AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - Footage of a REAL Alien Exists! - James Fox - DEBRIEFED ep. 21

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

Filmmaker, documentarian and UFO Researcher, James Fox joins me in the SCIF to discuss the Men in Black, Alien footage, his Pentagon meeting with John Kosloski, future projects and SO MUCH MORE! Follow James Fox: https://x.com/jamescfox Patreon Exclusive Content: https://www.patreon.com/Area52investigations AREA 52 Shop: https://AREA52.SHOP Join The Area52 Discord: https://discord.gg/C7ZB5M3qjv Follow me on IG: https://www.instagram.com/area52investigations/ Call us Toll Free: 8-333-AREA52 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/26PjFc2gsF0jE9CiMvNBVt Itunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/debriefed-with-chris-ramsay/id1724258920 Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvQ_EDuk8w67a2UkCS1ptbA/join LINKS: The Program: https://tv.apple.com/us/movie/the-program/umc.cmc.o1nsjudjqe5lwmr48wdrloo6 The Phenomenon: https://www.amazon.com/Phenomenon-John-Podesta/dp/B08HR6QD3V Moment Of Contact: https://tv.apple.com/us/movie/moment-of-contact/umc.cmc.eq4hi5uneea0v3a7e1sqrq9f Interview with Kirk McConnell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDtCfO6nz4o&t=285s

I heard about real serious visitation of these so-called, you know, men in dark suits. And then I heard about it like a number of other times. I heard about it with the McMinnville, Oregon case. She got a visit. Then I heard about it with Rex Hefflin. He had a visit with these guys in suits. With the 1966 UFO landing at Westall Primary School,

a science teacher named Mr. Dreamwood. And then we found out he had a visit from men in suits. A general, Parvice Jafari. And he told me, he was like, yeah, the next morning. Like, the encounter happened in the middle of the night. The next morning, a couple of men from the United States government. I don't know what agency they're from. They were there.

Oh, my God, here they are again. Let's see. I cover a case in Australia, Africa, South America, Chile, England, Russia, China, Canada, Alaska, across the United States. This is a global phenomenon. Has there ever been a moment where it's just, like, slipped out of your hands? The alien footage. Of Virginia? Yes.

You were that close? We had a hard drive in our hands. You had a hard drive in your hands? See how I can talk about this. I want to talk about this without revealing the detail because he's going back. When I walked up to him, I looked in the eyes, I looked into his soul. I said, I promise you all my life, there was no camera, audio, nothing rolling. This is between you and me right here, right now.

He looks up at Mark Reilly and he goes, it happened. Close the door, and off he went. I'm 99.9% sure that I look directly into the eyes of a gentleman who drove an alien around. I actually have a letter from Spielberg that was written to Larry King about me and my movie. Whoa. Yeah. I don't talk about this that often. You recently got invited into a skiff.

Yeah. And I can say, is that the Pentagon? This is as much as I, because I've been asked not to reveal exactly why I went there because it could interfere with the current investigations that are happening. But we're both going after the same footage. Oh, yeah, one more thing. It was really cool. Okay. He said, you know, a little factoid, something you might want to, you know, no.

I was like, what's that? He goes, get out of. Swear it on my life. And there's probably, I mean, some framework outside of the government that really knows what's going on. Like it's... I'm told 20 people. 20. 20.

Wow. Globally. Globally 20 people. 20. Wow. And that came from someone I really trust. Who's the first guest? Mr. Witness, you would get in front of the camera if they were allowed to break their NDA.

Yeah, I would agree with that, too. I'd love to get him the skiff. I have to be careful what I say here, but for reasons that I won't discuss, I believe he's a first-hand witness. Wow. Wow. Do you seen things that if you talk about you, go to jail? No, but I could talk about things other people might go to jail. Silver, yeah, it's like there's no markings or windows on it. I thought about pulling on my phone to take a picture or record. Skip a few weeks ago. I know.

The day after we met. I know. We'll get into that. Yeah. It's pretty cool. This is your second time in a skip. My second time in a skip, yeah. Which one was more stressful?

This one's more welcoming because it's got my name. That's right. I like that. Yeah. I feel like, you know. We like to take care of the guests that come in the skiff here. not to scare them to death. Caffe,

nice hats. Nice merch. Yeah. Appreciate the shout out. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm, so there's two reasons why I'm wearing this hat. One is I love it. Two is my hair is in second place today.

Yeah, same. This hat's in first place. So I figured, you know what? Love the hat. Nobody's paying me to wear this hat. I actually really liked this hat and I'll be wearing a lot more. Great. I appreciate that.

Yeah. Welcome James Fox to the skiff. Thanks for having me. Yeah, man. It's a great pleasure of mine to have you here. And you're one of the first people to grace this studio among, you know, among only a few people that I've ever been here. So I'm really, I'm really happy that we're actually ringing,

kind of ringing in the new year now. This is December 31st. Last day of 2024. What a way to kick off. It's a few hours to go. Yeah. I'm, yeah, I'm extremely, extremely happy to have you here. You know, obviously you're coming off.

the amazing launch of the program and you've been doing the rounds. Yes. You know, you got Rogan. You did Rogan, you know, and then did the skiff, which the correct order. I think Rogan was my last, was Rogan my last interview? I think it was. Oh, you did Duncan. Oh, you did Duncan before Rogan.

Yeah, I did Shane and then I did Duncan. And then I did Rogan. I was like, I really, I might have had a couple of things after. Well, maybe not actually. maybe maybe one or two things I can't remember but basically this is my first real sit down since rogan yeah and your first um like technical we might get we might get a little technical here because you know the the ears and eyes that are watching this podcast aren't necessarily just newcomers these are a lot of people that are in the community that have been following your work for a long time so you're

a familiar face to them the program was incredible it was such a much needed how do you say like a it was a culmination of so many different things. I mean, coming off the phenomenon as well, and then moment of contact. And the program, I felt like was we needed something to really encompass the entirety of what's going on currently. Like, it is a time piece. It is something that will be forever cemented in time as, hey, this is what's happening now. This will be remembered. And I thought that was such an important message that you conveyed through that, through the, through the editing, which we talked about yesterday. I mean, you do that yourself, which still blows my mind that you even have time for that. Oh, my gosh. But hats off to you as a creator. Thank you.

Yeah. Phenomenal job. What are your feelings now that the program is out and it's being viewed? How do you feel internally with that? Thank you for that intro. That was lovely. I never had, such a deep sense of urgency with any film I've made in the past as I've done with the program because things are happening so quickly. You know, we've had three congressional hearings in the last three years. I mean, that's remarkable for people out there that things aren't happening quick enough. So I had this real sense of urgency to get the film out because, you know, it's going to be yesterday's news. But also, the mainstream media and people that have not been paying that much of attention need to really know.

Like, I'm not trying to force anything down anyone's throats, but it's like, hey, there's something going on here. I think people should be paying attention. This is kind of a big deal. Yep. And it's lovely to see the bipartisan workmanship, right? Both Democrats and Republicans working on this issue together. And quite honestly, we're living in a time, which is unprecedented time of a coordinated

push for transparency on what, in my opinion, will turn out to be the biggest story of modern modern history. And you sure will be on the forefront of that, by the way, which I think is very awesome. We're all in it together. We are in it together, that's for sure. This, by the way, is funny. I just pulled this out of my shelf yesterday. I thought it was interesting. You were born 68? Yes. This was 67. Oh, wow. This is a flying saucers and UFO reports. So you're saying that this right here is older than me. That is correct. That's impossible. What's interesting in that. That could be framed. Yeah. That is so cool. And what's interesting is they even speculate about the moon landing in that because it happens two years later.

So they're like, what are we going to find on the moon? And it's a really interesting thing. But that's a gift for you. I wanted you to have that. Oh, my gosh. Thank you. There's some really interesting cases in there, too. As you know, there's so many cases that, for lack of a better expression, fly under the radar.

Yeah. There are thousands of cases out there. And if you go through, obviously, you know, National Archive and all these other, you know, or old. books like the Lorenzans or we're finding out about cases. You could read a new case every day for 10 years. God, there's a young hynick. This is really cool. You know, I got to interview Kenneth Arnold's daughter, Kim Arnold. She's in the phenomenon. Yeah. And I got to spend a couple of days with her and her daughter. And it was amazing to get the backstory because, you know, you have that phenomenal case in June of 1947, which pretty much was the beginning of the modern UFO wave.

And that's where they coined the phrase flying saucer, because he described it as a saucer skipping over water, and one of the reporters was like flying saucer. And he was catapulted into the headlines all across the nation, correct, all across the world. I mean, the Kenneth Arnold thing was huge, right? And she, a little backstory, she's like, oh yeah, my father was really, really famous. He was recognizable walking on the streets. Like everybody knew Kenneth Arnold. And he was going to go on a, just little side story, but he was going to go on like a tour. He wrote a book and he was going to go like do all these conferences. And he got a visit. And I was like, he got a visit, really? She goes, oh, yeah, he got a visit from men in suits came in and they,

they made it very clear. He was not going to be doing that. No way. He got spooked. He got majorly spooked. She said, really, he, yeah, that was my first, experience hearing about the so-called men-in-suits. I hate to use the word men-in-black because it's got so much baggage. Disney attached to it. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I call it men in dark suits, you know. Fair enough.

You know, but it was like that really kind of started in 1947, and I report on it even recently in the program. But in any case, sort of as a side. You think that was Blue Book? No, that was before Blue Book. No, it was. Way prior to Blue Book. It was before, I think, anything really started because you had Project Signed,

which started at some point in 47 or 404. then you had Project Grudge. So what was that? I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Wasn't a could. But he was going to go on tour and they came and visited him and they threatened him according

to her. And this is what she told me. It was her dad. Wow. Like they threatened him. Like you, this is a big, big desert out here or something like that. You know, a big, big wilderness area. That's what she said.

And I believe she even said that on camera, I should probably go digging for that and release it out in the public. But that's not the first time you've encountered that. type of spooky behavior. No, but that was the earliest. That was the earliest. 47. Since then, you've encountered quite a few stories of people being told to, you know,

keep their mouth shut. Has that ever come across your plate? So I probably heard about these, these, these intimidators. They, they, they, they, they, they, they, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, intimidating and they come and if there's evidence they'll take the evidence it will try to take the evidence uh they try to get the the witnesses terrified to not talk and i'd heard about these since i probably the first time when i was investigating the phoenix lights case in the 90s and i did a couple of films covered a couple films on that whole thing i heard about the first you know

visitation uh real serious visitation of these so-called you know men in dark suits And then I heard about it like a number of other times. I heard about it with 1950, with the McMinnville, Oregon case that she got a visit. It was Paul and Evelyn Trent. And Evelyn had talked about her husband was out of the town and this guy showed up and rummaged through her from some unknown government agency. And that was 1950. Then I heard about it with Rex Heflin from, I think, San

He had a visit with these guys in suits. And I ignored that one, didn't report on it, didn't report on the 51, didn't report on the one from the Phoenix Lights case. And then I heard a number of other cases in the United States that I heard about some cases in Europe, didn't report on it. Always American? Yeah, always. Yeah, there's an unknown government agency in the U.S. yeah, that has the ability to reach anywhere. Like I even interviewed a general Parvice Jafari

from the 1970s UFO incident over Tehran Iran. It's a fascinating case. And he told me, he was like, yeah, the next morning, like the encounter happened in the middle of the night. The next morning, a couple of men from the United States government, I don't know what agency they were from. They were there poking around, asking questions. I was like, really, and I didn't report on that.

but then I was in I was in Brazil probably on and off for the last 12, 14 years but I was in Brazil and it was probably 2013, maybe 2014, and I was interviewing the mother of two really important witnesses

that came according to them within 10 feet of a live creature in broad daylight and the mother talked about these men in suits that showed up her house very intimidating, very scary, and very just scary and intimidating.

And they tried to persuade her to get her daughters to lie, and they didn't see what they said. They saw it. Money as well. They offered a briefcase full of money. And that was it. I was like, okay, these guys exist. I've had enough hearing these stories.

I'm going all in. I'm going to report on it. And I did. That put you over the edge. That put me over the edge. Wow. Yeah. Finally, after all those years.

You're like enough of these guys. Well, I knew it was a slippery slope, but I knew, like, reporting, like, if you look at the history of my investigations of my filmmaking, I had heard about Close Count of the Third Kind. Of course, I mentioned the Rawlswell incident, one of my first films, but in terms of, like, an alleged close encounter of the third kind

when you've got witnesses reporting entities, beings, you know, creatures, whatever, connected to the craft, that to me was a slippery slope, and I just avoided it for over 20 years, probably 25 years, I don't know. And it was same with the MIB Because I just thought like A, I can't prove it

It just sounds so out there Yeah It just sounds kind of crazy It sounds cliche almost Sounds cliche, exactly And so And so I finally said I all the hell with it

And then actually I reported on A lesser version In the phenomenon With the 1966 UFO landing At Westall Primary School Yeah Shane is is very grateful for all the work he's done in that case.

