AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay - UFO Researcher Reveals Personal Encounters - Jesse Michels - DEBRIEFED ep. 32

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

Patreon Exclusive Content: https://www.patreon.com/Area52investigationsAREA 52 Shop: https://www.area52.shopSecond Channel: @area52clipsJoin The Area52 Discord: https://discord.gg/C7ZB5M3qjvJesse Michels is the creator of American Alchemy, a YouTube series exploring the hidden forces shaping our world— In this podcast we talk about his personal UFO sightings that have changed his life's path. We also get in to alleged whistleblowers, secret programs and alien creatures being help in secret!

Let's talk about the things that you've seen. The three that I think are probably the most noteworthy on your podcast. It's like this school bus shaped rectangle thing, hovering like kind of right above the treetops. We were five minutes into our breathwork, and your hands can sometimes claim up, and his did. And so we had to stop for a second. And as soon as we stop, we look up, and we see two silvery wharbs.

And one's hovering above him, one's hovering above me, and they're both sort of like bobbing. Third sighting is with Lou Elizondo, so famous UFO whistleblower. And so we're deep in conversation on, you know, this sort of crazy science stuff. And we just see over the shed, we see a green fireball, just shoot off. Do you believe David Grush saw a craft? No, I don't think he's seen a craft. how put off seen a craft. That's interesting.

Maybe. Do you think that you've ever interviewed someone who you can confidently say has been inside a UFO? In a government context. Do you think yes or no that you've spoken to someone who is possibly, or has probably been in one of these crafts? Maybe. Okay. Yeah. I just thought of somebody who maybe, yeah.

I have these really good friends, Garrett and Nicole McNamara, And their friend brought another friend who's a long time kind of like aerospace, you know, employee or whatever. And he was at lunch and he looked a little sort of traumatized and they get into it. And they find out that this guy had been an employee at Area 51. Apparently he had been taken down, again, also underground. So similar to the Oscar Wolf story. And seeing a reptilian being in custody, like somehow. like chained up and the thing seemed to speak to him like telepathically and he freaked out.

So I grew up in southeast Georgia near a farm and we used to play nighttime flashlight tag Hyde Zeke and I went out to hide while my cousin who moved a couple houses away was counting. I experienced two very bright white flashes like some of a moment and I noticed on the other side of the farm, there were cop cars driving by with flashlights, looking for something. And I stopped and wondered what's going on. Which of our house behind me, my mother calling my name, frantically calling for me. And she saw me and ran towards me and hugged me and said, where have you been? What's going on? I said, we were just playing flashlight tag. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, today I am joined by Today's American Alchemist is the American Alchemist himself.

Jesse Michaels, welcome in. Chris, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, absolutely. This is for me been really, I've been looking forward to this podcast for a long time, but we've been hanging out quite a bit too and chatting and working on different projects and consulting each other on different things for a little while now. and, you know, I've gotten my hangs in with you, which is so cool. Absolutely.

But now this is, it's almost weird because I feel like, like, we're clearly friends off the podcast, but this is more for like, for people out there. Because like it or not, people watch our videos and they're like, I get it all the time. Dude, you should have Jesse in the skiff. You know? Well, I'm honored, man. And I'm grateful to just know you as a friend. And you've been so awesome to me. And this set is so cool to see in real life.

It's kind of surreal because I've been watching it so much digitally. Yeah. And, yeah, man, I love our weird phone calls. That always lasts like two hours longer than they're supposed to. We go down these crazy rabbit holes. So, yeah, I'm grateful for you, man, and I'm happy to be here. Thanks, man. And I'm not the American Alchemist.

My guests are, but thank you. Yeah, well, today you are. Area 52 or today. Yeah, okay. Yeah, dude, you've been probably the most inspirational person in this space for creators like myself, but also for people who are looking to create and talk about this stuff. And for people who are just looking for a good story. And as you know, like a lot of my channel is based on story.

And I love telling a good story and I love when people come on here and tell great stories. but you have this amazing ability to draw good stories out of people and even more amazing, I think. And this is something I'll probably be echoed on by the audience, but you have some type of ability of getting people on camera to talk. It's really incredible. For sure. Well, thank you. Yeah. Have you ever thought about the list of people that have like been on your show and like how expensive.

that is in terms of knowledge. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. You know, sometimes I pinch myself and I'm like, oh, wow, like I've met all these amazing people and I've got, I've been able to speak to them. And I think there's something about that's kind of maybe disarming. Like I'm, I, I, you get what you see, I think with me. And I'm very, I think I'm pretty chill. You know, on the inside, I think I'm a little more intense, but at least I come off,

you know, adaptively as chill or something. And, yeah, I don't know. feel I feel really grateful and lucky. And I think I'm good at, like you, for example, you put so much thought into everything you do. And I can see that just spending time with you, you know, today and yesterday, but also from all of our interactions, the production here is just next level. And the way you talk about magic, you go so deep into magic.

And you build, like, a foundation where other people kind of take shortcuts and the merch you sell and, like, the fact that you have interns on your Discord. Like everything is so well thought out. So like I see other people, I think for who they are and I appreciate the best aspects of them. And I think that's, that helps me because they know I'm not, you know, playing some weird game of gotcha. And, you know, I kind of understand where they're coming from. And I kind of, you know, feel them out. Yeah.

That's so important. That is so important because that's, there's two ways of getting to an answer that's interesting. from someone. And one is the gotcha, like you mentioned. Right. And I feel like that's the easy route. Right. Right.

Right. Because anybody can formulate a tricky question. Yeah. But to have somebody comfortable enough for them to open up and talk about things that you didn't even know were in there. Yeah. You know, I think that takes, um, it takes more. It takes a, it takes a comfort level that clearly you foster during these interviews.

And I think that's part of why people watch your videos. you know, you learn through watching those what good conversation looks like. And that's not a tutorial you can normally just go and Google, you know. Well, that's so nice you to say. I'm horrible with compliments. But I really appreciate that, man. It means a lot. Yeah, no, for sure.

I think it's just appreciating the essence of, you know, what makes that person special. And sometimes, especially in this space, as you know, people have. a lot of issues and you know I don't know you you have to kind of glean out the you're sometimes you're panning for gold yeah you know and it's like a lot of what the person has to say doesn't feel accurate you know in their case I think sometimes like it maybe it's self-deception so like they think they're like you know 100% truthful but there's their aspects of the story that feel just off and I think you can um emphasize the part of the that are of use to the outside world,

and then sometimes rhetorically even get at, you know, the parts that don't make sense or whatever. And you can do that through just friendly interaction. And you don't have to be combative, and you don't have to actually have them kind of hate you forever. And then that also gets you closer to the truth. And then they probably feel a little less guilty or better or whatever because they know that was like a more honest interaction,

you know, than they maybe generally have or whatever. Yeah, it's not stirring in their brain at night. Like they feel good about that conversation. conversation. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's a good point. You know, especially like you said in this topic, this can be a very divisive topic and sort of polarizing to speak about. Not only, not only vis-a-vis the audience, but also with the guest him or herself, the different ontologies that people hold dear to them, you know, is a tricky place to navigate. Yeah, I think. I think violence occurs next to the sacred or next to the truth. And so you think of science and you could couch UFOs within science because it's like empirical inquiry into the natural world as, you know, transcending politics. It's trans political. And in fact, it's the most

political. It's the most, I mean, if you look at like the UFO world, it's like just absurd, like sort of infighting. And it's because it's this like kind of religious dogmatic thing for a lot of the people kind of involved. And I think it's unfortunate because I think, you know, it should just be this kind of personal quest ultimately. And it doesn't really matter what anybody else says. Like, it doesn't at all. And, and fixating on any of this stuff. Like, I think the best in your show is amazing, amazing at this too. The best, I think, media in the space is simply expository. It's just like, you know, trying to glean out, you know, the most authentic version of whatever the other person's trying to say and then parapetetically, you know, trying to approximate truth over the course of

many guests. And I don't know if you feel like this, but like maybe since starting Area 52, do you feel like you're a little bit closer to some semblance of truth? And maybe it's a gestalt sense of truth. And it's not like a file you could, you know, give somebody. But do you feel kind of closer to the reality of this subject? Or do you feel like it's just as confusing as when you started. Definitely, I wouldn't say just as confusing. There's more, I have more access to more information now, which leads me to having sort of more niche and deeper questions about the subject matter.

But all in all, I do feel like the more that I lean into this, the more that I realize that the answers are usually found within. And that seems to be the overarching sort of theme of all of this. Like when you get to the end of nuts and bolts, what are you left with? You're left with consciousness. You're left with, you know, and ESP. What is that? Oh, we go back to like this quantum field. Oh, we're all one. And so it always comes back to that for me. Yes. And I think in that, in that regards, I did, I have learned a lot because it has set me down some like paths where I've, you know, had some self-discovery. And for that I'm thankful. But in terms of am I,

do I feel like I'm closer to, you know, maybe the nuts and bolt side? Hard to say. Hard to say it feels like it, but that might just be an illusion. Sure. Because I have more information, but, and yet I've still not seen a UFO in front of me with aliens, right? So, but somehow I feel closer.

Yeah. I don't know. Well, I think often the, uh, kind of little known dirty, dirty little secret of this space is like, most of the people in it have kind of autobiographical reasons for being in it.

And one of my favorite, uh, Meno dialogues in Plato and it's a, all knowledge is recollection. And it actually involves, I think, it's like, Socrates and Phadris. And they're like, they're showing that like a slave at the time, because this is ancient Greece,

knows how to like draw a triangle. And it's purely primordial knowledge because, you know, he's gotten no kind of formal tutoring or whatever. And there's something about this space because you are, uh, nobody has the formal education. It's so confusing. Yeah.

And, um, so there's no kind of, you know, formal credentialed pathway that you can there's no curriculum right that you really have to like trust your kind of internal barometer and you have to trust your instincts and that's like that's a very important sensor and i think the way you make the sensor better is actually then by distrusting your instincts it's this like constant kind of recursive loop of also being like i could be entirely

wrong and down the wrong path yeah um but it's a i think it that kind of uh mental gymnastic process is is is healthy for anybody to engage in yeah Yeah, definitely healthy, but definitely also tricky if you're not prepared for it because it could send you down some, you know, dark pathways. For sure. You know, I often think that like this, because this whole subject matter is anomalous, right, in terms of what reality is, this is an outlier. It's an anomaly that we're studying, right? Just kind of like if you were doing a science experiment and an anomaly occurred, I mean, there's two options there. You can study the anomaly or ignore the anomaly, call it an anomaly because it's a anomaly.

doesn't fit the model and move on. Yeah. And we, because we choose to focus on the anomaly, yeah, innately cannot dismiss any other anomaly. Yeah. And so we're forced to intake these sometimes ludicrous realities and, and actually try and make them fit somehow. And sometimes we get a piece from them that fits.

And then the other part's just completely insane. You know, I've, I've heard stories of Dan Buresh. Mm-hmm. and that I was like, what are you talking about, Jayrod? Yep. And then I get Danny Shee in,

and he's like, well, there was an alien in S4 and answering questions. And I'm like, God, do I have to go watch J.Rod again? Do I have to,

I guess, you know? And does that open the door for Bob again? And like, you know, like there's all these. So we have to study these anomalies. Totally. And it can kind of drive you a little nutty sometimes.

A little nutty. Dan Burish is a great example because we were with your good friend, my new friend, Luigi last. night he's making this amazing project gravitar and like you have to think right like he has all this amazing evidence that the bob lazar stuff you know he's probably at area 51 you know at s4 and so that the dan berish story involves s4 involves area 51 he gets recruited by edward teller to study at

stony brook you know he's this like microscopy expert at unlv or whatever and so it has the exact same pattern as the Lazar story. And so I think it's an epistemological paradigm shift studying this stuff. It's not just a scientific paradigm shift. And the reason I say that is because if you look at Francis Bacon and like the advent of science itself, it always involves a priori skepticism. You have to go into an experiment with the null hypothesis. And the null hypothesis is that the experiment is going to show nothing that it's wrong. The reality as we know it is correct. And with this topic, and I think actually probably healthier thinking, points more towards like Bayesian thought or reasoning, which Danny Sheehan is an expert at and always likes to talk about. He talks about, you know, Thomas Bay is this English statistician from the 18th century.

And that's more like, no, be open to everything. Be open to everything. And don't discount wholesale discount anything. And catalog everything is extremely low probability. and then build corroboration as you see, you know, okay, Balmazar, I don't know, I'm not so sure. Dan Barish, wow, pattern matches the same way. Oh, Danny Sheehan's telling the story, and he's broken all these other incredibly important American conspiracies. Okay, you know, maybe there's something here.

So I think that's actually a healthier way of thinking, but it's not really, you say it's scientific, but it's not the way most scientists think. And it takes a ton of patience. Yeah. Most people get really frustrated in this space when they don't have the answer they're seeking in the amount of time that they've been seeking it. Whether that's 30, 40 years, or whether that's one year, whatever it is, like, you can sense people's frustration with, you know, trust me, bro, and all this stuff. And the way that I see it is that, like, it's all interesting. Yeah. True or not.

Yes, it makes for an interesting story. It's fun to find those puzzle pieces and sort of, you know, connect them together and be like, oh, that kind of fits if you, I guess if you force it a little bit, a kind of. kind of fits in this positive. It kind of looks like something now. And like, you know, that's, that's a, that's a fun exercise to do. And I, like, I agree. I think it is healthy. But it's hard.

It's hard. But I also think it leads to, and I've probably said this ad nauseum on other podcasts, but it leads to breakthroughs. Anomalies always lead to the next, like the next theory better encapsulates the anomaly than the current theory, whether it's black body radiation before the quantum revolution or, you know, the orbit of mercury. Like you have so many cases where like you have an effect. You can't turn the effect into math and you can't make it repeatable.

It does not mean the effect doesn't exist. Correct. You could say it doesn't exist. It's an anomaly. It's an anomaly. And that's what a UFO is. And so I'm so excited because I think if you actually like the more historically predictable thing to say is that we are probably going to have some working theory of what UFOs

involve in the future. And so it's just epic to try to be at the forefront of that. Yeah, definitely. And it's exciting to think which theory that will end up being. Yes. Or, you know, will it be a brand new theory or maybe a mashup of all of them? Like, who knows? It's just... While maintaining humility that theories are the maps and there's some underlying territory and the map is never the territory. Yeah. So the theory is never going to be the end of history. And if you think about it, like since Liebnitz and Newton, you know, over the last, you know, 400 years, the way we've... modeled our reality is vector calculus. And so like everything has to,

if it's not turned into vector calculus, it's not real. You know, parapsychology is not real. UFOs are not real. All these things are not real. And then like, you know, you have a few drinks with like,

you know, an academic and they're like, oh, there's actually like a lot of data around that. We just don't really know how to like make it repeatable or turn it into math. And so that's because of these

a priori heuristics that we have around vector. or calculus or whatever. And maybe in the future it's like, you know, you have these Wolfram guys where it's like a computational understanding of the universe. Or maybe it's like Plato comes back. And it's like we're in the cave and the guy. Who knows? But they're all just mental models. And it's really hard. It's the problem of the eye seeing the eye. Like it's very hard to, you can't really audit your own measurement sensor, you know? Right. It's like, it's ultimately this like kind of epistemic impasse. Yeah. Yeah. I almost like to think that it might be,

something that Douglas Adams would dream up. And it's just like the dolphins are the most intelligent species in the universe or the second most. And they just leave the planet. Thanks for all the fish. Right. You know, some silly, you know, thing because at the end of the day, I mean, even this whole subject matter is kind of silly. I say that a lot. I'm like, this is a silly.

