AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - New UFO Witnesses Break Silence to Investigator - UAP Gerb - DEBRIEFED ep. 49

Episode Date: August 8, 2025

Out of Body Merch: https://www.area52.shopPatreon Exclusive Content: https://www.patreon.com/Area52investigationsUAP Gerb joins us in the SCIF to talk about the new witnesses he has interviewed. He shares what they saw, why their stories matter, and how these testimonies could change the way we understand the phenomenon.

Have you ever come across someone or multiple persons off camera that have completely shifted the way that you see this phenomenon? Yeah, I have a buddy who was in Army Public Affairs. This was about 2015 time. He was up at Groom Lake, Area 51. On the flight line, he sees a huge black triangle and it just takes off at incredible speeds vertically. Doesn't disturb any of the dust around it. There's one guy I've talked to. I think he's still employed in military service.

But a C-5 galaxy from a U.S. airlift wing pulled in, front opens, and what else is pulled out? But a Tic-Tac described as like perlessent, perfect, beautiful. The TARP started to kind of come loose. And some airmen, servicemen went to go reattach the tarp. And a couple of them became violently ill. Like on a spot? Mm-hmm. Whoa.

She had hot water, by the way. About a year I've known this person. Okay. Very close person. Like somebody I trust on. Yeah. Like a very personal level, too. Great.

And, yeah, they've confirmed to you that, indeed, there are retrieval of bodies, multiple retrievals of bodies. Yeah. Do you believe that there is some type of agency within some type of government that is using time travel in some way? The only framework I have is a witness that you and I talked about, who he talked about using the sphere as like a, described like a remote viewing tool.

But the tool allowed the user to basically view parallel sort of existences to us. Two people independent from Bob who have told me they have been to S4. They didn't see Kraft there, but they confirmed like that the hangers built into the mountain. They confirmed the hangers. They said they were hangers disguised as mountainside. Folks, the out-of-body long-sleeve collection is back with three, brand new colors, astral pink, liminal gray, and moss green. Only available for a limited time, and once they are gone, they are gone.

Check them out at area 52.com. To my face, the lady's senior, too. I don't know how to describe it, but it made it. It stood there. Look, what wasn't a... Ladies and gentlemen today, it is an honor for me to present to you in the skiff, in the flesh, UAP, GERB. Do you use your name at all anywhere? I try not to so much, but of course, Jesse has said my name's Sam, so please feel free to call me Sam.

Orrb, whatever you want to say. All right. Sam or Gerb, if you don't know about Sam's channel, it is UAP Gerb on YouTube. Probably the most extensive granular deep dives you will ever watch in your entire life. And I am not, that is not a hyperbole. This guy's content is absolutely next level. you go into these, you know, the conspiracy world is layered and upon entering it as like a newcomer you're met with, you know, the classic abduction stuff maybe, big foot, yada, yada, as you go deeper and peel back the layers, you find yourself deep within these black budget programs of these private contractors, deep within the bowels of these compartmentalized, military departments that are for, I mean, that are just pretty much secret, complete secret.

And the deeper you go, the less information is out there about it. It's peak of the pyramid. It's like it's really, really hard to get into. But that's where you, Sam, excel. You have an amazing ability to not only dissect, but literally investigate the deepest parts of these black budget military programs that have to do, especially with UFO and USO crash retrieval and exploitation as well. So folks, I present to you, UAP Gerb, welcome. Thank you very much. And I'm kind of glad you bring that up. You know, when I started my channel beforehand,

the years leading up to David Grush speaking in 2023, I'd always felt a little disappointed in some of the research that had been done into kind of UFO crash retrieval and material exploitation programs, at least in kind of the public sphere, everything felt so nebulous and untraceable. Yeah. But when firsthand witnesses or Grush comes forward or other people come forward talking about,

hey, there are programs that are based in, you know, secret compartments of the U.S. DoD or I see intelligence community. And these programs have a name. They're housed at different military bases. They're funded through IRAs, IDIQ, indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity contracts. IRAD's and IDIQ for those listening. Can you give a quick little, because like talking to you, dude, you've heard this before. It's like drinking water out of a fire hose. It's just, it's different funding methods.

Yeah. So kind of some of my work I talk about how private contractors or federally funded research and development centers or university affiliated research centers, we can propose an acronym for those. I know I kind of get some flag for using so many acronyms. It's kind of unavoidable when you talk about military. But there's various funding methods for such institutions. A lot of the time, these are done through sole source contracts, meaning locking

Martin, for example, doesn't have to bid for a contract, indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity contracts, basically saying like, hey, however long this contract takes, however much money you need, we got you. And I found those sorts of contract methods are pretty standard across the board for some corporations like Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin. Raytheon. Yeah, science applications international corporations. SAIC, yeah. Just black holes of money. And, you know, these are just through above board funding methods. People like David Grush have talked about funds being used through these contract methods to fund UFO legacy programs, programs dealing with crash recovery, reverse engineering of non-human craft.

And then you have to look at some of the illegality side. I mean, back in the 1980s, the Navy got in some hot water because Northrop Grumman was charging them $400 for an ashtray and I think the F-14. And contractors were making out on 60, 70 enormous profits on submarine parts. And so in the same line of these contract methods, we just talked about, are there ways funds are being siphoned illegally, you know, off of parts, skimmed off of programs at the end of a fiscal year. Is there money left over that's given to the black budget where there are funds that are literally untraceable and unaccounted for. Yeah. Are there times where cash is given to programs? I don't know. So funding mechanisms alone is we could talk for hours on that about how such programs, if we're operating on the assumption that these programs exist, which I do think they are, how they're funded. Yeah, that is highly interesting and probably, honestly, how these programs are eventually going to come to light. I mean, we've seen something similar happen right before, you know, September 2001. Right. With the Pentagon, you know, looking at their spending habits. $2.3 trillion. It's a lot of money. Not saying that all of that went to UFOs, but certainly there is some unaccounted, you know, dollars there. But before we get into any of this, because I do want to talk, you know, with you about this stuff, because I'm learning as well as. I'm not someone who knows all the stuff that you talk about.

But in watching your videos and I've watched them all there, just really, really, how do I say? It takes it away from sort of the realm that I'm in is this, hey, let's suspend our disbelief. Let's, you know, shift our paradigm slightly, slowly while we ingest this information in a judgment-free sort of environment and treat it as, you know, not only educational but entertaining and like, let's kind of absorb this. When I watch your videos, I walk away feeling, oh my God, this is really happening. You know what I mean? And I know I'm already, you know, incredibly high conviction on this happening, but something about putting names to businesses, names to, you know, funding mechanisms, names to whistleblowers and witnesses and people who are, you know, in the program.

I mean, this becomes a real thing. How did you end up interested in that side of, do you have a, like, you? Like it seems like you would have like some type of military background. But you have a background in engineering. Yeah. I got my degree in engineering from Colorado State only worked in really boring engineering jobs. You know, I wasn't the guy who went on to work at rockets or anything. I would just do like CAD design, various modeling softwares and stuff.

But it's kind of a famous story now. Back in 2023, a bunch of my friends were interested in the subject. I had always been known as the wacky UFO guy. Really? I loved UFOs. I grew up reading UFO books, obsessed with Bob Lazar as a kid. obsessed with any sort of UFO story I could get my hands on. So I said, sure, I'll make a PowerPoint presentation for you guys. We'll go through this together. That ended up being

300 plus slides. The day it came to showing my friends, nobody showed up. That's the most UAP GERB thing I've ever heard. But nobody showed up, none of my friends. And this was for like five friends. Oh, no. So I said, I'll parlay this. I'll make a YouTube video. I'll make some videos on YouTube, you know, maybe 100 views to do something cool. Yeah. And I started with the Wilson Davis memo because I thought that was a perfect place to kind of, see where the rubber meets the road from those notes because not only our names mentioned, but offices, you know, the Oestad, Undersecretary for Defense for Acquisition and Technology. Yeah, for those who don't know, as Eric Davis, who's a physicist, who's reported to work on some of these programs,

and also Admiral Wilson. Yeah. Who. Vice Admiral Thomas Wilson, Deputy Director of the DIA. Well, I'll take it away. Okay, yeah. So I guess in 1997, Stephen Greer and his disclosure project met with VAA. DM, Vice Admiral Thomas Wilson. This isn't up for debate. Like, this actually happened. There are

meeting notes of this. I think even Thomas Wilson says he met Greer there. This included Navy Reserve Commander, Commander Will Miller. This included Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin. I'm trying to think who else was at this meeting because there were a handful of people. And the story goes that, you know, Greer and his disclosure project and these witnesses talked about UFO crash retrieval reverse engineering programs. And Vice Admiral Thomas Wilson was so floored. He embarked on his own quest to do so. And these 2002 meeting notes are a recollection of the meeting between a supposed alleged meeting between Eric Davis and Thomas Wilson in 2002 in the parking lot of EGNG, which of course

itself is a famous defense contractor may be involved with such programs. But these notes basically recount Admiral Thomas Wilson's ventures into finding UFO legacy programs hidden within the Sappox, special access program oversight committee, guarded by the senior review group, SRG, and how he, as a deputy director for the DIA and very senior flag officer for the Navy, was denied access to such programs. Stonewall told, hey, here's the top line. We have craft. They're not from here. We're trying to figure out how they work, but denied access. And all sorts of people are named. Paul Kaminsky, Brigadier General, Michael, I think it was Ward, I think. William J. Perry, who is Dep Seck Deft, Deputy Secretary of Defense.

So all these names and what's really interesting in these notes is Wilson talks about how back in there's been some restructuring of these UFO legacy programs in the notes. It famously talks about an incident in the 90s, which a Pentagon audit almost revealed such programs. And they had to read this guy in. Yeah. The auditor. Yeah. Basically then the programs were restructured under Sappok, SRG, the special access program oversight committee's senior review group. What's interesting about that is that restructuring was done under the Deputy Secretary of Defense, William J. Perry, him and the following successor Deputy Secretary of Defense who would oversee Sapphock, John M. Deutsch. And then some other members of permanent members of the Senior Review Group are all SAIC personnel, which is a famous contractor and mitre personnel, which is an FFRDC that at least I'm aware is up to their eyeballs in this. But that's where I started for the channel, because I really wanted to see where the rubber met the road in terms of.

tangible action you could take to look at UFO legacy programs. But when I would talk about like a line, like, you know, Vice Admiral Thomas Wilson talks about Paul Kaminsky. I wasn't satisfied just relaying that line. Like, okay, who was Paul Kaminsky? Why did he work for mitre? Yeah. Who is Donald Kerr? Why does he connect to the NRO and SIAIC? And the fact that that list that was sort of given or shown to Admiral Wilson at the time was, to his surprise, mostly private contracting names. They weren't military. And he just assumed, I think as most people would, that when you think about crash retrieval and exploitation, that, oh, it's the government. Always like this. Unamorphous blob. Exactly.

And the truth is that actually according to that, you know, memo was that most of those names, a large percentage of them, were not government officials. Yeah, they were civilian contractors. And there's a really good reason for that as well, right? when you go into, especially when you go into, like, IP. Someone's personal, you know, IP can't be, can't be touched if it's like a private corporation. We've seen this as well with the Department of Energy that went from the military to the Department of Energy.

Again, it puts it into private contractor hands because there are laws preventing the government from going into things that belong to people, like discoveries that they've made. Yeah, it also really allows for minimal congressional. oversight, which is one of the things people discuss with UFO legacy programs that the majority of Congress isn't read in. I would be encouraged to tell people to take a long, hard look at who in Congress has been on the mitre payroll specifically in SAIC and that those people might have some understanding of these programs. I mean, so the Wilson Davis notes, VAD and Wilson says that, you know, the whole legacy program portfolio is pretty much guarded, kept under wraps by

the U.S. elements of DoD and I.C. and one private contract of that he refused to name. I personally think that is Science Applications International Corporation, just because I did a video on this company, crazy weird company. They, of course, took on the research of Project Stargate from SRI and the CIA. Yeah, they're involved in all that psychic stuff, which, you know, psionics ties into all these other things, obviously.

They've been known as a revolving door, the NSA West, that generals, former directors of intelligence agencies, Bobby Ray Inman, for example, they trade in their stars and stripes for a pinstripe suit and they head over to SAIC. Yeah. So that's kind of where the impetus of my research started. And then what I would move on to do is I would, I've sought out many a witness in my time, firsthand witnesses. These range from kind of infamous, famous people on my channel, Jonathan Waygant, Michael Herrera, to a lesser known guys, one guy by the pseudonym MS.

And I would take their testimony, hear what they had to say. And after enough time of trying to listen to their testimony, hear it, explore it, I would try and build a case around it. Right? Like we talked a little bit about Dougway. There's a friend I have by the acronym MS. He saw a craft in the Avery area of Dougway. A saucer type craft looked almost like a top being basically experiments on by a team. And his testimony is so short, right? Well, what's, can you walk us through that testimony? Yeah. So by the way, by the way, I just want to say, I love your passion. I think it's so, so freaking awesome to watch you light up when talking about this stuff. Dude, it's, It's awesome. It's we need people like you. And so, yeah, the hat's off to you, dude. It's so awesome what you're doing. I love what you bring to the table and your energy and everything. So, yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah. Well, MS, he was a contractor for the C-Martin Corporation, which has facilities located near Dougway. He was like a sign tech, an electrical meter reader and so forth. This was 2019 to 2013, I believe. I'm trying to recall the dates. He had formerly served in the Navy. So, He is out one day reading electrical meters for an employee that was off that day. They go up to all these buildings. He's in the Avery section of Dougway, which is right by Michael Army Airfield.

So Dougway Proving Ground, people may not know, is the United States Premier Chemical and Biological Testing Center. Huge, 13 to 1,500 square miles. It's comprised of two U.S. DoD MRTFBs, major range test facility bases. These MRTFBs are where the primary amount of U.S. DOD research development test and evaluation occurs. So all of the latest and greatest like jets, vehicles, weapons, things like that, that's where we're testing them out? There's 23 of these.

I think there's seven Air Force, seven Navy, seven Army, and then two defense agency ones. Some of these include the Edwards-Fort 12 test wing, NAWC, China Lake, Pax River, Yuma proving ground, Fort Washington. Chuka, all sorts of the Atlantic Undersea Evaluation Test Center. I can't remember the acronym Altec. And do you think for the most part these facilities, I mean, for the most part, do, you know, obviously top secret research, but on non-exotic technology. So it's not like they're all just flying UFOs around all day. Don't get the wrong impression. But they are held in like this crazy, like there's deep underground military structures there. And they do all of their. flights under complete secrecy because it is national security. This is advanced tech that they're working on, regardless of it being alien or not. Right. Clear the flight line. Yeah. Before we continue

with MS. Speaking of that, I have a buddy who was in Army Public Affairs. This was about 2015 time. He was up at Groom Lake, Area 51. He was with some colonels near the Chow Hall. And every time there's a classified airframe flight, they clear the flight line, close the windows. Nobody's allowed to look, because he's with these colonels. They're allowed to observe the flight line. We talked about this last night, but on the flight line, he sees a huge black triangle and it just takes off at incredible speeds vertically, doesn't disturb any of the dust around it. So that might be the times where, hey, the legacy program gets to use some of the, you know, the airstrips gets to test some airframes. That's, that was at Area 51? Yeah, Groom Lake. And that's, the Groom Lake

detachment, Area 51 is run by Edwards, a detachment from Edwards, the 412 test wing. And we can get into that later because the Edwards 412, I think, is the Air Force Department that actually tests reproduction vehicles. But so Dougway employs two MRTFBs, major range test and facility bases. The West Desert Tech Center, which is run under the Army Test and Evaluation Command. What's interesting about that, A-Tech, the Army Test and Evaluation Command, is they operate outside of a traditional Army research and development protocols. So they kind of have free range to do whatever they want, kind of unaccountable. And then the Utah test and training range. UTTR.

