to demonstrate how many commonalities there are, how many similarities there are. And you can see these patterns reemerge over and over again from these cases. And what it seems to indicate is that they're not just us from the future, but they're us from a lot of different points in that future.

Whoa. Yeah, that would definitely fill some plot holes there. You know, a lot of the cases, you know, some cases which you have cited in the extrater tempestrial model, which, you know, you look at Travis Walton, where he had this encounter primarily with these beings and these orange suits that, you know, you know, know, physiologically looked a little bit more like this. I know there were some differences, but they had the larger heads. They were shorter, bigger eyes. But then throughout that, he encounters humans, or what seems to be humans, at least. And they possess, like, great strength.

You know, they're beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah, they're like prime. Wallace. Yeah. With, I think he said they have like a familial connection almost. Like, they look like each other. That's right.

Yeah. And again, those are things. things we'd expect based on another common trope throughout the phenomenon is the hybridization program. So it's important for the theory as a whole to understand that based on the biological classification of species concept, where if you have two organisms that can mate and reproduce viable offspring, they're considered the same species. Classic example is the donkey and the horse. They can make a mule, but that mule's infertile, so we consider them separate species. However, if we're reproducing with these advanced big-headed aliens by the definition that we've established for

what two species are as the same species, they would be considered the same species. But it's also that, you know, that familial connection jumped out to me because you might be taking the same gametes from one individual who have certain characteristics that you've already identified in that person. That's why you took them up and extracted sperm and egg from them in the first place, and then you reuse those in other individuals. So you would expect to have that sort of sibling resemblance, maybe even twins, resemblance because you're using the same gametes to make these same hybrid individuals. And another thing, too, like the whole walking amongst us question, you could easily create humans to fit in any time period throughout the past by taking

the gametes of certain individuals at different points in that past and hybridizing them in just the right way that they would retain certain characteristics, maybe telepathic or sort of high intellect, intuitive characteristics that are indicative of the human future, which they seem to be based on these encounters, but give them the physiological characteristics of people at any time throughout the human past. Well. I mean, I'm not saying that's happening. I don't have proof that any of these things are happening. I haven't seen it myself. But the whole point in writing these books was to just look at the broad

degree of variation in these accounts and try to pull information from those and recognizing patterns. And that's a big thing that we do in anthropology in general is just try to understand human variation, but also those commonalities. We have this thing that's sort of at the heart of what we do where we're focused on cross-cultural variation over time, over space.

But what's even more important to us are the commonalities, what we call cultural universals. And there's a lot of examples of this, things like marriage, for instance, like every culture throughout throughout some form of marriage. Obviously, there's a lot of difference in how we do it in different places and throughout time, an incest taboo. And these make sense if you think about them, like you could have people throughout any culture in the world, start making babies with close relatives, and you get an increase in homozygous recessive characteristics, they're negative traits, they're bad, and you go, oh, I only see these when I reproduce with my relatives. Maybe we make a rule against that. So a lot of these have sort of an innate biological origin point. But those things tell us so much about what it means to be human and about the human past and the way people organize themselves. And I feel like if we take these account seriously, these encounters that people have where they're actually in the presence of the beings, communicating with the beans, and we start to focus on those commonalities, those sort of abduction universities,

If you will, it might give us deep insight into not just who they are where, when they're coming from, but why they're doing what they're doing, what their intentions are, what our own future might look like based on the physiological and cultural aspects of these beings. Hmm. That's so interesting. And again, so interesting that these might be from different points in time, like that we're not dealing with one over-encompassing species that's traveling back because, you know, know, as you know, this is a strange area. And in this strange area, there are so many outliers. Like, we're already dealing with an anomalous topic. Within this anomalous topic, there are a million anomalies that we can't, that we have to consider, right? And there's a case that you talk about in your book, Antonio Villaboa's, which I first heard about through Corral Lorenzen in an old book. I thought it was just one of the most interesting, obviously one of the earliest sort of documented abduction cases. Yeah. It was right around the Betty and Barney Hill time, I think, like late 60s maybe.

Yeah. I think it predates Betty and Barney Hill. I think you're right. I think you're right. But the interesting thing about that interaction, well, first of all, you have all of the same characteristic traits of an abduction. You have his tractor not starting or like shutting down. You have an egg-shade. craft, you know, tripod, sort of landing on the ground. And you have these little men in spacesuits chasing him, bringing him into the craft. And then it gets hot. And then it gets busy. Yeah. There's, but there are some interesting points. So for those that don't know what ends up happening, they stick him in a room. They forcefully undress this gentleman. And in the, in the, prior to this, actually, they undress him. And they wash, they lather him down with a clear liquid, which he later perceives in an interview to be some type of aphrodisiac where Coral Lorenzo was like,

no, I'm pretty sure they were just wiping the germs off you. Yeah, it was probably a cleanse. It was probably a cleanse. And based on his description of the woman, I don't think he would need it. Right. She was super hot. He was into it. He was into it. She, but she, it was also strange because she was like, below five feet, she was like shorter. She was a shorter person, had like fiery red crotch and armpit hair. but like high cheekbones, big eyes, beautiful, but like very strange physiological traits. That's still very human. Yeah, he said she was human.

She had all the parts. Just different from the humans that he's been familiar with. Yeah. Yeah. And then they did the deed twice. I didn't know about the second one. It was twice. I'm going to have to read up on this.

He went back for a third time and she pushed him off. And he felt slighted. At this, he's like, oh, I felt like a stallion like I was being used. And so he was kind of heart. broken my heart. I do remember him saying that he felt like just kind of a, uh, a baby daddy from the stars or something. He didn't use those words. Yeah. I think that's how we might express it, but I didn't realize that's why. Yeah. And then she pointed, uh, to him, her tummy and then the stars, and he interpreted that as, oh, she'll be back. Yeah. Which wild interpretation of that. Uh,

but could tell you, uh, it's interesting just psychologically what he was going through. He was going through some type of like heartbreak and like, you know, scenario where to her it was completely transactional. It was. Yeah. It was for a purpose. Yeah. I would love to know more about the selection process too, because he did have an encounter with his brother where they saw a light come toward them. He looked at it for a while. Then they both got the classic UFO amnesia or ambivalence or whatever. Like, whatever, we'll just go to sleep. So clearly there was like a vetting that happened beforehand. And yeah, I thought it was really interesting, too.

They lathered them up. They also made them puke beforehand. So it's like a full expunging of everything, get rid of it, wipe them down. And that's something I overlooked, too, between my first and second books, is that if we do share an evolutionary relationship with them and they are human and we are human in different forms, then we could obviously have more vector diseases, communicable diseases that are spread between us. And that's not even something that crossed my mind in the first book. But then I started reading all of these cases. There's another one of Mike and Leo Dorshack, one of the first cases,

where they were eventually allowed. It was kind of like the children, right? They were boys. Yeah, they were just young boys. Mike was, Leo was older. Mike, I think, was his younger brother. Eventually died in the Korean War. But it was like Tamien the Fox and the Little Prince. They were just allowed to get a little closer each time. And it's almost like they were instructing them how. to approach, but also being mindful of, you know, the space and blowing their minds. And they eventually were allowed on the ship and they made them go through a little like spray cleanse and change clothes, which makes sense. Like we can exchange more pathogens with chimpanzees because we share a more recent common ancestor. Ninety-eight percent plus of our DNA is the same. So obviously we can

harbor the same types of viruses and bacteria and parasites. But it makes sense that across time, we would be doing this because there's got to be a whole different pathogenic load in those different times. And we could be bringing things to them that they eradicated long ago. They could be bringing things to us that are completely novel. And as we know from what happened with Native Americans and all parts of the Americas where they were exposed to novel diseases that hadn't existed here before, they just decimate a population. Yeah. The reason most people in Europe weren't affected is because they were exposed to those diseases from all of the, they're agricultural groups that they had descended from. So, yeah, they could be protecting us just as much as we're protecting them. In fact, it's more likely that that's the case because they have arguably better medical system than we have. Yeah, kind of like how we're treating those sort of tribes on these remote islands that we're not allowed to be in contact. Exactly. Yeah, most of that's to prevent diseases. Same thing happened with rubber tapers when they would go into the Amazon, just decimated these populations.

And unfortunately here in the Americas, it creates something called Terranolius, where it was the impression of open land, which wasn't the case. There were a lot of indigenous groups that inhabited all of these lands, but they had been so decimated by the new diseases that it created this false impression of open land that could be taken over by whoever. Right. Wow. This video is brought to you by Huckberry. Okay. I'm going to be real with you for a second here. One thing I don't like doing is going out shopping for clothes.

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And you won't regret it. Go check it out. So, a bit of a tangent there, but it is related. But it is related. Of course. And this comes up as well in documented cases, you know, my mind goes to Virginia, Brazil, where this gentleman after picking up one of these oily sort of greased up, looped up beings. Yeah.

He was all smelly, you know, smelled like ammonia, smelled like, you know, sulfur, whatever it was, brought him to the hospital, ended up dying. and the sort of what was on the autopsy or whatever was general infection. Yeah. And that's all he gave him was general infection.

So it's like, that's a scary thing because like scarier than, you know, perhaps them shooting us with lasers like some type of Independence Day movie. Right. Is a disease that could just wipe us all out.

And I mean, there are kind of versions of that. It's not quite as cool and sexy, I guess, exploding. But yeah, I mean, there was a show I watched with Ryan Reynolds. I probably shouldn't bring stuff up if I can't remember the details of it. It's fine. But it was like some little creature that they were studying in space and it got loose and then it was coming down to infect the whole planet. Ryan Reynolds probably wasn't even in it. I really suck it like movies and names.

We get it. Yeah, but look it up, I guess. I don't even know what you would use to look that up. But that does come into play from time to time. And that's kind of why I feel like an idiot for overlooking that in the first place, you know. And there were a couple other things that I didn't think about in the first book that I brought into the second one, like the role of technology and AI, you know, it's, it's occurred to a lot of people, myself included, that some of these smaller grays are likely drone-like. Yeah, droid, drone, avatars, whatever. And they might be biologically constructed. Yeah. And a lot of what I try to do in each of these books is to draw a correlation between the past and the present, and what types of technology is not just morphological changes that go

into our craniofacial anatomy, but also what kind of cultural implements do we have now that we see in these future humans, if I can call them that for the purpose of this conversation, and what kind of cultural technological connections do we have? We're already trying to make robots. We're trying to make them in our image now. It might be that some of these kind of worker bee types are biologically constructed droids who didn't evolve on their own. That's why they don't have external genitalia. That's why they don't have... They're disposable.

Yeah, they're disposable. They can be sent in to take Whitley Streber out of his bed in the middle of the night, even though he has a shotgun next to his bed, because they're not something that has a soul potentially or evolved or as a family because they were made for this purpose and they understand that purpose. So, yeah, I mean, and there are actual robots, too, like the Calvin Parker and Charles Hickson case. Like they described that thing that came out and got them as a robot.

Yeah. You know, beep boop, beep is it's a robot, just like any other. And then they were taken in and there were people. They described people that were actually involved in the study of them, the scanning and the things that took place while they were subjected to paralysis. But the actual dangerous, scary part of that abduction was done by a robot. So, and that's another example, I think, of sort of the time between. They also had to inject them with something to make them paralyzed, whereas these ones with the bigger heads seemingly use mind control to make you fall asleep to keep you asleep.

Or to even calm you, sedate you. Like there is, are you familiar with Dan Burrish? So Dan says that it's in the eyes. And a lot of experience just say this too, that when you look into their dark, dark eyes, all of a sudden, he says they flood you with endorphins. In an interview he has, he said, they flood you with your endorphins. And he said the rogue ones, this is the words that he used. He's like, those are the ones that come get you at night. That's how they get you.

They flood you with endorphins. And so we're feeling, no, this is like a motherly, familiar, loving entity. But all that's just an illusion. You're just doped up. You're doped up. Awesome. Can we get some of that? Can they bottle that?

Endorphins? I'm pretty sure there are some. Pupil endorphins. Yeah. I would take some of that shit. Yeah, no, that's cool. I have always wondered if there's something biochemically that's happening or if it's just sort of, because like I've gotten to the point in meditating, I use this very specific meditation technique

where I can put myself to sleep instantly. Doesn't matter how much anxiety I'm having at night or, you know, how much caffeine I've had. I can drink three cups of coffee right before bed and just boom, put myself to sleep. So I kind of wondered if they were doing something similar, although maybe there's a biochemical aspect of that too. I don't know. But that makes it seem like there is something that they're doing to release something that has a physiological response. Yeah, that isn't so quote unquote magical. Yeah.

It's not a brain to brain. It's scientific. I'm just shutting down your brain with my brain. That's right. There would actually be something. Yeah. And it's too bad we can't set up a lab where they come in and do these things. Obviously, that would bust this wide open.

Actually, I forget who I was talking to about this. I wish I could remember because it was a super funny conversation. Was it Ryan Reynolds? It was. It actually was Ryan Reynolds. We were on the set of how to turn your brain off. No, but we were talking, I think it was Kevin Knuth, maybe. But we were talking about how, once you put cameras in to try to study this, they go away. And we're like, well, why don't we start a company that's like Ritex UFO or something, you know? We're like somebody's being plagued by these creatures. And then we just set up all this technology and then they're never affected again. I've asked that to Whitley and to some other experiencers. And the answer that I keep getting back is that it won't matter.

Really? They'll shut it off. They'll go around it. They'll like it's, and a lot of that also, as I'm sure you know, a lot of the adductions are non-physical. Also true. Which is a very, very strange place to start a conversation with people, you know, if you want to get them on board, these things being real. Especially in the materialistic society. Exactly.

And so their soul body, whatever that is, gets floated through the walls and onto these crafts and, you know, surgery is performed on them non-physically, but they still feel it. And they can still wake up with scarring. So very strange. I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Because it's something that's really fascinated me. I haven't been doing as many of these conversations lately. And this is making me realize how much I miss them as well. But one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is this difference between sort of the physical, tangible aspects of the phenomenon and then the more metaphysical components that do involve interactions that seemingly take place outside of time and space.

So, for instance, I think there really is an actual machine. I think the saucer-shaped craft. I talked about this a lot in my first book. The sort of form follows function aspect of this. I trace the whole history of how we've come to understand how backward time travel would take place since Einstein's 1915 paper on general relativity and the solutions to his field equations. Van Stockham, Godell, Tipler especially showed that if you take a massive or highly energetic ring sphere or disc, shrink it down to the right size and it's rapidly rotating, it can create close time-like curves. So the form of these craft, not all of them, obviously not the triangular ones, for instance. I refer to those as a floating fertility facility because it seems to be where a lot of this hybridization and incubation chambers are.

But with the actual... It's funny because the other term is alien reproduction vehicle, ARV, which could stand for that type of reproduction as well. Oh, yeah. I know. I actually asked my friend Darren King about this because he has a podcast called Liminal Frames with Nathan. and his co-host, and they kept talking about these reproduction vehicles. And I wrote him a message, like, what do you mean by that? Like, are you talking about where they reproduce?

And he said, no, he said the same thing. Yeah. But I was confused as hell for like two days. And I was like, I just need to write him an ass because I don't. And no, it wasn't. But yeah, it is funny that they seemingly are both. Yeah. And especially, like, you look at enough cases and I cite a number in the extra tempestrial model

where people are being moved through these rooms, like, like cattle, you know, stripped naked, stuff's happening. And then there's also these rows of incubation chimps. I got off track a little. But what I think's happening with the circular, rapidly rotating ones is those are manipulating time and space. You know, not just from the physical form of them and the form follows function capacity, but also based on eyewitness accounts of what's happening in and around those craft, like a sphere of influence as Jim Penn is. and called it, where time and space seem to be manipulated. And there's multiple cases in my second

book where people with different interactions at different times describe those same types of things happening. But there's also sort of this timeless, spaceless aspect to them too. And that middle ground between is what I'm really trying to figure out now, you know, because it's the same thing, I think, with these physical bodies that we inhabit. We experience time only in these bodies. Once you leave this body, whether it be an OBE or a near-death experience, time, space, fear, hurt, pain, all of those things disappear because those are things that we can only experience here is probably a big part of why we are here. But the UFO phenomenon also has those components. Jacques Valet's been saying this for decades, that there is very much a metaphysical side

to this and they're not mutually exclusive. But I think it's important to recognize both, especially when we're talking about time. Yeah. Because I, as a strict materialist for most of my life, was really only focusing on that, how is time being manipulated by this rotating craft? That's it. But there's this whole other aspect of this phenomenon with much like what you're saying, where the body is there, but things are still happening that are a part of that body and then relationship between the body and energetic essence or soul or whatever, that's able to be manipulated too. Yeah, and we can only really study what's observable.

And so when we see the outcome of time being manipulated, you know, it gives us clues in this physical world what's happening, but something totally different might be happening in the non-physical world that just looks like that way in the physical. No, it's such a myopic view, but it's also all we have. all we have currently currently yeah yeah and and it sucks too because the scientific community doesn't take anything non-physical into account because it can't be studied and and you and i we were talking about earlier we're both guilty of this for most of our lives if you can't put an alpha error value to it what's the point you know and that's what i actually just finished on the way out here i finished entangled minds by

dean raden he does a fantastic job of demonstrating all of the scientific literature one after the other going back all the way to the Society for Scientific Research, Frederick Myers and all of the other names. I can't remember. Ryan Reynolds, I think, was one of them, who were associated with organizing the society in the late 1800s. Alfred Russell Wallace was a part of this group who helped develop the theory of natural selection with Darwin. But going back all this way, people were taking this seriously, these non-physical, metaphysical things. I'm pretty sure Frederick Myers coined the term telepathy even because he was aware of this is a real thing. It's all of these studies, but it's not taken seriously by most people in academia, not because it's not true, not because it doesn't follow strict scientific protocols, because it's too weird. It's not some, it's not some, it is though. It is. It is fundamentally. It is fundamentally nuts and bolts, but we don't fully understand it.

