AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - Child Like Aliens FOUND inside a Crashed UFO

Episode Date: October 20, 2026

The Ramsey's New Book: https://www.theaztecincident.com/ March 25, 1948. A 100 foot disc hits a mesa outside Aztec, New Mexico. Oil workers climb on it. Someone pokes a stick in a hole, a staircase drops down, and inside there are bodies. Small ones. Sixteen of them. Most people Google "Aztec UFO" and stop at the word hoax. Scott and Suzanne Ramsey didn't stop. They spent 34 years, over $600,000 and roughly 55,000 documents on this one case, and they sat down with me at the Flying Saucer Diner to walk me through all of it. We get into the witnesses (a Bataan Death March survivor, oil field workers, a preacher, a family whose car died as discs flew overhead), the only recorded firsthand testimony from the crash site (exclusive to Area52), the concrete slab still buried out there, the trees the military replanted in perfectly straight lines, the scientists behind "Dr. Gee," a 300 page FBI file that got quietly moved to the National Archives, a break in at the New Mexico State Capitol, and a weird little marble they dug up right where the bodies were laid out. ➡️ Protect your privacy on the network level with Cape at https://cape.co/area52. Use code AREA52 at checkout for 33% off your first 6 months. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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More go time. The new 2027 Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid. Consumer Reports top-rated subcompact SUV. Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. I'd like to put myself in their shoes and think, what did they see, what did they experience, what do they think, you know. They certainly did, though. They certainly did talk about it.

They probably did. But that was the, that was the. is supposed to be the deal. You're not supposed to. But I would love to be a little fly on the wall for some of those conversations. You know, even just like people seeing the crash or whatever it is, okay, you don't talk in official capacity, but then you're out for a beer or you're out for whatever. What do you think they're saying to you to that? They're going, hey, what do you think that was?

We had lunch actually a couple of times down at the Whiteout. in San Antonio, New Mexico, where the Padilla boys found that craft in 1945. New Sicorro. Oh, yeah. New Sicorro. And the real quick story, the Padilla family had the White Al restaurants still there to this day. And they were telling us how old man Padilla built these cabins in the back. for to rent to people.

There was no Interstate 25 back then. There was Highway 1 or Highway 25 that went in north. And he just thought, you know, people coming through here, they've been driving for the whole day. They need a place to crash. Ironically, if you walk out the restaurant door, there was a flashy red light, and the house caddy corner,

it was the Hilton family house. Oh, wow. The Hilton hotel people. And so it was sort of a, to them, because, you know, how we built the first, you know, place. Well, one day these guys and sports coats and suits show up in these black sedans and said, hey, these cabins, like two days later after they got them done, are these cabins maybe up for rent?

And they want, yeah. They took all of them for six months. Wow. They're freaking out. They're like, we built these and we got them already booked for six months. And one guy was Oppenheimer, they figured that out later. Isn't that something? And they said, what do you guys do?

They said, oh, we're geologist. And they said, what are you doing around here? And they said, see that mountain range right there? We work on the other side of that. We're just examining some rock formations. Well, the night before the blast, they got the Padilla family together and said, about five o'clock in the morning, and they want to take these lawn chairs and point them that way. They might see something really spectacular.

Wow. And they did. They saw the first blast. They saw the first blast. After, it was already a foreign mushroom cloud because of the mountain range. But they said, it snowed. It rained. Yeah.

This is August. Or July. I'm sorry. You're right. July. And it's the first test. And the winds, they could hear the winds roaring against the mountain and then up over the mountain to them. And it was, they said that you couldn't even really describe what they

went through. And then I eventually got back to desert temperatures. Those guys came back that day, and they've rearranged the restaurant a little bit. You'd walk in, it was a grocery store on the left, a bar on the right, and then the restaurant was further back. And they said, they all sat at the bar, and some laughed, and some cried. Like, oh, my God, what did we do? These are all the guys from Los Angeles. Wow. Isn't that? Wild. And this is a family that experienced it. You know what I mean? They were there and they saw it.

So it's not a hearsay kind of thing. Yeah. We asked her about the Socorro's landing. And she went, that was them testing the lunar module for Apollo. They don't even look anything alike. Yeah. And the granddaughter came over to us and said,

keep in mind a lot of the security people from white sands eat here and drink here. So just sort of take that into consideration. Right, keep it down. Yeah, we toned things down around here. They didn't tow down the, and in a restaurant they have pictures of all the atomic testing. Oh, it is. And they have fabulous green-chill and cheeseburgers. Oh, yeah, they have really good food there.

Yum. Wild. That is wild to be a witness to that. Historic event, because you probably felt the gravity of what was happening. without fully appreciating what was going to happen. Right. Just the, oh, things are changing now. Mm-hmm.

You know, the nuclear age, the atomic age. Like that, that was a time where anything was possible. Yeah. And then you have something like that happened, and you suddenly realize that we just did the impossible, and then, you know, just opens up your aperture for everything else. For the scientists, I agree. But for the people, I can't even fail.

them that they would even understand what on earth was happening. You know what I mean? Yeah. I can't even imagine seeing that and the seasons change instantly and everything. I can't even imagine what they must have thought. It must have been just the end of the world or something. You know what I mean? Probably.

Might have well been the beginning of the end as we know it. And all of that brings us to this. You guys are in town. And thank you for coming to the Flying Saucer Diner. Well, thanks for having us. Appreciate you being here. Thank you for your great hospitality. We really, really appreciate your kindness.

Absolutely. It is my pleasure. And, you know, that hospitality is then repaid only by, you know, your hospitality. You guys so graciously took myself and Jesse and a few others in where we spent some time together looking into this very case here. you guys so you know you are our tour guides out there and uh hopefully that'll be up if it isn't already uh jesse's documentary covering you know our little adventure out there and obviously covering your story uh which in big part is the story of the aztec uh new mexico crash in 1948 um i'm not going to spend a whole lot of time trying to convince anyone sure of this

because I think this is one of those stories that speaks for itself once you start hearing about it. There's too much involved in this story for myself to coherently sit there and go through every painstaking detail. There's so much. But when you read it, it's laid out so cleanly, so neatly. So first of all, congratulations to both of you. This is a labor of love and this is a lifetime's work. of research and, I mean, you guys spent, you know, over $600,000 over the course of your lives. And just decades upon decades, traveling across the country, interviewing people, hitting dead ends, requesting files, going to places, go to the crash site, having things tested.

It's been a nonstop adventure for the both of you. before we get into the story of Aztec, I just want to ask you both, how does this feel? Good. Finally. That sums it up. Spectacular. We have over 55,000 documents. Which you saw.

Which you saw some of them. And over the last several years, in order to accomplish this with the book, we've gone into much deeper levels on this book. And we've tried to give all of the information that we've. we have, and just as we have it. But the 55,000 documents have filled our house. We don't have a really large house. And so there is a certain freedom in the fact that many of them are in storage and in goodkeeping right now, and we can start to resume and more normal.

So from the wife's standpoint, that's where I come from. But it's also a wonderful feeling to know that we, We've been able to give the passion that we have, express it in this book and hope to share it with others. Yeah. And for anybody wondering as well, like, this isn't your, this isn't your means of income. You don't. That's right. For anyone thinking, oh, there's always a book.

Yeah, you have to. If you put, you know, how many years of research now at this point? About 34. 34 years of research into something. I mean, the fact that, you know, even writing a book. it takes energy. It takes time. You guys have been writing this book well before we met, which was two years ago.

And this is based off all the other books that you've written about this. But now you've kind of caught up with new information, new revelations that have, you know, come forward since then. And you've been continuing the work of not only Frank Scully, but, you know, Bill Steinmeyer and somebody, even, you know, Stan Friedman had a hand in this. And there was, yeah, you're on a little. And Frank Thayer, I think, you know, should be mentioned as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, anything you want to say about Frank?

Frank was our third writer, and he was with us through all three books. And a good friend, he was a professor at the University of Las Cruces, New Mexico. And his specialty was journalism, and a very, very dear friend. And unfortunately, first part of July this year he passed away. So there is a joy in the fact that he was able to see the book before he passed because it was important. That was really important. But we will miss him and we miss him every day. Of course.

I'm sure you did him very proud in this work. I'm very excited to talk about it. So I'd like to start by getting into it. All right, we got to get to get through it. We got to go. We got to go into it. And this story is just riddled. you said something to me in the car today.

You said there's more twists and turns of this story than a bag of pretzels. And that's the truth because there's been attempts to debunk this, you know, in the past by both journalists and the government. There's been an active cover-up that you guys have actually kind of proven. There is a lot of history in this story. It is the most underreported crash recovery story that has the most. to it. It's got witnesses. It's got, there's a paper trail. There's, I mean, there's, there's a crash site with actual evidence at the crash site still to this day that I saw with my own eyes. We're going to get into all that. But first, you lay down on, right on top of where the

crash happened. Yeah, where the crash happened and the beings apparently lied down, you know. And your hair has been growing ever since. Yeah. Yeah, everything tastes a little funny now. That's exactly. Yeah. So there is a rich history here. And, you know, I'm going to ask you guys to take me through this book step by step so that we don't lose anyone in the audience because I want them to feel what it was like to be there. So take us back to March 25, 1948. Okay. Do you want to start? Sure.

I'll start. Step in anything that I'm missing. It was about a month, month and a half before that date that there had been sightings up near Los Alamos. as well as Cuba, New Mexico, that whole area of structured craft and green orbs. And the people of Cuba, New Mexico, which is 100 miles, probably 100 miles from Aztec, south, and almost directly south of Los Alamos, this is where they're seeing all the craft. And the people are just up in arms. They're so upset, they can't understand what this is, they go to the police.

They go to the mayor. They hold county or city meetings. And finally they bring in a scientist, and it's Dr. Lincoln-Lapaz. And La Paz takes a look around and goes out in the desert, and he comes back and brings meteorites and says, these are my, this is what you're seeing. It's really no big deal. And they were outraged. The people were just outraged.

And they said, we're seeing some. something structured. It has, you know, different, they described it. It's just, and then green orbs and turning, and there's just no way that that was going to be meteors. Medears. So this continued on. They kept seeing the structure craft. And there are two police officers, Andy Andrews and Manuel Sandoval. And they covered different parts of the state. And they would meet for pie and coffee. In Cuba. In Cuba. From time to time. before they went on duty, and they would sit and visit about what was occurring. Well, lately, a lot of their conversations had been about what had happened with the meeting

and the structured craft that were being seen. And so Manuel Sandoval says, I've had it. If I see another one, I'm going to just follow it. Well, be careful what you ask for, because that evening, as he's driving, he actually sees a craft. There was something different about this craft, and it was that it was fluttering, and his description was like a leaf,

like this. And so he began following it, and the roads were different than they are. Back in 48, there were different roads than we have currently, but he started following it up to Blanco area and then up to Aztec, New Mexico. Again, that's going to be. be northwest. So he goes through the night following, and there's times he would lose it because

there are switchbacks. As you know, driving that area, there are switchbacks, and there's cliffs and bluffs and things that can impair your view. But it was only for short periods of time, but he would lose it. And he did lose it for a short time. About this time, it's 5 o'clock in the morning. And Valentin Archiletta, who was a veteran, a decorated, highly decorated veteran, is going out after he kisses his wife from breakfast. He walks out about 5 o'clock in the morning with his dog, goes out to the goat pen, and he looks up because he hears this loud boom. And here is this massive craft. And as he watches from his view, it can, continues going forward, and here he sees it hit and actually bump into his some rocks.

They're about three. A mesa. Yeah. I was going to say mesa, but I don't know if everybody knows, but a mesa, about 300 foot high. Bumps into it, and there's sparks that come off of it. And it continues on. Well, with not having a lot of phones at that time, and he survived. didn't have a phone. He walked the mile to report it and use the phone at the training post. And he calls Curtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque and reports this.

Now, if I may, I think it's important to establish Valentin Archeletta and kind of who he is briefly, at least, for people. Because, you know, people might be out there thinking, why would I take a farmer's word on that? Like, what is, maybe this guy's got something to gain from it. But, you know, we went out there and we met with his granddaughter. We saw the ranch. We saw the bluff that it hit up on the mesa. And hearing her describe her grandfather and what he'd been through, which you guys also covered in this book, which is the fact that he'd been at the, like, the death march in the Philippines. The baton death march.

You know, he weighed 80 some pounds when he came back. and just the atrocities that he had lived through brought him to that point where, you know, I dare anyone to go up to this man after living through the most horrendous conditions one can think of and call him a liar. It's unheard of and it's abhorrent. I don't think that anyone alive

would have the guts to go up to a man like that and say you're lying. And so, you know, what is he have to gain Nothing. From that. Did he say it was a UFO? Or did he say, hey, there's a giant thing that just hit that, you know, he's not an alien guy. Right, right.

You know, there's a simplicity to him, I think. But at the same time, and the simplicity is actually his strength. You know, yes, currently he was a farmer rancher. But he had so much character. And the way, and I'm going to step back just for a moment, during the baton bed, death march, during the time that he was on the warships, it was just the mines he was on underground for a great length of time. They had no food. They ate rats. They ate anything they could rocks. I mean, it was absolutely far more thankfully that any of us ever have to think

about. And yet he always cared for his fellow prisoners' lives. It's just writing about it, learning about it and studying about it. He was a tremendous man and came back through all of that and was a good and prosperous, I guess, citizen. I mean, he just cared for other people. He had a wonderful sense of humor, loving.

And so, as you said, I don't know that to me is so important to know about that person. I think it is important to establish, you know, someone's character and especially in regards to these outrageous claims, you know, you think why would someone just, and you're stopped at a dead end with this guy. This is not a guy you can easily push aside by saying, oh, you got a little crazy or he got a little loopie or whatever. He was also acknowledged by the president, right? He was given a couple different presidents. A couple different presidents, right? So this is a very credible, upstanding citizen who's been through

literal hell who is now telling you, walking a mile to tell you, hey, I just saw something really big crash into that, you know, and it's headed that way. That's right. And so that takes us to the next witness. You know, there's a reason they make skiffs. There are places where your phones shouldn't work, where the environment can be controlled and there's no recording, usually. That's to keep information safe and it's not just something that you require in a skiff, but I think that that should also probably apply to your phone. I mean, when you think about it, your metadata, your location patterns, your contacts, there's so much vital private information on your cell phone right now. And the truth is that your carriers don't actually have a really good batting average for putting privacy

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for six months. Again, cape.com and use code area 52 to save 33% off for six months. Thank you to Cape for sponsoring this video. So he heads on home and now Officer Manuel Sandoval is now arriving

towards through the Y&D roads towards where the actual, we know, is the crash site today. And he comes upon some oil field workers, and they're standing there. And earlier that day, there had been reports of a fire. And so there were a variety of oil field workers out. Doug Nolan and Ken Farley. Correct. And there was a whole group of them. There was a whole group of them.

Right. And then Doug Nolan and Ken Farley, no, Doug Nolan and Bill Ferguson. That's right. pull up and they see, again, their other oil field workers. And what's going on? You know, where's the fire? What's happening? And they said, well, there had one been one a little ways away, but it's over.

But wait until you see what's on the mesa. Keep in mind, a fire and drip tanks don't go hand in hand in the oil field. We have pictures of the drip tanks in the book. They're no longer there. but some were water vessels. They just had water, and others had, uh,

were full of propane and benzene and all the, all the things that when you're trying to get natural gas out of the ground, you don't really want to come across. That's right. There is a commercial value to it. And if that fire spread and got down to the tanks, big problem.

Big problem. But the fire, they're well separated and virtually almost out by the time they got there. It wasn't a no, thank you. It wasn't an issue. So they said, but wait until you get up onto the mesa. And so they all hiked up. But it's, as you know, a bit of a hike.

Yeah. Got up on the mesa. And a mesa for anyone that's not familiar is a Spanish word for table. So it's a mountain or a hill that's flat on the top. And here lays 100 foot. craft, all intact. And already up there, there were ranchers and other people from the area that were standing around. And I'm sure they were shocked.

Many of them thought that it might be something from the United States military. Sure. Yeah. It was that. It was an exciting time in airspace and aviation. Yep. I mean, yeah. Exactly.

So, two of the oil-filled workers start climbing around on it, and the older folks in the group got upset, you know, get down from there, what are you doing? And one of them ran down and grabbed a long pole, like a broomstick pole, only thinner. And they found one hole in the whole craft, and it was about the size of a quarter. so the broomstick, or this pole, would fit right in there. So they took it in. I always wonder, whatever ever caused them to do this, I would never think to do that.

But they started jamming it around in there, and it hit a lever, and it opened up. Opened up the staircase that dropped down. Staircase dropped down. So two of them went in and started crawling around and looking, and they saw two bodies just slumped over in two seats. about that time is when the military started to show up. And this is Bill and Doug that went in.

No. No, Bill and Doug didn't go in. Bill and Doug went on the craft. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

Right. But they didn't go into the craft. No. Right. Right. Because you'd interview Doug as well, right? Yes. In 2003.

Right before he died. You did it right before he died. Mm-hmm. I mean, what was, what was that like? Well, he was recovering from, I believe, stroked. Stroke number three or four. so it was very challenging for him to even talk. The brain was sharp, but the body was worn out.

