AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - The First Psychic Spy (Full Interview) - Joe McMoneagle - DEBRIEFED ep. 51

Episode Date: August 22, 2025

Today, I wanted to share the FULL interview I had two years ago with world famous Remote Viewer, Joseph McMoneagle.

So around January and two California, it was next to an air station like two miles. Hello, my dad and my mom. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of debrief. My name is Chris Ramsey. And today, well, honestly, today's going to be a little different. I've had some personal issues that I had to be around for. And so, as most of you know, I'm pretty much a one-man team when it comes to recording, setting up, filming, editing, everything that goes on at Area 52.

And I take great pride in what I do. Being a one-man team also means that sometimes I will fall short on deadlines. And especially when they involve something personal that I just, you know, I can't get away from. I have to, I'm needed elsewhere. That being said, I didn't want to leave you guys hanging dry. And I decided to dust off something from the vault. So August of 2023 is where I uploaded the very first trailer to an episode I would do on Area 52, and that was two years ago this week.

So this is the second anniversary of the Area 52 Investigations YouTube channel. It all started with my curiosity into remote viewing and a program called Stargate, which was a program ran by the military and the CIA and the DIA. and the DOD back in the 70s, in which they collaborated with the Stanford Research Institute in trying to see if remote viewing was at all possible. And after 20 years of renewing the budget year after year, well, I suppose they found some modicum of success. And that really piqued my interest. I went down a rabbit hole and interviewed the top physicists that are studying remote viewing, but also got to interview someone who I can

consider a bit of a living legend, Joseph McMonigal, otherwise known as remote viewer number zero zero one. I traveled down to Virginia with my friend Nelson Delis and we made a three-part miniseries, including also subsequent podcasts where Nelson and I, you know, deep dive into our investigation into remote viewing. It was just a wonderful project. I learned so much and it really set me down this path I'm on today. And so for that, I'm incredibly thankful. And so on this synchronous, serendipitous two-year anniversary, today I leave with you the uncut interview of Joe McMonigle. So if you were part of the membership, you already had access to this, but for those of you that didn't, here is, I think this is probably a three-hour runtime of Joe McMonigle,

you know, talking to us about how he got involved. with the program, some of the most interesting cases he had ever seen. He talks about his Mars remote viewing, where they removed viewed Mars a million years ago. He talks about UFOs. He talks about secret programs. He talks about finding hostages. It is so compelling and so just such a great reference for this stuff. So I urge you to listen in. And again, apologies for not being able to provide you with something fresh off the press this week, but rest assured that I'm working hard to deliver something next week. And so with that, I bid you do enjoy this interview with Joe McMonagall, and I will see you on the next video. Peace and love. Let's go back to the beginning

of when this all started. My name is Joseph McMonigle. I was the first one recruited for the Stargate program, which back then was called Gondola Wish at the time. So they assigned me 001. When they recruited the second guy, they realized if you got zero zero two, they'd be telling everybody how many viewers they had. So you got three something, three 75 or something. So I was the only one with the double zero. So I'm the only one authorized to kill people with my head.

Which I'm kidding, of course. After recruitment, I went to SRI and was subjected to the six remote viewings because they sent me out there to be familiarized with it. And there was no training back then. We didn't have a clue what a remote viewing was. There were a lot of things in my history is the reason why they wanted me in the group. I was actually found by Russell Targan and how put off in interrogations. They interrogated a bunch of people, and I fell out of that. I think originally they'd gone through hundreds of people looking for talent.

So when I got to SRI, I did six remote viewings, and out of the six remote viewings, five of them were first place matches. Ed May, Dr. May told me, that it was like very easy to match my remote feelings. So what's a first place matching? What does that mean? Well, there's four places, first place through fourth place. Fourth place is no similarity to the target at all.

Third place, maybe 20% similarities, which is chance. Second place is produced some valuable information, but it's not good enough. to say it's actually the target. First place, no doubt. Wow. That's the target. And it's practically drawn. And in fact, I do very detailed drawings,

so it was pretty easy to match my stuff. The second place, the one second place I had was, they said they argued about it. It could have been a first place. But anyway, it turned out to be the best series of six ever done at SRI. So when I got back, my desk was empty, and the general sent me out to join the crowd at Fort Meade. Very top secret. Oh, it's very sensitive, extremely sensitive.

Yeah. And, of course, almost my entire career and intelligence, I wore civilian-closed anyway. My hard time at Fort Meade, they put me in field grade officers quarters. So being a warrant officer, you don't even talk. about your rank and intelligence right because you're dealing with all kinds of people in rank so all the identity things on the quarters all had rank and position and stuff except mine mine just had my last name so from that point on everybody was trying to figure out where i worked and what i did which nobody was ever successful at did it make it difficult to navigate uh socially

During that time when you're, because, you know, some people might be a little begrudging or just a little too curious. It's horrible. I mean, the social implications of that. And the other thing I did when I went to Fort Meade, I'm old school when it comes to Army. So I put on my dress uniform and white gloves and everything and reported to the general's house, the general that runs the whole base. because that's what you did in the old days. You reported there with a silver engraved card with your name and rank and all that on it. And I knocked on the door and his wife answered, and I saluted her and I handed her my card.

And she had the little silver dish. She put it in a silver dish. So the first year I was there, I got invited to Thanksgiving dinner at the General's house. And everybody was looking at me and wondering how that happened. And so I and the commanding general got to be really good friends because I could do things like drive equipment that's brand new. They would bring it around for him to see. Like an Abrams tank maybe.

He said, you call me on the phone and say, can you drive a tank? Stuff like that. So we were always getting in trouble together. But I really liked him. It's a first general anyway. we get along great. Was there more focus on science, or was it more about just testing the limitations of this or even the practical applications of it?

Well, the entire time I was at Mead, it was originally it was designed to determine whether or not it was a threat, whether or not if the Russians, the Chinese were using it, is this a threat? And they knew nothing about remote viewing. So in a desirable kind of way, what you want to do is train a few people, have them target your own stuff like the Pentagon, the White House, stuff like that, collect some data and then turn it over to an independent agency to evaluate. And they determine the threat that's there. And if it's a high threat, then you want to get more involved.

If it turns out it's really nothing, you just close it off. you end the test period, and that's, it's done. And so originally it was to determine the threat possibilities of remote viewing. The problem is it worked, and it worked really well eventually, which I'll get into in a minute, but it actually worked and made some people really happy because some of the stuff they were getting was stuff they couldn't get any other way. So it just took off on its own. and we became a tasking agency from that point on, which is we knew nothing about it.

We just had tasks that came in, and we'd go in a room and talk about what we were perceiving. No, outside of the original protocol that we used, there was really no attempt to investigate scientifically anything. And one of the things I got recruited for at SRI International is so they could continue to use me for collection and white rat me in the lab. Hit me with things that they were studying, that sort of thing. I was in collection the whole period, so total 40 years of collection, which is a lot.

But when I retired in 84, I also started my own company. was intuitive intelligence applications incorporated in Virginia. And my wife became my tasker and all that stuff. So I would still work blind. And I worked for a lot of, not a lot, but a few dozen major corporations. Some of them, I worked for one for over 10 years. They kept coming back and asking for more. That was a mining company because they didn't have to course sample.

to make a decision on buying a piece of land. They just asked me. And then there were other companies that wanted advice on stock, investments, that sort of thing. And then I had the places I went and demonstrated it after they closed the program. I demonstrated it. I don't know how many times, probably 60 plus. This is like on television? On television, sometimes primetime.

And you were the only one to do this, really? Yeah. There were a couple other people that attempted and they failed. And I think the reason why is the way I train myself. Most of the training, we were asked to go into a very quiet room. They put up soundproofing. They closed the windows off. They turned the whole room into a gray room.

No bookcases, no extraneous stuff in there to steer you in some direction or another. The thing that did it for me, the colonel, came up with this idea that he could make it better if we would tell him what was wrong. So he made a list of 25 things. And after the remote viewing, he would ask us to fill out the list inside it, our initial idea, I think it was. But the list had things like birds chirping outside the building, voices between the walls, too cold, too hot, that sort of stuff.

I viewed that immediately as a list for validating my failures. So I went over and I crushed it all up in a ball and put it in the Zin basket. And I said, I'm not filling that stuff out. In fact, I'm going to try to do my remote viewings as much as I can. Thinking about them, I may sit at a desk with a phone ring. Who cares? If I can't learn to do it under any condition, what value would it be to me in the Army? You know, I could be asked to do remote viewing.

There's still a 155 battery. That's hardly going to not go through the walls. I learned to do it under any condition because I'd sit at my desk, you know, do it. It was the proper way, in my opinion, to learn it because you then had to shut everything out and focus, so you're in here more than out here. and so I could do that anywhere.

In a restaurant, I could sit, know whether the fish I ordered was a real fish, that kind of stuff. Does that ever happen in your day-to-day life where you would seemingly be able to perceive something that maybe even like unconsciously or maybe not willingly? Or is there instances where this has come up during your regular day-to-day? Yeah, when you do remote viewing for a long, period of time. What happens is it's the reason why they can't study it in a lab as easily as they can anything else. You get to the point where, like Dr. May would say to me, get a lot of rest this weekend. We got a really good remote viewing on Monday. It's absolutely essential. You'd be ready for that because it involves our finances. And I've already collected the information.

He's already done it. So if they're going to wire me up to see where it's happening, in my head, all they're going to get's memory. You know, it's ridiculous. I mean, you just automatically go to the viewing. And you can't not do it. It's like habitual, been habituated. So it's like an engine. It just comes on when you know you're going to get a viewing.

And so what we found in that scientifically is you can do the remote viewing on a Saturday for the target. they're going to randomly pick on a Tuesday. And now, that doesn't bother the scientists anymore, but it bothers the hell out of the people for picking the target. That really gets dawn. That's a problem. Yeah.

In fact, because then there's some bias on their behalf, and they're wondering, what's the point even of, like, that must be so bizarre because, you know, it brings into question on fate. It brings into question destiny. and these things for... Right. I don't have any of the questions

that most people have, okay? Anymore. I've been doing it long enough on the science side to say that I see no limitations at all with remote viewing. There are none. Space and time is not real for me.

When I do it, immaterial. I know that it's possible. See, we don't know why we get the information. It's possible that when we do see the answer is when we know ourselves in the past. So we don't know exactly how it works. We've tried everything under the sun to pin that down.

You can't pin it down. So from my perspective, as a human being, I exist not in this little space of here and now. I exist along a time continuum that begins with my birth and ends with my death, possibly. And why wouldn't I know everything that I'm going to even say in that lifetime before I arrive because I've agreed to it maybe? I don't know the answer to that. I just know that it's possible to get the answer way before the question or to get the information a long time into the past.

There seems to be no disruptions. The same with distance. You know, there was a period where they decided, well, they're going to launch the Explorer series satellites. So let's look at the outer rim planets before they get there and see how accurate is that telling us things about outer rim planets that nobody knows yet we're going to collect it with the explorer satellites so they collect all this information from us then they collect the information when the explorer series

satellite gets there seven years later and it turns out to be 88% correct so they say even ingoswan painted pictures of different planets and put rings around them when you can't see a ring, it turns out that's true. So all this glory is in their eyes. They're going to write these papers about we even know stuff that no human knows. But that's not true because when the explorer information is spread through the public, everybody knows the answer. So maybe we just went ahead and got it from everybody.