Sure. So it's a hell of a lot easier just to push it to the side and say, nope. Yeah. So we create these excuses, but none of them are valid. So I don't know. I think that is a stumbling block for those aspects of the UFO question too, because we already don't take consciousness into account, which is likely fundamental. And that is starting to gain some traction. In fact, it kind of seems to me that you have like classical mechanics, you know, like ice skating, bowling balls, rolling,

things like that. And then you have quantum mechanics. And then classical mechanics kind of emerges from quantum mechanics that seemingly emerges from some sort of energetic consciousness field. Yeah. Some timelessness. Yeah. Where in that, like what that would mean is that particles that go into making ice skates and bowling balls, billiard balls, whatever stupid widget we use in that, are all emergent from this underlying base source of energy. Yeah. That is likely the starting point for all things in the universe. So I kind of see fundamental, the fundamental aspects of the universe are consciousness. Yeah. And you might say, well, this guy went off the deep end, which is possible. But I mean, I agree with that because,

you know, I'm not maybe trained in physics as much as a professor of physics or theoretical physics might be. And so for me, it might even be easier to grasp this concept than, you know, Well, one of my biggest stumbling blocks, personally speaking, is that, you know, I saw this idea and read about this idea of pan-consciousness. And, you know, the main idea now that most neuroscientists and physicists would say is that we create consciousness from these physical bodies. I couldn't understand how a rock or a tree has consciousness. Yeah. And then I started reading more about it. And it became obvious that all of these things grow out of that sort of zero point energy field.

And then I just recently, I started to think about this problem of wave particle duality. And it almost seems like everything as a wave, even matter as a wave. Like you could pass a human through a double slit and we would act as a wave if you shrunk it down and forced us hard enough. But it seems like these particles are kind of just frozen light that grew out of the wave. You know, where you have the decoherence and then you have matter that's tangible and physical. And that's what we work with. That's all we have to work with and doing these experiments and getting P values. But it likely came from that original source of energy and waves and light.

And I don't know. I just, it makes more sense to me now. And especially after having experiences where I was really forced to figure out what the hell this is. Like, what is this physical reality, you know? I didn't mean to take a little tangent away from the UFO thing, but I feel like it's so related. Yeah. With the UFO question, too.

The physical craft that are actually bending time and space, and these are our actual future human descendants, versus the aspect of the phenomenon that's more intangible and more metaphysical, but is maybe not equally important, potentially more important to the whole question. Yeah, and that's something that even John Mack said early on is, I think it was abduction when he said, you know, we're concentrated on the physical, but the non-physical, it would be a mistake to ignore the non-physical stuff and a great mistake,

I think. Yeah, and he knows that better than anybody, how much you have to tow the line. Yeah. And I feel like a lot's changed even since then with the way, I feel like time travel, UFOs, consciousness were all sort of bad words. And slowly the stigma is waning for each of those, including consciousness, which is great. Yeah, I think conversations like these and books like the ones you're writing help advance that line of thinking at least. As long as it made any damn sense, I was listening to myself and I was like, I mean, it makes sense in my mind and it's hard to articulate.

Sure. Well, you're articulating things that are completely immeasurable. Yeah. You know, so it's obviously going to be a little difficult. Yeah, and in science, we're not supposed to use personal experience or anecdote in order to inform our opinion on things. But I kind of feel like there's a pass. Once you get to the edge of what we can know using our physical reductionist methods, I mean, it becomes speculation, but it's also experience-based. And again, if you talk to enough people who have had experiences that kind of transcend that veil, that peek behind the veil, that transcend the boundary.

of the frozen light and the active wave light, I think you can learn something from that. So I don't know. You know, maybe what I said will make sense to somebody. I definitely think it does. At the right time and the right place, that'll write me and have a way better way of explaining it. I don't know.

Possibly. Yeah, I think all of that comes down to consciousness. You know, the more, and we spoke about this little bit at breakfast, but the more you look into the UFO space, the more you look into aliens, the more you look at like extraterrestrial, whatever they may be, the more it always sort of like goes inward. And you're like, oh, it's all about consciousness, whether, you know, I think part of me even thinks, like, if we're going to,

if we're going to think contact, if we're going to think, you know, talking to these beings and having some type of open communication, we got to learn their language, man, like, because we're not going to be able to communicate. There is such a disparity in between our way of sort of archaically, sort of a speaking versus them just telepathically sending notions of thought. I mean, it's such a vastly different way of communicating that for us to even measure UFOs, we should probably start understanding their language better, and which is telepathy, which is looking down the road of consciousness. But what if telepathy is inherently the language of the universe,

that if we're all not just entangled minds, but entangled everything, it almost seems like we moved away from that and we're slowly moving back to it. And I say that based on recent revelations from the telepathy tapes and having just read Dean Radin's book on Entangled Minds, also a little bit from personal experience, but also from the fact that if these are future humans, that is their main form of communication. But they can telepathically communicate things in our languages, too.

So they already know our languages. We would just have to work on learning, re-learning the language of telepathy. Yeah. Which almost transcends any sort of symbolism that we ascribe within our individual languages, French, English, you know, just at the top of my mind. Because you can convey images. You can convey entire ideas. Emotions?

Emotions. Yeah. there's so much more to it that I think they probably see us as highly primitive. But the fact that if these are future humans, you know, I will caveat this with that, then it seems to be something we're already in the process of unlocking. Yeah. Everyone already has the capability of doing, but we just forgot and we have to remember. Or are the genetic experiments being done on us meant to unlock those? You know, perhaps it's like some weird. weird closed loop. That could be too. That's a really good point. Yeah. That maybe it does take a certain level of modification progress. Yeah. And maybe that would be happening already because it kind of seems like we are already developing larger brains. Our faces mid and lower facial anatomy gets out

of the way of the brain. I don't think, again, consciousness comes from our brain. I don't think we're using our brain as much to send things as it is an antenna that dials into these frequencies and allows us to have those interactions with people. Yeah, like some quantum computer type deal. Yeah, and not just people, other animals. I really think that if telepathy is the language of the universe, it doesn't stop a person-to-person communication. No, I mean, even trees.

There's like, there's, I heard this wild fact, and please fact check me on this. like, you know, this, forgive me, this was probably some type of reel that I watched. But it was mentioning that a tree based on the saliva that the insect has will be able to identify the insect that's on it and secrete something to make itself not desirable to that type of insect, but then also send a signal to other nearby trees that they do the same thing. Now, if that doesn't sound like telepathy, like, you know, And we might be just looking at it through the wrong lens. Like, you know, when we say telepathy, we think spooky sort of weird supernatural behavior. But perhaps there is something very fundamental, like you said, you know, that aligns with more of this base consciousness that we're all sort of tapping into. And so there is a science to it.

We just have yet to. Absolutely. And a lot of what we do is study the effects of things, not the things. not the thing itself. Yeah. So we're one step removed from what's actually happening because, like we were just talking about, those things are very difficult to study right now. But speaking of the telepathy tapes, like Kai Dickens interviewed a couple of people.

They kind of kept it going with the talk tracks. Yeah. I think there was about 12 of them that they published after the main part of the show. And two of those individuals communicate telepathically with animals. And again, everybody's red flags going up and they're like, that's nonsense. It's not possible. It seems, especially because they did such a great job laying a foundation for the fact that this is a real thing. This is happening. It's really undeniable. They bring in super skeptic, scientists that just wanted to disprove this thing. And that's how so many people get into it. That's how J.L. and He got into it. He wanted to disprove UFOs. And I was like, oh, shit, there's something here. I kind of got to pay attention to this. But one individual that works with domestic animals, one that works with wild animals and domestic, and they made a very strong case for the fact that this happens. And again, sort of these cultural universals, if you see it not just in every human society,

but you see the same types of things in different species of animal, that really indicates that there's something fundamental there about our existence in this physical reality. Another interesting one is the fact that everything sleeps and dreams. Yeah. I got to sit there watching my cat the other day and it's having dreams just like we do. What the fuck is that? Yeah. Why do all animals sleep and dream?

What is that about? What is the space that we go to? And you can look at it in a functional capacity or hippocampus fills up and we need to flesh it out and store those long-term memories. There's something way more fundamental. I agree. I agree. I think we spend a way to. disproportionate amount of time sleeping for it not to be like I think the the time that we spend

sleeping is directly proportionate to the importance of the dream or the sleep state itself. Yeah. You know, I don't see it as being not anymore anyways, but as a task, you know, like a chore. Oh, I have to sleep so that I can be awake. Right. Or even something you want to do because you're tired and your bed feels so good. Yeah, there's something way more to it. Yeah, there's something, there's a whole other reality that you're tapping into.

And, you know, you mentioned Dean Radin, but also Rupert Sheldrake has a lot of work on sort of the precognitive aspects of dreaming and how keeping a dream journal you might be surprised to find that like there's a lot of precognition that happens during those states. Yeah. And then it's conducive to out-of-body states to, you know, all sorts of altered. Lucid dreaming too. I've found a direct correlation between meditation. and my ability to lucid dream. Yeah, same. Because they're similar where you can almost,

it's almost like in lucid dreaming, you're cheating a little bit. You're like propping open a door. And I can't keep that door open without regular meditation. But when I go into that dream state and I become aware that I'm in a dream state, I can keep it open,

but it's like, it takes a little work. And then as soon as I stop putting that effort in the door closes, I wake up. But I've also been able to get right back into it, which I never can do. do never but more recently it's been an option because i think maybe maybe it's related but i did start keeping a dream journal in february of this year and uh maybe was this podcast maybe you heard about it retroactively sent that back yeah retro causal yeah because i've been trying to keep one for

about 15 years and in february i just so it was definitely this podcast yeah yeah this was the precognitive uh catalyst for that yeah but it really does help. I don't, I mean, I've had dream precognition my entire life. I've, I've been very open about that even before a lot of really weird shit started happening to me. I have had that. I didn't think it was that weird because I've lived with it my whole life and it still doesn't feel that weird compared to a lot of things. But there's some, there's some timeless aspect to dreaming that can inform things that can help you learn not just about yourself but about broader things.

I probably sound like a six-year-old talking about this. That's why I read these books by people that know a lot more about it. But it's fun to try to figure it out and especially setting intentions, you know, going into those dreams, meditating for specific reasons, to interact in that world. Same without a body experiences. Once you get out of your body, and I feel like it's just a controlled environment where we put ourselves somewhere safe so we can leave our body and go do these things that are probably instrumental or important in some way. But once you kind of focus on that and take it seriously, I think there's a lot you can learn as an individual but also just about life reality. There's a lot of, you know, First Nations or Native tribes that have, you know, for generations and even Egyptians,

would have these dream walkers where they'd go out and collect information to bring back to the Pharaoh type deal. And, you know, so the dream state is definitely important. Also, Graham Nichols, he's another guy in the UK who does studies out-of-body. He has a lot of work on out-of-body experiences. He's had tons of precognitive out-of-body experiences, one that was verified by five other people. Yeah, he got out of body, and it was sort of blue. He says he's had like three pre-cognitive things that were like blue out of body. He was doing a technique that he had developed to get out of body. And just as he thought it wasn't working, he let go, it started working.

And he saw himself like in, on a street in old Soho, London, staring down the street. And this pub on the right just explodes. There's this bomb. And he gets this, he's hit by this, like, wave of emotion. And they wake him up because he saw he was, like, struggling the people around him, the five other people around him. And five days later, exactly. at that location. There was a bomb.

Yeah. And he was watching TV and he was like, it took a second for him to register. He was like, oh, wait a second. This. And, you know, so yeah, there's something, you know, why did he tap into that? It wasn't meant to, he wasn't meant to stop it, obviously. So what was the point there? And if he did stop it, he wouldn't.

He wouldn't have had it perhaps. Yeah. You know who does the best job, in my opinion, with this stuff is Eric Wargo. Time loops. Yeah, not just time loops, all of his books. Yeah. He had another one come out just a little tiny thing called Becoming Time Ferry, and I think, and even in that one too, because a lot of this isn't just a question about precognition, but about how time works in general. Sure.

And how there's self-consistency in those things and seemingly paradoxes like that. Well, if he had changed the past and didn't happen, how would he know he had to go back and change the past to keep that from happening? So I would definitely recommend to your viewers and listeners to check out his work. Because I think he does a better job than anyone else with regard to really giving great examples and analogies and metaphors and real world examples of how these things work. And it avoids paradox. There aren't paradoxes. Yeah. It's weird and it's kind of a mind fuck.

Like you've got to pay attention. but it's really fascinating too. Yeah, well, I mean, all that stuff is definitely enough to mess with your mind. Yeah. And I mean, to bring it back, if we could re-center a little bit, because I feel like I took us down a path that may have... Back to biology? No.

Back to time. Sure. Quick. Because there is, I mean, that's what started this whole tangent, is that there is an actual physical component to this, you know? And so the big stumbling block for a lot of people are these time paradoxes. So I just kind of wanted to revisit that. Gill-Less Wu, because I have an internal governor where if I start talking too much spirituality, metaphysical stuff, I stop myself.

But I do think that it's important to talk about that. And I spent three chapters in my first book talking about it because it's a really big hang-up for people. is well, what if, you know, we went back and we crashed a time machine into Roswell, for instance, and then those people went on to create this thing that eventually crashed. Like, there is no creator of it in the way that we perceive linear time. But it doesn't matter. You know, we call it a bootstrap paradox. It's not a paradox.

It's just it violates our fragile sensibilities with regard to linear time. That's right. So, you know, once you start kind of scratching at the surface, you could see how, our not even distant descendants could be making these machines that allow them to come back and physically study the biology and the culture and the evolution of their ancestors in a way that we, I would say, currently can't. Yeah. Because time machines haven't been invented yet.

Sure. And that's another thing people oftentimes get hung up on is that doesn't matter when a time machine was first invented because they are able to pick up, they could pick up me right now. In fact, that'd be pretty sweet and probably good for your ratings. That'd be great. If they could do that, they'll knock on the door. I would love that right now if you guys could just. Which camera would you bring?

I mean, just probably any one of these, maybe. I would grab a couple too. Yeah, we'd just grab a bunch of cameras and run out there. It'd be cool to get it on this video only. Oh, that would be sweet. So it's only coming. So we leave that one for that. Yeah.

That would be like a live stream. Dude, that would be sweet. All right, let's manifest that. Let's make it happen. But no, like, they could come back, pick up anybody from this time or any time within reach of that time machine and take them back to any of these different periods, you know? So that's another thing I think that a lot of people overlook is, and then the fact that we have similar types of beans and craft being depicted in cave paintings, you know, carvings and petroglyphs and geoglyphs and all of these things that seem to. indicate that it's the same phenomenon, potentially the exact same individuals. You know, you could come back, pick up Betty and Barney Hill and then go back to NASCAR and

they make a, you know, big-headed thing on a hillside for you. And it's the exact same people. Yeah. Another cool one is how you have a lot of lifetime abductees who go from being, usually it starts around age eight or nine. I don't know why a lot of sci phenomenon in general seems to originate an individual's lives around that time. But they get picked up over and over until old age, but they report that their captors don't age. And that would make sense in the context of a longitudinal study where you were going back. And within the same week-long period, you could pick this same individual up as a young child, an aged adult, into, you know, geriatric phase and learn everything about them. Like it's one of the best forms of data that we get, it's longitudinal study data from humans with disease, with psychological.

disorders. Twins are also very useful. So yeah, you could get all of that data in a matter of a week, but it seems like these people don't age because they're just doing a quick little study, whereas to them, they watch you grow up and become an elderly adult. So there's just so many little things about the phenomenon, even in this grounded physical reality, that do seem to indicate that there's a manipulation of time happening. Yeah, at least, um, You know, from that perspective of the abduction, you know, and genetic modification, at least a forward time manipulation. Like, because if you were living in a craft and you had no home planet to go back to, simply, you know, creating a strong enough gravity field around the craft would enable forward time travel. Yeah.

And so, yeah, you could effectively modify the entire human race's genetic makeup in a day, you know. And to us, it would be like, oh, they come back every thousand years. The gods are back every thousand years to give us metallurgy and religion and alchemy or whatever. And to them, it's just like, no, they're just par for the course. You know. And they probably already have a plan. There's probably already a research plan of what they're doing when. And I'm sure it's highly guarded too.

You know, you wouldn't allow anybody to just pop in one of these time machines and go back. Sure. You end up with a back to the future two scenario, people best. on whatever. Yeah. Every now that you're about somebody that's like, you know, do really well with the stock market and go on a time traveler. I think I've yet to see one of those verified. I don't know.

But yeah, it would make sense. Not just because protecting the past, you know, you would naturally want to avoid any sort of overt contact or some drunk kids get in a UFO shit into Kingston or whatever. But you'd also want to. it's probably really expensive. It takes a lot of energy, takes a lot of knowledge about to fly these things, you know? So I doubt I doubt anybody and everybody has access to these things, regardless of their intentions. I mean, who can just go build a spaceship and fly to the moon right now? It's the same sort of thing.

But we're talking about amounts of energy and technology that's far more advanced than anything we have. But that doesn't mean they can't come back and pick somebody up for many of these. Sure. And while we're on the subject, just real quick. And obviously you can edit in any way you want if none of this is relevant. But one thing that was pointed out to me, another thing I overlooked between the first and the second book, that was mentioned to me, and I've said this in a couple different places, because I wish I knew who to give credit to.

