AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - Skinwalker Ranch Biologist Breaks Silence - Ben Woodruff | DEBRIEFED ep. 90

Episode Date: May 29, 2026

https://area52.shop/https://itsprobablynothing.com/Ben Woodruff (Skinwalker Ranch biologist, paleontologist & falconer) drops his most detailed interview yet about the bizarre phenomena at Skinwalker Ranch.From non-decomposing animals that stay floppy for years, a falcon vanishing into a mesa portal and reappearing a mile away, UFOs killing cattle on camera, a 90% unknown "dire wolf" species, black jaguars eating coyotes, phones being remotely hacked, and a ranch that behaves like it’s conscious — this is one of the wildest Skinwalker Ranch deep dives available.Ben also discusses the government’s continued interest, the "bubble/dome" anomaly, the Path of the Skinwalker, indigenous knowledge, and why he’s now 500% convinced something extraordinary is happening.

You had to sign some NDAs about a lot of this information? Yes. Some of the things I can loosely talk about, like, seeing a UFO on the ranch is commonplace. You alluded to government involvement, limited government involvement, or at least interest still in the ranch. Have you witnessed any of that? They told me when I started, they said, hey, just be aware it's possible that, you know, you might have the government listening to your phone calls or checking your emails. So just be careful what you say.

We get our phones hacked while we're on the ranch. You'll just be sitting there and all of a sudden something opens up your phone as like going through everything. No way. Oh, yeah. That happens to everybody on the ranch. But I do also think that some of the big stuff is held back on a more governmental level. You think there's like national security implications? Yeah, absolutely.

Really? Absolutely. So you're saying that the phenomenon is obviously aware on some conscious level. It behaves that. of what your intention is. And it knows ahead of time. On daylight cameras, a UFO shows up. There's a cow in the shade underneath and buckles and dies.

UFO goes away. They brought me in, I don't know, a few weeks a month later. And that thing had contorted in what we call the dinosaur death post. Normally a mammal, when they die, they go into the fetal position. We found a skunk, and it looked like an attack as an hermey skunk. We documented it there for three years. It was untouched. It didn't rot. It didn't disintegrate. For three years?

Three years. Is that, is that? That's impossible. That's impossible. From your own personal knowledge and your own personal speculation, what's in the Mesa? How would you like to win an all-inclusive trip to one of my live shows? Well, that's exactly what I'm offering. For the next seven days, every $50 purchase at Area 52. Dot shop gives you one chance for you in a friend to be flown out to the It's Probably Nothing live show of your

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because our first shows are coming up very soon. You can go to It's Probably Nothing.com for those. Go to area 52.com for your chance to win an awesome trip hanging out with this guy. Welcome Ben Woodruff. So Ben, you've been part of the sort of Skinwalker legacy as far as the television show goes, but also behind the scenes doing a lot of the biological testing. Yes. Namely, experiments with birds as well and just looking at the land.

I mean, we're going to talk about so many different facets of this fascinating geographical area that's been enigmatic to say the least. And that I think so many people are really invested in partially, I think mainly due to the television series, but also the books, the lore, the stories, the hitchhiker of things. the cattle mutilations, the tie to Bob Bigelow, the, you know, there's so much history here. This is a mecca or at least another sort of Bermuda triangle in the UFO sphere. So I want to thank you for coming all the way down from Utah today and welcome. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be out.

Great. I can't wait to get into some of this stuff. I've been biting my tongue. We went out for breakfast this morning and I was, you know, kind of like, I'm pulling my punches. I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to get through all the things that I wanted to ask you. But for viewers at home that might be sort of introduced to this topic perhaps a little more recently, can you give us a general sort of gestalt on what is Skinwalker Ranch? So I guess, oh, you would say it's an area of high strangeness, but that's a pretty nebulous term. So it has a history going back thousands of years, the native people in the land there, the Native American tribes.

going way back, have a rich history of very anomalous things from portals opening up to, you know, skin walkers themselves. The term skinwalker is actually a Navajo term, Dene, the Navajo tribe, the Dene tribe. And it is kind of come to evolve to be a broader thing, anything weird, anything strange, anything anomalous, say, oh, it's a skinwalker. But that's not the origins of it. But the ranch itself has had since ancient times, it's had strange things. It's had prehistoric animals appearing, which doesn't, I'm just reporting what's been said.

It's had, you know, UFOs and well documented, at least since the 1990s. But people even much earlier going back, all kinds of strange things, you know, like I said, portals opening up. Poltergeist activity, ultrageist, ghost. Mutilations. Cattle mutilations. And beings, people seeing beings and hearing voices, speaking many different ways. languages. So a wide range of things. And then the government got involved in the 90s and has really been involved never since. They're not officially now, but they still are.

Well, so involved, they were involved initially with Nids or, you know, the scientists that were there looking at it, namely, you know, you had Bob Bigelow, you had Hal put off, you had a lot of these sort of heavy hitters in this area looking at this place, buying the farm, first of all, or the property off of the family who had it there previously, who had all these anomalous things happened to them. And then out of interest, you know, Bob Bigelow, I think was funded for this or. or partially funded. Partially funded? Yeah, partially funded. There was some, Senator Harry Reid, got some funding for it. And so it was researched, you know, by the government, government contracted. And then eventually they took over completely. The Sherman's were still living on the ranch at first. And eventually the government completely took over through the 90s and early 2000s. And there's a lot of things that, you know, people who were on those early teams, they allude to. But I think there's a lot that we, the current team, have. not been told. So, and, but all the information back then, it was all analog. It was like our ability to capture data has exponentially grown since. And so what we're doing now, I think far exceeds what was done back then. I don't know because we don't have all that data. But from the sound of it, you know, I mean, if you're just having VHS that you're recording things with compared to now, you know, where we have, you know, everything from mass spectrometers to, you know, LiDAR that we can shoot through things and drones. I mean, you know, digital footage. It's incredible what we're capturing now.

Do you think that there is some merit to capturing it in an analog way, though? Because it seems like the phenomenon itself messes with things that are digital. I think it does, but I hate saying this, but I have to say it. The ranch operates as if it is self-aware, as if it has a consciousness. this. Maybe it does. Even if it doesn't, it operates that way. Kind of like genetics. Genes operate as though we say, oh, this is the genetic motivation. Well, genes, as far as we know, don't have a motivation, but they operate in a way that they do. So we phrase it, the ranch, whether it's actually self-aware or not, it operates as though it does. And what I see is that during the Bigelow era, it was kind of given a little friction, and then it kind of died down.

And then during this new era, it gave friction at first. And we gave friction back. And some rough things happened in the beginning. And then it was kind of like, okay, all right, fine. I'm going to teach you. It's like the phenomenon is like, I'm going to teach you. I'm going to mess with your digital devices, but learn from that and then do a better experiment. It's almost like it's a trickster spirit, like a trickster energy, but it's trying to teach you and move the ball forward.

It's almost like you're, you idiots are just going to keep coming back. All right. Okay. I'm going to teach you something. So to, you know, to any skeptical person out there, this sounds like a lot of woo-woo stuff. Like this initially, when you hear this stuff coming from someone like yourself, you know, you have a clear history in studying biology and paleontology and all this stuff to hear someone like you of your caliber say, oh, but there's like a trickster energy. That does sound a little woo to people out there. what's an example that you can give that's like a concrete like, oh, here's just one as many that'll help you understand what I'm trying to say.

As far as some, the ranch seems to give you what you want. If you come in there with a lot of bravado, people get attacked. People collapse. People fall over. You know, people get their heart attacked. People get their mind attacked. But if you come in and just kind of have an attitude of like I'd like to learn. then it seems the phenomenon will show you what your field of science wants.

Now, I understand you could say the opposite. You could say, well, that's your field of science. So, of course, you're going to notice those kind of things. I'm aware of that, but even factoring that in, it seems to show you that. So it's like amplifying what's already in your mind kind of thing? Like, it's aware, and it will show you. It will bring you. Like, for me, dead stuff.

Anytime I'm going to come on the ranch, dead animals are going to give you so much information. and, you know, we even had one time where the producer of the show and I walked out when I just showed up and there was two dead quail sitting right in front of us. And we were both laugh. We start laughing. We're like, okay, Ben showed up. Here's dead quail. Both of them, the beaks open up like this, right?

Both of them had the front, the upper mandible bashed in, but the lower mandible was still in place, which if they ran into something, those would both be broken. They were dead. They sat on the ground all week. summer heat, they were two feet away. I've got footage of this, two feet away from a fire ant hill, the fire ants wouldn't touch it. And they stayed floppy for that whole week.

So we ended up freezing them. And so it's like, well, Ben's here. Here's dead animals. That's what you always want. Here's some fresh dead animals for you. You know, there's something deeply ironic about spending all this time talking about surveillance and data leaks and black projects and cryptid apps. And then carrying around a phone that's connected to a carrier.

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You can also download the Cape app on Apple App Store, Google Play, and is now available on the Accrescent Store, too. Thank you to Cape for sponsoring this video. All right, let's talk about Dead Animals since we're going here, because this is pretty fascinating. Obviously, there are plenty thousands, thousands upon thousands. I would probably even estimate tens of thousands of cases of, like, cattle mutilation across North America. It's a problem.

for a lot of farmers in Canada as well. And especially, you know, in these sort of local or these sort of isolated areas, there seems to be a lot of this happening. Not strictly cattle. It sometimes can, you know, go into horses or like other, you know, mammals. But Skinwalker Ranch is known primarily for the cattle mutilations. Yeah. When we're talking about cattle mutilations.

to anyone that's out there. There's obviously some anomalous things that happened to the animal that caused, you know, sort of concern, which is the unexplained boring of, you know, its genitals or the lack of blood or the lack of struggle even. But then, like you said, just the sort of lack of rigormortis or the way that they decompose and the way that animals are sort of uninterested. in a carcass, which is obviously very interesting to animals normally. Yeah. What out of all of those symptoms, what have you observed there? Have you seen all of these things firsthand?

Yes. My first time, so I'll talk about the small stuff and then the cattle mean. Great. Yeah. So my first day coming on the ranch, we pull up and at the gate, I look over and there's a dead rabbit sitting there. And I thought, okay. And in those days, I was nervous to take photos and document because I was very cautious

about things and now I film everything. So I snapped a few pictures and every day coming back, it was still there and we checked it floppy, no ants, no gastrointestinal swelling, you know, no bloating, no scavengers bothered it, no ants, no flies, nothing. It didn't smell. And I was there, I don't know, like three, four, five days that week, that first week. And then the last day I went, it was gone and it was all sand and irrit, no tracks, nothing, nothing in scavenging.

It was just gone. That same first week, we found a skunk, and it looked like a taxidermy skunk. It looked like it was happy. It was just like, this dead skunk. We documented it there for three years. It was untouched. It didn't rot. It didn't disintegrate.

It smelled a little bit like a skunk, but no rot stink. And then finally, for three years? Three years. And so finally, Eric Bard and I, is that? Is that? That's impossible. That's impossible. You have decomposers.

When you die, you have internal bacteria that start. starts to, you're like, oh, I'm not getting a food source anymore. So it starts to eat your stomach lining, off gassing, and that's where you get the bloating. But you also have external decomposers that start to break you down. None of that happened. And so Eric Bard and I said, well, it's been three years. Let's film a little blurb on it. So him and I, just on his phone, we filmed a thing of it and turned it over and examined it.

The next day we came out, it was gone. And in its place was a perfectly decomposed, like, arm of like, probably like a prairie dog, like a large, large rodent, not a skunk. And a chunk of that skunk fur was wedged up on the side of the old ruins of the homestead two there, almost like it's like, oh, you think I can't decompose? Blam, here's a decomposed hand. And here's a little, you know, and nobody else, you can't get on the ranch. You can't just drive on.