Yeah, he told me he immediately thought it was one of ours. He said this wasn't anything short of a rescue mission because we figured there were people inside. Hold music. Not what you want to hear when a pipe dispersed in your basement is flooding. That's why intact insurance answers 2 million claim calls per year, within 20 seconds. So instead of hearing this lovely track,

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The interview is taken by John Lear and features Doug Noland recounting exactly what he saw when he arrived at the crash site. Have a listen. They wouldn't let us take any pictures. And the cameras that we had, we did have pictures and it must confiscated all over. That's what had us all so goddamn mad. As part of us had the camera, you know, it happened to have it in the car. And they wouldn't let us take any pictures. And the pictures that were taken, they went to through our car or fine-tooth cone, see if we had anything. There was just the one that come out of there.

When the door come down, let's say this is the door, and they came down and sit down out here. And the window was sitting right over here. In this part, there's a hole in there. And you could see in there, and if that were folded down there, which I know it did, that guy that was sitting in there was sitting right in there. Right, if a door was down, which I wouldn't let us around there, but they was, you could have seen him sitting in there, and the other guy was sitting over here. And then there was two on the other side.

So where do you think the other eight people might have been? They said there was blow down here. Down here? I said there was another floor in there. Because I just stuck up there about six, eight feet from the flat plane of the center of it. Here. Wasn't very high. So you weren't there when they stuck the pole in and opened the door?

Yeah. Oh, you weren't? But I never did see them going to get any bigger hole in there. I wasn't there when they stuck that pole in there because that's when they had us outside. They wanted that fenced off, barricade. I think Reed was there because he had some of those on his truck. Either that or they went back down and got some from him. The only one that they kept, well they kept him there because he had his welding truck, that's right.

And he had his generator on there because he was going to tell us if they ever got in it. And they got in it. And then did he tell you? Yeah. Yeah, he told us that the door just folded right down. He said just folded right down from the top and just folded it. the top and just pulled it on down there. So when he put the torch to this window, did it make anything?

Nothing. Nothing. Wouldn't even get hot. That's what we couldn't figure out. There was Reed said hit it when he thought he had it hot. And I hit it and it just bounced that hammer back at you. But then he took a torch off of it and tried to see if it was hot and it shipped, then he warm.

About the time that the staircase came down, the helicopter arrived at the scene. Now, this was coming from his memory years later. He was 19 at the time. He had never seen a helicopter before. They had just been brought into the Army inventory in January and February of 48. So nobody had... Yeah. Almost no one had...

Yeah, that was also almost alien. Yeah. And, you know, Doug says, here I am. Turns out I'm sitting next to a UFO, and I'm watching another object. I had no clue what it is, and we figured out later one of the older guys said it's a helicopter. And they were like the ones in the opening scene of MASH. Yeah. The big Lexan bubble, two people.

You could probably get a third because the way they showed it, MASH, a wounded person on the outside pontoon. It circled maybe two times and then took off to the northeast. Well, Mike Price and I did a lot of research on that helicopter. They had a range at that altitude of about 160 to 165 miles. So it came locally. That would be a stretch to make it to Albuquerque. So at Los Alamos? Colorado.

Colorado. And maybe into Air Force Base at Colorado Springs. We don't know. Maybe it stopped somewhere and took on fuel. Yeah, it wouldn't have been at Los Alamos. There's no reason for. No, not that kind of military. Not that kind of village.

Yeah, not exactly. But that was always, and other people agreed with him. Ken Farley said, yeah, I was there when the helicopter went over. So it was sort of a busy day for everybody's brain. And they were all young guys. Yeah, yeah. If Ferguson was the old senior, I think he was early 30s. I see.

Yeah, they kind of referred to him as well. The older guy. The older guy. And then Mr. and Mrs. Knight, who were ranchers, they showed up, and they were old people. They were probably in their 40s or 50s. Their son went on to work as a Park Ranger service, a Department of Wildlife, one of those positions. I've always tried to find him to sit down and have a talk with him. I mean, that must have been just the most surreal experience, especially, I mean, because you

spoke to Doug and Ken as well, right? He was also there. I actually met Ken. We had one out the Right. And these are people who physically saw the craft with their eyeballs. These are people who touched it. Who touched the UFO and who described it in the same manner. Giant disc kind of lopsided. Lenticular. Lenticular, not damaged whatsoever. Pristine. Yeah, these are people who, you know, perhaps a lot of the people researching this case don't even bother to look into. You know, we'll get to that, but usually you stop at the Silas Newton's and the Leo Gaveauer and you kind of like, you read the, you know, the debunk by, you know, or the alleged supposed debunk by the GP, what's his name? J.P. Kahn. J.P. Kahn. Yeah.

Interesting. Isn't it? Well, that one chapter in our first and second book did Kahn the Kahn. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, a lot of people read that and they throw the whole thing over. But then you're like, wait, before we even get there, we're already at half a dozen witnesses. Right. So what's next?

We go into the craft. They see two bodies slumped over. What do they do? The military arrives almost right at the same time and debriefs all of them. So we're 10, 30, 11 o'clock in the morning now. Yeah. There are other witnesses that are there. There's a county commissioner.

I guess that's what we want to call it. Another sheriff that are also there. So there's other people. There's a traveling gentleman that came by. He was on his way. He was like on reserve or he was, I guess, out of the military temporarily. And he was just taking a vacation. How do we have their testimony?

How do we know that these people were around? Is that from secondhand? Secondhand. Okay. But, So there's a variety of people. Oddly enough, when you go to interview or you try to confirm your facts, it's easy to ask a question and just assume that that's the way it is.

And instead, what we've tried to do, and Scott's done an excellent job, and I hope I always try to, that we try to come at it from different angles and not trip anybody up, but you have to qualify things. You know, just can't assume that that's the way it is. So without having any of these folks together, we asked questions. And Scott did a great job, asking questions about the other people that we already know the answers to. We think we do. Doing some detective work out there.

That's right. Who else was there? What did they look like? Did you know them? And some of the people were not known to the other people. Right. They were visiting or they were from another portion. And descriptions on the craft and different things that they saw, all those things, it's not just asking a person a question.

And certainly it's not leading them in the questions by giving them a little, and what about this, and what about this? Instead, it's asking and just listening more than anything. And let them talk and let them share their story. And it's amazing how many times you see it dovetail. that things Have there ever been points where you're like this person is like clearly lying

they weren't there? Have you ever encountered people that would just actively lie about seeing something? We tried to feed off what this witness told us and you need to talk to so and so. I see right so you're just connecting the dots. Right. One of the interesting people that showed up was

a preacher, Catholic preacher by the name of Brown. Yeah, Solon Brown. Solon Brown. He showed up. He had passed away before we could get to him, but we interviewed his son. The son, yeah. He's one of the more compelling...

Oh, my gosh. Your heart. Witnesses because of not only the nature of what he did, but the nature of why he was needed. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you actually see a real person with real emotions. Do you want...

Well, so the military arrives. They kind of take control. They're debriefing everyone. Now, when we say debriefing, they're telling them, you tell anyone and we'll kill you. You can't talk about this. It is completely. This is American National Security. That's what they're told.

That's what Doug Nolan shared as well. And they were literally told to shut it. Talk or die? But I think even more important than that and something that we repeatedly found was, they were threatened themselves, but their families were threatened. Financially, harm. Everything. And that was a time of loyalty, great loyalty.

Yeah. And that, I think, grabbed people more than even being threatened themselves. Yeah. I really do. Yeah, I think so, too. And I think, you know, back then we're still, we're right after the war. Yeah. This is still fresh.

We're not even in the 50s yet. And so the heightened sense of patriotism is. you know, rampant. And I think people, you know, is the one point in time where you would be declared a hero for keeping a secret. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And so, you know, if you were asking people, why would these people keep it a secret?

Well, because that was their duty. That's right. They were told by soldiers, and you mentioned this in your book, too, like, they were well respected back then. Sure. Nowadays, people have their own opinions and they're entitled to those because of the nature of information and everything else. But back then, you know, you'd say.

see a soldier and you'd tell your kid and you'd point you say, that's a hero right there. You know, that's the way it was. And so when a soldier told you, hey, you can't talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. And they would tell you, hey, don't talk about that. You would respect that, right? So this is a different time.

It was a totally mindset. The mindset was very, very different. When I interviewed Doug, Doug kind of laid out who was there, who he knew. And Doug lived over the border when we went up to direction. to fly out. We made a right to go to the Durango Airport if we had made a left that would take us into Mancos, Colorado. That's how the locals say it, Mancoast, it's Mancus. And Preacher Brown had been sent up there to reopen the Mancoast Baptist Church. And we went up and interviewed back 2010 the new preacher, preacher Gregory. And he knew a little

bit, but not what we knew. So we kind of educated him. Turned out he had retired from Air Force intelligence. Talk about, like, really. And you end up here? He was a really, really nice guy, very helpful. The interesting thing that Doug did, and Doug did know everybody,

a lot of oil field workers out there then, as there are today. But he knew the Knights, and he said, Now there were two, maybe three guys on the western edge of the mesa that we didn't know, and I don't think they didn't really intermingle with us. Years later, when Randy Barnes gave me contact information on Ken, I flew out to Arizona and sat with Ken, and Randy came with me, we took him to lunch. Sadly, he was dying at that time, too. He was on oxygen, so we had to be very careful where we went,

not the smoking area of the restaurant. Sure. And Ken knew he was dying, and he told us. He said, matter of fact, that was why we kind of dropped everything and got out there. He said, I don't know how much longer I have. And I said to Ken, can you describe the crash site? The one thing that intrigued me, he said, you know, we kind of thought it was crazy that some of the guys were climbing on that thing. We didn't know what it was.

And he said, so we walked out on the western edge of that mesa and clicked. He was the guy. I said, who all was there? He said, just me and another guy, we're on our way to San Diego. Well, then the other thing that amazed me, Ken Farley talked about three gold rim lines around the rim of the craft. Like a ring. And that's not something that was ever brought.

We didn't discuss that at all. Purposely. Purposely. Yeah, we kept that quiet from about 15 years. And because that's something you'd heard from the other witnesses as well. But you just, you're like, hey, we got to keep some cards close to our chest. It was just a check. Yeah, it's a check and down.

And it's a smart move. And so he brought that information forward. And then I asked Ken to describe the craft. And it was, you know, lenticular and shaped, very thin cross-section. Dumbed on the top, domed on the bottom. We should have brought the model that we had made. That's true. You did a model.

Yeah. It was larger on the top than on the bottom. But 13 feet high. 18 from top to bottom, the best we can tell. Right. And actual three floors. Right. So when they went into the craft and saw the two bodies, there were 14 other bodies elsewhere.

Yeah. But Ken Farley brought it up, too. He said, as we were being told to get off the mesa, he said, I noticed it was almost like gold rings around the craft. right at the center of it. And that struck me as odd. I'm hearing this from two guys didn't know each other. Ken Farley and his buddy, they were traveling to,

well, they stopped in San Diego to see his aunt, and then they were going on to San Diego to see some old Navy buddies. So it wasn't like they wanted to have a beer at night. They were on the same bowling league. Yeah, they're going to like, we're going to give this researcher run for his money here. Let's give a hard time there.

Once we started having that happen, we said, we've got to keep digging. And so we've dug. Okay, so the Army comes, debriefs them, tells them not to talk. Now, there is a minister that's coming from Aztec, and he's establishing, a circuit minister had several, yeah, had several locations. But his home was in Mancus, Colorado. And as he's driving past the road, and you've seen the road, it's an unimproved road. It's not much different today. Yeah.

Very rugged. Better to have a pickup. Pickup or four-wheel drive. If it rains, you can have some problems. Sometimes it's real wash-forty. He passes by, and he looks, and he sees a lot of activity going out there. And he just decides he's going to go out, see if he can help. So he drives out and as he pulls up, the military's in place and he says, is there anything I can do to help?

You know, thinking there is maybe an oil field accident or crash or something, you know, and they said, yes, follow us. So again, they make the big hike all the way up there. It's a rigorous, you know, it's invigorating to get up there. and as he comes over, he sees 16 bodies laying there. And he looks at him, and they're not human. And they said, could you say last rites? And he said, I'm not a Catholic priest. I'm Baptist.

But I could pray for them. So I oftentimes think of what this experience must have done for him. As he gets down by each one of the 16th, bodies and says prayers for them. Well, the bodies were between three and four foot in size. They had perfect teeth. Their skin was burned. They had like a light blue kind of almost like this color outfit on.

What color was their skin if it wasn't charred? Do you know, was that ever divulged? I never heard. They were pretty badly burnt all the way. Pretty badly as though they figure maybe decompression. Okay. From the hole in the porthole. Okay.

So that's what the uniforms. There were no insignia is like a higher rank or a lower rank. Very childlike features. And ears, small eyes, big eyes. Small. Small like eyes. Childlike, great. But larger heads.

They weren't, wow, slightly. They weren't the stereotypical. They weren't grayes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. They were more like the, the ones we hear about perhaps in Roswell,

the type ones that were, you know, the description of Roswell was they were more like Oriental looking and kind of like almond-shaped eyes. And like they, you know, that's those type of features. But they weren't your typical. Hollywood Gray. Hollywood Gray's. Right. Okay.

And teeth is another thing. Like that's a whole other detail. So he preys over each one of them and then just heads down to his car and starts to drive home. Well, going to Megas takes a bit of time. It's in Colorado. Probably took him. Three minutes. I think so.

Well, that's a long time to be alone by yourself after. After something like that. That's 45 minutes on today's road. And like, you're a Baptist priest. Exactly. You know, the devil. The, you know, what is? this, are these demonic, are these, I mean, I'm sure those thoughts crossed his mind a hundred

times in that car ride by himself, thinking about what he just saw and what that means for his faith. What that means for him. So he gets to, back to his church, and he calls several of his parishers that are friends, and he has him come in, and one of them was a child, happened to be a child, but, you know, one of the parents brought a child. And he starts to, you know, he starts, to describe, he says, I have to tell you what happened today, what I experienced today. And he shares it. And one of the gentlemen that were in the group cleared his throat like that. And the minister started crying. And he said, you don't believe me, do you? You don't believe me. He was so upset. And that had nothing to do with it. He was just over the edge at that time. I mean, he was

upset. And they asked him, why are you crying? You know, has it shaken your faith? Just as you just asked, has it shaken your faith? And he said, no, it was just so traumatic being by these little bodies, each one of them dead, and they were like children. You know, I mean, they probably didn't look like any of his kids, but, you know what I mean? But living at one point, nonetheless, yeah. And that was pretty much the end of his. But he was never debriefed, according to,

testimony and everything else. So he was, he didn't even know he shouldn't talk about this. See, that's something interesting when you say that. That's the way that I've always felt is that he just wandered off to his car and. Yeah, they all just kind of who's going to believe the priest, I guess, or like, or even just forgot about him. My thought is there's so much going on. All the kofa happening. Yeah. Yeah. If you're curious about the shirt that I'm wearing in this episode, you can check it out at area 52.com. In fact, the entire The entire Invisible College collection is on sale 20% off until next Friday. So only seven days left. Check it out at area 52.com.

So we found some new information, and it was that earlier that day that there was a family up in Durango and a mother, father, and two kids, and they were coming back on the back road. Now, the military has all of the roads partitioned off so you can. can't get in and securing them. And this family traveling down back to their home in Blanco passed right by where currently, if you were to go there, is the parking lot. Now, there wasn't a parking lot at the time, but it's right up next to the road, right up, I mean, within, you know, five, ten feet.

I mean, that's how close it is. And as they pull by, on their merry way, they see. see bodies laying there. They didn't say what it was. They don't know what it was, but it was wrapped in. Did they not see the crafts before then? And yes, and I miss that, and I'm sorry. On their way to that, they saw two crafts, huge crafts.

Now, again, this is a family driving home. They have nothing to gain from this. Two massive crafts out in a field, and they were going down and they were coming up. And as they came close to the crafts, they lost their power in their vehicle. And there was another vehicle there, too, that was passing. That was crossing them, and it also happened to them. Also happened to them. So now they go past, they see the bodies, and then they continue on, just keep on going.

And you imagine the conversation in that car, I cannot even imagine. So they're going cross-country over to Blanco, and they see eight more. Giant discs. Giant discs. Almost like a search and rescue mission. And the same very thing happens that they lose power in their vehicle. Power comes back on after the discs leave and they get to Blanco and that's the end of the story. Now this family ends up coming forward because of they heard about the story.

Now to them, this was a completely disparate and sort of different encounter. They never thought, oh, this was a UFO crash. They never saw a crash. UFO. No. They had no knowledge of them. They just had this strange story of one night where they're driving these back roads because again, they're taking the back roads so they're not at those blocked entrances to the site. They're coming from a different direction. That's exactly right. Kind of open. There's all sorts of roads out there. I'm sure it was blocked right after that. It was probably blocked right after that.

Can you imagine a special out of face? Yeah, and seeing these things, your car shutting down, getting your car started looking, seeing these bodies. Like, you don't even know how. that's connected. Yeah, they were in like military body bags. Yeah, and then years later, they hear about the same area having had a crash, and then that's where it clicks for them to like, wait, is that what we saw? Yeah. And they actually kept that story quiet for a very, very long time.