We don't even we know then. So maybe we passed it to ourselves. Do you think information as it is, is non-local, is just accessible as long as that information eventually exists or existed? I think it goes to the need of the individual. Absolutely. Yeah. And I'll tell you why.

In Vietnam, I was in the 330th Radio Recon unit. it sounds a little weird doing recon radio stuff. Okay. But at the time, we had ANPRD-1s, which are these boxes with a circular antenna on top, receiving antenna in the center. And these boxes set up on a tripod like a camera. And it had big batteries and radios and all this stuff.

And you could tune up an enemy radio and DF location, direction, find the location by turning the oval antenna. The problem was they worked really well inside 2,000 meters to the transmitter. Outside 2,000 meters, the jungle interfered with a whole lot of stuff, especially it was raining. Then you had a baseline you had to make

so that you would get an intersecting line, and closer to 90 to 90, you could get the more accurate. Further way you got, they tend to come together. It's hard to tell, is it in the beginning of the cross or out here? So radio recon was a big thing in Vietnam. Problem was the first guy killed in Vietnam was a radio direction finding guy. His name was Davis.

He did what I did. So it was dangerous. If they saw the tire tracks in the area, it had to be carried in a Jeep. You couldn't carry it on your back because the batteries weighed 75 pounds a piece. The radios were another 90, and then you have the equipment itself. See, you had to go as far as you could go on a Jeep, and many times you'd come out of the jungle with bullet holes all over the Jeep and stuff like that. So very dangerous.

So some of the times I would go only so far down the road and say, stop, and we stop. They said, why are you stopping? I said, because if we go any further, I got a feeling we're going to get nailed. And I had the ability to go places and do things with it that seemingly no one else had. Because they had a lot of guys who disappeared. A lot of guys were killed. a lot of guys were wounded doing this stuff, and I just never had a problem. Is that why they were interested in you?

That kind of came out, yes. That came out in the interviews, and so they thought that that was a sure sign that I had a feeling for my environment anyway. Right, some type of intuition. Yeah. That's why I have come to the belief that this is something that has been a major, gift the humanity that no other animal has. Well, maybe other animals do have it. We just don't know.

But humans have it. And if a human being is trying to live in an area where they're at risk, they have an intuitive knowledge sometimes of not going any further on this trail or not crossing this clearing or not climbing into these rocks. it's just an intuitive thing. So it's almost like an intuitive survival mechanism that people would develop in dangerous areas a little bit more. Exactly. If they didn't, their tribe didn't last long.

They wouldn't be around. So it was implemented, and if it was implemented, it became better on down the line. And this probably started 400,000 years ago. We don't know. So I think it's modern man who has lost the ability because most are not subjected to that kind of an environment. Now, if you want to find a really talented remote viewer, you go to the Army of the Marine Corps,

you go to the fire department, you go to the police department, you go where people's lives can be at risk. I know a surgeon that would be a fantastic remote viewer because this particular surgeon was working on someone, I happen to know this, somebody told me, a nurse told me, was working in a, he was doing a surgery with an individual who had a block carotid artery.

But there was a piece of, I don't know what they call it, plaque down here that was threatening to break loose. So it was very dangerous surgery. They were trying to go in the top and couldn't do it. And there was a lot of things they were trying to do to prevent this from getting to his brain. Right in the middle of the surgical procedure, it broke loose. And the surgeon, when I'd even thinking, cut the guy's throat, just took the scalp on, cut the carotid artery. And this plaque shot up on. onto the wall. And then he clamped it and soed it back.

Save the guy's life. And everybody else went, and that entire action and thought took place in less than a second. That's what I would call expert remote viewing, okay? He understood everything about what was going on, except how do you save someone like that? But when it happened, he did. Do you think this comes from a place,

like you'll get a stronger session out of a necessity? Absolutely. Usually survival necessity. The problem now is we have so many other ways of doing stuff. If I want to know something, I can go to the computer and look it up. I don't go into town and find it by driving around. Mm-hmm. Excuse me.

It's fine. I have this cold. I've been tested, so I know it's a cold. Oh, you're okay. I got it from somebody's kid. Anyway. Okay. So we're now well into Mead.

There's an established cure. curiosity behind this, Hal put-offs involved, Russell Targ. Now what's the transition like between Mead and the next step? How does that take place? Well, what happened, in my opinion, because I was there and I observed it, when they got new people in, although it's a problem with the training, the training was terminated, only the only McNair got through the entire three phases of the training

no one else did they got possibly up to the second the second part so the army was stuck with having to finish the training package because Ingo refused to turn over all his materials so he was released from the army and told to go home took everything with him. So the people who had just come in and the boss at the time who none of them really understood

much about the remote viewing decided to finish the training themselves. So they drew it up the way they thought Ingo was intending to do it. In fact, according to SRI International, the training was not kosher. It was done in a way that encouraged people to give the answer

that the person training was giving them the question for. The way that happened, the trainer would sit with a target, which is obviously not double-blind then. And the person would say, something and if it was correct they wouldn't answer or they'd say correct if it was wrong they wouldn't say anything in my mind that's the old you're getting warmer you're getting warmer that's right you're getting cold you get cold it's a in an inadvertent directional thing that

steers you closer to the target so yeah i didn't like the training and the people at the at SRI International said, well, we'd like to test the new viewers and have them do some work for us in the lab, too. And they all refused. Nobody would go and work with the scientists. I thought that was outrageous personally. These were natural psychics that were trained, or were these military personnel or mix? The actual initial recruitment took money. They went out and talked to a lot of people, then winnowed it down to like 300 and did interviews with them.

And then winnowed it down some more to like 30. And then picked, they were supposed to pick three out of the 30. And they actually wanted six. They, SRI said, we only have enough money to deal with three, but we want six. So we'll eat it for the additional money. That was the original group. The second group, the general went out and talked to people, and people sometimes would say things to him

that he thought indicated they were psychic. The stubblebine? Yeah, General stubblebine at the time. From the beginning of the program to stubblebine, there were three generals, all of which had to approve the, project. General Stubbobine loved it.

He jumped right in. That was his kind of thing. Free information, free intel, that sort of thing. Yeah. And he wanted to be able to do it too. And again, in my opinion, that was dangerous. And I told him so. I, uh, he was getting in his car.

He came to the Monroe Institute once. And I got in his car with him as he was getting ready to leave. I think it was like midnight. And I talked to him for three hours in his car, and I told him, I said, in my opinion, you're on the edge. And if you continue in the same vein, you're going to be asked to retire early by the Army. And he listened.

I have to hand it to him. He listened the entire three hours. He just asked a few questions. At the end, he said, you've given me a lot to think about, Joe, and I appreciate it. And then he got worse. And so the Army Chief of Staff for Intelligence at the Pentagon retired him. Yeah. That's basically why he retired.

For me, it just wasn't a good thing. The whole thing was bad, in my opinion. My job was to advise him and to advise him. the Army Chief of Staff for Intelligence, and to advise any general officer that wasn't connected. And I tried to do that, and it was like talking to the wall. And you guys, I mean, you ended up working with every three-letter agency pretty much under the sun, and including, my guess, is like sitting presidents at the time, vice presidents and, and,

all the presidents that were presidents during the project. all of them liked the project. They all liked it very much. Did they like it from a personal take? Like would they come in for, you know, sessions or readings or that type of thing? No. Were they interested in a professional sense that this is like something? No, it was straight up professional.

It was one more agency that they dealt with. We got, you know, I got some questions. I can only speak about what I did. I got some questions from the from the White House scientists. You know, they have a scientist assigned to advise them. I got questions from him on two or three occasions that may have come from some other source.

I don't know, so I can't talk to that. But I can tell you that there was no direct contact between anybody and a president. at the time. If anybody claims that, they're, you know, out of it. There were some pretty high-level people that sometimes asked questions, like committee members and things like that. And I had to give a demonstration once to the Senate Select Subcommittee for Intelligence, which was done in camera in secret.

And this was basically done every year. I can't tell you what happened in the process, but I can tell you that the reason it was done is they wanted input from everybody we supported. And everybody would go in and say, this is what they did for us, this is how it worked, this is what was good, this is what failed.

And based on that, they would have approval over whether we got funded for another year. And it lasted 21 years, so that, you know, somebody comes to your rest, drawn every day and eats there, you know they're getting something of value. I can't speak to the individuals who are tasking us. That all went through the colonel and the training officer. But I would say generally speaking, the people who brought stuff to us were absolutely

thoroughly approval, agreed with what we were doing. It's such an interesting thing, you know, for anyone out there, who may be a little skeptical. Like if you just, and take the science research aside, because I'm sure that that itself, the research that you guys did over that time, must be staggering and just a large, large, large, like, repertoire archive of research that you guys.

Oh, absolutely. And it's all published. And it's all published. Yeah. So it's not like nobody has access to it. Yeah. You can buy it. And it's in four volumes.

is stacked like that. It's the original science. There's probably 1.8 million words. We had to cut it down to 1.4. I'm using the pregnant we now. Dr. May and a young lady by the name of Sinali Mojahah in India are the two people who actually went over everything, put it into order,

and had it ready for print. What's the name of that collection? The collection is, well, it's the remote viewing, science behind remote viewing. I will show you the four books before you leave. You can photograph them and see the titles and all that. One volume is totally on psychokinesis, you know, affecting things with a mind. The conclusion in that one book is that psychokinesis, you know, affecting things with a mind. the conclusion in that one book is that psychokinesis doesn't exist.

And the reason why, I'm going to tell you the reason why. When we started, we had a, I think it was a strain gauge, but I'm not sure. Strain gauge locked up inside a sealed aquarium, okay? And we had a circle one meter away, and you couldn't go inside the one meter, and you couldn't touch it, but you had to affect the string gauge from behind the yellow line. The problem was every now and then it would go off anyway, and we discovered heavily loaded dump trucks going over a steel plate out on Route 5, I think it was, the big highway. Every time they hit the steel plate, the string gauge would go off.

They're a mile and a half away. Wow. So we floated it on air and put more shielding around it, and it still kept going off. Then we kind of discovered that the heavy elevator, the industrial elevator in the engineering department of SRI, sometimes it would come down past the safety switch. And when it did, it would go, eh,

and our string gauge would go, eh. So we shielded for that. Make a long story short, over a year trying to make the experiment work by isolating it from all the other possibilities. We never could isolate the target ever. So if you can't isolate something from a human being, you can't say it's psychokinesia. because it could be anything else. So that's the conclusion. Makes sense.

Half a million dollars we spent on that. And that was something that I guess Yuri Geller was involved into initially, right? As a magician, I'm very familiar with Yuri and his work, we'll say. You know, there was, quickly, just maybe, like, we can touch on it briefly, but what are your thoughts on that? Because as a magician, it's really hard not to throw the baby out with a bathwater with his work because I know for a fact that some of his work is more akin to charlatan. Well, there's two things I'll tell you, okay.

One is he was never actually blessed by anything he did when he came to Esteroy International. He wanted it all to be done in the lab. by them and they refused because they know about him okay so he brought his own guy along with him and they did experiments in the building and they called that observed and condoned by sri international which it was not never was now i did a special for a bc at one of their studios out by the airport. And what they did is they introduced me, locked me in a soundproof room sitting in a chair where my legs went to sleep.