We were the only ones there. It was just Eric and I. So did Eric in the middle of the night go and get rid of the skunk and put a prairie dog laying there and put wedge this thing up there. So what we found is that small animals, don't decompose. Rig and mortis doesn't set in. They never bloat.

If they're in the water, they will. But if they're on land, they don't. They just stay floppy. And this is all animals without exception, all small animals, without exception. Birds, I've, birds and mammals and one frog. We've had weird things with a fish, too, which that's, that's, that's, that's separate issue too. But, but, but yeah, so, so small animals, if you're like coyote size,

or smaller. If you die on the ranch, you don't decompose. We've had some things like we had a bird called an orio. And they brought me this orio. And it was the legs, you got skin and scales on the legs, right? And when we did a necropsy, open it up, there was just gaps. And I'll send you a picture, a drawing I did. And it was just like bone empty, bone empty, bone empty down the whole leg. It was just chunks missing. That bird would not be alive if that was the case and there were just these gaps of marrow yeah just like no no tendon muscle or bone and then tendon muscle and bone no tendon muscle oh everything everything but the leg except for the skin yeah the skin and the scales on the outside were there and so we open it up and it's like that's impossible

and no decomposer would do that no dermestid beetles wouldn't do that you know because tendon and bone you know it doesn't make sense so i that one was that one messed me up so another one we found on the ranch a starling. And I think this was on the TV show. And this starling was squishy and stay that way for like what's a starling? It's a bird. It's a little bird. It's, it's, um, it's in the minor family. They're from Europe. People brought them over. Okay. And, you know, they're about the size like a, you know, rob and bigger than a sparrow. But it was squishy to the touch. Stay that way forever. So I took it off the ranch. Once it was off the ranch, it started to decompose. And the skull looked like it had blown up from the

inside. And Eric pointed that out. It's like there looks like some sort of sort of energetic thing that popped out. Well, in the skull, I was, it started to smell at home, never did on the ranch. So is it because it's on the ranch that doesn't decompose? Well, all these weird bubbles started to form. It looked like a metallic bubble and they would, it was almost like a, yeah, like a bubble, which start to, and I got tweezers and I'm like, oh, I'm going to grab this. Pop, it pops, no residue. And I'm like, oh, that's strange. Another one forms. And they kept forming.

And finally, I'm like, every time this is popping, nobody's going to believe me. So I snapped a few photos. And I'll show you some photos of that too. But it's like, I don't know what that stuff was. But it didn't happen until this dead bird was taken off the ranch. But before that, even when it was fresh off the ranch, squishy and floppy. It's insane. That's, I mean, that's definitely insane.

I want to just interject with something that maybe I should have said at the beginning, but there, you know, when you reached out to me, you were kind of pretty happy that you were able to talk about some of these things because previously there had been, you had to sign some NDAs about a lot of this information. Yes. Due to the nature of because they might be using it in future seasons or, you know, it's proprietary, you know, information that you were hiring. And you were, but is there, so now that you're released of this partially released of some of that information, there is still information that you can't talk about. Absolutely. Is that information that you can't talk about related to just like breakthrough findings in science and or is it related to more like proprietary info or is it related to security? It's more of security and things that we've witnessed. the things that I've gotten permission to talk about,

there's a lot that I can't talk about in my fields. That you can't? Cannot. Okay. And there's a lot that I cannot that are in other people's fields who have been on the ranch that we've witnessed. And even just some of the things, like some of the things I can loosely talk about,

like seeing a UFO on the ranch is commonplace. I mean, I've got footage that one day, and I did ask Brandon if I could talk about this one, but we were filming at the end of the day and we had been in the river. Everybody was exhausted. I mean, it was like a, million degrees all day, humid, and we were just all dead. It was the middle of the night. And we all have to

drive like a half an hour to get back into town. And I look over, I'm like, you guys, there's the UFO. And I'm talking to the film crew. Do you guys want to film this? What do you mean by UFO? Like it came over, a big, bright orb, not distant, like big enough, way bigger than a star or the space station or something bigger than that. And it came over and from the west, from the west. and it came over and it was kind of like hovering, you know, being in place moving. And I'm like, you guys, you want to film that? And they're like, no, we're just, I'm like, you know, I mean, UFO. And they're like, yeah, it's okay.

So I grabbed a couple shots and grabbed a little footage of it. It's like it's that commonplace on the ranch to have something come over. And so usually they only document it. And I mean, it's always documented. Like there's cameras 24-7. But as far as the boots on the ground, if it's not part of an experiment, it might not get the attention it deserves. So you're saying that there's like this whole catalog of anomalous UAP footage that they're not releasing? It just hasn't been gone through.

Hasn't been gone through? Yeah. Okay. And so now they have like the Skinwalker Ranch Insiders where people can help, you know, can sign up and can help go through some of the footage real time, which has been kind of nice because people will find stuff and then they'll bring it up to some of us on the team and say, what do you? think about this. So because there's just so much going on. You alluded to government involvement, limited government involvement, or at least interest still in the ranch. Have you, have you witnessed any of that? They told me when I first started, they said, hey, officially the government isn't officially involved, but they are still interested both behind the scenes and in front of the scenes. And, you know,

Travis Taylor was on the UAP task force. And it's like, and he even reported some of the anomalies back to the government broke an NDA because of this might be a national security issue. So, but they told me when I started, they said, hey, just be aware, it's possible that, you know, you might have the government listening to your phone calls or check or checking your emails. So just be careful what you say, you know, follow your NDAs that you've signed. So they were casual about it. That wasn't like a threat or a warning when they said, you know, and we've seen on the ranch.

I mean, the government will fly over. The government has done grids we've seen with airplanes over the ranch. Helicopters too. Helicopters coming in, yeah. And Black Hawk helicopters coming in and then even when you have congressmen in Utah trying to follow up on it, can't get direct answers. It's like, you should get direct answer about that. Do you think Brandon is involved at that level? Like, I mean, obviously he, you know, he owns the place. He's got a lot of money. Do you think someone like him would be regularly debriefing some faction of the government? He tells him he is, he, Brandon is the coolest guy on Earth. He is so, he is such an awesome guy and he's sincere. He is, he's, he's intelligent and he works his butt off more than anybody. I know he's actually passionate about real estate, like legitimately so.

Yeah, he's a mogul in that field. And he, and he loves it. It's not about money. He loves doing that. And so this is his side thing that it's like, I want answers. And he really wants answers. And so he has really done a lot of networking, getting certain government officials together. I'm like, look, hey, we need to be paying attention to this.

We need to be addressing. this. So he's brief people. I know he has. And he's been instrumental in trying to move this conversation forward, which I have the maddest respect for. I mean, that was at the potential risk of his career, you know, or more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, do you think, though, that like the involvement of the government is a net positive or a net negative? Because it depends, you know, there are two sides to this. Some parts of the government seem like they can't wait to talk about it. But then you hear about the seedy underside that kind of covers everything up. Yeah. Do you see a concern there? I had there might be, I mean, we get our phones hacked while

we're on the ranch. You'll just be sitting there in all of a sudden something opens up your phone is like going through everything. No way. Oh yeah. That happens to everybody on the ranch. And some people, it ruins their phones. I've had my phone hacked twice. I've never. had it. But is that the phenomenon or is that our government? Is that another government? I don't know. We've had audio things happen where we're just sitting there and all of a sudden you hear like a double echo coming back over all around the room and it's like, it's like, okay, well, clearly somebody's tapping in and recording. Maybe it's like the NSA kind of thing. I don't know. And maybe it's the phenomenon doing it. I don't know that. But I think the government, I don't know for sure. This is

speculation. I get the impression that, you know, the government did a lot of work in the 90s, and now that Brandon's here and trying to do work and is answering to the government and getting the government involved. I think the government's like, well, hey, let's just sort of the sidelines let them do the work. Sure, yeah, just costing us nothing. Yeah, good point. Okay, let's get back to some of the stuff you are allowed to talk about. Okay. And some of these more bizarre cases involving mammal. So we've gone through the foul. We've gone through the rabbit. What's, what's next on this chain? So cattle, the cattle are, so cattle mutilations. Well, before we get to cattle, like, we're working our way up. All right. There was a wolf. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that, well, this involves a cow too.

Okay. So, so on daylight cameras, a UFO on, on what we call. the path of the skin walker, this north, south running line where all these anomalous things always happen along this fence line. UFO shows up. There's a cow in the shade underneath and buckles and dies. UFO goes away. This season one of the TV show, it's like, why aren't we talking about this all the time? They brought me in, I don't know, a few weeks, a month later, and that thing had contorted in what we call the dinosaur death post. Normally a mammal, when they die, they go into the fetal position. You know, the tendons dry out. out this way. This thing went, ah, spiraled all crazy. Um, so they brought me out and I found that something

had bit with its tooth through one of the ribs. And I took that rib and measured it. And it matched up to either a dire wolf or a jaguar. I checked a whole bunch of teeth. Now it doesn't mean that's what it is, but I just said, okay, it doesn't match a regular wolf doesn't match a coyote doesn't make bigger than a regular wolf. Bigger than regular wolf. And I took a rib and, and, went and tested through and took the next rib over and tested like bite force and even with a black bear tooth and even that it shattered. So whatever it was had a lot of power because normally carnivores, if they're going to bite a rib, they use their molars and they bite off a side to get the marrow and they'll chom, chom, chom. They don't use front canines. That's going to break them.

So it bits clean through, poked it right through, made a concoital fracture. And so from that, we had this thought, oh, you know, probably not a dire wolf, but okay. But then people, even from the Sherman era in the 90s, claimed that they had seen these big giant wolves and that they had attacked things and, you know, had attacked the dogs on the ranch and stuff. That was the original sort of depiction of a skin walker itself was like this half man, half wolf type. Yeah, like shapeshifter kind of thing. Yeah, this big giant wolves. And on the ranch, the same thing. they were telling me, like in the 90s, there was more of, there was a couple stories of kind of

dinosaur-like things like Velociraptor type things that people said, but there was a lot more of mammals. And they said, oh, yeah, there's like a, there's a dino beaver. They said they saw, and they were laughing about it. I'm like, well, what do you mean? Like a beaver like, you know, like 300 pounds. And I said, well, we had those here during the ice age 10,000 years ago. And I had brought out a skull and showed them. I'm like, here it is. It's castoroidis. This is giant. Like, wait, that was actually real? It's like, yes. So the question, so a lot of these things that people are seeing seem to be ice age animals, which is the time right before us, we're still coming out of the ice age. So it's like, okay, well, did you see, you know, is there a portal opening up

that's letting these things through? So with the wolf, they were going along the river doing a totally different experiment and they found this, it's painful to watch. They found this thing and And it had rotted properly, even though it was a wolf. A wolf thing, a canine for a canine, had massive fangs, fangs. And they said, we had to get this for Ben, but it stinks so bad. Let's just hack off the jaw and bring it to Ben. So they showed it to me. And I'm like, oh, my gosh.

I'm like, go get the rest of it. And they went to get the rest of it. Most of it, the skull had washed down river. They got me the rest of the skeleton that they could get. But the jaw, I'm like the number of teeth it has. and the size and shape and the robustness matches a dire wolf. That doesn't mean that's what it is, but that's... Yeah, we have a big wolf on our hands.

Big wolf on our hands that shouldn't be here. And did that match up to the bite marks? It did. It was the same size, same shape. And so we're like, well, we can do a DNA test. So we sent a DNA sample, we sent the tooth to colossal bioscience, which is the leading, you know, genetic. lab in the world right now. They're the ones bringing back the dire wolf. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And they're working on bringing back mammas and stuff. Sure. And so they,

they, and they have like every canine in the world cat. When was this? Three years ago, maybe four animals. Okay. You weren't responsible for them bringing back the dire wolf. Not that I know of. Not that I know of. Not that I know. You gave them the DNA. Yeah, they say, they have said that they have some other sources that it came from. So, so, but, you know, who knows, right? So. So. But when it came back, the results came back. And this was, it was funny because we were filming our response to it. And we had the whole team on, on, it was like a big old call.