We did not actually get that information until the last couple years. Like 2015, wasn't it? Yeah. It was later than that. Later than that. Later than that. Yeah. But, yeah, and they're a long-standing family.

I've lived there for a long time. How many people in the car? Four people. Yeah. Two parents, two children? And you spoke to all of them? No, to the granddaughter. To the granddaughters, right, because they would have been long gone by now, I think, right?

Yeah. Wow. That's another one of those. Hey, here's another witness. That's right. The two girls on a horse was an interesting story. Yeah, it's more witnesses. Well, yeah, and she contacted me.

And I can't use her name like we can't with this family. Is that on their request? Yes. And what is the concern there? Do you mind me asking? Steinman had mentioned the family in his book without their permission. I see. And they got very upset.

Yeah. They want any unnecessary heat. Yeah, and there's a back story to that. I'll tell you when we're having dinner tonight. Gotcha. Uh-huh. But if I keep your thought for one second, there still is a tremendous stigma. And there's a stigma throughout the world.

Yeah. And even though people are more enlightened and children, certainly nowadays, it's not a big deal to them, there still is a stigma. And take it back to during that time where, again, even more. and that the government used embarrassing people and humiliating them. So is this more of a fear of like public sort of ridicule, or do you think that they were afraid of, you know, some type of encounter that they would have with the government

or with some faction of the government that they want them talking? I think that from back in 48, when people told their children and their children, and the generations going on over and over and over, do not do this. I think that just stuck. Just stuck.

I really do. And I think that sometimes you don't even know the reason why anymore, you just stick with it. And that's my theory. I don't know that to be true. But it is kind of wild for someone to reach out to you

with such a story and then be like, but I don't want to, like, what is even the point of that then? Yeah, I know. Do you know what I mean? Like, you're like, you're like, that, for me, that, like, raises my conviction. This isn't someone trying to sell something or someone is like, hey, get my t-shirt from, you know, when I saw aliens at Aztec. They're like, here's a story.

Do you want with it? Just don't mention my name, you know. And that, to me, stands out. They, but she contacted me. Of course, she's much older now. And part of the family still lives in the Cedar Hill, Aztec. area. And she's telling me this story.

We went horseback riding. And if you go out toward the crash site, well, actually, if you go down the hill from the crash site, there's a spring down there. I used to fill my canteens down there. And it's a good place to water your horse.

That was her perception. We're going to go out and go as far as the Arkansas loop, get water for the horses, and come back. It's a typical run for them. I asked her, how do you know this many years later the date? And she said, that's simple.

It was my birthday. March 25th, 19. March 25th, which was a Thursday. And she instantly had that in recall and said that that's my birthday. And the gift was a new horse. and her other horse was the one the other girl was driving driving. So I kind of just sat back and laughed. And Steinman, like I said, had interviewed the family.

So what did she seen, the girl on the horse? Well, they get out just about a third of the way, not quite half. And two young guys and khakis in a Jeep. No military uniform, but khaki shirt, khaki pants. and she said, you know, I think she was nine at the time, she said, they were really handsome guys. Older guys, too. And I said, how old? She goes, oh, they had to be in their 30s, you know.

God forbid it, you know, they knew our age. And they were very kind to her and said, oh, honey, there's been an accident up here. It's really not safe for you to go up. And he said, there's no other place to water your horse from what I understood. understand, so best you'd probably turn around. And they were kind of resisting, but she said, we were kind of resisting and flirting at the same time as young girls. And they finally said, okay. And even when she and I were talking, a couple of things bothered her, why are guys in khakis at a Jeep with no other military uniforms?

And how did he know there was no other watering hole between here and there? Right. So he was local, you know, or from the area. Makes sense. Yeah. I didn't even know there was no other watering hole, as she was telling me this years ago. But, again, when I take her story and I take what Steinman had, it all... Hold music. Not what you want to hear when a pipe dispersed in your basement is flooding.

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Isn't that amazing? She would have just been like... One day we're on a whole year. I don't even remember what year of it was. Now she knows the exact day. Wow. And to get a horse, that's going to be a landmark experience for you. And then finally, we have the boys on the bikes.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a group of boys that are in town and near the cemetery. They live near the cemetery. neighborhood boys in Aztec, and they are riding their bikes and they're eight and nine years old and just goofing around playing, and they see a lot of activity. Yeah, this is a small town and activity going in and out in a town, so they decide to ride their bicycles out and follow the vehicles. And so as they get out there, they travel all the way out and are stopped by the military and turned around

and said, no, you're not able to come here. So, you know, Each one of these things, I think any one of them doesn't give you the whole case, but it tells you the experience of multiple people on that day. There also was the county commissioner and the sheriff. That's right. And do you want to do that or should I? Yeah, his ranch hand contacted us, Suzanne and I, and he had worked for Benson Leeper for many years.

so close to the family that after he died, which was not that long after we interviewed him, he was buried in the family Benson Leeper Platt, the Leeper Plot. So he had to be pretty tight with the family to do that. And he tells the story that Benson left early one morning. He was the county commissioner. And was picked up by one or maybe two other people

at the house and taken out, which turned out to be Hark Canyon Road, came back mid-morning, and his wife, Ruby, said, my God, what happened? Where have you been? And I think he said to her, there's been an accident. I've got to run. I'll be back later. He came back sweaty and wrinkled and all.

Just a mess. And according to Mark, he told Ruby, Where I have been, what I was doing will never be brought up again, never asked again, which was out of his character. And basically then went in and cleaned up and took a nap, went back to bed. So, you know, Mark said, this is way before my time, but this is what Ruby's telling me. Benson had already passed on. And then right after that he died, then right after that, Ruby died. But.

I think Ruby died first. Benson on that day was very standoffish, slept, very standoffish. For the next two weeks, he was just very quiet and just very standoffish. And it wasn't until he was on his deathbed that he shared the story with Ruby. Even that, yeah. The whole story. The whole story of what he saw and all that time. Let me give you a little background on Benson and his wife.

The Leiper family is extremely well-respected in San Juan County. He arrived there according to his friends. Basically, they stopped there because they had walked from Oklahoma. Wow. Over a period of God knows how many days. Months. Months, yeah. And they had no money.

And he had worn the souls of his shoes. Wow. Out. So it was sort of like Ruby. honey. This is it. This is as far as we go. And he went on, like so many of those guys, to be a very successful rancher. And I guess, you know, fell in love with Aztec in the area and called it home. But, you know, he was kind of another Valentin Arceletta. That tough guy, I never got to meet him. Sorry I didn't. I never got to meet Ruby. We interviewed Ruby's

best friend, prior to that, years prior to that, and she was standoffish and said, Ruby doesn't talk about any of that. Yeah, wow. So, you know, I respect that. But these guys were rough and tough. I mean, to live out there, even back then, yeah. Life was tough. Even today.

Even today. Yeah. I mean, you know. If you walked from Oklahoma, you better consider yourself tough. You know, I mean, that's a, that's a, I mean, that's a try. in itself. That's, you know, that's an Iliad. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. But these, again, a good family, very well respected, really contributed to the community and just more credible people coming

forward saying, you know, there was something going on there. And so after we have all these witnesses, everything sort of, you know, they get to place. completely guarded off to get the place shut off from anyone. But now there's a problem. And the problem is they're sitting on this mesa and they need to get this giant craft out of here. Great. And, you know, you walk up there and your feet sinks in the sand. Yeah. There's no... Very silty. You can't get footing. I'm looking at that mesa right there with all the silt is washed down. That's a lot like the crash lake. Yeah, that's right. You can't. Count on the ground.

No, you can't. And so if you're, you know, if you're going to pull one of these things, we're talking a craft that's 100 foot in diameter, weighs I don't know how many tons. And if you're thinking of even taking that craft and moving, sorry, moving it, you would need to have some type of winch, some type of winching system, some type of crane. But anything moving that needs to have some type of footing. Right. So before we get to that, though, something happens to the craft.

that I find highly unusual. That is so strange that you never hear about anywhere else. The craft comes apart. Right. Oh, yes. They knew they weren't going to be able to move. They weren't going to be able to move it in one solid piece. You know, like I said, there's cliffs and bluffs on parts of the road.

There's just no way. And with pippins, they were stuck together the four pieces, one in the center, and then three pieces around. Frank Scully, I somehow missed that reading Frank Scully's book and went back and actually a friend of ours said, well, you know, Scully talks about how it came apart. And I reread it. And we use Pib Pins today and a lot of things. Pib Pins hold the wing of an Indycar on, the front nose of an IndyCar. Bigger Pib Pins, we use an agriculture.

We have a farm. We use Pib Pins all the time. on our implements, our tillers, our bush hogs, whatever we're using. And apparently it was a type of Pib Pen where you push down the center. It's a button. And the ball retracts. You can stick it through and release it. And now you've got a very tight tolerance.

So we looked at Scully's chapter again, and his part of moving the craft, and that's the name of our chapter. and I needed an expert on moving large objects. So I couldn't find his phone number, but I sent a letter to Bill Metzger from Confluence, Pennsylvania. And I knew he was the best in the world because he worked for my dad, and that's what my dad did. My dad would move anything.

If you told him move that, Mesa, he'd figure out eventually how to. And Bill was what they called an expediter. He would ride with the load from point A to point B. It may be a huge turbine coming out of G.E. and Schenectady going to St. Louis, and it went down to Florida, over to Mississippi, over to Kansas, and they had to use whatever means they had that had the high, wide clearance to get the train or truck through. Right. Mostly train.

Yeah. So I wrote a letter to Bill. He responded immediately and said, yeah, this sounds fun. But I don't believe in flying saucers. I said, better yet. You're the guy for us. I said, that's better yet that you don't.

So long story short, Suzanne and I flew out. Hannah's wife Pam took Amtrak out there because Bill loves trains. And we worked for a week moving the craft from the crash site down to where we knew it could, safely get to Los Alamos. Wait, so this is crazy. You guys mapped out where you would have taken it, what vehicle would have taken it. Exactly.

And where it allegedly ended up at, which is 90 miles away at Los Alamos. Right. What the roads were not currently, but the roads at the time. What the roads were back then. What bridges were there at the time. Right.

What bridges weren't there at the time. It takes a lot of history. That would have been treacherous. Yeah. And that was, I think, that was one of the debunks that people would cite often was, there's no way that a vehicle of that size with that load could drive up to Los Alamos. It's a heck of a drive up there.

And you guys, how much did you spend on this excursion? You don't want to know. I do want to know, actually. I will just tell you this, that, you know, for the first 18 years of our marriage, every day we worked on this project, every single day. We had our jobs, and then at the end of the day, we would come together. What did we each find and debrief each? other. It was a really expensive week. Then Scott comes to me. How expensive? Well, that's where I'm

going. Scott comes to me and he says, you know what we need to do? The debunkers are concerned that we couldn't move this. Yeah, they were. And he said, so what we would need to do is go back and reenact this. And I just looked at him. And honestly, in my mind, I'm thinking of, how are we going to pay the bills this month? And we're going to worry about this. We're going to think about how to move this. and we sat there and that's kind of what I said. I didn't say that out loud, but we just kept eating supper and I was going, oh my God, oh my God. And finally, I looked at him and I said, you've been right, let's do it.

And he was a thousand percent right. It did cost us money. The time alone. How much did it cost you? A hard cash. 15 grand. Something like that. One week.

Crazy little hobby. Yeah, yeah. She was staying racing. But here's the deal. You know, you can't do a project like this halfway. You either go all the way or you don't. And that's what- You're right.

You're right. But so many of the debunkers, that's where, like you said, they talk about the hoax and things like this. But they never see the full picture. They go this far. Well, you don't know how the movie ends. If you don't go to watch the whole movie. You don't know.

there's always a twist in things. And so to commit to that, and we had committed to this point, and it was the right thing. It was. But I can tell you personally, I would have never come up with that. I would have never done it on my own. You can thank him very much for that. And again, it was, it was amazing experience. Bill was the man for the job. Yeah, absolutely. He, again, he had no interest in the topic. And that's a very important thing, too, is, I think what's interesting about you guys researching this stuff as well is that it's something you've repeated to me during, you know, the course of how long we've known each other. That, like, you're very happy in if someone showed you some cold, hard proof saying, no, none of this actually happened. This is all made up.

Here you go. Like, that from day one has been your thing. You're very careful about who you talk to at which conferences you go to. You don't want to be looped into the UFO people or the alien people or all this stuff you don't know about. Right. You're like, all we know is this and this and this and we're going to try and prove or disprove what happened. And you spend your own money, your own energy, your own time, your lives essentially, a big part of it, just trying to figure it out. And Chris, we're really not interested in convincing anybody of anything.

It's a history book. I mean, it is. It's history. And, you know, I guess we've always looked at this. It seems like a silly amount of money over the years that we've spent. And it is. But it's an important part of history. And we'll be gone, but that information needs to get out.

And somebody else can build on it. Sure. But if it would have stopped where it was, that would have been it. So, okay, you rent this giant, this winch, this truck, this planet. No, no. What we did, the dragon wagon is what moved the craft probably. Right. Okay, the dragon wagon was used in European theater.

It was a tank transport. You could transport anything, but mostly after like Battle of the Bulge, they used them to get the tanks out of there. You figured that's what would have been used. Because they were stored down at Holman Air Force Base after the war. Eventually auctioned off, and most of the people that bought them were loggers out in the Northwest. They were chain-driven, all-wheel drive. What a perfect, you know.

Fit. Fit. They had plenty of winches. And some of my pictures of that have welding equipment on there. In case they had to weld this on or weld that on. Talk to some people that own them now, and they were built in the Northwest also. so I forget the company right now. They're chain driven, which is very unique.

What does that mean? Sprockets on the wheel assemblies and a chain would drive it. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's a very unique design. I talked to a guy from World War II that said, I would dare anybody to get one stuck. I was just going to say that's for the purpose of being unrugged. So essentially, they're also tanks.

Yeah, kind of. There was also an armored version of it. It was the M24 and M25. And some were set up with armored plating and quote-unquote bulletproof glass back then. Then there was the unarmored version. And Bill, I got to give Bill credit, he did research using one of the military museums that told him, looked down at Holloman, and that's where they were stored. We didn't use one to reenact it.

used a truck, but we made pinchfuls. So basically we had a template. I'm this wide and I'm this tall. Which would be exactly what his dad and also Bill Nutsker would do in moving massive objects. So it's really no different. To see if it fits what roads we can get through. If we scrape this rod on this mesa, we have to scratch our head now. Right.

And we made it through. Oh, and then we had the roads. changed. The oil field companies did not want people coming in through Leibrook, which is that road's still there. Matter of fact, that's the road we had to take. Forty-four is now $5.50. Back then, $44 wasn't complete all the way into Bloomfield. I had a bunker go after me on that, and so it was there. I rode with my dad in a truck while it was there. It was unimproved. and I don't think you're going to want to take a dragon wagon with whatever weight that would be.

Right. You would come back through Leibrook. And also, you're not going to be seen. Yeah. So we did it several times. We did it down, and then we did it back up in case we missed something. A couple times it was close. Yeah, I mean, we had to use it with Toplo maps of 1948.

They come out every two years, so I think we were used. using a 47 or whatever. They didn't have one in 48 that we could find. So you were looking at the topographical map that would have been of that area rather than like a roadmap or anything else. So you're like, this is what they would have used. This is the payload that they would have had. And you're doing exactly and retracing exactly logically, according to an expert, what they

would have done. Well, you retract and you have to reenact. In other words, that's exactly what you're doing. and is reenacting as opposed to, again, we have debunkers that say, you know, oh, you just couldn't do it. Well, you have to go back to the time. And where there's a will, I mean, back then, you know what I mean? Different generation. I don't think they even thought about it. Yeah. Yeah. You had to do it. What else were in? Leave it there. I think the farther you go back in time, the more impressive things look to us because people were just harder and harder working as you go

back and they just, you know. Tough as nails. There was some really good, heavy, early moving equipment not far away, not that the military couldn't get it there to hurry. They were redoing the reservoir and dam, again, the town of Mancos. And they actually had ads in the paper looking for people to bring in borders because there were no hotels up there. Right. And we learned a lot about the big reservoir dam project. So if back then there was a pinch area, they had all the equipment to save. Yeah.

Cut the road, move it. For people that follow the history of UFOs, there's gentlemen Ted Phillips, he's passed now. And he and his group came out to Aztec. And, you know, Ted was sort of on the fence. You know, did it happen, didn't it? About Aztec. And we had Timothy Good from mainland and Stan Friedman there that day.

We've had a lot of big-name guys come out and look at it. And once you walk him through it, there's a little doubt that it happened. Yeah. And Ted was kind of being quiet. He was walking around. We were there for probably three hours.

And at the end, I said, Ted, you have something in your mind. What's up? He said, well, take all the harder work he put in here. You've missed a lot of physical evidence. And that's what Ted was is a physical evidence to die. That was his specialty. So he went and showed me.

