Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Andrew Ross Sorkin (on stock market crashes)

Episode Date: November 19, 2025

Andrew Ross Sorkin (1929: The Inside Story of the Greatest Crash in Wall Street History) is a financial columnist, TV anchor, and author. Andrew joins the Armchair Expert to discuss a kid telling him when he was young that god drew him wrong, actually working with Aaron Sorkin (no relation) on his show The Newsroom, and landing an unofficial internship at The New York Times as a senior in high school. Andrew and Dax talk about why his motto as a finance journalist was ‘chasing interesting,’ understanding not trusting the stock trading system because it doesn’t deserve to be trusted, and his tips for getting ChatGPT to tell the truth with verifiable facts. Andrew explains writing an exposé on going into debt to buy stocks, shocking and unexpected stories of fallout from the stock market crash of 1929, and parallels he sees in current financial trends accompanied by an argument for transparency.Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Buck Rogers and I'm joined by Gene Lightyear. Hi. I am a fan of our guest. Me too.

I'm just a legit fan. Andrew Ross Sorkin. I met him at a conference one time and we had a couple lunches together. and I just I just really adore him and he's prolific as a motherfucker yes this kid was working at the New York Times in high school I know I find this to be so it's such a sweet story it is he's such a funder kid in a cutie pie Andrew is an award-winning journalist for the New York Times and a co-anchor of Squawk Box CNBC's signature morning program and of course he wrote the ever popular too big to fail loved it oh what a what a what a book what a show they

made out of it. He's also the co-creator of billions. Whoa. I don't think I brought that up in the interview. Do you know that? No. He's got his little fingers and everything. Yeah. He has a new book that is out right now called 1929 inside the greatest crash in Wall Street history and how it shattered a nation. This is, as he says, and I think we all agree, we all know about the great collapse and stock market crash, but we don't actually, we don't know anything. We just know what happen on that day. Yeah. And there's a lot of juicy stuff surrounding it. Yes. And it's a, it's a thick book. He really gets into it. Before we get into the episode, we have merch. Oh, I'm wearing a merch. Oh, I'm wearing a really cute merch shirt. Yeah, it's two cherries holding, I think they're holding

hands and they're happy. They're waving. They might be in a parade, like a cherry parade. Yeah, it's really cute. We got some really, really good merch coming your way on November 14th. November 14th, incredible quality. Can't get over the quality. No, the quality's outrageous. And the fit is nice. I'm just realizing for the first time. This very sim, you know who has a cherry festival, Traverse City, Michigan.

Wow. Why aren't we invited to that? I was just thinking, where would there be a cherry parade? And by God, I know where there would be a cherry parade. And as you may recall, I went there one time in seventh grade in the summer between eighth, and I won a cherry seed spitting contest. It's just one of those things when you look back in life and it all makes sense, you know? I was on the news and I'm telling you, that was the greatest.

Were you ever on TV as a kid? Yeah. Well, in high school. For the cheer. Yeah. Isn't it great? Yeah, it's great. That's really fun.

I couldn't believe it. I felt like I was living in someone else's life. We got to get into the app. Okay, please enjoy Andrew Ross Sorkin. Armchair expert is proud to have Alexa Plus as our presenting sponsor. The all new Alexa Plus is your smart. proactive AI assistant. Just chat naturally about anything

and watch your to-do list disappear. It learns your style and anticipates what's next across Echo, fire TV, and more. Learn more at Amazon.com slash new Alexa. We are supported by Peloton. You know how life gets especially chaotic this time of year?

Work, kids, trying to remember what day it is. For me, finding time to move can feel impossible, but that's where Peloton comes. in. Peloton has completely reimagined cross-training with the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. It's Peloton's most elevated equipment yet, real-time guidance, endless ways to move, and it helps you get more done in less time. I like the time crunch aspect of it because sometimes I only got 20 minutes to squeeze something in. This is perfect. With Peloton IQ,

you get personalized plans, form correction, and weight suggestions that help you train smarter and stay consistent no matter how busy life gets. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push, and go. Explore the new Peloton cross-training treadplus at one peloton.ca. He's an unchained square. He's an ultravenspah. He's an uncharted. Oh, my goodness.

Hi, this is very exciting. How are you? I'm great. Oh, my God. How are you doing? Even maybe taller than I remember. Look at these muscles, these mussels. Hi.

How are you? Good. These mussels and pranks. I'm going to double fist the coffee and liquid death at the same time. What do you got going on that blender bottle there? Free workout and creatine. You know what I didn't bring with me today? What?

I should actually ask you for some. A little creatine. I find the creatine, especially for brain health, weirdly. That's what they're saying. That's all the rage right now. The cognitive benefits. No. I kind of am interested because I have heard that.

It, like, makes your brain work better. I feel a little bit more on with it. Caffeinated? No. Wow. We love you for this. We know each other. Yeah, we do.

It's good. He touched Sheddafrannison's hair. I like to tell you all that. So, yeah, the creatine thing, it's not like coffee. Sharp? Everything seems to be working a little better. Interesting. Well, the study that came out.

that everyone's so excited about why it's now all the rage for cognition is specifically if you're sleep deprived. Yes. It's really, really helpful. I'm sleep deprives all the time. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Do you have children? Three.