So the whole time I'm on camera doing this, you know, trying to get comfortable because my back is a mess. The problem was when my wife and I arrived the night before, friends picked us up and the only restaurant still open was the crab at LAX. It looks like a big flying saucer on legs, and it's got LAX on the side and everything. So when they brought, they had a woman, they took out of the audience, and they gave her money and a film crew and a helicopter and told her she could go anywhere in the area and call in when the cameras were there at a film crew.

and she left and then they put me in the room so I couldn't know if there was any discussions about where she went or any of this so I went in the room the whole time I'm in the room I am being bombarded in my head by L.A.X. restaurant

which is right across the parking lot and I'm thinking well that's where I was last night so I'm trying to empty my mind and put it out of my mind the whole time for almost an hour and they finally they brought me out set me to death

of the big thing card with white card with a magic market can you draw where she is and up until that point all I'm getting is alex restaurant so I remembered something

it's a rule I have when I teach people and it's trust the system and I heard this very loud voice in my head. It said, trust the system. So I drew a picture of the LAX restaurant. And they looked at it and said, wow, you know, that's right across the parking lot.

And I said, yeah, and I was there last night for dinner. And I'm saying all these things about how it could be wrong. And they told her to turn on the camera and she walked in. She had been having coffee. at the LAX restaurant because he's scared of helicopters. And so I absolutely nailed it. And so they break for commercials, and there's these feet running behind the curtain

all the way around the studios round. So they're going all the way around like this. And Yuri pops out of the curtain, runs up on the stage, and grabs my hand, and he goes, that is the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my whole life and he's pumping my hand. I said, thank you, Erie.

It's nice coming from you. And he runs off the stage and they come back from commercial. That's so much. What does that training process look like? And while you're in there, are there any, like, new recruits that you guys are bringing in? Is there protocol for those? Because there are, the way I've understood, there are, like, different schools of thought in this. That's right.

And one can be, yeah, this can be taught and everything else. And then no, there needs to be a natural ability involved. And then from there, there's also, you know, differentiating techniques. But what does that look like when you're in there? Are you bringing new people in? Are you training them? Is that something that they're interested in doing? That didn't happen until the very end of my time at Fort Meade.

I spent seven years in the project before I retired. almost my entire prior time was overseas. I spent almost 14 straight years overseas going from far east to Europe, far east to Europe, and on an active intel mission. So I really didn't like the project. But the general sent me there, so I did the best I could. When I had the five first, or four first place matches,

or five first place matches in one near second place and came back to Fort Meade, my training consisted of doing remote viewings. Just over and over. Over and over. I had 24 straight failures. And I'm going to tell you why. The ego got involved.

I'm the greatest remote viewer in the world. That's what they told me. So why isn't this working? I think it's because when somebody first starts, they nail it because the ego mind, the ego-driven part of the mind, I don't know what's going on here. I'm going to back away and see what happens. And they nail it. Almost everybody nails the first target they get. Then they step back in, the ego says, now I know what's going on. I'm in charge. And you have failures. And I think that's what happens.

24 straight failures. My 25th target I did, I was ready to walk away. 25th target, all I got was a screaming pain in my head, and that's what I said. I said, I don't know what this is, and we drove through the target, and we pulled in front of the fire station. So we're parked in front of the fire station. This doesn't look like my target. All I had was a screaming headache, and all of the fire station. alarms went off.

It was like, get me out of here, you know, and we pulled away from the fire department. Then I knew what had masked the target for me. From that point on, it was a battle with the ego. Every time you do a remote viewing, you got a trashed ego, put it away, and be totally non-committal to it. It's seen a way you can be accurate. The other problem, for me anyway, in training, was there are still times when you blow the target. You're never perfect at it.

So maybe one out of 30 I'm blowing, but it's nevertheless, if this is supposed to work, it's supposed to work all the time. And then you learn to let that go. So it's a question of destroying the way you think since you were born. The way you think about reality in this comes out of what your parents told you when you were growing up, what your neighbors told you that you respected, what your preacher told you in church, what your teachers told you in school, etc., etc. have this model of the universe that everybody operates by and everybody's in agreement or

close to agreement so you can discuss things with people and when you bring up psychic functioning you know god would have told us we had that if it worked that sort of thing what you have to do is destroy all those automatic habitual habitualized things i don't know if that's a word where you would normally process it this way. No, you start processing it differently in the way you think. And when you start doing that, time and space goes away. The rules go away. Everything goes away.

Now, what I'd like to speak to is the protocol. Okay. The protocol, there is two protocols that have ever been approved or written. They were both done at SRI. One is for remote viewing and the other is for associative remote viewing. That's for a binary question. Yes or no, red or white, that sort of thing. So you rehabilitualize or make a habit out of all the things you do differently.

That's the only way to deal with the ego and all the problems that become involved in this. And when you do that, it's a free, kind of a freeing up of the mind. You come to the point where the remote viewing has become habitual. And so you're willing to say, trust the system and just go with it. Almost like second nature. Yeah. Or what is it, what is remote, is remote viewing I've heard it described to more like a language? No.

No, not like a language at all. More like just like a like breathing. Is it? It's like any normal thing you would. do as a hunter. Right, I see. If you went out to hunt, you'd listen, you would like receive. You listen before you take your step, all that sort of thing.

And your senses are then heightened as a hunter because you're under stress. It's like if I'm in Vietnam and I come up on a big clearing and I'm in a patrol of some kind, I'm going to hit the ground and study that clearing very carefully before I take my guys into that clearing. Right. And you study that clearing maybe for two hours. People don't believe that, but that's what happens. You lay there and you watch that clearing.

And at some point, you may be an hour and 50 minutes out. And you'll see that little puff of smoke comes up when the guy lit his cigarette. And you back away from the clearing and you go around it and it costs you an entire day. So what? You're still breathing. Okay. Most people don't understand in long-range patrols where they go out to into an enemy's AO for as much as two weeks and study something to collect intel, that has to be done extremely carefully because if they find evidence that you're in their AO, their area of operation, they release dogs and they got dogs on you and possibly. two platoons, and they're setting up ambushes all on the way.

And believe me, they know everywhere you can be evacked from. Most guys in the patrol stuff, radio, whether it's radio, whether it's just deep patrols for Intel, half of those units disappear. They just disappear. So that's, yeah, so that's more, it speaks more, again, to, like, that survival, that instinctive survival mechanism that innately exists and that would you say would you say that like near-death experience had an effect on remote view there's uh you know obviously there's the school of uh classical trained psychics i guess who believe that uh near-death experiences um offer

some type of insight into like the source or wherever you know we're going or we're coming from that that's possible i didn't have my near-death experience. I've had three of them, by the way. I didn't have my major near-death experience occur until years later when I was in Germany. You'd already developed. Yeah, yeah. In actuality, I developed it when I was a child. I just didn't know it. I was using it all the time. My mother and my father were total alcoholics. And, when they were drinking, they didn't get along. And when they didn't get along, I and my four sisters took the hits.

And I always stepped in front of my sisters because they were all younger than me. Even my twin sister was younger, even though she was bigger and smarter. It didn't matter. I got between them and my parents. And it got to the point where I had to, like, read my parents and know when that was coming. and I'd send my sister somewhere, or I'd get involved with them, so I was there. I did it on a regular basis.

And then where we lived was absolute slumville, you know, the bars and the windows and the doors. I was, for a very long period of my life, I was the token white kid on the neighborhood. You know, we had Haitian refugees in one place, Cuban refugees another. others in different areas. And, I mean, he had to be the fastest kid on the block plus.

So I learned a lot of that when I was growing up. You know, reading people, knowing which direction to go that they couldn't follow you. It was, that's my life growing up. I see. So I just kept applying it. It was just purely instinctual, always always on the instinctive. Right. Right.

And so how do you, how do you end up channeling that when you're asked to do a task that you know nothing about by someone, you don't even know who the person wanting this information is? Like, how do you even channel that type of instinctual, you know, sense? Well, that's exactly how you do it instinctively and know that you can do it. The problem is, the real problem comes in in the fact that. that the person coming in the door doesn't know how you're doing it. They have a problem. They give what they want to somebody,

and like the training officer of the colonel, and they try to turn it into a task that's doable. The problem with that is that the tasking itself sometimes drive you off the target. There's lots of things that come to play there, which is why I really wanted to see more comfortable, with the science side, which is why I wound up in the science side, because I kept voicing that to them as well as the scientists. And so you reach a point where some of your failures are

obviously based on the way you were tasked. So a lot of people, a lot of yours would go, well, I need better tasking or I can't do this. In my mind, I thought, well, I have to learned to retask myself to give them what they need. And so no matter what the tasking was at some point in my period in the project, at some point in there I said, I'm just going to give them what's going to make them happy. And so they could task me and I ignored it. Right. They didn't even need a tasker.

Yeah. Just give me what I need to make them happy. And so my answers sometimes confuse the person who, what's the target in until they understood it matched their need and not what they thought they needed. So you were the better tasker. And they would come back and say later they'd come back and say, I didn't know I needed this, but this solved my whole problem.

And that's why the guys in the field really liked me a lot. You know, they come in and say, give this the number one. I just want number one to do this. And towards the last 18 months, that's all they got was number one. because nobody else was doing it. You feel like, I mean, I already know the answer, but, you know, this is a project that went on through military for 20 plus years and millions of dollars.

And then when, you know, Nightline, they made this 60-minute thing or whatever it was. That sort of, because it was speculated that the Pentagon was spending money on these projects, which they denied for years. obviously because it's top secret. You can't divulge that type of thing. But then when Nightline did this special,

that's when everything sort of got flipped on its head and the Army intelligence sort of backed away from it and kind of even just didn't want to be associated with the program whatsoever. And things became declassified. But in that period, like it's really hard for me to believe that the Army or whatever, you know, whatever branch. Just quit and walked away.

Yeah. And it feels so cheap and it feels so cheap and accurate. It feels like the cheapest form of spy tech. And the most, like the most accurate. Like, how could you just... Let me set my care up a little bit. Yeah, no problem. How could you step away from a problem?

Here's some of the problems. When you look at $21 million, or $23 million over 18 years or whatever, 20 years or whatever it was. That's chicken feed. That's pocket money. They spent $480,000 for the helmets of the guys who are flying the F-35s now.

It's BS. The CIA had just finished a fight with Congress over MK Ultra. which is the use of LSD for interrogation purposes. They gave it to one of their own guys at a party, and he took a dive out of a nine-story building. So Congress raked them over the coals back and forth for two years, and then assigned them this project.

So the CIA is like, not on your best day. And then the Congress is saying, you work for us, we don't work for you. so you will take this, turn it black, and bury it somewhere. Okay. Not going to happen. So they engineered a review of the entire project, and they hired two people they thought would be negative.

One of them happened to be a person who has denied the possibility of it for a long, long time. Unfortunately, in his report, he came out and said, yeah, there is something going on here. I wouldn't call it psychic. I don't know what it is. I haven't figured it out yet, but there's something going on. The statistician, who was probably the best statistician in the world, said, this is world-class psychic functioning statistically. It's off the chart.