The UttTTR. The Uttar's equivalent of the Nevada test and training range. All the classified airspace were Broom Lake, Nellis Air Force Base,

possibly S4 operate. So MS goes to the Avery Center of Dugway to read some meters. In my video on Dugway, I have a map of it. It's really weird buildings.

There's like classified storage buildings, old internal rail systems buildings, because one of the big things about Dugway is the existence of a deep underground

military base. Yeah. And so there's internal rail systems. And so at an unmarked building in the Avery, MS walks inside and just right there are men in uniform, Indusac, industrial security personnel holding weapons, and then there is a craft just floating there. It is a saucer almost like a top-shaped craft, but there's paneling removed from the bottom

where he sees, similar I know how interested you are in Bobliss are, an inverted cone type thing. He doesn't know what this is, no idea, but it's like an inverted triangle cone that seems to be free-floating in the bottom little jutting out part of the saucer. Whoa. And so he is held at gunpoint taken to the ditto area of Dougway, which is another existing area of Dougway and debriefed for hours, told not to talk about it and so forth. Wow. So it's an incredible testimony that is pretty thin, right?

Mm-hmm. It's pretty thin, but there's- Was he reprimanded at all? Do you know? No, no. He's just told not to talk about it. Just told not to talk about it. But he somehow came in contact with a chemist. that said he worked on the craft.

Oh, my God. And this chemist didn't work on the craft at Dougway, but under Dougway. Right, at one of the dums. And so this guy, MS, and I, we plan to talk to this chemist. And then I haven't heard from MS since. Like, we plan to have a call with this chemist and then. Classic goes off the radar. And that happens quite often.

But Dougway is so interesting. I mean, the West Desert Test Center that focuses on chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear and emergency type research, that most of the directors of the West Desert Test Center are former Betel Memorial Institute personnel. And then if, you know, the viewers know anything about Batel Memorial Institute, they kind of have their names written all over this back from Project Stork in 1949 to the claims of the alleged Reddit exobiologist leaker. Yep. That's where the bodies were held essentially. Well, the dead ones.

Very, yeah, very interesting. And unofficially known Dougway as Area 52. That's right. In 1997, popular mechanics published an article saying the new Area 51 or something where they talked about secret projects being moved out of Area 51. What's so weird about that article from 97 is on kind of the, I guess, the aesthetics page for it. There's a little sticky note next to an F-117 that says, call Admiral Bobby Ray Inman at S-A-I-C. Whoa. And if people don't know anything about Admiral Inman, Inman is the definition of an intelligence guy.

Yeah. Deputy Director CIA, NSA, DIA, Naval Intelligence, Four Star Admiral. A lifer. The director of the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office and board member to both Wackenhut, SAAIC, and possibly another company called Decision Science Applications, Inc. And back in 89, he would tell NASA mission specialist Bob Eshler to talk to NRO program B director and CIA Directorate of Science and Technology Deputy Director R. Everett Heinem. and Director of Naval Intelligence and BDM Board Member Sumner Shapiro to talk about recovered UFO. Well, I had contacted Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, who was the head of the National Security Agency in the United States,

Deputy Director at CIA, Director of Naval Intelligence, and a variety of intelligence posts, a technologist, and clearly someone that if this was really accurate, that there really were UFOs and non-human intelligence around, this is a man who had to know. So I was able to contact him, thanks to contact through Admiral Lord Hill Norton here in the UK. And this conversation, he alarmingly not only indicated that these issues were covered under national secrecy laws,

but that the United States government did in fact have possession of the hardware associated with this. In other words, this was an actual physical phenomenon. A craft, a spaceship. Several of them, and they were in operational condition, which I assume suggested, that they had been in contact, that they had been given these craft for some reason or another, because they certainly weren't crashed vehicles. A short time later, Bob Exler received this call. Mr. Ackler, this is Tom King, an Emondman's office.

Yes, you would be breaching confidence in or violation. His involvement. But then in 22. BDM was also, they were bought by Northrop Crumman in, like, the 90s, weren't they, as well? Yep. And at the BDM facility in 1985 was where that infamous advanced theoretical physics working group conference was held. Right. The notes of Oki Shannon are now famously published that this meeting was classified via DOE controls. Dude, that's so much information. How does your brain contain this stuff? This is wild. Do you have a history of just being really good at recalling things? Because I find myself, I'll have days where I'm just like a lot better. And I'm sure the viewer is probably simply.

sympathize with my muggle brain over here, but like, I'll, you know, I'll have some sharper days. Another you just seem to be able, you and Jesse actually, have this incredible recall. But your recall is specific to really, really, really specific to these departments. And is it just from studying this a lot? Or is it from repeating it from filming? Or is it just natural? How do you hold this info? It's just studying.

And it's too important for me to forget. Hmm. You know, I talk about on the channel, like a lot of the stuff I do, I try and do behind the scenes to actively bring witnesses, subpoena witnesses, actually try and affect change in the subject more so than just being a content creator. Yeah. Like, I am, my mission is to try to bring forth the disclosure of UFO legacy programs. So, like, I got to be on the ball if I'm, if I'm talking to important people. I, I, I, you are an important person. Hopefully one day. No, right now, absolutely. You are an important person in this, in this conversation.

Make no mistake. that is a fact and everyone will agree with me watching. That's something I wanted to touch on as well is that yesterday you told me this is like you spend 90% of your time traveling, meeting witnesses and, you know, moving and shaken. And the other 10% of the time or your downtime is where you put together these incredibly in-depth, you know, dives on your YouTube channel. So most of the other time, most of that time, you're just, you're speaking to witnesses, you're calling people up, you're doing investigation. You're piecing together the puzzle. Have you ever come across, like, I mean, obviously you've come across a lot of interesting people. Have you ever come across someone or multiple persons off camera that have completely shifted the way that you see this phenomenon?

Yeah. Specifically surrounding the U.S. Army. Okay. There is a witness that in their official capacity in the Army brushed up against Legacy. programs that were conducted under a U.S. Army general, that that testimony has revolutionized how I see this entire subject. And from what I've been able to piece together from there, at least to gain a little bit of understanding into how legacy programs in the U.S. Army work. Because as far as I'm concerned, I think programs are pretty siloed between Army, Navy, and Air Force.

And there's probably a mix of intelligence agencies, probably some ones we don't know that pull some strings. But that really shifted my worldview. And then, of course, talking to other firsthand witnesses and just taking in testimony. I'll tell you what, I can't dive too much into this testimony just because I told this guy I wouldn't, you know, do a full deep dive into his subject without him being right by me. But lately there's all the scuttlebutt about is the 2004 Nimitz Tick-Tick-Tac human made, right? Yeah. Is it Lockheed Martin? Is it M.H.I.

Is it both? What is it? Roscoe has said that it's made waves. And of course, Greer has been saying since like 2018 or 2019, it's Lockheed Skunk Works Tech. But he's never provided anything on that. And then Jeremy Corbell was also told that he was given what he thinks is more passage material, like told, oh, this is definitely, you know, Lockheed or whatever,

which he was like, you know, not believe in that. So what is it? I don't know, because there's one guy I've talked to. I think he's still employed in military service. but in 1991 or two, just following the Gulf War in the Azores Islands, which is a U.S. airbase right off the coast of Portugal, a C-5 galaxy from a U.S. airlift wing pulled in, front opens, and what else is pulled out, but a tick-tac. So on a flatbed? No, I don't know if it's on pallets, but it's not on a truck yet. It was loaded onto a truck. Oh.

it was covered in a tarp and scaffolding or whatever straps described as like pearlescent, perfect, beautiful. But the interesting thing this witness said to me is as the Tick-Tac was being loaded up into a sufficiently large trailer or van or something, that the TARP started to kind of come loose and some airmen, servicemen went to go reattach the tarp. And a couple of them became violently ill. On a spot? Whoa. And this thing is loaded up into a van with unmarked civilians driven away. So we're left with a couple conclusions, like if this testimony is true, which I personally believe it is, was this thing recovered and being shipped back?

But the airlift wing that was seen by the witness operates up near McLean, Virginia. So was this thing flown from Virginia to La Hesse Island to do some testing over water? Right. Was this thing recovered in England, mainland Europe and brought to Lahais Field to transport back to the U.S. mainland to be given to the Navy? I don't know. That's the thing, too, that if you're capable of maneuvering this thing and flying this thing and piloting this thing in the way that is described by Commander Fravor, you wouldn't need to load it up in a truck and put on an airplane then, would you? No. So to me, that says NHI. Right.

That says, well, at least that says foreign. It says, you know, and that's the other thing. The group that was running that into the truck, maybe they wouldn't even know. Right. You know, where it's from. Like a huge pill. Exactly. And to them, it might look alien as well, but it might be some deeper military cover.

You know, who knows? And if Lockheed Martin has that technology. Yeah. If we're adhering to the paper unidentified anomalous characteristics of UAP, I can't remember with the papers titled by Kevin Canuth. Kevin Canuth, yeah. That dropped from a huge altitude to sea level in a fraction of a second was subjected the craft to northwards of 5500 Gs, which if humans have that capability, that is mind-boggling.

Yeah. I mean, our best ballistic missiles start to tear apart at mid-120, 130 G. Yeah, and that's unmanned. Like, you know, manned we can't go past. Right, but we would splatter. Yeah, exactly. We would splatter and a lot of the craft that are capable of sustaining, you know, the amount of Gs that we can sustain

would also start falling apart. Right. You know, burning up and shredding and all sorts of stuff. So yeah. If the Tick-Tac is human-made, that brings some interesting questions because one of the ubiquitous things

about non-human crash retrievals are the perfection of the craft, absence of rivets, bolts, and seams, sometimes cockpits, landing gear, human characteristics that we would identify with airframes. Yeah. And according to Fravor, according to this witness, of course, the Tick-Tack is just perfect.

The only thing that's staying out weird about Fravers account are the little prongs on the bottom, you know? Yeah, that seems like almost meant to attach itself to something else. Yeah, well, that could have been the thing turning under the water. Right, right. Yeah, which brings me to, obviously, what I've been a little mildly obsessed with is this 4chan whistleblower, you know, and I say that and people rightfully cringe at the word 4chan, which you should and you should be skeptical.

You know, my argument in this situation is that I got to work with, what I'm given. You know, so if you're giving me testimony on some weird, sketchy platform, I mean, that's what we got to work with. You know, I can't pick and choose. I can't FOIA request, you know, crash retrieval stuff. So we got to work with what we have. And that was something that really caught my, caught my eye because one thing he said in his sort of Q&A that he had on 4chan near the end of one of the first pages was notice, I don't care, I'm not here for you to believe me, notice yourself coming back to this as time unfolds. And boy, I've been coming back to that time and time again, especially when the conversation turns to these things were deployed from the water.

Massive object moving underwater at 400 knots, you know, even the stuff with the with the drone stuff recently, a lot of that was over the water. There's a there's a huge connection with this USO, you know, underwater, undersea or submerged objects or whatever it is. do you give any credence to that whistleblower? And is there anything that he might have said during that testimony? And I say testimony. I use that very loosely. That corroborates or sort of points to some of the stuff that you've uncovered. Well, kind of like you, I come back to that and look more favorably upon it as time goes on.

Because at least what I understand, Navy operations under C U.S.O. operations are some of the most secretive of the secret. I mean, the U.S. has its own unacknowledged intelligence agency that deals exclusively with underwater reconnaissance. The National Underwater Reconnaissance. Neuro. Yeah. Neuro. And John Ramirez, when he was on the pod, he said that that was like the deepest recovery program. Yeah. And no pun intended. Yeah. So Neuro is interesting because its roots, it was officially created in 1969, but its roots can be traced back to 1964. probably prior. Chief scientist's special projects of the Navy, John Pena Craven, was contracted to work on something called the Deep Suburgence Systems Project DSSP in 1964. And the whole purpose of this was to drastically increase the capability at which the U.S. Navy could perform undersea ocean

engineering. In 1965, he is brought into a briefing and told that the DSSP must satisfy something called Project Sandalor. Sand Dollar was a secretive project embedded in a project, embedded in another project itself embedded in the Polaris ballistic missile submarine program, which was spearheaded by Admiral William F. Rayborne who went on to join SAIC, but that's neither here nor there. He said Sand Dollar was an itemized inventory of every single item of national security interest, nuclear and otherwise on the seafloor. And that to satisfy these conditions, the U.S. Navy would create something called the DSRV,

deep submergence rescue vehicle and the DSSV, deep submergence systems vehicle or something that could operate up to 20,000 feet deep and that these would retrieve items from Sandhaller on the sea floor. Now, outside of crashed Tom Katz later on and other World War II bombers and other vehicles of interest. Submarines, maybe. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's, of course, 1969.

Yeah. Once Nero was created, its maiden voyage was on the Glomar Explorer to retrieve the K-129 Soviet submarine that crashed a bit north of Hawaii. And then bombs as well, like duds and, yeah. And what's interesting about that is 1972 that same year, there's a witness who talked to Leonard Stringfield, who said at the Great Lakes Naval Station up in

Chicago that in 1972, a teardrop-shaped perfect UFO was brought in that was recovered by the Glomar north of Hawaii in 1970s. That's right in Hawaii. I watched that in your latest video. Yeah. That was really enjoyable to explore more. But that's why he put some credence into that 4-chan whistleblower because he put so much

emphasis on undersea recovery, exploration and monitoring as well. Yeah. Like there are, I have these old reels that I publish like for the, for the members, which I sent you a link to, these old reels that I have done. And there's a lot of, there's one in there, especially that's all about sort of the underwater systems that they use, the satellite systems that they use to, you know, keep track of weather environments and any other anomalies that might happen in the ocean, that might give

us some clues as to natural disasters and whatnot. But if they had that type of technology back in the E-60s, you can just imagine how probably how skillfully they're able to navigate the ocean floor at this point using all types of technology. And they don't have to be anywhere near the water. Right. You know, they can be sat at their home and like scan every. It must be like mind bending and must make their recovery efforts a lot easier now. Well, because one of the primary objectives of Nero was to, I think, the Ivy Bells program, you tape monitoring sensors to the ocean floor, basically.