Are we on here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. Because I'm very honest about what I think. We first met. Basically, the whole conversation was about how to get ripped. Yeah. How to feel better.

The mental health, the physical health stuff, the kids. I think Silicon Valley has tainted it a little bit. Like, it has fallen into this biohacking category. Whereas just pursuing feeling as good as a human can feel seems like a virtuous goal. Yeah. Whereas it seems to have been weaponized a little bit in our current culture. Okay, so we have met. We hung out at a conference.

We did. Can I say I was so excited to meet you? It was like crazy. Oh, well, thank you. What were you excited about? Because I've been watching you guys and listening to you guys and I just had this great conversation, which is sort of like what's happening now. Easy peasy?

Yeah, yeah. We had a really, really fun lunch. and I enjoyed the hell out of meeting you. And I found out about collobo. That's a tough word for me to pronounce. Colaboma. Colaboma, which I'm fascinated by. I think it's the coolest feature other than heterochromia,

which is really cool too, or two different color eyes. But did you notice that Andrew has this wonderful, my left eye has what's called a colaboma. Coloboma. My pupil looks, can people say it looks like a cat? Can I get a little closer to you mind? It's kind of elliptical more than it is.

Come over. Come over. Yeah, get in close. Oh, wow. Don't you love it? Well, thank you. It's funny to me that he noticed it. Some people notice it immediately like I'll be like the checkout counter somewhere and someone say, oh my God, what's going on with your eye?

Uh-huh. And then my best friend from second grade didn't notice it until I was 32 years old. Yeah. Is he legally blind? He is not legally blind. He just sees your essence. Some people think I have different color eyes. Right.

It's a common thing with that condition. So, yeah, I can see and I can see fine. And I only tell you that because sometimes people send me emails. They'll see you on TV and they'll say, I think something's wrong with their eye. You need to go right to the doctor. Something like that. I should tell you, by the way, since I just said that, maybe I shouldn't tell the story. When I was fourth or fifth grade, there was a substitute teacher in the class and I, like a little bit of a clown.

Sure. And so in the middle of the class, I went, oh, good for you. And then what happened to my eye. I think something happened to my eye. Yes. Substitute teacher comes over. Oh, no. Then they have to send me to the nurse.

I got in trouble with my mother. But could I argue, you're going to deal with all the downside of this, which is having to answer the same question all the time. Like I put you through. And there should be some upside to it. So getting on a class, I definitely condone this. When I was young, it was not good. Well, because anything when you're young, right, that makes you different?

Right. And you had kids who'd make fun of you. I remember a kid, I won't name them, but a kid, I was in third grade, told me that God drew me wrong. Oh. I remember that. You don't like these things, and they hit you forever. Yeah, yeah.

It's straight. Here I am, 40 years old. I know. And I remember third grade. And did you say to him, is that how you think humans get here? God draws each one of us? I don't remember. That part I don't remember.

Yeah. I was more in that camp. I understand. I understand. So my hunch is that I could guess the two questions you get asked the very most in life. Which is? What's happening with your eye? Yeah.

Are you related to Aaron Sorkin? Are these the two things that you probably have fielded the most in your life? Oh, that's a great question. I definitely have been asked a lot about the eye. I definitely get the Aaron Sorkin question constantly. I imagine so much that on your Wikipedia, there's a line that says he is not related to Aaron. Yes, if Wikipedia has to say that,

that tells me a lot of people are curious. People call me Aaron. I get a lot of emails. Sure, sure. Start with Aaron. Aaron Ross Sorkin. I did John Stewart Show, the old version of John Stewart Show. At the beginning, he announced me as Andrew Ross Sorkin.

And at the end, he said, Aaron Ross Sorkin, everybody. Yeah. Yeah, me, yeah. Which is fine. I am very happy to be confused with Aaron. Sure. I ended up working for Aaron. You're also both from Westchester, no?

Both from Scarsdale, no less. I worked for him in the third season of the newsroom. As a consultant, that season, there was a merger. I'm supposed to be the business guy. So they were trying to figure out how to storyline around the merger of ACN, if you remember that. Oh, yeah. We loved that show. And so I worked with him, and it was a ball.

And he claimed, to me at least, I don't know if he was being nice. He said, you know, I get emails all the time from people who say, how is it possible that you're writing all of these shows and writing these articles in the paper? Yeah, okay, I believe that. Okay. So, Westchester, yes. Dad's a lawyer and mom is a playwright.

Originally a children's playwright. She used to do plays with me. You would perform in the ones she wrote. I would perform. Yes, and like workshops are on stage. Both. We even wrote a couple sort of together. I wouldn't say we wrote them together.

I would sort of come up with ideas and she would actually then go implement them. That's sweet. adorable. Were the people in your town, like Scarsdale High School you went to, were there billionaires and stuff? I think it's super fancy today. I don't think it was that fancy then. I think most of my friends, their parents were some lawyers, some doctors. Like upper middle class. I didn't know financiers, hedge fund guys. I don't think that that necessarily but they're there now. Definitely now. Okay. Okay. 100% there. That's why I have the confusion.

