AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - The Beginning of REAL UFO Disclosure - Jesse Michels | DEBRIEFED ep. 77

Episode Date: February 27, 2026

In this episode, Jesse Michels joins me to break down the recent back and forth between Barack Obama and Donald Trump on aliens and UFOs, and what it really means when former and current presidents speak publicly about the phenomenon.We react in real time to the President’s latest tweet and unpack whether this is political theater, strategic signaling, or something much deeper.Jesse also shares a never been told story involving Harold Malmgren

This week's guest is none other than the American alchemist himself, Jesse Michaels. Now, wanted to come on here just to set up the way this podcast kind of played out. See, at the beginning of the podcast, Jesse and I, we talk about President Trump's statements in response to former President Barack Obama saying that aliens are real. And it kind of gets us talking about the current state of disclosure. Will Donald Trump be the president to disclose that aliens are real? what's going to come from this. And then somewhere around the one hour mark, our friends interrupt the podcast so graciously by informing us that President Trump has tweeted this call to action and the fact that he's going to be investigating and looking into UFOs, aliens, extraterrestrials,

UAP, etc. It was kind of a historic moment and we caught it on video. So I thought it'd just come on here to sort of quell any confusion that you might have. because we begin the podcast talking about the very thing that ends up happening a little bit later on. Now, Jesse also opens up about his relationship with Harold Malmgren and a really interesting story that he's never told before. So thank you for joining me today, and I hope you enjoy the podcast. So in 2009, I worked for supported living systems in Tucson, Arizona. So I was asleep at it. I like the night watchman.

and I looked in the cameras and all the people that I took care of I watched to make sure that like they didn't escape but they always did were outside looking at the sky I went outside in the entire sky and I made a report and I gave it to support living systems the next morning it's all logged down in it I have so this is the first time Jesse Michaels welcome back to the skiff oh thank you Chris how you doing always great to see you and to be in the skit

yeah good to have you man I'm so excited. You know, you're in town. Um, we just had GERB on the podcast too and we're all hanging out and then we're here to do the Montreal show for it's probably nothing, which is super exciting. Can't wait. It's going to be awesome. We have some very special guests. Yeah, we can announce it because that'll probably already, I'm sure, be around, but George St. Pierre. Yep. Uh, UAP Gurb. And then possibly some drop-ins. Yeah. I'm thinking maybe Amar. Maybe James Fox. Maybe James Fox. Yeah. And maybe some tall-ass alien-looking dudes walking around and top hats. But who knows?

That's speculation. It is. We're not going to go there. We're not going to speculate today. We're going to talk about facts only. That's right. No, zero speculation. Yeah.

Yeah, all facts. All right. You know, there's a few things that I wanted to talk to you about today. But one is what's your initial gut check reaction to everyone saying Trump's going to disclose UFOs. I love whatever is going on right now. I feel like we're in this like memetic warfare between Democrats and Republicans and presidents and ex-presidents. And it's all around upping the ante vis-a-vis this alien issue. And so Obama let out a thing, you know, last week on this podcast or whatever. Alien's real. They're real, but I haven't seen them.

and they're not being kept in, what is it? Area 51. There's no underground facility unless there's this enormous conspiracy, and they hit it from the president of the United States. What was the first question you wanted answered when you became president? Where are the aliens? Where are the aliens? And it was this-

Aliens. Yeah, they're real, but area 51. Sorry, that was my... So bad. It wasn't a horrible. I'm editing this. So, yeah. That's great, Chris.

Oh, thank you. I need to really stop doing it. You get the like, you know, he takes himself pretty seriously. Yeah. He's got. Obama. All right. That's enough.

But, uh, so he, obviously that felt very kind of choreographed. Like it was like he gave himself an out, you know, afterwards. you could say, oh, I was talking about the Fermi paradox, like, aliens, of course, are real in this very abstract sense. Yeah. But then he also cited area, like, cited Area 51, but kind of, like, forgot about Area 51. Forgot the name of Area 51? Forgot the name of Area 51. Then oddly specific, you know, denial of, like, aliens underground at Area 51.

Yeah. And a denial of the fact that there are underground bases at Area 51, which, you know, we're here with UAP Gerb. You know, it's a great, you know, documenter of these deep underground military bases, you know, you have the solder book about deep, like, that's a thing. It's definitely a thing there at Area 51. Louigi's here as well. Yeah. Who's doing the Bob movie, you know, I think he has a lot of amazing evidence around underground passages and the whole place being this mining, you know, like there being mining shafts there. So that was interesting. Categorably false. And then, and then you have his, his, um, DNA and his. And his, um, um, um, DNA and his. And his. Um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, and his. And his. And his. And his. And his. And his. And CIA director, both partaking in a movie where they implicitly or tacitly, age of disclosure, endorsing not only UFOs being real, but, you know, decades long, you know, crash retrieval programs and then hints of reverse engineering. Yeah. And specifically Clapper mentioning Area 51. That's right. Yeah. Tracking Area 50. UFOs at Area 51. Yeah. So you have them doing that. And to me, it almost felt like we're going to get there first.

Obama was going to get there first, but also prompt Trump, like almost provoke Trump. And, uh, you know, so you think it was a, it was a knowing, winningly sort of like tactic to, to get Trump to react. Could be because he wouldn't have, he wouldn't have walked it back though the next day. Would he have? Well, I, well, I don't know because I think he, if you're, if you're media savvy, which he is. Right. He only walked it back in the comments.

Well, you know that the comment isn't going to be as circulated as the initial thing. That's true. The initial thing got super circulated, then the little comment retraction thing. Only a few people saw. Everybody talked about it. And then Obama is also producing a documentary on Betty and Barney Hill, the first, you know, very well-known abductees in the U.S. in 1961 and has shown, I think, some longstanding interest. He's also discussed the three-body problem at times.

If you look at his media appearances leading up to that podcast, he's dropping hints left and right on Colbert. He talks about UFOs. They have full control over us, but is that better now? You're horrible. James Corden. And I'm actually being serious here, is that there are, there's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are. We can't explain how they moved their trajectory.

they did not have an easily explainable pattern. And so, you know, I think that people still take seriously trying to investigate and figure out what that is. He says, you know, there are things in our skies. We don't know how to classify. He's dropping hints. That was, I think, if you see that out of context, oh, it's a mistake. If you see it in context of his last, you know, 10 years of comments. The aliens won't let it happen.

You reveal all their secrets. They exercise strict control over us. Now, you know, there are a lot of people that are going to examine your facial expressions here. He was building up to that. And then you know that there's a lot of continuity between the Clinton's kind of intelligence apparatus and Obama's. And all those people are all over the UFO issue. In fact, Podesta was literally, you know, Obama's chief of staff. And maybe it was, yeah, it was Obama, I think, chief of staff.

And then also, obviously, you know, in the Clinton White House and I think it was Hillary's campaign managers. So there's definitely connectivity there. Loves pizza. Apparently loves pizza and hot dogs. But it's also been. Grape soda. Jesus Christ. But it's also been all over the UFO issue since the 90s and is in WikiLeaks emails and, you know, emails with Tom the Long.

Yeah, there's clearly a history. Yes. For him to play dumb as an insane move. It's an insane move, but it's also like that's where we're at with the whole political discourse is like it's all, it's all, it's the worldwide, you know, wrestling or whatever. Yeah, it's a whole show. It's a whole show, yeah. And the person interviewing him, forgive me, I don't know about him, but he's got like a pretty big following.

I guess he's like a political commentator is my best guess. I don't know. I didn't look any, I didn't look into him at all. I was so annoyingly frustrated with no follow-up there. It was absurd. Oh. Like, I mean, I'm trying to understand if I'm outside of the UFO space, do I even care for a follow-up? And I'm like, no, of course I do.

Of course, anyone would care. Yeah. I'm trying to think if it's only my UFO brain being like, oh, you know, why didn't he ask? Well, if you say they're real, you're also not really saying they're real based on some probabilistic Drake equation for me paradox thing. You're saying they're real. Yeah. And then the natural follow-up question is, sir, how do you know that? Literally, it's so basic.

Or what do you mean? Like, it's a very natural one. Well, I think it, I mean, that guy, you know, he kind of looks like he sells, like, real estate in West Hollywood or something. Like, he's got this, like, slicks out. And he's in this sort of machine of. Pre-approved questions probably. Pre-approved questions for sure. Like, where it's like, it's so obvious Obama knows what's coming.

And then he's in that sort of. of factory you look at his other videos and it's all stuff to kind of drum up the base on the left wing and I'm not saying that's you know monopolized by the left wing that's a thing on the right wing too it's this machine right and I don't I think you are running a program when you're in that media complex I don't think you're thinking on the fly and I don't think you're thinking about you know ontologically you know deep questions you're not actually interviewing no yeah it's a it's it's a it's a it's a it's a It's all a staged thing. Yeah, it's like a media trained sort of, yeah, exactly.

It's a performance. And you even see people like Tucker Carlson who come from that world who are now, I think, becoming a little bit more like impromptu and independent. You still see them ask questions in a way where it's like, so you're saying, you know, and it's like it's all good. You're not in legacy media anymore. What are you AP, you know, like these type of questions or, like I still get frustrated when I see this on legacy media, like, how long are we going to beat this horse until we stop,

like, until we move on to the next sort of, you know, layer of the onion? Well, that's what I find frustrating about the whole political conversation. And even people who are into UFO, quote unquote, disclosure, who are tracking the political conversation in this, like, hypervigilant way, I understand it for people like David Grush and other whistleblowers who are like, I went out on a limb and my government is gaslighting me. And then simultaneously, you have all these people who are like fans of the UFO culture. And they're track, me too, but you're tracking the statements of these, you know, politicians like you're hanging on their every word. Yeah.

You know, and it's like, that's just, I think we just got disclosure. And it's like, what do you mean? Like, what is it? The guy just literally like uttered a cryptic sentence that is clearly like meant to be retractable. and like be a dog whistle, and you're saying that that's disclosure. Yeah. It goes to these other kind of question,

deeper questions of like, even if you were to unveil a craft with like, you know, heavy elements with weird isotope ratios and like electrogravitic propulsion and all these other kind of crazy exotic features, that would be get a thousand more questions, let alone the cryptic high level statement, right?

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, no, fair. And I think that, you know, him doing it so sort of flippant, was also very calculated as a sort of maybe even a litmus test

or some type of hey let's see what happens is it really that bad does it really go viral does it like just as a media training event it's a litmus test as was Lara Trump

who is you know Trump's daughter in law she you know teasing it saying like her doing it was for the clicks I think oh I don't think so at all I think she was clearly you I don't think you say that unless you're coordinating with your family around it.

Oh, I think there might be some truth to it, but her saying it. Next question. What do you or the president know about UFOs? Can you share? I hear that the president has something in the queue to share with us about all of this. Now, truth be told, I'm trying to remember how long ago it was. It may have been right after he left office after the first term. I remember Eric being like,

what like what can you tell us and he was a little uh little hesitant to give us any real info which makes me think like he's got a lot of info out there and he's waiting for the right time to drop it and maybe this is going to be the time because i keep seeing all these stories about how he's got some like UFO speech that he's got queued up and was for the cliques is what i mean oh i think it's both yeah i think it's totally both i mean i think this whatever happened today with trump you know that was interesting. I think shows that it's, you know, for both. I think they're thinking about this sort of stuff.

