AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - He Has Direct Contact With Aliens - Whitley Strieber - DEBRIEFED ep. 36

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

In this episode, Whitley Strieber joins us to explore The 4th Mind, his latest and perhaps most provocative book yet. We dive deep into consciousness, alien contact, and the mysterious Reddit EBO microbiologist leaks. From encounters with the unknown to the hidden dimensions of the mind, this conversation challenges everything you thought you knew.

I've seen them in a shop stealing things while controlling the minds of all other people in the shop. All of a sudden, a man, a ridiculously disguised gray, and this gigantic little boy show up. What is going on here? Then the gray and the giant little boy start playing patty cake. And they start playing patty cake, and their hands start to move so fast as making like a... You can't see their hands. A crowd gathers. I mean, we're in an airport.

at the baggage claim area. It's not secret. And people are watching this. And, you know, they're clapping and the little boy sort of bops a couple of times and turns and walks toward the wall and suddenly he's just gone. And the guy beside me says, did you see that? I said, yeah, I think they want companions, as I say, but they'll take slaves if they don't get companions. I know them too well. What does that mean they'll take slaves? That means soul slaves. They means they'll take over your soul. You for certain it was not a human being. How did you know? I can't get into that

but suffice to say it was in a situation with a it was in a situation where I was once involved in this he was a Nordic was there anything particular about this being that felt

unhuman his eyes on occasion people have come into close into physical contact with the gray's after meeting me. Maybe it'll happen to you. What's the end look like? You have to look at yourself.

It's you becoming self-aware. You, Chris. I just got off work around 10 p.m. Until I got to this stop sign, there was an SUV. The car was empty. The east of me, the nice object. The object was beautiful. The colors kept changing from spears.

All right. Well, we are rolling. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of debrief here. Today, in the studio, I'm joined by none other than the legendary Whitley Streber. Thank you for joining me, Whitley. Already a legend and yet still so young. Absolutely. I would consider you a legend in this field. And definitely an iconic figure.

author of how many books have you put out like 40 there's uh yeah something like that it's too many but most recently i mean obviously more famously a communion you know which which was uh new york times best selling book stayed up there number one spot for like six months um this book here which i have which i was going to ask you by the way at the end of the podcast you wouldn't mind signing them of course i'll sign them and i'll keep one for myself and then i like to do some giveaways for the audience here so that they can have them as well. Absolutely. Possibly the most recognizable cover in, if not the UFO space, but like this whole phenomenon space.

Right. Haunting, haunting story, profound. I think this book obviously resonated with millions of people around the world and especially experiences who didn't know how to put words or images onto the things that they were experiencing until this came out. That's right. But then most recently, and this is something I do want to talk about today, is the fourth mind.

Yeah, the fourth mind. This is a book where you cover not only the biology and the anatomy of these visitors, but also, I mean, you delve heavily into sort of the consciousness, part of it and and and and the reasoning behind it. And I just thought it was an endlessly fascinating reed. So I'm really looking forward to to talking about that. So Whitley, thank you so much for joining me today. Well, it's a pleasure to be here and I have never been to Montreal before. It's nice to be in Canada, so I'm glad to be here. Well, Canada's glad to have you. And I know, I know that you're from LA, so this is a bit of a, or around LA, so this is a bit of a striking difference in, in terms of

weather. Yeah, the snow is real. Very surprising. Was that a, was that a conspiracy in L.A.? No, no. If you see snow in L.A., it's going to be in a theme park. I see. Yeah. Um, okay. I have, I have some questions here that, I mean, I'd love to answer all of these questions, but I also just don't want to be too distracted from this. And I, you know, we've had a brief conversation here and getting to know each other, but that's something I'd like to do within the next few hours is just kind of get to know each other. Can we start by talking about just communion a little bit? Sure. Perfect.

It was for me, I only read this recently. And, you know, for me, that book is, yeah, it's haunting. There's some wonderful things in there, but there's some terrifying things in there as well. there is a line in the book that stuck with me that I've sort of had in my mind ever since reading it. And it really for me sums up the experience. And it was, I wish I lived in a prison. Yeah. Yeah, that I remember that.

And I felt after the experience gelled, and it took a while. because right afterwards, I mean, I was in no way expecting aliens to show up in my life. I mean, I didn't even know they were out there. I'd had experiences, a lot of experiences when I was a child, but they were so buried by that time. No idea, none, that this could happen. Eventually, after struggling with it for about four to six weeks, I was. left facing the fact that it was real. And what that line expresses is that the ground came out from under me, and I found myself standing

in empty space and falling and falling forever. And I thought to myself, this is a fall that has no end. I'm just here. And I think when I wrote that line, that was what was in my mind. Yeah, it's a scary thought to wish yourself into a place like that, but a place like that perhaps that provided a little bit of protection as well. Exactly. The idea was it would provide protection because, you know, I'm used to the visitors in my life now,

and I love them dearly. I'm glad they're here. But that was not true then. then it was like, it was really like real monsters who were far smarter than I was. They're not actually far smarter than we are. But that's how they appear initially because you don't know what's going on. And, you know, they're in complete control of the situation because of abilities that they have. But so it was overwhelming and terribly frightening.

and I thought to myself, how do I get out of this? How do I get out of this? And there was no way. I could push it under the rug. I could pretend it didn't happen. I could be pissed off for the rest of my life about what did happen. Or I could go for it. And it's sometime during the writing of communion, I decided I would go for it. I was going to do this. And I said, Annie says, well, what are you going to do? And I said, well, why don't we do this? Why don't we go out in the woods like at 11 night? And back to the place where I'm pretty sure it happened. She says, we?

I said, yeah, well, of course. She said, Whitley, it happened to you. I've got a little boy in the sleep in the bedroom, in his bedroom. I'm not leaving the house. You do it. And I thought to myself, whoa, I'm kind of alone here. But I did it. I did it anyway.

Crazy guy. In this room, we analyze events most people aren't even allowed to talk about. from contacts to encounters and beings that don't fit any known category. You see, we've read the reports and we've spoken to the witnesses, but now, for the first time ever, we can recreate what it is they saw. Art lists new AI video and image generator lets us do more than just imagine. We can build the moment, visualize the entity, and reconstruct the encounter. Take this encounter, for example.

In 1965, a French farmer noticed two gray beings in green jumpsuits beside their craft, in one of his lavender fields. Within seconds, the AI gives you a visual. Sometimes, it's disturbingly close to what the witnesses remember. And from there, we take it even further. Sound, motion, atmosphere. ArtList gives us the full toolset, from footage to sound effects, voiceovers, and music, everything, to bring an encounter out of the shadows.

This isn't sci-fi anymore. It's investigative reconstruction. some of these cases, it's the closest thing we'll have to real evidence. So go to Artless today or click the link in my description to try it out for yourself. Artless AI, built for creators used by investigators. Yeah. I mean, it takes a special kind of drive to be able to do something like that or to be able to face this head on. It's a special kind of craziness. I don't want to think of me as a hero. I was too scared to do it and too scared. Not too scared. Not. to do it. I had to face my fear because I couldn't live with it. And that helped you

overcome it to a certain extent? I didn't overcome it. I got used to it. There's a huge difference. Yeah. And I just recently, the lady who had a close encounter, had an experience where they did something to her to make her fear go away. She sent me an email about this. And I thought, boy, I wish they'd done that to me. Interesting. Have you ever thought of, because obviously, you know, through these hypnotic regression sessions that you've had to sort of recollect a lot of these experiences, have you ever thought of using those same techniques to maybe attenuate some of the fear? or? I don't want to attenuate the fear.

And you know, the whole issue of hypnosis was a huge one in my life. Because even though at the time, you know, because I'd been a writer, I had brushed up against hypnosis once or twice as a not something I'd never done, but it's something that interested me enough to read about it. And the problem with hypnosis is when you're in a state of hypnosis, you're unconsciously attempting to please the hypnotist. And I was initially very concerned about that because Bud Hopkins, who very kindly took me under his wing, wanted to hypnotize me, but he wasn't a professional hypnotist. So I said to him, no, I'm not going to do that.

And he said, well, what if I get you someone who's very practiced? I said, well, yeah, then I would. He calls me a few days later, and he says, well, I've got Dr. Donald Klein. And I'll look him up. He's the head of the New York State Department of Psychiatry, the top guy in psychiatry in New York, and not only that, he's a world-famous forensic hypnotist who's found all kinds of, It solved crimes and done all kinds of things with this forensic hypnosis. In other words, Bud had gotten me the best in the world.

And I thought to myself, I can't say no to this. Because if anyone can do this right, it's this guy. And that's where the hypnosis from communion came from. And I really never, I tried it with Bud later, but I was so paranoid about it not working that it didn't work. Yeah. That's part of the, you know, that's part of the, you know, that's part. of hypnosis as well. As a magician myself, I've practiced hypnosis for entertainment, you know, purposes quickly understood the immense power that it holds. Yes. You know, and for anyone thinking,

well, hypnosis is subjective and all of this, you know, I've done it myself, you're right? I've, I've seen people who are completely familiar with these other, with their friends, and then their friends suddenly forget words or their feet are stuck to the ground. Like, suggestion is incredibly powerful. And so once you start understanding how deep hypnosis goes into the subconscious and how much suggestion can dictate our reality, then you can understand both the pros and cons of hypnosis that, yes, suggestion can be implanted. Right. But at the same time, you can use it to unlock, you know, a lot of very deep and otherwise hidden memories. That's exactly right. And Dr. Klein, you just how to do that correctly.

Yeah. He was very good at it. And, you know, both of us, we started out laughing at Bud behind his back. I mean, we were saying, you know, he's going to come in with his tape recording. He's so sure it's aliens. And Dr. Klein thought it was a crime that I'd been assaulted. And so did I. At that point, I had not, I had no, I had no, I had the big black eyes and all that stuff in my head, but Bud had been really careful to shield me from any awareness of any of that. So that I didn't, you know, I still was thinking it's a crime. And he had, we, I'd gone to him simply because of the fact that I had read in this book by Jenny Randalls, science and the UFOs, that part of it was a story that sounded like, what happened to me, only it was about alien abduction. And Bud's name was mentioned. So I said to myself, I'll explore this avenue, because, you know, I'm not going to just, I'm not going to leave any stone

unturned here. And Anne and I went and met him, and he was very sweet and very kind and very convinced that this was real. And we basically left the house thinking, you know, he's a nice guy, but he's definitely gotten somehow mixed up about reality. Well, misguided. Yeah, not even, yeah, exactly. But then he calls me up, he wants to talk again, we go back over, he wants to hypnotize me, he's all excited, and that's when it led to Dr. Klein,

and all of a sudden things changed, because Dr. Klein said to me, Whittley, this happened to you. He said it just like that. And anyone that talked to him, even privately, and I, people, a reporter from the New York Times was going to write a big story about it that didn't because Dr. Klein said it really happened to him. I'm standing by that. And therefore, the story didn't appear in the New York Times because New York Times only had one viewpoint. It's all a big laugh.

So they didn't publish the story. They spiked it instead. Wow. Oh, that's, the media's, the intellectual world is having a lot of trouble with this. Because they feel, I mean, I did too. I am an intellectual, I think. I mean, maybe my wife wouldn't agree with that, I'm sure, but nevertheless. No, I'm kidding.

