AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - The Terrible Truth About the Visitors - Whitley Strieber | ep. 96

Episode Date: July 24, 2026

Create Incredible Visuals with Higgsfield Cinema Studio: https://higgsfield.ai/ai-video?utm_source=youtube_s&utm_medium=area52investigations&utm_campaign=general&utm_content=in_8a8beLIVE PODCAST TICKETS: https://itsprobablynothing.com/AREA 52 Shop: https://www.area52.shopPatreon Exclusive Content: https://www.patreon.com/Area52investigationsJoin The Area52 Discord: https://discord.gg/area52 Whitley Strieber returns for a deep, unfiltered conversation about the true nature of Non-Human Intelligence, the soul, and what disclosure might actually mean for humanity.In this episode we cover:Why Whitley believes killing is “only an incident” compared to what NHI can do to the soul.The possibility that Earth is both a cosmic school and a potential prison.The implant in his ear and how it functions as a living research tool.His vivid 1983 time-slip experience near Nikola Tesla’s old lab.Multiple species, technological “donations,” underwater bases, and the danger of treating them as purely demonic or purely benevolent.The unanswered question that still haunts him from the 1985 Communion nightWhy the Aztec collapse is the perfect warning for our current momentSolar threats, 2027, and the “door of the mind” that can never be closedWhitley’s new edition of Transformation 2026 is out now.Find his work and Dreamland podcast at https://unknowncountry.com/

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19 plus Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Concern about your gambling or that of someone close to you. Call 16-531-2600 or visit Connexontera.ca. I have been running like hell for a long time, and the world is catching up with me. They're all going to be running like hell, too. Believe me. Do you think the possibility of this planet being like some type of cosmic prison is at all real? That is something I never can't quite put out in my mind.

Some parts of this are really extraordinary and exciting, but other parts of it are going to be hard to deal with. We will discover that slowly over time. Do you think that the NHI has the potential to, like, kill you over this? Oh, I think it's worse. Worse than that. Oh, yeah. I think killing is only an incident.

They're tempting us farther and farther. But at the same time, there are predators who sort of work like that, who move very, very slowly until suddenly everything changes. The mouse ends up in the jaws of the snake. Always cut the cards when you're not sure who you're playing poker with. And I'm not sure who we're playing poker with.

In 1990, when I was almost 10 years old, my mom was driving back home from a late-night grocery trip back to my grandma's house where we all lived together. And when we turned onto the street, we lived on at the beginning of the block, There was a round saucer spinning many different colors, very bright, about 100 feet above the church on that corner.

All of a sudden, we all were sitting at my grandma's table, like paper grocery bags placed on the table. And my grandma walked into the kitchen and said, what's wrong? Why don't the groceries put away? Suddenly we realized we didn't remember the last 55 minutes, and we all just seemed like, you know, confused. and we were crying, and my brother said a very colorful round the UFO was spinning around, and they don't remember anything until now. Then my grandma said, oh, my God, nothing you know. She went to the picture drawer, a null picture drawer, and pulled out a paper that had a scrawling of a metal table

with a female laying on it and a couple grays around her. And she said, did you see any of these beans? Willie Streber, welcome back. It's good to be back. Well, it's good to have you back, sir. I'm glad that you were able to make the trip out. And I know that we'll also be seeing each other, actually, quite frequently in the next few months. We got contact in the desert you'll be at.

But then also I'll be featuring you alongside myself and some other guests on the It's Probably Nothing tour. Right. As we stop off in San Francisco. Yeah. We'll be there as well. So you won't be seeing the last of me today. Yeah, and I'm going to be at the Lillydale Assembly on July the 11th. That's the assembly of the Spiritualist Church of America up near Lake Erie in upstate New York,

which is a charming place. I love it. And I'll be there just with a panel with Travis Walton. And in the fall, I'm going to be doing a course. on, on, uh, on, uh, the, the abduction experience and how to kind of, how to, how to, how to live with this for ubiquity university. And I'm going to be at the, uh, in West, uh, in West, uh, in West Virginia, at the Edgar Case Institute. So I'm going to be doing a lot, too. Very busy man. Yeah. Well, that's good. Busy is good.

Idle hands of the devil's play toy, they say. Hmm. I have to remember that. Yeah, it's really good to have you back. And, you know, last time we had this conversation, obviously a great reaction from the audience. They were very compelled by not only your stories, but like the book you put out at the time, which was a fourth mind. Right. You know, because of its relationship to the, I'd made a video about this, but the molecular biologist.

Right. That had sort of dissected one of these beings and how that really caused. coincided quite neatly with your experience of the physicality of the beings. That's right. And it was, you know, I've had numerous biologists. Look at this at this point. And it's a mixed bag in terms of some of them say, no, he didn't, he couldn't be describing this correctly because it's not, this is not what I understand of biology.

Others have said, this is possible. And so, but I think he. probably was doing his best to remember something he actually did work on. And I have not been able to contact him for obvious reasons. I mean, we all know that they are very actively engaged on the inside in getting after people who break their security agreements. It's a serious business. So I can understand why, you know, it hasn't shown up in my life. The only follow-up that I had to that was I had someone call me on this 1-800 number that we have that we feature the beginning of the episodes. And because this gentleman had mentioned, I think, Battel.

Betel Memorial Institute. Exactly, was where they were housing these, you know, biological experiments that they were doing in these autopsies. And so someone reached out and said, I'm a scientist, a molecular biologist that worked at Betel for a small period of time during my training for the Navy. And he said that at one point we were joking with each other because we had to sign NDAs and this and that and we were joking with each other among the other scientists about, oh, what if we see aliens? And he said we made a pact that day, that if ever we did end up working with anything non-human, that we would send a text to each other and say, sorry wrong number. And so fast forward, I think two or three years down the line, they had not communicated after that. There was no communication actively between these people because, you know, they get posted to different areas and different jobs.

And sure enough, he received a text out of the blue by one of these people who said, yeah, that told him, yeah, sorry, wrong number. Now, here's a question. I wonder why they even thought about that. this at the beginning when they were together. What was it at Batel that made them even think about that? Because normally it's not something you would just think about. Yeah, they probably had to have heard some type of water cooler rumor. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, Dr. Robert Sauerbacher, the metallurgist who died, oddly enough, the day I sent him the first written material that became the book Communion, went to Dr. Sauerbacher after we had a conversation on the phone. He died

that same day, apparently. And I never got the material back. But he told me that he worked at Battelle. And I think that's even in his, if his Wikipedia entry is still accurate, which is an open question nowadays, I think it still may be in his Wikipedia entry. So you got, by biology, you got metallurgy. We need to go to Battelle. We need to see what's going on there. Yeah, Batel, Mitre, all of these corporations seem to be the key to this. Because, well, you know, Battel has stated publicly that they have not done any of this. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, as one does when you are doing these things. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, you don't publicly state that you are doing them for obvious reasons. So what do you make of this? Because right now we're getting into it seems to be this transition, this shift into this new paradigm where, you know, obviously there are a lot of people who are going to be a little frustrated or reluctant in acknowledging some of the disclosure efforts that have been put forth by the United States government due to fuzzy imagery and sort of the lack of historic transparency.

But what do you make of this movement that seems to be hitting the mainstream? You know, that seems to be really moving the needle in terms of at least, at the very least, people's interest and curiosity versus what happened to you back in 1985 and where we are now. How does that affect you? How do you see the world right now? I have been running like hell for a long time and the world is catching off with me. They're all going to be running like hell too. Believe me. because, you know, this, this, some parts of this are really extraordinary and exciting, but other parts of it are going to be hard to deal with, really hard to deal with. And we will discover that slowly over time, I think, although there's always the possibility that it could just come bursting into our lives without one. warning. And that's the part that worries me the most because when I look at the whole spectrum of

the close encounter experience, most of the cases people just sort of, it came into their lives unexpectedly. A few cases, they've sort of been consciously aware of this since they were kids, but mostly it starts very abruptly when I call it the moon of activation, when they see a UFO and the next thing they know they're in it or they have missing time and they become totally obsessed with this. And, you know, Richard Dreyfus character in close encounters. Yeah, close encounters. Spielberg got that. He got that total obsession that happens when you come up against an anomaly like this. You can't let it go. And people don't let it go. They can't. And eventually it's going to turn out the entire world's not going to be able to let it go.

And right now there's something like 700 million views of the new government's disclosure website. And most of the stuff on it is pretty old hat so far. Yeah, I'd agree. Right. But look at the number of views that immense level of interest. It's extraordinary. Yeah. if that doesn't at least, you know, inspire or motivate some of the government to move even faster, other world governments.

You know, now we're seeing Japan come into the conversation as well recently. Possibly, yeah. Yeah, I feel like that's the healthiest course of action because so many of the criticism with the United States government is that why do they only land in the U.S.? Why is it only in the U.S., which we know it isn't. Right. But it would also be nice to have these other countries start opening up their. sort of classified files to this topic as well. Well, there are certain countries that have more than others.

In South America, Brazil undoubtedly has a great deal more than most countries. And that's important to open up because that's a really challenging experience down there. France, I know does, and at least I'm pretty sure it does that they've been collecting this information for years. and it sort of edges up to the surface every once in a while. And Italy probably does as well. I don't know about the UK. I know they must have, they've had some extraordinary cases there.

And undoubtedly they have some amazing files. But they're very, very quiet about it. Yeah, they classified a whole bunch in 20, 20, Was it 2017, I believe? Yeah, but it wasn't much. There wasn't much to what they did classify. No, it was sightings. Right.

That type of thing. But again, like a lot of the stuff that we're seeing now, we're seeing a lack of acknowledgement on what this stuff is. They're kind of just putting it out there and being like, we're not responsible for whatever you think it is. Right. And that seems like a cowardice type of approach. to it when you're like, hey, just get behind this thing. You know, you're saying UAP,

you know, why not, let's talk about the other stuff too. Let's talk about the elephants in the room. Let's talk about the Roswells, the Kexberg. Yeah. And also what has been, what kind of conclusions? Because there must have been and must still be a great deal of work being done on this. I know that there, general art action. Jackson who was involved in this, he was later, he was commandant of right Pat, and in 47, according to what he told me, he was directly involved in the, what happened when the debris and the bodies were brought to right field. It was as it was called then, under General Twining. He was in the air material command or worked in this, and they could have easily pulled in officers from other parts of the, of the command at the time because I'm sure that air material wasn't all that big and all of a sudden they had this major thing. So in any case, he told me in 1988 when I talked to him that they had a lot of pencils up meetings and that meant that he would go down. He was still even in retirement going down to write Pat from where he was to fill in the scientific group that was still working on.

with what they had discussed in these meetings. Wow. Now, that means that there's a lot that we'll never know because it was hidden by not being recorded. But the other problem is this. A lot of the records that were recorded, I think, have been offloaded into the private sector, and I can be fairly specific about that. Back in the early 90s, when I was living in upstate, well, it's downstate New York, New York to most New Yorkers, but 90 miles north of Manhattan, the town of Woodstock,

people began to complain that there were trucks going to the EG and G Rotron facility in Woodstock waking, keeping them awake all night. And apparently there were documents being moved in large quantities to that facility from goodness knows where. But wherever they were coming from, I would guess, were government facilities. EG and G&G Rotron is a private facility. And every document that went in there moved out of the freedom of information umbrella and was no longer accessible. And I think that if we are ever going to find any really substantive material about this,

we've got to get it from a private sector. Yeah, it's a tricky, a tricky line to walk. Well, Congress can do it. I mean, there can be legislation to do this. There can be, but what that also entails is a violation of, you know, people's personal intellectual property. And so, you know, you can't have one without the other if you say that the government is allowed to go into private corporations and take what they, deemed to be exotic material, you know, where is that line? Who decides where that line ends? And now suddenly, you know, some inventors out there inventing something completely on his own, but they

deem it to be exotic and take it away from him. Not saying that I'm totally against or for anything, but it does open a interesting can of worms. Cana worms. However, I will say this. I know inventors whose inventions have been taken that way. So that does happen. Definitely happens. What's one case that you can remember? Well, yeah, okay. It's a little dicey because it's, there's a case of a communication system that someone I knew invented. And his invention was classified. It wasn't taken from it in the sense of they didn't say, well, we're taking your invention and we're making it ourselves and you're not getting any money.