He said, you know, they had removed some silk from being washed down. And he went down in the soil, I don't know, six, eight inches. That's kind of where you have to go before you hit the pan of the dirt. And there were trees that had been cut off. You know, like somebody took a chainsaw and cut it. And we call that road where the concrete slab, we nicknamed that the military road. So the concrete slab. Mm-hmm.

This is really interesting. I got to see this firsthand is, I would say, what you say, five by five? It's meter by meter, 39 by 39. Okay, so even smaller than that. Nine inches thick. Yeah, nine inches thick, not an oil cap. Which is, you know, a lot of people claim it to be. All those skeptics, that's an oil cap.

You took us down to oil caps, and they're huge. They're huge, and they're nice and smooth, and, you know, this was interesting. So for those wondering what we're talking about here, to pull up some of this material or this craft or whatever, you would have had to have some solid footing for these... The outriggers. Yeah, the outriggers to come down and just sort of, you know, apply pressure so that you can pull. Exactly, pull with the winch, because otherwise you're just sinking.

You're going to winch and you're going to sink down. Right. So they had these things, but there's no footing. So one of the reasons why this retrieval took as long as it did, which was about two weeks. Two weeks, yeah. was because they had to wait for this slab. Apparently, they had to wait for this slab to cure. Now, you go there not knowing there's a slab.

You go there not knowing there's a slab. Assuming that there had to be a slab in the area for this winch to hang on to, and then you find it. Well, I got to give credit where credits do it. Randy Barnes found. I got some paperwork from the military. A little bit of top off. Thank you.

Okay. A little bit for you? Yep. Thank you. Welcome. In a couple of Freedom of Information releases, I got a release from, I guess it's okay to say the Air Force.

And they talk about, it gave me a name of a guy. They didn't redact it. And he was on some kind of recovery. They do not mention Aztec. They just mentioned a guy. exercise. Mm-hmm.

And long story short, took a year, but I found him. Okay. So after his stint in the Air Force, he went back to where he was born and raised as a child. And I call him,

and I said, I'm doing some historical research. Found a document with your name on it. I'm going to be up in the Boston area. It's not that big of a deal to drive to where you live now. Could we meet? Sure. Love to see what you're doing. So I brought all the documents and said, this is the group I'm looking at.

And it was Walker Airfield, which was Roswell the year before. They changed it to Walker. And, you know, he's not going through the whole pile. and I said, they're talking about retrieval or doing something. I'm looking at Aztec, or I'm looking at a small town in New Mexico. And he said, yeah, I didn't go there. I stayed here the whole time. And I said, okay, he said it was, I think it was Aztec.

I said, that's the one I'm looking for. And he said, yeah, I got debriefed every day. I sat in on the debriefings. my job, he explained how compartmentalized they were, which was how it would be. My job was to get whatever equipment they needed. Excuse me. I had to get some flat beds. I had to do this. I had to do that.

What's your interest in this? Obviously not flatbeds. I said, no, that's part of the interest. And then he goes on to tell me part of the retrieval was delayed because wherever they had to back in and cut a road to was silty soil. Bingo. Now, he claimed from his memory they did two slams. Right. We've never found the second.

You just found one. We found one. Right. Now, you know where it is. We could be going north another 18 or 20 feet because that whole hillside's, washed down. That's right. But anyway, I share it with Randy. Randy was my local. He lived in Farmington. We were very good friends, and he had a huge interest in Aztec since the day he and his wife moved there. So he goes out with a piece of rebar

and starts sticking it in the sand. Proding around. And all of a sudden it's thud. Dink. Thud. Thud. And they dig it out. And he did. Well, he did by himself. He dug all the silt off of it exposing what we know today is the slab. There's a picture in the book. Yeah. And, you know, it's a bit of a shame because you go there now and I guess tourists who know about it. They all take a chunk of it.

They're all taking chunk. But that's also part of the beauty of it. Yeah. Because it's easy to chip apart. Yeah. That's local silica that they used. Yeah. They brought in the Portland cement, used the local bedrock or the, whatever was around

them. And you can tell how panicked they were by that. Yeah. Plus, no paper trail. Right. You know, you're not going out and buy. and going to the local cement factory and being like, hey, we need this. I need a truck up here tomorrow to pour a sled.

No, no. They grabbed what they could. And if you look at every other oil cap or every other piece of cement in the area, it's a nice refined, you know, a professionally done thing that's much larger. You drove us down to a few of them. Just to have a look at them. 36 feet long. This thing is rubble. Yeah.

Yeah. You kick it hard enough and it'll break. Like it's, you know, like on the edges. It's, it, and he found that. What? I mean, that must have been, for me, that's the nail in the coffin. Yeah, he was very excited what he called me. He called me and said, I found it.

I uncovered it. I said, found what? I covered what? I found the slab. Could you imagine, you know, finding that, one of the odds of finding that slab if there wasn't a crash? No kidding. Did you know, because there was nothing there? Because we have, and I can use my brother as an example, who works in the oil field.

Yeah. But not only my brother, but by the other folks that have gone out there, and there is absolutely no reason for that to be there. As you said earlier that, you know, it's there, but it's not in the right place if you were going to have a welcome. You'd have it way further down. You've got to dig through all that silt and all that dirt to get down to the bedrock or whatever the, you know, the edge of the ground is. And there is a hole that's been, we've gone in to,

if it had been a well site, it would have exploded. It would have explored. I called the BLM, Bureau of Land Management, who has jurisdiction on part of that land at the craft site. And I didn't know where their boundary was and who owns this.

So I called them and I talked to them and they said, well, what's your question? I said, the question is, I want to take a core sample of the, that slab and send it to a lab. It's not ours. That's all I wanted to hear. And so I hired a company to do a core sample, and then we set it down to a lab in Texas.

They could, it would be very, very expensive to do a leech water test and some aging on it. What we wanted to see is, was it done after 48? Right. And the rebar, all rebar, has. a date stamp. I see. We didn't capture enough. Right, you'd have to go back and get like a three foot section of it, which I don't want to do and deface it anymore. Yeah. They thought we were safe by saying it's, it's not 1970, it's not 1960, it's not 1950, maybe it's older than 48. Don't know, it's another question mark. But the late Carl Flok, who's a big Aztec debunker,

he was a UFO debunker anyway. We'll get to him. Yeah. But he, I had a... Got a bone to pick with Carl Flaw. Yeah, I did have a couple. I made a comment at a UFO symposium in Aztec. They used to have the best UFO symposium. And I made a comment that I'm half tempted to do a core sample. And Carl said, you do, you'll blow yourself to smithereens.

He said, that's a well, cap. I said, well, you push me now. I'm going to drill a hole in it. Why don't you be standing there when I do? Because he only lived two hours away. Yeah, but he's never been in the site. Well, he finally did. He finally did.

Yeah. But he spoke a lot about Aztec long before you ever went there. Yeah, imagine. Yeah, I basically intimidated him to go. Yeah. I said, Carl, you can't be the world expert on Aztec and live two hours away. And how I found out, I had him in the van. We're taking tours to the crash site for the purpose of the library, a fundraiser.

And Carl's like, ah, this is right. My God, you know. You know, you went through it. And I said, yeah, Carl, it doesn't get any better. Well, how far is this crash site from here? This is beating me up. How much longer do we have to go? I said, and I didn't know if he hadn't been to the crash.

I said, Coral. Do you not know where the crash site is? No, I don't need to know where a crash site is. It's not a crash site. Quit calling it that. He's hanging on to his seatbelt. I said, you've never been out here? You're the world expert on Aztec, and you live two hours away.

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Text us at 247-247 or chat with us at www.comnetts Ontario. Standard message and data rates may apply. Maybe that'll get to the National Archives. Yeah, very happy to... I mean, we saw the redacted files. Yeah. There's an inch thick. Yeah.

Who else can you, can you FOIA requests an inch thick file on? Like, who has that? No one has that. And why? Well, yeah, the FBI. FBI and the Air Force, the two guys that you would think were the worst to work with are the best to work with. But they're also the ones who claimed it was all, you know, horse crap. Yeah, but they've kind of changed over the years.

Yeah, especially now with the, you know, the task force and whatever they've said. FBI seems to be actually helping. But again, it could be factions within, you know, these agencies that are just not even talking to each other. But I've dealt with some that are just out and out rude. Yeah. Yeah. Army.

Oh, yeah. They're horrible. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that makes sense to me. You expect them to be a little less friendly. Okay. So you guys, you know, uncovering the slab and getting a core sample, getting a core sample,

getting attested, all right, this is made of local silica, it is not an oil cap, finding a slab like this that is manmade buried under a bunch of sand out in the middle of the desert, literally, the chances of that are just so mind-blowing if there wasn't a retrieval of some kind there prior. So this, to me, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was a retrieval of something. Oh, please. Right? Yeah.

Like we can all, and with the witnesses and everything else, something was there and there was equipment, large equipment brought out there, the military presence, the helicopters, was there to pull something out. Now, now we come across the idea that this thing came apart in multiple pieces, you know, Frank Scully talks about it. He was approached by a bunch of scientists that also came to him, that he had to sort of. put together in an anonymous or pseudonym known as Dr. G. Tell us about the next steps of this craft. So they put it on to different flatbeds. Before that, I want to just say something. Before that, the scientists actually were at the site.

Right, yes, because it was a two-week-long period before they sent this off. Yeah, let's talk about some of that. So it's a real busy time there. They're guarding, keeping people. They're also shipping in scientists from all over. These are world-class scientists. I mean, it's amazing some of the things that they accomplished. And what they accomplished, and we'll talk about that later, after the craft.

But they all had their areas of specialty. And so once they figured out that the craft came apart in the four pieces, then each one would go in with their area of specialty. and assess it. Yeah. And how do we know that? Where does that information come from? Oh, my gosh.

Well, Scully with the Dr. G's and described it. We found out that from a gentleman that approached us who worked for Scopeworks, right? Up in Ohio? He worked out of Iowa. Was it? Okay, Iowa. And his job was to, he was at the same location where they actually had the craft, and he found out there that there had been nurses at the crash site.

Now, this is after the fact, but he found out that there had been, and knew the nurses that had been at the crash site, and whenever someone would go into the crash, to the saucer, they would get nauseated and sick sometimes throw up if they were in there for very long. And more than 20 minutes. They ended up capped at 15 minutes. So the nurses would be there and monitor that

to make sure that they were getting in and out in that time and not having any problems. And then they were from Wright Pat. They came back to Wright Pat when the craft... I think the center section immediately went to Los Alamos. Right. because that was the power section. Uh-huh.

The three outer lintinier wings, so to speak, they probably, probably went to right-pat. Right airfield. Right airfield back then, yeah. I think eventually then it was all reassembled in building 828 at Wright Pet, which later be, well, Ray Patterson now today. Yeah, we interviewed a gentleman that worked

there during the reassembly. And I have no reason, and neither to Suzanne, we had conference calls with he and his wife. Oh, yeah. And I have no reason not to believe the guy. What did he say? He got called down. He worked for a company that was a division of Eastman Kodak, the film company. He was more in their instrumentation group.

It was a separate group from the film group. he was called down because he was an expert in using this equipment. Matter of fact, he wrote the manual for the equipment. You can go on the Internet and find it, and you'll see that he signed off on it. He gets down there. I'm not quite sure that he knew he was going to work on a flying saucer. But he gets down there, and lo and behold, is a huge flying saucer.

everybody was very compartmentalized. There'd be maybe three groups of people in the craft at one given time. Don't talk to them. Don't ask questions. Just do your job. Not like what Bob Lazare claims to be. Exactly. Yeah.

Again, the nurse, there was one Caucasian and one African-American nurse. Up until seven, eight years ago, the African-American nurse was still alive living in Florida. We don't know what happened to the Caucasian one. They were all exchanging Christmas cards. That's how close they became as friends. So he is in there. He never went into detail what the equipment did. He's giving me the overview of what you really need to look into

because I, you know, this is what I witnessed. They had... But he knew what the equipment did. He did. And he didn't. And he's like, I'm going to give you some bread. Crumbs. Yeah, pretty much. Huh.

He would talk openly about everything else years ago. It was right after our second book came out. And I did a quick, really quick check. You found him or he found you? He found us. He found us. He called me, and Scott was traveling. I was on my way to Savannah, Georgia.

I'm not an interstate guy, so I'm on the back roads, and I get a phone call. I was shocked David had a connection. And I answered it. He goes, ah, just talk to your lovely wife. You got a minute? And like, sure, because I'm bored. And he said, I think I got something that may help your research or add to it. So I got a Burger King bag from my to-go order and I'm taking notes on it.

And I'm thinking, at first, you don't know how to respond to that. And all of a sudden, I'm like, whoa, okay, this guy could possibly be the real deal. you don't know that the first five phone calls. Well, and even when he spoke to me, I wouldn't just do that normally. I mean, we're very accessible to people that want to share information. But, you know, Scott's traveling. His mind needs to be where he needs to be. Yeah.

But I spend some time with the gentleman. And, you know, you kind of get a sense. Sure. That's not 100%. But you kind of get a sense. And I thought, this might be worth it. And so. We know he lived there the years he's saying.

said he did. He paid real estate tax and some other little incidentals that I said, okay, the story may be bogus, but he really did live outside of Dayton, Ohio. Okay. And I did find his manual on the internet for the equipment. He goes into a lot of detail. He talked about Fenman's, the scientist Fenman from Los Alas. He worked on the whole Manhattan Project. And Lippish, who was a, I don't think he was quite a paperclip scientist, but after World War II, he was German, and he came over to work with us.

Both of those names you see repeatedly. The Manhattan Project. The Manhattan Project. Yeah, Lippish, not so much, but Femman, he was actually one of my heroes. Fendman, there's a building in Los Alamos. Named after him, physics lab. This guy worked with them.

This guy worked with them, is what you're saying. They worked on the craft. They worked on the craft, but he's aware of that. He was aware of that because he was introduced. I see. So somehow they folded into his team. Lippish was, his expertise was Taylorless Aircraft. So there's a big chance that Oppenheimer was working on you.

Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. I mean, if these guys are like under Oppenheimer at some level, unless Oppenheimer was purposely shut out for whatever reason. It would be hard to amend. Well, yeah. I mean, he fell out a political favor for a while. Exactly.

With his communist ties. That's what I mean. Yeah. But I don't think he would have been shut out of... Too brilliant not to include it. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's like, okay, we don't agree with your politics, but...

Yeah. We got something for you to work on. We're going to overlook some things. Okay, so he drops these names. Incredible. What else does he say? Lipish work for Collins, radio company out of Iowa. That's where I went with Iowa. I forgot the New York connection.

And they had a skunk works out by the lake. And that's where Lippish worked. Now, here's Collins that's known for their radio and communications, yet they're building a secret aircraft out at their skunk works. And so Lippish is now at Wright Pat on loan, whatever, and working with Fenman. and our guy is working in the craft and they, he told Suzanne and I, I don't think they ever really figured out.

He left there in 57, I think. That sounds about right. So we're going, I was born in 57. Sure. And they would, they got it to power up. They got the craft to power up. And he said when they powered it up,

the craft went translucent. How do they power it up? I don't know. Okay, probably some high voltage. I'm sure. Stuff. That's a really interesting detail because that's a detail I brought up to Bob Lizarr when I spoke to him as well. And he was quite delighted to hear that because he goes, that's exactly it.

Because I said it wasn't completely transparent. It was like opaque. Opaic. You can see figures behind it. Yeah. So almost like some type of stealthy camouflage thing, but not completely transparent. and when I said that to Bob he just got so excited

because he goes that's exactly what it was like he's like when the panels of the craft because he had one individual panel go opaque while he was in the craft and then he just was so enamored by it he got up and started walking towards it and his partner was like yanking out

I'm like what are you doing you can't do that you know get over here and then writing would appear on this wall weird strange writing but he was very interested in that detail So, yeah. And so he saw this craft get powered up. Yeah, he was part of the power up game.

And he tells you this. Yeah. And he was really very cautious of what he told us. How so? I mean, I think. Long pauses. Yeah, he had to think about everything he answered. How he answered it.

And how he answered it, right? I think that was, he took his time and how he chose his words and. And was there anything he told you that you can't tell me? You think? No. No, he was very careful about everything he told you. Yeah. Knowing that you're a researcher.

Knowing that we're going to write book three. Right. This was, book two had just come out. Right. His wife actually still contacts me. Yeah. Really? Yeah, she's still a lot.

And she's, you know, she's an interesting lady. I've never actually met her. But over the years, she's, been very supportive and actually wanted this information to get out. You think she's also kind of in the dark? Oh, I'm sure on a lot of stuff she was. But I think she felt good about him coming and visiting with that. Probably cathartic for him to some extent as well.

You know, you got to get that off your chest at some point. I think that's right. And I can say being a wife, you know, you want to see your partner thrive. Yeah. And carrying a heavy load like that is not always easy. We went back and looked at the history of building 828, and it fits perfectly with the timing. It was a very large building.

I forget the gentleman in his command that authorized it to be built at right bat. I think it was completed, 49 or 50. And this would have been... It's almost purposely. Yeah, you would think. Possibly.