She would. But you feel like we're at the top of the food chain. Our scientists and intellectuals, we know the best. things there are to know. And now suddenly someone comes along who's far further up on the food chain and not only that, they don't want to talk to us. They just want to talk to the hoi-polloy. I'm sorry, but Mr. New York Times reporter, he ain't going to like that and ain't going to buy into that. And so it's hard. It's still very hard for most people in the sciences and the academy and in the intellectual community to get their heads around this.

Yeah, and it's one of those things of, you know, constant shifting goalposts and where the soft sciences, it seems, you know, there's that push to get a lot of the respected quote-unquote names in the soft science community to acknowledge this. But then once they do, then it's to even bring it into the hard science. Like there's all these different hurdles that one has to go through to even just be. you know, able to be shared on one of these platforms like the media. But that's, I mean, that's the lovely part about what we're doing here today. You know? Yeah. Who needs the New York Times?

Well, actually, we do need our intellectual community and our science scientists to be, to get over what they are experiencing, which is a form of ontological shock, the shock of the new. And they, listen, they are all in it. And even Jake Barber is in it. Without knowing it, Jake Barber is, of course, the guy who has been out recently on an insider. He's engaged in various ways with the phenomenon on the secret side. So he says. What do you make of that?

One of the things Jake Barber said was that he had experienced being possessed by a very, felt to him like a very sacred feminine presence. And he then said, I don't feel ontological shock. I feel ontological relief. And Jake was engaged in aggressive actions toward the visitors. I know them well. I've been with them for years now. He was not possessed by any beautiful, alien, feminine presence. he was addressed by a weapon which changed his attitude from an aggressive attitude to a compliant attitude. Their weapons don't necessarily hurt you physically.

They alter your perceptions of them in such a way that you can be much more malleable and much more controllable, but also much more. present to the reality of them, which is that they, they're not aggressive here. They're not trying to take over. It's the last thing they want to do. They're here looking for companionship. If they wanted to take over, they could have done that in 10 minutes years and years ago. But the problem they have is how do they expose themselves to us as they are and still enable us to maintain our own sense of value. The problem, the issue is cultural colonization, it's called. Like when the Europeans went out during the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries into the rest of the

world, possessing higher level technology of all sorts, one culture after another either fell to them or became completely directed toward them because, you know, their pots and pans were made of pottery and suddenly here these people were with fabulous cannons and rifles and swords and pots and pans made of metal and ships that could go around the world. They didn't care about their stuff anymore. They wanted that. And this is exactly what's happening right now when you have like the Skywatcher people going out with their technology and their science trying to draw in and attract UFOs. And I think to myself, gee, didn't we do that in New Guinea back in World War II

when the New Guinea natives saw the plains landing and they built their own bamboo planes and their bamboo refrigerators and walked back and forth between them making funny noises thinking that it sounded like what they heard the airmen doing and then open the bamboo refrigerators is hoping for beer to come out. We're not, you know, we got to, we got to have a bigger picture here. Wow. We got to step back and you can't look at this without looking also at yourself and what you really are. And so far, we're having some trouble doing that. Yeah. I mean, when you put it like that, it does seem a little bit silly. It is, yes. Because, you know, we are so technologically, it seems like we are rather.

inferior. And like you said, I think that if the, and I think a lot of people agree with this, too, that if the goal was to do some type of takeover, I mean, it would be so swift you wouldn't even see it coming. I mean, it would be over in a second. You might not even know it because this is, the other problem is we live in a soulblind society. We are anesthetized to our second bodies, to our souls. You're not. I'm not. A lot of people listening are. aren't or they wouldn't be on this, even watching this show. But for the most part, our intellectual community and our scientists are, and in the intellectual community and the scientific cultures, that is part of the culture is to say there is no such thing as that. It's all the physical

and that's it. And that is, that makes you helpless. That means you have no chance. of engaging with the visitors in a way that will be meaningful to you and them. Therefore, they're going to take from you what they want since you can't give it to them. Do you think that the attempts made by the Skywatcher team using psionics, do you think that the response to this, you know, psionic, you know, sionic calling, whatever it is, this summoning or whatever it is they're doing, do you think that's genuine or do you think this is more like a prosaic explanation in that if they wanted to contact them, it would be in different ways.

Or do you think that this phenomenon, you know, will contact you physically, like with these sightings that they've had? So far from what I've seen from their videos, they have drawn in living beings that are living in this, in our atmosphere that we have never recognized as animals. We don't recognize their existence because they live in the upper atmosphere and they're hard to see and there's no way to detect them because our radars and so forth will look right right through them.

If you draw their interests, they will come to you. But then again, I mean, frankly, who cares about orb tourism? There's more to it than that. You know, a psionics guy from the government gets an orb in, and everybody's very excited. But I'm sorry, but there's more. Living with the visitors is a fundamental change of life. The first thing you have to do, there's two things you have to do first. You have to recognize your soul in its humility and its truth.

and you have to recognize that you are potentially an equal partner, or they're not going to treat with you. They will not, they don't want servants, they don't want supplicants, they want companions. That is so interesting. What do they fear, the visitors? They live in, with too much knowledge. They are, first, they're alone.

There's essentially one mind there, and it extends across all kinds of different forms and has all kinds of different levels to it. It is like our minds, it's got levels of it that are internally contradictory. In other words, that there's parts of it that are not in agreement with other parts of it, and that's true of you and me, too. But it's on a massive scale here. But one of the reasons is so difficult to look into their eyes, it's like they burn you out, is that you're not looking at the individual.

You're looking at the whole being that's in those eyes, the whole being. And it is tremendous. It is ancient. And boy, does it ever know you very well, very well indeed. Is there some type of gatekeeping mechanism that, like as you had mentioned like there's a few things that you have to sort of align yourself with in order to perhaps communicate with the visitors but is there some type of you know immune response that they have in their collective consciousness that gate keeps people from

accessing them is there is there some is there an entity there is there an energy there that that that prevents this communication from happening is there something you have to do to get past that threshold? Like, what does that look like? Well, that's really an interesting question. And I've never heard it stated quite that way before. I think that there is a barrier that is generated probably by both sides to an extent in the sense that they can be afraid of us. And they definitely can be. They're very careful physically. And when one of them will physically come into a context I'm familiar with, this individual, if it's one of the biological ones that you're about five feet tall, we'll have guards with them. And the guards will be, interestingly enough,

not only guarding them physically, but also guarding them on another level, because there's more to the contact than we can even see. In other words, there's other levels that don't want that to happen. And there will be, it's a very fraught. situation. So in that sense, there's gatekeeping, but it's almost as if it's part of nature, part of the essential difference. You know, let me kind of cut to the chase with regard to the difference. They are a non-vocal species and a non-vocal world. There's more than one form there, but they universally do not have voice. Like I heard one of the so-called insiders saying,

oh, yeah, they have a language. Oh, no, they do not have a language. They have neither sirens nor vocal cords. They cannot speak. They can make sounds. And as I talk about in the fourth mind, those sounds are very powerful. We'll get into that.

We'll get into that later, yeah. But they are a non-voice species. We are voiced. That means they basically have a single mind because they're telepathic. It's a very complex mind, as I said earlier. It's quite complex and has different levels. It's contradictory in places. We are individual minds.

So to them, this planet is packed with billions of completely separate individuals. We have voice and we have voice. we have limited ability to communicate with each other. So we're constantly in a state of turmoil. And they've told me that their experiences, that voiced species don't last long, but they are incredibly creative. They're not creative like we are. They don't, there's just only one mind there. So how creative can it be? And so, yeah, they love us and they want to be with us, but they don't expect us to last. Yeah, it's something you don't really think about very often is this idea that like if these extraterrestrials all possess some type of, you know, I hate using the term hive mind because it's not a hive mind.

It's not. No. But it's a collective consciousness where they all have access to, you know, the greater, you know, the greater mind, the fourth mind. It's just so interesting to think that that might be the defining factor. That might be our uniqueness is just how we communicate and how we individualize our own content. consciousness versus, you know, realizing that we're all part of this, this, this greater scope. So yeah, I mean, that is very, very interesting. And maybe this is a perfect time to segue into the fourth mind. This book was really interesting because I had done a deep dive on this channel. A lot of viewers know this. We'd read through this molecular biologists report on you know, the autopsy and the genetic material and the physiology and even partially the philosophy of these, as he put it, these EBOs.

Yeah. And it was, for me, there was something about it that resonated true. And I think for a lot of my audience as well, not only on the technical jargon, which I couldn't even, you know, I had to, I was, I was on my chat GPT, I think half the time. just trying to figure out what the heck he was saying about the, especially, you know, when it came to the genetic makeup and speaking about, you know, the, I think that the DNA strands were were made in palindromes and it was just very, very interesting stuff. But they mentioned, you know, the individual anatomy very specifically. Yeah. And, you know, we can, we can start

here with the vocal cords because I thought that was so. interesting. They have lung sacks like birds. Right. And this diaphragm that allows for like this high pitched humming or vibration. It's, it can be low too. They can change the pitch. They can change the pitch to low as well. Yeah. Well, that would make sense because they also have in their ear this, their cochlea is like shaped differently inside their ear, which allows, which would allow one of the viewers had mentioned this for lower vibrations. They can hear a spectrum of sounds that we couldn't hear. Right, right. They can hear infrasound. So that could, essentially, they could be communicating with each other without moving their lips, without making a sound to our ears and to us, it would seem pretty much identical to telepathy.

Well, interestingly enough, you know, I've had lots of telepathy with them and also with people who are I think have been bred by them to have telepathy because these people are also unvoiced. And if you go to Kai Dickens' show the telepathy tapes, you'll find that the spellers who are regular people, but who are unvoiced, have telepathy. And, you know, I could do telepathy with speakers. Now that I know they have it,

I had a wonderful experience with a, with a, I'm spellers, with a speller in Mexico a few weeks ago standing on a street corner and I could see she was a speller because she was with her mother and there was, she looked like, she may have not have been a speller, but she was unvoiced. And so I interrogated her telepathically and she immediately turned around. She was really surprised and I said, don't worry, don't worry. And then, but we tried to do it verbal telepathy and she didn't speak English and I didn't speak Spanish, so that didn't work. So we did it visually, and she shot me a picture of her dog. And this is how this works, a dog, probably her dog. But the thing was, the dog looked just like the dog I had

when I was a little boy. And I don't know whether she was giving me a picture of her dog or saying, I'm really friendly. So I showed her a picture of my dog. And the two dogs reacted to each other. That is to say, we had a friendly experience together. See how that worked? It's how different it is from the way we think. And then the light changed and they went on across the street and my bus came and that was that. How was that?

It's so cool. So fun. Wow, that's interesting. Yeah, because, you know, often we see telepathy through the lens of, you know, our own anthropomorphization or our own interpretation of what that would look like through the human experience. They think, oh, telepath must be able to read my mind. Right. And that's not true. I'm not a good telepath. I can't, in other words, I cannot turn on telepathy and read your mind right now. But if you were a telepath and you interrogated me, I would hear it immediately. So if I wanted to. Yeah, it's almost like a, you know, I often, I often think of like if we were to come up with some type

of iOS that were to give, you know, give each other access to one another's minds, there would probably be some firewalls or some notifications that would happen there prior to the, you know, so-and-so wants to send you a message. Do you accept? Getting back to the infrastructure issue, it's possible that there is, I'm sure, one of the things you learn about nature when you're trying to figure out things that are happening. at the edge of known nature, which is where this happens, is that it doesn't waste anything. You know, the principle of least action in physics,

water will never stop on its way down the hill to look at the view. It always takes the easiest possible route. Nature doesn't do things that are useless. Few things, like the man of shrimp's got a lot of sensors that it doesn't appear to need, but that's rare. So it's maybe true that they have ways of communicating with each other and possibly with us and interrogating us using infrasound that would seem to us like telepathic communication because we can't hear infrasound.

