AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - Bob Lazar Just Revealed His BIGGEST Secret - DEBRIEFED ep. 87

Episode Date: May 8, 2026

Tickets to the Live Show: https://www.itsprobablynothing.com/Watch "S4: The Bob Lazar Story" Here: https://www.wearenotalone.com/AREA 52 Shop: https://www.area52.shopToday, in this exclusive interview, Bob Lazar reveals a NEW Name in connection with S4. I also speak with Luigi Venditelli ( @ProjectGravitaurOfficial  ) about the reason this information was left out of the documentary.Bob also touches on his relationship with John Lear, the liquid he drank as well as the strange reason why Dennis Marianni contacted him after he went public.

Ladies and gentlemen, a few months after I hosted a podcast featuring the Area 51 whistleblower Bob Lazar, I had met Bob again for a follow-up interview. During this interview, we discuss information that has never been brought forward in the public eye. Today, for the first time ever, Bob Lazar will reveal a brand new name in connection with S4. We've obtained this exclusive deleted scene from the documentary S4 The Bob Lazar story, featuring a conversation between Bob Lazare and director Luigi Venditelli. I was also able to ask Bob a few questions regarding his past, regarding John Lear and his relationship to John, regarding the liquid that he drank at S4.

And just to be thorough, I also interviewed Luigi Venditelli, to fill us in a little bit more about why this pertinent, important piece of information was not featured in his documentary, and if this indeed will help move the needle. You know, there are certain pieces of information that I intentionally keep, there are several pieces of information that I keep to myself, and that the main reason is, you know, in case somebody does claim to be involved, with the project or been there, whatever, they should be able to tell me those.

And I need to keep a certain amount of those. There are other, some technical aspects that I'm just keeping to myself because I need to at this point in time. But if you just essentially want something that I, you made to give up just one little thing that I haven't, I can tell you the person, the name of another person that no one has heard of that worked there.

His name was Chuck Payne. Let's pick up where we left off a little bit, because I had some follow-up questions. You know, for me that conversation was truly like a canon event in my life. Like, that is, you know, it marked like a really important, I feel, um, turning point in terms of like, oh my God, like this is, if there's anybody out there that I've wanted to interview, it was like Bob Lazar, Travis Walton, like these are, you know, and I'm there now and this is, it's kind of surreal to me, you know, and I've had time to sit back and ponder and kick myself for not asking certain questions. So it's not every day I get to, I get to come back and, uh, and have a redo. So I wanted to follow up on a few things that we never covered and that are covered in Project Ravitor because, as you know, by the time that this podcast comes out, the movie will have aired. Hopefully. Yes, hopefully.

Well, that's the deal. So this isn't coming out unless it airs. Okay. So rest assured, the movie's out, you know, go rent it, go buy it, all that stuff. You, in the movie, there is, there are a few revelations. relations that are pretty earth-shattering in terms of this case for a lot of people. There's, you know, there's been a lot of contention on different topics surrounding your story and yourself and your history. But you came forward with a new name.

Chuck Payne. Yeah. What, can you tell me what made you withhold? that name. There's as I mentioned before, I always intentionally withheld several things about us for because Chuck Payne was a really well-known guy because he really stood out as this, I don't know, an overt security person. He was so, he played the part well. He was one of the security guards there. I have never mentioned that. This is brand new information. Yeah, I've never mentioned that to anybody. Have you ever mentioned this to George.

now and no so this is no one is officially the first time is correct yeah well I yeah and it was just one and the reason why Chuck was a very of all the security guards around there were very tight-lipped and quiet and you really had minimal interaction with him Chuck was different and he stood out And if you were at S-4, you knew Chuck Payne. You knew Chuck Payne. He just was one of those guys, hey, how are you doing? I mean, a security guy would never talk to you or say anything.

You know, he'd go, hey, Bob. I mean, he was the only one that was just a bit of an extrovert. And he stuck out, and he did that to everybody. And, I mean, if you were there, you knew, heard or saw Chuck Payne. If somebody said, you know, name a guard's name, they'd say Chuck Payne. So anyway, I get so many comments, emails, or people saying, you know, my grandfather worked there or so-and-so worked there. And it's like you want to just hold back a couple minor details and said, okay, if he did, tell me about this, tell me about this, tell me about this. Chuck Payne was just one of those things.

