AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - Jesse Michels, UAPGerb & Chris Ramsay - Flying Saucer Diner

Episode Date: July 17, 2026

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We are completely misdirected. Yeah. Even when you're holding onto something as solid as a deck of cards. Because you talked about how just fallible memory is. And to this day, I've been trying to think about how you did that. And I just have no idea. I have no idea where I was tricked or where I'm not remembering or where that happened. I just, I have no idea.

I've seen him do the thing with the glass where the glass just moves out. It's probably the simplest thing, but I fucking love it or the straw floats out. and straws bloating. I mean, I'd never seen a magic show before. Yeah. I really hadn't even seen car tricks. Yeah, not a lot of people have. They've seen videos of it.

But seeing it in person is way different because you're always, you're one step removed on video. So it's like watching a stage show. Right. And you go, oh, there's smoke and mirrors. There's trap doors. Right. But then when it's in front of you, all those variables seem to disappear

and you're just left with nothing. Yeah, close up is crazy. You have the frustrating thing happen to you where your suspension of disbelief is unwilling. Yeah. It's not willing. You're not like, oh, I'll suspend it for the sake of the trick. You're like, no, I've exhausted my resources.

I don't know how you did that. Yeah, on the videos, you can stop it, go back frames, try to investigate. And you can see how I did that on video. That particular ones. There's certain tricks that, like, you have to cut around or certain tricks that you have to, like, do. Like, if you look at mentalism, most of the stuff happens off camera. And then when the cameras are rolling, it's a lot of word. play, I'll say that.

We never met before today, right? You know, like these type of things. And you're like, it creates the illusion that you didn't set anything up. And then you go, we didn't set anything up, right? But you don't know that you were set up if you've handed me your phone before, you know, because I was doing some pre-show magic trick to you. And I did something. And you're like, well, I blew your mind.

But now I have all the secret information on you that I'm going to reveal throughout the next hour and, you know, and, you know, play a look at me and think of this thing and like do all these. even performative bits, which is fine. But, yeah, it's not actual mindering. Well, I think you have a point about the shows being in person because, like, I haven't felt that amount of awe in, like, an interaction with a person since I was a kid.

Like, I was, I was on the edge of my seat when you were doing those tricks. And it all culminated with the plastic bar. I boggled my mind. Because Luigi walked in, that's the first thing I told Luigi. And he was like, oh, yeah. Yeah, been there, that whole thing. Speaking of which, here, I'll give you a, I'll give you a little demonstration not on not an actual magic,

but more on how magicians can use magic to obtain information. And then how that is perceived to people watching. So for instance, all right, just go ahead and just take a card out. Yep, anyone. I got a game out. Sorry. Yeah, no worse. You guiding the number from you?

Yeah, just have a look at it. You got it? Put it back? All right. But at this point, there's no way any of us know what that card is. Well, sorry, you guys know. I have no idea what this card is. Correct?

All right. So, all right, just think of this card. Just think of it. It's going to be like a bit of a poker face scenario. So I don't want you to give away any information. Okay. But I'm going to try to read from your facial expressions or your sort of micro-expressions. Anything that I can to try and determine what the card is...

Is it... Don't answer. Is it red or black? So your right eye, when I said black, moved slightly. Really? I'm going to assume it's black. Is it a club or a spade? Now, okay, so now you're trying to mask it.

And so it tells me it's a spade once again. Okay. Now, is it a picture card or a number card? Okay. It's a number card. All right. Is it high or low? High or low?

It's low. So it's a low spade. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay. There's a free choice. You could have chosen any card. Mm-hmm.

All right here. Look at this. On the finger. What the fuck? What the fuck? Is that it? Four spades. All right.

So now here's a thing. So I didn't actually read your micro expressions. This is all performative. I already knew what card you chose. How? Well, there's two ways that I can know that. Either I force the card upon you or I peek the card after, right? There's two ways to do that.

So if I forced the card on you, even though it felt like that was a free, completely free choice, it wasn't. It felt free. It wasn't, right? So this is a force. So now you're being given the card that I want you to. So now that I have information that you don't know I have, I can ask you to hide that information from me, and now I can see what that looks like. Oh, for later.

So you can read the tell. Okay. So now I have information on what your tells are. And this, for magicians or mentalists or even CIA, is really, really valuable information. So having inside information and being able to ask people questions you know the answers to, and then seeing how they dance around the answers, knowing they're trying to avoid. avoid what the truth is, you can see if they're lying or if they're telling the truth. So even the card you offered it, you know, that's a fresh pack.

Yeah. You opened it, you cut the deck once, spread it. And of, jokers included, what, 54 cards in there? You offered me up the one you wanted me to pick. Yeah. I tried to game out what you wanted me to pick and choose a different one. Yeah. So I just don't know how I was led to pick the one card you wanted me to.

It blows my mind. Isn't that interesting, though? Yeah. But that's the whole crux of the trick. Right. Because if you knew that that was even in play, that I was, and you suspected I was trying to force you a card. So you went in a different direction. But if you knew that that card was forced, you know, that would change the dynamic of how I was sort of trying to read that information.

And so it's really interesting because you take magic and I just apply it to the whole I see, you know, space. And I go, oh, my God. Like they're literally doing magic tricks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you see it on these interviews. You see it, you know, when you talk to them in person, you know they know things, but they're playing dumb. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, when I do magic tricks to these people, you know, I get to see, thank you.

Thank you. I get to see what their tells are before the podcast. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then I grill them on these questions. I probably shouldn't even be saying this on camera, you know, because they might be watching this. But that's the idea, right? Is that you get to, and then now I understand, you know, how they shift in their seat when they're trying to hide information or, you know what I mean.

So it helps. Well, even you told me I was giving off micro expressions. After you said that when I was answering, I felt like my eye twitching. And I said, oh, crap, am I giving it away? And you slightly were. That's the thing, too. That's the other psychological stuff. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Yeah, there is like a whole psychological layer to trying to hide. Yeah. So it's, you know, don't think of a black cat type idea. Same thing happens. And also there's like certain, I learned this from a friend Spidey.

He does he has this behavioral arts channel and he looks at people lying. But when people scratch their nose. So when you're lying, it actually like increases. the blood flow to your face, which and this is where the Pinocchio lie comes from, because your nose slightly swells like on a microscopic level. And so that's why people would,

but that doesn't mean it's a lie. It could mean they're just trying to dance around something else. So has there ever been anybody you've had on the pod that because you're able to gauge out their micro expressions or when they're lying, you have just known or feeding you a bunch of baloney? No, because you can't tell

what they're lying about. Okay. You can only tell there's like some inconsistency in what they're saying. So like, you know, like lie detectors famously aren't lie detectors. Right. It just measures your heart rate, cortisol levels. Yeah, exactly. So it's telling you, oh, this person is stressed. You don't know what about. It could be about trying to hide the truth. Right. But it could also be about this. This reminds them of when they were a kid and they got beat up for saying this or whatever that is. Yeah. Yeah. I know we talked about this too, Jesse.

Just kind of guess on your pod that you felt may have been kind of taking you for a ride. We talked about that as well. And we talked about just the guest that you had the hardest time taking their story of face value was Charles Hall. For sure. Are we in the pod right? Oh, yeah. Okay. I didn't know.

We didn't break that wall. Yeah, well, Chris and I did Charles Hall together. When. Jesus, that sounds weird. But we did an interview with Charles Hall when Chris was telling

Luigi and I when I was out here last time and that's when Chris was doing impressions of some other prominent figure in the subject

too that Luigi and I were just loving. Yeah, who's this? Who's I'm personning? I'm pled so about the horrid.

Luigi was cackling all time, man. It's just like the way he's so soft smoke and he's like, oh, thank you.

Like, I've seen so many of his video. And, like, you just see these lights, these, you know, these, I don't know what they are. But then you hear his, like, soft voice in the background. Thank you. It's railing off at the end of the videos. Yeah, there's the kind of infamous video at the last contact of him doing that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, he always says, cut the football chatter. Yeah, cut the football chatter. Yeah. What do you make of that? What do you make of, like, all that stuff? Well, Jesse and I were talking about this last night. You know, he is, is diehard wants to talk to Tim Taylor.

Yeah. That seems to be the biggest crux. Yeah. Yeah. That's your way, wheel? It is, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

I think it'll happen? I put him on, I made a vision board, and he's on him. Cut to Jesse's shrine with the handles and like, satanic, what he could pentagram. Oh, that's so creepy. Because it seems to me. I really want to do it. Yeah. He's the intersection.

between trippy stuff and then real nuts and bolts air space but like really trippy stuff not even just like UFO work like a lady like time travel then you know oh yeah the bermuda t towns and brown stuff yeah the fact that his name came up at charles hall thing was interesting too like mary teresa's wife was just like yeah timothy and bletso said that she he was writing a book with towns and brown's daughter have you contacted who was writing a book tim taylor Oh, wow. And didn't Townsend Brown's daughter leave a, like, some type of Amazon review on his book? Yes. Yes. So there is a connection there is definitely a connection. Yeah. Have you reached out to the daughter? I had, well, she was on a phone call in my original Townsend Brown documentary. And so we'll occasionally talk on the phone and she's fascinating. That's so wild. Yeah, he's just such a, I think it's more of like he's this weird podcast. puzzle piece that you don't know where to put in the puzzle. And that's what's so intriguing about

this man is like is not necessarily how he's tied together with everything, but just like what, like what is his role here? He seems like this transient sort of goes wherever he wants entity, but at the same time, I get the feeling might be an experiencer from having, you know, so much interest in the topic and talking to Streber, what's his face, Charles, Hall and all these other experiences, Bledsoe. Mm-hmm. I don't know. I don't have to make one.