But that's when we got a hold of this science teacher named Mr. Greenwood. And he went silent for 50 years. In fact, when I arrived in Australia, people, even like the long-term UFO researchers, like, don't even bother, he'll never come forward. Wow. And then so we finally, and then we found out he had a visit from men in suits and they scared it. It was an Air Force.

Yeah, he wasn't sure. Like two were in uniform. One was not in uniform. But they basically intimidated him and scared the bejeeze out of him. you silenced him for 50 years. Imagine. Yeah. So anyway, but enough men in black.

Well, it is interesting that they have this sort of army presence globally. That is very interesting in that it's always, it always seems to be American. Yeah. You know, because I had this discussion with some friends and we were actually on the Discord and we were talking about, is the men and black thing just solely a U.S. thing? Because you hear about a lot of these cases and people are like, why is it always the U.S.? Why is it always the U.S.?

Well, they kind of have agency over everything that revolves around crash. Everything. They show up everywhere. They showed up in Virginia. You know, they're retrieving these crafts in Italy. They're retrieving, you know, like all this around the world. Why wouldn't they also have feet on the ground? And then Calvin as well.

Yeah, it was amazing. That was a last-minute development in the program because, I'm quite honestly, I'd heard about the 1990 Calvin UFO case from Nick Pope years ago. Right. well over 20 years ago because I was like, oh, every time we'd be having a beer together, I'd be like, Nick, come on, man, what's the best case here? And hands down, he would just like, go to these two guys hiking in Scotland. He never used the word Calvin.

I don't believe he did when he told me. But he said these guys were hiking in Calvin, broad daylight, five or six prints of its diamond-shaped, like disc, diamond-shaped craft with military. I was like, whoa, you saw that picture. He goes, yeah, man, we added a poster on the wall. Also, I like mildly chased after that case because I kept saying to Nick, who is your predecessor? Like, what about people haven't retired? They wouldn't have thrown that picture away.

He goes, well, at some point, the poster was no longer on the wall at the MOD. I'm not sure. I said, well, they didn't throw it away. I can assure you that did not get thrown away. Somebody's got to have it. And I was pestering him for, you know, for a long time. And then we cover that case, thank God to David Clark, because David Clark was going through some redacted documents that were released through FOIA, I don't know what the British equivalent would be.

And he saw this thing that said, so-and-so, the former REF press officer blacked out. You know, in 1990. He's like, you know, who was the rest officer in 1990? Craig Lindsay contacts him. And he managed to keep one of those prints. But so thanks to David Clark, we had a print. Yep. we had the only military or yeah i guess he would be military world air force press officer

Craig lindsay who the only known person to have interviewed the witnesses so we had him come on camera we had the print we had nick pope at the former ufo desk at the m od talk about the case the only thing we were missing was like what about the witnesses what about the people that took the photograph where are they and at the last minute this guy came forward richard grieves who worked with them in the kitchen. The chaffer, yeah, the kitchen guy. And that's when it was like, that's when he was like, he started talking about these men that showed up in suits. I was like, oh, my God, here they are again. Yeah. So I was talking about that. And I was like, they had a chauffeur, which I thought was interesting. The chauffeur never got out of the car. He stayed in the car. And the

other guys stood in the rain as if it didn't bother them. Hissing rain. He said, it was bizarre. Hissing rain sat out there. But I said, oh, that's what they told you? He goes, no, mate, I was there when they rolled up. So you're a witness to that. Yes. And I love the way he describes it because he's like, I swear I'm like, greet, greet, greet, greet, Grit, great, grandchildren.

Yes. Grandchildren, yes. So funny. I know. That was almost harder for me to decipher than the Portuguese in the other documentary. So funny. Pick Scottish accent. So one little side note that I'll share here is that am I allowed to use

like expletives yes yeah go for it so uh richard grieves you know he'd never really given a like a like i would say on camera or like he done he done one written interview so written only so no voice you know they took one photograph of him but he'd never really given a real interview like what he did with us and uh he kept putting it off and i was i was approaching the end of production i mean the film was a rap and i was like just putting the finishing touches on and i kept contacting him because he agreed to do it through Richard Clark. Excuse me, David Clark. And he kept putting it off and then he just vanished.

And I contacted David Clark and I was like, God, Richard Greaves his testimony. It's going to be so important. Like, you know, did I pester him? Did I upset him? Maybe I pushed him too much. Like David was like, no, man, it took me two years to get a written out of him. So that's kind of his nature, you know. And so one night he finally calls and he'd had a couple of pints and he was like,

I'm ready. He was obviously clearly nervous from the whole. experience, I'm ready. Well, he uses a lot of expletives. And it was a brilliant interview. I remember it was Lance Mungia. It was Donnie in the room. It was my sister, myself. And I think we had one other person. I'm trying to remember in the headroom that night. And he calls and we get the whole thing. We just capture it on camera. And we're going through the interview. And he's like, he's like, he's like, they fucking, why is a fucking ghost? And I made fucking poached eggs. They made DOS, you know, and he's like, so at the end of the interview, I call my buddy Jim Martin,

who I'm working with on the film, and I said, Jim, man, this guy is a really good interview, but he kind of says fuck a lot. He goes, and Jim's like, okay, well, how many times does he say it? I was like, ooh, a lot. He's like, well, a couple times? I was like, no, more than a couple, a lot. How many fucks can we include in the movie? He goes, God, I would say a couple of fucks.

I would say two, maybe three. I was like, in the whole movie, he goes, yeah, anything more than that. And yeah. So he ate up your entire fuck budget for the program. It was so funny. So funny. So I went into the sound engineer, this guy at Juniper Post. He's great at Ben Zerai.

And Ben's like, well, what's going on? I was like, well, you might have to beep, you know, because I'm only really allowed just a couple of fucks. You know, and this guy is, you know, he's very passionate, and he's obviously been sitting on the story for a long time. And Ben's like, well, how many fucks can, you know, are okay? Yeah. It was like, I can believe we're having this conversation, right? It's like, well, I think three, maybe two, three, four at the most. He's like, I'll write a number down and slide it towards you.

What do you think? He's like, well, okay, well, I'll just beep them out. And so he starts beeping them out. And then we listen to it. We're like, oh, man, that doesn't sound like. You know what? Let me get in there to do some microscopic surgery. I think I can just get a couple of.

those fucks out. So we'll only have a couple. So I said it once during the interview and then he said it a couple times. But it was really funny. We're having this very serious conversation about like, how many fucks? How many fucks can we get away with in a movie? I think three was the magic number. Meanwhile, this guy's like, yeah, the men in black showed up. It's a perfect situation to use the F word, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. He was out there were fucking spooks. Yeah. Yeah, he said that. Yes. You know, um... Very passionate. So, I mean, I've got a few few questions here, but it does bring me to one question is, because you touched on it a little bit, but let's say you're in a situation and a witness is sitting in front of you, what do you do

to gain their trust to make them open up? Like, what is that like? What is that exchange like? Because I know a lot of times, a lot of these people, like, as we mentioned, are scared, are threatened. So what is your sort of go-to tactic to get them to open up? Is it just time or is it something else. Like, where do you go for that? A lot of people think that, and I read, I try not to read the comments. George and Ab always tells me, don't read the comments. And sometimes I do. And it's very nice when you get people, you know, very supportive of what you do. And some people are like, oh, you know, people are just coming forward because they want to be in the limelight. And I'm like, you know, the better the witness, the more difficult it is to get these people to come forward.

Like, I cannot emphasize, I cannot overstate that. I remember this guy, James Rigney, in Australia, goes, he's like, how do you do it? How do you get these guys to come forward? I said, James, and I was serious. I said, James, I look into their soul. Wow. I look into their soul. He goes, you look into their soul.

I said, yeah, I do. And I say, this story is so much more important than any one of us. This is something that could affect the lives of every man, woman, and child on this planet. And we have to remember that. And I look into their soul. And that's what I do. And I remind them of that. Like, this is so much bigger.

And it's really hard. And, you know, I've had people tell me, I don't care all the money in the world, I'm never coming forward. And then to spend a little time with them. And magic can happen. Beautiful. Yeah.

I'm glad you didn't, I'm glad you weren't like, well, I don't have to pay them off. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, James Wrigney, is the only other person that ever asked me that question. It's a great question. Yeah, I mean, it's just a,

fascinating because being someone who's getting into this and investigating a lot of this stuff as well, I find that that is like the murkiest territory because facts exist, data is out there, footage, photos, but testimony is the rare stuff that we found. Like there are, I mean, obviously, you know, seeing, seeing an HD video is something else. But the next best thing is a human interaction, in my opinion, because I think that conveys much more than what you can read on a transcript. It conveys emotion. it conveys real fear or real surprise. And these are things that you can't fake. And you can put someone on a lie detector all you want or you can do all the other extra things. But this, for me,

is the most convincing part of it. Kurt McConnell stepped down from Senate Armed Service Committee. He spent 37 years top secret clearance. He talks about what he did from 2017 to 2024 in the program. and there was one little clip that he gave that I actually, I like to take the credits and I like to spice the credits up and I always put these little Easter eggs in the credits because when I'm editing, I like color coat everything and I'll have like purple, pink, gold, blue, and then once I color code everything and organize them

and then in the timeline I'll put the video signal, I'll stack it. and stuff that's right at the top is like, it's got to go in the movie. It's purple, it's got to go to the top or it's gold, it's golden. If it's blue, it's generally B-roll and then I stack it.

And sometimes I just don't find a place for it in the movie. It just doesn't fit, right? But I was like, this is so good. So I always like take all those little gems. I call them jams, golden moments. And I put them off to the end of the timeline and then I stack them all up there and I see one and I put them all in the same spot.

And then at the end of the movie, I go to those little jams and I put them in and I sprinkle the, you know, with good music, the, the, the, the, the, uh, credits. And then I'll show another GM. And Kirk McConnell makes a really good point. He says, you know, we put people, we sentence people to death based on eyewitness testimony. Wow.

But that same logic doesn't apply to the phenomenon, right? Wow. And I thought, what a really good, what a really good point. He's totally right. Like, eyewitness testimony is irrelevant. when it comes to the phenomenon just because we can't explain it. It doesn't mean it didn't happen. That's right.

So, yeah, it's a good point. Yeah. Was there ever a whistleblower you came across that you didn't believe? Not a whistleblower per se, but maybe someone who came forward. Yeah, I'd rather not use that individual's name. But would you say yes? There was. Yes, yes.

How do you handle that situation where you just let them speak and then be like, I'm going to cut this? Like, what's that like for you? Or is that like heartbreaking? I remember I got contacted. There was this one individual, and this individual, this individual, will remain nameless, but it was to do with the Bentwater's December 1980 UFO incursion over the joint U.S. British Air Base, the landing. And there was one particular individual that I just found him sketchy, and we'd already

interviewed him. And it was good for the movie out of the blue. And I got into an argument with my co-producer, but I was ultimately the director, and I got to override, even though these guys were 10 years my senior, I was like, no, no, no, no. And I was like, why? And because I just didn't get the vibe, man. I just, I don't know. And, you know, I struggled with that, too.

It was a gut thing. Yeah, it was his mannerisms. It was the way he conducted himself in the interview. His eye contact just didn't quite align with me. I really had an issue. Some of the claims were inconsistent with the other witnesses. And I just, I don't know, man. It seemed like, I don't know.

I kind of got the impression that he believed what he was saying. But I don't know. It just, you were buying it. I wasn't, yeah. And so I remember I got this argument with my buddy Tim Coleman over it. He forgave me in the end. And then I had some people contact me later on and we're like, oh, I can't believe you, you know, you didn't include that.

And then like 10 years after that, they were like, ooh, good thing you didn't include that. It turned out to be kind of right. And sometimes people are maybe exposed to disinformation unknowingly, you know. Some, you know, I mean, one of the things that Deputy Base Commander Colonel Charles Holt had talked about with the Benwater's case in 19. was that this, again, I think it was a plane that came in from Germany and it was some U.S. unknown government agency that stepped in and kind of took over and sanitized the whole case and subjected according to the base commander, deputy base commander, Charles Halt,

a lot of the witnesses to sodium pentothal and like tweak them out and God knows whatever they else did in, you know, interrogation or... Wow, some M.K. Ultra stuff. Weird shit. And so maybe, you know, maybe other memories were in plant. Who knows? Right. I mean, what kind of games they're playing, you know. And I think that could happen to witnesses and have a legitimate, you know, experience.

And then get manipulated post experience and that kind of just throws everyone off. Because it's like everybody's talking about a landing and then all of a sudden, you know, one individual is talking about contact with all these other people were there. It doesn't align with everybody else's memory. Something's off. Yeah. And sometimes I think that's a deliberate effort. to obfuscate the whole thing. Yeah.

Right? It's like the Holloman landing case, I'm convinced. And I don't, well, I think it was like probably 1964 is my guess on the date. I could be wrong, but I think it's 1964. And I was investigating in a case, a landing case in Socorra, New Mexico that also occurred in 1964. And Socorro was very close to Holloman, White Sands. And I'm investigating that case and I was reading some articles by Coral Lorenzen.