Now, I know people who live there who have their own planes and all the things and all of that. When I was a kid, we were sitting in, you know, 17C in the middle. I don't even think I knew people necessarily who were sitting in the front of the plane. Yeah. Okay. So that's great because I think what's unique about some places like that is like you could have a lawyer father and also feel broke, which I think is a uniquely American thing. We interview a lot of people. It's like they felt fucking broke.

They were doing great. But they grew up in an area with billionaires. Like their classmates were taking private jets to ever. husband at Christmas and they weren't. I think that's such a weird phenomenon to be like upper middle class and feel broke. Maybe you'll disagree with this. I think everybody feels broke. I think you're right

for the most part. Yeah. I think weirdly you know, I've been covering a lot of the billionaire set for years and so many of them never feel like they've achieved whatever the highest goal is. Because I guess number one is the goal. It's currently

Elon or it's currently Larry Ellison, whoever it is. I think it's the movie Wall Street 2. Not as good, unfortunately, as Wall Street 1. I'm shocked. And there's a moment. I think it's Michael Douglas and Shai LeBoff or maybe I'm going to get them confused. Somebody looks at the other one and says, what's your number?

As in like, what's enough? When are you going to feel like you've got in there? Yes. And he looks back and he says, what's your number? And he goes, more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a sickness. Yeah, it is.

And I only say that because there's obviously different levels of struggle. There are people who are really struggling on a daily basis. But oddly enough, even the people I know at what we think of as the top also think that they are struggling. And I know that sounds so weird, but I look at both of you as super successful.

Thank you. So I'm projecting onto you that you are super successful. And I'm going to bet that you probably don't actually feel that successful. I guess it depends on how you qualify success. I feel that I'm successful, but I don't feel that I'm safe. I'm with you. But interestingly, I was going to say,

I know people who have billions and billions of dollars who feel that exact same way. They still don't feel safe and they still feel either they have something to prove or that they feel like they're at the top of the mountain and they just don't want to fall off. It's holding on to it. Back to you. You go to this school. While you're at the school, I guess you're in your junior year. You intern at the New York Times.

Senior year. Okay, how does one get to the point where they're hellbent already by 17 years old to get an internship at the New York Times? Okay, so when I was a freshman in high school, I wanted to work for the school newspaper. I wanted to be a reporter for the paper, actually. Has you seen a movie or something? No, I just thought reporting sounded cool, see you cool. However, the paper, I don't want to say I was lazy, but if you wanted to be a reporter, you had to take a class. and they had the class on Friday afternoons after school was over.

And I was like, I don't want to do that. So they said you could sell advertising for the paper. And I said, oh, I'll do that instead. So I started to sell advertising for the paper. And I'm actually pretty good at selling advertising for the paper. And I think to myself, I want to sort of like go up the ladder of this newspaper, but I'm still a freshman. They're not really taking me seriously.

So I said, I'm going to start my own magazine. So I started a magazine when I was a sophomore in high school to distribute originally just in the high school. And then we started distributing it in other high schools. What was the name of this? Called the Sports Page. magazine. The principal hated me. She was so scared that I was going to go take the advertising from the sanctioned school newspaper and steal it and bring it to my little magazine that she said you can distribute your magazine, but you can only do so if you get advertising only from people

who do not pay taxes inside Scarsdale. So you basically had to find. I question whether she had the authority to make this declaration. But I was so crazy that I sort of took this on as like a personal challenge. You wanted to say fuck you and fill it with great advertisers. So I start calling up advertisers in New York City. It was a sports magazine. I wanted weedies because Michael Jordan was on the cover and champion

sweatshirts and Nike. I call up agencies in New York City to get them all to do this and they actually do it. It's cute. Yeah. And what's an ad in the magazine at that time? What are they throwing you $1,500 or something? I think a full page was like $900. It was an easy app. We got in a little bit of trouble towards the end because we

tried to over-expand way too quickly when the ads. by the way, we're then costing thousands of dollars, and the whole thing went under by the time I was a senior. But there was a moment where the New York Times wrote a little article about me when I was a little kid. And I used to read this guy, Stuart Elliott, in the New York Times, who was the advertising columnist religiously. Other people would read the front page about politics,

or they'd go to sports section or whatever, and I was like going to page C6 to read about advertising. So that when I went to these meetings in the city, my mother would drive into the city, I could pretend like I knew what I was talking about. Yeah. You're a real wonder kid. This is great.

Yeah, yeah, so adorable. was so enamored with him. I didn't know who he was, but I was enamored with what he did. So I wrote in these wild letters, and I'd call him and try to get a meeting with him. And one day, I'd go home in the middle of school during lunchtime to call because I didn't want to call from a pay phone. And one day, I called, and he picked up the phone. And I literally thought God was on the other side. I almost put the phone down. And he said, look, kid, we don't really have an internship program. We can't do it, but maybe I can take out to lunch. Oh, that's so nice. This is Nirvana and Megonatour. Anyway, working with this other editor and a whole bunch of other people, they said, you can come, but it's sort of secretly because New York Times is a union shop.

