AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - Hollywood Actor Shares Wild Alien Encounter Stories - Thomas Jane | ep. 101

Episode Date: September 11, 2026

AREA 52 Shop: https://www.area52.shopPatreon Exclusive Content: https://www.patreon.com/Area52investigationsYou know Thomas Jane from The Mist, Hung, The Expanse, The Punisher and a whole lot more. What you probably don't know is that one night in 2011, alone on his couch at 3am, something came through his ceiling. He woke up the next day a different person. He's never talked about it publicly. Not once. Until now. We sat down for almost three hours to go through his new book, which is packed with some of the strangest encounter cases I've ever heard. A stranger in Brazil whose blood was immortal. A guy in Austria who rode his moped straight up a UFO ramp and ranted at the occupants until they started crying. And a 1982 West Virginia case where the being introduced himself as the "watch guard." We also get into the four alien clades, the prime directive, why disclosure is NOT coming next week, synchronicity, and then Thomas walks me through exactly what happened that night, step by step. He even drew the beings for us. Stick around for audience questions at the end, including the Roswell miniseries he pitched that nobody in Hollywood would touch.

I've always been terrified. Just in general? I think it's part of what I'm here to learn. You find meaning in everything once you have a purpose, a journey. And I think that it's time for us to make it okay to talk about this stuff. I don't have any answers. I have no clue. except for I know what happened to me.

I know what I saw. And then I never woke up. The next day, I was somebody else. I'm calling to report an incident to happen when I was active duty military U.S. Army in Kitsa, Germany in 2002. We were at the firing range and a gigantic UFO appeared above us.

And most people were like frozen in time, like just frozen, including my feet. but I could see, I could move my eyes, and I had a cigarette in my hand before the incident happened, and when it ended, the cigarette was burnt all the way down to the filter, so we definitely lost time, like, a few minutes, and I did hear a voice in my head speak to me, and what it said was that not to be afraid that they weren't going to harm us, but they were collecting a DNA scare. And ever since then, I have had a, um, some very strange streams, very strange downloads.

I watch your podcast all the time and just wanted to leave this information that it definitely has happened to me. Welcome, Thomas, Jane. Thank you. For those of you who are not familiar with some of your work, I would definitely type them out on IMDB, and you'll probably recognize a few movies, at least, at the very least, that you've been a part of. I mean, just, I found out yesterday, you've done a lot of Stephen King movies, actually. Three of them. Yeah, the Dream Catcher, 1922, and then The Mist, which is an amazing movie by every standard, I think to this day, is just like one of those really, really incredible ones.

Have you, by the way, have you, like on a side here, have you seen Widows Bay? No, no, yeah. It's on Apple. It's great. horror slash comedy. Matthew Reese is the lead. Oh, yeah. Phenomenal, but he borrows from so many Stephen King movies, including The Mist.

All right. So at one point, his character, he's like the, I guess, the town mayor, Mayor Tom, and he runs back in because there's this fog creeping in. And along with the fog comes like all this, I don't know, bad news and bad luck and whatnot. Okay, good. All the bad juju. And he runs in and he goes, there's something in the fog. And I go, that's from the mist. There's something in the mist.

And so, yeah, a movie that's still being referenced today. But yeah, that's not what we're here to talk about, although I'm sure we're going to get into some of that. But we're here to talk about the UFO slash UAP phenomenon and the fact that you sent me, and I guess an early advanced copy of your new book, The Watch Card. Well, I know you're a reader, you know, and I, and it has, I've written an account of something that happened to me in 2011. So. Yeah.

I wanted you to read that. Well, I appreciate you sending that my way, and I did read it. I've been furiously reading it. not reading it in a furious manner, but trying to get through it before you got here. Because a lot of stuff going on, but I'm every night, you know, ripping through these pages. It's a really well-written book. And one of my favorite things about this book, I think, other than your personal experience, because you are, by every metric, an experiencer, you know, to those wondering what your connection to this is and how you got into that.

Maybe we'll get into that a bit later. but you are an experiencer. And so a lot of this is through the lens of someone who is deeply affected by the phenomenon on a personal, very personal way. And to an extent, really messed with you. And still to this day, I take it, does mess with you. Changed my life.

Yeah. Changed everything about my life. Yes. I'm an unwilling participant. And as so many people are that I found out, you know, but in 2011, I had no idea that any of this stuff existed. You know, I liked UFOs as a kid, but I liked, you know, vampires too. And one of the, you know, disappointments of being a kid was realizing that vampires just is totally made up. and that UFOs were just, you know, totally impossible.

You know, they just didn't make any sense how they could get here. It just, unfortunately, you had to sort of throw them into that drawer. And I did, I did for a long time for years until 2011. Yeah, there's a, like a magic trick. Sometimes, you know, it's good to suspend your disbelief to enjoy the magic. But there is, in your case, and just like any really good magic trick, it is the unwilling suspension of disbelief. You were forced to suspend that disbelief in this encounter. And I do want to get into that, but I also want to talk about every chapter of this book is, okay, first

of all, there's a lot of really deep philosophical takes on this stuff. You know, you reference everyone from Kiel and Valet to people like Avi Lowe and the mainstream sort of UAP narrative and everything happened on the science side. Like you've clearly done your homework with all this. I didn't know this prior to meeting. We met at Contact in the Desert. And when I started looking you up and like your connection to the phenomenon, I started realizing like, oh, wow, you've been going to like Mufon symposiums.

You've been like, you've been really ingrained in this. You're not just in forgive the term, but you're not just a. celebrity who's interested in UFOs. You have a real history with this stuff. Yeah, recently, you know, I mean, when I first fell down the rabbit hole, I did, I met Travis Walton at a convention near the LAX airport. I met Linda Moulton Howe. And then she talked to me for like 45 minutes, you know, it was just, it was really interesting. But then I kind of backed away. I got into Stephen Bassett. He started having this, monthly meeting where people would come in. I heard about that and started showing up and met Steve.

I got roped into narrating a Stephen Greer documentary. Oh, I didn't know that. Called Sirius. Yeah, it was his first documentary. And they came to, I had Greer come over to my house and show me photos of that Atacama humanoid, you know, in the kitchen. Yeah. And that was odd. It was this interesting experience. But I narrows. The documentary, Gary Nolan, that was the first appearance of Dr. Gary Nolan, who did the genetic analysis of the Atacama Human. I remember that documentary very well.

Yeah, it was cool. I was happy to be a part of it, you know. Just try to find ways to spread the word. And these were relatively early days, you know. And then all this time I've been making notes, you know. I guess it's a normal reaction when my world was shattered. I just started writing things down. I had to write shit down to try to put things in a place where I could look at them and try to see how things might fit together and how any of this might comport with the world as I understood it. The real world, you know, the world that everyone tells you was real

and the one that is strictly reinforced by the rules of the game here on Earth. So that was a conundrum. And those notes eventually turned into the outline of a book. And then I started to, somebody invited me to contact in the desert three years ago. So that was, we met, I've been there twice before that. Right. And they asked me to talk, you know. I did a talk at the Hollywood Disclosure Line.

Sure. A lot of great people there really, you know, terrific, interested in the topic. Along the way, I became really good friends with Paul Heinek. He's great. Love that guy. He gave me those. Yeah, the skiff nodes. Yes, I blessed them. Well, they're protecting you, sir. Thank you. I don't need it. Thank Paul. And he, we really headed off and had a lot to, these conversations are what, or how we learn, how we put the pieces together. You know,

know, we're all sort of groping in the dark around these things. And somebody's like, hey, come over here. Feel this. What the hell is that? And I've been happy to be involved with contact. I think it's a fantastic organization of like-minded human beings. And so that, so yeah, I guess I've been involved peripherally. Sure. I mean, more than most. It's really, quite interesting because I would say, you know, when you get people's takes on the phenomenon normally from someone who's just approached the phenomenon recently, maybe due to revelations in the news or congressional hearings, there is a, I don't know, there is a path that you can see people take where, and I am victim to this same thing, but you start off with like, oh, it's flying saucers and the grays.

And like that's like the whole thing. Yeah. And then no, they're from Zeta. And then like this whole right and evolves. And over time, you know, when I meet somebody who's just gotten into the topic, and I don't consider myself to be, you know, an expert by any metric. But when I meet somebody who's really green around the gills, you know, for this, I hear them say, oh, it's, you know, they speak with such certainty.

and there's this Dunning Kruger effect of like, you know, very high level of confidence. It's the gray's in there from Zeta. We have to nail it down somehow. Yeah, exactly. And then I'm very excited because then I get to say, well, just wait until you get to the point where you understand there's like a whole non-physical thing that says way more prevalent than anything physical in this topic. That's right. And they go, yeah, but that's just like technology. that the graves have or something, right?

And I go, I'll see it in six months. And then down the road, they go, oh, my God, you know, and they start reading Jacques Valet and Kiel and like all sorts of other. Jacques Valet is kind of like the Isaac Newton of euphology, right? How do you mean? Newton changed our understanding. He took the laws of motion and he sort of, you know, made the celestial and brought it bound to earth and connected the.

to with this really solid theory that can be built upon. And Newtonian mechanics still work, for the most part. You know, you can build an entire civilization off of Newtonian mechanics. But, you know, Newton was also really interested in alchemy. He spent, he wrote, most of his writing was about, you know, solving the secret biblical texts and stuff like that. And he had in this, he was interested in this hidden divine order. I didn't know that about underlying reality. That was Newton. He was fascinating.

That was his whole mission in life was to uncover this hidden divine order, which Valet also has helped us to understand the phenomenon in a new way by saying human consciousness is being impacted by what he called a non-human control system. right, which I'm a fan. I take that as a baseline. And I say that valet is like Newton because these theories are 50 years old. John Keel, Valet, these are fantastic, you know, connections. There are wonderful dots that have been strung together into a really interesting pearl necklace. That necklace needs to be shattered. Those pearls need to be reorror.

into an Einsteinian understanding. Right. There's another level to this phenomenon that is waiting to be cracked open. We're waiting for the Einstein interpretation. Einstein looked at Newton's stuff, looked at the clockwork, was also interested in a divine order. You know, eventually said God doesn't play dice.

But he took the speed of light and said, that's a fundamental aspect of the universe. It can't be broken. In fact, space and time bend around the observer to create different realities, depending on who the observer is and what speed they're traveling in. But the speed of light is this sort of fundamental envelope, which all of space and time revolves around, and the observer plays a fundamental part in how we see the universe.

And I think that we're waiting for that kind of architecture. to be applied to the work of valet, the work of keel, the idea that this, you know, Keel thought that this intelligence was ancient, that there was a, not, that, that the extraterrestrial hypothesis itself was the Trojan horse. Yes. That the, uh, uh, the flying saucer sort of rode in on, you know, it's, it's sort of sneaking in under this guise of space beings. of whatever we want it to be. Yeah, and also fairies or demons or ghosts and that there was this all-encompassing intelligence,

and that was sort of the secret according to Keel. And I think both of those things are kind of true. Yeah, and they're based in some form on, you know, you touched on this in your book as well, but like Madame Blavatsky and the whole theosophy movement and, you know, everything is sort of derived there. And even like, you know, Jacques Valet was famously, and so was Jay Allen Heinek, Rosicrucian.

Right. And so, you know, there is this tie to, like, hermeticism to these ancient orders of, you know, science, if you will. Levatsky and the the theosophists were trying to connect with a higher intelligence through their spiritual practices. and that could go as far as sort of the Rosicrucian or the Golden Dawn type of technology, the magical technologies designed... The alchemy, yeah. To open us up to basically a non-human form of intelligence

or a higher intelligence. And the the theosophists call them the ascended masters. Yeah. But they opened the door in the, you know, turn of the century, and then that crept up into the 30s and the 40s, the 1920s with Alice A. Bailey, they were connecting with what they called the Mahatmas,

which were these hidden masters that lived in remotest Tibet, and that they had these sort of celestial sort of abilities. And then that transformed into hidden masters, not even living on Earth or living in Venusian realms or in some higher plane of existence, and that we could connect. connect with them telepathically. Yeah.

And that laid the groundwork for the contactee movement. Yeah, Venus, Jupiter even, like all the planet, Saturn. They were coming from Mars, all these planets. From our solar system. Yeah. Impinging on us down here telling us to, you know, clean up our act. They were basically here to save us from ourselves. And the theosophist really laid the groundwork for this whole idea that you can telepathically

communicate with these non-human intent. is that looked suspiciously human. They were, you know, very, they looked like, you know, Scandinavian models that were getting off their spaceships in the desert, which is really strange. And I was trying to comport the fact that we do have really strong accounts of these not just humanoid, but humanesque beings. Yeah.

could pass for you and me that could walk down the street and that these are the same beings that were reported by the contactees, which I don't put a lot of credence into. You don't until you realize that like, because I'm of the same ilk, I think, where, okay, I don't know if we're actually dealing with tall blonde people in spandex. Right. But then you'll speak to someone who look you dead in the eye, who's never been in interested in this stuff in their life, never blink, never bat an eye in this direction. Yeah.

And they break down because they're telling you about a time where they were out of Chipotle and this eight foot tall couple stared and talked to him in his head. Yeah. And it changed everything for him. If you were ever thinking about picking up some Area 52 merch, but you were waiting for the right moment. Now is that time. We are currently running our back to college sale 20% off all invisible college.

merch right in time for the fall get those comfy sweaters we got sweaters hoodies cardigans t-shirts hats notebooks you name it 20% off all invisible college merch while supplies last for limited time go to area 52 dot shop 1942 the guy who had an experience with a with a human-esque tall blonde longer hair you know udo udo or tana right yeah in the montana foothills actually That's right. These accounts do exist. I believe them. I really do.

