AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - Bob Lazar Meets Travis Walton for the First Time - The Flying Saucer Diner

Episode Date: June 26, 2026

Flying Saucer Diner Merch: https://www.area52.shopPatreon Exclusive Content: https://www.patreon.com/Area52investigationsTickets to the Live Show: https://itsprobablynothing.com/Bob Lazar (Area 51 / S-4) and Travis Walton (Fire in the Sky) finally sit down together for an in-depth, rare conversation at the Flying Saucer Diner. They compare their extraordinary experiences, discuss the beings they encountered, craft details, government secrecy, Hollywood’s dramatization of Travis’s abduction, physics, free energy, and what it all means for humanity.A candid, fascinating discussion between two of the most famous UFO experiencers of all time.

Hey, Travis. Hey, Bob. How's it going? No, not bad. I haven't seen you in a while. Yeah. How long it'll take you to get here? Quite a while. It was quite a trip, but I enjoyed the scenery. What do you've been doing these days? Just working around the house.

As far as UFOs, I'm concerned as little as possible. I hear you there. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Yeah, there. Can I offer you guys some coffee tea water? Oh, absolutely coffee. I have the tea, sugar only. Tea, sure.

If you want, we have a chocolate pie and an apricot pie. I can come back later. Avicat pie. Yeah, you want to be said that? Okay, sure. Never turn it down. Yeah, apricot times two. Okay.

Okay. Hey, I always wanted to ask you something. Yeah? The, um, yeah, the human-like beings that you saw. Yeah. What made you so sure that they weren't human? Well, the sort of rigid, pre-planned movements, the controlled movements.

Oh, so they didn't move smoothly like. Well, they moved like they should, but I'm in a panic, screaming, yelling, and everything. Sure. And they're just maintaining. They're cool, calm and collected and just on task. But physically, I mean, they just seem like. I think that was the intention, the plan.

Maybe to make you more comfortable things. Something that make me cooperate, yeah. Yeah, it was, I recently looked at Fire in the Sky, the movie. And in fact, I was trying to show my wife Joy your story. And holy cow, there is so much contradicting information about everything. Every single thing you look at tells a different story and they're all wrong. Yeah, well, I understand that, you know, Hollywood dramatizations are not documentaries, but I think they went a little too far afield.

And they knew it. How they knew it? Yeah, they didn't put the part aboard the craft in the copy of the script that they gave me. Really? Yeah. So, I mean, just the nuclear. They knew I weren't going to like that. The whole thing with you in the membrane and the dead bodies and them drilling in your eye, none of that.

They just fabricated all that. And you didn't know about that ahead of time. Right. That's unbelievable. Well, there's a few things that could be classified as a story device. The membrane over the actor's face, he's struggling to breathe, struggling to scream through it. I was, in my actual experience, feeling suffocated and, you know, how do you express that if you don't have the actor say something like, I can't breathe? So I get show it rather than tell it, but yeah

You said it was it really like a super humid environment where it was hard to breathe and Yeah It was it served the purpose of generating fear and that's probably as close as you can Get for what they did there What was interesting to me is the the size of the craft that you were in or if it was a craft or a base or whatever because when you exited, when you got away

and now I may have the story wrong myself when you walked out of the craft being led by this other being you were in some giant hanger with other crafts, right? Even the craft we were coming out of seemed bigger than the way I remembered it. and when I approached it. Did you think it was the same craft? It was the same shape.

Okay. But, you know, it's also the same shape as what you're reporting. I've always been struck by reports, descriptions of your craft resemble what we saw more than any other report that I've seen, you know. That's really interesting. I rarely comment on other events or other people's reports, but that's one that I've always found interesting and didn't mind saying before. What caught my attention,

I think one of the times you were describing the craft, it had archways in it. Is that correct? You saw some archways? Well, the doorways and connecting surfaces between wall and ceiling and that sort of stuff. weren't corners. They, you know, were rounded. But the craft itself, was it, the skin, was it made of archways? Was it like a, looked like a

support system? Well, I was, it looked very angular from outside from a distance. And my, I was preoccupied with the feeling of threat. Yeah, I'm, I'm sure you didn't have time really to study the architecture. Yeah, yeah. That's, hmm. Yeah, I thought they might have been similar in that way. But did you have any kind of feeling where that craft might be, what this big thing was?

Did it feel like it was, you know, you were on a base? I couldn't see outside. The light that was coming through the surface of the larger enclosure, Now, whether that was a building somewhere, maybe on Earth or somewhere else, or part of a larger craft. I don't know. I couldn't see outside, but it was a very natural colored light, kind of like sunlight. Oh, okay. Hmm.

It seemed natural, not artificial like I would. Yeah. Not extremely bright, but just like natural light. But it was large enough to hold, what was it, two or three? crafts in there with more room. Yeah, yeah. Again, I was proximate with where are you taking me? What's going on?

You know, I felt like I was suffocating, like I was dying, I was injured, and I was begging, pleading for explanations from this person that I think was probably selected for the purpose of reassuring me and getting my cooperation. I guess that would kind of work to some degree. Yeah, it did. But he never uttered a word. You never heard anything. No, he didn't respond.

None of them did. Even, you know, when I started to demand more of a response from them. That's really interesting. The time from when, well, I have a lot of questions. They're kind of jumbled in my mind. I'm here. Yeah. Yeah, I've heard so many theories about it, but when you guys, you know, all got out of the truck to see the craft,

everybody else got back and you stayed there? No, actually, I got out of the truck and none of the rest of them did. Oh, okay. So you just went out to investigate everybody else stayed behind. Yeah, and that kind of led to some. strange reactions. Steve, he was in the truck and he didn't get out. And his girlfriends would say,

Steve, how come you didn't get out of the truck? And he said, it's because I had stronger resistance to mind control. He's claiming that mind control made us get out of the truck, but he resisted. I said, Steve, the mind control was to make you stay in the truck. I was the one that was resisting it. Just kidding, you know, but it wasn't mind control, but he was trying to act like he had to come up with an excuse for why he didn't jump out too.