Wow. It was just to hold back because if you were there, you would have. Now, by saying that, I've now lost one other thing. Yeah. So, but nothing is, you know, earth-shattering critical. They're little things like that. Well, they seem, you know, maybe they're little things, but, you know, for good old Chuck out there, he's going, what the fuck? Yeah.

Come on, Bob. He doesn't appreciate that. He's like, what the hell, Bob? You think he's still around? Don't know. Yeah. You haven't looked into him. Didn't do any.

No, I really haven't looked into anybody. But from those that did, it looked like Dennis Mariani died. Yeah. I've had. I heard that. Yeah, I had pictures of a gravestone and, you know, people seem to, this guy, it connects all the dots. This looks like it was the guy. So I don't know.

We're all getting up in age. Yeah. It's possible. Was he older than you or younger than you? He was older than me. He was older than you. by a few years or I couldn't tell you. Yeah, not, not like terribly old or anything.

No. Yeah. Okay. And this guy was, was this the guy that roughed you up a little bit more than the rest of the security? Like, was this the guy who like really had it out for you or just they all kind of equally? Yeah. That's why I crossed my eyes of that. Yeah, I mean, they're kind of all from the same mold.

Yeah. So. That's stress inoculation. Yeah. I, I don't know how. I don't know how things went there with the guards because we were kind of separated from them. But it seemed like he was just on a different level with them.

Yeah. I don't know if he was in charge of them. I don't know if he was, he wasn't just one of them. He was a special entity in himself. So I don't know what his rank was, but he was just a different guy. Yeah. And with the name like Chuck Payne.

Yeah. And that's what was funny about it. I was surprised when he let that out with me in an interview. This happened like over three years ago. So I've been holding this, you know, we've been holding this to ourselves for a long time. And kind of an exciting moment. And we're like, do we put this out there? We put, we created the first version, which you saw.

And it was in there. And everybody liked it. Everybody thought it was great. And then we started looking at it again and thought we didn't expand on it in the film. We just put a little bit in there. He says a name of somebody and that's it. So we had some people say it's kind of a non, it's not necessary in there if you're not going to expand on it. It's just going to piss people off that you put something in there and then there's nothing else.

so we decided to take it out. Before we continue, I'd like to say that the Chuck Payne that you are going to find should you Google this name is not the Chuck Payne, as mentioned, in the interview with Bob, that worked at S4. It is a senator and he would probably appreciate if we didn't blow up his inbox. Now, that being said, I have done some due diligent research on the name Chuck Payne, and there are many that come up from retired army to intelligence. your guess is as good as mine. We were in Las Vegas when that happened, and we were shooting something that's not in the film is all the footage that we have with Bob Lazar in the desert

with a Dolorean time machine. That was the time that we went out to Las Vegas, the whole crew of Motivo, Art My Crew, and Project Gravitor crew, basically. We went out and filmed with a Delorean Time Machine in the desert, and we had rented an Airbnb in Los Vegas, in Las Vegas, which is a giant mansion so that we could all sleep in the same house. So we were like a whole bunch of people. And it was in the middle of an afternoon, I was showing Bob some stuff.

And I'll never forget he was so, because also gave us an opportunity to hang out with Bob Lazar while we were there. And I was showing him some of the updates we were making, some of the progress we were making in building S4. And he was really impressed. And he, you know, were sitting there and I said, you know, I don't want to push you and I don't want to, I don't know if there's anything that you've ever not said. But it would be so incredible if ever there's something you'd want to share that you've never shared before. I didn't say, you know, you have to give us something. And he immediately looked at me and said, you guys are really doing an incredible job. And I think there's something I can say. I said, okay. He said,

says, we'll talk about that whenever we have a chance, and that's what happened. The really interesting thing about this film and this project, this is while you and I have known each other, you brought to my attention that a pilot had reached out to you, and this came out after my film came out, that you were holding it tight. I was holding it tight. He was a co-pilot for EG&G flying the Janet flights into Groom Lake between 87 and 91, something like that. And that's exactly when Bob would have been there. And he said he knew Dennis Mariani. Speaking of Dennis Mariani, you know, we touched on this a little bit in our previous conversation.