Anomalous. Yeah, in every way you can review it. I've known her for a long time, and she is, you don't mess with her in her statistics, okay? So they had a problem, so that and a number of other issues. The reason it was outed on Nightline, there's a reason for that, is you will know if you go back over the history of Nightline, they outed a lot of stuff, okay? I think they were the go-to people for outing something. And the... You're saying they were fed information?

Yeah. The statements by Robert Gates on that show are lying through omission. Okay, he made a statement. He said, in not one case, was remote viewing information, used a standalone information for anything that ever... happen it's a CIA that's lying through omission because in the army the CIA dIA NSA any of those places never use a single source for anything it's got to be two sources one supports the other because they will not risk lives otherwise okay nobody will so that's

lying through omission leaves you with an impression and it never worked right when in fact it worked 80, 80% of the time. In fact, when it first started, the investigation scientifically, it was down in the 30 percentile or something, and they made some changes to the way they treated the people that were doing the remote viewing. Not the way... Not the protocol.

No. Didn't change a thing, the protocol. Changed how they brought the person into the room, made them the most important person in the room, put them in a sealed room and gave them a target and expected them to have an output, which they did, and their results went to 80%. Okay, when it worked. It just shot up there, and they were accused of cheating.

And so they gave the protocol to other labs, and they validated it. They told them, you got to do this, you got to do that, but here's the protocol. they did it within the protocol, double-blind, they went to 80%. So there was no question that this is something's happening here. It was SRI that continued the investigation and the remote viewing because they wanted to make it 100%. It will never be 100%.

As a survival mechanism, I think that's what it is. And I think they tweaked it just enough in the way they protocol. it so that they get an individualized view into different targets. The way Howe Put-off says, he says, you put up a cardboard block on a window, and you just punch a hole through it with your finger, and you see a little bit of the target. That's what you get, and you punch your finger through there six or eight times.

You get data, some of which is important enough to change. change the view of the target. That's how it actually works. The idea that it can be used to fruition, meaning you can target an intercontinental ballistic missile field and draw it in detail, you better find somebody who's world class who's got 40 years of experience behind them

because that's the only way you're going to get that. Otherwise, they're cheating. If somebody does a remote viewing from beginning to end, and draws a perfect rendition of a human being and says that's the target, they're cheating. It just doesn't happen down in the introductory levels of remote viewing. But it does happen in the expert? Yeah, world class, somebody who knows a lot about remote viewing

and is working in the science area and understands how they got to learn things and how what they got to destroy and rebuild in their own mind, they can be a world-class viewer. I've known four in my life. You've known four throughout your entire life. Yeah, besides me. And two of them are way better than me. And the only thing that differentiates me from others

is I'm also an artist. I'm a trained sculptor. I can paint, I can draw, I can do almost anything artistically. So when I present something as an artist, I put in detail that supports the viewing, it turns out to be correct. I did a drawing, I did tracking of an agent as an example. I think I heard about this. Yeah.

This was the three different locations? Right. Okay, please. Okay. Can you track an agent? Oh, yeah, a piece of cake. So the targeting material was the person's social security number. From that, you can't tell anything.

You know how old they are, you don't know they're male-female, you don't know where they work, you don't know anything. Just that's to the person. The first time I got a call was like at midnight and I was staying with a psychologist in San Francisco. I was going to do some viewing in the lab the next day. I got a telephone call. It was like 12.30 midnight.

Woke him up. He woke me up. I'm in the kitchen. He made coffee. And I did the target. And the target I drew was hills with sticks on them, something moving in a circle at the top of the sticks and dotted lines putting them all together,

saying this is some kind of an energy system in a field of hills. He was actually in a tuna pass or something. I don't know what they call it in California. Parked in the middle of the wind generator system. And I got a 99 because Dr. May says I didn't tell him the color of his rental car. Anyway. Can you divulge what agency this was or is that classified still?

No, I can't tell you what agency. but I can tell you that they were duly impressed. Okay. Okay. It had my psychologist friend snoring through the whole thing because he was faced down on the table in the kitchen while I was doing it. The next time I had a call, they said, trying to remember what the secondary was.

I can't. Was it the Collider or the Electroix? Oh, yeah, yeah. He was standing inside the accelerator building for the Collider at the University of Stanford University. It's out away from the college somewhere. I've never seen it. But I'm trying to draw this thing. I don't know if you've ever seen the inside of the generating area of a collider.

you can't draw it if you're standing there looking at it. I mean, it is so complicated. It's not funny. So I'm trying to draw this thing, and I wound up with this very screwed up, highly technical thing. And I finally, I stopped, and I said, I can't draw this stupid thing. It's an accelerator.

So the third time was the best one. He's, it's midnight, and he's at the, at, let me think a minute, Los Alamos, oh, shoot, he's at the Westgate of Los Alamos Lab or something. Mm-hmm. I can't remember the name of it, but it's a big lab facility. The research facility in Los Angeles. Research facilities where they build bombs. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, where they built the A-bomb. Exactly. Yeah. Manhattan Project. There's a T-shaped building there, and it's seven floors, and on the top of the roof, there's a little shack. That's where the guard stands. And just below that is the director's office.

It's right in the center, faces out on the whole lab. And I said he was, I drew that T-shaped building, and I put a lab facility all around it in a row of trees down both sides of the road, and big parking areas, and a check-in gate. And I put a road in, I said, big city that direction. And when I drew the T-shaped building, I said, he's in the T-shaped building, top floor, he's in the director's office, smoking one of the director's cigars with his feet crossed up on the desk. That's exactly where he was, exactly what he was doing, okay?

But my last story, they came back. And that was the A building. That just blew them out of the box. So they came back and said, he's working on something. We don't know what it is. Tell us what it is. And so I drew two things. The one thing I put in a big van, big tractor trailer,

and I drew what is basically microwave equipment, very detailed inside the van pointed out of the open end of the van at a bunch of stuff on the ground at a certain beam with and I gave them unfortunately I gave them the frequency but they had to interpret it the frequency I gave them was for something else but it actually matched exactly the frequency of the microwaves that he was using and the bandwidth that he was projecting was dead on, 60 degrees, and he was cooking electronic equipment at distance using this, okay?

And it was a brand new piece of equipment and everything. And so I drew all that. And I said, but he also has something to do with the solar array down the road. There's a big tower and there's a whole, lot of mirrors, like 300, 400, 400 mirrors all pointed at the tower. And they're made up of pieces that computers can refigure them to project a perfect beam to the tower. And on top of the tower, they create a huge energy burst. And they're testing energy production using the sun. And my monitor said, well, which one is he working on? I said, well, that's kind of his hobby.

Well, they came back immediately and said, wow, he did an amazing thing with the target, but our guy has no hobbies. That's what they said. So my feedback is they're going to allow me to see what he's done. So we go out to Sandista, the labs at Sandista, out in the desert, and we're driving in the car. We had a driver taking us there, and we're driving in this car. and we came over a hill and this guard put a guard thing down. He said, I'm sorry, I can't let you go any further.

We're testing the solar array. And Dr. May turns to me and he says, I wish I had a bag. I'd put it over your head. I don't know why you got that too. But we sat there. You could smell the ozone in the air and they built this like miniature sun on the tip of the top.

It really impressed me a lot. I said, wow, that's so cool. And Ed was so mad because I had seen it. So we drive, they lift the thing, we're going down the road, and there's this car coming down the road on the left, a big cloud of dust behind it. And it turned right in front of us and headed down the road in front of us. So we pull up in this guy's place, and that's where the car went.

We get out. I said, didn't we just see you coming from the solar array? And he says, yeah, that's kind of my hobby. I go over there for lunch. said that on tape. Ah, we got him. And then I see the stuff. Well, what they did is they took my remote viewing and all my statements,

gave it to an independent agency, and they came back and said, we can build this, and said exactly what he was building and what he was doing based on the remote viewing. Now, we got a nice check for research from this group of people. They never talked to us again. it scared them so badly, I think. They'd never had anything done like that. Do you think it scared them on a security level? Absolutely.

Well, that's the thing, though. It's like, I mean, it would almost be more to their benefit to lean into it more than to back away from it, wouldn't it? That's my view. Yeah. You don't bury your head in the sand if you got a threat. That's right, especially if you don't know exactly anything about the threat. Right. you don't know a thing about it.

You know you can use it and you know there are no secrets. Yeah. But it must be scary to, you know, work in a field where classification and secrecy is paramount knowing that, oh, it's all for not if this exists, like hiding things. Well. You know what I mean? It can be absolutely useless. By the time I did that, I did that,

I was probably five years into SRI. I see. So I was continuing to grow and mature as a viewer working with the scientists because I will tell you they are a lot harsher about the protocol. Right. Than anybody. Makes sense. So being that way and being able to perform in that really does something to your understanding

and your belief and your. constructs that you live by. It makes you a better viewer. Has that changed over the years? You've seen yourself just constantly outperforming what you've done, or do you hit a plateau at all? No, I think the plateau's very early. The plateau's early.

Yeah. And that plateau has a lot to do with how far you're willing to go with it. I see. Once you, it's kind of like going up onto a plateau. When you hit that plateau, you go, oh, my God, it's a whole different one. world. You're changed by then. Things have altered for you. You don't have us, you don't believe anything in terms of time. Time goes away completely and you start thinking about how you work within a broader framework of time than not. It's like, I'll take a past target as far back

as you want to go. Take a future target, maybe a week. there's a difference. You take a past target, all the conceptualizations that people might have about it. Existing, being real, why it's happening, is way understandable.

You can go two weeks ahead in some labs and describe what they're doing. You know, I have a clue, not a clue, because the concepts haven't been developed yet. Do you think that has to do with free will? It's got a lot to do with being able to say what it is or report on how it's what it's intended to do.

Right. Something that actually happened versus we can't see into the future because it hasn't been created yet. It's like I give you an example. If targets you're doing are slightly past targets, and I'm just talking weeks or days, and you're working on issues around, high-energy lasers as an example. You're in the pointer stage, okay? You jump five weeks ahead to Sylvania

and you target the first laser that burned through three inches of stainless steel with a light beam. You see that, and you describe that to me and tell me why it's happening. You don't know because nobody knows why that's happening. I mean, it's kind of like, well, you may get the data,

but you're not going to draw it. The data has to exist in some form. Yeah. So what it does, eventually you reach up like a, what I call it, tertiary plento. You've got to be in the job 30 years and digging scientifically into why you are doing it in all the reasons that support it

and all the changes that take place. And somewhere around 30 years, you can draw what's occurring. And people say, you're full of crap. That's not real. That's a problem, okay? Because now you've got to wait until somebody says, this is what we have and this is what it does. And then you know you're right.

You understand what I'm saying? I do understand. It's hard. Yeah. Or is it like refining at that point? You refine the presentation of the material. I see. You don't get any better at getting it.

I see. So it's the interpretation of what your sensing gets better. Right. Right. But it's loud and clear every time. Right. I see. Yeah.

And it's hard. It's hard to get there. Right. Because you have to change in here and up here in order to get there. Are you a religious person? Are you someone who follows religious? But when I was born, I was a Baptist. So my mother and father were Baptist.

So I was brought up a little ways in the Baptist Church. At some point, my mother decided we needed to be Methodist. I think some of her sisters were Methodist and talked her into it. I don't know. It confused me because I had to get baptized twice and I had to get Bible studies twice. I couldn't understand why. And then in my 12th year or somewhere in there, she decided being a Catholic was a good thing.