I think that they're too varied and we start looking into this stuff. There's a wonderful account from just a couple of years ago that we could get into later that happened to Brazil. That Pavel from Psychoactivo turned me on to. Oh, yes. Right. Yes, but it's being the blood. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Paul Perrata. Yeah, they're doing tests on his blood now. Right. Well, they've done the test. Or they've done the test, have they? Yeah. Are the results back? Yeah.

The results have come back. They are fascinating. The, can you give us a brief rundown of what that story is? There was like an injured being, right? If I'm not mistaken. I'm a little foggy on. Right. So, 2019, I think, is the year that the worst wildfires in Bolivia all over South America.

They're the worst they'd ever seen. I mean, the whole damn country was. was burning down. They lost millions of animals, thousands of indigenous tribes. It was a disaster. The worst one that South America had had at the time. Unfortunately, there was an even worse fire in 2024. So this is the heart of our planet. These are the heart and lungs of our planet. The rainforest is now being, we kind of know now that that rainforest is a man-made thing that's Some ancient civilization actually created the soil, which is the richest soil on the planet. That's a technology.

That rainforest is an ancient technology that's been created. And now, you know, of course, we're burning it down. But I could see how non-human intelligence might be interested in that part of the planet. A ton of reports come out of Brazil. I mean, most of life is there. If you look at the number of living things on the planet. Like most of it is there, right? It's the birthplace over the cauldron of life on this planet,

sort of erupting out of this thing. It's a gorgeous piece of, it's a jewel of the universe, I would think. I would agree. And Dr. Paul Perada, who was a young man who had volunteered to be a first aid guy, and he had a cabin out in the middle of nowhere on the edge of the wildfires. towards the end of their of their reign right so the wildfires were kind of burning down they were still being fought in a few areas firemen were coming out they brought people in from all over the world to try to get a handle on this fire so it wasn't uncommon to see Europeans or you know people

from everywhere the french a lot of a lot of people from the UK had come in firefighters volunteers um you know there was cholera was running rampant uh the animals were all burning the death. They didn't have water. The water had been poisoned by the ashes that was falling into it. And so people were doing what they could. And Perada was, you know, like all of those guys would work in shifts. They'd work for like three days straight until they couldn't stand anymore. And then a truck would come and pick them up and take them away. So it was his last night there. He stepped outside to grab a smoke. It was about 11 o'clock at night. And he sees a white man coming up the trail in the middle of nowhere the firemen are all deep into the forest but he's figuring this is a

one of the firefighters that had come to help and as the guy gets closer he's tall he's got longer blonde hair and he's wearing a skin tight spandex style yeah as you as you would in the rainforest as you would and it had these stripes on him silver silver like morse code like a line and then a dot and then a line and they were sort of all over his uniform And he's thinking, Parada, he's thinking, out of these Europeans, they've got the best firefighting gear. And he had a blanket on. And the blanket was a local blanket with like a print of a leopard on it or something. Parada remembers that.

It's this guy wearing this fancy outfit, will wear it with this Bolivian, you know, popular at the time, tiger print blanket around his shoulders. And he came up and Parada's like, how. how can I help you? And he says, I've been, I've been injured. And he says, oh, come inside. Let's take a look at it. And they walk into this little shack, which was repurposed as his first aid kit. He's like, have a seat.

Tell me what's going on. And the guy pulls down his uniform and he pulls his arm out and he's got a gash on his arm that goes from like here to here. bleeding like crazy. The first thing Parada noticed was that none of the blood was on his uniform. That somehow his arm was bleeding fiercely, but none of the blood was on his uniform, which was spotless. And he's like, oh man, how did you do that to yourself? And the guy looked at him, and in Parada's mind,

he hears the words, it was a baby puma. and Parada freezes. And he's like, did that guy, did that guy just talk to me in my mind? And then the guy puts a hand on his shoulder and goes, calm down. Everything's going to be okay. In his mind.

And Parada just loses it. And he's like thinking, how do I get out of here? This guy's obviously, I don't know what he is, but I need to get the hell out of here. There's nobody's around. He's in the middle of nowhere. And he eventually, the guy just says, listen, I, you know, so Perada goes over to the first aid kit and he stitches this guy's arm up.

And as he's stitching his arm up, he realizes the guy's got no body hair, not anywhere. And he looks at his face and he's not clean-shaven. He doesn't have hair on his face. And he does that. I think it takes him 40 minutes or something, like a long time. But he finally gets it done. He gives him a little baggy. He's like, listen, you need to take care of this, take these pills.

But there's another place that can help you way better than I can. So when you're ready to get the stitches out, go somewhere else. Yeah. And the guy goes, the humanesque goes, don't be afraid of what you're going to see next. And Parada's like, okay. And he looks around and he grabs a pair of medical scissors. And he puts them in his up his sleeve. And he goes, okay, and the guy opens the door.

And right outside the shack is a UFO when all of its lights off. Dark gray, silent with no lights on, just hanging above the trees. A saucer? A saucer. A round saucer. And below the saucer are two little humanoids like grays, but they were. greenish and they didn't have big heads. They had big black eyes, normal size or proportionally sized heads. But the, uh, and their skin was a little greenish. And they were wearing the same

outfit as our, our man. And Perada starts kind of walking with these, with this guy and sort of lets the guy get ahead and gets under the thing. And then he, and then he sort of says, okay, I'm, uh, I'm going back inside. And, uh, and the guy turns. around under the spaceship, standing there with his two buddies. And in his mind, he goes, thank you, Paul. And he hadn't said his name. He hadn't told the guy what his name was. And Parada ran back in there, slammed the door, and stayed in there all night, terrified that they were going to come back and take him away or, you know, that they were going to kidnap him and take him to another planet. He was losing his mind. He kept this story.

to himself for a long time, but they couldn't sleep at night. And he started having these dreams. And in the dreams, he was in a white room. And in the white room was our guy. And he was being operated on. And he had these little dudes were there. And he keeps having these dreams. And he's freaking out. And he tells his wife, his wife's like, you're losing your mind. He does an interview with somebody, I think, from Argentina. And that gets picked up and goes all around South America. His boss fires him, loses his job. His wife is, they have a baby on the way or a second baby on the way.

And his wife's like, what the hell are you doing? You know, and he really, it was sort of the dark night of the soul for Parada. He couldn't live with it and he couldn't live without it. So he started going, he started reaching out. telling his story. And JJ, the Spanish researcher, I'm going to forget his last name, but his name is JJ.

He's a famous guy. He's like the Jacques Valet of Spain. He reached out, and he said, I'm flying over there. I want you to show me everything. And so he does. And the Parada takes him to the shack. He's there with his guys.

He tells him the whole story. And then Parada says, says, you know, I still got those cotton ball. Had a gauze like? Yeah, I've got the gauze. I saved it. I've got that guy's blood. And so, JJ said, I've got the means to have this stuff tested.

So he gave him some of the blood, not all of it. And they had it tested over about six months. And this was only like in 2024 or something that they finally got this stuff tested. And it's, uh, it's. It turns out that it's, the DNA is completely human, but the, it's female. The chromosomes. There are no male chromosomes in the, in the, in the blood. So this, somehow they were genetically engineered to be female, even though this was clearly a masculine, muscular guy without a,

any facial hair. Hmm. Was there anything else that was peculiar about the blood? Yeah. It was immortal. The blood cells on the gauze didn't decay, they didn't turn black, they didn't get crusty the way blood were fresh.

They were fresh as the day. Still? They're still as fresh as the day as they came out of, as he found them on that day. No way. Yeah. Very interesting. And they say maybe there's some sort of nanotechnology in there or some sort of bio.

Preservative. Preservative. Some sort of, you know, some sort of genetic anomaly that they've engineered to sort of make this blood immortal. Now, bacteria is immortal. You know, single-celled organism. They've been around forever. They divide and divide and divide, and they sort of have no, they don't carry information so that they've been immortal on the planet forever.

And maybe they're able to use something like that and blend them together. I have no idea. But if their blood is immortal, they're probably immortal. Yeah, that's the, that's the next conclusion. Which means that the same beings that are interacting with us today, could, been the same beings that have been interacting with us for thousands of years. It could be Ashtar right there. That is such a remarkable story and so recent because I mean, what was the last time you'd heard about flying saucers with a tall blonde Swedish guy? It wasn't prior to 1975.

Like, I mean. Yeah. And that was a setup. That guy that came out of the forest and I've got a gash on my arm. I think so, too. That was my next conclusion. Like, this was a donation. That's right. Clearly. This was a donation.

A baby Puma? What? Yeah. That's the best you can come up with? Parada had, JJ had several labs test the blood. And all of that, and somehow all of that has sort of gotten brushed under the rug. Parada stopped coming out. He stopped talking.

Pavel, our friend Pavel says that the queen of England may have gotten, the queen of Spain may have gotten involved somehow. Weird. I'll have to speak to Pavel about it. Yeah, I really should. He's looked into, he's done some interesting research, and he did the translations of the interview. That's how I found the case. Yes. And I write about it in the book because I think it's the most fascinating case and maybe the most consequential.

case clearly with a donation to have come about and then you know there that goes on we can get into that another time but the experiences the pirata had on the craft with these beings he actually he was freaking out they were in in that white room he said listen this has got to end my life is like his dreams yeah stop i know this isn't a dream i'm waking up with bruises on me oh wow up with stuff, you know, I know what you guys are doing. And you got to stop because my life has fallen apart. And they said, give us three days. They said, come with us. We're going to work with you for three days. And then we'll let you go. And we'll never, we'll never bother you again. And he, you know, he kind of didn't really have a choice. And he did. So he went onto the craft or

an underground. Wherever. For three days. For three days. And he swears. by this. Absolutely. Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, and the stuff that they talk about is rather shocking. I have to look into this case a little more. That's very interesting.

Rather amazing. Well, go give Pavel a follow if you're listening. I mean, he's got a lot of interesting stuff that he covers as well. Psychoactive. Right, thank you. Some of the cases that are coming out of South America and worldwide are really worthy of studying. this is a worldwide phenomenon. Yeah.

And we're obviously, it feels to me that we're entering a new phase, not only in our own sort of awakening, but in the interactions, you know. I see. We are now being sort of, we're gradually. We've leveled up. We've leveled up. Thank you. Wow. Very interesting case.

I mean, and no shortage of interesting cases are covered in this book. I can tell you're a fan of Preston Dennett, as am I. because you include these obscure cases. And this one maybe not so obscure, but there are some very obscure ones that I do want to bring up because I'm every chapter, I was delighted to learn about a new encounter. And these are like not just, oh, I saw a triangle,

which I'm not discounting that that's important. That's obviously life changing. But a few that stuck out to me was, was a few that stuck out to me were Joseph Wanderker from Vienna, Austria in 1955. Yes. So he, this man was like riding his bike. Yeah. Sees these lights coming down and he's thinking, oh, there's a plane or something.

Somebody's crashing. You know, the war ended maybe a decade before. Yeah, yeah. And then Austria, it was in Austria. He was a German Austrian. The Europe was in tatters, you know. The social unrest was pretty high. And Joseph was a young man, I think he was 27 years old, jobless, pissed off.

Really, one of those kind of angry, you know, socialists, right, at the world. And he was driving through a forest path. And he used to spend his days riding around on his moped. Oh, this is his moped. That's right. Because he's really just, you know, probably trying to tame the demons in his mind. He was driving around and he sees a glint in the forest. And so he leaves the path and he drives over and there's this 30-foot silver disk sitting in a clearing in the middle of the forest.

And the door was open and the ramp was down. It was like a 12-foot ramp and this six-foot wide door. And Joseph, for whatever reason, drives his moped right up the ramp and into the craft. where these six beings are waiting for him there. Now, he doesn't say this, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't sort of telepathically sort of coax him onto that craft. I don't know. Sure. Maybe he just got a...

Yeah, what would compel you to do this? But then again, we don't know. Maybe that's just a quirk that Joseph has. Maybe. And these beings were childlike. They were... Yeah, they look like children. Yeah, not big heads, not grays.

You know, they were basically... looked like 10-year-old children, really, you know. They had blonde hair. They had this weird silken sort of inflated rough as a collar. They had mittens on, which were, you know, sort of these gloves, but with fingerless gloves. And they started talking to him in perfect Austrian-German. And he's like, how the hell did you guys learn? Where are you guys from? And they said, we have come from the highest peaks of Cassiopeia. And then he realized, oh, my God, like, these are, these are like space people. So he's like, how do you guys know German?

And he's like, we learned it. And then he starts telling them all about, he's like, oh, my God, look at you. You're obviously, like, got some shit figured out. Are you here to help us? Are you here to help, you know, save Europe? Yeah, he starts telling them about Hitler, about the war. and right right and then they're like no we didn't come here to interfere in any way in your terrestrial matters we just came here to to observe you know and check it out but they were like tell me

about this machine you're driving it's really interesting how does it work so they got it joseph to describe the the basics of a combustion engine uh to these space people and then he's joseph says like the the little cabin he was in, there was no instrumentation. He couldn't see any chairs. It was just empty in there. But it was filling up with the smell of like warm oil from his moped. Evocative story. Joseph started, you know, raging about this state of the world

and how the industrialists were taken over and the poor were, you know, living the rich were living off the back. of these poor people. And they said, yeah, but you must know yourself how to fix these matters. And if you want to start, you know that a revolution can be started and you can change all of that, but you got to do it yourself.