I think it was Ivy Bells, but to basically be able to listen from the ocean floor, similar to we have satellites run by the NRO up in space. And of course, like you're talking about, whether it's Admiral Gallaudet, whether it's Kevin Canuth, there is so much discussion about enormous, like aircraft carrier-sized U.S.Os. In Kevin Canuth's case, in a New Zealand destroyer, disabling electronics on the craft as it passed under. As it passed under.

Is that the big hamburger shape replicating vehicle? Quite possibly. Yeah, the MCU. Because it's interesting that that whistleblower says that these craft are built to spec, right? And that's part of the reason why some of these crashes. It's just throw away trash. It's a crappy glider. We can get rid of it.

Well, not only the craft. Yeah, the biologics. Also seem to be disposable. Yeah, and that seems to be, of course, kind of the case with the gray type being. Or at least some of them. at least some of them, are almost like worker bees built to perform one task. Yeah, if they wander too far from the craft even that they fall ill and die or whatever. Yeah.

And a lot of the golden age crash retrievals where biologics are found, whether this is Kingman, Roswell, Aztec, there's a complete absence of food systems or bathrooms or dormitories in the craft. And it's just like these biologics were put in there to control the craft and that's about it. Yeah, to do their tasks. And one thing that's interesting, because he kept repeating. built to spec and he emphasized it in capital letters built to spec i can't emphasize it enough listen to matt brown's testimony for whatever that's worth i don't know i don't know the guy i don't know how deep he ran i don't know what ties he has but he emphasized made to purpose sounds an awful lot like built a spec go i think part of it's um sometimes these might be you know

made to purpose. So, you know, if they're only making it for a specific use case scenario, they'll design it to excel on that mission. I guess we do that. We do that. Absolutely. We have bombers that look a certain way. And then we have reconnaissance vehicles that look another way.

Star Wars, they have giant cruisers and they have the ex-fighters for different jobs. Would you be surprised to hear about cases where these things, large objects, come out of the ocean, or go back into the ocean? Does that sound familiar? I would not be surprised. I have not seen very large objects go in and out of the water, but I've definitely seen small to medium-sized UAPs either going into the water and disappearing or going in and out or coming out of the water. And right after he said it, he starts talking about seeing some of these smaller vehicles being deployed from the ocean immediately after.

And I go, okay, either this guy's watching my videos, he's on 4chan, or, Or he knows something that is sort of corroborating the 4chan, you know, guys account. So he talks about that and he talks about reproduction vehicles. That's right. Specifically, triangle seen over Indo-Patcom above foreign vessels. Yeah, Russian vessels too. And I think in there, there was a mention of it. So it's just a mind-boggling testimony that that talks about craft being deployed from undersea

and that humans have our own reproduced vehicles because that's, of course, one of my huge interest, the subject of ARV, if you want to call it, alien reproduction vehicle. That term actually originated with Brad S of the Norton Air Force show back in 1988, who saw the flux liner, the, you know, the gel and mold reproduction craft. The term has been associated with Stephen Greer throughout history, but no, it actually originated from Sorens, Brad S back in 1990. And then was then talked about by senior editor of Aviation Week in Space Technology, Bill Scott in a 1990 interview that he did with Brad S, the primary witness to that case. So that's where that term comes from. And there's a lot of interesting stories about reproduction vehicles, whether it's the flux liner, whether it's a triangle,

TR3B, XF131, Super Sentinel, Tic Tac, what Michael Herrera saw, the eight gone type thing, all sorts of these. That is one of the most interesting things because, you know, you and I were talking in your local area, there's, you know, some, there's been some historic triangle sightings. And that's been one of my favorite deep dives to look into, too, are triangles, man, made, craft, are they in a chai craft? Are there a mix between them and so forth? Because Immaculate Constellation talks about reproduction triangles. It does talk about that.

And it almost solely focuses on craft that were observed over water. That's the other thing, whether it's spheres or triangles or whatever it was. It's pretty much, you know, just over the ocean. Another interesting thing Matt Brown has talked about since in his tweets is he talks about special purpose hangers at Pax River, the Texan River, owned by the Amentum Corporation. So what he's implying here is that Amentum owns hangers that are now storing, recovered, or produced, or just found or donated vehicles. Yeah, that's such a wild. I mean, it seems like they got a lot of these things.

That's because you hear about all these bases. You hear about S4. Even at S4, we're talking 1988, 1988, 1989. And, you know, that was only above ground, which we now know, there's probably below ground stuff happening there too. But above ground, there were nine hangers. That's just above ground in 1988, 89, at that one location. So, I mean, conservative estimate, how many UFOs do we have? Gosh, I don't know, because if you look at Ryan S. Woods, Magic Eyes Only,

which is a pretty comprehensive account of known UFO crash retrievals, there's like 120 or more. Even if only 33% of those are real, that's still about 40 retrievals. And then before, you know, I know Jake Barber can be a little controversial, but before he went public, when people were talking about Jake before he was known publicly, they would speak about how his range would sometimes retrieve between one and two craft a year. Wow. And if he had been at that range for 20 years, that could be up to 40 craft just at that spot. And it seems like they're craft dispersed possibly under S4, under Area 51 Groom Lake, certainly in my opinion, at least under Edwards, under Fort Wachuka, under Patuxent River,

or at Patuxent River, under China Lake. Wright Patterson. Yeah, right Pat under Dougway and possibly an entire enormous network of dumps, the connections of which we can never even comprehend. Yeah. It makes it kind of overwhelming, don't you think? Yeah. Because, like, you're able to navigate all of this in a way that,

in your mind somehow makes sense of it all. For someone like me who's pretty well versed in this space, you know, not, I'm just kind of like an in between. I keep a foot here, keep a foot there. But it's a lot for even my brain to comprehend. How do you see people coming into this space involved with the government tackling this subject? Because if they're not someone, like you, it would be so easy to fool them. That's a great question. And to me, it's a little bit unfortunate, too, the answer. Since 2017, members of the Senate, specifically Marco Rubio and Senator Gilbrand,

their team of staffers, one has been named Kirk McConnell, would pull witnesses and work with Arrow to interview witnesses and such. So Rubio was briefed on the subject for six years. And then he still has contributed nothing. My opinion is he doesn't want to stake his political career on this. And then you have the House who is receiving disclosures from David Grush and others and connections to witnesses and briefings to witnesses and all this. And they seem completely inept to tackle this issue as well. How does any sort of government agency or employee or official tackle this?

At this point, I think it has to be on like the DNI type level, the Director of National Intelligence. I think it needs to be tackled at a very high level. because it seems both Senate, we have the power, we just don't want to stake our careers on it. They don't want to get involved and the House is just too inept. And again, it has to be someone from the outside. I mean, everybody else is compromised in some type of way where like they've got too much to lose. Probably. And then, of course, in the programs, they run, at least in my opinion, from what I've heard with minimal oversight to sprinkled here and there, there might be a senator or a rep that is actively briefed in on the payroll of legacy. an example might be Mike Turner, the representative who kind of stonewalled the UAPDA that was on, served the district of Mike Pat.

Yeah. Yeah. And then of course, there's so much disinformation as well. I mean, it's just, it's such a difficult mess for newcomers to track because even like Eric Berlinson, who's since 2023 talking to Grush, talking to witnesses is now kind of traveling to South America, looking at the mummies or the sphere, sorry. And the mummies. And so just, and then kind of interfacing with Stephen Greer and then kind of like, I don't

know if it's true or not, but spilling conversations, he says he had with grush about the morphology of four different types of non-humans. And so it's a really difficult place to track. I think what needs to happen and witnesses need to be subpoenaed, you know, get their butts in a seat and force them to disclose. I don't know how that sort of power can be contracted and executed properly. I think a dedicated task force needs to be made, but it's just such a quandary and such a pickle. But then, of course, you have Arrow that's supposed to be doing this stuff. And now the former- They're on legacy payroll too, though.

Yeah. The former deputy director, Tim Phillips is now doing his podcast tour, doing his, now that he's off the payroll so he can say whatever he wants. That's what Susan Go would say, who, A, would badmouth guys like David Grush on LinkedIn. Yeah. And B is now talking nonsense on podcast, talking about the Majestic 12 Special Operations Manual. What's interesting here is on the Event Horizon podcast, great show, John Michael, Gaudier is one of the smartest people that I've ever heard speak. But Tim Phillips alludes to the special operations manual on that.

Yeah, they talk about it quite extensively. Yeah. And he says, oh, like, I don't remember any illustrations, viewers of your channel, because you've covered the song, know that there's boxing instructions. He said he kind of skirts around that. When Tim Phillips would have conversations with other podcasters off air on the episode, he would talk that the manual he saw had extensive documentation. On packaging and imagery.

So he can't get on the same page as what he says on air versus off air. He also can't get on the same page with Kirkpatrick. Kirkpatrick says off air that he is familiar with the SOM. That's what Phillips is talking about. The Somme is the special operations manual that was leaked in 94 to Don Berliner, which contains basically instructions on how to handle and retrieve craft, you know, alien craft. Right. And so then

And bodies. Yeah, and bodies and different types of bodies, two types of EBEs. Two types of EBEs, yeah. And Sean Kirkpatrick says that, you know, we know this document, but Majestic 12's already been debunked, so we didn't really pay attention to it. Are you kidding me? And this is Sean Kirkpatrick, the guy who has patents with SAIC and patents on influences in a social channel. He's on a payroll. This is Sean Kirkpatrick, the guy who in 2022, while he was directing Arrow, Arrow got contracts with Sand Corp, a company specialized,

he's specializing in preventing whistleblower leaks. This is Sean Kirkpatrick that immediately when he left to leave Arrow, he went to work for Oak Ridge, which is a Department of Energy FFRDC, federally funded research and development center. There's rumors milling around that there are two craft under Oak Ridge. This is the same guy who went on to work for Georgia Tech's UARC, University Affiliated Research Center, as a senior advisor. This is the same guy whose LLC, nonlinear Solutions, has now, as of 2025, started subcontracting with MITR for U.S. Space Command.

Whoa. What are they doing there? This is the same Sean Kirkpatrick who ghosted Jesse Michaels on a $100,000 podcast appearance. You're like, that guy's got to have some pretty good money if he can turn down 100K. Yeah. And this is the same Sean Kirkpatrick who the Arrow Historical Report, Volume 1 lied about witness testimony. Yeah. Perfect example.

Like actually tangible proof is the Michael Herrera testimony. The Arrow Historical Report Volume 1 says he talked about extraterrestrial vehicles and U.S. special operations seem. Well, Michael's official memorandum. for record mentions no such thing. And why was Arrow created when the initial legislation proposed in 2020 and 2020, or 2022 and 2023 was supposed to be an office called the UAPJPO, Joint Program Office? Arrow is almost a bastardized version of that and probably just serves as a honeypot. Ask anybody who has testified to Arrow, if Sean Kirkpatrick was even in the room, he'd be sitting back on a notepad,

maybe ask one or two questions. Just that office is a mess. And now Kozlowski, I don't know if he has his head in the right place. I don't know if not. But even recently... Well, he even told James Fox in a skiff, he goes, you can go on the record with this, but my hands are tied. That's what he told James Fox again, escape. He's like, go on the record, my hands are tied, insinuating that he would like to, but it's just above his pay grade and he can't do anything.

And we might have an example of that. I talk all the time about these FFRDCs in Newark's. Essentially, what these are, are... They're not contractors. They're not universities. They are semi-private institutions. So like MITR Corporation is a federally funded research and development center. It's not fully private, but it's still semi-private.

So USG and DOD can keep their hands on them. But back in November when Kozlowski and Arrow testified to Senate, you know, following the house hearings where Elisando, Schellenberger and Michael Gold and Gallaudet testified, that Kuzlowski said, oh, we're Arrow. we're working with FFRDCs and URCs, but we can't name them and all that. So it's just some interesting ties. Yeah, definitely. I think that's, you know, part of the question I was asking you before we got into this was how do it? You know, it, it, we're, you know, I'm, I'm Canadian, so I have no major dog in the fight, but I also just find a kind of discouraging time after time. We get these congressional hearings.

We get these meetings. We get these promises, we get these, you know, oh, the latest act, you know, hit the floor and like all this. And it's, it kind of seems after hearing and watching your videos that like, dude, this stuff is so layered that even the people who are directly involved with like investigating it don't really understand what's going on. Yeah. And, you know, listening to you, I can't imagine there are a hundred people in the world that know. know anywhere near as much as you do on this subject. I can't even imagine 10 other people in the world who know as much as you do about the military's involvement and private corporations involvement with like retrieval and exploitation. So like what's why don't they just hire you? Why don't why aren't you the guy? I'll glad I would gladly help gladly because these layers do go so deep. I mean, I know Jesse talked about this on Rogan, but Sean Kirkpatrick Arrow, it was. set up under the Undersecretary for Defense for Intelligence and Security. And this was under Kirkpatrick's BFF, Ronald Moultrie, former USDA INS, is former board member for Battelle,

MITR Institute and Chairman of the Better Angels, which is funded by the Carlisle Group. So even a guy who sets up Arrow is so deeply connected to some of these alleged offices and programs. Yeah. They would never let it out. That's what I keep feeling is like anything we get has to be forcibly. taken, but never asked for. It sounds silly to me to be like, oh, well, here, here's a paper. You have to tell me what you have. Like, they're just going to go, okay. And I don't blame some witnesses for not wanting to disclose. I mean, imagine being a GS-15 or spending 30 years in the

army. You get paid a great salary because you've given your life and your body to the country for decades, and you're forced to sign NDAs. And if you break any of these NDAs, what you saw, you're not going to get killed outright. You're going to get your pension straight. You're going to get your pension stripped. Yeah, or you get defamed. Yeah. You get ridiculed. Look what happened to Grush.

They attacked his credibility. They attacked his mental health for some reason. That Klippenstein piece, nonsense. It was absolute nonsense. And as any, you know, anybody who's lived with a veteran or like, you know, like, my father served 30 years in the military and Canadian Armed Forces as well, you know, that stigma of like, oh, you've lost your mind. It is so, it is so 100 years old.

You know, this isn't shell shock we're dealing with. This is, okay, these are, like, traumatic events that we have to, like, look at. But that doesn't hinder you from having completely sane conversations and knowing what you're talking about. Right. For them to, like, lump it all into one category and be like, oh, you're mentally unstable, therefore none of what you're saying is true. I think it's kind of an insult to a lot of the American veterans that are out there. Yeah, I mean, to, because we have a specific case, to attack Grush because he was grieving a friend and suffering from PTSD.

Yeah. Repugnant. Yeah. That is repugnant. Yeah. And that's the lengths they'll, I mean, that's just tip of the iceberg of what they'll do. Yeah. If they want to shut you up, they'll attack your credibility.

Even Lou, he was sat there right where you're sitting. And he said, you know, deny. And first thing you do is deny. And second thing you do is like redirect. Yeah. That's actually guideline for USAP. Yeah. If you're read into USAP, you deny and then you lie.