And I was led me to a documentary. past, UFOs past president future with Alan Sandler and Bob Emineger. And I was like, oh man, that case really happened. And then I came across some information like there was a meeting with the president and all this other stuff.

And I was like, boy, that suddenly goes sideways. Not to say that it did or didn't happen. I don't know. I certainly started to believe that the landing case happened. And all of a sudden they're talking about meeting with presidents and all this other stuff. And I kind of threw me off the case. And I was thinking to myself,

was that an intentional thing to throw people off? Like you take an incident that most likely happened and then you'd throw a bunch of crazy unsubstantiated stuff in there to throw people off, who knows. But unfortunately, a guy named Paul Shardle who worked at Norton Air Force Base. Security. Yeah, that was, excuse me, early 60s.

So what happened was they were doing that, they were shooting that documentary UFO's past, president of future, and they were having an unprecedented level of access granted to them by the government. It was quite remarkable. They were going on all these military bases and go watch the movie. It's incredible.

Colonel Coleman at the time was either press leozoam for the Pentagon or press officer, but in any case, and he basically called the various bases, hey, there's a film crew coming, Alan Sanders, this guy Bob Eminager, give him full, you know, access and show them around the base, doing an interview about UFOs. And so,

Paul Shardle got that message, like, hey, these guys are showing up, and they did at Norton Air Force Base, and Paul had just processed film footage of a landing of a disc at Holman Air Force Base. And Paul showed it. Unfortunately, Eminator wasn't filming that day at the base, but Alan was there. So Paul pulls Alan into the screening room and shows him this footage of a landing. And Paul Charles convinced it's a legit, it's a legit landing. And so I'm investigating this whole thing, and I'm talking to Eminegger about it. And then it's revealed that Alan was shown this footage.

And I have this thing, and I've talked about this before, and I did this with firing this guy, Travis Walton. I remember the first time I met him, I will sometimes close my eyes and I'll get their words to create the imagery in my head. And so it's like I'm almost experiencing it through their eyes. So I'll close my eyes and let the words create the imagery. So I'm watching like a film strip as opposed to like listening to words, do you know? So I did that with Alan and I said, okay, Alan and I guessed them every possible detail you could ever imagine because I wanted to see that footage as best I possibly could. So I was like, let me get this straight.

Alan, you're telling me that you saw the footage of the landing at Holman. Yes. how did you see it? He's like, well, Paul Sharnell pulled it out and showed it to me. I was like, why didn't Eminegger see it? He wasn't with me that day. Okay. So then what happened?

He goes, well, he said it was like three discs at a high altitude, maybe 9,000 feet. And they were escorted by military jets. I don't know if he said one jet or multiple jets. I don't know. But the three discs, I know for sure. I remember that for sure. Three discs coming in and it's late afternoon. is the early morning late afternoon.

I think it was late afternoon. Three discs coming in at high altitude. They get over the base, two of them peel away, and then the third one in the middle oscillates down, and he goes, Alan goes, yeah, it was like it was in trouble or something. It wasn't flying that one. I'm thinking to myself, that's how they fly when they're going slow. They do this, like a leaf kind of falling.

He said the disc came down, wobbling like it was in trouble, and he goes, James, it landed. And I said, okay, was it a tripod? Would, you know, yes, he goes, I think the camera was on a tripod because it wasn't handheld. It looked like they were anticipating something going down. Or maybe they were filming some other exercises. They were ready. But he goes, yeah, it was, it was locked.

It seemed like they knew this was happening. Or they were filming something else. I can't remember. I wish I could remember that detail, and I should remember that detail, but I don't. But any jets escorting and it would seem that way. It seems a little too perfect. Dad, I don't know for sure. I wish I could.

Anyway, so the day. comes down and he goes, James, and I said, well, did it have a tripod landing? Did it have pods? Like, what did it land? He goes, you know, like James, I don't remember, but it was firmly sitting on the ground. And this is the part I remember really well. He goes, James is like in a sci-fi movie. There were no seams. Like this door just opens up and drops to the ground and there's stairs. And two beans or, you know, come out and they flank either side of the staircase. And then the third one comes out and he said it had like um and and alan was convinced that this was a real flying saucer with real technology not a special effect but that they took a real flying saucer and dressed people

up like aliens as a staged event which i don't believe that but whatever it's a side note and alan goes yeah just like in the sci-fi movie this thing opens up there no like you couldn't see a door there and it just opens and drops staircase two guys get out they flanked they flank the staircase and then a third gentleman gets out and he said he had like a like a tight-fitting suit on he had a big nose tiny mouth not much of a chin big eyes with vertical slits and then he had this like head gear almost like Egyptian head gear and then he had a and this is what Alan told me he had like some kind of device that he assumed was a was supposed to be a translator device a communication device didn't know for sure and he was met by people in uniform, dressed, you know, military officers in uniform. I was like, what happened then? He goes, well, they met this one individual. And he went over to a Jeep, got in the Jeep, and off they drove.

And then the film footage ends. I said the film footage ends with the disc just sitting there on the ground. He's like, yeah. So I find this out. And, I mean, quite honestly, I was like, holy shit. Because I was starting to believe that that case had happened because I was, I investigated the Socorro landing case that happened in April 24, 1964. And with a police officer named Lana Zamora,

and I was really sticking my teeth into that case over a five-year period. Now, Holam insists a stone's throw from, from Socorro, right, as the crow flies. Well, I believed, I absolutely believed in the landing and the close encounter of the third kind in Socorro, which is one of the most well-documented close encounters of third kind in U.S. history. Why not have happened something similar at the best? base. Why not? You know, I have to be open to that. So I'm sitting there going, wow. So then

I'm talking to Eminegger by us. I'm like, Eminager. Well, so I said, well, Alan, why didn't you ever tell Eminager? And I actually have video of a phone call that I made. I have it somewhere I should dig it up where I called. I was, I was with Alan and I called Eminager or I was with Eminager and I called Alan because I was like, why is it that you didn't, tell the partner that you were doing the documentary with back in 1972 that you were shown the footage by Paul Shardle. He's like, well, some men in suits showed up. Either later that day or first thing the next morning, took the footage from Paul Shardle, took it away, gone, and like, don't ever talk about this kind of thing. And so Alan didn't tell his own partner that he'd seen it

until years later. But I have him on camera. So then I was talking to Emineger about it. And I said, well, Alan thinks it was a real flying saucer, so you had that technology in 1972, but there was a staged event with people looking like aliens, and Eminegger's like, bullshit, no. I said, why do you feel so adamant about that? He goes, because I knew Paul Shardle. I actually talked to Paul Shardle about it.

I talked to the guy that processed the film budget in an Air Force base. And he goes, in fact, and he dug it up, he did a search for Paul Shardle and Robert Eminegger on some TV show in the either late 70s or early 80s, and he died in a car crash, Paul Shardle with his wife.

A head-on car collision, they both died. But before that happened, he gave an interview, and he talked about why he believed that was a legitimate UFO landing that was captured on film footage. In fact, I've talked to people about it within the government recently. Like, you should go after that footage. I think it exists. In fact, I can put you in touch with the guy who's seen it. That's the Holy Grail.

That's the Holy Grail. That's the one. That answers another question. Like, what's the thing? And that's it. That's got to be it. Well, in terms of multi-angles, like, I mean... Yeah, in terms of a case that happened on a military base, boy, that's pretty damn good.

It's pretty damn good, especially considering that, you know, the cameras were in focus enough and had the quality enough to notice that the seam appeared on the craft. And that's a big detail for me, because when filming something like that, with these old cameras, you'd expect fuzzy, grainy. But if you can tell from that footage that the seam opened, that means you can probably see the expression on those beings face. Like, that's a heck of a claim. Yeah. I know it's a remarkable case. But, you know, Varginia is also, because it's more recent in 96. That does have something to do with people's ability to believe in the story as well, right?

That holds some importance. Yeah, it's a preponderance of eyewitness testimony. I mean, it pretty much, I mean, if you go to the town of Virginia, Brazil, which about four hours north of South Palo, uh, chances are if you go down to the main square and you start to the town of Virginia, I mean, it's about four hours north of South Palo, uh, chances are if you go down to the main square and you start talking about it, they'll either have, you know, especially if they're older, first-hand knowledge, or like, oh, my cousin, my brother, my mom, you know. That was actually a question for later coming up in the Discord by Nelson. He wanted to know. He was like, he loved moment of contact. And Nelson, he's a great friend. He's the memory

champion I told you about. But he was, he said, you know, would James be willing to elaborate a little bit on those interactions? Because he found that, like many of us, so fascinating, that at the very beginning, it kind of caught you off guard how forthcoming just the local citizens were about this. And you were knocking on yours. You would just ask people and they had answers for you. Can you elaborate on that? Like, does there a lot that you left out of those interactions?

Yeah. I mean, yeah, unfortunately, you know, you shoot hundreds of hours of interviews and you've got to whittle it down to an hour and 40 minutes, hour and 45 minutes maybe. That's a really tough decision, right? I mean, I call it killing your darlings. I mean, there's so many GMs in there that you just can't squeeze into a movie. And it's heartbreaking. In fact, at some point, I think I might be, I mean, they're not trying toot my own horn here,

but I think I might be probably sitting on the biggest archive of interviews over the last 30 years because I've made so many documentaries and there's so many, so much content. I was actually talking to some people the other day. I might have been talking to Jesse Michaels. Hey, if I had some resources, resources, not financial resource, but manpower, we can go through all my various tapes and interviews over the last three decades and make it all available to people. Put it out there for free. That was my next question.

I was like, when are we going to see the YouTube mash up of all this? Because as a content creator, you're sitting on a pile of gold. I'm sitting on a pile of gold. And a lot of people are, I got the only interviews with them before they died. Wow. A lot of people. That's like Roswell stuff. Oh, yeah.

I was there filming in 1997 in Roswell. I was getting people talking about. I remember at a time because I was kind of new to it. I was only in it for a few years at the time. But the one distinct advantage I had going to Roswell for the 50th anniversary is, A, was getting a lot of attention to the media. And B, if people were in their 20s during the experience or maybe their 30s, they were in their 70s and 80s, right?

So they were still around. They were still there. I must have talked to at least 15 people, maybe 20. My goodness. And a lot of them on camera, you know, I would just get them like, you know, just this guy was like, you know, talked about the mayor. I think it was the mayor of the time. He said he was white as a goats, saw some of the stuff.

And he said that they not only threatened them, I heard this from at least 10, maybe 15 people, that they were saying they're not only going to be picking my bones out of the desert, but your family's bones. That's what they told me. Do you think there's any credence to, this is something I've been researching recently, but just on that that you mentioned,

that you touched on there, the threatening of the families and everything else? and the people who work for these legacy programs. Do you think there's any validity to recruiting out of places like BYU and like Utah? I got to, I got to say I don't have much concrete information on that. I don't, I don't know. Yeah, it's something I've just been recently turned on to because of the nature of their faith. They don't drink smoke, their straight arrows, they have large families.

And there's an article. put out a few years back about the FBI. There was actually, this went to court because there was a case made against the FBI that they were basically recruiting, there was discrimination for recruitment within these three letter agencies because they were solely pretty much recruiting Mormons. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah, because they got large families. They're never going to talk. They never drink. They never do drugs. And, you know, they're all into like family and hiking. and work and that's it, you know? So there's, there's something really, and, you know, when you look at Dougway, you look at all the interesting, you know, places in Utah, it kind of makes sense, you know, that that BYU would be like this breeding ground for, for these, you know,

straight arrow, white male, intelligent, you know what I mean? Because that's the whole profile of these agents, it seems like. People often mistake me for being like a Richard Dolan. You know, Richard Dolan has got a breadth of knowledge on cases far expanding, way beyond anything that I'll ever have. The cases that I know, I know because I put boots on the ground. I mean, I've went to China, I went to Australia, I went to Africa, I went to South America, I went to Russia, do you know what I mean? And I know those cases really well because I met the witnesses. I went to the, you know, all those spots.

I mean, case in point, Virginia, I mean, I went, I'm still going there. I'm going to go there probably next month. Let me stop you there. Yeah. So you said you're going to go there next month. Yes. Is that something, is this like a continuation or is this a personal project or is this like? Continuation. Really?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah. So you're saying there might be new developments. Oh, there's definitely new developments, yes. That you're aware of already. Yes. How long?

Did it take the- I got half guaranteed, which is great. So if I come back with just that, it's going to be golden. Half the documentary. Sorry. I got half of the security interviews. that are, or, it's, it's phenomenal. I understand.

Yeah, that's like locked. Okay, that's good. Now, the other half that you got to go there. It'll either happen or it won't happen. If it happens, it'll make world news. But again, who knows, who knows? This is a tough not to crack. But it's like, I'm not going to, I don't just give up on things.

Case in point, look at Calvin. I mean, I was chasing that down for 20 plus years. I don't let go, you know. And it's great, too, because other people like, like David Clark is amazing. we wouldn't be talking about Calvin that wasn't for him. You know, but I never took my eye off that case. And as soon as I read that first article, it was like, oh, my gosh, I got to go to Scotland. I got to cover that because it's amazing.