And then as he was pleading with them, as Joseph tells it, the being started to cry. They started to weep with, like, empathy for, for his rage, his socialist rage at the world. And then Joseph got really embarrassed while seeing these little space beings crying for him in this little cabin and he got really uncomfortable and he says, okay, well, I should probably leave, I should probably go. And he bowed and they bowed and he took his moped and drove down the ramp and left.

And then regretted it for the rest of his life, kicked himself. Why did I leave, you know? Why did I start, you know, telling these folks to fix my planet? This is like the first thing out of my mouth. Oh, you're space. And make them cry. Yes, yeah, and they start weeping. Oh, no.

At the sorry state of who he was and where he was and life on Earth. And the whole thing is fascinating to me, you know, that they'd have these interactions. And I think that in a lot of ways, a lot of the. the beings that don't that aren't here for you know other purposes do come here to experience you know to check us out to check out life on earth yeah little visitors little tourists almost if if we could take a tour of Rome yeah like I would do it in a heartbeat I know it would be the greatest tour in the world just to walk around just to just to see how somebody lived their life for one day

day. That's true. And walk the streets, you know, of Rome or Greece, you know, go see a play in the amphitheater. It's like, that would be nuts. Like some beings have that ability. I'm sure. I can do that. Yeah, that's probably, you know, where that big wave in the mid-60s and 70s was like, that's, you know, you mentioned this in your book as well, but like there are these two types of beings. There are the beings that the inconsequential sort of passerbyes. Yeah. The transients. Yeah, the transients, as you call them. And then the other ones who, you know, are a little bit more intrinsically linked to us. I think so. For one agenda or another, whether it's our benefit or theirs. I don't know. Right. Right. We don't know. Yeah. But it seems to be that we have so many hundreds of different

species or counts or descriptions throughout decades. Thousands, maybe. Yeah. And yet the guys that showed up around when the abduction era started, the gray, now there's a ton of different kinds of gray aliens out there, which gets confusing for people. Because when you say a gray, we're not really sure. We don't have a photograph, so we can't really tell which gray they're talking about. Genderless, are they naked or they have a suit. What color suit are they tall? They short, big, head, small head, lips, no lips, like all these.

The same is true for the humanesque guys. There's not just tall blonde, you know, eight foot tall Calvin Klein model types. No. There's these other types as well. There's some. The ones with Joe Simonton. Right. Who gave him the, you know, who wanted the pale of water.

Yeah, the pancakes. They were like Italian race car drivers, he put it in turtlenecks, you know, with like olive colored skin. And like, yeah, some have dark skin, some have longer noses. Yeah. One account, I can't remember who, but the human-esque type. were tall and they had giant chins right they were really skinny with these giant chin some native looking as well like more yeah and then there's other blonde human-esque but shorter not not seven or eight feet tall with smaller eyes a little

bit or yeah yeah yeah higher foreheads Jesse Rostenberg saw them yeah they also yeah with the with a fish bowl right right and their head and this truck driver, I think, from Argentina, was abducted by them for in the 70s. Yes, there was multiple. There was like three of them that took him, and they experimented on him. Yeah. It was quite horrific. Yeah.

Yeah. And it sparked the whole nationwide debate, whether we were being surveilled by space beings. Yeah. So there's different types of human-esque. There's different types or species, I don't know what to call him, of gray. There's different types of praying mantis. Yeah. You know, there's, they've been reported since the 50s.

I think even Leonard Stringfield. That's right. Some, some of these praying mantis types, but there's like white praying mantises. There's shorter praying mantises. There's like the really tall ones that are super skinny. There's ones that look more like insects and others that look more like praying mantis as well. Like there's like the, like the insectilins or, you know. And they always, those, those ones are really interesting to me because.

you know, there is a seeming hierarchy to this, even though it might only be perceivably in some cases the case. I don't think it's across the board, but it seems like there is this hierarchy where at least a portion of these grays seem to be biosynthetically engineered, sort of these drones. That's right. And then, you know, the step up from that is like the taller grays. And then the step up from that is perhaps these human looking ones. And then behind the veil are these like robed tall, eight foot tall, terrifying, you know, insects that have the most psychic capability, it would seem that can. That show up in DMT experiences. They seem like the oldest race.

Like these are the ones that have been around for a long time. They have the most incredible technology. Yeah, I like the, there's a Canadian story about this chick named Joyce Halfrin who, uh, was in, I think in the 80s, I think in 89, she was abducted by a couple of different praying manist types. Really? But one type that were like seven feet tall, super skinny, little heads. Oh, yeah, you talked to this in your book.

I didn't read this. They took her up into a ship that they called a light ship. And the light ship, you know, they told her sort of a little bit about their technology, and they said, your space program is doomed to fail. But one day your physicist will work out how to use light to travel between dimensions. They said that light at the end of the tunnel that you see in a near-death experience, we use that to travel. And you're going to learn how to do that without dying.

You don't have to die to get there. You don't have to die to get there once you shake off old ideas about space, time, and death. Whoa. Yeah. So there's the dimensional aspect to these praying manis folks that really, uh, fascinate me, but I'm not sure how we can hierarchy. I'm not sure about the hierarchy. Yeah, I don't think it is. I think we have a very limited understanding due to the encounters that we've had. And then there's the reptiles. Yeah, that's a whole other thing. It's a whole other thing.

But these four, I call them clades, because they are. They're clades of aliens. And there's a reptilian clade. There's the insectilin clade. There's the gray clade. And there's the humanesque clade. Yeah. And they, out of those clades, one type of human-esque being, one type of praying manus or insectolin, which is a praying manis, and then one type of gray, which appears to be the biosynthetically created sort of drones. And then, you know, they appear to be this loose confederation that is impacting our society. for reasons unknown. Right. And that's what I'm trying to figure out. Yeah, and it's difficult because any one of these could be masquerading as another

for all we know, which would make it impossible. The masters of genetic engineering. Sure. So we don't know who's creating who. Yeah. You know, a lot of them use these little grays. So I think we're pretty safely can say that the gray, G-R-A-Y alien, is a by biosynthetic drones.

Yeah, at least for the most part. For the most part, yeah. Now, there are grays that are biological, but these drones that are used in the abduction program, they're used in a lot of other areas. The reptiles have them. The human-esque work with them. They're seeing all the time in abduction scenarios and the praying manis is also. So whether they're all using the same, you know, a brand of gray alien or they're all creating

their own, we don't know. I would probably lean towards that. I don't think I would. Right. I would think it kind of silly to impose capitalism on these things and be like, there's a whole factory. You can just go purchase your own grays. I think that.

P-26s. Yeah. They probably are developing whatever they need for the needs of the mission is my guess. You know, when you look at these craft and you hear about a lot of them, like you said, they're barren. There's nothing going on. There's no photos hanging on the wall. There's no kitchen.

There's no toilet. They're, you know, for all intense purposes, even Matt Brown talks about the idea of them being made to purpose or built to spec. Right. And I would assume the technology, which is, which are these guys, they're also a technology. And I think they're also built a spec depending on the mission. Using our own genetics. Yeah. To build them.

And what I always find interesting is like, but in whose image are they built? Do you know what I mean? Because there has to be, like, is that a random choice that everyone's agreed on? Right. That like, oh, this is the least frightening thing that we could use? Like, because that doesn't seem fitting. Do we factor into their decision to create grays to look the way they do? Or are they just utilitarian and the look the way they do because there's a reason?

The genetics for them, for their own purposes. Yeah. Or are they based off something? Are they built in the likeness of some other being that turned out to be, you know, maybe a really optimal being for this planet. I don't know. There's an interesting, Aaron Schultz, was abducted several times in the 90s

by gray, greenish-gray aliens that looked just like the grays, but they said their skin was slightly greener. And he said that they told him that they were us from the future. Yeah, I've heard that a few times. So are we, you know, so are they creating these grays because of the...

In our image? Yeah, in our image, thank you. Yeah, I mean, Dr. Michael Masters has a whole literal dissertation on that. Like he wrote his thesis on, you know, the cranial morphology of humans into these grays. And it makes sense. And that might happen on several different planets, you know. I like the theory that they're from red dwarfs or a system with a red dwarf. There's a very long lifespan.

And most of the red dwarves, we know, you know, the sun is too volatile. for life, but that might not be true in every case. And there's trillions of suns out there. So maybe that gray morphology is something that all humanoid beings start to develop into as the sun dies. Over millions of years. Maybe as you go underground, you know, also your eyes get larger and the underground hypothesis is also a good one. Yeah, it's very interesting to to look at their morphology specifically and then try to reverse engineer from a paleontology standpoint or anthropology standpoint. Was there a plethora of alien planets where insects became the dominant, intelligent life form

and those praying manuses really are insects? Well, yeah. And Stephen Bassett mentions this as well, which I thought was interesting because if you look at lizards, the reptilians, you look at the man. You look at the Nordics. What do they all have in common? You can find them all on Earth. Right.

Are we all sharing DNA? Is this a cosmic zoo that we're all, this DNA pool that we're all pulling from? Are we all just part of the same family? I mean, they are living here. We do see little versions of all of these, you know? It might turn out that on these alien planets spread out across galaxies, millions, billions, trillions of life-giving worlds, they all share the same. And we're sharing basic genetics.

I would, that's my running theory for everything, is that these are all just trillions of petri dishes that are at different stages of evolution. And the universe is using the same building blocks all over the place. And why not? Yeah. I mean, if you were an advanced species and you've gotten through the trials of wanting to wage war and all of that, you've gotten past all. that. And now you're at the point of your existence where you want to go out and spread life and

maintain and nurture life throughout the universe. You, first of all, you wouldn't take over a planet that's dead and live underground. That seems useless. You would go to a green, nice sort of planet with water or whatever the conditions are. But you would find quickly that those conditions don't actually suit you. You would die from something, the nitrogen levels, the radiation, something's off. And so you would still have to live in a suit. And so instead, Let's take the native species that lives here. Let's genetically modify it with our DNA. Let's bring some stuff from this planet, these little cephalopods, change them a bit, put them in this ocean.

Take that, do this, and do that everywhere. You could do that. But then at the same time, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't waste my time if I'm this really intelligent being. Right. I would have AI do it. Exactly. And so I would put these Van Neumann probes in the oceans and let them figure it out.

And, you know, maybe there's a tripwire system there eventually when these things ascend to a higher consciousness. Or when they blow themselves up, then, you know, we send in the reinforcements and we're like, hey, calm down. And you could do some serious terraforming. Yes, exactly. Or. Panspermia or like controlled panpspermia. Yeah. Yeah.

And all of that might be going on. But at the same time, this biosis. that's happening all over the universe has the same non-local essence that a morphogenic field, to use Rupert-Sheldricks' hypothesis, is a non-local impulse that writes itself into being everywhere. And so all of the different conditions on different planets would change that chemical soup in slightly different ways. I see. But the biosis, the impulse, the life, the carbon, you know, our scientists are wondering, you know, maybe silicon. Maybe.

But I would count that as a silicon-based life form may be a shadow biosphere that may exist alongside. We don't know how many overlapping biosis spheres there are, but we do know that this one appears to be sharing the same basic building blocks. That's why abduct the abduction phenomenon. That's why we can crossbreed. That's why these creatures look an awful lot like they have earth analogies. Yeah, I mean, they're bipedal, frontward facing eyes. They have digits on their hands.

Like, these are all very specific traits. is we're not starting from scratch. And scientists on our planet right now, and why not, why wouldn't we think this, have started that somehow life began as this freak accident, lucky lightning bolt hits a warm pond. Somehow this chemical soup springs into life and starts evolving using natural selection, the conditions of our planet as we're changing the conditions. And then in this feedback loop, you know, the planet, freezes over, then the planet, you know, warms up. And this process begins and it's been going on for four and a half billion years. But that same process could be going on in all of these

different planets together, sharing the morph, in other words, an evolutionary sort of, you know, a new evolutionary level is reached on one planet. You can, that new new way, of putting life together, non-locally spreads to all the other planets. Yeah, like the five-minute mile or whatever that was. Right. You know, when one person does it, all of a sudden, everybody can do it. And we could extrapolate that to include the universe. That's a very interesting hypothesis.

And, you know, why not? You can go ahead. You can grab it. I mean, there seems to be something. Where some see heroes and other see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. A fad to some, the future of money to others. We see crypto's trillion dollar swings.

The end of jobs or the end of human struggle. We see the endless funds fueling the AI hype. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com. One interesting part of your book was, a chapter based on the name of the book, The Watch Guard. And it was Donald, I'm going to say this wrong, Shawcross in Slanesville, West Virginia, in 1982,

a wonderful encounter with a all-knowing sort of creature that claims to be almost like a protector of this planet or perhaps this AI system that I spoke of or something that is keeping an eye. Can you tell us a little bit about that and why you chose that for the title of the book? Shallcross is a really interesting case. And I stumble across these things

looking through old flying saucer reviews. And we have that in common. There's nothing better than an old UFO magazine. And if you've seen the ones from Sweden, and yeah, those are fantastic. Stories Lost is a great YouTube channel that they do all. I'm familiar. Yeah, they do some really artistic, wonderful work in recreating some of these lost cases that are dug up in these old UFO magazines from Sweden, from Norway, from Denmark, you know, from all over the UK, really.