And Brandon was on. And all of us were yelling and fighting and swearing, not at each other, but at science. We were angry about science about this. And like the producers are like, we should have just used this instead because this was like the most entertaining TV we were seeing because we were so mad about. So the results came back. And basically, 89% of it is a non-existent wolf species. So the remaining 10% is Eurasian gray wolf and Greenland gray wolf.

Those do not live in Utah. Those are not in the United States. That alone should be a story, right? What's a Greenland? They're separated. Yeah, that alone. is anomalous. So why are they there? But Colossal said, and I think they're trying to save their professionalism, they said, well, from this, we can, you know, confidently declare this as being a gray wolf.

And I'm like, 10% of it is a gray wolf. What about the other 90%? 90% is the bulk of it. If your dog was 10% Chihuahua and the rest of it was wolf, you would say this is a wolf, right? You wouldn't say, this is a chihuahua, you know, it's like 90% of this is a new wolf. And they put it on their list and they just put it down as mystery. Wow. They didn't want to declare it. They didn't want to call it a dire wolf. They didn't want to call it anything else.

And they even, they have like every cane. They even have Papuan singing dogs genetically sequenced. And then fast forward a few years later, they're making a dire wolf. They're making a dire wolf, yeah. Seems a little suspicious. It's suspicious. They, they say it's from some other sources. But I don't know because I'm not on that into things.

That's, but I mean, that's a massive coincidence. Yeah. It's at least no-worthy. If nothing else, it's no-worthy. Definitely no-worthy. And again, the fact, if you're saying this is just a gray wolf, but only 10% of the DNA is a gray wolf and it's gray wolves that shouldn't be in Utah, you know, the what is this 90%? What is this other wolf? Yeah. I mean, isn't that even more exciting than it being a dire wolf? Especially for them to go, oh, no, it's not a dire wolf. And then they immediately make a dire wolf. It's suspicious. I mean, that to me, to me, would raise a few flags for sure. Okay. All right.

Well, that's, I mean, incredibly anomalous and seems substantial and important. And yet, you know, still not sufficient to say, oh, this is, you know, like we don't have, we don't have any provenance of this. Like where do they come from? Is this a one-off somehow that survived? Is it a portal, like you said? Is it, you know, there's a lot of these speculative questions that occur around these anomalies that seem to go unanswered. Yes. All right.

Moving forward, we now go to cattle, I guess, because we, I mean, this is kind of related. It bit into one of these. Now, the cattle that it bit into, the cow that had bit into. That was the one that got killed by the UFO. The UFO. Oh, on camera. And this footage exists. Have I seen this?

Okay, I've probably seen this thing. Season one, season one. And it's so far back because only other things happened. People are like, oh, yeah. Wait, yeah, this is going to happen. Oh, there's a, see a UFO, hover over a cow and kill it. It's like, that's big. But we've had other cattle, too.

Like the, if you ever watch the show, there's this calf. And earlier in the day, it was fine. Thomas Winterton stopped running around. It was fine with all the other calves. And then all of a sudden, all the cattle just, including its mother, all back away on either side, and it's running around in circles going crazy. And normally if that happens, a mother is going to come along and like, hey, I'm here for you. What's going on?

And even the mother backed away. And its eyes had whited over. Its brain had been like scrambled. They got it off the ranch. It's permanently blind now, but it's okay. It's healthy. It's recovered. but they said it looked like something energetically had affected its brain, you know, like radiation of the brain or something.

Not mad cow disease or anything. Nope. Nope, they tested. They tested for everything they could, and they said it's healthy once they got it off the ranch. And it was healthy earlier in the day and all of a sudden just running around in circles. So this other cow that had come up dead because of, you know, after the UFO had appeared and it sort of fell over and it was all contorted. did it exhibit the same symptoms as some of the other smaller mammals in terms of like decomposing? No, with one exception. It seems like big animals do decompose. Like if we find a dead elk or a dead cow on the ranch normally,

there's cattle that are mutilated on the ranch, but then you have the occasional cow that just seems to die. They do normally seem to decompose normally. The one that the UFO seemed to have killed, that one, it did decompose normally. except for there were no dermestid beetles. So once you get to a certain level of decomposition, I don't take,

small insects will take control. You put a chicken bone in your yard, and within a week you're going to have dermestic beetles that show up out of nowhere. There were no dermestid beetles, and there was some species of green, shiny decomposing beetle that I had not until I researched it, knowing that that species existed in Utah,

but no dermestids. And there's dermesteads on the ranch. Yeah, but they would just avoid it. Yeah. as well as I guess any other small critter. Yeah, yeah. So it seems like it did break down like the gastrointestinal bacteria did break that thing down. But the spine just, the tendons just contorted it in these weird.

And again, in paleontology and paleobiology, it's called a dinosaur death pose. But the cow did that perfectly, just like, ah, it's wild looking. You see it? I'll send you pictures. When you see a dinosaur death pose. Is that because of the fossils that we see of these like... Yeah, yeah. So the tendons on dinosaurs and birds, they can...

When the tendons start to dry on birds and dinosaurs, they contort this way. Mammals contort in the fetal position. I see. And this cow contorted like a dinosaur. Like a bird. Yeah, like a bird. Strange. What do you think, what do you speculate a human body would look like if it had a decomposed

in Skinwalker? And if perhaps one already... has, you know, but obviously there's, you know, ancient burial grounds around there. But what would your suspicion be? I don't know. But my question is, do these things, do these things because they're on the ranch or because they're from the ranch? I see. So what I want to do a test of is like, I don't bring it like a friar chicken and put it out there and see how does that decompose. And then bring one from there and have it die somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah. Has that not been done? Have you guys not imported any dead bodies into the ranch? No. No. I don't.

I feel like that's like an oversight. I feel like you guys should be. It's more just busy. Just normally. That's on the list of things to do. That's been on the list for three years. But that is something we want to do, some on site. Same thing with some mushroom experiments we're going to do, growing mycelium on there and different things and microbes.

You know, take microbes on the ranch, grow them off, take off the ranch, grow them on. But it's just so busy, you know, and when they're doing the filming, you know, we're usually focused on big end things. And so it's just finding time to fit the small stuff in. I suppose, yeah, that's exciting. And there's a lot of things to do and a lot of hands in the pot as well, you know, from, again, from people studying the science, the physics, the archaeology, the, the landscape. I mean, there's, there's lots to look at. In terms of animals, there are some other anomalous stories, one that you sort of told me over breakfast about a falcon. Can you ask? Tell me about that.

You know, I always find it funny when people get worried about secret government files, while simultaneously they post their entire lives online for free. And meanwhile, there are companies out there that know your home address, where you live, your phone number, your relatives, and even past addresses and relationships. And those companies are data brokers. Their whole business is collecting your personal information and selling it. Quietly and constantly, not the cool, kind of mysterious hacker in a basement, but more like spreadsheets full of your life,

getting passed around like trading cards. That's why I use Incogni. See, Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and requests that your personal information be removed from their databases. So instead of you trying to hunt these companies down like some type of digital bounty hunter, Incogni handles that request and keeps following up, which is great, because I already spent enough time going down rabbit holes online, I don't need a side quest trying to remove my phone number from 47 websites.

If you want to take back some control over your data, go to incogny.com slash area 52 and use code area 52 to save 60% on an annual plan because your privacy should not be declassified. Yeah, so we wanted to bring some bio-indicator species, and we were very cautious about this, and some people immediately attack and say, how dare you bring animals onto the ranch? And that's dangerous.

it's like, well, humans are animals and we're on the ranch, and there's wild animals on the ranch, too. So in one sense, it's sixes. We're all at risk, right? But we're very cautious about it. So first I brought on owls. I brought Great Hornel and some barn owls, and they would see. Owls have three-dimensional hearing. Their ears, one's pointed up, one's pointed down.

These things aren't the ears. The ears are openings under the feathers. And they have, so they have three-dimensional hearing. We'd bring them on the ranch, and they'd bob, and they'd just. just like they're focusing in on things that were not there. When we're out in the helicopter field and the east field, they would just like, and we just documented them seeing things. So I'm going to bring an owl out again in this year.

Then we said, well, let's try flying some falcons. So we brought out a couple of peregrine falcons, and they each had on a radio transmitter and a three-dimensional GPS transmitter. So two different, totally different ways of measuring things. So we first went and we're like, let's fly through the triangle. So Eric and I went up on the hill and the triangle is this anomalous zone on the ranch where crazy things happen. So I had my friend down below calling the Falcon in. And while Eric and I were on the hill, the 3D GPS says we're bouncing up in the air and jumping all over the place.

And we're just standing there. And so it's already wigging out. When the bird flew through the triangle, as it went through the triangle, the radio, transmitter flared up both times and then once the bird was on the ground my buddy was picking it up it said that he was like spock in fast motion you know just like and he was just sitting there so we did that twice and I thought okay that's kind of weird let's go to the east field so we went to the east field we start flying the falcon it's flying up's doing good we're like okay this's interesting let's call it back down it comes back down and we have a lure it's like a fake bird you swing around you put it on

the ground, the bird lands and you go pick them up. So my buddy does that and right as it gets by the ground, it freaks out. It's like, ah, and it kind of like panics every time and goes back up of it and goes to come back down there. Something on the ground was repelling it. It was something repulsed it from going down. So it freaked out. It started going up, going up, going up, and it got to about 800 feet and the GPS blips start missing. It's like beep, beep, beep, beep, and keeps going up, keeps going up. We're full. filming, the TV crew is filming, and all of a sudden, the bird disappears. And we're like, what?

My buddy's like, my falcon, where to go? And then on the GPS, it reappears over the triangle, which is about a mile away. And so we go running over there. How long of a time? Instantly. Instantly. Immediately. Impossible.

Impossible. And now the, and when it disappeared, no GPS, no radio signal. The second it reappears, the radio transmitter, is working 100% correctly. We can see the bird. Radio transmitter is working. The GPS is now mirroring the bird's motions, but it's in the wrong place. It's in the wrong place. And when we got the bird back and pulled up the data, it says the bird went through the mesa. Whoa. Which is impossible. And it's important to note if you follow this stuff, if you watch the TV show, where the bird went in the mesa, we have at night a white orb that goes into the mesa at that same spot.

And there's another season where Brandon's flying in the helicopter at sunset, still daylight, and a white orb comes out of the mesa below him. That is the same place where the falcon went in and where the falcon reappeared. So you got to piece those things together. Maybe they're related. Maybe they're not. The falcon, 100% fine. It was kind of like, oh, a little alarmed, but it was fine, healthy.

Birds alive and happy today still being flown. That's incredible. But that's impossible. They didn't put it on the show just because they, sometimes you'll put it later on in the season or you'll put it in the next season and like, oh, I was this season. But there were some people in those shots that aren't on the show anymore. And so like, oh, well, now we can't do this.

And I'm like, this is really important. Yeah, it should still be released. You don't have access to that footage? I have access to the GPS. To the GPS data, which I have, I bet I can get permission. share that, but I haven't been given permission. But I have, I got, Brandon gave me permission to share this story because I'm like, this needs to be out there. If it's never going to be on the show, the world needs to know that. I mean, a teleporting bird is quite substantial,

especially if you got it on camera disappearing and then reappearing elsewhere, you know, as a magician, I would, you know, obviously, oh, it's just two identical birds. You know, it's the old twin trick, the old prestige illusion. Well, and we had, we also had when those of us, because I was filming with my camera, Eric Bard was holding my phone and filming. And a lot of us were hand filming. And I know, I don't remember who else is, but I know for sure my camera while it was filming just shut off and battery 100% dead. And I know a couple other people were having issues while they were filming it right before the bird disappeared. So. Yeah, that seems to be par for the course there as well.