Yeah, Charles Hall had also spoken about that when he'd mentioned the tall whites, that they also spoke in these tones. that you just could not hear, and it would look identical to telepathy. Well, I had one experience in my life with the tall whites that really annoyed my wife, and I'll tell you the story if you want me to. Absolutely. Okay, here's a situation. It's in the middle of the communion tour.

I'm going out and getting beat up as the rectal probe man and being asked like, what about your anus, you know, and stuff like that endlessly. and I'm pretty tired of it, as you can imagine. And fortunately, people didn't care. They were interested in the book, not in the bullshit, which was nice. In any case, I wake up because my head, I'm not in my bed. I'm clearly on the couch in the living room. And I'm thinking, did I go to sleep on the couch?

I opened my eyes and looming up above me is this enormously tall woman looking down at me and a man behind her looking over her. and he's so tall, he's like having problems with the ceiling. And she has a little thing in her hand, and she goes, makes a sound, very high sound, pitch sound. And then I, at that moment, hear them say, and I thought they were talking, but I would assume it had something to do with the sound

and stuff I don't understand or didn't then. What can we do to help you? and I blurted out, and since you've talked to Charles Hall, you know why I did this. I did not know it at the time. You could show me one of your children. And the next morning I told Anne the story, and she goes, what? I said, I just blurted it out. I don't know why.

She said, Fritley, I'd like to hit you over the head with a book. And I said, well, wait a minute. She said, you could have asked for a UFO. You could have asked for anything. And you ask for that. Who cares? Well, it turns out they do care very much. And I did not know that I was asking for their trust at the time.

I didn't understand that. But deep inside myself, I knew that. Then I was not asking just for me. I was probably asking for this whole species. Will you trust us? So, weeks pass, I end up at Stapleton Airport in Denver, and I'm waiting for my ride. I'm at the baggage claim waiting for my ride to pick me up to do author tour in Denver. And all of a sudden, a man, a ridiculously disguised gray who looks like at best, she's wearing morticians, wax,

and a cheap dress. And you know, they can, they're, they're so in control of our minds. They can, it's not hard for them to walk among us. You'd be amazed. Anyway, and this gigantic little boy show up. I mean, he looks like a little boy, even though he's like five feet tall. And they, they come in front of me. They're carrying these anemic golf bags, like golf bags that are 50 years old and were never

very good in the first place. And I'm thinking, what the hell is this about? And then I realized that, well, that looks like a gray. And then I see the guy and I know the guy. And I think, oh, my God, what is going on here? Then the gray and the giant little boy start playing patty cake. And they start playing patty cake and their hands start to move so fast it's making like a you can't see their hands.

A crowd gathers. I mean, we're in an airport at the baggage claim area. It's not secret. And people are watching this. and, you know, they are clapping and going on, and then the stops, and the little boy sort of bops a couple of times and turns and walks toward the wall, and suddenly he's just gone. And everybody's looking at each other.

I look over, the man and the gray are gone too. And the guy beside me says, did you see that? I said, yeah, I did. And he said, listen, let's go to the bar. At that moment my ride shows up. I get my stuff, we go to the car, I'm driving out of Stapleton Airport, and I realize they showed me one of their children. That was the boy, the giant little boy. Wow.

Meaning that the answer was yes, we will trust you. We will trust mankind. That's, that would drive me insane. Why? I would be questioning what is reality? Like, you, because you, you, you experienced this initially. Yeah. You had this question of whether or not there was something wrong with you.

Because I think that's the path of least resistance to, you know, pre-ontological shock to think, oh, I mean, if this is me, then this is all explainable. Well, yeah, that's what I went, went to first. Yeah. And so after going through that, now, I mean, you're forced to believe that this is reality. I mean, that's just... Yeah. But by that time, I was kind of skating along that. Now I'm comfortable with it.

That's why then I couldn't have told you the meaning of that experience, that it was about trust. Now I can understand that. It's like, you know, I wrote this, published this book, Ann and I did years ago, called the communion letters, which has got a lot of letters in it and an analysis of the letters. But recently, I published another book called Them, which has got 11 of the letters analyzed the way I know based on the knowledge I have now much more deeply, much more clearly. And it's the same with that experience. I have a much deeper, more clear understanding of what was really going on.

Like the man that was there, I don't talk about him much. he's passed on now but he was very deeply involved in this quite honestly with the Defense Department. Wow. And by the time I was seeing him in the, I had already had a couple of contacts

with him prior to that. So I was comfortable in a way that I hadn't been before. In other words, I was no longer kind of at sea with this. I had the fact that that he and Dr. David W. Webb, who I can talk about, had both been very frank with me about the fact that I was engaged in a real experience.

So I had some anchors, some grounding at that point. Yeah, which is, I think, vital for your own, you know, your own sanity. Absolutely. And they came forward because of that. And they've been, like Dr. Webb, people always hate the government. but Dr. Webb was deeply involved in this. If you look at David W. Webb up on Wikipedia, if they don't take it down because I'm talking about him, you will see that he was a space scientist, and he was involved with every alphabet agency there was, which he told us at the time. And he introduced me to an allergist who gave me allergy medication,

so I wouldn't get allergic reactions when the grays were around. In other words, they knew perfectly well what was going on. And he was extremely encouraging. He said, Whitley, go for it. Do your best. Do your best. Huh. Do you think, do you think there's still learning? The government?

No. Oh, the gray's? Yeah. Oh, yeah. They wouldn't be here if they weren't interested in us. So they're learning from us. This is a cornucopia. Every single one of us is different.

Every single one of us is different. So when they engage with a human, being. They're engaging every time with a new person. And there are obvious parameters, limitations and parameters that, you know, we have limitations like, you know, we have a limited amount of intelligence, and so do they. But they are essentially one mind. It's a very complex mind, as we talked about earlier, but it's one mind. Now suddenly, here they are in this beautiful verdant planet full of all kinds of minds and not just human minds. There's all sorts of minds here. As far as I understand from them, the plant world has very complex, a consciousness that the planet is

like a, like a, the most incredible, brilliant renaissance painting of consciousness you can imagine. It's a super conscious, incredibly sacred place with these duffuses screwing around with it. And we're the duffuses. And, you know, they have a sense of humor. It's a little dark, admittedly, but they do have a sense of humor and they do not want us to die because we're so much fun, frankly. We're tremendously entertaining to them and tremendously valuable. And, you know, what my great fear is, that if they think that we're going to kill ourselves off,

which they've already told me the voiced species are very vulnerable to self-destruction, they might intervene. And if they do intervene, they're not going to be happy about it. The reason being that as soon as they intervene, cultural colonization happens and we redirect all of our interests toward them, Right. That's what Skywatcher is about and why it makes me kind of nervous because they're obviously out there spending a lot of money trying to get technology from that. Right.

You know, and that was not effective in New Guinea, and it's not going to be effective here either. Yeah. Because we're here in terms of technology and they're like here. And, you know, they come down to here so we can see them. And then we go up and we think we're there, but then they're here again. Yeah. Yeah, technology that we're not quite ready for. It's not technology is the reason.

I always say to these people, I've said to them for years, when you look at the materials, please understand they are looking back at you. But they don't understand that. They think, like I was talking just some friends the other day about this, and they were looking at it entirely in terms of they can't get their minds around the fact that these beings are their technology. Like my uncle, when he stuck his head in a UFO at, or the remains of one, I should say, at Wright Pat. This is, my uncle Mickey was an Air Force intelligence officer and he was at right field when the debris was brought in and in the air material.

The Roswell stuff? Yeah, the Roswell debris under General Twining, as was his friend, Arsson, who later became commanding officer at Wright, Pat. And they both talked to me about this after I published communion, apparently being given permission to do so, because it was very classified then as still it is, but they didn't tell me to keep it secret. And obviously, I'm not intended to do that. In any case, he said it had nothing in it except balsa wood struts.

Or he may not have said the balserwood struts. He may have just said it had nothing in it. In other, we couldn't find a motor. I think his exact words, we couldn't find a motor. And when you look at the grays, the small android-type grays, the three-foot-tall ones, their bones are filled with copper instead of bone marrow. And they're part of the technology, clearly. They're part of the ship. That was mentioned by the EBO biologists as well, right?

I think so. I think he'd mention that as well, that there's a heavy, heavy copper. Oh, yeah, that's where I got that. I got that from his document. I've never experienced that directly. Let me be clear about that. But that's, I mean, it's so interesting because there are other documents that also talk about copper being a really important piece of all of this. Yeah.

And like I explained in the fourth mind, you know, the cattle mutilations are so mysterious. But they're actually not mysterious because the blood of cattle is full of copper. Yeah. And they're using that as food. Yeah, the bovine. They're using the same food source we use. use and we're upset about it and they probably don't even realize that. I think they've used humans as a food source from time to time too, but I don't think they do that. I think they figured

out that, you know, either the ones that were doing that shouldn't have been doing it or they didn't understand what we were. So there's this other thing that it mentions about a film over their eyes and the cover, you know, obviously the cover of communion features the film, which is over their eyes. But then the new fourth mind cover, you sort of have the veil that's on their eyeballs lifted. Well, you know, I have maybe glimpsed that. It's mentioned specifically in the Reddit document. And a friend of mine who is a deep experiencer called Steve Neal, who's also a wonderful artist and you look up Steve Neal on the internet and you'll find some cool stuff. Anyway, he's seen them, he says, without the eye covering very clearly. And when he said that,

I had a vague memory of maybe seeing it myself. And then I read it in the Reddit document. And I think, I thought, this is maybe the next step. Because without the eye covering, See, the thing is when you look at them, when I look at you, I'm looking at a guy. I look into your eyes and I see a lot of things. But when you're looking at grace, you're not looking at a guy. You're looking at an entire being that not only is huge but also ancient and bigger than you and knows you really well. And that is appalling. So that's with the eye coverings on.

With the eye coverings off, it must be whoa. So you think the covering isn't just for, you know, their sensitivity to light. You think that it might be more to mask a little bit of that shock that we might feel? Yeah, I think it might blow us up. Yeah. I think we might, it might blow us up. Wow. I'd just be too much.

I'd love to see if I could do it. To see their eyes? Yeah. They've been around some friends recently and physically. Really? Yeah, that's not unusual in my life. How could it be? I know so many people are in contact.

But with the eye coverings. And I was thinking to myself, I was thinking, guys, come do it without the eye coverings. if they're real. We'd like to see that. So maybe it'll happen. Is that how you communicate? Is that simply just by thinking? Yep. That's one way. That's one way. And then through the meditations is another way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I do the sensing exercise where you take your attention to your body and you change then. Your mind opens up a little bit and your body. My wife, taught me that you glow when you do that in the other level of reality and you could be seen.

And so you get good at that and you really can control the degree to which you can be seen. And so that's how to communicate with it because they will notice that immediately. A moth to a flame. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's not that they don't want to be here or they don't like us. They're here because they do want to be here and do like us. Do you think that it is their modus operandi to sort of have us learn about them? I think they'd like that.