But Shalcross is, I think, probably found that through Preston Dennett, who is the goat. as far as a zanologist goes. I'm a moonlight zanologist. He's a full, a tenured zenologist. Yeah, I've got a stack of his books right there. You've been at it for so many years. And really, if anyone is interested in sort of trying to wrap their mind around the phenomenon,

it has to start with the actual accounts that have been going on for decades. You can find through people like Preston, through people, the old UFO journals and all the researchers out there, they're looking for where the rubber hits the road because that's where we're going to find answers in my opinion or at least dots that we can start to to put together and see where that takes us so shawl cross he was a night shift guy and he was four o'clock in the morning getting off i think he was working at a hospital or something and he lived in a trailer home in Virginia in the middle of nowhere. And he has a wife and a kid. And he comes home. He opens the door

and his cats try to run out past him right away. They're like tearing at the screen door. He's like, whoa, what's going on? So he looks outside. He figures maybe there's an animal out there. And he sees what looks like a plane going down in the field behind his house. So he wakes up his wife. He says, call the cops. There's going to be a plane crash. And he runs outside. He jumps in his car. And there's an old dirt road behind the field. He drives back there. His car dies. He doesn't think much of it. He gets out with his flashlight. And he starts walking through the weeds with his flashlight. And he comes across a pair of silver boots. And he puts his flashlight up. And he thinks it's the pilot of the airplane that just crashed. This is no pilot.

It's this guy with a silver suit on. He's got a staff in his arms, you know, like a four-foot-long staff he's holding. He's got a helmet on. He can't really see his eyes. And he's like, are you okay? Who the hell are you? And the guy starts communicating telepathically in Donald's mind. Yeah, instantly.

Instantly blew his mind. And he's like, and he realizes this is a. you know, that's a flying saucer, and this is a dude from space. It's a space being. And he goes, why haven't you made yourself known to the world? And the guy says, we are known. And he's like, well, what are you doing here? He says, I'm the watch guard. And he's like, what do you, what do you, they start having this telepathic conversation where this space being says that we're not taking care of our nuclear waste properly, that we're screwing up the planet, that there's, we can do this much better. And then he's like, and I'll, I can show you how to do this kind of stuff. And then he starts

telling Donald about the hidden technologies that are hidden in the underneath the sphinx. He starts telling him about the pyramids. They have this long conversation and I listed in a version of it in the book because it's rare that you get these sort of like, depth conversations with these space people. They're usually pretty coy. And this guy is too, but it changed Donald's life, you know. As he's talking to this space being, he suddenly realizes that his feet are not touching the ground. And he starts to panic because he's been floating along with this guy toward the craft, which was like a little purple light off of the distance when he stopped parked his car and now it's sort of like a few feet away and it's a classic flying saucer with a big

inner tube around the side and it's got lights that are spinning around and it's got a purple light coming off of it Donald's pissing himself he's thinking this this is really bad because now this the door starts opening up you know and he's like this guy's going to take me on board the craft and I want to disappear and never come back but his feet touched the ground and the guy starts walking up the ramp alone and he turns around and he goes, I'll be back. And he gets in the craft and the door closes. The craft lifts up and it takes off across the mountains. And by the time he got back to his place, the cops had shown up. So he tells them the whole story. He's burnt. The cop. They interview the cop. The cop said, yeah, one half of his face was sunburned.

Yeah, his hand and his face. From that purple light. Right. That had come out of the craft, whatever that was. Yeah, close to counter of the second kind. Yeah, they didn't find any radiation on Donald, although he was, he was burnt. And the cops, of course, said, you know, I don't know, the guy was obviously freaked out when I showed up, but there was nothing in the field. And I don't know this guy. I mean, you know, he could be some nut. But that experience sent Donald, changed his life, you know, as it does with so many, so many people.

It changes. It's just everything just turned upside down for him from that moment on. What was a great Barker, I think? Came out and interviewed him and said, this is the most credible encounter case that I've come across. A guy from New York came down and gave him a full lie detector test, which he passed with flying colors. The New York guy said, well, he believes it.

You know, whatever happened, he really believes it. And then Donald started got obsessed with the pyramid. and the sphinx and trying to crack that mystery for the rest of his life, you know, what's in there? And I call it, and the, so I call the book, the watchguard, because I think that that's part of what's going on, you know, I think that these, this small group, the, this one, one group of humanesque, this one group of praying mantas. We don't know much about the reptiles, but they keep showing up.

And then the grays are this confederation that is here has a kind of a watchguard. I think that they are guarding the gates to the cosmos. I think that there's two factions of watch guards. I think that's the alien faction, and then the human faction is, also hiding the craft, hiding the bodies, rushing away the evidence, the trail that leads to them. And they're in cahoots.

And it's possible. It's possible. In fact, the more I look into this, the more I can't see how it cannot be possible, that there is an intersection of human and alien forces that are working together in some capacity to manage humanity's access to technologies that are literally otherworldly and then have the power

to destroy worlds worlds and also with that included in that power is the power to traverse the galaxy, to go anywhere, to do anything. And, you know, we just don't quite have our shit together enough to be able to handle that kind of stuff. The prime directive.

And there's a little bit of a prime directive going on there. There has to be. I always feel like, you know, because when you look at Star Trek and you go, the prime directive was, okay, we don't interfere with planets that don't have warp drive. That's always been the case. And when they develop warp drive, then it's like, welcome to the family. And if you consider nukes being warp drive, which I don't, right. You know, I think that's when we would have had contact. But the more I, the more that I look at this stuff, the more that I realize that the prime directive is don't interfere until they get rid of the nukes.

Yeah. Like that for me seems like the threshold of finally, now you get it. What have they been telling us for the past hundred years? Get rid of your nukes. What are you doing? Right. Don't play with this stuff. Right.

You know, don't play with this energy. Don't play with this. This is bad. You're going to kill yourselves. You're going to kill it. It's happened before. It'll happen again. Like all these warnings point to the prime directive being we don't interfere in a limited capacity, at least, until they get rid of the nukes.

And then you look at JFK trying to do that in some capacity right before he was assassinated. Yeah. And that's what Shawcrossed was told by the watch guard, you know. You don't know how to handle. You're not doing it right. You don't know how to handle that stuff. The second we get rid of those is probably when we get the landings. The watch go did say, we use nuclear power.

Sure. But we use it, you know, we know how to use it. Yeah, not to kill people with. Yeah, get rid of the nukes. We know how to properly, you know, manage these kind of incredibly powerful technologies. And I think that nuclear power is the entry exam to a whole new level of subquantum kinetics. as Paul LaViolette calls it, that will make the atom bomb look like a water balloon

at a Fourth of July panic. You know, I mean, we're talking, there's a guy named Chukinoff, a Russian scientist who studied plasma physics, and he got really into ball lightning and recreating it in the lab. And he says, Chukinov, and you can go to Chukanov,

you know so just google a ball lightning hopes and fears chukinoff and he he has this um theory that ball lightning is a source of unlimited energy that it's a 2d macroscopic quantum object that he has a 2d center and a three-dimensional layer of electrons around the shell and those electrons are constantly exchanging energy with the quantum vacuum And then you can use that energy as an unlimited energy supply, but you can also turn it into a weapon, which is something he calls a quantum photon bomb. Sounds lovely. Millions of times more powerful than an atom bomb because it taps into the vacuum sort of non-local energy. And he said you can make this in your garage for $5,000.

Yeah. The high power microwave, a crystal, an electron gun, some other stuff. And this might be the keys to the kingdom. But I mean, you know, when you say that, it makes me kind of thankful that there are these watch guards on both the human and the non-human side. I feel like these are necessary guardrails, you know, because if we're working, it's either one of two options. If we are working with a non-human component here to, I don't know, to gatekeep disclosure in some capacity, then it's either one of two things. Either one, there's like a malevolence here and it's like a control system and they want to do it for their own benefit, their own agenda. and they have an agreement with the evil government.

And that's one side. And the other side is, no, you'll kill yourselves and probably kill more things that you can't even see. You're hurting worlds that exist within worlds that you can't even fathom by splitting an atom. You have no idea what you're doing. And we need to babysit you, and we need a group of humans to understand this.

And hey, here, we'll give you some tech to help you contain it because, Yeah, you guys are not headed in the right direction. It can't be any other way. Yeah. Planets are more valuable than people. Sure. This is a universe that is absolutely chockful of both.

So we have life at all levels of existence, but the planets themselves are jewels of the universe. So protecting those planets and it would be the negentropic thing to do. Yeah. You know, it would be the thing that. There's nothing else. Right. Like, why wouldn't you do that? Yeah.

Why wouldn't you do that? And I guess that gets into another conversation, which is the thing that I, one of my biases or preconceptions was that there were good aliens and bad aliens. But as you progress up the level of technology. You were the bad aliens. Yeah. That's exactly. Exactly. Yeah. There's, they're all, there's varying degrees of good and bad. I mean, whatever you want to put on a spectrum, if you want to do something like that, it's just you zoom out far enough and there is no good or bad, but we're clearly having a negative effect here. Yeah. And, and that's okay. Yeah. You know, that's right where we're supposed to be. I agree. And we're supposed to be sort of waking up to this, you know, wider cosmos. It's a freedom. The cosmos recognizing what kind of universe.

we live in is a freedom. It's a, you could call it a God-given freedom. And we have the right to understand the universe we live in. And if we don't understand the universe we live in, then we're kind of like bulls in an invisible China shop. We're smashing into shit that we don't even know exists. So that this is part of the process. Part of the process of what you call the ontocalypse.

I love that word. On topolipse, yeah, that's not my word, but I love the word. Sure. Yeah, it's, there's gentle, you know, ontocalypses. Like what we're doing now. Right. And then there's not so, not so gentle. You know, you said something in this book, which I love a little quote here. Perhaps the greatest mystery in modern history is that of alien visitation. The second greatest mystery is why we were ignoring the greatest mystery.

I love that because it is true. It sounds insane. Yeah, it does. To have this pot of gold be presented in front of you being like, hey, this is, this is it. This is the, the Ark of the Covenant. This is the Holy Grail. Endless wonders. Yeah, you have it all. Yeah.

All. And then for us not to even want to look at it. Right. What's going on there? And then also trying to recreate. it elsewhere. It's like, it's right here. Gil Levin discovered evidence of life on Mars in the 70s with the two Viking rovers or the landers, you know, and both landers. They did five labeled release experiments on two locations.

They both came up positive every single time. They ran the experiment in several different ways, and they all came back positive for microbial life on Mars. Now, NASA, for whatever reason, decided not to go with that finding. They said, well, there must be some other explanation. And Gil Levin spent the rest of his life trying to disprove his own theory, saying, okay, what is the other explanation? And he ran all the different chemicals and all the different experiments. and all the different ways that they may have gotten some sort of false positive

out of the fact that there is microbial life on Mars right now as we speak. I mean, that's the evidence, you know. The next step would be to send another over there and do some more experiments and see if you could prove or disprove that idea. But we haven't done that yet. We have not sent another experiment. We've spent a lot of money going back to Mars. Not one of them.

I said, yeah, let's follow up on that crazy Gill-Levin experiment, not one of them. And that tells me that there is resistance to the idea that even there might be life on one of the planet. Yeah, it makes no sense that you would not go back. I mean, panspermia, you know, that doesn't even prove that there's life in the galaxy. No, but it just gives us hope. It gives us the possibility. It's one more dot. Yeah.

But we haven't even made that, duh. So when people come and they say disclosure is coming next week, ain't no fucking way. Disclosure is coming next week. We can't even admit that there's microbes on Mars right now. Yeah, yeah. It's going to be microbes on Mars. Then it'll be structures on Mars.

And then from there it'll be, you know, you keep it away from Earth a little bit and then eventually bring it home. But like even to the NASA point, like, I find it's still strange that we barely have. photos of the earth. Right. I don't even know why that is. Like, I'm always like, wait, what?

They're like, no, it's a composite. You're like, what do you mean? It's a composite. Right. Well, because like the satellites are not far enough out to take a photo of the earth. So we have to like compose them. And I'm like, okay, how many things have we sent out of orbit into deep space? Oh, quite a few.

You didn't think you might want to strap one camera, one GoPro, one anything, and just take a, take a selfie. Artemis. Yeah. You know, where's all the footage from Artemis? Yeah. Artemis, too. Well, they took a lot of moon photos, a ton of moon photos. There's a lot of moon photos that I didn't see.

I looked at the Artemis photos. Yeah. These are really crappy. Yeah, there's a lot of the phone ones are pretty good, actually. The ones from the iPhone. The guy from the iPhone is the better photos that. Yeah. Yeah, that was an incredible mission when you look at that and you're like, oh, my God, slingshoting around the moon.

Yeah, I mean, it was amazing. Yeah. But where is the data? Yeah, there does seem to be like stuff that I don't know for what reason, but they don't want to take photos out of it. Lemon time. Yeah. You know, they did that in the 90s.

Yeah, I mean, the blue pearl was, you know, how old is that photo? And that's like still to this day, like over 50 years. Maybe the best photo we have, yeah. Blue marble. The blue marble, that's right. Yeah. And, you know, I don't know. I don't know what the reasoning there is.

I do find it suspicious for some reason. I don't know what the reason is, but like part of me goes to, well, maybe there's shit around our planet that's hanging out. Right. And that they're just like, that's going to be a lot of airbrushing. We don't want to do that. You know what I mean? Absolutely.

That might be it. They don't want people to be thinking in that direction. I don't want to encourage that kind of those kind of inquiries. Yeah, not yet. That's not part of the plan. It's not part of the plan because once you make that leap, then you discover that there is this other technological society, more than one, but at least one, that's been building a bridge. of their own technology to Earth. And we've been building our own technology.