It's just like phones scrambled, like you said, or uncharging or just shutting off or not working. Yeah. That's, yeah, very, very strange. What are some of the other things that you were not allowed to talk about previously? I mean, one of the ones is there seems to be a jaguar on the ranch, and we filmed it also, which this brings up a lot of different points. So jaguars were, they ranged all the way to Canada during the Ice Age. People think of a jaguar as being tropical or desert, but they used to range all the way up north. And supposedly regular Jaguars and the Ice Age Jaguar, which both lived at the same time, now we only have the one, supposedly.

They shouldn't really be any further north than like Arizona, barely, right? But we started seeing on the ranch, Utah is in a 25-year drought. It's just prey populations, animal populations are rock bottom. And all of a sudden on the ranch, all the populations started to explode. Fescents, quail, magpies, ground squirrels, prairie dogs, jackrabbits, cottontails, turkeys just started to explode, which suggests that a carnivore that eats them, like a coyote, is being kicked out. And we started to find these giant cat prints, which we just assumed, oh, it's a big cougar. you know, something like that.

But then we started to also have scat samples that we took and they had coyote guard hairs in them and raccoons. So something is killing and eating coyotes and killing and eating raccoons. Now wolves don't eat coyotes. They kill them. It's kind of like you wouldn't eat a chimpanzee. That would seem weird. We're too closely related.

It's kind of like, it's eating a cousin, right? Wolves kill coyotes, but they don't eat them. Whatever this is doing, it's killing and eating kiosk. and killing and eating raccoons and hunting from the water. It's going along the little river there, which Jaguars do. And then we had Caleb on this head of security there. He, one of his friends just off the ranch filmed, and I've got this footage, Black Jaguar, and it's shiny, it's reflective.

And I've gone to the site and checked the size and shape of all the bush there and everything. It's like it's a daytime black Jaguar. just off the ranch and it's like, okay, is this this it? Is this the big cat? You would, and people have said, well, if that's the case, okay, is this just a jaguar that's moved up north, really far north? Or is this a portal opening up from the past? Is it a modern jaguar?

Is it a prehistoric jaguar? Don't know, but it's that that should be far bigger news. And I don't know why, but that is not catching. People are not talking about that. And it's like even if... Because we have Jaguars. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's... Unfortunately, you know, you could take a Bengal tiger and just drop it in central London and or, you know what mean? And people would be like, wow, it's just somebody's pet. You know, it wouldn't, the significance of it wouldn't resonate with most people, I think. And I think that's part of the issue with a lot of the scientific approach to the phenomenon. itself because in a vacuum individually, whether it's through geology, paleontology, ancient architecture, physics, like all of these individual platforms will showcase highly

anomalous and seemingly groundbreaking truths. But to the general lay audience, it'll just seem like semantics or like, oh, this is just their jargon. And it's not really relatable or translatable to the general populace, which is why, you know, I think they want to see a flying saucer or they want to see a, you know, a little green man or whatever. But, yeah, I mean, I always tell people, I'm like, hey, if a UFO comes over and lands and a little alien gets out and says, hi, that's earth shattering. But it's not more profound than if you have decomposition halted, almost like the animal is suspended in time. It's like if you have no internal gastrointestinal bacteria doing anything, no external bacteria doing anything, rigamortis not setting in, no scavengers bothering it, that is breaking

the known laws of nature and of physics. A UFO coming in saying hi is more amazing, but it's not more profound. You're not breaking anything. That's just, whoa. Right. But yet, I would rather see that, but this over here is actually far stranger. More significant. Yeah.

I mean, it just, it's, we don't see it that way. but that's how it actually is. So, like, it's interesting, too, to think about this just because the decomposition, like you said right there, something stuck with me, that it's paused, almost like it's suspended in time. Does that not also affect the living? We don't know. We have seen issues with time happen. That has been documented on the ranch and even on the show, small differentiations in time that definitely have happened. There's kind of like a bubble over the ranch.

They call it the cone and then the dome and now they call it the bubble. So there's a region. It's not quite a mile wide. And it's not, it doesn't stay. It kind of moves a little, you know, give or take 20 feet on either side. But what's really weird about this is, for example, like little things like ants. Who cares about ants? But yeah, these are bioindicator species.

Outside of the bubble, ant hills, normal. It's high piled up silica, get rid of all the organics, get rid of the dust. It's only silica, so it's a big old solar panel, warm up the colony at sunrise. Inside, they make this, I'll send you pictures inside. It's this stupid thing. It's got grass all around it and in it. It's not even an ant colony. It doesn't look like an ant colony at all.

And it would not allow them to warm up. And on the border, the ants are going crazy. They attack you. If you are on, we put posts all around the border of this bubble and we were just there. and these ants started attacking us and we filmed them, they're just running around in circles. Like in this big of an area, they're just like, na-n-n-n-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na.

It's like they're going crazy. They're not harvesting. They're not defending or attacking. They're just going around in circles. Like their brains are being fried. And so we're like, oh, let's get away from this area because if this is happening to them, what's happening to us being right here?

Absolutely. That was my next question. It was like, isn't that what you guys are doing too? Kind of going around in circles, trying to measure this stuff, you know, like, it is, it is interesting when you're like, whatever it is your measuring seems to be changing, you know, there's, there's always that sort of philosophical question or even deeply scientific question of, you know, can anything truly, is anything truly measurable, you know, because if it knows it's being observed, if it's

conscious on some level, then what you're getting is, you know, it's a skew. It's not. Yeah. Perfect. So do you think that there's any merit to measuring anything at all there? Like, I mean, because it feels like it's just always appealing to. You got to have something. You got to have some sort of language and math and measurements are kind of the language of science. What we've seen is that all the religious folk are using scientific terms and all the scientists are using religious terms because none of us have a vocabulary to describe this stuff. Like if we say, hey, a portal, you're going to picture Rick and Morty, right, Worm, a portal opens up.

But that's, we're just, that's a term that we all know. And that's actually a clunky term. What is this? Some of these portals that happen on the triangle, they seem to not just be point A to point B. You know, and we're measuring them with these different instruments. It's like, is it coming through time? is it coming through space what is this we don't know so portal is a clunky term it's a good term because you get the general idea but we don't know what it is but we got to have something and so

i agree the phenomenon is always one step ahead of us and sometimes it's it's tricksterish occasionally mean and occasionally it even attacks people but it also will kind of lead you along like hey look over here i'm going to teach you a little more oh good job little monkey you you learn i'm going to teach you a little more um but you have to you have to you have to to have something. And so it may be, oh, okay, like I said, okay, small animals don't decompose. Big animals do decompose. If you're in the water, you do seem to decompose. That's true. Those are measurable. I've put those ground rules on. They might not apply at all. Maybe it's just random. Maybe that's just what I've found in certain instances. And maybe it doesn't apply elsewhere.

But I'm just trying to make a framework. That's what we're trying to do. It's like that's the toughest thing to do there. Because even creating a framework based on what we already know doesn't seem to be working. Yeah. Yeah. Because we grew up with certain rules, rules of nature, rules of physics, and they don't seem to apply there. So what are the rules then? You don't know. And how do you take a measurement if you say, okay, this is 10 inches long? Well, if an inch is actually an inch and sometimes an inch is three inches, it's like, what are you talking about? That doesn't make sense. So you, that's what it's like. So from, from your own personal, knowledge and your own personal speculation. What's in the Mesa? Is that something you can talk about?

I can talk much about it. I can talk some about what's on the show. It doesn't make sense. Well, I will say this. I think I'm okay. I think okay to say this. If you watch the, if you go on Google Earth and Google Maps and look over the years, and if you watch the show, so I'm just sharing what you should be able to see publicly, the Mesa is, that area is sinking in on itself and has been steadily. When you look at it like first season, it's almost that section is pretty normal. And where the thing is in the Mesa seems to be moving in and noticeably. So watch from season one until now and they'll be like, oh, gee. And that's been discussed?

I don't think it's been discussed on the show, but all of us are like, what's going on here? It seems to be moving in that area. Because the Mesa definitely seems to be like the crux of a lot of this activity. And obviously also a giant accelerator for, you know, the phenomenon, but also for ratings. Like, I mean, let's be honest. Like, I mean, the mystery stays alive. People tune in every week.

They want to see what happens. What's in the Mesa? what percentage of that hype is related to the show wanting to have another season versus, man, there's genuinely something here that we're really interested in, but we don't have the capacity to get in there. It's 100% legitimate. I think people default to what they picture in the head. Like I said, you know, if you say portal, you picture Rick and Morty. Yeah. And it's a visual you get, right?

UFO. And I've seen, I'll tell you later on, if you want, I'll tell you a story where I saw you. portal and we witnessed it. Same thing. If you say there's something in the mesa, what do you probably picture a UFO? Probably picture some saucer in there and we just got to get to it. Well, whatever's going on there is more abstract. We've found material that we can deconstruct under radiation and then rebuilds itself. That's impossible. We found green leaves dating back to the Eocene, which is impossible. And then you take them out and they dry out. It's like, okay. that's what are you doing hundreds of feet down in a mesa they found ceramics with uh atomic layering

you know amazing material i don't i'm not privy to a lot of that i know a lot of that is coming out soon some of the materials they found in the mesa but they also found like i think a penny deep in the mesa what's that were people down there in the past i think it was like 1920s or 1930s 40s something like that penny they found in there deep in the mesa how can that be there who put it there was it there was the mesa did it used to be open or is there that have something to do with time or is that the phenomenon showing us something or some type of like by the sound of this it sounds like there might be some type of mine or something down there like i mean if it's collapsing in on itself that would make sense a penny would make sense yeah so whatever's going on there it it i think it's more abstract

i think we want the visual of there is an object in the mesa we got to get to it whatever is happening there and the things coming out of it i think it's more abstract than that. I mean, it could just be simply, yeah, UFOs there, you know, some craft crash in there a long time. It could be. Absolutely. But I think we default to that because we're drawn to the unknown, but we don't want the, we don't want a nebulous answer. We want here's the unknown and here's the known. It's a craft. Because it's just like, you know, as an outsider looking in, you know, we're familiar with, you know, there's a show on TV called, um, it's, uh, what was this? Not Skull Island, but.

Oh, Oak Island. Oak Island. There you go. It's in Canada as well. I should know this. But the secret of Oak Island, and it feels like they keep leading you on every season. You're just like, we're not, we're going to get it. We're going to get it.

And like, the more I watch Skinwalker, the more I get this feeling now that I'm like, can't we just like get in there? Can't we just, you know, we have, it seems like we have the financial resources to get this done. But then, you know, the machinery starts breaking down or like the technology starts. It's going haywire. It always feels like a convenient sort of thing that happens that protects this area and convenient in the sense that, like, this is also the area that people want to see on TV. So you understand my slight frustration and not, I'm still entertained by it thoroughly. But there is, there is this feeling.

And I think a lot of people also feel that to a certain extent. what part of that for you is completely true that, yeah, there is that factor here where we just want to, you know, film a TV show and we have to be careful. Or, no, there's just no way of getting in there. Like, what is that? So among the people who are on the show and among the different scientists, the people on the team, we get frustrated because, first of all, the amount of shows they put on, you can't show all that happens. a lot of times the editors Because there's just too much There's too much, yeah.

And a lot of times the editors will pick and choose and they'll say, so it's not the team. It's the editors will say, well, hey, we think this over here makes for a compelling TV. And it's like, but this thing that doesn't seem like, again, a lack of decomposition, time being frozen,

desert trumpet plants growing in wak and doodle ways in certain areas. Some of these things that have happened. Okay, I can only eluded it because they might use it some point. We caught a flying mammal on camera that doesn't exist. I'll just say that much. It's like I did ask Brandon to be able to say that much, but they might use it. But it's like, that's huge. Why aren't we saying that? Well, because some of these things are more compelling and they're going to draw people in more. And it's like, flying mammal, mammal. The powered flight,

no, no, not a bat, not a flying squirrel. Yeah, the flying mammal. I'm running out of options here. doesn't exist. Long face, long weird, curled in whiskers, almost like a binterong, if you ever see those curled in whiskers, long tail, not a webbed tail. And we've, yeah, so I probably shouldn't say more than that. But we've got to document it. So keep after us. If they don't, if they don't let us put that in the show, then let's then I'll say, hey, Brandon, can we pretty please get this information out there? Um, because if, you know, But it seems like scientific discoveries then taking a backseat to... On the show, but not on the actual investigation.