I think they want companions, as I say, but they'll take slaves if they don't get companions. I know them too well. What does that mean they'll take slaves? That means soul slaves. They means they'll take over your soul. You know, if you're relentlessly denying the existence of your own soul and pretending this is all technology and science, as we understand it and so forth and all of that, they're eventually going to just say,

well, hell, this soul is valuable to us and we're taking it. We're taking it over. And you won't have communion. You will become a, you will become their, I don't know, there's hardly a word I can think of to explain it because we have so few words to explain the life of the soul. The second body is what I'm talking about. which, you know, if you've been out of your body, you know what that is.

I do, yeah. Yeah, exactly. They'll take that. And listen, it's got so much in it. It's so much in it. Like, I've had a couple of lessons from them that have opened me to parts of my soul memory that have been the most extraordinary, wonderful experiences. like past life?

No, no. I, no, I, they've never, I don't have, I have a few memories of probably past lives in ancient Rome and maybe one or two others. But that hasn't been part of it in my experience very much, not with them at all that I'm aware of. But this life, yes, two things. one when I they called me to come to be with them in the woods at the cabin in 1988 I guess or 89 and and and I got scared wouldn't go down there when I they were there

physically waiting for me and when I went back to the house I got this sense of one of them being invisible but in the room with me and the next thing I knew I was plunged into what initially seemed to be an extremely strange space. I saw these sort of tapering columns going up, and I couldn't tell where I was. I was kind of gliding along. And then I realized as I looked up that it was my mother's desk from when I was a baby in her room when I was a baby. She had this desk, and I recognized it.

I'm looking at it. I can recognize it right now in my head as I'm talking. And I was taken back to the moment. when I first walked. And, but not as a baby mind, my adult mind was placed in my baby body experience so perfectly that I was like a baby with an adult mind for a few seconds. And that degree of knowledge is also why those eyes are so hard to look at because there's nothing about you.

They don't know. And this is also their problem. This is their great blessing, their sacredness, their problem. Why is it their problem? Because they know so much they can never be surprised. Hmm. They can't be surprised. It's hard to fathom that, you know, we're so used to this condition.

Yeah, we're so used to because we're in the opposite state. We are always surprised. You and I are sitting here talking and every second is new. is new. Our minds are working. For them, this would be like riding on rails. I think, and this could be my imagination, and I always like to be really careful about this stuff, because I'm describing things at the edge of experience, and I have to be very, very aware of that. But I think they might have taken me down a path one time of being like them. And it was like riding on rails. My future had no meaning. I had no meaning. There was no experience. It was just all there already.

And it lasted a few seconds and it was just awful. Another thing that happened like that, it didn't happen to me. It happened to my supernatural co-author and friend Jeff Kriple. Jeff is a scholar and he's the creator of the archives of the Impossible at Rice University. And he, he's really into this. And an extraordinary man. He's, he collected, got all the letters that Anne had collected from everybody who had written us and they got them archived professionally there and everything. He's a wonderful guy.

Anyway, we're at the Esselent Institute. They have these private conferences at Esseland from time to time with it. They get a bunch of people of, you know, and it's the sort of chapter house rules where you don't ever talk about it outside. So I'm not going to talk about it in detail. But suffice to say, he wanted to stay in the room with me because at that time, the visitors were often showing up physically and where I was. And they showed up that night. One of them did for a very brief time and tapped me on the shoulder. do the three o'clock a.m. meditation, which was going on big time then, and so I did it and went to

bed, back to bed. They showed up for Jeff a few minutes later, about maybe an hour later, and he described it as this way, that he heard, it was like he heard suddenly the crashing of glass all around him, and then he heard his own voice cry out from within him, oh, my God. And what was happening is they drew closer, he was being drawn out of the stream of time. We don't want to go there because we're here having experience. The body is giving our souls, feeding our souls experience. Our souls are being enriched by the experience of life. And if we end up like them, outside of the experience of life, like fishermen on the shore instead of the fish in the water. We are in trouble because we can know our futures no longer have any power to surprise us.

The energy is gone. And Jeff felt that. And that's why his soul cried out from within him, oh my God, and why he was so frightened. And, you know, I had to learn, it took a long time to learn that they know it too. And they're not here to take us out of the stream of time. They're here to share our experience in the stream of time. So, you know, I relax now and I'm much more comfortable with them because I know they're not going to do that to me.

They don't want to. They want to do the opposite. They want to share my experience with me. And I can open myself to them. It's not hard. That sounds so bleak to have this. It's bleak enough to where they would go across the whole universe looking for help. Right.

I think it's damn bleak. Do you think that they would also not only monitor life, but in some way, be responsible for it? They're in a pickle right now. The pickle is, it looks like we're probably going to self-destruct. And they've already said that this happens to voice species. They don't want us to self-destruct. Because I also think that since it has, happens to voice species so frequently, we're probably rare and valuable. So what do they do?

The closer they come to us, the more we become aware of them, and the more danger there is that we end up like them, that, you know, we go to them instead of them coming to us. So they don't want to culturally colonize us by showing themselves. But if they don't show themselves, we're liable to self-destruct. So they're really in a quandary right now. They really are. Catch-22 situation. It's a catch-22 situation. Yeah. In this document as well, they talk about something very profound near the end of it. It gets quite philosophical. And, you know, you're not one to shy away from philosophy. No.

They mentioned this apotheosis, this critical mass that they are attempting to what seems like they're attempting to reach. I've read another document as well about another, you know, sort of whistleblower that had come clean on one of these forums who had also mentioned a similar motive about. about this apotheosis, but was indeed to end up, you know, this sounds so far out there, but to, not unlike what you were saying, but to feed consciousness, to feed the conscious field. Yes. Through experience. That's absolutely right. That's exactly what we're here for.

Like we're mining consciousness on a certain level. Yeah, well, we're mining experience in order to feed consciousness. In order to feed consciousness. That must be really clear here, because that's important. And so to what goal? Because it seems like, like, what is that? What does that critical mass look like? What does that end game look like?

What is that apotheosis? Is it the universe becoming self-aware? Like, what's the end look like? You have to look at yourself. It's you becoming self-aware. You, Chris. Hmm. That's it.

Because believe me, if you become self-aware, really self-aware, and stay in the time stream, this is the next step for all of humanity and for them. That's what they want. They want us to wake up to ourselves and still stay in the time stream and be vividly aware in a way that we are not. there are levels of emotional experience that we don't touch, that are the levels of real true being, that people have touched in the past sometimes a little bit, but we all have to do it.

And the only way to do that is to begin to think of Chris or Whitley or anyone is not as the person, but as the instrument that the person, the being is using, to be in the social community of the species. There is a level of self, of being, I should say, outside of the self, then that's what they want us to be able to take our attention to that level. And when our attention is there,

looking at the self as it moves through time, there's room then for them to share with us and share their own experience with us and share our experience without them overwhelming us or possessing us or destroying the journey of the soul. This is communion. My wife knew it, by the way, from the very beginning. She titled the book Communion because she knew this. And who the hell was she? She was a kid from Ann Arbor, Michigan. No one's special, and I was a kid from San Antonio, Texas. No one's special.

Yet some kind of critical mass occurred when we came together and look at what we made. She made this. She made the word, communion. Do you think there are more planets like this one? I know there are, but I also know that a lot of them don't last long. A lot of them don't last long. That's what they say. that the voiced planets with voice species are very rare and valuable.

And the reason is that, you know, and look at our political world and we're half, you know, we're a heartbeat away from nuclear annihilation at any given time. Our politics are all completely crazy. It's all divided up into these different countries. But like Edgar Mitchell said, when you look at it from above, where are the countries? Yeah. Where is this? What are we doing? I mean, I'm in Canada right now. I was happy to come to Canada because it seems to be a little bit more peaceful at the moment than the United States. And I thought, oh, it'll be nice. And I thought, I didn't do anything. I'd just got in an airplane and got off the airplane. I'm in the same planet. This is so crazy. Yeah. I would agree with that. What role does love play in all this?

Because you hear about it a lot, you see it a lot. You know, if you look at all depictions of angels, angelic beings or even Jesus, you know, it's this emanating beam of love coming from this beating heart to the center of this canvas or whatever. It's always, it seems to be a really important factor or maybe even a defining, difference, you know, between us and them or something unique about it. But how does it fit in? Anne became enlightened toward the end of her life. And when I say it, it wasn't like fireworks in the sky or bells and whistles.

It was a quiet change in her inner being that I could feel very much. and, you know, so I know and too well to say, well, oh, are you enlightened? She would have given me the finger for sure. But I asked her, what is enlightenment? And she says to me, enlightenment is what happens when there is nothing left of us but love. That's love. That's what it's about. But what kind of love?

We think always in terms of the kind of. of sentimental love that grew up in the Victorian era and sort of spread with the discovery of Valentine's Day and Valentine's cards and kissing and that kind of love. There's another kind of love. There's the kind of love that holds the universe together. Objective love, the urgency to be. Touching that love, it opened your heart in a whole new way. And then you understand. understand what this universe is about and where it's going. And that's where it's going. How important is it to, for the universe, do you believe, and through these beings themselves, to self-express? I think it's important for us to self-express because we can. Because we can. Yeah, I'm not so sure the grays really can, not as individuals. They do have individual personalities and personality types. but they're all the same mind.

Like, I've never seen a work of art, heard a bit of music, anything like that, poetry, anything like that from them. Because, you know, if you're entirely alone, where would that come from? And the answer is there's no, it might be happening to them now, by the way. As they engage with us,

I have a feeling they will find their own poetry. I know they like poetry. I write poems and they have enjoyed my poetry at times. Again, I guess that comes down to the idea of not being able to be surprised, you know, when art hits you a certain way or a new song hits you a certain way or a poem or a movie or an image. It's unexpected and it's welcomed, but for them it's just unsurprising. If they already know it's going to be there, it is, yeah. But if they can get in this and be with us, then they can be surprised by it.

Are they, is that something, because now we're going into territory of like, you're familiar obviously with David Jacobs. Oh, sure. I know. And the hybridization stuff. Right. Is that something that they're interested in pursuing as well, like the, this idea that, you know, they can sort of use the human body as containers in a certain way to.

to feel? One of the things that happens is people always think, oh, they must be so far ahead of us and so far advanced. But as I point out in the fourth mind, a lot of their genetic work is not all that good. And part of that, I think, has to do with the hybrids. They are real, period. Whether they're hybrids are not, or something else, what they are are human beings who, who, the males have Kleinfeldor syndrome. They are not, in other words, they don't fully express puberty

and they just grow older, but still look like, like I said when I first saw, started to talk about the boy that lived in our woods behind our house. He was like an 11-year-old, but you looked at him closely and he was weathered. And that was because he had

Kleinfelders syndrome and hadn't grown, hadn't become pubescent. They are all unvoiced. They cannot speak. I presume they don't have vocal cords. They are fluently telepathic. They are extremely autistic. And they are in trouble, basically.

I've seen them in a shop stealing things while controlling the minds of all other people in the shop. and I don't know how they live. I mean, I do know some of them live very hand-to-mouth existences. They're out in the desert and, you know, shacks and things. It's not a good life, I don't think. What proof is there of these hybrids existing? In my life, plenty.

Is there any... But physical proof that I could point to. I, given that they are telepathic and do not want to be found, I think it's probably impossible to find them. Have you ever gotten confirmation from a government agency that some type of hybridization program was happening, whether solely from ETs or in conjunction with human beings? No, I haven't ever inquired at that level. I, you know, my, my experience of the government is very sketchy and iffy. You know, as I said earlier, Dr. Webb was very much helpful and so was the man at Stapleton. But the government right now, the people who are coming out are really wary of me.

