AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - Former Counterintelligence Agent Shares WILD Alien Encounters - Richard Doty | ep. 100

Episode Date: August 21, 2026

Create Incredible Visuals with Higgsfield Cinema Studio: https://higgsfield.ai/ai-video?utm_source=youtube_s&utm_medium=area52investigations&utm_campaign=general&utm_content=in_8a8beAREA 52 Shop: https://www.area52.shopPatreon Exclusive Content: https://www.patreon.com/Area52investigationsJoin The Area52 Discord: https://discord.gg/area52Former Air Force OSI Special Agent Richard Doty sits down for a deep-dive conversation about the wildest alien encounters, crash recoveries, abductions, and classified briefings from his career in counterintelligence.In this episode, Doty details: • The multi-agency surveillance of an Air Force sergeant repeatedly abducted and tortured by non-human entities • His role in the 1977 Ellsworth AFB Mario Woods case (interrogation, medical exam, and official confirmation it was real) • Mouth/throat implants used by ETs for communication • Different ET species (hostile vs. others), anti-abduction tech developed by the intel community • The full Paul Bennewitz disinformation operation and how it was ordered • His 1980s briefing that included actual film of the Roswell (Corona) and Kingman crash sites with bodies • Sandia Labs security guard landing + beings case that got him read into the program • Captive ETs in environmental facilities, autopsies, and ongoing experiments • Pilot abduction with Polaroid evidence, Nellis Range ET-on-the-road incident, time-travel/portal experiments at Sandia & Nevada Test Site, the “yellow book” widget, and more • Space Force recruitment attempts, FOIA redactions case files, and why he still gets contacted by OSI/FBIDoty also shares two truths and a lie, plus how he wants to be remembered after decades of service and disclosure efforts.This is one of the most detailed on-the-record accounts from a former AFOSI counterintelligence officer who was briefed into multiple Special Access Programs involving non-human intelligence.

The one thing that convinced me beyond anything else that I had access to was listening to this Air Force sergeant, female, who was abducted countless times, went through literally tortured by these extraterrestrials, having marks on her hands. He took her fingernails off or toenails off, bleeding from the eye, ruptured her eardrum once. And then a lot of things that we did

in a surveillance capacity to confirm what she says, that convinced me that there are, they weren't humans doing this to her. You surveilled it? We set up a surveillance, and that's about all I can say. She lived in a two-story, a real small apartment, and her bedroom was upstairs,

and we knew, that she would be taken during a time period. So this is a multi-pronged, multifaceted, multi-departmented sting operation in order to capture this. Yes, that was successful. There were some that weren't, but that was successful. That's a fact, and she's a whistleblower. And she would be the number one person I would put in front of a camera

if I was a member of Congress. Whoa. A mentality regarding, they can't be hostile. They're all benevolent. It's absolutely out the window. Are they on here? Yeah, they're on here. I'm going to show you something.

Okay. Is that like it something you've seen before? I can't say. I think you just did. I've had several strange experiences in my life potentially related to ET phenomena, but this story is in regards to levitation. When I was nine or ten years old, I was walking home from a friend's house. As I would sometimes do, I decided to run as fast as I could and jump as far as I could.

I did two jumps, both of which I measured from where I landed, back to the stop sign that was my jumping off point. They were maybe five to ten feet. I decided to do one more, went back a ways, and ran towards the stop sign. As I jumped, I suddenly became aware that the air seemed very silent. I also had a strong experience of weightlessness and extreme forward momentum, more than the last two jumps. I came down at a dead stop on both feet, feeling almost zero gravitational influence. Tracing my steps back to the stop sign, I counted over 30 steps.

Within moments, I heard crickets, cars in the distance, lawn sprinklers, all of which had faded away while I was in the air. I tried hundreds and hundreds more times. I never even came close to the same distance. And it wasn't a dream because I told my mom when I got home. She didn't believe me but remembered me telling her when I asked about it later. I don't know. It's a big weird world.

Ladies and gentlemen, today we are joined by another than Richard Doty, former AFOSI officer. You've got quite the history. Good sir. You've got a lot in your past in terms of euphology and your relationship to it, whether it's in a formal capacity or an informal capacity, whether that's a hobby or a job. Your name is pretty, you know, I would say pretty prominent in this topic.

So I first of all want to thank you for joining me today. Thank you. Good be here, Chris. Yeah. For those people out there wondering, you know, who I'm sitting with, they might be familiar with you. They might have seen your face somewhere, whether that's ancient aliens, whether that's a Netflix documentary or even some other documentaries that have come out in the past. You're a recognizable figure to those of us who know about the UFO topic. But to those who don't, how would you introduce yourself?

Well, I'm a former Air Force OSI Special Agent, counterintelligence officer within Air Force Office Special Investigations. And I started that career back in the 70s. I worked in some controversy issues, primarily the Paul Benowitz case. A lot of the UFO historians, know about that case, whether they want to criticize me for it, for what I did in it, but I did it in accordance with military regulations.

And I worked in the intelligence community up until 1988. From there, I left the government service. I worked for the state of New Mexico for a while, and then I worked for Dr. Pothoff at the Institute for advanced studies for 12 years. And then sometime in the mid, probably 2010 or 2015, I started coming on programs and talking about what I did

during my time in counterintelligence. And then in 2018, I was hired by Guyah, and I have over 220 episodes on Gaia. I also have about 18 episodes of the Doty Chronicles. I've been on ancient aliens, a number of different other UFO programs, talking about my past experience in the subject of UFOs or investigating them.

So that's who I am, and that's what I've done in the past. Thank you so much for that. Incredible pedigree. There's a lot there. There's a really colorful history across these last, I would say, almost 40 years. You, I want to start somewhere because we had a guest on recently, Mario Woods, who you're familiar with, who you've actually met for the first time in 1977. Yes. You know, and it wouldn't be until decades later that that would be brought up again.

And Mario was a guest here just a few short weeks ago. And we actually tried to get you and Mario together, and it didn't work out timing-wise. But Mario had a really interesting encounter, to say the least, not only with what appear to be a giant craft, but also the beings aboard that craft. And then afterwards was subsequently debriefed for like five hours and interrogated. and he had to, you know, write down exactly what happened and all of this. But during that process, there was a sort of medical exam or sort of physical examination that took place by OSI officers, namely yourself and someone else. And you, if I'm not mistaken, were that you were just coming into that sort of space, if I'm not mistaken, that would have been quite new for you? Yes, I was on a temporary assignment to Ellsworth Air Force Base.

something entirely different. It was an espionage investigation. And while I was at the OSI office, Mario, the incident with Mario occurred. And I was asked by the chief of the detachment commander at Ellsworth, a guy by name of John Brisboy, to go to the base hospital and pick up records for a Mario Woods, Sergeant Mario Woods. So I did. I went there. I brought him back. When I brought him back to the OSI office, Mario was there.

I walked into the interview room to give the medical files to Jack Green, who was the OSI agent investigating this incident. And I stood there in the room while they were talking to Mario before this I had no idea what the incident happened. But as I listened to this, I became more intrigued by it. And so I was, I probably stayed in there 45 minutes or so.

I don't know exact time. I left and I had to do some other things. And then I had to go and do what I was there to do. But I came back and they still had Mario in there. Now, my timeline, I think, it would have been probably about 10 hours of interrogation. Oh, wow. Rather than a four or five, because when I came back, now, there might have been a break in

between, but they were still going after. I mean, they weren't going after him, but they were interrogating. There's a difference real quickly in counterintelligence or in any type of investigation, whether it's criminal or espionage or anything else. you interview, you can be doing an interview or you can be doing an interrogation. They're different. An interview with just obtaining the information, relaxing the target, the person that you're interviewing. Interrogating is you're trying to force that person to give you information that they don't want to give you.

Or they might not remember it. And when I, the second time I went there, they were interrogating. Mario. They were grilling him. They were grilling him on what he did or what he saw. And apparently at some other time, they had the second Air Force Security policeman who was with Mario, because it was two of him in the pickup truck. And they had him in another room. I never went in the other room, so I'm not sure what they did or how they interviewed him. But I saw them interrogating Mario. And based on what I remember then, and jump ahead, you know, 40 some years, what Mario said and what happened is factual, factual, because the OSI report later, which was classified, considered it an actual incident. Really? Yeah. You had access to that, obviously.

I had access to that, yeah. And I've had conversations with Mario. I've been on some other podcasts with him, and I believe everything he says. He might have got some things or not wrong, but he might have forgotten some things because there was a time period that he might have had a missing time link in when the incident first happened. In six hours. Yeah, exactly.

I thought it was more than that, but it was six hours. And so what happened during that time period? You know, only the aliens know. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, them and perhaps Michael Johnson as well, who did you meet with him? Were you debriefing him as well? Were they interrogating Michael Johnson at the same time?

Michael Johnson was in another room. I never had access to Michael Johnson. At that point, he was like catatonic as well. He wasn't really. Well, as I understood, he had been in the hospital. They had transferred. Somebody went over. That wasn't me.

Somebody went to the base hospital and picked him up and brought him to the OSI office. I don't know if it was an agent or the ambulance or who would. I think it might have been their supervisors, the security police, the 44th missile security squadron was within. And I think it was somebody within that squadron, a captain or somebody brought him there. But again, I didn't have any contact with Michael Johnson, only Mario. And during this time, Mario had also said that he was in, and I believe, if I'm not mistaken, this was done by the OSI officer, that they felt around his mouth. Do you remember him saying this?

Yes. And that they were looking for something in his mouth. They spent a substantial amount of time, several minutes, feeling around the inside of his mouth. Can you tell me why that is? As I understood, he had, when he was examined at the base hospital, he was examined first by the emergency your own physician who I don't remember what his specialty that was but normally it's just a general practitioner and then um he said something to them at the hospital that OSI was interested in of of what his voice how his voice changed and I think that's why again I wasn't there and I can't say

for a fact but I believe they thought he might have had something implanted into his mouth or his throat And that's why they checked it first at the emergency room. And I believe later there was a maybe a specialist, I near ears and throat doctor that saw him. But the OSI office, they were looking for something in his throat that might have been implanted in there. That's what I got out of it. Implanted by whom?

By whoever took him, maybe the extraterrestrials. I know. Is that par for the course? Is that something that they've run in? into before. That's why they were checking it out. Now, let me go back a little bit. Sure. During this time period, I was not briefed in any special programs. No, this is before.

This is way before, two years before. So I had no idea about any of this, about abductions or about implants or anything like that. Years later, when I was briefed into everything, I realized that the extra-travelings, There were occasions where, or incidents, where they had placed something in the body, the mouth, the throat, the nose, in order for the extraterrestrials to better communicate with the human. Now, I don't know how that worked. There are specialists, Dr. Green and others can explain that. I'm not a doctor, so I can't explain why or how they did that. But I know that there were at least two cases that I know of.

A woman that had had an abduction, an Air Force, a sergeant, she was in the Air Force. She was abducted, and they had placed something under her tongue. And this was done during your time serving? Do we have her name or is that currently? That's pretty much class. She's a whistleblower right now listed in Congress. So if she comes out and speaks, well, no. Yeah, and there's going to be an awakening, so to speak,

and the difference between a friendly extraterrestrial and a non-friendly extraterrestrial. Because she went through the horrors of abductions from an hostile. an extraterrestrial. Really? Is, do you think that that is, I want to talk more about this a little bit later, but do you think that that is perhaps her perception due to this forceful sort of kidnapping that one would make a being who might be neutral seem sort of more malevolent because of the nature of, you know, we're looking at something from another world,

looks menacing, you know, they're perhaps pinning her down. We don't know the real reason. Why this would happen? Do you think that there's a, because when someone says hostile, but then has a chip implanted and is let go, you know, like we are also hostile to dolphins, but that doesn't mean we want to kill the dolphins and take over the dolphin world and like, you know, you know what I mean? And so do you think that might just be her interpretation of event? It could very well be because, number one, we have no idea what these extraterrestrial's intent is in abducting a human being to get information or to get DNA or to get samples of their fluids or whatever. So they're alien to us and we're alien to them. They might have to use

techniques that we can't even imagine to get information from a human. And so you're right, that could very well be. That's just the way they operate. Now, she's alive. They didn't kill her. She's recovered. But so, but her case, what stands us out to me is her case has been thoroughly, I mean thoroughly, thoroughly, thoroughly investigated by the government, not just AFOSI, but by other agencies within the government. What other agencies? The intelligence community.

I'll just leave it at that. There were techniques, because of her abductions, there were techniques developed from her abductions that were collected by U.S. intelligence that I can't talk about. that can prove her case.

Wait, so there are certain things that happen to her that they now use to see if other cases are legitimate? Absolutely. Does that have to do with like physical markings? Yes, that and some trace, traits that I've got to be very careful here, the traits that the abductee shows that can be traced to something else. And based on that, there was something developed by the intelligence community. Number one, determine whether the person is actually telling the truth. And number two, and the counterpart of that is protecting the target.

And that was developed years later. It wasn't developed during her time, but based on what she went through, the intelligence community and contractors developed something that can protect a human from a particular type of abduction from a particular extraterrestrials. Now, you got to understand this. One of the main problems the public has is that they group all extraterrestrials into one. group, one, one category. You can't do that. During my time, I knew of, and I have him here, a list of them, of, of, the extraterrestrials that we knew existed, that we had contact with. Okay. And so they're all different. Number one, they're all different biologics. They come from different planets. Their body structure.

are entirely different. So you can't group, their brains are different. So you can't group all extraterrestrials into one category. That's why when we talk about an abduction of a human by an extraterrestrial,

it depends on what extraterrestrial's doing that, and what they're gathering and how they're doing it and what type of thoughts or what type of techniques or gadgets they're putting into those humans. So when the government creates something to counter it,

it's only going to work on that particular extraterrestrial. It's not going to work on anyone else. Then again, I can't go into great details because I knew some more information about this, but there's a lot of like other species. Yeah, other species. And a lot has been developed beyond. my time and I don't want to go into anything that might disclose something and I'm supposed to talk about. So I'll just leave it at that. Sure. I mean, super interesting that

there's protocol on a sort of anti-abduction process. Well, when I was working on a Merna Hansen case and you know who Merna Hansen is, that's part of the Paul Benowitz case, when, when, when, um, Leo Sprinkle and Alan Heineck brought her to us. I had no idea anything about abductions. I didn't know that they were real. I wasn't ever briefed into it. I did a report in Senate to headquarters. And a week or so later, two DIA agents came down to Kerrtleon to the OSI office.

I was told that, hey, two visitors out here want to see me. You know, they were cleared. I brought him in. they said, yeah, we want to talk about the Merna Hansen case. And I said, okay, I said, who are you guys? What branch are you with? And he, one of them tells me, we're with this particular branch. I said, what is that involved? He said, abductions. We investigate abductions. And I said, the DIA has a branch that investigates alien abductions. He said, yeah. The DIA. So I knew then, he said, you mean you're not briefed into this particular

or special access program. I said, no. Well, I got briefed into it. And then I realized that this has been going on for years. And take it very seriously. This is 1980. And these guys are taking us seriously. And this unit within DIA has been around for years.

Now, DIA, remember when he came in existence in 1961. So I thought, I didn't say anything to them, but my curiosity is, wait a minute, these things must be real then because I didn't think that Mernay. I mean, I interviewed Mernah Hansen, but I just thought she was if she was psychologically unstable or something. Sure. I mean, the DIA is also known to be involved in like a lot of trippy subjects,

including Stargate, including, you know, taking on all of the work at SRI that they were doing and that type of thing. Do you think that a lot of that, is still within the DIA specifically, or has that been also sort of branched out into contractor hints? I think that it's being still controlled by DIA, but I feel that it's been contracted out. Yeah. Most things have been, I would assume, yes. For, you know, to remove yourself for any plausible deniability that the government might want or should want in these scenarios.

which does bring a question to mine as well. So when you were working on the Paul Benowitz case, first of all, the decision to sort of implement misinformation or inject information in a counterintelligence capacity due to, you know, seeing advanced tech and covering that up, how was that decision given to you? Were you brought in a room and briefed? Were you given, was this in writing? Was this verbally? How was that given to you to take care of this?

Anytime there's an operation or a project within OSI or intelligence community, there has to be an operational plan. When the case first opened, the Paul Benowitz case first opened, I would do a report and send it to headquarters, and it would go through CIA to DIA. And then they would send back a operations plan or a list of things that I need to do to prepare an operations plan

or to get more information. And in particular Paul Benno's case, they sent back and saying, you need to do this, this, this, this, and this. And what was this, this, this, this, and this? Go out and get more information on him, find out neighbors, do what we call a local agency check. And I did all those things. There was probably 10 things I did.

I did a report, sent it back up there. And then we got on the phone, we call a KY3 phone, as a secure phone system, where we discussed the case between me, my boss, and headquarters. And they decided, okay, we need to do this operational plan, which was developed up there, set to me, and here's what I had to do. And the plan was followed. And so the disinformation or the misinformation was all planned at headquarters. That's what they told me to do. I was told to do. Sure. And so that's how that goes. So was that stuff, did it feel to you like they had done that before? Oh, I know they've done it before because I've been involved in other operations where they'd done it. Yeah. I see.

So this was kind of protocol on how to deal with this scenario. Now, was that to deal? Was that only for people who saw sort of technical advanced vehicle testing? Was that like the protocol? Or was there more than one protocol to deal with that? Was there a story, a script that you guys had to follow? I'm very curious about how you guys went about, okay, somebody reports a citing. Do you instantly go into, okay, we investigate this and then if it was us doing advanced tech stuff, then we have this cover story that we go in with? Or was every case taken case by case? Like, how was that filtered? Every case was different. Yeah. It depends on who did, who saw it. the target we call, and what the circumstances were behind their sighting. And Paul's case, he was taking pictures of something that was flying over the base.

And it was a highly classified program, a drone program. It was the Air Force's drone program that was in its infancy stage. and the way they tested these drones was they would fly a plane. It could be a C-130, which is propeller-driven, or a RC-135 or R-C-137, which were like a 707. They would launch these drones from the plane, and it would be a controller, controlling, but the plane had to be in close proximity to these drones.