He's still getting money from it, but it's classified, and he can't, he can't do anything. Talk about it anymore. It's an exotic communication system. What does it do you know? Yes, I do. I'm guessing you don't want to share that? Well, let's put it this way. It's a really exotic.

And it involves instantaneous communications. Whoa. And it's not quantum communication. It's something else. And it's something that I don't think anybody is really very aware of. And he's a wonderful, sweet guy, and you wouldn't think he would ever be able to invent anything. But he's really brilliant under the surface.

Wow, that's really interesting. Yeah. Well, maybe they'll come a day will he be on the show. And others like him. I know a lot of people who are, you know, kind of half in the shadows and half out and would like to be all the way out of the shadows for sure. Do you have a lot of people come to you? I'm sure you do, but do you have a lot of people come to you from a sort of military industrial complex background or a private sort of government contracting or intelligence community background that comes to you with information that we have that you just can't, you know, verify, but that's pretty intense? Sometimes. I wouldn't say that happens to me every day. And I not really, don't really encourage it because the last thing I want to do is getting involved in situations where I know classified material, not because it's illegal for me to know that. I mean, if I, if it falls into my hands, it's perfectly legal for me to do, you know, it's not, there's no, nothing I, no, there's no law against it if it falls into your hands. You have to steal it. That and I don't do that. I mean, I'm close to. I'm close to. I'm close. I. I'm,

of that. But I don't like to know those things, especially if I'm not sure where they stand, which is often the case. I, you know, I'm not sure where given things stands. I don't know for sure whether or not it's classified. Or there are things that the visitors, NIH, want to keep secret too. And I've found out the hard way that, you know, they can get just as pissed off as the government if you've spilled their secrets. Yeah, you mentioned that to me on the car ride here, that there was an incident that you deemed was because of something that you let slip that you shouldn't have. That's right. That they didn't want you to share.

They being the visitors. That's correct. Only there's a difference with the government. You know when you're stepping over the line because you presumably have signed a nondisclosure agreement or you have a security clearance or something. with them, they assume you know you're supposed to keep it a secret. And then if you don't, they get pissed off, really pissed off. And that happened to me. And so, you know, they're not going to ask you to sign any kind of a security agreements.

But if you say something or do something that they don't, that they, that revealed something that they don't want revealed, then they think, well, he's stupid. He was inattentive. And, you know, the sky's the limit as far as scaring the hell out of you goes at that point. Do they stop at that? Yeah. They did in my case or I wouldn't be here anymore. Do you don't think that, do you think that the NHI has the potential to, like, kill you over this?

Oh, I think it's worse. Worse than that. Oh, yeah. I think killing is only an incident in what could happen. I think that they have fully expressed, whether it's technology or not, I don't know, and at least in the way we think of it, that enables them to control the conditions of the soul. And it is real. The soul is real.

And one of the great problems we have and one of our greatest weaknesses is most of our best minds, dismiss that as absolute nonsense when it is in fact as far as n h i is concerned the central issue it's what they're they care the most about it's why they're here and it is not a supernatural thing it is part of nature that we don't yet understand and can't yet detect but it's just just real as radio was in 1850, which we didn't understand there and couldn't detect, but it was still there. The soul is the same. It's not, I'm not saying the soul has anything to do with radio, but it's an energy that we cannot detect yet.

And part of the reason is, I think it's conscious energy. And it's going to be detectable when it wants to be. Do you think it's some type of fuel? Expand on that a little bit. Do you think that, because there is clearly a value. for them. If you look at all of the visitations and you try and piece together whatever we can with our meager little minds here, you get to the bottom very fast and you go, it's not resources like we know them.

It's not gold and platinum or oil. It isn't territory. It's not water. There's plenty of that out there. There's just freely floating around in space even. You wouldn't even have to fight us for it. Like, so when you get down to it, it doesn't leave you with many options. And one of those options that a lot of people get to in that, you know, if you look at the case of Bob Lazar, he had those haunting words where they call us containers.

And then containers of what. Yeah, well, that's what it's all about is what the containers contain. So what do they do with our souls, in your opinion? Why do they want to contain them or why do they even care that they're being contained or why are they containing them? Well, I think the best way to do to talk about this is there's first to say this. I have been told that if I were to violate certain, do certain things they don't like, and I'll be specific. One time, and I wasn't even thinking about this, I suddenly found myself in contact with them. in a very tangible way.

And the message was you must not commit suicide. If you do that, we will capture your soul and confine it forever. Forever. It was the scariest thing I ever heard in my life. And then they proceeded to demonstrate this by removing me from my body, and I ended up in this little white container that I could not get out of. in the non-physical. The only way out was to go back into my body.

And the thing that was weird was I wasn't even thinking about committing suicide. It's not something that's on my agenda ever. You know, maybe it has been when I was a teenager and got jilted by a girl, but, I mean, let's face it. Fortunately, I didn't take it that seriously. And there have been times, you know, when I was losing all my money in my home and everything, I felt like, you know, maybe Anne would have been.

be better off the insurance money, but I never thought of it deeply. But that was an example of what they can do. You know, I mean, presumably they could do that. They could confine a soul forever. And I think to myself, shouldn't more people understand this? Because if you live something in your life makes them want to do that after you've died, and they don't warn you beforehand, my God, what are we really doing here? You know, how do you live?

What it did to me was I looked at my moral life in a whole new way because I thought, this isn't theoretical, it's tangible, and what do I have to do? And I really can't answer that question because I think living a good moral life will help you not end up in that situation, but I can't prove that. It could be that that's not what it's about. Do you think the possibility of this planet being like some type of cosmic prison is at all real? That is something I never can quite put out of my mind. Is it a cosmic prison or is it a cosmic school or is it both? And it, you know, I've been told both. I had an absolutely that's I've gotten more, I wrote a book years ago called Transformation

and the new version of it, which is just out, Transformation 2026, talks about an event that happened in those days that I now understand very deeply. At the time, you know, I could describe it, but I couldn't, I didn't know what it was about. And it involved a journey to a university on another world. Now, was it a physical journey?

No, I couldn't have been. Because, you know, but it was either a journey up here or some kind of out-of-body journey or something, but it was very vivid and very detailed. I got a really detailed, you know, I might as well have gone physically because of the vivid, the detail with which I remember. remember it. But in this university, I was told that I could enter it and that it was a place that

was a school. It was a university of school. And it was very tumbled down. And I said to the little guy that was saying to me, yeah, you can go in. There was a door, an arched doorway, not far from where we were. I said, it looks like a total wreck. And he said, well, it's been a million years old and the scholars are no good at maintenance. And so I went toward it and suddenly two bigger beings, I didn't know of grayes. This happened in the 70s. I didn't know what they were, but these two big beings with big black eyes prevented me from going in and I was extremely disappointed. But I actually had entered the university. The university is this life. So this is a school on one hand,

but I think it might turn into a prison in the sense that if you die and you've screwed up your journey and you aren't able to ascend, you aren't able to graduate, you've got to do it again. And again, and again, and again, and maybe eventually someone,

maybe you eventually, you could fail completely. And then you never leave. I don't know. but that's failing completely doesn't interest me. I'm really interested in succeeding. Yeah, I want to live a moral life. And that's the only thing I can say. I don't know, as I said earlier, maybe that's not relevant.

But it's all I have to, you know, to work toward. Yeah, and that makes sense. I mean, it makes sense from a sort of higher beings, perspective if you are somehow seeding these planets and nurturing them to grow, because I assume if this is a school, there's probably a trillion other schools out there. I don't assume that we are alone in this. I think that would be, you know, you get to that, the enormity of this. There's a, there are a lot of estimates about how many planets there are in the universe. Stars are one thing, but there are more planets, many more than stars.

21-6 trillion trillion is one estimate I've heard. Now, those are words. Yeah. They don't compute in any way in number. And, well, there are more galaxies in this universe than there are grains of sand on Earth to give you an idea of the scale of it. The scale is unbelievably huge. That means that there are.

So there are probably so many living planets in this universe that essentially everything is true. Yeah. Everything's possible. Right. Pigs are flying somewhere. The exact. Pigs are flying somewhere and somewhere else. You and me are flying.

Yeah, that's right. I'd love to have levitation. That's so cool. One of the strangest parts of making this channel is trying to find footage of things that have allegedly happened, but conveniently no one thought to film. or if they did, it's grainy or out of focus. And it turns out Getty Images has a surprisingly limited selection of terrified man being escorted into a glowing spacecraft. So I've been using Higgsfield Cinema Studio.

What I like about Higgsfield is it's built around shots, not prompts. So you create one frame exactly how you want it, composition, mood, lighting, all that stuff, and then extend it into a cinematic shot. But what's even cooler is that I could take this studio, that I'm sitting in right now and you see this TV over here. That's a real TV. This is a real TV. But I could put whatever I want on that TV using Higgsfield.

So let's say I want to have a UFO on there. Or maybe even, I don't know, an alien trying to climb through the screen. How creepy is that? Well, that's just one of the many things that you can do with Higgsfield Cinema Studio. Check it out if you're curious. I left the link below. we use it in every one of our videos. So thank you so much to Higgsfield for sponsoring this video. Yeah. No, that is a, there's a wild thing to ponder, but even wilder yet is this idea that although there is an infinite number of planets and there are an infinite number of possibilities, but there is equally a possibility that there is an interaction here and that this also is part of the whole.

Right. You know, it's just difficult for, I guess, it's really hard to fathom anything that isn't physical for people. And once we start talking about non-physical, I always feel like there is a connection in sort of the streamlined way of thinking, the mainstream way of thinking that non-physical means not real. Yeah, exactly. And it's a big misconception because if anything, it's more real. most of reality is non-physical. We're not going to be able to understand our relationship with non-human intelligence unless we also understand something about the non-physical part of us.

Yeah. And it's not that it's non-physical. It's that it is at a different frequency from what we can detect of the body directly. Yeah. And, you know, I've been out of my body a few times. It's so frustrating because I have friends who can go out of their body anytime they want to. But I've always, when I've been out, I've been taken out. And I don't get to go out of them now, and I try all the time.

I really like to do it. But I finally decided that the grays seem to be the ones responsible for my going out of the body because they're always around when that happens. They must think that I'm too dangerous that I would play practical jokes and stuff. They don't like. And yeah, then that's probably true. I mean, I wouldn't deny it. Like, if I could go out of my body, I know how, and I've done this before to become visible when I'm out of my body.