We touched on the fact that I had reached out to a Janet Airlines co-pilot that knew Dennis and that, you know, was also informed of his passing and said that, you know, he'd met Dennis over a dozen times and had exchanged with him just sort of, you know, regular rapport. It proved one thing. There is a Dennis Mariani did exist. There was a Dennis Mariani that was flying on Janet Jets going to Groom Lake. Look, prove. That's a big word. It helps the argument.

That's the better way of framing it. It helps the argument that that could have been reality. And Bob was the guy who mentioned Dennis Mariani. Something really interesting. about Dennis Marianne that I don't think most people piece together is, you know, after you came out, you know, through George Knapp and he called you. Right? He called you to meet up with you. Yeah. How long after was that?

He called to meet at the Union Plaza Hotel. I it wasn't that long but I I couldn't have been weeks or months yeah no it wasn't months hmm I don't think it was months okay so it was pretty soon after yeah it was it was definitely relatively soon after and what exactly did he say to you again he was like let's meet up at the Union Plaza hotel yeah I don't at this point I don't remember the exact conversation but Yeah, and I don't remember the reason he gave me, but it was, yeah, to meet at the Union Plaza Hotel. Now, I mean, between us, like, you got a call. I was kind of excited for that.

Yeah, because he sounded different. He sounded like, you know, it wasn't like, hey, let's meet. It's like, hey, Bob, you know, let's meet at the Union Plaza Hotel. It was a different, it was a different tone of him. Right. I thought, okay. I don't know. Maybe it is going to be, I don't know.

I know you don't want to speculate. Yeah. But it's always why I keep stopping myself. And I appreciate that. But also, what other reasons are there? I don't. He might be sympathetic to my attitude or something like that. Right.

So, you know, I thought, yeah, okay. Okay. Yeah. So I called, you know, I said this time, I want witnesses, had friends come with me, you know, going first. That way I, you know, walked around, looked around. I said, there he is. Gene Huff, I said, that's Dennis Mariani right there.

So he had eyes on him too. Yeah. And, yeah, that's what that was about. And then you walked up to him and he kind of ignored you. Or he didn't kind of ignore me. Yeah, but as I walked in, I saw other faces that I've seen it as for walk by me coming from his direction. And I even stopped Gene in the hallway and said,

something's wrong. Those guys look familiar. They look like security from us four. And then when I went up to Dennis Mariani, he wouldn't even look at me. I stood right behind him. I stood right next to him. And he, like I wasn't even there.

I went, Dennis, and no response. So, yeah, okay, this is weird. And didn't you just turn over to Gene. said, yeah, this whole thing is... It reeks. Yeah, yeah, something's wrong. The faces from S-4, do you, do you, like, remember at all what department they were from? Or do you, like, are they security?

No, I think they were security. I think they were security. Yeah, it wasn't Chuck. No. An old buddy Chuck, he wouldn't let that slide. Wow, okay, so, you know, for me, when I hear this, I think to myself, there's a big hump that people have a hard time getting over. And the hump is why hire Bob, right? Why hire Bob if he, if he's an acquaintance of John Lear? Right. That's like the big thing that people have a hard time getting over.

Really? Okay. Yeah. A lot of people think that because they think if you're vetting someone for like a really, really top secret sort of reverse engineering, you know, job at S4, why would someone know, knowingly, you know, who's a friend of this person who's quite loud, you know, and overt with his, you know, conspiracies. Why would we hire someone who's associated with someone like that, right? Well, look at what John Lear was talking about at that time. He said there was over a billion aliens living in the mountains outside of Las Vegas that there is an entire civilization in the sun and that the sun isn't actually hot. some special effect and that you can breathe on Venus. I mean, all this nonsense.