Well, Paul was taking pictures of these objects flying around this aircraft, aircraft, these aircrafts, and he assumed that there were UFOs, there were extraterrestrials. And so it was, so the, in order for him to not become involved in the classified program, we had to convince Paul that, yeah, he was seeing UFOs. But it seems like he was already convinced of that. Like, why not just let him believe it was UFOs and ignore it entirely? Well, we did. I would go in and number one, Paul was involved in App Pro, which, as you know, what that was.

He was an investigator, field investigator for App Pro. The infancy stage of Mufon was there. He was a believer in UFOs. He's had an experience with a UFO on a picnic once with his family. So he was a believer. And so when I went in to talk to him and he told me, what he did and what he saw. And he was trying to convince me they were UFOs.

All I had to do is say, you know what? I think they are. I think they are flying saucers. He would use the word flying saucers, not UFOs. And that's it. That's all I had to do. I didn't have to sit there and interrogate him or brainwash him or anything like that. He was already a believer and it was very simple to just agree with him.

Yeah. And to do the opposite. would have been going against direct orders. Exactly. Hmm. Yeah, that's an interesting position to find yourself in. At what stage during your career was that particular incident beginning? How many years in?

About three and a half or four years in. And how many cases had you covered similarly before that? UFO related. in 1979 we had a case early 80s late 79 to early 80s we had a case currently involving a sighting in a highly classified area of the base a Sandia National Laboratory security guard now Sandy was a contractor on the base the security guard of surveying had an encounter with the UFO landed on the base I was a case of the case I was a case agent that went out there, investigated that. Before this, I was not briefed in anything to do with

UFOs. So I took the report, I investigated it, I came back to the office, I submitted a report through my, through my boss to headquarters. Headquarters came back and said, I need to be briefed into this particular program. And not, it's called 9Q. So my boss says, you need to go, we're going to get your briefing. You're going to need to go over to the Air Force Special Security Office, which is on the west side of Curtland Air Force Base, and get a briefing. I said, okay.

And now, I've done that before on other matters, but nothing to do with UFOs on espionage or something other. So I did. I went over there. I sat and went in a room. There was some other people. A colonel, Air Force colonel, and a civilian briefed us on the United States.

United States government involvement with the investigation of contact with the with extraterrestrials from 1947. And that's the briefing. It lasted several hours. They showed us film. They showed us some documents. We took it all in. You say we, how many people were there?

I don't remember exactly 10 maybe. Not OSI agents. Right. I was the only OSI agent in their room. The other people in the room were. intelligence people or some other people that had a need to know. Were the other people in the room, were some of them also civilians? Like were these academic types or contractors?

There's no shortage of creativity on this channel, as you've probably noticed. We churn out some of the highest quality productions in terms of podcast weekly. And it is fun, but it's also a grind. And we don't always have time to attain that Spielberg-esque level of production on a weekly basis. It's nearly impossible. But we do manage, and that is partially due to the help of Higgs Field Cinema Studio. So we use Higgs Field in pretty much every single production that we do, and whether it's really subtle things or whether it's recreating something. But you can also use Higgs Field in very creative ways.

Like, I can have it rain in my studio right now. Or I could teleport myself into a UFO. There is no shortage of ideas. It really is limited only by your imagination. And if you want to check out how to use Higgs Field or if you're curious to I'll let the link in the description. Thank you to Higgs Field for sponsoring this video. Some of them were contractors, Sandy International Laboratories,

a couple of them were with Department of Energy. I think there were some civilian scientists within the Air Force weapons laboratory there. I'm just guessing because I don't know exactly. But I was the only OSI agent. Anybody with like longer hair than they should have? Yes. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, they would hire some, some kooky scientists back then. Yeah. And all sorts of trippy folk looking into this stuff. But so you're given this briefing. This is really fascinating. Now, in this briefing, you mentioned, okay, there's footage, there's photos, there's documents. Did you ever get the sense as someone who's never stepped foot into this that this has got to be baloney?

Like what they're telling me here, this can't be real. Did you or anyone in the room get that sense or were you all just kind of taken aback of what you were seeing? Well, I had no conversations with anybody else during this briefing. And we had a break period too. It was several hours. But we never had any briefing because it was classified. We left to go to break room. It's unclassified area.

You can't talk about classified information. We were not going to skiff when this briefing occurred. But yes, absolutely, because after this briefing was over with, I had to drive from there back over to the OSI office, which was on the east side of Curtland Air Force Base, seven, eight miles. I pulled into a parking lot of some unit on base and sat there and trying to digest what I just heard. My skepticism was way up here.

I thought, is this a psychological operation they're pulling on us? You thought that. Oh, absolutely. I was, in fact, I was always somewhat of a skeptic in the subject because growing up, my brother was a UFO. Now, I didn't believe any of that stuff. But even in a regular Air Force, when I was wearing a uniform in the irregular Air Force, there was occasions of people talking about the subject. I would not believe anything they were talking about.

Jump ahead to sitting in that parking lot, I thought, this can't be real. I mean, the crash in Roswell, a crash at Kingman, we saw a film of a crash site. It's all made up. So I get back to the office. Before we get back to the office, that film on the crash site,

can you elaborate a little bit, which crash site? It was the Roswell crash site. That was the Roswell crash, the one in Corona. The one in Corona. It showed the craft. It showed bodies outside the craft like on a dirt mound. And it showed a recovery area where there were tents, military tents set up. There were military personnel in uniform, Army uniforms.

This is 47. Air Force hadn't existed. quite yet. There were debris that they apparently had taken out of the craft and set on tables. There was a narrator.

None of the people in the movie or film were talking. There was a narrator, an army or a military officer narrating what we were seeing. obviously that narrator wasn't there I'm sorry was something that was added later sure yeah but it was a look to me like a legitimate film

the beginning of the film showed it was classified and so that's that's what the film was now they also showed a second recovery site in kingman Arizona and I think it was 53 yeah and they showed it the craft and he showed two bodies. Similar bodies? No, they were different. They looked different. And recovery. Now, in 53, there were Air Force personnel all around. The recovery truck said the United States Air Force on that. And so that's some of what I can remember in the film. How are you allowed to talk about this? It's all unclassified now. That's unclassified? That is unclassified.

So what happened to the footage? Good question. Where's the footage? I mean, if it's unclassified. Congress wants that footage. The Air Force gave him some things, but didn't give him everything. Now, I would love to know what all that footage is. And that's just two of probably 40 or 50 different crash sites that we know about. Really? Yes. Could we, as, I mean, there's probably been several attempts to FOIA that briefing or those documents that were available in that briefing.

how much success of people found in trying to retrieve some of that, what you saw? I tried. Yeah. I tried myself. And I got the, they can't confirm an existence or non-existence of the material that I requested. So it's not going to be released because it's, but I've talked about it. Many other people have talked about it. My NDA expired in 2002.

I started talking about it after 2002. there were only during during 2002 and 2020 today as we talk in 2026 there's been two occasions where I've been visited by FBI agents who told me that I said something on camera that I shouldn't have said and I knew at the time I actually knew that I shouldn't have said what I was saying because it was still a special access program in SAP yeah but I said it and I said it and And I tried to work around what I said. And I did, I did, I did a poor job of that. And then the second time, it was a document that I'd given to somebody that had some classified information on it. And I can assure you that stuff isn't. That's been out on the Internet for years that I shouldn't have given them. They're that quick to pick up on it.

Oh. Fine tooth combing, everything, like this interview will be under scrutiny, you believe. Absolutely. Every single episode I've done for Gaia. And only at the beginning, when I first started working at Gaia, the first probably 10 episodes, nothing. The 11th episode, we talked about something and I did. Epi didn't come, but OSI contacted me by phone. and I knew the guy. He was a, he was a, uh, he was a, uh, civilian.

We had a, well, civilians in OSI, you know, we, and he went, he left OSI and came back as a contractor, which, and within intelligence community, it happens all the time. Sure. And you're never fully out. Exactly. And he called me and he said, Richard, how you doing? I saw your episode on Gaia and, uh, I want to ask you a few questions. And I said, yeah, what do you need?

He said, why the hell did you mention this, this, and this? I said, it's unclassified. He said, no, it's still classified. I said, it is? He said, yeah. I said, well, I assumed, he said, you don't ever assume, because, you know, assume you make a, you know, and I said, okay, well, I guess I'm going to get visited. I never was visited. And this was in 2018, probably, yeah, early, or late 2018, nobody ever visited me.

So I assumed it's not classified anymore. I saw him at a UFO convention a year later, 2019 at, what was he doing there? They're always there. In fact, in that particular one, which one was it? 2019 at Loughlin.

Okay. There were three uniform Air Force officers in the audience. Uniform? Yeah, they were in uniforms. What's that about? Well. Is that for show? For show, I guess.

Or they were trying to. to intimidate the crowd. I don't know. But I didn't notice him right off the bat, but one of the, I think it was Robert Dean, because Wendell was dead by that time, but Robert Dean was there. And Robert Dean came up and he said, hey, what's with the blue suitors out there? I said, what do you mean? He said, there's two captains and a senior master sergeant out there.

I said, okay. So I saw him. I went up to him. I'm a blonde guy, you know. I come up to and I said, hey, I'm Richard Doty. And they said, well, we know who you are. I said, you guys here on business? The captain was the one that was speaking, the female captain.

And I never knew. I didn't know her before this. And she said, you know, we're here just interested in the subject. Is there a problem? I said, no, absolutely not. You're more than welcome, whatever you want. Because there's no classification in this briefing. She says, we'll decide on that later.

Wow. Which I thought was very interesting. Well, I went over and immediately told George Knapp. I said, George, look out there. He said, I saw him. Who are they? Are they you guys? I said, I don't know who they are.

They just said they're from the Air Force. They won't say office. But I think you ought to go up there, George. and ask him for an interview. And I don't know if George did, but I don't think it worked. I did have an interview with George there, and I knew one of them was standing back watching me at the interview. And they were there for my presentation, and, you know, I don't care.

They left. They didn't stay the whole time. They probably were there three or four days, two, three days. It's still a wild thing to show up at, dressed in uniform. I mean, that clearly signals an intention. And an interest, you know, they gave away. A public interest. A public interest.

They gave away the fact that the Air Force is interested in what was being said at a UFO convention. And what was your talk about? I think that I talked about Area 51. I think that was a, you know, I do PowerPoint. That would make sense. And Area 51. And I didn't give away any classified. I mean, afterwards, there were a lot of questions asked of me that I couldn't answer.

Yeah. You know, because there was projects out there that I was involved with that I can't talk about now. I mean, there were probably right offhand five that I'm not going to talk about, and I will never talk about. How many special access programs have you been briefed on? Oh, God. There's different types of briefings. There's a full briefing and limited briefing, and then there's a full briefing and limited briefing, and then there's access only.

It's called access only briefings. Fully briefed probably maybe 20 and again, you know, don't hold me to that. Partial briefings, I don't know because I would be working on something and an OSIGA would be working on something and he needed help on so he would come to me and give me a partial briefing and I would help him with that. Access briefing is when it happened right now. Like you accidentally saw something and they had to brief you in. Or you're the on-call counterintelligence officer like Area 51.

And they call you and say, hey, we got a, we got a, and they give codes. And I can't give it the codes because I think some of them are still classified. They give you a code over the phone. Well, you know what that code means. The code, like purple red, I'm just making up something. This isn't really one. Purple red. There's a purple red at such and such.

Okay, now I know that's emergency. You know, I'll get my little book out and look, okay, I've got to get going to that. And I have to get another agent to go with me. So I have to give him limited briefing. Well, I don't even know what I'm getting to. This is an access. So we get out there and we find a crash site. I'm making this up, okay?

Yeah. A crash site. And there's aliens all over the place. And there's toxic materials all over the place. So I have a checklist and now there's a checklist. And so you think about this. If there's a checklist for what I'm going to, this is obviously happened in the past. So are you referring to the Psalm 1 briefing?

No. The manual, the special operations protocol manual? Something like that. Something like that. Okay. Something akin to that. Something akin to. Okay.

So to get back to you're in this parking lot. you've just had this mind-blowing briefing. And now you're on your way to, I guess, meet a witness who's a security guard at Sandia National Labs. No, no, no, no, no, no. That was later. Yeah, right. But when I got the briefing, I went back to the office. Oh, I see.

And I went into my boss's office, John. And I said, he laughed. He's just kind of smiled. He said, what do you think? I said, is any of that, I use the assword. Any of that shit real? He says, yeah. I said, come on, John, this is a psychological operation against me.

And he said, no, it's real. All that stuff is real. And again, I, you know, okay, I got a job to do. Yeah. Okay. All right, you say it's real? I in my mind it's bullshit yeah you know so I then I go and re-interview the witness in Sandia the Sandia guard and he explains all this stuff to me tells me what happened tells me that his

you know the the radio and his patrol vehicle the engine shut off and all these things same thing I heard in some briefings I thought and the description of the craft Saucer-like? Saucer-shaped. And I thought, hmm, so I have to do a report and I have to investigate this. And so I invest, and then I go to the people on the base to try to see if, like, the air traffic controllers,

the radar approach control, did they have anything coming in during that time period? Yes. What did they have on radar? They had something unknown, unknown blitch. Okay, the verified. what his information is, what time period, this period. Then...

It was a landing, by the way? It was a landing. Were there beings? There were beings. Okay, what happened is there's an alarm structure, an alarm meaning there's an alarm on it, a structure in this classified area, okay? And this security guard had to go out and check this area, and this alarm went off, So he had to go out to investigate that, you know, why did this alarm go off?

And this gets more complicated as I talk. And we'll talk about Merna Hansen relating in conjunction with this later. But he had to go out and find out. When he got out there, he sees this flying saucer. And he's, is his words, hovering over this bunker. And it's a bunker that's built into the, the ground. And right off to explain what this means is there's a bunker, this bunker in an experimental bunker to house nuclear weapons. And what it is is you open the blast doors,

there's a, there's a platform, an elevator that goes down 60 feet. So they would store the weapon here, put it on a platform, put it down 60 feet. So if a terrorist or the enemy breaks into the bunker, there's nothing in there because it's on the ground. And that's kind of like, that was classified. It's not classified anymore. So that's the bunker that he's, that he went out to check on. He sees a flying saucer above it. It lands. When it lands, his engine shuts off. His mobile radio and his portable radio wouldn't work. No electricity. And then we actually know why that happens. And so he gets out of his patrol vehicle. He gets a shot. He has a shotgun and a hand and a side arm, but he gets a shotgun out of the the vehicle.

And these two entities, as he calls him, gets out of this craft and they're in suits. They have helmets on metal, silvery suits. Their arms were disproportionate to their body. They have like heavy boots on. They have some kind of contraptions in both their hands. and they turned and went to the front of the bunker. Well, he's a security guard. He has a job to do.

He chambers around in a shotgun because the policy is he can't have a live round in the chamber. So he chamber, and there's a 12-gauge shotgun. He chambers around. They hear, apparently, they hear that. And the weapon is taken out of his hand. He says it's taken out of his hand.

it's dropped to the ground. He doesn't, he never could explain to me how that happened. It just got out of his hand. And that's his words, got out of my hands. They don't know what to do. Then he went before his sidearm, but he couldn't get it out of the holster. This thing then, the two entities turned around,

came back to the craft, got into craft, and it took off. Was the craft like one of those seamless platforms that comes out of the structure and then returns? or he could never explain how they came out of what they came out of. I see. And we mean put him under hypnosis and all he said was they came out of the craft. He doesn't know if the, if a platform fell, he could never explain that.

You, you hypnotized him. Yeah. That was that protocol? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We have psychologists to put him to hypnosis. Yes. Did you guys ever resort to, um, inoculating? or using chemicals on people through interrogations? I don't think I can talk about that. Okay. Fair enough. So this is your first foray other than Mario Woods happening

where you were not briefed into any of this and thought that was just maybe crazy. This is your first foray into someone claiming, and then I assume this person seemed legitimate and sincere? Oh, absolutely. He was. And he, a former army, he was in the army before. He, I believe he was an MP.

He worked around helicopters, so he knew that this wasn't a helicopter. He never seen anything like this before. He'd been working for Sandia for, I think 12 or 14 years, unblemished record. PRP, probably as well. Yeah, personal reliability program. he worked in a highly classified area before he went out on patrol which required it was a special access program so he had to have a special

security clearance he had all the tickets punched we gave him a polygraph which was also pretty standard passed no deception indicated so that helped me blend more into understanding the phenomena of UFOs. So what do you tell him? Do you, like, because when someone sees military attack, you tell them it's aliens. What happens when someone sees aliens? Do you tell them it's military?

Well, there was another agent, a senior agent involved also would be. When I took the initial report, did the initial investigation, did all the reports in send him up to headquarters. The senior agent then became involved in that. And he somewhat took over that. Now, what he told them, or him, would have had to been in line with what he already had a security clearance for. Remember, Paul Benowitz didn't have a security clearance.

Sure. He had an industrial security contract because he did have a contract with the government making parts for weapons systems. but this guy had a security clearance. He had all the tickets punched. He worked in a special access program that involved alien technology or examining them.

Really? He guarded those areas. So it was difficult to tell him what he saw was government because he wouldn't have believed it. So there are other ways of covering that. You would make him sign an NDA or read him in.

Read him in. And that's what I believe. Again, the senior agent handled it. Yeah, you don't know exactly what happened. I wasn't involved in that, right? Exactly. There's no. So, yeah, when you're briefed at a certain level, you're not gaslighting these people.

You're probably more likely to bring them closer. Exactly. Yeah. If a pilot, and I had these happened, an A7 jet pilot, Air Force pilot, a National Guard, it was Air National Guard, New Mexico Air National Guard, had an incident where he had contact in the air and on the ground, I handled the whole case, but I couldn't tell him that it was an Air Force.

He knew. So what did you tell him? I told him he probably encountered a real thing, you know. Although it just went away and, you know, he wanted to get back on flying status because it's something like that happened. They take you off flying status, you know. And so he, he didn't want to,

So I said, you need to sign something that you promise you'll never talk about it. Okay, I'll sign it. You want to get back up in the air. Yeah, that's the thing about pilots specifically where it's pretty sensitive in terms of reporting. And even like personal mental health or anything like that just like takes you out of the sky. So when something happens, let's say, because you've obviously with Paul, with the Paul Benowitz case, you know, you had to. to keep him going and saying, hey, this is, yeah, you're right, it is aliens or whatever, so that you would detract him from what really was going on in the base.