And new developments are constantly happening. We put in the movie, the program, if you have any information on this case, like, you know, it's the same thing for Varginia. All these cases. I mean, they're, you know, people are starting to come out of the woodwork and people are starting to feel a little safer. We're living in an unprecedented time right. now, witnesses are starting to feel a little more comfortable. It's more, say, mainstream,

but it's more acceptable to be talking about these things. I'd like to find the pilot who was flying that Harrier jet. Duh. You think he got film footage of it? Yeah, I'm sure he did. Yeah, he also got a visit. He probably got a visit too, but he flew all around. And I was told that because if you look at that photograph, got that perfect diamond or disc, right? And I was talking to Craig Lindsay, the RAF press officer, and I was like, what do those other five pictures look like? And he goes, James, he goes, they were so shocked, the witnesses were so scared when this thing was hovering in the air. They would know what the hell was going on.

And they only got the courage up when the military jet came in. And the military jet did, according to Craig Lindsay, who interviewed them and saw all the other prints, is that they took the camera up from one of the bushes and they snapped five or six pictures as the military jet did a complete pass all the way around this disc right so whoever was flying that harrier jet got a really good view got the best view of it flew flew flew right towards it and then flew around it and then went back so where's that radar data where's the visual like gun cam footage like whoa this case is just getting going here that's some independence day stuff right so let's just say that he was in his 30s because most fighter pilots

are pretty young, right? So let's just say he was in his, let's say he was 35. Yeah. Okay. So what was, how long ago was that case? 34 years. He'd be 65. Yeah. So let's say he's, he's probably between 65 and 75. That's a pretty comfortable. So you know what? And they're usually pretty healthy. Still time. So he's probably, he's out there. And if you are out there and you're listening to this, please get in touch with us. You know, that's, that's, it's something I'm learning from you. as like a content creator as like a pseudo-documentarian myself, I'm learning the tenacity that you have is just really important for this field because as someone who's used to in the past really churning out content

and sort of like the second I press upload is the second I need to forget about it and focus on the next thing, right? So I have to reprogram myself to stick with something and not just go with the immediate thing and post it. I got to sit on things. I got to do my homework. and go there and take my time. And I want to thank you for teaching me that. That's a really, really valuable lesson for me.

And sometimes it's okay. Like when I did Out of the Blue, and I don't know if I told you this, when I was like, you know, when is a project ever done, right? Usually you're out of money. You're out of steam. We're exhausted. Usually it's out of money. But I remember we were probably four years into Out of the Blue,

maybe three had a screening. I'm watching people fidget. it, that's bad. Look at their watches, checking out their phones, tying their shoelaces, you know. Screening. Oh, yeah. Not good. And they all left and they kind of patted me on the shoulder. Hey, nice job. James, I knew what, yeah, the film was not ready for prime time. So I went back at it for like, and I remember I fell into this really dark place like, oh, like it's so depressed. It's like, oh, you feel like you're just climbing this mountain. It's never going to end. Like,

I'm in a ring with a monster and I'm trying to figure out how to how to win this? the next round, right? And I sank down to the couch after the screening. I got really depressed, and I slept with my clothes on at my dad's house. Then I work up the next morning. I was like, I pick myself up at the bootstraps. I'm going back at it. So I spent two more years out of the blue. It was a lot better. I got it to a much better place. But it still wasn't quite where I wanted it to be. But I remember my partner, Boris, and his wife is yelling me that he was in a fetal position crying because we were pushing each other so hard and we were broke. And she's like, you're killing my husband. you know, she was really angry with me, looking at me like I'm the devil.

You know, so I was like, okay, I better release this movie. But I released it. In the back of my mind, I was like, ah, that movie's not done. And then I got a letter in the mail three years later. I sold it to NBC Universal and they were like, Mr. Fox, just wanted to inform me. We're not going to, we decided not to renew our broadcast option. I was like, yes, I own it again. So I got it back, and then I went back at it for two, four years like that.

Wow. And then it still wasn't quite what I wanted it to be, but it was a lot better. and then I tried it again with a with I know what I saw sold I know what I saw it was a two hour special into the history channel again broke broke broke so broke I could barely even afford to pay attention when I finished that one I was so broke and I remember I was my credit card out and I had a I had like a $70,000 credit card debt true and I was so like barely making that monthly payment right and I mean barely making by the skin of my teeth and I was like two days late and they jacked up my interest rate to double or triple, whatever it was.

And I called the company and I was like, you guys, what are you doing? Are you trying to force me to like go belly up on this? I was like default on my loan. I said, I was barely making the payment at that rate. And now you just triple, you know, so this was all going on. Kicking you while you're down. Yeah. Anyway, so I got the, I got the, yeah, kicking you while you're down.

And like, so I got the, I know what I saw sold. In the back of my mind, I was like, it's not what I wanted it, you know. you've always had that. You've always had that. I'm not done with this. It was not satisfied. It just wasn't like, you know, you have a concept in your mind as something that you do, whether it's a painting or maybe a studio space or maybe just whatever project it is. You know, when you have that, you have a vision. The vision, you know, and you just let you set out to make that happen. And sometimes it aligns with the vision. Sometimes it doesn't. And in my case, it kept not. And I was like, God, I went through my 20s and I went through my 30s and I hit 40 and I, and I hit 40. And I, I was like, oh my gosh, I took a couple years off UFOs, and I did a film on the BP oil spill. I just stepped, you know, I just needed a break. And then when I hit 43, I was like, all right, I'm going at it one more time. And that's when I did the phenomenon. I did it eight years.

And that is like arguably eight years, possibly the best documentary out there on the subject. So it's, I mean, that's, and, you know, well. And that, that was the first time I went, did it. This is it. Yes. You can feel it, though. Watching that, like, I mean, it's perfect. I didn't watch it for two years after I finished it.

Because you were just sick of seeing the footage? Excuse me, it was so traumatic. Getting that film across the finishing line. And then right when I finished it, we were going to have, for the first time in my whole career, we're going to have a theatrical release and the ink had barely dried on the contracts. And then COVID's coming, right? Right, yeah. And I was like, no.

Like, no. And I remember my sister called me, and she goes, she was kind of crying. we both were kind of crying. And she's like, it took a global pandemic to stop you. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, I'm rambling. No, I mean, it's fascinating to hear because, you know, we don't get to hear this normally. We get to see the final product.

And as someone who's creative, my final product is constantly out there. And people don't really understand the work that goes behind it. And not only the work, the emotional sort of ups and downs that you have to put aside to get the work done. And that weighs heavy when the project ends because now you have to deal with all that compartmentalized baggage that you've been putting away. And it just hits you like a truck. And then you've got to somehow pick yourself up and do it again. And so, you know, as a creator myself, it's commendable. I take my hat off to you.

It's definitely something that isn't easy and, you know, on top of traveling and everything else. And, you know, there's just so many factors that go into making such a monumental project. and it doesn't go unnoticed. I want to know that. My son, who you've met, he went, because, you know, he was born, when he was, when all he was born, I didn't even have a bank account

because I know what I saw, some tax issues happened, it was horrible, and I fought it, but long story short, I remember like, I got a check for like $1,500 and I was so stoked, I put it in the account, and I went to go get the money the next day to pay off my phone bill and all this other stuff.

And the woman, the teller, I was like, sir, you're zero balance. I said, zero balance. I said, I made a deposit last night. I got to be at zero balance. She's like, well, you made a withdrawal. I said, I didn't make a withdrawal. Anyway, so there's like three-year period where I didn't have a bank account.

I remember I was making the phenomenon and people were like, dude, you can't make a moot? You don't have a bank account? What are you talking about a bank account? What is wrong with you? You know? I was like, look, man, it is what it is right now, okay? I'm just getting through it. I'm doing the best I can.

It's wild. Yeah, I swear the God. That is, where people are you. That's 10 years ago? Like, what is that? A little over 10 years ago, yeah. Oh my gosh.

Yeah, isn't that crazy? Dead is crazy. Yeah. All right, I got a few other questions here I want to get to. Before we get into some, like. My favorite color is blue. Okay. Dark, midnight blue.

I wanted to talk about a little bit about, we touched on this earlier, and you touched on with the men in black, how you were kind of, uncomfortable with the term and in black because it's a little cliche. Aside from that, what is one sort of mischaracterization or one misconception within the public's view of the phenomenon or of UFOs that you would like to erase that if you could think of it? Like, I'd just erase it from people's mind. Couple.

One run off the top. Why does it always happen in the desert in the United States? Let's see. I cover a case in Australia, Africa, South America, Chile, like England, Russia. Russia, China, like, you know, Canada, Alaska, across the United States, this is a global phenomenon. That's one thing for sure. Second thing is people think that the witnesses are just looking for a limelight. If people had a behind the scenes look at what it took for us to make a moment of contact and to get those people to come forward, we worked on them for years, years, just to find them.

And then we'd meet with them. And they're like, how did you find me? How did you know I was involved with that? I don't care how much money you offer me. It's never going to happen. I'm never coming forward. And we'd work on them and work on them and work on them and work on them. And then some of them were like, you know, at the end of the day, I was like, we're going to get an anonymous.

you know, get their new appearance. And honestly, it's the better the witness, the more compelling the case, the less likely the people are ever going to want to come forward. That's just a fact. And that's, that's me in the field. Wow. Is there any, has there ever been a moment where it's just like slipped out of your hands or something that you, you were so close and it was like a big thing.

Yeah. What's one of those things that like slipped out of your hands? The footage, the alien footage. Of Virginia? Yes. You were that close? We had a hard drive in our hands. You had a hard drive in our hands.

Are you kidding me? Not kidding you. But you didn't see the footage. No. No. You had the footage in your hands. See how I can talk about this. Holy.

Well, okay. So I just want to talk about this without revealing the detail because we're going back. We found, we talked to a number of doctors face-to-face that saw the footage. Okay. And not only saw the footage, but new. were friends with the individual who took the footage. And this is just one in particular. That was on the medical side.

That was on the doctor's side and the humanitarian hospital. So we located, we went, excuse me, we went after the individual. Unfortunately, the individual had died horseback riding or something. I don't know something happened. So we went to the individual, this was all spanning over probably. a two-year period, maybe a little longer. We went to the individual's house and talked to the wife, and the wife was somewhat dismissive initially, but then we went back with testimony from the other fellow doctors talked about it. And the wife was talking to our, my partner, Marco Lael,

like the room was bugged and was like I don't know I don't know what you're talking about I don't know what you mean and reaches down and grabs us a hard drive I don't know I'm not sure what no there's nothing there's nothing here

gives the hard drive to Marco now he's got the hard drive what shape was it is a USB it's an old old like like probably a 20 year old hard drive maybe 15 20 year old hard drive and and and but so

So we were like, oh my God. So, you know, we're hours outside of Sao Paulo and he's driving around. And I'm like, dude, you need to get to someplace secure and back that thing up immediately. And I was like, you're driving around for four days in the area? No, like this could be the biggest. So this is happening. And so it's encrypted and we're trying to get it like, nobody could do it in that area. So we took the drive back to Sao Paulo and we're having like high level technicians costing a lot

of money, like the salaries for a lot of people for a whole month just to get, do a deep dive in the drive and da-da-da-da-da-da-da. We were pretty convinced that we had it because we knew, we knew beyond a shadow of doubt that this guy is the one that shot it according to all the other doctors that we talked to and all the other doctors that knew him and all the other doctors that saw it, that saw the footage and described it. And so we were overwhelmed with excitement, as you can imagine, got the whole thing encrypted and it and it wasn't. there. So, but that let, we thought we had it. We really did. We were, you know, so, but that led to other, there are other individuals that, uh, we need to go see that live a couple of hours away

from where that happened and so that we're quite convinced. So we know, we know, according to all these doctors who shot it, who had it for sure, and then he had a heart attack and died suddenly. So that footage is somewhere. He didn't just throw that away. And we knew what format that footage. You know, anyway. So that was one. Then there was another individual.

I can't release the name and the look, but it's an official individual who had a photograph and I had him described to me what was seen in the photograph. And this is an official. This is not like a civilian. This is a, and we talked to this individual. And it was like one of the aliens was alive.

One was dead. And there were a number of, um, firemen. And firemen, as well as police officers, are connected to the military in Brazil. So if you're working for the fire department, you're actually a military personnel, right? And the same thing for, for like, radar control officers, you're still military. It's all like to the military. It's all like to the military.

Police officer, military. And so we interviewed this individual and we talked to two people that he was friends with that he showed the photograph to. and then I spoke to the individual who allegedly has the photograph and got this individual to describe what the photograph showed and we thought we were going to get it that day but we didn't but again this is an ongoing thing but who said it was one one dead and one alive and that there were a number of firemen in the photograph posing with where they were in the background of the yes yeah which which aligns with

some of the research that we'd done in terms of like how because there was there were a couple of captures. There was probably more than that, maybe five or six, but we only really have two good solid leads on maybe two or three of the captures. One was with military police officer Marco Cherise and the guy driving the car, Eric Lopes. And then there was another capture

from the fire department with a net. With like the new salmos. Catching wild animals. Yeah, they did that. And we talked to one of the individuals that was involved with that operation. And then there was another one that the entity might have been shot.