Yeah, he needed to be a tough guy. No, well, I wished I had done it like him and stayed in the truck. Yeah. So you got behind a tree stump or something to that effect? Yeah, man, yeah. And one of the theories I heard was, because the craft was about to take off. I think you said you heard a hum like it was powering up.

Yeah, it got louder. Yeah. The sound was already there. And then I think somebody was calling back in the truck, and you stood up, and then you got hit by, whether there was a beam, a bolt, or something from there, and you went flying. You go like 20 feet high or something like that.

Yeah, they were all screaming, swearing at me to get in the truck, you know, calling me crazy. Which was foolish, you know, I can't argue with that. Yeah, well, we all do crazy stuff at time. But getting through, them witnessing that, the getting hit by the bolt, flying in the sky, they assumed by the time you hit the ground, you were dead, which is why they took up. Yeah, they said, he's dead. He's dead. Let's get out of here.

That's what they tell me I wasn't there. Yeah, you were offline, so to speak. So the theory that I heard was, you know, from the aliens point of view, the craft was just taking off. You stood up. It just accidentally discharged on you and killed you. Yeah. And the reason they brought you on was more like an ambulance movie.

was just to bring you back and reanimate you. Have you heard that? An accident occurred because I made a foolish move, you know, standing up, closed the distance between me and it, and this discharge happened. Hmm. I can feel a strange charge in the air before I even got, you know. Oh, that's interesting.

So. But I didn't know whether it was from all these weird sounds it was making or, you know, something. some energy emanating from the craft itself. But when I stood up, that was when my head was the closest to the surface of it. And then the blast of energy. Now, I didn't see the energy, you know. You just stood up and bam, the lights on it.

The crew describes it in different ways. One guy described it as a foot wide beam, like a laser beam. another said it looked like a long blue flame so it was basically different words used to describe the same visual hey all it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair

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Oh, it was only like, you know, five feet, less than 10 feet. I was, okay. I thought, I don't know. I thought it was like 50 or 60 feet away. No, no, a lot closer than that. So you were right, right alongside the craft. So that's, hmm. The increasing sound and the motion scared me, and when I jumped for cover, cover happened to be closer to it.

So I got down behind the log there, and the screams to get out of there, get back in the truck, got louder, and I didn't need to be told. I was sort of torn between the fear of... Being discovered, maybe. Coming out from under cover or. But I was going to run back to the truck and bam. Just felt this electric shock, stunning force go through my body. If you ever been hit playing football or something, you didn't see it coming, that's stunning sort of, it's a feeling of being stunned.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh. And, of course, I know what electric shock feels like, too. Oh. If you're enjoying your time at the Flying Saucer Diner, take it with you from hats to teas. Mugs to this high-quality canvas apron, available now.

So no idea of the time. Once you were out, you were out, and the next thing you knew, you woke up inside. Yeah. You know, one of my wonders is, about five days is such a long time to be gone. You know, where did the time occur? Did they bring you right back into the craft then? I'd like to know.

Yeah. Was I partially revived immediately and then I woke up much later or somewhere in the middle of the five days? or was that waking up on board the craft almost immediately after I was taken aboard. Yeah, and what's done over five days? There's no, you have no physical effects, I mean, after all these years. Well, there was one artifact, brainwave scan. Oh, really?

Didn't know you had that done? Yeah, world famous. brain trauma center, Barrow's neurological, did the scam. It's where Muhammad Ali went when he developed problems with brain.

And I still have the chart, the printout. Because there was such hysteria and just massive attention, they put me into Barrows under an assumed name. Really?

Yeah, to avoid media attention, which was fortunate because it sort of served as a double blind on the readings that they were going to get on the brain waste. That's a good point. So they found this unusual pattern. The technician described, and I still have the report, but it's an alternating wave moving from front to back, something along that line.

It's really curious. I'd love to see a comparison between that and maybe someone who's had other kinds of head trauma or electric shock. Maybe somebody who's been hit by lightning. But I had a subsequent brainwave scan. that where that was no longer there. So it may have been some residual effect

of the healing that I was provided. When did you have, I mean, from the time of the incident to the brainwave scan, was that... All this stuff was almost immediately, you know. Oh, it wasn't months later, it was... Right. The doctors that were in on this, you know,

were there the next day. And Dr. Harder, who performed regressive hypnosis, I was so lucky that it was him that did it, because he did it in a style, a technique, to where I was put under as an observer to what was happening to me rather than the experiencer. And the reason I'm in hindsight grateful for that is because one of the crew members went through hypnosis where he was directed to relive it. And it was a hugely traumatic for him.

I mean, the description of his body movements. And the reaction was, it was probably pretty horrible for him to re-experance it. It was not necessary to get at the memory of what happened. Did you find anything out through hypnosis that you didn't? I mean, sometimes it reveals some things here and there. It served a purpose in the sense that what I recalled, I hadn't I was unable to communicate

I hadn't even told my brother what had happened I couldn't I was just so extremely traumatized so it removed that to where I could actually talk about it without secondary negative effect

you know that really aided in my recovery a lot Dr. Harder was amazingly calming in his technique. I got rid of a lot of that fear that I was living with every day. Perfect timing. There's sugar there as well as you need. Oh, thank you.

Thanks. Well, that's good to hear that something helps because that's a monumental trauma. Yeah. But it didn't reveal anything that you had forgotten or couldn't pull out of mere memory. No. Okay, so everything was pretty much while you were conscious. Yeah. You remember everything pretty clearly.

Hmm. In a sort of cryptic way, you know, I had to conclude certain things based on events. You know, this must be the case. But I do try to distinguish between what I'm directly experiencing, perceiving, and what I figure probably explains what I experienced. Are you still in contact with any other guys? What you said? I tried to stay in contact with all of them and write me.

You said a few of them have died, right? Yeah, they did. And I contacted Dwayne Smith, and I said, hey, I'd like you to come out and speak with me. And he says, sure, you know, I said, but I'm looking really terrible. I'm having my teeth redone. So after I get my teeth redone, I'll come out and speak with you. And then he passed away right after that. Oh, sorry to hear that.