Yeah. Possibly. Yeah, why not? As we state in the book, Lippish was German Nazi. And Fenman, his parents, came over here from... I forget what country of Romania, wherever. They were Jewish.

and he said it was so weird because this isn't that long after World War II. He said, these guys worked together famously. All about the science. It's all about, yeah, it's all about put your differences aside. And Fendman was the kind of guy, and this is several people have told me this. When they did the first atomic blast down at White Sands, they're all in their bunkers, and they all got their thick goggles on, you know, welding goggles, Basically, and Fendon's laying on the hood of his Ford pickup with his back against the windshield going, let it rip, you know.

And, of course, sadly, he died young and he died of hideous cancers that he was exposed to. But very hands-on. Got the best view, the argument. He had a heck of a view, yeah. Talk about history-making, huh? Yeah. Pretty good tan, too. Yeah, I bet.

But he, he, that's, when you read about him and talk to people at Los Alamos about him, his reputation was a by hands-on guy. You know, let's get in there, roll up our sleeves and work on it. And that's what this guy said. He was known at Wright Patterson for doing. You know, can't fix it, take it apart, get it out here, and let's test it. Did he tell you anything else about the craft or any of the history or the beings or anything? Did he know anything else about?

The one nurse told him that when somebody said, where did this come from, She said Aztec, and somebody in the group said, Aztec Indians? This is something in the Indian? And she said, no, no, it's a town of Aztec, New Mexico. And that's probably what struck this guy's eye when he saw the title of your other books. Right. Right.

Yeah. So he says, unless there were two or three that went down out there, I think I was working on the one you're talking about. Plus the fact that the description was so much similar. Yeah. Now, this guy's an honest. honest, I assume, or is he out there? He's passed away, yeah, but is he out there in terms of his name?

His name. No, I'll tell it to you privately. Okay. Now, there was another person at Wright, Pat, as well, if I'm not mistaken, that had been assigned to essentially have a ledger of people that were out there working at Aztec or working on, you know, the craft or on the retrieval. and he had to pencil them in as being sick. Doing something else. Yeah, right? So this is another witness.

Yeah. Actually, he was at Walker Air Force. Oh, he's at Walker Air Force. I see. His job was to make sure years later, if you were in a bar with your buddies and you, oh, yeah, I worked on a flying saucer back in 48 and da-da-da-da-da, that somebody could say,

well, that's not true. You were at McDill Air Force Base. and you were in the infirmary with a twisted ankle. Here it is right here. And that's what he did. He said there were up to 200 people working on the recovery. That he had to invent stories for. On a daily ledger.

And this person came to you, or you found that? A little bit of both. But, yeah. Scott tracked him down. I tracked him down. But he was very willing to talk. And gave me details we already knew about that were not public. They weren't in Steinbensburg.

They weren't in. Really? They weren't in... Any details you want to share, or is that still something you... Just basically, the military had to cut a road. At that point, we hadn't even talked about that. The slab, he worked with the other gentleman that we were talking about earlier that had to requisition all these...

Whatever. And it had to take charge of the town, essentially. And then there's also... I'm sorry, just lost my thought. Give me one second. Yeah, you're fine. Give me a one second. Happens to me.

I don't know. How are we been? It still happens to me. Go ahead. It was something that was going to add to. Give me just a second. I don't know. I'll use part of, so maybe this will jog it. So this gentleman helped, did he help locate the slab?

Or was he just aware or he would imagine the slab? No, he was just aware that there was one out there. That there was one out there? One or two. One or two. We had to pour concrete. is what you say you had to pour concrete, without knowing that you had found the son?

He hadn't even known that yet. Okay. The other thing that this gentleman shared was about some of the other jobs that the military had, and one of them was, once the craft was moved out of there, was taking and re-landscaping. Yeah.

Right. And you saw that. And you saw that. I'm so glad we brought this up, because for me, that is one of those pieces evidence that I can see just much like the slab that's there that's tangible. Tangible, exactly.

And again, you're out there. There's no reason for you to be anywhere near there. You've got to drive to get to the nearest oil cap and to the nearest oil well. Like, it's really out of the way. Yeah. And so there is the photo that you guys, you know, have of like, and we, you know, we took a drone out there with Jesse. Here it is. With Jesse's team, you know, I went out there at seven in the morning.

with Brian theographer. You know, we got some burritos for everybody. And we're like, we're going to go get this shot. So me and him woke up extra early to get this shot because it's just the sunrise out in that desert is so beautiful as well. You want to end sunsets. But we wanted to essentially get a view from the top that shows not only the washed out area where this craft would have been because, okay, there's a few things. here. So first of all, you get to this place. You had mentioned earlier, they found cut trees. Right. In this area. But there's not only cut trees. There's trees that are deruted. There's

trees that are broken. And there's literally dozens of them, like maybe over a hundred. Like in the area, there's so many. If you're out in the desert, there's no reason for there to be deruted, cut, broken trees, unless there was some type of fire that happened or a lightning strike. Right. But very unusual to have so many, and they're just still lying there. I'll give you the backstory on that, too. Back when Bill Steinman, if you look at his pictures of the craft site and early pictures that I took of the crash site, those trees are all splayed from where you were laying toward what we call the parking area.

Except the ones that are, the newer ones that are planted. Well, yeah. So they're intermingled. You have some that are like growing this way, which is towards where the winch would have been. Right. And then you have other ones, the younger ones, that are all upright. And I might mention, when we say trees, just so everyone is on the same page, they're pinion trees.

Right. So this is not like a big oak or something like this. These are like a bush, a tall bush. And they're an evergreen type material of species. And there are where you get your pinion nuts or pine nuts. Right. Yeah. So, and they're probably, I don't know, the highest ones are probably, what, eight feet?

Yeah, eight or ten feet. They're not huge, huge trees. And they're growing all crooked and spindly. That's exactly, yeah. They're artistic. But they're all facing. If you look at this chunk and there's a chunk here, you can actually see it's like here. Yeah.

As soon as you cross that, these trees stop leaning over. They're just straight up. And in this section, there's dead trees all over. They're splayed. It's a bald spot. They're broke. Yes. And then you have these rows, which are very straight lines.

Perfect rows of trees. Of trees that have been planted subsequently due to, you know, I guess it was BLM that was, you know, sent to plant. They didn't know they were covering up a year. No, it was the military. It was the military. It was the military. There was a military at that time. Yeah, because we interviewed a guy that was part of that.

I see. they're planting trees doing a terrible job because they're planting them in straight lines, just like Johnny Appleseed over here. Like Johnny, like Mother Nature does, right? Perfect lines. Think about it, though. If you were told to go in and landscape this area, you know, around our homes or buildings or whatever, you're landscaping in lines, linear.

And whereas Mother Nature is organic and it's intermittent. Yeah, they're not told you're covering up a crash recovery of the UFO. No. He was told that they were, he was on a cleanup mission team for the Air Force. I see. So that would mean prototype bombers, prototype fighters, a lot of activity in New Mexico. Once whatever was taken out, short of using a vacuum cleaner, they were told to clean the crash site. I see.

Pieces of Lexan, pieces of special aluminum, whatever. But it was all aircraft related. And he said, we could tell. when we got to Aztec, that it wasn't a normal one. They didn't have much debris. The craft was intact. The only thing they had to do was basically re-landscape where heavy equipment had come in and replant the trees.

Now, the problem with that is that these mesa caps, a lot of them, if not done properly, the water's just going to wash it away. You get a big flood going in there. you get a big downpour, and it's just going to wash all your work, all those seeds, all those bushes or whatever, down the cliff. Right. And that's exactly what happens here.

Right. Where this might have been clearly covered by all sorts of brush, all sorts of bush, is now a giant bald spot. Right. And you wonder, well, okay, you got bald spot, you got dead trees around. You got trees that are going this way, clearly in the line of exactly where that, you know, cement cap was. to me, that was one of the most eye-opening revelations that I'd come across with this case.

Being there and seeing all that for myself was like, no, clearly there's been activity here. Going back to Steinman's pictures and my pictures, where the big bald spot is, the big landing site for the lack of a better work, there were trees going like that all the way to the parking lot. The only reason they got moved, if you know, remember now, they're behind the plaque. Yeah. When the library wanted to have tours out there, they were told by somebody at the BLM, you got a lot of trip hazards out there, and that's, you're going to be crossing private land and our land. They've got to be moved.

So we spent a weekend a month or so before, a group of us, including Randy Barnes, and we moved all the dead trees behind where the plaque was already there. Yeah. So when you're still there, those dead trees. Yeah. Yeah. A lot had been hacked up into firewood, but probably 80% of the trees are still there. They're just all stacked behind the plaque.

Yeah. But, well, when we were out there, that was. And again, no reason to have dead trees out there. Yeah. I might add that this is one of, well, I couldn't even give you. infinite reasons of why when you do research, you can't just look from one perspective. We had looked, Scott had stayed on the crash site. I lived there. I mean, you know, we had spent time there. We're familiar with it. And then a friend of ours at the time was the mayor of Aztec.

And he said, why don't I fly over and take a picture? Well, now we have drones, but we didn't at that time. Sure. And he flew over and it just went to show, never even crossed. From our perspective on the ground, you did not see those rocks. No, he lines of trees. Yep. And when they came down, he said, do you see that? And we just sat there quiet.

We couldn't believe that that was there in front of us all those years. Only in that narrow path where that pieces would have been dragging through all these trees. So it just reminds us, and we've had this happen many, many times. over the years of how you have to go sit in somebody else's shoes, look from a different perspective, try and see, and not just, well, here's our answer and just keep going. Same reason why I laid down where the bodies were. Exactly. No, exactly.

I don't know why I did it, but I thought this is an interesting perspective. There it is. Okay. So the scientists that are there, they eventually relay this information allegedly according to, you know, Frank Scully, to Frank Scully, who is, you know, for those people who don't know who Frank Scully is, a movie producer in Hollywood. More a writer. A movie writer. Yeah.

Famous, though, by, you know, Hollywood Sanders back then, pretty well known, well respected. But he did a lot of work. Financially, as a writer, he produced enough that he took care of his family. He didn't need this. No. And I think that this is always really important about Frank to me is that when people in Hollywood, he ran with the Hollywood crowd, people in Hollywood had problems or trouble.

He would come and stay on his, what they call the Scully Ranch. Scully Ranchers is a Scully Circus. And he had a good-sized family, and they would stay with them. And they could come and take care of themselves and heal and know that they were safe. Their secrets would not be shared. Sure. I personally think that that's why he had a reputation for that for being trusted.

He didn't blah, blah. He also wrote people's books for them. He was a ghost writer. So people knew that they could trust him. I believe that that's why, of all people, that the Dr. G's went to him and said, we want to tell the story. It's going to be released to the public. in a year. In a year, let's get going on it. I believe that with all my heart and soul,

and he, to this day, you know, to the day he died, has never... Devulged. Never devolved to Dr. G. was. And I think that there are so many things. The book, when you read his book, Frank Scully's book, oh, he's a fabulous writer. I mean, he's almost lyrical, you know, and he puts riddles and things in there, but he is a phenomenal writer. Absolutely. But he is very careful and he has never divulge. And I really, really believe that they knew that about him.

And you can't say that about everybody. But subsequently, I mean, researchers will rise over time and you guys will do a lot of the digging as well, and Bill Steinman and so many others. You've compiled a list of who you think the Dr. G's are. And now a lot of people are going to read, you know, the cliff notes or the head. lines and they'll be like, Dr. G is Leo Gapower. That starts with the G. Right. But there's

more to it. Who are some of the people that you think are represented by Dr. G.? Let me say one thing. Frank Scully's daughter actually would see Dr. G., the main Dr. G., come and speak to her dad, and it was not Leo Gap. And how do you know that? Because she also knew Leo Gaveauer. Right. So I didn't want to interrupt that. But I think that's important to know that... She's spoken to her? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Years ago.

You've spoken to her. You've also spoken to Leo Gaybauer's daughter. That's correct. One of two daughters. One of two twins, right? Yeah. And so you have, you've done quite a bit of digging on, you know, other people's supposed debunks to disprove them quite easily, actually. They're easily dismissed.

But before we get into that stuff, Let's talk about the scientists. Okay. Bill Steinman came up with the actual doctor. Well, Dr. G. is a broad terminology for all the scientists that worked on it. The head guy that first contacted Scully was probably Carl Highland. He worked very brilliant guy, Dr. Carl Highland. He worked his last thing before he retired.

worked at the Colorado School of Minds. Brilliant physicist. The one that I came up with was Jonathan Torrance Tate, who worked at the University of Newsom. Yeah, he was a brilliant. They're all brilliant. They're all brilliant. Bill and I had many a conversation before he died, and we all became friends.

He and his wife and Suzanne and I, we got to dinner. and lunches and Bill says, well, you know, Jonathan Torrance, Tate, they both had a history of going to school college here and then in Germany, right before the war broke out. Their whole background,

their whole resume was very similar. And, of course, they knew each other. I kind of stuck with Tate. And Tate mysteriously died right when the book, right when Scully's book came out. died of a stroke. In 1950.

Wink, wink. Yeah. Yeah. A couple years before that, his wife died. Highland retired in 48 after making a trip to the Southwest. Right. That's public. You could go right there and read his resume.

He came back from wherever he was in the Southwest and turned in his retirement paperwork. Tate, of course, like I said, died in 50. after pouring through all the research Steinman did and what I did and Suzanne did, we went in open boxes at the University of New Mexico that had never been opened. When you go down, you go down in the vaults, and they bring you, you put gloves on, and it's a big deal, and they have the people that have signed up. This is one of my favorite experiences. I'm sorry, but I got interject.

I just love this. That's all right. But after really laying it on the ground, okay, you know, we're the jury, which one's Dr. G. I do believe Steinmet hit it on the head. It was Carl Highland. Everybody in that whole group, there were nine scientists because one of them died and they had to replace one. One died even before Tate. But Highland, if you go word for word of what Scully says, Highland was the guy.

So can I tell the doctor's taste story? Yeah. It was great. Scott and I were in Minnesota and we go to the University of Minnesota. It had to make all these appointments. You go to the library. I mean, seriously, it's a huge, beautiful place. Have to put on little white gloves.

They bring out all these boxes that we had to do in advance. I mean, literally it took several months and work to get done. So we get in there. And, you know, your eyes are about this big because it's just there's no sound. It's quiet. And we sit there and we don't know what exactly we're looking for, but the boxes, you know, we start to unload the boxes, and it's like a treasure hunt.

You're going through and each one and this is interesting, but really nothing, no big deal. And then all of a sudden we start to see a pattern. Oh, this was such an amazing experience for me. It was so emotional. So the pattern that we see is, is Tate, who is a genius, as a professor, he has, he's just done so many innovative things. And with the students that he works with, he never puts his name first, or when he works

in conjunction with someone, never puts his name first. Sometimes he eliminates his name. It just was a person that was very private, a tall, good-looking. man, thin, but he just never liked attention drawn to him, ever. So fast forward to, and everyone says how brilliant, how kind and generous he is. I mean, you just see these notes. Through all these boxes, we keep seeing this over and over. Students, professors, you know, his colleagues.

And then we see where he takes a trip to the Southwest. Hold music. Not what you want to hear when a pipe dispersed in your basement is. flooding. That's why intact insurance answers 2 million claim calls per year within 20 seconds. So instead of hearing this lovely track, you'll hear this in seconds. Hello, Intact Insurance. The new Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid is the most fuel-efficient cross-track yet. That means less time filling your tank and more time filling your day. More court time, more ride time, more lake time, more camp time, more go time. The new 27 Subaru Cross-Trek

Consumer Reports top-rated subcompact SUV. Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer Reports is not indoors products or services. Drove before interstates. And this is... He hated flying. And this is in 48, March of 48. Ah.

And Scott and I are like this. You just kind of get giddy. And we start soon. It confirms the suspicion. And it says, he can. comes back, and this is what's so powerful, he comes back and he calls people from all over, colleagues, students, everyone together. Basically a news club, a news, a press, like a press release, press conference.

But it's a conference, so he has everyone there, and he doesn't have someone else speaking. He is the head speaker, and he gets up there, and he said, based on what I have just seen in the Southwest on my trip, we now have the ability. to change the world. We have ways to, for fuel and feeding people that we've never had, that we've never had before.

Holy smokes, to have all that attention on him was so out of a character. Yeah. And it's like nailed it. You know, it's... That is a speech you would have after seeing something like that.

Yeah. The world has changed for you. Yeah. Then all this time up until this point, he has worked, I guess I'll use the term, and it might be a better term for it, in the defense industry. Sure. He stops that immediately, and he goes into a philanthropic mode for the last of his life. Wow. Which wasn't long. Which wasn't long.

Yeah, less than two years. And probably also, you know, where he would have turned to Frank in trying to, like, please. to someone else, hey, you know, this has got to get out. This has got to get out. Right. Wow. How powerful. Getting back to the other scientists, I know I'll make this quick because we've got a lot to

cover here. They all had resumes that anybody would like to have. Half of them went on to form geoscience, which later became Texas instruments. Right. they took it public then changed it actually they spun it off as a separate company actually a company is still alive in Canada

right here in Canada you mean in Nevada no actually oh I'm sorry I'm sorry that's right that's Western Canada that's right Southwestern

and it was really funny because then we had to dig into their background What did each scientists bring to the party? And they all worked on projects in the War Department, working for Vanderburt, Bush, during World War II. Every one of them. Big surprise.