What do you say? Something they got a lot of attention this week. Barack Obama said that aliens are real. Have you seen any evidence of non-human visitors to Earth? Well, he gave classified information. He's not supposed to be doing that. So aliens are real. Well, I don't know if they're real or not.

I can tell you he gave classified information. He's not supposed to be doing that. He made a big mistake. He took it out of classified information. No, I don't have an opinion on it. I never talk about it. A lot of people do. A lot of people believe it.

Do you believe it, Peter? Well, the president can declassify anything that he wants to. So if you want to make an announcement. I may get him out of trouble by declassified. We know illegal aliens, really. Yeah, illegal. Only illegals. He said, well, he was really quite.

He's revealing classified information. Yes. That's what he said. He said, yeah, he goes, he's a revealing. Classified. Okay. Which is amazing. And by the way, like, you know, as much as I just critiqued, like, people who hang on politicians everywhere. Sure.

I'm loving what's happening. That he just admitted to aliens. The ante is being upped on both sides. And he did any totally, if you read that statement, it's, um, you're saying that aliens are classified. Why would aliens ever be classified if they were fake and they weren't real? Yeah. And so, and then maybe you could get away with saying, well, you revealed the, you know, Area 51 underground base thing. but he actually said no to that. He denied it.

So shout up to the reporter because the reporter probably knew full well that Obama had retracted that statement and sort of walked it back for him not to follow up and be like, hey, Obama said it was real. He was rage baiting him. Yeah. A hundred percent in real time. And so, you know, you see like Trump's handlers in the back and his spokesperson just kind of like. Yeah, you see Carolyn Levitt's face. Oh, this is going to be. She's smiling and her smile is slowly fading because she knows the mountain of, you know, just incumptu. coherent people that are going to follow up with her is going to be a staggering. She's literally the White House press secretary and has to like field all the questions. I can't imagine.

Every single one's going to be about this. It's going to be hilarious. Yeah, but you know, it's also hilarious that they make it a big joke always. And that, like, there's something, you know what there is? There's something about that stage that lends itself to a bit of a comedy scene. Yeah. You have this, you have this stage, you have this small little gallery of people. they're all in their own right witty.

There's this banter among them. There's like this camaraderie because they see each other in the same fucking room every day, talking to asking the same questions, getting no answers. And they're all a bit cynical. And they all have like this sense of humor. So that whole room lends itself to like, yeah, any of the wisest cracks will get a chuckle from the crowd. And so that must be very tempting to save face, to, fall back on as a crutch in a social environment if you're on stage and things get a little tense,

you know, fall back to a joke. Obama was a master at that, say what you want about his presidency, but he was really good at controlling the room and adding levity through, you know, slight humor. But that stage in that room where all these press briefings happen, to me is like you'll never hear the word aliens without hearing a chuckle in that room. because of the way that room is and the energy in that room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like going to the Tonight Show. Yeah, right, right. And saying, do you believe in aliens?

Laft track, please. Perfectly reasonable question. Laf track. Yeah. Everyone's laughing. And so I don't know if we'll ever get a serious conversation about aliens in that room. I want to do a podcast with Trump. I would love to talk to him about that and talk to him about his uncle who was at the MIT Rad Lab.

Yeah. Who is doing. And talk to him about his time. traveling seven foot tall sun that's right baron the adventures of baron trump baron trump where don is like his you know guide in the time travel adventures or whatever yeah i i wonder if he's read that book that'd be interesting to find out it would be he'd be an interesting guest uh the son yeah yeah baron would be cool i bet you baron's into ufos probably or like tangentially yeah i feel like you know or call of duty or call of d yeah yeah he knows apparently he hooks trump up with like all

the podcast circuit stuff. Oh, that's why he did Nelk and... And Logan Paul. Right. Probably, yeah. Interesting. Also, Trump loves the UFC. Trump loves the UFC.

Which is a weird thing. Yeah, he loves... He doesn't have a fight on the lawnhouse. They are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. We're not getting UFOs on the White House lawn, but we're getting a bunch of dudes fighting each other.

So, hey, next best thing. Well, we might be headed towards World War III right now. now, it's just, you know, and so it's like everything with like fuel in it is being sent to the Middle East as we speak. Way to bring down the pod. I'm sorry, man. Yeah, you were on a light mood. I was just saying, though, like, you know, on a more serious note, where these things seem to,

no, where these things seem to, like, show up and intervene is like moments of high entropy and crisis. And actually, remote viewers seem to be able to remote view areas of high entropy better as well. And so look at where we're. you just had Ross Colthard on and he talked about, you know, now being a more unstable time than during the Cuban Missile Crisis, I don't know if I agree with that per se, but we are in a extremely heightened. I mean, I agree with this general sentiment, which is like we're in a multipolar nuclear world

that is crumbling as we speak. And so I wonder if it's almost like funny and makes so much sense that UFO disclosure is happening as a side comment. by these various presidents in the form of podcasts and press conferences as the world, uh, as AI accelerates, the world seems to, the environment, the end of time. It feels like, yeah. Yeah, geopolitical, you know, tension. The Epstein files, you know. Yeah, yeah, which like the, the, the, I think the low resolution, like, dumb take on it is,

like, it's, it's all just a smoke screen, you know, distraction against the Epstein files. Show me more files, which is great. Or the other way around. Let's see more files. But what about the like deeper thought of like, what if there's a convergence between like some of these metaphysical bizarre truths that are at times extremely dark that come around speculation of NHI? Okay. And, you know, in the spooky science they're in, by the way. And then all the stuff coming out of the Epstein revelations, which, you know, some of these emails are just so weird.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, you know, what if there's just one person like this, this small cabal just kind of. laundering all this up from like some some Vatican basement or something. Who knows? Maybe. You know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't put it past them. Yeah, that's interesting.

Do you think Trump will be our disclosure president? I think that he has more of a chance to be. There's a higher likelihood there than a lot of past presidents. I think Biden was never really in charge. There was like an apparatus behind him that was in charge. So. Stop. Not Joe.

Yeah. No. I'm not going to believe that. No, he's actually still fit to run. No, yeah. After that one debate, did you ever see the video of Joe Biden walking and then the Boston Dynamics robot walking? Yeah, I have.

I have. They're like, new conspiracy. It's identical. He's a skin suit. Yeah, it's hilarious. I'm so there was like he was you know if you're just calling like the deep state like this apparatus of like, you know, low agency bureaucrats. Like he was a figurehead that sat atop that. Yeah.

Trump is ax alone and he will do things like despite his cabinet being against him. And he will go to Venezuela and he'll say we're going to take Greenland. And so if there was ever a guy who is kind of higher volatility, but like extreme. extremely independent-minded and not kind of caught in these, you know, the local incentive games or whatever, you know, really can can rise above that in a way that can be scary but also, you know, exciting. It's him. So I think there's a chance. There is a chance. I'm thinking now how I'd change up my strategy if I was Obama. Instead of being like, aliens are real, I would be like, Donald Trump will never tell you about aliens. Yeah, but you won't. Exactly. Because then he'll go,

we got aliens. A lot of aliens. A lot of aliens. It'll be like, not those aliens. Those are bad. ICE is taking care of those aliens. But, you know, no, no. And Obama.

You want to come here on your spaceship. You got to do it the legal way. Yeah, yeah. No, Obama's move, it should be like, you know, my presidency, we made more progress on this issue. On the UFO issue. Yeah, 100%. You got to poke a little harder.

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And also, you know, what will galvanize the country or create momentum. Right, right. And so I think there's a chance. There is a chance. There's definitely a chance. And my conviction level grows higher. It was pretty low at one point because I was like, there's no way they're letting this guy, you know. And I'm like, this guy's not a puppet.

He is a puppet. They're all puppets. But he's not the puppet that they're looking for. I don't think. He's a little too, you know, too much of a loose cannon to fit in that role. But then for me, you know, I look back at this Spielberg thing and I can't shake it. And I know it's my pet theory and it's a little absurd. But also, I don't think it's absurd.

I think it's. Spielberg has a history of, you know, being really close to some UFO truths. Yeah. Let's say. And for all of that to be culminating at the same time for the people in Congress who, you know, once this, the second they established this new sort of UAPTF, they're tweeting out the new title of Spielberg's movie with like cryptic tweets of like, oh, just wait, you're not ready for this. And I'm like ready for what? The fucking Spielberg movie? Like, what are you talking about?

Yeah, yeah. And then immediately the, this huge flap, this flap that goes worldwide. It happens in Jersey with all these drones and, you know, who knows what was going on there. But immediately after they start filming in Jersey. Yep. And I can't help but think somehow that's related to like moving something and that something's going to be in the movie. Yeah. And that that'll be Trump's pedestal that they're propping him up for.

for. And they're like, here, here's a, here's an alley-oop. We got this and you're going to come out and Spielberg's going to be here and people are going to have shoving their faces full of popcorn. And it's going to be the American. We're going to have stealth bombers fly overhead and maybe unveil the TR3B at the same time and be like, we got them. Aliens are here, you know, I don't know. That's, that's my America, but I'm Canadian. So, you know, I, you know, that might be right. I don't think the Spielberg camp would be coordinating with Trump, though, would be my guess. No, unknowingly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, Trump would probably be briefed in the last, like, few days. And then would probably, you know, go out on truth social and, like, spill the beans prior. Right, right, right, right, right. More of his style. But, yeah, the team working behind it all, you know, it's in the grand scheme of things, if that happened, I wouldn't be mad. If it, if that's how we got disclosure, quote unquote, was this film features a real UFO, I would, I'd be like, hats off. You're forgiven, you know, you're forgiven. Yeah, the trillions of dollars, forget about it. You guys just did the best, coolest thing ever.

Freaking out the entire mainland United States that we were being invaded by, you know, foreign adversary and there were drones over. It's okay. Yeah, but we got John Krasinski acting in a UFO or whatever. Is he in the movie? I don't know. Oh, he might, I think, well, Emily Blunt is. Emily Blunt. Oh, they're a thing. So. So you might be doing it a little. But maybe they're both in it. How cool would that be to find out you were like in a UFO and you didn't know it? That would be insane.

Like that was the set. That was like this crashed UFO and they have to act in it and stuff. Guys, this was recovered in a deep sea mission. They're like, what? They're pulling real bodies out of it. They're like, wow, this is so cool. Yeah, wild. And also, I mean, there's this other Jerry, Jerry Bruchheimer.

Yeah, Jerry Bruchheimer. Yeah, his movie. movies coming out soon, which was that, you know, people, there are whispers that what, Grosch was a part of, uh, the consulting. Yep. So that'll be interesting. I'm sure a lot of UFO people are also going to be looking at that with a keen eye. Yeah, I mean, you've got a, especially for that. I mean, with Spielberg, we're reading the tea leaves on that movie. You have to think that very high fidelity stuff ideally is going to come out. Yeah. Just knowing Dave, you know, I think he's, it has an extreme attention to detail. I do think he wants to get as much of this

stuff out as he can. Yeah, that's a good point. It's also interesting to think, because Spielberg had some pretty heavy-hitting consultants for close encounters. Well, he had Jacques Valet. He had Jalen Heinek. He was pretty much the go-to guy. Who was the go-to guy?