Yeah. It was sad. I did tape the conversation, though, and hear that. this many years later, you know, his memory was fresh and, you know, in sync with whatever, the rest of us. Were there any hard feelings between you and any of the other boys? I think some, you know, it developed over time. At first, Mike would come out and speak with me and Steve.

Then Steve started to get sort of resentful about it. He was asked by one interviewer, was there anything you would change about the experience if you could? And he said, yeah, crank up the voltage. Like he's wishing it. It killed me on a stay dead or something. I don't know. It wasn't funny to me. Wow. So we quit coming out with us when the girls would say, how come you didn't get out of the truck?

and then he developed he tried to come up with alternate explanations okay you know I mean at first you know every time he got a new girlfriend

he'd take a new polygraph test and prove it all over again and then he started trying to say well it happened just the way we described it but it was really the government and not aliens

made it easier to cope with I think that was a sort of a Well, yeah, it's more of it down-to-earth explanation. A way that he doesn't have to be afraid at night kind of a thing. And one other thing that developed with Steve, I felt sorry for him, was that I was told by the other crewman that he was one of the ones who was crying when the lawman came. Well, that was fine with Steve at first.

Oh, and he doesn't want that spread around. And then his cousin, I think his uncle, one of the relatives. started teasing him about being a big cry baby. And so he got real angry about, no, I wasn't crying. I never cried. I was strong the whole time. And so that was his big beef. He demanded that I have the book reprinted to take that out.

I said, look, Steve, I wasn't there. I was just going by what the others told me. Yeah. Mike cried. He's not ashamed of that. He admits to that. Yeah, that's very cry-worthy. Yeah.

I said, I cried, might cry. You know, I don't know how many of the others, but he's not a cry, baby. He was strong. He just doesn't know it. I ask that because sometimes, you know, when you, especially once you start getting a lot of attention, obviously you got the most attention of any of the guys there. Yeah.

You know, hard feelings develop. I had that in friends. and acquaintances that when, you know, documentaries are being made about me, hey, you didn't include me and, you know, what the hell? And, well, you really weren't part of it. Yeah, but I knew you back then, you know, and then the hard feelings started. I'm sorry, I can't help it, you know. Yeah.

When Steve said, crank up the Volties, and they quit coming out with me, there was jealousy. I can understand being a part of something so incredible. and then media or curious people have questions and they rush right past the witnesses

to the main guy and I can't help it. Yeah. So a lot of jealousy developed with at least Steve and Mike. And then, well then, you know, in my case, then you start getting the detractors

that start looking for those people, anybody that was close to you, that has any negative thoughts and they, you know, hey, can you give us some dirt on them or just trying to create a narrative that contradicts you and it's, uh... Yeah, it makes them easier to manipulate and some of that happened, you know, one detractor. Uh-huh. Track Steve down.

He, he, uh, had changed to his real, um, had changed to his real, name, the tractor took him out to dinner and tried to talk him into taking a $10,000 bribe to say it was all made up. Well, Steve got a free dinner, but he didn't get $10,000. And that sort of pressure was something that was used on Mike, too. Did Steve tell you that right after it happened? Yeah. other researchers also, you know, interviewed him and asked about things like that.

But that's to be expected, but you would think, man, you're part of something like this, mess it up by trying to do something to attack somebody just because you're not the middle of the story. Oh, come on, you know, I wish I wasn't. Look, the movie was about the crew boss. I wasn't there for most of the movie, so the actor who played me had a minor role, the crew boss. That's a good point. And some of the other people on the crew had a lot more worldwide attention than me.

I was just the guy that happened to. A lot of times gone by, I mean, decades. What year was that? In 1975. It was 75. Yeah, I mean, holy cow, that's a long time ago. Is this ever enter your mind anymore, or is it just people asking you that kind of brings it back? Yeah, well, I'm constantly asked about it.

So, yeah, as much as I try to forget it, I get reminded a lot. Are you recognized when you go out? That happens, yeah. Are you wondering if that's why I grew my beard back again? Yeah. Time goes by. But, you know, over time, the debunkers have sort of crumbled away being self-discredited and more positive evidence comes up, you know, scientific investigation at the site and those

sorts of things. But I guess debunkers are always a part of it. They are. I think they're just trying to, like, anytime there's something of notoriety happening, You always have people that are just, will grab onto the coat towels so they can get dragged along with it. And if something's getting a lot of attention, they go, oh, no, I know this, the true story, this is a bunch of nonsense.

Well, as support from my case grew over time, investigators and media started wanting me to come in on other cases. And I had my hands full with my own. case. And I knew that if I gave into that, if I started commenting, okay, which cases are the good ones, which ones are, you know, it would never end. I would be put in the position of passing judgment on people. I said, that's not right. What I objected to so much in my attackers with that they hadn't done the research. If you can't research the case thoroughly, you're not entitled to make opinions.

However, you know, in your case, I sort of broke that rule. People who express negative things, I can't break my rule of supporting other cases I did say.

But the description of the craft that Bob Lazar saw is the closest to what we saw than any other case I've ever heard of. And then there were other silly arguments I had to shoot down because they were just so silly.

Well, Bob can't be telling the truth because I checked the phone book at Area 51, and he's not in the phone book. And I say, come on. It's secret. They don't put the number in the... What's in there? Bob Lazar, Secret Department, you know?

That was the silliest attack. One of the silly. But, you know, I met some people say they used to go out and party with you guys in the desert before you ever came out. And they said, Bob was telling us that story way back then before anybody knew anything. So I consider that something that really supported your credibility. Yeah, it's, I don't know. There's a lot. Well, they knew you.

to be employed at Area 51. Yeah, I have had, I was fortunate enough to have George Knapp, that investigative reporter from Las Vegas, so interested in the story, he was able to verify, you know, some things here and there. I mean, he found my phone number in the Los Alamos phone book at the lab, and I was able to take him there and show him around. But it wasn't under Boblazar secret project?