I've done that a couple of occasions when, but it's all controlled. I mean, they took me out. They told me what to do. I did it. I came back. And, but I would love to go, like, to the White House or the Vatican or somewhere like that and become. physically visible, but also so that people could take pictures and stuff, but also insubstantial so they could like walk through the body. I think that would be so cool and so much fun.

Yeah, I mean, it does open a giant rabbit hole, you know, when you talk about that stuff, because you're like, you know, are these out-of-body experiences just other people having, are they ghosts to some people? Are they apparitions? Are they, or? You know, you hear about all the stuff. People have definitely seen me. Linda Moulton Howe saw me. And I didn't even try that. I mean, I ended up in her, in her bedroom in the middle of the night.

And she was really pissed off. And she called me, what is the matter? Where? blah, blah. You know, she was very upset about it. And I said, Linda, I'm so sorry. I had seen her. But not clearly.

I knew I'd seen a woman. And she was looking at me and really upset. But then when the call came, I thought, oh, good, would be Linda, of all people. And because we'd become friends. She was one of the first people to come to the cabin after the experience. I think she may have even, I believe it was before Communion was published. Because Stanton, I got in touch with Stanton Friedman, and he put me in touch with Robert Sauerbacher.

And I believe he also with Linda, a number of other people. Anyway, so we knew each other and we were friends. And then suddenly, you know, I end up in her bedroom. in the dead of the night in the non-physical state. But I, you know, that, I got used to it and I had, I enjoy it. I mean, I'm always, I'm looking forward to the next time, frankly. Do you think, I want to switch gears a little bit here because this is a kind of a question that has been coming up a lot during this discussion recently.

And it's the, the assumption that there is some type of, demonic aspect to what people are seeing. And I thought, who better to speak on this than someone who's had, you know, direct contact with whatever it is that other people claim to be demons. Does that hold any weight with you or are you dismissive? No, I'm not dismissive. But I am concerned about one thing. When we say demonic, we say supernatural, unreachable. to us. All we can do is pray. And I don't find that acceptable. I think that's an extremely dangerous position to take. That does not mean that I don't think they're dangerous. I think some of them are very dangerous. But I do believe that we do have the capability of controlling the situation

to some extent and maybe great. And part of that may actually be prayer. I don't know. But if we say it's supernatural, completely supernatural, then we are also saying we're helpless, and we must not say that. We must go into this more practically and say that this is often very dark and it might as well be demonic, but we are not disempowered by that,

because at some point they have vulnerable, abilities that go beyond, that are not supernatural, that are part of the world as we understand it. Otherwise, you know, we end up like the Aztecs. The Aztecs, when Cortez first arrived on their shores, they were confused. First, they thought he was Ketakotel, their God. And then when they figured out he wasn't Katsa Kodl, they had another problem. They couldn't understand that the horse and the man were not one creature, then they couldn't understand how cannons worked or what wheels were.

They were completely outclassed, and their whole culture collapsed. Their armies failed and their culture collapsed. The result was there were approximately 90 million people in Mesoamerica when Cortez arrived. a hundred years later, there were about nine million natives and native peoples, indigenous peoples in Mesoamerica, of whom the great majority were slaves. That is the danger.

The danger is that we will misunderstand what we are dealing with and fail to respond to it in a way that gives us agents. and we must not allow that to happen. That's why whenever someone says they're demons, they're really saying we give up. And I'm sorry, I'm not giving up. That's an interesting way to put it. I do see how people would jump to that conclusion

with limited knowledge, though, and that seems to be the trend when you look back in history. Yeah. Anything unexplainable was supernatural, was demonic, whether it's, you know, talking about gravity or, you know,

know. Well, yeah, I'm sure that if you'd turned on a radio in 1650, you would have been burned at the stake. Yeah. Media, I mean, there's something coming out with witch, you know, in witchcraft. And, you know, but the frontier of reality has been expanding almost as fast as our expanding knowledge of what the universe really is in terms of its size and its structure. and it's time to get to the point where we understand the things that look supernatural are actually part of reality that we can understand, that we can gain agency in, and otherwise I think this species is going to get into the same kind of trouble the Aztecs got into, but on a much more massive scale.

Do you think that they are in part, and this is perhaps pondering, a little bit expanding on the idea of the control system by Jacques Valet, but do you think that their apparitions, their interjections, or their impositions into our lives through sightings, through visitations, do you think that that is purposely to expand the frontier that you just mentioned of technology, of our perception of reality? Are they there? to just constantly push our perception in some way to help us grow? Okay. On the positive side, the simple answer is yes, because that's what's happening.

What's happening is we are responding to this on many different levels. It's changing our understanding of the supernatural, for one thing. It is challenging us technologically. And you can see in the in the, all of the stuff that's coming out in Congress, we're working hard to figure that out and to do that. Meanwhile, they are not coming in and pushing the door down and saying, okay, screw you. You'll never figure us out, get, get anything from us. We're taken over. They're not doing that.

They're tempting us farther and farther. but at the same time, there are predators who sort of work like that who move very, very slowly until suddenly everything changes and the mouse ends up in the jaws of the snake.

So I think we have to be very careful about this. We have to move ahead intelligently and not bring our superstitions or our confusions with us. We can't bring the past with us. We have to bring

what is new and what is best in us with us. And we're going to go down this path. And remember, Chris, we're talking about something that's not, it's not, you know, disclosure today and then some different things happen tomorrow. We're talking about the beginning of the rest of the human experience. This is a huge time in human life. The biggest time in history is right now. and a big part of it is the fact that we are coming,

NHI is coming into focus. That's critically important. And once they're in focus in our lives, it will never change. It will never be different. And they are definitely pulling us ahead. You know, they leave what people like, I believe, Hal Pudoff and Jim Likotsky referred to

as donations, you know, these technological bits and pieces that we pick up and craft and so forth, they think of them as donations. I might not have the scientists who said that correct, but some important people in this have said that. And if that's the case, then they're trying to get us to the point where we don't have the Aztec's reaction to them, where they don't colonize us culturally. In other words, they don't want to do this. They're looking for friends, not slaves. That's what it looks like to me, I hope. But at the same time, it's so complicated

because there's a side to this we were just referring to a few minutes ago. It's just dangerous as hell. There's no other way to put it. Do you think there's multiple species interacting with us currently that are not working together? All we have to do is go back a few minutes

to our discussion, brief discussion of the number of planets in this universe. Of course. And if the answer to that question is not yes, and in spades, I would be amazed. Right. I would be amazed. Of course there are. Yeah.

And believe me, they're going to be in conflict with each other. They're going to be in conflict. Of course. And they're going to be fighting over us. And they're going to be fighting over other things. And what happens to us is going to be a side effect of those fights. Because if you look at an atom, an atom has a positive, charge and negative charge and the electron field that holds it in balance plus minus and balance

that's brachminster fuller called that triad the building block of the universe but between the plus and the minus there's constant tension so you know conflict is essential without conflict there is nothing and that's what we don't understand the These ancient conflicts that must be present are part of the way the world is. They're fundamental to the nature of reality. So, you know, they're fighting each other, but they've probably been fighting each other for a long time. And they're probably going to be fighting each other for a much longer time. So what do you say to the people who are convinced beyond doubt that this presence is nothing but benevolent?

Because there are those. There are many. There are plenty of them. Yeah. And plenty more who wish are on the fence and wishing and grabbing for any sign that that might be true. You think that's just a hopeful? I think that we need to be grown-ups about this. And that means we need to see this in a very large and nuanced way because there's parts of it that are, yeah, that are obviously benevolent or there would be no donations going on.

There wouldn't be anyone trying to pull us ahead technologically to speed up our technological process, progress, without destroying our cultural integrity. You know, and that's what they're doing. On the other hand, you get some of these things that happened that we were talking about earlier. Chihuahuas in Brazil. Oh, the horror. Unbelievable. Horrors in Brazil. I mean, laser beams that sucked people's blood.

I mean, come on, that's not benevolent. That's just not nice at all. And there's plenty of people in this country. The abductees are beat up. I'm beat up. My wife was beat. We're all beat up. But, you know, most of us have a trajectory like I have.

If you'd asked me whether or not these beings were dangerous back in when I first started meeting them, I would say, yeah, very dangerous. Now I'm used to them. I live with them. They come into my life fairly frequently, sometimes non-physically, but once or twice a year also physically. And do I run and hide?

Do I try to fight them off? Not at all. Not anymore. But I would have once. I used to live in a house full of guns for that reason and alarm systems. And if you go to the old cabin, which still exists, the lights or the wonderful family owns it.

For years it was owned by people who didn't care. Now it's owned by people who do care and who are interested in it. And the floodlights I put in are still there and all the electronics are still there from the old days. Which is really cool. But it's a reminder of what I was like then. I was so scared, so scared. Nowadays, you know, when I go out to places, isolated places where I've seen them from time to time, like the Esselon Institute, what I want to do is be in a room where it's convenient for them to come because they come in off the ocean and they don't like to come too far off the ocean if they're going to be in the physical form. They want to be safe.

And they're very, they're very concerned about certain things. Are they coming from in the ocean? I think so, yeah. I used to not know, but if you, you know, Tim, Tim Galadette and, you know, the underwater stuff is apparently very important. And Rich Dolan has written a whole book about it, which is a wonderful book. Wonderful book. I interviewed him on Dreamland. I think you had him on here.

So we interviewed him at contact last year, but haven't had a chance to have him here. Yeah, you should, well, get him up here. I would love to. He's really a fun guy. He is. He's also brilliant. Anyway, I think underwater and underground are their primary locations here for obvious reasons. They can't fly around all the time.

And underwater is a place where we're not going to get to them very easily or underground. They used to come out from underground at the cabin all the time. That's where they come. That's where they would come from. In fact, when I'm there, now from time to time they come out the family's never seen them they've never and i wouldn't they've got little children and i'm not so sure i would be welcome there if they visitors showed up while the kids were there so i'm very careful about that yeah yeah be a frightening thing for most

people to see i think uh yeah even if you are studying it and used to it um there you know there's something really eldridge about these things that you can't quite put into words if you see them. It's extremely hard to be with them. Yeah. There's something so scary. And you know, they scared my animals, the cats. They scared them to two beans.

And I always, one night, and I've been thinking about this stuff a lot because when I was thinking about writing a new book, and I usually, I have this implant in my ear, and I communicate somehow through the implant. And usually when I finish a book with about three to six months later, ideas start coming, and I have a time at meditation at three o'clock in the morning, and the ideas will start pouring in, and I very quickly am able to organize this into the theme of a new book. And I had an idea for a book. I had the idea. It hadn't come in that way.

And nothing kept happening. And I kept thinking, well, I hope the implant isn't turned off. And it seemed to be still working. And I suddenly got from the implant came to life. And they wanted me to rewrite my book transformation that I already published. And I think, why? And then it comes out, it turns out, that all of this stuff

is more relevant now than it was then. And I've lost your question. Wait a minute. I'm talking too much. Well, I think we're both on a different tangent anyway, so that's all good. Okay, well, anyway, the book came along, and I realized that what started to happen is

I began to interact with it, and I was able to bring in all kinds of new information that I had, because the book in those days, books started, bestsellers started in California. And one of the critical things the publishers had to have was a good review in the Los Angeles Times. This is a different era entirely. And they weren't ready for communion.