They claimed that they were an ex-intelligence officer. That's all they said. I can't verify that. Don't need to because what they told me made a lot of damn sense. is that the reason that we see them making these instant accelerations and decelerations, 90-degree turns, it's what tens of thousands of miles an hour, that would smash anything on the inside of the ship, isn't actually what's happening,

is that manipulation of time and space around the craft in the same way that you were just talking about with the right gravity, it speeds it up because of general relativity. But what they're doing is making this sort of space, time bubble around it. I've heard Lou Elizano talk about this, actually. I mentioned Bob Lazar. Bob Lazar. They're seemingly sort of warping space time around that craft. So likely what we see is a 10,000 G maneuver is maybe 1G to them. But they changed the reference frame of them

inside that bubble versus us outside of it. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I spoke to an experiencer. This is online on my Discord channel. And he had told, me that he was in one of these ships and they allowed him to navigate it, all right, which is a wild story. I've heard that from three different people recently. Like, I think some people. It's like fly to the navigator type deal. Some people are being taught to fly these things. So that's what he told me. And he said the way that it behaved because you didn't move. It was everything outside that moved. Travis Walton says this as well. When he goes into the room with the chair hits the buttons, everything just kind of shifts around. And it's destabilizing. Right. And so he says that he was able to do this. And what he said, the only way that I could explain it is as if you stuck a pin in the pixel of space and time. And that craft has never left that pixel. Interesting. That craft has been pinned to that location in space time and will never move. It was built there and it will die there and it will never move from that location of space and time. And everything is being manipulated around it. Yeah. And I was like, well, that's such a wild, mind-blowing thing to think about. There was actually an episode of Futurama where they described that same thing.

Like, it's basically working on the concept of the Alcubier Drive, where it's like warping space behind and in front. But the professor, and I'm kind of super fan of the show, says that exact same thing, that we're not moving the ship. We're moving everything around the ship. And that would make a lot of sense, like how the logistics of that are really impossible for my tiny little brain to fathom. But it does make sense. It makes sense how you would not be bounced around inside the craft. Yeah. And in time, too.

Like, they can seemingly just appear and disappear in time. That's one of the most commonly described things about these ships. And they'll kind of fade in and fade out of existence. Or even slow time or speed it up in these bubbles. There's been both of these observations. Ruiz and Bobway being one where these aliens would like float up to like almost slow motion moving and slow. And then you have other cases where they're watching the aliens dart back and forth like impossibly fast. And so there is like some type of time dilation happening through the veil of like your vision.

Yeah, Corporal Amando Valdez too. He disappears for 15 minutes to his, his platoon, but he was gone for five days. His watch said five days. Beard has grown out. Like, and then, yeah, you have the other case of Linda Jones where the grass is growing rapidly under her feet. God, there's so many. One of the really cool ones, again, to revisit Mike and Leo Dorcachek, and this is something I'd always wondered about, is how do they go into populated areas without being detected? And he specifically asked, he's like, you got these bright lights on the ship.

How is it that people aren't coming up? Like, you know, what the hell is that in this field? And they specifically said that they stopped time within a three-mile radius of the craft. They allowed him to come through, but everything's frozen. So they don't see the light. You know, like, you can't register anything. You can't register motion if there's no time. It takes obviously, and we take that for granted.

But our bodies have evolved to be able to recognize the passage of time to run from tigers and find mates and things. Then it made perfect sense. Like they just stop time. If they can speed it up, slow it down, They can also stop it to keep from being registered within our four-dimensional reference frame as well. Wow. That is so, that is so spooky because it really opens up the possibility that it could be right here right now watching us. You know, like there's nothing stopping them from just jumping into our reality unnoticed constantly. Yeah, and seemingly they have the ability to do it even outside of the craft itself.

Yeah. Like, you'll hear a lot of times, too, about a little electromagnetic wand. Yes. They can use to freeze animals. Yeah. I was just at a conference in Bozeman last weekend where David Politees was talking about a case where there were three elk had been taken before this guy had been taken in the UFO. And they were just frozen. Like over in the corner, and elk are big ass animals.

Yeah. You know, like, you're going to notice that. And they were all just deanimated over here in the side of the ship. like stuck in some temporal loop. And what's cool, too, is that, you know, this could help explain. I think there's a lot of things going on with the missing time thing, but that could help explain it in some cases where in addition to, say, a blue shift or red shift that's happening in association with the craft, if people are being deanimated for a period of time

in order to do things without freaking them out about what's being done to them and they're woken back up, they're obviously going to have missing time because they didn't experience that passage of time, but it was still passing without them. Yeah, essentially nothing happened. Yeah. Yeah. But the rest of the universe carried on as well. Wow.

That's, yeah. It's something I find really fascinating, but super hard to study. It is really hard to study, but, you know, like you said, and a conclusion that I've been coming to more and more is that if you want to know what the inside of a UFO looks like, you know, you can speak to whistleblowers, but you can also ask experiencers, Because potentially, you know, they might, they'll be able to tell you what they were wearing, what they smelled like, what they have you ever, by the way, speaking of what they smelled like, have you ever read the document from the Reddit whistleblower who said he was an EBO by a biological, sorry, molecular biologist? Yeah, that was like two years ago. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That was really interesting, too, because it goes through the physiology. Did we ever as a community come to a decision on that? So real fake, what? Well, here's the interesting part is that a lot of people who are molecular biologists seem to think that this person, because this was prior to like modern GPTs, right? So, first of all, like just right before. Yeah.

But secondly, everybody who is a molecular biologist says that this person definitely is a molecular biologist. So if it's a LARP, it's coming from there. But not only that, this person must have an immense. He probably knows a lot about the lore. He or she knows a lot about the lore because there are so many things that pop up in whether it's the old MJ12 documents or whether it's interactions like with beings that other experiencers have had. Whitley Strieber being one in his latest book, The Fourth Mind, the whole first half of that book is this document. Because Whitley says there are so many things that line up with what he experienced. And the first one was the secretion of the excretory system that they have on the skin.

And he said they would like wipe themselves and like wash off like that. Yeah. And in his first book community, he talked about the smell. Yep. He burnt cardboard. Yeah. And it like made the reality of the situation so much more palpable. Yeah.

Yeah. Sorry, I mean to interrupt, but what? Yeah. Yeah, so I was just kind of like curious to know what your thoughts on that was because they did also speak about the enlarged brain. They spoke that there were these microtubules on the brain that that was the study of that was paramount because they think that that's how they, you know, manipulated the craft. That was one of those things that that people kept sending me. Like, hey, have you read this? Have you read this?

Have you read this? And then eventually I did. And I thought the same thing is there seems to be something here that would be really hard to know unless they were who they said they were. I can't remember the specific details of what jumped out at me because it was a couple years ago when I read it. But there were little bits and pieces in there that seemed to dovetail with this theory. but I don't know. I'd have to revisit it to pull out specifics. I just, what I'm remembering is that sense when I was reading it.

Well, so like no teeth was the one. No, the, one thing that was interesting is that the esophagus, like, whereas, like, we have, like, a split, right? that goes from like food to like air or whatever. They, they don't have that. The nose was for air and the mouth was for food. Yeah. Which is interesting evolutionarily,

because that makes way more sense than something we have. A lot of things. Yeah. Because that's essentially like a death trap. Right. Yeah. And more recent human evolution. We're the only mammal that can choke and die because we have this.

That's right. So if you were like to create something, that would be more optimal. And you know, that would make sense too as far as the, excretory system, the digestive gastrointestinal, all of it, like, if you could bioengineer something, what's interesting to me, and there was this argument that was popular for a while, is like, you know, they're making these things. But my question was, you know, because I agree. I think they are making these, certain ones. Something's making them. Yep. So the buck doesn't stop it. These are manufactured droids, biological, mechanical, whatever they are, you still need to ask, well,

who's making it? What's the intelligence behind it? Yeah, same thing with the interdimensional. You know, that doesn't say who they are or what they are, or angels and demon. Sure. It doesn't answer the question. It's just with interdimensional mode of travel or angels and demons, it's an archetype that we're ascribing to this, you need to go a step farther. So obviously the same thing. If these are biologically manufactured or mechanical, but they do seem to be made, Who's making them, and we currently are making things in our image. It would make sense that they're making things in their image, too. The problem is that if they were making something to study us and the whole point was to be less obtrusive, less scary, you'd think they'd make them in our image.

Yeah. Not in their own. Yeah, it doesn't seem to be a factor. No. So they're not making them to like, well, except in the case of Travis Walton, where the human-like ones came to get them out of the ship. he was pushing buttons and stuff. But why would they both be in the craft then? Right, exactly.

They were already doing something else. And they're like, yeah, code red in the control room. Yeah, this guy's freaking out. Escape to Lumberjack. So, yeah, I do think that they're still being made by future humans to perform certain functions. And I completely agree that they would make them not exactly like us, but in a way where we would get past a lot of the problems. that we have. There's a guy, Dr. Bruce Latimer, he was the head of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History for a long time. He wrote a paper called The Perils of Being Bipedal, which I say,

I think in both of my books, because it's important. Like, upright walking is not ideal, even on a tiny planet like ours. It's likely to be even less common on other planets, vast majority of which are much larger than our planet. We're the only upright walking mammal habitually on this planet. And we suffer all kinds of problems, like hemorrhoids choking, which you mentioned, fainting, back problems, knee problems, neck problems. A lot of them stem from gravity. But even outside of that, you know, there's so many issues, like the vestigial appendix that we carry around that blows up sometimes, you know, to get that taken out. So, yeah, if you could make something.

Allergies. Yeah. The list is so long. We suck. Yeah. It kind of suck. Like we evolved to be smart. and mostly because we can have our hands available.

But we're pretty unique and we suck in a lot of ways, biophysically especially. But yeah, if you engineer something, you get past all those problems. And that would make sense why they're pooping out their skin. You know, they can still consume the food here. They can still oxygenate here. But then their excretion system, like, yeah, why not have that come out in a little bit all over as opposed to one big thing all at once or three times a day, depending on whether you're eating Taco Bell? So I do think that there are things they could do to make us the way that we are described looking.

Another interesting one to meme that I got a lot of shit for in my first book was the alien autopsy video. Yeah. It's fake. Yeah. It's obviously fake. I never said it was real. What I did say is that it seems to be based on a real autopsy. And based on how the internal and external and external anatomy of this individual looked was very similar to what you're saying.

It's not the same as ours. It's close. It's still penedactyl. It's still tetrapod, eyes, nose, mouth. But is there a second gut opening? You know, they didn't pan down to the butthole part. But there's clearly no external genitalia. They don't need to reproduce if they're being produced. Because they're being made by something else. They're not self-replicating. I would love to know if there was a butthole on this thing. Because if there's not. You and me both, pal. Let's go find out, man. When they come get it. us when that knock on the door comes, one of us is taking that camera down. Yeah. I would do that in the name of science. Yeah. I would show my butt hole to these aliens if they showed me there. I have no problem with that. I'd probably show them anyway just for fun. But that would answer a lot of questions too. And especially with that, because I've heard that over and over again. I don't think those are future humans. Yeah. But I do think they're being made biologically engineered to look for humans in their own image. In their own image. Just a quick interruption, folks. Hope you guys are and join the podcast, I wanted to announce that we have officially launched our Skiff 5 panel hats. You can check them out at area 52.shop. We chose the wall colors to make this hat. It also features a stitched on rubber patch. It's a beautiful little hat and a great way to support your favorite podcast. Check it out, area 52.com. Back to the show. I have a pet theory that I've been like swinging around a little bit, which is that this might all, they might all be part of some system, some type of autoimmune system that's been put here, and probably on 100 million other planets, exoplanets.

Yeah. That, you know, these things are probably, these massive ships are probably in the ocean. And they are, you know, there's all sorts of other, you know, tangential sort of related anecdotal evidence that supports this. but that they're being ejected and deployed from the oceans to, you know, stop the nukes, to perform, you know, these genetic modifications, which is why they have entities on board. Otherwise, there's nobody on board. Yeah. Like, it's a system that we're interacting with, like, completely autonomous, almost like some type of von Neumannesque probe that was sent here. And on every other planet dropped in the ocean.

And like, because if you were an intelligent being, if you were really, really advanced, you wouldn't need to keep an eye on, you know, your experiment or your zoo or your, you know, whatever it is that you got going on. You would probably have a system in place that do that for you. You know, it would be a waste of time for you to hop around to these planets. So you'd have some type of system there. And then so that's what I'm seeing. And are you familiar with like Skywatcher and like these guys? It seems like what they're interacting with is some type of immune response. Because if you're summoning through a dog whistle or through war games, simulated war games,

if it's an intelligence, you're not going to summon them twice. Like, they're smarter. They're just not fish, right? So you're saying it's kind of like like a mosquito is on the skin. and a hand comes out to swat it kind of thing, but more of like monitoring the entire system. The entire system. And if there is anything that tilts the scales,

it'll come monitor it, it'll come scan it. But there's also probably, you know, other biomes being injected into this planet and being sent off to other planets, which is probably, you know, accounts for the vast, you know, amount of life forms that are here, plant, animal alike. I think it's just, you know,

we have cephalopods. We also have praying mantis and we have sharks and we have, you know, zebras. Like it's so wildly different that it would make sense that this is like from a million different planets. And if you're if you're tasked, whether you're AI or not, if you're tasked to spread the seed across the universe, you would sort of in this like you would control this sort of panspermia, this, this, you know, this zoo, this cosmic zoo. And you would just implant these things. and they would take care of themselves. Yeah. And so these experiments,

even these abductions might all be just part of a system because, again, we're interacting with these crafts. A lot of times there's nothing in the craft. There's just a couple chairs and there's a bed. And you're like, well, okay, where do you poop? Oh, you don't have a butthole.

Oh, okay, it's all. And so it just, and then we're flooded with like images of like, oh, no, look, look how beautiful everything is. And then, oh, look at the terribleness. And then you forget everything. And then you're back to, and everybody is, oh, we're all special. And it just seems like we're interacting with some really intelligent system that's been put here to sort of help expedite our evolution, but also to maintain and sort of terraform, you know, our planet.

And that might not be outside of the, you know, the future humans hypothesis either. Like that might all just be another part of it, another dimension of it. But that's just something that's been ruminating in my brain. Yeah, no, I like it. It kind of has. elements of each of the main theories, extraterrestrial, interdimensional, ultra-temporrestrial for sure. Yeah. You have an advanced civilization sequestering itself like that. Yeah, I mean, it also sort of fits with, I know you said you're reading the raw contact material.

They say something very similar to that, less in a physical context, less like there's these machines and they're monitoring and, but more of like, you know, source logos and then the sub-logus loggai that exist and that they're sort of left to do their own thing, but also being monitored. And one of the reasons for our success, they say specifically is our free use of hands. That was kind of an experiment. I don't know if they use that exact word, so I don't feel comfortable using it. But basically seeing how all of these different iterations of life on all these different planets goes, maybe they're monitoring it from some sort of overarching consciousness sitting above the physical sort of capacity.

But maybe there's a technological component to that too. They didn't specify. Yeah. And you know, you look at all the different species that we are likely interacting with. First of all, most of them are bipedal, like you said. But also then we have what? You have a praying mantis, which can be found on earth. You have a lizard people, which can be found on earth.

You know, you have all these. It's like this giant family. Like they're all, we're all part of the same family. We're all, you know, there's no, these are all recognizable things. They're not things that are, you know, so foreign to us. They're a future us. Like they're, we all seem like we're pulling from the same genetic pool on some scale. Yeah.

I mean, well, everything on earth does share DNA, every living form. So there is a common element there for sure. You know, my take at this point is we don't know. so I really feel that any valid theory should be on the table. And especially because, like, I get pigeonholed as, like, the time travel guy. You know, from the very first conference I did, David Childress, I think, is his name. He's spent on ancient aliens a bunch. But he, it was me and him in an elevator, and he's like, oh, you're the time travel guy, right?

I guess so. But I really don't think that time travel explains this whole phenomenon. I really do think there's elements of crypto terrestrial, definitely ultra-terrestrial, interdimensional, I think is one aspect of both of those previous two. Yeah, especially the system thing too. When I talk about it, I think maybe it accounts for 40 to 50 percent of what's going on. Yeah. There might be rogue entities. There might be all sorts of other weird stuff.

I think there is all kinds of weird stuff. And I've long said that I don't think this theory explains the entirety of the phenomenon. I still get accused of that. Sure. Regardless of how many times I've said it in the last seven years since I've been speaking publicly about this, there's just way too much variation. There's way too much going on. And likely what we're looking at is some version of all of those things, where if we focus on certain parts of it, it can maybe be explained better by like a system monitoring influencing thing or other parts by more of a crypto terrestrial or others as like a more ethereal, ultra terrestrial, or some. I do really strongly think some of it is actually our physical descendants coming back in time.

But what percentage of the phenomenon is that? Just because I think it's part of it doesn't mean I think it's all of it. And likely, you know, what you're saying also takes elements of the different theories and sort of works them in. Because all we can really do is look at what's happening as described by people who have these interactions. Also more recently based on things people are saying from working. with the actual craft. Having these real documented, verifiable interactions, you know, are being sequestered away, but David Grush and the Skywatcher.