And I tell Johnny was crazy to his face. I said, this is all, you know, absolute nonsense. So I don't see people taking John Lear as serious at that time. Now, before that, you know, whether years or whatever, John was a different person. And, you know, but as time went on, the things he said got crazier and crazy. easier. And, you know, I don't really see that being a threat to them. Yeah. So, well, my point was I think that, you know, maybe, and this is complete speculation, but it's the only sort of piece of puzzle that I can see fitting or at least help fit. Maybe Dennis had

something with you being hired. You know, maybe had something to do with you being hired. Why would Dennis want me hired? Well, if anything, it was, it was Teller. Right. Teller, obviously. Now, he obviously had weight. Yes. And he said, hey, there's this kid in Los Alamos and to give him a shot or whatever, you know, he would have said. Yeah.

And maybe that's all that was needed. Yeah. Maybe I just lucked out. But, I mean, why would Dennis want me hired? Well, maybe Dennis wanted to blow the lid off this thing. You know, he saw what you did. He for sure watched KLAS. He was, you know, oh my God.

And then he reached out to you and not in a threatening way, in a way that seemed sympathetic. You know, so for me, if you had a guy on the inside who wanted to blow the lid off this thing and you knew that he was associated with someone who knew very well, you know, the conspiracy world and everything else, you know, maybe he had something to do. do with like, yeah, you know, this guy, bring this guy in here or something. I don't know. It's a wild grasp that straws. I do understand. It's kind of a long shot, I think. But I mean, it's not impossible. And really, who knows? Right. Who knows why they hired me. There's a lot, a lot of more, a lot more qualified people than myself. But, you know, if they're looking for somebody really outside the box that's not going to follow protocol. And maybe that's what they were finally

fed up with. We're not getting anywhere with this and let's just get somebody a left field. I mean, that's probably the reason. I mean, much more likely than, you know, than my hairbrained conspiracy, but I just... We'll never know. Well, yeah. It could be, I'm sure it's most likely something neither of us are thinking about. I was just so compelled with the idea that this guy, Dennis, who, the same guy who'd stare at you for 20 minutes in that room. And that ride to S4 menacingly. It was creepy. Yeah.

I still have a picture of that in my mind. But he's sitting bouncing on the bus looking at me. Can't you look at something else? Weird. But it was a new job and, you know, unusual circumstances. He just don't want to say anything. So we just kind of. Yeah.

Weird and awkward that 20 minutes was. And there's not even a window to look out of us. So you just look at the back of the driver's head. So. But he's also the guy that. that was like, hey, come see this launch outside, come see this test flight, right? Yeah.

Mm-hmm. That doesn't seem, that seems out of character for a guy who. I don't know about that. Really? I mean, it was probably important for me to see the, you know, you have to see, look, we're bag engineering power and propulsion, and here's it in operation. Yeah.

So what I don't get is why we weren't informed earlier on. That's right. Said, you know, there's going to be attested two o'clock. you guys get your stuff done, be out there in the big hangar, and, you know, that. But instead, the craft was already outside, and Dennis came in, come on, you guys. So it's like it was a last minute thought. Now, that's what makes less sense to do you know. But that might be part of the reason, like, to keep it hush, hush, and kind of don't tell anybody until it happens type deal, maybe.

Compartmentalization and all. Yeah. And again, there might be another reason that neither of us are thinking about. Like maybe we're not supposed to know how it got out of the hangar. You know, I mean, something bizarre like that, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I don't know.

I had that ruminating. Like something about this Dennis Marianne character is enigmatic, to say the least, you know, from. A lot of people latched on to him. You know, it's been a lot of time looking for it. I guess they finally found him. But, I mean, for years, people, for some reason, that name really clicked and people went after. Because that's really the guy that would know a lot. Certainly, I'm a lot more than I do.

Yeah. I don't know. See, nobody tried to track down Barry. And he'd be great for technical information. I'd love to know everything Barry knew. Barry, if you're listening, please. Yeah, yeah. Reach out.

Could you imagine? What do you think Barry's reaction was to you? Boy, I don't know. What I was really concerned is that Barry would be, I mean, they'd focus some of their anger on Barry, you know, that he'd have, there'd be a price to pay. Because he was training me and, you know, and I don't know, I just, I hope that didn't happen. Yeah. Because it certainly wasn't my intention at all to cause trouble for anybody there. Of course, yeah.