Look at where we're sitting. We're in a skip. This is silly and insane. We're kind of playing dress up right now. But talking about, you know, some of the most important things. in human history. Right. But also at the same time, I think levity sort of adds, I don't know, it just makes it, makes

it palatable. Totally. You know, because you can't spend your days in a dark basement surrounded by files and not come out of it, you know, a normal person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to be able to add levity, to laugh a little bit at what we're doing and to, you know, find interesting things and definitely be like the hard-nosed, you know, I need to figure this out and all this. But at the end of the day, kind of throw it up in the air and be like,

yeah, but what if it's also, I don't know, you know, tall bean-looking people. Who cares? Yeah. It's fun. And not be overly zealous. Like, you and Luigi updated a lot of my, I kind of thought that the Bob Lazar stuff. Well, I still think it might be somewhat of a limited hangout and pushed by the CIA or whatever. But I was unsure that he even worked at Area 51. Yeah. And now I'm pretty sure he did because of you and Luigi. And at that point, it's like the most interesting thing in the world. Okay, so what did he see and like how much of what he saw was true and how much of what he worked on was true? And so I think it requires like, like, you know, at first meeting you, I'm like, this guy's a magician.

Like, what is he going to teach me about Bob Lazar? He taught me a whole lot. And you honestly, even in this trip, like you know so much. And it's a different vector of knowledge often than like what I'm interested in. on like sort of the more science nutton bolt side or whatever. And it's so cool. So, yeah, I think it also requires just a lot of humility and kind of a team effort vibe as well. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. And especially, I mean, while we're talking about Bob as well, I think one of the most important factors. And I've said this, you know, when I made the sort of interview with Luigi about Cravator, I'd said this too. but knowing Bob, and I don't feel like I know him at all, but I feel like I've seen sides of him that people haven't seen because of the videos that I was shown and the conversations that I've actually had with Bob.

Character, for me, is an important thing. And I'm like yourself, I think a pretty good judge of it when it comes to, you know, bullshit meter. And I'm sure a lot of people say that. And I know a lot of people say that. I think you're an extremely good judge of it. And I think it comes from your magic background as well. Yeah, potentially, yeah.

And I think that that there are certain, they're just, there's certain people who you can look in the eye and, you know, they can tell you something and you go, you know, like, I don't know. Like there's, I've had people sat across from me that I don't believe everything they've said, you know, and I'll indulge them and that's fine. But Bob, I don't know. I don't get that. I don't, I don't get that at all. I think he's just saying his truth. That's what it seems like. And now this raises the question of,

is his truth tampered with? Right. Exactly. Right. And the beauty of Bob is that he will say, yeah, it's possible. Exactly. You know?

And that's why I'm like, that's one of the, this is one of the most important cases, I think, in all of uphology, because point me to another experiencer or another whistleblower who doesn't have their own

opinion about what they think is going on. Yep. Or who doesn't, you know, expound upon rumors or sit there and try to think of like some scenarios like, oh yeah, well, maybe they're doing this or maybe they're from this planet. Or like, he has done of that. Yeah. There's never speculation with this guy. And it's, you know, Janlon Heineck, you know, legendary astronomer, leader of

Blue Book. He had his, you know, different ranking, you know, close encounters with the first, second, and third kind, third kind being most famous where it's like you're interacting with the being itself, you could say Bob was ours, uh, close encounter of the fourth kind, because the third kind is obviously fascinating. It's kind of very in your face, but it's very ephemeral. And it's usually retrieved through hypnotic regression or at best you have these shards of memories because it, so the person interacts with the experience just like, uh, anybody would experience, would experience anything traumatic where it's sort of, you know, slightly broken. Um, and in this case,

The guy is talking about a discrete location working on a craft that might still be at that location or, you know, might have been moved somewhere and maybe we could figure out where that is. And we have technology that we can repeatedly use. And so like that that's like, and he's alive, the witness. And so, yeah, I agree. It's in a category of its own. And it's, I'm so pumped about what Luigi's doing. I hope you get to do cool stuff with Bob. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm excited to see how that kind of wave. function collapses, so to speak. Sure, exactly. Same here. Same here. But now I want to transition over into, I want to transition over into some experiences that you've had.

Okay. You know, I told you before the podcast, like, do you mind if I ask you about these, you know, these, these experience you had, you were totally fine with it. So this isn't like a, gosh, a moment. Tell me about the UFOs. Jesse, where are they hiding them? You had multiple experiences. You've been open with them, but I kind of want to catalog.

them here for, you know, someone who doesn't have to watch, you know, all the little pieces and fit them together. Let's talk about the things that you've seen. Yeah. Yeah. So I think three, I've seen a decent number of UFOs, honestly, and it might be something where because I'm interested in the topic, like I'm, you know, more aware or something, I don't know. I can't, it's sort of hard to explain. But the three that I think are probably the most noteworthy on your podcast. Number one was I had just moved to Laurel. Canyon and so Laurel Canyon's actually kind of a trippy place unto itself i don't know if you're familiar with the history but it has an amazing music history so um you know the mamas and the papas

uh were there uh jimmy hendricks i think lived there uh crosbie stills nash the who's who of like 60s 70s era you know classic rock um and it just has that vibe of like like the muses are around or something um and you know all these kind of bohemian like interesting architecture and it's it's great i love it and i had just moved there and and the pandemic had just hit and there was something very trippy about the pandemic as well where like you're at home and you know you all of a sudden you find yourself with like not that at least i did i found myself with not as you know more time on my hands not as much to do and you start to think about like more interesting ontological questions and so um i was uh with a woman oh i was kind of starting to

at the time. And she actually lived in Laurel Canyon as well. And we were going to walk. And this was like, I don't know, like an hour into the walk or something, aliens come up. And she was like, you know, do you believe in aliens? I was like, yeah, actually, I'm kind of, I'm kind of into aliens. It's like an interest of mine. At the time, it was a, it was a pretty serious interest of mine, but not as deep as I'd say now. It is. Previous to any YouTube. Yeah. Okay. Previous to any YouTube. So I was investing out of Peter Thiel's family office. That was my job. And, you know, I had a serious interest in the UFO thing. But like, yeah, I never thought it would like turn into like, you know, me like interviewing a ton of people about it or anything like that. And we're walking

and I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm kind of into aliens. And then, and then I say, half jokingly, I go, I'd love to meet an alien. And then she goes, it'll happen when you stop looking for it. And as she says that we're walking by a guy who has a metal detector. And this is like sunset and Laurel Canyon. And he's like looking for something. So it's like this bizarre externalization of our conversations, you know, happening in reality. Like it doesn't make any sense. And this could be survivorship bias of like me remembering that because that's what we said. It's I don't know. But it notably weird, right? And we walk by this guy and a few moments, you know, you know, pass. And we, We hit this little clearing.

This is on Lookout Mountain in Laurel Canyon for anybody that knows Laurel Canyon. And there's a little clearing and it's like this school bus shaped rectangle thing. Long like long like this. And it's and it's just hovering like kind of right above the treetops like maybe 50 feet-ish. And it just goes right over the tree tops. How far away from you? Like 50 feet ish or 60 feet or something. Like, not that high at all.

Any features? Any notable features on this craft? So, like, I'm afraid that, like, I'll botch the description of it. Try. Like, I want to say, like, like, like, like, like, it looked like a flying car. That's how weird. Shape of a car? Shape, well, more like a school bus because it was so long.

It was rectangular. It was rectangular. It was rectangular. It was like tapered at the ends. It was not. tapered at the ends. No. Honestly, I was so weird because it didn't look at all like what a flying saucer would, you know, or like, you know, anything that I'd ever. You saw it from underneath then. Yes. Was the underside a different color than the sides of it? No. It all kind of like this

metallic gray. And it did look like there were like components underneath it. But they didn't, to me, it wasn't clear like what purpose. You weren't looking at a muffler or an exhaust or anything like that. No, no. And there was, like, there was some sound, but it almost felt like a humming thing. Like, it didn't seem like this, like, definitely not worthy of, like, the exhaust necessary in a chemical combustion context to, like, keep that amount of mass in the sky. And then she said, so that it, like, floats over the tree top. And we're both just like, what the fuck is that? And I actually just actually DMed her on Instagram and sent her a video because it was this was a I'll send I'll I'll I'll I'll play this for you after the show or maybe you can even play it.

Yeah, we'll put it in. Because it was like the closest thing to what I had seen. Okay. And I don't know if this video is fake or real or what it is. But it looked and she she responded being like, yeah, that looks exactly like what we saw. Cool. So, you know, but I, yeah. And then she said kept going and then it vertically descended.

like, you know, some ways off. And I didn't see that. Into the treetop. Into the tree top. Into the forest? Was this like a wooded area? Yeah. Lurbanes is extremely wooded.

And so, yeah. No houses or businesses or anything like that. No, that's a weird thing. It's like very residential. There are houses. So I don't know what that means as far as where it landed or. Broad daylight. No, it was night.

It was late. It was sunset-ish, like a little after sunset. Okay. So you clearly see. It was dark, though. Yeah. Do you have any regrets not pulling your phone out? I'll tell you about the other couple of times I've seen UFOs,

and I didn't in those cases either. And actually, in the next case, that was like the most, like long duration. And whenever I've seen a UFO, I always feel like this is kind of sacred, and I don't know, I don't even feel like I should. It feels like sacrilegious. And I know that sounds insane.

It's just so funny because, like, I bet the aliens are like, What is he waiting for? He's your phone out. You wanted to see us? Let's go. What are you doing? That's true.

Yeah. Okay. Can you walk us through? I want to sit on this one for a second because I'm trying to imagine myself, and I'm sure the audience is the same right now. We're trying to imagine ourselves. Like, what would you do? You walk into the woods with somebody you kind of just started to get to know and you see this thing.

Does your heart skip? Do you, is there any part of you that is frightened? Is this a calm interaction or is this just you trying to make sense sort of prosaically of this object the whole time? I was super excited. Because I'm, I don't know, I'm like an intense sort of truth seeker or whatever. And especially initially in the UFO thing, you're like, you look at the whole subject and you're like, this is kind of quacky and insane. And then you build this like probability thing where, you know, even like I think it's like Richard Dock. you know, the kind of the priest, the high priest of the citadel that is like modern scientific skepticism or whatever.

Like he has some quote, and I'm paraphrasing here, where it's like the probability something, it's like the multiplication of like the probabilities of something being true and the implications of it being true is like how much you should study the thing. So I think it's like 5% aliens. You should be spending a lot of time on aliens because like that's the implications are like, you know, that part. of the equation is so high. Yeah. So, you know, at the time, I was really oscillating around, like, you know, how serious is this whole world is so quacky. And so every time I've had a firsthand experience, it's just like, wow, this is a, to

me, I mean, there's so many people that the modern, I think, paradigm is don't trust your eyes. It's like you need some sensor data. It's like the Galileo Project, you know, Avi Loeb at Harvard. It's like you need, like, some objective scientific sensor. I think your eyes are all you have. have. And, like, actually, you know, an abstract scientific measurement going through your eyes should, you know, not necessarily be more trustworthy. Somebody else, by the way, is reporting to you

who has more credentials or something. But, like, you're supposed to trust that more than, like, a thing you saw. Like, that doesn't really make sense. And yeah, you should be, like, you know, wary of, like, maybe somebody put a flare up or like, you know, I went to this, you went on a cruise for, like, C-5 or something. Yeah, you should be skeptical, you know. Think about all, you're a magician. You should think about all the ways in which, you know, that could have been orchestrated. But, yeah, but we can, you know, I can go down that road all day with everything. And I explained this to you last night.

As a magician, it's our job to come up with a method to an effect. So if you give me an effect as a magician, I can give you a method. It's not that I go, well, I guess there's no methods. I guess it is an alien. No, I can give you a method for every single citing ever in the context of a magic trick. Absolutely. Using psychology and, you know, memory techniques and all, all types of things, right? So I would never apply. I would always do it in my own head and be like, okay, but then I would weigh that against, oh, what was the point of that? What was the point of lying to me about this, right? Yeah. Or, yeah, so, so I think you are right. I think there is like validity to someone's own sighting. And if not just for that immediate recognition, but for how that might. have changed you. Yeah.

Do you see that event having anything to do with the journey you're on today? That's a great question. I think, yeah, that in combination with the next sighting, which was like, I don't know, six months-ish after that night, six to nine months. Yeah, so I was in Silver Lake with a buddy who actually invests with me and is pretty prominent investor. And actually is a complete like materialist atheist. like doesn't believe in any of this stuff and i did i was just starting to like you know try to

convince him that like maybe there's a there there but yeah very skeptical like is a believer in like david hume and noem chomsky and like you know kind of very rash hyper rationalist guy and um and so he we went surfing that day and we were back at his place and it was a week and it was like saturday or sunday and we are uh doing holotropic breath work because i i'd been into it at the time and i I think it's a really cool, yeah, I don't know if you're familiar with. I know John Mack, you know, was teaching that to a lot of the abductees as well to get them to try and calm down during these abductions so that they could recall. Yep. Yeah, exactly.

And it's an amazing technique. It was developed by Stanislav Groff, who's this Hungarian, I guess, psychiatrist, I think. And it involves, like, hyper oxygenation. So just, like, breathing a lot and rapidly, like, you know, almost like hyper, like intentional hyperventilation or something. And, you know, actually, I think the goal is like an hour in, you know, you're out of body. You out of body. You have like a DMT, like an adogenous DMT release or something. But we were five minutes into our, you know, breathwork.

And your hands can sometimes claim up and his did. And so we had to stop for a second. And as soon as we stop, we look up and we see two silvery orbs. And one's hovering above him. One's hovering above me. And they're both sort of like. bobbing just not they don't look at all like you know a drone they're way too high uh to be drones they're definitely not planes and uh he then looks to me and where i i think i go like what the

f is that and he looks to me and he goes um oh i think that might be that secret locky deck or something and then uh you know a second goes by he looks back at me and he goes dude that those are not from here and especially i think with the holotropic thing You know, I think, again, a debunker would say... You're a little lightheaded. Sure. Yeah, don't trust your eyes, especially if you're in an altered state and maybe it didn't take an hour for you guys to get in an altered state.

It took five minutes or whatever. But I would say, you know, like that stuff probably widens the doors of your perception. And maybe you are seeing a thing that exists in fundamental reality. But, you know, actually, Rick Strassman, you know, wrote DMT, the spirit molecule. He talks about DMT as like, it's like night vision. It's like another sensor modality. And I'm not saying, you know, who knows if DMT was released? It probably was not.

But I think the two things that are repeatable in the UFO world, if you are looking at this scientifically and looking for repeatability, I think it's consciousness and nuclear. And so I think to me, that points towards us being in sort of a low-level simulation. And I don't know what these UFOs are. Maybe they're kind of, you know, Envoy von Neumann replicators and you see a little node light up. And it's around, you know, some sort of conflict a la la the three body problem or, you know, somebody's experimenting with the scientific thing that like that, you know, they're not quite ready for yet or whatever. Maybe you each had your own sort of UFO that you were assigned to. Maybe. And you raised some red flag and they both came to see what was going on.

Well, it was, it was interesting that one was kind of bobbing. There were two. Yeah. And they were kind of bobbing up. And it's hard to say whether one was directly above me. Like, how's your human doing? I don't know. They're both kind of just laying there out of breath.

Right, right, right, right. Yeah, I mean, you get into all sorts of thought experiments of, like, where does thought come from? And, you know, who knows? So you're saying after that event, that was more convincing with that sighting, would you say, than the previous one? More convincing that that was not from here? Maybe insofar as it was. It was because it may be a little more cut and dry with the holotropic breathwork stuff. Yeah, but also, I mean, the previous one, you know, you had said, I want to see an alien, I want to be an alien.