But when things are of potential alien origin, do you sometimes tell them that it's just advanced tech when a civilian is reporting something like that? Absolutely. Yeah. So would you, would it be safe to assume from a civilian's point of view that the Air Force Office of Special Investors, investigations is essentially what they refer to as the men in black from a civilian point of view? Yeah. In a way, yeah. But the men in black is something entirely different. Within government structures. Within the government structure. We had a unit within a 760 second year intelligence wing at Fort Belvoir. They were the dirty tricks people. Okay. And they didn't. going to go out and kill people or anything like that. But they're the ones, if we OSI couldn't convince

somebody or if we needed something that we couldn't get, we'd bring in these people. And these were the bunch of, we call them the thugs. I mean, they were the knuckle-draggers. They were the guys that would, the military recruited out of someplace else that didn't have the unblemish records. They They didn't, they weren't the Harvard grads or the Dartmouth grads. They were a ragtag bunch. Ragtang probably played football or soccer or rugby. And these guys had been in a ballroom baralls. And they're the type of guys that did things off the record, so to speak.

Unethically, would you say to some extent? You know, probably. Yeah. Yeah. But because they are not part of the OSI, you have plausible deniability so that if, you know, anybody comes back and says, hey, you sent these thugs over who said they were going to bury us in the desert for talking about this stuff. You can just say, that wasn't us. We have no idea who those people were. Exactly. And almost all of them were sheep dipped. If you know what sheep dip is. Yeah. So they were, they would have IDs, uh, There were postal workers or whatever IDs they could get a hold of. And if you checked, it would be legitimate.

Some of them might have worked for some construction company or something like that if they were caught. Yeah. Now, and some were caught either by us or by the civilian police. And there were ways to get them out of what they did. And it wasn't my job. It was the Department of Justice already had been briefed into all this stuff. So, and I'm not sure how that worked. But there were cases where they got caught doing what we told them, asked them to do. Yeah. Wow. It does seem like a lot of skull duggery happens within these organizations to maintain secrecy. A lot. Yeah. And that's part of, I mean, counterintelligence as well. Like there's a whole other, you know, when we think of counterintelligence, I think.

think not myself, but I think when a lot of people think of counterintelligence and especially, I think the names that come up are yourself and Lou Elizondo in this space. Yeah, yeah. You know, people often, they, they immediately go to, oh, disinfo agents. And there's, there's a whole facet of counterintelligence that definitely deals with miss, mal or disinformation. Yeah. But there is also a whole other side of counterintelligence that deals with. with espionage that deals with other countries, foreign adversaries and that type of thing. So how would you, to the average viewer, looking at this scrutinizing, you know, the counterintelligence being involved in the euphology, how would you sort of justify the presence of counterintelligence in regards to UFOs? Well, we, the job of the Air Force Office Special Investigations,

specifically the Special Projects branch, which I worked in, and we call them PJs, different from Paro Rescue. And when I always say that on the air, they say, wait a minute, PJs are Paraly rescue, you know, special projects, our code was PJ. Our job was protect materials, classification, classified material, special access programs, sensitive compartment information under Title 50, prevent that information from getting into the enemy hands. And we would do everything in our power to protect that information.

Our job was to protect the classified projects, special access programs, or sensitive aircraft, new aircraft, from that technology from getting into the enemy hands. And back in old days, it was the Soviet Union, the red Chinese, North Korean, Cuban. So we did everything in our powers to do that. And that may involve deception operations, which this probably calls disinformation. It's deception operations using misinformation. Okay, that's our job.

Counterintelligence and counterespionage is part of counterintelligence. We've ran counterespionage operations against UFO groups because of who was in that group, somebody that's not native. Remember, we are a free society. The Soviets or Russians or not. Back in my days, it was a Soviets. The Soviets could penetrate. us because we're an open society.

And guess what the number one group they always penetrated, UFO groups. We had Soviet operators in Mufon, Cause, Apro, all these different groups, to get information. And this is what people don't realize is that Mufon, the reason we, counterintelligence penetrated mufon and at pro and cause these other UFO

groups was to keep track of the other hostile intelligence services penetrating them. You don't realize you can't realize the number of not Soviet spies but I would say

Soviet influence that were in these groups, not just Soviets, even to Chinese and people within the group. And why? Well, believe it or not, Mufon or APRO got information that the government didn't have. John Doe sees something. He doesn't report it to the Air Force. He reports it to a UFO group by phone. Back then, the internet wasn't around.

And now, Mufon sends field investigators out to investigate this. Those are field investigators, unless it's something that is going to affect national security, they're not going to come to the military. So we have to have people in a group that know what these investigators are doing in order to report back to us. So that's what that complex West Nest that involves. counterintelligence. Yeah, I suppose where people might be a little, I guess, put off by that information would be, okay, you're infiltrating for national security in order to perhaps fend off foreign adversaries from getting access to this information. But with the same stroke,

you're also misrepresenting what happened to a lot of the experiencers, a lot of the investigators, you know, it's your job also to mitigate that information in a way that protects, you know, sensitive sites or real sightings, protect the secret from going out. Do you think that that is still in effect today? I mean, I would assume so. Oh, absolutely. Mufon, all these different organizations are completely infiltrated, and there's nothing that goes on there that isn't overseen by intelligence agencies, you would say. Yeah, there's a Bill Moore in every one of those groups.

Well, I'm glad you brought him up. How many Bill Moors were there when Bill Moore was around? A lot of Bill Moors. But he was a person that I recruited, I handled him, that we sent in. into the, he was already members of the group. Of course. And all we ask him to do is report back anything of significant values, we call it EEI's

essential elements of information within intelligence that might affect national security. But also to disseminate information. That came later. Okay. And that's probably the one regret.

If I had to do it all over again, I would not be part of that. I was part of providing Bill with disinformation to send in to discredit the UFO group. And there was somebody else also doing that within the CIA. Now, and this isn't classified anymore. Bill Moore was being handled by both because Bill Moore had contacts within the Soviet Union. He knew scientists within the Soviet Academy of Science, and he was communicating with him. So the CIA was involved in that, and we were involved in the other side of it, what Bill was doing. He was a very important asset to us. And there was another person that was actually feeding the

disinformation to build more that went to these groups. It always, I was always hesitant about that. But, you know, I have a job to do. He had a job to do. We did it. We did our job. We were told to do this and we did what we were told to do. So that's the only part of that that I still regret.

I did everything by the book before. That I think we could have probably not. I think we could have changed. What would you have done differently? I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have targeted people within the group because those people within that group, and there was only one occasion I'm talking about. These, these two people were legitimately collecting really, really good information from a person that had a close encounter in Nevada. and not far from close to Dallas Test and Training Range. And we were, we, and I was part of it,

was trying to convince, first of all, we tried to convince these two investigators that they're not, you know, they shouldn't be reporting, they shouldn't listen to this person. We've already investigated him. He's a liar. Just forget it. Well, they knew he wasn't, and we knew he wasn't.

So they had this other agent would have to put more pressure on these two investigators with their Mufon. It was a Mufon out of Nevada. Very good people, too. And to try to convince them that they're not to listen to that guy. And I think at the end, they won and we lost. because they didn't buy anything that we were saying. And sometimes we weren't always successful in deception operations. I can tell you right now.

We try our best, but there were only certain things we can do. Even if we brought in the thugs from the 7602nd Intel wing, we had to operate under the law, mostly under the law. I mean, there was stretches where you could do things. But, you know, I never went above and beyond the law. I mean, I knew what our limits were. And there were times when we went right up and said, listen, this is it.

We can't do anything more. Whatever they do, they're on their own. And like I said, we didn't always win. Yeah, but I mean, just even the the notion of being fed misinformation or being, you know, having that information injected into a group. And then, you know, someone like Bill Moore in 89 at that famous Mufon symposium where he confessed to, you know, being part of that, I mean, that itself tarnishes, you know, not only his reputation, but also the organization's reputation. and we don't know what information is to be believed from that point on. So I would say that you did succeed. There's, you know, although perhaps those people believed or didn't believe or refused to believe what you were telling them, I think at the end of the day, the damage is done,

because as you know, in counterintelligence, I'm sure, you don't have to prove something. You just have to say it enough times and then people repeat it. In terms of, you know, let's look at, let's take a look at the 80s because there's a lot of stuff that came out in terms of like declassified or classified document leaks, namely the Majestic 12 stuff. A lot of the stuff that came, you know, to Jamie Shandera and to, you know, I mean, to a lot of researchers' tables. And then this came out, who am I thinking of here? Timothy. Timothy Good.

Timothy Good and Ryan Wood, you know, had a lot of work on the MJ12 documents as well. I don't even know how to ask this. What part of the MJ12 document was there a part of that that you or anyone you know of your organization was involved in putting out there? And if so, specifically, which part? Well, I can't answer. whether other people in the organization was involved in. And I'm sure they were. I wasn't involved in it.

The first time I saw that document was when... Which document, particularly? MJ12 that Jamie Shandera got. Yeah, okay. There's a lot more to that than just him getting that document. He got some... He was in Washington, D.C. two weeks before meeting with somebody.

because Jamie was part of another operation. He was an asset that was being used by Naval Investigative Service, which is now Naval Criminal Investigative Service. Back then, it was just NIS. And they were, and I'm not going to go into that details, but he was, he went back to Washington. He went back to the botanical gardens. He met there and they told him some things.

two weeks later, or roughly two weeks later, he gets the document in the mail. Stap marked Albuquerque, New Mexico. But that is another thing. That's a fake marking because when the FBI did analysis on it, they said this isn't a postal marking, but that's beside the point.

Anyways, he gets it. What I'm getting at, it didn't go through the mail system. it was placed in this box. I see. It was like dead dropped. Yeah, dead dropped. And so he gets this, he immediately contacts Bill Moore.

And Bill says, well, don't do anything with it. You know, let me see it and analyze it. And then at some time, some other time, he shows it to me. Bill Moore shows it to me. But he shows me a copy. Now, and we're in San Francisco, okay? Bill Moore meets me there and we were doing something entirely different. But Bill says, I got something I want you to look at.

But we can't do it here. We have to go someplace private. I said, well, what is it? He said, it's a document. I said, where did you get it? He said, I got it from Jamie. He doesn't give me the whole details in. Anyways, I said, well, go to a hotel room.

He shows it to me. I immediately take it from him. I said, Bill, this is classified. What how did you get it from? He said, oh, it's a copy of a copy. I said, where's the original? Jamie has it. So I take it.

I seize that document. I'm an OSI. I'm a federal agent. I seize that because it shows classification on it. So I said, okay, so I'm here in San Francisco. The closest facility around a military facility is Travis Air Force Base and Fairfield. So I go out to the OSI office. there and I said this, I'd seize this from somebody, you know, you need to package it,

you know, do the package in this top secret. You got to go through the armed forces courier system to get it to wherever. Anyways, what do you want us to do with it? I said, I want you to mail it to me at Kirtland. And so they do that. I sent it to headquarters. I sent it. When I go back, you know, four or five days later, I get it.

I package it and send it to headquarters. I never hear anything more. I call. I call. I said, hey, do you get that? Well, I know they got the package. Because they have to go through an arm forces courier system because it's top secret code word.

Yeah. And the guy I talked to, his last name is Benjamin. I said, hey, Benji, we call him Benji. Benji, did you get that package? Yeah. He said, he said, I put it through the channel. And it's been a month probably, and I haven't heard anything back from it. I said, so what are they going to do?

I don't know. Out of my hands. So I go and I thought, well, maybe the investigative side of it, the guys that investigate espionage are handling it. So I get a hold of one of them. I said, what are you doing that document? He says, it's been passed on. I said, well, what are they going to do with it?

He said, I don't know. But you don't need a no, Doty. I said, okay. I was out of it. Then I, you know, I'm somewhat intelligent. You know, I went to college. I could figure out what two and two is. I thought, that's a disinformation.

That's a deception operation that just occurred. Do you think that was from CIA or from your department? Well, there's a special office within the Defense Intelligence Agency, also the Central Intelligence Agency. It's named differently within the DIA and it's not classified anymore, special means committee. The special means committee creates documents for mostly counterespionage operations. Right. So, yeah, passage material. Yeah.

You run a counter-espionage operation. You have to give a little real stuff in order for the Soviets to believe it or whoever you're targeted. Sure. And so they do that. Wow. So I kind of figured that probably came out of there. I don't know for a fact. Sure, yeah.

Now, when this was all being investigated back in 87 and 88, the FBI pretty much targeted the D.I. but the DIA denies it. So I don't know. The FBI had help in, didn't the FBI go to the go to OSI in determining that it was bogus now? Well, that's that's where the crux is because whether it's real or not, I mean, they're going to deny it outright either way. there was a meeting when when and I I've found this out years later not then not during the years sure I was sitting at a UFO convention and one of the um uh colonel law he was chief of counterintelligence for OSI he he showed up that towards the end of this UFO convention and uh I actually went to an airport and got him and brought him there and anyways we were sitting talking and

And he's, and the subject came up of, of Ryan, Ryan Woods, doctor, the father. And he said, wow, I never thought that stuff would end up where it ended up. And I, I said, Colonel, I said, that stuff real? He said, Richard, how many counter-esper? binage operations did you run? I said, well, quite a few. You realize you have to give them the real stuff, some of the real stuff. And that's all he said to me.

So the image 812 documents contain some legitimate information mixed in with some bullshit information. But none of that you can confirm. I can't because I didn't. I was an author of it. Just like, it's just. Like when the Linda Howell incident happened. I don't know if you want to talk about that.

Sure, if you want to talk about it. We all know who Linda Howe is. She was an enemy now she's a friend of mine. I was tasked with an operation to bring her in and brief her on something because of what she was doing. The documentary she was working on HBO. And so this is actually what happened. About a week before she was due to Albuquerque, OSI already knew that she was coming to Albuquerque.

And they told me, you need to make an appointment, and we're going to send you something, and we want her to read this. I said, okay. So she's already contacted Jerry Miller, who was part of this. And so I ended up going and picking her up. The day before, the afternoon before this was to occur,

we had a place to interviewer, and there was a two-way mirror, and everything was going to be recorded, audio and video. And I get a package in from the Armed Forces Courier. I opened it and I kind of looked through it, but I didn't really read everything. The day of her meeting,

I went out just before I went out to pick her up to bring her to the gate because she had to be cleared in. I read it. I went through the document. And I said, holy cow, this is presidential briefing document. But, you know, the counterintelligence officer in me says, I wonder how much of this is real.

So anyway, she comes in. And I give her the spiel. I said, you can read this. You can't take notes. I can't photograph it. And so she reads it. And she asked me, how long do I have? I said, you can read it a couple different times.

So she took her probably 35, 40 minutes. I mean, she read everything several times. I took it back. I put it back in the desk. I packaged it up. I sent it back to headquarters. And that's my beginning. of using her as a source of information.

Now, I find out later that they were going to do this operation against her, and it's been handling the headquarters, not with me. I was just a field agent handling what they asked me to handle. I wasn't actually the case agent that was being done in headquarters. She was to do a documentary for HBO on UFOs. And she had information that she had obtained from an Air Force officer who worked at the Pentagon. My job was to get the name of that officer so we could run a case against him because he disclosed classified information to her. So that's why I handled Linda.

and she was a tough cook. I was totally unsuccessful. I never got anything from her. She's very smart. She would give me other information, but names, I never get that from her. Yeah, Linda's tenacious, to say the least. Yeah, that's a good word for her.

Yeah. Okay. But getting back to it, the information that she was reading, you don't know. I actually only had access to it for that short period of time because I had to send it back. I read it. I read the document. I read the same thing she read.

And I thought it was amazing what they were giving her. But I thought it can't be real. I mean, some of it probably is. Now, over the years, I've learned that some of that is real and then some of it isn't. So what have you created that isn't real? I create, we mean during my time in OSI? I didn't create anything. No material?

No, I would not be allowed to do that. No, so, you know, but what information did you pass on? Okay. That was given to you that you know for a fact wasn't real that people took us to the truth. Oh, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was an incident involving a civilian that saw something. It was actually an experimental craft. It was the first prototype of the Aurora, which was being developed at the same time that the F-117 was at Tonapah, that same time period.

This guy saw this, and I had to give him information on a UFO. I made, we made up, OSI made up, the story about a UFO that occurred, a sighting of occurred the same time. he saw this real craft. So everything I gave him about that UFO was false. I mean, everything. It came down for headquarters. I even probably embellished a lot of that stuff to convince him. And he was thoroughly convinced.

And then I had him sign an NDA. Wow. So that was one of, I mean, I probably did it. Well, I know I did it other times. this is a funny story about Nellis test and training range while we were out there when I was out there at a groomlike. Back in those days in the late 70s and 80s, prostitution was legal in Nevada. Most counties had Nye County, which most of Nell's testing range encompassed Nye County,

a little bit of Lincoln and a little bit of Clark. Our job was to go out and recruit every single prostitute around Danes Testin range and pay them to inform us when an Air Force person came in and talked about anything dealing with their job. Wow. And we did that. And I tell you what, the best sources of information are those prostitutes.

No way. Because we actually ran a case against a pilot. Because of... He came in, he used one particular prostitute all the time. He was a major, and he was flying the 117. Oh, wow. And he would come in and try to impress her by telling her stories about the F-119. And he was doing 117, 119, and that it could do all these strange things and even,

we could chase flying saucers with him and all this stuff. Well, when we visited and, well, she called us. We had a special phone number. She called us and she said, I got some information for you. So she was at Prump. Were they paid? Oh, well paid. So the Air Force paid prostitutes?

Yeah, yeah, well paid. But not for anything, just for the information. So I go out there with another agent and we go in and she says, she gives us his name and she tells us everything he said. And I said, he told you this stuff. Yeah. I don't know if any of it's true. They don't, wouldn't know it.