Yeah, Jake Barber. Jake Barber. So these people that, you know, and it's not really that different from the pilots or the policemen or the military that have seen things, but we're just getting more data points from more people. And if we bring that in, we can sort of see, okay, well, maybe that's like, 20% of it now or this one's down to like 40 or this is up. But honestly, like all of it should be on the table. I agree. And we shouldn't throw anything out because, you know, even if it explains 1% of it. Yep. It's important. It's important. I mean, if we can just, if we could explain 1% of it, that would be 1% more than we actually know. Yeah. I know exactly. Um, all right, I want to, I want to get to something. Actually, before we get to something, uh, one question that I'm sure the audience is going to have. And, and I'm pretty sure we have an answer to. to this. I'm pretty sure you do as well, and you've talked about it, but I do want a lot of pressure,

by the way. Well, it is like why, right? And the why seems to be, you know, there's the dropping, the alarming rate at which sperm count is dropping since the 80s was like 1% per year, some crazy fact like that. And so is that, in your opinion, part of the reason why they would be traveling back is to genetically alter us so that the preservation of their own species? Is that, would you say that that's, that explains the why? Like, what, what else, what other explanations would there be? I mean, I think that's, I think the why question is as nuanced as all of the other ones, especially the who question, who what, when where, why? Who, I believe, as we talked about, some part as future humans, what, it's kind of the same

thing. When, I do think, uh, more recently is a snapshot of different time. periods, I think we're seeing in the various physiological forms of these visitors, sort of they're ambassadors of their time, both culturally, technologically, and also physiologically. We're obviously the ones that are in possession of the time machine and are freezing elk and grasshoppers and rabbits with a time wand. They're more advanced than us technologically, but they still look a lot like us. Whereas the grays that can control our minds make us fall asleep, stay asleep, epic, telepathic communication. I'm guessing that's a very distant point in our future.

And how distant would you, would you assume? Oh, I hate that question. Okay, because the only reason I bring it up, because Dan Burrish has like two timelines of like two different things, is 50,000, 70,000. 70,000, yeah. I do strongly believe we could get to that point in about that period of time. There's a skull.

I actually just bought it, not the real one, because that would be highly illegal and impossible. But I bought a plastered cast of this early Homo sapien from 160,000 years ago. I believe from the Awash area of Ethiopia. It could be wrong about exact location. But if you look at this thing, even 160,000 years ago, which is a blink of an eye in homin and evolutionary history, it has the big brow ridges, it has the low sloping forehead, the big robust facial structure. it looks much more like a Neanderthal, Denisovan, Heidelbergensis, Bodo, than it does a modern human.

In 160,000 years, a lot of your listeners will probably be like, well, that's a long time. It's really not. And we've changed so much in that time. And importantly, we see an acceleration in the rate of change in our craniofacial anatomy. So if you fast forward, even if we take out of the equation how they may be manipulating us, and if we are the same species, they would be able to do that, or hybridizing with us or interbreeding at any point in history. And there's some indication that maybe that was happening.

I used to get asked that question. I'm like, I don't want to touch that. I'm far enough out there now that everybody probably thinks I'm crazy already. Anyway, there are a number of inocations. Let's go, man. There are enough indications that something's happening as indicated from cultural histories, biblical records, historical texts, religious texts of all forms, not just the Bible. So I would be willing to toss my hat in that ring and say that there may be some sort of,

whether it be intentional or just damn people from that time are hot, let's go make some babies. I don't know what the actual reason is, but that would obviously speed things up too. If we're interjecting genes from a more evolved future, those, you know, would move us in that direction faster. Even without that, it does seem like we could get to the point where we have these little DMT trolls or whatever you called them. I don't know why I can't remember. Skiffnomes. Skiffnomes. Why can't I remember that?

It does seem like we could get to the point where we have skiffnome characteristics in 65 to 70,000 years. What's interesting is that, like, we decided, I mean, these things they ramp up between the 50s and. 90s, right? Like this is 60s and 90s, I would say even more so, the abductions and the genetic modifications. And, you know, according to the data showing that we do, you know, we are declining in our ability to reproduce, wouldn't it be more prudent of them to abduct people from the 1850s? Well, I realize I didn't answer your question. I was completely. I'm back to it. I don't usually read comments and things, but I did get a comment recently that's like this guy never answers the questions. The problem is I do answer it. I just go a very long and winding road to get there sometimes. So if you're not willing to come along on the journey, trust that I do come back to it. And I was planning on getting back to the Y question because I think it's one of the most important ones. But yeah, there, where I was going is not just, you know, where I was going is not just, with the Dan Burr stuff, but that we are evolving quickly,

we are likely to look like that sooner than I previously thought. And a lot of people say, you know, millions of years will take us millions of years to get there. To your second question that I think is very much related to the first one, you would just need to go back to a period where you had enough genetic diversity, but also a large enough population, that you would have your pick. of the litter, so to speak. Right. The thing that gets a little dark is that, so with the idea in general, people are like, oh, wow.

So that means humans survive and we survive climate catastrophes. We don't nuke each other. Not necessarily. It gives us hope that our species will endure in whatever capacity. But the fact that this gameteen extraction program largely ran from the 1970s until, the naughties, maybe the tens, and then just stopped, seems to indicate that this was that point where we had a large enough population that's a lot to draw from, but also maybe a period of genetic diversity that we won't have. Right. Because the question of why, you know, in general,

yeah, we see a 60% decrease in sperm counts in the Western world. It's not just men. You know, We tend to focus on men's reproductivity, but women are having harder trouble, harder time reproducing as well. Interestingly, as we interject in fetrovertilization and help women that already shouldn't be able to reproduce, reproduce, same thing with men, that we're taking those genes that made it harder for them to reproduce and perpetuating those into the population, which further contributes to the problem. So it helps the individual, you know, and everybody has the right to have a child and feel

the love that comes with that, nobody should be robbed of that if we have the technology to help. Sure, yeah. But that's also helping make the problem worse in the future by fixing that problem for individuals. And we see this with everything. It's individual versus society with most things. It's sort of a cosmic tragedy of the common situation.

So, yeah, we are seeing more difficulty with reproduction. If that continues into the future, we may need to come back and get gametes that help diversify that gene pool, get over some of the problems that we're having, especially if there is some sort of bottleneck event. And if you have the ability to go back in time and get genes from any point in the past, those characteristics would be important. One thing I've also heard, and this makes sense in kind of a transhumanism capacity, is, and this is based on what people report, some people, not everybody, that they're coming back to a time that predates when we started to merge ourselves with. technology, which we're seemingly on the cusp of right now, I don't know what effect that might have. There's no way to know. But if you hear that enough and you kind of see how fast we've come to where we are and how fast we could be moving in that direction, it's definitely something to

consider. So as far as why, I think a big part of it is studying our own past as I would. And that's sort of a pretty intuitive one, you know. I think that's how we started the conversation. If I could get any UFO and go back in time, I would do these exact same things. Yeah. Even the fecal sample. Like, you can learn so much from studying people's fecal material, what they ate. I heard Reese Starby, a really hilarious guy, one of the funniest people in the world. He's got a podcast called The Cryptid Factor. And I heard him say on there once, why not just ask them? You know, why not just? ask them what they ate instead of sticking something in their butt and taking this people sample.

And yeah, I mean, that kind of makes sense. But a lot of these people are hysterical or put in a comatose state or asleep or whatever. So you don't have that ability to sit there and, you know, ask them what they had. And as my editor pointed out, I hadn't thought about this, but it made a lot of sense, is that you're not just learning about what they ate that day. You're learning about their entire gut microbiome, which as we're learning has a lot to do with not just physical health, but also mental health and anxiety and stress and things like that. So it could be that the anal probe part is an aspect of really that holistic understanding of humanity and human physiology and health and disease in the past.

The gamine extraction thing, obviously, that's so ubiquitous in all of these different cases. Then there's deeper elements of why there, too. Could be problems with reproduction in the future. Could be that this is a bottleneck coming, that we are. are going to have limited genome to draw from. And we're already becoming an inbred island on this little ball floating through space because we're all in our breeding. There's no new novel gene variants to come from other populations like they were in a pre-colonial state.

So aside from Anthony via Boas. Right. Well, yeah. I mean, for. Yeah. Antonio. Antonio V.S. Boas. And, you know, what's cool is there's a lot of other cases of reproduction, too.

where sometimes it's not so consensual. I forget who wrote the book. There's a book called Without Consent. He's a British author. I can picture his face, but I can't think of his name. So there are instances of actual violations of people's bodies and reproductive systems. And I list a couple cases in my second book, too.

Linda Jones being one of them. Peter Curry is an interesting one. Have you heard of his case? An Australian man. he was visited by gorgeous blonde women right every guy's dream except he was married and in bed with his wife or like she was or she was coming home or something right and he wakes up gorgeous blonde on top of him you know um giant eyes weird looking almost you know uncanny valley type like bizarre not quite human but still pretty hot and um she was taking advantage of him and he didn't know what was happening. And so he bit her breast because she was like she pushed, he was screaming. She pushed his face in, in her chest.

He bit her, I think, nipple and was like met with like this burning sensation in his mouth, like, like acid almost. And he's scared and he's screaming, what the heck are you doing here? They end up leaving, wife comes home, what's going on? and he's trying to explain what happened. Yeah, fair question. Around his genitals, around his penis. He takes this strand of hair, which was wrapped around, like, and it burned when he took it off. Yeah.

And he had this strand. He had it verified genetically. And it came back, the tests came back as it was human, but dated from thousands of years ago in Tibet, which made no sense. Yeah. And he has this sample. This is like a real sample that. he would have. And so again, we're looking at some past genetic pool perhaps or some time-traveling instance. And, you know, to your point, too, that why now, why here, why in this 40 to 50-year time

period, they were probably doing the same thing in these other periods, too. They're clearly being visited. Right. As indicated by these various forms of art. And yeah. So maybe they were collecting genes from those periods too. It's harder to represent that in a pictograph on a cave, I guess. We didn't have the squirt emoji and the cucumber or whatever, its egg plant, I guess. Though that would be hilarious if some archaeologists found that at some point. So, yeah, I mean, it's very possible that they are sampling from a lot of different places. And like I was talking about before, we do need to recognize when we have elements of technology in our own culture, today that we also see an association with these craft.

And one is, it's hard to talk about this without sounding kind of crude, but like an ejaculation machine, like these exist in Japan. When people go to give a semen sample, it's kind of awkward to get out the magazines, you know, but they just stick it in there and go home. Yeah. You know, and they seemingly have the same exact thing that people describe over and over again. Yeah. But yeah, in some cases, it's not.

Probably so much better. Probably. It's like instantaneous. Yeah, I'm sure the one in Japan still takes a while. I should do more research. The aliens have really optimized participant observation research to get back to you on that. But they do have sex with people, too, and I find that fascinating. Like Whitley describes a similar situation.

He had to confront his wife, Anne, and be like, hey, this thing happened. And, you know, he said she was very understanding. But he describes that in his book, Supernatural, that he co-authored with Jeff Kreppel. So, yeah, there are all of these cases. And I wonder so much. Like why? And it's got to just be a numbers thing. Because you can't have sex with everybody that male and female that you need to collect that material from.

Some people probably, obviously, would be very against it. Most of them. I wouldn't say most. Actually, I don't know. And Whitley's really interesting because when he had the fecal sample taken, he felt like he was raped. He used that word specifically. I had to bleep that for the algorithm or whatever. But it's true. But then he had this amazing sexual experience with this same female figure. And not just because of that, but all of these interactions, he completely changed the way he viewed them and welcomed that interaction. One of more, obviously, Antonio Villas Boas did too. So it gets really hard. We start talking about ethics and morality and good and evil. And some people's experiences are arguably bad, but then they become good. It's like an ontological show.

shock thing that then they eventually normalize and can wrap their head around and then they want more because it's the only exciting thing left in their life. Yeah. And nothing else can give them that level of questioning and excitement. So it's a really nuanced phenomenon. I gave a talk at the Eslin Institute in 2022. And one of the first questions was, so should we assume there's no IRB protocols for future research, which is an internal review board.

They look at all research and determine whether it will hold. harm people, especially subjugated groups, minorities, prisoners, children. And I was like, yeah, I don't know. That's a really good question. I mean, we don't question it when it comes to lower level. We started to. Well, yeah, we started to, but I mean, there's some, like, we, you know, we catch fish, tag them. Like, there's all this, like, that's exactly what that would feel like, you know, being taken out of the water as a pregnant manteree.

Yeah. And being in filming it and then probing it and tagging it. Like, what the heck is happening to me? They said that same thing. You felt like an animal on the Serengeti that was just picked up and dropped off. And then, yeah, how do you go back and tell all your rhino friends what just happened to you? Yeah. And, yeah, to communicate these things to a population who hasn't had that experience.

And we justify it through it's for their own good. Yeah, and for research. You know, we learn things. We're saving them. They're better off now. The whole ecosystem is better. And that's the thing. It gets into the weeds of what ethics is, what good and bad is.

And, you know, some of the most heinous crimes that have happened in human history have been the people who perpetrated those crimes thought they were doing a good thing. I don't think there is such a thing as good and evil, to be honest. I really think so much of it's just perception based on your view looking out from ego. Yeah, or how it affects you or your group, your clan, your tribe, whatever. Especially if you can peer into time. Yeah. That would inform you more than anyone should be able to know. So you could be able to actually, you know, objectively be like, no, this is good. Right. The downstream effects are good or bad. But again, it comes down to your intentions. You know, what do you see as a good result? You know, is that what everybody else wanted? How many

people died by you getting that good result. I don't know. And honestly, we could blow that up into the macrocosm of what we're talking about here with the focus of these visitors, whatever, whoever they are, getting to the why question again, is why do they tell us over and over to take care of this planet? Take care of the earth. Take care of the earth. John Mack saw that as the most common theme throughout. The school kids get told that aerial school number of cases. My second book I highlight, you know, what is that priority? If they are future humans, it makes sense that they're safeguarding the planet that they're set to inherit. Why would extraterrestrials care? But then again, it gets down to this question of what's good and bad. Is it better for the planet if we all nuke each other

and sure the planet's harmed for a little bit, nature suffers, but it bounces back with fewer of the humans that were destroying it in the first place. And it, you know, it's inevitable. You can't escape that question. I've been forced to consider it a lot because people, since I first started talking about this,

we're like, oh, this is great. Humans survive. Humans survive. We go on. And I don't know if it's necessarily that Rose tinted glasses-e, you know, if you can make that an adjective. I hope it is. I hope we figure shit out. And I don't know. I don't know if we will. So I consider both versions of that in the chapter, one of John Max's patients, Jerry was her name, who was shown those classic

pictures of the missiles and destruction. And what does that mean in the context of the block universe and the many world's interpretation. What does it mean in the context of branching timelines, which was the focus of my third book, Revelation? Because that theme is harder to explore in a scientific book than it is in a science fiction book. So I took that big question about a cataclysm and explored the different ways that would sort of manifest with future humans that both had the catastrophe. and didn't have the catastrophe, what it would mean for these bifurcating timelines, how the, you know, the looking glass plays into it and things like that. Because I feel like, especially now more than ever, we need to consider those types of questions. And doing it in a comical science fiction capacity was a good way to explore those things and still bring a lot of the science into it. Yeah, and still broaden your worldview. Yeah, and allow a different way of promulgating this idea.

You know, like the first book is pretty technical, very scientific. Second book is storytelling, basically, that brings the science in. The third book, Pure Entertainment. Yeah. The most common adjective I've heard is hilarious. People think it's funny, and it needs to be because it's eschatological as hell. You know, like it's about the end times and what that would look like for future humans. but also still brings the science in.

So it's for people that maybe want to learn about this idea, but don't really like science writing person. Yeah. And, you know, we can get into a tangent, but, you know, what part of that is actually potentially predictive? You know what I mean? Like when you tap into flow states, when writing creatively, what part of that is in the future memory?

You know how, you know how, Amazon as an AI summary. Yeah. People's comments. That's in the comments. That one of the most commonly described aspect of this book is people say it's channeled from the future. Yeah.

It's hilarious seeing that in there because, yeah, when you enter that flow state and just write, and that's where this book came from. Yeah. Like I sat down one afternoon, wrote out the whole storyline. But then from that point on, It was just flow state writing. I honestly don't feel like I wrote most of it, to be honest. Well, that's interesting.

You know, this brings me to something I wanted to talk to you about and something that you've talked about before. About an interaction you had at a conference a few years ago. Multiple interactions. Yes. That one tends to get focused on the most because other people were involved. Yes. Whether any of us wanted to be or not, we were. which tends to lend more credence to the reality of it.

Yes. Not just the other two people that were involved, but multiple people in the environment where it happened, witnessed it and saw the weirdness that was taking place. But that was one of four things that happened prior and multiple that happened since. It was kind of the one that was much more tangible for both me and others, but wasn't the only one by any means. Okay.

Can is there, can we get into this one and then move into the, because I'm really, really fascinated by this, Michael, and I think my audience would really appreciate running through this if that's something you're comfortable with. Oh, yeah, no, it's not, it's not something. I mean, it was hard to talk about it first. It's not hard to talk about, and it's not uncomfortable. It's just... High strangeness. Yeah, it's weird. You know, but we kind of already dipped our toe in that.

Dude, I'm all about it. Earlier, so it's basically revisiting the woo. I'm totally, and, you know, I mean, if we can't connect the woo to nuts and bolts, then what are we here for? That's a really good point. Yeah, because it's very much related. Yeah. And, you know, that's a good jumping off point because where this started for me,

where the high strangeness begin is with a UFO encounter. Not really all that impressive or cool. I didn't get to go into one and see Ryan Reynolds' butthole or anything. But there were five UFOs. I was kind of called out to look at them. And then they flew off at high speed. and then I went inside and didn't really think a lot about it. I thought it was Starlink actually.