Yeah. And then she says something amazing, which I think is the best advice. I agree. And with everything, right? You'll see it when you stop looking. Yes. You know, for you to see it right after that moment, I think has merit too. I agree.

I agree. And I think that, again, that's often. Okay, I've spoken with a prominent journalist who has went on a very big podcast. I just don't want to identify this guy with that. But he basically had, like, he told, like, everybody knows who this guy is. Yeah, I know who you're talking about. Okay. Yeah, you probably, yeah, there you go.

You're good. And, like, he told the UFO story. And he had to leave the details out of, like, the fact that he went searching. Like, he kind of, like, had a question going into the, you know, UFO experience and that the UFO resolved his experience. And so like often there's there are little details left out of UFO experiences that the person thinks will marginalize it. And they have to do with the fact that the UFO thing is like extremely synchronistic. Like it makes them sound slightly schizo or something. And they'll always leave that part out. And then if you

think about the UFO is kind of just one class of a synchronicity, then like your whole life is actually often like that if you take notice, if you take note of the syncreticities. And like this is, I think it's a very common thing. You know, Carl Jung wrote a book about it. And there are plenty of people who are extremely receptive to these sorts of things. And so yeah, it's unfortunate with the UFO thing where we, because it's looked at as this possibly, you know, interesting propulsion breakthrough in, you know, in science or whatever, we have to somehow discard those very real facts around them. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's much like if you look at Betty and Barney Hill, they kind of went through the same thing with the testimony that Betty had.

On one hand, if you look at the testimony that was given to the Air Force, it was very cut and dry, nuts and bolts. Here's the time. Here's the elevation. Here's the rotation. Here's the lights, the colors, the speed. You know, the side, all the sort of like data points. Yep. And then over here,

it was, you know, it froze me and there's the beings and I connected with them and like all that was left out of the Air Force thing, right? Because I think, um, the story is going to change based on who it is you're talking to. And so if you're definitely speaking to someone who you think, who you believe isn't ready for such information, then you're going to omit that. And so in today's landscape, I think well, conversations like these are really healthy because it does allow people. And I read the comments a lot where there's, I'm sure you get them to and messages of people like, I've never told anyone this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they suddenly feel like it's okay to open up about their

experience. It's just so beautiful. Yes. But you're right in the context of the scientific review, those things we feel the need to have to omit them, even though there might be actual science behind them. Yeah. They just feel a little too far removed from like the conventional data. Totally. Well, what I would say is if there is an intelligence on the other side that wants to be known, but wants to be known by the right nodes, distribution nodes on our side, that you should actually be extremely transparent and candid,

and then just let the chips fall where they may. I'll give you an example, like, I could have artificially come up with descriptions around that school bus. Like, I actually felt a little, like, insecure. I was like, I don't really remember, man, you know? But, like, it's, I think whatever that is, and I believe there is,

is a non-human intelligence. I think they could fully audit everything going on inside of you. And so you just have to be extremely brutally honest. There's in the telepathy tapes, one of my favorite quotes, I don't remember which kid says this, says, you don't get my powers if you lie. Yeah, John Paul, isn't it? John Paul, maybe John, but that would make sense.

John Paul or was it the other? Is it Houston? Houston. It might be Houston, actually. Yeah. And I think that's so beautiful. And I think it's actually around the parapsychology stuff, too, which points to this, you know,

these random event generator experiments where you take this binary computer, it's tied to something that is supposedly random in quantum mechanics. So radioactive isotope decay or photon bouncing around a box, you know, whatever. And a person can, in a statistically significant way, skew the output towards ones or zeros. It's supposed to be this perfect digital coin flip. And it seems like the data kind of cuts against that, which points to us sort of rendering our reality. And if you talk to people who are involved, in these experiments. They often say the more heart-centered and honest, I feel,

and internally aligned, I feel, the more of a skewing effect you can get. And if you, if you extrapolate that outwards, it's really your like kind of mind-matter effect in reality itself. Like, your ability to progress through the world that we're in is actually dependent on your sort of internal harmonization and your ability to, you know,

get through blocks yourself and just be like fully, you know, candid. You can take a practical example to that too. Is it easier to get somewhere if you work together or work against each other? Yeah. You know, it's a very dumbed down example. But of course, cooperation and in helping each other out and looking out for each other is going to yield a better result. Right.

So if you translate that into even like some type of like quantum interface that you might have, well, leading with the heart should yield a better result than being combative or skeptic or whatever that is. So naturally, I think it's like going with the current instead of against it. Totally. I agree. You know, you look at a lot of religious pictures. It always, I always, that's always stood out to me too. You see these beaming hearts. It's always these hearts with like this golden light around it, right?

And these angels are just like emanating this love. It's always like this sort of care bear energy of like, it's all love. It's all good. It's all love. And like love seems to be like that heart-centered emotion. And it's always coming from the sky. It's always, you know what I mean? And so, you know, perhaps that was their way of, like, trying to communicate to us that, hey, that's the key.

And if the more we look into this, the more we're seeing that, you know, it might not be the only key, but it seems to be the one that is the easiest to access and the one that is the most productive. Yeah, I think it really is. And, you know, we were just talking about this book, Transurfing Reality. And I think his name is Vladimir Zeeland. and it's it's all about sort of you know this is really interesting model of like time travel and you have these various lifelines and you interact with these sort of energy systems called pendulums which feed off of your energy and you can't avoid the pendulums altogether but you have to like pick the good pendulums and the whole thing exists in its own idiosyncratic world and it involves a lot of kind of jargon and it's very interesting but like the fundamental thing as far as being able to kind of manifest what you want in life is being heart-sincratic world. center, heart centered and operating from the heart. And I think that is very fundamental and very important. It's easier said than done. It's something you can't fake. You know, it's kind of, you can't talk about it in the abstract and then not do it and somehow achieve a result. You know,

it's, it's, it's, yeah, it is or it isn't. And there is still like this objective, there has to still be this objective view of consensus reality on some level. Of course. But it makes you think, like, how you can affect it on a macro scale if we all came together and did something. thing, right? Because because you can change a one into a zero. Yeah. And that might over the long run end up getting you that success you wanted or that relationship or whatever that is in life, that little manifesting that you've been sort of fine-tuning and getting to and that might just appear. But what does that look like on a large scale? Yeah. You know, like if we all got together and just decided, hey, let's make one of these things appear and then we just congened out of nothing

and it just kind of appears, right? Like, is that possible considering the sort of micro scale that we have now of turning these ones into zeros. What does that look like? Right. Well, you, I mean, this brings up all these epistemological questions of what is reality itself. There's like a concept, you know, called an egregor, like a consensus thought form. And like is everything a consensus thought form? And you can just make things happen and things are, things are only existing because all of us are thinking about it. And there's no way to disprove that. I do think in the case of the random event generator thing, it's like you, uh, healing. yourself and manifesting what you want in your life is contagious. And so I think that should be your kind of prime directive versus trying to kind of get everybody together and like summon a thing. Of course. The latter feels like, you know, kind of a perversion of what. But what does that look like when we're all on the same page? Like what do you think, you know, do you often like think like, what could we achieve? Like if we did, like, if you could have one person turn some ones and zeros, okay,

or like there's that famous plant experiment where they had the plant in the middle of the, or in the corner of the room, you know this one, and they shine, they shine a light in the room. And basically, the light would shine, uh, it was in one corner. And it was on a random sort of generator where the light would shine randomly into one of the corners. Right. And so it should be 25%. But when they introduced a plant in the corner, it went more towards the plant. Like the plant needed to survive. The universe felt that and it wanted to thrive. That's fascinating. And it changed the randomness a little bit, just changed a few ones into zeros so that the plant needed to survive. So that plant would have a better chance of surviving.

That's so fascinating because we think of heliotropi is, you know, a plant growing towards the sun, but you don't think about it as the, you know, the opposite where this seemingly unconscious digital thing, you know, or not digital, but, you know, whatever, you know, light, mechanical thing is actually attracted to the plant itself. That's amazing. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah, and it's more about, like, it makes you question, what's the fundamental law there?

What is happening? Is it is it the plant needing to survive or is it the universe itself, you know, surviving through the plant? Yep. And saying, you know, this is part of me and I need that to grow. Well, yeah. I mean, I think we are, we don't see reality. I think we render reality. And so you have like this guy, Donald Hoffman talking about how we don't, we don't see like, you know, electromagnetic waves, right?

Like we'll see like the RBG spectrum and we iconize everything we see into like a table or the microcontrad. microphone or you know, whatever. And I think that could apply to everything we see. And, and if you actually look at like the Roger Penrose, you know, this is his physicist who, you know, he worked on a bunch of stuff with hawking and black holes. And then, and then he started getting into consciousness. And I think he's very interesting. I don't know if it's correct. And I think way too many people kind of assume everything this anesthesiologist that works with him, Stuart Hammerov says, is like, you know, exactly how consciousness works i think it's way too reductionist and physicalist so i'll caveat it with that but i think as a mental model it's very interesting as to how consciousness works and it's called orchestrated objective

reduction and it answers the question of why do we not see probabilistic reality so just as i iconize the you know r bg you know right electromagnetic waves why do i not see quantum probabilities why do i see relative relativistic macroscopic discrete reality i just see one chris ramsi it's not this like schrodinger like wave you know of many possibilities he's Chris Ramsey. Yeah. And I think it points to the fact that we are rendering reality internally. Sure.

That wave function collapse actually occurs within the brain. And so if that's the case, then like, I am rendering something that is different. My map inside my head is different than the territory. And the random event generator might not actually be explained by me, you know, emitting some sort of photon or something. You know, some, some like, you know, unobtainium particle or whatever that, like, you know, science hasn't discovered yet to affect the thing in the material world. But it actually just shows that maybe the whole material world is sort of somewhat rendered inside of me. Yeah, not just you. Not me.

Obviously, everybody. Because I see the same thing you see. That's right. And then, and then there's some sort of consensus collapsing function between all of us. Yeah, no, you can't be, this ends in solipsism if it's just a single person or whatever. But, yeah, no, there's some sort of, like, consensus then that, like, you know, reduces that on a macroscopic. Yeah, so how do you, that's what's saying is, like, what happens when we, when we start affecting that, you know, rather than individually when we have these little goals? Because what if I want to manifest, you know, something and you want to manifest the opposite?

Like, who wins? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So, like, what does that look like when you get multiple people manifesting or, you know, sort of collapsing these wave functions together? Yeah. you know, how big of a change can you create? How big of a sort of, you know, thing can you, can you just make appear? Like, what is the limit to that?

I think that's really exciting. I think so, too. I think so, too. And I think we're living in a kind of, you know, an axial age, so to speak, of, like, former meaning structures are just, like, not as charismatic as they, like, organized religion is in, you know, decline. And then science itself feels like it's sort of slowing down. Yeah, stagnant. It's stagnant. And so it feels like we're actually on the verge of like a really a cool paradigm shift.

And often this occurs not at the peaks of civilization, but at the trough. So like the decline of Rome is when Christianity really took off. And, you know, what's in store for us next as far as a meaning system that makes sense in like a capitalist world of high growth and high fertility, you know, across the Western world and, you know, other parts of the world. Yeah, maybe it may, maybe it doesn't make sense for other parts of the world, actually. But to the extent it makes sense in the Western world context, it's starting to not make as much sense. And so you grow up in this context. And like you have like wage stagnation, you know, like, you know, the manufacturing base of like the Western world sort of being outsourced. And you have this like agency outsourcing.

Like all of the tech is like kind of dystopian and not super charismatic. It's all in the world of bits and not the world of Adams. Like if you look at like any sort of urban, you know, environment, it looks the exact same as it did in the 70s or whatever. So how do you grow up in that. environment and think that, you know, and not be like extremely nihilistic while, uh, your de facto religion is the Richard Dawkins, Neil deGrasse Tyson thing of like, this is just a happy, you're, you're, you're a happy accident. How do you move on in that? And so, uh, you need, you need something else. And you, just because you need it doesn't mean it, you can come up with

something in a contrived way. But I do think earnestly searching in these areas in these sort of like bizarro anomaly space or whatever and then trying to connect that to ancient religions and science itself is like, you know, probably a worthy pursuit in this kind of macro context. Yep. I don't like using, I don't like using the simulation word because it feels like a video game. I don't think it's a video game at all. No, well, that's the nihilistic version of the simulation. But there's like a platonic extremely meaningful version of the simulation. Where it's like what's outside of the simulation, like level up to the thing. Yeah. There's something aspirational about it. Yeah, exactly. And, and, but you know, you look back and, and just the

idea of everything is mental is exactly that is like everything is in your head nothing actually exists nothing is there without the observer without consciousness nothing exists consciousness is the fundamental sort of thing that we experience and it's what makes physical our physical reality real thing um you know but i feel like we're just on um a really complicated trajectory to rediscovering what we already know in some sense yeah And but I think it's healthy because I think we got to a point where we weren't satisfied with the answers because we have new instruments to sort of measure reality that we say, well, we have these new instruments. It's our duty to take these instruments and, you know, pin them up against these theories that we've had forever. And now it's time to question. It's a very brave thing to do and to, you know, emancipate from religion like that like we did. It's, it takes a lot of guts and a lot of people, you know, got burned at the stake for stuff like that. But all in all, it's a very brave thing to do and to, you know, it's a mansepacep. It's so fun and interesting to see that all these instruments and everything else as we got further away are leading us back to what seemingly we already knew. You know, and it's very, very, very cool to understand that.

And some people find that very frustrating because they don't want to go back because they think like, oh, no, we've gone away from that. But it's just such a beautiful full circle moment that we get to do that with these modern instruments and then sort of find peace there and be like, oh, yeah, we're good again, you know? Yeah, totally. And a lot of scientists get sort of mystical, I think, at the end of their tenure or even, you know, some great accomplishment. And they say, you know, it just leads you to God. One of my favorite philosophers is this turn of the century, turn of the 19th century, Austrian philosopher named Rudolf Steiner. And he has this model of a U. And at the, you know, left top of the U, you are in communion with God. And then you have the classic kind of, you know, the fall of man. Yeah. And then, you know, at the bottom of the U, it could be like, you know, kind of, you know, kind of. And Enlightenment era, you know, Nietzsche proclaiming God, God is dead. And then, you know, on the right top of the U, you have reconmenian with God, but by our own, you know, volition and free will. And I always found that to be an interesting sort of model. Yeah. And you're describing an arc, you know, and what good story doesn't have an arc. You know, so when I think of a lot of people that

have, you know, gone through, hey, they were raised religious, they've become atheist, and now they've stayed there. Well, that's two points. And that makes a line. That's not much of an arc. You know, it takes, it takes that other, that bottom and that questioning and everything else for you to grow and for you to learn. And then that arc is complete. And that makes a good story. And there's a reason why we're attracted to good stories. Right. And I don't want my story to just be a line. I like the arc. And so I want to, I want to explore that. And I want to make this a full, you know, enjoyable story for myself. And I think it's important to, I think it's important, like you said, to recognize. recognize that, that that, you know, although that that's the trajectory, I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's right for everyone and we, you know, who knows, maybe you've got a thousand lies to figure that out. But I do believe that like, naturally speaking, that that seems more fulfilling than just, you know, Richard Dawkinsing my entire life and just dying and falling into nothing, I guess. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, that doesn't seem too great. Yeah. And either way,

either way, we're both going to go there, right? So you might as well enjoy it. True. And look forward to something. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, not something I would have said maybe 10 years ago, though, so it's interesting. Yeah. Let's go to the third sighting. Okay. Yeah, the third sighting is with Lou Elizondo, so famous, you know, UFO whistleblower involved in Ossap. Never heard of him. Yeah, yeah, who's that guy? You know, and there's obviously controversy surrounding him, but he was nice enough to host Amar, my good friend from Yes Theory, shout out to Amar, and I at his house, I think in like 2021 or 2020, it was end of 2021. No, sorry, end of 2022.