It's weird because Tim Taylor doesn't cross over into my lane of studying the programs at all. Like Tim Taylor's name never comes up. He's an aerospace corp. Right. Right. Yeah, NASA, but still in terms of like actual program efforts, his name has never really come up as a key player ever. Mm. Which is interesting because then he's gallivanting around with Bledsoe with Charles Hall.

Yeah, you would think that he would keep a lower profile if he was really in the, uh, in the deep part of the program. What do you think? I think he was part of some... Well, I think the program is probably a misnomer. And I think there are probably a lot of different... You know, you have this phenomenon, which is sort of multifaceted.

And then you have whatever's going on with Dan Sherman, like with the, you know, like humming a tone... Yeah, exactly. Project Preserved Destiny is definitely stepwise different than reverse engineering a craft, which is the stuff you're tracking. And so, those two things are different.

And then is there some sort of, you know, like looking glass style time travel thing? Like probably, you know, if you take Bobbazar face value, they were at least looking at little time perturbations, you know, and then, you know, is there some group that thinks it can time travel? Like there's a, there's a, he wrote a book called, um, launch fever. Yeah. It's his autobiography. And he writes about flying back and forth, uh, from between Florida and the Bahamas. Yeah. And he says time moved differently there.

And to me, it's like all this weird coded language. Like, it's island time. And it is really strange. Oh, that's an interesting way to see it. And then simultaneously, he's telling Chris Bledso's son that, like, he's part of this time travel group. And Townsend Brown was the president of it. And Townsend Brown always conceived of himself as a time traveler. Like, I literally asked Townsend Brown's daughter, like, what is, if your father is a time travel, what is he up to now?

And she goes, he's probably re-referralial. arranging the math on the most frontier science to make sure we don't blow ourselves up. And then you think about the UFO nukes thing is so crazy. I see some sort of time traveling superhero that's saving us all from imminent due. Yeah, right. This idea. Also, did you ever ask Malmgren about Tim? So Malmgren at the end of his life was going really deep on Townsend Brown.

Right. And was like, had all these like notes on him. And he apparently said he had a foreign intelligence source that gave him a, documentation of Townsend Brown collaborating with Tesla on some gravity stuff, which is crazy. And like, I couldn't get too much deeper than that. So, you know, I don't know.

And then on Tim Taylor, I don't think I ever asked him. I probably, knowing me, I probably did. And then he probably didn't say anything. That's why I don't remember. But yeah. Interesting. Are we all in solidarity that Malmgren was likely CIA? Yeah.

I don't know enough to put him in that category, but I'll trust both of your judgment. I think for sure. Yeah. Because he was in, he was talking about Primacoff and Dobrinnan and Pompadie. Like a global stage sort of guy. And then he was at Yale and at Oxford before that. And then he was living at, he had Paul Mellon's walking stick at his apartment.

And I'm holding it. Paul Mellon founded the CIA. And then he goes, my best friend, Tom Farmer or whatever. And then you look up Tom Farmer. He was the general counsel. the CIA. Like, come on. And of course,

he had IDA. It would be a big oversight not to yeah, have him in the Seattle. He had IDA as kind of his knock position to the Institute for Defense analyses. Which he literally said was a cover for his work on the National Security Council.

So this whole D.D. Johnson take down around him not working on the National Security Council. He already addressed before he died. With this other interview of Robin Laird. Wow. I'm still blown away that you got that interview. Yeah.

I am too, man. It felt like really like a guided. Yeah, it did. Yeah, yeah. What would you guys say are the most important interviews you guys have done? I think Malamgren is probably the most important interview any of us have done. Yeah, one of them at least is at the very top. Yeah, Malmgren or crush for me.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would push that question off to you. You've only done a handful on camera. Yeah. I definitely off-camera stuff. Yeah. And like we talked about it beforehand, specifically about Air Force stuff.

That's like, that's my Tim Taylor to get specific people on camera that have worked in those programs. Oh, about you, Chris? Most important. Yeah. I don't know. It's hard to say because that would,

that would mean that you would have to acknowledge that what they're saying is a sort of agreeable, truth. Right. Where I'm... Or not. It has a ripple effect. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's true. I would say, I think, you know, it's going to set people can make what they want of it, but I think Lou was a really important interview for the trajectory of my channel. You know, him coming early on to the channel, obviously got a lot of eyes on a channel. And so, you know, believe or don't believe anything Lou says, regardless of that. First of all, he, you know, he took his time to come here and be on the podcast. I'll always be, thankfully, he did that. But the offset of that was now that this, you know,

created some type of eventful thing where now people look at the podcast differently, like, oh, this is, you know, he's getting big guests. And so after that, I was able to, you know, get some really interesting people, even whistleblowers such as Jeremy Weeks come on. And so I think it was important in the trajectory of my channel. And it felt serendipitous the way it happened, too, I would say. But Jeremy Weeks is another one. Jeremy Weeks is one that... Yeah, it's a trippy story. Yeah, it's so interesting. Super trippy. But actually, maybe Peter Curry. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that one kind of, even though it did pretty well, I still think it went under the radar with, you know, what we're proposing and what was brought forward.

Like it was some physical evidence. It was physical evidence. It's wild. It's, you know, we're not, it's not hearsay. It's physical evidence. Yeah. It doesn't prove aliens, but it's anomalous physical evidence that we, that we have. And anomalous physical evidence that's biological.

It's not. Usually you hear like, oh, we did mass spec on, you know, this material and the isotope ratios, you know, whatever. You're talking about a hair. Yeah. I was pulled off the being. And what trips me out more is how it corroborates hair. his story and not the other way around. So it wasn't like he had this hair tested and they were like, oh, it's half Asian, half Basque, it's blonde, it's immune to AIDS without these CCR5 gene deletion.

And then he goes, oh, yeah, you know, I had a blonde and an Asian naked alien in my room. And that's not how it happens. It was that story first. And then you get this hair back that actually kind of corroborates what the heck this guy's saying. Like, that for me was the big, oh my God moment. It wasn't even like the anomalous nature of the hair. It was like that it corroborated his anomalous story. This is the skiff.

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I got in contact with him through, what's his name? Horst Drew. So Horace Drew was the geneticist who did the test, the genetic test, on the hair. He's also been in and around the UFO space quite a lot. He's worked with Bill Chalker, who wrote the book, Hair of the Alien. Bill Chalker, who's like a respected UFO researcher in Australia. And Horace was also the person who introduced me to Jeremy Weeks. He was the one who decoded Jeremy's initial binary.

sequence after, you know, I think it was Linda Moul and Howe. She didn't know what to do with them. It resembled binary. She didn't really know how to read it. It took horse like a few weeks. And then, yeah, and then CJ, you know, came out. Yeah. But, yeah.

Outside of Tim Taylor, who would like your guys' three dream guests currently Living be, that you guys would do anything to get on your pods? Okay, let's do one at a time. Okay. You first. Oh, man. No Tim Taylor. Yeah, no Tim Taylor.

Because that's already vision board. Thank you, sir. It's funny because it's either, like, you know, I either want to interview, you know, people like Spielberg or, like, you know, people who are, like, in the, like, you know, really clearly, like, no more than they let on, like, have, you know, clearly have some interesting sources. I think that would be really cool. And it's either that or, like, I always.

never know how to answer that because it used to be like more high signal people and now it's like you know my audience kind of hated on this but i love this interview i just did with this guy ralph this d oe guy he was i disagree with him about d oe oversight when it comes to ufo's yeah but the i like somebody who's experienced something kind of ontologically trippy but then they can also make sense of it in some greater theoretical framework so anybody like that and i felt like Malmgren was like that too where you had the like meta perspective of like being able to make sense of it you were like an actor in the world you weren't just identifying with the experience in this way that right you know that's that's the only thing and you're sort of like you know I don't know

like like like like selling everything off of that experience or turn philosopher experience or turn philosopher yeah but being able to make sense of it you've experienced something really trippy yeah yeah Spielberg's a good one Spielberg's a good great answer. You could get so much value out of even just asking him, hey, why did you include Lockheed and TRW in close encounters? Why did you have those crates? He probably would have some interesting answers. The whole project Serpo. Tell me about the lore behind the abyss creatures. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that was James Cameron, but. Oh, that's a bit. But still, I mean, Spielberg was a producer on Back to the Future. Yeah. Right. You know, and then obviously,

E.T. is another one that. is pretty on the nose in terms of, like, you know, them studying this being and whatnot. Yeah. I think in that same vein, if we were to stick around, you know, the entertainment industry, I think Chris Carter for me would be a big one. Yeah. That's a good one. Yeah.

His same questions go to him in that season finale that Tim Taylor mentions in American Cosmic, or what's your book? American Cosmic. American Cosmic. Where they're taken to the place? Yeah, and he's like, does this place look familiar? And they're like, well, this is actually a season finale of X-Files. And it's an actual range.