Who do you think he used for this movie? And sorry, yeah, Jack-Belais was a consultant. Then Francois-Fo played John Flai. So for this movie, I don't know. Right? But he said, it's funny. He'll answer things like Colbert asked him about aliens. And he said, what if they're not from a distant planet?

What if they're us from the future coming back to monitor our own civilization? Wouldn't that make more sense? He's been watching the podcasts. Yeah, either that or like the dude has some really good sources. E.T. like locking on with the bee, the boy locking on with the being, sounds a lot like what Jake Barber experienced, that sort of like synchronization of like, you know, entities or what like, you know, Jordan Josek talks about or all these Skywatcher psionic assets.

talk about the lock on, you know, and there's sort of this like harmonization, consciousness, mind-meld phenomena. Yeah. Or close encounters of the third kind, you know, there is a time travel element where the soldiers walk outside, you know, or the, the two crates with, I think, let's say, TRW and Skunk Works, which is wild. So, yeah, he's got to know some stuff. Back to the future, too. Back to the future producer. He's definitely, he definitely knows some stuff. I mean, there has to be, because you watch, I watch, I watch. Do you ever see that interview with James Cameron? And was it George Romero or Guillermo del Toro?

I think it was Guillermo. I think I have where Guillermo Toro talks about his UFO experience. Yeah. And it's it's clear as day. You're like, oh, he experienced something. And you could see Cameron's interest in it too is kind of interesting because Cameron is famously known for making the abyss, which, you know, in the inner circles of the I see, apparently, that is one of the movies that is closest to the truth. other than perhaps close encounters.

Yep. Which is interesting because it happens also in like the Bermuda area, you know, and that the craft are actually the beings. The beings are the craft type deal and like very interesting concepts. But yeah, Hollywood's got their finger on that pulse. And probably, I mean, I'd have to imagine in some way directed to give us some type of softening. Yeah. For sure. On a very small scale, even.

That can happen also in this distributed loose way by just planting these guys. There's a guy named Chase Brandon who wrote an amazing book I love called Cryptos Conundrum. Oh, I have that book. It's a student name. Yeah, I bought it because you suggested I haven't read it yet, though. It's really interesting. And I think he quotes Francis Bacon at the beginning of the book and he says, you know, some truths are so strange, you have to hide them in fiction.

And then he goes on to tell this story of this MJ12, like majestic 12-like committee. essentially forming where beings, non-human beings, show up to each of them, knowing details of their lives that they've never told anybody and coordinating them. And then there's this sacred object that's given to them that involves, it involves literally like reading timelines. And I brought that up in the context of my interview

with Harold Malmgren because the main character in that book is a guy named Chalmers, who's this mathematical whiz. And that committee comes out of the OSA, which is an OSS office. shoot, which is pre-CIA from 1942 to 1945 in World War II. And Chalmers, to me, reminds me a lot of Malmgren because, so Malmgren is this, you know, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford Advisor, who was just this prodigy, who was, you know, one of MacDamara's Wiz Kids, so to speak, he was one of the, you know, kind of earliest strategists who was kind of plucked. And like youngest, too. He was 27 years old when he

was like, when he diffused the, uh, Curtis LeMay, moms away. Yeah, exactly. During the Cuban missile crisis. Pretty wild and helped talk him down. So, yeah, that book is really interesting. But that's all to get back to Chase Brandon, who is this Hollywood liaison, who was clearly kind of seeding stuff in Hollywood. And I think he had a project with Stanton Friedman in Hollywood. And a lot of that stuff, even Jamie Shandera was doing stuff. And I think there's been a long history of, I think, that connectivity. If you're one of these agencies, you're obviously, obviously, you know, one of your jobs is not only to report on things that are being put out there, but it's to control the things that are being put out there. That's kind of what they're doing. They're not just doing info collection. It's counterintelligence. They're, you know, they have whole departments. And so do you ever feel like during your career as a interviewer and a content creator, podcaster, or whatever you want to call it, have you ever felt, a subtle presence in maybe the guests or maybe the guests that are being suggested to you.

Has that ever, obviously it's crossed your mind. I know it's crossed mine and anyone who's in this space, it's crossed their minds too. Yeah. But have you ever felt a gentle nudge? And sometimes you go, oh, that might have been them. Like, have you ever felt that? I think I've felt it a bunch and it's often not gentle. It's like more overt.

and then you have to have kind of like an allergic reaction to that where you're like like what's an example without giving detail like somebody would tell you something really crazy and then like as like sort of passage material stuff yeah like i was telling you i had um you know i did this interview and the spooky guy showed up to my studio with right these other people and starts telling me he goes you want to know that you know where they capture you know uh experiencers it's a it's a program called star trap and they go to moofan organizations and that's where where it's the honey trap for, you know, and he's telling me these things, like, like, just like, you know, right out of the gates. And I'm like, dude, like, I don't, I don't know you. Like, what? Take me out to dinner first. Yeah, before you fuck me.

Yeah, it's like, what is this? Yeah, it's so weird. So certain things like that you're like, what's going on. And I think you can do it back is the funny thing where you can say, oh, I wonder if I can bump up against the contours of what this person actually represents as far as truth-seeking and, like, trigger a thing, you know, where you send a thing about some, you know, say they're, like, trying to steer you away from the science. You send something about, like, you know, the towns of brown and the anti-gravity stuff.

And if they're, like, extremely dogmatically opposed or try to, like, steer you clear, you're like, I'm going to clock that. We're getting warmer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've got to do it back to them. That's a good point. And it's only for your own, you know, edification to, like, be able to navigate this fucking spooky hall of mirrors world that we're in yeah i mean i suppose the same could be said for like

the biggest debunkers you could just look at what they debunk the the most furiously and be like oh yeah yeah that's probably real totally or something there is very sensitive that's right you know or the debunk is uh it's a mystery it's too easy of a debunk too easy of a debunk so it's like a layup yeah yeah but then that you know that always points me back to balo czar because the most respected, quote unquote, people who have a voice and who have something to say about this topic deny Bob. And yet he's said some of the most, like, credible stuff. Like, in terms of, like, his, you know, he's predicted things.

I'm not talking about Element 115, like, everybody thinks. It's not that, but he's, you know, the smaller details time and time again, you go, oh, Bob was right, Bob was right, Bob was right. And for for people to just flat out deny him, I mean, for me, that's one of those topics. That's one of those litmus tests that you go, how do you feel about Bob? And if they go, you know, I don't got to read on him. He sounds truthful. Then I'm like, okay.

But if they go, no, he's a bullshit or he's a con artist, I go, oh, that's a red flag for me. It's a total red flag. Well, it's also a red flag if you, because if they, if they bring up the kind of, you know, basic, you know, objections, I think that's actually a reason. Sure, yeah. But then if you come back at them with rebuttals, good rebuttals, and then they're not even processing that, you're like, okay, what's the undetectable dark matter that is sort of motivating them? But I think after Luigi's amazing movie, S4, it's going to be, to me, it's going to be very, very hard to argue that he was not an employee at Area 51 at S4. Yeah.

You can then debate, you know, the science of the craft. and what the craft was and was he seeing what that I think is more reasonable. Yeah. The other stuff, like just just saying that he wasn't there, I think is actually insane. Like you all, after this movie, I think. Well, I think saying that he's lying is insane. That's my take. Oh, I agree too.

I agree. He's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think he's lying. In fact, I would say he's not lying. Yeah, but you were also saying that from the vantage point of you've met him. Sure. Yep.

And I do think that gives you kind of in. Yes, but to call him a liar for lying's sake is an insane claim. To question the tech is fine. He questions it too. Like there's no debunk there either. When you're like, oh, you know, you're explaining it wrong. It's like, I don't know. Shit doesn't exist.

How do you want me to explain it? He's not even convinced his gravity. Like he's like clearly open-minded to whatever it is and very curious about it. Yeah. And I have had the, you know, surreal experience of meeting him recently at our show in Austin and brought up a couple of those things where, you know, it's kind of what I described, where it's like, I want to poke at the edges. And he definitely satisfied me as far as. Also, the soft signals of being nonchalant, not having anything to prove. I felt Dan Sherman, who went on my podcast, was very similar. Yes.

Where he was just like, like, I would bring up stuff that other people corroborated around his story, like this guy, erotic who did this FOIA request around Project Preserve Destiny, which was only a program associated with his book above black, which he sent to the Air Force, and they forwarded it to the NSA, implying that it's a real program under the purview of the NSA, who cited national security afterwards and, you know, said we can neither confirm nor deny or whatever. And I brought this up to Sherman. He was like, oh, yeah, cool. Like, he didn't, you know, I think if you were lying, you'd be like, see.

You extend it. That's another great tell, too, is that when someone's telling the truth, they won't extrapolate. They won't extend anything. They'll give you very short answers. And Bob, he's a man of few words. Yeah. You talk to him and you're like, hey, what about, have you ever thought of that? And he goes, I don't know.

I don't know. That's like the extent of what you're going to get out of them. Like you have to like, you got to pull information out of him, right? But he's not one to go on a riff and just be like, well, you know, you know. It might also be that like he's not speculating. He doesn't care to. He hates it. He doesn't like being put in a position that he has to speculate.

It makes him uncomfortable. So like all of these softels, like you said, are really help you convince you. They're like, oh, nice. He's telling the truth. Whatever that truth is, I don't know that to be the truth of the universe. Yeah. But I know that what he was shown, that's what he's telling me. I wonder if you were to pull, you know, how long.

It's almost been 40 years since he came out. I wonder if you were to pull all of the private interactions that he's at, like all the people who've had private interactions with him since then. And he were like, because I'm sure they all bring it up, right? That's what he's known for. He's like this walking advertisement for this reverse engineering program. So you, if you were to poll them and be like, what do you think about his like authenticity? I'm sure it would be like 99%. Yeah, like he was just a dude. You know, it was amazing. Yeah, my buddy who reads body language. Yeah, yeah. There's two things he will not. do on camera is the moon landing press conference and Bob Lazar. So many questions there. I guess why both? So the moon landing? Yeah. Because he it's so blatantly obvious that something's up. Thank you. It's so obvious. So he won't do it because it's a sacred cow of like American history or whatever? No, he's Canadian. So then what? He doesn't want to have to deal with the fallout. Yeah. Of his audit, because he's, he's a, like, big skeptic of everything. He's a mentalist, friend of mine. He's skeptical on most things, like 99% of things. And he's

finally coming around to UFOs because he, uh, you know, he read Grush's body language. I think I saw this video. Yeah. Exactly. He's done, he's done a few of them and he's really good at it. Yep. Um, but he won't do Bob. Yep. And he told me, uh, he did actually do Bob on Patreon. We have a little half episode. I was like, you're going to do it on the Patreon. and I had him do it. So we have this head tilt with an eyebrow flash and the one side, is it just a one side of the mouth that does this, like a quick this? Look, man, this is what I'm telling you?

Like, this is all that mean. Okay, so, so the contempt looks like that. Contempt looks one side of your mouth going like this. So contempt is when you're looking down on something or judging something. So, but that's not, it doesn't make sense in this context. It doesn't make sense. Okay, there's something there. It's called an exclusion qualifier.

everybody I've run into was very positive. There might have been some negative. There might have been some negative that he's aware of. But exclusion qualifiers is like when you ask me a question and I focus in on part of the answer, so by saying something like basically or essentially or literally like he just did to say, everybody I've run into was very positive. So that's, listen, that's as close as I could come to being like there's something that's being concealed. Okay.