Because we heard people in the town describe a gunshot go off and then something was carried out of the forested area. So that was like three. I think we reported on two, maybe we reported on three in a moment of contact. But there were some evidence from some of the research we talked to indirectly, this guy, Ubarajad, Rodriguez and Pekicini, that there were up to five entities that were captured.

But again, I don't know. We only had to solve the lead on two or three of them. At what point, One of them was alive. Yeah, that's, I mean, that is, that is disturbing. At what point in the investigation or in your documentary, did you, were you close to this information? Was this towards the end or was this like in the heart of it?

Closer for the end. So back in like 2013, and I can talk openly about this now, and I have talked about it in the past, but this is like, you know, a lot of people wonder like what keeps you going on a 12, 13, 14, 14 year investigation on something, right? because let's just face it, whether you believe a UFO crash and live aliens were captured, I totally understand you're in Belven's to believe that because it's a big story. And, you know, but I ask your audience, if you can suspend judgment, imagine for a moment that it did happen, you know, it's a very significant event, right?

So, but sometimes you doubt yourself, like, particularly early on, like, when I first heard about the case, I was like, there's no way that happened. There's no way live aliens walked around the town of Virginia. And the whole world not knows. It's impossible. You dismissed it. I dismissed it for 10 years. Do we don't even look into it?

Being someone who's already done documentaries on UFOs, you dismissed it. Absolutely. Okay. So you can understand how a skeptic might. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

So I started looking to it maybe in 2011. And in 2013, I got an interview with Marco Lael with an Air Force General by the name of Jose Carlos Pereira. Yeah, Jose Carlos Perreira, Air Force Brazilian General. excuse me, sat down an interview, and there were a lot of cases. There's, you know, it was Calaris that happened in the 70s. There's the Knights of UFOs of Brazil in 1986. Massive oversight, scrambled military jets and a press conference.

A lot of great cases. And he's like, I could talk about this case, that case. You talk about Virginia, this interview is terminated, goodbye. And I was like, well, really? And he was very serious. Like, you know, and I, well, I had an Air Force, Brazilian Air Force, guys sitting down with us. I wasn't going to jeopardize. So we

didn't talk about Virginia. And then we rolled camera for however how long we interviewed, an hour and a half, or whatever it was. And at the end, shut all the equipment off, all the audio, and I walked up to him, I looked him in the eyes, I looked into his soul. And I was like, please. And Marco was sitting there right there with me. I said,

I said, please. I said, I promise you all my life. There was no camera audio, nothing rolling. This is between you and me right here, right now. tell me about Virginia. And I'm looking in the eyes and he's like preparing to leave. He's got a driver waiting for him. And Marco's doing the same thing. I was practically like fucking licking the guy's boots.

I mean, I'd never looked so deeply into someone's soul before. I wanted to know so bad. So he didn't say anything. He didn't respond. We followed him all the way back to the car. Marco was right there with me. He gets in the car.

The door's still open in the back seat. The driver's sitting there waiting. The engine's running. And he looks up at Mark. And he goes, it happened. Close the door and off he went. I was like, fuck. Marco and I both were like, and I tell you, like that kept us going.

That was like that reignited our flame. You know what I mean? Yeah. Why would he say that to us? Yeah, no reason. No reason, man. And then he died a couple years later. But that was like, you know, can I share that publicly?

And people go, yeah, sure, whatever. a rumor. Yeah, I get it. I totally get it. And I don't expect anyone even believe that that happened. But it happened to me and Marco. And that kept us going for another 10 years. That's one of my next questions, actually. Have you ever come close to abandoning something and then what kept you going? Yeah. There you go. That is, that, I mean, that is like, you know, I have this question I ask to people a lot. And I think this might be the answer to that, and I'm going to ask it anyways, but is there a moment or, and not the first moment, but a moment where you tell yourself, this changes everything?

Yeah. I mean, so I did this thing on Reddit recently, and it was basically the first time this woman, Andrea, put it on. I met her at the Soul Foundation, and she's like, hey, I run this, like, community thing at Reddit, and I want to do this thing it's never been done before. I want to get all the various platforms and communities and Reddit

to all coalesce and get together and put together as one event and be supportive and she did. She goes, can you get a couple of people that were part of the task force, part of the government investigation?

I was like, okay, my two primary targets was Len Val Logan and this guy, Kirk McConnell. And Kirk McConnell investigated. Never really prior, he had 37 years experience

and Armed Services a number of other thing. You can look them up. But he really put a laser-like focus on UFOs from 2017 to 2024. And he, I'll get to the relevance in this a minute, he had the distinct opportunity to sit down with so-called firsthand witnesses. Now everyone's talking about the fact they want firsthand witnesses, and I get it. After David Grush testified under oath that we have crash retrieval program, we got people working on technology, we got, you know, biologics, as he put it everybody wants those first-handers. Well, according to McConnell, I think it was like somewhere between eight and 12, firsthand people have testified, like had meetings in a skiff behind closed doors,

right? First-handers, the ones that we all want to see in opening one, I'm guessing. One's in the program. Yes. And so, um, so we had this Reddit thing and they were like, okay, so James, you're going to be on and you're going to have Lenville Logan and then we have Kirk McConnell. Kurt was a very busy guy. We're probably going to just focus primarily on him, but the verse hour, and then we'll switch over to Lenville Logan of Lenwell. Logan wants to stick with you for the second hour. Great, you know, but we're going to do like, you know, Kirk. Then we're going to do Lenville Logan. And then we're going to do, you know, you. And I was like, I'm far less important. These guys should. So anyway, so we start talking. And there were people asking him

questions. And then I, I had this little chat where they said, if something pops up during this three hour thing, you can, you can message us. And so I said, I got a question. Because I hadn't thought about this one. And I said, you claim that you were sitting in the SCIF with members of the Senate. I'm guessing Rubio and Rounds and Schumer. Pretty. And that you guys met with firsthand witnesses, people that are directly involved with the program that are working on alien technology, shit like that. Right. I said, can you, can you describe what it was like to sit in that room? and like, like, listen to someone that you believe was directly working on alien technology. Can you put me in that fucking, please?

Describe the atmosphere. What was it like? Did you look in the eyes of the senators? And he was like, wow, you know, and then he put us in the room. It's all on tape. You can look it up on the Reddit. I've actually put it on my, my ex as well. I highly advise.

I've seen. I'll go see the damn thing. of it here, but go watch this in its entirety. At James C. Fox on X, formerly known as Twitter, and go watch that damn thing because, my God, that's one of those moments. Can you put us in the room and tell us what the atmosphere felt like? It's a very, it's a tough thing to get your mind around and to be confronted with it, you know, coming from another person whom you find credible based on their credentials

and their clearances and their background and all that, you know, it certainly makes it hard to go to sleep at night, you know, for a good while. What did the senators, do they have a sort of slack-jawed appearance as well, or was it just? No, I mean, I don't think any of us fell on the floor, you know, in anguish or anything, But it was very serious, very serious and very sobering. And there was, you know, just wrapped attention to what was being said and trying to absorb it.

But, yeah, you know, they would take this information on board. Did you get the impression that these individuals were scared? Well, it varied. Certainly some, in some instances, I mean, some people, there was real fear. Yes, there was real anxiety about speaking, about what, you know, speaking out what they had to say. Yeah. It was very disturbing to them, yeah. Very disturbing to them, yeah.

And I asked him, what was it like? Like afterwards, he was like, I had a hard time coming home and processing, wrapping my mind around. Oh my God, this changes everything. And when I was investigating the Varsenia case, I would, I swear to God, I looked, I'm 99.9% sure that I looked directly into the eyes of a gentleman who drove an alien around.

I'm like, how do you process that? I was looking to his eyes for an hour and a half, okay? I could see the intensity of it all. We tracked him down. And this individual had given an on-camera statement right after it happened with a number of firsthand people that were involved with the incident as an insurance policy that if anything happened to them and all the researchers within the area knew there were 15, 20 copies of those tapes made

back in 1996 that if anything happened to those witnesses that was going to be released to the general public, that was the general public. their insurance policy. So we'd seen that footage. I couldn't use it, but I'd seen it, and it's, wow. But my point is this, is that Kirk was describing the impact that that had on him, you know, that reality. It's like a distortion of reality. Like, everything's not as it seems, right? This changes everything. And when I would come home from a month at a time investigating, and I'm knocking on doors, meeting with weddings, doctors, military guys, firemen, like, people that drove the, I mean, we were digging into this damn case I wanted to know so bad.

And I'd come home and I couldn't really talk about it because I started, like, as soon as I started talking about it, people just look at me like I'd lost my fucking mind, right? And I remember the last time I went, I got back and I had CNN at my house with Leslie Kane and I'd just gotten back on my last trip, I'd shot the whole movie. excuse me and um they were like oh my god you just got back from brazil it's incredible oh my gosh tell us about your trip what happened i love the smoothies and the coffees over there it's incredible place isn't it did you go to rio go out there what about that parritchie those islands off the co you know and i would say they're going i think i looked into the face of a guy i drove an alien around and a UFO

crashed and live aliens were walking through the town and they were captured the americans came in and got this stuff, you know. And I was like, yeah, no, I'm not going to talk about any of it. They were like, you have the perfect opportunity. We're doing a profile on you. No, no, well, wait till the movie comes out. Good call. Because you're going to look at me like I need to up the dosage of whatever medication

I'm not on right now. That's seriously like, but I guess what I'm trying to get at is that you come back from this, these experiences, and your reality is so distorted. You're like, It's a post-traumatic experience. It's a post-traumatic experience, and Kirk had the same damn thing. Kirk and I had talked about that, comparing notes. Like, he would come back, he would try to tell certain things to his wife.

And his wife's looking at them like, honey, have you lost it? Are you okay? Like, you know. That's how profound experiences are. Because not only do the affect experiencers, they affect those who talk to experiencers. That's how profound that is. I mean, that's incredible. that it had that effect on a secondhand witness, right?

Oh, yeah. This is insane. This is, I mean, I'm getting that feeling just talking to you. Yeah. You know, like, I'm three people removed from this guy now, but I'm still enthralled, and I'm like, I'm projecting my own self there and how would I feel and what would I do? And how do I feel about this now? And it's pro, it's, yeah, it's seismic.

It's, you know, I. I remember talking to various composers for, I go to great lengths to put, I don't do canned music for my films. I spend a lot on the score. And I remember describing to a couple of different composers, Mateo and this guy, Chris, Chris Hogg, he's an amazing guy. I say, just imagine, you guys, imagine taking the cloth of reality and just take the cloth of reality and just tearing it right apart, right? Like, I want it, I want, I want, I want the audience to be where that individual was when they made face-to-face contact allegedly with this alien creature, right? I want it to be the most unfamiliar feeling of intensity and mystery and intrigue and

do you know what I mean? And alien. And I say alien as sort of outside of our world in the sense and it's so foreign, you don't even know what you're looking at, right? Like, you don't even know how to process what you're looking at. Put me there. Put me there with that score. In particular, I remember when the children had face-to-face contact, you know, in Rua Zimbabwe. Or when the, again, the children had face-to-face contact. Like when you made eye contact with that creature, God damn, I want to be there.

Yeah. What did it feel like? What kind of communication took place? Did communication day place? Did time stop? Could you hear anything? And you want the audience to feel that. Yes, I want the audience to feel that.

I want to feel that. Yeah. I want to be there. That experience is so profound, you know? So I always remember, I like, take reality and just rip it all apart. And I want to feel so, you know, just recreate that if you can. And it has to be with very unfamiliar sounds and things. that just don't make any sense.

Because that's, you know. Love that. Right? Yeah, it's unsettling. Yeah. It's unfamiliar. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, ma'am. And we, you know, we talked about this a little bit, but there had to have been times where there was information that was just maybe too controversial or risky to include. Did you ever, did you ever encounter any of those, any of such? periods of conversation that you were just like, this is, I can't, like, or. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How about in the program? Was there anything there that you had to leave out? Oh, lots of stuff I had to leave out.

Like, I mean, for reasons of. Classifications, yeah. Yeah. Really. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Everybody, like, particularly the Intel folks, had to approve everything. Wow.

And some even had to get. I'm trying to remember the acronym Dobser. But it's basically a pre-publication approval. And I believe that everybody had to do that. A lot of the people that I interviewed had to do that. And in one instance, I had to end up at the last minute, I had to delete a certain word that was mentioned in the film. And then you'll see it beeped out, you know.

And, you know, there's also controversy. Oh, yeah. I mean, we know what the word is, though. Yeah. Yeah, it's area 51. Yeah. But it had to be bleeped out. Yeah, I had to do that.

That's so strange. Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, that's a good compromise, though. Yeah. Like, where they're like, just bleep it out. You're like, but you can see him saying. Area 50. Yeah, it's pretty much like, oh, wonder what he's talking about.