No, but okay, so you guys are investigating it. Year round. In a really formal and professional capacity, you're just not releasing that information. Correct. And some of it, I mean, there's some of it's just barely off there. Because the whole you into basin where Skinwalker Ranch is, it's almost like a funnel. And like the most happens on the ranch, but that whole basin is weird. People were seeing UFOs all the time.

People were seeing weird shape shifting things, but it seems to the epicenter is the ranch. And I mean, Caleb and Nathan had me come out, you know, a few weeks ago to check out this cow that died and wasn't decomposing. And no bloating, a weird document. And it was just barely off the ranch. And it was healthy and just died. And they're like, was this and nothing. No scavengers were touched. So we put game camera.

is up on it and nothing was bothering it. We had a Raven come up and like, uh, and a coyote came up to it and ran off. Don't know what that means, but I mean, these kind of things aren't going to end up in the show. That one was just barely off the range. Sure. So, uh, there's so much year round that's happening there.

And the, the Skin Walker Ranch insiders, that helps, you know, where we can year round have people keep an eyes on the cameras. Just through, yeah. But there, yeah, there's a lot that just probably will never come out. What's something that you would do differently if you were in charge of all this? And I'm not saying that in a way that, like, you know better than anybody. Yeah. But I'm just, I'm curious about like where your head's at.

What would you prioritize? I would say let's make a list of what we do know or the, okay, here's the known rules of the universe. Here's what we think the rules on the wrench. Like I told you the thing about decomposition. Yes. What do we think the rules are? And let's test what we think the new rules are. you know, and each of our fields, let's go through and say, let's, you know,

specify some new experiments to test whether or not these new perceived rules are the rules. That's what I would do. That's what I would focus on, you know, maybe not on camera, but, you know, that's, that's where I'd put my effort. Yeah, because it seems like that's pretty substantial in, in terms of just specifically the decomposition or the, I guess, halting of decomposition or slowing down, whatever that is, could essentially be very beneficial for studying things. Oh, yeah. You know, if we had the ability to mummify things in a way that preserved their organs and didn't necessarily destroy the tissue, I feel like that would be a breakthrough for paleontology, for biology, for all types. And even perhaps,

you know, answering some of the questions on, you know, the preservation of youth or the longevity of our own lifespan. It's like, I mean, it feels related. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever it is, you know, we should have a better understanding of it because it's not just it's internal and external. Mm-hmm. Wow. And other life forms.

Again, if scavengers coming up are like deterred. Yeah. What's doing that? So, and I, we, the cattle mutilations too, it's like, I was so skeptical of cattle mutilations. growing up. You know, I've heard about it my whole life. Um, but then as I've started both on the ranch and as I've talked with other people and other cases and, uh, Mufon has a really good record of them and they've helped me and I've gone out to some of these sites. It's like, there actually is something to this. I did not want to admit that. I'm admitting that.

Not all of them. Yeah. But there absolutely is something to it. Why? Why cattle? And we, the joke is, I don't know if you remember, um, the Star Trek, they went back to get the whales. There's a Star Trek episode where they go back in time. There's this probe that comes from space and it's shooting this beam at the earth and it's like causing all this chaos in these oceans. And they turn out, well, it's actually trying to communicate with whales, but we've made whales extinct. So they go back in time and bring some whales back. And like Spock says, if we were to assume that this message was meant for humans, that shows our arrogance.

Because maybe it's for another life form. And it was. It was for whales, right? So who knows, maybe cattle or what matter. Maybe aliens are coming from somewhere. They don't care about us, but they're curious about cattle. Yeah, people in India would be right about a lot of things in that case. Yeah, which I don't say that's what it is, but I'm just saying you've got to be open to the possibility or wrong.

And you should listen. Not every theory is going to be equal value, but it is valuable to hear it. Yeah. And it's wrong. The bovine is a sacred animal in many cultures. It also is one of the only species that were sort of compatible with on in like, I believe, like the plasma or something, something to do with the blood, like bovine blood, especially, I think, fetuses. And I'm not a biologist by any means, but I've read that there are some similarities there, as well as even the sort of tallow, how it's like, it's good for it. us. It's, it, it, our skin recognizes it as our own. And so, like, there's, there's all this, like, overlap

between us and bovine that seems to, uh, seems to be related. And if that's the case, then, you know, it, it, I don't know, it makes for interesting speculation. I had a guest in here recently that was talking about, you know, his alleged, um, alien abductions. And he was then sort of deferring to the the idea that they feed on blood somehow, like, but is, it's consumed not orally, but like, like absorbing it. Exactly. Like they sit in these vats or whatever. And that it would, it would make sense that their blood would be sort of compatible if we are

related to these species that are taking these cows or whatever it is or taking their blood. But the desanguination is just, I think, the most bizarre part of all this because there's never, even in winter, that's what, like, blew my mind. Yeah. I live in Canada. We get a lot of snow. I take a piss in the snow. You're going to see it, right? Let alone if a drop of blood touches the snow.

These things have no blood in them. And there's no blood around them, no tracks leading up or going to or from them. Yeah. No struggle. they're just dead on their side, you know, with these holes bored in them and with no blood left. Like, what are you supposed to make of that? Yeah, like how do you frame that in a way that makes any sense? And I think hearing way out there theories is important because even if it's wrong,

it's going to get you to think outside of your mindset and then you're going to make the real connection of what it is over here. So I think it's good to hear all these things. They're thought experiments. Even if you don't agree with it or you think, oh, this is. is crazy. Sure. But tell me anyways, because I want the thought experience because it's going to get your mind going. Because we work in these bubbles, you know, and you need somebody to think outside of the box and to share a different perspective to help you make new perspectives that are different than the perspective they're sharing. Correct. Yeah. I agree. I don't, I don't have a working theory

on what the cattle mutilation thing is. Again, my brain goes to, you know, in 1990s, UFO, wum, Wom Wom, picking up a cow. You know, that's the visual I get. Same thing you say portal. Bam, Rick and Morty appears in my head. Well, whatever it is, the phenomenon is real. It's verifiable. Not every case is, but it absolutely is.

What is it? I don't know. I, you know, and I feel like my theories are painfully lacking on what it could, what, what it's their hypothesis. Their hypotheses. And, you know, of course, the brain goes to, you know, non-human intelligence. but it could be something totally abstract that we don't even know. Right.

Absolutely could. Could be some other primitive life form that is intelligent in its own right, but that is nothing to do with our type of intelligence. That's so fascinating. I'm very fascinated by all this. In terms of other biological anomalies that occur on the ranch, what else sticks out to you? I know you mentioned something about plants.

Is there any, you know, flora? So one of the things we found, there's a region, we call it the runway, and just the plants grow in what looks like a runway. We don't understand it. And there's a plant. It's called golden hairy astor. It's kind of a wild name there. But it's this plant that grows there. And what we found is on either side of this runway, it was growing normal.

And in the runway, it was the leaves were growing. It looked like they had been radiated. they looked all like, whithered and like, so when radiation hits a life form, it mutates the cells and, you know, a cell is just, you know, reproduce, reproduce. And if you get the wrong code, you start growing, you become erratic. Yeah, an erratic. So they were doing that. And I thought, well, could, would the acidity and the alkalinity be different?

And so we should, well, it should be in the ground. So we took samples from the ground from these plants and checked them, the plant themselves and in the ground, and we did find a difference in the alkalinity and the acidity based off of in the runway versus on either side of it. We did find that. Right beside it. And we want to do, we didn't, we want to go back and do this. I want to also test for like isopods and, you know, small arthropods in the ground. Let's see, are they growing differently? Are they affected by this? There's one plant that I love this plant. It's called a desert trumpet plant. It's in the buckwheat family. If you research it, you're going to get a lot of misinformation

because it grows in these weird bulbs. And there's this one guy like in the 70s wrote and said, oh, this wasp burrows the hole. And then it goes and grows that way. That's not why it grows that way. They do that after the fact. But it's such a strange and specific plant that Star Trek based in alien life form off of it. It's a really cool plant. But it grows in a mathematically perfect way. I wrote up the formula for the growth, like if you were going to code it into a computer and replicate it. And on this one part of the ranch, it would grow the first stage normal, go to the second stage, normal on the last stage. It went like, totally crazy. And the next year, they did not.

And so if the, so plants grow in stages. And so the assumption is that there was an energetic event that happened, kind of like with this golden astor, something happened that year at this one growth stage, something did it. And that's the same field that the falcon disappeared on and then reapered over the triangle. So, you know, so the plants are telling us things too. The plants are, if you look and listen to what they're saying, the plants are, the arthropods are, the frogs are on the ranch, you know, I wouldn't, to talk about the magpie nest. Yeah, though, built or was that, I think we talked about that breakfast.

If you want to go back to that, because I thought that was really interesting. Yeah. So on that north, south, the path of the skinwalker, it goes. Let's lay the land here a little bit, the path of the Skinwalker. What is that exactly? And why is that an important place? So without getting too much into politics, and again, every tribe is going to share their history through their own voice. But the general, what is told is that in the past, the Ute tribe and the Navajo tribe, the Dene had some beef and had some bad things happen between them.

And so the Navajo cursed the Ute with the path of the Skinwalker that goes from the south from Navajo land up north to the Ute. reservation, which runs right through Skinwalker Ranch and along a very specific path. And the ranch has a fence line going along that path. And there's petroglyphs on this path. It's a very specific thing. It's not just loosely the path of the skin walker. It's literally. Have you walked this path?

Yes. Yes. Anything weird happened to you? Constantly. I mean, that's where, that's where lots of cattle mutations have happened there. If you watch the show, the big hole through the tree happened there. And the magpies, magpies build a really. specific nest. They make a, like a clay nest, like a robin, and then they make a stick nest around it with

walls and a ceiling and a front door. It's very specific, very recognizable. And on this path, in this tree right next to it, they build it, but they build it wrong, like their orientation is wrong. They're under axis is wrong. And so the eggs fall out and they lay more eggs. The eggs fall out. They lay more eggs and they do it every year. They'll build a new nest. Same thing. And it's all crooked and things keep falling out. So happens again and again and again every single time. And what encompasses do they act up in that area as well? Are there? Yes. So there does seem to be like a geomagnetic anomaly there. Yeah. But the weird thing is like a regular compass will about half the time be messed up there and half the time it works. But if you have a digital compass on your phone,

the anomaly is like, oh, really? Who. And it like spin it and make it just do all. kinds of crazy things. Meanwhile, you have a real compass and it's like, okay, I'm messing with you a little. But if it's digital, it has a heyday. It goes wild, absolutely wild. That's so silly because this should not be related. Oh, yeah, what does digital have to do with it? Yeah. Yeah. Whoa, okay. So this, I mean, this is so, this makes me want to go out there. Do you ever think, do, like, if I, if I went there, do you think they would, they would give me a tour? If you, if, if we, if, if we, connected with Brandon. Yeah, I have his phone number. Yeah, yeah. We've spoken maybe a year ago, because I have some friends out in Utah as well, and they know Brandon, and they're putting me in touch

and whatnot, but I know he's a busy guy. Yeah, yeah, he's, he's really cool. And if you can get him and he's busy, you know, he'd probably be open to that. He's, it's not just like open for business, but, you know, of course. But he loves to help people get a, get a beat on it and understand and help push this information out there. So I think he'd be very open to it. Yeah, it'd be interesting. I'd be interested. There is the, you know, the one concern that the audience keeps bringing up with this stuff, as well as friends who talked to me about is this hitchhiker effect. And that is this idea that by visiting this place, you are then opening yourself up to the phenomenon in a way that will follow you back to back to your home. Have you experienced the hitchhiker effect? I'm one of the only people who has not.