I got baptized a third time and went back to Bible school. And by then it was like, yeah, okay. So I was Catholic when I went to high school. And I was in high school with 80% of the class people not being Catholic. So in the parts that were religious, I was arguing positions that sometimes were against Catholic belief. But I had one of my priest who was teaching, pull me aside and tell me I was an A student. He had no other A student in the class. He said, because my positions I could defend.

That's all he cared about. It's my belief, I could defend my belief. That taught me something. That taught me that what I believe and what I do has to match my personal morality and ethics. Okay. Now, I learned a long time ago, and I learned this right when I first went in the Army, and carried it all the way through to being a warrant officer and everything else. ethics and morality are the two things you can never delegate to somebody else.

You can't give it away. You can't assign it. And I've heard so many people say you'd give them everything you got and let them decide what to do with it. Wrong. Okay. So in the intel business, there's a lot of people when they find out, well, you can do this like in a psychic way and nobody will know. and they look at you really weird when you say did you bring your warrant with you it's like

what nobody's gonna know yeah yeah but it's an American citizen yeah I need a warrant your ethics and morality have to to the line when 9-11 occurred I remember there being huge arguments about throw them all out and somebody else saying, no, no, no, we should find a really good people and have them help us, you know. But there were arguments. So, well, they don't, they believe this, you know, how are they going to help us. They weren't even accurate in their assessments. So I got in my little the yacht. I drove over across town in D.C. to the mosque and walked in and asked the head of the mosque.

I said, can I ask you? I told him, I said, I'm from, you know, 902nd in my group. Can I sit and talk to you about what it is to be a Muslim? Because I don't know and I need to know. And he said, certainly, and we had tea, we sat for about three hours and just talked. And I taped the whole thing. Asked him first.

Sure. And he was ready to help anyway. I went back with it to the headquarters. I'm walking in and the guards just the general wants to see you. So I go in to see the general, and the general's going, oh, look here, a picture of you going into the mosque. Here's one taken by our buds over at such a country. It's you going in the mosque.

They got half the world watching that mosque. nobody's going in to ask for help. So I left the tapes on this desk. I said, that's truth in the tapes. You might want to listen to it. Did we do anything? No. A lot of people just went on with their hatred and their beliefs.

That's unconscionable to me. If somebody did that to me in the field, you know, what are you going to do? So that's always sort of been a part of your life, but have you ever had a point where you had to rearrange how you thought once this was introduced? Like what was that like? What was that moment like or what was that reading like? Was there a session?

Was that after those five? Or like what was that inner like crisis like? Oh, everything changed. Am I a religious person? No, I'm a spiritual person. There is no doubt that there's a grand engineer somewhere or something that's created all of this. Is he, he, she, it? Does it have an interest in me personally?

Probably not. I am equipped to be here. I'm another human being that was born and I'm equipped to be here. It's just that I can choose how I want to pay attention to how I'm equipped. I can get more education if I want it, which I did. I thought, for a long time, I thought going to school, like college, is you go when you need information for something specific. So I would go and take three or four classes on something and accumulate the credit hours and everything, but never for a degree. So I'm going to this teacher's college in New York for like years, just whenever I wanted something.

So I'm accumulating all these credit hours, and I get this call one day. You can't do that. Well, why not? It has to do with degrees. You need a degree. Why? You just have to have a degree. So I had to pick from four degrees, and I had one month to finish sociology.

And I lacked one course. I could take sociology and get it and get computer. computers is a second. And I said to them, why are you forcing me to do this? And it has to do with money and structure. I'm taking up a seat that somebody will spend way more money on. Yep. Okay. And I just found it to be ludicrous. And guess what happened to all my credit hours when I got my degree? Gone. You know, gone from the record. So it's stupid, the whole thing. But that's not how I live my life. I live my life the way I want to.

It fulfills me in the way I want to be fulfilled. And that's different for every individual, I suppose. Yeah, it is. And so you're affected by the things you do. You're affected by the things you learn. And you're affected by remote viewing. You know, we spent a day with that. We got to talk to him for a long.

time and yeah i mean he he seems to be more about using remote viewing for not so much personal game but personal gain maybe in in subjects that are esoteric and and uh yeah there's no proof great grail things and and yeah what are your impressions of uh you know deal um you see i've known known him, known about him, and all that. And in the 902nd MI group,

we were part of a section called SSPD, very small. Lots of analysts, analytic people, lots of people who pride themselves on their reports and stuff, which may or may not be that accurate, but he thinks

a big deal about himself. And the first thing he did was he violated the protocols. That's not good. He trains his view of how Ingo Swan was training and Ingo Swans' training was wrong. So his view of Ingo Swans' training

is double wrong. And so everything thing he teaches about remote viewing is questionable. And his targeting is even more questionable. And the results, which always fit the targeting perfectly, is questionable. And there's never any failures. So I don't trust him.

That's just how I feel. Fair enough. That's me now. That's as far as I want to go with it because, I'm too nice a guy No No it's doubly not with Ingo Swam See no I knew Ingo Swann

He's a really close friend We worked together at SRI For years His his His I talked to him about his training He didn't want to talk about it Because the army, he felt the army Scruting

But Ingo He told me the way he was teaching and it was basically sitting there with a target right in front of me, saying very good to someone who gave him a right answer and not saying anything at all when they gave him a bad answer. Well, that's an inappropriate teaching methodology. It was from the very beginning. Anybody that does that should recognize

that's not teaching somebody to be totally blind. That's teaching them to follow everything that's being, projected by the teacher, which eye movement, head movement, everything tells you something about what you're doing. And biased. It's a bias that gets in a way and people will get the target eventually by putting a lot of information down. Okay.

And if you get it, let's say you get, they had like stage one, stage two, stage three type of responses. If you're giving a response and somebody says, uh-uh. That's stage two. I don't want that yet. That's a valid perception on the target and you don't want it yet. Come on, you know. So would you, how does a session look like when you do a session?

How does that structure differ? I teach, I teach remote viewing at the Monroe Institute, have for years. And what I said, they came and asked me, our training officer, Skip Atwater, used to train. the remote viewing at the institute. A lot of what he presented was historic knowledge about how the program worked and everything. When he stopped, he retired and went away, which is about six years ago.

They came and asked me to fill in for him. I said this to the people at the institute. I said, I'll be glad to do that. But if somebody's paying a lot of money to come in here and learn to remote view, They should leave with the idea that they either had remote viewed or couldn't remote view, one or the other, but they should leave with that. Not a history of the unit. And so I'm changing it.

And not only that, but when we have a program, there's going to be some good things we see that we didn't include and there's going to be some bad things. I'm going to tweak it every single time we give it. And they said, do whatever you have to do. So that's how I run the program. In the beginning, I make sure that the people understand this is not about knowing what the target is. Remote viewers almost never know what the target is. Secondly, it's not about doing a perfect anything about the target. It's about bits and pieces that come into your head that you put on,

paper. If you can learn to put on paper what pops in your head in a sort of automatic way, you'll become a good remote viewer. Now, most people won't do that. They get a banana in their head. They won't put a banana down when the target might be a freaking banana. They just won't do it. So you have to pound that into their head. In the first couple days, when I get the entire group doing approximately what I want them to do, then I start introducing specific kinds of targets that are easier to get than others.

Under scientific rules, there are some targets that have a higher, a higher, I don't know what to call it. Successerator? They put out more, you have more energy,

going with those targets. We don't know why, but that seems to help. There are specific targets that are easier for a remote viewer to get. And that's across the board? That's across the board. What's an example? An example would be entropy of the target. The remote viewer will get more information.

Okay. Here's what happens. You have a target that, let's say, puts out enough energy that you get X amount, of statements about it. Yeah. If you can raise the entropy of the target, you get double the amount of statements. They don't, that doesn't mean they'll be right. You just get more information comes into the person's head.

So we tested that. The way you test it in a lab is you have a target pool, I want to say 3,000 targets. You randomly pick one and it's a local target and the person's going to go there and you show the picture of the person that went there and you say, tell us where they are. And what happens is on the way to the target, the person goes by this other lab and there's a little window with a shelf. And there's a thermos waiting for them on that shelf.

They take the thermos. And they get to their target. They stand in front of the target or stand in it. And they take the top off thermos and dump it on the ground. If it's tap water, there's no entropic rise. If it's liquid nitrogen, that's a huge entropy jump. It spikes, okay? During the spike, we got a lot more information

and some accurate information we wouldn't have gotten otherwise. Wow. Okay? That's just using entropy, okay? That's why I like the science side of things. Have you smashed a vase? Yeah. For instance, you would have a harder hit than if you'd place a vase there.

Or just put a drop of coffee in a glass of milk. That's an entropic change. You see. Entropy, for some reason, raises the amount of information transferred. Doesn't mean it'll be right or wrong. It just means it's more information. Oh, I'm sure there's a connection to that. I'm sure there's a connection.

Here's the other part of it. The other part of it is Lawrence Labatories, Westgate of Lawrence Labatories. That's where they build the bombs. How much entropy do you think is occurring in that place? Yeah. It's off the charts. How much energy is occurring in the,

the fans going around collecting electricity. How much energy is in a, accelerator. Okay? These are all like easy targets. Right. Okay. How much energy was in what the guy was building in the van.

You see, there's accompanying energy to just about everything you target in the military. You got all kinds of things out there you target that have huge spikes of energy in them. Just a matter of catching the spike. at one of the easiest targets in the world another country is going to detonate an atomic weapon how much energy is

going to be in that or how much isn't going to be in that in other words will it succeed or will it fail? We've never had a viewer that could not tell you

when it would fail. This is no spike. And is that, is that, and that's not even ARV, that's just, Just plain remote viewing. Yeah. And there's other things involved.

You give somebody a target that's a bicycle leaning up against an art museum. That's a doable target. But give him a target where somebody's been hit over the head, tied, blindfolded, taken somewhere as a hostage, and is chained to a radiator inside a tent, inside an apartment, and his eyes are taped shut and they're playing acid rock through his ears and he's terrified. Can you find that guy?

Hell yes. Because of the emotional entropy. Yes. Or if he's a colonel who happened to be a friend of mine, I knew him, I knew his wife, I knew his kids, we were good friends kidnapped. UN, he was a UN representative in Lebanon, taken by the

by the Hezbollah tortured to death with a blow torch I know exactly where he was being held gave him exactly how to get to him I knew he was being tortured and I knew he was dying single source they wouldn't go right because it's the only source

six months later they captured one of the guys that was torture him and I was correct on everything I gave him That hurts. When you look in the civilian world, you look for a missing person and you spend seven hours fighting with the local sheriff and anybody else controlling the search. And they finally let you go in because nothing else is working.

And you find the body, and it's under an hour that they died because there's no lividity. Right. What do you feel like doing? Yeah. I mean to tell you, it hurts. And there's those problems. And so there's a lot of down stuff you do with remote gear.

There's a lot of high stuff you do. You rescue the guy as the guns being put against his head, and you rescue him, and you bring him in, and you have him look at his own data. And the remark out of them is, you ought to have a school to train people how to think to help their own rescue. This, I was mentioned, I believe, by General Dozier, right? Yeah, that's right. He had talked about, you know, you should train people in those scenarios on how to observe their surroundings to aid.