But I don't know. I'm sure he wouldn't have been pleased about it. After all, he was so excited to have a new partner. Yeah. I mean, I kind of hinted around to Barry about, you know, wow, this is, all of this shouldn't be kept secret. You know, Barry never really wanted to talk about it, but it seemed like he was, he agreed with me, you know, without saying so. And in the back of my mind, I kind of hope that Barry might even follow me, you know, out. And, you know, after it was all out, maybe we just suddenly hear another voice from S4.

But, no, that was all a pipe dream. That must have been pretty disheartening to come out and to not have a follow-up. Did you expect? You know, I kind of did. I think I just hoped so much. It turned into expectation. Yeah. But I don't know if it was a realistic hope.

I just. I was worth a shot, I think, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'd feel hopeful as well. I think the same hopeful sentiment was probably shared by, you know, the likes of David Grush as well, who, you know, although went through a sort of dopser approved whistleblowing, still, you know, gave up his pension and put his,

own credibility on the line by coming out and saying, hey, we've recovered non-human biologics and we have craft and we're working on him. I think he probably felt the same, you know, and after that hearing. Yeah. Hats off to that guy. And I respect him for doing that, for sure. Yeah. And then crickets for him too, though. Yeah. You know, nobody from the program came out. Do you think that's due to people's fear or is it due to you know, the actual shutting down of people or both. That's tough to say. There's no doubt there's a fear aspect to it. Yeah.

But other, as far as shutting down people physically. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I would certainly lean more towards fear. I think they just put the fear of God on them and that's it. Boom. Well.

20 minutes in. I think those are the questions I wanted answered. You know, they've been, I've been, I've been, I've been, I've been ruminating with this, you know, and I was like, ah, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's one of those things where every time I have a guest here, the, um, the line of questioning that I, that I try to have is, because of the interview we had, is the second they leave, what do I, what do I go? I wish I would have asked them this. Right. And I really wanted to cover, especially the Chuck Payne stuff, which I thought was really interesting. Maybe someone will start looking for him now. I mean, like, if they put the effort they did into Dennis Mariani, they'll find him. I got to say, I looked myself. I try to research it myself. Unfortunately, there is a governor, I believe, by the same name. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Luigi told me that or something.

Yeah, yeah. Somebody did. And it's not him. Like, we've gotten confirmation. It's not him. We showed, I think we showed you a picture as well, and you're like, no. And so don't blow him up. Don't go blow his phone up.

Don't, you know, don't go threatening him or calling him out on social media. He's got his own thing going on. Oh, like, there's nothing. I mean, Chuck Payne was doing his job. Yeah. That's all. And he's doing it well. He just said, you know, so you can't, you can't harbor ill will towards these guys.

Yeah. You really can't. I mean, the guys that set up the program and whatnot, it's a different, different story. But, you know, security guards are just being security guards.

Yeah. Do you ever feel, I mean, this is something you've probably actually talked about in the past, but, you know, there was,

there was a lot of, like, fear, stress inoculation, but there was also, like, they gave you substances, right?

They gave you tests or they had you drink this weird, opaque, yellow fluid that tastes like pine saul. Did you ever feel like that might have just been part of the conditioning to have you think that this was all just some weird hallucination or something? No, no, weird hallucination.

And that was, no, I mean, the thing tasted more like vitamin B than anything. It was just an immune system booster because they had just done a whole grid for allergens. And they said there are just materials here. we have no clue as to what they are or what interactions they have with the human body. So it was just a, you know, a typical booster. Yeah. Immune system booster. But no, there's nothing that made me.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, yeah. I mean, this time is all, you know, we're talking about MK Ultra, all this type of stuff as well. But it's really easy to know when something is real versus when something isn't real. this, you know, people bring this up a lot and they bring up the, uh, oh, they probably just mess with his head. I'm like, no, no, they didn't mess with my head. It was a hundred percent

clear every single time I was there. There is no doubt. I'm, and there's no doubt in my mind as well, because I think, you know, we're all smart enough to know what's real and what isn't real. Yeah. That being said, you know, that still wouldn't stop them from tampering, you know, somehow with your memory or, you know, your mind while you're there, like, that's something that I feel like the dark recesses of these, you know, government factions wouldn't stop at doing. Is that ever considered across your mind that they might have been still? Well, yeah, the way they screw with you by, you know, inserting incorrect and misleading information into what they're telling you. Yeah. And it's specific to each person.