They didn't want unpaid interns right around. That makes sense. So I used to go every day and get a visitor pass. The third week that I'm there, I used to just stand around and get coffee and Xerox. I was having so much fun. And there was a woman who had no idea hold I was. I was wearing a tie probably with a blazer on. And she overheard me talking about the internet back when we would write modem, comma, a device that transfers to date over a device.

just stayed over a phone line. And she said, why do modems make that noise that they make? You remember that? Yeah. You know that screechy thing. And I explained it to her. And she said, write an article about that. I went back to Stewart and I said, I just got to sign this article.

And he said, you're in fucking high school. Go tell her what's going on here. And I sort of somehow convinced him that we weren't going to tell her exactly what was going on. And I wrote the article. Stewart edited it. And they put it in the paper. Come on. That was the beginning of my career.

Has there ever, you've had a lot of accomplishments. Has anything ever compared to picking up the New York Times the first time and seeing an article you wrote in it? That was pretty much the greatest. However, interestingly, I told them my friends, my article was coming out, and they didn't put back then a byline on it. They put special to the New York Times with no name.

So then my friends were like, this is really you, it's not you. And then fascinatingly, there was this thing at the Times called the Greenies. They used to put these memos together with examples of what they thought were the best articles of the week, but then also ones that were terrible. You do not want to be in this

because the odds were not in your favor. And there were comments on the articles, like, you know, is English really your first language? I mean, that kind of was tough. This little article was being put in the thing for being one of the articles that they really liked that week. Oh, wow.

And they went in search of who wrote the article. Oh, my gosh. It's a who done it now. So then we had to say, and everyone was a little worried that I was going to get kicked out. And then they said, why don't you stay for the rest of the summer?

And that's how I began my career. Oh, my God. What a story. I love when go-getters win. Yeah, when they get. Thank you. When the go-getters get. When the go-getters get.

So you go to Cornell out of high school, bachelor's of science and communications. By the time you graduate, you have 71 published articles in the New York Times. I have seen that on Wikipedia. I think it's probably right. Something maybe like that. Who counted these articles?

I should go back and look. At some point in college, I guess you're a junior year, you go over to London. And you really start focusing on mergers and acquisitions and business. So why that from a social? Sports magazine. Why are you so drawn to business? I just became fascinated, not by business itself. I mean, I always thought business was interesting, but I thought if you looked at the world

through the prism of money, not in a cynical way, but just in a way of sort of following the money to follow that cliche, it almost explained everything. It explained not just business, but it explained to me politics. It explained sports. It explained history. There were so many pieces of it that when you start to think about what motivates people. I was going to say, the most fundamental thing is humans are incentive-based creatures. And money's the incentive. It's the metric for most things. So I just became fascinated by that.

And I think I was also fascinated by these characters. I always say I'm chasing interesting. And to me, at that time, in the world of business, Wall Street and all of these companies that were merging, there was sort of a merger boom happening. This is like 99. This is like 99. late 90s, every company in the world is merging every other day. There's this huge headlines.

To me, that was chasing interesting. That's where the action was. And there were these sort of bigger than life characters that were running these companies all with sort of, in some cases, shocking egos and other things. Yeah, they're generally eccentric and they're good characters. This is super interesting. And on the merger side, you have to have a lot of government oversight as well, no? So there was also sort of an intersection with politics and with policy.

So I just sort of liked it. And part of the game, if you will, was trying to figure out, could you get people to tell you about these deals before they actually happened? And if you could somehow convince somebody to tell you these things, then you would have like this fascinating scoop, and then everyone would read the article, and then he would create this sort of amazing virtuous circle. I imagine that's a huge challenge because it's almost implicitly kind of insider trader.

Kind of illegal. Not illegal. I shouldn't say it's illegal. because once it's disclosed, just to be 100% clear for anybody's listening, I don't buy individual stocks, anything like that ever. You never buy individual stocks? No, this is actually a big debate inside my family now. The rule at the New York Times and also at CNBC is no individual stocks, zero.

Oh, wow. You can buy funds and stuff? You can buy mutual funds and indexes and things like that. Yes, that's okay with the idea that you can't control any of it. The point is you don't want to have bought Apple and then Apple does something the next day And then even inadvertently, somebody says you've bought it for X reason because you knew that something was about to happen. Right. Or if you're heavily invested in Apple and you have a story that could be very detrimental.

For better or worse, I've written some of these articles or gone on television breaking news where the stock will go up 10% or go down 10% and you don't want to be around that. So I now have two 15 year old boys for twins like the culture. They're fascinated by all this stuff and they're like, Dad, can I buy this or could I do this? And I'm like, guys, you're not allowed to do this. Because of their relation to you or because of their age. Yeah, because I said, look, I said, Max, I have a son named Max and another son named Henry. And I said, guys, if you buy Apple and the same thing happens, even if it all is just by coincidence, we're screwed. Yeah, you're still connected.

We can't have that. So they go to Fan Duel, lesser of the two evils. So we have a friend who's probably going to be on the hook. So she created a fantasy stock thing with a couple of their friends. And she said that she would make a. up the companies? No, no, no. So, like, they fantasy pretended to be invested in Apple.