I've had a couple of instances where there's some kind of mind control thing. I don't know what it is. It goes on a couple of years ago, a guy says to me, you know, I had the weirdest thing happen, Whitley, and he was a person who had been friend of mine and also close to a lot of people in the government. He said, I heard this voice in my head say, don't believe Whitley. Whitley is wrong. And I thought, well, you know, he's probably scared.

and I said, well, I wouldn't worry about it because I think the voice had something to do with you. But then, oh, about a year later, another person says the same thing. And recently, two more people have said the same thing. And so I thought to myself, whoa, you know, no wonder so many of the government people kind of are hands off of me. I like these conferences, the Soul Foundation conference, conferences, I'm not allowed to speak. Authors of the Impossible Conference, anyone, everyone, no Whitley, even though my archive is there, I could not speak. Is that because of some kind of hidden locomotion or not? I don't know.

I mean, not, I don't mean the government telling people, I don't let him speak, but something going on in people. people's heads that they're not aware of. You know, it's preventing them from allowing me to express myself. And all of the government people who are involved in this mostly will not talk to me. Louis Alessando will talk to me, but not go on, not publicly. Jake Barber, no, David Grush, no. I mean, they just don't respond. John, Jim Lakotsky did respond and actually went on my show. But his experiences weren't in the context of his official work. They were outside of that, you know. And so it's a very fraught, very complex situation.

And I don't really know if I'm talking about something that's being done to them, that I'm talking about mind control, or exactly what I'm talking about. But I do know this. I know one hell of a lot about this. and I am somehow kind of being silenced. Not here, fortunately, not on podcast. Yeah, every, so far. Everything's still rolling here.

Everything's still rolling here. Yeah. Not on podcasts, but as far as face to face speaking as, you know, I can go to contact in the desert, which I'm going to do this year. I'll be there as well. Oh, great. Yeah. We certainly see each other.

And I think thanks to them, they in part helped make this, interview possible. Oh, yeah, let's mention contact in the desert. Do not miss it. And I'm just as wild in person as I am on the air, so you'll enjoy it if you hang out with me. Yeah, it'll be my first convention in this space. You're kidding. No, yeah. Well, you come at a good time because, you know, when I first started in this, there's a lot of, it was pretty goofy. It's not goofy now. There's some very, very fine people at that conference. Rich Dolan's going to be there. Let's see, Linda Moulton Howl. Loads of friends. Yep, James Fox. James Fox is going to be there. Chris Bledso.

Chris is going to be there. Yeah, a lot of reputable names in the end. James has just finished an incredible documentary in Brazil. I guess I'm not supposed to talk about it, so I'm not going to say anything except that it's incredible. Yeah, we know that he was in Brazil. You know, he posted about that him. Yeah. And it was, I think, his efforts to reach.

retrieve some footage or some photos or I don't know what. But hopefully it, you know, hopefully it bore fruit and, uh, and I think so. Yeah, he can, he can share some interesting things with us, uh, later this year. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, okay. Where do we, uh, where do we go from here? I want to go back to the anatomy a little bit. Okay.

Because I'm fascinated by this because there's something about the anatomy of these beings that makes it tangible. You know, it goes. goes from the non-physical to the physical. And it's funny that we mentioned James Fox here because one of the more prevalent pieces of information or evidence of these beings roaming this town in Virginia was the smell. Yes. The smell which you've talked about in communion, this smell of sulfur or burnt cardboard or ammonia. It's like this very distinct, potent, putrid smell that engulfed the smell that engulfed the,

this tiny town that you had with your interaction that was also mentioned by this, um, this molecular biologist. And he actually had the science behind it. Yes. Which was, yeah, these pores. Well, that was what started. Someone sent me. I don't remember who it was the Reddit piece, the document, which is in the back of the book completely, the whole documents there. I have no idea who wrote it. I have to admit that I'm no good at the Internet,

and I didn't find it myself. Someone sent me a link saying, you might be interested in this, and that was true. The reason it was true is that the first few words of the document describes something I have observed, but never spoken about that is really weird, which is that with the pores. The document describes the fact that they exude waste through pores in their skin,

and it mentions the odor of ammonia. And, you know, if they have aesthetics at all, they are very different from ours. Let's put it that way. They ain't pretty, and I hate to say that, and I'd probably piss them off, but it's the truth. You think so? You think they'd be offended? I've already done that.

Yes, is the answer. Anyway, when I read that, I thought, my God, I saw that. I know that. I saw that. I saw it in my front yard. What happened was one morning, I got up. It was just, I get up early, and I wasn't expecting to see them, but as I was walking past the windows in the cab,

and looking out over the front yard, there were three of them standing there up near some trees. And I thought, oh, my God. I was trying kind of tame them at the time. Like, I felt they were like they were very birdlike they would disappear when you got near them. So I go creeping downstairs and out onto the front porch. It's still standing there doing this, moving their arms and, you know, I'm trying to figure out what they're doing. And so I stepped down in the yard and they're still doing it, moving their arms. Then there's a telepathic message that they're cleansing themselves, that it's waste matter, and that they're literally, and so then I told Bud Hopkins about this.

And he said, that's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. I told him about the ammonia smell. And it was like they were defecating, but they do it through their skin. And he said, that's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. Well, that has to be your imagination. So I figured, yeah, he's probably right. It is pretty disgusting. Anyway, I'm not going to, I didn't, I dropped.

So years and years and years pass, I pick up the Reddit document. The first paragraph is that described exactly. So I knew the document had some substance. It is not perfect genetically. The genetics in the document, I've had a number of genetic, two geneticists look at it, and they say the man obviously is a biologist, but their impression was either that he's talking about genetics that are very different, which he is, or and or that he's probably retired and not completely up on the science as it is now.

I see. But nevertheless, in substance, the document is authentic in that sense. And to my mind, it's very authentic because I'm the only person, Bud died. He never said that to anybody, never wanted to discuss it again. Yeah. So. And then we heard about it during the. Varginia case. Well, I mean, obviously, this, this come up, I think, I think even...

Yeah, but we didn't hear the idea of the excruiting, yeah, exactly anywhere. No. Just the smells in the Virginia case. The smells and that there were, there were slime. They were oily. They were, well, they are a little oily and slimy. Well, you know, I have to admit that they're not, It's complicated. They're not loathsome.

They're beautiful in a way. Some guys from Bright Pat, I was doing a book signing in Dayton years and years ago. And a couple of, I guess there were Air Force people from Wright Pat came out. They weren't in uniform, but, and they showed me a photograph. This is before digital photography. It's a Kodak. of three of them standing under a tree in a neighborhood. No way.

Yeah, this chalk white light coming down and lighting the top of the tree. And they were so graceful looking. They were so, they looked like little ballet dancers. And that's how they are. They're very, very graceful. And I said, can I keep this? And they said, no, we just wanted you to know you're on the right track. So how strange.

Oh, listen. Do you ever feel like that might have been some type of way to, you know, because obviously people are going to say, well, maybe they just showed you some false information to keep you. No, it was a photograph. Yeah. You feel like it was authentic. Well, in those days, making a Kodak, why would they go to that trouble? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe they were just trying to encourage me and it was fake.

I can't say that for sure. Sure. But it doesn't look fake, not at all. Yeah. And so, okay, so their skin has this quality, which has these thousands of pores, these tiny little pores. But it's also smooth. Their legs are, I've touched the legs of the lady on the cover of communion, or at least I think it was her. I don't necessarily say for sure I can tell them apart.

but there's a definite beauty there. You just have to get past the fact that they're radically different from us. Their odors, their gestalt, their body feel and everything. Their movements are completely different from us. Their hands are very disturbing to be touched by, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But they are there physically. He'd mentioned their hands were their finger. were more like concentric circles in this document.

It said that in the document? I didn't remember that. And I've never seen their, I probably didn't bother with that because I've never seen their fingerprints. Yeah, I mean, hard to notice. Yeah, it wasn't something I would have brought up. But they said creaseless as well.

Their skin was like free of any creases, any like, obviously at their, you know, at their joints, but other than that, there was no wrinkles. Well, the lady, I remember her as looking. old. I asked her at one point, are you old? And she said, I'm old. And what do you think she meant by I'm old? I'm wondering about that. Did she mean I'm 80 or 80,000? You don't know. You don't know. And when she says, I, when they say I, we assume that's the individual you're looking at, talking to you. But it's not. It's the whole mind. Like one time she said to me, I created you. And I thought at the time, how did she create me?

I thought my mother and daddy created me. But then I thought later, if that was the whole mind speaking, maybe she just said that they created us. And maybe they did because they do manipulate genes a lot. You know, maybe the fact that we are so different. I mean, look at us. And any animal, even the closest animals to us, are light years behind us. Like a chimpanzee or an African gray parrot can never even understand the most basic concept of an internal combustion engine at all in any way ever.

That's the difference. Yeah, it might even be greater than that even somehow. It's greater than that. Yeah. It's even greater than that. So, yeah, maybe they have been searching this universe for a companion for a long time. And they created us for that purpose. In which case, if we start to self-destruct, they're going to be peoed.

Peatode or intervene, right? Well, if they intervene, they've made it very clear to me it isn't going to be fun because it'll mean that they no longer, they, you know, it will, it will turn our whole culture toward them. Right now, it's just a few billionaires looking for tech that they can exploit. And the government looking for ways to protect us from them. That's all. It's not important. But if the whole culture turns toward them, then everybody is going to be looking for cell phones from the beyond. And who cares about our stuff when they can cross the universe?

Because there's a lot more than they can do that we don't see. What do you speculate would be one of those things? Instantaneous movement. Yeah, from anywhere. From anywhere to anywhere. In any time, you think too? I don't think time. It doesn't matter in the least.

It's not in time. I talk about that a little bit in Fourth Mind. It's something very, very different. It's not motion as we understand it. It is leaving the whole expression of the world, the physical world, and reintering it in another place instantaneously. And that is a... a remarkable power, and they do possess it.

And we're going to want that very, very badly. Because we think in terms of Earth now, and oh, gee, how cool it would be to get in a flying saucer and go from New York to London in two minutes. How cool would it be to go to another galaxy in a second or under a second? Yeah. See, when hearing something like that in which I assume, you know, in this, this, this universe rich with life. And you would have to assume with the billions of years that this has existed that if someone had, if a race had gotten to a point where,

you know, they were able to escape their own solar system at one point, then they would have eventually reached this level of technology. Yeah. And if they did that, like it, I, my brain always comes back to this is that if I wanted to sustain life outside of Earth, right, and prolong or even just spread the seed of mankind throughout the stars, right? I wouldn't do so by living in a dome on Mars, right? No. I would probably visit planets that already had some semblance of life and inject my own DNA into it. Yeah. Therefore, you know, I could just monitor them and they can live happily on their planet and it's still spreading my seed across the universe. So I would assume, like this is just my assumption, but I would assume that they would have

done this a million times over. If they're old enough, probably so. Like John von Neumann, the Von Neumann machine, Dr. von Neumann was, I'm quite sure, involved in studying this when he was alive back in the 40s and 50s. and he conceived of something called upon that we call von Neumann machine which is basically a ship that it contains the complete expression of a species and it moves around the galaxy looking for planets where it can plant itself And I've even thought that maybe, I've even thought that maybe they are a von Neumann machine who arrived at a planet that contained an unexpected presence, us.