So he must have had, especially after that pilot episode. Yes. Yes. One episode, one, deep throat. That's the biggest. Dude, they go to an Air Force base and they see testing of like lights. Triangles, yep. Blipping around.

And then this triangle. Massive, you know, what looks like a TR3B or, you know, military. Very similar. Very similar. And after that, immediately, it was like Freak of the Week for like, I don't know how many seasons. Exactly. That craft, the artwork from that I talked about this all the time was commissioned to an art forensic artist named Bill McDonald. He also designed a lot of the craft for like Roswell depictions and so forth.

But Bill McDonald, that craft, he called it the XF131 Super Sentinel. And that was based off of a meeting with two Lockheed and two Northrop engineers at a Denny's in Antelow Valley in 1992. These engineers worked out of Hellendale and Tahone. What? So you can look up the original artwork. It's called the Tohachapi Triangle dated in 1992 from Bill McVey. This is allegedly a real craft. That's crazy.

And I've talked to Bill McDonald as well. He won't give up the engineer's names. But according to him, this is a real craft. Might have been in this diner right here. There you go. The other thing about the X-Files is they were real. You know, the Guy Bannister was this guy at the FBI. ironically, Lee Harvey Oswald was working out of his building at 554 Camp Street,

or 544 Camp Street in New Orleans, which is crazy. But he is the X-Files guy. He was the guy, like this guy Fred Crisman worked under him. He was another FBI guy who showed up at the Mori Island incident, which was literally like adjacent to the Kenneth Arnold's sighting, which was another UFO experience where somebody said his dog got killed by UFO slag coming down or whatever. Yeah. So it's this weird.

So, yeah, to your point, like, the X-Files was a thing, he's paying homage to this real thing. Yeah. And then, I mean, even you look at Nick Pope, who is, you know, kind of the scully or the molder of the UK at the UFO desk for the MOD, which is interesting, too. He had a 1-800 number, essentially. It was like this phone number that you would call in. And, you know, I don't know what to make of that. I didn't know what to make of that when he told me. And, like, that does sound like a position they would just give someone.

to like, all right, you just do this, but then accidentally falling into some real stuff. Well, it's like the weird desk at the CIA. Exactly. But they say, you know, they say Kit Green was on it. Then they say Ron Pandolfi took over. Yeah, it seems like a lot of your desk. Yeah, they seem. But like that one almost seemed performative to me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like with a public number. But then in, in that same vein, like you're getting calls from actual experiencers and he's actually going out and seeing these things. Yep. Right. Which I think is, you know, I would have loved to have that job. That's like a dream job.

Have you reached out to Chris Carter? I don't know how. I've had like people I know try to reach out to him, him, David DeKovny. Oh, nice. Yeah. What's her name? Jillian Anderson. I'd love to talk to any of them.

I'm sure David DeKovny would probably have some really interesting stories. Well, I think he's a UFO skeptic is what I hear. Oh, that's interesting. That would make for a good conversation then. I wonder if he's still a skeptic. I think it's tough now, right? Like, especially if you're always associated with that, and then you see all the stuff coming out in the news,

and everybody's coming up to you being like, oh, you're the guy, you're Fox Boulder. And then he probably has, he probably feels some pressure to have the correct view on it. And, like, now I do think the consensus is shifting. Five, six years ago, I don't think it was, you know, popular to say, you believe in this stuff. But now how many times do you think

you just ended a conversation with, oh, truth is out there? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Often. That's a good choice. Or like the dude who is smoking, the smoking man? Yeah, the episodes.

Yeah, yeah, that's the, like... You probably know some shit. Yeah, Molder's legacy contact. They've always been here. They've been here for a long time, guys. But they also say that, like, alien hybrids chain smoke or whatever. Like, that's like one of the Striegers thing. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, that's so wild. Hilarious. How about you? My number one would have just be boring. It would be, of course, Dave Grush, but in conversation with Dave Grush, not so much an interview, but more so like a fireside chat type situation, just like three, four hours of talking about legacy programs and legacy history. Have you not had that conversation with Dave Grush? That's not my story to tell. Okay.

No, but you said, like, that would be your number one thing you'd like to do. Yes. Oh, I see, I see. Yeah, to do like a video to sit down like three, four hours. Oh, I see, serious. I see, serious. I would pay to watch that. I would too.

That would be my number one dream. I mean, all the way from like Roswellyn prior to today. I feel like, I feel like it would be dangerous for Dave Grush to sit down with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Same reason Dave Grouch wouldn't probably sit down with Bob Lazar. It's like you guys are going to talk about some stuff that like literally you should be talking about. Yeah, of course, because like I've never had a clearance. I can cross lines that he can't without being thrown in jail.

Should have a button with him. Yeah. Like, he just gets to slap the button when you're getting too close to that line. Yeah. Because, like, I can cross lines that, you know, he will be imprisoned and made an example of if he crosses. So I have ability to cross those lines. So, yeah, you're right. It could be not a safe. So let's do it.

You know, that would be my dream, just of any guests living or dead. It would be amazing. I would love that. All right, let's go down the list. Who else? I think that if that conversation. have, it would be a sign that we've made a lot of progress because, you know, like, he could be super open about a lot of, like, the deeper stuff. Yeah. It would be, like, a very good indicator.

Or dates and program evolution, which I just think with how much information has flooded the zone would be really helpful, just to have, like, a clear and concise, this is how some of the legacy programs were founded, this is how they work, this is what they've evolved into. Well, you're doing the open source version of what he did at the UAPTF, I think, is, you know, he was known as, like, this really like, you know, his mind was a steel trap. And he was just this like big database of like all this stuff, you know. But you're both kind of like cut from the same clock. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Yeah, there's like when you put two phones together and just had AI talking to each other. Yeah. It would be a great conversation. I'd be really intrigued to. Dude, both of you nerding out on acronyms would be the best. You could probably host an hour long podcast where you say no. words. We could speak

in short of the entire code and acronyms. That would be a dream. Oh, dude, right here in this dining, let's set it up. I would love to. My number two, oh man,

ideal guests, so tough. I think maybe somebody at the, like, okay, if there is still a majestic 12, you know, like. Hill encoder. Yeah, well,

I would put somebody like a Bobby Ray Inman on it. and I'd love to interview somebody like at that level where they have somewhat of a top of the pyramid view. You know, you always hear these like analogies of like, you know, it's like a bunch of blind men touching an elephant or different parts of an elephant. It's really hard to like piece together what's actually going on. And you even had, you know, when Jake came on my show and in Ross's, it was like, I'm the fingertips, you know, and it's like we don't have all the context. And to me, the most interesting stuff isn't the, like, functional, like, what's going on in the form of crash retrieval program.

Like, I'm pretty sure that is going on. It's the metaphysical truth behind it. What is going on? What is reality? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're touching. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, who would, and you think Bobby Raymond would be the closest one to give you a broader sort of perspective?

I don't. And that's where I don't know. And it's interesting because I think with, like, the Malmgren thing, like, in retrospect, I think he was had much wider of a scope than I ever would have ever imagined. Thank you. Thank you. That's right. You're good.

So, yeah, so I think, like, you never know with these people. You don't know, you know, maybe like there's a, and then you would guess because he was, I think he was. Thank you. Well, he's an essay director and deputy director. Spook of the Spook. Yeah. Just insanely spooky. Now, if you were to interview, um, a lot of, you were to interview, um, a lot of, you know,

Thank you, sir. If you were to interview... That one has cheese. Oh, no, that one did. No, that's a sauce on it, I think. No, that's got a little bit of cheese. Yeah, that's why I was too. Oh, it does?

Oh, no. Oh, shit. It's all good. Oh, it's nibble. Do we have one without cheese? We do? Nice. Oh, nice.

Amazing. They'll start you out. Thank you. Finding it a little bit. Cut that out of a little bit. We're finding out, we're finding out the deepest. The deepest secrets of Jesse's. The deepest bowels of Jesse's...

Which one is which? This one here, yeah. Thank you. They're going to, I should just going to target me with some cheese now. So, Jesse, if you were to interview Bobby Ray Enman, of course, infamously, Jay Anderson has and gotten some eclectic sound bites out of him. Yeah, yeah. What would you do differently or ask differently to try and pry more answers out of him? Because I'm of the mind of you that...

You're a great question. You should do this. That is a great question. I think you'd have to hit on. on touch on real specifics. Right. As far as, you know, overlap that he's had in his career with specific people where it seems like, you know, they've. But even then, these guys are trained professionals.

And I think where, especially him. Especially him. And you, it's a, like, these people are running your questions through a filter of, like, can talk about, can't talk about. If I can't talk about it, I'm going to, you know, if I'm going to look like a sycophant in the future, I'm going to express open. on the thing I can't talk about. And it's a computation. And they're professionals at that shit. And so, like, you really have to read the body language.

But I do think if you want to, you know, kind of, you know, make them squirm a little bit, you got to, you know, bring up specifics, I think, around, like, you know, overlap. But even then, you're going off of things that are like you have two or three data points, you know? And it's ultimately, it's like an open source knowledge on this stuff is. a fucking minefield. Yeah. And all you're going to get is like a little smile

out of the corner of their mouth when you ask like some cute question and they go like in the back their mind they're like, you have no idea. You could have a whole conversation about his time as director of Nero. 100%. The National underwater reconnaissance. Well, he formed Nero, right?