And there's a gap there that we can then bridge with our technology to reach their technology, which would be a complete transformation of the way we organize and run this planet. You know, not just energy, but in all areas of, you know, what I like to. like to call the human control system. And the human control system is deeply embedded in our system. It's, you know, it starts with school. It's media. It's the government. It's the military. And the heart of the human control system is language. Language is the baseline operating system for all of the other control systems. It's the first thing we learn. It's the first thing that was download. it into our heads and it's the bridge that we use. And the only bridge we use to communicate

with each other is symbolic. We won't have any other way of reaching into my head and pulling out thoughts and delivering them to you. It's through this language. And that's been crafted as a control system that can be superseded and outgrown. Of course. Yeah. It's the best modality that we have right for communicating other than perhaps like memes and like videos and yeah all that's part of the language you can speak architecture you can speak with dancing i see but it's all symbols yeah and yeah it all represents things right right it's not the thing exactly yeah and and the thing itself would be the thought forms would be the literal experience so telepathy is not like mental radio no it's it's emotion it's feeling and experience.

Experience, yeah. Like, if you went to a concert and you saw this amazing concert and there was a great moment there and, you know, you met someone he hadn't seen in years and you wanted to share that with me, you could download that experience with all his thoughts and feelings and a 360 degree, not just your point of view, but all points of view. Yeah. Because that exists, that information, you could share that with me instantaneously. Mm-hmm.

And that is real communication that, that breaks. the barrier. Yeah, and it's more, it's simpler, yet more sophisticated. Right, right. You have a, and more specific. Like, you know, I'd liken it to like if a caveman is sitting on the edge of a cliff and looking out at everything and there's a rainbow and there's a maybe a double rainbow and there's like a suns, or whatever, it's just the most beautiful thing he's ever seen. And, you know, I write a book about this. I write a book about the scene.

It's a 900-page book describing everything. Right. Down to the smell, down to the sound of the animals and the homeostasis rhythm and everything. It's just described perfectly in this book. Right. But the caveman looks at it and you just goes, ugh. Right? And like that communicates way more to me.

Like who's more intelligent, right? Me who wrote this, like, giant novel. Right. Or this guy who just goes, and you get it. And Jim Sparks, who was taught on the. the ships, how to how to condense language into the, into a symbol, the size of a 50 cent piece. Yeah. And he said there would be a whole novel of information in just the symbols that were embedded

in this tiny sort of symbology, the size of a single piece. Exactly. That contained information that you could then download sort of instantation. Sure, yeah. That's incredible. Sacred geometry and whatnot. That is the next level to. society to communication, to sharing information.

Technology. Technology. Sure. And that's a transformative event for all of us. And I think that that is one of the things that we're being sort of, you know, shied away from. That's why sci phenomena, that's why sci phenomena refuses to be investigated or science refuses to investigate all of, all of that stuff. It's more than just flippant ignorance of woo-woo.

stuff. We're talking about border work that's being done to guard the fortress of society. Yeah, because once that opens, it doesn't close. And it's opening. It's opening right now. I want a cup of tea. Yeah, let's take a little break. All right. I should record this.

Yeah. It can, synchronicity can change your life. But opening yourself up to synchronicity is is a technology. And it can be, it can be learned, you know, it can be. I agree.

And I think that that's what the Golden Dawn was doing. I think that that's what some of these magic with a K sort of efforts were imbueing in people. We were talking about this last night. And that's what I was thinking about last night when we were, after we left, that we're, probing the outer garments of something that isn't science and it isn't religion.

It's something that both religion and science have been. Yeah, it's fundamental. Right. And there's a fundamental revolution in how we can understand the universe that will lead to technologies to how to how to utilize this fundamental essence that you were just talking about, which is defined as. Love. Yeah. I have been recently in the last, well, the last few years, but more specifically, in the last few months, implementing synchronicity engines in my life. So I will introduce random probability, you know, whether it's bibliomancy, whether it's, I have apps. So like that sends me a word every hour on the hour, a word that I might not know, like a new word. Right. And sometimes that'll be incredibly synchronous.

Okay. Nate. Just for fun. Yeah. Give us one. Verism. That's right now. That's the word that I just got.

What's it mean? The style emphasizing realism and truth in art. Okay. That'll be the name of the new technology. Verism. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that is, I do believe that synchronicity plays an important part if you want it to and if you let it.

I think, and that's something that I've learned through my personal experiences, and it can be debated. What's beautiful about synchronicity, what I really find genuinely like beautiful as a magician, there is a duality of the nature of synchronicity because on one side, it's coincidence. And on the other side, just coincidence with meaning, right? We're talking about the same thing. Right. You're talking about coincidence. I'm talking about synchronicity. We are literally saying the same things.

Right, right. Oh, you wouldn't believe this happened, whatever. It's the same thing we're talking about. Right. Yet the interpretation of the information changes everything. Because of the observer effect. Correct. But you're going about your life.

Right. proving to me that it's just chance. And that will affect your life in this way. And that's what you'll get. Yeah. And I'm going into it thinking, I don't think it is. I think there's something more to it. But statistically on paper, they're going to look identical.

Right. You know, they'll both see, like, I mean, when someone describes a synchronicity to me, I'm like, that's the definition of a coincidence. Right. It's the very definition of a coincidence. Which is why it's so easy to hide. which is the beautiful duality of it, is that this skeptic, physical, materialist reality can coexist next to this, you know, fringe, esoteric, spiritual, whatever reality.

And they can coexist together forever. And you can live happily. If you're down here or down here, you might as well take the more magical road and live a more magical life, in my opinion. Which is why I believe. is the most powerful thing in the universe, you know, because that synchronous moment, it opens the door for it to be shared and create a shared experience.

Like when you're doing your magic and you have a moment, which is beyond your ability to comprehend, but it's a moment that happens with everyone. And then this egregore is created through the commingling of consciousness, observer experiences together, you're creating a third thing, whereas chance, that'll never happen. Yeah.

That won't happen. Yeah. That gets cut off at the base, even though it's the same experience, you know? And that fostering of belief is what opens the door to this new technology. So we actually need belief as a component and belief can be used as a control system. Sure. Because you can believe that you'll go to hell unless you, you know, pay off the priest, you know, with some, yeah, with your, uh, whatever. 16 Hail Marys or whatever. Yeah. And they were even like literally paying them off. They were buying their sins back in the day. Which is like Luther, Martin Luther started the printing,

with the printing press, tacking that shit up onto the church doors, saying, this is what's going on here. And that was the beginning of the end of the church, which is why they hated the printing press. They loved it at first, and then they hated it because they were exposing the control system that the church really was. Now science has taken over. Now we believe in science. Well, I trust the science. And that becomes a control system. It becomes a religion.

Right. But the belief is the common thread that moves through all of that, including the belief in things like synchronicity, things like Cy, Gertrude Schmich. Meadler with her sheep's and goats. You know, the sheep's had a much higher chance of experiencing sci phenomenon, whereas the goats, they were, they were, the nonbelievers, they had a much lower chance of seeing or experiencing anything like that. And what's beautiful once again is that feeds into confirmation bias. So again, we're met with where the skeptic approach can make perfect sense. And so can be. Exactly.

So they're both coexisting. And every argument you have, the other side will have an equal and opposite argument. The only metric you can have is the outcome. And so when you have somebody living their life in a way that favors synchronicity, that favors perhaps a little bit more of a magical existence, and you see that the outcome of their life is them being genuinely content. And I'm not talking about success. I'm not talking about manifesting a yacht.

I'm talking about looking at someone and realizing that this person is leading an objectively happier life or at least a more content and fuller life than the person who is sort of in a curmudgyny attitude being skeptical about everything and proving that everything that this person, did, well, that's just BS. It's all chance. Yeah, but what's not chance is that this person is living with a full heart. Right. And this person is really looking desperately for meaning in their life. Well, said, I like done a lot. But they can coexist. You can't logic your way out of it. Yeah, but you can, you can, you know, you can create that illusion that like, yeah, they're the same thing, of course. But that's the beauty of it is that they do. You can prove one with the other, sure. But tying yourself to a materialist scientific viewpoint and saying, I'm open to this stuff, I just haven't seen it, because you're going to have to, you know, using logic, you're never going to make the leap. Yeah.

There's only one way to make the leap, and that's to make the leap. Sure. Yep. Yeah. And you can't package anything into, like, you can't take something from another dimension. and then try to package it into this one and try to explain it away with the tools that I have developed in this dimension.

It's just not how that works. We have human tools that developed here on Earth for human ends, and we're trying to use these tools to explore this alien architecture that we have little hope of grasping. Yeah. Yeah, this is the tool.

Yeah. I'd like to, if you're up for it, I'd like to speak about your encounter. You know, you've not talked about it much and it's something that's deeply, deeply personal. I haven't talked about it at all. Yeah, I told, I've had a couple of people that I respect and admire asked me to talk about it on different podcasts. But, you know, I, um, I, um, I, um, I, um. I can't talk about it, especially through the lens of a interface of a microphone and a camera. It's not something that I could share unless I was sitting across from a human being who I trusted and was genuinely.

open to the possibilities. And I don't even know what all the possibilities are. I really don't. And I haven't talked about it at all. I won't say that it's sacred. It's sacred and it's profane. It marks a intersection in my life that that there was no going back from. I didn't ask for it. I didn't have any concept of anything that existed outside of the little world that I had been perfectly content to believe was perfectly real. And the mundane world is beautiful.

And there are, you know, magical things about it. There's a lot of magic in the world. But I just wasn't prepared. and just wasn't prepared for any of it, you know. And it changed my life. Changed my life. It changed my entire life. Things that I was interested in, you know, like women and art and success,

none of those things mattered anymore. And I didn't know what matter. I didn't know what did. I mean, I had my daughter. I had the core, you know, reality that I cared about. And probably, if it's possible, cared more about afterwards. But yeah, from one day to the next, I got to take this jacket off. It's getting hot in here.

Yeah. Where some see heroes and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. while others follow the noise we follow the money learn more at bloomberg.com yeah okay so 2011

2011 yeah I was married for nine something years I was getting a divorce living alone my daughter was with her mom it was summer it was probably August

probably about this time year and um i i can't sleep i've had this problem my whole life uh and uh so i have this ritual when i wake up in the middle of the night i'd usually get a couple of hours and then i'd be up in the middle of the night um and a lot of the times i just wouldn't be able to get to sleep and uh was taking homeopathic stuff which didn't really seem to do anything for me me, I wasn't taking melatonin because I didn't like it. But you get up in the middle of the night and get out of bed. The doctor said, you know, don't lay in bed.

Get out of bed, go read. So this was a ritual that I would have. You get out of bed, grab a book, and lay on the couch. And so it's, you know, probably two or three o'clock in the morning. I didn't know. I didn't bring my phone with me. Don't look at the phone. Don't look at an iPad.

You know, the blue light and all that stuff. So I'm laying on my couch. So I've got a window here. The couch goes this way. And I've got a ceiling that looks like this with some beams on it. And the beams are running. this way and my ceiling the uh the widow's peak thing is over there and i'm reading my book and uh um out of the top of my eye i see a fuzz a fuzz ball a ball of fuzz maybe the size of a um

baseball and it's fuzzy and I'm looking at it and going that's like an out of focus spot what the fuck is that and then the spot starts getting bigger and it starts leaving the wall and floating through the air as this moving ball of fuzz and as it gets closer to me It starts to resolve into these three shapes. They're about maybe the size of a large dinner plate, each of them, maybe like that big. So there'd be like these three butterflies shapes without a head. It was like a snow angel, if you made a snow angel in the snow,

these things that look like that, just like that. And there's three of them. The middle one, its wings are connected to the two outer ones. And this thing is coming towards me. And I'm thinking, I'm going to die. This is what happens. This is what happens when you die. Fuck, this is really bad.

And this thing starts coming down and I have a coffee table that runs this way. And I see that these butterflies are made out of like laser thread. green thread, red thread, and then green and then red. They're maybe a quarter inch apart. So they're the outline of these three butterflies. And in the center is this little baby butterfly in each center. And in those centers, the two threads, one green, one red, are forming geometric patterns in the middle.

and each middle is different. So there's each core is forming three different geometric shapes. The shape would last for about half a second and then change. And then the little threads would start weaving again and then they'd form another perfect geometrical shape that I'd never seen before in my life. They weren't like triangles. They were like complex geometrical, mathematical, mathematics. symbols in each one, three of them, all going at once at different times. And I'm thinking,

obviously, these are what happens is to come and take me away. And I have, all I feel is terror. 100% unbridled fear is running through me. I'm not jumping up. I'm not running outside. I'm not yelling, I'm frozen in fear. And these things, they stop and they hover over my coffee table. And they just sit there. And they're blasting out these alien geometries. And I'm panicking. And nothing, nothing happens. They just sit there. They're just sitting there. And I'm laying like this and looking at these damn things. And I'm my, I'm just sweating. absolutely terrified frozen in fear and you know it was only later like days later that i was like what the fuck was i doing you know why didn't i like you know like do something swat them away or

yell at them or you know like all the things that you would normally do i didn't do any of that stuff and uh we just sat there for for a while and then they started moving towards me and i the panic shot through me again. I would freak out. And they stopped and they backed off. I don't think what the fuck is going on? What are you guys doing? What the fuck are you? And what the fuck is happening? And then my heartbeat would start slowing down because they weren't doing anything. They're just sitting there. So eventually I would, my breathing would kind of return to normal and then they'd start creeping forward again. And then I would panic again. And then they would. And then they would would back off again.

And this maybe took 45 minutes of this. That's such a long time. It's beyond a long time, especially when, I mean, just, there's only later, I know that I, we'll get there. So these things eventually start creeping towards this again. This dance is going over and over and over. I freak out. What the fuck are you doing?