And I'm grateful for that. Just about everybody who's who I know of who's like the main team on the ranch, you know, there's other contractors that maybe come like once a season kind of thing. But just about everybody I know has had some sort of a skin, some sort of a hitchhiker effect happened to them. And I haven't. I've had, I think, more strange things happen to me on the ranch, kind of in the paranormal kind of more of like in the ghostly type stuff than most people have that I've talked to. but off the ranch, I've had basically nothing. What's your explanation for that? What makes you immune?

I'm not, I don't know. I don't know. I come in really wanting to understand very much so. I don't come in as a believer, but it's like, hey, there's something here. I want to understand it. And I very, very much want to understand it. And that, I mean, that's what I love about it. For me, when I had this opportunity, I jumped at it because I thought, I don't want an anecdotal story.

I want to know firsthand. I want my own photos, my own data that I, and for anybody else, now it's anecdotal to them. I'm sorry. And if you don't believe me, I don't care. That's fine. I salute you. Great. You don't believe me.

Fine. But I'm sharing. I'm just sharing the experiences. Take it as you will and do what you want with it. I'm just reporting back because I've been grateful for this opportunity. And I want to share as much of it as I'm allowed to. And I want other minds on it. I want other people because, I mean, think about it.

I'm making assumptions that might not be connected. They might have a jaguar might be totally unrelated. It might just be coincidental. If there's a jaguar running around up there, that could be a totally unrelated thing. And then the biologist says, oh, this is connected. Maybe it's not. And so having other people talking about this and questioning it is good. So you think your open-mindedness is warding off this hitchhiker effect to some extent?

I think, well, I think it is instead. it is toning down the trickster element. I think it, I, I've had a lot of experience and some of my don't share publicly that seem to be like it's trying to show me and teach me. I've had more teaching moments, I think. I think a lot of the people have come in with healthy skepticism. A lot of them have no background in this kind of stuff. You know, it's just like raw, regular science.

And, and so they're just highly skeptical, which is good. Well, I always say, don't, don't be a skeptic, be skeptical. A skeptic is a predetermined. I don't believe. Yeah. Say, uh, show me the evidence and let me make my assumption. That's good. It's good to be skeptical.

But I think there's so many people who come in so brash and they don't, they want to be made a fool. I don't care to be a fool. If I'm wrong, oh, I was wrong. Okay. Let's recalibrate. Yeah. I don't mind being wrong. I don't, I don't mind that.

And so I've had a lot of instances where kind of the trickster element, I think among everybody there, my phone has been hacked in the least. I think it's only happened twice. It was like a first season there. That's so crazy to me that your phone's been hacked in twice and it's happened the least. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, people have to have to replace their phones.

If I'm going there with my phone, you're saying there's a 100% chance that my phone will act up? No way. Yeah. Especially. I would document the hell out of my phone. Yeah. Get a second phone and film. Exactly.

Or a camera, not a phone to film my phone because that will act up. too. Yeah. But yeah, and some people, it ruins their phone completely and scramble and they have to get a new one. And so, you know, so you're saying that the phenomenon is obviously aware on some conscious level. It behaves that way of what your intention is. And it knows ahead of time. And so what do you mean it knows ahead of time? It's somehow it can anticipate. If you're going to do an experience, It knows what the experiment's going to be. Do you ever have things that happened to you before going to Skinwalker Ranch that are sort of in hindsight? You go, oh, it was preparing me or it was showing me or it was telling me something. There's been things that might just be synchronicity. It might be you're seeing what you want to see and I can't rule that out. But there's some things where like I'll meet somebody or have a conversation ahead of time and then I get to the ranch.

It'll feel just totally synchronous. Lines up, which that could just be coincidence. Could be also like a synchronicity generator happening type thing. Like, I mean, I wouldn't completely put it past. Like, if we're also delving into this sort of paranormal or transdimensional, you know, hypotheses, then, you know, the idea that synchronicities might also be enhanced in and around this place, I think would be fair to say. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So the best, I'm trying to, in my head, I'm trying to, like, build up armor here for, for, you know, an eventual trek to this area.

And I might, you know, I think I do have a healthy balance. of skepticism, but open-mindedness. And this is actually helping me prepare because I hear about these stories. And although, you know, part of me wants to chalk it up to confirmation bias to, you know, a suggestion. The suggestion is very powerful as well. Like if you're completely against being hypnotized and you're like, I don't believe in hypnosis and you'll never hypnotize me.

and then which you're right, you won't be able to, but then if your best friend who you've known since you were a child, I hypnotize them in front of you, something in the back of your mind and your subconscious changes. You might still say, well, he's just, you know, in on it or you'll never get me,

but something fundamentally changes to where now you're able to being hypnotized. Yeah. And so I think about that a lot when this hitchhiker effect occurs and you have these skeptics going in, these staunch sort of debunkers, and they're the ones who seem to be affected the most. And it's hacked.

I don't like saying it. I mean, because I love everybody who's where everybody I've met it there who works, both the people doing the research and people doing security and even the film crew, you know, I've worked with film crews on other projects and it's like there's always some drama, right? Zero drama. These are good people. They're sincere. A lot of them are skeptical, too. But they're like, hey, we're just going to film this and document this. Good people.

But I have seen that if you, so if you go to the ranch, go with a teach me. Just come with that attitude, be like, hey, I'm, I'm skeptical. I'm not a skeptic. I just want to learn. I want to experience. I want to feel. And I understand I might have a little confirmation bias that might be kind of leading me on. I'm aware of that, but still teach me.

And it'll show you things. But if you, and like me, I mean, that's always been my attitude, right? But like, this is the portal story. sure yeah let's get into this but this is one of those ones where I kind of questioned it and what happened it was kind of interesting so me and one of my friends charlie we were there and it was nighttime and we said let's go do some astrophotography and it's great night milky way out so we went over to this area and we put up our cameras start taking pictures and this isn't important but i share it as part of the story all of a sudden we heard

something going along the creek and maybe it was just a kind of or raccoon. But all the frogs and crickets stop, stop, stop, and we got this kind of creepy feeling. Great. Who cares about feelings? Feelings. But anyways, that kind of creep us out for a bit, but then it went away and that feeling got away and went back to normal. We got all this great photos. We're having a good time. And I said, you know what, Charlie? Sometimes this ranch is really creepy feeling. And sometimes, like, right now, it just feels like a regular, beautiful old ranch in northern Utah. He's like, yeah, I know what you mean. Like right now, it's just a cool, place in night. And the second we both said that, we hear a sound. And it's, if you shoot a 22

bullet across the desert, that and also if you've ever been a frozen lake, that do, do, do, boom, that breaking sound, it was those two sounds. You're pretty good at those sounds, by the way. It's those two sounds together. And we both turn to it. And we look over in about eight, nine feet up, I don't know, like 20, 30 feet away. We see, and it hits. And it. had already started, we see an expansion ring coming out. Now, it was lit, but it was not self-illuminating. It was like it was expanding out so fast horizontally that if you've ever seen like explosions in slow motion where the shock wave that comes right will sometimes compress and make

water vapor. Okay. That's what it was. It was a water vapor ring from the speed of it coming out and it was illuminated by the stars. Like it was, it looked, it wasn't light. It wasn't producing light, but it was reflecting the starlight out. And we look and we just see this and we're like, and it was, and it probably was about eight, nine, ten feet out when we looked over.

And it got to about 40 feet. And we said, oh, let's, let's get out of here. So we packed up our stuff and we start walking towards Homestead, one, and the command center right next to each other. We're going towards them. And all of a sudden the command center, the lights go, and go off and then, go back on and Tom came out and he's like hey I was looking for you guys you guys okay

and we said yeah the power just went out he's like what do you mean I was in the ranch house the power didn't go out and like no it went off in the command center he said that's impossible they're on the same breaker if one goes off they both go off and we're like we just saw this and so I don't know what to make of that but I kind of take it to mean that the ranch was like oh yeah just a normal ranch you know better than this you experience too much already how dare you say that, I'll show you. Maybe that's not it. Maybe it's totally unrelated.

Some explosion out there, some weird EMP bomb or, I don't even know. But whatever, whatever it was, I mean, the timing was immediate. And that sound and just that expansion. And I don't think it was the same thing, but you understand in the Bigelow era that, you know, they documented vertical portals and things coming through them. So I don't know if that's the same thing, but in hindsight, would you go towards it? I would have now, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

If you told me, hey, you're about to see this, go towards it. I would have. But I was too spooked at the time. Of course. It shocked me too much. There's things like that on the ranch. I would have probably had the same reaction. Like, let's get the hell out of here.

In hindsight, you go, God, yeah, should have walked towards it. Well, same thing. We'll hear voices on the ranch, and usually you walk away from them. Sometimes walk towards them. What kind of voices? Well, my first one, this is at Homestead. This is Homestead three. It's the far west end of the ranch.

And Tom and Candace is my first time there. And they're taking me on a tour around. And there's a Native American medicine man there with us. And he was blessing the dog who lives there who had been attacked to the week earlier. And I'm like, what did get attacked by? And they're like, dog wolf thing. I'm like, what are you going to give me more than that? But I was just getting to know them.

I didn't know him yet. So I didn't press it. So that medicine man came to give the dog a blessing. He was in a cone. And so then they were showing me. The medicine man or the dog? The medicine man was giving the dog a blessing. The cone was on the dog.

The cone was on the dog. Okay. Yeah. And so they took me out. And so we were showing Homestead one, Homestead two, and Homestead three. And I was, I don't know, like 30 feet away from them. And they were showing me some stuff. And then I walked away and I was looking out there.

And I was just, and I started hearing voices that sounded. Native American. I know some Ute. And when I was 18, I was adopted by the Kikri Cherokee tribe. I speak a little bit of Cherokee. Cherokee is not a Utah tribe in any way, shape, or form. But I start hearing these voices and I'm leaning, leaning in. And I started speaking Cherokee at it in just like, that's my default. It's nothing to do with the Ute language. But I'm like, and those voices were like, and they were like, it was almost like they heard me and couldn't see me. and started like, oh, what is this? And what is these voices? And so I was just like, kind of like listening, trying to strain in. And Candace goes, Ben, Ben, Ben. And I'm like, yeah. And she's like, are you okay? I'm like, yeah. And I told her what happened. I'm like, why were you so worried? And apparently the week before somebody had been sitting, standing in that exact same spot and had been looking the same direction, had gone catatonic and collapsed and had to be taken off the ranch. And so they were thinking that's what was happening to me. It wasn't. but those were the first voices I heard on the ranch.

Yeah, wow. Yeah. If I, if I, if I, if I, if I, if I, if I, if I, if I, just starting to speak Cherokee into a dark void, I would also be concerned. Well, and then, like, my first night on the ranch, um, this kind of, and again, this is anecdotal story. So, but I mean, this, I'm, I'm sharing what happened. If you don't believe me, that is fun.

Sure. Sure. You have your right not to believe me. So, um, at the time Eric wasn't living on the ranch, he was coming on and off. And so I was in the, main bedroom in the command center. And I'm like, this is kind of weird. You don't have internet working there on your phone, even though it's really close to civilization. And I was like, okay, so I'm not really connected to the outside world. I'm alone in this house. Everybody else is in,

Tom and Candace's house. So I have the lights on in the bedroom. And I'm like, feeling a little creeped out and just feeling a little vulnerable. So I'm leaning over on my side, and I'm just like looking up pictures from the day at the phone. And I got the, the blanket's pulled up on me. And all of a sudden, I feel something I look down and the blankets are getting pulled off, not like falling off. These are like really coarse, crappy material blankets, not like soft, you know, silky stuff. And it's like something is pulling them off. And it goes almost all the way off the bed. And I'm like, nope, nope, nope.