So if they start hearing that from somewhere else, they know exactly who said it. Right, yeah. Passage material. Yeah. And yeah, you never know. This is why I draw such a hard line between what I work on, what I saw, what I touched, and, you know, what I was told or read. So you never know about any of the reading material. You never know about any of the hearsay or anything you're being taught, if that's, unless it's back.

up by by hands-on stuff. Yeah. And I'm sure there's a lot of nonsense. Yeah. No, that was in there. Oh, definitely. Definitely. I would absolutely agree with that,

especially if they're trying to keep a lid on things. They got to throw some, you know, a wrench in the system here. They got to throw you off the scent a little bit, some red herrings and whatnot. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Even that's something even Barry mentioned. Yeah.

Oh, really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So Barry, because he seemed like the type that was really excited about. about this stuff too.

Like when... Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, he really was. He was so... What, he was so excited to have somebody to work... So it must have been a while between he had a partner before that because he was so excited to show me. It's like, you know, you got some new cool stuff on Christmas and you want to show your best friend something.

Wait, come here. Check this out. You know, so I remember that excitement. That was really cool. Yeah, he got to brief you, too, which is, like, kind of sweet. Do you think he was at all excited? obviously from like the physics side, but was he excited,

did you guys ever discuss like any of the blue document stuff together? No. He was, was he briefed on that? I, I don't know. You don't know?

No. So something that came up. No. Huh. No, we, I mean, you know, we had two things to do. Yeah.

And, uh, and, and that was it. You know, it's the power and propulsion system and it's, you know, uh, you know,

directive. One was be able to duplicate this with existing materials and directive two, be able to disable this system from a distance with existing materials. No budget limits any other one. Just find a way to do it. I think we've done either of those, probably the second one. I hope we did the second. I think the second one's more important. Yeah.

Wow. That's a weird thought. Maybe my last question here. You know, out of the three briefings that you were allowed to peruse during your document readings, you had Galileo, which was propulsion using gravity, you had sidekick, which was the weaponization of this technology. and then you had looking glass, which was something to do with time dilation and peering into time somehow forward, backwards, what have you. To me, you know, I've spoken to some people who have assorted history in, let's say, some of these black programs. Time seems like the big one. Yeah, but see, I thought about this.

You know, which one, if you had your choice, would you really be a problem with. Now, I'd stick where I was, because with gravity, you get time. Right, but that's what I mean. I feel like gravity is used in all three of these. Yeah, but there's the machine that makes the gravity. I see. So you're part of that. And then you're nowhere unless you can power it.

So if you've got the gravity propulsion and the power system, the other two. You got the other two. Those will come in time. But you can start with those two, and you'll never get to that one. So, yeah, I was where I wanted to be. Do you think we succeeded in at least, you know, using gravity in that way and to manipulate time or to peer into time in some way?

I don't know. I mean, you don't see it anywhere. If so, they're keeping it well covered. I've heard some, so people I know that have spoken to witnesses that are apparently in the program have talked about some weird interaction with a sphere that they called like looking glass, which was a sphere that they had to interact with consciously and could peer into time through consciousness-based interaction somehow. Wow. Okay. I was just wondering, like for me, like that, you know, you might have seen maybe the genesis of this program or at least. least like the baby steps of it.

Maybe that's where we're at now. That would be cool. Right. Yeah. That would be cool. I can only hope something like that's happened. Yeah. Hopefully that and not so much the directed energy stuff and all that other weird, you know,

weaponizing of alien technology. That's always going to be number one. You know, you got to let that go. Yeah. All right. Well, Bob Lazare, thank you so much for doing this. I know you had a long day today. And I really appreciate your time.

And I appreciate you candidly. answering these questions. And, you know, it's not, it's not always probably the most pleasant thing to go through all this, but I do appreciate you taking the time. And congratulations on, you know, getting your story out there through Project Gravitor and S4, the Bob was our story. And I look forward to seeing how the world changes once again after this story airs. Well, thanks for letting me come back. Thanks, Bob.