I got you. But if Apple goes up a lot, she's going to be on the hook to actually pay them one day. She's going to pay out. She claims that she's going to pay them. Oh, wow. So we'll see if that actually happened. Well, the house odds would say they're going to pay her probably. Yeah, I don't think she's going to take the money.

It's a one-way bet at the moment. That's nice. At what age is it once they hit 18, they can do their own thing? I don't know. We were actually talking about it. They were actually asking me, is this forever? I need to go talk to a lawyer. But by the way, this is what's happened.

You look at people in Congress or senators. Anybody who is in possession of or likely to have, quote, unquote, inside information, it gets super complicated with all the people around them. And as a result, my little family lives in sort of a nunnery as a result of that in terms of the stock market. It's tricky. I don't know. Then it's like no one around you at all can do anything. What about your friends?

Well, let's just say minimally, it's fucking crazy that someone that works out of newspapers is not allowed to own individual stocks, but that's someone who's way ahead of some decisions that are going to be made that will affect companies dramatically is not forbidden, is a little nuts. A little nuts. I think everyone could agree. Can the president own individual stocks? Everyone can.

They all can. My view is they should either have to have blind trusts or maybe some kind of disclosure program or maybe they can buy stuff, but then they have to hold it for a certain amount of time. I would be cool if you said you're buying X stock tomorrow and there's some letter that says, I am going to sell it 30 days from now.

But you actually say today that I'm selling in 30 days. So you have no control over why or when you're doing it. I think there's things you could put into the system to help it. All I want people to just trust the system. Yeah. And right now, we all do not trust the system. And we don't trust the system because the system doesn't deserve to be trusted. Right.

Earmark at the very end, I wonder if AI is going to neutralize everything. It's like everyone has an agent that's doing all the trading and the AIs are all equally brilliant. and have equal access to all the information? Does it just become a stalemate? I don't know. That's a really interesting question. By the way, that's a whole other question, not just about the stock market and trading.

It's about everything. White collar work is just going to go away. It's going to vanish. I just had an experience. My dad was a lawyer. Lawyers. So I was sent a contract two or three weeks ago. A little thing that I just had to look at.

I saw two or three things I didn't like. I thought, oh, I'll just forward it to my lawyer, who probably would have charged me $500,000, maybe $1,000 to look at it. I'm on an airplane and it had Wi-Fi. So I put it into chat GPT and I say, tell me everything that's good and bad in this. And it points out the three things that I noticed

and pointed out maybe two or three other things. It then said, would you like me to redline the contract? I said, sure. A prepare a counter it could do. So it does that. And then it says, would you like me to write a cover letter back to the people? It writes the most lovely letter. You could imagine.

It says, thank you so much for all the thought you put into this agreement. I've noticed a couple of provisions in here which seem somewhat asymmetric. Using big vocab. I made a couple of changes to it. Never sent this thing to the lawyer. So I now saved myself the $500,000. 45 minutes later, this AI generated letter,

these guys said, sure, that makes sense. So white collar is going to go first. But by the way, I'm a writer. I worry about writing. Okay, the other day, me and my friends heard a song at a restaurant and then we were singing it. And then the next day I was like, what was that song again? And I texted my friend.

She was like, fuck, I don't remember. We were trying to remember. couldn't. It was a whole thing. And I was like, oh, I kind of remember the basic tune. So I opened up chat and I hummed it. And I said, what is this song? And I think one of the lyrics is this. And it said, oh, it's Blab by Trishyro. And I was like, okay. And then I googled it. I was like, that's like, that's up. Right. Because it makes up stuff. It fully made that up. And I said, I don't think that's a song. And it said, it's a song. It's just a deep cut. And I was like, no, it's not. And then it said, oh, I'm sorry. And I was like, you

You're a liar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like humans. But it's good when you call them out because they lied to me one time and I call them out. Are you on paid chat GPT? I'm on paid. Okay, so the one thing, tell chat GPT. I've now done this.

Little news you can use. Say, only bring me back verifiable facts with links. Oh. Always never lie to me. And then say, remember that. I have found in the past couple weeks that it's actually started to do that for the most part. It's straightened up a little bit. I'm sure it can also get.

A little tricky. Yeah, you just can't blindly rely on it. No, no, no, no. Okay, so I want to blast through some highlights, which would include becoming a staff writer and the financial section of the New York Times for years, becoming a co-ancher of Squawk Box, starting deal book, and then writing, of course,

too big to fail, which then became an HBO show. These are enormous accomplishments that are coming very quickly. I don't know how one is the time. I still don't feel successful. Right. I was obsessed with Too Big to Fail the movie. Oh, God bless you. I don't know what happened.

It was one of those things that became like a nightling. Contagion. Yeah. I needed it to regulate my mental state or something. I watched it every night in college a lot. And all my roommates made fun of me. They're like, oh, my God. Wow.