And then I saw Starlink a lot and realized it was definitely not Starlink. When you say you were called out, what do you mean exactly? I felt I didn't hear any voices or anything. I just felt compelled to walk out my door and up the canyon hill. It's like a canyon wall, but it's not like a sheer cliff or anything. to a place I could see clearly where these five lights were, but it wasn't like, you know, I'd say compelled. It wasn't like I was instructed or anything,

but there's really no reason I would just walk out there. It was like 12.30 in the morning. It was at night. I saw these five UFOs. I think it was late 2021, maybe fall of 2021 when that happened. And then probably March of 2022, I, so actually, you know, this connects a couple different with things because you and I at breakfast were talking about out-of-body experiences. And ever since this balcony experience, again, I'm going to answer that question.

Sure. But there are some important bits of information that I think help contextualize that. prior to that day where I was fully out of my body is the first time I'd really experienced that since then it's become very common I can leave my body with the right protocols and I do it enough when I need to but I don't do it too much that it creates a separation between these two realities. I really do think where we go when we leave these bodies is sort of the same place that people come from where they return to, where they visit and near-death experiences, maybe where we all go every night when we dream, including squirrels and rabbits and everything.

I think it is this physical body that we exist in creates a filter that we need in place to exist in this reality. But that filter can be lowered in multiple different ways. Psychedelic drugs are a good example. But leaving your body is one of these experiences, and that's the first time that happened to me. And since then, like, once the separation occurs, you sort of have more control over it. I didn't. I was taken out of my body by these entities on that balcony that night and was able to see with epic clarity all of the things that were hidden to me as a reductionist materialist doing this research about UFOs that according to them the reason they showed up was because I was going to quit doing it you know sitting in a hot airplane for

three hours on the runway with no escape you know you live enough of those experiences you're like, oh, what am I doing? So I was, I was full on wanting to quit and doing any of these types of, these types of interviews, but not even that, just the whole thing, you know, we've all been there. I know you have to. Everybody I've talked to that research has this has always had at least one time where they're like, oh, my God, it's just, it's too much for whatever reason, you know. So not long after that UFO encounter, um, I had this experience where I felt like I was communicating with a light. And the reason I bring up the out-of-body thing is because there's these various protocols that I employ to achieve the out-of-body experience. And the common thread that I've noticed is light. And this was my first interaction with light. You know, I remember as a kid, I was raised to like, you know, divert thine eyes, don't look at the light, but also are supposed to be seeking the light and seeking enlightenment. And in the beginning there was light. Like clearly light, to circle back to the earlier part of our conversation, I think it's kind of fundamental to everything. I think consciousness exists in light or light is consciousness somehow. And this physical world grows out of that. It would probably be much easier if I just told you about these things and stopped trying to interject my own analysis.

So Cliff Notes version, I saw the five UFOs. I had this telepathic interaction with these entities. I don't know what they are. I didn't know what they were then. I still don't know what they are. Where did that happen? That happened in my front yard. Apparently a lot of these things are related to where I live.

but it's a bright light in my neighbor's yard, like a security light. And I was just out, I think I was getting ready for a ski trip or something. It was February or March, but it was right before I was going to this conference at Rice University. And it was, you know, telepathic conversation. I was having an actual conversation. and then afterwards was like, no, I wasn't having a conversation. So there was a light present. You were observing a light.

I just looked at it. You just looked at it. I looked directly into that light and just stared at it for a little bit. And you felt a telepathic exchange? And heard words. You heard words, like a language. It was back and forth. Male or female?

Hard to tell? Yeah. Okay. That's a good question. I don't think I can say, to be honest. Okay. And what exactly was exchanged? It was mostly about my anxieties.

This was right before I was wanting to quit everything, but it was that same year. Sure. And a lot of it was anxieties, not just about traveling, but leaving my family and, you know, going to do all of these things that take me away from them and my job. And like just the anxiety associated with safety, well-being, being present for my children, not wanting to be gone so much. Because I was gone a lot. I had to be. You know, I felt like I had to be to do all of these things. So it was kind of like a cry for help, like a seeking reassurance.

That reassurance was given to me in this conversation. Problem was the next day, I just assumed I made it all up in my head, which naturally people would. telepathy is not real. You know, I was, I was sort of starting to, to move away from, actually, later that same summer in July of 2022, I gave a talk at Eslin and opened my talk with how my name's Mike. I'm a recovering materialist. Because at the Eslin Institute, very few materialistic people there, you know, with that mentality. But I was already kind of starting to move in that direction. And the reason I'm harping on this light in that experience for so long is because what I found later, and we can get into this if you want, is light seems to be at the root of all of it. And I don't think just for me personally, like if you look back at a lot of descriptions of sort of really intense events, interactions, light seems to be involved.

You know, light seems to be involved in this UFO thing too in the way they manipulate time and space. Like, light, a photon is timeless entity. Eric Wargo talks about how, you know, in the Danken experiment, the delayed choice, Wheeler's delayed choice experiment, the photon, the electron, it doesn't seem to care whether you open or close that slit before or after. It's timeless. And I think, you know, we, God, I don't know, it's so hard to, like, give this holistic description of what happened because it all seems to be related to all of it in different ways. And I'm just recently starting to see the entire picture more clearly over the last six months. But then I try to articulate and it sounds like absolute gibberish. So I apologize.

I apologize to you. I apologize to your viewers. It sounds fine. No need to apologize. I will try to keep a train of thought, at least to have a timeline. Sure. Because I feel like that would be useful. And if you want, just cut it right here.

I'm not going to cut anything. Stick it back there so at least people can follow what the hell I'm saying. They're following just fine. Saw the five UFOs, late 2021, early 2022. But it was warm. I remember it being warm. I had a glass of whiskey looking up. It was probably fall time.

So fall of 21. February or March of 22, right before the opening of the Archives of the Impossible Conference at Rice, I had this telepathic interaction with this light. I went to Rice, amazing experience, went to Esselin that summer, and then that fall of 2022 is when I gave a talk at the International UFO Congress in Mesa, Arizona. It's called All Phoenix because I don't know the suburbs that well. And yeah, in that particular instance, I was taken up to a room, taken to a balcony, a stranger comes out, puts his chair right up against mine, face to face, slides his leg between my legs. Again, complete stranger, and then tells me, we know you've been thinking about quitting lately, and we'd prefer you not do that, which, as I mentioned earlier,

was something I had wanted to do. Problem is I didn't tell anybody that. That was just a thought in my head when I was washing dishes about two weeks before this conference. I was just standing there as like, I'm done. It's just too much. I need to be home. I need to be with my family.

I'm sick of all of the pains of traveling and preparing talks and doing these talks. So I just decided I would do this conference and dip out. So to have a complete stranger come up and tell me that, shook me to my core, obviously. You know, like, that's not, like, how could you know that? And this is where it's really important to stress this. And I haven't done this enough.

And I apologize for people. Well, I also still don't know what's going on. But I didn't know the first time I started talking about this with Jesse, Jesse Michaels, who that individual was. I had no way of knowing. It was a complete stranger to me. But I have learned things since. that allow me to frame that conversation more,

and not just because I've gotten to know that individual, but because of a number of other things that have continued to happen with the same entities that were speaking through this individual that night. So this individual was channeled. There was a channeled entity coming through this individual who you didn't know prior, who was a complete stranger to you, who you now have come to know the body of the,

of the entity in which it inhabited the person. You know this person now. Yeah. And he doesn't like the word channel. Okay. I don't either, but I don't. We run into so many limitations with our language. Yeah.

There's one I've seen. But yeah, that's essentially what was happening. And not just something, Chris. This is the important part. It was the same entities that I was talking to in the life. for that Rice University conference and whom I have had multiple interactions with since. That one was definitely the most impactful because it was an intervention, not just because I wanted to quit.

They very politely asked me not to. That was, yeah, that was the very first thing is, We know you've been thinking about quitting lately. We'd prefer you not do that yet. So they politely asked me to not do this thing that I had only thought in my mind while washing dishes. I wasn't looking at that light that time. I was just minding my own business washing my dishes. But they referenced that thought specifically through this individual.

The individual was, yes, a conduit of sorts. Sure. I think it's hard because it takes some of the agency away. Like, he is a person. Yeah. He was there. Heidi was a person, she was there, but there was some sort of interaction taking place with a high intelligence that has the ability to speak through other individuals and through light. And it was the same ones. And I know that because they referenced that conversation we had early in March before I went to that conference. That's how I know it was the same entities. And I've come to realize that it's always these same entities. Okay. So forgive me for wanting to be hyper-granular on this, but it is something that I am like, and I'm sure I'm not alone. It's very fascinating. So these individuals, you got approached by this one individual, but there was a second individual that was there as well. You referenced Heidi? Well, Heidi was the one that took me up there in the first place. She took you up to the balcony specifically to meet this gentleman?

She knew that at the time. She knew that at the time. Well, no, that's where it gets tricky. Was she compelled just like you were to walk outside and look at those UFOs? Or was kind of. She was involved in the same sort of being swallowed up, I guess, by these entities. I found that there's, and actually I think they wrote a book recently describing their, interaction. Their side of the story? I mean, side of the story makes it sound like, you know,

we have different sides of the story. No, but we're all involved in the same thing. Their perspective. Yeah. Of what was happening. Um, she, she asked me to write a forward to it at a time that I was completely swamped with things. So I haven't, I haven't read it yet. But, um, part of me doesn't want to, I guess, because all I know is my perception. All they know is their perception. And even though we all enveloped by these same entities working for the same purpose. Yeah, we have different, not just experiences, but levels of understanding of the experience too. Because Heidi doesn't, didn't remember, maybe she has sense. But I reached out to her a year after. It took me a year

to even process this stuff to be able to reach out because it scared the shit out of me. And I started asking our question prior to going to talk to Jesse about this because I knew he would want to. And I actually happened to tell him about it only a month or two after it happened when I was still just losing my mind. And I think it kind of stuck with him. So when I went back almost a year later, I kind of had the sense he would want to talk about it. So I reached out to her and she was like, you know, I know something really weird happened that night, but I can't answer your question so I don't remember those details. My God. So she was clearly coerced. even before to take me up there.

Yeah. And then kept saying, well, we can't go down yet. My friend Eric wants to talk to you. So, yeah, this is where it gets really interesting. When we're talking about individual cogent people with self-autonomy, sort of being brought into the situation to mini-abduct me, to politely ask me not to quit this thing, and then we can get into all the other things that happened too.

but it's really interesting in the context of like it was like it was orchestrated it was orchestrated yeah and it started with her taking me up to this this room that she had a key to is the place where the um the party was sort of uh like a meet and greet you know when speakers do a thing go meet them or whatever which i was already super late to because i took a three hour nap before this thing i don't take naps ever but i was like put to sleep even prior to all of these things i It was almost like they were clearing everything out because some shit was about to get put in there, which it was. So I was already late to this thing. I go down. She takes me back up only an hour or two later. I'd have one, maybe two beers. So alcohol, drugs, not in the equation. It sucks. We even have to give that caveat. But it is important, apparently. And I guess I could see why. It takes me back up. Knows he's coming for this purpose, I assume, because. she brought me there and wouldn't let me leave. And then, yeah, all the things that happened after that were clearly a part of this. And it was apparent that both needed to be present. She was very much involved in it. It was kind of like a shared mind space where I know I was elevated out of my body.

I was like up here. And there was a clarity that came with that, you know, the classic time space thing, but also just instant communication. It turned all telepathic at some point, but she was just to my left, and he was in front of me. And then eventually, you know, we had a question-answer session.

Cool. I want to take a, I want to like slow things down here a little bit, if you don't mind. You had a, so he's here, he pulls you in at this point. He pulls himself in. Okay.

I was just sitting here like this. Yeah. And all of a sudden, this stranger. comes to you, Heidi is beside you on your left. And he tells you, we know you want to quit. Kindly ask that you not quit. Very kindly. All of it was very polite. You said you had a question and answer session. What type of questions and what type of answers and how were they given? Yeah. Well, this part was all still vocalized speech.

Verbal speech. Okay. As in who are you? Like, is, Is that the type of quote? Like, what am I doing here? Or is the very first question. Yeah. After how the hell do you know that? My next question, yeah.

Well, that's kind of wrapped up into it. How do you know that? And they said, again, they, I feel like it wasn't an individual. That's why it's hard to answer your male or female question, too. That's fine. Because it was like, I don't know, a more holistic, like, social mind complex to use the raw terminology. That's what it felt like. Yeah.

Like not one individual, not male or female. Collective, some type of collective consciousness that was. Yeah. Yeah. That clearly has some amazing and impressive abilities to manipulate space time, not just in that moment. But again, think about it. Like, she brought me up there. Yeah.

Brought this other individual there. So we're all three collectively involved in this thing. Like that takes some manipulation, let alone the manipulation of a mouth. to do this, the eyes to lock in. She had her hand on my shoulder for most of the time. I assume that was involved in some kind of energy exchange thing. I don't know. But yeah, my first question was, how could you know that? They said through him, once you know who we are, you'll know how we know that. And my next question was future humans, because that's all I could think. Like, well, why would you give a shit if I'm doing this or not? All I'm doing is talking about future humans. So future

You said that a lot? Yeah. Okay. Oh, no, no, that actually did say in my head. Yeah, I did say that in my head. And they responded instantly. No, they didn't. You're right.

I thought future humans. That was the first instance of telepathy. Yeah. And I'd never, other than the light thing, I'd never had like a, yeah, with another human. Yeah. Yeah, no, so. So you said future humans in your mind?

Yeah, but they didn't answer the question. They didn't say yes. And I always am quick to point that out because that wasn't confirmed, you know. And it's also important to point out there were no UFOs involved. No. There were no big-headed aliens. It's a person, just like you or me. Sure.

Clearly not. And Heidi's not either. Yeah. I hope people, they have had to. some amazing experiences that I think play into all of this, too. But yeah, I asked future humans. I don't remember exactly what they said afterwards. This was a few years ago now.

But I do remember being allowed to ask a lot of questions because they said, do you have any questions for us? Was there any question specifically that you recall that was like just, whoa, I can't believe they allowed me to ask this question or the answer this? Well, that's what sucks about it, is that. I kind of squandered some opportunities to be. In hindsight, but you have to recognize that my mind in that moment

scattered all over the place. I'm like, what's happening? Is this real? How do they know this? What? And so I did ask a few questions. That's how I know that that conversation with the light before Rice was the same entities

because I asked the same question I asked of that light. And they specifically said, we already talked about that before you went to rice. That's what the answer was. That was the exact answer verbatim. Verbaly. Whoa. Verbly.

So that, that confirmed to me and was another instance of me being like, you know, there were like a lot of sort of waking up things throughout this. Like, well, obviously the big one, how could you know that? There was a thought in my head. Why are you so close to me was something else that kind of made me like, like what's happening. But yeah, when they specifically reference. that conversation that I had already written off as being a figment of my imagination, that made

that whole thing real and also brought an element of recognition and kind of safety and comfort to it. Like, oh, okay, we've already done this. That was real. And from that point on, honestly, there was like this trajectory of it becoming normal and uncomfortable and oh shit I already know these entities whatever they are we've been doing this together already for a long time and I'm acting like a little bitch wanting to quit and oh my life's so hard and I have to sit in airplanes when it's too hot sometimes like I started to

have this sense of shit that's right I agreed to do this why am I complaining? and threatening to quit. It was like, we started to talk about this earlier, but kind of pre-incarnate remembering. So that was one of the questions. The other one I've never told anybody because it was kind of embarrassing. But I figure I'm already making a mess of this question

and answer session anyway. So maybe some of your viewers will think it's comical because I did. But I asked him about like the safety of myself and my family and like, will they be okay? That was the main point based on the anxiety I was having before I went to Rice. Earlier that day, I met with a guy that was, his life was saved by future humans that he interacts with and has for decades. So I asked a question about my health. And this is the one I've never told anybody because their answer was instantaneous.

hilarious. I was like, you know, so, so do I have any health problems or anything? And they said, well, you could stand to party a little less hard, just like off the cuff. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's true. Because I was, you know, definitely, um, enjoying the social aspects of, of camaraderie and, and whatnot. Um, but they knew that, like, it was just a matter of fact for them. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That. Definitely stand a party a little less harm. So in addition to knowing my thoughts, they also knew your history and potentially future. Whoa.

You know, like, take it easy. You know, they didn't tell me I have a problem with my health right now. That was like some indication of a path or a direction. Yeah. And I took it quite seriously. Like I cut back on everything after that. I do still enjoy a beer or a sculpture or whiskey. but definitely not like I was.

But yeah, at some point, you know, the conversation did shift from being vocalized to telepathic. I don't really know exactly when that happened. And already, like after a few years, I feel like I'm forgetting little details. Like when you asked if they said that, or if I said that vocally about how do you know that? And I said future humans, like that was the first instance. of telepathy in this conversation. Fortunately, I wrote all of this down in addition to all of the other weird shit.

That's been happening since. Because I feel like that's, like we were talking about earlier, the way we remember things is very subject to, it's subjective, obviously, but also subject to other influences. So I do have a record of like the way all of these things took place, even though that in itself is probably, you know, slightly different and obviously different for Eric and Heidi too for the same reasons and three

women came out into the balcony at one point and were sort of made to turn and walk back inside. What do you mean made to turn? The, the, they clearly weren't just controlling us three, but these three women came out because there were people inside watching and they were concerned about me. I knew them, some of them. I'm pretty sure I know who all of them are now. I wouldn't try to bring them into this because I already feel bad that Eric and IDF to be a part of this, even though they were and they are, and it's sort of inescapable for all of us.

But there was some conversation taking place, like what the fuck's going on? If you think about objectively, like there's a dude here, I'm just sitting here, and there's a woman on my left with their hand on my shoulder. Just imagine looking out from the glass at that. of us, at this point they came out, none of us were moving our mouths. And you're just sitting there looking at each other. My God. This far away.