So I grab them and I pull it back up. I'm like, I just got to ignore this. I can't acknowledge this. And so I'm still looking at my phone again. And it starts happening again. And they pull almost all the way off. And I'm like, I literally don't have the brain length, wait, waiting to handle this. So I bundled them in my legs and like, and I'm like, no, there's 100% on the bed.

Nothing's hanging off the bed. It's in it. You're taking me off if you're taking these blankets off. And I just turned on like an audio book and slept with the lights on because I'm like, yeah, too freaked out. Yeah. That's one of the scariest things ever. Yeah. First night there.

Oh, my God. Yeah. All the rest of the nights. I'm like, I need to sleep over here with you guys in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, the ranch house. And that was even worse because they, it was so hot. They had the door open and they had guns by every door. Tom and Candace made that ranch house beautiful. It was like a beautiful hippie place. It had like prisms and all the windows and stuff. When it was sunset, they're like, it's rainbow o'clock. But they had guns by every door because things, they're like, yeah, something came in

and attacked the dog from the door. So the screen door's there. The door's open. I'm sleeping on an air mattress in there with these guns and I'm like pretty vulnerable I don't like this yeah wow yeah it's it's so weird it's so weird because it's so creepy but it's so beautiful it seems sometimes so malicious and sometimes it's just hey come and learn come and learn things what's your conviction level like before and after are you like did you go in thinking oh there's something here and you left thinking, oh, there's definitely something here? Or were you like, I don't really know what to expect and now you're 100% in? Like, where's your conviction on a percentage level of the phenomenon being absolutely real that something is interacting with you? So going into it, I think I was maybe 30%, maybe 40%,

I thought people think it's up here. And I think they've inflamed it up. I think it's probably, there's some weirdness going on. It's probably around here. And people have people like a good story. Yeah. That's a healthy way to think. Yeah. And, but now having been on the ranch, 100%, 500% I mean, it's, and the thing that pisses me off scientifically is it makes zero sense. If you said, oh, here's a place where people see Bigfoot a lot. I don't know if Bigfoot's real or not. I've seen Bigfoot and I don't know if Bigfoot's real. Okay. But if you just said that, or here's a place where we saw a UFO. Cool. but what does that have to do with prehistoric animals coming through portals?

What does that have to do with cattle mutilations? What does it have to do with decomposition not happening? These things should not overlap. They're weird enough as they are. They shouldn't overlap. And they do. And I can verify that for myself. So if nobody believes me, that's fine.

I know for myself because I've experienced it 100%. And I've seen some of the greatest scientists I've ever had a chance to work with also see this firsthand and see it like make them scratch their heads. and some of them get attacked, you know. What's the most important discovery during your time there that you think, even outside of yourself that was made while you were there? I, hmm. That's a tough one because is it more about what is profiting? I mean, I think the fact that we've got UFOs on camera, you know, killing a cow, that that's not the most important, but I think that's pretty low-hanging fruit.

You know, it's like UFO, killed a cow, cow spirals and goes whack-a-doodle, and then a dire wolf or something bites through its bone. I mean, it's just an odd chain of things. I think there's a lot of medical physical, meta-physical things. The fact that there does genuinely seem to be portals, the fact that you had lasers stopped. I mean, that's maybe the fields of science that I'm not in, version of the decomposition thing. It's like shooting a laser at the sky and having it stop or having it split or go into four directions randomly. That's it's a laser. It goes only one direction unless you bend it.

That bubble, whatever that dome, that bubble is, it's real. We've dropped things down and have things kind of bounce off of it. We've had drones, you know, when you have the border of it, drones that are trying to do a grid pattern. And I've filmed it with my phone. This thing is like, boom. And it's like it ran into a wall and it's like, ugh. and then it has to go back to home base and recalibrate and then go through it. Rockets.

You had rockets that, you know, once they hit that, go, and we've had rockets when they come down and they hit that zone and they stay. Oh, I'm going to sit in one place for 30 seconds on a parachute and then go over. We've dropped GPS things in cans out of the helicopter and they seem to bounce off it. I don't understand what it is, but whatever it is, It's really important. The triangle seems to be kind of the center of it. Whatever that is, whatever that zone is, and, you know, we see things going underground. But I mean, and I think on my end, you know, watching a falcon go through a portal and come out the other side, that's, that's pretty wild.

It's pretty wild. I will give you that. Yeah, all of this seems to be really, it's hard to put it into one category. And I think that's probably why, you know, like you said. it's pretty frustrating scientifically. You know, some of this stuff behaves like, oh, it was radiated. Like if you look at the plant life, like you said, like, oh, okay, there does seem to be some correlation here with radiation, whether that's some type of beam striking down, whether there's something in the earth that is there that is causing, you know, is irradiating that area. You know, that could also make sense, perhaps, of some of the species being a little bit of.

little different, you know, because if you're mutating cells at a level where you, you can see, you know, plants be different, then obviously that might also be true for whatever's living there. Yeah. It might have evolved differently than other predators in that neighboring area. And when we found it on, on the elk on the ranch, on the game cameras, they have spots that correlate with almost like if you, if you took like a dental x-ray and put. put it right up at their face and left it on for an hour. And then what it does to the skin and what it does to the hair, um, spots on them doing that. We've documented that.

But the strange thing is, is a lot of times when you have these spiked radiation levels, come back four hours later, it's back to normal. And how, you know, yeah, radiation should just be there for another half million years. Exactly. And it doesn't. And how so is that an issue with the instruments? Was the, uh, phenomenon like messing with your instruments? to make you think there was a spike?

Or did you actually have transient radiating? That's impossible, but is that what happened? We don't know. But the plants definitely do seem to act like it. And again, some of the animals we found, you know, some of the deer and some of the elk. Yeah. We've also found. Or whatever's causing this has similar symptoms to being radiated.

Maybe it's some other type of force that we're not familiar with. Correct. You know, that would, I think, make some sense. Yeah. And again, some of the animals we see, you know, could they just be enlarged? We found on the game cameras a giant raccoon that's got way longer legs. Everybody thought they're like, is this a bear? And they thought it was a black bear.

I'm like, no. And it has this really stumpy tail. And I showed everybody the pictures. I'm like, again, during the Ice Age, we had this giant raccoon called Chapel Melania. And I'm like, okay, is this? I'm not saying it is. But if you had like radiation, could this be just a regular raccoon that got radiated? and this somehow changed to more of a cancerous type growth and more bulbous back and longer legs and this super stumpy tail.

But it looked just like, you know, again, if you see this, if you're not, if you know biology, but you don't know paleontology, then you don't make this jump. And it's like, well, okay, we had giant 300 pound beavers, you know, castroides. We had giant raccoons, you know, Chapo-Millania that lived alongside the regular ones. Yeah, they didn't turn into this. These are, these lived at the same time. These are gone. We had giant jaguars and regular jaguars, the big ones were supposedly gone. We had dire wolves and gray wolves.

Dyer wolves are gone, you know? But they live side by side. And so you got to make that connection. The ecosystems of North America are not intact. I mean, we should have mammoths and camels and sloths and all these things alongside elk and moose and deer and turkeys and all these things. Pretty compelling. Pretty interesting. I can't wait to get some actual, you know, 4K imagery of like one of these things just showing up or even better yet, a body. Yeah. You know, that would be that would be the day because I think, you know, something like that then becomes an international.

I mean, it becomes big news in every regard and not just in the sort of alien paranormal UFO regard. but like more so of like, hey, there are things happening on this earth that are apparently natural, apparently, you know, tied to some event that is creating these little pockets here. I mean, that that itself is equally as fascinating as extraterrestrial to me. It really is. Yeah. You know, it might not capture imagination as much, but I mean, like we, whatever this wolf thing is, you know, we have a good chunk of the body. We have the jaw. We have the DNA sequenced, and it's been compared by the most extensive genetics lab on Earth at the moment by every other canine on the planet and all the different dog breeds too, and it doesn't match any of them.

And it's a tangible event. I got it sitting in my house, you know, the jaw is sitting in my house. You a picture of that? Yeah, yeah. And also, I forgot to mention this. Let me make sure you get you pictures of these two. This is another, this is another weird thing. See, there's little things like this that are actually big that these are big stories,

but I forget because it's been years. There's been so many things. So that jaw, I cleaned it off and then I let dermested beetles at home clean it off further. And then I took it back to the ranch. So I had it in like a little Tupperware, a little rubber made container, no lid, just paper towels. And it's about this deep. And so I show up at the ranch and I said, hey, come on and have lunch.

I'm like, well, I'm going to leave this outside. So when you're walking up the stairs to the trailer, there's a little table right there. I set it on that table. People are walking in and out, past it. I was in there eating lunch for maybe 10 minutes, 12 minutes. And when I came back out, it's covered all over with lacerations, deep incisions. Now, some people are like, could it have been a rodent? They're not doubled up.

They're individual lacerations. And it's sitting in the exact position when I set it down. It's not like somebody picked it up. cut it and then put it back in all around it it's deep deep deep incisions and i asked her i'm like did anybody touch this i mean did anybody notice anything no and like 10 to 12 minutes eating lunch people walking past it and somehow it's covered with lacerations like noticeable no oh yeah i'll send your pictures there they would have noticed that these weren't absolutely like you would have to like you'd have to do this with a dremel or whoa to do these to do these into the raw bone

and have them look like this, you would have had to have done it when the bone was still fresh. Right. Or else it would have cracked. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so somehow these are that way.

And I got pictures of the job before. And after, and it's like, how did this happen? I have no idea. But deep, deep, deep, these big old lacerations, like something just all over, even on the side, everywhere, all around it. Bizarre. It just happened in those 10 to 12 minutes.

So abstract. And, yeah. What's the point of that? Why would something do that? What does it mean? What is it saying? Is it saying anything? How could it happen?

I don't know. What, um, so, you know, the one thing that I, I am sort of leaning towards more of now. And, you know, you touched on this a little bit. You said, as we're, as we're looking at things and there's this pendulum swings, you know, we get into science and now we're looking at religion, spirituality. We get too far into religion and spirituality. We're looking at the scientific explanation. There's this ebb and flow of these two worlds. But something which is more on the spiritual side and something that perhaps being a skeptic myself or skeptical, I've, you know, now as my pendulum is swinging back towards this idea of, okay, there's something perhaps tying the spiritual world into, you know, scientific world.

at the heart of that are these Native American First Nations, indigenous tribes, these tribes that have been here for a very long time that seem to be at the very root in terms of not only their sort of, for the most part, they're lore. They're, you know, they talk about star people. They talk about all these things that we find in so many different religions and that we're looking at now in the sky. We're seeing a lot of these anomalous, you know, UAP activity. But we're kind of echoing in our own language what they were saying. And so I think they have so many answers for us. Being someone who is adopted by a Cherokee, what do you make of that? Do you put stock into that as well?

I definitely do, especially the tribes in southwestern United States, northwestern Mexico, all the way up to Navajo and Ute, which is, you know, Skynwalker Ranch will be the northeastern range of that. Those people, their stories, their legends, there's something to it. And there's something connecting to some of these paranormal phenomenon. And it seems very legitimate. The more and more I steady it and the more. I learn about it, the more I very much, very much see something with it. And you see that with ancient peoples.

You can put it everywhere, like the, in Australia, the Aborigines, though, if you look up the Wanjina figures, it's like that just, they just look like gray aliens. Some people say, well, they're water spirits. It's like, you put a gray next to them and it's like, this is literally the same thing. And they're all over. And those are like 10, 12,000 year old paintings. So the tribes here, absolutely. their stories. There's a story with one of the Eastern tribes, one of the Eastern Hardwood Forest tribes,

and they have a legend of that there was a child that one of the beings from the sky world came down, fell in love with the woman, and they had a child together, and they said, okay, you have to take care of this child and don't ever strike the child. If you strike the child, then Skywoman's going to take her back, and this child's going to live back with the father and the people it came from. and it's this whole story. And they still, but the grandma did, like, scold the child and, you know, gave him a whack. And so they took them away. And even if that's legend, a legend can be based off of something.