Without. Yeah, yeah, right. They had a lot of people criticized Scully's book when it came out in 1950, September 16th, 1950, I believe, because he was talking about we could, we could find enemy subs and blow them out of the water. And people were going, that's nonsense, bullshit. Well, it turned out they did.

They weren't blowing up Japanese so much as they were German subs off the coast of North Carolina or wherever. They had a mad device, magnetic anomaly detection device, which is still used by the Air Force and the Navy today. And they would find the subs. through their metal hall and then drop charges down on him. So where he sounded like he was talking about... Some science fiction.

Some science fiction stuff. We were going through it going, here's another one. Here's another one. Looking it up. Yep, that was the Vannever-Bush project also. Yeah. How would he know? Yeah, right.

Yeah. How to Hollywood writer now? Yeah, because that stuff probably was still top secret in 1950. Well, and the fact, do you remember the impact that Texas Instruments had? you know, if they went from GSI, created Texas instruments, they were ahead of the game. Yeah, way ahead. That's your Raytheon, your, you know, high-tech company back then. And they were really, really, Suzanne and I had to move out of our house.

We had a pipe break while we were not home. So, you know, what kind of damage that would do. So the insurance company moved us to a living-type hotel where we had living room, dining room kitchen. For a month and a half. Yeah, for a month and a half. We got a lot of the first book done during that because there's nothing to do it. Hunker down.

Yeah, we hunker down and got out and were able to do research. I called Texas Instruments. They gave me the name of a retired employee. He gave me an education like I couldn't have bought anywhere. Yeah. He said, well, here's what we did back at GSA. and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And here were the players.

And, you know, not talking about Aztec and a flying saucer retrieval, that would have probably shut them down. But talking about, walk me through post-World War II and all the technology, and this guy was brilliant. So you need to be looking up carter, you need to be looking up green, and all the people that were... So you give you a lot of the names that you researched. Wow.

Almost every one, actually. So he was a big help. Yeah, because like you're back then, you know, Texas Instruments or whatever, and you're, let's say, a scientist working there, or anybody in the sort of technical science field, you're looking up at a lot of these guys as like superheroes. Oh, yeah. That are working at the top, that are working on these projects

that you only aspire to be a part of hopefully one day. Right. And so those are the names that he was giving you. Yeah. That makes sense. Right. I might add that Scully discusses about, some of the other things that were inside.

And again, he looked foolish at the time, but things that were found inside of the craft. And there was almost like a petrograph writing. Mm-hmm. There was like a mirrored sunglasses. You know how like a mirrored sunglasses you would see that type of material. When they actually found the hole on the craft, the one hole. It was a porthole, but it was not visible.

It blended right in with everything. So they were able to do that. There were flat screen TVs. There were flat, small... Touch pads or... No, they were like CDs, really, with information on them. Whoa. They had booklets that seemed to have writing on them,

and we really spent time trying to see who to try and locate those and see, you know, what information. Not so much locate those, but locate the top. Who would have read that? The cryptologist would have been. And it looked like his name wasn't Stanton, but he was Dr. Friedman. He worked with NSA, CIA, everybody. Unfortunately, he's long past, but that would have been something that would have

funned it on to his desk. Right into him, yeah. If not, and I can't pronounce the guy's name. Your buddy, UAP Gerb mentioned him in the Aztec. Okay. From our talk in Maryland. It would have also been like a decipher. Yeah, he got the pronunciation, right?

I'll butcher it's so bad. I know I will. But they were the two leading cryptologists. Wow. How would you even go about deciphering that anyways? I have no idea. There's no comparison, right? So like human.

Wow. Like trying to. Yeah. Avaluate cats me out. Exactly. Precisely. Not, you know, I mean, worth trying, but, you know. Okay.

So these are the scientists. That's Dr. G. How, okay, now we have a JP Con coming out in 1952. You know, you Google Aztec. Hoax. First thing that comes up. And it comes up multiple times. The Aztec crash hoax.

It's about 50-50, honestly. Yeah. But, I mean, you know. you read hoax, the wiki page and all that, you know, immediately if you're looking at this from an outside perspective, you're going to go, ah, this has already been debunked. Not going to waste my time. Yeah. And most of that, I would say most of the harm comes from this, you know, one-page lazy debunk by J.P. Con, which claims that Leo Gaybauer and Silas Newton, who are apparently Dr. G., are behind all of this, and these guys are snake oil salesmen.

These guys are, they've been imprisoned according to this. It's this whole slanderous piece that hinges its entirety on these two guys being crooks. Tell us about Silas Newton and Leo Gay-Bauer. Well, in 1950, when the book came out, the FBI and Frank Scully will both tell you he was worth $20 million. And those FBI documents. Silas Newton. Silas Newton. Those FBI documents are in this book. Right.

So the guy who's a snake oil salesman who's trying to make a dollar off of this is worth $20 million at the time. At the time. At the time. Okay. That's $1950. So not just some low-level crook that J.P. Con makes him out to be. Right. Understood.

The low-level crook may have been J.P. con. I don't know where to begin to start. I guess there's a really good letter, three-page letter in this book that came right out of Frank Scully's archives. It's a university of university. Where's the university? We want to. Mike Price and I. Wyoming.

Wyoming. We flew into Denver and drove up to Laramie. The university at Laramie is the world's largest. just archive. For writers, artists, the whole bit, and they have, I don't know how many thousand Frank Scully documents. Mike Price and I got in there Sunday night. We hit it Monday morning early, researched until they threw us out Friday night, Saturday, drove down to Denver and flew back to North Carolina. It's an amazing archive, amazing people that work there. They're like, whatever you need, we're right here. And we copied.

seven or eight hundred documents and brought them back. And one is a letter from Silas Newton to Frank Scully saying, here's what went down with J.P. Khan. Here's what he's telling you, here's reality. And then Scully's letter back to Newton and the attorney's letters to both of them. Wow. And you never read any of that in the debunkers. Of course not.

They're a comment. J.P. Con, actually was a competing writer. Yeah. And he was sour. And he was sour because he got wind of the fact that this was going to come. Somehow there was a week. And actually...

That Scully beat him to it. Scully had beat him to it. Put a little bit of information out there. And he was so angry and embarrassed because he went around... He told the paper that he had the deal. He said, I've got it back. Prematurely. Prematurely.

So his... And he had a book deal for the Aztec case. No, he convinced Scott Newhouse and everybody at the San Francisco Chronicle that I have a story that is so incredible. Right. It's going to knock your socks off. It's about a flying saucer recovery. Yep. And all he had done was said to Scully, I want to buy the rights to it.

And Scully's like, I already got Hoyt Company to publish it. What do I need you for? And there was a little friction there. and now the little friction became huge friction. And then he had to go back to Scott Newhall and say, I don't have the deal. I thought I did. He offered him money, several thousand dollars,

and Scully repeatedly, because he was so well regarded, he didn't need that. And so that's how that, and the motive, that was his motive, and Khan was very, very wealthy. He came from a wealthy family, so wealthy that he never had to work. Yeah, really. He was a very good writer, but he could just do what he wanted it, really. So he also was friends with J. Edgar Hoover, his family.

He was, he had a lot of, a lot of fliant friends. It seems like the call was coming from inside the house a little bit. Yeah. And so when he, that was like, it almost dovetailed, again, well, J.P. Con with Hoover and the military all trying to cover this up. They all worked together. Yeah. It was an amazing, really, I don't know if you could invent it.

It feels like a multi-pronged sort of attack, like a deliberate, slanderous attack on Frank Scully, on anyone. Anyone. Yeah, who was getting close to this stuff. Anyone that touched the Aztec story. Yeah. And that was his way of getting revenge. And he had, again, lots of money and lots of time to do it. Which is, I think, just a beautiful thing about how you guys have.

treated this case because where most people would veer their heads at the second of someone saying we've debunk this. Most people. So many lazy researchers out there that I've encountered. And I hate, you know, I don't want to point the finger at anyone. But there are people out there that when I talk about this case, all they do is send me a link to that page. Right.

And it's so aggravating. And I'm sure you've dealt with it as well. But it's so lazy. You can't cite one page and say, this guy did the work for me. so here's your debunk. No, that guy didn't do, that guy didn't do the work, actually. Yeah. And there's, there's, there's, you know, 70 years of work after that guy that you haven't even looked at.

And so what you guys did was, hey, okay, there's this. We're going to dig into who is Silas Newton, who is Leo Gay-Bauer. And what you've come up with is not only, does not only, like, overshadow all the JP-Con debunk stuff. but it actually sheds a light on these characters that we didn't even, it points you in a direction we didn't even know we were going. Right, right. There's a thick file on these guys. You're like talking about rabbit hole.

Yeah. This is, it's pretty impressive. So, you know, to call them Crooks or whatever, by the way, they didn't go to jail. Right. They got fine. It was a civil case. Civil case, right. About taking a check over a state line.

Had nothing to do. Yeah, it was all it was. So blown out of proportion. Well, they were after Silas because of his relationship with Scully. Yeah. I think that they were afraid to go after Scully, although they tried. Many times they tried. But it was, let's cut the head off of the snake.

Yeah. And that's Silas Newton, who brought the scientist to Scully, or at least Carl Highland. Don't forget. Highland, these guys were all in energy research. So, yes, Silas Newton and Highland. would have known each other. I don't think he would have got to be net worth of 20 million if he didn't know that guy. They were both big players and energy.

The whole thing, when you can write a letter or call Jayhager Hoover and have him write a letter back to you and say, really, they didn't care what the story was. And one of the correspondents, we don't care about that. who's spreading the story. Yeah. Who is spreading the story that we've tried to keep a lid on? Yeah. You were talking about

debunkers, I just got to add this. You got an email. There's a well-known, but he's fading quickly into the dust researcher out in California. I won't say his name because it would actually power him up

and he'd feel good he got mentioned. But he called me one day and said, You have an email address? And I said, yeah, why? You're wasting your time and money on this case. I said, it's not money motivated. It's a hobby motivated. I got the same link. I got the Wikipedia link. He goes, you got to read this.

I'm like, yeah, I've read it like 20 years ago. But anyway, the whole FBI file is an amazing read. Now, they didn't give me everything. I have all the rejection sheets in the book. Let's talk about the FBI file. because most people don't know about this. Right. So, yeah, you requested some files also. Well, yeah, I requested all the Leo Geybauer files again. We already have a ton.

I'll just tell you. You saw them. 300 pages. Massive. So who is Leo Geybauer for those? Leo Gaybauer was a very successful, everything he touched. he was first and foremost a real estate developer. He developed most of Paradise Valley, which ironically...

Arizona. Ironically, there was a UFO crash there. He built really nice high-end homes. He built a whole development, which Mike Price and Frank Thayer and Andy Kisterner and I went there and stood there and looked at these beautiful homes. The only house that is not there was the... wedding gift he gave to his daughter B and her husband, and that subsequently as they outgrew the house, was torn down, and now there's a new house on the lot. But, you know, they make them out

to be a used radio sales, radio parts business. His B's husband was Frank, or was Leo Gaveauer's financial guy. He was like the C-O of the company. Or CFO? C-F. C-F-O. I'm sorry. And, yeah, I had dinner with him. And they're going, where do we start? Yeah, the radio parts guy, have a CFO. Yeah, right, exactly. And he was very successful as a developer.

Pretty much everything he touched. He and his now son-in-law at the time, they had a lot of successful adventures. Just multi-millionaire. Well, he wasn't at the status of Silas Newton. Yeah. But having homes and a real estate, you know, and he wasn't hired up for money or anything. No, no, not at all, not at all.

And his daughter, who has a twin sister, and she lives, I don't want to say where, she told me how they were followed as they walked to school in like elementary school. A black sedan would just inch along with him. That was the FBI. all this intimidation. The biggest thing I think is the fact that we requested to the FBI, we would like, oh, somebody at the FBI that I've been working with said, hey, by the way, you're getting the redacted file.

We have an unredacted file. I'll see if I can get it to you. Well, Suzanne and I wait a certain time, and I call them back, and I go, how do I get it? He goes, you're not going to believe this. It got moved to the National Archives. Wouldn't you know it? Just like that. And what what purpose would anyone have in moving a file? Right. To the National Archive of someone who's a used radio salesman, a developer, you know, a hoaxer, some some low-level thief criminal. Why would his massive 300 page have?

Oh, it's more than that. Suzanne and I have like 293 or 297. And I've seen this thing. It is like this. Yeah, yeah. And this is the color of every page. Pretty much. This is how much you can read.

It's almost funny. It's hilarious. You're reading it, and this is every page. You're turning every page, and this is what you're seeing. So in other words, they black out almost every single. There's like the word, duh. Yeah. We have one.

We have one. It's not about Leo Gaybauer. We have one on Aztec from the Air Force. I waited months and months to get it, kind of fought with him. And we get it back. And I had to show it to Stan Friedman. We were at a conference together. I said, Stan, I finally got the file.

And I hand it to him. He goes, they love the friggin word, the? And he goes like this and shows people. It's all black. They all have a sense of humor a little bit, too. Yeah, of course. But this guy who's a nobody, essentially, who's some low-level criminal, why does he have a 300-page file that is now not only redacted, but move now? That is now moved to the National Archives. Now, what's the significance of the National Archives?

I don't know how important you have to be in life to get put in there. Mike Price, who you hear us talk about, he's deceased. He died during COVID. Mike said to me one day, I'm bored, I'm going to fly to D.C. and go to the National Archives. It's a read-only file. Well, I said, that's not true because they told us it was available. Too much time had passed, so we should get it. Either way, I'm coming back with knowledge. Okay, so Mike having his own private air fleet, flies up and calls me that morning and says, all right, I'm at the National Archives.

I'm signed in. I'm going through all the do's and don'ts, and I'm really excited. I should have something by the end of the day. Well, the end of the day comes and goes, and Mike said, what's up? And they go, who told you it was here? And Mike said, the FBI.

They said, well, there's two locations for the National Archives. There's Suitland, Maryland, across the bridge, and then there's us right here in D.C. And Mike said, and they said, it's at the Suitland-Barreland location. And Mike said, okay, well, can we change my credentials? I'll go over there tomorrow. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's not the way it works.

You have to apply with them and go through this whole process that you and Scott Ramsey went through to get in here. Because we did. I'm trying to give you the Reader's Digest version in the interest of time. And so Mike said, what do you want me to do? I said, well, I know you're a good pilot and you've got all the latest avionics. You ought to just turn around and come home because your weather's going south pretty quick. So Mike flew back to North Carolina. And I have been working, so Mike passed away.

I have been working with Suzanne and trying to get the National Archives that now say it's not a read-only document. We can get it to you. we just don't know if we want to, basically. I mean, they're not saying that in an email, but it's sort of like, yeah. You're playing coin. It could be given to you. And we have had numerous times we were going to make a trip up there to go into the archives.

And numerous times. And all of a sudden, we'll make some progress. Scott's adamant about it, makes progress with the person, develops a rapport. We're on our way, filling out the paperwork, doing all of that. And then all of a sudden, oh, it's changed. The paperwork's change to someone else's there in charge. I don't have that jurisdiction anymore. It is happening and that happened months.

Now we're at years. Yeah. Because then the excuse was, well, it's COVID season. Sure. And we can't let you in. But since COVID we've been going on and through this. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's ridiculous.

And then it was the government shutdown. Right. We just don't have the people here to help you. You're getting the run around. Absolutely. Run around. I think there is a run around. an FBI document that states they're doing a background check on Leo Geybauer.

And it talks about his previous intelligence. And it's more of a question. Yes. More of his previous intelligence background from World War II, basically question mark, do we have the right Leo Geybauer? Because he was involved in something. Something. We don't know what.

Yeah, sometimes classified. And that's what they don't want us to know. Right. So there's something else that Leo Gainbaugh was involved in that may or may not have to do with UFOs, but that definitely has to do with national security. Absolutely. Right. Yeah.

And that's what they're trying to break. One of the things that we really worked in the book to do is take you to, I know this story is very complex. You have been such a good sport about trying to walk through with us, but it's a very complex case. Yeah. And the beauty of it is. is there's a lot of information. Oh, yeah. And documentation. But it takes time and you kind of have to follow through. What we've tried to do in the book is regarding Leo and Silas Newton, Leo Gabauer and Silas Newton, the people that were supposedly, you always see the term hoax associated with,

what we've tried to do is show you the documentation and walk you through proving that it's not true. Oh, they're exonerated, in my opinion. Oh, yeah. But it's easy to say that, but you have to prove it. Yep. And that's really what we've tried to do is walk you through so that you can see the correspondence with J. Edgar Hoover. I mean, you can see the different things

and how J.P. Khan went about trying to discredit this whole thing. And really, by the time you're finished, I'm hoping, that you have a sense of peace of, well, we can take that whole chunk of garbage and throw it out and look at the case now. Yeah. Because that's really J.P. Con, there's a song. It's so unfortunate that it's stuck. It's such.

That's by design. It is by design. But it just goes to show you how the intelligence community works as well. It's like they can just throw something out there. And if it's not true, it doesn't matter. No. It poisons the well. Yeah.