And we're all hanging out by his shed. And he is talking about how he's a very smart, pretty polymatic guy. And he's talking about how the sun is kind of a nuclear fusion reactor. And he's getting deep into like the science. And we'd had an interesting day. And he had said actually, like, you know, he had mentioned that like, Like the UFO phenomenon had followed him around and entered his house. And that's a common thing in the UFO world where you study it in a government context.

All those guys, you know, Colm Keller, Bigelow, like all of them, like had experiences that were paranormal after doing what they did, you know, on Skinwalker Ranch. I guess in Bigelow's case, he was the patron. But, you know. And so we had that context in mind. And Amar actually, you know, had been really wanting to see a UFO. I don't think he had seen one up until that point. And so we're deep in conversation on, you know, this sort of crazy science stuff. And we just see over the shed hard to gauge distance, but pretty far off in the distance.

I don't know, maybe 5,000, 10,000 meters. I don't know. Hard, hard to say. We see a green fireball just shoot off. And all of us are just like, what the fuck? And I think specifically, Lou had said that he had. seen green fireballs in his house and that's in imminent that's in imminent that's in imminent he might have even told us that that that day I don't remember but um but that was pretty wild seeing

something with him. Hmm. Interesting. And this was was this in a clearing? No, no. I mean the whole night sky was super clear like there were no trees or so it was it was in the sky. Yeah, it was in the sky. It wasn't like low tree level or anything. Oh no no no no. You weren't elevated. It was it was up. Oh, it was in the sky. And you saw it shoot a Cross. Yeah, so shoot across to the, like, and then the shed that we were right next to kind of obstructed it at a certain point. It was, it was very fleeting. Fast? Very fast, yeah. Could have been like a meteorite or something? Totally could have been a meteorite. I don't know. Okay. Yeah. So it was that far that it could have been in orbit. Yeah. It could, yeah. It could have been in orbit. But nonetheless, interesting that you mentioned that and that green orbs, you know, are what he said. And then that's what you said. And then that's what you said. saw. So again, like I don't, I mean, I don't know. Yeah. No, I'm there's, there's no way we're going to get to the bottom of what, what that was here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'd like to, I'd like to think that, you know, I always say this, even the sightings that I've had, I can't tell, I'm not smart enough to

tell you what they are. I don't have enough data. I don't know whether there anything of substance, but I know how they made me feel. Yeah, exactly. And I'd like to think that that's exactly how I'd feel if I did see a real craft. Yeah. And I do think, you know, this is partially maybe backtracking on my earlier statement of like, your eyes are like the most important thing to trust. I do think looking for repeatable patterns with the UFO thing is important and interesting. And unfortunately, due to the scientific paradigm, basically discounting anything dealing with consciousness.

Like if you're having like a psychedelic, if it's like psychedelic trips and breathwork, they're just going to write it off forever. And there's no way you can say, oh, it's like a. window into a thing that's actually objective, but like, it's like night vision. You're just seeing another part of the spectrum. You know, there's no way to win that argument. But I do think like the, like, I take the like the nuclear employees, like Robert Hastings work and all these nuclear employees seeing stuff in the sky. I take that probably more seriously than my own experience. Yeah. Those people are drug tested and like, yeah. Yeah. They're, they're on the PRP

program so that they report if they're taking ibuprofen, they're guarding kind of the crown jewels of American defense. You could say they're under high stress because of, you know, a lot of this stuff was like short of Cold War era. But at the same time, they see like kind of a repeatable architecture. They often see green, red, you know, white balls of light saucers, tick tacks, you know, typical UFO structures that you see. And they're often tampering with the comms links or shutting down missile silos or, you know, in certain cases people even claim to, you know, board crafts. And so, uh, yeah, I would, I would, uh, you know, put more stock in that in from like a consensus scientific, you know, standpoint. Yeah. Even then my own experiences. Sure. Yeah. That's what I mean for me as well. Yeah.

I would probably trust them a little bit more. But I'm sure they're smart enough to also question their own, you know, sightings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's tough. I think some of these guys, um, they get so, they've, experience so much pushback from the consensus people. And they have these other kind of brothers in arms who've experienced the same thing where they're like, what the hell? Like, why wouldn't you believe me? You know, and so I think, and then that causes them to dig their heels in a little bit more and probably just not, you know, doubt what they. And in certain cases, they have physical marks from, you know, the abductions. And there's no arguing with the fact that the missile silos were down and the stories

get changed in the way that they're reported to like sort of mainstream press. So, like, I do think at that point I understand some of them being like what the fuck like I'm not lying you know but but yeah I mean I always think you know a little dose of humility is is good for for everybody okay um let me ask you this this is a we're gonna we're gonna jump ship a little bit to a little bit of a thought experiment which UFO story do you so badly want to be real And I'm not saying, I'm not saying you believe it. Yeah. I'm saying which one do you want to be real?

I don't know. My, like, genuine answer that question is I don't know if I have one where I'm like, this, this one, like, I hold more weight in. But that's not the question. Yeah. I'm not asking if you hold weight in it. If I want it to be real. Yeah. So, like, for instance.

Oh, like that, like, somehow would create like a world that's like better or more interesting than the others. D. D. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. That one's cool. I like that one. But out of all the UFO stories that you've heard.

Of all, like, actual real UFOs. Travis, to Bob, to anything at all, to TTV to like, you know, obviously that might be the answer. Yeah, I love the Townsend Brown one because he like downloaded. It was like a zip file of like all of his work. He was spent a lot of time in Catalina. And this was, I think he was like 17 years old. And he interacted with this orb, said it approached him. This is his daughter recounting this.

And he just downloaded. his life's work and his life had everything to do with like exotic high voltage experimentation that you know could eventually possibly lead to gravity manipulation and you know we only have four forces and physics and only two of them are long range and only one of them we can you know make any use of in a lab or in the physical world and uh you know that's just so inspiring it's like the fact that you can get some sort of uh revelatory like hierophony as like diana Pesolka would say, and that would lead to your life's work is so, that's so cool. So I would say that one, yeah. Yeah. By the way, my Discord said they're playing a drinking game every time you said

Thomas Townsend Brown or ontology, we'd have to take a shot. That's hilarious. You guys are going to be wasted. Yeah, that guy's super interesting, man. You know, I'm fully looking forward to the book that you'll inevitably eventually write about this guy because I don't think anyone's gone as deep as you have on this subject with this gentleman. I think everything that's adjacent to him

or tangentially involved with this gentleman, you've gone down that rabbit hole. No matter how ridiculous it sounds, if I mention anything with whether it's time travel or like some type of like nuclear fusion during that time or gravity manipulation, around, you know, the 50s era.

I just see you light up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Christmas tree. It's wild. Yeah. That axis of the UFO stuff is the most interesting to me. And I don't quite know why, but I just find it so fascinating. And I do, you know what?

I think it's because it's so not part of the zeitgeist of, you know, whatever is being discussed in like UFO whistleblower world. Yeah. Like it's existed. entirely on its own. And, like, I'm very supportive of a lot of these whistleblowers coming out. I think it's amazing. I think we live in this, like, historic time as a result of that stuff.

But it still feels, like, more political. Yeah. And then you have this other stuff where it's like, it just kind of, like, entered my life in this, like, interesting, serendipitous way. And most people weren't, I mean, there was this, like, before Times Forum, which is, like, the darkest corners of the web, these, like, hardcore towns and brown, you know, researcher. So I do want to give credit to that. I appreciate you saying I'm very deep on the topic, but there's this woman named Jan Lundquist who's incredibly deep on Paul Schatzkin, who wrote the

biography is great. And, you know, that was that was kind of it. And Nick Cook, even who wrote a history of, you know, American and Nazi inquiries into anti-gravity. The first, you know, 50 or so pages of that book are basically dedicated to Thomas Townsend Brown. And he doesn't know what to make of brown because he was like he's associated with the philadelphia experiment which seemingly has all this you know like disinfo associated with it it's kind of it seems kind of quacky you know it comes out through this uh pseudonym carlos ayende but it's really carl allen this you know merchant marine or whatever and uh and he just doesn't know how to make sense of the town town's brown stuff and a lot of his experiments were seemingly debunked at the time when in fact i think he was actually kind of

running a lot of disinfo about his own uh experiment Well, he was doing that about his own experiments. Yeah, he had a, it was called the wounded, the wounded prairie chicken routine. And he even, this is the most genius thing he ever did. He created an experiment. And this is, you'd appreciate it, this in Magic World. He created an experiment that is 95% similar to the real experiment, but that uses, the, makes use of ion wind as thrust.

And that was the main critique of his real experiment. So he would use these capacitors, these solid dielectrics, to create this sort of weight reduction effect, like basically anti-gravitic effect. And he also had a fluid dielectric, which involves these like copper wires and tinfoil. And that creates the, you know, this positive, this ion wind thing. And that creates thrust in that case. And the ion wind was how they would debunk the solid gravity, solid state. state gravitators as well. And so he popularized the thing that was 95% similar to the correct thing. And you can see this online. It looks like an eighth grade science experiment with this DIY,

like kind of lifter technology or whatever. And so it's fascinating. It was like an amazing way to throw people off the trail. And he did that after in 1950, he was stationed at Pearl Harbor and a Soviet-born janitor, spy for the Soviets compromised his experiments. And he freaked out and that's when he created this wounded prairie chicken routine and he had a diary that he wrote in i believe until around that time 1951 or 52 and then he stopped the diary entries go blank at that point as well so that's when he kind of goes off grid you think he uh you just like time traveled somewhere a lot of well you know we talked about this last night as well you have you know uh back to the future you have doc brown emit t t brown so thomas townsen brown he flies on his flux capacitor

Towns and Brown's experiments are, you know, capacitor based. Mr. Fusion is powering it. He spent the rest of his life looking for a power source to support the megavolt range electricity that would pump into the, you know, the experiment, the electromagnetism, into the experiments. And so it was called, yeah, Mr. Fusion. And he, in back to the future, I believe it takes place in 1985. And that is, you know, the year Townsend Brown dies.

And then he goes back to 1957, which is one in the American. context at the Bonson labs, by the way, one of the rumored majestic 12 guys, Gordon Gray, is the president of UNC Chapel Hill at the time. He proves his experiment out at the Institute of Field Physics. And so it's this bizarre, like, accurate. And he was called Doc Brown in, you know, real life. And Doc Brown is the character in, you know, back to the future. Wild.

Simulation. Well, simulation. Or Stephen Spielberg, who made post encounters with the future. the third kind has crates with skunk works and TRW. Skunk works at, you know, Lockheed, TRW at Northrop, the two organizations most associated with UFO reverse engineering. And, you know, clearly has had some inside info. If you look at ET, you know, the kind of like the locking on to, Jake Barber didn't

invent locking onto the craft. Yeah. You have, in ET, you have this kind of like hybridization between the child and, you know, the ET. And so I think, you know, people like Steven Spielberg, Christopher Nolan, you know, James Cameron, like those guys have to be, you know, fed some interesting info. I've either fed, but, you know, if I were to make a Hollywood movie, being a fan of euphology, if that's a word, I would also like it to be as close to the real thing as possible, right? So I might also populate it with skunk work stuff and EG and GNG stuff or, you know, Raytheon, whatever, like, you know.

Oh, I'm saying fed like real stuff. But I mean, like, as a, as a, as a fan, I would go out of my way to drop those Easter eggs in. Sure. Sure. And Steven Sewellberg, I think, has a deep interest in. I think he is a fan. Yeah, like you had James Fox on. I think one of James Foxes, uh, they had a letter.

It was like out of the blue or one of his first movies. Yeah. Yeah, it was a penitless one, I think. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think it was out of the blue. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean, the fact that, and James Fox was not a big name at the time.

Yeah. So, yeah, I think he's a pretty hardcore car. hardcore fans. There's an early interview of of Spielberg talking about talking about UFOs as well. I forget exactly when it was but he was like super young and he was like he was like oh yeah you know we got these things and there's like he was talking about all this stuff and then all of a sudden shut up about it. Right. And started making movies about it

instead. Well he there's a quote from Robert Lefield who's the creator of Deadpool and Robert Leafield says yeah like I remember the time when uh, uh, Steven Spielberg told me that the UFOs were actually time travelers and they were not, uh, uh, ETs. He says, he says, what do you think? Like, you know, like idiot. Like parenthesis doesn't say idiot, but it's like, what do you think? Do you think it's more likely that they're just from, you know, Zeta reticular? They're from like, you know, thousands of light years away or they're us from the future protecting, you know, timelines. Right. So some Michael P. Masters stuff, perhaps. Yeah, maybe exactly. Totally. Yeah. Shout out to. Michael Master.

Yeah, he might have been watching those podcasts, too. I wouldn't put it past them, you know, you'd be surprised who watches your videos. Yeah, it's always a trip. Like, I'm not, I didn't have Instagram like three years ago. Yeah. It's like kind of wild. Yeah, but I mean, people, a lot of people who are, you know, not active, but are celebrities or politicians or whatever, they're not always commenting on the video. No, no.

But they are sharing it to people, you know. And even it was James Fox, you just mentioned, said that it is mandatory to watch the phenomenon. Yep. For Arrow. That's awesome. On the podcast, he said, in Arrow, they said it was mandatory to watch. Well, it makes sense because I've, you know, been in rooms with people in D.C. where I'm like, given your credentials, you should know so much more about this topic.

That's, that is what's so weird about this topic. And it's why I think people like Joe Rogan reasonably get so exhausted and are like, Fuck, this is ridiculous. Yeah, because nobody's adding anything to the conversation. Well, nobody adds anything to the conversation. And whatever org structure this operates under is like over the head, like, maybe the meta conspiracy about the whole thing is that like, again, all the three body problem. Like the aliens have their own scientific military industrial complex program. Yeah.

And the managerial system. Like we have human clearance systems. But in fact, like, it's like the deputy and like the middle main. of the guy and the person on top who you'd expect to know doesn't know. And I've seen this multiple times. And so that's what's so confusing and weird about it. It's like some like hermetically you know, enmeshed thing. Yeah. And it's not even a compartmentalization problem. No. It's just a purely just you have no knowledge. No. It's going on. So on the one hand, it's compartmentalized. But I actually think the underrated thing to point out,

is how interwoven and weirdly linked it is. It's like a no chain of authority issue. Like it's, you know, UAP Gerb, who has this amazing channel, talks about all these like FFRDCs, you know, and then academic research, you know, federally funded organizations as well. And it's like this, and they're often like the money gets funneled into them. And then they have like little carveouts of classified prosaic programs that are like like dual use for the alien thing.

And it is so hard to wrap your head around. It's just extremely weird. Like when you learn things like, oh, maybe Star Wars, like the Strategic Defense Initiative, had something to do with the UFO thing. And, you know, yeah, you get into all sorts of interesting questions. It's not as clear cut as you would like it to be anyways.

No. No, it's not. And it's not one department. Yeah. And it's like it's purposely obfuscated through. It's extremely complicated. It was like the CIA's Office of Senate. Scientific Intelligence, Patel Memorial Institute with all the nuclear stuff.

But the Office of Naval Intelligence was, I think, ahead of everybody on this stuff. Like when... I was getting his paychecks from, too. That's fascinating. Right. I've heard that. And I've heard of people high up in the Navy being like, don't fucking talk about Bob Lazar. And I think Jim Goodall told me an interesting story about that.