And so the people today, they still all will have these ceremonies where they cry and and give mourn and sorrow for this sky child that was taken back up to live with this rain spirit that, you know, took them up. So you might just be making an incorrect connection, but you're also stupid if you dismiss it. It's like listen to the legend and let it percolate. Think about it. It's like, okay, this gives me a greater worldview.

And maybe we can make some connections of understanding. Do you think they know more than they're letting on? Because I know that a lot of these communities are very tight-knit as well, in that, you know, they don't just give information freely to outsiders who who were coming in and that's just what and you have to even if you wanted to tell a story you'd have to get approval from like the elders or like the chief or like whatever it is you'd have to go to the community and be like can I tell the story can I give them this information so do you think there's still a lot that they're kind of keeping secret I think that in general loosely in general yes with all the tribes but very specifically southwestern tribes and southwestern united states northwestern mexico In archaeology, we call it the Southwest Northwest region. Those people absolutely have things that they, you know, and occasionally you'll get them to explain,

we'll all and allude to it. And again, they're using terms that, you know, are mythological in the vocabulary, but it's very much, very literal on how they, and when they'll leak some of it out and tell you a little bit, it's like, oh, that's exactly fits in with this or that that we see in some of these events and it lines up. You know, the timelines aren't perfect.

You know, oral histories or oral histories, they're not going to be perfect. They're going to change a bit. And what you end up with is you have primordial time. So like if I said, when was Jesus born? That's a historical question. Whether Jesus or not was real, it's a historical question. If I say, when was Zeus born or when it was Horace born, that's that's primordial time. That's time before time.

And that's when these legends take place. They could be, you know, the future, the past, a, million years ago, 10 years ago in the stories. They're told that way, just like, when was Zeus born? It doesn't matter. It's an, it's, and that's how these stories are, but they have truth in them. They have deep truth in them. And it is true that there is a lot that is, especially in those southwest, northwest, northwest tribes, there is a lot that only occasionally gets leaked out. And when it does, you're like, yeah. And that might be the reason why Skinwalker Ranch is so interesting, because, Because it is where science and spirituality intersects. We're talking about these ancient tribes that there's burial grounds there, there's curses, there's these legend and lore that's present in this area. And now we have the world's leading scientists, the world's government, like the biggest, you know, militarized government in the world, turning their attentions to this, you know, tribal land here that's sacred. And now we're finally, like the pendulum seems to have met in the middle here at Skinwalker Ranch. Yeah.

And it's interesting to see what will come from that. But I do feel in my gut that as long as we measure with the instruments that we're familiar with will only get undetermined answers. And then that will have to start, you know, adapting the other way and look inwards and have these other ways of measuring things. Well, and you have to, you, it's okay to be skeptical, right? And it's okay to say, show me the evidence. But it's like if you see some evidence, you, it does, you don't have to have a conclusion, but you at least have to acknowledge this is some evidence, you know, like when the, the rabbi did the prayer on the ranch and all of a sudden all, at homestead to all of the colors,

the thermal imaging cameras just changed everything. or when they brought that tribe out and they did a drum circle there and all of a sudden like these orbs were coming into the mesa on camera. It's like, okay, I don't know what that means, but you have to at least say, this is a thing that happened. I'm going to put it in my brain and I'm going to factor it in. Don't just dismiss it, you know, and we may not know what it means. And just because you don't know what it means, that's okay. You don't have to be like, therefore it's stupid.

it. No, don't dismiss it. Just log it in there and keep that as part of the information. Should get people to do like some ayahuasca ceremonies there or something? I feel like you'd probably get some interesting. I think they need to. I think they, and I wonder if that may have happened off camera, off camera with, without me around. Yeah. I know Eric and I really want to do a lot of experiments, growing mushrooms and also have people. Yeah, psilocybin. Yeah, I mean, I'd be down to experiment with that. that as well. I think that would be like a heck of a place where you get tuned into some, you know, wild frequencies. Yeah. I think it would, I think, I think it should be done. Yeah. It should be done in a controlled setting where, you know, dose set and setting, have it be very

safe and have people there to make sure it's done well and right, but also to make sure it's not too clinical to be like, hey, we're open to learning. We want to learn. We got people here to make sure it's safe, but I'm using locals, perhaps in their own methods and, you know, I think it would be really, really wise. That, and that would be an episode. So to Skinwalker, I'd love to watch. I'll tell you that right now. That would be great, actually. That would be incredible.

Brandon, if you're listening and you ever need somebody to help set it up, I'd be more than happy to throw my name in the hat. Ben, I'm going to grab, I'm going to turn this camera on back here. We got some questions from the audience that I'd love to ask you. That's great. All right. All right. So if you're a member here at Area 52, you get access to a lot of perks. One of the main perks here that a lot of people seem to like.

is the possibility of asking our guests a question. So I informed them 24 hours ahead, usually 24 hours. And they get to ask us some questions. And then I cherry pick from those. And often, I'll tell you, collectively, their questions are better than mine. I mean, you know, a bunch of really interesting, intelligent people coming together asking questions. It's the greatest way to ask the best questions. So I encourage you guys to do that if you are a part of the membership already.

All right. Here we go. Interesting question here by Michelle L.P. This question asks, is there video evidence of active portals at the ranch that is being suppressed? I don't know what is being suppressed, but I think suppress seems kind of nefarious. I know there is footage from the Bigelow era. and I believe we have footage now. I mean, there's things we have seen with the bubble that have shown that.

I believe that things have been documented currently that might not be in circulation. But I think suppressed is more of a nefarious term that I would use. But I think there's some that it's being held classified. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that? Because, I mean, you have, we've documented, you know, with, LIDAR and with different scans, we have absolutely verified, you know, portals, you know, through that

triangle area. We've absolutely had, and that's been made public. So I think there's more to it than that. But, and I know the Bigelow era stuff has not all come out. Do you think it will eventually or is that just because it's government? I don't think. I probably not. Probably not.

Yeah. Yeah. You're probably right. Okay. Good question. Michelle. You got another one here. Perry here.

He says if you had the ultimate evidence. biological or otherwise, to whom would you present it? The greatest number of people possible, whatever would be the greatest way to get it out there to the world. Right here on Area 52. Yeah, that's what I want as many people. I don't want to guard the information. I want people. I want other minds thinking about it, people to be aware, talking, discussing, and all of us collectively to move forward and move upward and get new thinking on it.

Do you think there's any that any of that scientific evidence is currently being withheld because of the filming of the show? Do you think that any of that should be made public? I think so, yeah, there's some things that are just anecdotally held back. Just it's like, okay, well, maybe we're going to put this in later season. And that's, I mean, that's why I want to be here is to get some of this out. So, yeah, some of it for very simple and not very important reasons are held back. But I do also think that some of the big stuff is held back on a more governmental level. Really?

Yeah, because we're not all there all the time. There's nobody's there all the time. It's somewhat compartmentalized. And so depending on what experiments are happening, what days, some of the really big stuff doesn't come out till later. And I've had people behind the scenes tell me that some of the stuff maybe doesn't come out fully at all yet. And some of the bigger, more, I don't want to say scary, but more profound things, they kind of sit on and process like, what do we do with this information? So, um, so some of it, again, just for basic filming reasons, but some of the things happen

because again, this is a year round thing. You think there's like national security implications? Yeah, absolutely. Really? Absolutely. Yeah, 100% are 100% are. Do you even see some of that on the show? You'll see snippets that show that.

But yeah, there's absolutely. I mean, the, the first season, Travis had to break his NDAs to tell the Department of Defense like, hey, uh, there might be getting hacked here by either. foreign entities or foreign governments, and I got to break this NDA and say that. So there's absolutely things that are held back 100% are. Wow. Interesting. I'll be excited to hopefully find out what that is one day, maybe in person. Mm-hmm. All right. Probably something we touched on, but this says while working on the ranch, was there a fundamental biological theory that you felt was challenged? And I mean, this is by Thomas Tom 10.

I would assume decomposition being, you know, the big one, but was there a specific theory that you felt was being challenged? I think the big, yeah, the biggest one is the taphonomy, you know, the science of decomposition, both, you know, I mean, that even goes back to paleontological times, ancient times. Yeah, that would be the big thing of how things decompose and what happens postmortem, you know, the cow contorting into the dinosaur death pose. That's also a taffonomical scientific thing that. is being challenged the way the tendons and ligaments attach and the way they dry out it's a cut and dry way you can only fit a puzzle in a certain way that should not have happened and it seemed oh the cow spiral you know so that the taphonomy of the ranch absolutely challenged and also the existence of animals that shouldn't be there that's another biological presence that absolutely

challenges my my understanding of the modern world have you found any clues into the study of the tissue that might answer some of that, some of those questions? No, it just seems all frozen. What do you mean frozen? Any tissue samples we've checked, it's like it's dead. It's like it's frozen in time, but then it should be decomposing. If you have cells that are no longer moving, they're not, you know. There's no indicators telling you why it's not decomposing.

Yeah, external bacteria as well is not chomping on it. So the cells themselves are not and the external bacteria is not. And critters aren't either. And there's nothing, there's nothing that tells you why that is. There's no chemical. No. There's no radiation. There's no.

There's no. There's no presence of anything. Makes no sense. Yeah. Yeah. And again, and a scavenger shouldn't know. A scavenger should come along and say, here's something. What is it sense?

Yeah. When we see them on camera, when we have cameras on them, then they're like, huh, they kind of like back away. There's something about it. There's something that repulsives them. Something that they see that we can't see or feel or sense. Yeah. Wow, that's interesting. It just shows you how much we don't know.

This last question here by Majestif 12. What's the biggest misconception the public has about what's actually happening there? I think the perception is you go there. Well, you know, I would have said originally that, hey, all the stuff is happening all the time and that, you know, there's always UFOs and our stuff. And I would say, no, it's more staggered, but that's actually not true because the longer I've been there and longer these, longer these, uh, Brandon Fugel era experience have gone on. It has amped up. It has. There's, I've never been to the ranch where something has not happened.

How long do you go for when you go there? Um, I mean, it might be a day. It might be a week. Oh, and still. Yeah. Every single time I go there. There's always something. Every day that I go there, there's something that happens.

There's always something, something that we pick up, an experiment that there's always something strange. It always delivers for me. I know other people, but I mean, I'm looking to, you know, I'm coming at this from a biological and a paleontological approach, which is different, where if you're, I don't know, like if you're doing security, your job is to protect the people, make sure people are safe. And so things still happen to them, too. You know, and their phones are still getting hacked as well. But there has never been a time that I've been on the ranch where I haven't had several things happen, 100% of the time.

Wow. Very interesting indeed. Ben, if people want to get in touch with you or if they want to ask you questions or if they want to look at some of your work, like what's the best way to do that? So the best way is I run several YouTube channels. The best ones are desert lore, which I teach all kinds of ancient history into exploring it. archaeology, something like that, and Ben Woodruff Falconry, and that's not just falconry, it's all kinds of things. And then at the Hutchings Museum, I run that YouTube channel.

You can also find me on Facebook. And I always say, if you can't get a hold of me, just keep after me until you do. I'm super busy and scatterbrains, so just keep back from me until you reach me. Well, you've been a pleasure and a joy and a really, really, you've been just great at answering these questions for me. And obviously, I think putting me over the edge, piqued my curiosity about Skinwalker Ranch, just that much more were maybe the push that I needed to, uh, to investigate this for myself one day. Yeah, we've got to get you out there. Yeah, well, I appreciate you. I appreciate the

offer and I appreciate you coming here and sharing all this with us. Absolutely. Thanks for having me out. Thanks.