So, and I did talk to one of the people who was also inside a male who didn't come out, but the three women came out. And I remember I was locked in. By this point, you know, we'd already been speaking telepathically for a while. It was really hard for me to move my head. Like I could move my eyes, but not really my head. And I do remember he turned and said, can you close the door? Like, that's all I remember.

And all three of them turned at the exact same time, walked back inside, closed the door. Nobody came out the whole rest of the time that this is taking place. And by the time it was over, there were probably 15 to 20 people inside. Like, we were out there. I don't know exactly how long because they eventually put me into a sort of trance where my eyes were open. Everything was black, so I couldn't see. It went black? Yeah, and they told me that would happen.

They very politely asked, could we do this? this is what will happen. We need to put three things in your brain. You won't have access to the information. But the way this will happen is that you'll still have your eyes open, but everything will go black from top to bottom. And then you'll start to see and feel information. That is exactly what happened. I was clearly in some sort of deep trance state because I don't know how much time passed.

But in that time, nobody else came out. And when I went in, there were way more people. people in that room than there were before. So just real quick, because this is an important part of the account, is I did see the information. It did go in my brain, like a freaking fire hose. And when it was over, I felt like my head was very heavy. I could barely even lift it. And I don't have conscious access to that information. But importantly, they very politely asked about each of these things and I agreed to it because I remembered I was allowed to remember I was allowed to look back across the river of forgetting and remember that I had already agreed to this and all of it was

so polite and so loving I heard I heard some misinformed statements made on I think Sean Ryan or something where somebody was talking about how it's like it's brain rape you know telepathy if you come up and you talk to somebody in their brains, violating them, and that's their space, and you shouldn't be in there. This wasn't like that. And a lot of these instances aren't. Some people do have that. There were a number of people at the Seoul Conference, the first one, for instance, who claim to have been approached by these really shady characters who are getting into their minds and violating their mind space and trying to extract information and put information in. I've heard that from three different people. So clearly there are instances where that

happens, this was not the case for me. This was very much interaction. Very consensual. A what? Very consensual. Extremely. Yeah. Everything was like, are you okay with this? Do we have your permission to do this? And by the time that more overt thing was happening where the flood of information was coming into my mind, I remembered. I was allowed to remember. I didn't have, there was a level of trust that was like shit, of course. Why are we even having this conversation? But they couldn't just come up and do that.

There was this whole process that started with this complete stranger coming up, breaking me down with the We Know Your Thoughts thing and then sort of developing a rapport and that whole time, I'm just kind of like lifting up. And then apparently,

it'd be so cool to see like the soul body, you know, if we could visualize that or use like, you know, some, some sort of thermographic technology. Because I, there was a point where I'm just here, you know, like the crown chakra or whatever it says. And that's when our mouth stopped moving. And we all just hive mind communication. Do you remember any of the specific communication that you were experiencing during that time and how long roughly I know you probably have like a a different sort of frame of reference for time but how long do you think with everything that was happening around you was that telepathic communication going on for uh I mean yeah objectively

objectively I have no idea yeah um so Subjectively, I also have no idea, but based on, I would guess maybe 15 to 30 minutes. That's an awful long time to just sit in front of someone. I don't know. It's like, you know, you fall asleep. Sure. You're in that same sort of deep trance state. You wake up.

It can feel like hours past and you're all to sleep for 10 minutes, you know? So I don't know. I'm only basing that on how many people were in that room. But again, by the time before they blacked my eyes out, I could only see out of my peripheral vision. Anyway, so that's not a great metric to use. But by the time I was released from that, the room was full of people. And that's my only gauge for how much time passed. All time disappeared.

What was the reaction to, like afterwards, I know that you said that you've communicated with some people that were there who remained nameless. but what was some of their reactions to that post it happening and you now, you know, coming to terms with what happened? Did anybody ever say to you like, dude, that was so wild watching you just sit there? Like, what was going, like, was there confusion at all? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know if I've mentioned this or not. But, yeah, one of the individuals I've talked to about it who was watching from the inside and was with the three women who came out and went right back in. He told me that they were concerned.

They were looking and were concerned, but he says he couldn't really remember faces. Like he remembered seeing us, but not really like people, you know? Like, it's like it's fuzzy in his mind. And he was telling me that he was actually at that first soul conference. And that event took place right after I first started talking about this. first time I could talk about it

because it freaks me the fuck out for a year with Jesse and I remember him asking another individual there I don't think you would care if I use his name but yes Jeff Kreppel like is that normal? Like shouldn't like can they manipulate

everybody's mind to the extent that I can't like really frame that situation physically with like faces and stuff? He's like yeah that's extremely common. Wow. And Jeff's probably one of the best people you could ask that question to in the first

place because he's seen and read and heard it all. He's a living legend in my opinion. I have tried to find that I thought one of the people, one of the women that came out, I thought I knew who that was and it wasn't her. And then there was another woman, too, when I walked in that was one of the ones on the balcony. And I don't know this because I saw her face. I just remembered her presence. But she put her hand on my arm and said, are you okay?

And I just went, uh-huh, uh-huh. And I couldn't even lift my head. It felt so, so heavy. But she, I recognized her presence from out there because, and this, there's ripple effects that came out from this like crazy. I had weird sigh abilities for about six months after this event. That's why I'm saying like there's a lot of things that happened, but this one rippled out. Yeah, that was almost a catalyst in some sense.

Huge catalyst. Absolutely huge catalyst. Like I wouldn't have started looking into channeled material or like, you know, really spiritual stuff that I thought was always just so woo if this hadn't happened to me. If I hadn't experienced this myself. And then speaking of Jeff Crapel, he wrote a book. called the flip, which is about scientists mostly and others too, but mostly scientists who have this extremely limited reductionist view of reality and then have an experience and flip and gives a number of cases of really important scientific discoveries coming from these types of

experiences and interactions. I had already been halfway through this somersault before this happened. I had been flipping. I'd been realizing that there's a lot more to this physical reality than what I was aware previously, but that completed the somersault and kept me spinning for a while. Like there were a number of experiences that followed that, that were all related

and clearly originated from that point that have kind of tapered off but are still um, affecting me in different ways. I, I think it was partly, yeah, partly just a catalyst as far as reframing reality,

but it also clearly did something that made other sci abilities heightened and other ways of experiencing things easy that weren't outside of that block of time. That sounds, that's actually pretty common, I think as well, and I've spoken to. some experiences as well. It's so that after their interactions with entities, they do experience a heightened extra sensory perception. Yeah, that's for sure. Okay. So Eric and Heidi, you get this download.

You feel this download. You're having this telepathic communication on this balcony. People are observing this. You're now alone. You've finished this. Your vision comes back, I assume. Yeah, just revert. What happened?

It came from bottom to top. Okay. And now I look indirectly. At any point, did Eric realize what was going on? Or was, was the entity still present? Was it ever present? Did it go away? Yeah, no, they, I think they were present from my experience and my memory.

And I do, like, it's getting to the point where I don't remember every single thing exactly like I did even last year. But I was consciously aware of everything. until the download or whatever. Yeah, until the curtain came down. Uh-huh. And then I was aware of what was happening. I couldn't see, but I felt the energy and the information. I could see the pictures as they were coming.

Really? Really, really fast, yeah. Really? And I could see colors. Do you remember anything at all? Any picture? Any, like, is one, but it's real fuzzy and stupid. But I did have conscious awareness as the information is coming through.

And I only know that because I, well, I remember knowing, but then I also remember Heidi from time to time as them. Like, again, it's hard using their names. I totally get it. It's hard to even explain all of this. But they, through her, would occasionally say, did you get that? Did you get that?

So I was aware of what it was and I could sense the concepts and everything related to it. It wasn't just words. It was like standard. It was a package. Yeah. Like a package information coming through so fucking fast. It was. Yeah.

But I could see it in that moment and understand it conceptually. And they would say, did you get that? Did you get that? And it's just streaming from here and she's here monitoring it. She's seeing what I'm seeing, feeling what I'm feeling, experiencing what I'm experiencing, and asking, did I file that away? Did I understand that before it's filed away?

Because once it was filed away, everything's gone. To answer your question, the only little glimpse I have is of a brown building. That's all I remember. Okay. There's nothing. Yeah. They did a hell of a job. Also, speaking of, it amazes me.

You know, not just that they could bring these two people together and me. I'm kind of a wiry dude. But, like, bring all three of us together for this thing in the sequestered space at a big conference with a lot of people. Very populated. But then also put things in my brain that I don't have access to. Like, how do you do that? You know, that's, that's on top of everything else. Like, that just amazes me.

It's apparently time release because they said at some point, I will know what it is. It's being put away, which again indicates some sort of future knowledge that these things, we want to put them in your brain for some future time or times. Three things. Three things, specifically. That's what they said. Do you think one of those things was perhaps the following book that you wrote? Because you said that it did come from a place where you didn't feel like you wrote it? Maybe I was working on the book at that time.

That's possible. I don't know. And that's the problem is I can't ever know. Do you think you will know? when that time comes? I don't know, man. Yeah. It's so hard.

Like, if I don't know what it is, can't I ever know when it comes out? Mm. Unless the timestamp is, like, related to something so. Yeah. Just bizarre. Bizar. Bizar or foundational or impactful. Or if it does have, like, a little trigger, like, oh.

Yeah. Those, those, I don't know. Or does it come from, like, creative inspiration, like kind of like a muse or like, uh, yeah, in some form. And there was no context on that. There was, it was only these three things for some future time or times. Are you okay with this? So I want to go through now that this is done, I want to loop back to Eric and Heidi afterwards. Um, but for now, I would love to just, uh, get the rest of what happens here. You get up. You say, well, thank you for the download. I don't say. You know, say.

anything. I was just in a complete and utter days. Just in a days. What would you compare that days to? Like being like sleepwalking or like being like on some type of drug or like what would that days be akin to? I mean like we were talking about earlier the fasting. You know like once you approach the 42 hour mark on a fast. Almost delirious. Delirious and just heavy. My head felt so heavy. You need to go lie down. I did, and that's what I did. Yeah, so I walked through what now is a busy room of people. I walk by a woman, hand on the arm, are you okay? Uh-huh. Walk out the door. Fortunately, my room was on the same floor, just down a little bit. Apparently, I didn't remember this consciously, because after the mind fuck, things did get fuzzy. Before that, crystal clear. I remembered everything. You had a nap, too. Perfectly. The nap probably did have something to do with that, honestly.

But, I mean, you were, you were like awake. You weren't in a state where you were tired. Oh, no, not at a drink or two and, like, everything was fine. Yeah, no, I was, I was quite cognitively aware of everything. But apparently I walked out, and I did remember this after they said it, but I walked out in the two conference organizers were coming into that room as I was leaving, and they just assumed I was, like, drunk or something. And it was still pretty early.

Again, I don't know what time it was. But I guess I looked at them and said, I think someone was in my mind. And then just kind of walked past them and went and laid down. But I did meet up with them in Phoenix about a year and a half later and told them about this, you know, start to finish. And Alejandro knew something weird had happened because I guess Heidi had told him something weird had happened, even though she didn't really fully understand what. And the next morning on Sunday, he was like, so something crazy went down last night. I was just like, oh, really? I was like, yeah, yeah.

Like, I couldn't talk about it. It was just so overwhelming. It terrified you. It terrified me. I mean, it didn't. It didn't. It was like, I mean, it is jarring. The event didn't terrify me, but having this new, it was ontological shock.

Dude, having this new perspective opened up that I didn't know existed or that these things can exist. It's a terrifying thing. I'll tell you. Like, that's, that's. I don't know how anyone should react to something like that. I mean, that seems to me so foreign and it's scary. It's a scary, scary ordeal. Yeah, maybe I've just been downplaying that part of it,

but I do remember walking out. So, yeah, I keep skipping to these different places. That's fine. But I did lay down, feet still on the floor, clothes still on, and just slept in that position for whatever. think was 12 to 13 hours. Got up and then this is the weird part too that I don't fully understand, but I started crying uncontrollably.

Like I just couldn't not cry. Texted my wife like something weird happened. Can't stop crime. And then finally got it together like enough because I was starving. I was really hungry. And I went to the elevator and right in front of this elevator you can see the balcony where it happened. And I do think maybe I was a little scared because I saw the chairs sitting there.

There was like a panic moment. Yeah. Like, oh, fuck. Flashback. That was all real. Like that happened. And, yeah. And then I went to this restaurant.

Unfortunately, got seated right at the front for like the peak Sunday after church crowd. And I'm losing my fucking mind. And I'm just sitting there trying to eat this food as fast as possible. Walk back still can't stop crime. I went to take a book to my friend who was in the lobby. I think he was working the registration table or something. And as I'm doing that, this Eric guy, who again, I don't know what he is or who he is at that time, comes walking through the same lobby, the same main entrance to this conference, past that table, John Dover, I was going to see,

and puts his hand on my shoulder and says, are you okay? and I was still just like, what the fuck is happening? And just kind of went, uh-huh, that's all I could do. Like, about any of this. Like, I could only say, uh-huh, because I wasn't okay, you know? Like, I knew something weird had happened. And Eric knew as well, obviously. Yeah, yeah.

Because people probably told him too, what was that? Well, yeah, but again, was he Eric at that moment? Right, where he said, are you okay, you mean? And how did he know? if I was going to be in that exact spot to intercept me. It almost felt like they came back. I don't know, just to check up on you. And to alleviate a lot of the problems I was having.

I think they realized that they kind of messed me up a little more than they had anticipated. And I still had to be on a panel a couple hours later with a bunch of people. I still had to go to the wrap-up banquet that night, like an award ceremony thing. I wasn't. I wasn't doing very well. I said, uh-huh, but I wasn't. And I know that because of the uncontrollable crying, the panic response I had when I saw the chairs on the balcony, the complete disconnect with my fellow humans as I was sitting there trying to scarf down food on a Sunday afternoon. So it wasn't just, are you okay? Hey, everything's going to be fine. They did something in that moment to help me get. through the rest of that day. That's why he put his hand on your shoulder, potentially. It must have been. Must have been something.

Physical contact was an important part of this. Yeah, in proximity. It started with that. It started with that, like just leg, leg, leg, face, eyes. I think he had his hand on my leg at one point as well. Heidi's hand was on my shoulder. There was some sort of energy exchange happening beyond just what they were shooting in my face.

So, okay, the uncontrollable crying thing is really interesting too because it, you know, as someone, when I was deep into like meditation, still am, but there was a point during the beginning where I'd hit something. And it happened to me. I had like this emotional release. I didn't know why. I didn't know what was going on. I was in a state of like just, I guess, it felt like gratitude for me. Like I felt like this like crazy gratitude. Like I had to cry it out.

But there was no, I had nothing, I had no thoughts in my mind, you know, that would, that would make that happen. But, um, so I can, you didn't feel sad or anything. No. No, I didn't either. No. There wasn't a sense of like sad or like, like, obviously fear was an underlying part, but I, that's not why I was crying. Yeah. It was like a release, like a, almost like a pressure valve for me.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's what it was for me too. Yeah, like, like, oh, I felt, you know, I needed that sort of release. That's a really good way of putting it. That's what it felt like, too. You know, like you had too much bottled up for that physical body to really deal with in that instance,

and you had to have this sort of emotional release. Yeah. No, that's a really good description. Another example of this, I was elk hunting with a buddy of mine from Bozeman and tell him about this thing. We had some time because there were an elk where we went, so we just shot the shit. And he was like, you know what? I was in India once and I went and visited this guru and I was walking up and I just heard her talking in my mind. And I was like, well, what'd she say?

And he like recounted what she said and how like it was impactful. And he said that he went down to this river and sat by the river and just cried for like an hour. But he said the same thing. It wasn't like what was said or anything. It just triggered that sort of emotional response in him too. doing this post-telepathy interaction. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it was the same thing for him too,

like some sort of valve release. Yeah, so just to, maybe that's the body's physiological way of coping with like ontological shock as well. Yeah, because that was his first and only telepathic experience. Yeah, and it, you know, it's easy to say, oh, well, it messed you up and you were just, you know,

overwhelmed, but it just didn't. feel like that, you know, but I also couldn't stop. Yeah. Until they brought him back or he came back. Whoever that happened. You weren't okay until then? No. Like, I don't think I could have finished that conference.

And I try to tell somebody about it, too. And it, for quite some time, actually, like the first couple months when I would tell people about this, they would get the same look on their face, just like this dead, blank stare. and I would love to know why each one of them had the exact same look, regardless of who it was. It was just like, and you know, it's one thing, because they were all very different people. Like, it was two fellow speakers at this conference. We were just standing next to this table and I was like, you know, the craziest fucking thing happened last night. I'm telling them.

And both of them had this completely dead look and then just turned and walked away. Wow. Like I don't. Whoa. So like the event. Like you said, like rippled onto others. Like somehow the collective consciousness was like tapped into at that event through people and that there was this, you know, perhaps this like this firewall or something. I like that interpretation.

But I thought there's being dicks. But also I know one of them. I consider him a friend. Yeah. And the other one I know pretty well too. It didn't seem like a normal response to that. There wasn't a follow-up question. there wasn't even like a whoa that's crazy especially at a conference boom you would definitely

have a follow-up question you would think so at a that's the place like that where you would have a follow-up question like yeah oh wait what what what else did they say how this nothing just completely blank face turned and just walked away I was like what a bunch of dicks oh my god and that probably doesn't help the the whole fear fig that's that's happening to you no I mean by that time it was like because of the lobby interaction, which was clearly an intervention. It was clearly, I mean, the whole thing was an intervention. And I often wonder, like, how much of it was, please don't quit doing this, like, you were thinking about versus the three things we need to put in your brain.