No. Nero was formed in 1969 out of the need to coordinate Navy and CIA, D.S.N.T. reconnaissance activity. So up until 1974, Nero was a tug of war between the Navy and DS&T. And I can't remember the specific secretary of the Navy that kind of wagered some control back.

But yeah, around that time frame. Andrew's so. Well, I'd also want to ask about his time at SAIC, specifically, his interest in psychotronic weapons. Yeah. Wagon Hut as well. Wagon Hut. Something we don't hear about often either.

And maybe this is just, I don't hear about it much. But what about the Russians? Are they not doing any underwater reconnaissance? I believe they are. Are they not doing, like, water crash retrieval or like water, even like what Neuro was doing? Like, don't they have their own? we never hear anything from them in terms of the oceans. We always hear, you know, crash.

I think one of the questions is, did the Americans beat them to the punch? Because under neuro, like the Ivy Bells programs and basically various programs to put reconnaissance sensors and activities on the seabed across the entire globe, maybe we beat them there. So we have denied territory with a lot of the oceans. I think they have to have a program because they have nuclear subs.

And if you have nuclear subs, then you're going to attract this stuff no matter what. Yeah. And that's, you know, I think it's a true above land, it's true below, or underwater. And then they also have this mountain range called the Yamamoto Mountain Range, where they seem to study sort of extended electrodynamics. It's like their area 51. It is.

It's a nickel mine. It's near Kazakhstan. That's the dude who was on Ross Coulthard's show. He had, there's this lady, she was like this opera singer. Her father was a janitor. but what she thought was a janitor and then when he died he left her with like all of these files

and it's a book filled with diagrams of UFOs and like trippy science and they refer to the UFO Gina Oh Gene Sticko Yeah yeah That was fascinating I was like oh my gosh

And you know Ross told me to this day No one's been like Oh that's fake There's been no debunks No one's the Russians also There's this great book guy, Tom Augustine, that talks about this basically great race to, like, take over the tech of Kamler stop, like the secret Nazi tech. Oh, yeah. And if you look at the Avrocarp project in the

U.S., it was literally this, like, we tested flying saucers. That is not, like, debatable. And they just, they couldn't fly, do this thing called the Kiwanda effect. But we got all these, like, guys from Kamlerstab, the secret Nazi stuff, like Mita, and we stole all Victor Schaubberger's IP using army counterintel stuff, all of these guys that were working on reported flying saucers in Nazi Germany, we took over here through Avrocar counterintel, other means. And so they, I think, got a lot of this stuff too. They were called like the Habermal designs or the Habermal project. And I think there are exotic lineages of science in both places. And then on the, you know, are they interested in underwater stuff? Dennis Asperg, you know, the Baltic Sea and

anomaly says that, you know, they're... That the Russia had a presence out there? Well, yeah. I mean, the Baltic Sea is obviously very strategic importance, and it seems like they're interested in this object underwater. That makes sense. Okay. Number two. Oh, me?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Thank you. Everything else cake? Everything delicious. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't know if I'd go towards, you know,

know, anybody that, I don't know. Are we, this is living, like living, like we'd have an opportunity to? I think Dan Burrish. Nice. Yeah. Dan Burrish should be a big, and obviously, you know, Bob Lazars up there. I think he's everyone's number one. Yeah.

But Dan Burrish, I think, because he's limited himself to not doing any of these interviews ever, like, you know, since the early 2000s when he came out. I think he would probably have, I don't even know how that would go down. There's so many weird stories I hear around Dan Burrish and like that he's under house arrest somewhere in Canada and that like do not approach. Like he's being literally babysat by like ex-MJ12 like type cats that you can't even get close to. That's MJ12 guys are babysitting in? Like MJ12 deputies. Yeah.

Like you can't. Like a enforcement arm. Like once you're out of the. MJ12 scope. Mm-hmm. You're not allowed to just lead a normal life like, you're under like a mafia type strict surveillance.

And so he's got like, yeah, that type of activity. This story is one of the weirdest. So strange. Hmm. Because there are things that like corroborate other people's accounts incredibly. There are credible, you know, the fact that where was that university

that he went to to like do the public speaking of that on molecular biology. I can't remember. And that's on paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was, and it was Stony Brook. Yeah. And then, and which is, you know, a place where a lot of really bright minds went to

discuss things. Extremely bright minds. It's like a center of like really spooky physics, I think. That's right. Yeah. So, and then afterwards to have his, you know, schooling completely erased, not unlike Bob was R. where you can't track them,

but we do have this talk that he did at this really prestigious, you know, um, school. And so, you know, how do,

how do people reconcile those two facts? Like you have really, really interesting corroborative evidence of this guy being who he says he is. Even, and then, you know, take it a little further. He also got into the program kind of the same way that Bob did through,

um, Edward Teller. Yeah. Teller. Yeah. He recruited him. Yeah. And according to him.

And then there's also, I think, a photo of him with Mike McConnell, who's an essay director and a Navy Admiral. Yeah, Clint from Nightshift is pretty positive on that. But I don't think it's conclusive yet. Okay. But he's really high confidence on it. But I don't think it's been definitive. Because this researcher, Brian Jackson, says that McConnell viewed him like a son, the son he

never had. And then his son died in a weird way. And it's like they swapped soul. or something, and I don't know what to make of it. It's also interesting is that Bersch claimed that these beings were sort of us from the future, right? These two different timelines that have, like, separated, and that both of them ended up being these breakaway civilizations on, you know, Zeta or whatever, Orion, and that they're trying to help us steer clear of what is, like, imminent doom for this planet.

which would have been having Hillary Clinton elected. No way. Yeah. That's like, Marit. That's the one thing that would have like screwed our planet up was having Hillary elected. Now, if you look at Hillary and, you know, we talk to a lot of people, it seems like she was going to be the disclosure. That's true.

There were efforts to do that. Right. So it kind of corroborates what Dan was saying, whereas like, oh, that might have absolutely destroyed our timeline. I have to say that. That is hilarious. It's like Hillary Clinton is the apocalyptic. Right, right. And like, you have to know and surprise, I think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, yeah, naturally. Yeah, I mean, and what, I mean, there's probably an Epstein connection to be made there too. Uh-huh. You know, I'd be curious to know if Epstein was interested at all in Dan Burrish or Bob Lazar. We should search that. We should search it up.

Let's do right now. Okay. Jesse, could you pass me to catch up please? I got you, brother. You, sir. Because, I mean, Just be careful. Bob early 90s would have been like a celebrity.

Right. And this guy, you know, I've seen was obviously highly interested in trippy physics. So would you tell me yesterday about like the Los Alamos scientists and the physicists? So Epstein has like hours recorded with this guy, Steve Bannon, who's probably a spook himself. He was like Trump's guy, right? Trump's guy operative from the, from 2016 era. and they're talking and he goes, why'd you put Zoro Ranch where it is in New Mexico?

And he starts going on about retired Los Alamos physicists being in the proximity. And he want him wanting to have conversations with these guys. And you're like, what the fuck? Like, who's literally targeting our most sensitive programs? And by the way, Bill Richardson, I think was Secretary of Energy on, under Bill Clinton, I believe. He was a Clinton crony, for sure. And, like, he was governor of New Mexico.

And so I think there's some sort of connection there, too. Let's see. Let's see Bob Popper. Oh, there's a lot of Lazar. But then, like, there's this artist in Karen Lazar. There's all these. So I'm just going to look under Bob. Lizar.

No results under Bob Lazzar, but plenty of results under just Lizar. I'm sorry, Bob. I'm not trying to imply that you know if you're listening, but if they were speaking about him as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, he brought, he sends out feelers. Look up, look up Casimir, which is zero point energy. Because I've heard rumors that Epstein was obsessed with the Casimir.

So K-A-Z-I-M-I-R? C-A-S-I-M-R. Couldn't have been further. Casimir, loading. Oh, weird Come up? No, it's just my phone Just like bugged out

Yeah, classic When you look up Epstein's interest And do your point out Dude, I'm telling you, everything's frozen right now I can't do anything on my phone That happened to me in my McKinnon interview Which hopefully it'll be out by Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

And I filmed it Yeah, I was like I can't move My phone, it's completely frozen You got him to your studio? Yeah, yeah, that happened to me too No, no, I went out to UK. Wow.

One more time here. Dude, I really look forward to that. Well, it's out. So you can watch it. It's out now. Oh, yeah, it's not. I should watch it. In the future now.

It comes up a lot, but Anthony Kazimir is the name. And then Hernando, Quillar, Huxley, Casimir. Okay. And so these are all names. No, what about Tasimir Effect? E.F.M. C-T. I always spell fact, Jesse.

The T-H-A-A-A-A. None. What about anti-gravity? That's interesting. That would probably come out. Let's see that. Oh, gravity. He holds these gravity conferences or whatever, but one result.