No, no, no. But, yeah, I don't know. I guess I don't want to get off on a whole weird tangent. But a lot goes through your mind when you start reliving all that stuff. I'm guessing you're kind of like I am. I don't really have any interest in UFOs or something. stories and things. I don't follow them, but whether you like it or not, people tell you stuff, so you begin to hear, oh, I've heard that name, I've heard about that incident, and, you know,

that kind of thing. But I was never really interested in the topic. I mean, before that, I never even believed in it. I thought, you know, there were just either experimental government craft or something like that, but, you know, being involved in the project certainly changed my mind. Well, the reality of it is, it's not like some bizarre side story to life. It's just what it is. I mean, you know, as traumatic and disrupting as it was to my life, there's nothing mystical or magical about it, you know, it's not anything to go cultish about. It's

just the way it is, you know, and it's people don't understand why my attitude towards them, going from invading monsters, you know, the attitude they had to something a little more, well,

a big picture, you know. You know, just in my life, lifetime, the increase in understanding. You're from the 70s? The size and the age of the universe. What's the name of that new space telescope? The James Webb Telescope. Yeah, the James Webb is out there getting a clear view of things.

The story is they pointed it at the emptiest spot in the sky and could see hundreds of galaxies, not just. not just stars, entire galaxies. You know, the Milky Way is one galaxy, the one we live in. And yet, the size and scope of the universe was expanded so much by the James Webb telescope because it's far bigger. And it's not just everything's moving away from us,

which I think was an artifact of, what they thought they were seeing. What makes you think that? Because that implied that there was a center to the universe and that, you know, it had edges. And now they're going to have to face the fact that it's infinite. I think it's much bigger than they're even thinking now. I mean, you know, 50 years ago, you know, if you looked on a map,

of the known universe. It was about that. James Webb made it bigger, and I think it's even larger than that. But like they said, from assuming measurements are accurate, everything's not moving away from a central point. Everything's moving away from everything else.

And the only situation where that occurs is if you take a balloon, make a bunch of dots on it, and then blow it up, everything moves away from everything else. So it's almost like we're on the skin of something. Well, yeah. I mean, at least that's the way it exists in my mind to deal with it.

It could be possible that that is an artifact of the amount of size and distances involved here that gives the illusion that that's the case. It could very well be a big illusion, too. What if our measurements, the red shift and what we're using to gauge distances, what if that's not accurate, then it kind of throws off everything that we're... Well, maybe you could explain this to me. Maybe I'm not bright enough, but say there's a beam of light going right here between us. they're saying it's 186,000 miles per second

and nothing in the universe can go faster. Now, if you were traveling along that beam, I'd say half the speed of that beam and shown the light forward, what's going to happen? The beam that you're shining is obviously the speed of light plus the half speed that you're on. Yeah, but it doesn't work that way.

And that's what they're saying. It makes no sense at all. But that's the way it is. Okay, if you say so. Yeah, yeah. It's relative. They call it relative. Yeah, it's...

Relative speed. You know, if you're on a train and you want to calculate the speed of a bullet that you fire the speed of that bullet relative to the ground outside is the speed of the bullet plus the speed of the train. And you're saying, but with light, that's a special case. It's always the same speed no matter what. Okay.

All right. Have it. It's like an article of faith. It's not logical. Well, I mean, it kind of depends how you look at it. But the rules change when you get to maximums and minimums, you know, when you go really small and get into the quantum era, all of a sudden the rules don't apply. And it's a whole new set of physics. And it's, and look, we really don't

know for sure exactly how anything works. I've, you know, there have been old theories that, you know, the light really isn't even moving, that it's just like a river. And everything's already moving at that speed. And I mean, it's difficult to completely prove what we think. There's a lot of theories, and there are a few hard proofs to back them up. So to a degree, there's faith that's this is involved. Oh, there's, you know, the edges of physics get into some. Really.

Can I get you guys another refill? Magical thinking. Maybe one more. One more, yeah. Would you like some water as well? Uh, sure. Yeah. Yeah.

And I noticed, did you guys leave your briefcase down there under the table? Oh. Well, you know, you have to adjust and say, okay, there's really no such thing as a photon. Okay. Have it your way. I take it that's not yours Well It either is or it isn't

But see that's what happens when you get into Exotic physics It's magical thinking Right And the The isms The platitudes Are a product of

allowing people to get comfortable with things that otherwise don't add up. Do you trust ladder in physics? Well. You think there's a lot of holes in it? The conclusions are hard and fast. If they could just add as if, it's as if this beam of light is this and this speed is being registered in this way. But you can explain it however you want, but

Here's your one of your sake. Thank you. Things that are just contrary to common sense and basic logic. Yeah, it's hard to digest that stuff. Don't carry a lot of weight with me. I know that, you know, thousands of hardcore physicists would disagree with me. No, no, that's the way it is.

Get on that beam of light, go three-fourths of the speed of it, shine that beam of light, and the beam of light that you're shining isn't going the speed plus the speed. Is you, okay? Yeah. Happen's your word. Well, the bottom line, no one has actually done it before, so there's no direct proof that that happens. So this briefcase that someone left here, open the files.

Spooky. I'm perfectly aware that all of these very knowledgeable and well-educated people will say, no, you got it wrong, you know. No matter where you are on that speed of light, on that beam of light, it's still going the same speed. Mm-hmm. A bit your way. Yeah. Everything's relative except light.

That's what they're telling me. Wow. This is, uh... That's an old... powered car I made. A long time. I was back in... Oh, it was in Los Alamos, yeah.

It's like a lot of stuff on me. What kind of gas minds you get? You get jokes like that. Yeah. This is my W-2 from Department of Naval Intelligence. That's another thing that really, although I don't follow UFO lore too much,

but more and more you hear about sightings, stuff that are either over the ocean, overwater, underwater. Coming out of the water. Yeah. And I was paid. And then apparently the Navy was the ones, you know, running the show. So I just, I wonder if they were the first ones to run into the craft.

And they were just left in control of it. Because if anything, you thought it would be the Air Force. Wow. There's proof. I didn't need proof. I know you really worked there. And there's, uh, Oh, these are the archways I was talking about.