You redirect. Yeah. Like you are obliged to. And USAP is. It's an unacknowledged special access program. Operates in the Department of Defense. On the intelligence side, you have a cap-controlled access program. There are special access program, unacknowledged special access program, and some of these

are waived USAPs, meaning they're off the book from congressional oversight. So even the setup of such programs are so intriguing. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's tough, man, because you don't know who to trust, right? You get a guy like Lou come here, you know, and talk about these things. and, you know, he's a really nice guy. Like, I met him.

He's, like, a super friendly person. But from his background and from everything else, like, I don't know if I can believe him. And that's just the state of things. I don't know. Like, he's been proven time and time and again to have said things that turned out to not be true. Yeah. You know, so then you have to start asking yourself, even though I like the guy, even though I think he's, you know, a nice person and means well, man. Like, can I even believe a word that comes out of his mouth?

And this happens, you know, and I don't want to be paranoid. But I'm also facing the reality that these programs stop at nothing to confuse you, to, you know, to remain completely aloof. Yeah. Lou did previously work at the counterintelligence field activity. So I don't want to get involved in the drama there, but I do think that is something for people to think about. And neither do I. But I'm, I'm not attacking this, but I'm coming at it from a very pragmatic point of view. And if Lou were sitting here, I'd say the same thing to him. that although I think you're a nice person, you've been nice to me,

I now know that I might not be able to trust you when it comes to these things because you might be doing your job. And I just got to step away from that a little bit. And especially in this field where there's so many sciops and psychological warfare. I mean, recently with the Wall Street Journal piece and the Yankee Blue, hey, if Yankee Blue can trick 10,000 Air Force guys, go ahead, release those documents in the photos that tricked so many people into thinking we had an anti-gravity drive. It's not classified because it's fake.

Go ahead, pop it out. Let's see it. It doesn't have to wait till Aero, historical volume 2, which it won't be in. Go ahead. If it's not real, show us. Even Kirkpatrick and others don't think different EMP or weather systems were responsible for 67 Malmstrom. Wall Street Journal claimed it with some EMP device 40 feet high walked up to the door. And also the problem with that is it focuses specifically on Air Force programs. UFO programs, at least from what I understand, and I would say this with the utmost confidence, are not relegated to the United States Air Force. It may seem like it. UFO, airframe, flies through space and atmosphere, but no, there are active RDT&E programs in the U.S. Army, Navy, and probably offshoot weird psych programs, sci programs in the CIA, NSA, neuro, all that sort of weird stuff. Yeah. You know, and that's where I think eventually my mind goes from all of this, which feels really like sort of like pardon the woo, you know, term here, but like lower density. energy where it's like, hey, why are we, why are we even wasting time with these channels right now? Because it does seem, to me, at least, a little fruitless in terms of, like,

searching. Sure, like, you're going to get some witnesses come out of the woodworks and say these programs exist, but shouldn't the bigger news be that aliens exist? Yeah. You know, and which is why initially, when I was looking at Skywatcher, you know, initially I was like, oh, cool, something to bridge the gap here between people who believe that you can summon these things through CE5 and then other people who've been on these crash retrieval. And now we have some type of like middle ground, you know, where like you said, rubber meets the road. But, you know, part of me is still has a hard time leaning into that side of things because I'm like, well, if you can make contact, then you don't need any of any of that.

Has, has you, have you ever encountered anything in this space through witness testimonies or anything else that led you to believe that there is communication happening with NHI. You could talk about the, well, to start, the barber testimony, I, it's such a, it's become such a can of worms. Remember, I've been connected with this whole story for so long, because this was the insider that took Michael Herrera to the infamous range now. Yeah. And when Jake came forward with Ross, it finally was known, finally could talk about that this was the insider of Michael. And of course, Jake's huge claim is that sionics are used to communicate with craft. Well, you know, before he went public, there was a lot more discussion about some of the stuff Jake said and some of the stuff that he did. And there was a huge focus on like direct, very quantifiable summoning of craft to take them down and retrieve the craft. So that sort of psionic aspect is something I've always, I've been interested now ever, ever since Jay came forward. Also the, I'm trying to think above black by Dan Sherman.

That's a pretty interesting testimony too about it. I think he was with NSA, kind of basically interfacing with non-human intelligence. What's interesting to me is there's some former intelligence guys that have sat down and said, hey, like, this is so interesting the way Dan Sherman understood like various intelligence collection methods. You know, we can't, I don't know if he's telling the truth per se, but he seems to have a very firm grasp on like how Eland electronic intelligence collection is made. Besides that,

there's, you know, pretty famous stories of deals made with NHI, specifically like Holloman Air Force Base and Eisenhower. Yeah, the Briata Treaty. I don't know if that stuff's true, but it's certainly interesting. To think about, I am kind of disturbed to, not disturbed, but encouraged, inquisitive and almost a little bit disturbed, to

think about interfacing with non-humans, like conversing with them, technology transfer, swapping ideas. There's, of course, the famous J.Rott story from Bill U. House and Dan Barish. There's William Steinman, who's a great former UFO researcher,

he's now passed. Way back in the day, he forwarded a bunch of witnesses to Greer. These included Mark McCandlish and stuff. But he had a witness who said was a translator for E.T. It's at Area 51. I've never found who this person is.

Whoa. But I wanted to so bad. That's incredible. Like, a translator as in somebody, who could read their thoughts. I don't know. Yeah. And maybe it's a translator in more like a cryptography type setting because with so many

crash retrievals, you have glyphic style writing. Yeah. Aztec, Roswell, Kexberg, Randy Anderson's story. So many of these stories, there's like glyphics. Most of them, actually. Even I read recently, I reread Antonio Villas, and there was like some symbolism over the door there as well that looked, you know, eerily similar to what Danny Sheehan said. saw Project Blue Book.

In the classified files, right? That's right. Yeah. Because he talked about seeing what, a retrieval in the snow and there was running along the outer lip? Yeah, the bottom, the bottom sort of lip of the dome. That might have been, there's a, there's a, I don't know how true this is, but the special report 13 from Blue Book, which is allegedly like the infamous excluded book that talked about NHI autopsies, crash retrievals that was just never included, that even Detloff

Bronx autopsy of the kingman. I mean, the Aztec Beans was included. it in and I've always wondered if that's what Danny Sheehan had had access to. I mean, we'll never know, but that is certainly interesting to think that somewhere in a shoebox. Yeah. But in terms of like interfacing with non-humans, it always seems for all intents and purposes that a lot of this is done telepathically through mind-to-mind connection.

Do you, did you ever come? Okay. So we're going to back up here a bit. You're at a young age. You were fascinated with UFOs. How young are we talking? since I could read. Since you could read.

So how young is that? I have no way. I don't know. Between 5 and 10 at some point, right? Yeah, I just remember having like a UFO sightings book and always wondering, there might be a little bit more to this than just like the average conspiracy, Bigfoot, Joe would want to put credence to. Sure.

So, I mean, you have this deep, deep interest in UFOs from a young age. Part of you is already high conviction that this is real, kind of like my journey as well, watching fire in the sky. at the age of nine, I was like, oh, my God, this is happening. But was there ever a point through either your research or through witness testimony that is yet to come out that gave you, that raised your conviction level on us interacting with non-human intelligence face to face? Face to face, I don't know about face to face, but dead beings and attempting to communicate, yes. Face to face, I don't know. I would love to talk to a witness who can claim to have interacted with a being face to face.

But bodies, absolutely. Dead bodies, yeah. Dead bodies, yeah. You would put your life on that? I would, of course, without seeing them myself, I can't put my life on it, but I would say above 95, 96% convention. Wow. Yeah. And that is based on what's out there publicly or the things that you've heard?

Just witnesses who will not go public under fear for their, livelihood and pension have have witnessed craft and bodies and I have extremely high conviction in the in how many witnesses are we talking roughly I'm talking one one specific that I put so much credence in okay and this is recent uh like about a year I don't want to put you in hot water about a year I've known this person okay very close person like somebody I I I I I try trust on like a very personal level too. Great. And yeah, they've confirmed to you that indeed there are retrieval of bodies, multiple retrievals of bodies.

Yeah. Can you talk about maybe even some of the species? That specific person likes to shy away from the morphology because that sort of stuff was protected in an NDA and a very specific facility. But other people whomst I trust very much have talked about. about little gray beans. Okay. That's something I would highly suspect is true,

especially in just from crash retrieval cases that I personally believe are legitimate Aztec, Kingman and Roswell, little gray bodies, little humanoid bodies. But then I do think there's probably creans to like the tall sort of tall white-esque beans. James, or Charles Hall. Yeah, Charles Hall. The mantis bug type things. That dates all the way back to. Robert Sarbacher, who I put a lot of credence in, if people are unfamiliar with Robert Sarbacher,

he was a prodigy of Einstein. He was a consultant to the Defense Research Board that was operated under B. Bush. In 1950, Canadian radio engineer Wilbert B. Smith reached out to Robert Sarker, hoping to learn more about UFOs. By September of 1950, Wilbert B. Smith wrote a memo to the Canadian Department of Transport, hoping to start a UFO program. Project magnet. And then Project Second Story, two of them. And he said four points.

or three or four points. One, UFOs exist, their modus operandi is unknown. The effort in the United States is spearheaded by Van of Art Bush. And the classification of the program is higher than that at the H-bomb. And Robert Sarbacher, while he never attended these crash retrieval meetings personally at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in 1950, with Vannevar Bush, Dr. Eric Walker, and probably some majestic 12-like entities, Carl A. Highlands, Detlev, Bronx, Roscoe Hill, Encoder, Forrestall, this long day. at this point after he was thrown out of a hospital window, that bodies seen were like insects. And of course, there's plenty of testimony of insect-type beans. I think John Blitch talked about mantis-type beans as well. But Robert Sarbacher, I put so much credence in that because not only did he talk very soberly about Vannevar Bush and all this, but he also introduced Dr. Eric A. Walker,

who was a brilliant scientist as well, head of Penn State, President of Penn State's U-Ark, the applied physics laboratory. And Eric A Walker said himself that he knew about the Majestic 12, that it was real, but to pursue such a venture would be folly. He said to UFO researcher Henry Azadahel, he gave a Don Quote quote, it'd be like chasing after windmills. He also said to Asa de Hell, what do you know about ESP, extrasensory perception? Unless you know about ESP, you would never be admitted into such programs. Isn't that also what the head of Lockheed said? Yeah, James Ryder.

That's right. Who gave talks on like consciousness and really existential stuff. Yeah. Before his passing, like near the end, he was just all about, yeah, if you want the secret to UFOs, you got to understand ESP first. You know, recent discussions by our Roscoe. Ross Colthard has talked about a retrieval that has gone really under the radar in the Bornean jungle he talked about.

He talked to an Australian military photographer. I can't remember the podcast. he discussed this in, but this photographer was contracted by a U.S. recovery team to go inside of a craft and take photos and everything was naked and empty and bare. And the takeaway is that this craft is piloted via consciousness. And a lot of people associate that with Seonics, right, with Jake Barber. But this goes all the way back, even to Philip J. Corso. Yeah, to Roswell. Yeah. And in Don of a New Age, his manuscript, he talks about how a headband. Yeah, the headband transceiver, also in the string field files. Yeah. But what Corso talked about specifically is that, the foreign technology division out of the army, not the Air Forces, this was under General Arthur Trudeau, wanted to abridge that technology, that consciousness technology, to control ballistic missiles with brain waves.

Right. So a lot of this consciousness stuff goes way far back. It's not new. And I'll be honest, it was a, that was, I had to accept that. That was tough as a, like a logical engineering mind. One of the things that really helped me start to settle in was back at the November hearings, you and I talked. And you and I, that's the first time we met.

We were talking about kind of remote viewing and consciousness. And I really had started to kind of open up to ideas then. So it was really cool to be able to speak about that then. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like that's, it seems like that's how it started. Mm-hmm. And after going through the mud and getting past the nuts and bolts, it seems like that's where you always end up.

Yeah. You can't escape it because even if you look at SAIC, you know, the big money contractor, defense, Yeah. Extraordinaire. Okay, they have side programs, remote viewing programs. Okay, so does MITR, the MITR Corporation. Who else does that they're just unacknowledged? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I've heard a lot of shady stuff about them as well. Miter. Miders, I think, is the tip of the spear for Navy programs. Yeah. The absolute tip of the spear. I would just be very interested in their USAP and SAP dealings in McLean, Virginia, in Crystal City specifically. Why is that?

Because Crystal City is where I think eight out of ten of the U.S.'s largest defense contractors are located north of Grumman, Raytheon, all this. And I think this is where most, just as I think that the American West and most of the MRTFB's major range test facility bases, or we're a tremendous amount of UFO reverse or sorry, research development test and evaluation occurs, that Crystal City is where such contracts are executed and handled. Is there a dumb under that location, a massive underground military base? I think so under the Pentagon specifically. There were old plans for it under Lyndon B. Johnson and Nixon, I think it was. Not the NMCC, but an enormous cavern. Would you feel, I almost feel like you might get further if you just hung around some of these bars around there? Probably, probably, but also what kind of spooks are watching, right?

Yeah, obviously all of them, yeah. Who knows when the men in black are watching? I mean, I remember specifically... Have you ever had a run in? No, not in person. I've had weird, I've had, nobody has ever contacted me in person. I've had weird instances where a close witness and I were talking and as soon as we started to ramp up our conversations, we'd get calls from somebody claiming to be an, sorry, a special

investigator asking if we specifically were talking to each other. Whoa. And like they would say my name and I wasn't using my personal phone number, right? I was using a, trying to be careful. That was just like Jonathan Waygantz. fellow Marines he was with. I emailed one of them from my UAPGurbatgumel.com email. My name's not on it. It's not even associated with my IP address. I try to go through lengths to make sure that, you know, I can stay under the radar. And this Marine, this guy retired a master sergeant, responded,

hello, my first name. And it's like, where are these guys getting my name and information? I don't quite like that. Uh-huh. So you've had multiple people try to hit you up, text messages, phone calls, emails, telling you. Just that investigator. But also, for some other programs or other videos dating back to randy anderson videos yeah your videos yeah randy anderson specifically is when it started just saying like hey i would remove like all mention of crane from your videos and this wasn't from like random people reaching out to me this would be friends who have friends in program saying hey this person said you might want to remove this i'll say no because of course mentioning names can be considered a national security risk but i'm not

divulging classified information everything i'm doing is open source so i'm free to speak about that stuff. Yeah. The men in black encounter that interests me the most is you're familiar with the story of Mark McCandlish, right? Yep. So in 2014, filmmaker James Allen did a documentary on Mark McAndalish. James Allen was diagnosed with a super aggressive form of cancer in past just a couple months before the film's release. And, you know, I don't know what happened to Mr. Allen, but Mark McAndalish ordered an autopsy report and it was shown that Mr. Allen's body had a lot of, like, heavy metal poisoning. But the editor, editor, the editor, editor, of the documentary, he and I spoke a little bit, and he said that whilst he and Alan were working

on the documentary, every time they go into this Georgia bar to have a drink cool down after working on the dock, there would always be this men in black type guy just sitting there staring at him. I always thought that was really interesting. Yeah. But I've been told to watch out for the men in black. Yeah, dude. Not just the men in black, but like the men in blue, the men in gray. Yeah, men in black as in like in tech and intelligence, pretend.

from various agencies. You know, the NSA might have their own, the CIA might have their own. If the NSA has their own, it's called Treat. You heard of that, the tactical reconnaissance engineering assessment team? Yeah, those are like,

that is the men. Well, I heard about it from your video. Okay. Proposed by Stubblebine? Yeah, seems like that's the men in black. Mr. Super Soldier out of Fort Wachuka.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's crazy. I had, you know, we hear about these guys and these run-ins, especially after sightings and stuff.