And they did a really good job at poisoning the well in this case. Oh, my gosh. I would bet that there are departments that study this. I mean, really. Yeah, what do we say? What combination of words can be used? They learned so much from Roswell. I mean, really think about it.

And the fact that this was nipped in the butt immediately, like this didn't show up in newspapers this crash. Nothing, right? They had to go shut those down immediately. They had to go to the newspapers. They had to, and that's something, you know, you guys. I'm going to show something. I don't know if we'll end up getting into this, but. you showed me papers and documentation of the specific divisions within the Air Force that were sent out to essentially that were vying for Project Blue Book or Project Grudge at the time that were trying to gain access to all that and being like here's the essentially like the men in black to do list.

Yeah. You go to the radio station, you go to the newspaper. You go to, like, they had a whole list of how to deal with this stuff already. And you guys uncovered that as well, which I thought was pretty interesting. And during World War II, every major newspaper, well, not every newspaper had their own intelligence person. Yeah. To read through. Still now.

Yeah. Well, I'm getting to that. To read through to make sure something going out in the news isn't something classified or top secret. After World War II, where'd those people go? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't like, well, Joe, I got laid off last week.

The war's over. I can quit quiet on you. Yeah, I spoke to someone who was a liaison at a very prominent, prestigious network, television network, that had acquired a very high position. And with that position came the position of liaison to the three-letter agencies, The alphabet,

soon. Right. Interesting. And this person as well, who I won't name, made a lot of UFO documentaries. Sure. Oh, my gosh.

And he was absolutely told, give us, kick up all the information to us, and we'll make you rich and famous. Yeah. And that's what he did, and that's what he became. Mm-hmm.

So there's still absolutely a hand in all that. And I, you know, I wouldn't, limited to only networks nowadays. Oh, no, no, I agree. There's a phrase I want to read, just read from here, just one sentence. And I think it refers jumping back to J.P. Kahn. And over the years that we have been doing this research,

J.P. Khan, again, was the guy that was really out to sacrifice Frank Scully. and there's an Elton John song and it just, every time I hear it, it just touches my heart because I think J.P. Khan, it says in Empty Garden, the song, Empty Garden. Funny how one insect can damage so much grain. And when you said the fact that the impact that J.P. Khan had changed this whole story.

Discredited so much. Oh, yeah. Really, a lot of power for one, It's crazy how much you have to work to rebuild that trust with people, to rebuild that. It's a lifetime of work, clearly. Really? Really? I mean, clearly, yeah.

The other detractor who I want to talk about is Carl Flock. This guy, what a character. You know, if you research Aztec documentary on YouTube, you're going to get a documentary featuring yourself, Scott. among Stan Friedman, among so many other people, I think, in this documentary. But you are next to Carl Flock on this documentary adjacent to him. That may have been one done in 2004. Yeah, could be. But it's on YouTube.

If you Google it, it comes up. And, you know, you have this sort of back and forth of researcher. Debunker. Debunker. Yeah. something really interesting happens with this guy eventually. And I'm going to let you, I'll let you kind of take it from here. But people who know of Carl Flock, do they know his background?

And you have an anecdote that I think people should hear that I think, in my opinion, proves the cover up of this whole thing or proves at least the attempted cover up, or at least part of it. Well, Carl was self-proclaimed expert on the Aztec UFO crash. He lives about two hours from Aztec. Did. He passed away, too. When I was researching my early years of Aztec, I obviously didn't know Carl. But he contacted the library one day because the library was central in Aztec because they were using the Aztec crash as a fundraiser to raise money for.

a new library, which they did build, by the way. It's very beautiful. Carl was annoyed that somebody had opened up the lid on Aztec and called the library, not being Carl flocked the ex-CIA agent, but Carl flocked the neighbor down the road. That's a bit of a revelation, too, for people who don't know. Carl was ex-CIA. For Bush, right? I'd have to go back and pull his record.

I mean, that's an interesting person to work under. Right, yeah. And so here we have Carl never mentioning Aztec, and that I get in there with my group, is before Suzanne and I got married, and the Randy Barneses and, you know, people like that, and we start ruffling up Aztec. All of a sudden, Carl shows up as the world-renowned.

You guys need to talk to me. I can tell you all about it. there's a Wikipedia page you need to read too. And he, we actually let him talk at Aztec two years, I believe. And it was horrible. I mean, we always, being a library, you have to have both sides of the equation. You can't just have a bunch of pro-UFO people. That doesn't work.

The library, but also that was, that's who we are too. Yeah, too. That's the standard you should hold yourself. Yeah, exactly. And so Carl came and he did his, we had Dave Thomas and Carl, the two debunkers on Aztec. And Dave, Dave Thomas did a bunch of magic tricks, not as good as yours. And said, see, folks, this is how a hoax starts. I performed all this magic in front of you and that's all Aztec is.

And then he made the statement that Hart Canyon Road was. even built. It wouldn't even cut in 1948. And there's people kind of in the front road that laughed because they live on Hart Canyon Road. And they know how long it's been there. And they weren't young teenagers. They were older people. And then Carl gets up to do his thing. And it was the same old, same old. They were two con men that brought the story to Frank Scully. And then they got arrested and thrown in. jail for doing a con. Well, okay, nobody got arrested.

Nobody went to jail. It's the same regurgitated crap we hear about Aztec. And I even pulled Carl's side after that and said, if you come back in the future, don't use that one. Do a little better one. Do a little better.

You're a smart guy. And he was very smart. And ironically, if it weren't for Aztec, Carl and I actually became pretty good friends. We love to We had a lot of the same interests. But when it came to Aztec, he was actually brutal. He had a job to do.

Well, he did. He did. And he was good at it. And he was brutal in how he handled people like me toward the end. He was very brutal. He was very devious. And he pulled some underhanded things, which I shared with you. I was asked by a politician to go down to. to Maxwell and check on these alleged Air Force Base radar stations that we found. So we did that. We had been working on that for a number of years. I got back to Charlotte, went over to the Xerox copier, copied them all,

and sent this collection to Santa Fe, New Mexico, where this politician was eagerly waiting for him, I'll say that. Well, a couple days later, I get a phone call. Again, our receptionist came out and says, there's New Mexico State Police on a conference call. They want you on it. Okay, well, what's this all about? Well, anyway, it was the politician and the police department,

the Capitol Police of Santa Fe, and he said, I've got you on speaker because I want them to hear every word out of your mouth. What did you send me this week? I mean, radar base documents from the Air Force. I said, why? He said, somebody broke into my office. They didn't take those documents.

They're sitting right on the left-hand side of my desk, but they took the overnight package out of the trash can. They wanted to see who I'm talking to. Why? Well, apparently, the radar bases have something to do with Aztec, which would make sense because the first one was built in 46. The other two weren't built until... 50, 52.

And they weren't run by the Air Force. Matter of fact, the Air Force had a hell of a time getting me the history on him. I went in and laid the pictures down on the desk and said, I'm not only telling you I saw it, I took photographs of it. And the gentleman at Maxwell looked at it said, that's a radar base. I was pretty smart about that. It turned out, and God bless him, because he really went above him beyond the call of an archive. And he called me one day and said the Atomic Energy Commission built them to protect Los Alamos.

And by 57, the new due line technology, they were done. So 46 to 57 was the oldest in 50 to 57. And then I think 52 they built the third one out at the Continental Divide. So you had Continental Divide, Alvado, and Moriarty. And it was kind of a triangle around Los Alas. Not that you need a triangle. You don't have to triangulate it. But that was mentioned in Scully's book, and a lot of debunkers said, there's no radar bases up there.

Yeah. Because they had been to the Air Force. The Air Force, we don't have any radar bases up there? Well, they didn't. Yeah, it was the atomic energy commission. About 1952-ish, the Atomic Energy Commission gave them to the Air Force. That's right. you run them. Yeah. So it wasn't the Air Forces until 52. So they were correct. They did

have Air Force bases. And certainly not in 48. The Atomic Energy Commission did. And there were actually two, a lot of it was. There was one down by the dam and the hydroelectric plant, which they did tap into some of that power. And then 50-something-ish, they built the one that we can all walk through today. So you have all this, you have all this radar data, this back and forth with this politician. Right. Yeah. And someone thinks that that's really important enough to break into this politician's house and steal.

Not half. It's the office. In the capital. Into the office of the capital. Wild place to break into. Pretty desperate. Well, pretty balsy. Pretty balsy.

They don't take anything except for the envelope. The envelope. Yeah. They take the document with your name and your information, essentially. Right. Okay. So Scott gets home from a trip and his house has been broken into. The house that you were at.

This was before we were together, not long before, but. So he gets home and the house has been broken into. Police report, tobacco. Filled out the police report, had the police come. And the police said, is there anything missing? Now, because, it's a long story, but he was gifted a bunch of Budweiser beer, which he drank at the time, he had numerous cases of Budweiser beer sitting up against next to the refrigerator. He had several hundred dollars laying on the counter.

On the kitchen counter. And they took neither of those. So if they were kids, the beer would have gone. The beer would be gone. The money would be gone. Easy. Yeah. The only thing that was missing in the whole house was in a small, little,

cupboard in the living room was some photos of the crashlight. Of all of Aztec. In sequential order, October 89, all the way up to current. And that was the only thing. Doors were left wide open. That was it. There's a message there. Yeah, of course.

Then they, now back at the Capitol building, They actually have a camera. Surveillance. Surveillance that caught the picture. And who broke in to the Capitol? Uh, Wow. Yeah.

They have it on camera. Steels the envelope to figure out who is communicating with this politician. Yeah. And then goes to your house and takes some more evidence. Well, we don't know that part. Well, the second part we don't know. They took the photos, not the name. Not the negatives. Right. Okay. So just a message. Lazy thief. Sure. Don't get them to process. Just take the rules.

Okay. And so now you're fueled by this. Clearly, you get this, you know, they, I suppose the politicians is the one who informed you on who this was. Yep. What's your reaction to that? Well, angry, betrayed, but not surprised. You know, after I had to stop and think about it. So you have this information now. What are you thinking? You're thinking, this is it.

I'm going to break this case wide open. I'm going to share that there is a CIA spook who is infiltrating, you know, and trying to debunk this case, but who's actually, you know, clearly doing criminal activity. It made me work harder. Yeah. made you work pretty hard. And this is, again, someone who took forever to ever actually go out to the crash site. The new Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid is the most fuel efficient cross trek yet.

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Let's blow this up. Why didn't you come forward with this story? The politician. So what do he say? We don't talk about this. He said you can't run this story. Don't run it. Not once, but twice he told me.

He told you twice. What were your feelings about that? And I think there was some pushback maybe from above. Right. So in your opinion was on official duty. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So you got warded off. You got told. Let this one go. And that's just so unfortunate because had that politician cooperated with you, that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt at least. some agency's involvement in wanting to cover this up. That's another reason I don't think we'll ever have disclosure.

Is the interagency compartmentalization, them not talking to each other. Like the CIA might be fighting itself, right? Oh, absolutely. Air Force might be fighting themselves. Where do you want to start? What other alphabet companies do you want to go to? Sure. The enemy within.

Yeah. And how do you lie to the public to taxpayers for 75 years and say, well, Roswell didn't happen? Aztec was a hoax. Kexburg never happened. Paradise Valley didn't happen. You need a scapegoat. Yeah, absolutely. That's what you need.

Yeah. That's what they need to blame somebody. And right now, there's no one to blame. You'd have to blame a department that no longer exists, that everybody's dead. That's who you blame. They have no wife. They have no children. Exactly.

Yeah. Which isn't the case. I'm sure there's too many hands to pot. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm glad. Thank you for sharing that. I'm glad that you did share that because that for me is a very strong piece of evidence that shows that this is an important case.

Yeah. And people do care about this. If you look at how large the craft was, 200 people total working on. removing it, either from a desk or boots on the ground. This, you know, Roswell was a debris filled. Kind of like an airplane crash scene. You take an airplane when it crashes, you can take it like a pegboard and put it back together and find out where the failure was or where the engine fell off, whatever.

Can't do that with a flying saucer because where's this piece of the puzzle go? Aztec, they got a pretty good piece. I got the whole puzzle. They got the whole puzzle. Less a porthole that had a hole in it. Yeah. Is there another crash that you guys would hold in just as, if not as high, but maybe close as high regard as Aztec, like Kingman or Kexburg?

Kexpert would be the one? Yep. You think there's enough documentation there to prove Kexburg and enough witness testimony? Tony? Yeah. Stan Gordon is an amazing researcher. And I saw Kexburg when I was a kid. I saw it that night. You saw the craft? Yeah. I saw whatever flew over Pittsburgh. Really? Yeah. My godmother and I, Gene Hartman, who just passed a couple years ago, she was taking care of me because my parents had some thing going on that night, probably PTA or probably negotiating to get me back into her. school, you know. Sure. I wasn't a great kid. So Gene and I were standing at the corner of Bigham Street and Virginia Avenue and Pennsylvania. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, just right in the city limits.

And she saw this big, bright light going up and drew it to my attention, said, my God, Scotty, look at that. And we saw it go up and up and up, and then it made that famous turn. And if you take an aerial map today and I said we were standing here and here's where it went and here's where it turned and follow that down that goes right to Kexburgh. Now, I didn't think much of it. I thought Shooting Star, but awfully low. He was a little boy. Yeah, I'm the little kid.

And she is panicking because she thought it was a Nike missile launch. Wow. And Pittsburgh had three or four, maybe five Nike missile bases. We used to play at one when it was shut down in Heidelberg. To me, so what? Well, that meant we had an inbound Soviet problem. There was still Cold War energy. Oh, height of it.

Oh, yeah, height of it. And she was really distraught. She said, oh, I don't like the site. I don't like that. Okay, whatever. Wow. So. So you've got a first-hand connection.

What it actually was we don't really know, sure. But that something did happen, you know. They kept it well. To this day, Suzanne and I did down to Maxwell. And just every couple of years, I'll say, hey, can I have the historical report of the 606 or the 4602? Those are the crash retrieval divisions. Yeah, or the 1,06 out of that Air Force Base,

can I have their historical report? And it's like, no, go away. Yeah. The ones the ones you were told don't really exist. Can I fill out the paperwork? No, just you're not going to get them. Can I get the overview? No. And the recovery groups had an office in Pittsburgh. Yeah. At the greater Pittsburgh airport. You would have had to to be there that quickly, right? Oh, yeah. They were there in like 45 minutes. Yeah, and unless you were in the vicinity, there's no way you're getting there at 45 minutes. No. There's no Air Force nearby. There's no base of anything nearby. That's one of the big mysteries at Kexburgh, though. Oh, it is. That's, like, one of the big debunks, I think, is well. A lot of people will cite that, like, there's no way that the military could have gotten there in that amount of time.

But then, you know, you find out. They got to ask back in a couple hours. Yeah. Yeah, they did. For me, I would have to say, I think Travis Walton, I interviewed him 20-some years ago before he really interviewed with many people. And I had a similar experience. I saw your discussion about him. and I had a very similar experience.

He was very nervous about getting up and speaking. He drove all the way with his son, and you could just see. He was rattled. And I said, you don't have to do this. He was going to speak for the symposium. And I said, what if we just got two chairs, and you and I just sat down and talked,

and we won't go anywhere that you're not ready to go. And it was so powerful to watch him, how he was nervous getting up there. sat down and we just started talking. And the minute he started to think about it, you could see his whole body and face and expression. You could see he was there. It's like he goes into a trance. Exactly.

After he was done with that, he was just fine. And we've been to several conferences and he's spoken since then. And we've spoken to the same ones or visited with him. We actually went to visit him years ago in Snowflake. Yeah. And I found that he now, I think, has come to a place. I think he was so young when that happened and had so little life experience that he had nothing to draw upon. As he matured, I think he was able to do some healing.

That's my opinion. That's what it feels like to me as well. Although I will say this, and this is a big deal to me, I see people. sometimes that are in position of power and I really feel personally that Travis was put in positions by people that came supposedly to help him and they damaged him

made his experience worse well I mean like the Hollywood movie yeah the Hollywood movie but before that some of the even the organizations that came to help him wanted to perpetuate that I you know I did this I did that

rather than let's help him. Sure. That really bothers me. And I think it jaded him a little bit too. And I don't blame him. Yeah, from the community, you know. And it should.

I mean, that's the nature of dealing with experiencers or people in this, in this, you know, a whole topic is there is a fine line, and I'm sure you know this as tremendously sort of respectful researchers, there's that fine line of being. caring, wanting to get a story out, and being exploitative. And it's not always easy. But I think that there are people that have no conscience whatsoever. There definitely are. There definitely are who just churn out, you know, things like this.

The other one, the other two that I really think are very compelling are Betty and Barney Hill. And I want to have a disclaimer. It's a fabulous story in our book. Invertly, we put Vermont instead of New Hampshire. and they were from, it's not my birthday that had happened. I mean, we know this story. And please, we are so sorry about that, but that is a very compelling story.

It is. Again, so interesting. And the third one is Frank Fraschino's work on Flatwood Monster. Amazing research. I don't really know. I don't know what actually happened in the script. I don't know much about it. It's a very interesting story.