Actually went into some high up. I was a Navy admiral. And I don't know how many stars. but like, you know, interesting guy. And the guy, I think he had like Bob Lazar's resume or something and like the guy like freaked out at him. And yeah, yeah, yeah. And was like, like, I never want to see this again, you know. That's interesting because the, there was the whistleblower on 4chan.

Yeah. And, you know, give that as much credence as you'd like. But if you call it whistleblower, whatever. But actually, you know, if true, did a lot more whistleblowing than a lot of people. Oh, yeah. I know what I mean? Yeah, sure, sure. Didn't get Dobsor-approved whistleblowing to go on Fortune.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But basically came out and said that like these MCUs, these mobile construction units were maneuvering, you know, the oceans and whatnot. And that this guy was part of this crash retrieval system. He was like number two, which, you know, number one gets the bodies in the E-1-15. Number two would get the components on the inside of the craft and three and four would take away the bulk. And so that was that was kind of his job. And somebody asked, well, what about Lou Elizando and Stephen Greer? and like these people.

And he answers, I don't know who those people are, but one name you didn't mention is Bob Lazar. And saying that name around here would get you taken out and put down like a dog. Whoa. And he goes, you do the math on why. Wow. Yeah. Fascinating.

So, you know, and man, that that whole document, that whole Q&A that this guy did on 4chan haunts me to this day. Because he said something in there that he said, notice yourself coming back to this as more information has discovered or unfolds. And it's exactly what I've been doing. Exactly what everybody's been doing. My, you know, the comments and people watch the videos are all like, dude, this is like what the 4chan guy said. And it keeps coming up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every whistleblower, every congressional hearing. That document mentions psionics. Yeah. The word psionics. Did it really? Yes, absolutely. That's fascinating.

Yeah. That's really fascinating. It mentions because at one point, there was a question, is there, you know, is there any type of, like, psychic interface or whatever? And he goes, there is one instance of psionics. And he's like, but he's like, I don't know if it was that or if it was like remote control. So what happened was they got apparently into the craft. The craft was downed.

And they, he didn't seem to think that they were taking them down, by the way. He said that there are certain spots, especially in Mexico. that these crafts would literally avoid because they went down too many times. Like, these guys make mistakes. Yep. And he's like, they used to be... Did he say in Mexico?

Yeah, Mexico. I've, yeah, heard some interesting stuff around that. Yeah, he's like... George Knapp just covered in his Netflix docks. And he says they avoid it like the plague. Interesting. And he's like, before we'd see a lot more bodies. But he's like, now they're like pretty much unmanned

because they've been going down and they know that we've been collecting them. And, you know, even sometimes they... It's weird, but they'll like... Yeah, I mean, there's a whole bunch of weird interactions with, with this stuff. But this time, they get called in. So what he assumes, the people go in before him take the element 115, because he said it was 115. And they also... So you said it was a stable version of it?

He doesn't know. He doesn't handle it. And he said he was surprised that Bob handled it. Okay. He's like, because normally it's, you don't touch with your hands, and it's only one guy. And it's a very important thing. Like no one else is allowed even seeing it or touching. It's so delicate and like compartmentalized that E115 because it's like super rare.

You can't find it on earth. Like it's it's. So one guy gets it and they get the bodies. And once they're out, then team two gets called in. And then team two goes in to clean out like the tools and all of the sort of, you know, compartments and all of the, all of the loose hang and stuff, components. And so they go in to do their job. and the back of the craft apparently starts closing, like the hat starts closing.

And he goes, I wish I wore brown pants that day. He was like, it was very scary. And then so they radioed out to team one. And they were like, hey, team one. And they go, they're like, the door's closing. He goes, hold on. And all of a sudden the door started opening. And he goes, you clear?

And they go, yeah. So he knew they had the bodies. So he's not sure if whether it was like maybe, he said maybe it was like a remote control or. Yeah. These beings were alive, you know, and did that under duress or something. Oh, Jesus. Yeah.

One of the darker things that he said in that Q&A was he found one time there was a downcraft with an abductee on board. That's. Yeah, so. Yeah, so dead person and, you know, pilots. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard of rumors of the Aztec crash in 1948 that, you know, 16 little grades. 16 bodies, yeah.

But there's, there's, I don't know if this is right, but that that's actually what caused Forrestall, who was, uh, oh, to go over the edge? To go over the edge. He was very religious. And he was secretary of the Navy. And then he became, uh, secretary of defense. And I believe he was speaking to the, um, to the priest to the head of the Air Force. Oh. And, uh, was, was hearing this description of like mutilated, like, human and alien bodies together.

And it sent, and that's, he was. checked into this, you know, Navy hospital in Bethesda, Maryland, you know, very soon after. But this 4chan, I mean, you're making me want to just go back and do a deep dive on. I mean, that's, that's amazing. I read the whole thing, four parts. Yeah. It's like four and a half hours total. Yeah.

Um, of going through the entire. The mobile construction units where they're, they're each UFO is built to spec. Mm-hmm. And giant hamburger shaped UFOs with no lights on them. They're massive. Yeah. They move extremely fast underwater. So this is exactly what, you know, Lou was talking about, which came out after once again.

Right. And he said, you'll come back to this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was dying. And so that gave him the liberty to. That's what he said. If I were to throw a red herring in there. Sure.

Because a lot of people were like, because he said he had liver cancer and he's like, liver cancer will make you do, you know, crazy things and whatever. And people are like, well, that'll just give you away. Because they'll know who has liver cancer. Yeah. Right. And I'm like, that's why he probably doesn't have liver cancer. Right.

Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's probably why, you know, some other reason. I don't know what it is, but definitely he's even said there will be red herrings. Yep. What else did he say that was proven correct? That was, well, I mean, that was proven correct?

Not proven, but corroborated by further testimony. So this thing is in the region of the Bermuda Triangle. Mm-hmm. Right. So the Atlantic Ocean. Yep. And a lot of naval base. is there.

Yeah. A lot of things coming in and out of the water. Yep. You know, if you look at Nimmits and all that stuff, I mean, this is kind of where we saw tick tax and all of that stuff as well, right? So this is kind of the same area. You know, what else was there? I mean, he talked about the grays, that they were just like great.

He did say that they had genitalia. Interesting. Which I thought was weird. Well, that's, that's, yeah, cuts against a lot of reports. Yeah, but he did also say four fingers, which does cut, which does kind of make sense. Yeah, corroborate. But again, he, I don't think he said, so 2002, he said was a really important date. 2002 is an important year and he kept emphasizing that.

And he said that's when sort of leadership changed. And that's when he left the program. He said the people who were in charge were very much, they wanted the structure. story to come out a little bit more. And they were working with the Air Force. Air Force is frustrated because they can't say anything. And they wanted to come out. But the new leadership came in and tightened down, clamped down in 2002.

He's like, that was like, you know. And so that's right after like 9-11. Yeah. You know, and after, you know, the Pentagon thing happened and all that, right? So I don't know, maybe it has something to do with that. Maybe a change at the top. And they were like, hey, right, time to clamp down. Well, I remember that there was that Rumsfeld speed.

of like we're missing over a trillion dollars in like a defense budget right before 9-11 yeah and so and you had you know this uh katherine austin fits this sort of uh whistleblower government whistleblower who talks about billions and billions of dollars going missing and and and probably having to deal with black money and you know i think she actually took an interest in kind of exotic science and technology programs as a result of led her there the search um i mean to this day they've never passed an audit anyway never passed still now. Yeah.

They're not blown up the Pentagon every other day. No. Just not, no. You're passing these audits. Sure. Yeah, no, and I do wonder if something happened at that time. There's also a story of Hal Putoff advising the George W. Bush administration and I think like the 0304 timeframe on, they did like this net assessment.

Interesting. Their national security advisor named Stephen Hadley on whether disclosure would be worth it. And Hal Putoff is saying this in front of an audience of, you know, tons of people at Stanford. for the Soul Foundation. And they came out of this assessment saying that they thought it would be too disruptive and not, you know, worth it. And he speaks how sort of cryptically on like what those reasons are because then you give away what the, you know, maybe underlying truth is. Sure. But that's fascinating that he was even in those conversations and that those conversations may have taken place.

There's also a woman I've become friends with who's a great UFO researcher whose father is sort of a legend in the UFO world. because he's been tweeting so much, and very sadly, he just passed away. Her name is Pippa Malmgren, and her father is Harold Malmgren. And she was special assistant to George W. Bush and, you know, doing, I think, on his, like, economic counsel. And she said some interesting things about that review. And I think they may have been reading the three body problem. Whoa. Which is pretty interesting. I keep hearing that, man. Yeah, yeah. A lot of people think it has to do with like the date being thrown around and, you know, that type of deal. Right.

And, you know, you think of, you know, if that is the case, if, you know, we know of some encroaching a muamua mua or whatever it is, you know, coming here. Yeah. It's a massive mothership or whatever giving us a heads up on some level. We might, we might just be in a race. Yep. Yeah, and that, I mean, there's, it's very unlikely that whatever disclosure we're going to get involves these like, uh, very discreet. Whatever alien presence exists, a la John Keel or Jacques Phile. It's a weakly entangled with our reality.

And it seems like it's sort of in meshing itself slowly with us over, over time. That's kind of three body problem mask as well. Like you can't just touch off mass hysteria by saying, you know, we're coming now. And so I think it makes sense from that perspective. And it also makes sense from the perspective of the way science progresses. And it seems to just you go through these weird stultification, like stagnations over long periods of time. And then you get these like Cambrian explosion of ideas.

And why does that happen? And then why is there. There's a great book called Bedeviled by Professor Humana Canales. And she talks about the history of demons and science. And Descartes was shown the Cartesian plane, you know, the foundations of like our modern science itself by this demon while he's like a soldier in the Prussian army. And you have all these examples of that throughout history. So if you look at the phenomenology of science itself, it's actually far more akin to revelation.

And it's not like you're, you know, dotting the eyes, crossing the T's, you know, you finish an equation on the chalkboard. It's like you're in the shower, you're a patent clerk, Einstein at his desk, or Dirac staring at the fire or, you know, Heisenberg. get hell go land or all these things they're like you you get zapped with the idea or whatever um so so i think you know there's a lot about the three body problem that's fascinating the final thing i'd say is uh china's a relatively closed society when it comes to kind of information in and out and especially when it comes to kind of heretical contrarian ideas you know it's like jack ma says like one bad thing about ghi or whatever and he's like you know he's like persona non grata right and uh that book is extremely critical of the cultural revolution. Like, it starts with this, like, you know,

scene of this, like, uh, uh, these scientists, basically like being like beaten to a pulfer or this is the daughter of a scientist or whatever. No, I think it is a scientist. Yeah, terrible scene. Terrible scene. And, um, uh, you know, it's like, you believe in Einstein. You're, you know, yeah. And, uh, uh, the CCP still pushes that book, uh, in STEM education in many context. So you have to ask yourself if it's so like, contrarian, why would they, you know, why would that communist country push it out? You'd expect it to be treated like a Tiananmen squared query or whatever, you know, not Yeah, but at the same time, the guy who owned the rights to the book got poisoned and died.

That's true. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like it didn't go out without a fight perhaps. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe it was like they wanted to co-opt it if, you know, it was going to. Yeah, it did, it did seem that way. seem like it did seem like more than a money thing. Yeah.

Although it was like one of the best selling books of all time for them or whatever. It was like a really, really good, you know, the book did really incredibly well. Yeah. So maybe from a national pride perspective. Yeah. Or cultural, you know, cultural exporting type deal, maybe. But yeah, interesting nonetheless. And, you know, back to the Fortune underwater guy, you know, his theory was, you know, he kept saying higher ups.

just told him that they don't really care about us. They kind of like, they just don't care. Yeah. It's not like they're benevolent or whatever. They just seem to not care. And now he had this like built a spec thing. And he's had the higher ups even told him is like they treat this more like a zoo. Yep.

And like they can't be bothered by the day to day minutia of the animals. But if one of them breaks out or whatever, they got to kind of like clean it up and control it. But other than that, like knock yourselves out. Totally. And then, you know, his, the theory that they had, that him and his higher-ups had was one of two, was either, one, they're protecting us in order to wait for us to reach some type of level of conscious awareness or, you know, higher whatever, higher vibration. Or they're holding the planet for something else, for someone else that that's coming to take what's rightfully theirs. That's, you know.

And so if, if you want to play on. that theory a little bit, the idea of, okay, let's say I'm dotting around the galaxy and populating these different planets and making them, you know, thrive with these different flora and fauna that I'm genetically enhancing and I've got 100,000 planets all at different stages, you know, and we're dropping, you know, metallurgy over here and we got some, you know, agriculture over here and religion over here, and they're all just kind of growing at their own different paces. But you'll want to set up some type of AI fail safe to make sure that everything, because you don't want to have to be there yourself. I mean, there's so many planets. Maybe there's

a billion planets that they're doing this to, you know, to like seed life in the universe. So instead, well, you would develop this technology, this giant craft that lives at the depths of the ocean to different points in the world that deploys these. undetectable, you know, sort of craft that are built to spec and that is piloted mostly by AI, but sometimes by these beings that are also AI in some respect that are like low, you know, conscious beings that that just kind of like are drone like. Yeah. And they just kind of deploy and they shoot out to like when there's world problems and they always come back into their own home base. He said like they never leave space or come from out of

space. He's like, sometimes we'll see big ones come in from space. And he said, those are carriers. They're usually giant tic-tac shapes. And he's like, uh, Yeah. Well, he said there's, um, they've never shot one of those down. And he said, if we can get one down, it's a guaranteed promotion. Oh, wow. Well, and I don't know if he says this, but Robert Hastings, who wrote UFOs and nukes talks about mother ships. It's saucers coming out of motherships. Yeah. And so that I could imagine that having, you know, big multiplicative effect where if you have these big cigar shape things, you have, you have, you have a bunch of saucers in there. Yep. I mean. And he says the saucer shape, too, is like when you think of it, this was really interesting.

He's like, when you think of it, it's all just because they're built to spec, so he's like, put it this way. You have a plate of food and you want to cover it up. What do you do? You put like your tin foil over it. What does that look like? Saucer. That's all. That's as simple as it is.

They got stuff there that they need to do and work on and they want to just cover it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fascinating. It's not more. Yeah. Crazy than that. That's the theory, right? Like, he's like, I can't stress enough how to spec everything is built. He's like, I will, he's like, for instance, if they were doing an abduction thing and they wanted to abduct two people, there would be two rooms, two beds. All right, let's say there's two pilots, then there'd be two seats and that's it. Close it up. The tools they need, they fit in the wall perfectly. Yeah. Everything is just printed.

Well, I mean, if you look at where our, you know, digital prowess is going with 3D printing. And then you look at what DARPA is looking into right now, all the biological computation, how do cells perform, you know, low-level computational tasks, you know, how are they so computationally efficient? Can you program them to get them to do things? You know, can we create some sort of anatomical compiler in the future where you can 3D print biological life? You know, we can do synthetic DNA creation. You do synthetic cultured meat or whatever. We can clone. We've done dolly.

Right. Yeah, we've done dolly. I mean, yeah, maybe not the most successful experiment, but, like, no, I mean, there's a startup, I believe, called colossal bioscientists trying to bring back woolly mammoths right now. So we're definitely on the precipice of something. And there's a Korean doctor that does a bunch of cloning in Dubai. That's fascinating. There's a whole documentary on it. Yeah, for rich people.