And even John Ramirez, who was here, said that in the early 50s, lot of those guys were just CIA because they were just conducting, they were doing actual tests out there with like advanced craft. Right. And some people reported seeing UFOs when it was just like whatever advanced craft they were working on at the time. So they would just follow up and ask them like, what is it you think you saw? And just like not tell them, hey, you didn't see anything. So there was that aspect. But then there's the whole, you know, you didn't see anything.

Here's a bag of money. Shut up, you know. Yeah. Even when I was at Seoul in 2024, I didn't interface with this person directly. But a couple of my buddies were like, hey, watch out. There's like a guy from the Rand Corporation poking around here asking people about stuff. And then all the way back to like Leonard Stringfield would write in the 1970s that at Mufon conferences that, you know, he'd have intelligence guys walk up to him and say not to talk about a case or like say, hey, you got to cover this case. I found with witnesses that there's not much I can do when people come to me, right? I don't know what to do with that.

I don't, some of the time I don't know why people are coming to me. The most value, some of the friendships I formed, the most credible testimonies I have heard are from people I have spent months trying to track down. I love that. You mentioned this yesterday and it's something I wanted to touch on a little earlier, but I'm so glad you brought it up. You know, people out there think, oh, you know, this guy's full of this, this guy's full of that. And I would agree, you know, don't pay attention to any of it and just kind of absorb it.

It's all good. I've had people reach out to me with like certain information. I'm just like, I try to tell them, I'm not that guy. Yeah. I'm happy to have a conversation and talk about the phenomenon, but I'm not. going to offer you protection. I'm not going to, like, I don't, I'm just a guy here doing, doing this podcast. However, you are of a different ilk. You are someone who will spend, you know, months and months and months trying to find someone who you don't even know exists,

talking to them and then get them to start talking. Yeah. And then they don't even want to go public at that point. So to me, that's like incredibly high conviction. The biggest, I talk about this all the time in all my videos, but the one that got away, maybe not, but is the video I made on, on Ed, from Edwards 412 test wing, the guy who served as the test director for an electronics workout group that dealt with ARV. Every week, I still try and reach out to this guy all the way back in the day when I first reached out, hey, can we talk? As soon as I say, even allude to an interest in Edwards, blocked. Okay, I reached out to him on a different email. Blocked. Okay, a different email. Blocked. Okay, calling from a different number. Blocked. Text him from a different number. Blocked. Add him on Snapchat.

He sees my message on Snapchat. Blocked. I went so badly to speak to him. There's also a specific general that dealt with programs that I've, you know, interfaced with a few times that he and I had a call. He told me to call him. I expressed interest in speaking about his generalship and, you know, a specific thing program. He ran, a buffboard program, not a legacy program, didn't say my name. Okay, we can talk. Okay. After he sends me that text within an hour, I call him blocked. Other guys that that witness, Ed, worked on. He said, okay, we can talk. Yeah, call when ready. You called him and you were blocked. Yeah. So either he did more research or he was told, hey, stay away.

And the number wasn't my personal number, though. This is like a... No way he could have known it was you. Wild. I know. And then even people Ed worked under at Edwards, commanders of the 98th range wing or a Nevada test and training range. I've tried to reach out to.

I've tried to reach out to DOJ prosecutors. So many people very, very, very rarely with enough tenacity. Will you actually be able to speak to people? It's so rare. Most people will not speak. And that's part of the answer to the question of like, Why, how could you keep this a secret? Yeah.

You know, and when you really look at what's on the line for a lot of these people, it's, you know, obviously pension. It's obviously career, but it's also family. It's so much more. And it's really easy, you know, to get someone to not talk about something. And these programs are untouchable too. DoJ, if somebody in the program, a hireup commits poor deeds, whether this be improper use of contractors, whether this be funneling funds, that are already illegal, whether this be bringing uncleared persons to cite, they cannot be prosecuted.

Hmm. Yeah. That's a problem. Untouchable. And they, you know, I'm a huge proponent in deep underground military bases. A lot of these times, these people don't even operate on the same elevation as their traditional military counterparts. I mean, if you got a dumb under Edwards and there's craft being stored down there, these

guys aren't, these guys from the four 12th test wing operating on the craft under Edwards, are not with their compatriots in the 412 test wing in the random air-conditioned buildings on the surface. Same with Dougway. The guys at the West Desert Test Center, the Indusic Industrial Security personnel, they might only pop up to go test a craft in the Avery area that has an internal rail system possibly backed down. It's crazy. And so many corporations throughout history that we would expect, Locking Martin, TRW, the Rand Corporation, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, U.S. Navy Cs, have all such extensive background in deep underground military bases investigating cats. And so forth. I mean, even in 1964, the Army published a study of 12 deep basing sites that they wanted to build enormous caverns in. Of course, Inyo County that holds NAWC China Lake just north of Edwards is one of those. And even Area 51 was built, probably the underground section is built in a huge boron mine that exists right before Area 51 was officially built. Like there's a huge boron mine in those mountains. I think it's just north. So maybe that's not where the infamous S4 is. But also S4, I also. I also. believe is a real site. Even even it completely independent from Bob Lazar.

Hmm. By Papoose Lake. It that, of course, you know, hopefully, hopefully in the near future regarding Bob's story, we have some new, some new documentary coming out on that. That should be very exciting. Yeah, Luigi Venetelli's documentary, uh, as for the Bob Lazar story. Everybody, I think is, I think this is the most anticipated movie in the UFO sphere, you know, um, you have age of disclosure. that's that's you know coming out which i've seen um but in terms of you know hype you know outside of the ufo world i think i mean i think as for the ball was our story is just like going to be one of the biggest splashes we talked about we talked about the sports model as well and you know i showed you the photo that's a close friend of mine who worked alongside such programs you know high up in dod

and i see you exchange challenge coins to celebrate working together on something i have quite a collection of really cool coins. One of them, it's not like an official agency coin. It's something made by, you know, pretty high up person, a personal coin, but it has the sports model. Sports model on it. And what else is it say on it? It says, what did it say? Exhaalien, like alien exotic technology. Exploitation. Yeah, exploitation. Exploitation is always the word used. And that's why I've started to kind of use that term. Yeah. Material exploitation. Um, can't pull that up, can you? No. Okay.

But I did show you that. I did see it. I mean, it's exactly what we're describing. It's the sports model with some writing. With the small little squares on top. Yeah. Yeah. It's the sports model, black background.

Yeah, with the little square windows. Yeah. Billy Myers craft, if you will. I know. So, yeah. Gosh, I just can't wait to see that video. I know you and I have talked about it so much. I've talked about how Bob Lazar.

I tend to stay away from his story because I'm so biased towards Bob. Yeah. I can't really like report on it or do investigations unbiased because I want to favor Bob so much because I was so invested in his story as a young man. Same. But at least from what you and Jesse have told me from the work of Luigi, there should be a lot more interesting data coming out. There definitely is. They're definitely. No, no, no, no.

It's, well, it's more in depth. And it's just, there's a lot of parts to that story that people have misconstrued. And there's a lot of parts that have just been sort of left out. because to get into the full Bob Lazar story, you can't just, it's so many layers. As you know, looking into this type of stuff, it is layered and complicated and messy. And so to really put that on a timeline for people to ingest in a way that's just sort of like friendly for everyone is a task. You know, it's a major, major task. And then adding on to that all the CGI that they've been doing to help tell that.

story and to really put you in S4 and in one of those hangers. I mean, it's an incredible amount of work. And so obviously there's been delays at that movie, but I just, I don't care. I think it's one of those things that no matter when it comes out, even if it comes out 10 years from now, it'll be groundbreaking. Have you talked to any other witnesses that have like been to S4? Not personally, no. I've just heard things like I've heard Oscar Wolf's account, well, through Danny Sheehan of him, you know, being taken to S4 underground, seeing floating craft there. And then obviously, you know, you hear about Dan Burrish crane. Yeah. In his, you know, sort of a thing that went on down there too. And so it, you know, it's a muddy area. But I'm, I've never been higher conviction on any story. Bob, for me, is telling the truth. I've, you know, I've spoken in, as you know, and I've, I mean, I might know some information

that people will eventually find out as well through the documentary and maybe more information that won't be the documentary. Who knows? Didn't Dan Barish say he never, like, he encountered the name Bob Lazar whilst he was at S for him? No, he says that he might have saw, oh, he heard the name Lazar. Oh. Never. And he said specifically not Lazar.

He's like, it was Lazar. He never heard Bob. And Dan also said that he may have seen him barefoot at one point. Bob is adamant that he's never met Dan Burrish. And so he's like, I don't know why I would be barefoot. Bob's like, that makes no sense to me. So but even Dan caveats that by saying it might not have been him, but it might have looked like him.

Because I know it's the Burrish story. It's Brian Jackson, who's done great work on the case. And I know it's the night shift channel that loves the story. it's cool to see people starting to really kind of give that story the same attention as some of the other infamous testimonies as Bob. Yeah. Of course, with Dan Barish, his claims that the J-Rod are not isolated. There's a former proposed Lockheed employee called Bill U-house, who not only said that, you know, the J-Rod was taken from the Kingman crash, but also the Kingman craft or its platform was used as a flight sim for ARVs. That's interesting.

And, of course, we now know that the Kingman crash was what was supposed to be handed over during the Lockheed Martin, 2009 to 2012 divestment to, you know, various agencies. But by all intents and purposes, the CIA Department of Directorate of Science and Technology and involvement of Glenn Gaffney put the kibosh on that, which would make sense because the CIA, DS&T, Directorate of Science and technology has the grubby pause on everything. Even with NERO, like we talked about, when NERO was created, as soon as NERO was created, because, so in 1969, NRA was formed, the NRO was to coordinate intelligence between the CIA and Air Force. force and Nero was to coordinate intelligence between the Navy and Air Force. As soon as

Nero was created, the CIA DS&T said, nope, this is ours. And it wasn't until 1972 that Secretary of the Navy, John Warner finally got some control. This was long after the possible retrieval of that lenticular craft, that Great Lakes Naval Station guy gave testimony to in 1972. So the CIA DSD, they also created the Office of Global Access, the OGA. That got brilliant guys like Chris Sharp have said, hey, this is the organization alongside J-Soc or largely Socom gets crash retrievals from all around the world. Yeah, that's interesting. And also, I mean, going back to the Kingman crash, I do also believe that Dan Burr said that that was intended initially to be a donation. Really? Yeah. I think in one of his interviews, he said that J-Rod had communicated to him that there

was an agreement prior to Kingman where it would have come down. And they were. going to hand over like biologics like J. Rod would have been handed over as a one-way trade, but then something happened and the craft instead of landing crash landed. Right. Because that's, there's a kind of long lost research, Harry Drew seven days in May, which is a huge Kingman documentary and film that's just kind of been lost to time that talks about multiple crashes. Possible radar interference. You know, we hear that with Roswell, Kingman, Aztec. Yeah. That's some sort of high-powered microwave radar, somehow interfered with craft propulsion. Yeah, either inadvertently or directly on purpose.

Maybe it directly did on purpose because I know we talked about this, but something I put a lot of credence in is that the Ronald Reagan's 1983 Strategic Defense Initiative to defend the U.S. from Soviet ICBMs also had backdoor programs, maybe X-ray, maybe microwave lasers to shoot down UFOs with their particle beam weapons, which sounds like something from Star Wars, but that was actually employed. Then that was the name, that was the unofficial name of the program, was the Star Wars Initiative. And if you look at Bob Lazar, one of the three programs that he was read into was sidekick. And sidekick was the use of, I believe, using gravity as a lens to somehow focus neutrino beams or whatever it was as a directed energy weapon.

You know, the contractor that was involved with SDI initially more than any other contractor combined, S-A-I-C. that's why I think that SAIC specifically is the tip of the spear, the Magnum Opus original legacy program coordinator. Involved in SDI, involved in all sorts of schemes, involved with inmen, involved with all sorts of intelligence guys, the reorganization of Sapphock. Their former program members like Donald Kerr, Donald Kerr is an interesting guy, by the way. I think he's passed by now, but all sorts of individuals. SAIC has their grubby hands on it. With SDI, one of the things that the TR3B main witness, USAF Master Sergeant Edgar Foucher spoke about,

was the Defense Advanced Research Center. And I think this was a facility around Groom Lake. He might have got it confused with S4, but he said that this was an underground facility that held craft and was funded through Star Wars monies. And one of the interesting things he spoke, one of the interesting things about the Defense Advanced Research Center, Daris, is this is not nowhere to be seen.

And there's old ARPA, you know, precursor to DARPA documents that talk about a proposed DARS under Army ballistic missile command. I think it was under Werner von Braun back in the 70s. So that might even be a very tangible thing we can find out more on. Dude, this is so crazy. Like hearing you just go off of it, all this stuff is probably blowing a lot of minds right now. But specifically mine, I'm having, I'm just like trying to follow all these things. And it's so extensive. It is.

And the only thing that I can really take away from all this is that, man, if this many entities have been involved with everything, how are they keeping this under wraps? You know? Well, that's something I've tried to explore too, specifically with somebody who worked in programs. From what I understand, you trade in the stars and stripes for the pinstripe suit. Inman goes from Navy to working in an SAC on the same, doing the same things with programs. Yeah, same clearance, maybe higher. And now something I've really explored and heard about the programs is the personnel, like the bigot, the reading list is very small. So a select group of small group of scientists sometimes perform tasks below them.

So you might have somebody like a particle physicist trying to work on how the skin of a craft can bend light around it. But they'll also be doing accounting. So you don't have to bring. So you can bring as little. people on there as possible. So you can have scientists and industrial security personnel on there and nobody else. Bob was saying too, like there are no janitors at S4. Yeah. A scientist might have to sweep the floor.

Or actually, that would be relegated to like an Indusac, an industrial security guy. Sure. But like there's nominal tasks done by brilliant people to keep these lists small to read on as few people as you can. And then the Lockheed engineer that actually has read on access to some of this stuff is then swapped over to Raytheon and so forth or Northrop Grumman. All of these corporations have the weirdest little coexisting LLCs between each. other like Trya National Security that runs so many FFRDCs federally funded research and development centers for the DOE, which is primarily owned by Battelle and two universities. Even SAIC formed such things with EGNG. EG and G&G, of course, is Wilson Davis notes and Bob Lizarre's employer.