So if the people you ran into were positive, who is? But the whole time he was like, yeah, I, with Bob, it's interesting because he says his, his facial expression doesn't match what he's saying. And it's inconsistent. And that usually is the tell of someone who has, like, maybe some type of like autism or like, not full-fledged off, but like, just a little more sort of, I guess, left-brained or, yeah. And just analytical and sort of analyzing things in a different way. So he's not really. using any emotion when he speaks. And so you can't really read him. And that coupled with the fact that he doesn't think he's lying. And, you know, and he just goes like, yeah. But he also, he did read Travis Walton. And he's like, whatever this guy's saying, put him in a Hollywood movie if he's lying.

Whoa. Yeah. Wild. He's like, definitely traumatic experience for this guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I won't do Bob because he's like, hey, you know, and he's a big skeptic. He just won't do. But he also basically believes the story.

But then he also says that it's like... I don't think he's comfortable. I don't want to speak for him, but I don't think he's comfortable in believing. Okay. Interesting. I think it rubs up, you know, it rubs a skeptic around.

Well, he should, he should do the, the Neil Armstrong press conference. I don't know why he won't do that. Yeah. That's, I mean, at this point,

everything's unraveling as far as like... Because it's so obvious, yes. The mainstream narrative of everything is like, you have pizza gators being vindicated. So just do it. I think the moon landing stuff is touchy because it's sort of one dimension sort of removed from flat earth is moon landing deniers. And it gets it gets murky there because it's not exactly denying the moon landing. It's denying perhaps aspects of the moon landing that were presented to us. Do you know what I mean? And questioning that during a time we're heightened. tensions with Russia and there was a race and all these things. So there is grounds to question a phone call from a landline to the moon and the type of vehicles. Like that is a question. There's a lot. There's a lot of interesting stuff. Absolutely. But I do think there's an interesting midpoint, too,

that is not we fake the moon landing. But, you know, it's also not that the prima facie story is only real and it involves UFOs. Right. And if we now have Beatrice Villareal, who's a Stockholm University, PhD in physics, or in astrophysics, rather. And she has done this amazing study of these plates from the Palomar Observatory, which was one of the most prominent in-use observatories in the 40s and 50s, from 1949 to 1957. Sputnik was not a thing until 1957, no satellites up in space. And she has 10 to 15,000 a year, roughly, of the...

These transients, these light-reflecting objects, which are mirror-like. Metallic. And by the way, seem to... Seem to be flat. Seemed to be flat. And are also camping out, you know, predominantly the transients where the sun is facing the Earth. So there's a drop-off in the Earth's shadow, which you would expect if it were a real object and not a chemical defect or a stain or some issue with the plates, which is what a lot. of the detractors might say. Exactly, because you'll see that same reflection in the darkness.

Yeah, you have intelligent plate defects that are playing favor. It makes literally no sense. If the UAP, UFO, whatever they were, those craft, those transients were to stay in the shadows, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We wouldn't be having this conversation. Which is so wild. Yes. Like, you know, you wonder if maybe they knew that. But you also wonder then if you are traveling out of space. So these are roughly in geo, I think it's like 35,000 kilometers plus in space, but still in Earth's orbit. And if you're traveling into deep space, you might encounter some of these objects if they're really showing up that many times. That's a pretty remarkable number, not to mention going back to Harold Malmgren, he literally talks about

Blue Guil Triple Prime, which occurred actually, I believe it was October of 1963. I think it was around the Cuban Missile Crisis. And it was Johnston Atoll, the Marshall Islands. And the whole goal of the Starfish Prime series of high-altitude nuclear tests was to rip a hole in the Van Allen belt, which is essentially the Earth's magnetosphere, which guards us from neutron bombardment

and solar radiation. And so what happens when he poke a hole in the magnetosphere of the Earth? What comes out? UFOs that Harold Malmgren held in his hands. Yeah. That he was,

Lawrence Preston Geis, who's Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather, crazy fact, who was head of the Atomic Energy Commission, Albuquerque branch, literally hands to Malmgram,

and he holds the UFO in his hand. So if that's what's coming out, and you have other, by the way, people coming out around the Starfish Prime series saying that they've seen stuff. There's this guy,

David Noble White Crow, who saw something. In fact, Bob Jacobs, who has a famous story in 1960s, when he stationed at Vandenberg Air Force Base was also stationed at the Marshall Islands

during those tests and there was all... I know that. Yes, and I have them on video saying that there was rumor that things were being shot out of the sky and he said that UFOs were being used as a cover for something else at the time. But then you kind of quiz them on those things and he's like, I have no idea, I don't know.

So it's like, so even like the water cooler talk was that UFOs were like appearing around this stuff. Not to mention, there is a foyer-re requirement to the NNSA, the National Nuclear Security Administration, saying, I want all of the records around UAPs, UAVs, UFOs, literally every acronym related to UFO around the Starfish Prime series. And they say, we cannot, UFOB is exact, they say we cannot get into this. The responsive records have been sent to the relevant subject matter expert, which is not a normal, neither confirmed nor deny.

It's saying there are responsive records. But they're going to someone specifically. With those acronyms on them. So you get into these trip, going back to the moon landing thing, then you have, you know, possible audio that's a little weird. You have the Gemini missions

where some stuff might have occurred in electromagnetic outage. And so... A lot of audio, actually. There's a lot of audio of, like, astronauts throughout the years. And astronauts coming back from space and being like, my eye saw a giant snake

or like whatever. Totally. You know, there's a lot of, Gordon Cooper, you know, take that for whatever that's for, but that guy drones on and on about UFOs. And he was the first guy to spend a lot of time in Earth's orbit. Yeah. He didn't go to the moon, but he spent, you know, his mercury missions. Yeah. Yeah. He talks about Mars, talks about, yeah. So the point is you have this really interesting fact pattern, and then you have this, you know, debrief press conference of these three guys that look like they're in a hostage video. And it looks like,

If you do the before and after, this like these studly American heroes and like these. Then turned out to be alcoholics and like depressed. Alcoholics who make all sorts of weird cryptic statements constantly. I mean, Buzz Aldrin is just like, every one of his interviews is gold. Little girl asks him, did we go to the movie? Well, well, we didn't. It just couldn't lie to her. It's either that or him getting triggered and punching Bart Cybrel in the face.

It's one or the other. It's like, I'm sure your body language. If he went through his whole fact pattern, he had part stuff. That's funny. He might have deserved it. If he looked through the entire fact pattern, he'd be like, that guy's hiding something. And then by the way, apparently he was a pilot in World War II, Buzz Aldrin. And I think he saw a UFO, according to his sister.

He saw a UFO, I think, you know, around Japan. Wow. And James Fox chased him around the world for a year and almost interviewed him in Monte Carlo, in Monaco. And Buzz Aldrin, about UFOs, obviously, because James Fox. And Buzz Aldrin goes, what would my testimony do? Which is, to me, it's like, obviously you know something about UFOs. And then all these astronauts sign NDAs. You have Tim Taylor's an NASA Mission Controller who talks about, you know, astronauts seeing stuff in space.

You have Dr. E. Whiteley, who is the goddaughter of Leonov, who is one of the fathers of the Russian rocketry program. And she says she's like, you know, a psychologist for a lot of these high-performing astronauts and they all see stuff. So it's, again, it's like so much smoke. There's no fire, but so much smoke. And, you know, in a few weeks after the, you know, the Epstein revelations, also so much smoke, but, you know, we've been gaslit for so long. That's true. Yeah, everybody is getting their conspiracy theory, you know, all the conspiracy theories are turning out to be true except for Flat Earth. Flat Earthers got it really rough this time around.

There's like, everyone? Every single one? Like, where's our files? What about the dome? Really? It's not real? Yeah, yeah. Like, sorry, yeah, all of them, every single one.

Chubacabra, all of them, you know, but not that. Sorry. Yeah. Poor them. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, you're really, you're really, like, bullish on the moon stuff. I'm bullish on there being more to the story.

And there being some optical management around it. I'm not bullish on like us definitely not having gone to the moon. All right. Trillion dollar budget. What one test would you do to sort of get more information from the moon? It's such an interesting question. I mean. Within our capability.

I'd put it into going back to the moon. Because look at what SpaceX is spending currently. Do you know like, so Starship is. is there, you know, it's like 150, 200-ton payload capacity rocket. And it's twice the size of the Saturn rockets. And what it has to do to go to the moon, and there's even a Werner von Braun speech about this from the 50s being like, we need two stages to get to the moon.

Yeah, I saw that. And so what we have to do with Starship? That was one of birth's, like, big sort of claims to why we never went. Bart's debunks have issues too. And like, so again, I don't want to like conclusively say that we haven't gone to the moon. but it seems awfully hard for something that we handily did. And then there's neutron, but, you know, once you get outside of the Van Allen radiation belt, you're completely bombarded with neutrons.

Like, it's, you know, the cosmic radiation is extremely high and hard to withstand. So I guess the easy, the kind of dumb, you know, answer to your question is, like, I would try to recreate it, like, with current rocket technology. And then, and then, again, I think the midpoint. maybe more realistic conspiracy is, okay, maybe you do end up going to the moon, but maybe you see some really interesting shit along the way. Yeah, that's probably true. Probably, yeah, you probably don't even have to leave the planet to, like, start seeing some trippy stuff. I think as soon as you get to, like, a threshold, you're probably experiencing some stuff.

And not only are you seeing, you know, probably like plasma beings and all sorts of other, like, wild and trippy, you know, entities, you're probably going through this crazy ontological. shift that so many astronauts have had having this perspective from Earth being, you know, what is it called, their perspective effect? The overview effect, yeah. Which literally causes conversion experiences in many of the people who experience where it's like, look at all these tribal people fighting when we're all just the same. And then you have to ask yourself, is there something interesting about space and its effect on consciousness?

If you take some of the parapsychology stuff at face value and the idea, and the idea, that we're not just, you know, in this kind of, you know, floating through Cartesian space. There's some sort of like interaction between mind and matter. Of course. And the weightlessness has probably plays a big factor into, you know, some of that too. You feel this as well when you're doing like sound deprivation tanks. You're feeling this feeling of weightlessness. And that feeling is actually something that anchors you to reality, being full of weight,

like feeling your weight on a bed, feeling your weight while you're, you're walking, these things anchor you here. And so the less senses you have that anchors you hear, I think probably the easier it is to like have these out of body astral projection experiences. Well, John Lilly, you know, CIA guy who writes about human programming and metaprogramming literally invented the isolation tank to essentially mimic weightlessness and ends up speaking to this solid state entity, SSI. And it says, you know, it needs more compute or something. or silicon to like manifest itself and then you have to ask is he sort of summoning AI in early version.