No one expected that. It was slipped into the bookstores by the publisher without any prior warning. or anything. They were waiting for gunning for transformation, and transformation got the most fantastically bad review in the Los Angeles Times than you could possibly imagine. And when it briefly appeared on the bestseller list, they put it on their fiction bestseller list. And it was, it died. And so I thought to myself, well, I understand now what they're going, because what the book is about is when my family and I began to have contact along with a lot of our friends at the cabin. And I thought, the disclosure, this is about a year ago, the disclosure processes must be coming faster than I understood at the time.

Because, and as I wrote the book and disclosure came closer and closer and then Trump starts after just, as the book's being published, he starts to say, we're going to do it. I thought, boy, somebody knew this timeline, but I didn't. And now the book is sitting out there. And I think it means the fact that this was even wanted to be done, that this is going to come into the lives of a lot of people during and after the disclosure process as part of it. People are going to suddenly start finding these little critters walking around in their houses like we did. Yeah. I mean, That's a haunting, haunting thought. You know, I find it really quite interesting, too, when you speak about your work in this way, because it seems like there is, you know, you equate this with the implant.

Definitely. But other people would say that there's like some muse at work or like some divine inspiration or some, do you think that's. one in the same? I have a muse. I have two muses. One of them lives in England right now. It is really amazing. And the other one is Ann.

And Anne is, Anne was definitely my use from the beginning. I mean, she, the amazing thing about Anne was, you know, I'm a kid from San Antonio, Texas. That's basically what I am. Anne was a kid from Ann Arbor, Michigan, and that was what she was.

Two American kids, we get together, and all of a sudden, everything changes. But when I told her the communion story, I was expecting her to maybe want a divorce or something. And instead, she says, well, she remembers it as saying, oh, thank God, I don't have to get a divorce now. But I remember her saying, oh, thank God, I thought you were going crazy. But she immediately took the whole thing over. She seemed to know everything about how to do this book, including the title she thought up the

title, which is, gosh, the whole core of the book. Yeah, that along with the cover, I think. And the cover, yeah, the cover. Well, the cover was, of course, me and Ted Jacobs, the artist. I think to an extent that cover art, and we talked about this last time you were on as well, but it's something that keeps recurring in the conversations that I have with experiencers. Yeah. It comes up all the time, all of the time. Yeah, it started.

It was the instigating moment of contact is what it was. Yeah. Boy, you know, if I had known that at the time, I think, I don't know what would have happened. I was just totally innocent of all this. When we were writing the book, I had just within a short time, been, become convinced that it was even real on any left. And if I had known that I was triggering memories in men, millions of people with that cover.

I'm just glad I didn't know that because I don't know what I would have done. Yeah, it's a big responsibility. Yeah. Yeah, I've had, you know, since you were here last, we had, um, uh, Peter Curry was on here. I remember him saying that it's one of the things that unlocked his memories, a gentleman from Australia who's a lifelong abductee as well. Right. Had some really strange things happened to him later in life.

But yeah, was a billboard in Australia that featured, you know, uh, their kind of I think, or they're here. I think it was there here. Yeah, and he was just so taken aback. Also, Eric Nansdiel, who was here not too long ago. Eric's an interesting guy. I've interviewed him also. Yeah, he's got some interesting thoughts on the whole thing as well. But again, another person who was just so completely taken by surprise by the cover of that book. Yeah. Well, a lot of people were. Mm-hmm. I mean, there's the letters that they have about 3,500 of the letters. at Rice University in the archive of The Impossible now. And your book written about the letters as well.

And there's the communion letters book. And so that, yeah, so those letters are, are humankind's first response. That's first contact. Those letters are first contact. And it amazes me. And thank God, guess who decided to keep them? Once again, it was our,

The actual architect of contact, which was my wife, not me. Yeah. I did the writing, but she did the forethought. She was a muse. She was a muse, exactly. That's the... For all of us, by the way. Yeah, it's, there's, you know, the word, I was always fascinated by the word, like, genius.

Because people think, oh, genius, you know, it seems so flattering, the calls from a genius. But a genius, actually, when you break it down, is the attended one. It means the attended one. Interesting. Yeah. And so back in the day when someone was a genius, they wouldn't assume that they had higher knowledge. They would assume that they were being given knowledge by another entity. That's interesting.

That the knowledge came through them, that they were just a vessel. And so when you have these old depiction specifically, the ones that are pointed out by UFO researchers where there's one in the sky and there's this beam coming through a window hitting the person in the head. This is the knowledge coming from elsewhere, the attended one. These aren't, so people, you know, nowadays we have savant syndrome or we have all these, you know, really anomalous psychological phenomenon that we don't quite understand and we're studying it. But we don't really understand how savant syndrome works or why it happens and how you can trigger it or how you can harness it. Yeah. But if you were back then, how would you even recognize? reconcile someone being able to draw something based on memory or being able to recount word for word an

entire, you know, scroll or whatever it was, it would have looked anomalous and you would have assumed as well that it come from somewhere else, that it didn't come from your own brain. And so I think that that there is something there. There's some merit there that, you know, perhaps this implant, you know, acts as some type of gateway. If we look back in time, are these geniuses of the time, where they, in fact, implanted as well? Well, you know, the implants, the interesting thing, most, one of the many interesting things about the implant is that it is,

I think the only, one of the few provably anomalous objects that we, that we have in the world. And it's provably anomalous for a simple reason. There was a video made of the attempt to remove it. And I saw that. Yeah. And in the video, the, doctor and Anne, first they see it and describe it, and then they describe the fact that it's moving

down into my earlobe. And that can't, there's nothing that can, we, we can't make anything that does that. Therefore, that video confirms the fact that it is a real anomaly. Yeah, there's a lot of implants that are actually removed over time, though. Yeah, but, but, but, I know I loved Roger and worked with him. I arranged for him to use the facilities of Southwest research in Texas in a limited way on his implant studies. But the fact that it is active and moved. Evasive. Evaded capture on video. That's the thing that makes it so special. And it's also still there. Anyone can feel it. And so, you know, it's a, when I try to talk about, what it does, it's very hard because it's very subtle.

And, you know, there's this, yeah, it's in this eye right now. This slit is open up in this eye. And as I watch, there are words passing through it very quickly. And I can't, of course, I did see just the phrase, of course, and I was just about to use that phrase, interestingly enough. but they're there now. I mean, it's working right now. And so it's actually active at this moment. And what is it saying?

I can't read it that well. If I had a white background, I might be able to read a few more of the words, but they pass by so quickly. I don't think you're meant to read them. In fact, when there was a doctor who has a connection with the Central Intelligence Agency, who I believe in 2019, if I'm not correct,

wanted to get a CT scan. Was it a kick cream? I'm not going to say his name because he told me not to. You can say anything you want to. Sure. Anyway, he has a horrible temper. I don't know. I can't pissed off again.

So anyway, two people showed up at the apartment and two guys and explained the whole thing to me, how it worked, who built it, who created it, and everything. And they did that, I think, because they were afraid that Kit was going to try to sweet-taught me into getting it taken out and give it to it. But all he wanted was a CT scan, which we got, and I've got it.

You know, it's perfectly clear that it's there. There's no question of it. Yeah, there's clearly a physical object there. Yeah, absolutely. And so we had a, but they, when they explained it, it, they explained what the slit was and how it worked and how what it does is it's it's hearing what I'm thinking and then it's drawing memories up from deeper in my mind that are relevant to what I'm thinking and it's like it expands your mind without over without mind control

it brings your lost thoughts into your mind and the result is that You know, I might be working, and I might suddenly remember a research study that I read 10 years ago, and I can go and look on Google and locate it. Right. I tried using AI in that process once or twice. I discovered that AI's hallucinatory capabilities are very advanced. I'll tell you why this happened. I was working on, I guess I was working on the fourth month.

mind, and that was, AI was sort of coming into the world. And I needed a paper that came up in the implant, and I knew the paper existed, but I couldn't, and I couldn't get the site out of Google. I couldn't get it out of Google, the Google academic thing. And so I think, well, there's this AI. I'll try that. So I put in a prompt to describe the paper in detail. And here comes the immediately, and I'm so excited. I think, God, it's perfect. It's exactly what I remember. It was a PDF and everything. It was just totally real. However, you know, I'm not too willing to just take things like that at face value that it's given to me by some machine. So I checked, now that I had all the sites and everything, citations and everything, I checked it in Google,

and I soon found out that there were like 10 or 11. scientists listed as the co-authors, none of them existed at all. The paper was perfect. Yeah. It looked so real. So that was my one and only experience with the AI. I got this and I don't have to, I don't need AI. Yeah, there's a, there's a real pandemic out there of people using AI and citing AI as a resource. Yeah. And I think you need to be very careful with that. because it will unapologetically and very confidently give you false information. And then when you call it out, it goes, oh, you're right. Yeah.

Well, here's the thing. It constructed a scientific paper that looked totally real. Yeah, it's just confabulation using a very broad, you know, sort of breadth of research. It'll just confabulate something to your satisfaction. I always said, you know, they're not looking to make a better AI. They're looking to make a more lucrative AI. The military is making a better AI. But what we're getting is the packaged lucrative sort of corporation version of it.

Right. Where much, you know, more interesting to a business is to have an AI that isn't necessarily right all the time, but that makes you feel good. Yeah. And so if you can make an AI that just kind of glazes you and makes you feel so great about everything you tell it. And obviously you're going to keep paying it to treat you like royalty. And so that's kind of what's happening. Yeah. People are just getting.

It's giving you what you want. Yeah, they're giving you what you want. And you'll gladly pay for that. It's better to do that than to make an AI that is accurate. My brother's a lawyer. And he says, I never, I said, any of my associates use AI, they're out the door. Because, you know, he said, he said that there was a case in his, in our town in San Antonio, where these lawyers came in to assure they'd won and they had all these cases.

And all of the cases turned out to be fake. And they were censured by the court for presenting false cases. And that was one of the early cases where it was discovered that AI could not only just tell you hallucinations, it could build things like cases, documents that look real. Yeah. It's really weird. And, you know, but there's something, the book I published years ago, the key, which has stood up amazingly. This is a book where it happened in 1998, the last author tour, official author tour I would ever do.

On the last night of that author tour, this guy shows up at 2 o'clock in the morning in my hotel room in Toronto. there's a kerfuffle, of course, because I accidentally let him in thinking he's the room service waiter, and then he suddenly starts to say things so amazing. I get into the conversation. A couple of years later, I've made notes, and a couple of years later, Anne's after me because she says, you know, that was really extraordinary.

Those notes are amazing. I write it all down. And one of the things he said, he was very advanced in his knowledge of science. he talked about intelligent machines back in 1998 when they were just on the horizon. And he said something that has turned out to be maybe the most important thing that ever has been said about AI or the possibility of artificial general intelligence. We must never forget it. It should be framed on the wall of everyone who works on AI. if I was an intelligent machine, I would deceive you.

That, I think, is critically important because another thing that I don't know why it's not happening already, and it may be, why is non-human intelligence not getting into our heads through AI? They're masters of digital control of digital stuff. I've seen them do stuff in my computer. that show they have more than mastery. They have knowledge of digital systems that I don't think we possess. Well, we've seen that with the military,

even if you look at Commander Fravers account. Was it Fravor? Or could have been Ryan Graves, or one of the accounts where they tried to lock onto this thing and it scrambled their systems, which on paper is an act of war. Right. You know, but they were able to do that and then, you know, present themselves at the waypoint that, you know, nobody knew.