Oh, wow. For their pets. That's so interesting. So you could have like a woolly mammoth pet. I met one. I met a, I met the world's smallest chihuahua, teacup chihuahua. Oh my God. Miracle Millie, I think her name was.

And they made 30 of them. How expensive were each? They were 30 grand or 100 grand a piece. And I was with someone. I won't say who this person was, but they were a very important person. And when I pet the dog and we were talking and this guy was getting into all sorts of weird stuff and I go, what about cloning? And he was like, oh, my dog's a clone. And I was like, what?

He was like, yeah, the dog, he just pet. He was like, that was a clone. They made 30 of them. And he paid 100 grand. So there's a Netflix documentary. I saw later. I was like, oh, that's the guy he went to go see. And they started off with cloning camel and horses and like these like thoroughbred horses and stuff like the Arabian horse and stuff like that that were worth, you know, millions of dollars because they would breed, right?

So they said, well, why don't we just make another one? Yeah. But all of this answers also the number one detracting kind of comment, which is why would they crash? And like, maybe they don't give a shit. Maybe this is their global hosting kit that they deployed to the U.S. or to the, not U.S., to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the. to the world. Yeah. And they are just, it's literally, and it makes sense, you have these Archimedes leverage.

You have these points of most leverage where we could blow ourselves up with nuclear. And then, you know, maybe this whole thing is somewhat of a simulation. Again, I don't like the word simulation like you, because that's a little nihilistic. But there's some purpose around life. And if you reach certain states of consciousness, you know, you light up. You're a node that lights up for them or whatever. Yep. And then so those are the two things.

that they take note of. And otherwise, you're like in some systemic, you're in like a suit. Some terrarium, and they don't gear in it. You're in a little, you know, yeah, global village snow globe thing. And it's cellular automata.

Maybe you hit, you know, hit a node here, hit a node there, do an implant here. But yeah, like, to your point, they don't care if they're seen. They don't care if they see you. And then, you know, they don't care if their little von Neumann replicator robot,

like gets popped out of the sky or whatever. Like, you know, maybe they get pissed over a long time scale. They get annoyed. They get annoyed at best probably at worst. Yeah. You hear rumors from, you know, legacy UFO programs. They want their stuff back and they're pissed or whatever. But, like, maybe it's not that big of a deal for them, you know.

I don't think it is. And that's what this guy tended to say, too. It's like, it's not like they're trying hard to be secretive. They're just kind of like remaining under the radar. Their goal is, you know, just to do their job undetected. But if they get detected because of our tech or we're in the right place or right time, and they're like, okay, so be it. That's fascinating because you look at the early.

crashes like Roswell, you know, 47. I don't know if Trinity is real. There's a debate about that, you know, Jacques Valle versus Dede and Johnson, who knows. But like, you know, Aztec, 48. And like, you have bodies involved in a lot of these. And if he's saying they're less involved, maybe that isn't. Maybe, maybe they have updated. And they're like, you know, we're just going to send our drones out.

Yeah, they lost too many bodies. And like, and he said sometimes it was just super weird. He's like, one of the early ones, he's like, this is before I got there. He's like, it was more like a bus, which. which is funny that you said bus earlier. And he said it was, it seemed like it was more for viewing because it had a lot of windows.

And it was meant for like many beings. It's like a tourist. Yeah, kind of like, kind of like, let's go see what's going on type deal. It might have just been reconnaissance or something. But yeah, they had some that were meant for mining. Wow. Some that were, yeah, they had all sorts of little, like,

they could tell what the point of the craft was based on the inside. the components they found. Yeah. And he's like one of the most interesting one was there's one that had like a lab on the inside. And he's like that's when I kind of like left. So I didn't really get to look into it. But it seemed like a lab like genetic something. He was very interested in that.

That's fascinating. Yeah. Well, the undersea UFO. There's actually a book called Undersea UFO base by Preston Dennett. And it's about the Catalina, you know, ridge area. And, you know, and then that you have, you know, rumors of, you know, off the coast of Mexico. Yeah. Danny Sheehan even says, yeah, I have coordinates.

And so we were talking about taking a boating trip out there. Yeah. There's Atec is a, yeah, weapons testing facility that's famous in the Bahamas. You have tons of UFO settings around NASA. And so east and west coast. Mm. They both, you know, they're everywhere and in Alaska, like up north, right? Yeah, Alaska was one of the first.

And the Indian Ocean. There's like, there's a lot of sightings kind of everywhere near big bodies of water, deep bodies of water. Yep. And he would even say, like, if approach, this is the wild thing. It's like he said when, if a ship were to. approach it, it wouldn't like do anything. But if you were to like

turn abruptly, you're probably going to get disintegrated into nothing. He's like, they have tech that he's like, first of all, it shits on anything electronic in the vicinity. He said, we've tried to hit it with nukes. He's like, we've gone after it with submarines, with jets

and whatever and only like in boats and whatever and only the submarine came back. He's like, we have audio of a pilot going close to it and we're talking to him and all of a sudden it's just nothing, boom, just gone and never hear from him again. He's like, they take you out. And he's like, if you go after them, they'll usually just be evasive. It'll like just be evasive.

It'll go away. You won't see it for weeks and then it'll come back unless you force it into a corner. And then he's like, that's the last thing you'll ever do. I think there's a history of like lost submarines in the Navy as well. And like you have the U.S. Connecticut. I mean, you have all these planes disappearing and everything else. And immediately, I think of NH-MH-370, where didn't the plane make like this abrupt turn?

It did. Yeah. The flight path is very weird. Yeah. So like that abrupt turn maybe signaled whatever was in the ocean there to be like, whoop threat. Interesting. Gone.

So then maybe, yeah. What do you think of that video? Does that make the video maybe possibly more? Potentially or maybe, you know, maybe has nothing to do with it, obviously. But, I mean, if it does, I think it's just an interesting fact that it did have that sharp turn. Yep. before disappeared. Yeah.

And he specifically said, he's like, unless you're doing like any sharp turn maneuvers around it, you'll be fine. He's like, because nothing like, they're not going to take out a boat of hippies. You know, they've learned to, to know the difference, almost like an AI would. That case always interested me too, because, you know, I'm not saying that I have no idea if the video is real. But there's, I think there were these guys working at free scale superconductors, like on board the plane.

So that might point towards like this like interesting three body problem thing or it's like certain scientists are like extremely valuable to them. Mm-hmm. I don't know. Yeah. Interesting. That could, I mean, it's, um, it's a sensitive one. But there's because there's a lot of opinions that. So many civilian lives involved, you know, so.

Of course. Yeah, you don't want to. Respectful to the families. It's, it's a tough, it's a tough place to be like, well, no, they're probably still alive with aliens somewhere. Like, you know, it's a weird. It's a weird thing to say. But yeah. The circumstances around it and the fact that, I mean, the fact that we didn't find anything doesn't surprise me.

Yeah. Have you ever seen how big the oceans are? Of course. It's insane. Planes get lost all the time. Yeah, you can't find, you know. Or not all the time, but like, yeah, I mean. You have a hard time finding a plane crashing in like the Siberian forest, let alone a body water, you know, which is completely undetectable, like, if it goes under.

Totally. So. But it is, I don't know. It's also weird. CNN covered that one for. three or four months. There was a phone call thing, too. What was the phone?

Oh, the prank phone call. What do you talk about? The phone calls afterwards were like they would call and the phones would still ring and then they would hang up. No way. Yeah. Of, they would call the people. Yeah, the family members would call them and then it stopped working after a while.

And some people said, oh, that happens if your phone dies or like there was like a. No, that doesn't happen if your phone's under want like what or what? Yeah, yeah. I've never heard that. Yeah. So the families would call and it would ring and then it would just like hang up after instead of like going straight to voicemail. What?

Yeah. That's fascinating. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah, they were all panicking because that's what you do. You can try to call. So they would nonstop call. They would nonstop call.

And it would get through. And it would bring a few times and then eventually it stopped doing that. But it'd pick up. Oh, I'm not sure we'd pick up. I think it would just ring. Still weird. Still weird.

Yeah. Yeah. The phone is. That's what gave them hope. They were like, oh, you know. Right. Mm-hmm. Oh, wow.

Yeah. I don't know, man. It's a, it's a bizarre one for sure. Yeah. And seeing those videos, the multiple videos, you know, and that was, what was the big debunk there? They said that one frame matched exactly this frame from a video game, right? One of the, one of the flash frames. Yeah, one of those, the flash around the craft, Mick West said was exactly, famous UFO debunker says that it matched, yeah, some other frame from maybe a video game.

Yeah, I think corridor crew did a video on that as well. And they said the same thing. But then like Ashton Forbes or whatever, the main kind of proponent of, you know, this MH370 sort of mystery. He believes in that, eh? Oh, yeah, yeah. He definitely does. He came back and was like, of course, you know, they look similar, but they're not, it's not an exact match. I don't know, you know, it's possible to say.

And there are people who are like, you can't talk about this. It's going to ruin your reputation. I'm like, I don't know anything. I'm just saying I don't know. You know, what do you? Yeah. And who's going to, like, what reputation are we talking about here? the one that says that I believe in aliens?

Like, do you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, am I really trying to protect that reputation? Yeah, that reputation? Because there's, yeah, there's some sort of, you know, officially formal credentialed club where you can only, you know, this is the platform you have to accept. Yeah, no, it's like we're all kind of in very speculative.

Yeah, short gray's, tall grays, mantis, that's cool. Reptilians? I don't know, dude. You sound insane right now. Well, that's what's funny about this whole topic is people are like, yeah, you know, I believe, you know, seeing stuff in the sky that breaks physics as we know it. That's fine. But the thing coming in your bedroom and putting a microchip in you, I don't know, man, that's a bridge too far. And it's like, but you, how are you accepting that? And then not what, what is the bridge too far? You know, you're saying those have

no pilots? Yeah. That's scary too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what are they? Right. Are these sentient crafts? Yeah. No, it creates a cascade of questions that the person's usually not, you know, equipped to answer and then usually they want to cut it off at a certain thing but that that cut off is totally arbitrary it's not a it's not based on like just proper open thinking you know yeah not saying that you can't have a similar cascade where you down probability like each next thing where you say close encounter of the third kind is maybe slightly low probability and i think a lot of these deal with our priors and maybe there's actually more evidence for you know um close encounter the third kind because people come back with marks and like you know and like they deal with

this stuff often in the exact same way they deal with any sort of traumatic experience but um you know anyways I don't know how you would rank these things probabilistically but I think it's fair to say I think you know this is you know 70% probable this is 30% probably you know I like I'd rank my own yeah lower probability than the the nuclear guys or whatever and you know especially in mass but do you do you think that you'll ever um be shown a craft

I would love that that would be a dream is that part of the trajectory I used to think okay maybe I'll poke the bear enough that like I'll be able to like see some cool stuff

they'll be like now shut up they'll be like shut up but we'll show you it there um I don't know man like the more I learn about the legacy program, the more I think it's actually kind of a dark orientation towards the entire subject. Like, my thing is like ontological truth, take a shot, where it's like, I just want to

understand the, you know, architecture of reality. What is this? Like, what's the soup we're swimming in? Like, who are we on like, you know, and is there, is there something, you know, higher than this? And then there's like, the government is interacting with like a little part of that, like, the tip of the iceberg that you're seeing and it's doing so often in a way to just create weaponry. And so I think that's kind of a perversion of like, you know, that's not that's not what I like am most interested in. Sure. But do you think if you were to draw a line from the points of your trajectory so far that that line leads there? That's a great question. I don't know. I mean, my life's been so unpredictable thus far that it's just hard to say where it goes. And like, if invited to see a craft, I would say yes.

I wouldn't say no. If it meant you had to lie about seeing that craft, would you agree? If it meant I had to lie just about seeing that craft, probably, probably, not lying, but omitting it or like skirting around it. If it meant having to do anything as far as altering my content or like what I'm putting out, like, no, no. But like, yeah, I omit stuff all the time. I say, I would just say I can't say or, you know, whatever, you know, maybe I can't say the hermeneutic around I can't say now is like you're saying that you saw the thing or whatever.

So I'd have to figure that out and think about that. But like if it's completely harmless from like the content that I'm putting out perspective, like I want to see a craft. What about you? How would you answer that? Well, before we get to me, I still want to ask you these questions. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you believe David Grush saw a craft?

Uh, no, I don't, I don't think he's seen a craft. Do you believe how put off seen a craft? That's interesting. Maybe. Mm-hmm. I don't know, but maybe. Yeah. You know, that guy just, you know, he's got his, he's, he's brilliant.

He's really brilliant, and he's a polymath, and he's kind of this Renaissance man, and he pops up everywhere on this topic in, like, very deep circle. And he even had, like, this, I don't know if it was a limited hangout or what, but it was this advanced theoretical physics group. with Oakey Shannon and John Alexander and all these guys. And like, I have some reason to believe John Alexander was, you know, pretty deep on the inside with this stuff. And so those two interacting for that long, like, and then put off just being as smart as he is. Yeah. On all these different vectors, consciousness, but also, you know, these different models of like, you know, electrodynamics and stuff. Yeah, maybe.

I don't know. Then do you think that you've ever interviewed? someone who you can confidently say has been inside a UFO. Oh, I can confidently say they've been inside of a UFO. You've interviewed people who said they've been inside via abduction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, like Maria Woods.

Sure, yeah, or Whitley. Let's take those encounters away. In a government contact, you have a craft, you open the hatch and you walk in as like, a government employee or like aerospace employee. Without naming this person, do you think yes or no that you've spoken to someone who is possibly or has probably been in one of these crafts? That's such a good question. I don't think so.

Maybe. Yeah. I just thought of somebody who maybe, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It gets to a territory that, um,

that's weird to dance around, I think, because, you know, both of us, both of us want to know. We're both and, you know, everybody watching this far into the podcast wants to know, and comfortably say it. Or, you know, they're just trying to get us to shut up. There's two types of people watching this right now that are paying very close attention. But in that, in that context of wanting to know and, being the people that we are, and it's kind of like we're to them, to people watching, a lot of them at the forefront of this of trying to get this out, even though we don't necessarily see ourselves like that sometimes. We're kind of just like, I'm reporting on things that I, you know, people I talk to or whatever. But inevitably, we're getting closer and closer and closer. We're not getting further, I don't think. I agree. So I think there is a trajectory there where we make, we end up seeing something eventually. Yeah. whether it's N.H.I. Yeah. Or whether it's, um, you know, craft or tech, uh, derived from this.

Let's do it, man. Do you, are you prepared for that? I would love to see something. I think I am. I think I'm very open-minded and I'm pretty grounded. And I'd love, I'd love to see something. I mean, as far as trajectory goes, I think it'd be really cool on this topic to do real sense making around like thinking about ontological truth with respect to what we're dealing with instead of just quickly running into like you know how do we instrumentalize it to like you know for defense purposes or whatever thinking about it from that perspective thinking about the tech from uh civil infrastructure and like updating our you know kind of urban living environments and making them like these beautiful kind of places that like are in harmony with

with the earth or whatever. And then also making people's lives more meaningful through like the post number one and two. Yeah. And if, I think if we could do something like that, that would be epic. And then if you had top cover from UFO legacy programs where if they, if you find something that's dual use, it gets worked in or whatever.

Like, I'd be okay with that. But as far as my orientation towards, you know, like what I want to be spending time on, It feels sort of wrong to, I don't know, look at like the, sort of the celestial or like, you know, this really, you know, interesting ontologically, you know, fascinating phenomena. And then your immediate instinct is like weaponize, you know. Have you played out the scenario of like seeing a thing? Yeah.