Okay, yeah, it may have had that. I just, it was not studying it. Did the craft glow or like that? Yeah, it was glowy. What, do you remember the color? It was kind of a soft towards a yellow end of the spectrum. Okay. It seemed to hear that a lot.

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I had a friend named John Lear that it was a good guy, but he used to have some really weird beliefs. He believed people lived in the sun and all kinds of crazy things. And I drew that picture for him. And so that's... Well, he had a very famous father. Yeah, a brilliant, brilliant guy. And, I mean, he invented the autopilot, the 8th.

track tape, a bunch of stuff. Later, John later. Yeah, I met John later. He did come with us a couple times out to visit. This is what made me believe, at least part of the Billy Meyer story, because that looks so much like the craft. Yeah. And does it kind of look familiar to you?

I mean, it looks so much like it. But, you know, I think my case, and even your case, contributed to the idea that UFOs are all flying disks. But no, I mean, some of them are circular. Yeah. Some of them are triangular. Yeah, these days. I wonder if just time has gone on and just like car models,

things have changed or maybe the technology has changed or maybe you're seeing visitors from somewhere else now that have their own. Yeah. Well, I know people that I believe that saw them that were, they call it tick-tac shake, but, you know, it's just sort of a capsule, sort of like a vitamin pill or something. Yeah. Like a sphere would be if you stretched it out. They call that tick-tac, but I'm sure the candy manufacturer don't appreciate the analogy.

Yeah, they should ride the wave and make a... UFO packaging or something. Do you? Is there anything away for you? Make this hot. Okay, sure. And, yeah, there's a gentleman over there that said there was two folders in the briefcase. We have just found number two.

Wow. Oh, this looks like you. And there's Travis's safe down-to-earth judgment. This is all you. Yeah. Was that your car? Yeah. Nice car.

Yeah. I think it would go over 150 in a quarter mile. Really? Yeah, it was incredible. Okay, so that wasn't stock. You did some... No, it had over 500 horsepower from the factory, but it had enhancements on it beyond that. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it looked like you were somewhat of a daredele dirt bike. You're into fighting, too. Yeah. My first three bouts, I won by knockout in the first round. No kidding. Yeah. And, you know, it was just a minor excursion into boxing. I was mostly into the Asian martial arts, various styles at the time.

Now I can really see you come out fighting when you're on that table and jumping off. Oh, so this is, you know, the hangar or other ship. Yeah. And now I'm wondering, was this, am I assuming the shape? Because I could only see it from this side. If there was, if it was more elongated, I wouldn't know. Because I, you know, wasn't studying it. I just looked over quickly as we left this large enclosure.

And this very smooth, chrome. thing reflecting everything around it. So chrome. So it was really... Polished metal, yeah. Okay, I didn't realize that was the configuration. So you came out of the craft here. It seemed bigger at this point.

So it could have been a bigger craft. I don't know. And then went into yet another room where they rendered me on a... conscious. How big, well, yeah, you wouldn't know. I'm just wondering how big of a diameter you thought that was, but it would be hard to say with this I found fascinating. The chair, did you ever sit in the chair or just, again, there's conflicting stories. I squeezed into it, yeah. Did you go? Okay. Yeah, and some of the films they have, you just touch it and, and you

saw the star pattern pop up. Was there a screen in front of you, or did you see it all around you? It was all around me. Yeah, thank you. So it wasn't something that was projected. It just appeared all around you? Yeah, but it was only visible while I was in the chair or next to it. If I was farther away from it in any way, it was just dark.

Oh, all right. The stars just appeared, or apparently they were just visible. whoever was in the chair. That's interesting. Movement moved the star pattern, but not... Was there a joystick or something? Yeah. Or was it? Okay.

But not relative to each other, the whole thing moved, you know? Hmm. Which was kind of affected my balance for a second, you know? Because everything around me, every reference point of where I was standing was moving. Did you feel that was like in real time looking outside or did you feel like this is more of a map room? No, I was in a panic. I wanted out and I was just looking for a button to open a door and get me out of the room. Yeah, I'm sure that's the case.

Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So here's. The arches that you were talking about, see, from my point of view, I was looking more to the bottom side. So the top surface could have been. But it looked like that?

Yeah. And that was giving off a light. It wasn't burning me. It didn't seem hot in that sense. Did the guys in the truck ever relate to you where it looked like the beam came from? Was it just the side of the ship or something in particular? Well, they were, you know, pretty much saying that. Okay.

That was also the closest point of surface next to me. So if it was some kind of accumulated energy discharging, it would just be because I was close to it. Now, the artist put a tree there that... Yeah, I don't give it. It would have been the point of discharge. The grounding effect would have gone through it. I was the closest thing. So before you got knocked out, you're crouching behind there and you hear the thing powering up.

While it's powering up, did you perceive or see anything? Was there any kind of distortion outside or any light or glow around the ground or anything that would... No, just the vibration. You could feel as much as, say, feel in your body, the high, high, high, frequency that seemed to change with the position of your head and the really low rumble that you just felt your bones more than through your ears. I can imagine that must have been just frightening of something. I was, oh, what did I do?

What did I do? You know, I'm this close. I was thinking it was going to shoot off before I even got close. You know, that was a normal thing. You encounter wildlife. and you jump out and it's going to be running away from you. Right. Jump suits.

They're always wearing jumpsuits. Yeah. So did they... Well, except in scary invading monsters movies. They're always naked. Yeah. Because then you get to show more. You have to show the scales.

The grueling monster effect, yeah. Right. So the eyes, a lot of times in other witnesses and report, solid black eyes, but these were... Yeah, they had pupils. And I think it had to do with the size of their eyes, made to gather light, extremely dim light, in a low light environment.

But in this ambient light here, it would be way too bright for them, an eye that size. So I think it was some kind of a contact lens sort of effect that may have been biologically developed, to protect the eye or maybe something they insert or something. Sunglasses on a contact lens, yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, that kind of thing.