Okay, where? Pulling it up now. So, from Robert Kuhn to Jeffrey Epstein. an exchange between So it starts with Jeffrey being like I deeply appreciate your strong intention

with the bold interviews of the best physicists to be quote unquote closer to the truth about our universe and its basic physical mysteries below is my new J-Fiz published article

oh this is Dr. Yuri Grubov sorry about that I was wondering. And then I guess Jeffrey was C-Ced on this. So this is going, yeah, they're talking about breakthroughs. He goes, I waited years to this opportunity. My model predicts the matter, anti-matter, anti-gravity, etc.

That was simply stupidly forbidden to publish in the most of distant physical journals. Why stupid? because this barrier existed without any experimental verification of the opposite case. Matter, anti-matter, attractive gravity. But now it is published and it links this publication, which might be interesting to look into it. That is interesting. I wonder why he says attractive gravity, because that's what gravity is. I think of repellent gravity as being anti-gravity or something.

Oh, yeah. Maybe A and B. Oh, yeah, I am. The A wave and the B wave. And so then Robert Coon writes and CCC's Jeffrey and says, as you know, Jeffrey and closer to the truth, so it sounds like an organization, are collaborating on a major series for PBS on breakthroughs

in mathematics and other areas. And we surely want to feature you in one or more mathematics episodes, hopefully. So, okay, he was also very strange. And we should look up close to the truth. Yeah, Gribov is a physicist slash artist in Germany. with an idiosyncratic multiverse theory. Idiosyncratic multiverse theory. Oh, one of my number one interviews,

trans surfing reality, Vadim Z-Land. I want to interview that guy so badly. You talk about that a lot. I love that book. And I think people say it might be a collection of people. There's one photo of him with these huge sunglasses on. Nobody knows who he is. Disappeared.

Really? Oh, yeah. Isn't there... No, I was thinking of stock. the wild pendulum. I'm thinking of the other guy. He talked about. He died in a plane crash. Yeah, he's trippy too. Yeah. He's super trippy. He's on an interview. I watched

once. I was like, this guy kind of like knows a lot. He knows a ton. Yeah. He was like the Israeli version of Pujarich, and they were like very close. And then, yeah, a lot of people said... Are you convinced Pujarish wasn't also with ties to Israel? I mean, he was working really closely with...

I think he was CIA and I think the CIA and Mossad have always been really close. Yeah, kind of buddy, buddy. Yeah. Yeah. that's an interesting cat too too are extremely interesting yeah all right

what about you gerb number two this will be another kind of boring one compared to what you guys said but it would be a man by the name of Edward C. Aldrich

also known as Pete Aldridge this guy was a You know this guy? No we talked a little bit about it last night but this guy was a secretary of the Air Force and undersecretary of the Air Force

his CV is equatable only to somebody like Bobby Ray and Men or Donald Kerr. I mean, this guy was CEO of the Aerospace Corporation. He was a senior, I think, board member at LTB Aerospace, which was eventually transitioned to E-Systems, which was a CIA shell company and then bought up by Raytheon. But as far as I understand it, Edward C. Aldrich was pretty instrumental during his time

as Undersecretary of the Air Force for helping programs kind of morph, legacy programs and take advantage of expanding SAP security controls to kind of hide itself within other programs and program cover offices. And there's actually a very real, tangible observation of this. I can't believe this is unclassified, but if you find a document called the history of SAFAA, which is the administrative assistant to the secretary of the Air Force, which is a pretty high-level position within the Air Force, specifically the headquarters of the Air Force, there were what was known as outside activities within the SAFAA. And these were created in Pete Aldridge's time, not necessarily created, but kind of morphed in

Pete Aldridge's time, which was a collection of Air Force activities that existed outside of the Air Force, that the Air Force had administrative and operational control over. Now, the interesting thing about this is these programs that were stuffed under SAFAA, the administrative assistant to the Secretary of the Air Force by Aldrich, bypassed the SAFAA's special. special access program oversight channels, which is the SAF A-A-Z, sorry. I mean, SAF-A-Z, my mistake, which is info slash special program oversight, slash security. Yeah, me too.

I was actually offended. And so that's like a big, that's like a big light bulb going off that under Aldrich, he kind of morphed these outside activities under cover offices that bypassed traditional special access program oversight channels. That's like a really big, like red alert that. Where did you get that information from? From that public history. And that was doing stuff from my Air Force video, which a lot of it talked about SAF AA because that's SAF AA position, two senior positions there, I mean by the name Russell E. Weiler and William E. McClure are likely, one of them is likely the gatekeeper that Chris Mellon was talking about back in 2024.

Do you remember when Chris Mellon posted? Yes. Do you remember when Chris Mellon took to Twitter, he posted an image in response to Sean Kirkpatrick leaking. Chris Mellon and Kirkpatrick signal DMs. It was Chris Mellon talking to a senior USG official and saying, hey, I think we tracked down the SES Senior Executive Service gatekeeper in the Air Force named Redacted. Thanks to some work by a good guy named Alex Katz and myself,

it's either former SAF AAH, sensitive activities, Russell Weiler or AAC William E. McCleur, most likely. So it's really interesting there. I would love to, of course he wouldn't speak about it, but to understand that role under. Foreign podcast, he'd be like, no comment. Yeah. No comment.

You got me. No comment. I've had a couple of that. Yeah. I think one of the big conversations that needs to happen next, at least in my lane, the legacy programs, is finding out how they morphed and evolved from what you can consider the Manhattan Project 2.0 to a blind man touching the elephant. Yeah.

And I think that's a very critical milestone. And why there are no physicists. This also should be. There's this video I just did with Eric Weinstein and Eric. Davis and Eric Weinstein is like, you're telling me these crafts break physics and there are no physicists on the program. And Eric Davis goes, yeah, I checked with the guy, you know, I was exploring this through NIDS and, you know, and Ossap and, you know, met with a lot of these people, met with five people on the crash retrieval program. And they all said it was just material

scientists and no physicists. And Weinstein, I think rightly so is like, I know like some of the smartest people in the country and they have no idea any of this stuff is real. Like, why? Why are you, if you're like struggling to get it to work, at least in its most vital form, the way it was working as the NIH had it working or whatever. What's the fear there? What's the reason? There is no good reason. It's actually like a brain dead policy. If you had to think of a reason, what would it be? They're afraid of some like shifting tech gets out of hand.

Everybody has a hold of it? It would be something like with the invention of the atom bomb not only did like instrumental, experimental physics become dangerous, theoretical physics itself became extremely dangerous. Yeah, and compartmentalized, you know, certain science itself. Exactly. But literally like the top layer of like, you know, think of theoretical physics is like the guardrails to reality.

Like they literally, and this is the kind of Weinstein narrative somewhat, is like string theory was pushed out as like a limited hangout where like you bump up against the right stuff and they farm you out. And maybe then they, you know, they work with you. They extract you. And he thinks Renaissance technologies, this hedge fund that this guy, Jim Simons, who contributed to fundamental physics with the Churn Simons equation and also was an NSA code breaker.

And then starts this hedge fund called the Medallion Fund, which does 30% year-over-year returns since 1989, literally made $100 billion. Oh, my God. It's $190,000, you say. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And has the collection of, like, it has all. All the most differential geometers in the country, they all go there and you have to sign an NDA for life once you go. And you're like, you're in or you're out sort of thing.

And then Stony Brook, he oversees. He was Stony Brook and he also oversees Brookhaven National Labs. So it was this kind of Iron Triangle. And then the guy, David Spurgel is the guy who runs the Simons Foundation. And he did the NASA UAP review panel. He fucking was in charge of it in 2022. This is a lot of crazy connections. I mean, the interesting thing is, that's crazy.

Holy. It seems like the programs used to have top minds and physicists, right? Yeah. Like a premium example of that we were talking about with Kingman, like Jesse said, but that Chris Melanch exchange is Dr. Ed Dole. Dr. Ed Dole was a primary figure named in the Kingman crash by primary witness Arthur Stansell Jr. And Dr. Ed Dole was a premier physicist that, you know, worked on the Manhattan Project. And according to Stancil was a pretty important figure to the early efforts of Legacy

programs, he would go on to Serb as like executive senior VP for TRW on their mission systems group component and so forth. So it seems like over time that that that that mid century had a lot had a lot of these guys and then something happened to where they were like we cannot have these guys. And so I wonder what that was, whether that's an event, you know, some type of leak or whether it was just the, you know, taking that information. and projecting it forward and being like, what happens if this gets into the wrong hands type deal? And we need to really clamp on this.

The only way we can do that is to have people who don't understand what they're looking at, look at this stuff. Yes. Because otherwise, it breaks reality for everyone. And the number one string theorist over the last 50 years is a guy named Ed Witten. He's known the Michael Jordan of string theory.

Like, he's so much more advanced and smarter than anyone else. His father was working on anti-gravity at Martin Corporation's RAS division, which was literally their anti-gravity division group. And he's giving an interview for the, I think, American Institute of Physics. And he's on video saying, Right Herefield commissioned me to do gravity. And now if you email him, he's like 103 or something. He goes, I can't talk about that.

I'm so sorry. It is wild. It's funny mention Michael Jordan because I am to string theory, what Michael Jordan is to string theory. Me as well. Okay, Jesse, number three, who's your third? Before we get to number three, I got a question for both. Sure. Have you ever had to cut something out of a podcast?