Like, was that a follow-up thing? Oh, like, well, we're here. Can we shoot this stuff into your brain? Or was the, we know you're going to quit sort of a key to the door. To allow you in? Yeah, to, like, shock me to my core, you know, which one was the actual reason for them being there? Okay. Did you, okay, how long after this happened did you end up speaking to Heidi and Eric? You said a year

with Heidi or was there any interaction before that? No, no, no, at all. I kind of just wanted, I was having trouble processing it. I reached out to some people, that I trust who I knew could maybe help. He wouldn't mind me saying because he's already said it on his podcast. But Darren King, somewhat synchronistically, I happen to be listening to his podcast. He's got the Liminal Frames one, but also one called Point of Convergence,

which he happened to be describing some experiences he had. And I kind of knew him enough to reach out and be like, Hey man, you know, something really weird happened to me. I really need somebody to talk to about it because I don't know what to do with it. And so we got on a Zoom. I told him the whole thing pretty soon after it happened, like maybe a month or so after it happened. Also reached out to my friend, Dr. Hussein Ali Agrama, he's an anthropology professor at University of Chicago, who I also know in trust has had a lot of, you know, he's researched a lot of things. So I told him, but really just those two people and my wife, obviously, you know,

any relationship you have people that kind of help with the foundation that we all stand on. She's obviously one of those people. But otherwise, it was kind of hard to touch and deal with, especially because there were so many little ripple effects and other weird things that were happening. two of which were almost identical to that balcony experience, but without the extra people. So take it or leave it. I think one of the reasons why it happened the way it did is because there were others involved. So it lends more credence to it's more verifiable. Even though there were only the three of us who were actually engaged in the interaction,

there were other people who were tangentially related, who seemingly had some sort of relationship. to it as well. But otherwise, yeah, it was pretty hard for me to actually, like, to contact Heidi. I didn't know who or what Eric was. I assumed he was a future human. And who is Eric? He's, I don't know how to answer that question. He's a person.

What does he do? I actually don't know. And he's, and what's his relationship to Heidi? Do you know? Well, that's what's funny about it, too, is that they had never met face-to-face before. They knew of each other and were, like, planning on getting together at this conference. But that was their first face-to-face meeting. I know.

It's kind of funny, isn't it? That's a wild way. Yeah. Oh, my God, dude. Yeah. But they've both had amazing transformational experiences, like a lot of people in the space. there's a certain threshold where you're sort of activated and then things can progressively get weirder and weirder. I hate that word because there's a value judgment associated with it, but it is almost like building a muscle, you know?

And for me, that experience on the balcony really made me work those muscles. But now I have sort of the ability to still use that muscle in similar and different ways. And they clearly do too. They've both had experience. I don't like talking for other people about, you know, when you ask who is Eric, he is an entity unto himself who has, you know, all of these different experiences and life experiences. I can say that he helps a lot of people. I think that's an important characteristic that he would agree is a defining characteristic. Like, are they, were they in now knowing them to your knowledge as shook by this event as you were?

I don't know. That's a great question. Because when this was over for me, the curtain went back up. I stood up, completely dazed, and I walked away. I don't know if they stayed at this party. I do remember Eric saying that he was excited to hang out with his friend Travis, Travis Walton, because they're buddies. And he didn't get to. So it kind of makes me think they left too, but I have no way of knowing because all I did was stand up, do this, walk through the door, walk out, walk out, lay down, sleep.

And then cry. But the thing is, like, Heidi was the only one I knew because I did know. know her because I met her at that same conference, but three years earlier. It was actually one of my first UFO conferences. And so I kind of knew who she was. And that's a big part of how I got up there in the first place. She was like, oh, hey, come with me. We'll go up here because I didn't have any money. And there was like a makeshift bar downstairs at this party. And she or they, I assume they at this point, just based on the way everything transpired. saw me do this and like, ugh, and they didn't take cards or anything. So she was like, I've got a key to the VIP room.

And all this beer was for everybody anyway. So they wouldn't. It's not like we were stealing beer from them or anything. So that's how I got up there in the first place. So I did kind of know her. She's the only one I could have reached out to because I didn't know who or what Eric was or if he even existed in this time. Because again,

in my mind, this was a future human because they alluded to that when I telepathically said future human. Again, didn't answer the question. So I could have reached out to her, and I eventually did, the day before I was going down to meet Jesse to finish this little feature piece on my research, that wasn't going to include this interaction, but I knew he would want to talk about it. He gave me an out also because he knew it was really hard for me. He was one of the first people I told, like I said, about a month or two after it happened. So, Heidi didn't remember much of anything other than how weird it was.

But once Jesse's doco came out where I did talk about this, then I got a Facebook message from Eric and had kind of a trigger response, much like when I saw those chairs out on the balcony, because I'm sitting down to eat Thanksgiving dinner and his face pops up. Yeah, I see a message. I click on it. now Eric's real. Oh shit. Yeah. And then like all of the questions. And all it said,

he has this, he has this really like kind of psychedelic background and his faces right there. Because he has very mesmerizing eyes to start with, especially when there's like entities communicating through them. That's even more intense. And especially when he's right in front of your face. So it's a picture of him in his face. And it just said,

I would have to go look. I saved all. of our interactions because some of them got very, he's not just him anymore. He's also them, but through Facebook Messenger, which is a hilarious place to receive telepathic messages from. But it said, I think it's time for us to talk. And then I was like, oh shit, like this is a person. I can actually ask questions to this person, you know. And from that point on, yeah, I think actually we just had a Zoom conversation like last month. We email each other from time to time.

He's thrown into the same weird soup we all are. Was he ever, did he ever say that something like that had happened to him before? Or was that like the first time he'd experienced something like that, do you think? Like the way that his behavior was, was that something that he was like shocked by? Or was he like really okay with all of this? Like what was his energy around this? on the Zoom call. Well, see, on since then, we haven't really, like, talked about that much.

It's just kind of what's going on. What are you up to? Sure. You know, because we did actually, me, him, and Heidi got together and did, like a little YouTube thing where we talked about our experiences, sort of from our own point of view. And that's probably the best answer to your question. Okay. And then that is available. I forget they have a name for their,

because they sort of teamed up for a podcast. Okay. Maybe you can link that to me. That's a great idea. Yeah, you can put it in the show notes. Because we did get together and talk for about an hour, hour and 15, about specifically that. That incident.

You really felt bad about last year. I don't know if you're comfortable about talking about that with me and Heidi. I remember this beautiful little cat was crawling around on my shoulder during the interview. But that was kind of where we all sort of revisited it from our own vantage point. But yeah, I can't remember exactly what we talked about in that conversation. All right. So I want to get back to prior to this, you know, it's clear that you're still processing.

a lot of this information and you know you're you're being apologetic for being scatterbrained which I think is the thing to be the least apologetic for when something of this magnitude happens to you well I apologize too because I am a professor sure I need to teach things in a way that's comprehensible and linear and builds on top of the other thing it's mostly for me I'm like why can't I just do this you know yeah frustrating that's all that's why I apologize and but you know, to maybe counter that I would say in whatever means necessary you need to tell this story is the proper, you know, is the proper way to tell it because I think I speak for a lot of people out there who are just thankful that someone, that anyone would talk about this publicly, I think,

is a really important thing to do. And, you know, the fact that you are also a professor, you know, it isn't lost on me and I'm sure it's not lost in the audience either. I didn't want to talk about it. I'm not going to lie. It was really, really hard. In fact, that's what I asked Heidi. That's why I eventually reached out. Because in addition to asking about my physical health, funny question, funny answer,

and about, you know, the anxiety as I was having the first time we had this conversation, one of my questions is, can I talk about this? Because by that time, I was like, this is weird, something weird's happening here. And they specifically said, we want you to talk. about this. Wow. And in addition to that, and that's what I reached out to Heidi about, I was like, and I'm paraphrasing now, as you probably found out, my memory doesn't work very well with specifics. Sure. It's fine. Especially after going on four years now. But I asked, do you remember in that conversation on the

balcony when they said, we want you to talk about this? Do you remember if there was a time frame? It was some version of that. And then that's when she divulged that she doesn't remember a lot of the specifics or most of them, which was really interesting to me. But also I was kind of like, oh, shit, I was kind of hoping she would fill me in on everything. Yeah. Because I'm finally like, I might have to go talk about this. What do you remember? What do they mean by this?

What the hell was that? Who were they? So, unfortunately, I didn't get those answers. but I did also start to feel like a hypocrite because I dedicated my second book sitting right there right in the front. I forget exactly what it says, but I dedicated it to the brave women and men who are willing to talk about their insane experiences because without that I wouldn't have a book to write. You know, how do I write this amalgamation of other people's insane contact experiences that I can weave together and find patterns in unless they're willing to talk about it? So between them specifically saying we would like you to do this and me realizing I'm a hypocrite if I don't, I sat on my back deck and just really tried to process, yeah, thinking about my career, my reputation.

I'm like, well, I'm already talking about UFOs. You know, it's already sort of going against the grain of what a respectable professor is supposed to be doing. And it seemed, yeah, it seemed important. So here we are. Thing is, though, I don't have any answers, you know? Yeah. It's all, you might. You just don't know.

Maybe, yeah, maybe. Just need to stick an eel in there and jar it loose. I mean, just as a throwaway question here, and you've probably given this thought, hypnotic regression? Well, there was a guy I met at Asselm. Bill is his name. He told me, I actually, I met him at Eslin, and then I met him again in New York at an inquiry into anomalous experiences conference. And he was like, you know, I have a method that I could help you access that. It's like, but should I?

You know, why would they go to such an effort to put these three things in my brain and then hide them from me for me to just go secretly find out what They are, you know. So I did actually have a Zoom with them, and we did, he convinced me that it would be useful to learn this technique, regardless of whether I used it to try to access this information. But yeah, hypnotic regression would probably work as well. Yeah. But that is a good point. And that's something that I think I'd also feel weird about, strange about. Well, and I really did get the sense that this was a team effort, that I.

that I was already a part of this thing. And they were just politely taking me through the steps to make me remember of that. And by the time that they were like, we need to put these things in your brain. Are you okay with that? I was like, yeah, just, of course. Like, sorry. Sorry, I had to work so hard at this. Whoa.

Okay. So now you'd mentioned prior to, you know, getting into this catalystic event that there were so many other things. you had residual psychic activity. Can you talk us through some of those things and perhaps, yeah, just contextualize that a little bit more? Yeah, I mean, the main thing is that some of them didn't involve other people. Like we were just talking about this one, I think, needed to not just to lend credence to it for people that hear about it, but also for me. because I didn't take seriously the first interaction I had, which again, the common theme is light and most of these. So take it for what it's worth if people only want to hear things that are verifiable because of the people were involved.

I have a couple of those two actually, but not long after I was woken up every half hour on the exact minute for about six different sessions. And sat up in bed and felt the same thing I experienced on the balcony with the light and the information. And I was, the first time it happened, I was like, oh, shit, what is this? Like, but it was so recent that I remembered, like, that feeling, you know, of the information, the colors, the light, the sensations, the emotions. And I was awake for just a minute and then my back to sleep, like instantly. And this was way before I learned the meditation technique where I could put myself to sleep. I was put to sleep. Like as soon as I hit the pillow.

Woke up again a half hour later. Same thing. I'm aware of it. Nothing's really happening. But I'm aware of like that that was just happening and like the last little bits of it, you know, or filtering in back asleep, back up, back sleep, back up. And this went on for, you know, a few hours. And there was nobody shooting things into my face right in front.

front of me like there was on the balcony, but it was the same experience, just happening in my subconscious as opposed to my conscious, which is way easier. Like when I woke up, I knew what was happening. I went and told my wife, like, they did the same thing, but they did in my sleep, and it was way easier. You know, it's not like the fire hose of information coming through your conscious mind and getting buried back in some vault somewhere. It was like a nice, peaceful, slow, just same experience, but in my subconscious. The one that involves other people that was kind of weird is there were a lot of, a lot of things involving disruptions to sleep in general.

I started being woken up at the same time every morning, eventually learned that that's pretty common with people who have had these types of weird experiences. And there's even a name for it's called Brahma Maharta. Whitley, um, yeah, Streber has written five books, he said in this state of,

during this meditative, yeah, early morning state. Yes. Yeah. I think you mentioned earlier that, it's something I do as well. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And so I, uh, it's funny because I've, I've been talking about that aspect of this, which only came post that one big event. Um, and,

and I only need about five hours of sleep now. If I get more than that, I feel like, you know, I just woke up. from a nap and never really got back to the same place. I go to sleep around one. I get up around 5.30 or six. I just wake up. And, you know, I can try to go back to sleep. I do. And then the rest of my day, shit. But this brahm at heart hit time, at first I was really mad about it. And then I started

using it because I heard Whitley on my friend Kelly Chase's podcast, which is Cosmosis now. And I was like, oh my God, there's a name for this. And you can use it. And so I started doing that. would start getting up at that time and writing or just doing whatever. And it's like this weird, like magical period where you can sort of be in both. You're in the conscious world and bring things in from that sort of liminal subconscious space as well. So I started doing that and it felt way better. I felt like I was using the time as opposed to being mad about it. But the one that did involve other people that is weird and also verifiable is I started to experience time slips, which the first one that happened was in New York after that same conference I mentioned where I'm hanging out with a bunch of people, good friends, post-conference, we're having a good time.

I go into the bathroom, I come back out what I think is a minute, two minutes later, and everybody's gone and the bars closed. Like, and these aren't people where there would be a collective Irish goodbye or like I was drunk and just didn't realize. Like, I was very lucid. Went into the bathroom, came back out and the bar's closed and everybody's gone. So I get an Uber. I over back to Midtown Manhattan or wherever I was staying. And the next day, I was going to shoot with one of these individuals. He runs up to me and I get out of the elevator.

I like, dude, what happened last night? I don't want to tell you anything, so I don't want to bias it. He experienced the same thing. all experienced this weird time slip at that same time. Whoa. So it wasn't even just me and my perception. Like he and the others we were with all had this weird like gap in time, you know? And that was weird, but obviously.

What was their gap like? Like what did they explain? Did they really? He was like, oh, I was just home or? No. We didn't really get a chance to go deep on it because another one of our friends came up. And she was like, oh, you guys were just drunk. And she doesn't drink.

And we both went, we weren't, but all right, whatever. And we were trying to do this shoot. So we didn't really get to sit down. I've met up with them since. For some reason, we haven't talked about it because that would be a really good chance to follow up on what was your experience. Like, another one not long after that, we were driving from where I live in Butte, Montana to bend Oregon. And we made it past Missoula, Montana. to this gas station where you would go up to Quinn Hot Springs,

which is about two and a half hours away. We made it there in 45 minutes. With my wife, with my kids in the back, we somehow lost an hour and a half on this drive. Like it just disappeared. We were just listening to a podcast, eating cheeses. We still joke that if we put on the smart list podcast and eat cheese it so we can just cut the drive time for any,

yeah, we could just time, which was great. We got there and we were like, holy shit. And we each checked our phones. We checked the clock in the truck. We went back and checked when we texted our house sitter. Because we always text our house sitter. We've got sheep and dogs and chickens. We need somebody to stay there.

We always text the second we leave to let them know we left so they can come there and take care of the animals. We lost an hour and a half. We didn't experience anything weird. We didn't see anything weird. We're just eating cheesuits and listening to a podcast. and somehow lost an hour and a half of time. There was another one where I was just sitting out in my backyard. I'd had two beers.

That's it. And the same thing that I experienced with the sort of darkness coming down over the eyes. I, like, had a sense that was going to happen. I don't remember hearing a voice or anything, but I had, like, an understanding. And so I just sat back in the chair. The same thing happened. I was by myself, so unverifiable. And then after some period of time,

time that I don't know how much time passed. My vision returned the same way it did on my balcony. Wow. I just got up and went inside. Like, those were happening a lot. This is in the last two years. Yeah. And then more recently, I've been able to leave my body, which I know is only because they took me out of it that one time on the balcony. So it gave you a sense of like, this is what you can do. And it's familiar now and it's not scary at all. Sure. In fact, I love it. It's, I don't do it too much. because for a while I was really pissed and like my wife told me that one about two or three months after this happened in Phoenix I woke up and was sitting at the edge of the bed having an argument with them.

She couldn't remember what it was. I don't talk in my sleep. The whole rest of my family does. But I don't talk in my sleep. But I guess I got up, I sat on the bed and was having an argument with them about like the best she could. could say is like, what is this, what are we doing here? What is this physical space? Because I had seen that other side and was brought there and saw the instant communication, the information that just moves and flows without the burdens of like formulating a thought and speaking it and hearing

and reformulating thought. And just like, you know, the hippie-dippy, infinite love and energy. Like, I felt all of that and then really struggled kind of on a personal but also a cosmic level with what is this physical reality what is this and how does it relate to that and apparently you know that had been something that i was involved in in a dream state or something i don't know um but i sort of worked toward trying to not figure that out or understand it, but at least get a frame of reference where I could be okay with being in this physical reality because I have to be. Yeah. And like we were talking about at breakfast, there's a reason why we're here because we're giving up.