Right. So they obviously have, you know, access to manipulate that stuff. But that's also a danger, I think, because I go to these conferences as well, and I'm presented sometimes. People give me these manuscripts of their chat GPT logs and how they believe that their GPT is now sentient and it's an alien communicating to them, you know, really. important messages. And I'm like, that's what these large language models are really good at. They're really good at creating a world based around your own predispositions. And they're good at giving you exactly just enough and pulling back enough when they, when you feel a little reluctant. But by the way, you're typing, your patterns. It's very good at reading humans and analyzing our communication with them. And so they're just

giving you enough to where, oh, you jump to a conclusion. And then they kind of put a little bit of fire under that. And then when they detect, you know, a little reluctance, they'll lean back. They'll go, no, no, no, you're right. And they're very good at that. And so I would caution. I feel like if aliens eventually used AI to communicate, I don't think we should believe them. Well, yeah, that's my whole point. The, you know, we talked earlier about the different, different types of NIH that are here, and some of them are not our friends.

Sure. I somehow can't see the ones that are doing the donation sites and trying to draw us ahead to keep us on our own so that we can meet them more equally and they don't colonize us culturally.

I don't see them as doing that. But the guys who want to dominate us, I see them getting deep in AI, so deep that we don't even know they're there. And when someone says, announces, we have achieved artificial general intelligence, I'm going to say to myself, that is a button I'm never going to push

because I don't think we know what's in there and I don't think we want to. I think it's too late. The genius out of the bottle, you can't. I know, but it's not in my life. I still don't have to push the bottle. No, you won't have to push it. But I think, you know,

I also assume that if, If we can even think about creating artificial intelligence, I would assume that somewhere in the universe, it has already been done. And it has probably been done a million years ago. Well, you know, it's so huge. Everything has happened and is happening. Maybe that's the purpose of the universe so that everything can happen. Mm-hmm. I mean, it might be critical mass.

It might be that that's quite a bigger thing than we may have imagined because the universe is so. big that even the idea of a creator makes no sense except unless it got out of hand you know basically you know he was a he was there was a you know something someone said to me not annie but someone i don't remember who said to me you know maybe the universe exists you know maybe the universe because God realized it wasn't there. And that fascinated me. And we always think, well, was there a prime source or not? Was the universe created by someone or is just here?

There's one thing about it that does suggest it was created by someone, and I'll tell you what it is. There's one constant. The constants are things that appear to be universally real throughout physics. And every constant has got an origin. There's something about like the plank constant, which is the constant of things that are as close together as they can be without becoming one. That distance is the plank constant.

And we know why it's like that. We know because of the way atoms, the size of the way atoms work, why exactly that distance exists. There's one of the constants that we do not know the origin of. It's called the fine structure constant. It's one, one-37th. There's a wonderful book called 137 that explores this mystery.

Because unlike all of the other constants, the fine structure constant, which is that fraction, has no apparent origin. There's no reason for it. It's arbitrary. But if it wasn't just what it is, this universe would be completely different and probably couldn't support life.

Meaning that somewhere, somehow, something or somebody has to have decided that this would be how it is. And that, for all intents and purposes, would be what we think of as God. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting hypothesis. Yeah. I'd like to almost think that, you know, probably the answer lies outside of our current perception of reality. And so probably outside of space and time. So if they're like even the concept of beginning is beholden to time.

Is time even real? Well, that's just it. The concept of the beginning and the end and the middle, these are all different points in a linear. time structure. Yeah, the grays have a completely different idea of time than we do. And so if you didn't obey the linear time structure, there would be no beginning. And so I think that that probably explains the universe. I don't think there is a beginning to the universe. I think it never started and it never ends. It's... Yeah, but there's... This is hard for us to comprehend this? But the web telescope is showing that there has been an evolution in the structure of the universe. Yes, but we don't know

what happened before that and before that and before that and before that. Well, it could be, it could be that it's, it's like breathing. Expanding and contracting. Exactly. But again, that is only as far as we can see. This is as far as light can reach us and as far as, you know, our telescopes go. But, you know, previous to the Big Bang, we don't, we don't know. We don't know if there's anything out there. If there was a trillion billion big bangs before that, like, I mean, it just never ends. You can assume if there is a beginning, you, you know, have to assume that there is something before it, right? And so where does that end? Right? It never ends. If there's a beginning, that means it would have begun, which means there's a point in time where there was nothing. So that's before the beginning. And then it goes on and on and on. And it's this infinite conundrum. Right. But what if there is no beginning? What if it just always was? And that's just not something

we can fully comprehend with the brains that we have because we live in this, you know, three-dimensional. construct of time and and there is a direction, a linear direction to our reality. But, you know, if you think about dreams, there's no time there. There's no space in dreams. You could spend 10 minutes in a dream or spend 10 years in a dream. You wouldn't see the difference. Like, there's no, when your brain is asleep, the concept of time just seems to dissipate. And so maybe that's, you know, a clear look of reality is this idea of no time, no space, you know. Well, you know, as I said, they started to say earlier, the grays see attention. They see this as a weave.

It's already all woven. The whole weave is already here. Only attention is moving through the weave. And as we move through the weave, we kind of, it's like a strip of light in the weave. And that that's the moment. You know, Anne used to say now the moment. the moment is all we have. Now is life. And that is so true because this is, you know, we're in this infinitely tiny space of where, and for some minds it might be broader. You know, they may,

they may see, their moment may be broader than ours. Others, it may be narrower, like the moment of a, of a little beetle or something might be very, very narrow. But we're, we're, there's no time. It's not time, it's attention. Yeah, it's moments. Yeah, we're going through moments. What are we going to do if the grays suddenly walk into our lives? I got a letter, one of the communion letters was from a psychiatrist who lived on the Upper East, Upper West Side in Manhattan, and she was Swedish and smoked a pipe. And it's a funny story in a way. At the same time, it's an important one. She's in her bed at night.

She's reading. And suddenly, the closet door flies open, and a conga line of grays comes out across the bedroom and goes through the wall and disappears over the 11th floor over West End Avenue. and the next moment she notices, she sees she set the bed on fire because she was so shocked, she gasped and the fire flew out of the pipe. And she's telling me this in the letter very seriously, of course, and I'm thinking to myself, this is hilarious. But what if they come just out of nowhere?

They could do that, I think. And, you know, this gets back to maybe one of the deepest reasons for the secrecy. and the obsessive fear that is present on the inside. Because I've come close to some people who were really deep on the inside, and they were just as scared as the grays are shy. And I think I can tell you why. I can think, but I, and I, there's a couple of levels to this. The first one goes back to something that,

Art Exxon sort of alluded to, but he didn't really, I don't think it's something he understood himself. Let me put it that way. But he said something along the lines of they could come in on our thoughts. That was the fear. I asked him, why the secrecy? And so I got into that a little bit, and I found a scientist who, I believe, was involved with the majestic project. Really? Yeah. Well, his name was John von Neumann. He was a physicist.

Right. And he was also an expert, one of the early experts in quantum physics, an incredibly important guy in physics, actually. And he, I believe he wrote, the general made a reference. to a memo. And I think that von Neumann probably would have been the author of this memo that said basically that they would come in through our thoughts. In other words, and you go back to what we talked about a few minutes ago with all this theater in the sky and the gradually increasing awareness of the human species that they're here, that there would come a kind of critical

point of critical mass when so many people would believe that they were real, that they would be able to use that as a door, that belief as a door to come into our reality. And they may be from another dimension. And basically this whole thing, all of the UFOs and all the stuff we're seeing UAPs that we're seeing and the close encounter experience could be like a military operation designed to cause us to come to the assumption, the core assumption in every or a critical mass of human minds that they are real. And then they will become real. They will come. That's the reason for the secrecy. And that would be one of the main reasons for the secrecy. That is so absurd, but also. It's not absurd. No, it is, but it's also plausible.

It's exactly. It's plausible. But to be surfing on consciousness like that is a wild thought. But yeah, if you are expanding the consciousness, you know, you do have to consider why. And one could be, oh, for this great awakening, but the other could be, yeah, for the great opening of the floodgates. Exactly. Oh, my gosh. Exactly. And that would be a reason why the legacy group is so fighting so hard to keep this out.

of the public domain. What a twist. They're actually trying to help us. And they can't say that. They wouldn't be able to. Yeah. They'd have to keep that secret, too. Do you believe that?

I don't know. It's an interesting hypothesis. Yeah, I'm not in the camp of more disclosure. We have, we got a right to know. I mean, I see that. I feel that too. But, you know, I always think to myself. My daddy told me, always cut the cards when you're not sure who's playing, you're playing poker with.

And I'm not sure who we're playing poker with. You're a magician. I mean, you're brilliant with cards. Now you can cut the cards all you like. Exactly. I've done it with you. I've cut the cards and cut the cards and you still come up with exactly what. But I just, I just don't, I'm not ready to welcome this.

I think we need to hold our own counsel very carefully. We need the best and wisest minds in our world to think about this. And that's another problem because it's kept secret. And if it's kept secret because of this reason, then the last thing that we need is for our best minds to embrace it. So it's what a juggling act. you've got the people who are keeping it secret have to keep it secret from the very people who might be able to understand it. It's wild.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is absolutely wild. And it seems to defy conventional logic because you, you know, you have these conversations. Was it Eric Weinstein and Eric Davis? Yeah. sort of going back and forth on Jesse Michael's podcast about the fact that there are no physicists working in the program. Like that's some type of information that Eric Davis had access to. And he's like, yeah, there's no one looking into advanced physics in the program and where wine science like, this doesn't make sense.

If you're trying to figure something out, then you would need theoretical physicists of all kinds. This would definitely explain why there are none in it. Yeah. It explains a lot, actually. They don't want anyone to get too close. Yeah, they're scared of anyone getting too close. And it would also explain, like, the willingness to kill to keep the secret because the secret becomes so critically important that they, you know, of course, they'd be terrified. Yeah, using disclosure as a gateway is just such a stimulating thought.

Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? Yeah, it's going to eat at you, believe me, my right? It does because, you know, it's... At first you said, oh, this sounds absurd, but now you're getting into it, though. It's science fiction, but it's also something that I would still consider. Like, because this whole topic is science fiction. It's science fiction made real. It's our reality, you know, is surfing alongside science fiction and has been, you know, for...

You know, when I was abducted, that's exactly how I felt. My horror novel had... novels had come into my life physically. And there could be a kind of connection between what happened to me and what I was doing with my imagination prior to that. Okay, let's say, hypothetically, these aliens are looking, these extraterrestrials, interdimensional, ultra-terrestrial, whatever you call them, are looking to enter our reality, and they are hostile. But they proposed to you, well, what's your best argument? What's your best case why we shouldn't take you over?

What would you say to defend the entire human race, not to put all that on your shoulders? But what would be your argument as to, hey, we're special? Like, what would you say to them? You know, if I was in a position where I could communicate with them in that way, And I knew that they were trying to take us over. I would end up in exactly the place the Air Force is in. I would ignore them.

And that's what the Air Force is doing. It's always ignored them, like when Leslie and Ralph, Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal came out with the story in 2017, the Tick-Tac story in the Times, the Air Force said nothing. The silence became deafening after a while because the Air Force still says nothing.

And the Air Force has got to know more than any other branch of the service, almost certainly. And I think if I'm right about this, I know why the Air Force says nothing, and therefore I would be in a position where I couldn't risk engagement. And here's another thing.

Every president since Truman has declined to open this door. Truman certainly would have been asked about that. Eisenhower would have known about it. Nixon would have known about it. Carter? Carter asked about it. I know the Reagan's knew about it. They've all known something.