I don't even read lips. And I was like, I don't know exactly what he. Oh, my God. And then you just lay the image of the, the Google Maps right over it. I'm like, oh, that's cute. Yeah, right. That's cute that they asked him to. So funny.

Yeah, interesting. But there has been times where, like, has it ever bummed you out where you're like, really? So I just got some information on crash retrieval stuff recently that was like, wow. And so I asked this individual that I trusted. And I went after this individual. This individual did not come to me. I'd known about this individual and I was for a long time.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then finally we got, you know. And this individual shared some fucking wow stuff with me. So I said, hey, I'm about to do this whole circuit of interview. every time my films come out, I'll go the rounds and do the podcast and the radio interviews, obviously spread the word for my, for my movie, can I just say I heard it somewhere? No, no, no, no, no. Not even, not even anecdotal.

Nope. Very adamant about that. No, they'll know. They'll know as him. Yes. Whoa. Or her. Or her.

I'm trying. And it knows them. Whoa. Yeah, isn't that funny? Yeah. And it's so funny, too, because, like, that's, specific. So that's a really, that's an unknown piece of information.

Date location. I see. It's not like a broad sort of like, oh, we put it up on this type of trailer. Very specific. It is. Yeah, very specific with the evidence, with, with the, yes, the bodies, the craft. Wow. Yes.

And it really jarred me. And, you know, I'm very open and I do documentaries. And I mean, I'm on this personal journey where I'm just really. curious and I keep wanting to get to the bottom of it. The more I dig, the more crazy it all kind of gets. I feel like, you know, I've been at it for 30 years now and I feel like almost dumber than I was 30 years ago in the sense that I have more questions today than I've ever had, right? That makes you wise, I think. And I'm sitting there going, what the hell is going on? And the one thing that I've really learned, just because something sounds really outlandish and

really unbelievable, don't have that knee-jerk response of just quick dismissal because I've had it my whole career. Ruizimbabwe. I heard about Ruiz Zimbabwe through Stephen Spielberg. Because I was making my first doc in the 90s, UFOs 50 years of denial. And I had a mutual friend, this woman, Janet Yang. And I was just naive enough to think I was in my 20s like, I'll get it. I'm making a document on UFOs? Of course, Billberg's going to give me an interview. So I went through Janet Yang and she got back, she goes, well, yeah, no, he's not going to meet with you. But he said, since you're doing a doc on UFOs, you should really look into this landing that happened in Africa at the school, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, a landing happened

at a school in broad daylight and the aliens got out of their little spaceships and talked to the kids, you know, sure. And I didn't even look in, I didn't spend one second looking into it. You believe that? Wow. And then same thing with Virginia. I'd heard about Virginia. Well, the first time I heard about Virginia, I was, I was mapping out out of the blue. And I had this partner, Tim Coleman, British guy, very smart.

And Tim's like, you know, I was like, bent waters. Let's look into the, you know, March 13th, Phoenix Lights. Let's look into these other various cases. is Robertson panel, 52 Capitol. And then he goes, oh, mate, this is absolutely amazing crash case. It took place in Brazil. I don't think he used the word version of the time. That was in Brazil.

And these bloody aliens are walking around in the town. And I had looked at them like, and I thought to myself, I picked the wrong partner. Oh, no. Like, this guy, this guy's a freak. He's lost his marvel. He's lost his marvels. Like, what was I thinking? Like, he came across as really grounded, pragmatic,

intelligent, and yet, and I was, I had a really hard time, like even keeping him as a partner because I was so concerned about his mental state of health, like that he wanted me to actually go investigate a case where live aliens are walked to the time. This guy's clearly lost his mind. He's, he's gone out way on the deep end. Didn't look into that case for at least 10 years. And then I remember the next time I heard about Virginia was 2011. So that would have been at least 11 years later, probably 12. And it was a guy, Jeff Saganzky, and you can look them up, very high up on the food chain of the entertainment industry, like former head of Sony. And he's always been extremely helpful to me over the years. And there's a funny connection about that, which I could

talk about in a minute. But he's like, I was going to, I was going to Brazil. I got invited to go speak at Brazil at a conference. And he goes, oh, James, you're going to Brazil. Fantastic. You look into the Virginia case. I was like, the what? The what? case. You know, with a UFO crash and the live aliens, I was like, oh, God, not this again. So I told Jeff, I said, they had a lot of respect for him. And he was very helpful for me. And I wasn't going to, like, burn that bridge.

But I was like, sure, Jeff. Yeah, I'll, yeah, I'll definitely look into that while I'm over there. Yeah, sure, click. Yeah, that ain't going to happen. And then I got to Brazil and then I ended up meeting some witnesses, whatever. What was the guy? So I asked Jeff one time. It's interesting.

And you're going to have to help me get the name of this guy because I'm trying to remember. He was in Smoking the Bandit. He was the pool shark that played Paul Newman. Yeah. You know, the guy I'm talking about, come on, I know, right? So, famous. Very famous.

And he'll come to us in a Sunday. But he worked on a movie with him way back in the day. And he apparently pulled Jeff aside and said, Jackie Gleason. Jackie Gleason. And Jackie Gleason said to Jeff, according to Jeff, told me this. I don't care what anybody ever tells you. I know for a fact that UFOs are real

and the government has definitive proof of that. And he told him that, but he didn't give him specifics like I was taken out by the president or whatever. But he said that to Jeff way back. Wow. It might have been the 70s. Yeah, off the record. Yeah, just off the record like you just so you know,

like don't, no matter what anybody tells you, no, 100%. I'm telling you 100%. Have you ever looked at a case and just felt in your gut that it was real despite the lack of evidence, like recently? Has there been anything, you know, despite there's lack of evidence? But has anything told you, man, this feels like it might have happened? Has there anything like that recently that's come across? Recently, recently.

Like in the last maybe 10 years, has there ever been something that you're like, there's not a lot here, but something tells me. O'Hare is pretty good. Yeah, the airport's sighting. I think that was. Yeah. That's pretty compelling. We don't have a photograph. A photograph was taken. Yeah, apparently. And it's out there somewhere.

It's got to be more than one, too. Oh, yeah, I'm sure. I imagine it happened nowadays. I mean, there's cameras everywhere. Yeah. And I was actually going to go investigate that case. I was doing pickup interviews for the time. It might have been out of the blue, but I think eventually transitioned into, I know what I saw. And I was in Phoenix, and it was late. 2008, late 2008. I was in Phoenix and I was doing pickup interviews of that massive flyover. New witnesses were coming forward, willing to go on camera,

families that were on their lawn lying on their backs watching this boomerang-shaped crap. They said it was so big it took minutes to pass over them, moving super slowly, analyzing the compartments of the metal. And I was doing follow-up interviews for that for a film idea. I know what I saw. And then I was going to go to O'Hare. And I was in touch with a couple of people,

netted airlines, and they were like, maybe going to consider going on camera if I disguised their, you know, their, but that was all I could get on it. But I was like, wow, this is really compelling. And then I got a phone call about a mass sighting that took place at Stevenville, Texas, Dublin, Stevenville. And so I canceled my trip to O'Hare, which would have been really cool, because it only happened two years prior. And who knows, maybe what. FAA is like, who, who knows what I would have come up with, right? Because I know that photographic. exists. Like, who took the photograph? Where did that photograph go? I picture there's an MIB story behind that photograph. You know what I'm saying? They probably got in there.

So I had a whole camera crew ready to go. So we jumped on a plane and pooh, went to Stephenville, Texas. It was amazing. And that was like, I mean, the whole town, they had a town hall meeting. Like, the town was all there. Like, it was a big deal. And the night before, so I flew my crew to Stevenville, Texas. And I flew to New York. and I went on Larry King Live. And so about that case, and of course, I hadn't had boots on the ground yet, so I didn't really know what I was talking about, but I was like, you know, did exhibit a technology, you know, it was massive,

and no air disturbance, ability to hover. I decided to look of an eye, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so when I arrived, that aired live, when I arrived like the next day or the day, yeah, it was probably the next day 24 hours later. There's a little funny side note to that. I can tell you or not, but the whole town knew who I was. because I was on Larry King the night before. Wow.

So I suddenly, like, arrived and they were like, Oh, my God, you know. James Box! I had access to everybody. Oh, cool. Everybody wanted to meet, you know. And that's when I got to meet, probably one of my best,

one of the best witnesses ever, and that's Ricky Sorrell, to this day, he's one of the most compelling. A, he didn't want to come forward. It took me eight months to get him to finally go on camera. Wow. And he...

He was one of the gun. He was one of the gun. He stood into the craft, and he examined the metal of the craft through his scope, and he almost pulled the trigger to see if the bullet was going to ricochet off it or something. But he said it was a metal worker.

And he said, like, it didn't have any rivets or welds or folds. Like, it was just like a mold. And then he talked about these recessed cones. I mean, Ricky Sorles is one of the top witnesses. How many people do you know that stood under a UFO that was so big? He couldn't see the edge of it in any direction. He goes, you could have landed an airplane on that damn thing. That's a ceiling outside.

And, yeah. And when it took off, he said, had I blinked, I would have missed it. And it said, it went from a hover right above his head, and it went off at an angle like this. He goes, it didn't go like this. It just went like this. And I said, well, describe the speed. He goes,

had I blinked, I would have missed it. Went from here to the stars in the blink of an eye. You know, I've seen no nuts, bolts, rivets, seams, no welds. None of this. It looked like a piece of sheet metal.

You know, it It wasn't shiny. It was a dull. I don't know what you'd call it a mat, finish maybe. And this is what I had a hard time with. Was if something was to leave, in my mind, it should pivot up and go, like an airplane would. This did not do that. This stayed completely flat, and it went at a 45-degree angle away.

And it took off at such a high-rate speed that no one in the only described. it is if I would have blinked, I would have thought it just disappeared. Great case. He got spooked, too. He got very spooked. Very, very spooked. This is a common thread here in this interview. Big tough Texan, armed to the teeth, and he was spooked.

How did that happen? Well, there were a number of things that were happening to him at the time, and that's probably one of the reasons why he wouldn't, he met with me, and he would tell him what happened. He took me into the forest. He took me to the exact location where it happened. I was like, oh, my God, this guy's testimony is golden. like this is so rare that you get to talk to somebody who stood under a UFO and examined it with a scope like whoa right i mean you don't get that many moments in your entire 30-year career i was like this guy's amazing and uh he was like the military was flying over his

with had helicopters flying over his house all hours of the morning he said he was running out in his underwear and his shotgun he was like they'd light him up like daylight spotlight. He called the local Air Force base. He said, you guys got to stop flying your, your, your, uh, helicopters over my house. And they said, that's our airspace. We'll do what we want. And we suggest you stop talking about what you saw. That's what they said to him. And I talked to the police to, I mean, that's a whole another story. I don't know. We're going to go down that whole, but it's, you can check it out. I know what I saw is out there. You can watch it. It's amazing case. Amazing case. That sounds incredible. Um, before we get into, first of all, thank

for sharing all. This is amazing. I can do this all day. I do want to eventually get into some questions. So we have interns here. We call them interns at Area 52 and they pay a monthly subscription. And we take some of their questions, which we're going to ask you in a second. But before I get to that, I got two questions to get through here. Yep. And I really want to get through these. One is a little lighthearted and one is something we touched on the top of this episode. But first is what, just for anyone out there, what TV show or movies, or movies, movie or like fictional made thing do you think, in your opinion, is the most closely related to the phenomenon?

Close with the third kind. Yeah. Yeah. And is that because of the tie-in with Heinek? Yes. And, you know, valet. Yeah, you look at those, you look at even the description of the entities, those came directly out of Project Bluewick files.

Wow. And like, you know, Spielberg's little way of saying that is having, you know, Heinek have a came a parent smoking a cigar, right, or a pipe. I think he was smoking a pipe, yeah. Yeah, during the encounter. But even down to Richard Dreyf's face being burned, those came right out of, you know, close encounter. So you had close to count of the first kind, right?

You see a UFO. Close kind of the second time. It interacts with the environment. Burn someone's face, leaves imprints to the ground, affects plant life, whatever, radar photographs. And then you got close accounts of the third kind. Well, those came directly out of, you know, he was a consultant, as was Jacques Valet, you know.

And Shockful, his character was portrayed. And you'll talk to a lot of witnesses. That's what I saw. I saw that exact orb or I saw that, you know. So those, that was the most realistic, in my opinion, to film, yeah, ever made. And again, those came right out of, I don't know about the chandelier, but pretty cool stuff. Well, the chandelier I've heard of. I have someone who's had a picture of something similar, which is interesting.

You say that. But it is interesting. be, how much do you think Spielberg knows? The guy's a fan, dude. He's, he's been putting out consistent, UFO, ET docs.

No question. No question. I actually have a letter from Spielberg that was written to Larry King about me and my movie. Whoa. Yeah. I'll get you a,

I could probably, yeah, excuse me, remind me, I can get you a copy of it. Great. So Larry King, I don't talk about this that often. I'm not to talk about it now

because I told Spielberg's publicist, I think it was naming a second, that I was planning on going public and unless I heard from him, I'm going public with it because I sat on it for 10 years. Larry King had sent a copy, a rough cut of, I know what I saw,

to Steven Spielberg, and it was like, hey, this is the real life close encounters. You should check it out. And then, a couple days later, I get a call from, what was it? I got a call from an agency informing me that Stephen Spielberg was going to watch my movie. It was kind of weird. Like, I just got this call from the agency.