What the fuck are you? What is happening? They back off. They wait. I calm down. They move forward over and over till finally I'm just sort of like, okay, well, they're not doing anything and they start and I keep my breathing under control enough and they start moving over my body. So now they're right in front of me, hovering, you know, over my midsection, you know, maybe around my knees. And they're over my body now and now I'm looking at them head on.

and their little things are going off the three of them and they're making these incredible patterns and they're just sitting there. They're just showing me. They're showing me these insane alien geometries in two colors that look three-dimensional. And, you know, the things themselves are 2D. I don't have depth.

They're just these flat alien interdimensional butterflies and they're sitting there and they're making these alien symbols at me. and I start to calm down a little bit and I'm thinking of myself I now if this is a hallucination it's a hell of a hallucination because there's no way that my brain could be coming up with these patterns that I swear to God I have nuts and I had time to look at them and go what are those things what are they are they is it a language is it a symbol but but what they were and I tried drawing them later and I couldn't because I couldn't wrap my mind around what they were.

I knew they were mathematical. They were perfectly. They were precise. They were in these two laser thread colors and they had depth. Some of them had depth. This went on for quite a while. And then they started moving towards my face. And I panicked again. And now I'm thinking, oh, this is what this was about. These fuckers want to get. in me. They want, they're, they're coming, they're coming at me. They're, they want to, like, invade my body. And now I really start freaking out. Like, then, I was like, oh, my God, this whole thing was a dance. They're hypnotizing me. It doesn't matter what those little crazy symbols are. That was just to hypnotize me to get me into the state like a rabbit, you know,

like the infrasound that a tiger makes. It was just like lulling me into the sense so they were just going to overwhelm me. And I really panicked. And I thought, I was, was right all along. This really is what happens when you die. They're just taking their time about it. And they stopped and they backed off and they sat there and they kept doing what they were doing. And now I'm thinking, okay, they do want to get in me, but they want permission. They want me to say yes and they're not going to come in until i let them and i was like guess what that's never happening that is not a thing that is going to happen between us and they just sat there and did their thing and i'm like you know we can do this all night now i'm being flippant about it now but at the time

it was terror and i wasn't speaking i was thinking these things in my mind like this this can't be No, fuck no. And then they start coming towards me again. And then I panic, they back off again. And this goes on for probably another half an hour, 45 minutes. Yeah. This was not going away. This was not a fuzzy, hallucinatory, you know, experience.

This was wide awake in the middle of the night. Like you and me right here. if this is real, then that was real. I don't know what else to tell you. If this was real, then that was real. And they were not going away. They just were not giving up. I mean, it just went on for fucking ever.

And so finally, I was exhausted. The kind of fear that would go through me wasn't just, you know, like, freaking out. It was like sharp. I could feel it in my skin. It was the kind of hormonal release in my body that hurt my skin. Like it was like waves of fear and adrenaline. That was a physical sort of my skin was hurting. I remember thinking, oh, this hurts every time this fucking things come at me. And that panic runs through me. It's painful. And but eventually I just I think they wore me down. I think they, they, and I was, and I was, I came to the conclusion that if these guys were here to hurt me or do something nefarious, that they wouldn't be, you know, being so polite about it.

They wouldn't be so, they obviously wanted me to calm down. I mean, it took a long time for that to sink in. But finally, I'd sunk in. They want me to calm down. They're not, they're not, I'm going to have to take the leap and say that they're not here to hurt me. So I said, okay, in my mind, I said, okay, do what you ought to do. And just like they heard me, they just started, they started coming in. They started coming at me.

And they started, got closer, and they got closer, and they got closer. and when they got about to hear, I closed my eyes. And I felt the threads pass through me. I felt those vibratory, laser-like threads pass into my skin, pass into my bones, into my body, and I could see them. I could see these threads and they felt like they were elongating. So they didn't just pass through like that.

They passed through and then they elongated. So they kept passing through. Like, you know, they just got longer and longer and longer. And they were passing through me and passing through me. This is really weird. And then I got an erection. This rush of hormones went through my body, gave me a heart on. And this flood of like good feeling, you know, this relaxation, this release.

This, and it felt like hormones being released in my body, like things were, the chemicals were sort of being unleashed or released in my body. And that's the last thing I remember. I, my consciousness drifted off. It just, it took, and I don't, it wasn't like turning out a light. It was just sort of like getting dimmer and dimmer and thoughts, you know, just drifted off. And I remember climbing into bed. And I remember thinking that the sun was coming up. And I could still see the afterburn of those creatures in my mind because I'd been staring at them for so long.

And I remember thinking, yeah, that's probably why. Because as my eyes were closed, climbing into bed, I don't remember getting off the couch, but I remember climbing into bed and still seeing the red and green threads in my sort of afterburned sort of eyeballs and thinking that that was why, and then I fell asleep. And then I never woke up.

The next day, I was somebody else. Just like that. Just like that. just like that lights out on that life lights on and i you know i wasn't left with anything i was just left with was that what the fuck was that you know the next day i was just off on you know on trying to figure out what the hell it happened to me you know i don't know what the hell was that so years later um uh edgar mitchell put out his really thick

experiencer book where they interviewed something like 3,500 different experiences and they put that all together. It's a great book, the free book. Yep. And according to their surveys,

the number one reported encounter is with an energy being. And the number two reported encounter was with some form of gray alien. And the number one place it happens. is in your bedroom yeah yeah yeah the uh the the um that made me that was interesting you know

that uh that i think that came out in 2017 or something like that uh 2018 like that yeah it was the biggest study done of like experiencers and it's what showed that they were mostly benevolent as well and yeah yeah and the human the humanesque types are also almost equally reported with the gray. There's a lot of different kinds of grays. And this energy being thing, you know, there's, there's orbs, there's intelligent plasmas. But I have yet to define these guys. So if anybody out there knows anything, I'd love to know.

So you said, you know, obviously this changed. you from one day or the next, you were just a completely different person. Did you feel in any sense different, not because of the sort of traumatic experience of witnessing something so insane? But did you feel change perhaps because of something they left you? I don't think so. So. I've asked myself that. Yeah.

I didn't get any psychic powers. No downloads. I didn't get any downloads. None that you know of. I, uh, you know. So I don't know. I, I was, I went through a period where I was really, uh, I felt like I failed somehow, like it was a test and I failed because I, nothing happened.

They didn't come back. They didn't, uh, you know, I wanted, after that, you know, I wanted answers. I wanted them to come back so I could, you know, try to, try to get some more information. Do you have any dreams about them or just nothing? Nothing. It's so strange how it's so one-sided. Very one-sided. But is it though, right?

Because like, sure, okay, maybe they got what they needed from you somehow because clearly they wanted something from you. Like that they wanted in. They want it right? And they and they, but they needed your consent. I did. But what it left you. was a deeper sense of reality. I mean, you've, it completely changed your outlook

on everything, right? And maybe perhaps due to the experience that you had trying to build yourself up after that, but even so. Shattered my entire life. Yeah. No, I mean, nothing made sense anymore after that. And I was disrobed of my illusions that I thought I knew what the hell was going on around here.

I don't. I don't know a damn thing. I don't know anything. And that has never left. I just don't know anything. And that's a nice place to start, you know? A really interesting place to start. I don't have the tools to navigate or whatever that.

was we don't have any answers we don't we can we can try to land one of the one of the hardest things is to resist the temptation to land on something you know just say well these were angels you know and then find religion you know or or or any any of the other you know sort of narratives that I could invent, and I could build a whole dots around a number of different narratives, but I don't have any narratives, you know. But it did lead me to try to sort of,

well, what it did was show me that the, and the first thing that I found, I talked to a psychic, I mean, I didn't believe in psychics, but I've talked to, to one. I talked to all kinds of different people. And I've really, and, and, and Leslie Keen, her book, UFOs, generals, pilots, you know, talk about that that book is from 2011. That book was brand new. It just came out. I snatched that up and that and that was something concrete that I could

hang my hat on and go, okay, something's going on here. Something is. happening, you know, and that led me down the road and that was the closest thing I could find to, uh, of a rabbit trail that would lead to some sort of answers about what kind of universe we're really living in. And that really became the question for me, what kind of universe is this really? What's really going on here? Come on. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure a lot of people in your position that have had these earth-shattering experiences that are so deeply personal that even saying them out loud feels like you're taking the air out of it, you know? But I'm sure a lot of those people like yourself have found solace in works like Leslie Keynes or even the 2017 New York Times article.

Think of it what you will. but it provides, like you said, some level of concretizing an experience that lives only in this one person's, you know, rear view and in their mind. It doesn't exist out here anywhere. And you can't read on it. You can't look for it. And then when you have something like that, it's got to be a good feeling. You have, you know, dots that you can put together. You have other people that have had these similar types of experiences.

And that's the only reason that I would talk about it, you know, is to try to offer back some of the solace that I took when I started reading and listening to other people's experiences that happened to them that they went through, that also changed their lives in all kinds of different ways. And I think that it's time for us to make it okay to talk about this stuff. I don't have any answers. I have no clue except for I know what happened to me. I don't know what I saw.

And other people do too. Did you face, did you talk about this at all when this came out? No. You just kept it to yourself. I told my daughter. Wow. And that was it. Yeah, I told her briefly.

Yeah, yeah. She was young. And even then you're kind of like pulling your punches because you don't want to overwhelm anyone. You don't want anyone to think, you know, you've lost the plot. And then I told a friend, a pretty good friend of mine, I was a bad idea. So I kind of cut that off. Did they make fun? No, no, I just don't know what to do with it.

Right. You know, you just don't. As soon as you start talking, as soon as I started talking about it, I was like, this is not, this was a mistake. Right. I don't, you know, this is not, nobody's prepared for any, anything. Yeah, what are you supposed to do with that, right? Yeah, right, right, right. I needed to, you know, I wanted to let it.

Right after it happened. I needed to share it with somebody, but that was a bad idea. I told my sister. I mean, I wouldn't say it was a bad idea. It was probably a good idea, but probably just, yeah, maybe not timely. I told my sister, she came over, you know, her birthday was in August. So we were celebrating her birthday. And then, yeah, that was one of the last times we hung out together, you know,

and she died a few months after that. But that was sort of one of the, she was a little more, you know, I grew up with her. So she was a little more, I got a little more out of that interaction. More receptive. Yeah. But, you know, you quickly learn that this is not something that, that you're that's going to help. You're not, you're not going to get any answers and you're not,

and you're not going to make you feel any better. Right. By sharing this, you know. You might just like push people away. Yeah. That's, you totally understand it. It's totally understandable. Yeah.

Yeah. That rationality that you have about it is something that I found in most experiencers that I hold in high conviction is the sense of, I get it. you're going to think I'm crazy. I get it. I would too. And that is said by everybody who's had these experience.

If I were you, I wouldn't believe me. There's no way you can believe. Exactly. But that's also for me, like a really, that increases my conviction on it because that's how I would be too. If I try to imagine something like that happened to me, I'd be like, how do I even? And especially, you know, people know me as a magician. They're going to think, oh, this is just some trick or something? Like, how would I even communicate that?

And the need to want to communicate it and be understood and connect with people is probably really dire. I had to write it down. Yeah. I had to write the book. The book's not for even people who are alive right now. The book is for the future. The book is for when we can understand these kind of experiences in a better light. And I'm hoping that it's helpful to people in the present.

You know, but we're really, we're laying the groundwork for a new ontology that is coming. And we will get there. And we're getting there now. And every voice that we, we can use everybody's voice right now. We really can. This is, I was saying earlier that, you know, understanding what kind of cosmos we really live in is a freedom. Freedoms are never granted. They're taken.

Every time in history. Freedom of speech, you know. the freedom of equality, these are taken. They're never granted. Disclosure is not going to be granted to us. We are going to take it. And we're going to do it by sharing these kinds of experiences with each other and building the bridge to what the real world looks like.

It's the only way to do it. That's what the watch guard said. Revolt. Yeah, you can build the world, you know. A revolution can be done. Huh. Do you need to do it yourself? Could you draw what the being look like?

Just so I can show the audience, give them a loose idea of perhaps. You just have to imagine that there's three of these. Yeah. This guy will help me cut off. Basically take these guys, this is all fucked up. That's okay. So they were like concentric lines. Alternating one red thread, one green thread, laser thin, like threads.

Like threads made a laser. Were they physical or did you see through them? They were physically. They couldn't see through the threads. Right. So they were like dense. They had a density to them. They had a laser quality to them.

They were glowing threads. Yeah. Wow. And green and red, too. That's got to be such a strange visual distortion, seeing threads so closely together, like some illusion, like how many would you say of these threads in sort of in this concentric pattern? I would just be guessing. Hundreds or dozens? Yeah, yeah. I would, you know, I would just be guessing. You could count them if you had, too. I thought you had to count them. Yeah.

That there may be anywhere between 50 and 75. Okay. Yeah, a lot, yeah. But it would limit, you know, a lot, but not infinite. I mean, basically as many threads, each one was about that big. And then the center would have been the little baby dude, baby butterfly. And that's where the little shapes. If you had to draw the shape, just the shape, like one shape in particular that you might have seen,

is there any way that you could or is it like a, it's like a tesseract essentially, like a fourth dimensional object depicted in three dimensions or something? It only lasted for maybe let, maybe a half a second. You know, it would be frozen in space, the image. Sorry, the image would be frozen in space for, Half a second. Really? And then the threads would disentangle.