And it's been here ever since trying to figure out what to do because it's programmed to seed the planet with itself. But we are already here. And it wasn't programmed to figure that out. And that's why all the confusion exists. Oh, some strange type of AI. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, this is just speculation. Sure.

I mean, I don't know what anything is true. And it's very important in all these conversations to understand that the absolute ground here in all of this has always got to be questioned. I agree with that. Yeah. But I do think there is value also in speculative thinking. I think there is. I think it's essential. Yeah, I think so, too.

It allows for our imaginations to Rome. And that's where, you know, a lot of these great. ideas come from. That's where discoveries are made. You know, there's another document as well. I referenced this quite a bit in a lot of past episodes and discussions. There is this gentleman who said he was part of a crash recovery and that they were monitoring these underwater, a giant underwater. They call the mobile construction units, MCUs, and that they would build these ships to spec and they would deploy them around the world, almost as if it was, was like some type of autoimmune response to us trying to destroy ourselves.

That was planted here a long, long, long time ago. And I always thought that was really interesting. These ships or these beings or these entities, these visitors or whatever it is, might be part of some intergalactic autoimmune response that, because, you know, we hear about the grays. And there's a lot of speculative notions that put the, them align them more with something like the idea of AI. Yeah.

Biological AI. Is that just because the gestalt of these beings is just so foreign with their collective consciousness that we automatically assume it must be some hive mind AI? Or is there? Do you think that there is? I think it's both. There's two or three forms of the grays. The one form are about three feet tall. Those are the ones that we had at Fort Detrick in Maryland that I discussed the anatomy of in the fourth mind.

I don't know whether they're still there, but I was told by, you know, one of these subrosa types, oh, hey, what do you tell you something? It seems like over here. We've got some bodies at Fort Detrick. And I think, oh. And that was prior to this document? Oh, long time ago. It was years and years ago.

So he was right about that. It was telling the truth. Well, I knew it was telling the truth for various reasons. But the whole sub rosa thing is always laughable to me because I just don't understand, you know, what the heck. Secrecy kind of gotten out of control. I always say I said this to Chris Mellon. I said, who is a nice guy and we'll, you know, chat with me and stuff from time to time. We had a great dinner together once.

And he's sort of kind of edging his way into my end of the thing. Extreme super woo. But he's still, he didn't, he didn't run away. He's a cool guy. Anyway, I said to him, Chris, what you should do is if we have an intact disc, I recommend you put it in the Smithsonian Institution. And he said, I don't think that would ever happen. But I think it should because I think it belongs there.

I think this belongs to all of us. And I think that as far as analogical shock, the average person isn't going to experience that. It's the intellectuals, the scientists, the academics that are going to experience it. And they're just going to have to suck it up. I sucked it up. I was an intellectual who experienced it. And I know a lot of other intellectuals who, in fact, a lot of them are close friends who are also scientists and academics and in this whole space who woke up one night with the visitors in their bedrooms or whatever happened to them.

We all experienced it. And where are we? We are fine. Yeah. Okay. So we have the little ones. Yep. Okay.

We got the, I'm sorry, I sort of got off the track. No, they, I think they are the, I think they are not exactly biological robots because I think that they are linked mentally. Their brains are linked to the tolerance. So they're just like soldiers, like foot soldiers. No, they're expendable extensions of the being itself. Yeah. the real biological being. Like when one of the taller ones comes around, there are guards.

But when the little ones come around, there are never guards. So you think the taller ones have a little bit more importance? No, they are biologically unique individuals. I see. And they are each one of them is a unique personality that is connected to the larger mind. But they are unique people. And they feel like individuals, like the lady on the cover of communion who's got one personality. There are others I've known who have very different personalities.

And yet still connected. And yet I think they all have the same mind. And so the little ones are without personality. They are, and those big brains. They have big brains just like the larger ones so that the larger ones can fully express their minds into them. But if something happens to it, they just pull out. That's why they don't care, you know, when they talk about whistling them up and then shooting them down, they don't care. Right.

Right. Doesn't matter. That makes sense. Yeah. I always thought to myself, they said to me a long time ago that you need to feel that you can defend yourself against us. Otherwise, that's a big part of defeating the idea of cultural colonization is our own sense of independent agency. and we need agency against them. And when I read about, or I guess I heard Jake, maybe Jake was talking about it,

one of them talking about how they would, they'd get a psionics person to call them up and then shoot them down. I thought to myself, they don't understand. They're in a training program. They're being trained so that we will have agency because they can't engage with us unless we feel we have agency. And shoot them up is our agency. even though it doesn't matter to them.

I see. They're doing us a favor. Yeah, in a way. Yeah, in a way. Okay. So, I mean, that's very, very interesting because that does make a lot of sense. I'm just thinking back to the Rolodex of cases and the experiences with these smaller type grays being all about tasks, very task oriented, very emotionless, no personality. And also, again, like you hear about these crashes.

And it seems like the beings like that have crashed or whatever or the ships that have crashed. The more important part was the tech, was the ship, wasn't necessarily the beings. Yeah. Well, they crashed. What they gave us that we could use in those crashes was materials. Robert Sauerbocker, Dr. Sauerbocker was, I contacted. him right before he sadly passed away. Really?

Through Stanton Friedman in the 80s, in the mid-80s, I think in 85 or 86. Just when I was starting to research commune. Dr. Sarbacher was a medal registered Patel Memorial Institute, and he was publishing letters, public letters, saying he was working on the Roswell materials. He wasn't, and he said to me, I don't see any reason whatsoever for this to be kept secret. And, in fact, the fact that it's kept secret is holding us back. In any case, he was the first person who just suggested to me that I should write everything down. He said, write it all down before you forget it because you're going to forget it.

And I thought, what does that mean? I now know how the mind brain works and the brain will expunge things that it can't fit into. It's a relational database. And if it doesn't have anything to relate something to, that will be forgotten. I didn't know that, but he did. So I wrote it all down. I sent it to him. And unfortunately, he died the day it arrived, the day before it arrived.

I never got it back either. I wish I had. But in any case, he said to me that they had made great strides with the metal, understanding how that very thin metal was very strong and thin at Roswell. My uncle said, and Jesse Marcel said that you couldn't even shoot a bullet through. But yet you can crumple it up and it would come right back. Exactly. And my uncle said you could toss it up in the air and it was almost lighter than air. Yeah. So, yeah.

They mentioned that in Virginia as well. In Virginia as well. But the point is this, that and things like radar absorbent coatings apparently come from the materials that we have. have found. Wow. And I have some of that material. I have a little tiny piece of the of this stuff that's layered bismuth and magnesium, which I've been more than willing to offer for study, but nobody picks up on it. I think they're scared of me. Okay. So now we go from these tiny beings, these, by the way, who do they wear clothes these, these little ones? Because we hear both accounts. I don't know. The tolerance have a sheath that they take off. But in other words, they were, they did not, were not wearing the sheath on their arms when they were, I saw them wiping that stuff. But it says, and I don't know if it's biological part of their biology or not. The sheath?

Uh-huh. Huh. I mean, you think of it as something separate clothing. Right. But you just don't know what's going on here. It's, you know, it's too early to make it. any assumptions that what we see is similar to something we would have is a mistake. Yeah, because you would have to imagine, because you hear about this, even in the Aztec crash in New Mexico, which a lot of people think was a hoax, which I don't think was a hoax. I don't think of so either. Yeah, there's far too much evidence there. But they even wore like these blue skin tight jumpsuits.

And you hear about these one-piece jumpsuits. And I think that's always the thing that sort of glitches in my own mind is that I just can't imagine one of these things fitting, like being in a changing room and like it's just so strange. But you know, when you're out of your body, you can walk through a wall. Yeah. As you know. Mm-hmm. And I think that I have seen these bodies come up out of a drawer. Yeah.

And animated. And I think that that's not even the bodies are not their main place. I think they are non-physical, mostly. That they use the bodies to enter the physical world in the same way we put on clothes. Whoa. Yeah. What, okay. So let's talk about these tall beings for a second now.

Yeah, five foot tall. Yeah. You know, the taller beings are the ones that, it seems like, are the ones doing most of the procedures as well. I don't know. one of the taller ones was in the was that being and some of these dark blue iridescent kind of troll-like ones

which could have been the smaller beings in some kind of body armor I don't know but that's what I saw on the night of the communion night and what she I see her as a woman but if I'd been a woman I bet I would have thought of her as a man.

See what I mean? I don't think that's very real, that perceptional level of perception. In any case, she was, I don't know whether she was wearing something or not. I'm not sure. After, okay, there are also cases that we hear about, and this is like a little bit more fringe, perhaps. but we often, because like you touched on, they use these small ones as a sort of means to inject their own consciousness so that they can control them to do these tasks. That's my theory. Yeah, that's it.

And that seems to be what we're observing, right? It seems to be many people's observations. It's a robotic kind of. That's right. Glove. Yeah, exactly. But, but a very high level. sophisticated.

Sophisticated because it has, let's put it this way, it has some kind of rich telemetry because that's what telepathy has to be. It has to be real. I mean, if it's real and it is real. I mean, I've lived with it a long time now. Yeah. And I wish I could live with it more. I wish I could be a, I think it would be so cool to be a, really a, you know, a telepath

and be able to project my thoughts into other people's heads and listen to their thoughts, but I can't do that. In any case, that telemetry. must be very rich. And that would be why the little ones also have big brains, as I said earlier. Right, to receive that. To be able to receive that. And then the biologists as well mentions, like these nodules that were in their brains, too, in this document.

Yeah, which I think we're probably part of the communications process. Right, exactly, like genetically enhanced so that they were able to receive these messages and these commands, so to speak. Okay, so these little ones are task-oriented. They're controlled telepathically, perhaps by the bigger ones. But also now we're going into, you look at Travis Walton. You know, what happened to Travis was he had this run in with these smaller beings. Yeah, I know Travis. Yeah.

And then these human-looking beings seemingly those were the ones that were really in control here, like almost like these little ones were for hire or these little, bodies were, you know, again, used by a different race or a different type in order to do, you know, the mundane work. And then when he met these taller beings, he realized, oh, like, he wasn't sure if this was, you know, now looking back, if this was them projecting a human, you know, coding or something, or if it was just to please him or if, you know, that's what they actually looked like. Yeah, it could have been any of the above. And this could also have a human factor because, as I recall in the document, it says that there's 80% DNA match between us and those bodies that they had. And that's not enormous. I mean, we've got a closer DNA match with cattle, for example.

But it's there. It means that there's a sort of a basic ground of shared ground there somewhere. So could it be that there is a human element to this? Well, that gets me to the implant in my left ear, which was put in in 1989. Oh, I found out recently in one of my books it says 1992. It's a typo, by the way, for anyone who likes to dig deep, it's supposed to be 89. The copy editor just missed it. In any case, in May of 1989, this thing was put in my ear, which I've talked about many times.

I'll talk about it more if you want me to. Yeah, I would love that. Okay. But the point is it was put in by two people, a man and a woman. I've always said there may have been something else standing behind them, but I did not see that. I just had that feeling. The man was a tall guy with beard wearing dark blue suit, dark blue clothes, and, you know, the woman was shorter wearing a dark blue tighter fitting garment.

And it was a totally sounded like a totally human operation in this sense. It was a May evening, the windows were open in our bedroom in the cabin, and there was crunching in the driveway. It was a shale driveway. Two problems here. Three, really. One, there's a big gate. Two, it was night.