It wasn't from Larry King's office. It was actually from someone at the same agency. And they were like, Mr. Fox, just wanted to inform you. This is so-and-so over it. there's a so-and-so agency that Stephen Spielberg is about to watch your movie. It was like 10 in the morning. I was like, really? Wow.

God, that's cool. So I was like, well, let me know how it goes. And I called my dad. I was like, dad, you're not going to believe that Stephen Spielberg's watching. I know what I saw it right now. This is amazing. And my dad's like, well, come on down. Let's have tea together.

So I went down to my dad's house and we had tea and we're having tea. And I'm like, Stephen Spielberg's watching my movie right now. Like, whoa, you know. And then I get a phone call like two hours later, whatever. and Cesaria, I think her name was, at the agency. And she's like, well, Stephen watched the movie. Okay, well, what happened? She said, well, he wrote a letter to Larry King.

And that was it. I said, he watched the movie. And then he wrote a letter to Larry King. She goes, yeah, I just wanted to let you know. I was like, okay, thanks. Then about a week later, I get a call, I think it was Avriel Gallagher, probably. She's like, you know, we got something for you. I was like, it came from Steven Spielberg.

I was like, oh, my gosh, tell me what, you know, we're going to FedEx it to you. So I was like, cool. Yeah, give her the address. And like a day later, the, I lived in a small town at the time. And the FedEx driver was like, James Fox, you're not going to believe this. She came right out to my door. He goes, you got a letter from Larry King.

It's a FedEx from Larry King's life. office. I was like, yeah, and guess what? It's a letter from Steven Spielberg about a UFO doc. He goes, can I watch you open it? I was like, yeah. So we sat there and I ripped the thing open. And there's a letter from Steven Spielberg talking about the movie, talking about, he goes, despite the fact that I've made so much attention to the phenomenon or, you know, UFOs, the subject matter. I unfortunately have never seen a UFO and that is so unfair. I hope that you will continue reporting, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I had a quote for, from Steven Spielberg about my movie in writing.

His handwriting, the original letter. Yeah, I have the original letter. Wow, that's so cool. Yeah, it was typed and signed. And so I contact his publicist. Can't believe I can't remember his name right now. I'm sorry. And I said, I could look it up.

And I said, hey, I've got, I said, I want to use a, oh, we don't endorse movies. I said, no, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying. I said, he already gave me the question. the quote. You have the quote? I said, yeah. He goes, well, how did you, what do you mean you have the quote? I said, well, Larry King sent me the letter. Larry King gave you the letter? I was like, yeah, and I'd like to use it to Brooke, could you imagine having a quote from Steven Spielberg back in the day on a UFO dot? Insane. Like literally, like I remember this guy that I was working with he goes, dude, that's the difference between here and the stars. Like, that'll just catapult you into the, so, so my dad goes,

well, you have the quote. Once you just use it, I was like, ooh, dad, but I don't really... You want to burn bridge? You know, and so he's like, well, we would appreciate it if you didn't use that. Wow. So I was thinking to myself, like, all the attention. Here we got this, like, fully independent in the trenches, documentary filmmaker, like, you know, doing the best he can.

And, like, your support would just beat me in the world to me. And you liked the movie, and you said it. You found it really compelling. But you won't let me use it. publicly. So anyway, I was a little disappointed. And so I don't know, maybe like 10 years went by or something like that. And I sent him a letter. I sent him an email. And we'd been corresponding a little bit. And I was like, hey, just so you know, I intend to go public with that letter, it's been 10 years. And unless I hear from you, all assume that it's okay. And I didn't hear

from him. So I published it a lot. I mean, I put it out there. I should put it out there more recently. But I'll give it to you. That is so cool. Isn't that crazy? That is amazing. And good, Good for you. I think you made the right call, not putting it out, like ethically. Yeah. You know, I think he, to much your point, I think he knows how much that's worth. Yeah. Putting his name on anything. You know what I mean? So, you know, and had he wanted to put his name on it, I think he, I think he would let you know. But I think that's, you know, it sounds to me like his way of sort of saying, hey, this is a great movie without saying, hey, this is a great movie.

Yeah. You know? The weight of his endorsement would have been game-changing. Typed and signed, like that takes effort. That's not an email. It's not a text. It's not a DM. Yep.

You know, so that goes a long way as, you know, as an aspiring filmmaker, I'm sure that inspired you to. Yeah. I have it on my wall. Yeah. Last question before we get into the intern inquiries. Just want to make sure we're rolling here. All right. At the beginning of this episode, I welcomed you into the skiff for the second time.

time. Yeah. Because you recently got invited into a skiff. Yeah. And I could say, is that the Pentagon? So I went to the Pentagon initially. It was right across the street from the Pentagon. Okay. An extension on the other side. And I had to do a 48-hour background check. And so basically, let's just say this is as much as like, because I've been asked not to reveal exactly why I went there because it could interfere with the current investigations that are having. happening, but we're both going after the same footage. And I'm helping them acquire said footage. And I will be able to talk. I'm not trying to be sneaky or secretive. I just, I can't jeopardize those contacts. And we're working together right now. And a lot of people think like,

oh, well, now you're working with some people on the inside. Well, people are people. And there's some good people and some bad people. And some people that actually legitimately want this information out. Yeah. So I'm working with. And, and, um, uh, there was an individual that I'm working with, uh, who's now on the outside, who was on the inside, and he pulled some strings and got me, got me into a skiff. With the current head of Arrow, John Kosklowski. Yeah, Kozlowski. I had to do a 48-hour background check on me,

and it was like a scene out of a movie. I remember, like, meeting up with the gentleman of just like the kind of guy that I expected the suit, the haircut, the jaw line. Like, I mean, he was like quintessential. The guy could have been, you know, if he had a dark suit on, it could have been an M-I-B almost kind of character, you know?

One day, your friend. The next day of spook. I'm sitting there walking through the halls and we go to the security and they're coming through everything I had because I was going to get a flight right afterwards. So I had all my bags and oh my God, they were going through everything. And they did a background check. How are you feeling? I was feeling a little stressed.

This is a big deal. Big deal for me, yeah. For someone who's been trying to get to the center of the maze. Yeah. But I was trying to like, so I went through the security. I was a little stressed. I was like, I don't think I have anything in my bag. They're coming through the lint.

I mean, my God, they were going through everything. I was like, I don't think I have anything. in there. I was thinking of myself, like, you know. So anyway, so we go do that, and then I get this badge. And I'll show you, yeah. So I get this badge. And then I have to go, they have these, like, glass tubes, maybe about this big around, and the door would open, and only one person goes to the glass tubes, and they had probably, like, maybe five or six all along this wall. And you'd walk up to it and this door would open, like two door open. And you'd step in with these two little feet mark and then the other one would open

and then you go through that and then I had to walk over to the... What is that? I don't know. Is he scanning you? Is that like an airport? I don't know. I don't know. I'd already gone through the metal detector. I'd already gone to that whole thing. Yeah, this might be like... Before I went through that. Whoa. So I went through that and got the other side of that and then

I was like... Excuse me, I was like, well, can I take a picture of the two? He'd go, mm-mm, no, no. Takes me over to a series of lockers where I was supposed to get rid of all my camera stuff. and, you know, phone and electron, everything. And I was like, well, can I use the bathroom real quick? And I, you know, when you use the bathroom, you know,

I had a little special pass and I documented that special path. Last second? I had to. I had to get rid of all my electronics. Then he came up just like in the movies, that big door. It looked like a bank vault almost. Whoa. And the door, he opens the door.

when we walk in and it was like kind of like an office like offices and cubicles and hallways and I was like wow I was thinking like a skiff would be more like a secured like little room with a table yeah but the whole area was a skiff like all the people that were working in error or just working in a skiff like it's one big skiff interesting and for those you don't know a secureized a security compartmentalized facility uh information facility yeah yeah there you go yep nothing works in there anyways, right? Like none of this, nothing, there's no signal entering or exiting. Yeah. So anyway, so this gentleman's walking in there. He's Air Force Office of Special Investigations. And so he walks me through this hallway and we get up to two doors in the hallway. There's a door on

the left and a door on the right. The door on the right is closed. The door on the left is open and there's like an oblong shaped table and probably two women and three men in suits, not. nicely dressed, having a meeting. And I'm stopping. He says, you wait, wait right here. I'm going to get somebody else. So I'm standing there in the hallway, and I couldn't help but to look over to my left, and I'm looking over to my left, and I'm fully eavesdropping into their conversations, right? And I'm looking at them and what else I was supposed to do, right? So I was like, kind of eavesdropping. And then they looked over at me, and this guy got up quickly and abruptly and closed the door in my face. But I was like, well, how could I not look? I mean, you know, they're having a conversation.

Skip. I was the conversation, I'm not going to ask you what they said, but was the conversation anything pertinent? Or was it just? No, I was just trying to. I was just tuning in. I was just really trying to listen. And I was, you know, I was checking it out, you know?

And the guy calls the door. And then this other guy comes up, John Kosklaowski. Yeah. And he's like, I got a few minutes. And we went into the skip. We went into his office. And this other guy from Air Force Office of Special Investigations, I guess he's part of the task force as well.

And, um, I was. start talking openly about. So this other guy was there the entire time as well. John Kusklauski was only there for... John Kosslowski, but the other guy was... The other guy was there the whole time. The whole time. John, the Air Force Office's Special Investigation guy,

was only there was there of the whole time. John was only there for maybe 10 or 15 minutes. Interesting. But because he, you know... So I started talking about specific cases. I was like, where do these men in black come from? They're... They had this omnium presence.

They're global. Like, who are they? And they didn't make any comments. I was like, I was told their Air Force Office of Special Investigation, but I don't know. And then I said, I was like, well, you guys do know that, you know, obviously the vast majority of these cases, UFO reports and UAP reports can be explained in down-to-earth conventional terms. I mean, it's like there's a residual 15 and 20 percent that clearly, after exhaustive investigation, defy a conventional explanation, and those probably originate from a non-human intelligence. I mean, you guys know that, right?

Like, come on, you've got to know that. And John looked at me and he goes, James, I can't part my own hair without approval from the DOD. And you can quote me on that. You can say we met and you can say that. I was like, he was telling me my hands are tied. Does it matter what conclusions I draw? It was amazing. That's crazy that he allowed you.

And he said to me, I didn't say, hey, can I quote you on that? He goes, you can, and you can quote, you can talk. You can say we met and you can say I said that. That's his way of telling you. Yes, that was his way of getting the word across. My hands are tied. Doesn't matter what conclusions I draw. Isn't that crazy?

That is crazy. Then I was talking about all the different cases. I was like, this case, that case. And then he had to go, and then they showed me some stuff that they were going after. Right. They showed me some information. Yeah. I got to see some stuff.

And I was like, ooh, that's not. I was like, you need to contact this witness before you release that because that's not going to go down well. And I also said, you guys got to throw us a bone. You know we're not going anywhere. This is coming out. It was amazing. I was still in touch with one of the individuals I texted this morning. Do you have a...

Thank you for sharing that, by the way. Yeah, yeah, of course. And I felt like I was there for a second. That was that cool. Yeah, so cool. You know, first of all, it's really nice to hear that, you know, part of John Kozowski telling you that because Arrow's got a bad rap. Oh, yeah.

Sean Kirkpatrick was... Exactly. And, you know, we're all kind of of the same mindset that are like, oh, this is just a big sciop, big disinformation thing. They're just going to slow leak. They know the truth. They're not letting us know. Like, this is the, this is the narrative when you hear about Arrow in the community. So to hear him sort of say, hey, I get it, but I can't do anything. Just that I feel is such a strong message that needed to be said. Yeah. So that's really important. Oh, we got one more thing. It was really cool. Okay. So John, sorry, the other gentleman, why am I? Anyway, it doesn't matter.

I wonder. I have it in my phone. And he said, you know, a little factoid, something you might want to, you know, no. I was like, what's that? He goes, your film, the phenomenon is mandatory view. And if you want to work for the UAP Task Force or Arrow, you have to watch the phenomenon first. Get out of town. Swear on my life, that's what he said to me.

Isn't that cool? Dude, that is the coolest. I was like, wow. Yeah, I know. That's better than a Spielberg endorsement in my book. It was really awesome. It was so funny too because I was like, mandatory.

I'm in the belly of the beast right now. Yeah, and you're helping to shape the narrative. It felt so like, but then I realized, like, people are people. They're good people on the inside. People that really want to get, look, and there have been. Because people go, oh, you know, they just think government. They think evil.