They would form... Yeah, they built Area 51. Yeah, they would form shell companies to work for the DOE. And so my guess with that, at least, is some of the times those sorts of partnerships are used to funnel personnel and money through. Even a mentum with what Matthew Brown said with Pax River, they have so many little LLCs and businesses tied with SAIC themselves. And this is wrapped up in bureaucracy, legalities, NDAs. And none of them are actually, I mean, very few, probably 95% of them aren't told what exactly it is. It's just, it's proprietary. advanced tech, which exists regardless of NHI. I think the keepers of the keys reside in, like, I can't remember who said this, but

DOD, I mean, sorry, corporate mental management. That's why one of my big things is talking about FFRDCs. The money. Yeah, the federally funded research and development center serves as the research and development and testing experts so you can still keep rain over knowledge. As the government. Yes. And then that knowledge is divvied out as needed to the contractor.

Yeah. So you might have a SAP specialist for Northrop Grumman and Lockheed who are aware of the programs, but the engineer is probably just given a piece of metal. And that's like, I mean, that's not unlike the three-letter agencies. I mean, they've been doing that for a long time with technology. Like, for instance, the CIA will develop something, a lithium battery, let's say, and then release it to the public or, you know, give it to a corporation. The corporation will then go to mass manufacturing, which drives down the price, which allows the CIA to buy it back. And so, like, there's a lot of those things happening, too, where it's just all business oriented, where, like, the government doesn't want to spend trillions of dollars developing something because you have to account for that money. So you give willingly that information away to these corporations, they go into manufacturing, which drives down the price and you can buy it back.

That's what Corso talked about. Huh? He talked specifically about the Sperry Rand Corporation, Bell Labs. But interesting about the Sperry Rand Corporation, when that went defunct in 86, gave all of its assets away to Raytheon, Lockhe Martin, North Brumman, I think, Miter as well. So, you know, Corso would talk in his manuscript, not day after Roswell, but his manuscript that wasn't co-written. He would talk that the technology derived or bolstered from non-human craft would be used to strengthen military might and then given to American industry if necessary, which is very disturbing to think about. Definitely. Just the amount of, what's interesting to me is to think about the tip of the pyramid,

what kind of individuals might have a broad knowledge of UFO USAPs operating between, operating alongside Air Force, Navy and stuff. Because I imagine the amount of individuals that have knowledge to multiple UFO use apps are probably below 30. Yeah, that was the estimate that I think James Fox gave as well. He heard 22. 22 specifically. 22. And then I think Bob as well back in the day was like 20.

Yeah. So and then you look at Majestic 12, obviously is 12. And so the number's been small. Right. The people who get the full picture. Full picture. Yeah. And not even precedents or elected officials are briefed because they're temporary employees.

The generals, the guys who wear the pinstripe suits there forever. They get to control the programs as long as they want and they get to restrict access as needed. I mean, part of the problem might be the executive branch. There's discussion of, um, Eisenhower in presidential emergency action documents, which created carved out programs to be skirted outside of congressional oversight. I know Eisenhower Cave the famous Beware the Military Industrial Complex speech. He might have created what he despised upon the resignation of his presidency. So we might have him and Forrest, I mean, him and Truman to think for all this.

Because Truman, of course, if you believe in the Majestic Documents, which, of course, Truman did meet with Forrest all the 22nd of September for an unknown meeting in Truman's archive. That's when the Majestic 12 was set up. I got a question for you. Yeah. A bit of a multiple choice question. Let's say you were given an option. You can be told by someone, a very high, you know, level individual with certainty that these crafts exist, aliens exist. and they will go on the record with you

or you can be shown but you can't tell anyone. B. A's already happened. You have guys like David Cres. You didn't think for one second. You've given this to answer some thought. Because high level people, very credible people have come forward and said, hey, these programs exist.

You still got all sorts of people saying that. But I'm talking a three-star general who will go on a pie. with you and be like, I'm risking my whole entire life. I'm risking everything. Here are the documents that show you all the proof you need on paper. Oh, then I might go that route. Versus.

Just me showing it. Because if you have to- You want to go inside one? Absolutely. But option A might lead to option B. It won't ever, I'm telling you. So I won't be able to see one with my own. Never.

Never. Guaranteed never, you will never see a UFO in person. Or, but we get this lowercase disclosure on paper. We have the paper trail. We have all the things that proves that this happened, at least, you know, that we have the craft somewhere. I, then A, because it benefits more people. Yeah. Than just my, as selfish as I want to step inside the craft. If a three star general would have, I worked at this USAP, this place in Oklahoma. Yeah. I worked at this USAP and this place in California. Here's the amount of biologics we had. Hey, here's how they operate. Here's their autopsy

report here's what we found from the craft here's the metal that operated on let's go that route yeah be a hard call to make on the spot though you know if no one knew well initially when you said that i thought i had a way out yeah no no yeah no way out and and hey no one'll know i desperately want to hop in a flux liner and fly i want to hop in a tierr 3b and fly to paris in a quarter of a second yeah i want to go into a dumb so badly and see the miles of carved out rock i want to go on a train between dums, the ones that go so fast, it reminds you of your fear of flying. I want to see bodies on ice under California. I want to see Jake Barber's range. I want to go to these places like so unbelievably bad. So bad. But if there's a, if, if, if any, what's more important is

the actual like advancement of lowercase or uppercase disclosure. If there is a general who ran these programs and has documentation that he would bring forward and say, I'm ready to speak about this. I, I think that would revolutionize everything. And you would give up your pursuit of wanting to in these craft? At that point, yeah, because then I would also be involved in helping bring like enormous earth-shattering disclosure. It's a big sacrifice, Sam. I know, I know. But others would be able to go in, right? Yeah, maybe. If you and Jesse got to go in like a flux liner, but I couldn't get in when there's three seats and you guys get to go for a ride, but I couldn't hop in. I'd be a tough pill to swallow. Yeah, and I'd like to say I wouldn't go in without you,

but you guys would. I wouldn't be too upset. What about you? What's your answer to the question? It's a good question. But for me, I would probably choose B, but not for the same reasons. I don't think that any amount of paperwork or witness testimony will convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced. I think that people can be shown things and still not believe it. You can be shown a body dead or alive and you can be like, wow, some crazy animatronics. And even if they told you, no, it's aliens. And it's the most trustworthy people.

If you're not ready for that type of disclosure, for that type of shift in your ontology, then you won't accept it. And so I think disclosure is a journey. And I think what we're doing here in these podcasts and your videos as well, Jesse's videos and everybody else doing this type of stuff, I think we are the paradigm shift.

We talk about the shifting paradigm In how in my mind it's like this like whoa It shifts it goes boom and everything's on its head And like materialism isn't real And like consciousness is the base of everything And this giant shift That's not how it happens It happens gradually

It's happening now and it happens generationally I like our children and our children's children Will be raised by AI nannies And it'll be totally To them even existing in a world where UFOs aren't real is so foreign, is so far back. So this, it'll happen over time. And who cares, in my opinion, who cares whether or not we believe UFOs are true or not?

It doesn't matter because if they are, they will be a reality. They will be eventually, whether I'm here or not. I think we're here to help people gradually be comfortable accepting this reality by having these conversations, making them fun and entertaining to watch, allowing people in Hollywood to make movies, to comedians to joke about it, philosophers, to think about it, and us to just in our cultural zeit guys to accept this. So for that reason, I would say, well, I can go on a UFO, never talk about it and still do these podcasts and still with high conviction, higher conviction at that point. Give a cheeky wink every now and then. Yeah, who cares? You know what I mean? Because I still feel like I'd be doing the same. thing. You do raise a good point when you talk about kind of baseline consensus of the populace.

I mean, we live in a world where there's no consensus reality even agreed upon. I think there will always be cognitive bias wanting to believe something or not. So I do think you raise a really good point there. My one caveat to take B is that if not only could I go inside the craft, but I could like join, like work inside an ethically run legacy program, like a blue hat, white hat legacy program to like work on craft and stuff, I might, I might take that right. If I could disappear and go just work on some craft, work with Ed, when he work out at the 412th and operate some reverse engineered vehicles, I might, I might have to take that. Do you, you know, I've asked you this before off camera, but for the camera, do you think that

your work in this space will somehow prevent that reality from being. from being real. Well, we talked about that, and it's a fair point, like mentioning names or stuff, that always gives advanced, like, options for intelligence or men in black or agencies

to put the cabosh and clamp on any more leaks about that. I certainly hope I'm doing the opposite of, of bringing forward names, like naming specific people, specific bases. And so whatever programs are run, they go, oh, crap, they're on to this.

But I just hope that the work I do, videos I do will not only allow people to take away valuable information to start adjusting to what I think is our world's reality of UFO legacy program operations. Because I don't, in my videos, I don't start every video with saying, hey, this is why UFOs are real. This is what I operate in my videos off the baseline that the audience understands that UFOs are indeed real and have a non-human source. So I just hope that the people that can affect the change have takeaways. And I hope the viewer has at least one takeaway. Like if you watch the SAIC video and all the viewer took away is that, okay, somebody involved with the Secretary of

Defense, Ellen Lord signed in the corporate portfolio program, which gave defense industrial based contractors, FFRDCs and UARCs, greater access to DOD, SAT portfolio, scientists, personnel, and that that lady then went on to join the board of SAIC. What's the conflicting conflicts there? if these programs really UFO programs really do operate in SAP and they take away just that. That's enough for me. Yeah. But on the on the like policymaker and chain side, if they can get a name and subpoena that person, great. Or if an actual team of protected disclosure recipients or something can go out and visit a location, you know, go to the exact place where the Dougway dumb is supposed to be knock on, well, not a good idea, but somehow gain access to that craft and your underground base and actually affect.

change. That is what that's what I hope for it. What would your position be? All right. You're hired tomorrow. You're read in on legacy. Here's all you need to know. Yes, these craft are from another star system. Indeed, we have some that are our own. These are theirs. You have all the information. And they go, where do you want to work, Sam? Where are you going? Well, I'm not smart enough to work on the craft. So what I would say is I hope that this ethical legacy program wants some sort of community outreach to, to, To rein in the program, get it under some sort of control or properly brief. I'd want to be a briefer.

There's a thin line between community outreach and disinformation. Okay, then I would want to be an industrial security program security person. Oh, so like an unbadged security guy that, uh, so that conducts briefings. That conducts briefings. Okay. So you would be reading in guys like Bob Lazar. Yeah, that would be awesome. Cool.

Love that. That is cool. Because I'm not, I would mess up a component. on the craft and it would crash and burn and we'd lose one of nine in the inventory. I can't have that amount of stress. So let me do the briefings. Let me meet people. It'd be a really lonely and isolated existence though. Yeah, but not unlike making YouTube videos. Right, true. Yeah, true. But imagine, imagine having that sort of information and being at like a restaurant, a steakhouse or something. And you're sitting around people laughing, having a great time, but you know that a thousand feet below you,

two miles below you, there's a big old warehouse that's exploiting non-human bodies, taking peeling tissue off them. How can you live as a normal human having that life, right? I imagine the amount of PTSD that must give you to have a pretty comprehensive view of what's going on must be tremendous. Yeah, that pressure must weigh heavy. And also, do you think that there are people that just live there? Yeah, yeah, yeah, underground basis problem. Yeah, because even like work for the company store type deal. Yeah, even deep underground military bases that are used for continuity of government sites dating all the way back to the Nazis under the Taut organization and Xavier Dorsch. All of these underground facilities have dormitories, self-contained power sources, food supplies. Restaurants.

Yeah. In the Pentagon, there's McDonald's and Pizza Hut. Yeah. There might be a subway at a station, at a dumb station. Who knows? Probably, but there are probably people that live on site. Yeah, that spend their lives there, I'm sure. Never see the sun.

Kind of, you know, that's kind of Manhattan Project type deal where they built this little village. You live here. This is your life now type deal. I mean, I would assume that's probably the easiest way to contain any type of leak. Yeah, and that brings up some disturbing points. Like, are these people ever allowed outside if that's the case? Do they rotate in six-month year shifts on an offer to they just live there permanently and have no real knowledge of an outside world? It's very disturbing to think about like permanent staff.

Yeah, and it becomes a line of. So, okay, if you don't have children, you don't have that collateral. Yeah. But then you're able to live in these bases without leaving because you don't have to go back to your kids. So it's like, yeah. Now would I want to live on an underground base and not be able to leave? No. It wouldn't be worth it to know the technology at that point because at that point are you even human if you don't get to interface with.

Yeah, but how could they let you out with that type of information? Exactly. I don't imagine that stress. You would have to have collateral. Right. Yeah. Imagine being a Donald Kerr, former SAIC chairman. Miter Guy, NRO program B, intelligence, CIA, DS&T.

Like, how do you, if anybody had been briefed into many a program, it would be an individual such as Donald Kerr. How does he walk around probably as a had a family, had maybe grandkids, had friends? How do you live a normal human existence also knowing that, you know, you're operating in knowledge of these programs and some of the sick things that happen? Yeah, that's the other question that it begs is why so few deathbed confession? There are a couple out there, but I feel like there should be more at this point. Well, how many are there that just haven't been told? Because new stuff is popping up all the time, even about Roswell, about cryptographer deathbed confessions, even stuff like Walter Hott's deathbed affidavit talking about him

receiving the press. At the 509th bomb group at Roswell Army Airfield, being told to push out the saucer story that a saucer had been recovered and then to retract it. Like, sometimes these deathbed confessions just completely go unknowled. And how many of these deathbed confessions have been given to family, right? And the family doesn't really know what to do with it because they're not UFO guys. Makes sense. I imagine you could talk to people, a lot of people whose family worked in Northrop or something like that.

And they'll say, yeah, my grandfather was a Northrop engineer. He told me when he died, he did crazy things out in the desert or something like that. I always had an idea for a podcast, a completely ludicrous idea, but called deathbed. And you film a podcast with all these people. and you sign a contract saying this will not be released until your death. Oh, that's smart. And then having, you know, just you don't know when an episode is going to drop, but you hear about someone's death and all of a sudden, oh,

Deathbed just uploaded a new video. This should be interesting. That would be so valuable. Because imagine if you could do that with people like Inman or Paul Kaminsky. It was a dinosaur at this point. And with anyone, like deepest darkest secrets. Yeah. Anyone in and outside of the program.

Like, I mean, it would be just an interesting idea to have. have as a podcast, too, to be like, oh, you know, you're gone. So, you know, burn the boats. That would also be so surreal because let's say you did with like a former president or, you know, a former military general. That would be a posthumous way of hearing from them directly right after their death. Yeah. That'd be really interesting. But also really hard to get them to talk about any of that stuff while they're alive and healthy. Yeah, especially if there's somebody bound by NDAs, right? Like you, they'll promise I won't put it out. Yeah, or show anybody. Like I'll edit it myself, I'll edit it on a closed system that has no access to the internet.

No editing. Just. Yeah, just raw. Goes into, goes into some blockchain somewhere, it just sits there. Because if these guys are bound by NDAs that I've worked on UFO programs, and they're already hesitant to break NDAs or talk about it. Yeah. The amount of trust they would have to have in you to film such a death, or film such a confession to be released upon their death. Be tremendous.

Who, um, whose bed would you like to be beside when it comes time? I can't say their name, but a very dear friend of mine. Okay. You think they're holding on to a lot more than they're letting on? Yep. They've told you this? Yeah. Yeah, they said there's a lot of stuff I can't say.