I said, okay. I said, how often does he come in here? She said, once every couple weeks. Well, they could only get off every whatever it was. I don't know, I don't remember now. Periodically, he would come in. I said, does he make an appointment? And she said, yeah.

I said, next time he calls him make an appointment, let us know, we're going to put a, we're going to bug the room. And so she does and we bug it and we get, and he's, she's just asking him questions. Hey, remember you told me about that plane that? You guys are flying out there and flying saucers and stuff. And then he went on like 20 some minutes.

talking about it. So she calls us and says, hey, you know, he left and I turned it off like you told us to. And we could about get it. And then we go pay him a visit at the dorm at Tonapaw, you know. And it's funny. He's in this dorm and, you know, he's officer, he's a major. And he has a sweet. And then I knock on the door. He opens it. And his face just went. He knew. I say, you know, Special Agent Rictorian's OSI, and he'd talk to you. He says, okay. I said, but not here.

You're going to go with me. We're going to go over the OSI office, which we had one at Tonnipa. He says, you want me to bring anything with me? I said, no, just your ID. Just, you know. So put him in a vehicle. He's, we get him in the office,

put him in an interrogation room. And what you do is you put him in there, and there's a camera, and they know, the cameras on and we sit them there and we let them wait because this is going to be interrogation. It's not going to be an interview. And that guy's married as two children. So we come in and I come in with the other agent.

I sit down. I said, Major, he said, I know you're going to talk about. I said, shut your mouth. Don't even talk to me yet. I said, when I ask you a question, you can answer it. He, sir, he's sure. And I tell him, I kind of give him a preamble, not mentioning anything directly. Sure.

I said, you know, you're a major in the United States Air Force. You've been a pilot for whatever it was, 14, 15 years. You're flying one of the most expensive and most classified aircraft that Air Force has. And you're married, right? you got two kids your wife's at Edwards Air Force Base, you're here and you can't keep it in your pants

and he starts crying. Yeah. It's not funny, but he starts crying. He said, okay, I said, but, but, before I ask any questions, I have to read this to you. It's your Article 31, that's a

Fifth Amendment in the military. I read him as, you know, you write to me silent and all that stuff. And I pulled him the document where I said, you just sign there on the bottom that you acknowledge it. He does. I said, so now we're going to talk if you want to talk. But remember what's going to happen if you don't talk to me when you leave that room. But you don't have to talk to me. And he talked. Yeah, of course. He made it everything. He took offline status. He sent him back to Edwards. And he eventually, he just took him off that program.

I don't know really what happened. I mean, I think he went back to flying status, but not anything classified in. I guess you had to have the prostitute as well signed NDAs. Oh, yeah. In that case. Well, they don't know. Yeah, we do, but they're not liable to really talk about it. They keep their mouth shut.

Yeah, they're good to keep a secrets. They're very good to keep in secrets. Yeah. And that wasn't just, that was one of many. Sure. cases that we had. So quite successful. Very, very successful. I said that therefore spent a lot money and the prostitution around, but we never, we never got anything from information. Yeah. On the books at least. Yeah. Okay. So towards the end of the 80s now we've,

you know, we've gone through so many things in terms of documents coming forward. Uh, prominent researchers being sort of outed as, as, you know, part of a disinformation campaign. A lot is going on in uphology. But then in 1988, there is a TV special,

which you're on, the UFO cover up on TV. And, well, you're hidden under the alias falcon, if I'm not mistaken. And then there's also, So what was it?

It was Condor was the other person. And you Bob Collins, Rob Collins. That's right. And you go on there talking about a lot of really interesting things. Now, I want to know, did that come from your own volition? Or was that an order to do something like that? Where did that come from? Where did the impetus happen?

Well, number one, that wasn't live. That was recorded a year before. Right. And that was part of another operation. And that came from OSI? Yeah, it came from OSI. So they were, because that's the, that was 87, not 80. Oh, 87, my bad.

And it was so strange because, you know, you're basically making public what you were the same information that you were giving to Paul Benowitz. What was the call there? Why go from, hey, we're going to keep this contains and control the situation to now go public with this thing. Like, what was the reason? OSI was trying to, that was part of an OSI and FBI investigation. They were trying to draw somebody out. I see.

And they were hoping that what I said, now, at the time I did that interview, I didn't know about what was going to happen a year later. Actually, it was like 15 months before the October 87 interview, or the movie. Yeah, when it came out. When it came out. Yeah. So I didn't know that the lid was going to get blown. No. Yeah.

And so they were. were hoping, and I wasn't involved in this part of it, they were hoping to draw somebody that they were looking for that had disclosed classified information to somebody else. And so I had a script. Okay. And were you aware of what parts of that script were fabricated, confabulated, and which parts were maybe real? Most of what I said was was real. But there was some

probably misinformation in there. I don't remember. I don't remember. Okay. The strawberry ice cream probably. No, the strawberry ice cream was real. No, it wasn't stuff, really? Absolutely.

The strawberry ice cream, go back and ask Linda Howell. Okay. Linda Howell had the, she interviewed, the captain that lived with Ebo 1. Okay. From 47.

And he used the strawberry ice cream. He, that started back in 1980 when Linda Howell heard that from the captain. And what was the reason to include that? I feel like that feels like disinformation. It does. And is that why? Yeah. Because it's so out.

It's so outlandish. We're just going to throw that in there. Yeah. Wow. So that was officially authorized. It was a project. It was a, was there a name to that project? I'm sure there was, but I don't recall it.

I don't recall what the name is now. And then the whole idea of like the aviary and that sort of, that was, what was that about? Well, the aviary was created by Jamie Shandera and, and others. I can't remember think of her name. Tracy What's her name? Anyways, that was created by them Because of the

Working Group that I was a part of that Hal put off, Kit Green, Scott Scott, what's his name? Senator Pell's aide and others that we would meet. Richard Helms was actually the Falcon.

He was the part of the control. I was just a really low person on a totem pole, so to speak, and I did a lot of fetching things for them and the security clearances and stuff for them when they had meetings. And Jamie Shandere got wind of that, and he named these people the Avery, We found out about that after the, after, you know, it was out in the public. I think Phil Kass.

Yeah. Phil Kass was interesting stuff. What's also interesting, and this is something I wanted to mention and not something I've ever talked about before, but so in, there is evidence that I have that shows you're familiar with David Copperfield? Yes. His father was stationed in Roswell. I have a picture of his ID from 1945 at Roswell Air Force Base, and he was counterintelligence.

Wow. At Roswell. I didn't know that. Now I have, yeah, not a lot of people do. Nobody does, actually. But I did some digging because I have, I just thought this was an interesting overlap as well, being that the most recognizable deception artist. of our time, David Copperfield, had a father who may or may not have been part of the Roswell cover-up.

It was the driving force for David's show in Vegas for many, many years, which involved a UFO, an alien, like he had this whole, you know, Vegas show. And what started that was him going through his father's things when his father passed and finding his ID. Never do that. Yeah. So there's his ID. And if you see here, it says Squadron C-6.

And that's not an actual squadron that flew. You know, so the last name's different, obviously. It's not called field, yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Interesting. Very interesting. Yeah.

So he might have known more than, I believe his mother was also stationed there near Roswell. Oh. So, yeah. Interesting, interesting tidbits. Very interesting. Were you ever tasked, you know, because we, we hear this. whether it's, you know, I interviewed John Ramirez, who is here as well, who's, you know, ex-CIA, Lou Alizondo. And we know for a fact now that you're never fully an X information agent.

You know what I mean? Were there ever instances where you were called upon? And I'm not going to, you know, ask you for specifics that those are classified. But were there ever instances that you were called upon after you left the OSI that had to do with UFOs? Yes. Okay. Would that be prior to 2015 or after? Prior. Prior. Prior. Never after? No, never after. Okay. And this was between 2002, 2003, and 2015, somewhere in there where you would... I left government service in 1988. I was recalled in 1991. Okay. To work on a project. And again in 94. And then after 2002, I was a contract employee for a while. You were contract employee for the OSI? Just leave it at US intelligence. At US intelligence. And it had to do with the UFO topic.

Not all of it. I would say 50-50. Was that in a monitoring capacity or in a sort of, Did you have to inject yourself into this in order to, you know, throw some information into the mix that perhaps wasn't true? No. No? I worked for Dr. Putoff from 94 to 2007. I see.

And so I'll leave it at that. I understand. Okay. Someone else was interested in Hal put off's work. Okay. Wow. Interesting. Would Hal be aware of that, you think?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Smart guy. Very smart. Brilliant person. Yeah, can't put much past him. No.

How many saps do you think he was right into? Oh, God. You know, it was so much, when I first started working for him, I didn't have a, I, it took a while for me to get a DARPA clearance, okay? And he would be working on things in his own skiff, and I would, he would tease me, but he would never tell me. But when I got the clearance, it was only on a need to know. There were times when I would go into the SCIF

and there would be a meeting and we'd sit and talk and then we'd talk for an hour, the scientist and his other texts. And then he'd say, Rick, bye, and I'd leave. And they were working on something that I didn't have access to. I just didn't have a know. But I would say dozens and probably more.

He had, and this isn't a secret, but he had, or proprietary, because a lot of things I can't talk about, he had, in a certain area of the lab, pieces of extratrust or material that he was trying to figure out. And is that part of the reason why you were contracted? Um, partially. No, partially. It was because of my counterintelligence work and what I could do and what I could, because a lot of what I did was I went out to talk to people. He just sent me out to interview people that had some connections. I interviewed, you know, we went to South Dakota and I went to South Dakota with some other people from the lab to dug up something because in 19,

58, I think it was. Can't remember what year, but in the 50s or early 60s, UFO had crashed on his rancher's land. And he never told anybody about it. He buried it. No way. Yeah, he buried it. And his grandson is the one that got a hold of somebody who got a hold of somebody

who got a hold of Dr. Putoff. and then I was the one that went to South Dakota to try to find what did you bury. And the only thing that the grandson knew, because his grandfather was dead and his father was dead, and it was just a grandson. Yeah. And it was that it was buried in this one area that there's nothing grows around it.

And they water it and water it and nothing grows. So this was the place. So we, that's about all I can talk about. Did you see anything? We saw a lot. You saw what they took out of the ground? Somebody, somebody saw what was taken out of the ground. And it went someplace, but at that time, it was turned over to the government.

Right, Pat? No, this is in, no, it went to probably Groom Lake, I guess. This was in 2002, I think, here. Okay. Wow. No, 2000. And the crash would have happened in the 50s or the early 60s. Yeah. Yeah.

Is that near, was that near any type of radar base? It was, um, southwest corner of the state. south of Keystone. It was just, yeah. So, I don't, you know, there's Ellsworth Air Force Base.

It's still there. It's, it was a couple hundred miles from there, but, was, you know, I think it was actually near, no,

later on a Minuteman's site. Okay. But, yeah, in the 50s, I didn't have one there. Well, that's really interesting. And that's, so you weren't, so you were right into that program.

You were right into that recovery then, I guess. I was right into, yeah. Well, partially. I didn't handle anything. Yeah. I didn't analyze anything. I just set everything up. And then other people came in and did it.

So you had partial access. Yeah, just limited. Limited. And how many limited? partial accesses have you had to other crashes, would you say? Four, I guess. But that was during my OSI career. Yeah, that was in the 70s of 80s.

So you had quite a few. I was actually at one crash site. I was there. But the crash happened years before, but they found it. They discovered it. and I went there as part of a team to do the counterintelligence work regarding the people that found the craft site. But this craft site was in 60 sometime in the 60s. And it was undiscovered.

And it was undiscovered. And a mining exploration team from some company was doing work in a shaft. and they found it in this mine shaft. And now that's another, I mean, I don't know anything other than they found it. And what, when we went there, you went on site. We went on site. It was assumed because of a lot of factors that the invest, other investigators, not me, because of where it was

that this thing had crashed here outside this mine shaft and these miners didn't know what to do with it so they put it in the mine shaft and they had it in there and I don't know why they never reported it to anybody or maybe they did there's no record that I know of maybe there were records

don't hold me to that because we went there and they had found it in the shaft And they extracted it? It extracted it out. The government, the Dart team did it. It has to it. Special down aircraft recovery team did it.

And they pulled it out and, you know, they took them. I don't think they even got inside of it until they got it to Tonnapaw. And now jump ahead when I was out there, this is before I went to Tonapaw, to Nellis testing range. I checked on that while I was there. And they had, they still had that craft there. The disc? The disc, yeah, it was a disc.

And it was a small one. It was not that big. It was, uh, you saw it? Yeah, I saw the craft. Yeah, I was there at the crash site and I saw them pull it out. And it was, it was probably, um, five feet in diameter. So they think, but they couldn't get into it. They can't, they couldn't find an opening.

So it was like a solid. Yep. Well, they did eventually, but not during that time. When I was there, I didn't see any... How long did it take them to get in? I don't know. Like I said, that was 1980, 81. I was there 84. They got it open four years, maybe, three or four years. I don't know exactly how they did that. Plasma cutters or... Something. And what I don't know is whether they found bodies in there. It would have been many, bodies. I mean, they might have had to be two feet tall. It was very small. It was like a drone ship or something. It could very well be. I think somebody told me that was probably a scout ship that crashed for some reason. There was damage. It's funny because they couldn't get in it, but the part of it was indented. You know, I guess when it hit the ground or I don't know exactly how,

but there was part of it that was indented. So, you know, I always, you know, of course, I don't know technology like others do, but why did it take them so long? I mean, we had diamond cutters and sorts of things back in those days. But they obviously got it open, but I don't know what they found in there. I was never purviewed of that. Was that the first time you saw with your own eyes of UFO? Was that the last?

No. Let's go. Tell me about another UFO you saw. While I was at, I can't, I got to be very careful. While I was at, the story I gave you earlier about being on call and getting a call, I did. My partner went out to a place outside the Nellis Tussin Training Range up near Warm Springs. there had been a crash, and that's about all they can talk about it, because there's a lot of other things that happened that could very well still be classified.

Were there beings involved? Yes. You saw the beings? I didn't see the beings, no. You saw the crash? The beings were, well, let me say this. When I got there. Just cleaned out?

No, the body's recovered. Oh, I see. So I didn't actually. I can't say. You know, I say, yeah, I saw the body. Well, no, they covered. So I'm not going to say that because I didn't see the bodies. I don't know what they.

They looked probably at least five foot. I'm just looking at it. Yeah, you assumed that those were alien bodies. Yeah, assumed they were alien bodies. Yeah, they were covered up. The other agent that came later that had access to everything in a world about that, he took over. I was just, remember, I was a duty on call. And I went out there initially.

I set up the counterintelligence ringway, as we called it. The highway, the state trooper and the Knight County Sheriff's deputy that was on scene because... You had to debrief them and... Yeah, I did all that stuff. And the... They contracted a trucking company out of Hawthorne. Nevada, to come and put it on a flatbed.

I guess we didn't have one. We had a government in him. And I had to make that arrangements with that trucking company. And I had to make sure that the driver, this is funny, when I was making the arrangements, this is Hawthorne. And there's an army base there, a Hawthorne in Nevada. It's a depot where they make bombs. And so this truck and company worked out there a lot.

They're used to, like, classified scenarios. Or sensitive, yeah. Sensitive, yeah. So I said, I need a driver that had been in the military and they can take orders. And the woman that was coordinating this with said, why? Because I just need it. Or we'll have to go to another trucking company. She said, we take bombs all the time out to Hawthorne.

And I said, listen, man, this is. what I need. So I get this guy. He's the foreman of a certain section of the trucking company. He, uh, you know, I go there and I sit him down. I said, you're going to pick something up and you're going to take it from here to there. And he said, okay. I said, you, you know, you can't ask question. My lips are sealed. I said, so you agree to do this? You agree to sign this. He says, I've done it before. I said, you've done it. before he said yeah you're talking about these round things and i said what what do you mean round things he said well before i took picked up a round thing and took it out out to the base okay you're the

guy wow you're the guy i want and so he you know he went and did did the thing it was you watch it happened no no no no the other agent that was in charge of that i did all this set up all the paperwork stuff all this setup. I did not. I was not there during that time. That's what counterintelligence does. They funnel all the information. You create the classifications. You talk to, you debrief the people, give them cover stories, tell the agents what to tell the press, like that type of thing, right? Exactly. And the craft itself, that's the other guys. Did you have conversations with those guys? I would have to coordinate. Yeah, it would be coordination. I mean philosophical conversations. Did you guys speak about the origins?

Did you guys speak about, you know, what you think it is? Like off record. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. And were they able to give you information that you would never even thought of? Or did they seem legitimately like really well versed in this topic? Like they had information that was really pertinent to this, like, like origin or reason or.

you know, whom, why, where, what, like all these speculative things that we talk about. Did you get access to some of that? No. Through those conversations? We would talk philosophically, but I didn't have a need to know. Right. So it was all that information. And I tell you why, within intelligence community, I don't care if you're my best friend,

you might be able to take a bullet for me. You know, we're guns too, remember. But I'm not going to, I'm not going to tell you something. Yeah, you're not going to break your. I'm not going to do that. And that's the way it was. We would talk philosophically. You talk about aliens.

Yeah. Like, you know, these guys, I bet you there are, I bet there is a base on Mars or, you know, or maybe Venus isn't what it, you know, things like that we would talk about where they come from. Maybe they're coming from Mars. Maybe they're coming from Pluto, you know, things like that we would talk about. But they would never say, no, they came from, you know. Yeah.

Epsilon ready or some, you know, no, they would never say that. Okay. Man, does that, what does that feel like seeing something like that? Well, going all the way back to my first briefing and not believing any of it, every single time I was exposed to an extraterrestrial craft or something to do with an extraterrestrial being. it strengthened my belief that everything that I was briefed on is fact. But what do that feel like? Scary in a way because one of the things that people don't like to talk about,

I don't like to talk about it in great details, is I was brought up a Catholic. I went to Progoal School. I was an older boy. I believed in God. I did my prayers and did all my confraternity and everything. And I spent some time in a monastery before I even went to high school. So I had a strong religious belief.