There were no car lights involved. The crunching in the driveway meant it was a vehicle. All bad news because it's 11 o'clock at night. And this cannot be good. I had the following. A shotgun, in fact, a big one, a Benelli riot gun under the bed, a pistol in the drawer beside the bed, and a bank of light switches,

which are still there in the cabin, by the way. And you turn them on and fly, Flood lights flood the whole area. Plus, there was an alarm system which was armed. And I wake up because I hear the crunching of the gravel. The next thing I know, I start to go for the lights, but as I'm turning, I see a man and a woman standing at the foot of the bed with the alarm system still LEDing red.

And I hear a voice from the backyard say quietly, condition red. And I forget the lights. I'm going now for the gun. I don't get that far. The next thing I know I'm lying, not on, I was turning to my left, but I'm lying on my right side.

Someone is, presumably the man, is pushing hard against my head. I cannot see. I cannot move my arms and legs. And I'm being, my head's being pushed in waves down into the pillow like this. And the woman's voice is talking to me

very jam. that lasts for a few seconds, maybe 10, 15 seconds. I don't remember the time at all. The next thing I know, there's a flash of light crashing in the woods like somebody running like hell through the woods. I jump up out of bed, grab the pistol, see the LED is still red, think to myself, is that what happened? I'm totally confused because if somebody came in here, the alarm should be ringing.

I run through the house looking for an entry point. I even go in the attic because the alarm system is still on, and I do not find an entry point anywhere. I end up sitting on the bedside thinking, what in hell was that? Then the next morning it becomes obvious because of weird things in the house. Like the alarm system is still, light is still red.

When I go out to get the paper and turn off the alarm on the pad, in the garage, the garage door is wide open, and yet the alarm is not tripped. So I call the alarm guy. He comes over eventually, and he says there's a heavy-duty magnetic field around the door, and I don't understand where it would come from. Because, of course, we don't have such a thing as a free-floating magnetic field, or we didn't, we do now. I think that's public. Anyway, we have a free-floating magnetic field now. I read about it somewhere. In any case, this is impossible.

So he checks it all out, and all he can do is just replace the switches, which he does. We try to get the record from the alarm system. It's all garbled and screwed up. You can't tell anything from it. Then the next day my ear starts to hurt. I realize I've got a something there, a bump. And I already knew Dr. Roger Lear, who in those days was taking out implants in California. And so I say to Ann, these people were real and they put an implant in my ear.

I want it out. She says, no, don't get it taken out. Let's see what it does. You know, I'm the guy on the front line. She was behind the line so she could say that. And I said, well, wait a minute. I don't want to be tracked. She says, nobody cares where to go down to the news, get a newspaper every morning or go out to the 7-11 and get a six-back of here.

So you're not going to be tracked for long if that's what it's about. And I kind of let it be because it will turn on. It turns red. I can't figure it out. It makes a noise every once in a while. finally, mid-90s come, I guess it's 96, I meet a doctor in San Antonio of my hometown, who says, yeah, I'll take a look at it. He thinks it's a cyst.

He doesn't, I don't tell him about the implant. And when he tries to take it out, it's all on tape on my website, by the way, an unknown country, It tries to take it out It goes down into my earlobe On its own It moves through the under the skin And It blows his mind, of course

And he immediately shows up the little incision he's made Two days later it comes back up To where it is to this day It's actually moving now Well he's poking it But it went under It's on the run

It's because I could see it just brightest day and now it's, yeah. See, this isn't uncommon. After Annie passes away, a slit opens up in my left eye, and words come racing through it, and I use it as a research tool to this day. All the books I've written since the Afterlife Revolution have used it as a research tool, and what it does is those words are bringing memory

up from deep in my memory banks to the forefront and enabling me to have a much larger memory than we usually do. It is by far the most valuable research tool I have. It's much better than AI, and AI is very good. Whoa. Can I see this? Yeah, absolutely. I'm so curious. It's right here.

It's been pushed in by the... But you can feel it if you can't see it. Here, may my math? Yeah. You got it? This here. Let me see. My finger's right on top of it.

Huh. You feel it? I feel a little lump. Yeah, that's it. There's also a CT scan of it. Yeah. So, I mean, because, you know, something like that would be a smoking gun, right? If you were to remove it.

Yeah. If you were to have that in your hand like this and show people. That's why they did not. That's why it's protective. It's evasive. It's evasive, yeah. The ones Roger Lear removed all had that evasive quality, too. A lot of them got away.

Lou Elizondo mentioned that in one of his, in the recent book he wrote to Imminent. Yeah. He had mentioned that they had also, that they were sort of encoded, and that's how the body doesn't reject it. Like there's a coating around these implants. Well, I don't know if there's a coating around this one, but the ones Roger excised and that we then studied at Southwest Research in San Antonio unofficially, but with the permission of the director, Bill Mallow, the director of material science, did SMs and stuff for us on the list. No, in no way did Southwest, doesn't, you know, in other words, this was separate. Yeah. So, but he would find them encapsulated in epidermis, but buried in deep muscle tissue.

There is no way the body can produce epidermis in muscle tissue. It doesn't have the genetic encoding to do that. So it was something that was made, and the result is that the epidermis from the person, and you usually find a little scoop mark scar elsewhere on their body where the epidermis was removed from under the surface layer of the skin to make the encapsulation. I see. So it's made of your own body. Yeah.

The encapsulation. The encapsulation. So it doesn't reject. And it doesn't, yeah, trigger any flags. And it would just show up as a cyst. It would feel and look identical to assist. Yeah, exactly. Except if you x-ray it, if it's a real implant, it's got iron in it, it's going to be very clear.

Like the one in my ear, you can see it immediately on the CT scan. clears a bell, a little white disc. That's one implant. In me. Yeah. But there's many implants in people. There's also the nasal. Yeah.

I thought I had one of those, but I had MRI scanned and they didn't find one. Yeah, because that seems to be one of the more popular implants that you hear about is this, the long rod that is then inserted. Which is. Amazing. Amazing because, you know, the nose is not exactly absent bacteria and viral particles. To be able to put something up there and goes up into the upper part of the nasal cavity or maybe even into the brain means that they have absolute control over the potential for spreading an infection into the brain. Yeah, but also, I mean, that would make sense that even in this, the biology report, that, you know, most of their muscles are all in their hands.

Like they don't use their forearm muscles to control their hand movement. They have very precise. Their hands are their finger. They've got four fingers, the ones I have seen. And that's also what's described in the document. And they move like snakes. They look like snakes when they're moving. Like individually?

Well, they, oh, yeah, they can move in them individually. But they've got all those extra additional joints. So they're very snaky. You know, when the old lady, the communion lady, she's still around, I'm pissing her off, calling her the old lady, please, excuse me, in any case, she was coming around the house a lot in the late 90s, I guess in 80, I mean, late 80s, 88 and 80, back in there, I think she was very pleased with communion and she was hanging out there. and we didn't see her much.

You get glimpses over. She was very careful about that. But one time my little boy brought up a friend who had an accident and had hurt his, had a scar on his lip from something that he had done as a little boy that she apparently thought was very careless.

And she did not want this boy in our lives. And all the night he was there, she kept coming to my bedside and I would open my eyes and I would never move when she was nearby never willing. I was not under control and I would see her

and she'd have this smoke pouring out of her outside of her mouth and then she'd project scary images of my little boy going over to his house in a cab in Manhattan and the cab driver kidnapping him and all this stuff designed to scare me in the morning

little boy the bed of the guest bed in the boy's bedroom was across the hall from the door and my son's bed was in the corner so he could see the door and apparently all night she had been opening the door and tapping with her nails and in the document it doesn't say says they don't have nails but she definitely had them and scraping up and down the door with these snake-like fingers and he said that I he'd seen that all night and he said mr. Fever would you please take me home I took him home and he never saw him again he described

him as snakes too didn't he yeah yeah he was scary poor kid I mean he was just a nicest kid in the world and so bright but she she did not like him hmm no reason for that that you know of well yeah because he had that accident and she thought he was careless just that that that was the sole reason the only reason I know I can think of, because the smoke involved, he'd burned his lip. Right. That smoke coming out was indicating to me that that was what she was concerned about. Interesting.

All right. Here's a bit of a, here's a bit of a strange question. We hear about, okay, these taller ones, dealing with the smaller ones. We hear about some human ones, like the ones involved in your implantation. or the ones involved with Travis. But then we hear of mantis type. Is this something you're familiar with? No, I can tell you all I'm familiar with is the grays in two forms.

The tall whites as adults and children, male and male and female adult, male child, and these dark blue troll-like figures, which may be small grays in suits or maybe an entirely different species. And humans associated with this group, them in some way. Yeah. But what that is, I don't know. Okay. And I have seen one person known as a Nordic under circumstances where I knew for certain it was not a human being.

How did you know? I can't get into that. But suffice to say it was in a situation with a, it was in a situation where I was once involved in this with some people from the Defense Department. I don't want to get into it too deeply because they've all passed away, but I was told at the time not to get, you know, not that I could tell the story, but not to get into detail. So I'm not going to get into detail.

he was a Nordic and I met him briefly and had a brief exchange with him where he told me some he said an interesting thing actually he said never get into a war with the grays because they'll never let you win and they will never let you stop fighting and every time I hear these guys shooting at him I think to myself they could be playing with fire you know they They need to be aware of this, but I don't think they are. Was this, and like, pardon me for asking more, but the Norda thing really interests to me, but is there, was there anything particular about this being that felt unhuman? His eyes were, they had, they were green, as I recall, and he didn't, look, I've heard descriptions of Nordics.

that are much less human-looking than what I saw. But that was what I was told he was. He was more human-looking than other descriptions of the Nordics I've heard. And I thought the tall whites were Nordics for a while. For that reason, I was very confused about that. But he was more human-looking, and he was not a lot taller than I was. He was probably about six, seven or seven. so. And he was very sweet and there was, he was almost a ghostly feel about him. Like his eyes were

weird. And as I say, he spoke physically, as I recall. I don't recall him being telepathic, or at least not addressing me telepathic. Was an American accent? I don't remember any accent, so I would assume so. And blonde or? Blonde, yeah, blonde. Tall, blonde, green eyes. Yeah. And you were, they told you that this was a Nordic.

He told me. He told you. No, he said, I am not of you. Of you, is what he said. Of you. Of you. Of you. And then afterwards, the man involved in this said that he's what we

call a Nordic. And I said, where is he from? And he said, we're not sure. I said, what do you mean? I had heard by that time, and I had said, aren't they from the Pleiades? And he said, interestingly enough, he said, in that direction we believe. But that's, that's it. That's what I've seen. There's a lot of, you know, I mean, connections to be made with the Nordics as well throughout But history with, you know, obviously the Nazis in Operation High Jump and, you know, the Arctic. Well, it gets all into this kind of racist conspiracy theory crap that I don't, I don't go down that. But, I mean, even in, if you look at the Italian crash that happened, the magenta crash in 33, the bodies retrieved there were like incredibly tall, blonde, Nordic looking. humans, human-like.

I didn't know about the bodies. Yeah. And apparently that was one of the, and this is all, again, probably speculative, but apparently that was one of the reasons why Mussolini had, you know, contacted the Germans because he thought it was them, you know. Yeah, well, I can understand that. Whatever happened then, I'm glad that they didn't figure out whatever technology might have been involved.