They'd start whipping around each other. And then they'd freeze again with another brand new shape. How strange. Just the general idea. Like was that, do you think, I mean, you've probably contemplated this in so many ways. It must be so frustrating to an extent because you're not given any clear answers. And all you can do is sort of impose your own. anthropomorphic view on it like are they communicating with each other are they trying to communicate

with you are they are they talking is this even a language is it random is it well it wasn't random yeah i mean it was really specific whatever the hell they were and i never saw the same shape twice really yeah so you know we're in a language you'd think they were there'd be some sort of word the comes back or something yeah yeah never saw the same one twice and uh no the uh the the middle of the damn thing would have been something like this you know it was sort of a and then the two threads you know one would come in this way and the other would come in that like they were weaving something like a spider that's right just like a spider and it was like creating yeah A symbol.

And then there would be this, you know, this. It's this weird little architect. Incredible architecture inside this thing that would be, you know, what the hell they were. Can't. Yeah, no, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't know where to begin either, but that's, thank you. That's fascinating.

Yeah. So you got the, you got the impression that these were three distinct entities. This wasn't one entity or was that? I couldn't tell. Yeah. I mean, there's no answer there. That's what's so frustrating about this. Like there's no precedent and there's no comparison.

Sometimes I wonder if the whole thing wasn't a technology. Right. Like something else was outside the room. Yeah. This thing may have been something that was created for a purpose and they send it in, you know. Jeez. It's like the CIA out in a van and they're sending in some microwaves through a window. Yeah.

How to burn somebody's hands or something. it, you know, but this is sort of an interdimensional technology being sent from some other dimension into my living room. I don't know. I can't imagine, you know, if you were to apply religious lens to that and you were, this was, this happened 800 years ago. Which you would definitely do. You know, what would it look? It would be angels, right? It would be angels. It would be either angels or demons. Like, I mean, those are the, that's the binary, you know, there's the amount of options you have. That's right.

But that would definitely be, ah, man, it's so strange. That's so strange. Because here we are, this clearly physical object that is behaving so strangely that seemed to have appeared out of nowhere,

this apparition. And for... A ball of fuzz. Yeah. So it entered. And it also caught my attention. And I've always wondered, I'm reading a book.

I'm always wondered, did I see it out of the corner? in my eye or was there a little signal sent for me to look up at it because the hypnosis started as soon as I saw the fuzz. Yeah, there's no going back to the book. I was frozen. I don't even know what happened to the book. Yeah, the book's out of the question. Yeah. But my consciousness was laser focused on that damn thing as soon as it was a ball of fuzz in the corner. And it came in where the wall met the ceiling. That crack that seam it so made its way in through a crack i don't know but it appeared right in the crack

you know in this fuzz and and it stayed there long enough for me to go the hell is that and that and that was it it was like it was on you know my my my my come something took over obviously something locked on to my consciousness at that moment yeah i remember that moment and that that's when it started And that and, and, but my thoughts were free. I was free to think all of the normal thoughts. And you weren't being put, there was nothing being put into your head. I just, I just didn't move. Couldn't you're terrified.

I didn't, I didn't think about moving. Yeah. So I don't know if I was, um, that was induced or if I, I, I don't know if I was, my body was frozen the way we read about and a lot of, you know, aliens have the ability. But you hear about that. to freeze, you know, stop a guard from drawing its gun, freeze them, but keep the autonomic nervous system intact so they can breathe and they can look around, but they can't move. But you hear about people not being sure, is what I'm saying.

There are a lot of people who said, I don't know whether I was just afraid or whether they stopped me from moving. Yeah, that's true. And then other people do feel that they've been frozen. Yeah, they've been frozen. I don't know. I think I was. I mean, I think that's not the way I would have behaved.

you know, as a normal person. It's almost, it's almost strangely predatory also. Oh, it's predatory. Do you know what I mean? Like, there was like, the way that you're describing it is, like, incredibly invasive. It's invasive. But it's so strange that, like, they would need your permission. Yeah.

Like, they needed it because otherwise they're doing, they're coming towards you anyway. They could have just kept coming towards you. They respected my free will. That makes me think that there's a benefit there for you then, too. They also didn't go away. Yeah. You know? Right.

They were just waiting for you to. They were wearing you down. They were waiting for me to give up. But they did need my permission. They did need my permission. They weren't going to, they were, whatever the experience was, it was not going to be invasive, even though it was invasive. They weren't going to. to do what they were going to do until it was an acquiescence of that we're going to do this.

Let's do this dance. We're going to do this. And it's a matter of time before you say yes. That's scary. This is happening. What's something you would have done differently in that moment? Like now that you've had time to think about it, would you be like, man, I wish I would have grabbed them or I wish I would have filmed them or I wish I would have talked to them out loud or screamed at them or thrown something at them? Is there anything you wish you would have done slightly differently?

All of those things I wish I would have done. But at the end of the day, I don't, I'm not kicking myself because there was nothing I could have done differently. There's no other way that that could have played out. Maybe a little bit long, maybe I could have held on a little bit longer before they had their way with me. But did you ever think they would have done this to another family member?

I would have liked to, gotten some answers. Sure. If I could have it my way, I would want to know what the hell, where they're, what they're from, what they want, what they're doing, what they did to me,

you know, what they got, you know, what they left. I would like answers. I'd like to know what happened when I lost consciousness. That's really what I'd like to know, but I'm actually kind of terrified. You don't want to do any of the regressive stuff? I haven't done any regressive stuff.

stuff. I'm thinking maybe, maybe that I might, but, but I'm, I don't want to. Yeah, that's fair. And I would go with your gut on that. Yeah. Do you know, do it feels right in that case? Don't force something like that. Yeah. I don't, I don't feel at the end of the day that it was, that it was, um, bad, bad, you know, that it was a negative thing. I, uh, it's, I wouldn't wish that on anybody in the world, but I'm actually incredibly grateful. Did you have anybody in the house with you? No. My daughter was at her mom's that night. Do you think it would have changed

how? Yeah, absolutely. And I thought about that a lot. If my daughter was in the other room, that would have been a completely different experience. Yeah, you go to her first. Whatever, I don't know, but it would have been a completely different experience. All I would have been thinking about. Yeah, of course. Of course, you know. But she wasn't in the house.

You need, yeah, it's probably part of of it. It's probably part of it. They probably knew that. They obviously they knew them. Gosh. I, I, it's so funny, but I desperately want you to have an answer. I know that you must obviously want your answers, but like, I want you to have an answer. I want you to have an answer. I don't want the answer. I just want you to have it. I feel like you deserve an answer. I feel like that's, show me something that's strange and don't give me an explanation. Is, you know, I don't give me an explanation, like the the sickest joke you could pull on somebody like what are you doing here like give give give give give give give something and for years this was not a thing that you could I had any inkling of that I could um

share this with anyone but it did start writing all stuff down you know I started writing stuff down right away and I knew that I needed to share the experience. I knew that became part of the journey relatively soon. I'd say within six months, I was sitting on my back deck and looking at the stars and I, and it just came over me, I need to write all this down. I need to write everything about everything that I can about all of this. And I need to write it down. If not for now, then just as record for somebody this needs to be and that just sent me on on the journey you know and that's uh it's it's where the book comes from maybe that's the whole point you know who knows i mean i i i have to kind of believe that yeah i have to believe that there's a point and i have to believe that we're slowly

building the bridge to a new to a new reality to a new life a new world yeah we can create a new world It exists. It's real. Have you ever done like psychedelics? Yeah. Have you tried to like... I have. Figure out what it was. Yeah.

Yeah. So what have you tried? What have you gone down? I smoked DMT with Paul Heineck. With Paul Heineck. Yeah. That was the reason I did it. I was like maybe they're over there.

Yeah. They're waiting for me. Let's go see them. Maybe this is the, maybe this is where I'm supposed to put the dots together and meet, meet them. And what came from that? Nothing. No. Do you have a good time? I got a lot out of it.

Yeah. I went to the center of the universe and met the mother of the cosmos. So, you know, there's a lot of value. It's not nothing. In DMD, let me tell you. Yeah, that was stunning. And I think that all of these modalities are leading us toward the same thing. I think that there is a, that the universe is constructed of a non-local essence that we call love.

It's a human word that we use to talk about an innate connection that we all share that exists everywhere and all at once and for all time. And that we're all born from this, this desire, this impulse to be, the impulse to create, the impulse to join together, to create, to create novelty, to be in the. the universe i think it's happening everywhere all at once i think it's the heart of synchronicity and uh you know we call it love because we're humans and we need to you know make make vowels funny noises come out of our mouth to talk about stuff that oh yeah i know i know what you're talking about that thing that doesn't have a very good definition but we all know what it is i think the universe is made out of that and then you know i think that's a hell of a revelation you know Well said, and I think I agree with you. I think that that to me is becoming more and more clear as I'm on this journey myself discovering things about myself, you know, through these conversations, through these very cathartic interactions. I'm also coming to that conclusion. And, you know, that's that's one of those things that like when you have a revelation like that as you go down this, it makes you feel.

good. Do you know what I mean? It's not just like an intellectual stimulant. You have an emotional stimulation that is occurring, much like the one when you create a bond with someone or a connection with someone or, you know, or have someone in your life that you care about or a memory. Like, these things are more than information on a piece of paper that we can study with science. And it's- And we can still study it was science. Yeah. But we have to start injecting some love into the situation. Yeah, I would think so. We're never going to get there. Yeah. And why not? I mean, isn't that the greatest thing in the world? I think so. Like, we'd had this conversation with Dr. Mossbridge found a substantial

increase incibility when someone was experiencing unconditional love. Such a great dot. That's such a fantastic clue. That's such a touchstone. Yeah. that Mossberg is found and put together. I mean, that is a ledge that we can build. It's the keyhole. Yeah, it really is. It's the keyhole. You're like, oh, wait.

And I think it's the beginning of learning how these entities, and I don't think they're non-human, the consciousness, the intelligence that we're dealing with, it's not non-human. It's non-local. And that non-local intelligent technology. starts with what we're calling love. This non-local essence. It's a information system. It's just not local.

Yeah, I wonder if, you know, if you go back in time, like, let's say I try to picture myself, right? Let's say I am an alien, and which I am by the very definition, but let's say I'm out here and I've developed technology that understands that love is. a very strong energy. It is a fundamental property of the universe and how technology works and everything. And I can use that to somehow bounce around the universe or, you know, talk to people in their minds or whatever it is. And I, you know, I posit this idea to myself, like if you were an alien and you were zipping around 2,000 years ago and you just, you see this like emanating force on the

planet. And you go, what is that? And like a moth to a flame, you're like, that's creation energy. That's a lot of energy where it was, oh, there's a guy there. And he's just like emanating this, you know? And like, maybe to them, I always thought like, what a strange idea to be like, you're zipping across and then that's what made them go. That, wait. Really interesting. What do we have here? We have this, you don't even know what they have these people. This is an incredible amount of technology that, you know, and maybe that's, you know, and maybe that's, That's why we're being studied. That's one of the things that Dr. Paul Parada was told on the ship or wherever the hell he was with the human-esque aliens.

Oh, really? He was up there for three days. He starts freaking out again. He's like, I want to go home. I miss my kids. I miss my family. This is really fucking weird. I'm overwhelmed.

You guys are jamming information into my head. And I can't take it. And one of the aliens goes, come here. he goes you are made of love he goes all of that all your fears all of your bullshit or all that shit away there's only one thing that matters and that's love and you connect to that love and he goes i'll show you how to do it right now and he connected paul to his family and paul says he was there in the space the laboratory but his kid his own living room appeared before him and he saw his two children playing and he saw his wife looking after the kids and paul was

overcome with his overwhelming feeling of love and he looked at one of his kids the little one the little three-year-old and he said i love you and the kid turned and looked around and smiled at him and then they kind of went away and then the aliens told him he said everybody carries within them this flame and we see that flame And we're attracted to that flame. And some people have bigger flames than others. People with the big flame, those are the people we're attracted to. We study that.

Whoa. Yeah. That's dead on. Yeah, that was the thought that I, you know, if you're traveling and you see that, you go, what is that over there, you know? And that like in my head, I was like, maybe that Jesus guy a couple thousand years ago was just this like being that had a lot of love. You see all these depictions of angels, the hearts with these beaming rays of light and stuff. And I thought maybe this is just, and who knows what he is. Yeah. You know, maybe he's also alien. I don't know. Right. Right. But, you know, that would be,

if love is a fundamental property of the universe, of understanding technology, then obviously it's of interest to people, you know, seeking it who don't have it perhaps, or don't have as much abundance of it. Yeah, and studying it and, you know, are they trying to figure out ways to create space to foster more? Sure. That's what an AI would do. Right. Right. What is love? And they would like just grow things and be like, ooh. That's the other thing Paul Parada said. He said, they don't feel emotions that we do. He said they don't have the familial attachments that we do. They don't, they're not, they're not all, you know, getting bent out of shape about shit. Now. They kind of. No extremes.

Right. Yeah. And yet they have this innate sort of fascination, but also connection to this, he described it as a flame, you know, that we all carry. And then you have these other beings from Joseph Wonderca who cried. Yeah. Yeah, weeping. Who weeped at like something very emotional, you know, and so. His pain, his own pain and frustration at the world. that he lived in. And the first thing out of his mouth was, how do we fix this?

This is a mess. Adolf Hitler just killed 40 million people. And to them, that's like overstimming. They're like, whoa, and like, that's too much emotion. We don't feel that emotion normally. They started weeping. Yeah. Incredible.

Okay. I think it's about time for some questions from the audience. What do you think you down to answer a few questions? Oh, my. Yeah. It only got a few, like three or four. All right, I'll go turn the camera on. Okay.