Why is she watching this? They said she's too small to stop. Oh, yeah. Well, credit goes, by the way, to the great Peter Gould, who, by the way, back then, was a. staff writer on a little show that was just going into production called Breaking Bad. Oh, wow. And of course, Peter then

helped Vince Vaughn and they co-created Better Call Saul together. And then you came on Breaking Bad at the end. At the very end. You can talk about a merger. It was probably the highlight of my whole career. This actually is the highlight of my whole career. Because I was a Breaking Bad fanatic. In the penultimate episode, they built a scene. I'm not

actually physically in it. I'm just mentioned. Charlie Rose, who I'd watched my whole life and had been on his show and all the things. I love Charlie Rose. They created a fake scene where Charlie Rose was interviewing the couple that had created Grey Matter, if you remember, gray matter. And Charlie Rose sits there and intones something like, in an article in the New York Times, Andrew Ross Sorkin writes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was an amazing moment just to hear your name out of their mouths.

The whole thing was wild. I knew they were going to do this, but I didn't know the parameters of it. Peter had just sent me a note saying, this is going to happen. I might have had to actually sign my rights away for my name or something like that. Yeah, totally. Anyway, then I wrote an article to almost match what happened, and it became sort of like a viral sensation. Yes, yes, it was completely made up, but it was fun.

That's fun. Okay, so, a long ago was too big to fail? Book came out in 2009. The film came out in 11. Okay. Directed by the great Curtis Hanson, L.A. Confidential, Detroit. He's no longer with us, but he was a mention. is a very, very sweet man.

Okay, so I guess you get the idea for 1929. How long ago? I know you worked on it for about eight years. So what happened, honestly, was I wrote this book about the crisis in 08, and invariably people would say to me, can you compare for me what happened in 08 to this thing that happened in 29? And I'd kind of look at them with a blank stare and say, I really can't. Yeah.

Because you only knew the broad strokes, as most of us know. Most of us, we know something very bad happened in 29. We know there was a great depression. And that was about the sum total of my knowledge. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. We are supported by Alexa Plus. All right, let me tell you about something I'm genuinely excited to talk about, the all-new Alexa Plus. Look, we're all juggling a million things these days, and this thing is designed to actually make your life easier.

It's like having a conversation with someone who really gets what you need. Picture this. You're planning a night out, and instead of opening 12 different apps, you just have one conversation with Alexa, and it handles everything. Dinner reservations, entertainment, the works. It learns your style and puts thousands of services at your fingertips. What I love about this concept is how natural it feels. You're not barking commands.

You're just talking. And it works across your compatible devices, Echo, Fire TV, and more. It's your all-new, smart, proactive AI assistant, and honestly, the idea of having AI that actually anticipates what you need, that sounds pretty amazing to me. Check it out at Amazon.com slash new Alexa. We are supported by Cozy. Let me tell you about the time I tried to move my old sectional up three flights of stairs, two broken picture frames, one scuffed wall, and several questionable words later. I learned that furniture should not require an engineering degree to get into your home. That's exactly why I love cozy.

They've basically solved every furniture headache you can think of. Their pieces arrive in manageable boxes that actually fit through your door. Wild concept, right? And assembly is so simple, you won't need to call that one friend who's weirdly good at building things. But here's what really gets me excited. Everything is designed for real life. Spilled coffee on your couch? The covers are washable.

Want to redecorate? Their design consultants help you figure out the perfect setup. Need a different configuration? The modular design. lets you switch things up whenever you want. I mean, finally, furniture that understands we're human beings who occasionally make messes. Change our minds, and yes, sometimes have to move up three flights of stairs. Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit Cozy.ca. That's C-O-Z-E-Y.com.com. The home of possibilities made easy. Your back, your walls,

and your sanity will thank you. Hey, basketball fans, Steve Nash here. Ready to elevate your basketball IQ. I'm teaming up with LeBron James to bring you the latest season of Mind the Game. And we're about to take you deeper into basketball than you've ever gone before. We're breaking down the real game, the X's and O's that actually matter. In every episode, we'll share elite level strategy, dive into career-defining moments,

and explain the why behind plays that changed a game, a team, or a championship. The Bron and I have lived this game at the highest level for decades. We've been in those pressure moments and made those game-changing decisions and learned from the greatest basketball minds in history. Now we're pulling back the curtain and sharing that knowledge with you.

Time to go beyond the highlights and get into the real heart of basketball. Watch Mind the Game Now on YouTube, prime video, or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, Armcherrys. Guess what? It's Mel Robbins. I'm popping in here taking out my own ad.

Holy cow. Dax, Monica and I, I don't want this conversation to end and I'm so glad you're here with us. And the other thing, I can't believe Dax loves the Let Them Theory. He can't stop talking about it. I hope you're loving listening as much as I love having you here. And I also know, since you love listening to Armchair Expert, you know what you're going to love listening to? The Let Them Theory audiobook. And guess who reads it? Me. And even if you've read the book, guess what? The audiobook

is different. I tell different stories. I riff. I cry. You're going to love it because it's going to feel like I'm right there next to you. We're in this together as we learn to stop controlling other people so thanks again for listening to this episode of armchair expert and check out the audiobook version of the let them theory read by yours truly available now on audible you can even try it out for free with an audible trial download the audible app today mom and dad uh mom and mom dad and dad whatever parents are you about to spend five hours in the car with your beloved kids this holiday season drive an old granny's house i'm setting the scene i'm picturing screaming fighting back-to-back hours of of the K-pop Demon Hunter's soundtrack on repeat.