Yeah. Based on, like, classified stuff. They said you can't put that in there. Because it's classified? I went too far. I shouldn't have said that. No, no, I've cut stuff out out of my, what I perceive as my own safety,

lines across that I don't really want to attract the ire of certain individuals. Of your own self. Yeah. So not exactly. Because I don't really do interviews. No, you don't do that. But I've cut stuff out like of what I say at the end. So while editing, you're listening to yourself and you go, wait a second.

Yeah, like maybe I should do this. Really? I mean, think about the shit that he knows where it's like, you know, where it's like, you know, everything's like a shot across the bow. But he's also so bold in these videos that I can't imagine. what he's holding back. Yeah. A good example is, in the Air Force project, I put forward the name Terry Phillips as the gatekeeper.

People shouldn't know in the same sentence as Glenn Gaffney. Yeah, right. Yeah. There's other names there that right now I just, I am a little too worried to talk about. Yeah. Right. Because they're bad people. Terry Phillips is POS, a real bastard.

But, uh, maybe a-huh. What is that acronym? Yeah, I've never tested on the channel. It might be the only acronym I know. But just stuff that I kind of worry if I put out there, I'll either attract the ire of people I don't want to attract and kind of take their fire, or I'm just kind of worried for myself.

I would not assume that they haven't heard about you. That's true. They have. How about you? There is one instance I can think of where somebody was like, this would endanger lives if you put this out. And it's like, and it was like a, I think it was like a reasonable. Who was the guess? Can you say to the guess list?

I don't know. I feel. Is it how? No, I feel like if I, no, it wasn't hell. But I feel like if I said it would be some names of what's that? People would blow him up. Yeah. So it's a him? Yeah, I've like, not that many female.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, but. And then again. And then again. The lives of whom of the people involved in what he was talking about? You don't go anywhere near it? Yeah, because I, you know, I don't.

How many syllables in their name? All right. I don't know. And then a couple of other times, but you never know if it's classified, you know, like if it's like because it's classified or. Right. But I've had to cut out something. Yeah. John Ramirez.

Interesting. Yeah. It was the only time I've ever had to cut out something, you know. I haven't done. that many government officials. I haven't had that many government officials that I know of. But, you know, Lou is one I got to say that, like, when he went in, he's like, you ask me anything.

I don't want any of the questions beforehand. And I'll respond how I can respond. Although he was very evasive in a lot of the questioning. He never asked me to cut anything out. And he has a playbook of responses. That's right. Yeah. And you can tell when you listen to it.

A lot of people who roll their eyes halfway through. They're like, we're not getting anything out of this guy. He's air type. But John Ramirez did. There was things that we touched on. And this was around the time Matt Brown had come out with the Immaculate Consolation document. So you can extrapolate from that what you will. I won't get into it.

But there was some discussions there that he had to double check and got back to me with a negative. Yeah, I have to. He's like, I'm not sure about this. Let me just check it. When he got back, he's like, no, 100 percent, you got to cut that out. He's like, externally, cannot talk about this. Which is interesting because, of course, his part was cut out of the age of disclosure, right? And I know he talked about the same things on age of disclosure.

Ah, that's probably why. Oh, interesting. Also, because he does get into... I mean, it's intelligent. It's related to intelligence gap, which is what he did his whole life. It's an asymmetric capability. Exactly, and it's very sensitive. Yes.

And something being used currently. Right. So it's probably... Literally national security. Reasonable. Yeah. Nothing to do with, like, spooky UFO stuff. I mean, potentially a little bit adjacently.

But yeah. Yeah. Okay, number three. Number three. I got to thank you guys when you guys go first for it. I'll think all time. I would want to interview the Pope. That's a good one.

The current one? Yeah. I actually have a crazy story. Leo, too. He's an American. He's an American. Give you a fun podcast. And there's just all this stuff around the Vatican knowing stuff about UFOs.

Having a slice of Chicago. dish with him. Oh, wow. Yeah. Sick. Yeah, it would be sick. That's a great. And and like, I just think there's so much, the Magenta crash, like, was under, you know, I think, was it

Pope Pius? Pope Pius, the 12th. The 12th. Like, it was like, you know, under his jurisdiction. And so, and then he helped back channel the information back to FDR, yeah. After the war. Yeah. Because he would have been, you know, part of the Axis. During the crash.

Totally. And then you have- the crash, yeah. Yeah, done, thank you. And then you have Pesolka talking about access to the Vatican archives

and, you know, her going with Tim Taylor and hinting that they know much more than meets the eye. You're all good. Yeah. No, and the whole, you know, you look at the institution

and you look at, obviously, like we'd mentioned, like you'd mentioned, like with Diana, like a lot of the research and the words they use and stuff that was potentially changed in the church. translation to sort of mask a lot of this stuff, like the word cloud apparently,

um, was actually like, uh, object or something and like, yeah, yeah, and so they replaced it with cloud and Roman, flaming, blazing Roman shields or whatever. And then, and they have in, um, the, I think it's like the rough land translation is like, uh, St. Anne's Cathedral. There's once a year with, within the grounds of the Vatican, there is a UFO research group that meets up and discusses this sort of stuff. So I went. I'm coming out with a Vatican and UFO's documentary about the Magenta Crash, and I interviewed Marconi's grandson who says that Marconi was part of RS 33.

This is the most embarrassing part of this. So I'm in the Vatican as part of this, like, you know, event. It's like some like interdisciplinary faith thing or whatever that I was invited to. How did you get access to this? So this dude that reached out around my Peru Mummy's Doc was connected with Kyrsson Ilyumzinov. Yeah, the president. The president. And...

Micronesia or whatever. I forget the... Calmedia. Yeah, please get it, right. So my apologies. Their population of 300,000 and they're beautiful people. It's not nothing. No, definitely not.

All right. And he got this, like, elaborate, beautiful... So he was also president of the World Chess Federation, Fide. Yeah, yeah. It was like being president of FIFA. You meet everyone. And he's the nicest, coolest guy. I bonded with him.

Like, I was like, this guy's so cool. And, you know, maybe, you know, they have different standards of, you know, you might not have done everything above board as dictator of his country. I'm not going to, like, you know, comment on that. I got to say, by the way. That was one of the most groundbreaking episodes that I've ever seen just like on another note. And I'll let you finish. But that was insane.

dude. Seeing you up there on like some type of political throne next to like this president. You know, it's dude, it's so, so, so surreal to see it. And he said so many insane things in that interview. So many insane. He said he spent a ton of time with Kissinger. And Kissinger seemed to know a lot about the UFO stuff. Oh, yeah. And he said that there was a president of another country who he was friends with who got abducted on a fishing trip but was afraid to speak about it. And I'm like, I know this guy's not, you know, maybe, maybe there's like a little bit of embellishment going on. So there's, he's not lying. Yeah. He's not lying.

There's a core event there. And more than his own experience is these little interactions with other world leaders and stuff that really goes like, oh, this is just a boys club. Yes. Of, like, of information. Like, these guys love sort of sharing these little winks at each other. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Their bodies.

Yeah. Like this type of deal. like it really cements that for me when I watched that interview. I was like, oh, yeah, once you're in, you're in. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Anyways.

Yeah. So, okay, so this guy who hooked me up with that interview, he was, so, yeah, so he had this invite to this Vatican event or whatever, and it was like faiths of all, you know, it was like every religion or whatever, representatives would go or whatever. And Kier-san was there and he had this big chess piece that he wanted to give to the Pope. And the Pope ended up, like, kind of scurrying off. And then... Not a fan of chess.

What's that? Not a fan of chess, or... Yeah, not a fan of chess, apparently. I didn't care. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he didn't, like, engage with anybody. And, but then there are some people, like, left over from the event, like, who were in it, you know, some official-looking cardinals or whatever who are walking kind of the grounds and, like,

shaking hands or whatever. And so, um, dude that invited me and Kyrson are, like, huddled up there. And I see them talking to one of them. And so I go up. and shake the guy's hand briefly, like, you know, meet him for a second, and he gives him the chest piece because he's a representative of the Pope, and then they kind of walk off. And then somebody comes to me after, he goes, you know who that was? He shook, you know, his hand you shook. I go, no.

He goes, that was the Cardinal Secretary of State, which is the number two to the Pope and has more political power than the Pope. The Pope is like the figurehead. And this is like the dick show. Complete funble. I could have asked me about UFO. But I don't know what the guy's face looks like. Yeah, you don't have a set of trading cards about all the cards. No, I don't.

And so I'm like, oh, shit. And then I'm like, in the back of my head, I'm like, well, at least he probably doesn't know anything about UFOs. And then I find out, like, a week or tea later that, like, in certain instances, he's expressed interest in UFOs. Oh. But you know what? You know something. What's that? He knows something.

He knows something. Something of interest. But anyways, I still, I want to interview one of you. One of the red guys or the white guy. That's really good. I can't wait for that dock. Yeah, it's going to be fun. Super exciting.

It's going to be cool. Oh, man. Yeah, especially because since you made the reverse of that dock with the sort of like Satan worshipping rocket builders. You have them like the, uh, dichotomy here. It's really interesting. I would also have a religious figure, but mine would be the, I heard about, you know, this Carthusian monk that apparently lives in like Vermont. Where did we hear that? John Stewart. Okay, yeah, okay, yeah, I remember that when he was on your pot.