Now, one of the questions that people always ask me, and I ask myself, is, okay, God created the universe, so I guess he created the aliens too. Did he? some of the things we learned or Linda Howell was written about Eba One. He claims that they put a humanoid on a planet 2,000 years ago. Was that Jesus? You know, these questions I have. You've always had.

And when I had the briefing, I have to, you know, okay, wait a minute. Is this for real? Okay, it's for real. Are these things made by God? This is something I think about. And other people have, too. And if you connect the dots, could it affect the way

other people believe in their religion? And that's something I really don't like to get into. I mean, I've settled myself, but there were other people out there that, you know, the revelation that this guy several years ago did on a UFO convention that some of the extraterrestrial characters are similar to Tibetan characters.

What does that mean? Did they live here on Earth? They created Tibetans? Or, you know, there's all these questions that people have to think about. Yeah, it is pretty, it does get pretty existential when you start thinking about that and thinking about, you know,

the, uh, what that means for us here, why we're here, why they want to be here with us or why their presence is here. And I'm looking at the list as I speak to you here of like these different, these different names. And, uh, I, I have no idea what to make of this. Like personally, I don't know what to make of any of this, what to make of, because, you know, as you can probably, assume someone who's very well versed in counterintelligence, I'm a magician, probably the most skeptical person out there in terms of, you know, understanding methodry in terms of, you know, all the, all the methods on how to obtain information secretly or how to misdirect and all of this. You know, I'm given all this, everything you're telling me, and it's a melting pot.

of a thousand different things. With all the years that you have, you know, built into this and all the information that you've gathered, all the secret things that you've seen that you can't talk about and the people you've spoken with and the projects you've worked on, is there one overarching thing that neatly packages everything a la, you know, passport to Magonia, Jacques Valet, control system, Or are we dealing with like a thousand separate things? Separate things. You think so?

I think the one thing that convinced me beyond anything else that I had access to was listening to this Air Force sergeant, a female who was abducted countless times, went through literally tortured by these extraterrestrials, having marks on her hands. They took her fingernails off or toenails off. She was bleeding from her vaginal area almost after every abductions, bleeding from the eye, ruptured her eardrum once.

And then a lot of things that we did in a surveillance capacity to confirm what she says. that convinced me that there are, they weren't humans doing this to her. They were extraterrestrials. Now, were the extraterrestrials interdimensional? I don't know. You know, there's an argument can be made.

But there were non-humans doing this to her. And I wish I could tell you how we know. But believe me, the government knows that these were extraterrestrials. that were doing this to her. You surveilled it? There was, we actually did. We had a, we knew, based on a lot of things that I can't talk about, methods and sources I can't ever talk about.

But we knew when they were going to do this to her. She lived in an apartment complex outside Curtland Air Force Base. She was stationed at Curtin. And she, uh, lived in a two-story, a real small apartment. And she, her bedroom was upstairs. And we knew that she would be taken during a time period. And we set up a surveillance.

And that's about all I can say. That's a fact. And she's a whistleblower. And she would be the number one person I would put in front of a camera if I was a member of Congress. She is a legitimate whistleblower. She's retired from the military. She's a grandmother now. She taught school for some time.

She lives around the D.C. area. I'm sorry. She lives around the Baltimore area. But she has been interviewed by many of the U.S. representatives and at least two senators and some of their staff. So she's legitimate. Whoa. Now, the problem is what happens when she tells her story.

You know, Stephen Greer is a friend, a nice person. I've worked with him before. But his mentality regarding they can't be hostile. They're all benevolent. It is absolutely out the window. And I've told him this to his face. I said, Steve, you're relying on faulty information. You're being misinformed.

And I'm telling you from a, listen to me, because I'm a counterintelligence officer, people within your circle are misinforming you because there are hostile extraterrestrials out there. And that's the ones we have to worry about. And you've seen this firsthand. I've saw this firsthand. I have so many questions that you can't answer. Well, well, I've seen. seen her sitting in front of me talking about this.

You know, as far as firsthand, you know, I wasn't there when she was doing, you know, how this stuff was happening. But you saw the surveillance images or sorry, the surveillance apparatus, whatever that was, whether they filmed it or whether they, I don't know, but you saw that. I was involved with it, yes. You were involved with it with like setting up the surveillance. Yes. And you had enough to go on. First of all, how you knew that was going to happen is a whole other discussion that I'm sure you can't have. No, because I didn't know what the protocol was.

Yeah. But they knew. Yeah, we had Air Force Intel. We had FBI. We had OSI. We had NSA. All part of this. Because in order to.

If you can imagine, in order to understand something that's alien to us, we have to have the top technical people within the NSA and these other agencies involved to create something, to build something. Plus, there were contractors involved in this too. So this is a multi-pronged, multifaceted, multi-departmented, sting operation in order to capture this on some type of media that you can then review. And it was successful. It was, yes, that was successful.

There were some that weren't, but that was what was successful. Obviously, she was made aware and she was part of this operation. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And... I mean, did you get to interview her after? Yeah. We thwarted that.

She wasn't abducted that night. You thwarted it. Yeah. We prevented it based on all this stuff. And we got her out and we got her to a safe location because there was always doubt. Not in my mind, but other people's minds. There was an FBI agent working on this. And he didn't believe words she said.

Even after Apolligate, he was just, I don't believe any of this stuff. But after that night, he sat in, I'm not exaggerating a bit. He sat in a room when we had her out at the base. It wasn't always an office. It was another secure facility out of the bay because we didn't know if these things were coming after. But we were in a protected area at the base, as Sandy Laboratories area. And this FBI just sat in a room crying because he doubted her. He said all this time, all these, you know, eight months or whatever it was, I doubted her and she's telling the truth.

So you felt bad? I believed her. He didn't. He was always skeptical about everything. Rightfully so, I think. Yeah, rightfully so. He had a lot of background. You know, he was a Vietnam vet.

He was in the specialist or the steadiest operations group. I don't know if you know what that is. In Vietnam, the guys worked behind the lines. You know, they drop them off in Laos and, you know, for 100 days or whatever it was. And he went through a lot, this guy. And he is a tough, rugged FBI agent. But he had a, you know, he had changed him. It actually changed him because I worked with him after that on other cases, including

the Paul Benowitz case. And he was a different person. As I saw in other people who worked that operation, they, they, I think a lot of them were scared. I mean, if you see something that's literally out of this world and your mind can't comprehend it. Because if you go into something and you just, like a child, they did the experiments with a child, putting them in a hostile environment, not a hostile environment,

they can't comprehend, you know, and humans are saying, you know, we were the same way. We can't comprehend what we're seeing. or how we're going to rectify it. When you're given, regardless of its training, because we went through a lot of training, a really good training in the intelligence operations course. I mean, they would put you in a situation,

not UFO situations or anything like that, but they would put you in situations where there's no win, but they made you go all the way up to the end and you figure you're going to die, you know, in the exercise or something. But they do this over, and over and over and over again. Stress inoculation.

Yeah, exactly. I was just going to say that. Stress inoculation. So when you're out doing the job in the real field, nothing's going to bother, nothing's going to scare you. But regardless, I mean, that much scares me. But after that, seeing what I saw or listening to her tell her stories, you know, I'm thinking, wow, I sure hope that doesn't happen to my girlfriend or that

then I wasn't married or my. My mother or my sister. I mean, why are they picking on her? And, you know, all these that you worried about yourself. And why they pick her? That's the question that I don't know the answer to. I'm sure maybe the government does. Are they on here?

Yeah, they go there. Which ones are they? The heparloids, the, I'm sorry, let me say you. The insect ones, quadiloids. The ones that look like insects? Yeah. Those were the ones that were... But this is a complicated part of it.

They are able to manipulate your observation of them. I mean... Sure. They can manipulate mine... Can they manipulate the camera? I don't know. I never thought of that. So was there something that you saw in that operation?

I can't talk about what I saw. but I can tell you they they're real can I um okay so they're not the other the quadaloids these ones yeah the aliens uh the insect humanoid types yes um it says they have a high IQ why would something with a high IQ be so violent that's trying to get inside an alien mind and we can't do that I'm going to show you something you can have this this is yours okay I'm going to show you something. Real Canadian Superstore has everything you need this back-to-school season. Save on lunchbox savers like Ziggy's sliced deli-meat products for always 375. And get Life Brand Pure Vita shampoo or conditioner for $8 each. At Real Canadian Superstore, when you're ready, we're ready, with a whole world and more. Okay.

Wow. Is that like something you've seen before? I can't say. I think you just did. Was that? In pictures, in a document, not in real life. Is that the same thing that was involved here, or is that different? I better not say.

Okay. No, I'm not going to say. Okay. Is that going to be on your air here? That hasn't been made public. Okay. Yeah. You're going to make it public?

Not any time soon. Okay, no, I better not say that. Yeah, yeah. So if I didn't make it public, you could confirm or deny it. Probably. Yeah. Okay. Well, maybe one day.

Did we take a break? Let's take a break. All right. That's a good time for a break. Okay. I mean, where to transition from something like that? It's just so jarring to hear that. I've never once heard of an abduction being thwarted.

I think that's a new one for me. You know, we hear about abductions. We hear about people trying to film them, unsuccessfully. Something always goes wrong. Murphy's Law, some type of, you know, whether that's people at Skinwalker Ranch filming stuff and things going haywire. But never had it occurred to me that, you know,

other than the instances of people saying, you know, sort of the Lord's name or something, like you hear about stories like that and that sort of fends them off. Is that, is there any merit to that? Well, there was part of that. She was religious, and she, she wore, say, Christopher's cross, but that didn't stop anything. Yeah. They didn't seem to, and there's a lot more.

She, she would argue with them, this is in the beginning, okay, we're going back months and months and months. Yeah. when she first came to us, which we didn't believe her. I tell you the truth, we didn't believe her. She would tell us that she would have arguments with him because of God. And they kept asking who is God, who is God? Who is this human God? And, you know, she couldn't explain.

So, but she. would pray and afterwards she would say why are they doing this to me and again the government the air force uh let's let's say this the abduction started and she wasn't she didn't come to us right away she was going to uh the base uh hospital or the sick call yeah and she didn't know what it was she thought she was having dreams or, you know, whatever it was. But she was having, you know, fingernails were taken out. Well, they thought they were, she was doing it to herself, you know, self-mutilation. She was in a very sensitive career field.

And so they were careful. She had PRP, so they were very careful of that, of what she claims happening to her. So they took her off the job and put her in an administrative office within her squadron. And that upset her because, you know, she liked the job she was doing. But these things were getting worse and worse. Finally, this doctor-based physician who was an internist who had been co-opted by us because of other things. Saar. And he immediately called us, and that's how she became involved with the OSI.

He said, you need to interview this woman, this girl, this sergeant. I said, okay, so me and this female agent interviewed her. And she never mentioned aliens or anything like that. Okay, nothing like that. She's saying this phenomenon is occurring to her, where somebody is taking. her and doing all these things to her. Now, at that time, she was living on the base. She had moved off the base yet. She's still living on the base. And I thought, well, you know, she lived in an all-female back then. They weren't co-ed. She lived in a female dorm. It was only females in there.

And there's security, you know, keeping the men out, so to speak. It's like a house mother. Sure. I said, well, who's getting in your room? How would they get in your room? I don't know, she says. You know, we just couldn't understand. And why were they doing this to you? At that point, it was a fingernails and a toe nails.

That were removed. Being removed. All of them or just? No, no, no, just one. Or they would cut him and it would take one off. And they'd scrape the under the skin after the nail has been removed. And so we checked with a bay. Why would anybody be?

Maybe somebody had a fetish. There were perverts. Devant behavior. Devant behavior. Some guy like toenails and what, you know. And we had all sorts of, we had our own sex. On the OSI, I remember, had an investigative side, a criminal investigation side. These guys investigated rapes.

We, you know, get those experts in. They have no idea. I never heard of that. You know, guys have, you know, people have fetishes and perversions, but nothing about moving nails or anything like that. So we couldn't figure it out, you know. And so then it would go, you know, four or five months and nothing, and then it would happen again.

And like I said, initially it's just fingernails. She did have her at one point, her eardrum function. her right ear drum. And then it started getting worse. Then she went in one night to the emergency room, the base hospital emergency room. She was bleeding from the vaginal area. She had holes poke between her,

on her left foot, between her big toe and her first toe. Like somebody put a rod in there. But it wasn't bleeding. So, you know, the guy in an emergency room, of course, he's just a regular doctor. He couldn't figure it out. He calls OSI the criminal people because he said, she'd been raped. Yeah. So they went through the whole rape protocol.

Yeah. Call in a gynecologist, and the gynecologist said, no, she didn't have sex. Somebody inserted something into her vaginal area. So at that time they admitted her because they were thoroughly convinced she was doing this to do herself, self-mutilation. So she was in a hospital for, I don't know how long. And we interviewed her, I think, twice, maybe three times

when she was in the hospital. And she was so upset because she said, I'm not doing it to myself. I'm not doing it to myself. So then they sent her town to Shepard Air Force Base. in Wichita Falls, that's the Air Force Psychiatric Hospital down there. So they sent her down there to be thoroughly evaluated because they're saying she's nuts. So I don't know how, I don't remember how long she was down there, but a while, I, you know, a couple months or something.

Anyway, she comes back because the psychiatrist says there's nothing wrong with her. She's not, in fact, I read the psychiatric report from this psychiatrist. In fact, we had OSI at Shepard Air Force Base go talk to this psychiatrist who wrote this. Yeah, to make sure that he was like sound. It was a she. It was a she. And she said she's not doing it to herself. It's not self-mutilation.

Some outside entity is doing this. This is in her report. And so we get it back and I thought, wow. Well, then we're thinking. well, she has a boyfriend that she doesn't, and they're experimenting doing, you know, who knows what, she thinks each other, you know,

because in some relationships, gay or even heterol, insertion of something into vocabities, it can be, you know, a game or something. So we kind of thought that, and we brought her in for an interview, and she admitted having a boyfriend and having sex.

She wasn't a virgin or anything like that. But her boyfriend belonged to this squadron. I can't remember the name of the, that left TDI or temporary duty all the time. I mean, he'd come back for a while and he'd go. I think he installed equipment or something like that. Anyways, so then we interviewed him. He didn't do anything like that.

We made him do a polygraph. I mean, no, he never, her, her. He never harmed her. But he said at night, he would spend a night with her and, you know, after sex or something. And then he'd go to sleep, but she'd talk in her sleep or she'd scream in her sleep. Or she'd wake up and yell and scream. Many times he said this happened. And he thought, well, somebody's in here or somebody's.

Now, he was going to her dorm room and it was supposed to happen, you know, so he thought that maybe somebody was trying to catch him doing something. And that's one reason why she moved off base. But, well, she made sergeant moved off base. So these all things, all these factors are building up and building up. So we, we're at the point we don't really know what to do when. So finally we asked her to take a polygraph. And she took a polygraph. And she took a polygraph. She passed it. And then we had to, now, this is something I can't go on a great deal to deal with, but we have this, intelligence service has this hypnotic polygraph system that very, very rarely is used where you put somebody on your hypnosis and you polygraph them. Okay. And the technique I can't go into, I'm not a polygraph examiner, but there's certain people that have to do. You know, do this. I mean, it just can't be a regular polygraph examiner. Most of ours were psychologists. Okay. Anyways, she went through that and passed because according to them, not me, but according to them, when you're in hypnosis, you can't lie. So that's...

You can't cheat a polygraph. You can't cheat a polygraph. You can't cheat a polygraph, yeah. Yeah. So that sent the flag up in headquarters and everybody in DIA. And that's when the full wrath of the government came in on her side. Whoa. And then that's where the sting operation began to get set up. Did they already have a protocol in place that they were going to act on? Yeah. So they already had something that was like kind of field tested. Yeah, but I don't know anything about that. I was never involved any of that. Sure. But they came in. all right, here's what we're going to do. We're going to set this up and do this this way, briefed her on that. And then it happened. Well, let me go back a little bit. Uh-huh. One of the things they wanted when she moved to off base apartment, it was just outside

to base, that quarter mile out of the base, an apartment complex. they wanted us to place covert devices in the place. Now, we don't do that. We have a technical service people to do that. Without her knowing. Without her knowing. Do you think if she knew it wouldn't work?

Well, they do. They did. They think that's the way they think. That, like, if she knew, they knew. Yeah. But it's a device that we can't, ever use this in court, we can't use it against her in any kind of administrative here. It's something that we're going to collect and keep and never tell her. Okay. Now, we do that

in a lot in a lot of cases. In FISA warrants, if they're non-criminal FISA warrants, if I get a FISA warrant for your house, I'll place bugs in there. But it's only for counterintelligence collection. I'll go and get them out. Could never be used. Never be used in court. We go to a federal court and get a criminal warrant, then that can be used against. Sure. Yeah, wire taps and stuff. Yeah, title three is four or five.

Anyways, so we did that. We did what headquarters wanted us to do or OSI technicals. And this is video and audio recording? No, it's just, I think it's just audio first. I think it was just audio. I don't, video came later, but I think it was just audio initially. And I think they put in something else later.

But anyways, the audio recorded everything. And, well, I can't go into details. But you can hear the beings? You can hear voices. You can hear voices more than her. More than one. Male, female? Indistinguishable?

Undistinguishable. I don't, you know, I only heard a small portion maybe 10 seconds. Oh my gosh. What was that like hearing that? Well, it. Is that frightening? Yeah, because it was echoing. It was like, it was like somebody who was talking through one of those, you know, those cheerleader.

No, just a cheerleader, you know, the cone, the old time cheerleader, not the electric ones. Like a tin canny sort of voice? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a good, good point. And then, of course, they analyzed all that, the tech people. I didn't do any of that. And then later they put the camera in. But it verified everything.

Everything she was selling us is there. And that's why there's a lot of other steps that were taken. A lot of other people came in. A lot of other equipment was used and, you know, sources and methods. I'm not going to go into it. How clear is that footage? I never saw video. I saw the audio.