Yeah, you shouldn't have done the oxygen deprivation tank. Yeah, that's right. He was doing ketamine and all this sorts of crazy shit. But, but, but you have Werner von Braun literally on record telling Edgar Mitchell, or I don't want to say on record, apocryphal story, but apocryphal story that seems somewhat corroborated. Not only is he into parapsychology, but he's encouraging Edgar Mitchell to do like the kind of J.B. Ryan Parapsychology pick the card experiment in space, implying that not only is the

overview effect merely a shift in perspective, but that it actually probably, you know, going into space might affect you somehow mentally on some more fundamental level. Also physiologically, like there are, there are proven changes, if I'm not mistaken, to the body once you go up into space. Like, yeah, these weird things that they can't account for. And I might be, you know, sort of speaking out of my ass here, but there were things that they measured that didn't really line up with leaving space. And it's as if your body knew you were in space. Yes. And you literally need to take a human resonance machine up with you in space or else your body starts to kind of malfunction. Yeah. And that goes to like anchoring yourself. It does. Yeah. But it also goes

toward, it's probably deeper than that. Like if you think about biological morphology, just, you know, humans and animals, like if you put someone in a fair day chamber, and they grow up, they're not going to grow normally. Like, you put it, you can literally do an experiment where you put a frog embryo in a fair-day chamber and it's not going to grow normally, put it next to a Wi-Fi router or like near Chernobyl and it's going to be, you know, it's too much radiation. So there is a sweet spot of ultraviolet radiation that peaks through the magnetosphere and then the Schumann resonance of the Earth, which allows for this anthropic principle-driven

It's perfect recipe dish that we're in right now. And so you have to ask, is that going on on a level beyond biology? It's obviously going on on the biological level with the Schumann resonance thing. But then is there something actually extremely ontologically shocking, literally about going into space. Also, you know, going back to this sort of these people look like they've experienced trauma, Buzz Aldrin, Neil Armstrong. They're coming back. To me, it looks like they saw some shit. They probably saw some shit.

To me, that's the face of like you get to the moon and there's like already people there and they're like, all right, you made it. Now turn the fuck around. And these people don't look like us and they're like 10 feet tall and they have saucers and they're all wearing suits. And you're like, okay. And you go back and then that's the face I would have if I saw that. I just interviewed a guy who said he was like, I think there was a story that someone overheard Neil Armstrong talking to someone in D.C. And Neil Armstrong said to them, we went to the moon. We met beings up there.

And they said, you know, after the, what was it like six missions? or whatever, it was like, you can't come back. You can't come back. I heard that, too. I want that story to be true so bad. I want there to be a recording. Was there a recording? And I don't know if this is like real or some hoax,

but wasn't there a recording about like, oh my God, they're here? Yeah, but I don't know how, I don't know. I want that to be real so bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I heard that too, I was like, everybody should know this or it's bogus. Or it's bogus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, man, that'd be cool.

Yeah, it would be cool. Be interesting. Yeah. I like that big test they did where they, like, bombed the moon and it rang like a bell for a few hours. Yeah. And I was skeptical about that too. And then I looked in it. I was like, oh, no, they did. No, no, that's literally a fact. Yeah, it's literally a fact. I was like, whoa. And the craters are all the same depth, apparently. I think they didn't bomb it. I think they crashed the booster. Right. Yeah. Of the, I think it was like Apollo 11 was like, you know, just viewing that it might be sort of, you know, somewhat hollow.

Right. And then Apollo 12 crashing the booster. And then I put, they put seismometers there. And they were like, it ring like a bell. And then you have, I think his name is Gordon McDonald, who is Eisenhower's chief space advisor saying the only way in which the moon makes sense is if it's somewhat hollow and cavernous, which is trippy. And then you, there's so much.

Yeah, you wonder, you know, you wonder, is the moon brought here? Yeah, was it geoengineered? Why is it tidal locked? And we never see the dark side. You have Neil Armstrong's second expedition is. in 1975 to this quote unquote Teos cave where this the lore is there's this library of alien metallic artifacts and there's this cave system at the edge of the of Ecuador and in the Amazon and or sorry at the edge of the Amazon in Ecuador and Neil Armstrong and Neil Armstrong brings a BBC

film crew to go look into you know this thing and it's so you have enough conviction that there could be a there there that you want to look into this. Why would you ever do that if you didn't have some conviction maybe from prior experience? Sure. Yeah. And, you know, having somebody from the Navy do that, you're like, oh, it's interesting. Having somebody from, you know, the army, you're like, oh, that's interesting. Having an astronaut do it, you go, wait a second.

Yeah. What do you know? What do you know? You know? Yeah. Astronauts do anything. You're like, why are you doing that? And then you gave that speech of like, you know, what is it?

If you can remove one of truths protected layers or whatever. Very ominous. Very ominous and feels coded, you know. A lot of those speeches feel coded. The, I mean, what is it, the Eisenhower, the famous Eisenhower speech. Also, Nixon or Reagan? I think you, oh, it would tell me. Was it Reagan, the U.N. speech?

Is that Reagan or Nixon? Which one? You know, if we're... Oh, it's Reagan. Yeah, if we're facing an extraterrestrial threat. Yes. Yeah, all of those speeches, you put them together and you're like, some plain sight. What's going on?

No, and then you have Stephen Spielberg going back to him screening ET in the White House. Right. And Steven Spielberg says in an interview, Reagan faced all these national security advisors in the room and said, all of you know that what is on that screen is absolutely real. Or some of you in this room know that. Yeah. And he just stood up and he looked around the room, almost like it was doing a headcount. And he said, I want to thank you for bringing E.T. to the White House. We really enjoyed your movie.

And then he looked around the room. He said, and there are a number of people in this room who know that everything on that screen is absolutely true. And he said it without smiling. But he said that. And everybody laughed, by the way. The whole room left because he presented it like a joke, but he wasn't smiling as he said it. It's like, come on. You give me a break.

There's Gorbachev, you know, who obviously, you know, oversaw that, you know, his first, first, you know, president after, you know, the Soviet Union fell. He, I think, is on record. I think it's an interview with Charlie Rose, where he talks about some UN event where he's sitting next to Reagan. And Reagan literally leans over and he goes, you know, Mr. President, would you join forces with us

in the event that there were an alien threat? And he goes, he's like freaked out. And he goes, of course, Mr. President. And then the event just like, you know, starts. So you have like so many of these like apocryphal stories. And I don't know. I mean, that's not even apocryphal. That is literally Gorbachev saying that.

And then I literally just interviewed a guy who's president of a Russian Republic that borders Dagestan. Calmedia, 300,000 people. Shout out Kalmikia, Kyrsonyl Yom Zenov, who was also president of the president of the World Chess Federation. That's right. And he debriefed with Gorbachev, and Gorbachev brought Kissinger. And he said it seemed like Kissinger knew all about this whole topic.

And me, you, UAP, GERB, we've all uncovered all sorts of interesting stuff around Kissinger, you know, being involved in this sort of topic. So then you have this, like, he doesn't know the research we're doing. He doesn't, you know, Kyrsodil Yom Zenov isn't like tracking American podcast media. Yeah, he just happened to drop a name that was really relevant. That was extremely relevant. Yeah. It's kind of interesting. there. Oh, man. Yep. How long do you think we're going to have to fight this fight for before we get some answers?

I, I, I, do you think, do you think you'll get it before? Like, do you, obviously there's this hubbub of 2027, 2034, all these different dates? do you have a timeline? Do you think like if I don't get it by X, I'm just, I'm done with this? Or do you think it'll have, do you think it's imminent? Do you think it's? I don't like to make my interest in this stuff contingent on any revelation from any authority figure. It's sort of like literally antithetical to the search itself. But I mean, at what point do you just go like, oh, just, you know, something's got to give?

Yeah. I mean, look, my hope is I, well, not have left like a more like, you know, prestigious job and venture capital to like start a YouTube channel on something that will remain fringe forever. I would love to see this accepted in the mainstream. I think that would be absolutely amazing. And I would have expressed more pessimism six months ago. Today, today Trump literally just said something about this topic and literally like it, you know, implicitly said that aliens are classic. and Obama let out classified info by talking about them.

And so do I see that like ramping up? Like possibly. I think that's extremely interesting. And then as things get kind of scarier on like a geopolitical level, I do see this being like, not only like is the alien intervention like possibly more imminent, but, you know, the military industrial complex, which has kind of held this so tightly, A, they probably need to let it out for cynical reasons. because they're like this stuff we've obviously been trying to like weaponize it for so long and nobody knows what this you know we don't we don't know how we have this hasn't been as functioning of a program it's not it's not it's

not the manhattan project 2.0 anymore like the best and brightest physicists aren't on this stuff anymore so like they'll start to talk about it then yeah okay breaking tweet right now don't j trump will we talk about true social recently yeah don't and we're just getting this now this is live Based on the tremendous interest shown, I will be directing the Secretary of War and other relevant departments and agencies to begin the process of identifying and releasing government files to alien and extraterrestrial life. No way. Unidentified aerial phenomena and unidentified flying objects, UFOs. And any and all other information connected to these highly complex but extremely interesting and important matters, God bless America. I just got the chill.

Me too. That is insane. We were, dude. We were just talking about this, this whole. We have, we have, uh, UAP Gerb and, uh, come say hi. UAP Gerb and Luigi. This is breaking news, dude. I thought you guys had to go or something.

It was like we're reading it and I, you know. Oh, my God. Dude, when, when did he tweet this? About 20 minutes ago. Yeah. Let's fucking go. Dude, that's wild. We're literally talking.

talking about this. This is insane. We were literally just being like, we hope we're not, you know, like, marginalized. I literally just asked you. I was like, you know, why we'd like, oh, what last, is Trump the guy? Like, that's all we talked about pretty much other than the moon stuff. I want to cry. I'm so pumped.

Dude, I'm going to read this one more time. Based on the tremendous interest shown, I will be directing the Secretary of War. Pete Hagseth. It basically runs the DOD. Yes, he says. And other relevant departments and agencies. Ha ha. To begin the process of identifying and releasing government files related to alien and extraterrestrial life.

He's being crystal clear. Let's fucking go. Unidentified aerial phenomena, UAP, and unidentified flying objects, UFOs. He didn't leave anything out. No. He was extremely. And you're not going to take that back. You cannot put that cap back.

There's no running that back. Holy shit, guys. Dude, do we just get some type of like beginning of disclosure? This is epic. Yeah. Is this happening? This, there is no going back from this as far as the questions that are going to be asked by everyone going forward. And I think it's impossible to stop that train.

It's going to snowball. They could come out with something that denies it. I doubt that. But even if they tried to do that, that is such a, that is, I mean, that is like a disclosure statement. Well, it, it's, it's what's going to lead to disclosure. Thank you. He literally says, I'm directing the Secretary of War and all other relevant departments and agencies to basically look into and reveal and everything we know about aliens. Oh, my God. Fuck.

Dude, the shit show that is happening underground somewhere in the desert is probably insane right now. You got people throwing tarps over tick-tacks. We got people, yeah, this is probably, oh my God, this is chaotic. This is chaotic and it's epic. Holy cow. I'm so happy. And honestly, does a little part of you feel a little vindicated? Just all the conversations.

That we've just, no, but just this conversation particularly. Well, this is wild. We were just talking about this. It's a crazy synchronicity. We could talk about anything. I know. And normally I wouldn't even get into politics that much because I'm like, I don't care. I know.

Whatever. And for some reason, I felt really compelled today. I did too. To talk about Obama, Trump. And usually I don't care like what they say. Yeah. Wild. It's wild.

And I think you got a rush to deliver this podcast, man. Damn. I got Ross coming out tomorrow. We'll do that. I don't know. I don't know, whenever you want. Yeah. But this is crazy.

Might have to just put this out after tomorrow. I don't know, man. It's real. Live reaction to Donald Trump getting ready for disclosure. It's taking me everything not to grab my phone and scroll through Twitter right now. I know. It must be, dude, all the, all the skeptics. I mean, both of our phones must be just blown up.