Let's get into some of these interesting questions. The audience always has the best questions. You know, I'm cherry-picking. Great. But as soon as your name came out, too, it was like flooded. So many people were very curious about what you had to say. Let's go here. Perspective as a storyteller, which piece or pieces of

purported fiction most closely resemble the facts. Yeah, that's a great question. Well, obviously, close encounters, they did their homework. They certainly did. The fire in the sky and a wonderful story is really too bad that they, this producers decided to completely alter the abduction experience. That has really never been filmed. And I would love to do that.

You know, I would love to film. And I've worked on a screenplay about the abduction experience. The made-for-TV movie based on the Bud Hopkins book. Oh, yeah. It wasn't bad. Yeah. No, yeah. That was creepy.

Yeah. With the hybrid stuff and, like, man, that creep me out. Yeah. Yeah, it was based. Randall Nickerson was a consultant on that as well. Yeah, they really did their homework. They really tried to get the aliens. write, you know, in fact, some of the pictures online of those aliens are still circulating.

Circulating as real aliens. They did a great job. What did you think of Disclosure Day? I'm a huge Steven Spielberg fan. Same. Yeah. Yeah. There's all there, you know, so I'm a movie lover. There's a lot to love in the Disclosure Day, you know, and I hope it opens the door to make more movies. I've got a great script about, um, Calvin Parker. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and Charles Hickson. Yeah.

The Pascagoula. The Pascagoula case, yeah. In 1973. That's a really interesting contact experience story that took over the nation in 73 and really sparked a lot of the debates that went on. And, of course, that was the year of the humanoids, according to David Webb, who wrote a fantastic monograph about that. But hell of a year, 73. all over the world, humanoid landings. It was a hell of a wave.

And Hickson and Parker really got caught up in the brunt of it. It ruined both of their lives, especially the young one. Poor Calvin, you know. That dogged him for the rest of his life. He really had trouble integrating that experience into his life. And I think that that is a wonderful story.

that needs to be told. Yeah, I'm surprised it hasn't been. There's so many stories, though, as you know, that would make for incredible movies. His two brothers wrote a wonderful screenplay. Really? Yeah. And I've got it.

I'd love to turn that into a film. You wouldn't need a whole lot of money these days to do something like that. So that's something that I have on the books. You know, I think that would be a good thing to do. Oh, definitely. That's a really compelling and strong. strange story. Also, I'm really surprised no one's done like a genuine blockbuster on Roswell. I know. Like, that blows my mind. I pitched a Roswell miniseries. I mean,

we took it around. We took it to all the things, all the studios, all the outlets, and we couldn't get anybody. They're like, yeah, it sounds like a period drama. We don't. Do you guys not know? No, you guess you'd never don't. I'd hit it from like, man, I'd hit it from such a strange angle, like for today's audience. I'd be like a 24 angle where you're one of the perhaps counterintelligence officers and it's just slice of life. Yeah. That's the way to do it. And you're just following this guy as he's like, you know, putting the kids to bed or whatever. Jesse Marcel.

Yeah, exactly. You have no idea of anything. And all of a sudden in the background, there's all this stuff happening, but you don't really know. And follow Mac Brasel. Yeah. These two guys on opposite ends, you know. It was kind of, kind of great as they both kind of change sides by the end of that experience. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah. That's a really neat story. We tried to do it as a miniseries. Maybe we make a better movie. I mean, just Roswell, you know, obviously. Or just 1947 would also work as a title. I mean, those are great title. You had the series, there's, well, I mean, there was Roswell, the series of, on like the

about, you know, some teenage kids being aliens and living among us or whatever, some heartthrobs. That makes it a little harder. It does make it a little harder. Stuff, you know, for the studios to sort of wrap their head around. Take it seriously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then. Josh Boone is a Roswell fanatic.

He's got all this wonderful research. And I'm hoping that he gets to do that. That'd be cool. There's taken by Spielberg. Yeah. The 10 part miniseries. Oh, great. And it's available on YouTube.

anybody wants to watch it, I highly recommend it because it covers, it goes so deep. Like from, from telepathic abilities, from having an alien, from screen memories of Nazis and from like crash retrieval, it's very on the nose. And that plus close encounters, plus disclosure day, this guy knows stuff. I mean, he's got it. He's playing coy. He's done his homework. Dude, he's done more than his homework. Let's be honest here.

Spielberg, I would imagine that you'd have people coming out of the woodwork to tell you what's happened. Well, so they had, you know, obviously, Jay Allen Heineck as a consultant for Close Encounters of Third Kind. They had somebody play Jacques Valet. So there was some inside baseball going on there. There was crates of, you know, skunk works and whatnot. Yes. All that stuff was, you could learn all that stuff at that time without having any insider knowledge. The hand scanner?

I've heard. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's pretty inside baseball. I think that he probably picked up some details from different people. But that was going on everywhere. Yeah. You know, like the UFO guys, the researchers, they were all picking up these little tidbits. Who consulted for disclosure day, though?

I haven't, I looked at the credits. I couldn't really find anybody that like fit the bill in terms of, you know, a whistle. But I would have had some of these whistleblowers be like, hey, what do you know? The rumor is that they approach some intelligence approach Spielberg. That's the rumor. Yeah, that's a rumor for close encounters. For close encounters, yeah. Yeah.

You know, still compelling. And Spielberg, you know, no matter what he does, it's always going to be magical. Agreed. That scene where they walk the child into the woods, I mean, gives me goosebumps. That scene is worth watching the entire. movie just for that scene the capturing the dude taking the child

in this sort of Hansel and Gretel scenario right? Because it's what it is what it is. It ends up being horrific really when you think about it you have this like oh it's cute animals this nice little gingerbread home in the middle of the woods very magical and then it starts spinning and

becoming clinical and cold and a slab dude I mean those are yeah that terrified It was like, I've read accounts about children will have like big bunny rabbits come into their room and play with them and then take them out the window. And that's how they take a lure them on to craft. That seems nefarious.

Yeah. I mean, it does. You know, in that moment when I watched that scene, I felt slighted for the kids. Like, just stay bunnies then. What are you doing? Well, you got to turn in these ugly things and like on this metal slugly. lab all of a sudden with these white lights, like just stay the deer. There's some sort of impregnation of our newest fear, of our human, the field of human

consciousness. We're being impregnated with this stuff. You know, they don't have to reveal themselves at all. They could do all of that stuff and knock every experienceer out while they're sleeping, take them onto the craft, never wake them up, then put them back in their bed. They could do that for decades. Right. Yeah, there's a reason there.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Okay. From Alan Pugach, I don't know how to pronounce that Barker. Other Hollywood figures shared UFO encounters with you, and can you share them? The answer is yes and no, because I don't have their permission. Would you share it with keeping the source anonymous? I'd rather not. Sure. Fair enough.

Fair. But how many would you say? Not very many. Okay. So a few? No. And would these be names that people would be familiar with? Sure.

Really? Yeah. What do you think is their reluctance to want to come forward? That's career or? Everyone's on the journey, you know. We're all trying to muddle our way through this. And it is not for the faint of heart. And there are consequences and there have been consequences.

And I think that that's changing. And I'm willing to say that that should change. You know, we should be a lot lighter with this. You know, we don't have to believe or not believe. We should just take this a little lighter, you know. This isn't, you know, no one is forcing poison down your throat. Just take it easy. Yeah.

It's okay. You know, we can all get along to get along. Yeah, I agree. were any of those stories did they involve beings um not that i know not mostly mostly some okay all right interesting and i'm sure you know hopefully with you know podcasts and conversations like the one we're having and the ones like this you know that'll make it uh commonplace to yeah to talk about for so many, God, there's just so many, so many people out there. I mean, yeah, we're still living in it, but we're, the, the ice is melting. Yeah. Yeah. This one from, I've answered this in a way,

but it's a maybe a different question. If you could go back and watch your 2011 experience as a fly on the wall, would you? That entire experience is burned into my head in a, in, in, in, in 1080P in a way that will never go away. And a fly on the wall, I guess that would mean sort of from an outsider perspective, right? Sort of like watching myself

go through that. No, I wouldn't want to watch myself go through that. No, that would be really embarrassing. See the utter terror on my, my face, you know, as a man who's just, you know, meeting the angels that are going to steal his soul away and, you know, die of a heart, you found the next day dead of a heart attack or something on the couch. It's like that, that's what that was, you know, that would have been the look on my face. Yeah, sheer terror. Yeah, you know, but the terror of death, you know, and that was

the other confrontation, you know, as kind of started this conversation, fear has been, you know, something that I think that I've been put here to, or it may be part of the lessons that I'm supposed to be learning in this life. Whoa. That just occurred to me. That's the first thing you mentioned on this conversation was that, you know, if there was a lesson for you to learn, it's overcoming that fear. Part of it.

But then what did those things do? Right. When they sensed you were fearful, they stepped back. back. Yeah. They were helping you learn that lesson. It's possible. Whoa.

I mean, whether that was intentional or not, I don't know, but maybe. Yeah. Maybe. Well, or maybe just a synchronicity. Right. Right. Okay. Last one here from T.H. Perry.

This is a good one, because you got a lot of these in your book. Older UFO cases most shape how you see the phenomenon's long history. The phenomenon's long history, how I see the phenomenon's long history, right? So, well, it has to be the encounter cases, you know, and the earlier encounter cases are also phenomenal. And the fact that they started as far back as our records go, really, you know, and again, Preston Dennett is a great resource for this. But the cases from the 1910s, the 1920s. In Canada, there's a few there too. The 1930s, you know, the cases that happened before 47, the first worldwide UFO wave of 47 is what kicked off this sort of this whole endeavor, this whole transformation.

But the groundwork was being laid for decades before that. We just didn't have the language. And some folks like Evelyn Went, who in 1923, was playing, was that a Canadian case? She's playing in her school yard in the grass. And this ship comes down out of the middle of nowhere and these robotic flower beings get out. And they're basically her height.

She's like a seven-year-old girl in 1923. And the beings were really upset about the science building on the property. And they told her that if the work in the science building continued, they would blow it up. And this is these bizarre cases, these flower people are like, the work must stop in the science building. And then they went in their craft and they dragged out this huge, heavy instrument.

And she didn't know if it was a weapon or what the hell it was. And they asked her to help her. And she's trying to lift this. She said it was way too heavy. And then they basically put it back in the ship and took out. And they said, before they took off, they said, we're going to be back for you in 35 years. And they flew away.

They never came back. And she lived in terror for 35 years. They never did come back. 50 years later, as an older lady, she told that story in 1973 because all of the other humanoid cases were coming out. So she said she wanted her story to be recorded, even though it had started in 1923. So that was a big transformation for me, you know, just helping to sort of Yeah.

Take shape to put a shape to the phenomenon. Yeah, Udo Wartana, same kind of thing came out in the 80s. Right. And it wasn't even him that came out. They found, like, his detailed account in writing. Yeah. You know, after he passed, yeah. Yeah.

That's cool. Yeah. And being like, yeah, I was, you know, prospecting. Right. They took me on board and showed me to tech. And there's a case from the 30s in Italy. where this artist that one's

on a little if he were on because he was an artist and a writer and it just felt like he may have been kept that he told his account in the 50s so I think there's

a little bit of that going on Oh definitely I mean you look at Dan Fry you look at you know George Adamski

and this whole bizarre sort of her space brother movement which really bothers me because there really are

these tall, blonde, human-esque aliens. So I'm of two minds. Were the, were, was that contactee movement instigated by the human-esque's knowing that, that it wouldn't be believed, knowing that it, or was that groundwork laid, were those folks tapping into some sort of non-local information system where the egragor of the humanesque alien? Everyone coming together. Yeah, it comes together in the subconscious in some fashion.

Are we tapping into, you know, and that happens. That's a phenomenon. The multiples phenomenon. The calculus was invented by two people at the same time or, you know, the steam engine, four people invented it at the same time. So there seems to be this sort of non-local sort of information system that we're drawing from and that happens at certain moments in society. things reveal themselves in different ways.

I don't know. Yeah. And, you know, it's a shame because at the heart of it, a lot of these experiencer phenomena at the heart of it, there always is like some truth. And we've seen so many examples or at least, you know, nothing we can prove, but where the initial experience, you know, I'm usually pretty high conviction on. You're right. But then after that, there's like the more, you know, fantastical stuff that keeps happening.

Right. And there's Andy from that UFO pod, what I was chatting to, I think recently. And he had a really good analogy. It was like, if my son came up to me and said, Dad, I flipped the bottle and it landed. I did the bottle flip and I landed. And then, you know, I had no reason not to believe him. But then if every day after that, he's like, but I flipped it twice and it landed on the head. and then I did a backflip and I flipped it.

And it's like, and you got to keep believing him. Eventually, you kind of go, I don't know if I can believe all of this. Yeah. And then it takes away from the initial bottle flip. Exactly. And then people throw the baby out with the bathwater. And that's just kind of a tragedy. Yeah.

But we're going to get, you know, we're going to get all that. Yeah. Going to be part of it. Well, I appreciate you coming on this podcast and having a discussion with me. Not only that I appreciate spending time with me. And, and, um, I really enjoyed it. It was super fun. Yeah. And it's, it's a, there's a bit of cathartic, uh, in there too. I'm glad. Well, you're welcome anytime. Um, I hope, uh, you get, you find some resolve through this, uh, through the release of your book, which it's going to be greatly anticipated. Um, let me know, you know, when that comes out and I'll be happy to scream to the top my lungs. It's a fantastic read. I'm not just saying that. Uh, it really is well written. Thanks. Yeah.

And I've learned of a bunch of new cases because of it, so it was very exciting for me. I love that. I love digging up into the stuff. But I really appreciate it. It's such a great couple of days. And it's really neat, really neat to be in the skiff. Thanks for having me. Really.

Well, it means a lot. Pleasures all mine.