And to aid their rescue. Yeah, he, and he spent easily three hours. hours going over the data over and over and that was his only recommendation. Yeah. Because he was in a situation that was pretty dicey. Yeah. If I'm not mistaken at that time, it was a little confusing because it was in Italy that this happened and the Italian police were being fed so much false information by...

They had over 800 psychics in Italy respond. Right. So they put our stuff in there. The first two psychics they went with were theirs who had been on television, so they trusted them. Right. And one raid they made outed one of their senators in bed with his good friend, another guy when he was married and had kids. Yikes.

And that was all over television. And the second one was something similar. So they took the whole pile of psychics and put them in the trash. And our stuff had to be sent out a second time by jet. And they were state department. them to use it. So, you know, and then you have an apartment with four entries, you enter the wrong door and the guy's kills. How do you know which door? And a guy named Hartley Trent, who's dead now. He died while he was working in the project, came in one morning and said,

I just, I worked on this all night and all I ever got was the smell of roses. One door entry he had a whole bunch of roses planted around it. That's the door they went in. That's the apartment he was in. So stuff like that. It's Harley Trent died. Rob Cowart died. My best friend died in my office, 29 years old.

Just got married. Had a child on the way. I think he's married four months. Already had a kid on the way. he was supposed to be in New York doing something. He came on my office that morning, and I said, aren't you supposed to be in New York? And he said, you know, I'm tired.

I don't know why. He said, this is so hard. And I said, sit on the couch. I'll get you a cup of coffee. And I went in and get him coffee. And I heard the bump when he hit the floor. Came out. I gave him CPR for 30 minutes.

We were right across in the hospital, but they took us off all the math. so the ambulance didn't know where to go. Oh, no. I gave him CPR the whole time, and he died. Anyway, his heart was just trashed. 29 years old. The stress in this thing was like off the charts

because you were supporting life and death issues in many cases. And would it be to, I guess because a lot of times you didn't know about the target, right? They would, you would know nothing because it was like maybe the clear, the, the, the, the, the clearances were above your heads in some cases, like, you were on a need to know. Mm-hmm. But you would, you would be doing these sessions and then you'd piece it together, right? Yeah. Things that, like, they can't hide from you. Right.

You knew the information. I mean. You knew you were dealing with hostages, let's say, or, you know, or people that were imprisoned and you would figure that out. Or you knew you were dealing with. information they wanted on a spy they caught or something. They, in case, there actually was a case where they caught some guy, he was a spy, and they got him, they caught him in Africa, I think. Oh, the calculator.

Yeah, turn him over to our people. And when they did, they needed to know how does he encrypt his material. And what he got from three of us was he used his. what looks like a transistor radio but you turn the knob certain way it encrypts. They didn't have a radio and they searched all this belongings, nothing. No radio.

We said, you need to go back to South Africa and talk to the police that picked him up. So they did, and one of the cops took the radio and gave it to his kid. And this kid was playing a radio. So they got the radio and they had the encryption device. So that was like a double

Antondra or or whatever you want to say it. Do you have to sign a lot of NDAs after these sessions? They make you sign a lot of NDAs after these sessions sometimes? No, no, no at all. Because everything was already top secret. Everything, everything was classified, everything was special intelligence, everything was no foreign, which I found kind of funny because when the CIA said nothing

worked, a couple people went to the CIA with requests for information on the project. and the CIA came back and said there isn't and they said hey you told us on national television that they didn't do anything that worked so why is it classified so the CIA dumped everything what they did is they took out each folder and shuffled all the folders together so you couldn't tell what went with what folder that that was for a start and then they left some very valid things out that did work, and we knew they worked, and could prove it, and they kept those aside, and they just dumped it all on the, like, games, guys like that,

and it all came out on the Internet, and it was like nothing like we had done, but what it did is it declassified everything. Now, we had one book with just the reports on what we did, and that was from the science side. And the funny thing about it is, well, you can see from the reports that some stuff went in and nothing came back

and other things we got loads of stuff back on. So there's lots of stuff hidden in there, but there's a lot of stuff that never got released. I had a friend in the Navy SEALs. He's a commander. He went in to review some of the stuff in the boxes. He had the fight to get in there. He was given access to the boxes.

And when he was, he said, not a single box had a seal broken on him. That's like 100 boxes of information. The CIA never broke the seals on them. Not only that, and this is what changed my mind about going over to the science side, the science side was sending us to our colonel was sending these packets with how to improve the remote viewing,

you know, like the entropy, stuff like that. And those packets were in the boxes still sealed the way they were sent. So the colonel didn't give them to anybody. just hit them in a safe. So there were eight or nine things in there that could have been helping us. We were never allowed to see. And the reason why is the guys who were in the unit adamantly refused to go near the science side.

They wouldn't participate with them. They would do nothing. In their minds, the science guys were there to prove it was all wrong and wasn't working, when in fact it was the exact eye. Yeah, and which shouldn't be a problem if it does work. Hey, it's not a problem if it doesn't work. Yeah, that's what we were there for. Yeah.

That's what I was there for. That's why when I hit the end of my seven years in the unit, I had every bit of an intention to go into the science site. I wanted to know more about why, how, who done it, that kind of thing. When you get past that threshold of, is it real, you have to get into, well, How does this work right? And Dr. May and I, we're like brothers now. He helped me so much improve my viewing

and told me things about the remote viewing process that they knew. And I was flabbergasted. That was never shared with anybody in our unit the whole time. I mean, and then by then there was people didn't even know where remote viewing was, really. They were inventing it as they went. So I have a lot of questions about those that followed me.

At one point, I was trying to improve the viewing. So at one point I went to my boss's boss, the guy who ran the whole 902nd, and I told him, I said, I need like a quarter of a million dollars to go out and buy an individual system for each desk, you know, a computer input for each desk and a mainframe because there's some programming I want to do for repetitive stuff. I thought if we could file away repetitive information, that would help. And he approved it.

He said he needed some time. He called me on the phone, and he said, I'm going to approve your request. And I said, that's good because I already bought the system. I had it installed and everything. And so I wrote some pretty complicated programs for it. And the guy coming in behind me, one of the guys coming in behind me, was, quote, a computer expert.

You know everything about computers, so he was like a double hitter. They were glad to get him because he could remote, he was psychic and could work with computers. and a month after I left, it was the whole system was extricated from our unit and taken over to the admin area and dumped on them because he wasn't using it. No.

It's like, you know, why? What do you hope for the future of remote viewing? What's your hope? What's your aspiration for the subject and the work? It was a hard decision for me. to make because it was obvious that the government didn't want to use it anymore. But everybody was saying it was something it wasn't. And everybody in the unit was saying it was something it wasn't.

And so I made a decision to demonstrate it live on television if I could. It started out. Everybody was anti, you know. I remember the first program I did in Japan was called Battle TV. And they would have people on who claim they could do certain things and have two panels. One panel over here was all like post-grads out of college. Culleners on their head, springs with the stars and buttons and stuff bouncing around,

crazy people. This panel over here were the ones against, and they all wore suits and ties. And at the beginning of the show, the guy stepped up to the microphone and gave a very impassioned speech in Japanese. He was the head of the physics department, the University of Tokyo.

And what he said was, I will come in here after the show and prove there's a trick. If they give me access to the films, I'll prove there's a trick. I'll find it. If I can't, I'll resign my position at the University of Tokyo. He actually said that on national television.

Tokyo's 70 million viewers. He actually said that. So I'm sitting there and I'm going to display remote viewing. And the whole place was anti-success. Never going to happen, right? So they showed me a picture of this woman and they said she's got a film crew and she left early this morning

for somewhere in Japan. She had permission to use the bullet train so she could be anywhere, okay? We want to tell us where she is. She got a whole film crew with her. So I said, okay, and I said she's, I drew it. In fact, I said it looks like a pond,

but it's a bathing area. It's probably neck high in water. And it's surrounded on the outside. by fake things, a fake fence, made out of concrete, some concrete trees, and like a little tiny tea house modeled up against the wall, that kind of thing. And I remember the guy running the program said, he took the mic and he said, oh, Joe Sond, that's not possible. We have no fake trees in Japan. We don't build fake things and put them indoors. We keep them outdoors and they're not fake and he's explaining why it's all wrong and i was really detailed about it too and he does all this

stuff so i'm sitting there thinking no i'm absolutely screwed here and they get the woman on the phone and you can hear her voice and she's laughing and the guy says well why are you laughing she says they just stole my towel i'm trying to get it back and so can you be on tvs you're yet. She said, yeah, I have a towel. Go ahead. And she pops up on the TV and she's up to here and water and she's got a towel wrapped around her front. Okay? She's in a pond behind her against the wall of the fake fences and stuff. And they go around behind her with the camera is like filming her, but behind her is the tea house. And they overlaid my tea house. It's identical. Wow. Absolutely identical. I have a film somewhere in the pile of films,

and everybody's dead silent. And these guys that are on my side jumped up on the tables and started crumping up their papers that they were supposed to evaluate me on, and they're throwing them at the guys in suits and everything. Well, I get an email from the folks at the studio that the guy can.

came in four days in a row and went over the films, frame by frame by frame, could find no trick. Had to admit that it was probably real and walked away. Didn't want to talk about it after that. No, of course not. Probably not. He didn't expect to be. I asked the guy in the studio, did he resign his position? No.

But he'll probably never be on the TV in our studio again. Oh, my goodness. So, you know, it's, it's, but that's what suddenly I'm discovered by Japan. And so they invented this whole thing of looking for missing people. Yeah. And I went ahead and said, sure, I'd be glad to try it. I don't know. Is that, is that how you see, like, what remote, do you hope that more people know about this?

So you hope that everyone knows about this? I want everybody to know that it's real and it works. Yeah. And that's why I will not do it beyond the original protocol. It's got to be absolutely double-blind or I won't do it. And I stopped, in fact, I stopped once doing it for Time Magazine. Guy came in from Time Magazine. He wanted to interview me first.

They didn't want to see a remote viewing. And I said, fine. The interview went fine. In fact, it was a good interview. And then I told him when I talked to him on the phone, it has to be a target you don't know anything about. Somebody else has to invent a target. Put it in a double wrapped of pick envelope that you can't see through

and bring it with you. And he did. He had his senior editor put the target together. So we got this double packed envelope sitting in. on the table. It's got no markings on it at all. And that was my target. And so I started doing the target and started out in a hotel with a party, a bunch of people in a bar meeting in a bar, and then they snuck out a side door and they all got into these black limos and took off. And it became, for some reason, a race between them and some guys on motorcycles. And then there's

this crash. And as soon as I saw the crash in my head, I went, I can't. I can't. I can't do anymore because I know what the target is. So I said to the guy, we have to stop. I know what the target is. Why? Nobody knows. It's in a double-wrapped opaque envelope. I said, yes, but I know.

I know from the remote viewing what the target is. It's the death of Princess die. And he says, but we don't know that. Keep going. And I said, no. It's not going to happen. And we got in a huge argument, and he ripped the envelope open,

and all these articles fell out on the death of princes die. Now, I won't tell you the write-up he gave me. He tore me up. Now, I could have kept going and been the finest remote viewer to ever walk the earth with my detail. But ethically and morally, that's not right. You have to stop. If you know what the target is, you have to stop.

because you're violating and broken because the target has to be made aware you've been made aware of the target so so now it's so now it's not remote viewing anymore what you remember that you read saw conjectured somebody else told you overlays and it's yeah it's one overlay after the other it's of no value and and and and people don't understand that and and and their hint I've had so many emails from people saying you can't do a completely blind target you have to know something you have to know what's a male or a 35 year old female or something no you don't know anything that's the whole point they want the psychic information the stuff that just pops in your head that's what people want because that's the value of it if you do it any other way Yeah, you're going to be right. You'll be the best psychic to walk the planet. But it's not true.