Yeah, a lot of people are going to roll their eyes at the sound of this guy's name, John Stewart. I love the guy. I think he's fun. He's hilarious and he's got gumption and he just doesn't give a shit, you know. even considers himself a useful idiot, which I think is a refreshing thing. It is refreshing. No, it's better than the people who don't know. It's like, I disagree with John on a lot, but I love to get dinner with him. He just seems like somebody who you would enjoy spending time around in a personal setting.

Definitely. And he's a showman, obviously, he's an ex-wrestler, politician, car salesman. He was up late last night, because he has this video he came out with saying, Whitley Strever is a CIA. He goes, this is going to break the internet news of 26 and you find out that he's quoting William Cooper for the pale horse. Yeah, yeah.

I texted, I texted Whitley. I was like, is this legit, dude? And he's like, he goes, that's absolutely nuts. And Whitley's saying it's absolutely nuts. You mean it's absolutely. How many times did John refer to himself in a third person? I don't know. I love.

He's wearing an orange jumps. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But your episode with him was amazing, and I think it showed how deep, at least in that isolated context, the alien interview? Yeah. That guy knows his shit. He's done a lot of legwork on that specific video and probably uncovered, you know,

potentially some of the most, I mean, he came up with a list of names that were in that room. You know, in those names, he then independently sought to verify one by one and was met every single time with either, I'm not talking about this, don't call here again, or, you know, that was my husband. He would never talk about work. So it was really interesting. Like you looked at it and you go, oh, there's definitely something here. But then he mentions these. So apparently how this goes down is the CIA or the DIA at the time,

hires remote viewers to remote view, you know, targets or whatever. Now, they're getting pulled in the direction of this monastery in northeastern United States and this tall, this sort of big white building is what they're saying. something you're seeing is the people that are there are going to help you. Those are the people you need, right? So they were sought out by, first of all, remote viewers. Now, I reached out to Joe McMonagall at this because that would have been roughly around his time. He said it rings a bell.

He would get back to me. And he got back to me and he was like, no, we were actually tasked for a monastery in that area, but it had something to do with like hauntings, which is also really trippy. Whoa. And I think it had to do with, it was like, it was a private thing. It wasn't like a government thing. So it was like post Stargate. But regardless, he said these two, they took six of them and they had them work as counter intel.

It sort of remote viewers and trained them. And then two of them were really talented. And those two were flown out to S4 apparently meant to communicate with this being. And so John said he has a guy on the inside. He won't tell me his name. And I've like credit to him because I've in person to, like, just give me the name. Like give me something, dude. I got to go.

I got to go see this guy. I find out the name of the monk, but not the name of the person who interviewed the monk. So that part still is a little nebulous. But apparently this monk is like 97 years old. He's in good health, still alive. And spill the beans. and said, yeah. To you know he spoke the beans?

No, to the guy that John was getting his information from. Have you reached out to this monk? No, and I know probably a lot of people have. I heard through John that Rick Doty has apparently sent pizzas there and like letters and facts. No way. Yeah, to like try and creepy. Yeah. And so that tells me is that, oh, Rick Doty.

also doesn't know about this and that he has a genuine interest or, you know, some other nefarious connection. Yeah, you never know what's dope. You never know. But I just thought dropping that name was kind of interesting. And, but he has some other person on the inside that ended up writing a letter now. I've penned a letter. I have a letter ready to go. I put the video out and I thought, I'm going to wait a bit because they're probably going to get inundated with emails. And so I'm going to wait a bit, but you can't contact them in any way that disrupts their vow of silence. And you, I mean, you can't infer any type of cover-up, conspiracy, anything outside of, like, perhaps historic purposes or faith purposes.

Those are like, that's the bare minimum. But as soon as you talk about anything else, you're going to get shut down, shout-out for good. So how did you approach it as a historical basis? Yeah, pretty much that I'm a researcher and that there were. rumors circulating that during the Cold War era, that some people within certain agencies would have hired people with monistic ties to, you know, sort of aid in some of their operations. And now we're hearing more fringe sort of conversations around this matter. And I wanted to give you a chance to set the record straight about any involvement.

that you might have had during that time, you know, to correct the history books was like, you know, the way in. But I haven't sent yet, and I'm a little reluctant because I know that like if they don't answer it, they're just going to leave it on red. Yeah. I think you got to do it though because he's in 97. Yeah. Yeah. But interesting, that guy would like to talk to him. Like to talk to that monk.

But how would you talk to him though if he's in a vow of silence? Would you have to exchange? So apparently, allegedly, according to John, he broke his vow of silence to answer the question. And that guy has been in contact with this monk's family for a long time. Got to find that guy. Yeah. He would have been, you know, the communicator, which is so crazy to think about. It's wild.

Yeah. Yeah. And he, you know, he's saying some trippy stuff, like, you know, how they were, you know, literally he was like listening to in his mind and like talking to the general, at the surer colonel, whoever it was in the room at the same. time, like real-time translating. That's so crazy. It's wild.

But, you know, science fiction, reality, I don't know, but I would, regardless, if this person is real, which I think he is, and if he's lying, I would love to hear a lie from a 95-year-old monk. I would love nothing more. Well, it makes intuitive sense. Like, you have the telepathy tapes and you have, like, the idea of, like, one sense goes. Like, all those kids are, they say autistic, but usually they're autistic. They're mostly nonverbal.

That's right. And so this guy's taking a vow of silence. And so there's definitely something around like an accentuation of senses when something else goes and spending that much time just hermetically sealed and meditating. Yeah, correct. They're in constant contemplation about God. You're probably your paradigm is going to look much more like one of these beings likely. Correct. Or if not, it's going to be just deviated from a normal human.

human beings and you're going to throw a person like that at any entity to try to translate for sure. Yeah. I guess that's the catch-22 about taking that vow of silence is that you do accrue all of this amazing knowledge through your contemplative practices and your deep pondering of spirituality and the source and all of this. But at the same time, you have no outlet. You can't articulate it. Right. Well, it's like this with like Jesus, the Buddha and it's always like ears to hear like your communication is only as good as like the measurement instrument on the other side and how much it resonates and so like there's going to be this like translation error like if you get to a certain level of wisdom like it's inherently not

going to like trickle down in this like one-to-one way yeah trippy that would be i would love love if you were able to get in contact with that monk yeah who knows he's definitely not watching this podcast so we can say whatever we want. Fuck that guy. I mean, even if he's not talking about like the alien interview, you probably strike me down right now. I think you'd probably have a better chance communicating with that person in an astral form.

Yeah. You know, and I think you suggested that. I did. I told you. A shit. It was so funny because when I broke this story when I heard it first from John to Amar, our buddy Amar, he was in a monastery, in the oldest monastery in the world,

like St. Catherine's monastery or something, during that time. And I was like, whoa, I told him about this monastery. He's never been in a monastery. And it was the last day of the year. It was January 31st. And I was the last person he would talk to before the new year. And it was just like this weird, trippy,

synchronicity. What are we at number three? I think so, yeah. You guys have the poem. Another boring name. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to say another boring thing. Major, maybe.

Major Colonel. Because you guys have the Pope, you guys have monks, and then you got me who's going to say Donald Kerr. So it's like a huge step down and interesting. Who's Donald Kerr? Donald Kerr was, he was, you know, either director of the NRO altogether, some pretty senior elements of the NRO. He was within DS&T on MITR, EG and G Special Projects, VP or director. Okay. The director of Los Alamos.

Spook, spook, spook. This guy might be NHI. The most juicy, robust CV I've ever seen in my life. But the problem is with some of this guy is just like the monk. Donald Kerr is ancient. So a lot of these guys, so is Bobby Ray Inman. It's kind of a race against time. Hopefully their testimony has been taken in and saved for historical purposes.

But the guy's super old. And from what I understand, he's been one of the most ingrained legacy people. As you can just tell from his background. I would watch eight seasons of GERB doing deathbed confession. I've tried with multiple people and they say that they will tell me on their deathbed, but not pre-record to release it on their death. Exactly. Exactly. They all think they're going to live longer.

Everybody who dies thinks, oh, when I get out of this, I'm buying an RV. Like, I'm traveling the world. Yeah. This is it. There's one very specific person that has, in my opinion, one of the most worthy testimonies that must be heard. And he says, you know what? When I'm dying, I'll summon you. my deathbed and I'll tell you, but the guys are really bad health. And so I don't want him to be

gone as my friend. And you don't want to be like, you're dying. Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't want to go because, A, he's my friend and B, like, there's no guarantee we could have that conversation with his poor health. What's, what's making him so reticent in sharing that now that he's in decent health? Does he not trust you or does he not trust that the information will fall into the wrong hands? Reprisals. We, during the course of our communications, there have been several instances where, you know, some keys will be dangled above him saying, hey, you better stop or, like, we're taking away your pension. Because this guy retired at a very high level within a certain element of the armed forces.

And he has family members that rely on him to live because of disability. So he's ultra worried because he's disabled himself. That pension gets taken away. He can't live. Those members of his family can't live either. So that's this big pain point that they love to target. This guy seen bodies? Yes.