They think politicians. they think evil, yeah, there's some really good people on the inside. There are. Look, we have people dating back to the 1940s that wanted this stuff to come out, right? Yeah. Jesse Marcell. Yeah, the guy that ran Project Blue Book during the incursion over, during the invasion, but the two consecutive weekends in July of 1952, the guy that was head of a bluebook at the time, wrote a book about it. I mean, there are people that have been the former head of the CIA, Roscoe Hillencoder, in the 60s. Major General Blakkin on his name.

Well, John Stanford is one to give a press conference. But he gave a press conference in uniform about it. But there's another gentleman that wrote a book that was head of Project Blubica in 1952. You can look them up, and I'm just drawing a blank right now. But you've got former head of the CIA Roscoe Hill and Carter, quote in the New York Times, who talked about, you know, there have been people over the decades that have made an effort to tell the people.

It's not like they're all decided to have this excessive secrecy. And, you know, people criticize Lou Elizondo, always a deep state. It's like, okay, so all, everything that I've heard Lou say, for me, aligns with my field research. Like, even the fact that he testified under oath the other day about a crash for treatment program, people want to call that a big nothing burger. Actually, that's kind of a something burger. This guy worked at the UAP task force, atyp, a tip, and probably Ossap prior

of that, but in any case, and he's testifying under oath. There are consequences for lying under oath to a, you know, a bipartisan group of lawmakers. That was pretty phenomenal to, you were there with me. Yep. It was pretty phenomenal to witness. Yep. But I say that, like, people are people.

And there are some reasons, you know, from the decades, justification of potentially for some secrecy. I disagree with it now entirely. But maybe they were legitimately trying to figure out what the hell was going on. Yeah. You know, back in the 40s. There was a point where that was needed. Yeah, they might have.

just said, hey, let's just, hold on a second. Let's not panic the public. Let's, you know, and then the digger they dig, the digger, the deeper they dug, the more they probably were like, what hell's going on here, right? And even if you have definitive proof, bodies, crash materials, it still doesn't mean you have all the answers. And there's probably, I mean, I'll, maybe I'll pose this question to you, but for me, I do believe that there is probably some, some framework outside of the government that

really knows what's going on. Like it's... I'm told 20 people. Yeah. Okay. 20. 20. Wow.

Globally. Globally 20 people. Have a, have a bigger picture. Have the bigger picture. Yeah. And they're running it. 20. Wow.

And that came from someone I really trust. Someone I really trust. Could that be wrong? Yeah, could be. But I mean, sounds... Yeah. And that's been, I think, a lot of people's suspicion. is that whatever's happening, you know, there's a very few amount of people at the center of this

labyrinth. Yeah. A very few. There's a lot of people around the center. I heard it's a little scary, too. I bet. Yeah, what'd you hear? That's all I heard.

That it was a little scary? Yeah. But I was like, hey, even if we're someone's petoo dish, whatever. Reality is reality, right? Or, you know, is it a little scary that we don't have control over airspace? Well, I've known that for a while. Sure. If they were here to do his harm, I mean, a lot of people could argue with me and say,

abductions and no, okay, I get it. But for the most part, all the people that I've talked to that have had face-to-face encounters or really dramatic UFO encounters, like close kinds of the second kind, third kind, first kind, their intent was to harm us. It would have vaporized us decades ago. That's just, and again, people could contradict me and say that that's not what they believe. Yeah, there's different cases. Totally.

I'm just saying my, you know, Chalaris in one. Sure. But for the most part, it's fairly benight. In fact, it was really interesting. And I was like, in retrospect, I didn't, I looked back on it 10 years after the fact. I did an interview with Parviz Jafari. He was an Iranian general. And he had this dramatic UFO encounter over Tehran Iran in like 19, I want to say 75,

could have been 76, and a Phantom F-4 jet. and he tried to shoot at it. Well, it's really dramatic. I feature it, and I know what I saw. It was an incredible case. And the fact that we got him out of the States at the time when George Bush had called it the access of evil, the whole Iran.

And I was like, oh, God, no, no, he's not going to be able to get the visas to come, you know. And he was reflecting on the case years later, on camera to me. And he goes, he tried to shoot it. And it didn't end well when he tried to shoot it. Like he thought he was dead. And he goes, my biggest regret was that I didn't try to make peaceful contact.

I tried to shoot it. What would have happened had I tried to make peaceful contact? And he was really thinking hard about that one. And that's, you know, anything that we can't identify, we just immediately assume as a threat. And we take that position, you know, that position of aggression. And, yeah, that does. doesn't generally end well. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like the witness in Texas, or he had to have been a scope. And he's like, probably not a good idea.

Finger was on the trigger and he was. Yeah. I could start an intergalactic war right now. Like, what's going on? Maybe I better not do that. All right, we're going to get into some questions here from, let me turn on this camera. Got it. You got it. All right, while I go set up the camera, if you've noticed these videos aren't sponsored. And so I'm going to take this opportunity to share with you some of the things that help support this channel, including new merch. We've got these amazing Area 52 snapbacks with the embroidered logo on the front, as well as some brand new patches that you can add to your favorite jacket or shirt or whatever. I left the link in the description where you can pick them up, and thank you for the support.

All right, back to the video. This is so cool. Thank you so much for this. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've read through a bunch of it, and there's a whole bunch of really interesting, just fringe cases that you would never otherwise hear about, right? And I find that to be one of the most fascinating things. The phenomenon.

Right there. Right there. The phenomenon. Wow. Right. Long time ago, too. Yeah. What is it?

60 years ago. Wow. Anyway, as you were saying. Yeah, we'll bring in some of the questions here. Let's do it. So one of which you answered already. But here's one from our Discord moderator, Helder, Hellsand. It'll pop up here.

Cool. It says if you could travel back to any UFO event in history to witness it firsthand, which one would you choose and why? Socorro, New Mexico, 1964, April, because it involves a landing and two entities that got out of the spacecraft. And if I could, I've thought about that many times. If I could just put myself somewhere hidden, you know, and I, and I, and I, I, you know, and I, I, have witnessed that up close, the aliens getting out of the spacecraft and walking around. Oh, my gosh, that would be incredible. I mean, I thought about Varsinia Brazil, but that involved the military and their aggression

and people's lives threatened. But that encounter was very benign. Right. It was secluded. It was secluded. It was benign, remote. And if you look at the topography of the area, they actually picked a spot like down in a Royo to minimize any possibility of them being seen.

They chose a really a low point where they could land and just, you know what I mean, and just be kind of hidden. It's interesting. You look at what the phenomenon does, and then you look at what the phenomenon doesn't do, and that speaks volumes. That's a great point. Yeah. Yeah.

They're not showing up on, you know, the White House lawn. Got close, though. Yeah, but yeah, did get close. 52. Yeah. But they are showing up at schools. Yes. All right, we've got another one here.

This is, oh, no, this one we already, it's going to show up anyways, but we already got to, so we'll get to a different one. One second. I love the colors. That's so pretty. Got a few. Okay. This is a really, really good question. This is from Stan B.

And Stan says, who's the first guest or witness? you would get in front of the camera if they were allowed to break their NDA. Hal put off. Yeah, I would agree with that too. I'd love to get him the skiff. I have to be careful what I say here. But let's just say that I believe, and for reasons that I won't discuss, I believe he's a firsthand witness.

Wow. Wow. I believe that. I mean, from the interviews, he even shared in the program, you know, kind of caught me off guard, especially when he says, like, I've seen things that if I talk about, I'll go to jail. Yeah. Have you seen things that if you talk about you, go to jail? No, but I could talk about things other people might go to jail. Enough said. Yeah.

Wow. That's a lot of weight. It is. Yeah. I remember asking myself at one point, is my life better knowing these things? and on the one hand it's like be careful what you ask for you just might get it you know 30 years in the field right traveling all over the damn place like it must be nuts what's the hell you know what I mean yeah especially I was telling you last night that I've been laughed at and ridiculed for most of my adult life

can you imagine like that's why when I was watching david grush testify I'll never forget this I'm an already emotional kind of guy but I was like I was staring at my screen and my son was trying to get my attention. He wanted to go play with me outside or something. It was in the middle of the day. I had my phone and I was sitting on this little leather sofa and I was staring at it and I had tears pouring down sides of my face, just pouring down like a river for the whole time because I was like, I knew it, you know, I knew it. Damn it. I knew it. And I got laughed at it and ridiculed and made fun of and I didn't believe David Grush because it was a high level intelligence officer testifying under oath to a bipartisan group of lawmakers.

I believed him because everything he said aligned with my 30 years of research in the field. That's why I believed him. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that the level of, I can't even describe what it felt like for, I just can't. It was just, that's amazing. Tears just pouring down my face of relief.

And then, like just weight off my shoulders. You can recognize the courage too. Oh, totally. You know, of these, these men who've all come forward, even in the recent one. It's like we're quick to dismiss a lot of the information as anecdotal or secondhand. With everything to lose and nothing to gain. Yeah. It's a lot in their lives in jeopardy, their families. And remind your audience, people out there, it's so easy, it's so easy to sit on the sidelines and

criticize. And like, you know, we're all human. We try to get it right. And we have people that are making some pretty crazy allegations. And I'll be the first one to tell you, I believe, you know, you can't just believe something because a former military officer is saying it. However, it's really hard to make the decision is like, do I report on it? Do I not report it? Well, if you don't report on it, then clearly no more information is going to come out on it. You got at some point get out there and put the hook in the water and see if there's, you know. And we don't always get it right. We try to, and I certainly try to, and I would never deliberately put out anything that was disinformation. Never. No amount of money in the world.

would get me to do that. But I believe sometimes I'll believe something just enough to put it out there. And it's like, let's pray to God that other firsthand witnesses will come forward as a result of that. And that's a big part of what I reported. And now we're getting to the point where, you know, we're not just dealing with unidentified objects in the sky anymore. Now we're dealing with beans on the ground and possible hardware in a lap and biologics, as David Cross would put it. I don't like that term. I don't either.

Can we just say aliens? Yes. I don't care if they're from here. I'm still calling them aliens. They're alien to me. We call them NHI. Yeah, NHI. Non-human intelligence works, but you know what?

A dolphin is N-H-I, too. Oh, okay, good point. Do you know what I mean? Aliens is good. And let's make you a P-UFO again. Yeah, yeah, right, right, right. This is the last question here from the interns here. I can either confirm nor deny.

We'll have to say. No comment. In a secure environment only. We are in a secure environment. That's right. Anything goes here. from disco. It says, James, straight up question about UAP, UFO, Le Ovny. Lesovny. What do you think it is? What do you think it is?

Good question. And I've given this a lot of thought. And I almost called the phenomenon all of the above. That was a name that I was entertaining. I wasn't quite latched onto it, but I was like, something I thought about for a couple of weeks. And the reason being is, I was like, God, maybe it's interdimensional time travel. you know, periodic visitation, interplanetary, you know, maybe it's just all of that, right? It's a big universe. And so I thought about that. But I would say that the most, this is all speculation, but I would say informed speculation,

that the only conclusion that I've really drawn is that, and I've said this before, there's an omnipresent intelligence that has the ability to manifest itself in a multitude of ways. Like it's nuts and bolts, but it's also psychic. And they have a sense of humor at times. A lot of the people within the scientific community that I've met with had give me a number of instances where they, I was like, that's a bit of relief. They have a sense of humor. That's kind of cool.

But that it's an omnipresent. It's everywhere, right? And that it can just get some people described. like it just appeared out of nowhere, you know, or it just disappeared, like it almost disappeared in place. Like, you know, maybe, maybe they're operating in a slightly different dimension and maybe you just like a radio, you adjust the frequency a little bit and all of a sudden something appears that it's always there, but you have to adjust, you know, maybe, maybe it's that, maybe it's time travelers, maybe it's us coming back from the future, or maybe it's all the above. I honestly

don't know, but whatever it is, it's far more complex than just interplanetary visitation. No question. Great answer. All right. That was an amazing two hours. Do you remember my favorite color? Blue. Yes, but it's a dark blue.

Dark blue. Yeah, I like dark blue. Midnight blue. I was like kind of a grayish, you know. Do you mind if I, you mind if I keep you for an extra 20 after this just for the, the extra little interview? Okay.

But before we do that, if you guys want to check out anything at all, I highly encourage you to binge watch this man's, just library. Go down the rabbit hole. My personal, one of my personal favorite documentaries of all times, moment of contact. We talked about our genius stuff. If you haven't seen that, please go watch that. Go watch the phenomenon. Go watch the program. Go watch everything under the sun that James Fox has ever put out. You will not be disappointed and you will be more well informed than anyone else. And so highly encourage you guys to check that out. I'll leave James's links below, including his

his ex, his Instagram, all the above, all the above. When you say my ex, you literally? Yeah, Twitter. Yeah, I hate staying it, but I also don't want to sound like I'm not hip. Yeah, I'll leave all the links below. And if you guys want to

tune in for an extra little discussion, we're going to go deep into the skiff, and this will not be public, but it'll be available to the interns for five bucks a month. You guys know the deal. You can do all that. Join the Discord. Join the Patreon, join the memberships, join the conversation, and we'll see you guys on the next video.

James, thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. All right, we can take a little break. You want to take a little break? You want to keep steam rolling through? Let's roll. All right, we're right here.