None of the information will be true. You got to question all of it, you know? Do you believe, like, I already think I know my answer to this, but do you believe the government's not using this right now? Like, in this very instance, there is no program. Do you believe that? Well, I can show you a proposal I wrote. when they decided to cancel the program out.

And I got it to the right people, and it was all denied. It's possible. But here's the problem. If they did that, they've cut the science out completely. Okay? Because the best people in the science arena were not asked to be part of it. The people who actually know what remote viewing is and how it works. They were never asked, never told, and they never asked or told anybody else.

So they're working with something that's not operating at its fullest potential, or it's all screwed up, and they don't know what the right protocol is. Whatever, it's a mistake. It should never have happened, if that's true. And I think there are some that tried and it failed, because they don't understand it. I do know there are some countries that tried it, and I know the people who tried it,

and they fell flat on their face because they don't even know the protocol. There's one guy who calls me every now and then, trying to get me to come to work for him. But he's a foreign. He's a representative of a foreign country. I tell him every time he got to go, go ask the State Department.

If they say I can work for you, I'll be glad to come and work for you. But unless I get the permission to the State Department, it ain't going to happen. Otherwise, you're almost a spy for them. And I tell him all the time. And it's like he doesn't know I know who he is. I know where he's coming from.

And I tell him every time, and he just goes, maybe next time you'll hang up. It's crazy. And then there are other people to get in the way. If I get some information that I think somebody should hear, and it could be about a vulnerability, or it could be about something that's going to happen, it could be anything.

But if it pops into my head and I think it's valid, I'll give it to the people I think should have it. It might be, I don't know, it could be the Office of the Naval Intelligence. It could be the Office of the NRO, the National Reconnaissance Office. It could be anything. The problem with that is, if you do that and the information's real, you get a visit from the FBI. Because the FBI wants to know two things. One is, where did it come from?

and secondly, we're in charge of all domestic information, and it should come to us, and we'll see whoever should have it, gets it. I don't believe that for a second. And so my response is to get off my porch. They have trouble with that. Fair enough. But, you know, it's like I do what I can when I can. if I can, I want to.

So I don't think anybody else is trying to do it, but if they are, they've got black eyes and everything else from it. Probably beat them up. I've trained probably somewhere in the neighborhood of, I don't know, it's hard to say, a couple hundred people maybe. I don't for a second think they're going to go out there and become world-class remote viewers. But in all the classes at the very end of class, one of the questions I asked is if you honestly feel like you've remote-fewed, raise your hand.

I only had one person in all those classes that said I did not remote view. And I knew why, because they came in to collect information for some article they were writing. Okay. They were more interested in that. And that's okay. I don't care. But I think people go away with the idea they're going to be remote viewers. Because they can.

And they've demonstrated some ability in our classrooms. The problem is that's not good enough. They want to be even better. And then I get phone calls from people who are upset. because I taught them some things, but they're not getting any better, and I say, well, how many things, how many targets have you done for practice?

Silence. You know, how much effort have you put into this since you left the class? Silence. And what, and so my next question to them is, if this had been bowling and I taught you how to bowl, how long do you think it would be till you bowl three perfect games in a row

well that probably never would happen I'd say okay that's kind of like where remote viewing is you can have fun with it but you may not want to do it seriously and that's just a response I give people I think it's an honest response if they really want to do it

then they'll practice and they'll do it other things to try to learn it better or learn it. You know, and then there are some, you know, I don't want you to think there aren't anybody. There is people out there who have got together and they're on the internet and they have one person that makes a target like every day. And they get at 8 the morning and at 9 o'clock at night, he dumps the actual target on the internet so they can see how good or how bad they did.

And so there are some people out there practicing it, and they're doing pretty good with it. As long as they understand, it's about small bits and pieces of something. Poking the holes through the paper. Yeah. It's not about the whole thing. It's like Lawrence Little bit more laboratories with the T-shaped building. The T-shaped building is exactly right. Nothing else in my drawing is.

but anybody who looks at the drawing goes oh that's the Westgate, the Lawrence of Memorial Laboratories. Now why do they do that? Because they remember it that way. So maybe what remote viewing is is somebody else's memory. Memory can be a little hazy.

Yeah, right. Sometimes I'd look at myself and I say, why am I so good at it? And it may simply be the way I was brought up. All of my background feeds into it. And then my artistic ability knows how to fill in the corners and things that aren't there. Like a perfect storm. Yeah.

It just comes together in my head. I don't know the answer to that. I don't think I'll ever know the answer to that. And after a lot of years, I'm retired from it. So I'll still look for a missing child. I'll do that in a heartbeat. Is that the only sessions you do nowadays? Yeah.

I just don't. Yeah. Don't do it anymore. I'm tired. Fair enough. Let me know if you need to take a minute. Oh, sure. I'd love to talk about this one session, the one about the planetary.

When you guys were looking into planetary things, you had ego with planet. Jupiter who saw the rings around Jupiter or the ring around Jupiter. But then you had a really interesting session. I didn't know this was actually you until recently. But this is, it's gone a little bit even viral online. People have really looked into this session because they found it really interesting. But you did a session and the target was blind and the target was Mars a million years ago. Yeah.

And this was unbeknownst to you, blind. mind, there's no way you could have known. Yeah. Can you walk us through this? Sure. You need to know the reason why it occurred at the Monroe Institute first. I had had spontaneous out of bodies after my near death, my first near death experience. It would just happen spontaneously.

And they heard about this. So they being the military. So DOD, Department of Defense. decided that I should learn to control them. To see it, comparatively speaking, they were better for intel than remote feeling. So they found the guy who is best at it, and that was Robert Monroe at the Monroe Institute.

So they made a deal with them. I would work with him in the lab on long weekends, and he would teach me to control my auto bodies, so that comparison could be made. So for almost 12 months anyway, 14 months, I think, I would go on Thursday night to the Monroe Institute. And on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I would work with him in the lab all day.

And then on Monday morning at 4 a.m., I drive back to me to do the remote viewing because I was the only remote viewer left. So I'm doing remote viewing, and I'm doing this in the lab with Robert Monroe. And we were working very hard. hard in his lab for me to control the out of bodies, which we eventually succeeded in doing. Now, in the middle of that, DOD sends some people to the lab. At least that's the word I got.

I'm in the black box sleeping to recover from working all day. We would work 15-hour days a lab. So I'm taking a nap. He woke me up and he said, I have some people here from DOD. They've given me a target. It's in an envelope. It's in my shirt pocket. And I have a list of GPS coordinates. My first assumption is GPS, it's normal target. So he gets me the first target. And it was a pyramid, really huge pyramid. In comparison to the big pyramid in Egypt, you could put three of them inside this puppy in it. And it's got big rooms in it, which construction-wise, they must know something we don't know because a pyramidal shape is very difficult to build inside, outside of a casino in Las Vegas.

Anyway, so I'm reporting on that. I said apparently it's, you know, it's got some kind of, chambers that people are trying to survive in by being put in an altered state and stored like in case they can exist long enough for somebody to find them, hibernation chambers of some kind. And I'm describing some other things. I can't remember now. But anyway, so we go to each target.

And at some point, I said, I think it was right after the big pyramid, I said, is this a new discovery? This must be a new discovery because it was so big. And, you know, how did they find this? It's so huge. And Bob says, I'm not interested in how they found it. I just want to know more about it. So he keeps talking to me about this stuff.

So we go through six of the targets. I did as good of remote viewing as I've done on anything. And in the, uh, next to the last target, I said something about the sun look funny. And he said, I'm not interested in the sun. I'm interested in the GPS location. I just gave you. Well, I'm assuming this is all earthbound stuff because that's the only place I've ever used GPS.

And, uh, I couldn't do the seventh target because I was exhausted by then. so he says come on out and in the very end i was talking about oh he said where does this stuff come from and i said they're human people they're like us identical to us only they're much bigger 10 feet tall 12 feet tall that kind of thing and i drew a person next to a bigger person and I did some other drawings. I can't remember. But anyway, I came out and I said, what is this target anyway?

Because I said, I'm like getting, I'm in the past somewhere, and I'm seeing some people, and they're like us, but much different. And he says, I don't know where this is. And he was, he was. surprised. I was surprised. I don't know where this is. So one of the people said, it's in the envelope. Oh, the envelope of my pocket. So he had it in his shirt pocket folded over. So he opened it. He didn't

open it. He handed it to me. And I ripped the end off and pulled out a sheet of paper. And it said, Mars, one million BC, which is like, now, I got to tell you, I hate, I hate these targets. they're like UFO targets. I don't like UFO targets because how am I going to know whether I got something valid or invented it? You can't tell unless you have some form of feedback. Now, I get feedback in different ways. So I have done some UFO targets, but I've gotten feedback from people I respect who've told me that's really. really, really good stuff.

I had my own UFO experience in the Bahamas. I don't know if I wrote about that. I've never heard about this. I wrote about it in one of the books. I and a guy named Roberts, Steve Roberts, we worked with partners. I was stationed. My first assignment was on O'Lutheran in the Bahamas.

Bahama government was going into Pennsylvania. from Britain and didn't want our help. So we were assigned to a downrange tracking center from Cape Canaveral as air and space technology guys. And there were only, I think, eight of us in the group. So our cover was air and space technology. And I can't talk about the other part. but while we were there, we would get a couple days off every now and then.

And so Steve and I got the weekend off, and we watched a double feature in the outdoor theater. They had a great theater there. They flew the latest movies in from the States. It was great. And you could raise your hand and go nurse, and this little girl in white would run down the island take you order for a drink. So that's what we were doing. And we went to the bar after the movie, had a couple beers,

and then we headed for our quarters because the next morning we were going to go snorkeling. And instead of walking the mile down the road, we cut across the sand dunes behind the tracking station because it was a shortcut. So we're halfway across the sand dunes. And the whole place lit up like high noon. And, of course, you look up to see. where the lights coming from, and we're standing in this cone of light coming out of rotating disc.

It's slowly rotating. You could see panel lines on it, individual lights and stuff, and this cone of light being projected down. And then the light winked off, and before we could adjust our eyes, disappeared. While I was there, my sense was it sped away. and afterthought, thinking about it, it was so quick they could have just folded out of time space. I don't know. I have no idea.

All I know is I was in the light was Steve Robert. Did you end up in a little viewing that target? Did you end up trying to find out what that was? I can't do it because I know the target. Right. Okay. So there's two front loaded on that. Yeah.

Okay. So we went back to the bar. had about five more beers and made a deal with each other. We would never speak of it because we liked the Lutra. Everybody else was being block allocated to Vietnam. Lutra a lot. I was the only one that extended six months there. So we go down to our quarters.