Was it brightly lit in this room? Well, it hurt my eyes to look at it, but it was pretty dim. Hmm, okay. But yeah, you're looking, feeling like your back, you're looking straight at the light. Straight up at it. Is that about the right height? Yeah, I think they were shorter than that. You know, you got to judge the perspective of who's standing where.

It was shorter than four feet, but... But no noise, never used their mouths or anything. And it didn't express emotions, just were afraid of you. Well, I have a theory about that, you know, that if they truly are telepathic, then facial expression is obsolete. They can say everything. to each other without moving the muscles in their face at all. Do you felt that they felt your intentions?

I don't know. You were a combative and they started back. If they felt anything, they felt sheer terror and panic and a threat that were in response. But they get out, you grab the rod or whatever that was. They put their hands up and they just calmly walk out and turn. and right and go down. They didn't run like they were afraid of you. Well, they were, they scurried pretty quickly.

Oh, they did? Okay. Again, some of the other stuff I saw had them, you know, calmly walking out. I'm surprised they even turned their back on you with you. No, they just, you know, made a run for it. And, of course, the physique's here, male and female, are quite over-emphasized.

That's really interesting. Artist impression. Yeah, but these are clearly human compared to anyone else on the country. And, you know, interesting, you've got a hair length differential longer for the female. That's good. Yeah, that's very earth-like. Earth custom, you know. But if they were trying to simulate something that would accept as human, that would be the way they'd do it.

It's interesting that they'd have two species working together. Well, I don't know if they were. working together. I don't know. They knew at that point, my hysteria prevented telepathic control or communication, and I'm not going to cooperate with them, and I'm going to die if they don't get me somewhere else for further treatment. So they needed something I would trust. Now, whether this was some kind of creation, like a mechanical device, or something they need. a species that looks very human. I don't know.

They sure looked like people to me. I grabbed my arm, I felt like a person who would grab you. And I think somebody said you described these guys as really strong when they held on to you. Yeah. Well, I was in a weakened condition, but once they got me down on the table, you know, I started to fight. them and I was out number two. And whatever this device was, as soon as they put that on you, you were out. Probably some sort of anesthetic, you know, it's no hose connected to it, but maybe it was

generated from the part that was being held. Now, I was describing these craft, I just, you know, could glance over and see them, whether there was, whether they were actually disc-shaped or more, more. elongated, I don't know, because I was very concerned with where you taking me. Yeah, I can't imagine the feeling of walking out there and now you're in this completely strange place. There's other... And he's not answering any questions yet, but I was controlling that because the helmet may have been preventing him from hearing me or speaking.

So these guys didn't have helmets. No. Just this is the only guy that had. Yeah, so, you know, when they got me out of here into the room where these people were, I was renewing my efforts to get an answer. No helmet as an excuse, I need to know, what are you doing to me? What is this? What were those creatures and all those kind of things, just babbling?

and getting no response. Just force me down and put that over my face. Now, probably my guess is to continue whatever medical treatments might have been underway when I regain consciousness. How did you feel at this point, did you feel like you were still in pain and damaged from the shock? Yeah. The air seemed cooler and easier to breathe out. And I was surprised that the surface, you know, was so easy to, it wasn't slippery, you know, as steep as it was, I could walk down it.

And in a weakened condition. Like a close-up of one of the eyes. Oh, so here, yeah, here's that room we were talking about. Okay, so that's where the guy with the helmet. that came on. And actually, the viewpoint from right here was probably black. You could only see stars of you're standing over here, but I don't know.

I couldn't be two places at once. What do we go out here? So there's two related cases. Bill Herman, 1978, Jesse Rosenberg, 1954. I haven't heard of any of that. But then you and I are not students of the genre. No. No, but that does look like there are guys there.

Oh, and as do these guys. Oh, yeah. So these are cases reporting. Yeah, similar things to you. And this was after mine and this one was before mine. I wonder. This looks kind of like I'm more in 1950s. Oh, now I got it wrong.

This is 78. So this is the one that's after yours. And this is from the 50s. Interesting case, huh? Like I said, I haven't studied any other cases. Hair styles are interesting. Hmm. Well, what else we have in here?

Not sure what that is I'll let you push the button Is it ticking? I don't know I'm kidding Oh this is a simile of my badge there Wow

It had no other surprises in there Area 52 card Did you push the button? No Do you want me to? Well we might I'll put it closer to you

Yeah Okay Not sure what that did, but hopefully nothing serious. Well, interesting dossier there. Mm-hmm. You know, there's so many UFO stories, and I've heard other people say that before. There's so many crashes.

And, you know, you hear the detractors say, you know, a very valid point. They travel these great distances, and they come here and just crash, you know, left and right. And how can there be so many crashes with, you know, advanced technology? That's a good question, yeah. It seems unfortunate that they aren't better drivers than that. Yeah, if they are. I mean, there's just so many theories, so many thoughts, and so much incorrect information.

Yeah. I had people recently said they wanted to make a film or documentary on me, and they said, we're going to send you the script. I said, you have the script, and, you know, they sent it to me. And I look through it, I said, that has nothing to do at all with what happened to me. I said, well, we got it all off the Internet. Yeah, well, that doesn't mean it's real. Some very creative people on the Internet.

Yeah, it's... Unfortunately. Yeah, it's an incredible amount of incorrect information. But some of the theories kicked around are fascinating, you know, some that say that they're not even from space or other planets. They're just, they're us from the future coming back to check on ourselves. I've heard that theory, and I'm not going to argue about it because I'm just sticking to what I experienced. Right, yeah.

You tell me. Yeah, that's the standing I take. It's, you hear plenty of things. It might be told things, even from officials, but you just have to stick with what you know you felt you touched, you saw, and draw the line there, because everything else is guesswork. Yeah.

Or somebody's theory or whatever. It may or may not be true, but I didn't personally experience it, so I try to just stick to my story and not talk or study the phenomenon. For one thing, You and I both know there's a mixture of things that are going on. Some of them are hardcore nuts and bolts, you know, those like you and I. And also other things that are U.S. government attempts to create something that will pass. and there's also misidentified objects.