True. Unless they did. Yeah, or unless that was part of the, you know, part of the search. Yeah, well, Joseph Farrell says that the thing that crashed in Kexburgh, Pennsylvania, the bell. The Bell, the Kexburg Bell was German. German technology. Yeah, de Glucka.

Yeah. And Farrell's, you know, love him or hate him. He's a brilliant man and a very, very fine researcher. So, and willing to go down paths and nobody else goes to. and capable of it. Yeah. Do you think there is currently a government program that is working alongside ETs in some way, shape or form, whether it's the Nordics or whether it's the tall whites? I've wondered if it was a government program or something that is detached from the government.

But still, it looks like a government program. I was years ago, I was involved with the Senate Select Intelligence Committee. They were asking me questions about my book Majestic. Their counsel was, Dick DeMotto. And as I recall, I might be wrong about this, but one of them, either one of the senators or one of their assistants said to me that they had found a military base that wasn't on the Pentagon's roster, and yet was still being paid.

The people there didn't know they weren't actually part of the U.S. military. But then years later, it turned out that there could be zillions of those bases because the Pentagon's budget is a complete mess. Actually, it's not a complete mess, I think. I think that the missing money that they say they can't find is the black budget. And I think it's massive. And that gets you to Richard Dolan and the breakaway civilization. I think it's damn real.

And if you look at the parts of the Pentagon budget that they say they can't find, that's us paying for it and not being told it exists. Yeah. And that doesn't include all of the black money that isn't on the budget. That isn't on the budget at all. You know, from arms trade or from drug, you know, trafficking or whatever, what have you. I mean, there's more than one way to get. get dirty money. That's another ugly rabbit hole there. The whole use of drug trafficking to funnel through these black budget programs. Okay, what we're going to do, we're going to take a

quick little break. I do have, so the audience, I give them a quick heads up on our Discord, and I allow them to ask several questions to our guests. We'll have three questions. I just have to go set up a camera behind here because I am a one-man operation. So if you don't mind, We'll take maybe like a five minute break. I'll set that up. And then we'll do that. And we'll go on for maybe another 20 minutes if that's, if that's all right with you.

Absolutely. Perfect. Thank you, Wethy. You're very psychic. You've got a lot of resonance coming out. I can feel it and experience it as you're talking and as you're listening. And probably not a lot of your guests are actually aware of that, but they respond to it anyway, unconscious.

Maybe. That's why you get such good responses from your guests. you really, you're made for this. This is your, this is your wheelhouse, man. Yeah, I believe so too. Yeah, absolutely. It's true. I think my whole life has brought me to this point.

Yeah. And I would have hit myself for thinking that way a decade ago. Yeah, but here you are, you're doing it. And who knows where it may lead. Yeah. It's going to be leading some extraordinary directions, I think. I think it already has, and I believe it will continue. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Maybe you'll be sitting across it from a gray or a Nordic or something from all these days. This is the hope is that this eventually leads to, you know, it's, I mean, I don't share this at all with anybody, but I kept having this vision that, I mean, it sounds silly, that I would be someone,

that I would film first contact in some way. But that, and it's not something I like saying it aloud because it's, I mean, it sounds weird and pretentious. But it's just this thing that I keep seeing. And it is not by accident as in I'm given permission in some weird way, in some strange way. And I've shared this with a friend of mine who had the same, almost the same vision, but he played a different part in. And so it was just strange that I had that, but yeah, I don't know, you know, I don't know what that is. But, but yeah, ideally one day, I think it would be interesting for, you know,

if this is the means of communication that we're so used to in today's day and age, that that would be the format that this would happen in that someone would be sitting across from me, you know, in answering questions. Well, that could, I think it could happen. You know, people fairly often, I mean, not, I, I, It's an exaggeration to be fairly often. On occasion, people have come into close, into physical contact with the Grays after meeting me. And it's happened fairly frequently over the years, you know, maybe in the past 20 years, 10 times, eight times.

Wow. But that's not nothing, you know, in other words, it's not nothing. That's not nothing. No. So maybe it'll happen to you. I hope it does because I think you could you could probably do it. Well, if this is an open invite to have them come on the podcast, they're more than welcome. Yeah, boy, I mean, that would do it for you.

That would be a good good one for you. Yeah, that video would do okay, I think. Right. Yeah. All right. The only reason I'm pulling up my phone is because this is linked to my phone. I'm not trying to be on my phone currently. No, no, don't worry.

I don't care. All right. We have a few questions here from our lovely audience, as we call them interns. They have a membership every month and they get extra stuff. And this is one of the perks. And they get to ask our guest some questions. So it should be the first one popping up here. You could go back to an visible spectator to gain clarity.

What event would it be by Hex-0811? Well, I think in my case, the answer is pretty obvious. I would go back to the abduction experience in December the 26, 1985, to observe what actually was happening because I have only my own memory, and anyone knows that memory is not a reliable source of information. We do our best with it, but especially memories that are not contextualized by the brain. brain that there's nothing to relate to are very malleable. And I would like to be sure that the memory is accurate. The one thing I will say for it is that memory is so vivid. It has never changed in all these years. So I think it probably is accurate, but I would just like to know for

sure. Yeah, and gaining perhaps a different perspective, you know, maybe in the room or in, you know, in your own house or from outside the home, what that looked like, I'd imagine would be interesting. And also, the suspicion that my complete, crazy response was also funny, I would like to know whether or not that's true because I've suspected it might be. Tami, not to me. it wasn't funny, but maybe to people watching it, it would be. So there's something comical about a person being that scared about what were basically just a bunch of little tiny beings that looked like monsters to him. I don't know. I'd just like to go back and see what it, to get a perspective on it.

That's a very cool question. Thank you. Yeah, great question, Hex. Yeah. We got another one here from Maverick Star. Another great question here. This is a little bit related to the psionic stuff that we talked about. It says, your opinion, I'll let it finish here.

Your opinion on CE5 exercise and should people perform this by Maverickstar? I don't see any reason not to, but let's not become orb tourists. In other words, it's not hard to conjure up to get something to appear. What is hard is doing something. with that. Because when something appears, that is an invitation. Okay, let's take the next step. People just sit there. They don't take the next step because they don't know how. But it is possible. And I can't tell you how in two minutes, but it's a whole new life that is being offered. and we got to take that basket.

And so far, we're not doing that. We need to really look into ourselves and ask ourselves, everyone who does CE5s, including the people in the government and everyone, what do we do next? We get an orb to show up, then what? It's the then what we have to figure out each of us in their own heart and all of us as a community. If you were to give Jake Barber and his team some advice on the then what? Okay, the advice, the first thing I would, the first piece of advice is learn to master your attention. Because right now, when you, when an orb shows up, you respond in a very primitive way with throwing your attention out to it just willy-nilly.

your attention is your signature. It is literally a signature that they see as a signature. And when your signature is a mess and all out of control, they have no respect for it. But if you can control your attention, you give it carefully, willingly and lovingly and openly, but you give it, you don't let the event take it. and you hold some of your attention back within yourself, you learn, and that's the beginning, and they will see that and respect that.

Later, as you work with this, you learn to find the parts of being that are outside of your ego and to express your attention from there. Then they're going to be really interested in engaging with you because that means you're on their level now. You've gone to the next step. You've taken the next step.

And we're far from that because right now we're looking for technology, which is, you know, know thyself. That's the beginning of this technology. Right. It always seems to be what I always come back to with this phenomenon. More I look into it, the more I try to dig deep, the more I try to find answers, the more it's pointing me inwards.

Yes. And I think that, you know, prior to the podcast, you know, we spoke about out-of-body experiences. We spoke about remote viewing. And these are things that are heavily achievable through internal perspective only. They're not achievable if you put it out there. It's got to be in here. Exactly. It's got to be in both places.

has above so below, as within, also without. But, you know, we have to come to this from a standpoint of strength and capability. Because if we show ourselves as strong and in control of ourselves, and that has to do with proper control of your attention and the sense of self-worth and self-love that you have, your inner peace, all of these things come into it.

A recognition of the existence of your soul. If you're doing this from a Western secular viewpoint and thinking you only have meat in your head, forget it. It's not going to work. You might as well go home because that's not what it's about. It is about something that to them, they have a science of the soul that is precise, very precise.

When I'm explaining about taking control of your attention, I'm talking about reflecting an awareness of that sort of science. We don't know anything about in our world. What's the closest thing to that? Like, I'm really interested in that. I'm really interesting in this interfacing with this ET in a way that they understand it. And I think a lot of people are really interested in that because that's like the fringe. That's where I think. first contact happens is through this, this medium that is fragile, that is ephemeral,

that is like barely understood. Is it closer to like a dream state? Is it closer to a deeply sort of meditative state? Like what is, what does that look like in that interface? How does that feel like? Is there anything you could relate it to that I would understand. Let me give it a shot. First, it's hard to put into words, obviously, because it's not a verbal thing. But if I could do this, there is a taste of essence within us all that when you taste that, when your attention touches it, you know, that's me. And it's not, it's not Chris. It's not Whitley, as we talked about earlier in the show, it is that which is behind that, the silent presence that is me.

And it's getting to that and living in that and seeing from that that that your ego then becomes a tool, a life tool. But you are not that life tool. You are the being behind it. And this being has a universality to it. It has, and where do you get to that? You get to that through uncompromising, clear, loving, careful self-knowledge, understanding yourself, know yourself, and you know the whole world, and you know them.

But that's where it begins. It has to begin there. I know it's frustrating. No, that's, I mean, that's great advice. I mean, it just makes so much sense to me that that would be the medium in which we used to connect would be to the same mechanism that's used to connect with ourselves. You know, my wife, she knew this like the back of her hand, and she used to say, I said, where do you start? She said, Whitley, you need to laugh at yourself. Laughter is the beginning of everything.

and the great mystic of the, I guess the 13th century, Meister Eckhart used to say, and it's the title of one of his sermons, I believe even, God laughs and plays. When we start to laugh and play in the context of our journey toward inner search and self-knowledge, then we start to see. Because if you can laugh at yourself, you've got a chance to see yourself. that. Beautiful. We got a last question here, and this one will round off the interview nicely here. This is from Tess. By the way, thank you to all the interns for asking your questions on the Discord. I appreciate it. From your experience with the phenomena, do you wish to impart to the next generations?

The next generations are so important. That's why on Dreamland, I have Kelly Chase is my co-she does the show, once a month. She's young and the next generation is absolutely critical to me. That's what I'm about is communicating this to the next generation. What do I want to impart to them? Something Anne said that maybe is the most important thing of all, especially for the next generation. The human species is too young to have beliefs. What we need are good. questions. You guys go out there and find the right questions and ask them, ask them inside yourselves in your hearts to each other, to the universe, and to all who are here trying to relate to us because they want those questions. That's where we start.

Beautifully said. Whitley-Strieber, it was an absolute pleasure having you on my show. I am really grateful for your presence and I am so happy that we had a chance to connect here. And I hope that this conversation resonates with the audience out there, which I'm sure it will. But thank you for everything you do. Guys, if you want to check out Whitley's books, obviously do that. I will leave the link below. His new book, Fourth Mind, is out. We will have Whitley sign a couple of these.

And if you want a chance to win one, I'll just pick one of the comments. So like the video and leave a comment. We'll reserve one for the interns and one for the public comments here. Willis, is there anything you want to end on? Yeah. The one thing I ever heard verbally that my wife Ann thought was the most important thing of all. Have joy. Have joy.

Not happiness. Joy. Joy. I'm going to end it there. Thanks, Willie.