I heard the audio. I didn't see the video. Okay. But the audio was very convincing to me. me. There was more. The thing about it is, it was like she was in a room full of people with these talking through cones. It wasn't just one voice. And I thought, well, at first. You're speaking English? English, yeah. Speaking English. Broken English. How clear was. Just as clear English as you and I speak. Or you speak, maybe I don't. Whoa. No, it's, it's, it was English. And, well,

let me go back we what we uh after we put the bug in and we heard this they wanted us to go in and do a surreptitious search for any recording devices okay so they hear the voices okay she's making them up she has a tape recorder or something you know something okay so we did well not me but osi did. You know, our experts went in and they can go in and put everything back. If this was like this, they'll put it back. You know, they'll take pictures, everything. And they went in and they didn't find it. She had a reel-to-reel, one of these old Sony reel-to-reel tape recorders. Yeah, like that. And that's it. She had a regular radio, you know, regular radio, AMFM radio. But she didn't have anything else in there. But this, they, they

took the tapes and listened, it was recording, it wasn't projecting anything. She didn't have anything that projected the audio, you know, you know. She was trying to record herself. Yeah. No, she wasn't doing anything. She wasn't using that at all. I see. So they, you know, we sent that up to headquarters. They're saying, uh, you know, these voices are English, you know, they, everybody's thinking English, uh, human. Uh, why is she, why are they talking English to her? You know, why are they doing it through her mind, all these things, questions that people, that I would be asking too. And because when I first heard that small portion of, I thought, she said an orgy. That's what kind of sounded like that.

What did they say? They were telling her things, telling her to do things. Like what? Lift your arm. Spread your legs. Things like that. Oh, my gosh. Lift your arm.

Oh, they, I forgot. They did things in her armpits, too. I forgot that. They were doing this in her room. In her room. No, they, well, yeah. Initially in a room. Now, here's, I can't go in a lot of details, but this is before she was taken someplace.

Okay. So everything up to that point was done there. Locally. In her room on the base, her dorm room in the base or the apartment. Or the apartment upstairs in the bedroom. And after we did what we did. after we, you know, interviewed her, because we eventually said, listen, listen to this tape. Oh, we've recorded you.

We've recorded you. And I said, well, first of all, we said, listen, we're investigating this and we did something and we want to tell you about it. Well, she kind of figured out something. She's smart. And I said, listen to this. And she listened. She said, oh, yeah, that was them. I said, and dumb me, dumb, dumb, dumb person like me.

Well, not dumb, but why are they speaking in English? I ask her. She says, I don't know. Ask them. You know, I don't know why they're, you know, why are they speaking in English? She says, I said, they always speak in English? She said, yeah. I said, she said, I don't understand an alien.

Why would they? Well, I understand that. But I'm, I was saying, why? are they verbally saying that and not maybe in your mind like that we think she said i don't know but they've done that too i hear them in my head that she she says so oh we thought okay whatever now what do we do um but then we missed opportunities and they took her they would take her out through her window to a craft. And then she would go someplace and then to bring her back through her window.

Like Linda Cortiel. Yeah. And she would be in a room. She was in a bubble. She says a bubble. It was a bubble. A round room. A round room.

And she was on a table in the bubble. And these, she saw then these ugly, she saw the actual, insecticides come in and they come right up to her. And this is the time that she's hearing them in her head. They're not moving there, but they're, they're badgering her. They're saying, who is God? Who is this God?

I don't like to say that, but what's his name? Where does he live and things like that that she's asking? Because she's praying. when she's abducted, she's praying. I think I said that, didn't I? Well, she is confused. And then there's, and then in this bubble, they're doing all these things to her,

you know, examining her and more evasive all the time, more evasive. And then she would lose consciousness and find out, find herself in the bed or in her bed in her apartment. the only thing I can say is there are some people during this time that were thinking that these extraterrestrials couldn't be in the same environment with a human. And that's why they come in this bubble. They had to keep her alive. They had to have oxygen and whatever. But when they went out, they were in their own environment.

I don't know if I, I know somebody. One of the DIA guys I talked about that. Apparently they have other cases that they worked on that I had no knowledge of. So that's why the government was above and beyond to do something to help her. And they did. To this day. I don't know. I'm sure.

I spoke to her in Washington, D.C. in 2022, and she's a different person. I mean, she hasn't had any abductions in, you know, 30, 30 years or whatever it was. That's terrifying. Yeah. It's terrifying. And, and, and, but to know, like, I mean, it's just so strange. The, like, what method was used to thwart them? How did they, was it guns?

Was it sound? Was it, like, lights? How do they get them out of there? How do they stop it from happening? I can't. I can't go into detail. Yeah. Wouldn't that be really important information for people out there to know in case they wanted to stop it?

It's not guns, nothing like that. It's technology. Is it a frequency? It's just technology. Interesting. I don't know. I'm not the same. You don't know the method?

I know how to use it, but I don't know what's behind it. Okay. Interesting. Okay. All right. We'll move from that, but we'll put a pin in that for whenever she decides to come forward. Maybe we'll have you back and talk about it. Well, I have her back too.

Maybe have both of you in the diner. When is she? Yeah, that would be great. Once she talks, man, I mean, she's going to be wanted by everybody. Of course. But I probably have an inside with her. I mean, all I did for her, all we did and just me, but always I did for her. Yeah.

Not just always I, but the entire realm of the government, I mean, she had NSA and, you know, everybody working to swart this. It's really alarming. Because you know what's hard, Rick, in this topic for me, is, and I'm sure you've come across this as well. You have to walk a line where one side of you says, okay, either this person is telling me the objective truth of extraterrestrial visitation, of whether it's mutilation or whether it's just experimentation, whatever that is. Or I am actively indulging in someone's potential psychosis. And that's the line that I always find very difficult because on one hand I want to be the person who people can trust to come to and

say these things and who feel safe and secure in saying them. But on the first, the other side, if this is all invented, then I'm actually not doing the right thing. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm making this worse somehow, uh, you know, by, by allowing them to sort of perpetuate this potential, you know, psychotic episode. And so, you know, something like that, I'm sure affected you in that same way. We're like, you know, there's a lot of times where I'm sure you couldn't tell if it was real or not. Even today, I'm sure, with people telling you stories, how do you discern, right? But then that gave you some objective truth.

Did that change how you felt about previous abduction cases? Absolutely. Absolutely. And she was one of the truly convincing cases. We had others that were not convincing. Right. That, I mean, you could, one of the things that was developed, I have to be careful, is the way to evaluate.

There's something, a widget, I'll call it a widget, that you telling me you're abducted, I'll bring that widget in, and that widget will tell me whether you're telling you the truth. It's not a lie detector, anything like that. It's something else that you just have to, it's too scientific for me. Of human origin? Yeah. Well, I'm not going to say.

Well, because I watched the movie, A Disclosure Day. Have you seen this movie? Yes, yes. So in there, there's a widget. Yep. Is that not unlike the widget you're referring to? I'm not going to say. Okay.

Because I found it very strange in that movie that that was brought. in because I'm like, we don't really hear about things like that at all. Everything else in the movie seemed to track, whether it's the psychic overlay or the sort of lingering psychic abilities that someone has after having an experience, the screen memories, the childhood abductions, there's so many things in that movie that really track and cut deep for, you know, people who follow experiencers. But that one thing stood out to me. I was like, what the heck's this? maybe he got some inside information.

Do you think that's the case? I think he did. Yeah, I think, yeah. 100%? 100%. There's some things in there that he'd gotten. He was briefed on. He was briefed on.

He was right in. Absolutely. Absolutely. In that specific movie? Yeah, that movie. Okay. Well. Is the widget one of them?

I'm not going to say. But there are, yeah, I'll say the moodjee is true. They can't do anything to me. But there's a lot. I heard from a very reliable source that 18 minutes was cut out of that film because the government says you can't, you can't possibly show that. Now, I don't know if it's 18. Some says six minutes and some says 18. There's some sections cut out because if you want, I watch it twice because there's reasons why I watch it twice.

and I analyze they jump you can almost tell where it's cut where they cut the thing excuse me yeah because I you know I've never edited anything but I've been on movie sets and I know

I know what was filmed and then what was cut later and what scene was you know so yeah I'm I'm positive now Spearberg will say it's sensors or something but sensors don't care about UFOs. I mean, if it's sex or something, you know, perverted, maybe they'll cut it,

but censors, nah. Yeah. And what I found interesting, too, is that normally movies depicting some type of government faction or department will have to acknowledge them in the credits. They didn't. They didn't. I thought that was really interesting. Because even a movie like Elio, which talks about, you know, there's space force in there. And that, you know, we are very grateful for space force in the Air Force and the Department of Defense and yada yada. So what's the reason why they wouldn't? Because it's so real that they don't know. They don't want to touch it? What part, in what part of the movie do you think was cut out? Where do you think, where do you feel that that was cut out? The ending was. Oh, so the ending.

She was supposed, I, well, this is what I was told. Yeah, sure. What source told you this? Uh, somebody in, uh, the company, uh, at Universal, somebody, no, uh, Autrin, uh, uh, uh, Othran, uh, oh, his company. Yeah, his company. Yeah, his company. Yeah, somebody said, there was more to the ending than was, so that maybe that's what it was cut out. Mm-hmm.

Uh, she was supposed to say more. And she was supposed to go into, she was supposed to say it, And then the alien voices, the clock. Yeah, yeah. At the end, and they didn't do that. Wow. Because I, I think, like many people, felt the shortcoming of that ending. Like, it was just so abrupt and strange that they would end it there. I was like, well, I stayed for the end credits.

It's got to be more here. Yeah, me too. Yeah, but, yeah, this, I think the ending, and then there's, when when he first got into the alien head thing to try to talk they cut some of that out I think at the beginning they also cut it out some things out and you're saying they cut it not for time or anything but for I'm saying I don't know if I don't know I'm just saying others have told me you think I wasn't there but others are told it I mean it's on the internet. I mean, you look, people, they were saying they cut it out for this.

They cut it out. I don't know. But my friend who works there said, yeah, there's, they did cut out some. And they always cut out film, you know, but. Yeah, I was scanning all the, uh, the sort of images that the news station was playing simultaneously. I was like, maybe there's something in here that they, you know, soft disclosure that they left in. Well, as I understand, there's, uh, a few people out there. And I'm actually going to go visit one next week who saw a longer version. Oh. And he surprisingly told me this. He said, oh, they cut a lot of that. I said, yeah, that's a rumor.

He goes, well, I'm not telling you rumor. I saw a longer version. I said, you saw a longer version? He said, yeah. I said, I got to come out and see you. Where did you see it? at a special show week. He worked for the government to.

Really? Was this showing in California? Yeah. Palm Springs area? You know. Was it? Yeah. Yeah.

Interesting. You know? I know they had a screening there. Yep. And I know there was some private jets landing. Mm-hmm. Two DARPA guys. Oh, okay.

But at least two DARPA guys. An Air Force Colonel. Because it happened during contact in the desert. Oh. Interesting. Yeah. So that, okay.

I'm going to have to talk to somebody. Yeah. I'm going to too next year. That's interesting. Okay. I want to talk about something a little more trippy since we've gotten into some really trippy things. Sure.

Now, you know, there is, there's so much I'd love to talk to you about, including, you know, Serpo, including more about Project Aquarius. and I mean, Dulce base, like all this, all this stuff is very fascinating. But one thing that I came across that I thought was really interesting is I had, I think, a mutual friend on here, John Stewart. I know, John. Yeah. Good friends, John. Yeah, John's a good guy.

I like John. You know, the internet gives them a hard time. Not entirely undeserved. I think, I think, you know, and John's definitely going to want. watch this. But I do think John sort of pokes the bear, so to speak. He's got a lot of gumption. He's somebody who, you know, his background is just riddled with someone who kicks indoors and doesn't really, you know, he's boisterous. He's all of these things. Which I think, credit to him, gets him into places and into conversations that most don't get into. Uh, into. I don't get into.

And so one of these stories is the story of this Carthusian monk in I think Northern Vermont or something. Yeah, in Vermont, yeah. And the story is, if the people at home haven't watched this, the story is as follows that he had someone reach out to this monastery because this monastery was found by remote viewers during, you know, the whole story. Stargate era or maybe a little prior or after. But they remote viewed the monastery as being as housing people who will help them communicate with the being that they had at S4, or at Area 51, Groom Lake or Papoose. And so they ended up going there. A Carthusian monastery, by the way, is like one of the most sacred. There's only one in the United States.

and these people take a vow of silence. Their whole existence is to do nothing but contemplate like God. They have the right to refuse being called upon by the church. Like that's how coveted these people are. And because of this, you know, they have a lot of wisdom and a lot of, you know, sort of this higher connection potentially. And they were eventually brought in and flown to the secret undisclosed location to communicate with this being.

It is my understanding through conversations with John that you may have also had some small part in this or an interest, a vested interest in this story. And is that safe to say? Yes, yeah. I knew of an operation that was occurring at Groom Lake. I didn't know it was Carthusian monks, okay? I knew there was a project that they were bringing people in to S2 Annex,

which is where the, we call it the creature containment facility. They had special facilities for these extraterrestals that we found or gained, I don't know how we got them, because a lot of them had to have special environments to live. and that these people that they brought in, again, I didn't know at the time in 80s that they were Catholician monks, that they were able to communicate with them. Now, that's it.

That's 1980s era, okay? Was that a project you were read into? I was partially read into it, yes, because one of the, one of the vans that, they weren't flown in to Groom Lake. They were bused, or they had a van. The government used a van. From Nellis?

They flew into Las Vegas, now Henry Reed Airport. And then they would bus them up to Nellis, and they would spend a night at Nellis, and something was going. I don't know what happened at Nellis. And then they would truck him, bus them or truck them out there. Well, one of them got in an accident. and up there, I think just south, near Rachel anyways. And we knew that they were very important officials. We didn't know who they were.

And so, you know, an accident happened, the highway patrols there investigating it. We had to go up in their interface with a highway patrol. So I knew these, I knew that they were some special. And we actually got another van from Groom Lake to come out to pick him up and then take him out there. So that's my involvement with this. I knew. And then one of the agents, Harrison was his name, who was actually involved, this counterintelligence operation for S2 annex.

He knew what was going on. And he had to give me limited access because of what I. I did. And I, because I came back and I said, okay, how do you want me to, there's certain codes we have to use in reports. How do you want me to code this? And he goes, well, they're going up to S2 annex and they're going to be interpreters. I said, okay, well, not interpreters. Sure. In a sense of what we could write down would be interpreters. That's it. Now, jump ahead. many, many 30-some, 40 years.

The story came out that from another person within John's realm of circle, so to speak, that told him the story, that there were two Carthusian monks that had special gifts to be able to communicate with these extraterrestrials. And apparently, I mean, again, there's a lot of whole, I mean, a lot of things we can't put together here. But these two were still alive. They were living at this monastery. And like you said, it's a very closed monasteries, like they were hermits. It looks like a bunker.

Exactly. You can't visit the place. We went up, tried to visit the place. Who's our? You and John? No, me and another guy went up there. And at the bottom of the hill, they have a gift shop. And they make, they have gift shop. They make honey. They have, they make other things amongst, you know, to sustain. And but you, we tried to get access to, we knew their names, the brother, John and brother, but we didn't know anything more about him. And they said, no, you can't. They're, they. They're. don't have visitors. Once a year, they can have a family member visit them. But these two don't have any family. And they're very old. And they're in, you know, like a hospice up there or something. So we could never get up there. But what we noticed was that there was a Vermont state

trooper that would patrol from the gate where the gift house gift shop was up the road and down i thought that's odd state troopers are trolling a private why's that well we we went to this local state police barracks and they basically said get out of here you know none of your business what we do and so we did you know and we did um records freedom of records checks he called them vermont And all we got back was that somebody pays overtime. It doesn't say who. Somebody pays the troopers overtime because what they're doing is overtime pay. Yeah, sure.

And that's it. That's all we got. We didn't want to have anything else. No names. No, I think we got the troopers' names, I think. I'm not sure. But that's it. We couldn't get up there.

but this other person who worked at Area 51 his name is Gene who actually was a director of security at Area 51 back in the 80s told the story of these two monks that they were in fact gifted now

where they got gifted from you know some people surmised that they might have gone to the Vatican and the Vatican had special powers or they knew or whatever. I don't know. Or maybe just through the vow of silence itself, you know, how if you damp in one sense, the other senses might start to increase. That's a possibility. Anyways, they were the ones that were able to communicate with this particular species of extraterrestrial. Which species? I'm not sure. I think the grays, one of the grays. And these grays told us all this

information. And that's part of the film that John is talking about. The alien interview. The alien interview. You feel like that film is real? Oh, yeah, I know it is because the guy that smuggled it out spoke. Victor? No.

No, the guy gave it to Victor. Yeah, he gave it to Victor. The Air Force Sergeant that smuggled it out. He worked in the audiovisual lab at Groom Lake. He had access to where he could copy that. Right. Yeah, you would have to. Yeah. The video or whatever, how they did that. I think it was on that. And it was during a time they were sort of digitizing everything anyways.

Yeah, digitizing it. Right, exactly. And so he was able to smuggle it out, keep it and eventually gave it to Victor. And then the story of Victor. You don't think that that could be passage material? No. He spoke to us a couple different times, the technician. And he doesn't want his name. because he still feels, well, he could still be prosecuted. Wow. And authorizes, close your class of information. There's no statute of limitations on that. Yeah, but I mean, you'd have to admit to something else. I know, I know, I know.

But, you know, he emphatically told us that that's what he did. And that's why John knows what the chain of events was. Sure. And so you're convinced, without a doubt, that is a real alien that we're looking at. I am, yes. Any other video online that you would say, That is, without a doubt, real, whether a UFO or alien? There's a couple.

Which ones? I'd have to show them. I don't have them right here. Okay, we'll describe them. We can talk about it. We could, I have some that I give to you. Okay. You'd think pretty sure is real. Okay.

Not the skinny Bob. Nothing like that. I'd have to see it. Okay. Because there's two different ones named Skinny Bob, but yeah. Okay. I'd have to. The one, the most famous foot.

fake one was the one where you see the military officers holding this doll. It was a doll. It was a joke, yes. Somebody took a picture and now they're claiming it was an extra trust. Oh, yes, yes, yes. It was a doll. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was a doll. Anyways, yeah, we can. What about there's this video where it seems like it's a crash site or something? Maybe in the 40s, it's sort of sepia, brownish hues and there looks to be on a stretcher like a tiny body and like military officials. It's very brief. Do you know this one? No, I don't.