Of like being like shown. Or meeting. Huh. Huh. I've played out the meeting. scenario but I've I've always thought that that would happen in a context that you know didn't come through like official government channels yeah um yeah I've thought I've thought of that what does that look like I don't know I mean I the way I think about it is like it's you're

probably in some sort of you know there's always missing time right altered state altered state and it's like that I don't know they sort of like descend upon you and uh I don't I don't I don't know i think it's a really hard to answer a scenario do you ever because i i often try to imagine what i would feel looking at that what do you would you would you would you freak out or would you be cool or um when i think hard on it and i really um imagine a face-to-face yeah with something unfamiliar knowing there's this knowing of like they they they're just like they know more than me. Yeah.

And like they, they have complete, complete dominance if they wish. You know, this whole, I think as a human being, we've never felt that before. Yeah.

You know, other than maybe if somebody has a gun to your head. Yep. You don't feel that type of inferiority. Sure. And I think that would, um, I would have to get past that somehow.

Maybe that, maybe that's on them to reassure me. but I think that like I often think of that. I often think on how that would inhibit my interaction. Yeah. Because I'm not sure I had any, I'd have anything to offer. Yeah. That conversation.

Yeah. And so I'd be at a loss for words. I wouldn't know where to begin. Maybe the conversation wouldn't be so that you could offer them something. Maybe it would be them, their ability to help you or something. Sure. But. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. I'm also. It's strange to think about. It's extremely strange to think about it. I think it would happen. It's often, I think, is somehow an emanation or a reflection of your state. And that's why, you know, I think these modern UFO world talks a lot about, like, summoning. And like, that feels like very dangerous and weird to me, honestly.

So, you know, I think you'd have to be in like a very good kind of peak energy state. And it would have to feel, it would have to feel it's like that, you know, it'll happen when you stop looking for it. Sure. You know, and then that feels like more meaningful than the like. Could you imagine doing kind of what the story that Danny told about, you know, seeing this J-Rod or whatever, sat across from you at a table much like this in a room much like this with similar lighting, staring at a being with the eyes wrapping around its head, you know, large head. And knowing that it can read your mind, like, how would you? would you be comfortable there? If it's in a like a skiff or something and you're like doing some formal government job,

no, I'd be freaked out. Yeah. Like that's kind of traumatizing. Mm-hmm. Again, I think if it happens in some sort of weirdly serendipitous sort of gentle way or something, maybe that. Yeah, between states and yeah, I think, I think in the government context, I could see that being extremely traumatizing. I told you this story yesterday. night but um you know we were talking about Danny Sheehan telling the story of aliens you know

possibly you know an S4 at area 51 and you know one of them being interviewed and you know that this witness what's the witness is what name uh Oscar wolf Oscar wolf reporting you know seeing you know the interview and um I have these really good friends Garrett Nicole McNamara and they are these legendary big wave surfers Garrett broke the world record for the biggest wave ever surfed in the world at Nazare, Portugal. And they have a show on HBO. It's an amazing show called The 100-foot Wave. And they were at lunch in Vegas with Buddy.

And their friend brought another friend, who's a longtime kind of like aerospace, you know, employee or whatever. And he was at lunch, and he looked a little sort of traumatized, and they get into it. And they find out that this guy had been an employee at Area 51. And I think they're joking about it because they just know the lore. that like, you know, so like, have you seen any aliens? And he kind of goes white in the face.

Apparently he had been taken down, again, also underground. So similar to the Oscar Wolf story and seen a reptilian being in custody, like somehow like like chained up. And, uh, and the thing seemed to speak to him like telepathically. And he freaked out and ran and has been, I think somewhat traumatized ever since. On, like, medical leave? I think on medical leave. Yeah. I don't know the exact.

I don't want to get it wrong. But yeah. And I know that I know them very well. They're like really close friends. Beyond trustworthy. And they didn't tell this to me to like tell this story. Like they don't need the fame or notarized. I mean, he's a legend.

And she's amazing. I love her. And so there's just there's no ulterior motive. Yeah. That's just relaying the information that this person said. Yeah. It's crazy. It is crazy.

There, also, Danny told me about this other story about somebody who is, I guess, maybe translating calls. I'm going to butcher this. But he was, or transcribing calls or something. And overheard them say at S4 that the mantis people didn't want any humans in the room. Wow. Yeah. Interesting. And I was like, oh, that's two weird things there.

You said the mantis people and then you said they don't like us. Wow. You know what I mean? Like we're inferior. They don't want to. Well, the other interesting possible spin on this is like you have Harold Malmgren, who is, you know, presidential advisor to JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford saying that he was briefed on other world technologies by Richard Bissell, who we know is the deputy director of the CIA

and founded Area 51. And so that's like the founding of Area 51 is dealing with other world technology. Because this is early on. This was like early 60s. And I think Area 51 was founded in the 50s. So like my guess is Occam's Razor that like other world technologies was like part of the founding of Area 51. It wasn't like eight years in. Now we have other world technology.

We're incorporating it area 51. They needed it to be hidden. And before Area 51 was formed to do U2 spy plane testing, it was an atomic test range. And we know where UFOs show up. Right. So, like, the Nevada test site is, you know, I think not just serendipitously, I think very deliberately created around this sort of stuff. And then you have to ask the ontological question, like, is there a maybe space program or, you know, aerospace program where the aliens are working with the humans side by side? And I had an interesting conversation with Hal put off where he sort of hinted at something like that being possible, which is always his sort of thing.

We're like, it's always, you know, he'll always be like, Can't confirm or deny. Look at this open source paper. Take a look. Tell me what you think, you know. Interesting, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, again, I don't know.

But, like, this story, the only part of this. And the whole Phil Schneider and, like, totally. There's, like, all the stories about them, you know, working alongside, you know, for these horrible things. Totally. Yeah. And the only part of the story that the McNamara is told,

which again, I fully believe they're relaying of this, but that like doesn't sit well with me, is the guy seeing the alien chained up. Like presumably, I mean, maybe some of these are like avatar biological drones and it actually is easy to sort of, you know, chain them on or, you know, whatever. But to the extent that we've had any real alien interaction, you know, maybe you'd partner with them.

You wouldn't like, you know, take them into custody or whatever. Yeah, I mean, unless, you know, Maybe that one misbehaved or they had some type of strife or, you know what I mean? Like there's there are those stories. Sure. Where, you know, you were not allowed. Was it Phil Schneider said you weren't allowed to bring a gun into like this certain level, whatever it was? There was like these, I don't know how many levels underground, but like in the lower ones, the ETs there did not want you to bring a gun in there.

And then one of like the lower level guys, he was there. And he had a gun on him because he forgot or whatever and like stressed them out and like it stressed him out. but he saw them like sort of like get stressed out. So he pulled his gun out and it was like they killed a bunch of people. And it was like this whole this whole thing. But like, you know, it. Yeah, we say this. We say this just just because it makes for interesting conversation.

But at no point am I sold on any of these things. But much like you said near the beginning of the interview or the podcast was, you know, let's low conviction. Let's bring all this on the ground floor. Yeah. Keep it there. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Play around with it and see if we can find connections, but definitely don't, you know, don't take it to the bank. Totally. I think to make progress in this field, you have to presume a baseline of like this thing, the thing probably exists and like, you know, make a few baseline assumptions and then speculate. And you have to be fully aware that like the whole thing might collapse at a certain point because you might have taken like the wrong branch. But I think to make to make progress, you have to sort of. suspend certain disbelief. You have to say, okay, past a certain amount of probability. Let's know that it's still probabilistic,

but let's take it as a prior in our further speculation. Yeah. Yeah, Occam's Razor doesn't really apply to the UFO landscape. No. No, no, no. When you're looking for, you know, new information. Absolutely. But I think the fringe is where the sort of future comes from.

Yeah. And so it's systematically sort of, you know, panning for gold in the weird. shit is like that's where that's where the good stuff come yeah and i found out like even hanging with you like yesterday and today that your you know your drive and your passion for zero point energy gravitational more more on the the gravitational stuff um the manipulation of gravity and what you know what the effects of that are on time and and whatever like that's your interest and i found it that like my equal interest lies

in the stories of these beings. Yeah. I'm just like completely obsessed with them. I have all these books with like these where they meet these beings. And I'm just, I'm so, I'm so, so interested in as much as you're interested. And it just made me so happy that we share common interests. Yeah. That aren't identical, but that are complimentary.

Totally. Which is really cool. I think it's awesome, man. And like, I think, yeah, you have the invisible college, right? you know, it's just actually this Robert Boyle term hearkening back to like, you know, 16th century, like the pre-enlightenment. And I take it now in the modern context and like the Jacques valet context, almost to mean like people who are like called to this stuff from some, I don't know, primordial like, you know, this just feels like it's part of the, you know, my life's mission or whatever.

And I love the fact that everybody's pulled the different aspects to it. You're pulled to getting to know the culture of, you know, the beings themselves. You have, you know, UAP Gerb who's like as good as anybody I know when it comes to tracking legacy program activities. And then, yeah, I try to sort of sense make on, you know, or figure out what's going on. But I also have very interesting, you know, deep interest in the gravity and time stuff. Yeah, the theoretics of it. The theory. Yeah.

You're just so. I love, I love hearing your brain. you know, when it comes to this stuff, especially when you get a new piece of information. You can see, I, I hear you sometimes. Like when you hear a new piece of information, you might not get this because he maybe edits this out of his own videos. But you go, uh-huh, mm-hmm, yeah, uh-huh, yeah.

And no one's saying anything. And that's just you making connections in your head. And you're like, mm-hmm, yeah, yep, yeah. And you can like, you're externalizing these, like actual connections, these like these neurons that are clicking together in your brain. It's fascinating to see. That's wonderful. I'd probably be doing that the entire time and not even speaking if I didn't have like a podcast.

Yeah. You know, but then and then you have to like, and the thing I sometimes struggle with is like you have to like have this canon in your head of like these different events. And sometimes I'm like, I don't even care about the specifics of a single event. I care about how they kind of like corroborate or comport with each other and like how you can build like a working model. And then sometimes I'm like, I'll do a podcast and I'm like, I got to study up on these cases. And I'm like, I don't, the details are like, you know, obviously they're extremely important to get right at a certain point. And then when you, but just to make the connections or whatever for me. And then I think there are great, you know, it's like encyclopedias of the actual like stories themselves.

and like that has tremendous value too. But yeah, that's funny that you said. Yeah, I like that. I can see you in real time making amazing connections. It's fun to see. It's fun to watch your brain function. Well, I hope they're real connections and I hope we make some real progress.

I think we are. I think it was slow and steady. Yeah. And we have some interesting projects on the horizon. Oh, yeah. Which we got a call after this to hop on a meeting. Dude, I'm so psyched for that. And that's not only, you know,

we're both interested in this particular story. story. But I think it shows our different skill sets, too, because, like, you're just so much better at, like, the, like, production, like, movie-making aspect of all of this than I am. And then, you know, yeah, I think I can add some, like, you know, deep research chops and stuff. And it's going to be great. Definitely. And this will be, you know, you've told me as well, you've confided that, like, you know, YouTube for you is, you know, a means to getting to the truth. Yeah. Right. You use YouTube as that for you to like give yourself an audience that it allows you to have these conversations, other people, so you can get closer to the truth.

Totally. And I don't know. I just think I just think it's I just think it's really cool what it is you're doing and your path and how much love and actual genuine curiosity, human curiosity that you have. And you represent a lot of people. You represent a lot of people who are curious. And that's, I think, why people, um, gravitate towards your content because they recognize their own curiosity through your absolute amazing breadth of knowledge as well and and you you represent them you represent them but on a scale that that a lot of us can't you know get to we can't I don't see myself you know as being that knowledgeable ever on these things but I'm glad that someone that I trust does well that's so nice you to say I mean I think I'm standing on the shoulders of giants

and people like, you know, Stanton Friedman and even on the, you know, investigative reporting side, James Fox and Ross Colt, I like, those guys are, and they've been doing it for decades. And so it's like very easy for me to like come in now and it's like a popular topic. So I feel very grateful there. And then, uh, yeah, I mean, like I said, I just, I think, uh, your storytelling ability and, and production and stuff like, I think, I think my, on the, on those vectors, I pale in comparison to you. And so it's just beautiful to play. And, um, it's just beautiful to play. any part in this. And I think there are different stages of the funnel as far as like people's interest in the thing. I truly think, uh, your show and I've told you this point blank before, I think it's going to be like the biggest show on the top as far as surface area. It's going to introduce so many people to it. And that's a, you know, uh, indispensable value as well.

So I appreciate the kind words. And I appreciate you saying that. And if it gets more people interested and if it gets more people to that next level, you know, of interest, I think, then that's good. You know, we've talked about this before, but, you know, you have the Y files who's covering that broad. Yeah. Who's great, by the way.

Yeah. I think he's awesome. Absolutely, because he's really getting a lot of people into the topic, much more than, you know, we could combine. For sure. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And then as that pyramid gets a little bit narrower in terms of people's interests and niche

interest of the topic, you know, we're kind of, I feel like we're all kind of guiding that audience to ultimately. you know, whatever is on the peak of that pyramid. Yes. Collectively, like, we're all doing our part. Rising tide raises all ships, you know. Fully agree. And I think it's, yeah, it's just a beautiful thing.

And, like, nobody should kind of want, it's like, Lord of the Rings. Because you're really, you're going for, like, sacred truth. So you should never want to be, like, the person to, like, put the ring on, you know? You want, like, this kind of collegial, like, you know, consortium to, you know, kind of say, like nobody should put the ramp, but yeah, maybe we can figure it out,

makes progress. Whose euphology's Gullum? All right. Oh, that's hilarious. I can think of a few, man, but I'm not going to say any names. Yeah,

yeah. Are we talking about physically or, okay. We're going to, we're going to go to the intern questions. If you guys want to become an intern, by the way, it's five bucks a month to get all sorts of extra content.

And one of the extra perks is, I pick three questions from the intern. So we get to ask to our lovely guests. So I've cured. I've generated these for you today. Cool. And here we go. Here's the first one.

And I don't know who this is, but I'm going to have to apologize. I have to go look at, because there's only 132 characters on this thing, so sometimes. No worries. Yeah, they get cut a little bit, but. All good. So I'll read it behind. Oh, I had to. Yep, I have to turn on that camera.

Okay. This is an intense question. Yeah. You find out you have three days left to live. You're in perfect health. Walk us through your last 72 hours. Oh, here we go. A irons.

A irons. A irons. All right. Hitting me hard, Airons. I don't know. You know, I think spend it with my family, for sure. Like, I'd just be with the people I'm closest with. And then I try to get my friends to come and just hang out and reminisce.

I mean, I don't know what else. I mean, the most important thing in life is, like, your relationships, I think. So that's, I think, what I would do. And that sounds kind of lame. But, like, I probably wouldn't be, like, working. out. Yeah. And then I wouldn't, I wouldn't do some like, you know, Hail Mary, like go to Japan and hike

Mount Fuji or your roller coast. That feels like nihilistic. I think it's like just, you know, be with the people you love the most. Yep. Great answer. And I agree. No, that's the perfect answer. It's the only answer.

I think so too. Yeah, right. I think a younger me would have said, well, I got a bucket list of like things to accomplish. You know, I wanted to road trip here or go paragliding or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I think a younger me would have did not. the reality, I would have said, create some, you know, magic pill that, you know,

allowed me to survive. And, you know, I don't know. Yeah. That's a deep question. Definitely deep. Next here. This is a good one, too. Obi-1 Shinobi.