That's the guy we talked about last time, yeah. Yeah. Seeing body, seen tech, seen craft. Yeah. Seeing our craft, too. Is this the same guy that Greer mentions? Did Greer remit this guy? You know what?

I have to say about Greer and some of his testimony that he's collected. Some people will be very shrewd and approach Greer from a doctor-patient privilege because, of course, Greer is a licensed doctor. And they'll enter into an agreement with Greer. What is he? I didn't know that. Yeah. They'll enter into an agreement with Greer.

where Greer is in a position of like a health caretaker. Yeah. And so all of their communications with Greer will be protected via HIPAA. And so when Greer releases those, he's in direct violation of those laws. So Greer has collected and distributed testimony illegally on several occasions of people who approach him under the guidelines of HIPAA. And he takes it upon himself to release that and talk about that. And that is both highly unethical and just wrong. And so you didn't answer my question?

I have no further comment to say there. It sounds good. I did type of a misdirection. A lot of people have come across Greer's desk. Yeah, sure. Yeah, he was like the dad. Yeah, and of late, because there was a time at which, you know, like we've talked about before, I think he did the right thing by platforming guys like McCandlish on, you know, the National Press Club in 2001.

And the other one. But, yeah, 2023 with Mike Herrera. but also done the wrong thing of taking people's testimonies and expanding on them to suit his needs. Wow. And probably, I don't know. That's a pretty big claim too. And that's like, you know, is that something he's nervous about? Like what is, what do you think?

Like, what's the, like the hip, the hip, violation? Yeah. Like, why would, why? Oh, he's not because he's continued to do it. Well, I, I think if you were trying to protect the program, I think you would use him now as a fly trap. He's been legally mandated to take down their. documents because he's been threatened with legal action because of the HIPAA violation, and he still talks about him. Yeah.

And there's weird stuff that you've pointed out, Gil missing, and, like, really key interviews. Like, he did a great thing with Jonathan Wiggin. And Stephen Greer just cut all these parts of the interview. And he's also, I think, Lord Hill Norton, Admiral Hill Norton in the U.K., who's had the, you know, the naval fleet there. Well, thank you. Thanks so much. I'm good with coffee soon. I'm good with coffee. Yeah, you're in?

I'm good for now, too. Thank you. Um, I think, you know, James Fox got that interview. And then Stephen Greer was just like, that's my interview. And he, like, cut James Fox's parts of the interview. Yeah, he did that with a weekend as well. And I talked to James Fox about it. I said, hey, do you remember shooting this?

And he said, yeah, of course. I was like, do you know Greer cut out all of your parts? They said, no. So crazy. Wow. Because you can hear in the interview, not like the interview here posted to YouTube. but in the archives of the DPI archive, you can hear sort of the raw interview. And at certain parts, James Foxx will start to ask a question.

That'll just cut. He's acting like it's him. Yeah. It's like, come on, dude. It's okay. He can squat 700 pounds or whatever. Leg press. Leg press.

Big difference there, actually. How much can you leg press? I don't know. I don't leg press much because it doesn't do anything. It does it. How's Lake Press can help you in athletic movements, functional movements. We're a big guy. You don't do any weight training? I do a lot of weight training, but more so like, more so compound movements instead of like a lake press. Do you train you by that?

Yes. Like how often? Jiu-Jitsu four times a week. No way. Two times a week. Wow. Whoa. So you're training six times a week?

Where do you have time? That's crazy. That's impressive. Well, you got to stay sane sometimes on this subject. I agree with someone. Totally. I do exercise. I do like three days a week. I just love it. It helps calm the mind. There's something about matching up with like a worthy opponent in grappling and getting to a position where you could choke the life out of them

if you're not in a controlled sport environment. It's just like there's nothing more satisfying than matching up against somebody worthy of scaling grappling and out besting. I don't know, solving a puzzle is pretty satisfying at some time. It's a very primal thing. Playing bridge. Chas, you know, a lot of people say it's really close to everything. Yeah, you look my butt in chess last time we played.

Shame. What do you guys do to stay sane and grounded in your spare time with this subject? I mean, why? I used to surf, and then I moved to Texas, and I don't surf as much there. Are you used to surf in California? I know you went to, like, Portugal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd surf and stuff, but that's sick. Yeah, yeah, I'd surf all the time.

You were good surfing? I'm, like, okay. It was hard, but it's definitely really hard, but, yeah. I'm like decent. No, that's cool. Yeah. You ever encountered sharks? No.

As a Canadian, that's like our number one fear. Oh my God. That's right. It's like sharks because we don't have them. So we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like an abstract, not real fear. Yeah. Like, even where there are a ton of great whites in Northern California,

I think the last like death due to a great white shark was like 2013 or something crazy like that. Oh. And still not zero. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know, surfing, running now, more meditating. But I could use some more compartmentalization for sure. Yeah. Like, it's definitely spent a lot of time on UFOs and crazy shit.

Yeah, because you've got to, like, you got to do so many things in between these episodes that people might not realize or might think is, a lot of people think a lot of the brunt of the work is, like, having those conversations. holding court coming up with questions. It's more than that. It's like it's the amount of brain power it takes to devote to the subject on the off time. Like you've got to live a normal life, but then also I got a guest, I got three guests coming and they each got four books. I got to read at least one of the books, you know, and so you're catching up on reading during that time. And then on top of that, you're getting inundated with all sorts of other, you know, inquiries and future, you know, um, opportunities and you're constantly like in this world. And the second you let up, you feel like it starts, you know, like you want to maximize.

You want to strike while the iron's hot type deal. Yeah. And that's, that's tough. That's tough as, uh, uh, it's a tough mental game to play. So maybe offsetting that with like physical activity is probably the healthiest. Yep. Well, that's why I don't know about you guys, but I'm so thankful I don't really spend time doing like news of the day stuff or kind of capturing news.

I see my or this is so sad. I don't be a bundle of nerves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like... Also, you're going to swing at bad pitches if you don't do that. But you're definitely going to swing at bad pitches if you're trying to do, like, the hot new thing. We already swing at bad pitches after doing research. That's what I'm saying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very true. Yeah, guys, like vetted or even, like, the night shift guys, like, these guys covering or psychoactivo, So people covering the today news. Like, to me, when I started this channel, I did it a little bit, maybe for two episodes. Yeah, yeah. I was like, all right, what's going on? Let's do a little roundup.

And then I went, oh, and another thing happened. And another thing happened. I'm taking notes. And I'm now, I have to research because the second you don't, you look like a buffoon. And so I'm just like researching constantly because news is coming out daily about that stuff. And I'm like, there's no way I'll ever be able to keep up with this. I am the most easily siopable person now because I have no time to research anything. And I'm constantly...

And you're bought in a priority to the whole topic, obviously. And I'm responding to every single story. And I'm giving my take. And my take becomes shifted and molded according to, you know, the information. Yeah, exactly, that I'm consuming. And stress, it, like, heightened my anxiety. Right. To think about, did I have the right take on that?

Matt, did I say the right thing? Oh, I made a mistake. I should redact that. Like, these stresses, you're like, my hat's off to those guys doing it. Yeah. I'm glad people are out there covering that because there is a need for that type of content, I think. A lot of people enjoy it. But it's not for me. It's something that, yeah, definitely, I don't have the heart. I don't know how you do it. I feel like sometimes it reduced, in its best form, it's like you're covering and amplifying stuff that, like, needs to be amplified, especially because.

Because, like, all this stuff gets drowned out often by, like, the World War III, we might be, like, on the verge of, you know, other kind of prosaic political events. I think in its worst form, it's, like, sports center for, or TMZ for UFOs. Yeah. And it's like, you manage, that's right. And you managed to take this, like, topic that touches on, like, ontological truths, sacred truths, like, what is reality, like, you know, itself. Like the most important questions, and you've managed to turn it into like this he said, she said, like food fight thing. And it's like, come on. That's a good way of putting it, Jesse.

Like, at best, it is something that, like, everybody kind of wants to be updated on. And at worst, it's literally like high school drama. Yeah. So, yeah, man, I don't know how anybody doing that doesn't suffer from some type of, you know, offset depression and anxiety. Like, because that would affect me. I've been, you know, I've had my bets of depression. I know. I was like, when I got started, I was like, no, to no.

Yeah, I got to stay away from this. And then when you view the topic and think about it, your knowledge is as wide as an ocean, but as deep as a puddle, right? Because you don't have the time or ability to really specialize in various parts of this subject. And as we all know, it gets so weird, so quick. And all of us focus and specialize in different aspects of this topic. And, you know, we lack in knowledge of each other's topic. Right. There's just so much to learn about various aspects of this subject.

You know, experiencers, science and physics, legacy program stuff. It'd be so impossible to cover all of it at once. That's a good point, man. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you guys are a part of it. Yeah, me too. I'm very grateful. I'd feel crazy if you guys were around.

I know. Yeah. We got an island. Yeah, whoa, whoa. Wait, hey, hold on. Don't leave me. What island. Jesse.

Jesus Christ. All right. Well, boys, this is delicious, and this is fun. Yeah, this is a wonderful time. So fun. Thanks for hanging out with me at the Flying Saucer. Appreciate it. Oh, yeah.

Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us, Chris. It's great apple pie and burger. Yeah, it's delicious. All right, let's get the hell out of here. Let's do it.