Okay, I'll show that to you afterwards. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Well, yeah, I don't know where I sit with that. That's a weird one because on one hand, I, you know, you look at that video and parts of it are, you know, alarming because it, you know, looks like a being that's in distress and being sort of tampered. But the other part of me is like this kind of looks like a puppet.

But again, I don't know what an alien looks like or how it moves, right? So maybe that's the only way I can describe it. But when I see it, I see it, you know, kind of doing this here. Right, a puppet, yeah. Yeah, it feels like it's puppetry, which leads me to believe that at the, maybe at the very least, like this was made to replicate a real video, you know, And I think John, I think that's where he sits as well. Yeah.

You don't think that that was the case? No, I don't think so. Like this guy smuggled out a real video of something that was recreated. He just unknowingly smuggled out the recreation. You don't think that that is a possibility? I guess it's a possibility. But I go back to, I know the facility. I've been at the facility.

I saw a closed circuit, watching a closed circuit television camera of an alien inside. I went in there to interview somebody. I wasn't supposed to see this. I was in there watching this. And I asked the guy that I was supposed to be interviewed. I said, what's that? He said, oh, they're talking to one of the visitors.

They call them visitors. And I watched, you know, I watched, oh, maybe, you know, 20 seconds, 25 seconds of it. And then this colonel comes in, he says, can I help you? And I said, yeah, I'm here to interview so-and-so. He said, you're not cleared for here, sir. You need to get out of here. Oh, I wasn't cleared for there.

But I didn't know that they were doing this. So I know that they do that. Yeah, they weren't trying to pull one over on you. They didn't know you were there. No. So I had to get out. And then when I got out, he said, where do you work? I said, I'm OSI.

And I showed him my OSI. He said, oh, okay, never mind. I guess he assumed I was cleared, but I wasn't. So what I had to do, when you get access to something you're not cleared for, you have to report it and all these seizures. I went back to the office and I told my boss, I said, you know, I told him what happened. He said, what did you see? And I told him. He said, fill out of form 18.

And it's like a form that I had acknowledged that I had access to something. I was unauthorized. Yeah. And he said, I'll sign off. about it and they'll do it again. You know, he had to counsel me or something. There's a couple forms you had to fill out. So I know that that happens.

I saw it. And it was a same being? Similar. Okay. It was a similar. I mean, I can't say. Big head, large eyes. Yeah, big head large.

But it was in like a one of these swings that you'd put somebody that was disabled in. You know these? Yeah. swings. It was in a swing, like a harness. And it had straps around him. His head looked exactly like that one. And I didn't see the people. I didn't see whoever was in the room. But it was, it was moving like it was talking. But, you know, I said I only had a short period time to watch. I would want to watch all of it. But because it really perted my interest. I thought, holy shit, they got him in here. I thought, I knew what the facility was. What the facility was. I would want to watch all of it. But because it really pertied my interest. I thought, oh, I knew what the facility. I knew what the facility was. I was. I was. I was what the facility. I was. I was, but I never, you know, I wasn't, there was an OSI agent that was responsible for that area. It wasn't me, but I knew it was there. Now I know what they had there, at least one. You've had so many interesting encounters. I wish I had more. It was never enough. Never enough. But you talk about it so flippantly, like how do you get to that point? I feel like a lot of people

you know, I don't know. I don't know how I would process all that information, I guess. And I'm just kind of, it's not every day that you get to, you know, see something like that and then even know how to process it. Like, I don't even know how I would process it. Well, first of all, you didn't go through all the prerequisites to becoming an intelligence officer. You didn't go through all the psychological testing. You didn't go through the intelligence operations course.

that prepares you for the unknown. So that helped, but I'm a human being. And yeah, there's a lot of things that I saw that I can't explain. The briefing that I had in 1979 that I didn't believe, but then I realized it was real. Some other things that I had access to, to this day, I'm not sure what I saw. I mean, I saw it, you know, my own eyes, and there were other people with me when they saw it. but I can't explain it. And so, yeah, there's a lot of things that I can't explain that I saw.

And there's things that I did that I was told to do and I did it because that's my job. I'm following orders that I wish I didn't do or I wish I didn't see. And a lot of that were abductions. Because after the sergeant's abduction and all her case, it was very difficult to believe anybody unless they had, you know, really, really, really good proofs. And there was a case, another case I was involved in. I wasn't a case agent for it. I just had very, very, very limited access to it.

Another female, she was a dependent wife of a captain. She wasn't in here before. She was dependent on wife. You know what that means. And, yeah, your mother. And so she had an experience that I took the initial report on that made us believe that she was having an affair and was covering the affair with this supposed,

but it didn't turn out that way. I mean, like I said, I only had a little part of it. Did you, very little part of it? Did you bring in the widget? Brought into, they brought in the widget. And that confirmed it? That confirmed a shoe sound of truth. The facts to the case.

If we have time. We have plenty of time. Okay. She's driving. She leaves Kirtland. She's driving on the Interstate 25 to Colorado. Her, I don't know, some relatives live in Colorado. She has her, I don't know, a small child, I think seven-month-old child in the backseat and a car seat.

She's driving. She gets near Springer, New Mexico, which is, you know, about 40 miles from the Colorado state line. Okay. And the car, she has problems with the car. She pulls off the side of the road. It's just before the first exit going in the spring or New Mexico, a little town. And all of a sudden, the car lights up. She feels dizzy and she loses time.

She wakes up at Eagle Nest Lake, which is 70 miles away to the west. She doesn't have her child with her. She doesn't know where she is. She doesn't know what happened six hours later. Well, fortunately, a New Mexico State Trooper saw the vehicle at the side of the road, pulls up, looks in, sees a baby, doesn't see anybody around, you know, and calls and takes care of, you know, takes care of the child. But then he does his investigation and finds that this woman, you know, runs the plate and finds out this woman is supposed to be in a car. He calls back to the base and gets a hold of the husband who had been working or something. something, a captain, and said, no, my wife left to go to, I think, Pueblo, Colorado to visit

relatives. And they said, well, we found your baby in a car, but we can't find her. Where would she be? A fisherman jump up at the Eagle Nest Lake, it's a big lake in northern New Mexico. He finds her walking along the shoreline of this lake. And he asks, well, what's wrong? And she's all excited, crying. I don't know where my baby is.

he's, where'd you come from? My car, my car. So him and another fishermen are looking all over for a car. I thought there's only one way down a road. They can't find a car. So they call, we didn't have 911 back in those days. It was 411, wasn't it? No, it was zero.

I was here. Operator. Well, he had to go to a place to call. He left somebody in charge of her and drives to this gas. station, you know, seven miles away, you know, calls. And so the law enforcement is in there as state police. They come down there. Well, they know her name because the other trooper over in Springer found the vehicle.

And so they take her and they immediately take her to a hospital. And the closest hospital was in Raton, New Mexico, right up near the state line. That's the closest hospital. because she was delirious and suffering from pain all over her body. So they take her up there. And fortunately, the baby was taken there too to the neonatal care or the pediatric care unit there. So they examined her and said, well, man, you've been raped.

And she said, oh, no, I was in my car. She tells a story. Well, jump the next afternoon, the captain comes to our office with her and tells us a story. And I take the, you know, I'm there and listen to the captain. And she's out in a waiting room. She's not in back, because my area was all secure. I listened to him. I said, this is what she told you?

Yeah. I said, and she was raped by somebody? Yeah. I said, well, why do you think it's UFO related? He said she was taken out of the vehicle into the flying saucer. Okay. I don't believe it. It's okay.

So I said, well, we'll interview her, but I have to have a female agent. So we had them, but one was out. So we had to wait a while and we get her back there. We get a female agent. And she tells us a story, just as I told you, that she's driving and she pulls off. And the car lights up and she doesn't know where she went. and she wakes up on the shoreline of this lake. And she panics because her baby's not there.

And I said, well, what happened? No, I don't know. I said, who raped you? I don't know. I said, but you knew you were raped? No, I don't know. That's what the doctor told me. I said, okay.

So, okay, you raped. That's off base, it's civilians. Kind of let the state police handle that. You know, we're going to. So we, we're going to. So we coordinate with state police and they say, you know, we got investigators doing that. So they think the two fishermen might be involved in this. Right.

You know, they back then they didn't have DNA, but they have brought them in for questions. They have secretions. If you were a secretor of something, you can tell. Well, she didn't have any semen in her. Yeah. So they cleared them, I guess. And so then we started delving into it. Well, I didn't.

Another agent comes in and takes it. takes the case. So that's all I was involved in that. But months later, I was told by this other agent, female agent, that it was legitimate. She just came out at my office and she says, you remember the certain case? Yeah, legitimate and walked out. Wow. So that was my limited briefing access. Wow. So it really happened. What's your best guess as to why? And it's mostly women, why the abductions take place? They're interested in our body structures. Their bodies, their biologics are entirely different than ours. Their makeup of our skin, their skin, everything's different. Eyes are different. They're interested in us. And they're interested in

how we populate, how we can move, how our eyes move, what we see when we, all these things they're interested in. And this is me, this is Rick Doty's talking. This isn't something I read out of some document. I think that they're so interested in us that they want to experiment with us, but they don't want to harm us. And that's why all these abductions are occurring and from different species and they're just trying to examine us as we would them. We have, and now I'm talking from experience, we have extraterrestrials in captivity. I know that. I saw one, at least one. I know that there

were others. There were 20, I think 24, six, no, 30. There were 30 environmental cages or facilities that could house them, different types of environment, some where the extraterrestrial were breathing a little bit of methane. And so all this is happening. I know it. And so we're experimenting to try and figure out what these things are. We have dead bodies of them. Of them. in crash sites. We're doing autopsies on them. I know that from people like Kate Green and others that worked for the Institute for Armed Force Institute for Pathology. Kate Green did autopsies? Well, he saw the aftermaths, read reports. I'll show you a picture of Kit Green and me here afterwards. And so I know what I know and I know that that's what they're interested.

And now, technically of what they're doing and how they're doing it and what they're doing with, I don't know. I wouldn't know. And I don't know what we're doing with their stuff because I don't have a need to know that. And I never was in a position to have access to that type of information. You know, well, it's a good as guess as any, I think. Yeah, exactly. You know, well, they want to know us. They don't know why we're.

And again, you look at it in a different way, the Linda Howell way. and you know, God bless Linda How she's she's a heck of an investigator, and then fantastic for the Lord, that they've been here before us or they put us here, maybe. Maybe they were here before us. I, this is Rick Doty talking only, I thoroughly believe we had a civilization on Earth billions of years ago and that they killed themselves with nuclear weapons

because you can go to places, and I've been there in Malaysia and one place in Australia where there's remnants of radiation that has gone through their life, their half-life and full life, which is millions and means of years. And you can find that stuff. Well, we didn't have radiation nuclear weapons, means and millions of years ago. And that couldn't be some type of like a radiated element

that's like plutonium or uranium? I think the experts are saying some of these trace elements that they found were isotopes from from ionized radiation that we would have used in making a nuclear weapon. Wow. Interesting. And so I think at some point, I think there was a reset. There was life on the Earth years. And maybe they went someplace and maybe they went into another dimension. Maybe they do live in another dimension.

Underground. Or the bottom of the ocean. I have interviewed, and they've been on Gaia interviewed submarine commanders that will swear that there's civilizations on the bottom of the ocean. Have you looked into the 4chan whistleblower, as it were, the guy who came out and talked about mobile construction units in the ocean, namely off the coast of in the Bahamas? In Bahamas, yeah. Yeah, what do you make of that? That's possible. You've never had any crossover to like naval intelligence in that regard.

Well, one particular case that I worked was with naval intelligence. Well, no, I'm sorry, too. One of the Jamie Shandira stuff that I talked about earlier. And then this other case about what this, this, I got to be careful. Yeah, I can say. this guy was a crew member on a submarine in the probably 70s I don't know yeah it would have been the 70s

they went someplace they found something he took a piece a widget and he took it and he got out of the Navy and he lived in Albuquerque, New Mexico he worked on Curtland Air Force space is a civilian for a contractor. And he gave this widget to the contractor to try to figure out what it was. And naval intelligence had gotten information. I can't go into all that. But they knew all about this.

And they came to Aberkirk and said, we need to go find this guy. We need to go, you know, pull him in. We need to get the FBI involved because he's a civilian now. I said, okay. We're federal agents. and we could still do things, but we always like to have FBI with us, especially if it involves espionage

because that's their billywick. So, you know, I get Jerry Brown, the guy I interface with the FBI, we go, we go out to the base. I mean, yeah, to the base, the contract office. I can't tell you, the contractor. And he is there. We walk in, and he's standing there in front of us,

just happened to be walking out of his lab, and we called him by name and I said, you're so-and-so, and we all pull out her credentials, FBI, OSI, NCIS, Iran-I-S, we need to talk to you. He said, they got it inside there. It's over there.

That's what he said. That's just first words. So NCI says, well, that's not good enough. Come out in here. So we went into the little office and the coffee shop area and talked to him. And then we took him over the OSI office and then he did all the interrogation and stuff.

So that's the case. What happened to the widget? The government took it. No, you know what? I think they just kept it there at that lab because they're cleared for it. Oh, yeah, the lab was already. Yeah. So they just probably created some whatever the widget was.

Yeah. They were trying to figure out what the widget was. Yeah. That's the only other case that I worked with the Naval Intelligence Center. Yeah, well, it's interesting too because you have, you have stories of the Naval, the Department of Naval Intelligence as well, not just the Office of Naval Intelligence. intelligence and the department comes up with, you know, Bob Lazare, and it comes up a few other place. I know John Stewart had done some due diligence on, you know, finding other instances of that being mentioned. Right. Have you ever run into the Department of Naval Intelligence? Never.

No, Office of Naval Intelligence is anything that I ever ran it. And, and other than those two cases, I'm sorry, there was one other case where we were, no, we didn't have anything to do with, UFOs, was an espionage case. And O&I was involved in that. And we interfaced a little bit with that. Yeah, but never the department. No. You never heard of it?

No, not during my time. I never heard of it. Not during your time, but afterwards you'd heard of it. Yeah, I heard of it. Through Babazar and everything else. Yeah. Okay. Oh, one more thing.

I'm going to bring up some questions. We have audience questions that we like to bring up. Sure. They were, you know, told of you. your arrival 12 hours ago and they had limited time to ask questions, but, you know, the question board filled up, as you can imagine. I bet. Yeah.

But before we get there, I wanted to ask you about Lou Elizondo. There was mentioned some Space Force talk that you had run into Lou there. Is that accurate? Yeah. He called me a long time ago, uh, uh, in 2000, 21, 22 and we talked on the phone and he was wondering if I he asked me if I was still working and I said no which I wasn't I was I mean other than the these and guy and things and he said you would you be interested in working for a space force in counterintelligence office I said what and I don't know

who he is okay at that point yeah I said no I'm not interested I said I know a colonel in a up there. And I said, did he give you my name? He said, well, I can't say that. And so that was it. And then another person from Space Force called me, you know, weeks later or something and asked me about working if I was interested in doing some field work. If I could so get my security clearance back, he said, I understand you spoke with and he gave me a name of somebody. Well, this was a I said, yeah, I just was up there. In January 2020, I was called up to Washington to the defense IG's office. They wanted to talk to me about some of the cases I ran as an OSI agent.

And I said, sure, you know, do I get my security clearance back? And I said, he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can talk about it. And they gave me a report. They passed a report to me. And the report is heavily redacted. He said, do you recognize this report? And I'm looking at it. And I go and I look.

And I said, yeah, that's the report I did in 1981. But I said, I don't remember everything in there. You got one that's not redacted? He said, no, us, I won't give it to us. It's still classified. I said, why did you give me this? He said, we just need to know about it. I said, well, I can tell you what I remember.

It's nothing about what we've spoken here. And I told them what I could remember. Well, then that person's name was given to me from that person from Space Force. And I went back there in September of 2022, and they had an unredacted report that I talked to him about. So that's all. And I never worked for Space Force. I never promised to work for Space Force.

So what's Space Force's interest in wanting to work, in wanting to hire you potentially for counterintelligence? I never got that far. But, I mean, you can surmise. Well, I think they want, they wanted to contract me to do what I did before as a contractor. And cover up UFO stuff. Yeah, spying people. For UFO.

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I think. Again, I don't know. I can assume that too because otherwise, you know, go get someone who's, you know, green around the gills or whatever, you know. Yeah, so that's really interesting. And what are these here? We have Project Capstone White, Auburn Blue, Medlap Star, Candid Sky.

Those are all cases I briefly spoke about here. During. Okay. You can't say which one is which. No. And these are all the cases. Those are all the case numbers? That we can FOIA that you've, that.

I'll tell you, I tell you, that's been on the internet for about four years and a million people's FOIA. In fact, the FOIA monitor of a woman, I think her name is Fulton, OSI, called me up and said, you don't know what you've done. I said, well, you'll get some, but they're heavily redacted. Of course. In fact, this one here, 82 is it right here, you can get that one. It's 87 page of nothing. There's not even the page numbers are releaseable. Oh, wow.

Which is stupid. It's just all redacted. It's all redacted. And I'd say that one probably should be redacted. But there's some that are redacted that are bullshit. Wait, why should that one be redacted? Because it involves something very, very, very sensitive and it would disclose sources and methods and it would jeopardize national security. And it has to do with aliens.

Definitely. Whoa. Are we talking treaty level stuff? I don't know about treaties, but I don't believe we ever had a treaty with him. But that's me. But there's some here that are redacted that should never be redacted. I mean, maybe, yeah, sources of methods. But, yeah, but some of the things that are pilots, most of that stuff, a lot of that, not most of it, some of it involves pilots.

Yeah. Pilots flying classified missions. Oh, I see. Seeing UFOs. And the fact that their mission was classified, you can't talk about that. And they had a close-in-con, or they had a, you know, they saw the UFO, chased them or they chased it or they chased it or. They shot it down or there's just two in there where they actually shot down something, but it mended itself and it flew back.