Oh, for sure. And Luigi and UAP, you're like. I was hearing, I was hearing. Because we're all the token like, you know, UFO friends of like all of our people. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Brigham just text me. The White House. Dude, the White House tweeted this.

Fucking A. This is unbelievable. That's crazy. That's crazy. I'm, dude, I want to scroll for 10 minutes and come back and do this pod and see like, I'm down. I want to see what people are saying. Yeah, we can do that. All right, let's do that.

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Again, that's hellofresh.com slash area 5210 FM. It's one less mystery to solve at the end of the night. Now, if you'll excuse me. Thank you, Halifax. Now back for video. Okay. Um, pretty insane. Insane.

You know, so we had to take a break and just kind of soak in this moment. We held a Twitter spaces, which never do this. I've done it once. Jess, I don't think you've ever done it. And we just wanted to kind of get the reaction and the gestalt of all the people sort of feeling the feelings that we're feeling right now. And, you know, I'll let you speak to it. There was, there was obviously a lot of, you know, initial knee jerk. this is an Epstein cover, which is to be expected. But, you know, there were some great conversations

that came at that. You want to, you want to touch on that a little bit? Yeah, I think we landed on, yes, the motives of the thing might be cynical, but the thing being true or false is completely orthogonal and separate to the motives possibly, you know, involving, distracting from other things. Absolutely. And the nature of reality. is on the line. Yeah. Right. So both are extremely important.

We shouldn't let up on the Epstein stuff, obviously. But I think it's actually interesting, like, in that it's somewhat analogous where as much as there are still more files to come out, they've probably been sanitized. You know, this administration promised transparency around the issue. And in some ways, they've been wrestled to the ground on it. Like it's, you know, it was this initial, like, we're going to get transparency on it. And then it was like, you know, Cash Patel making some denials. And then it was like, and then Pam Bondi getting dragged through the mud.

And then, you know, a lot of redactions. But the files are coming, slowly coming out due to Mace and Massey and a lot of these people. And I think there is almost no chance after a tweet that is this declarative about inquiring into this stuff, which inquiring into it saying even, you know, it like that, you're implying that. you're implying that there is a there there. And it's funny to see my most, like, kind of rationalist skeptic friends text me being like, I wonder if they find anything. And it's like, dude, I've like literally like, like,

based your hole. I've been to D.C. like, like, you, I don't know, probably once a year for the past three or four years. I fucking hated. I find everybody duplicitous there. But every time you like meet with people around that area, they, it's an open secret.

Like, which is funny to see like, you know, So I still think there's this consensus, like, lag where, like, they just haven't quite caught up. And I think this statement from Trump where there's no chance he's going to like. It's a can of worms. It's a can of worm. You open up a can of where you can't put the cap back in the bag. And it just increases the surface area. You know, say he retracts it immediately.

Don't matter. Four or fivefold. And then if he doesn't and they find anything, it's a hundredfold. And it's like it becomes taught in, in mainly. mainstream academia, and it's, it's just, it's the beginning of infinity on the topic. Yeah. Yeah, well said. I also think that there's an interesting take here because a lot of people's skepticism isn't necessarily about the UFO topic. You know, Luigi had mentioned something interesting, too, is that this is quite unique in that Barack Obama actually said aliens are real, which gets the Democrats on that side, too. So it became this sort of bipartisan argument about, about aliens, which is quite interesting.

how it started. But then at the other end, you have people who generally hate everything that Trump says, right? And they have the reasons and that's totally fine. But even the people who hate Trump and who think that, oh, this is just him trying to get away because they got some dirt on him about Epstein, which is probably, you know, likely. It's very likely. That being said, it almost acts as a sort of almost like a small dose of ontological truth where they don't have to swallow the full pill. A lot of people who've been following Trump really closely are probably, I'm guessing, because this is more of like, it's become, unfortunately, more of like a Republican thing, especially within Congress and you sort of, you know, the arguments online and whatever.

But it's kind of both sides. A lot of the disclosure push over the last 10 years has come from. I agree. I only mean recently. But the people who are completely against anything that Trump says, now they have to sort of subliminally swallow this pill, right, that, okay, let's say it is all Epstein stuff. You're still being told the president's looking into aliens. There's no hiding from that statement. And so it acts as like a soft push ontologically, I think. And so almost a net positive for everyone because just getting that truth from a president you love and admire might be a lot, right? If Obama had this. Flip the script a little bit. It's a few years ago, Obama comes out and says, due to popular demand, I'm looking into it. aliens and we're going to find aliens. And he says it unironically and not as a joke or as a

snarky comment on a on a podcast or a, you know, a late night show, but he says it as a real, like he tweets it out or whatever. That might be shocking to a lot of people who follow him. Not so shocking if Trump tweets it because he tweets a lot of wild shit. But for the people who don't want to believe or don't really care for Trump, now they're forced to kind of have to swallow that in a way that might be a little healthier instead of just getting it all at once, too. So I don't know. Maybe an interesting take there, but yeah. Trump, say what you will about the guy, but like he acts on instinct. He shoots by the hip and he is not the embodiment of the bureaucracy, which a lot of other presidents seem to be like this outgrowth of these, you know, and then you get

this like kind of, you get these statements like, you know, you're actually the mayor. You're not this, you know, world dictator. You're like, you're really constrained as far as, you know, any sort of action that you can take. And so, yeah, no, I, look, just the, the fact that a president is making this statement is saying that we are looking into extraterrestrial life and that. And all the derivatives of that word and those implications, like not just UAP. Not just UAP. You know, not biologics. You had, you had statements all the way up to that level. you had it from ex-presidents, but you didn't have a sitting president. You didn't have a sitting president saying, I have like ordered the Department of War to do that.

And then the, you know, Secretary of War, former Secretary of Defense, Pete Heggsett, Pete Heggseth, literally putting in, retweeting it with an alien emoji. Alien emoji and a saluting emoji. Yeah. That was probably the most mind-blowing tweet I read out of, like, obviously everybody's tweeting it. every, you know, you're... And the fact that they are totally fumbling on the Epstein thing makes probably makes him more motivated to get to the actual truth on this.

Yeah, absolutely. And might even motivate people who are against Trump to go through the Epstein stuff and get more of that out. So a net positive on both of those fronts. Totally. Wow. And just if you take the idea. that like the UFO stuff speaks to the nature of reality,

like the world we're in, we're swimming in, then politics is downstream of that. And the Epstein stuff is fucking weird. Yeah, it poisons the well, for sure. But yeah, but do the things connect at some point? And if you're saying that a truth here is going to actually cause a deficit

in your ability to get to the truth here, when this truth is really weird, they are positive some, they're not zero some. So let's get to the truth on both. This is awesome. Absolutely. And I think it is a push in the right direction for everything. It's, it's, you know, we've never really hosted one of these spaces ago on Twitter and it's hundreds of people.

And we heard from some of, you know, the people in the community, which was really nice to sort of let them chime in because I was really curious on what the pulse, am I reading this wrong? Is there, am I reading into this too much? Am I getting excited for nothing? There is, there are those possibilities. obviously that, okay, some people are like, it's going to be a nothing burger, or he's just, he's doing it for the clicks or whatever. Yes, all true.

Fine, whatever. But I wanted to hear from people and see how they felt about it. And there is an obvious sense of deserved skepticism, but underneath that, it's nice to hear that there is a hopeful tone from the community, from people listening. Yes, people are skeptical, and you have a right to be an eye,

am too but in this moment in this particular moment in time you know i feel a little hopeful i feel i feel so hopeful i think it's it's a it's a it's a moment in history that will never forget and i think uh you can't put the cap back in the bag because once you once you say that you're tacitly admitting there's probably a there there it's clearly in reaction to this bomb obama stuff and this thing has just been building and if you know anything about like i think the way government's kind of these distractions or sci up or any of this stuff, it's usually you're not hiding something that's, you're usually not like constructing something that's like wholly fabricated. Yeah.

You are, you might be like say, look over here. But the thing over there is often true. Sure. And so it might be expedient or whatever for them to look at aliens right now, which is crazy that we're on the timeline where that is the distraction for anything. Because for the longest time it was like. Everything was the distraction for that. For that.

Yeah. But that doesn't mean that it's not true. And again, if you just like take one more step, it's like, what are the implications if true on this stuff? And like both you and I have like levered our lives into this stuff and kind of know it's true. Yeah. So like, then at that point, it's like, this is great. This is really cool.

And it's going to legit, like, think about the fucking random kid in his bedroom seeing this. He's just like, you know, disillusioned with like the received wisdom, shitty education they're getting or whatever. And they see this thing come through. and, you know, maybe they're a fan of some, like, alien sci-fi movies, but they don't know any of this stuff could be legit, you know, and maybe they've heard smattering. Yeah, it sparks. It sparks a whole new interest. And you're like, oh, my God, maybe, you know, if the president's saying this, you know, wow. And then you start to look into the lore and you find a podcast or you find a movie. The butterfly effect of that tweet is something that will undoubtedly have an effect on the world. Now, I'm sure people are not going to want to admit that, and they're going to want to debate me on that. But it's impossible that you debate something like that because the amount of influence that this person has is great.

Yes, is enormous. And now that that tweets being shared by everyone, there is, without a doubt, a renewed interest in the topic, like you said, like, you know, reaching this little kid in his room or reaching somebody that was out of the UFO space for years. or as we mentioned on this space, possibly potentially, even influencing and inspiring a whistleblower to now come forward and seeing this as a call of action. This might be like the flare, the signal flare that a lot of these people needed, saying my commander-in-chief is essentially behind me if I come out. Yes.

I don't feel like I'm alone. I feel like I'm not going to be laughed out of the room. I feel like this is the right time to come out. And if anything, there's an executive mandate from the White House to gain clarity on this. Correct. So you're being asked by the president as somebody working on these programs. Yes. Especially if you think they run in ineffective, corrupt, dysfunctional ways that are actually not always at the best interest of the country or national security to go directly to the White House and tell them what's up.

Yeah. And then I think, and then Trump is somebody who cares about optics and he's not somebody who I think, you know, is just going to like, you don't, you don't say something like that. And then you probably probably. Not with this reaction. Yeah, not with. And that's the thing. He's also good. It's catering to his ego right now. It is. And he's good at testing the waters, seeing how people react and then deciding whether to double down. And I'm, I can already tell you without, you know, the data, you know, hasn't, you know, you know, come in fully. But he's going to view this. is a successful test. And he's going to double down. He's going to double down. And there's going to, you know, even if we do get slow dripped into disclosure, at least at least we know what's happening. And at least we know there's like activity.

Yeah. And I mean, I think there's a like a decent polemic on society today, which is like the smartest people work on the dumbest problems. So we live in this over financialized society where we're like trading derivatives on derivatives on Wall Street. And it's, you know, to make any money out of college, it's like banking, consulting, like some of these jobs that like aren't, you know, or like you're like in the unique case where you start a really successful startup. And even that's being changed tremendously by AI. And so you have this like runaway wealth accrual. And a lot of those jobs don't

even involve like value creation. They're kind of value extracting and like, you know, it's like you're trading cards, but like with the underlying productive horsepower of the economy and we're moving away from like doing things that are real. And it involves technology and it involves physics

that like we don't, it breaks our modern physics and like, you know, and metal you've never seen before and, you know, you know, lift and anti-gravitic propulsion and all this shit that like,

we don't have access to on the civil side. And so you have this brain drain of these, you know, best and brightest going into these like boring jobs that are like zero sum and extractive. And then you have like this possible like kernel of an economy being sat on by these you know, FFRDC's defense contractors, like all the stuff that Gerb has like mapped out in his amazing channel. And it's stuck in these like stultified little dark corners. And like let's bring that to the light. It could really change. the world. And you could say some of it has dual use implications or whatever, but like it looks like World War III might start in the Middle East. So let's let's maybe start to look into that now.