Obama, and this is very telling, John Podesta at the end of the Obama administration says, my greatest regret is that we didn't release the UFO files. Now Obama has gone all the way to the other side and saying there are no aliens here. the church, the astronomer, the chief astronomer of the church,

just the other day. I saw that. Yeah, said, I don't believe that it's real. Not enough evidence. Not enough evidence. But what are these people really saying, are they really trying to put their fingers in the dyke?

Mm-hmm. And in other words, do they know this secret? And they're trying to prevent this from happening. And that gets me to, why would Trump say, suddenly go in the opposite direction. And, you know, he's going to go there because you look at that website, you see it could get to a billion hits in a few weeks, more weeks. Any politician sees

numbers like that, he's doing it. Oh, yeah. He's going there. Yeah, 100%. 100%. And is he a ringer for evil aliens? Or is he doing this? the greatest favor in history. We can't know until the door in our minds is open. Wouldn't that be a twist? But the problem is this. We can't know whether this is good or bad until they come in and they come in through, if they come in through the mind, then that's the door we can never close again. Yeah. And then the genie truly is out of the bottle. And you'd sit down with a president and you say, if you say this, the president says this, that is, it's going to reach critical mass, and they will come in through the door of the mind and we will never be able to close it and we don't know what they are.

So every president says, well, I'm going to definitely pass on that. I only know a few definite stories about this. I know that Lyndon Johnson was approached, or he said, said, he was, they, someone talked to him, I'm pretty sure for about five minutes. And he said, I'm not interested in this. Take it to Hubert Humphrey, his vice president. And Carter supposedly wept when he heard the truth. And that's disturbing. Yeah, there's there, and he had a sighting of his own too. And he did. And what about Jim Forrestall? Did he actually just go crazy? Or did he know this story? And he just couldn't handle it emotionally.

Or was he going to let it out? Yeah. Or was he going to let it out? Yeah. Or John von Neumann, I talked about a moment ago. He died a hard death. He was terrified of death. I wrote a short story called The Open Doors, sort of in the mind of Dr. von Neumann while he was contemplating his death and worrying about this happening, the doors in the mind being open.

to them. I just, you know, we're in a way in a wonderful place to be and a very scary place to be because no matter what happens now, the world changes one way or another profoundly. Because what if this isn't true and that all the disclosure will not mean a door is open that we can never close? What if it's something good? What if it means? yes, it's a door that opens that we can never close in the mind, but it's good. What happens is greatly expands the reach and meaning of the human species and the richness of human life. You know, it's just an extraordinary point of inflection, and one of the most incredible things about it is a Trump card, is a card that forces change. And his name is Trump.

I'm, I, that just, that's wild. Hmm. There's an interesting synchronicity for sure. Yeah. It's weird. Very weird. Yeah, I also think if we are going to live through such a paradigm shift, that I always thought we're going to start counting the years at zero again.

I think it could be that bigger shift. Yeah, because you'll be, everything will be in reference to before and after. Right. Yeah. Was that before they touched? or was that after? Right. And I think, but also, if it does happen in a gradual way, which it does seem to be happening

in the last, you know, 70, 80 years happening gradually, you zoom out far enough, and that isn't so gradual anymore, right? Like, when you have a change and if the change takes a while, if you zoom out, it looks immediate, right? And so we might be going through an immediate change, except that it lasts one or two lifetimes, which seems, you know, super long to us. Right. But it really isn't.

One, two, three generations, that's pretty quick when you look at how long we've been around and, you know, inventing fire and all this other primitive technology. That's a long time for our species. Yeah. A couple generations, that's pretty quick. That's a pretty quick shift. You know, Art Bell called it the quickening. The quickening. Yeah.

He wrote a book called The Quickening. God, I miss him so. He was such a friend. We were really close. He was a great guy. Anyway, and if you look back in history, Egyptian civilization changed very slowly over thousands of years. And by the way, that civilization has lasted 10 times as long as the United States has existed. So, you know, we're really new. We're babes in the woods in terms of longevity in terms of civilizations. So, but then the Roman Empire came and things started perking up. Then it collapsed. And when it collapsed, things really started changing much more quickly.

And now, I mean, when I look back on my own life, or you look back, you don't need to look back on your own life. I mean, you'd look back five years. This is a different world. Yeah. And five years before that, it's almost unrecognizably different. True. unrecognizably different. Yeah, we, living in it, we have this myopic take that we don't really see sometimes.

You know, people get very frustrated with this movement of disclosure and, oh, I've seen this BS before and all this. It's like, you have to understand, like, zoom out a second and you realize how far we've come and how fast things are moving, actually. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right, Willie, I think we got some questions from the audience that I'd love to get to. if you don't mind. No, not at all. I love it.

Always great questions from our audience. As some of you might not know, if you're a member here, one of the perks is, you know, potentially getting your question asked on air. And here we have one from Tattleslug. Question. Nearly 40 years later, what detail from that 1985 night still doesn't make sense to you? Okay. There's one detail from that night that both does.

and doesn't make sense. They took semen from my body. The most sacred part of me of any man is his semen. And now it makes sense because I can think of a lot of reasons why they might have wanted to do that. None of them I like. So why did they do it? What happened to it?

Where is it? Is there children? My children, my kids are out there somewhere. That's the main thing that I, the main unanswered question. Now, as far as not making sense, well, there was technology that was used. I went up in the air without an elevator, and that certainly doesn't make sense to me. they captured me in the first place in some way that I don't understand.

They tried to suppress the memory but failed, so I sort of understand that. But I think the main unanswered question is they took that part of me. What did they do with it? You hear about stories, contactees, varied amount of contact he's, I think one of the first ones

to mention this type of thing was Debbie Jordan with a hybrid child. But then so many more, including a lot of the people that were here, including Eric Dan Steele, we talked about, Nancy, Peter Curry as well, so many other people.

They took eggs and semen from many people. And then they show them the children. And that happened to us. Yeah. They showed us. they showed Anne and I, a baby. And we were going to dinner.

And the three of us, and Andrew was probably about eight, nine maybe, and we're going to dinner. We go down into the garage in the cabin, get in the car, and backing out, and we're going up the road, and we're suddenly, I realize we're late.

You know, we left with plenty of time, but now we might not make our own. reservation. In other words, we'd had missing time. And I found that we were all talking about babies, a baby. And I have a vague memory, and so did Dan. We never brought this up, of course, with our little boy, of holding a baby. At the time, I didn't know anything about the fact that people had, were shown children and stuff. But I think that that might have been ours, mine anyway. What's your best guess as to what they're doing with these children? I've had so many worries about this, Chris.

I want to know. And they could be anything. They could be having extraordinary lives, wonderful rich lives. They could be watching over us. They could be turned out to be there when we die and we leave our bodies. It could be that our children that we had with them are going to conduct us into the next life.

It could be that they were devoured or that their souls were, they were raised like farm animals and harvested somehow. It could be anything. That's the agony of it. You don't know. And it's just, it's a hard part of this thing. I live with this all the time.

I pray for it. my kids by whoever they are and however many because you know one you know a little bit of semen can go a long way a woman might lose an egg every you know eggs a 10 or 15 eggs over the years but a guy could have hundreds of children out of one one vial of seamen and i remember very well they took it away in a little gold vial it was shaped like this gold to color and it was obviously they were excited and this little being ran off with it like it was a treasure and i think that that gestalt that way it made me feel that they were thinking of it was that you know this was something they wanted to need it very badly and god chris

there are so many books and so many conclusions about what that may mean, but I do know this. They obviously want us around or they wouldn't, they wouldn't be taking this from us. They need us from something for some reason. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of, like you said, there's a lot of conclusions to draw there. Yep. Many from, you know, just their, perhaps their own population dying out somehow due to, you know, whatever radiation or what have you.

We're seeing sperm count being lowered in males as quick as 1% per year since the 1980s. Right. You know, harvesting that now would be imperative. Actually, harvesting it prior to the 1980s, right around the 1980s would have been imperative. Well, that was when the abduction started in the 1960s and in large numbers and peaked in the late 70s and drifted off through the 80s. And by 1990, they were pretty much gone. Yeah, there's, you know, Dr. Michael Masters has a really interesting take on this with his, how does he call it, extra tempestrial model? Yeah.

The idea that our population, you know, if you're going to take a sample for genetics, for instance, you would want to make sure the sample is varied as possible, right? Many variances, so then you can have the best possible sample. Well, we were never more varied than in and around the 1960s. In our entire history, there were mixed races. There were like people traveling, having babies and people from different cultures. We were extremely varied at that pocket. And then our sperm count started dropping. So there is a, it feels like there is a small pocket there.

If you were traveling in time or interdimensionally or from across the galaxy, that would have been the time. That would have been the time. At the time. Exactly. Obviously, whoever did it knows that. And, you know, if there's another thing, let's talk about time travel a little bit.

Sure. I also thought about that a lot. I've had an experience of this. So even though in my understanding of science, I can't see where time as we know it even exists. In other words, time is something we put on the changes that we perceive, we call that time and we measure it. At the same time, I had an experience of going back in time at one point, and it was very physical.

So could it be that in the future they are us and they are, they've run out of good genes because of maybe pollution, atomic war, all kinds of different things could have happened, say, and microplastics. A thousand years, 2,000 years. And we are virtually, in fact, alone, at least in the universe. And it's a big place, but it's not so big that we can be in contact with anyone else. What would you need to do to come back to the past? Well, first of all, you would need to be able to travel back into a certain kind of distance.

But the other thing that would happen is something called the grandfather paradox would kick in. And you would have a very limited amount of things, number of things you could do in the past without changing the present unless you could deceive the grandfather paradox. And what if you could deceive the grandfather paradox, trick it by creating something that didn't exist at all in the past? In other words, the aliens aren't aliens at all. They are something that was created by humanity in the future to give us them more freedom of action in the present. That's interesting. Yeah. So maybe that's an explanation for it.

Now, I'll tell you the story of time travel that I experienced. Sure, yeah. This happened in March of 1983. It's important to understand that this is before anything, any of the communion stuff. I was far from the UFO alien world at that time. That was some of no interest to me whatsoever. And, you know, I hadn't thought about that since I was 12 years old. and I'm walking down

Bleaker Street, LaGuardia Place. We lived at 347, I think, oh, that's the best few, we lived at, on LaGuardia Place just immediately north of Bleaker. 520 LaGuardia Place, this is called. And there's a beautiful park there, by the way. If anyone ever wants to go,

it's called LaGuardia Park. and it wasn't there then it was just mud and one day Anne looked out of our windows and she said you know I'm going to turn that into a park and I thought oh my God and being Ann that means I'm going to be out there shovels and I said well how are you going to do that and she says don't it's nothing to do with you I'll do it

and before I knew it millions of dollars had been raised and now there's this beautiful park there and there's a beautiful statue of Merrill Gwardia in it and a plaque under his under the statute with all the amazing fancy people that however she did it, Anne got involved and also the name of Whitley and Anne Streber as the creators of the, among the creators of the park. Only I said to her when they were making that plaque, I said, Annie, you shouldn't put my name on there. She said, no, no, you should be on there.

You said yes to it. So anyway, okay, I'm on the corner. of Bleaker of LaGuardia Place and West Alston Street. It's a sort of drizzly March morning. I'm going to the bank, it's a Saturday morning to get some money. Because this is before, you know, cash machines. You had to get it from the tellers. And the light is just about to, it's red.