And Frank has done some really fabulous research. I mean, he is intense. Really? Yeah. I'll look into it. But I really, it's in the West Virginia area. We actually know some people that actually saw it when they were little. And I don't really know what actually happened, but he's done some great research and something certainly happened.

He was highly praised to the day he died by Frank Stanton Friedman. Yeah. Stan was like this research is incredible. Really? Wow. That's definitely high praise. So those are three that in my mind, a lot of really good ones, but those are three that just, they don't always get all the attention, but they get some, but I mean. And what's one story that you just don't give any credence to?

Just one. I don't want to put you on the spot or put you to that way. No, no, you're not enough. Okay, so instead, let me rephrase this. what's one that you're sort of a lower conviction on? I don't know if I can answer that personally because Aztec gets run through the ringer so bad I'd be a hypocrite. Well, on that, there is the 2017 MJ12 leak. Oh, on Aztec.

That mentions Aztec, so why not that one? Because that one's completely BS. Well, that's a funny story. Can I tell that real quick? Yeah, yeah. I get a phone call. Stanton Friedman and I both have birthdays in July.

So we would always call each other on each other's birthday. And he calls me and, you know, it was the same old thing. Hey, kid, you know, how are you doing? Happy birthday. And right after that, have you seen the new majestic 12 documents?

They mention Aztec. Oh, boy, here we go. I said, no, Stan. He goes, well, I got him right here. I'll make copies and get them off to you Monday. I said, okay. So they show up, and Suzanne and I sit at the dining room table, we're reading through them. And I get halfway through it.

I'm like, oh, geez. Sci-fi story. Yeah, Campfire story. The aisle of name. No, Campfire story. Campfire story. So I call, we get done reading him. I call Bill Steinman.

I said, hey, do you know those new majestic 12 documents that mention ASTEP? Bill's like, oh, here we go again. I said, you want to copy them? So I go to work and make copies. Put him in an envelope and sent him off to Bill. And he and I had a habit of calling each other at night when we were walking our dogs. And some out there walking, I forget which one. And the phone rings, it's Bill.

Hey, read those documents. So what do you think? He said, they're bullshit. Pretty obvious. Especially if you know anything about the Aztec case. And they had taken, and he didn't catch. it until I told him, and then he read it real quick. He's like, yeah, this is crap.

They went and copied and pasted a paragraph out of his book. That I'm mistaken. Which was wrong. It had the wrong river. Yeah. He's talking about the object flew over the Archoletta Ranch near the, what do they call it, Anamis River, and it's the Navajo River. So he made a mistake in his book.

Yeah, kind of like we did with Vermont. That's the paragraph that they cited and put into as an official. An amazing book over 500 pages that's incredibly well researched. And they picked a one paragraph. There was some divine intervention there. I'm sorry. Or maybe deliberate. Well, it could be.

Who knows? Yeah. So, you know, he's laughing. We're walking the dogs. And he's laughing. He said, oh, he didn't even catch that. I said, well, you scanned it. You know, that's good.

There were some other really bad mistakes. Yeah. Mispelling. Mispelling. on other records that were just cut and copied again too. Yeah. And then they took some comments that Suzanne and I made when we spoke at Baltimore and Maryland, I mean, perbatim.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that was over the writings of Estek. Remember that? The ones we were talking about earlier? Yeah, they just copy-pasted. With Friedman. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They copied and pasted that. I try to tune that stuff out. Well, there we go. We successfully debunked something. Yeah. So. And anybody that doesn't, isn't consistent and moving.

I mean, there's such a thing as telling the best that you know to this point. Yeah. And then I have a better understanding today than I did yesterday. Yeah. Here's the correction. But somebody whose story, and we've seen it, changes like the wind remarkably. And you honestly stand there and think, am I losing it? am I losing my mind?

Yeah. I thought they just said this. When I see that, I have great concern because I think it dilutes everybody's work. I think so too. And that's, again, why I'm so thankful that you guys exist because you really are the epitome of research when it comes to this stuff. There aren't very many researchers out there that are cut from your cloth. And I think you guys are just really inspirational. and how to approach this topic,

you've been incredibly open and incredibly focused, driven, but also level-headed through the entire thing. Well, thank you for saying that. And people need to know that, I think, because, you know, again, we spoke about this last night.

UFO researcher sounds like a bit of an oxymoron. You're like, you know, how do you research a UFO if you don't have one? And you've clearly demonstrated how to research a UFO case. and it ain't easy. No. I want to talk about one last thing. Sure.

Before we get going here. The gadget. The gadget. You refer to it as the gadget in your book. Yeah. And I was lucky enough to hold this gadget to see it in person. I hope that's okay that I divulged that. Oh, yeah.

It's going to show up in I think Jesse's work as well. And we were very excited about this, and this is something prior to shooting Jesse. documentary, we were on a lot of phone calls back and forth and a lot of because we didn't know each other. We didn't, you know, and you guys had to feel out, who are we dealing with? You know, after dealing with the amount of detractors and debunkers and all this and hoaxers and whatnot, who are these guys and what are their intentions? So I totally get being, you know, reluctant.

We spent 11 hours on Zoom. Yeah. We did. Yeah. Each time we got off, we could tell it was, we were getting close to. That's right. You know what I mean? But it was a time really well spent.

I think so. And I'm grateful that you and Jesse are the people that you are. And the whole team, it was just an honor. Yeah, and the honor is mine too. And, you know, getting to hang out with those guys, you know, whether it's JP or Arthur or Brian or any of the other crew, it's just so fun hanging out with all these guys and sort of living through, you know, this experience together. I think it was great.

But, yeah, one of the highlights was this little gadget. Now, if I were to describe this to you, I would say it looks like a blue marble. Yeah, like a glass blue, dark blue glass marble. Kind of cobalt colored. Yeah, kind of cobalt color. Yeah, much like a jacket on us. And so where did you find this, first of all, and what came of it? We, we, Randy Barnes and I, again, my cohort in crime on Aztec, I think I mentioned earlier, he's passed too.

This is why this is the final book. Our Aztec group has gone from this to about like that. Well, hopefully it just goes back to this. We hope. I'm not going to let it shrink. Randy and I decided one night over a beer that the Aztec crash. site needed to be mapped. And I don't mean

USGS map. I mean gridded that every inch of that mesa was searched. So I went out and rented to very high-powered metal detectors and high-tech for the time frame. It was 99 or

2000. It was wintertime, so it could have been December January. It wasn't February or March because they had a symposium coming up. And we, you know, you being at the crash site, you can't go south or you'll fall off the face. So I said, I'll take the west side and a little bit north. You take a little bit of the north and a little bit east, which is about equal territory, equal real estate.

So I know, we were probably into it not more than five or ten minutes and he got a hit. And he says, hey, come over here and see if your metal detector picks up, and it was a big hit. what I hit. So I go over and sure enough, I had about the same hit. And as I say in the book, we're such great researchers. We took everything to the crash site that day, except for a digging tool. Not expecting really to find it. Well, I don't know what we were thinking.

We had enough food to feed an army and enough bottled water to feed an army. So we're down on our hands and knees like two puppies that were digging through the silt. And sure enough, you know, about that far down, we find this ball. And that's what was making the metal detector go off. Yeah, but, you know, in theory it shouldn't. It looks like glass. Yeah, right. It looks like it's transparent, translucent.

Yeah. What? Yeah. How is there any metal in this thing? Well, here's the analysis. There actually is. Well, this is the older now. Well, but only two didn't show up.

So we kind of laugh about it. We figured some kid was out there or buried. his toy, had no concept of extraterrestrial or whatever. And maybe still don't to this day. We'll find out. Randy says, here, you take it. You collect all that stuff back in North Carolina. So I took it home and it went into a drawer for many years.

And when we started on this book about a year and a half, two years ago, oh no, three years ago. I took it out and she and I put it in a bank safety deposit box because now we're thinking, let's have it analyzed and see what this marble is. And we drag it out when we're getting to that part of the book, which you can see is pretty far back, and we take it to two places in our town and have it analyzed. and one is a high dollar pawn shop where they test gold coins and silver coins to make sure they're not plated or fake. Sure.

To analyze them. Yeah. And it both times came up, it contains gold, rhodium, eridium, iron, zinc, titanium, and lead. So there's a couple things on there that will hit. And you look at this thing and you're thinking it's 100% made a glass. Right. Because it's almost like it's shiny on the outside with like a metallic coating kind of, wouldn't you say?

Right, yeah. Yeah. It's like a peery marble. Yeah. So you can see not completely through it. But light goes through it. But light goes through it. Yeah.

And then there's times that it almost illuminates. And it kind of changes colors. It's just hard, very hard to figure out what it is. Yeah, it's a very pretty beautiful object. It's beautiful. Clearly not natural. No. No. No.

Um, too round to be... Yeah, and very smooth. Yeah. Very smooth. So we took it and had it x-rayed to see, you know... And there is a core. There's a core. Yeah.

But it's little specks. Yeah. That are in it. As we get deeper in the x-rays... Mm-hmm. It's a hexagonal core. There we go. Yeah.

That's under more power. it looks like a hexagon. And you obviously can't determine what's in that core, but it's what is the best guess of what the concentration of that is in that core. Well, in order to assess that, what we decided to do was have it further analyzed. I see. And we started looking around at different labs and places to take it to. And what we kept coming up with was,

everyone wanted to do some type of invasive, cut it in half or take a chunk out of it, we don't know what it is. And so it really, it would be dangerous to do that one thing. Dangerous, yeah, because you might lose, it might. The value. Yeah, exactly. And this is a one-of, whatever it is. It might be something.

It might not be. It might be a kid's story. So we, again, this took us, oh, my goodness, probably nine, ten months. And before we found someone that said that they could do a, a. series of tests to further look at it and without them being invasive. And so we went to the lab and it was a physics professor that helped us. And he analyzed it and instead of, it ended up having instead of, what were the elements changing?

Rodium and eridium, the machine that we were testing it on, it's full. looking for precious metals, and because it can't understand what that is, it defaults to whatever close element, and that would be rhodium and eridium, which are basically found on meteors. So that would really make a big question work. But we can now rule that out because that was the default on the machine. It was like, I don't know what it is, so here's what it is. Right.

Instead, there's arsenic. Arsenic, a lot of arsenic. Wild. Yeah. Which really, you know, I guess that helps to tell us that it's not extraterrestrial, but why is it at the site and why would you have those elements? Gold arsenic? Gold's still present, though.

Yeah, yeah. So that's your thing. It's like we don't have proof that this isn't extraterrestrial. based on arsenic. No. Because those elements exist outside of the Earth as well. They do. They do.

And that's an important factor that we learned while we were there is. When people say this or that is, oh, this is extraterrestrial and this isn't, every single element is found everywhere. Yeah, it's on the periodic table. Right. It's the amount. And the layering of the atomic structure, the atoms, yeah. And that was a very interesting, I wasn't aware of that, and that was really helpful.

Yeah, like the, you know, class. You know, classic arts parts and the bismuth and the layering of that. Right. You know, that determines that it's something that was man-made that we can't do. I would love to know how you can make what it is I held in my hand out of the elements that are listed there. It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't. And then again, why was it found on a mesa 11 miles out in the middle and over?

And even... Deep down. Even creepier. Why was it found exactly where the bodies were laying? Yeah. I mean, we're talking inches away, you know. He is furthering the tests. Yeah.

And there are some tests that take months to do. So the ones that we could have tested, we have. Yeah. And now. And now we're just waiting for. But. So exciting. Have you ever seen, have you ever seen, is it Men in Black, too?

Remember the cat? Oh, the universe. It was like Orion. Yeah. That's what, as soon as I saw that, my mind shot straight back to that's a good point. I never thought. I was like, what if that's our universe right now?

The one next to us. Yeah, that's right. One thing, though, that I think is important too, though, is it would be very interesting if it was extraterrestrial. Yeah. If it's not, Scott and I have been like this. Yeah. On every piece of information that's come to us, somebody brings us a lead,

it takes us two or three years to fully, you know, check it out. Yeah, vet it. So that's exactly it. So whether it is or isn't, be nice if it was, but if it isn't, that does not change our research. That's right. And really, that's where we have to remain always in here. And again, as you said earlier, whether we prove it is or isn't, it's proving it. That's the fact.

And so if this is a bonus, I mean, this just happens to be, the gadget happens to be one thing out of thousands of hours of research that other people are enjoying with us. We've been through this one lots and lots of times before. Yeah, it just happens to be of a sort of magical quality and a very easy, tangible mystical item, right? Which is very enticing. It is. I'm sure to you. I'm sure to others. but I know how reluctant you were in even wanting to talk about this prior to the book.

And I'm sure you debated even putting it in the book. We did. We did. Because of the attachment that people will have to it if it comes back as normal. Sure. And what that might. Exactly. Oh, these guys, they just found a marble and said it was aliens or whatever.

You know, like that's not what you wanted out there. So even putting this out there, you know, I'm sure, was a big step. But then having it analyzed, and I mean, with the elements that's in it, how can you not include it at this point? Right. No, you're right. It's something different anyway. We know that. Has the physicists you worked with ever seen anything like that?

No. Actually, each one of the physicists and scientists that we spoke to, none of them could give an explanation. None of them. To the composition of what? That's so wild. And one of the labs in North Carolina that we took it to, while the test was, being run and the results were starting to come out, he was looking at it and looking at me and he says, where's this coming from, Roswell? And we had never mentioned anything about it a connection

to possibly being extraterrestrial. And I just laughed. I said, no. So, well, I want to thank you guys for sharing that with me and thank you for letting me hold this little piece. Wash your hands is arson. Yeah, well, I know that now. I know I remember washed my hands before touching it because I didn't want to dirty it. Yeah. Thank you guys for everything. Thanks for,

thanks for being such an amazing duo in this quest for the truth and, you know, working your butts off and, and, I mean, the money you've poured in, the time you've poured in the energy you've poured in. It just really, really, really is appreciated by people like me. And I hope that, you know, myself, Jesse and everybody else who researches this shines a little bit more light on your work and allows more people to get a hold of it to see it to research it for themselves. You guys have done a tremendous job. Well, we hope somebody, yeah, we're not going to do book four. We have, we have nobody alive yet, or still, that we can call on, and I don't want

to regurgitate stuff from 20, 30 years ago. Maybe there's another project out there for us. I don't know. Yeah. Who knows? Highly suggest checking this book out if you're interested in learning about some history in New Mexico. It is a fascinating read. If you want to take it as fiction, take it as fiction. And we'll see you on the other side. We'll see how you feel about it once you're done reading it. I'd like to encourage people that the Aztec town may be having a symposium again.

Kind of got chased off by politicians in years past. That's not fair, but it wasn't a popular subject. We have some new politicians in town. You met one of them. Yeah. And I think they're looking at the success Roswell has and saying, why aren't we part of that? We have people that email us from Germany, Luxembourg, Spain. Hey, we're coming to the States.

We want to go to the Aztec crash site. And we set them up with either somebody that will give them a tour or, okay, go to the information center. Yeah, yeah. where you and I went, they're missing a huge opportunity. Well, plus, there's, it's a good solid case. It is. And there's a beautiful experience to go there. You were there, you know.

And so much to learn. And it's right, you know, in the United States, easy access. Yeah. And, yeah, it's not, it's not this unknown place that you're going to, like the Roswell. Nobody really is sure exactly where it went down. This is like, oh, this is the exact spot. Whatever crash, right? Yeah, that's a rare thing, I think, in all of crash retrieval stuff, like to have the exact location.

I will say this, too, on our website, if you ever are going, do this on a regular basis, and you need the GPS or you need information. It's all there. It's all there on the website. Or just email me. There's a little place you can email me, and I'll just send you out information or let you know. Careful what you wish for. Well, your inbox might be gone on.

up after this one. Most important of all of this is that this information is getting out, above and be all, and that the truth is getting out, and that long after we're gone, that information will be a foundation. And so more people going there is just fine. And if I've got to be up answering emails, then that's kind of how it goes. I do also want to mention, and you brought up a good point, there are a total of six Aztec books. on the market. Steinman's original, or Steinman's only, Scully's book, Chris Evans, which we didn't even talk

about today. It's true. He did a heck of a good book on Aztec. Sadly he died. Mysteriously also. A little mysteriously. Very mysteriously died on his way to our house. You know that, right?

Yeah, and he was going to deliver something to you. Yeah. Um, our three books, the Aztec incident, the Aztec UFO incident, and then the new one that came to Earth in Aztec, New Mexico revealed the recovery of a UFO. Um, all of those books have an amazing amount of good information. I, I think Scully's book is a must. I think they're all a must. Yeah. If people were thinking of going to the crash site, get educated as much as you can. can. There's good information in all the books.

And if you're going and you're not into the topic, you'll enjoy the beauty, won't you? Absolutely beautiful. Just amazing. I have husband and wife teams at e-mails. Yeah, my wife wasn't really into it, but I had to drag her away and put her in the car because this is so amazing. And just take good hiking boots. Yeah, and some water. And water. Boots and water.

Thank you, guys. Thank you. I appreciate you both. Scott, Suzanne, I love you both. Thank you for doing this and coming out here and shouting with me. Thank you. Thank you. Old music.

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