And that's really cool and exciting. Oh, it absolutely is. And not something to be cynical, though. Yeah, no, definitely not. It's something to be hopeful for. And there's a net positive here somewhere. You know, Luigi said something really cool too when we were, you know, all talking on the spaces. He was talking about sort of how this, you know, how the next steps here might end up being the conversation of offering immunity again. You know, this might, we might start to hear this a lot more now. Yeah. Because that is a very real way to get some of the people in the program to come forward. In fact, the only way I think isn't to kick down doors and to threaten them with.

jail time, it's to offer them immunity and look, as long as you say everything you know under oath, everything without omitting anything, you're off the hook. I think we're going to start hearing talk about that. I think a lot more now that this is out there. I think you will hear talk about that and then simultaneously, I think maybe some of Trump's enemies were involved in some of these UFO activities. And so you might also see selective, you know, targeting of some of those people around some malfeasance or, you know, whatever. Oh, I see you think some assassinations are going to start happening? Oh, I don't want to say assassinations.

No, no, no, no. I just think, like, you know, X, Y, Z person, you know, isn't a fan of Trump, but was implicated in sort of, you know, these, like, covert UFO programs where misappropriation of funds occur. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. But we're dealing with, you know, a hefty sum of money and a lot of secrets and a lot of people who would do anything to protect those.

secrets and we know this already this isn't news you know the whistleblowers have told us this much of you know the reprisals and all sorts of you know threats that have happened well i think if if anything like that would occur they would occur within the program to deter people from coming out yeah yeah i'm talking about like uh or from speaking yeah the trump side being like hey this this person like because the left and the right are i've never been more at war and like yeah i guess yeah we're on we're on different yeah we're on different i'm just like my head's going straight to like all the people scrambling right now somewhere in a in a deep underground military installation yeah who are reading this tweet on their you know on their break after they grab their

secureized phone from like their fair day box and they're looking at you know truth social or twitter whatever and they read this tweet and you just start hearing in the halls of these cavernous installations the murmurs of people and their excitement and their worry and you're hearing the chatter and you can't help but it's very audible because everybody's looking at each other like holy shit like these people yeah not people you know above ground

I mean the people who are very close to this stuff guaranteed this tea is spilled and those people are cleaning it up right now they're like dude did you just did you like you got to imagine I can't even fathom what that must be like right now, but the atmosphere in these high stress intense environments where stress levels are already really high due to high security

and like compartmentalized access and information, this must be just the most like wild thing. I'm sure at the individual contributor level, there's a ton of disparate pockets of a lot of excitement. and oh my god i'm being heard for the first time and then i'm sure at the managerial and executive level like you all shut up everybody here shuts up you don't say word i know you're on twitter you shut no they're probably thinking we're in vichy france and d days about to occur yeah and we you know better cover our ass you're you're with us you're against us yeah and whatever whatever the

fuck happened to the epstein files when that was telegraphed around transparency from the Trump, the incoming Trump admin is, might be happy. Yeah, I bet you a lot of documents are being burned right now. Oh, definitely. Shredded, burned, you know, places being completely leveled. I'm sure things being moved. Because Trump is, you know, he definitely, he, you know, I was going to say, yeah, you want to see what's going on right now? Look at who's ordering pizza at this hour, like for real. You know, like they had, when they had the spikes of, you know, when I, when I think I Iran was being bombed. Was it Iran or Palestine or when Palestine was being bombed by Israel or whatever, when the strike first happened, the Pentagon had like a giant order of pizzas that night before the strike happened, right?

And so this strange metric. It's like war gaming. Exactly. Like people are like, all right, we're in for a long night. And like, you know, go around the country and look at where pizza is just being flooded into these strange. range areas and you're probably you're probably going to stumble on some uh yeah some worried people yeah and trump you know it's like talks softly and carry a big stick trump talks big and carries a big stick he he follows up on the thing he literally just like kidnapped the president of

Venezuela like the guy you can criticize him for whatever you want but the guy takes action yeah he does just move on things. And when he says he says he's going to do things, like he'll say stuff about tariffs vis-a-vis China, and he'll do it. And the stock market will tank. And he's like, well, I'm just renegotiating the world. And it's all this art of the deal stuff.

Yeah. And so I don't know what the deal, you know. Well, the deal here is clear. I mean, he starts his tweet off with due to popular demand. Right. So obviously showing your hand right away, which, again, net positive. Huge. But he's also signaling that like, oh, this is people like me now.

This is, I'm a hero. All right. And if people just keep doubling down on that, dude, we can appeal to his ego and gaslight this guy to give us UFOs. Like, this is what we're doing right now. We need to like praise this guy. Be like, you're doing a great job, Donald. Just keep him going. He was a reality TV star and he, you know, he's-

Feed his ego a little bit. Totally. And he's, I think, I don't. I don't know. I think he's probably feeling pumped. I'm sure he's getting positive feedback for people around him. The interesting thing about the UFO thing, and this is why I think we are going to, yeah, go for it. I'm sorry, I was just going to say, I wonder if there's a way to, like, do that with the Epstein files with him and just be like, you weren't there. You weren't on that island. They wouldn't have invited you. There's no way you were important enough to be on that island and touch those kids. There's no way they would have invited. You weren't even like a big shot back then and just watch him like just go, what do you? I was on that island a hundred times. Yeah, I mean, I, it's my take into gaslighting Trump and everything. You could probably gaslight him into everything and just have. Obama say he can't do something? Uh-huh. And then he's just like, yeah.

Great friend, Epstein. Yeah. And I think whatever applies to him applies to the whole world. Like, it's, there are these like game theory dynamics where, you know, we're like first to draw blood on this stuff. Like, I do think you, you end up with other countries trying to like, curry, like, random countries being like, well, we had a few sightings back in the day. actually have some files on it or whatever. And then they realized that it's this like crazy popularity play vis-a-vis their bases,

and then they come out. And then you get this sort of like these pockets popping up and it becomes this contagion. Yeah, or other countries potentially trying to vie for his affection as well. Like if you have some other, you know, country looking for America's protection, you know, the president of said country might also be like, we're with you. We're also looking at our files. You know, we might see this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The fall out of this could be a multitude of things that lead to a variant amount of disclosure. And Russia and China are thinking, oh, we're falling behind now. That's right. Our populations are going to feel like we're, you know, not on top of this topic. I'll be blunt, and this is my prediction. The amount of sightings is going to jump tenfold. Yeah. And not from actually, maybe not from actual sightings.

it'll jump tenfold from people being interested in this topic, not unlike what happened with the drone situation where a lot of people were looking up, filming, and all of a sudden sightings were going up. So it creates this like false reality that there are like more NHA or more UFOs when in fact it's just more people being interested in the topic. So look for a lot of sort of wild and crazy, you know, claims, all sorts of videos hitting, you know, Twitter and all the social media.

Even military stuff, you're going to get Fleer footage. This is my prediction that in the next week or so, we're going to be inundated with UFO videos. I think so, too, but I think so for that reason because of this sort of like, you know, mass consensus shift. And then I also think we're entering a very troubled and bizarre time, and you have on your amazing, swaggy merch to have Invisible College, you know, established 1648.

1648 is the end of the 30 years war, you know, 16 is a treaty of Westphalia that they signed. And in that period, they were reporting, like, aerial stuff, like weird stuff happening in this guy. In fact, Descartes, I think, had a weird experience in the Prussian army. He was fought in the 30 years war, sort of this, like, paranormal experience. And so I think at times of, like, kind of sort of really crazy disruption, I think, and that also was when the Renaissance kicked off.

Like, yeah, they call it, like, the Rosicrucian. And the Rosicrucian Enlightenment or whatever was this Francis Yates book about these Rosicrucian documents sort of spawning the Enlightenment. And so I think we're living in this axial age where past meaning structures and systems, a la organized religion, are being slothed off, collapsing. And we're going to need new models

to incorporate these observables, which are just breaking down the dam of the kind of establishment paradigm. Exciting time to be in. This is an exciting timeline to be a part of. I'm going to, I got some questions. We're going to call it after this because it's getting late. Yeah, it is.

And, you know, we got to get back to do scrolling. Give me a second. Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for doing this. Yeah, of course, man. This is fun. I mean, it's pretty historic. Yeah, no, it's so cool to do this with you on a day like this.

Definitely. It's nuts. It's so wild that we were talking about literally exactly. what ended up happening as it happened. It was this big, like, what the fuck? Yeah, and contemplating what that would be like. Yeah.

Yeah, it was like, we were like, you know, we hope this isn't stigmatized forever. It's so crazy. Yeah, that was literally the question, wasn't it? It's crazy. Man, I don't know if any of these questions are really relevant anymore. That's the thing. Why?

Um, well, just because they're like so off topic now. Like we're so, it'd be weird to like shift into something else. But I will say this is a great question. This is from, uh, hex. So I'm going to prompt this one here. He is always asking good questions. He is asking good questions. And his name won't be on the split flat because it couldn't fit. But 130 characters. It's a great question. Knowing it would be his last interview. What would you change? So many things. So many things. I thought I had multiple days with the guy and his health literally went downhill after that first interview. So it was a four-hour interview. But like on he was, so he ended up getting sick after that.

And then he ended up in the hospital. I stayed for a little bit to try to help Pippa to the extent I can. His daughter ended up having to leave because it was like, I think, 10 days into that. and then I think a couple weeks after that or something, his health was really in bad shape and he gave me a call. And this made it into the video. We spoke. And I asked him about this time when he was, he was, he, this crazy story where he's this

poor painter's son right outside of Boston. And he ends up painting the house of Carl Compton, who is the president of MIT and runs the war production board at the time. and, you know, probably implicated in, actually, literally, like, there are apocryphal stories of him being shown stuff at Wright Patterson. And I think this comes from Sarbocker, so it was Wright Airfield at the time. And so, like, probably implicated in the UFO stuff, definitely deep in, like, kind of nuclear world, national security world. And Malmgram starts talking to him about how photons act as an entangled system. Yeah.

And this is what. literally talk about like breaking Einstein's like literally cutting edge physics cutting edge physics at the time wrote in his ePR paper about entanglement but entanglement had never been like properly measured yet it was really like wild yeah he's talking about how photons are attached and like is insane yeah they were yeah entangled photons work as a system and i think that was like 60s when that was like you know verified and colton was like this guy yeah this was like we you know we got to get this guy a full ride. And then he also, I think, wrote a letter to the Atomic Energy Commission, Malmgren. And we literally were going through the pages what they wrote back. And he says, you know, it was around that time

that my name got put in, you know, it was basically some like tracking list that the CIA had or whatever. Yeah, some fast track. Yeah, yeah, right? Because it was clearly this prodigious, like, genius. And they knew that. And yeah, and they knew that. And then he goes, not only the CIA, he goes, but the majestic, the ones who thought upon it, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, he said the majestic. He says the majestic. He said the majestic. And he had throat cancer, uh, I think 11 or 12 years earlier. So it was really hard to make out exactly what he was saying in this long phone call. And so we had to actually, um, subtitle the entire video. And so we subtitle that part. I watch it, And I go, oh, fuck. He said majestic. He said he was being tracked. And you didn't catch it?