Well, when your ears start to bleed, I have the perfect thing to keep you from rolling out of that moving vehicle. Something for the whole family! He's filled with laughs. He's filled with rage. The OG Green Grump, give it up for me, James Austin Johnson as the Grinch. And like any insufferable influencer these days, I'm bringing my crew of lesser talented friends along for the ride

with A-list guests like Gromp, Mark Hamill, and the Jonas Brothers, whoever they are. There's a little bit of something for everyone. Listen to Tis the Grinch holiday podcast wherever you get your podcasts. I think I had read the Galbraith book, a great book that was written about this crisis by an economist. I might have read it in college. I've since re-read it many times. It's a well-done book.

But as a result of this, I was curious about this period. I went on vacation with my wife. And like a true nerd, I downloaded a whole bunch of books. books on my Kindles, and I think I brought some books with me about 29. I was like, I should just get smart on this whole thing. Look, there's a whole bunch of interesting books and interesting characters, but the books I always loved were these character-driven narratives where you get in the room and you get to like see what they're saying to each other and what's motivating them, what's incentivizing them, and who are they sleeping with? The movie version. I wanted to read the

movie version. Yeah, yeah. And there were elements of the movie version. There are scenes in some books where they really do beautiful jobs of capturing certain things, but it wasn't like a book that did the whole thing. Right. And I was like, oh, maybe I could do that. And then I got just lucky. It was strange. A couple months later, I happened to be at Harvard University giving a speech, and I got there

early, and I never get anywhere early, and I had time to burn. I walk into this library, and I asked this archivist, there was some papers that had been donated from a family from a guy named Thomas Lamont, who's actually in the book, who ran J.P. Morgan. And I said, could I look at the boxes? and I start looking through the boxes. His secretary had kept transcripts of his meetings with Roosevelt's, where they're literally talking to each other back and forth. And then there's letters, and you can see the letters back and forth and back and forth.

Oh, my goodness, this could be something. Yeah. And then the truth is, I was sort of marveling at how wonderful this was. And I went back to the archivist and I said, could I tell you my idea? This is what I want to do. Could you help me? Do you think this is doable? Explain the whole thing.

She said, I've read too big to fix. you can't do this. Oh. Because this is not going to work out for you. Why? Because she said, and she was not totally wrong about this, but I think I took it again. It's sort of like a personal challenge.

She said, there's not one or two or three archives where you're just going to be able to go there and just excavate the material. It was not clear that all the material that you wanted existed. And it was true that it was not all in one place. It was like in dozens of places. Yeah. It was a little bit of like a mystery

putting these puzzle pieces together and you're trying to figure out, well, this guy doesn't have any archives. The main character of this book named Charlie Mitchell, nobody seemed to save his notes or letters or anything. I went to the bank you worked out to try to get all. They had nothing. There's no library. But you have to say to yourself, okay, I know he's at this meeting and I know that these other eight people were at the meeting or he would have had to talk to these people after the meeting. Can I go find their stuff? And then you just sort of pray to God that you find some other material.

And then I found some depositions and other transcripts and other crazy things. He ends up getting arrested and doing some super shenanigans with his wife and found some fascinating transcripts. He would get asked. So when did you tell your wife you were going to do this? You would say, well, I did this. I was in the room. This is what I said to her. And then they interview her.

And then I thought, okay, I could put that together. Yeah, yeah. So it was a lot of that kind of thing over and over again. It sounds very hard to organize once you have all your snippets. The biggie was getting the New York Federal Reserve. the minutes of their board meetings had never been made public. So here we are. A hundred years later, no one's ever really seen this stuff.

Are they somehow exempt from Freedom of Information Act? They don't have to do it. I don't know. And I went and I begged and pleaded. And for a while, I didn't get anything for like two years. I'd just get nothing. Then they finally agreed. They sent me the minutes but redacted.

They would literally have redactions over these lines. I'm like, what's going on here? And then they finally, anyway, and that really helped sort of ground. the whole story. You need their account of how they were managing that whole scenario, I'd imagine. Each of these characters, to me, was so fascinating just to see what they were doing and why they were doing and what was incentivizing them.

Yeah, they're bigger than life and brand new on the scene phenomena in America, which is like the wealthy celebrity. This is the period of time where we get for the first time ever, celebrities that are just celebrities because they're rich. Prior to the 1920s, it was Babe Ruth, movie stars, maybe Charles Lindbergh. But a Wall Street CEO is now on the cover of magazines. And that was a totally new phenomenon. Today, you wouldn't be surprised if Elon Musk or of Jamie Diamond or some hedge fund managers on the cover of magazine, that would seem completely normal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this was completely not normal. So I think maybe this whole story starts, at least from what I gathered, maybe kind of 1990 with General Motors, oddly enough. This whole story starts at least structurally with that. It does. Or do you want to go further back? glad that you hit that because I think that is actually the

Eureka moment. But the Eureka moment, I think, was prior to 1919, at least in America, for the most part, people didn't take on debt. Nobody really wanted to borrow money. It was almost a moral sin to borrow money to get a mortgage.