Mm-hmm. What a burden. I know. And it's clearly taken a toll on him. I mean, there are multiple people I know have worked alongside or in legacy programs that suffer from PTSD. Mm-hmm. Not only from, not just from like seeing, I've seen an alien body,

but just from harboring, feeling so, isolated and harboring knowledge that nobody else has, being worried that what if I'm in my sleep and I blurt this out? Oh, right, yeah. Just intense fear. Like, I'm in an isolated spot. What if, what if there was a world in which I just said, I was at this base doing this? Yeah.

The damage that would face them would be severe. And the constant stress inoculation from those around you telling, hey, you better not speak. You better not speak. You speak you're dead. Yeah. You know, that must weigh heavy too. And especially if they're, you know, worked in security side of the program's constant. if anybody talks about this, the person you brief, you better not brief them one single word out of what they can hear. If you do, you're on the line and you're out of here. Like the constant stress of having to say the right thing at the right time. Yeah. It just must be tremendous. I kind of like you right now. I do not envy those people. Well, because you got to harbor some secrets as well. I mean, I've been told things by people off camera too. I don't repeat them out of respect for those people. But, you know, I don't think at any point, you know, the things that I've been told hold.

you know that much importance maybe they do but again they're in passing their stories but um you however you know you're talking to people who yeah they they could be jailed or worse uh if they if they you know repeat it what they were part of it's it's super fickle right like i can't blame them for not wanting to you know disclose publicly uh just due to some of the repercussions they could face sometimes a lot of the time like we talked about death is the least of the worries yeah it could be it could be threat of pension it could be sure you know threat of of money being taken away you got mark McAngeles, you got Jonathan Waygant who have discussed the IRS coming after them. I've even heard of like putting CP on people's computers and stuff like that, like wild stuff.

Remember I told you about that witness in Greer's archive, 10892 who talked about being on a ARV retrieval team at Nellis, who then was like faced programmable abductions, really weird story. And I contacted this guy and had a really weird experience. He in Greer's archive and their final correspondences, the guy said, I've, been threatened with CP we can no longer communicate. Wow. That'll do it for a lot of people. Absolutely. You don't need to go further than that. There's nothing more viler depraved than that. Yeah. Yeah. And no good human being wants to be associated in the slightest with such a terrible subject. Yeah. And that, it pretty much nullifies everything. Right. Yeah. If you are. Your credibility is just on. If you are convicted on those grounds, then everything's over.

Yeah. This is a, this is an interesting. thought experiment. Chrisie Newton, she was one who, it was actually the first episode of the skiff that she was on to shut out Chrissy, but she said, she asked me, like, who my starting five would be in disclosure, which I think might be a good question for you. Yeah, who's your starting five? Your team, you had to build it. Oh, okay. You're the coach. David Grush. David Grush. Unnamed military guy we just talked about. Unnamed military guy number one. Yeah. Um, Ed from the 412. Okay.

If he could talk, Bobby Ray Inman. Mm-hmm. And fifth. Who would I have fifth? Well, because you got to think of the positions, too, right? Yeah. You need scientists. You need somebody who's more I-C.

You need somebody who maybe is better engineering. Could they have been past or do they have to be alive now? Let's go alive now. Okay. Because if passed, I would choose Vannevar Bush. Oh, sure. I mean, they've already got their starting 12. Yeah.

But, okay, so the fifth. I got unnamed guy, Grush, Bobby Ray Inman, Ed. So Inman would cover the Navy side. Unnamed guy would cover another military branch. Ed would cover Air Force. Grush would cover a lot of the... I see stuff. I see stuff.

Inman would also cover I.C. stuff and Muro stuff. So the fifth would probably be... And it's somebody you have to trust. That's... Okay, if we have to trust them... Well, I mean, it's your team. This is... Yeah, get him and off the plate.

I'm getting in and off the plate. So we're back to three. Back to three. Well, I think about the last two, you tell me yours while I come up with these last two guys. I mean, I like Lizar. I would like to bring Lizar on. And my top five has changed. I think in the first podcast, I had a completely different top five.

I would probably bring Grush on as well to be Lizar Grush. I would probably have Jacques Valet. Ah, yeah. Just for, you know, I don't know. I think he'd be a cool addition. Um, maybe Hal put off. And I say maybe. I haven't met the guy.

Yeah. Um, how I put off. And last one. I think it would have to be, maybe even, maybe even someone like Ross Coltard or something. Somebody, like a go getter journalist, I think, you know, somebody who's just like fearless. Uh, I think that would be cool too. And that would be like a top five. Hey, let's go.

Let's go get the answer. answer's type deal. Okay, I've, I've added somebody to the team. So it's, it's somebody that served on Senate Select Committee for an intelligence. Okay. Who, who worked for the Senate. They don't really want to, want to be named. Okay. So unnamed guy number two? Yes, because that, yes, because that would be a great. And I think for the, the fifth, it'd be unnamed guy number three. These are copats. No, no. You're just like, I just picture, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, where they're all just like blacked out because you haven't unlocked them yet. Because like I, you know, I know it's used as kind of a like a meme on Twitter,

but there is credence to the subject of circular reporting in this field, right? Yeah. And I think I think I think I think David Gresh is removed from that. I think he's done his own thing. But in terms of like the Elizondos, Eric Davis, Hal put off, there seems to be a lot of the same stories bouncing back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. That is true. I do want to largely avoid that.

Get some new blood in the game. Yeah. Yeah. I think Rosco is a great addition because he is tenacious. He is tenacious. He's one of those fearless guys. I met him and, you know, I can appreciate a guy of the good sense of humor. Yeah. I think, you know, he's quite an enlightened person. So he also seems like one of the guys who would go knocking on doors, right? Definitely. Like, not just okay to sit back at his desk and comfortable in a war zone type deal. Now, if we could choose anybody, whether we trust him or not, I would have to add Inman on them. Yeah. But, you know, I'm sure you saw in 2022, Inman went on the Project Unity channel and today. I found all explanations to every UFO that could have possibly exist. existed.

Hmm, yeah. Meanwhile, this guy in 89 was talking about Sumner Shapiro and Everett Heinemann about being the guys to talk to for recovered vehicles. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to put your finger on that stuff, man, to what's true and what isn't and what's disinfo. It does seem like confusion is a big part of the, a big element in the sciop because I think confusion as soon as that's put out there, nobody can go down a direct path to

the truth. You're forced to just have everything in suspension. And I think that that is like the most effective way of running a SOAP is keeping people confused, not necessarily giving them an answer. Right. And poisoning in the water, right? Like if if you're a really credible journalist researcher and you're doing your best to cover on topics and you discuss a witness that isn't being truthful, even though you're trying to do it in the best intentions and it's later found out this person is is lying, disinfo, something like that. Like that shatters your own credibility because this subject is so fickle with, with disinformation. It's at every corner too, you know? I know we talked about this. We talked about this year, but I kind of have to black box people who reach out to me. Yeah.

Because, you know, you know my goal is to expose legacy programs. So if you're doing that. Playing 40 chess. Yeah, yeah. What's going on? Okay. Well, okay. This question might come out of left field.

And, you know, if you don't want to answer, it's fine. But we did talk about it. I'm not sure if, you know, you can talk about this. But do you believe that there is. some type of agency within some type of government that is using time travel in some way. We talked about that. And I know some people have said that's the ultimate secret. And then, of course, there's Barish and the looking glass.

I would not be surprised in the slightest. The only framework I have is a witness that you and I talked about who talked about training on the sphere. Can you go into that without naming the witness, that nameing the witness, Is that naming like any of the projects? Can you go into some detail there? We'll save that. We'll, gotcha.

But the baseline is, of course, he talked about using the sphere as like a, described like a remote viewing tool. But the tool allowed the user to like basically view parallel sort of existences to us. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we talked about that.

I don't know what to do with that testimony. Kind of like Randy Anderson. Yes. So like stuff. Talked about doing bigger things with that and getting. that to the right people. But yeah, that's the only thing I've really come across. But, you know, there's a lot of individuals who talk about this is the ultimate secret. Yeah, like the Adjustment Bureau type deal. Right. I, I, you know, the CIA, the agencies, probably unknown agencies,

they like to do everything from UFOs to making psychic super soldiers. So why would time travel not be a huge item interest for them? Yeah, or at least peering into time. Yeah. You know, at least knowing what's going to happen. Because something we, we talked about previously, And something I talk about quite often with a lot of UFO researchers in this space is that things seem to just slip out of people's hands in the last minute. Whether it's a witness, whether it's a document, whether it's footage, whether it's a meeting, whatever it is. But these things tend to just not happen, whether it's an untimely death, misplaced document, corrupt file, blocked number. They happen over and over and over and over to the point where it's almost. almost comical. It's almost laughable. Like you don't blame Stephen Green Street and you don't blame guys like Mick West for being like, no, this is ludicrous. Because it's always so convenient. So either it is all BS, which I don't think it is, or they've got some way of just knowing and not only knowing, but getting there very quickly. Like you even have this testimony from this Iranian pilot in the 70s. Oh yeah, the Tehran incident. Yeah. Happened at night. Happened at night where there was this dogfighting.

with this UFO. And the next morning in Iran, he had what seemed like American, you know, officers of some type show up and tell him, hey, you're not to talk about this. Who travels that fast? How did you find out? Like, this is, this is incredible. It almost seems like at a baseline minimum that something like remote viewing is used by agencies in order to choose a correct path of of of of action to to cease a witness speaking to be in the right place the right time which is like you said peering into kind of future events and trying to use predictions and course correction to ensure a you know best possible outcome for them yeah you had the timothy e taylor's you know comment that he made two i think it was ryan or chris

blood so it could have been both uh that uh the adjustment bureau that he works for the hammer Yeah, that's so bizarre. The time stuff, I know we discussed that a lot, it still melts my mind. Yeah. Like, I'm still a new initiative into psionic stuff, remote viewing stuff. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how such things can work. You know, when I'm reading about SAIC continuing Stargate programs and making their own words like psychokinesis and so forth, I'm still saying, oh, this is crazy. Yeah. And the time travel stuff and possible like predictive programming and predictive programs is so. mind boggling to me. It is mind bogging, but it's also for me not that much of a stretch. The way that I see it is if you're manipulating gravity, okay, if you think UFOs are flying the way they are because of some type of gravitational manipulation, then you have to, ipso facto, you have to agree that time travel or the manipulation of time is at least possible. Because if you're manipulating space in a way where you're, you know, playing with gravity to that extent, you are affecting time on some level, whether it's only forward time travel, whatever it is. But time is being affected. So for me, it's not that big of a stretch. You know, it's like saying, well, if these crafts are coming in from space, it's safe to assume that some of them are extraterrestrial. You know, people don't even want to go that far. But if you think that there are UFOs doing these, you know, darting, man. maneuvers, then you have to jump to that. And if you're a military, you're going to, that's the, like, you're going to be like, all right, how can we weaponize that? Like, first thing you're going to see.

Well, then what you're saying, you even have guys like Dan Barish who talk about the J-Rod being a human. Yeah. 54,000 years in the future. So the technology is possessed by none or, I guess, former humans or semi-humans to travel back. That is the first thing that the spooks would try and capture. Yeah. And it would definitely be an asset. in controlling this certain timeline that they're trying to either prevent or make happen. Well, because we were talking about it as well, and we were talking about Jesse speaking about it, the show we all enjoy, the Netflix, German original dark, the introduction of the bootstrap paradox,

how a character will travel back in time effect of change, and thus there's always been that loop of change and that introduced like the bootstrap paradox of time travel. Then it gets into some really, really, really interesting kind of existential thoughts. Yeah. It's hard for the brain to conceive and maybe too much for our meager minds to handle, but interesting nonetheless to discuss. Yeah, the subject is so weird because the easiest thing to wrap your head around is non-humans from another plane of existence, star system, star system, parallel universe are flying in and either purposefully leaving their craft or being shot down or crashing via radar interference and that we recover the bodies. That's the easiest thing to wrap your head around in this space. When you put it that way, yeah, definitely. That's a wild thing.

Like, we're dealing with, we're already, like I always say this, we're always dealing with an anomaly, right? In the model, the model, the anomaly is the phenomenon. Well, then you get into the anomaly because you're studying anomalies. And now there are an offshoot of a million other anomalies that you can't ignore because how can you ignore an anomaly if you're looking at an anomaly right? You've got to be open. But that's where you open the floodgates and you're like, where does this weirdness end?

We're time traveling Nazis? Like, what's going in here? The whole Nazi connection is really interesting too because at a very baseline access, we pulled off a knowledge of deep underground military bases from the Nazis and the Todd organization and Xavier Dorsch and Hans Kamler. But then there's probably that the Nazis had their own craft under Hans Kamler who directed a ton of Nazi special weapons projects. And I can't remember the program name, but like under. Mednick Hill, Czechoslovakia. It's a bunch of old Connler documents, possibly hidden pertaining to UFOs and stuff.

And then in the 90s, Low Salamos, and I think it was Sandy or Lawrence Livermore, had a team go back to Mednick Hill to try and recover the Comler's other documents. Oh, wow. So maybe that loops in with the 1933 crash. The Magenta Crash loops in with, you know, project, what was it, high jump and all these other things where they were, where they went to, was it, they went to, um, what's it called? Antarctica, right?

They went to Antarctica to fetch margarine or some key ingredient for margarine was the cover story, sent thousands of people there, whatever it was. It's so intriguing. And where does the weirdness end? And when does it start? You know, Bob Lazar talks about it. I know other people have talked about it, craft found during archaeological digs. Yeah, that actually is a question that I wanted to bring up.

What do you make a, has any testimony that you've uncovered or anyone you've spoken to, is there anything that points to archaeological findings in that sense? Just the 1991 deep sea recovery from DSRV deep submergence rescue vehicle diver Mark. The triangle. Yeah, the triangle that was there for like 40 years from a marine archaeologist. That's as far back as I know. And that would have been 1951. Yeah, it's not that far.

No. It's not what, you know, even Bob Lazare, what he said about his craft potentially being an archaeological will find 10,000 years, you know. I've heard, you know, I've heard rumors, but it's all like public domain stuff. You'll find on like message boards above top secret, Reddit, nothing intangible to chew on, but I am so fascinated by that. Yeah. And the fact that like they don't have rust on them.

I know. There's no coral growing on. And there's nothing. They're just pristine. Yeah. It's crazy. That's like the deep sea recovery craft. This was on the ocean floor for 40 years.

There was just a bit of silt on it that had to be blown away. The thing was perfect. Still retained shape. There was no weathering earth. erosion from waves and water on the actual glyphics marked into the sides. Still perfect. Yeah. Wow.

Fascinating stuff, man. I can talk to you for hours. Honestly, this is so interesting to me. And one thing I do want to eventually talk about with you, and we can get into this at a later date is Aztec. And I think you, myself and Jesse should get together and maybe do like a three-way podcast on Aztec because all three of us are heavily invested at this point. I know that you've been researching Aztec, as of I, as, as, as Jesse has as well.