It was like this is way before Transformers movie ever came out. But you had them. As a kid, I had one of those. And this pilot, and I can't go into great details, was flying a classified mission. And he's covering for this other. aircraft. And this is in the United States. I can tell you they're flying out of the Groom Lake area. And this thing comes up, a flying saucer, comes up and almost hits his cockpit, I mean, his canopy, almost just goes right over it. It really pisses him off. So he banks

and he goes after it. And he's protecting this other flying highly classified craft. And it goes down and he goes down and he shoots it. He shoots at it with a side of winder missile. Two of them and it hits it and it crashes. Now, he's in a jet so he can't have his lane land. So he's circling it and this thing he says it prepared itself and it flew away. And it reminds me of the transformer, you know, movies. Yeah.

I like those things. But something like that was in that report. And yeah, I guess that that would be. classified, the details. And there's a lot more to that than I can't talk about. There's a, is there a lot of alien encounters in these? A few. There's a few. There's one that's, that's probably the best story is, you want to hear it.

Yeah, please. This Air Force pilot loves fishing. So he's up in a lake, northern New Mexico, Lake Sallowwood place, fishing, just. him. He's camping too. He sets up his tent and, you know, his camp. And there's a stream and then there's a lake, very small lake, and he's fishing. And there's a clearing. He's in a really wooded area except for the lake. And then off to his north, yeah, north would, is a clearing. And one morning he gets up and he eats his breakfast and he goes and throws a pole in and he's, he hears a sound. he says, I've never heard the sound before.

He said it's like a pulsing, bo, bo, bo, bo, bo, bo sound. And he looks and looks, he thought, something, it's like something's shooting down something. Maybe a pulse ray or something. And that's what he's thinking. He's a pilot. He's an Air Force pilot.

He flies F, F, A7D's. as jets. Yep. So then he sees it, and it starts to come down, and something's pulsating under it. This is flying saucer. So he immediately goes over, and he has a camera.

In fact, one of those polarites. Polaroids. He has in his tent, because he always takes pictures of his fish. He gets his polaroid camera, and he comes out, because then he drops his pole, he goes over to the clearing. to the tree line to take pictures of this. And he said from the tent to the tree line is maybe 60, 70 yards, you know.

He gets over and he's waiting and he starts taking pictures. And next thing you know, there's two beans right next to him. He says, scared him, but he dropped his camera. And these things were like seven foot tall. They had helmets on. he couldn't see their face, and he goes into the whole details of what they did, and he thought, oh, my God, they're going to abduct me. That's what he's thinking.

Now, this is interesting because he wasn't briefed into UFOs. Of what a pilot would normally get training, and they do to get some of that. Yeah. He didn't know about u.f, abductions, but that came into his mind. And that was interesting, the interview and interrogation later about why he, you know, He thought that. But anyways, he looks and these things are, and then he starts hearing voices in his head.

And he thought, they're communicating with me. So he sits down and he never could explain why he sat down. But he sat down on the ground and he doesn't know how long this occurred. But when he woke up, he was in a sleeping bag in his tent. It was dark. he knows that he got up at 7 in the morning. He knows he made breakfast and he had a campfire and then he went fishing and it was like 15 or 20 minutes

after you start fishing that this happened. So he figured it was about 8.30 in a morning. And when he looked at his clock, it was 21.30, 9.30 at p.m. He doesn't know what happened. And he, it was scared him. He goes over to the tree line where he dropped his camera. Polar, it was still there. Poiler was still there.

And he knew he took two pictures of the craft. He thought he had taken one of them. Well, the pictures of the craft was on that were there. You know, how they pop out and they're on the ground. One had been, you know, when you don't take the picture. Yeah, it's kind of smudges. One was unrecognizable, but one wasn't. Very clear.

very clear. Well, he comes into the OSI. He calls the OSI office Monday. This happened on, I think, a Sunday, Saturday-ish-S-Sundie. He calls the OSI office. He says, I need to come in to talk to somebody. And this is what he said. All of phones are what calls are recorded. And there's just a clerk that takes a call the secretary, the down to an agent. I need to come in and talk to somebody that handles UFOs. That's, or flying saucers. and secretary says, uh, okay, what happened? I, I, I, I, I was abducted and I need to talk to somebody. I'm a captain and I seats there for us and she said, well, just a minute. So she puts on the agent that's duty agent, not, not that counterintelligence. Oh, okay.

So the, that agent, then I'm in, I just get to the office and, uh, I just sit down and I'm in the secure area. It takes me back. You know, I had to unlock everything in there to get there. And my intercom ring says, Richard, you got a call on nine, whatever. I beg it up to see. This is a special. Don't have me help you.

Yeah, do you handle flying saucers? And I think he's a cook. Yeah, sure. Because I get these. I said, yeah, what did you see one? Yeah, I saw one. I took a picture of one. I'm a captain in the United States Air Force.

And the way he talked, I thought he was, this is a bullshit call. I said, okay. I said, where are you stationed at? He said, I'm stationed at Kirtland. I said, okay. I said, well, why should you come down to the OSI office? And he said, I thought I had to make appointment. I said, just coming down to OSI office, I'll look at it.

So he comes down, and he, you know, an hour later, whatever it was, he comes in. He's in uniform. I said, have seat, captain. I said, what happened? And he tells me the whole story that I just told you. I said, where's a picture? pulls across. And it's a picture of something.

It wasn't on the ground. It was hovering. But there's distortion under it. Like something's blocking time. You know, something's blocking the view of the other side, like a pulse or something. I said, where did you,

an 80,000 of a story. And I said, wow. I said, well, did you have missing time? He said, yeah. about 10 hours. I said, hmm, okay. We'll need to start an investigation on this.

And we did. And, you know, number one, he's a captain of United States Air Force. He's a pilot. He passed the polygraph. He passed to hypnosis. He has a picture. He has evidence.

Yeah. So we go back up there like four, five days later. It's a 250 miles, north of where Kirtland. But we went up there myself and another agent and him. We followed him up there. He took us to, you had to park and walk a distance down to where he was at.

His tent was still there. I said, well, when we walked down, I said, somebody's camping. He said, now that's my tent. I said, you left your tent? He said, I had to get out of here quickly. So his fishing pole was still down by the water. So everything he told us, Yeah, checked out.

Evidence is there. So I said, where did you wake up? He said, I woke up in a tent in my sleepbed. So we took the sleeping bag as evidence, you know, and we took his clothes. I said, we need the clothes that you were wearing. Yeah. And, you know, trace evidence and stuff. And he did.

And so that was a legitimate incident. And that's one of these cases here. That's absolutely real. Wow. I feel like that one can be unredacted. Oh, absolutely. Most of it can be. Yeah, it's anecdotal.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If you don't provide the photo or anything else, I mean, it's just anecdotal. Interesting. Interesting. Okay, I'm going to, I got a camera back here. I'm going to turn it on so that we can film this thing. And we'll get to some questions.

Okay. How you feeling? Good. Good. All right. For those in the know, if you're a member here, you get access to our Discord. And on that, when we have guests here alerted maybe 12 hours in advance about the guests, and you have an opportunity to ask.

They asked a question. Well, this time, I think the prompt wasn't up for 10 minutes before it started getting flooded. So clearly sparking some interest here. And we're going to get to the first question. So thank you to everybody who asked a question. Sorry, I couldn't get through all of them. But here we go. Okay, some of these we've actually answered.

So I'm going to skim past them. This is an interesting one. In this one, what is your conviction on the portal somewhere in the U.S. that Koultard alludes to. Ross Koltard talked about, I think, a portal in perhaps Sonoma or that area. What's your conviction level? Well, this goes back to a rather long story about time travel, but make it as short as I can. I was involved in a counterintelligence operation. Sandia National Laboratories had a operation where they were experimenting with time travel,

trying to create time travel. And it was being done there at Kirtland and also out of Nevada test site. Well, they had advertisements in different magazines. Of course, the Internet wasn't around back in that days. And this person responded to Sandy Lab and said, I'm a time traveler and I can prove it. We did a full investigation. This guy went down to Arizona near Sedona and said, I can walk through a time portal and then come back out. Sandia went down there.

We all went down there. This guy we thought was full of it, but he actually walked through something. And to the best of my knowledge, although I didn't do a lot of follow up on this, he's never returned. Do you saw this? I saw this. You saw him walk into a portal. I saw him walk through a crevice in a rock. It was a rock-faced and it was a small crevice and he walked through that crevice and it was in anything, nothing on the other side.

It was being filmed. Could he fit in the crevice? He barely fit in the crevice and we were some distance away from him. And then somebody said, well, okay, he's in there. And so we waited. He, you know, his story was he was going to go in and then come back out and bring something from, and I don't remember if it was from the past or the future. I don't remember that. And he never came out.

At least the longest, we were there for hours and hours and he never came out. We went down there, oh, Sandy, a labs went down there and other contractors and looked at the crevice and figured, you know, how did he get out of here? It seems so silly to me that one can just call the most, you know, secured sort of facilities that are doing the most sensitive technical, technological advancements that, you know, U.S. Department of Defense has ever seen and could just claim they're a time traveler and you'll, you'll, you'll, you know, send out people and have a budget approved to. to go follow these people who just claim these things. Well, I gave you the short version. Oh, I see. There was a lot of follow-up investigations on this guy. We did background, background, background, and this is what makes it really interesting.

The only date of birth for that name of that person that we could find, and we have, even back in the 80s, we had, you know, the defense. index of indices. We had the FBI, the IRA, everything. We searched everything. Was somebody that was born in 1879, and I think it was, I think it was Billing, it was Montana, but someplace else. I think it was Montana. That's the only name we could find that fit, that person.

Was that who he was claiming to be? Yeah, he was claiming to be that person. And he gave us all sorts of, I mean, and again, I wasn't the main person that investigated him. Other agents did that. So I don't know everything that was done. But, you know, I had a report that I'd read. They went out to where he claimed he lived in Barstow, California. They checked his residence.

They checked where he supposedly worked. He claimed he'd worked in someplace in Bend, Oregon in 1930. or something like that, some date. They went up there. The company didn't exist anymore. Nobody knew anything about. So there was no checking. He couldn't check.

He claimed he was something in 1920. I can't remember something about 1920, where he was in New York or on a ship or something, and they couldn't find anything. There was something else that they found that verified that name. I think it was on a ship manifest from Cuba to to New York in 19-something, 1907 or something, a name. How strange. But they did all that stuff. So in somebody, you know, I guess Sandy

Labs decided they were going to hire him if he can do this. And they did a lot of background. And they did a lot of examination of him, psychological and physical. and all that. And that's something they did. I didn't, I wasn't involved in any of that. Was there any other instances of time travel that you were maybe briefed on? Yes, but that was part of the Sandia Labs experiments. And I'm pretty sure that's still probably proprietary. But there were, I think two cases where there was legitimate evidence of something traveling. What's your back in time, I think it was. Yeah. Back in time is interesting.

What's your conviction level on looking glass? I don't know enough about it. I just know what I read in open sources, but I don't know anything. Never come across any type of device that peers into time. Oh. Yeah, the widget. Let's go back to the widget. Okay.

We got a widget from. our friends or visitors. Well, like the Yellow Book? Yeah, the Yellow Book. So that's... The Yellow Book. Yeah. And that's your high conviction on that?

That's my only. I mean, I've heard other people talk, but me personally, I didn't experience anything regarding time travel. Other than what I saw during the experiments that were happening at other places, like in Nevada test site, there was an underground facility that he's huge magnets and they were shooting things through the magnets. Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just lay persons explaining what I saw. And I saw one time and they were doing an experiment, something opened.

And a scientist was standing next to me. I said, what's that? He says, you just saw the fabric of space opening. Wow. For a split. I mean, it wasn't like open, just for a split second. I mean, or whatever second. But that's, I saw that.

And so they, in 1980s, they were able to do that. So just imagine what they could do now. I can't. You know, we spoke about this at dinner yesterday, but like with the exponential growth of technology and how fast that's moving, you know, what looks like the stealth bomber in 2010, you know, to the people in 1980 might look futuristic. but what 30 years from now looks like would be indistinguishable from alien tech. I believe. I think that anything we see

that's 30 years advanced with the exponential growth, including AI and everything else. I mean, I don't even think we could imagine what that might look like in 30 years. Have you ever heard of the Lancaster incident? No. Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

No. You never heard of that? There's a story that was written in a book and Bill Moore had to book It's an old, old book. It was written in 18, you know, something. Anyways, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, during the Civil War, there was a photographer that was at a battlefield.

I think he was Union. Pretty sure he was Union. And, you know, because they had the big cameras, and they took this picture of the battlefield. But in the background of that picture, you would see a jet, which looked to me like a B-1, B-bombor. Whoa.

How'd that happen? And so, I mean, that was, there was a guy that spoke to UFO convention way back about 2005 or six about that picture. But all he had was that picture. There's no explanation, no evidence of the real, you know, nobody has a real, it's a picture of a picture of a picture. Yeah, you see, you see those photos pop up. We're like, oh, is this a time traveler?

Yeah. How did, how did that plane get there? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. All right. Let's get to the next question. Thanks for answering that. This is a good one from Chris Austin, Texas. What was the most serious UAP incident or slash encounter that you were briefed on? I think, you know, speaking about that Air Force captain was it? Yeah. Yeah. Probably. Yeah, that would probably be the most serious. There was a, there was a, there was a, another incident. I wasn't, again, directly involved in it that happened actually within the Nellis

testing range. That was incredible. And I actually have the statement from the guy that sent me this. He was actually there. And it happened in the 70s. It happened in, it happened in. Well, yeah. If you read that and you read the,

a certain Air Force person that came out saying that he was involved in some incident, this is a story that was, I talked about on Gaia four years before this particular Air Force guy came out to public. So. And what exactly goes on here? This, there was an Air Force team out at Nellis Test and Training Range that was going from one place to another. And they ran across an extraterrestrial walking along the road. Right. Whoa. And they panicked, the vehicle shut down. They, they had a radio in their vehicle, and they tried to call for help.

they finally got a worker, wasn't a, a policeman or anything, or a camel dude to report it. Eventually it was reported to OSI. That kind of follows the same story that another person who we've talked about. But this happened and, you know, in the same. time period that he's talking about. But this is verified. This isn't like, I mean, you've heard of the Jason Sands. Jason Sands, that's what I'm talking about it.

Yeah. I don't want to name. You mentioned his name so. Yeah. Yeah. So that's similar. Similar. Or Jason got it from here.

Right. I don't know. I see. I don't know. But, yeah, in and around the same time frame area as well. Yeah. Being as well described. being blue skin.

Yeah. Wow. But if you go to a guy at my, I can't think it was episode 80 or something. This was told. Right. And that's two years before Jason Sand came out. I see. I see.

So you're saying that there might be some type of overlap and passage material. Maybe they just had a different incident. I'm not saying Jason Lyon. I'm just saying it doesn't fit. Yeah. Yeah. One of the stories is already out there. So it definitely takes away from some of the credibility.

Right. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. I think, how do we do? I think we have one more here. Actually, let me ask you one last question. See if you want to, maybe a bit of a game.

Can you give me two truths and a lie? Two truths and a lie. And I won't attempt to guess anything. And we'll just leave it at that. So you can say whatever. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. We actually played this game and intelligence operations course. Interesting.

To each other for a psychological test, yeah. I'm not going to tell you, okay. Don't tell me anything. Just. Okay. In 1980, I was driving from in New Mexico, I was in New Mexico. I was stationed in New Mexico. I was driving from one place to another to pick up a good friend of mine.

He came in at an airport that wasn't an Albuquerque airport, okay? And along the way, after I picked him up, it was Santa Fe. I was coming back in Interstate 25. And he said, he pointed to Sandia Crest, which is a big mountain there. I don't know if you've been to Albuquerque, but. And he said, there's a tram that goes. up there, right? I said, yeah, yeah, there's a tram, important tram. He said, can you take me up there? I said, sure. So as we turn to go up that road, we see the tram going up, and above the tram was this

object following the tram up to the top of the mountain. Okay, in about 1965, I wrestled in high school. and I was at a, we were wrestling our rival school. And the wrestling programs for the school was really a rival. You know, one match we'd beat then, they'd beat us. And as you, if you know about wrestling, you start at the lower weights and you work up. And I was at the 130-pound class. and I was wrestling the

he was a runner up to state the year earlier and we were tied at that point because we had other matches and I wrestled this guy and I beat him on one I beat him

at almost because there's three minute rounds the third round I came within a second opinion I get the predicament, which is a point, and I win by one point.

Let me see. This would have been in 2015, no, 2014, I went to Laos. I was involved with this group that was still looking for POWs in Laos. And I was to allow us with this group of people to go to a certain location to try to find evidence of whether these POWs that were at this site was called Lima Site 85, was any remnants of it or because the site had been excavated by the military before. So I went there with this group and we found some, not remains, but we found some evidence of something that had occurred there. There's my three stories.

Amazing. Thank you for sharing that. I'll let the audience decide. maybe leave your comments below, one, two, or three, which one is the lie? Lastly, I just want to leave you with this. Richard Doty, how do you want to be remembered? Oh, wow. Well, I want to remember as a person who did their duty during my government service. I was in a regular Air Force. I had distinguished duty in an irregular Air Force.

I went to intelligence for a number of years. I did my duty. I did what I was told to do, how I was told to do it, and when I was told to do it. So I know there's a lot of animosity out there of what I did, especially during the Pub Benew's case, which we really didn't go to a lot details on. There's a lot more to that story. but I want to remember as being a person who did their job, did their duties to their country, and then afterwards I served also in trying to get this story out, disclosure out.

That's why I'm here. That's why I've done over 200 episodes on Gaia. That's why I'm open to podcasters or I made videos or I have the Doty Chronicles out there. I'm telling the story as much of it as I can without disclosing classified information. or jeopardizing national security. That's how I want to be remembered. Thank you so much for sharing all that. I really appreciate your time.

I appreciate you coming out here and visiting us and sharing your stories with my audience. And I can't wait to see, I can't wait to see how this is received, to be honest. There's a lot here. Thank you for your time, Richard. You're very welcome, Chris. Real Canadian Superstore has everything you need this,

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