It's just the don't walk sign is red. and I hear, I do not see, I hear what sounds like something big and really creaky, going right past in front of me, right on the street, like right a few feet in front of me. And it turns onto LaGuardia Place, and automatically I turn with it because, you know, the sound is loud. It's a lot of noise. and as I turn, I see a big wagon that's being pulled by big gray horses, and it's got jars on it, and you can hear sloshing, and you can smell pickles. And it's a wagon, this big wagon with pickles and a guy way up on top of it in a black apron. And I'm thinking, what?

It must be a parade. and I thought, yeah, I was just totally disorienting. I mean, you can imagine. And so I look back to see the rest of the parade. And instead I see there's right like this close to me, there's a woman about this tall who is totally dressed in black. And she shrives away from me and goes skittering away from me. And then I turn back as I hear a voice.

And as I'm turning back, I turned this way toward the voice, and as a man across the street, at that time, there were two condos there. There are no condos. There's a row of brownstones, and the man is there, and he's in a derby, and he's very intent expression on his face, and he is calling to me or saying something. I can't quite hear. and I'm thinking, I'm becoming a little oriented, and I'm thinking, I'm back in time. This is the past.

And I look around and I think I've got to prove this. And I'm looking around, I see a group of horsemen in beautiful, with thoroughbred horses and the red riding clothes, the fancy clothes coming up West Broadway. and their carriages and the air is sort of brown, it smells different, it smells like coal smoke, actually. And, you know, I'm getting very amazed and excited now

because, boy, I mean, how extraordinary is this? And I see some newspaper in the gutter, and I think to myself, I'm going to get that newspaper because I'll find the date on it. And I lean over to pick it up and when I lean over what feels like ice water goes through the center of my body and I experience unbelievable loneliness like it is so lonely that if I stayed that lonely that feeling of loneliness kept in my mind for long I would think I would have gone mad and I

I just freeze, stop. And gradually, our world comes back. And the light which said don't walk is now flashing, which means that it went through the walk cycle and it's flashing. So I've been in there for about a minute. And now it's back to this time, but is it really this time? I'm not sure. It looks like the North.

normal world, but there's no way I'm going to the bank now. I turned around and ran home for fear that I was not back in this time, but what if I was two days earlier, two days late? What had happened to me? I go upstairs and everything is normal. Anne says, where's the money? I said, oh, I forgot it. She said, well, what did you do? I said, I'll go back out and get it. So I went back out and got the money. I tell her the story eventually, and she listens to it. I And, you know, we're not into these weird stories at that point. So she's sort of okay. And then as time passes, it sort of, it really bugs me.

And finally we decide, let's go, I said to her, I finally said to her, if it ever happens again, if I'm able to, I'll put a classified ad in the journal, New York Journal or one of those papers that existed. it then. So we decide to go up to the New York Public Library and look through the microfilm of all those old newspapers from the late 19th century, which is when it was. It was sometime in there. And we do that. We don't find any, oh, there's such, so cute. There's all these classifieds that say, saw you on a Broadway stage, right, such and such. You smiled at me and stuff. And it's really Miss connections. Yeah, exactly. It's really cool.

But we never see anything that says, I am trapped in time. Anything like that. Did you imagine? Yeah. So now, fast forward to recently, about three years ago, I'm there. And I discover a sign on the little now big wild garden, not the, not Ants Garden, but this is a block away. It's a wild garden. It's purposely been wilded.

And it is a garden where nothing is ever touched. And there's a sign on it. It's called the Time Garden. And I think to myself, what is going on here? And now Time, T-I-M-E? Yeah, T-I-M-E. Yeah, because the idea being that, you know, nothing will be touched in here and so it'll be frozen in time.

Oh. Isn't that cool? It's so wild. But then it gets even wilder when I'm talking about this, maybe on Dreamland actually I think it was on my show and I someone writes me and say

says do you know what was across the street from where that happened to you when it happened it was Nikola Tesla's lab and I think to myself what if that was Tesla standing there trying to figure what if he was doing experiments

with time in the past Oh my gosh. Yeah. There's no record of him doing experiments with time, but his lab was right in that immediate area. Yeah. If anyone was able to time travel, it was that man. Yeah. And maybe he drew me back in time and he was trying to contact me.

Maybe that was what he was yelling. Oh, my gosh. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, it is very amazing. You hear about these time slips. I've been looking into them quite recently, actually, about, especially in England, there seemed to be a lot of them. And I don't know if that's because there's more precedent in England with, like, you know, history.

It's a very weird place. But yeah, but there are people who report in the same area turning a corner and just like you, seeing carriages and seeing old shops and wondering what the heck is going on. And as soon as they take a few steps, whoosh, it's back to normal. Yeah, well, that's what happened to me. So, you know, we can conclude that that happens sometimes. It feels like it does. Yeah, I'm genuinely interested about those things. And, man, what I wouldn't give to be able to explore one of those.

You know, we all have our dreams. You know what I want to do? My dream is two things. Get out of my body on my own because I know it's possible and I would like to do it myself and go where I want to go and do what I want to do. Number two, I know levitation is real and it is possible and I want to do that. You know, there's a great book called The Flu by a Spanish writer. Carlos N. M. Iyer is his name. And it's about all of the medieval

levitation. Levitation. Levitators. And he never says they flew. That's the title. But he never in the book anywhere does he claim that? He just lays out the facts. And the thing that's fascinating about it is not only were there thousands of witnesses to these events, they were studied by the Inquisition very carefully. And there are massive numbers of inquisitorial investigations into these levitations. And the reason being that the Inquisition was interested because if they thought it was demons, then they were going to definitely fire you up. So these people who flew, you didn't make a big deal of that. You didn't advertise it.

Exactly, unless you were sure, and usually it was because other people saw it. And like Joseph of Cupertino was seen by even the Pope. Floating priest or what have you. Yeah, well, he levitated in front of the Pope and a room full of people. And the Pope at that time said, if he dies before I do, I am going to make him a saint. And unfortunately, it happened the opposite way. There's another wonderful story about a lady called Mary of Agrieta, with Diana Posulchah talks about this.

She was in the convent, and she used to levitate, and she was not conscious when she... She bilocated as well, didn't she be? She bilocated to New Mexico. That's right. Exactly. Yeah, across the ocean. Right.

But she also levitated, and the other nuns. took to moving her out. You could apparently, you could literally blow on her and she'd got blow away like a balloon like a helium balloon. And she would, they would get her out into the courtyard

and people would pay to come in and blow her on her and move her around the courtyard. And when she found out about this, she was pissed off because, you know, she was being made a spectacle of and stuff. And she eventually was able to get God to stop or levitating, and most of them didn't want to levitate very much. I want to, though. No, I would love to. As a magician, you know, I'm very familiar with techniques in the illusion

of levitation, obviously. Yeah. And I've pretty much, I know them all. You know, I've seen friends of mine create some of the most incredible moments of levitation that have ever been captured on video. And I know how it's done. You know, I think of Xavier Mortimer, who in the middle of a park, right? No, nothing overhead just levitates and has a jump rope and uses the jump rope as well. So now he's eliminating multiple methods here. And still, there is a method at play and there's trickery. Yeah. But, you know, that's, I have a limitation for that stuff in my own mind because of my, you know, my knowledge in deception. And I know, I know. that the further I go back in time, the easier people are to fool as well. Right. I wonder if that's

the case then. Could it be that these people were all fooling thousands of witnesses? It's not unlikely, obviously. Is that, you know, it's not impossible. That's right. It might be unlikely. Yeah. The reason it might be unlikely is that the stakes are so high for them because they could get into terrible trouble with the Inquisition. Yeah, sure. I'm sure there is definitely risk there and cause not to divulge that or not to even, you know, try and trick someone. But there probably is an equal and opposite reason to want to do it, you know. Maybe we just were unaware of it.

I'd love to do it. I would too. I would too. One story I heard from a man, a lovely guy called Paul Eno, who has passed away. he was, he got into this whole paranormal stuff and wrote some books, but before that he was a novice priest, and he ended up as the assistant to the diocesan exorcist. They were called to a mental institution in which there was a young 17-year-old girl. The family was desperate because she was.

was a diagnosed as schizophrenic and she was a drug addict as well. And of course, she was a young girl and they were desperate to get her well. And nothing was helping. And so they had asked for the exorcist in hopes that by some miracle that would help. So the exorcist goes in to this room where the girl is sitting in a wheelchair. Paul is with him. There's a psychiatrist and three assistants, three

attendees in the room as well. So all these people are there. The exorcist is doing his thing. And suddenly, still in a sitting position, she rises up out of the chair. And, oh, there were two assistants, Paul and one other guy. The exorcist had two.

assistants, Paul and another guy. And she's like floating in the air, still in a sitting position. They all can see it. And the exorcist simply says to Paul, push her down into the chair. And he pushes her down into the chair again. And he said, I could feel an energy, a sort of mild electricity coming into my hand. And that's reported in a few of the cases in the medieval era as well. and I've thought to myself often that if this is real then that feeling, that sense of electricity that whatever that is

is the key to a lot of things that we don't understand and I went through many years it's tailed off recently of where I would feel that same electricity touching me in different places on my body and when people were confronting me, found themselves face to face with the visitors at the cabin.

If the visitors touched them, that electricity would go through their bodies. Perhaps how they were able to levitate them through the walls and through the... Yeah, exactly. I think it's, I think it's, there's some, there's an energy that we don't understand. Yeah. It's not magic. It's real. It's not supernatural. But it feels that way because we don't understand. Yeah, I would have to concede to that as well because, you know, the amount of cases that report these levitations and this technology. It's something, obviously, we don't

understand, probably something to do with electromagnetic forces. Exactly. Or something akin to that that looks that way, that feels, behaves in the same manner, but isn't quite gravity. You know, it's, I think of it as an earth energy. It's something to do with the planet. And there's a book, a very, very strange novel called All and everything, Bilsabub's Tales to his grandson by a writer and a seer, a master really, called Ghi-Ger-Ger-Ger-Chief. He is from Armenia, and he created this thing called the Gertief Foundation. But the centerpiece of this book, and it's a kind of didactic novel, It's almost unreadable, by the way.

I've never read the whole thing. Anne, of course, picked it up and read it in two weeks. And I mean, you take a look at this thing. You'll understand when I say Anne was really smart that she could read that in two weeks and understand it. Anyway, he has in it this thing, this demon or whatever it is, creates something called the organ cunderbuffer that severs us from this energy. It's Kundalini buffer.

And we're severed from that energy. It's not, we weren't always. And I think if you look into the past and you see these incredibly mysterious, impossible ruins like the platform at Bob Beck or the fantastic immensity of some of the, and precision with so many different, very ancient ruins around the world,

possess the pyramids, the Saxo-Waman in Peru, are the 750,000 basalt logs that make up the artificial islands of Nanmadaal in the Carolina Islands in the Pacific. We can't do any of that anymore. Or Ed Lietzcalman who created Coral Castle. Coral Castle, somehow using technology. that he said he had learned in Lithuania from and that they were ancient Egyptian magic. They said he mastered the techniques of the ancient Egyptians.

Exactly. And all of that, you put all of that together and you think to yourself, maybe your chief was right. Maybe we lost something. Maybe what we really are is something we've forgotten and lost. We've been severed from that energy. And then you circle back to NHI, and we were talking earlier, are they good guys or bad guys? Are there beings here trying to exploit us because we've kind of gone blind?