I didn't even catch it on the spot. You didn't catch it on the spot. And then you go, you look at his life. And I have to say, if there's any sort of like hermetic, okay, I'll tell you a story. I'll tell you a story. I don't think I've ever told this story. Okay. We were driving him to the hospital.

And it was me, Pippa, him, and my girlfriend. and I asked him, have you ever, you know, is there ever any connection? Do you ever feel like there's anything real about, like a time traveling intelligence agency? Which sounds really like a weird question, but I'm down this crazy thread with the Townsend Brown stuff

and him viewing himself as a time traveler. And then I've come up, you know, there's so much evidence that he actually made, you know, progress in gravity, gravity and time are related in general relativity. And then he, you know, there's the Tim Taylor stuff about them being part of the secret time travel group. And, and Malmgren's like investigating all this stuff at the end of his life. And he had been talk every single thing, other thing I had asked him.

I even remember specifically, I said, I was trying to remember the name of the mayor, the former mayor of Leningrad. And he goes, Subcheck. He like, he was sharp as attack, even with his oxygen levels at 89 as we're driving him to the hospital. So he remembers that. And he's talking, he's telling all these stories about Nixon and Schultz and Pompadou and just these like world leaders like, you know, all over the world. So also like to the debunkers, like, fuck you. Like you don't understand just how sharp this guy was at an old age, clearly knowing intimate details about all of these world leaders. Just pattern matched to me.

And I've met a lot of smart people to somebody who was like an elite. statesman. And when I asked that question about the time traveling intelligence agency, he just went silent. And it was like this eerie and like Pippa noted it. And we all were like, this is just, I don't know, it was straight. It was like everything else. He was like this chatterbox, like even as his health was not amazing. And I don't know, I don't know what that means. I have no idea what that means. But it was interesting. And was that in the car ride? Yeah, it was on the car ride. He was sitting in front? I think so. You guys were back?

No, I was driving. Oh, you were driving? He was in front with you. Yeah, yeah. And he, like you said, he was responsive to everything else you were talking to him about. Yeah. He was answering everything else. He heard you.

To me, that interview was like, and this is a reason I brought up Cryptos conundrum at the end of the interview. And I think shout out to Matt Pines, because I think he made the connection. He was like, Chalmers kind of reminds me of Malmgren. and to me that interview wasn't interesting because you have a guy who's reporting to have held UFO pieces in his hand. Obviously, that's fascinating that came out of this nuclear blast. To me, what was so interesting about that interview was the bizarre synchronicities throughout his life that only came together at the end of his life looking backwards and him popping up at pivotal moments where like it felt like the world's, could have ended. And him always being the guy not taking credit in the kind of back of the room. And then at the end of his life, he almost feels this like hermetic, because this is a, clearly this like company man who doesn't talk. I mean, he didn't even admit he was probably an artificial cover CIA guy in the interview that I did with him. But like for sure was. And so he's

like, you know, upholding every oath. And but he somehow feels this need to like talk about all this stuff and then you have the synchronicities with Carl Compton and living in certain places at certain times and holding the material and but also talking to you and that's crazy too and I felt it felt deeply meaningful to me personally as well and I think it it came across that way and no one no one I mean this no one would have had a better interview that well I appreciate you saying that I don't know if that's true. I think everyone would agree that like you were in, and GERB and,

and, uh, Luigi, they're nodding their heads. Like, no one would have done a better job. That was, you were meant to interview Harold Moundgren. I felt,

uh, you're gonna make me cry, man. I felt a, a deep, a deep connection with him. Like, uh,

he would talk about like getting called up by these people who, he felt were like way above his pay grade at a young age. And, you know and they like saw something in him and i i i definitely felt this i felt this like weird hermetic he saw something in you too it i felt there was a reason that he read like there's a reason like there's there has to be jessie you were with him when he died you know that's not nothing and and like you said there's one chance he has to tell even the smallest part of his story that he wants to people to ponder or to think about.

And there's more about that week that I don't even feel comfortable talking about publicly that I'd want to, you know, talk to Pippa about. And I, you know, I don't even know, you know, if I don't want to speak out of turn. But it was a fucking gnarly week. It was really, really intense for me. Yeah. Like, do you tell me some of the details and what you went through, what people don't know. Yeah.

Is really tough, shocking, jarring. Really jarring. and made me extremely angry when people came after him. I understand. Because... You have to take some time and step away. Yeah. Because you were still distraught from your experience, you know, during his passing.

Yeah. That I, you know, I understand. And it's not easy. And it's not easy to hold your composure during that when you're not really given a, like, a guide. Yeah. On how to deal with that. Yeah. It's a wild thing to have to deal with to be forced to deal with.

But you did it really graciously, I think. And then I think even more importantly, I think you took that experience and you made a beautiful thing out of it. And something that I'm sure, you know, many people, I'm sure he would be proud of. I hope so, man. I absolutely think so. I almost wish you could have seen it. And I'm so grateful to Pippa, too. and you know i'm i'm really i'm really sad because i think he wanted to do more stuff after me and i think

he wanted to say more and this question i mean this is a great question by hex it's like he was clearly by the end of the video that this is why this question is so good it was so obvious that he was sitting on much much more and so i yeah i just wish i had more time with the guy and it is one of these stories in this field you're always you're it's like you're chasing ghosts and it's like right before you get the hard drive with the footage or before you you know meet the person that's going to tell you every the whatever it it always seems to kind of slip through your fingers but you also kind of get enough to keep going it's this weird fucking thing and i don't know man i i i think what saddened me most about that whole thing was he was a guy that like i would have loved to have like called a

mentor and like spent we could have talked for because he was I love people who are at the intersection and and pip was a little like this too of trippy and um legit and like but like operating at a high level and there aren't too many people usually it's like you're operating at high level you just want to make more money or you want more power and then occasionally you meet somebody who's operating at that level who's tethered to something that's kind of transcendent and you feel it with them you feel that energy and he had that like sharp as attack like you know again elite statesman map of a world in his head like kind of kissinger type in his knowledge but then the exact opposite vibe of kissinger no like you know he was he was an angel surrounded by devils you know they were all

bloodthirsty and he had like restraint and pure intentions and was discreet and uh and uh we need people like that and whenever i meet you know i just interviewed this guy ralph moat large and this, you know, DOE director of Intel. And he was a CIA guy for like decades. And whenever I meet a guy like that, I'm always like, please, if there's anything else you can tell me on,

Harold, please, you know, let me know, because I really want to, I think that was the tip of the iceberg. I think that guy did so much more. It just silently and in the shadows to help and thanklessly to help the country. And I would love to help bring that to light and, you know, if anybody out there knows anything, reach out to Pippa, please, first and for me and I'll send it to her. But, yeah, I don't know.

That's awesome. It's awesome to hear you talk with such a, with such conviction about a man who you barely knew. and yet, you know, you hear this deep, deep respect for this man. And I can't help, but also feel that through your work and your conviction. So thanks for sharing. It's 11.11. Wow. Last question.

Cool. And we'll get going. We got a show tomorrow. We got a show tomorrow. It's a big question by epiphery. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. What is your... Yeah, it's a great question.

I don't know. I talk about this with you all the time, and, like, I get really tired of this topic. I get tired of creating content. I don't think I'm, like, a natural performer, content creator person or whatever. I just, you know, I tell you this all the time. Like, I have a show because it's leveraged to meet interesting people

so I can get closer to the truth myself. And I just, I film it so that I can document it. So it gains a bigger following. So I can get the next person on the show so I can ask them more questions and ideally get closer to some truth. But I get tired of the, you know, kind of, I don't know, the public stuff is that's kind of hard. And like, I do think that the whole field can be very divisive and in kind of a clearly manufactured way. and I've been thinking a lot about like the science stuff is like I'm really interested in that and I like it because you can't really argue against it and so if you can put something out

that's like adjacent or inspired by UFO or directly related to UFOs that is scientific and replicable and usable in like a civil side context I feel like I'd be really happy and I'd be like you know what you made it yeah yeah and you know like you know like every you know Chris you fucking bear the man you know you do this you know other people do and like you know I don't know I want out too what do you talk but like that or like a I don't know like a think tank where I do I love I love obviously the show is so fun but this like weekly cadence of like putting out the next thing it's tough it's tough and it to me all I care about again is like the theoretical sense making of developing like a coherent worldview but then you get

sort of swept away with all the other things that you might think you need and might think you want due to the pressure of creating content. That's right. All that stuff. And I really, sometimes I'm like, I just want to be in like a room with a bunch of other people I respect. Yeah. With like, you know, little index cards and like, you know, a, you know, a bulletin board or something and like creating a map of what's happening and really just thinking, like engaging in sort of deep thought. So But you found a way to do that and make a living out of doing that. For sure. Yeah.

That's an awesome thing to do as well. I think as far as people who are like aligned with their like daily life goes, like I'm definitely in like the 90th percent. I love what I fucking love what I do and I'm so grateful. But if you see a way out for you and like this is it, I've accomplished it. It would be at the end of all of your journeys, all of your seeking would be to help create or spawn some type of. I guess technology or some type of innovation derived from the search? It would be really awesome to help usher something in that's like objectively just a benefit to humanity.

Cool. And just this, because I mean, a lot of this stuff can be dystopian and dual use, but like whatever it's being used for in the legacy program is the bad use of it. You know, it's the bad part of the dual. And so if any of that can be. I would argue you already do that with your show. Thank you, man. Well, I think a lot of people would agree as well.

I think that what you provide is, you know, in this sort of selfish quest to figure out, you know, the questions that you want answered. You're taking people along and by that answering their questions as well. So you are creating that service. And that there is a demand for that. And that does innovate, change, and inspire the world. And so, although not a physical object you can hold that's derived from a UFO, I think the change that you create with what you're doing now is just as lasting. And if not, I think, more important. Well, I really appreciate that, man.

But I still, I want some of these scientific principles I talk about to not have the current stigma they do. Yeah, sure. want them to be like, oh yeah, that's a thing. And I want you to, I want you to want that. So you keep making shows. Hey, I will. I will. I will.

I will. And I will for the foreseeable future. And I'm, I'm pumped right now. But, uh, yeah, I'd be, I'd be really, really excited about that. That would be, that would be awesome. And I, yeah. Well, Jesse, I know it's getting late, man.

And I want to, I want to thank you for doing this so late. I appreciate you. Appreciate your friendship. And I, I, I want to say shout out to Gerb and Luigi for. for being, you know, peanut gallery here, but also, you know, just hanging out and being here in this pretty historic moment. Not sure when I'm going to put up this podcast. I'm in my head right now wondering if I should release this prior to Ross and just throw it out there as a reaction or the same day. I don't know.

We'll figure it out. But appreciate you very much. Guys, go check out American Alchemy on all platforms. Anywhere you listen to your podcast, follow everything Jesse does. he's an important guy and you'll be a better person by doing so I guarantee it. Thanks, Jesse. Love you, man. Thank you. Love you too.