Seven in the morning I woke up. I was not feeling good at all. I was, I felt like I had the flu. and so I walked down to his apartment and I wanted to find out if he was okay and this door was open and I knocked on the guy, the door across the hall from him

and I asked the guy there. I said, do you know what happened to Steve? He's not here. And he said, oh, they took him out of here at 4 o'clock. He was sick as a dog. They flew him to Homestead Air Force Base to the hospital there in Homestead. Oh, my God.

You know, I'm not feeling well either. So I went over to the Navy guys and reported on sick call. So I'm sitting in there and the guy's asking me what happened and I start telling him this story. And he stops when I said this circular thing. He stops and he says, tears up the paperwork, drops into trash can and says, don't ever bring that up again. But I think you have possibly gotten some radiation. boys. So he gave me iodide pills. I had to take him for like two weeks. It made me feel better. So I went over to the tracking station and I said, did you guys pick anything up between this hour

and this hour? Now they've got telemetries. They got everything there. The whole system was whited out for that entire period. Just snow white on all their screens. Everything was whited out. So I'm thinking, oh, man, who else could have gotten something? And everything that I could think of. Air traffic control or... It's all jammed. And so I waited and Steve Roberts comes back eventually from Homestead. And so I visited him and I said, Steve, tell me what you remember about that night.

He says, what do you mean? I said, you were in the hospital for it, you know. Can you remember what happened? happen. He said, yeah, I got burned. And I said, yeah, you were burned pretty badly, I understand. And he opened his shirt up. And the design on his shirt was burned into his chest. That's how badly he got burned now. The problem is, Steve never got in the water, never went to the beach. So he's white as I am now. I was the diver, so I logged thousands of hours in the water, so I was really dark. And that happened to help me in that regard. But what he could remember was taking the top off a radiator, a hot radiator on a red truck.

And I said, what are you talking about? He said, the red truck. I took the top off the radiator and it sprayed me with hot water. and that's how I got my burns. So I said, tell me something, Steve. How did you get to the red truck? I can't remember. Can you remember the movies you saw?

What movies? How about the bar? What bar? Couldn't remember anything. Red truck. That's all you could remember. I said, Steve, there's no red trucks on the base. They're all Navy trucks.

They're all baby blue or white or whatever. and he said, oh, this is a red truck. That's all he can remember. He couldn't remember after or before. You think it had something to do with them flying him out? I don't know. I have no idea. Now, I introduced my wife to him.

He came on vacation to the area north of here, Massanutton. He went there on vacation. And so I drove up there with my wife and introduced him at his wife and all that. and it's a red truck. To this day. To this day, it's a red truck. Now, one of the things I'll tell you, I remember,

this was like an eight-second event. And I kept going over and over and over it in my mind. When we noticed the light, I was standing right next to a small palm tree. It was like a piece of coconut stuck in the ground as a tree was growing as maybe high as my knees. when it shot off or disappeared or whatever, the palm tree was over here. That I remember.

Now, why? Yeah, how do you explain that? Did we walk through some kind of a time shift or something? My watch was the same time. It was always right. So there's no way to check that. When I talked to how put off about it, he definitely said, we want Joe in this group.

So I don't know. You guys did you guys maybe switch places or something? I don't know. The whole thing is like a mystery to me because I remember everything in detail and Steve remembers a red truck. So there might be some type of time dilation or some type of like event that happened that you had no control over? Now I talked to a guy. In fact, I get invited to us. house down in the Florida Keys later. And my wife and I went down there. My wife at the time

was my second wife. We drove down and met him. And he flew back and forth from Fort Lauderdale to Bimony once a week. He'd fly to Bimini and fly back. So he did that for years, like two and a half years. So his plane, he knew exactly, is a twin engine. He knew exactly the amount of fuel he needed to go from there to there. He knew exactly how much time it took to go from there to there. And this one time he was coming back from Bimini

and he said he flew into a weird cloud. And it was weird because on the tips of his wings, it was starting encroach on the tip of his wings and his wings were disappearing. And it made him nervous. And then suddenly right in front

of him, this bright light opened up in this huge object started right at his plane and he put his plane into a nose dive and it went over him and he cut around to the left and all he could see was this funny cloud again so he dropped to the ground and flew the rest of the way to fort lauderdale 10 minutes later fort lauderdale got him on the radio and said identify yourself identify yourself and so he identified himself and that was no surprise to him, but when he landed, he was two hours early. Early.

Early. And he still had a full gas load. Wow. Yeah. That's what he told me. He said, I said, well, what was this? He said, I have no idea what it was. But I don't fly out of Fort Lauderdale anymore.

I fly out of Miami. That's like some Bermuda Triangle. Yeah, right. That's weird stuff. and he's been written up at a couple books. And to this day, he says, I'll have a clue what happened. But boy, it's scary when it does. Wow, it's fascinating.

Yeah. I think it's an entry point or an exit point. Yeah, some type of, you know, portal maybe. Is it the only way, the only way somebody could come from another star to here would be almost instantaneously. otherwise it wouldn't be worth it. Yeah, I agree. Even if they started in a faster than light flight, somebody with a newer development would pass them before they ever got there.

So, I mean, it would be ridiculous. It has to be instantaneous. So we don't understand that. It's got to be intradimensional or something. I mean, you have to be manipulating, you know, the fabric of space time. Right. With an energy that is beyond comprehension. Right, exactly.

So, you know, I'm not sure I buy UFOs from another star. I think everything is local and they may be interdimensional. Interdimensional. Yeah, but they're local and they know about us and they do things to make us think differently. Right. And so in some regard, I and I in Jacques Valle think similarly than other people. When people say alien to me, my first thought is we're aliens. Right.

We're the aliens here. And others have long occupied this planet long before us. Yeah, there's no need to look out into the universe. when you can look right here. When you can look in your backyard. I mean, we don't know what's at the bottom of the ocean. So how do we, you know. And the problem, the real problem is they can enter water and leave water and not make a splash.

We've seen that. They're known to be flying around and manufactured objects. So these things you're calling UFOs don't even look like a UFO. It looks like a peanut or something. But they're, they're. obviously moving in their own field and they're manufactured if they're manufactured it's happening somewhere close you know maybe it's on a mar or maybe it's on a moon of Saturn or something who knows so if we get back to like this

Mars thing which which I you know when reading it you're like this is this is incredible that you didn't know anything and that the coordinates were for Mars and that you're talking about pyramids. I believe you mentioned, well, the sun looking weird, even the sky looking weird, skyline. Yeah. And canals like that, there was some, there was a definite civilization that was there. Yeah.

That was there. Mm-hmm. And that they were using these shelters or these places as shelters or for like hibernation to hide from something. And then towards the end of this, you, you had mentioned that there were these, that there were these people. And then I think Bob asked you to interact with them. Yeah. Interact with. And so during this remote viewing session, you were able to seemingly interact. Well, what I think my sense of it was that they had some kind of a technology where you could interrogate it

and it would give you answers. It would tell you why they're not existing anymore. That you came too late, that kind of thing. I was getting some kind of information in a way that didn't feel like it was coming from people. It felt like it was coming from a source that they had engineered in some way. So my sense of it was that none of them existed, that they were just like a hologram of some kind, imprinted on my mind. And so that's when I said. started getting really weird about it, you know.

Yeah. This is a weird target. That was when, that was when, um, you, you described, uh, you said like a big metal boat or something. There was a ship involved. Yeah. And that they were waiting on this other party, this search party. Right.

That went out. That went out. That, yeah, that they were hopefully waiting on and then eventually made it to a place. When I, when I found out the target was Mars. I thought about it a long time and I thought I have to get the pictures I have to see whether or not what I described is real or not real.

So somebody told me, I remember that night somebody said the targets came from JPL or something. Jet Propulsion Laboratory and I said, no, these were an interest to the government. Maybe J.P.

gave them pictures. I don't know. But I said, next time I'm in California, I'm going to JPL and get my own copies of the pictures. That's the kind of guy I am. Of the coordinates. Yeah. And my feeling was, hey, my taxes take these pictures. So they're going to give them to me or explain why not. So I had the actual card, the coordinates were written on.

So I drove over to JPL and they went in the room. where they have all the photographs and stuff. And I said, he said, how can I help you the guy at the desk? I said, I'm looking for pictures of these coordinates. And I want the original, I want copies of the original negatives. And he just looked at the card. And he said, oh, that's the old city on Mars. And he turned around and pull a drawer up and gave me a packet.

That's how hard it was. Get out of here. Yeah. I'd give you a copy of the pictures before you leave. Really? Yeah. I would love that. That's amazing. Oh, my goodness.

Piece of cake. Incredible. And I actually saw what I had described. It was like, wow. That's incredible. It's very cool. Now, there's one picture there. I got to tell you, it bothers me a lot.

And the reason why it's an impact crater. And there's shadow lines around the impact crater. And I asked the guy at JPL, I said, how high do you think the walls are in that impact crater? And he said probably around 2,500 to 3,000 feet. And I said, wow, you know, well, there's something on the edge of the impact crater couldn't be there then. Because if the impact had actually occurred after it, it would have blown it out of the box. The shadow around the impact crater is very small.

And he can look at it and know the anguish. of the picture taken and know that it's between 2,500 and 3,000 feet tall. So they've obviously done some analysis of the pictures. The shadow on this thing on the edge is two and a half inches. It runs off the negative. So I said, so how tall is that? And he looked at me and he said, that's really tall. And I said, okay, what is it?

and he said i don't know something probably grew there okay makes sense that's the best answer they can give you right now he grew it it's organic no way incredible and i'll show you that picture it's like oh wow you know fascinating people who say it's a natural thing not possible those i got some things downstairs i want to give you I want to give you the pictures, the Mars pictures, and there's a couple other things, and I want to give you a book. Great. That's a little more question. Sure.

It's just, and you kind of alluded to it just there is, do you think that the ability to remote you is within everybody? And do you think it's maybe like having a musical ability where some people are just a little more gifted? And maybe it is because of the way they're grown up, the people around them, their life's certain sense. nor do you think it's like really some people who just have. Or some people are like Beethoven and then others can like learn to play the xylophone. Yeah, it's like that. And it's like it's kind of like you have someone who is a natural with, let's say, a piano. And ever since their hands hit the keys, they've wanted to play the piano.

It's this burning desire to get better and better. and better. And they have this almost automatic ability to do the changeover from something they heard into a note against someone who's forced to take the lessons and then they practice it for four years as a kid in school and they play for the school band or whatever, the presentations at the school, and as soon as they graduate, that's it, never going to touch the piano again, you know. And that's their kind of their goal from the outset is get away from that damn piano thing but there is there there are people who like no matter how much you practice you're never going to make it to the NBA right do you know what I mean yeah yeah even if you are passionate about it you want to do

and what's funny about that yeah is is I'll do I'll do a series of targets like when I was in the project at fort mead I would do a series on a target or something and my body would say you're batting like 750 right now and anywhere else on the planet you know we'd be paying you eight times what you're getting and we're getting you for free but that would be an honest assessment yeah and and so people look at the 750 batter and compare it to the 375 batter in a baseball game and it's like on that remote viewing stuff yeah I want to watch the guy hitting the baseball. Yeah.

It's that thing. It's people's interest and what people believe. We have actually had hardcore, well-known, reputable scientists. Look us right in the eye and say, even if it was true, I refuse to believe it. Ouch. All right. I think that about wraps it up. Thanks so much, Joe.

This has been phenomenal. You're great. Not a problem. Thank you.