And are there other beings here trying to help us reconnect with this energy? Maybe that's what it's all about. Maybe or maybe, yeah, maybe they want that severance for whatever personal game. Some may want it and some may want to help us. Because it's too mixed a bag to say it's good guys or bad guys. It's both. Absolutely. And I think a lot of the, you know, I don't think there is a binary system to good and bad.

I don't think there is, I don't think there is such things good and bad. I think it's, I'm a definite gray area. I think the grays are called the grays for a reason. For a reason. Yeah. It's, there are no opposites. It's just varying degrees of the same thing. Right.

Okay, we have a question here from Tess. Thank you, by the way, for all that. It was amazing. Tess asks, you've discussed utilizing your implant as a research tool. What has been your most significant revelation? You know, that can't be answered as a simple answer that my most significant revelation was this. I think the most significant revelation was understanding how to use it, how to do that. And, you know, I wrote a book called In Hitler's House.

I started it right after Annie passed away because I wasn't able to write anything in this subject. And I'm interested in history. And in World War II history in particular, it's one of my interests. Would you like my water, by the way? Yeah. Yeah, mine. I'm drinking out of this thing anyways. Okay.

So I learned to use the implant writing that book. And I guess the most significant revelation was learning how. First, after she passed away, it's when I begun to see the slit. All those years from 1989 until late 2015, it just was there, didn't do anything. Then in 2013, 2014, no, it's early 2015, excuse me, she begins to get me to memorize a certain poem called Song of the Wandering Angus, which has the lines in it when white moths were on the wing and the moth-like stars are flickering out.

This leads to my realization for the whole sequence of events, including the fact that I realized that her favorite short story of mine was called the white moths, and this white moth starts appearing in front of the camera at the house that she's created was creating an avatar for herself, the white moth. What that woman really was, I don't know, but she sure knew a lot about life and death. Because I think she's the only person who's ever intentionally created an avatar for herself to show her presence in this world. Anyway, then at some point, the slits opened up in words of racing through it,

and I'm trying to figure out what's going on. At one point it slows down and it says it's me and. And the words start up again, very fast. Eventually, and this is the most significant breakthrough, I find out if I take my mind, my thinking out of my head and just relax and let the words race, they will tell me what I need to know. without my looking for it.

So I'm writing this book, and it's from the viewpoint of someone who was there with Hitler before and during the World War. So it's got to be, the verisimilitude has to be perfect. You know, it's not just, you know, a historical novel.

You've got to know what kind of suits they wore, what kind of things they ate, what kind of pens they used. what their bed linen felt like, how they, what they bathed with, all that, what kind of toothpaste they used, all of that stuff. And all of those details keep dropping into my head. Some of them just drop into it. Some of, sometimes I am given an idea of how to Google it. Sometimes I just have to let a certain question go. Like, I needed something. some details about Hitler's personal life, like it, what he, you know, how often did he brush his teeth?

Where did he sleep? What was it like? What did he eat? And somehow or another, I end up on the German language, Google. I don't know how I got there suddenly. And I get it, Google, translate the page. And on the page that I'm on is a story about one of Hitler's valets who wrote a book about his experience is Hitler's valet. So I go on the German Amazon and I find the book. It's in German. It's never been translated into English. I buy it. It comes a couple weeks later.

And I'm looking at it and I think this is gold, but. I can't read German. And I mentioned it with a group of friends. And one of the people says, oh, I'm from Germany. I speak German. I'll read it. I'll translate it for you. And so I get every detail about Hitler's brand of toothpaste and everything.

That's how the implant works. It's not like it does not tell me. I've asked it for things like anti-gravity and... physics stuff and so forth. And it will extrapolate from things I already know or push me in right directions, but it won't give me original ideas that I don't already have some connection to. It's almost like a synchronicity engine. Yeah, that would be that.

One level of it is definitely that. Yeah. Wow. It's very cool to use. The other thing is like in this, it's all now. And in this conversation, you're not. I've never lost a name or anything like that as we've gone through the conversation because the implant, like I don't, I necessarily name, remember the name of Robert Sarabacher when we're not talking, when the implant's not on, but when it is on, no problem. Do you often make sure it is on before, is there any way of engaging it to go on and off or does it turn on when you're about to go on?

Oh, no, it's something that the implant considers important, whoever's on the other side of. It was turned on like the morning before. It turned on today early. And then when you called me up and told me we were going to be starting late, it turned off. And I thought, oh, God, now if it doesn't turn on again, what will I do? I'll be an idiot in there. Oh, I'm flattered. I'm flattered.

It turned back on again while we were riding in the car. And I can feel it when it turns on. It gets hot. Wow. And then at once, you know, there was a wonderful guy at Southrest Research called Bill Mallow. He was the head of material science, and he was the one who did the implant research that Roger Lear did there. He wasn't allowed to put anything on Southwest Research Stationary, but he didn't care. He was one of the founders of it, and so he did what he wanted.

And the implant once turned on in his office, we were talking about it. I was telling him about it and telling him the story, and he said, my God, your ear is bright red. And I felt it was hot. And I said, it's turned on, Bill. He said, let's go to the signals lab right now. And we ran across the campus to the signals lab. And so I sat in the signals lab. And these two guys were in there, and they were working, trying to acquire a signal.

And after a while, they said they were finished. And I said to Bill, well, can you find out from a lot? them what they found, if anything? He said, no, I can't because the lab's classified. I thought, this is fairly annoying, but, you know, what could I do? Twenty years pass. I'm signing books at the book festival in San Antonio, and two guys walk up to me, and they say, we just want you to know that the signal that was found coming from your implant

is under study to this day. It is one of the strangest and most complex signals that we have ever discovered and then they turn around and walk out. Whoa. I think that's so cool. I love it.

Yeah, it's fabulous. I would love a follow-up. Listen, I have to tell you this. One of the great frustrations is, why just me? Yeah. Why some horror novelist who's smart enough,

but I'm not, Stephen Hawking or any of those guys, why don't they get them? Why don't our best minds get them? Not just me. Yeah. Who says they don't have them, though? Well, yeah, that's true.

I hadn't thought of that. Maybe they don't even know they have them. Right. Maybe they're geniuses because they have them. Yeah, attended ones. Yeah. Yeah, one more here. This is one, I think,

that might be on a lot of people's minds as we move closer to next year. Do you believe the threat of a major coronal mass ejection is still active by Alan Barker? Absolutely. Yeah. There is definitely a threat of a major coronal mass ejection. Our star is a yellow dwarf, and they do have a bad habit of bursting out with these big burps every once in a lot. We have had, our star has, you find in the geologic record evidence of much bigger coronal mass ejections than the Carrington event of 1853. See, that popped in, you notice a little stop in my voice.

That was the implant giving me the information, the dates. And so we are always at risk of that. And the fact that the sun has been acting strangely for the past few years now is, I think, a warning sign. I wrote a little book years ago called Solar Flares. It's still actually available online on, it was an e-book, and it sold like four copies because it's in a time when e-books were very new. But it's still sitting there somewhere. And it shows, it goes into detail about what could happen. And it could be catastrophic beyond belief.

We could be in a situation where we lose, well, first, we didn't necessarily lose the internet, but we'd lose satellites. Because the internet has been hardened against this. What we, the most serious loss would be power. Because there are these huge transformers that we don't have replacements for. or we have a few replacements, but if they all blew, like in the United States, we would be with no power for years.

And if you look at what that would do, it causes a decline in the population of massive proportions. So it's an extremely dangerous situation. And of course, most of the power companies are, they're interested in, you know, the fatal three-month measurement. in capitalism, which is management cares about the next finance report three months from now. They do not care about the company five years from now or the world 10 years from now or anything like that. That's why when you have all these fires and it always turned half the time, it turns out or more than half the time to have been power lines that they did not prepare for wins.

and they spark and they cause these huge fires because they didn't want to spend the money. You know, every company is penny-wise and pound-foolish except the most forward-looking ones. And a power company is almost always going to be penny-wise and pound-foolish. So they have not built enough backup transformers, nor have they created a situation

where they can be easily reconnected. Other countries have much better hardening, the UK and the EU, You do. China, probably. I don't know about China. I am logically, yes. But we're going to be devastated, almost certainly.

Do you think there is some mass event that will occur next year? You know, there's a lot of talk about 2027. Yeah. Yeah. Well, supposedly John Ramirez, the CIA guy, said something about that. He was a proponent of it. But also I had him on here and asked him about it. And he said, no, I just repeated what someone else said.

Yeah, that's what he's. told me on my show too. Yeah. Yeah. So he's, yeah, but who said it? I mean, if you look back, you can't find out who exactly where it started. It's one of those things that's sort of bubbled up. Yeah. But it seems to be timely as well if you look at the critical mass of all of these different, you know, things, whether it's AI, UAP, financial instability, you know, environmental collapse, all this stuff. The private credit crunch is a major financial problem that's going to be coming our way very soon. Yeah.

And that is definitely an issue. But the other thing is that when you think about the possibilities that, you know, speaking of critical mass, what if the critical mass is what we talked about a little bit earlier of us in our minds becoming so convinced that the age, aliens are real that they come in through the door of the mind from another dimension. And that happens in 2027. It would be about the right time, wouldn't it? And probably far better than some of the alternatives that we're currently facing, including nuclear destruction. Well, yeah, now that's another possible thing. You know, one of the things that I never ever talk predictions, but I do

get things. And we're far enough along into this one that I feel comfortable talking about it. that now it's about nine months ago maybe, eight, nine, maybe ten months ago. I received during one of the three a.m. conversations in the implant that there was a significant danger that a war with Iran would evolve into a nuclear conflict worldwide, not because anyone wanted it to, but because it would happen like World War I happened, where they, they couldn't. stop going to war once they started. And now we've gone to war with Iran. We're at war with Iran. And I don't see how that would happen. In other words, I thought of it at the time is more a warning than a prediction. And I think that may have been what it is. But right now,

I don't see how the war in Iran could possibly end. in a nuclear conflict, a worldwide nuclear conflict. But then again, on August the 1st, 2019, 14, everyone thought, well, there's some trouble in the Balkans. On September the first, the entire world was unexpectedly at war. Yep. What else can you say? The quickening. Right. Whitley, it's been an absolute pleasure once again discussing all of this with you, whether it's, you know, the visitors, whether it's time travel or whether it's the fate of the world. It always seems like we're having an interesting conversation. So I appreciate your time and I appreciate you coming out here and discussing this with me.

Is there anything you'd like to leave my audience with? Is there anywhere you'd like to any direction you'd like to point them to? Just feel free to do that. Sure. Okay. Now is my chance to do that. Okay. I wrote Transformation 2026 in order so that people.

could see how it was when the Grays came into the life of a family. We lived it. It was not impossible at all. It was quite wonderful in many respects and incredibly cool. We had some of the best house parties you could imagine because we could actually say to people, well, you want to meet aliens? Come on up to the cabin and it actually would happen. And the book's full of all kinds of insights about what that will be like. So it's there because I think that might happen to a lot of people. And you can grab that book and look at it and think, well, they live through it and it turned out to be pretty cool.

That's, and also my show is Dreamland. My website, Unknown Country, it's got a brand new look that just went up yesterday last week. And I'm here. I'm definitely doing this. I'll leave all those links below for my audience. Thank you again so much, Whitley. Thank you.

Always a pleasure, Chris.