There's complete hallucinations and made-up fabrications. Sometimes people just see a light in the distant sky and their enthusiasm and emotions embellish, I guess, is the word. So there's mistaken identification too. I think the hardcore events are actually a small percentage. I think a very small percentage because the others so outweigh it and it muddies the water so much. Maybe intentionally. I wondered about that.

Do you suppose all these stories are floating around out there just to, for camouflage. Oh, I'm sure some are. There's no doubt in my mind that some are intentionally there to confuse things. Or just stories put out about witnesses or... I don't know. Do you have a feeling about the intention of the government's position relative to the public? You know, we know that it...

way back used to be totally nile. It's all nonsense. Everything's made up or crazy stuff, and there's no such thing. And the longer they stuck with that, the more the credibility was being damaged on their part rather than on the witnesses. Right. So they finally had to say, okay, let's concede something in order to reestablish our credibility. So late on a Friday, they say, here's gun camera footage from this jet.

This is something that has powers beyond anything we have. We don't know what it is. It's not ours. And, you know, like I say, late on a Friday, a news day, news goes dead until Monday. Monday came around and no reaction. What? Wait a minute. We just made this earth-shadering admission.

So the government actually issued that admission, quote-unquote, twice. Late on a Friday, gun camera footage. Look, there is something that has maneuverability beyond anything we have. It's not ours. We don't think it's other countries either. And they left it open, though. I'm just saying what they said. They just said this is something that we don't have.

So, of course, that would immediately raise the fear of what it is, what if it is something possessed by other countries. I personally don't believe that's the case, but I don't know, so it could be anything. I think they have a long way to go to get credibility back. They've made the mistake of lying for way too long. And I think that started a long time ago. And, you know, as I've said, you could, and others have said, too, it's, you know,

if you want to keep the technology secret, we all understand. That's powerful technology. But you don't have to keep the story secret. Okay, hey, we found something from somewhere else. They consider themselves responsible. And if there's a high-tech thing that they can't thwart, you know, That's their role. We're here to defend you against whatever might be there.

You would think it would create alarm. I don't think it is a threat. But on the other hand, the military's justification for even looking at this is a threat. So they can study it and be involved in and all that. if they said it wasn't, then why are they even messing with it? Well, right. So maybe that is allowed to languish the idea that it's a threat. But I don't think it's a threat.

You know, these reports have been around for decades. Even longer than that. I think a technology that advanced, if they wanted to remove us and become the dominant species on this planet, we'd never know what hit us. They could do it overnight. I agree with you 100% there. So I don't see a threat to worry about.

But I also don't think of any sinister intention on the part of the government with the position they've taken. They're forced to do what they're doing. Well, it's their job. Well, so many people. people say it's our government we can tell them throw open the books and tell everybody what's going on well um we have a couple of other superpowers on the planet that might love to know what we've harvested and uh is it something that they can overcome or not and um so as long as we keep our

stuff secret um they don't dare make a move could be some kind of a detente sort of balance of power thing that we need to maintain that secrecy just for national security. And you couldn't say, well, I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Because are they really giving you the full story or are they just doing, giving you some token pieces of information to get at what? you're holding. You know that's what they would do. Yeah, everybody's going to hold that. And so it's probably a pretty good safety chain on the whole mess to have the books slam tight.

A lot of people don't understand me on that. You know, what? You know, are you taking the government side? Well, in this case, I think their secrecy is justified and necessary. Yeah, I still, I agree with that. that, but I think they could still just loosen their belts a little bit. Well, in admitting that there's something, which they've done, and the public says, well, that's not enough.

They're saying, yeah, so what else is new? A big deal, you know. We want more. Like free energy. Can't do that. Well. You know, it would destroy the monetary systems of the planet to have free energy. What do you think would happen overnight if energy could be free?

Just that. Well, we'd have a big problem. Well, especially if... We'd have a big problem. Any big leap in technology would really collapse our economy. Yeah. Even if we could... Even if they didn't weaponize it, which they would immediately.

How can we use this to defeat our enemies? Yeah, that's going to be step one. is turn it into a weapon. But any advanced technology, even if we could teleport from place to place or jump like these guys do, great distances, where you don't need cars,

suddenly if you don't need cars, planes, or the post office or anything, you can get anywhere you want to do immediately. Nobody has a job. Everything's a support service for those or part of those. Yeah. Same thing with energy. The whole world economy.

Yeah. So I don't know what you do with really advanced technology. It's too big. I mean, technology could be too good to release. Yeah. I think the situation, we're stuck with it. People need to be far more understanding than they are to be granted much more than what they're getting. You know, we fancy ourselves as civilized people, you know, we leave the building here, and we drive down the streets and everything's fine, but the truth is, from the alien's point of view, the natives are getting restless. So we're a bunch of savages constantly at each other's throat, killing each other at phenomenal rates. How many thousand this week? Come on.

You know, they can even talk about that on TV. You know, that's not incredibly alarming? Not anymore, no. Now it's just something. Well, the aliens see it all. And not the polished, optimized side. So, aside from being shot out, just seeing us how we behave towards each other, I can understand perfectly why they would not come down.

and share advanced technology with us. That would be a foolish thing to do. That's like giving a three-year-old a loaded gun. Yeah, exactly. I make the same move they did. But, of course, it makes you wonder what they're doing here. Is it just a, is it a Disneyland thing, or you should stop by Earth and check out the natives there?

Well, is there really something? The Europeans started exploring the world. They encountered cultures that were, you know, basically in the Stone Age, and the contact was very destructive. They weren't ready for all that came with it, especially not things like modern firearms and whatnot. Yeah, advanced technology contact is always destructive. It's never worked out well in history.

But does that mean that we're just left to stew in our? own juices. I think the aliens have a strategy. This is just my own theory. They observe our behavior. And I've made them advance the theory that UFO sightings are not accidental, where they are just, oh, humans spotted us again. We're going to have to be more careful. You think they're intentional? I think they're intentional. You know, I think they do everything they're doing here and remain undetected. But what's allowed to be seen is to, as a reminder, you know, a hint. They're just a tease?