And so, yeah, there is, you know, a lot there and a lot left to uncover, surprisingly. You know, this was kind of swept away immediately as a hoax, successfully somehow. Multiple times as a hoax. Yeah. And with great success. Resounding success. Yeah. But, you know, hopefully us three will sit down and talk about this.

There's way more than meets the. There clearly is way more than meets the eye. It might be one of the most important retrievals, I think, in history, due to, you know, what they did retrieve, where it went and, you know. And how the operation was conducted around discrediting witnesses. That was, like we said, hyper successful. Discrediting witnesses and even, you know, paperwork, all the paperwork, the paper trail that, that, you know, 200 plus people worked on. Yeah. Yeah. We'll get into that at a later. date because I do want to dive in, but I don't want to jump the gun because Jesse is working on a larger project and so are you. And so I'd love for those projects to be out there. And then we can be a ton of fun.

Yeah, we can get together, maybe even bring in some other experts and talk to them as well. That would be great. But now I want to jump into some questions from the audience. So if you're, cool. Yeah, if you're a member here, want to be part of the membership, it's five bucks a month. You get all sorts of perks, extra videos, yada, yada, but you also get a chance to ask our guest a question. which I'll bring up now. I've got to go turn on the camera back here. Great questions, by the way, from our audience members. Our audience members are absolute geniuses.

They're crazy well informed and probably know a lot more than I do about a lot of this stuff. But I'm always impressed seeing their questions. Oh, that's really cool. What's one UAP claim or whistleblower detail you used to believe but now think was false or misleading by. A Irons. Oh, A. Irons. That's a great question. One of them might be, gosh, I'm trying to think a guy named Derek Hennessy gave all sorts of claims into being at S4 and doing work there. It was in an old Wendell Stevens documentary like the S4 files. This guy claimed to be at S4 that he ran into Cheney at S4, that he interfaced with like a, you know, a female non-human entity down in the basements of S4, but that he also claimed to be like a super, secret Navy SEAL and I actually got together with them like Don Shipley, you know, the Navy SEAL guy

and try to find anything I could about this guy's background and a lot of it seemed to be falsified. So that is that is one. Derek Hennessy. He also went by the name, I think it was Ryan O'Connor, the pseudonym. If you look up Wendell Stevens like S4 files on YouTube, that you will probably find it there. But that's one that I simply could not find any corroborating evidence on. Very cool. I'm trying to think if there's one more off the top of my head.

There was one that I found actually, well, that I found that this was pointed out to me by Scott Ramsey on the 2017 MJ12 leak. Yes, yes. That is nonsense. That basically retells the story of Steinman. Yeah. And that this. Yeah, there's a paragraph in there that was literally taken from Steinman's book. And in that paragraph, Steinman had made a mistake.

in saying where the crash happened. He's like, oh, it happened between here, here, here and here, and he got one of those things wrong. So they actually plagiarized that. Yep. And that's supposedly an MJ12 leak. That came out in 2017. Very few people know about that.

I've wanted to get in contact with the woman who supposedly said that, you know, it was leaked to her from a trusted source. Yeah. But yes, I agree with you that that document is nonsense. Yeah, complete nonsense. Even the, I debated doing a read-through of the, because we do a lot of read-throughs with, like, entity interactions. and there is like the EBE who speaks,

but it reads like an Abbott and Costello bit. Like it's so cheeky and strange. And all the mention of Tesla and stuff. Yeah. And Isle of Pines, which again, like some of that stuff could be true as well. You know,

if you were making some disinformation stuff and putting it out there to discredit Aztec, which I think is a valid thing to do if you're them, to want to discredit it even further, you would make it so ludicrous and out there that people would find it and discredit it. But maybe. you'll throw in some truth there so that people just throw that out to throw the baby out with

the bathwater. And especially with the work of the Ramsies reigniting some interest in the case, hey, look, Aztecs in the majestic documents can't be true, nonsense. But that majestic document is terrible. It's like a DIA document and it reads like the Project Aquarius document. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little too far fetched.

Yeah. That's a great question. That's a great question. Great question. Stan B. It's convincing clue. you've uncovered that there's actually an NHI, Stambi.

Regarding NIH specifically. Yeah. And clue could just be like, oh, interesting fact. Hmm. That's a good question too. Other than like a witness telling you.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to think, like a public domain clue. Is there something that isn't public domain that? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, public domain. Let me think, because that's actually, it could be crash retrievals, just like we talked about with the Aztec case. I put a lot of stock into that case in the description of non-humans. But also, I wouldn't say direct clue, but piecing together the work of Battelle Memorial Institute in UFO crash retrievals. And then their work in the actual like CBR&E, chemical biological, radiological nuclear work for various FFRDCs. at like Fort Dietrich, Maryland and so forth.

So I think like a network of clues is probably more concise for me in terms of non-human. But also like we talked about Robert Sarbacher talking about the mantises as well. I put a ton of credence into that. And he directly states these are non-he, he doesn't say non-human, but mantises. And then Bob Eshler as well, who talked to Bobby Ray Inman in an interview he did following his 89 phone call. He says the exact phrase non-human intelligence too. So that's another one. That's right.

I'd say Aztec. I would say Betel. I would say Bob Eshler and then I would say Sarbacher are probably the biggest one, especially Sarbocker. If the audience isn't familiar with Robert Sarbacher, please go read a bit more about him. You could find almost nothing about him online. I would also add to that Bob Lazare, you know, the fact that they had tiny little seats on this craft. Yeah.

I mean, even not, you know, necessarily maybe even seeing the, the NHI, but just having little seats or their little butts. these guys little butts here sitting down. I think for me that's like a big clue that, hey, something else is. Yeah, exactly. Unless they're actual children piloting these human children, which I doubt, you know. Okay. Let's get another one here. This is cool.

Great question by Gina. Intrigues you the most. Nazis and UFOs. Mm. 100%. I've done Nazis and Dums. I've done the Magenta Crash, but Nazi actual efforts to, uh,

study non-human technology. Like DiGlocha. Do you find a connection between Degluca and the Keksper? In terms of shape and morphology, absolutely. Yeah, shape morphology and even symbols. Yeah, it seems like.

Because it looks like there was a lot of at least a lot of Nazi iconography. Yeah. Swastikas, other symbols. And of course, you'd expect volunteer firemen at Kekspur to recognize swastika. So maybe it was, of course, Nazis were into occult practices. This could have been some sort of Sanskrit, kind of archaic writing system that was used to

decorate such a device. Yeah, sure. But that's a good question. I'm trying to think what else, because my mind immediately goes to, oh, Zodiac. Zodiac is covered by Dolan and Sedge Masters. That's another one. But as far as topic, gosh, I would have to say the Nazis. Is there anything regarding the moon that intrigues you?

Oh, absolutely, like a non-human presence on the moon. But I don't know where to begin with that research. Yeah, because it also ties into Nazis, perhaps, and it ties into remote viewing. It ties into the moon landing. It ties into, like, all these, like, strange. And then stories of Apollo astronauts filming UFOs are being tailed by UFOs. There's a lot there. I just don't know how to dive into that.

Have you ever seen the Simkinson NASA Archive photo? Uh-uh. Really? Oh, is that on the moon, the triangular light? No. This is the Gemini 11 flight that took a picture of a UFO. and they pulled it, they retracted it. No, I don't think so.

Dude, wait here. It was going to blow your mind if you haven't seen this. I would love to. I bought the book. It's massive and it's all about this one photo. I don't think I've heard of this at all. The whole book is about one photo? Unclassified story of the...

That's the photo there. This is the photo. I thought that had to be like a rendering because that's a definitive saucer with a top cap, like sports model. Yeah. What does he... This is all. about the program. What the?

All about like the flight. But then at the end, he gets into like the actual, um, the actual photo. And, and, and there's like, you know, ran it through a bunch of different tests and it has all the test results here. But even like down to the pixels. I have never heard of this photo. It's a wild photo, dude. What the heck? Yeah, look.

And this was taken by Gemini 11. Yep. and that was the other paper that they released, but you can find certain things that like leaked through on the copy that tie into the initial photo. So it is one of those really, really wild ones. This was actually,

hold on. Yeah, there's like a full page photo here somewhere that you can see. But look at it. Whoa, that's, yeah, that's not like a thermal blanket, like a lot of space trash. Like UFO photos possibly the Black Knight satellite are. It's like one of the best UFO photos I've ever seen. I don't know how I've never heard of this.

Have any of the astronauts spoken on or given testimony about the image? You know what? I don't think so, but I haven't read this entire thing. I picked it up. I was, you know, always meant to read through it. I find myself like thumbing through it and looking at certain things, but I don't know enough about it. But the photo itself intrigued me. As you can tell, like, I mean, it's an impressive photo.

That's wicked cool. When did this book come out? Oh, there's transcript? Too long ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, there's like, there's like other documentation. Whoa. Yeah, there's, I mean, it goes into great, great, great detail about not only the program, but the photo.

And, and then some, like, look at this. Whoa. Spectronomy and sort of like the color levels. It's showing that it was never tampered with that that photo is not photo shopped or anything. Like that is, yeah. And then, yeah, so. I have never heard of this. Pretty cool, right?

That is incredible. Maybe something for you to dive in on eventually. Here's a full pager here. Wow. That's what the photo would look like. That's a saucer all right. It even looks like there's some sort of patternality to the little, I don't know if it's lights or kind of like a... Port-hole or something.

Or a comb. It looks like, yeah. There's a famous picture that was out on the internet. that had like a similarity to that. It was like in a cloud. Maybe you've seen that one before. You ever see that one? Yeah, I have seen that.

Yeah. Very similar. That is. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know, maybe something to look into eventually. But there you go. Everybody was on the program. That's neat.

Pretty neat, right? No, that's, I mean, that just goes to show the, like, the amount of information and level of knowledge in this subject. Yeah. I've never heard of this. Yeah, cool. Simkinson, NASA, R. Archived UFO by Ed Wilson.

It is not super readily available. This thing costs me a couple hundred bucks. Just like Diamond's book. Yeah, exactly. It's hard to find. Not everywhere. All right, we got one more question. And this is actually from my buddy Luigi.

Oh, nice. Luigi Ventatelli, the director and creator of Balbazar, S4, the Bobazar story. Wait, is this the one? What's this one? Which one did it put up? Have you ever come across anyone who's mentioned in the installation near Papuos Dry Lake. Yes, Luigi, two people, two people independent from Bob who have told me they have been to S4. One such person, this was like 2009 to 2013, they were in the U.S. Army. They said they went to a site just south of Groom Lake near Pappoose Lake, S4. But he said there's also like other places called S4 as like a storage depot and other installations like Tonaput range. But there was an auxiliary site just south of Groom Lake. He drove there. He didn't go to any of the underground floors or see any UFO stuff, but he did comment on the red and blue lines that told you where somebody could walk and where another person could go.

That's from Dan Burrish. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's not something. I don't think that's something Bob came across. And this was, what, years approximately in the 90s? No, this was between 2009 and 2013. Right. So that's something that might have come after Bob's time.

Yeah. And this isn't a guy who's like really, he's not like a big UFO head. Right. He's had some weird experiences. He's the same guy that was on the flight line at Area 51 when he saw the triangle go up. Oh, wow. But yes, he talked about that. Another person said they had been to S4.

They didn't see Kraft there, but they confirmed, like, the hangers built into the mountain. They confirmed the hangers. They said there were hangers built into the mountain. They didn't say how many, but they said there were hangers disguised as mountainside. Whoa. I don't think anyone is ever... you know, ever said, even Dan Burch. Like, that's incredible.

So, yeah, that at least, I, even completely independent from Bob, I, I absolutely think S-4 is a real installation, like the infamous site for near Papoose. Yeah. Reason this guy won't come out is just NDAs? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. NDAs and like threats and all that, all that sort of stuff.

But you said two people. Yeah. Who's the second person? The second guy was the one who talked about the hangers. Oh, okay. So you had a guy talk about hangers. the guy talk about the blue lines. So the guy with the hangers, I don't know if he saw non-human technology there.

If he could, that would be a, he wouldn't violate the security oath like that by talking about what is held in the installation. He just said, he's been to such a site. Yeah. There's like the rumors of hangers are true. The other guy was there in official capacity, nothing non-human. I think it was like inventory supply or something like that. He never went underground.

He was just there on base level. He knew there was an under- No, he never saw the underground. Okay. He wasn't told either. Yeah. He was in and he was out, but he commented on red and blue lines. Red and blue lines, like Dan Burr said.

Yeah. And for those listening, like, you go past a red line, you're shot. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. And neither of them gave any comment to any, like, cheeky posters in there. I don't know if they saw it. If there were cheeky posters or kind of iconography, I'd wager that stuff was taken down. After Bob.

Mm-hmm. I think a lot of precautions were made after Bob. I mean, Bob, in my opinion, was the biggest, I mean, it was the biggest mistake for a lot of those people. Like, I mean, to let Bob, you know, say what he said and let him out with that. Like, I mean, they must have tightened down incredibly after that. And even if you completely remove Bob, there's some lines of thought that things did indeed have to be kind of bootstrapped up and made more professional. The reorganization of Sapphock in 93 and 94. but also in 1992,

Dick Cheney visited a ton of different Air Force bases and basically to kind of check on programs and stuff. And, you know, maybe he also went to Area 51 Groom Lake and maybe went to site four as well. Because I know that there's been discussion that he's kind of a figurehead

at the top of the UFO pyramid. He seems like a no-nonsense type of guy. Maybe he didn't really like... Is he mean Cheney was Majestic? Yeah, if Majestic hasn't morphed into something new. Yeah. Which I don't know. As far as the majestic, I put the vast majority of the Koreans into the Eisenhower briefing document.

Yeah. And the SOM, I am really interested. I don't have the same level of confidence as I do EBD. Hmm. Well, truly, truly fascinating UAP Gerb. I appreciate that. That is your real name. This has been so enlightening.

And just as I said at the top, this was exactly like drinking water out of the firehouse in the best possible way. in the best possible way. Once I start talking about something, like, I can't stop because it's the same thing I do with the videos, right? Like if I- There's so many connections. Yeah, exactly. If I say like, oh, Edwards Air Force Base, okay, then you got to talk about MRTFBs, then you got to talk about like Air Force MRTFBs, then how China Lake has MRTFBs,

but then how China Lake is actually a deep underground cavity, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. So all sorts of little different rabbit holes, you got to go down and then try and come back from, which is always the hardest part to re-center your mind. If anyone's a rabbit in this field, it's you. Thank you, sir. Yeah, I think hats off to what you're doing. I wish you lots of continued success and growth in your channel, in your efforts and endeavors, bringing disclosure to the masses.

And, you know, I wish you all the luck in the world when it comes to your travels and your safety. You're someone who I look up to in terms of information. and just research. I think it's commendable what you're doing. And I think you're really, really doing humanity of service, whether they know it or not. But I want you to know that I appreciate it very much. Well, it's been an honor, Chris.

And, you know, like I told you, you have shown unrivaled respect and hospitality. So I appreciate it so much, man. Thanks, dude. Thank you.