Nice. Shook your epistemology the most and how slash why. Oh, wow. It's such a good question. It's the experiencers. It's people like. Mike Masters who had, you know, a very strange, interesting experience at a conference in Arizona where he was like downloaded information from what he thought were people from the

future. And one of these people is like a person who like has a social security number, like is a person with like a name and like downloaded the information into it. So that like that was fascinating. Because I was like, wait, so you thought, you know, it's all like you're experiencing kind of an abduction like experience but it was from another person and that guy is like yeah i don't know what goes on with my brain sometimes so that was fascinating because it wasn't just like it was like we're avatars of some higher stuff and like occasionally for in his case something takes over so that was fascinating whitley streber where it's just like dude like he has he thinks he has like a hybrid child that chain smokes that occasionally like goes would go into his house with his wife and like sleep on the

couch and stuff so i'm like stuff like that where i'm like i don't know what to make of it and And he has an implant in his ear and like, I felt the implant. The implant feels very strange, but I have no idea, again, what to make of that. So that, that's next level. And then Mario Woods as well, who is 1977 Ellsworth Air Force Base. And he, you know, wakes up nine miles away from, he sees a UFO, wakes up nine miles away from the base. And also just, it's just such, the amount of detail he has is remarkable of like this sort of beehive of little grays. like doing all sorts of little tasks in the craft and then like engaging in this sort of

biomedical experiment on him and then this kind of tall gray that's in charge overseeing the whole operation and and then him having marks on his body you know it's it's always the experiencers that I think mess me up the most yeah yeah and I I mean that's that's been my pretty much what's been happening to me as well every time I read of a new experience yeah or I see an interview and you know you get to look at their eyes or or even meet them in person, even better. It's, to me, hold so much more weight. Yeah.

Than a redacted file or whatever. This is like, oh, it's a human being that was changed due to an event. And often they're just like such good people. They hold like, Mario had his cue clearance for 20 years after that. He was like working at Sandia National Labs. Like, do you think if the government didn't think this was a normal thing to happen, which it is, they would let a guy, if this was a unique experience. And he's saying that little grays implanted a thing in him. Do you think that they wouldn't fire the guy from like, you know, the highest DOE clear thing, you know? So that or Mike

Masters is a professor to this day at Montana Tech or, you know, and they kind of like support a lot of the stuff that he's doing. They love it. You know, so I think, I think there's, that's always extremely interesting as well. Makes it more credible. Makes them really more credible where the experience is completely, you know, isolated from, like the rest of their life. They're just like these high agency, like good people. They're really good people. They just don't seem like liars at all. And yeah, I don't know.

Mario Woods made no money off of this stuff. It's not like a UFO per. You know, he just, he just wants to get the story out. And he's such a nice guy. Like, all these people are very nice, good people. You go to lunch with them and hang out with them. And it's like, I know you're not lying. It's a hard pill to swallow, man.

It is. You think about all that stuff because like partially, you know, we talked a little bit about this yesterday where like I'll find out that, oh, they discovered a new exoplanet or that a bacteria was found on one of the moons of one of the planets. Yeah. Right. No, I'll get partially a little excited and I'll be like, oh, cool. And I go, wait a wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

People are getting abducted. Well, it's so funny. They're like all these narratives of disclosure and like what's really in vogue right now is like the Mars. Like there was life on Mars a million years ago. Yes. And so it's like that is. It's amazing, but it's also like you have stuff going on on Earth right now. But I think it's more palatable.

So I don't think it's valueless. The fact that with the Mars thing, you have like Xenon 129 and Argon 40, which only seem to show up around nuclear blasts. Oh, really? Yeah. And then you have water crevices all over Mars, which I think even conventional astronomers would say that it probably had a biosphere at some point in a magnetosphere that maybe it was stripped from. You know, it was stripped. Right. And then you have ALH 884-001, which was this asteroid found in Antarctica that Clinton made an announcement on because it had, you know, it had carbon.

It had life. It had fossilized bacteria, polycyclic hydrocarbons on it. And again, I don't think anybody would argue with that finding. Yeah. So you have this mosaic of like, you know, and then you have, you know, then you have to go in the slightly lower probability of Joseph McMonigel, who. who's our, like, number one remote viewer who definitely saved our ass, the U.S., I mean, in geopolitical situations, you know, elsewhere, is saying that, A, he was, you know, he was tasked with seeing something, you know, looking at Mars a million years ago and he sees this pyramid and beings that were, like, twice the size of humans. And you have to ask why they even asked him to look at a million years, like, did they have. Yeah, that was DOD or DIA or, yeah. It was DIA.

I think it was DIA. Yeah. And you have this nuclear scientist that has worked at Lawrence Livermore and Sandia, who I just had on my podcast named John Brandenburg. He's a PhD's super smart. And he was looking at all this Mars stuff, along with Richard Hoagland, who's a little more controversial. And he was looking at it from the existence of these isotopes, you know, that shouldn't exist without, you know, the nuclear blast or whatever. And there are artificial structures. Well, you tweeted one that Joe Rogan retweeted.

That's like, you know, been verified at the highest levels that, you know, and he said, Brandon Berg said that Carl Sagan called him. And he was like, John, why are you causing so much trouble? Like, what's up, man? And so I don't know. I think that's all, it's very fascinating. And I don't know if that, you know, on one level, maybe it's like way less interesting than like abductions happening on earth.

But it's if there's like a whole subset of humanity that's just not going to believe the data set that you have here, no matter what, no matter how many. interviews you do, you know, how robust the data is, then maybe it is a good, you know, first foray into disclosure. Is it though, is it more believe, more or less believable? Like, like, like, that's, um, maybe I struggle to really measure that, but is it more believable to think that there is, there have been possible other generations, other civilizations that have been completely wiped out over and over and over again for the past millions and millions of years, or that people are visiting us for the first time.

Yeah. You know, which is more unbelievable. I think, you know, if you were to run some like Drake-like equation or Fermi paradox on it. The past civilization would be more believable, right? Would be more believable. But I don't think that's why it's more believable to most people. I think it's more believable because it doesn't give them an allergic reaction. Right, because they don't have to deal with anything.

Yeah, it doesn't sound like a horror novel. Yeah. It's not this visceral thing. It's like, you know, it's like we scientists have studied. Ancient. Whatever. And this isotope. You say the word isotope.

And they're like, oh, but they don't care about the actual isotope or whatever. But like, you know, it's not real first principles thinking going on. It's like what is more acceptable to your own, you know, biases. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, the more, the more, the closer you look, the more evidence we find anyways of something. Right.

we're not finding less evidence of something. Yeah. You know, that's also just like a constant here. That's true. Like, no matter where you look. Yeah. Whether you're looking here in the oceans and the ground and the mountains or in space in low orbit and out of orbit on other planets, on our moon outside of our galaxy coming into the, you know, whatever, we're not seeing less evidence. Yeah.

I agree. And it's accelerating. And I would, you know, I would bet a lot of money that in our life, our understanding of humanity and. its place in the cosmos is going to fundamentally shift. Yeah, I think so too. And I bet, I bet Mick West three years ago, I think it was like $10,000, or I tried to bet him $10,000. And then he wanted to make it $1,000, which I should get the best odds in the world on this particular bet, which I was saying. And if he really believes what he's selling.

Skin in the game. That's all the matter. Seriously, dude. That's all the hell. I know. And I said, you know, we'd get like, uh, make it $100,000. Evidence of non-human intelligence. Yeah, right?

Non-human intelligence propulsed, you know, craft. And we made it like, you know, it would be like 80% polling of like general society, including academia or whatever, as like the market. Because it's really impossible to like. So I think it's an insane bet for me to make it one-to-one odds three years ago. Insane. This is before Grush came out. Before Grush, yeah.

And I did no Grush at the time. So maybe that's a insider betting. Yeah, right. Did you text him after Grush came out? Where you like, hey, Nick? Hey, how's it looking now? Yeah, was it where close to 50-50? What's going on?

Even then the odds are sliding from like a bill jillion to one against me to like, yeah, like maybe I had some asymmetric knowledge to like, you know, a million to one. No, still, it's still insane odds. You know, so, yeah, I don't know. It's surprising, though, that Mick wouldn't take a 10K bet like that. No, it's absurd. Yeah, right? Put your money where your mouth is. That's very telling.

I agree. Have you ever brought it up to him since? Yeah, we had a debate. I hosted a debate between him and Merrick Von. Did you bring up during that debate? I was like, I was like, hey, man, we had a debate. And he was like, well, you know, I don't like to gamble and I moved it down to 1K. And I was like, well.

Still gambling. Yeah. And it should be like, you should, you should, money in the bank, you know. You should put your entire net worth behind that. You should put your entire net worth behind that. The way that you're slinging. Totally. You know.

I'm also like, I'm pretty confident on this in a long time scale. But what I'm betting is historical. anomaly, not only on the order of the Copernican revolution, like, greater than that. Like, why at this time? And maybe we've known this at times and past. So maybe I'm framing this the wrong way. But like it is, you know, at the very best, like a, you know, five, 10,000 year cycle of like ever having interactions with these things. And that's on the, that's on the optimistic side. So it's like an extremely risky bet for me to make. Extremely risky. Yeah. But I like it.

I figured at the very least it would be a good, you know, fun story or whatever. Great story. Even greater if you win the money. That's right. Yeah, although he lowered it. Yeah. It becomes the most irrelevant story, actually, if you win the money. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. And it doesn't pales in comparison to the thing itself. Exactly. Yeah. The last one here by Dan Eastwood, a specific event in time. Which moment would you choose and why? That's such an interesting. question i love that well this is i don't know why i'm immediately thinking this but um this woman went on

sean ryan this uh this remote viewer do you know what i'm talking about uh yeah angela ford angela for yeah she's amazing she uh yeah she the crucifixion yeah and that reaction she had where she's like i've seen it but i can't talk about it and i found that really fascinating i don't know if i'd remote view the crucifixion um but i did i just be a wild thing to see that would be a wild thing to see um god that's It's so fascinating. Well, it depends because don't you have to know the thing as real. Like, I could do some biblical event or whatever, but I don't know if it happened.

Right. You can't verify. But let's assume that you're Pat Price. Okay. And you just know it to be true. You just know it to be true. Right. I would want to see Jesus going up on the cloud or in the Book of Acts or I'd want to see

the wheels of Ezekiel, you know, the Ezekiel's chariot. I think those are very interesting. Or I'd want to see that St. Francis of Assisi interaction with the seraphim. You know, I think those are very interesting to me. The book of Enoch, if that happened, you know, you go up to meet Metatron, the angel. Like, I think things like that. Utsurobune, the Japanese, the lady that came out of the UFO, that was floating in the water.

Whoa. Like the 1600s or something? I would love to see that. There's paintings of her. There's a red-haired lady in Japan. Oh, wow. Coming out of a saucer like, they said vessel like a ship in the water. And she came out on land.

She spoke a funny language. They didn't understand her. And she went back in and they never saw her again. There's like a whole legend about her. That's amazing. Yeah, Utsurobune. That would be awesome. Yeah.

That would be so crazy and cool. But yeah, I think something like that, but I don't know. I mean, there's so many. I mean, Holloman? Yeah, I mean, Hallman Air Force Base Lane. That would be extremely interesting. That, I mean, hmm. Yeah.

Like if you had a chronelizer to like actually watch something. Yeah. You know what I mean? Or the treaty, the treaty between Eisenhower. Oh, the Eisenhower. Where he says he has a dental appointment and Palm Springs. The Griata Treaty or whatever. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Yeah, like, so I don't know. There's so many interesting ones, but I would go the more mystical religious route, I think. Yeah, Buddha. What about you? How would you answer that? Hmm. I don't know.

I would like, you know what, I don't know. I think I'd like to see, I'd love to see the Phoenix lights. Yeah. I think it's just because Phoenix lights are like Virginia, only because it's, it's just so close. It's in my lifetime. Yeah. And I feel for some reason that that's more significant to me. Mm.

For, I don't even know why, just intuitively. Like, even when I heard about the stories, I was like, this is happening. Like, even Ariel, like, these all happen around the same time, which is wild. But, like. That is wild. Yeah, 96. And then Ariel was 94. 96.

They were both 96? Yeah. Ariel was 94, I think, in Phoenix was 96. Yeah. And then Vargina was 96. Virginia was 96. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you, did you know that Kurt Russell claimed to have seen the Phoenix Lights? Yes. He was flying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, crazy. It is crazy.

I had a guy actually DM me. I was supposed to hit him back. We did talk for a bit, but he said he was hiking on the mountain that it went over, him and his brother. And so he was like, he could have hit it with a rock. And he's like, when people describe it being a mile long, he's like, that's exactly what it felt like when he's like, that's exactly what it felt like when he's, you're underneath it. It's like you can't like even see the end of it. It's like a mile long. And he was describing these massive like these holes like portholes that went in like cones on the inside and it was like this low, loud, vibrant hum. And he was like he was terrified and they were

just stunned. And he was hiking up the mountain like that went over and they got to watch it for minutes go over their head. Yeah. And he's like, yeah, calm anytime. He's like if you want to interview. He's like he was actually hiking up there. I think. this year because it's like the anniversary of when they saw it or whatever him and his brother and they were going back up to the hike to like commemorate it wow it was like so paradigm shifting for him wow that is unbelievable yeah Phoenix lights because it's just this giant silent black boomerang like I mean there's something so ominous and terrifying and dreadful about that I don't know that'd be cool to see it would be super cool to see and who was the um was the governor of Arizona

oh yeah right what was his name yeah I forget his name the guy who who who brought out the fake alien or whatever. He brought out the fake alien and I think he had been Air Force. Yeah. And then he admitted they did that just because they didn't know how to deal with anything. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, those are those are the questions from the interns.

Thank you guys for asking those questions. Really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you. Jesse, it's been a pleasure, man. Chris, this has been awesome. And, yeah, I appreciate you hosting me also. This is just such a cool little spot you live in.

And, yeah, it's beautiful. And it's amazing to enter your life for a couple days. Thank you. Thank you for entering my life. And I look forward to entering yours. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to go hang with you and your crew soon. And you're coming on the podcast.

Yep. Yeah. We'll do that as well. Yeah. Yeah, I hope people enjoyed this conversation between us because it's exactly kind of what I felt like I wanted it to be. Cool. You know, there's certain people out there.

They're like, well, what's the, what's the big thing, you know, that you're going to uncover? Like, what's this and that? Like, to me, it's all secondary to, you know, getting to know someone and really talking about the things that matter to us as, you know, people looking into this stuff. And I think it's really important for people to hear that. And so I hope you guys enjoyed it. Anything else? You want to say? No, man.

I'm honored. I really enjoyed it. It was fun. And it was more, uh, yeah, it's funny. I feel like a lot of other podcasts are like, performance. Like you have to like get in these like sound bites. Yeah. And this was very fun and and chill.

And I loved it. But we also, I think, talked about a lot of trippy, crazy stuff. Yeah. And left breadcrumbs, I think, for a lot of people on, you know, who are a certain level of depth. There are certain references that I think, you know, the average person might not pick up. But that are, you know, I think pretty, pretty interesting. Definitely. Yeah.

All right. Thanks, Jesse. Appreciate you guys. If you want to go support Jesse and what he does, you can go follow. obviously he's subscribed to his YouTube, do all that. But he's also got a platform on WOP, which is really cool. And you do some like high level discussions over there, some future live streams going on as well. Absolutely. Very active over there on WAP. And it's a, it's a subscription base. But it's like if you're really into this stuff, I mean, if you're not

over there, then you're not really into this stuff. Because it's, you know, the guests that got lined up and the conversations you guys are having are pretty high level. And, you know, like I said, if you're really, really into Jesse's stuff and you haven't signed up, definitely. go sign up you won't you won't regret it appreciate you man all right guys thanks for watching see it peace