Yeah, things could be a lot better if it would just get our act together. Hmm, that'd be great if that was accurate. it. Well, just the awareness that there's a better way, a different way, a more advanced way, could maybe inspire some leaders to want to pull us in that direction, make us compatible with more advanced societies. But a bunch of savages at this point. It's going to be a different set of leaders, I think. I don't think anyone's thinking along those lines at the moment anyway.

You're not much of a coffee drinker, I don't know. No. I just drink a hot beverage to keep my vocal cords from getting hoarse. Did you ever drink coffee? I mean, when you were younger? Back when I was working at the paper mill, I went graveyard shift with every third shift. Go to work at midnight.

You got to stay awake somehow. So that was the first time I really drank coffee. My mother was a coffee drinker, but I never drank it until I started doing shift work. That was just to survive graveyard, the midnight shift. Yeah, I can usually have two cups on that. the third one, I started getting shaky. I'll definitely do it. This spring, denim gets a softer, lighter update.

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And that's fine and dandy, you know, no problem. Well, they're your theories, you know. And I'm the same way. I draw a hard line between what I know, what I experienced, and what I believe might be true and what I've heard from others. I don't let them ever cross over. It's really, there's just so much incorrect information to dig through. It would be great to know what's accurate and what's not.

Have there been that many crashes? are all those abduction stories real or not? Certainly some are the Betty and Barney Hill story. You've probably heard that. And I firmly believe that occurred. I firmly believe, you know,

what happened to you occurred. And there are so many other instances. It would be great to know. Well, I had an instance that happened when I was probably first grade or, you know, when I was very, very young, that I was awakened in the middle of the night by a small being, large eyes, big white head. Really? We're wearing a black jumpsuit. But I didn't call it an alien. It was just a little man.

This is when you're like... Yeah. One year old? Wow, I never heard this. My sister, who's still alive, remembers me insisting that this happened. But she says, no, it was a dream. It was a dream. And so, all right, believe what you want. You know, I've been alive for 72 years, and I've never believed a dream was real.

that really happened. I didn't call it an alien. It was just a little man with big bald head and bald eyes. I didn't call them aliens. In those days, aliens were my favorite Martian. Oh, right. Too little antennas that would sprite from a human's head. What do you remember from that?

Just some... It was very hot, and we had... huge coolers mounted on the roof of the house, blowing down through the hallway and out, and that was one way to stay cool. So we, instead of sleeping in our bedrooms, we'd bring bed rolls and lay in the hallway. So I was awakened by something lifting my bedroll from the bottom in. my legs were lifted into the air and I woke up

what is this I mean that's not a way a dream happens you know it's not a dream you know this was happening and I saw the little man that was lifting the bedroom and I called out

and he dropped it and turned to run away and I jumped up and ran after after him. And I was unable to catch up with him. He disappeared in the house. We had a huge house, 21 rooms. Wow.

Yeah, it used to be the mayor of Phoenix's residence, but my mom was able to buy it in its later years and convert the upstairs rooms into rooms that she ran. It went out to pay the bills. And she had an answering service downstairs to pay the bills. So you lost him in the running amounts? There was upstairs and an attic and a bottom stair and a basement and spaces under the house that us kids explored and found. There were secret passages all over that house. Sounds like a fun place for a kid.

Yeah, it was. You know, we found all kinds of things there, but the little man disappeared, and I spent days trying to find out how he got away. That doesn't sound like a dream to me either. Yeah. And it wasn't terribly frightening. I didn't call it. Oh, an alien was trying to get me or anything.

It was just this little man woke me up, you know. And so, but my sister doesn't believe me. She thinks I had a vivid dream. She believes that I believe it, but. Anyway, it was wearing the black jumpsuit that Betty Hill described. So I've never really touted that story very much because it was just me with no witnesses. Right. And so take it or leave it.

I believe it, but I don't expect anybody to believe anything of this nature without some sort of evidence, you know. Yeah, that doesn't ask. Witnesses, physical evidence, that kind of stuff. Hmm. That is interesting, and that most of the stories I've heard, not the limited stories I've heard, people at any interaction with aliens, whether it's abductions, whatever, it seems to be more than once.

They seem to come, yeah, an early time in their life and then later on. So, I mean, that's... You've probably heard me talk about my ant-hill theory. You know, if you're walking by an ant-hill theory, you know, if you're walking by an ant hill, you don't stop and say, hey, I think I'll stop and have a conversation with that ant right there. Right. That was how I viewed it before about people saying that aliens came and contacted them.

But now I think that if you saw one when you were younger and one when you were older, they know it's you, that there's a connection between. Yeah, there's a reason. There is a reason. There's a basis for that. They have huge heads and a lot of intelligence. And I draw the analogy to the Utah Data Center. That's a government computer complex covering acres in Utah

that requires millions of gallons of water just to keep it cool. And it's supposedly reportedly. is recording every electronic transmission on the face of the earth. Now, if mere humans can keep track of that much information, a super advanced species, can probably do it in their head,

but the idea that there's a connection between these events is, I think, quite plausible. I do too. And not accidental, intentional for some reason. No, I think they once they find a person or interested in a person, I think they

just want to keep tabs on them for some reason in some way. But I definitely have not tried to promote the idea that, see, that means I'm something special. They're interested to me because I have qualities they like or something.

Who knows what their reason might be. But that's definitely not it. I've never sought any notoriety. I never sought out an interview or any sort of public appearance. They always invite me. I don't ever seek them. And other than that, I just keep to myself.

Yeah, you sound like me. Even the book I wrote. I don't even publish that I wrote a book. advertise it anywhere. People find out it's there and available and they seek me out and order them. But other than that, my wife thinks I'm crazy. Come on, get out there and advertise it.

You'd sell a million of them. It's not you. No, not me, but it's steadily keeping them busy for the last 50 years or 40-some years. Well, I'm glad we had time to sit down and talk. Yeah. Keep the waitress busy, keeping this... I just wanted to let you know that it's on the house for you this afternoon. Oh, well, thank you. That's great.

We thank you for joining the flying cell, sir. Well, thank you for your service. Thank you. Have a great afternoon. You too.