Probably a big one. If we're giving up that infinite love and security and lack of pain and lack of fear. Yeah, and eternal like life. Eternal life, the timeless, spaceless, energetic utopia to be here. There's a reason for that, and we should embrace it and recognize that this is a unique experience that we get to share with other people who are also here seeking an understanding of this experience as well. So over the last six months, and like I said, I haven't been doing many of these interviews, most of it. because I became chair of my department at Montana Tech, and that comes with a lot of obligations. And it was mostly a time constraint thing. But over the last six months, I feel like I've

gotten to a place where it's, I still don't understand it, but it's good, and I'm happy. Because for about a year, year and a half, maybe, I was very unhappy and confused and stuck between two worlds. Yeah. But I've found a happy place between them that makes living a lot easier. I'm glad to hear that. Yeah, it's really interesting, man. I'm at a loss for words with this story. It's just, it's a lot for me to try and put myself in, and I don't know how I would reconcile all of that. Like, I guess it would take time. And honestly, like, I have said this before. If you look at the crazy experiences people have, like, there wasn't a UFO.

Nobody put anything in my butt. You know, like, people have way more impactful, strange, ontologically shocking experiences. It definitely affected me on a personal level for a while and all of the follow-on effects and just the questions that obviously arise from it. But I mean, I don't know. I think a lot of people have way weirder things happen to them, to be honest. Yeah. I agree.

There are some weird things out there. But I think, you know, what makes this one unique aside from the fact that there were witnesses and other people involved who are, you know, potentially some type of conduit for. NIH is that this happened in and around the UFO uphology sphere. Yeah, it was a UFO conference. Yeah. One of the biggest and best. And that, I think, is really interesting because, you know, part of me when I think about these conferences, I think, you know, I always, I always tend to, you know, when I go,

I went to the one contact in the desert, but then I was at the UAP. congressional hearing, the last one. Oh, nice. And I'm at those things. And I find myself more often than not during a presentation scanning the room for NHI. Something that I do, you know, I'm kind of like sending out the signal to be like, if you're here, you know, oh, your scales are showing and then just watch somebody like scratch the back of their head or something. But like this type of, I'm always trying to put it out there because I think if you were that and you were going to show up, you wouldn't show up in a, you know, if you were trying to communicate, that is, you would do it at a place like that where it matters.

Yeah. Right. And so that makes me, it actually, where some people might be like, well, that's convenient. I think it is convenient. And I think it is, there's a reason for that happening there. That's a really great point. And also because the two people that did act as conduits, you don't find them everywhere. People that have been activated that have had experiences that make them able to interact in this way.

Like, they probably exist in a much higher proportion in places like that than just at the grocery store. That's right. But there's the case of, who was Ingo Swan, who claims to have been approached. In the supermarket? Yeah, in the supermarket. And so this whole question of like them walking amongst us, there's a lot of cases. There was a guy, I think he was like a general in England who had someone approach him and just start speaking telepathically to him. And I mean, I don't know if it's necessarily, I think about this a lot, like how much of that is actually what we would call aliens or NHI.

I kind of hate the NHI acronym for a lot of different reasons. But some sort of high intellect, high capacity human being, you know. Um, they, they might have been at that hearing. They might have been at that UFO conference. They're probably all over the place. Yeah. Who are they? What are they?

What are they doing? If you can just instantiate, you know, and sort of occupy someone else's consciousness temporarily with or without them knowing, why wouldn't you be there? Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's not even what I was talking about. Like, I'm talking about ones who are full time. Yeah, physical. Physically. Sure.

That. But then, yeah, if you add that component of it. Yeah. that could be a lot of people or any of us potentially. Yeah. Like, you know, I do know I was being used in that way and writing one specific part of that book. A lot of it was sort of low state creative writing like we were talking about. There was one actual moment where I know that happened to me.

Really? And I don't think there's anything special about me or my physiology or anything. It was, I think it's just a complete openness. and like so this was kind of a funny experience I had a couple weeks ago. I couldn't remember the name to the Bob Dylan movie that just came out. Complete unknown. Yeah, complete unknown. I was going to say it's the song.

But I could not think of the name. And my daughter looked it up eventually. It was like, don't tell me. You know, I'm going to tell me telepathically. I'm just going to. And so I was trying to like read her mind. And then I was like, wait a minute, that's the wrong way to do it. I need to turn my mind off and just let her thoughts come into my empty brain.

And I was like, okay, wait, now try it. Turn off my brain. I said a complete unknown with her as she said it out of her mind. And obviously you could say, well, you just remembered at the right time or, you know, she was behind me. I couldn't see her phone. I just turned my brain off, heard her voice in my mind. There was another one about last month where I was doing a really deep state meditation. I was sitting in my favorite chair.

I had my like blackout eye thing. Yeah. Like a mind sight type deal. Yeah. Yeah. Noise cancelling headphones. I'm just like out of reality. I guess my wife came up and she was standing there just kind of watching for a little bit,

want to do her own little experiment. So at some point after she said about four or five minutes, she went, Michael. And I heard that in my head, took my headphones off and looked right at her at that exact moment. She was like, I wondered if that would work. Whoa. So I think like a lot of telepathy isn't really like, you know, like you see in the old sci-fi movies. I think it's really just, you know, like what you do in meditation, like just turning your damn brain off. Whoa.

Yeah. And it does strike me as something that is, that would be for the most part pretty subtle. You know, like it would, it's like a faint signal. especially if we're just starting. Yeah, for now. That's what I was about to say. If we're just starting, it's not. It's not going to be this cry or this, like, it'll be like a small, little intuitive, you know, perhaps.

It's not fun to think about, like, these little baby steps of telepathy that we're taking. Yeah. That eventually are just going to be, you know, like, wow, I can't believe it was ever this hard to do. Yeah. In like 100 years, thousand years. I don't know how long it'll take, but. Well, we got the side games coming up. Dude, yeah.

I watched your interview with. Hakeem Isler. Yeah. Really interesting. That sounds super cool. Yeah, he's an interesting guy. And I think it's so cool that we get to test this out. And, you know, something I've watched a video of Russell Targs recently, where he was saying that they're, you know, the environment of knowing that it will work actually, you know, amplifies the results.

And that's something that he took into SRI when they did a lot of that work as well was they didn't say, we're going to try. this, they said, here's what we're doing today. And just that assumption of these things working amplify. And you don't even have to be in the psychic realm to confirm that. You know, there's actual studies done on, you know, telling students, you know, a few of your geniuses. We know because we've studied you, it hasn't shown up in your last test, but it's like a latency thing. So it'll come up, but we know this already about you. So and just saying that, watching the IQ level rise after that, right? So it's almost like this, yeah, the subtle confidence that you're able to give people that it, that it is real and this

knowing happens. Well, isn't that also related to the manifest team that you were talking about earlier, that if you imagine that not as something you want, but something you have or are, then it comes easier. It's a knowing. It's a misplaced confidence. It's whatever this is, but it seems like that's a really good factor. And it's not something we've readily been able to do. publicly with the sigh stuff.

You have James Randy and this like whole like sort of like if you're if you can prove anything paranormal will give you a million dollars. But the way this was set up was very skeptical and we don't believe you anyways. And like and so not very conducive, not to say that anyone was psychic that went on that show, but definitely not conducive to allowing psychic behavior to happen. Yeah. Dean Radin mentioned that in his book too and said the exact same thing. Yeah.

You can't expect people to work. There's a bias. Yeah. It's a bias inherent. that we offer here, aside from weekly updates and all sorts of extras, is the chance to ask our guest a question. And I have a few here that I've handpicked. And so we will start with this one from T.H. Perry. A transitional phase.

Oh, I love that question. I, when I wrote my first book, I would answer that differently than I would now. I thought of them more as an end point where we're going as sort of not really a teleological point in space time, but more of this is where we get to the point that we can time travel. And that's why we're seeing them, which as I mentioned earlier was a limited view because then I learned that a lot of them are human. In fact, the majority are human looking. Now I would answer that question with, I think they are also a transition. species in the sense that I think because our consciousness is foundational and the quantum level

and the classical mechanical level all is built on top of that, that we're eventually going to get to the point where these bodies are almost seen as a redundancy and we sort of return to or reach the point that we become so aware of that that. that ethereal soul consciousness that those bodies are irrelevant and potentially just, I guess, for lack of a better phrase, like soul vehicles of sorts. And that might be what those, you know, future humans are even, you know, if we're looking back to past experiences with, you know, people being conduits for some type of other intelligence. Yeah.

Perhaps that's exactly what's happening already. And that's why I think they were so elusive when I asked future humans, because they could be future humans that are at the point where they transcend time and space altogether. Right. And don't need to be great aliens and UFOs to be who they are. Don't need an actual time machine. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Exactly. Great question, Perry. Thank you. Got another one here. I think we answered this one a little bit. I think you touched on it. But we can dive in a little bit more. How does an extra tempestrial navigate the grandfather paradox?

No, that is a good question for this conversation, because I talked about the bootstrap paradox, but not the grandfather paradox. Well, sort of touched on it, but didn't directly address. See, I do appreciate that question. Within the block universe model, there are no paradoxes because you can't go back and kill your grandfather in the first place. those moments are already structured. They already have an existence within this four-dimensional block of all events, past, present and future. So you can go back and interact with the past, but you're not changing anything. So you go back, you walk around, you pet dogs, you kiss goats, you make babies, and then come back to the future, nothing's different because you had always already done those things in the past.

So you get back, you were a part of that past, you didn't change anything. So if your grandfather was alive, if you were alive, you don't kill them because you didn't kill them. And one thing that helps people conceptualize this is that we often look back at the past and we're like, oh, all those things are done. That's solid. That's in the registry. Can't change it. But there's all these things in the future. Future is wide open.

We could do all of these different things. but we forget that that future is somebody else's past, and they're looking back on it the exact same way. And that's the essence of the Black Universe model, is that all things are, and you can interact, you can jump in and out, but you can't necessarily change things as perceived from the future looking back into the past. Well, I'm often reminded of like this comedian said this, I forget who it was, but they were talking about a skit where like they wanted to make this movie,

and it's this it's this guy who's just defending his baby these time travelers are all trying to kill his baby and he's just constantly like fighting them off

and turns out the baby's Hitler and like he's just been trying to just save his own child you know oh that's a funny that's a funny bit if you ever come across that again

send it to me yeah that's a great idea for a movie what a twist all right This is a good one. From Hannah Hun. Cool name.

Do you think there would be time tourism agencies in the future now? This is a legitimate question and part of a concern with the idea of time travel. If time travel exists, where are all the tourists? Well, yeah, that was Stephen Hawking's stumbling block. But I would argue that we see them all the time. They're just not allowed to interact. And I specifically address this toward the end of my first book, because I point out that the most visited sites currently are historic and prehistoric sites. People are already interested in the past in these places where really interesting things took place, interesting cultures lived.

They built really amazing structures, art and history. So I also argued that there's a good job. chance that time travel technology, at least in the way we would see it in linear time, because again, if there's time machines in the future, they exist at any point they can reach, regardless of when that is. But as far as when we see the actual creation in this linear time could possibly be, and I would argue there's good reason to believe it might be developed because of the incentive in the private sector to fill that demand for time tourism. Hmm.

Like that would be enough to drive it forward? We see it right now. Yeah. With Blue Origin, with SpaceX, with the Branson guy, with the taking people to space. They pay a lot of money for that. Imagine that with time, how much money you could make taking people to the past. Again, they're probably the ones you see up in the clouds. Yeah.

They're not the ones coming down picking people up. That seems like scientific research. But all the ones you see kind of hiding, you know, like doing this, that might be full of tourists. You know, one thought that pops into my mind. is that if you do have the technology to create time travel, you also have the technology to fake it. Right? As a magician, that's where my head goes. Of course it does. That's a good point. So, I mean, you wouldn't need actual time travel. You would just need to make them think it's time travel by some means of virtual reality.

To an extent, yeah. And I mean, that could be. And just sell it as is? Right. The problem, at least with the way the situation works currently, is that the, that they seemingly try to hide that it is time travel by saying their extraterrestrials. Right. They did that for a very long time. Like, oh, were you from all these stars? Don't worry about it. But there are cases more recently where they do say, we are you from the future.

Or like, Whitley's case, you know, he's like, you're so damn ugly. He's like, oh, my dear, someday you will look just like us. Like, there's so many little things that seem like cryptic, you know. But yeah, you're right. Absolutely. It could all be an illusion. I mean, the whole phenomenon could be for that, man. Yeah.

It's fun. One of my favorite things about having these conversations is the people I get to talk to have so many different perspectives. Like you as a professional magician for 20 years have such like your starting point is so different. Like recently I've been talking a lot of comedians for some point, you know, which I love too because it's just everything is so like hard. They're like philosophers as well. Yes, yes, because they see every little detail of reality. and the funny bits of it, you know. It's enlightening to speak to comedians.

Yeah. One of my favorite comedians is Reggie Watts, and he was asked on a podcast, if aliens came down, because he's really into the UFO phenomenon. I think he got to ask Obama. I know. I saw that clip. Yeah. But he was like, if aliens came down, who would you want to be the first people to meet him? And he said, Alex Gray, the artist, you know, makes all the fractal things.

And then Sarah Silverman, which I completely agree with. So great. Like those two people coming out to be ambassadors of humanity. Yeah. I think he should go too. It's hilarious. Yeah, I look at that. I think Jake Paul.

And they should fight. They should fight. Or fake. Yeah. Oh, too soon. All right. Question here by Toot McSkut. Man, these names are epic.

And we'll end on this one. Toot miscute. What's your favorite time travel movie? What's going through your head right now? What are you putting it up against? You got the classics. We got obviously back to the future. Oh, no, God, I hate that movie.

Really? Oh, yeah. No way. You can't hate back to the future. It ruins the brains of an entire generation. It made them think you can change the past. Right. They don't deal with the paradoxes.

They just throw a bunch of shit out there. And that's where a lot of people got their information about backward time travel. I hate that. If the question is, what's your least favorite, you would be back to the future. It's so funny because it's a great movie. But I understand how it's a terrible time travel movie. Good point. I did love the movie.

There is a funny paradox in that movie that happens where he's like, Marty, hurry up. We got to go back. It's like, you have a time machine. Why are we hurrying? There's no rush here. Okay. So back to the question.

What's your favorite? So what was going through my mind is I was thinking about shows. Because I feel like there's a couple shows that did it better, or at least did interesting things. but there is one movie I was also trying to remember the name of this movie it's with I can picture his face

can't Ethan Hawk It's called like It starts with an eye It's like Are they going back to fix things It's like kind of like a Yeah

Can we can we cut and like look it up real fast? I'll look it up right now I'll keep talking and you look it up All right Just look up Ethan Hawk time travel movie It's like I know it starts with an I. I just can't remember the word, but the name is relevant. Predestination.

Predestination did not start with an eye, but the name is very relevant to what it is. They did a pretty good job of like adhering. Because for me, a good time travel movie is one that actually tries to do a good job. But it's hard because it's hard to write a story that it hears. to self-consistency, the Navakab self-consistency principle. There's a show called Dark. Love that show. I did a really good job with it.

There's also a show, again, not a movie, so we're kind of skirting the question here, called Travelers, which is a really interesting one because there's an AI component, too, where souls, rather than physical time travel, goes back to what we were talking about earlier in the interview with, like, you know, maybe we're also living multiple. pull lives and experiencing things in different bodies at different times. And in that particular show, they take over the bodies of people in the past, but all of it's being governed by this like central computer command system. And I think, I think that's a good example of how we're likely living and more like a Seth speaks soul traveling sort of situation, which is time travel, because you're taking individual essences, energies, and putting them in different bodies at different times. As far as physical aspects of it, I think dark is probably the best one.

Again, not movies. And then predestination is probably one of the best actual movies. Arrival had a good time element. Arrival did too. Yeah, you're right. You know what? I'm going to go future human and say that the book, Revelation, the future human past, when it's made into the movie, is going to.

be the best time travel movie because I actually did it in this story. Yeah. I actually stayed self-consistent and still wrote a storyline, but I flipped it. So in most of these, they start out with sort of adherence to the self-consistency principle. Yeah. And then they write themselves into a corner. Yes. And they're like, oh, you know, mini worlds is cool. We'll just do that. But then there's so many more paradoxes and they just brush them off, gloss over them, you know. But this book did the opposite where I wrote it as many worlds and then it comes together and I don't think I'm given too much away sure but it comes together as adherence to self-consistency is it a closed loop it is yeah um so if that ever gets made into a movie looking at you Spielberg which camera he only

watches through this yeah looking at you Spielberg if that ever gets made I do think because of the way the story unfolds that it'll that it would be a great time travel movie yeah maybe the greatest tutma scoodle agree with me I think that's awesome all right well mike thank you so much for for everything man yeah dude appreciate it absolutely i appreciate you um is there anywhere folks can follow you is there like uh on x on instagram or website people can go to yeah i think so um most of it's just either at morpho time m o r phto time uh or michael pmasters dot com as links to the those too. So I don't update. I don't do a lot of cool stuff. That's fine. But if you do.

But I'm out there and people can reach out. And I do try to respond to everybody. It's not always possible, obviously. But I do make an effort. So great. And if you guys want to check out his books, by the way, we're going to give two of these books away of the extra tempestrial model signed by Michael himself. And to win them, I mean, these are going up for grabs for the members. So if you're a member, you have a chance to win, I'll be picking two random members. Wait, what if we did, like, they list their favorite time travel, movies, or shows? I like that. And then, uh, I'll choose from one of them.

Well, it's got, there's got to be a random element. That's true. So, but that's a good way to submit your name. That's a good point. Okay. Okay. Let's do that. If you, if you submit your favorite.

Time travel movie or show. Yeah. Because then you'll be in running. Something from that, too, because there might be a bunch of. good ones out there. And people are like, oh my God, how did he not know about this? It's a great point. Yeah. Yeah. Look at you. Learn, learn. Learn teach. You're an influencer too. Look at this. All right. Thanks, Mike. I appreciate your time, man. Thank you. I appreciate it.