That was like a grubby thing to do. I think this would shock people. We've all grown up in a world where dead. That's how the whole thing works is on debt. And people didn't have loans, which is crazy. They did not have loans. Yeah. So the thing that sort of made loans acceptable to the public was the idea.

General Motors is like, we need to sell more cars. Most people do not have enough money to buy a car. We are going to loan you money to buy a car and people flock to it. And then you had other companies like Sears Robux or clock what's going on and go, oh, okay, well, we can loan you money so you can buy appliances. And then this guy, Charlie Mitchell, who's running what turns out to be Citigroup later on. Which at the time is the biggest bank? Biggest bank in the country.

He says, we can loan people money so they can buy stock. Okay, so here we go. Terrible idea. You said that these brokerage houses just pop up like Starbucks all around the city, and someone can walk in with a dollar and put a dollar down and they get $10 in stock. Totally. By the way, this is happening today with crypto. People are borrowing.

You can get 20 to 50 times your money in the crypto markets right now. You're kidding. Somewhere between maybe 5%, maybe even 10% of the crypto market, I would argue to you, is super less. right now. The problem is we don't know. And the collateral is the actual coin that they've bought? Is that the collateral? What collateral are they putting up? Well, in some cases, the collateral is the coins. It's just the coins. It's all self-generating. It's all quite circular. It's all quite circular. This is interesting. It makes me wonder because my family from India is like you buy

your cars straight out. You do everything you can to not owe any money. And I wonder if that's just because they grew up in a different system. No, by the way, in my family, always pay the credit card off. You want no debt. And there's other people who live the complete opposite way. They think debt is fine. Right. They think debt is great.

They use debt to lower their tax bill. It's a very powerful tool in our economy debt. It's a super powerful tool. But by the way, the other thing that happened after the crash in 29 was I'd scarred a whole generation of people to not want to do any of these things. My grandfather lived in 91 years old. He had actually been a messenger boy with. his older brother down there in October of 29.

And he watched somebody jump out of a window. He used to tell us the story all the time. And as a result of that, he never bought one chair of stock for his whole existence. He would buy bonds. He would tell you to put your money under the match. So you're weirdly like third generation. This whole thing with you not being able to buy is almost like a family tradition, really. Okay, so because people can borrow, it just floods the stock market for 10 years or nine

years. Nine years. And the market's going up like crazy. Yeah, you say between 1928 and 1929, it goes up 90%. Where's your memory? How is this possible? This is a remarkable situation. This is a remarkable situation. He's got no notes. I have them, but my goal is always to not look at them. I interview people for a living too. I look down at the notes. You've turned the pages over, by the way, so you can't even see the notes. The personal failure for me if I pick them up, but they are there in case I need them. So interesting. Okay, so it goes up by 90. Which is crazy. My question, though, what was the growth between 1920 and 1929? Well, there had been a little bit of a hiccup, actually, more than a hiccup. The market actually

tanked in 21, but most of America had not yet really participated in this because that 1990 date, it didn't really take, it wasn't until, call it 25, 26. Or culturally, everyone's culturally, yeah. And as the market's going up, then people are saying, oh my goodness, they're seeing their neighbor do it. And they're like, the train's leaving the station, folks. I get to get on the train. And that's how it always happens. It's like it becomes lost bias.

I'm losing money not participating. This is crypto. This is whatever one's doing. I mean, that's the parallel to some degree. Now, I'm always scared because people say, oh, Sorkin, you're writing this book. The whole market's going to tank tomorrow. That's not when I was ever trying to do. It was more I wanted to write about this period because I thought it was sort of just fascinating.

And then as I was doing it, the weird part was I would go, oh, that's a little bit like this. That's a little bit like this. But there's also differences. So I don't want to overstate the case. Crypto is a good comp because it's unregulated in the same manner that in 1929, it was hardly regulated. But you have this enormous growth. Everyone's getting in on it. Crazy timing, right? Winston Churchill happens to be visiting. Is that the most wild thing? Yes. He's visiting the New York Stock Exchange on the day it's plummeting, what, October 28th? Literally, Winston Churchill shows up in New York, actually shows up in the U.S. and goes on this sort of crazy trip around the country, basically trying to make money, becomes a stock trader himself.

He becomes obsessed. He's watching all this happen. He's literally calling his broker, taking out big loans. Oh, my God. The whole thing is completely insane. This is before he's obviously running England. This is on a serious down. He's in the U.S., basically on a lecture series to try to make back some of the money that

he didn't have. And then he tries to make even more money because he wants to get in on the stock market. And he loves to be around rich. people and rich people love to be around him. So it was sort of this fascinating thing that was happening. Anyway, he happens to be down in New York. He literally goes to the exchange. He's watching all this happen.

And there's this wild dinner, this party that was set up, which for me as a storyteller, was unbelievable because you're always trying to get all your characters in one room. You desperately want that. And when you're trying to write a true story, it has to be true. Right. And here was looking like, how am I going to get all of these characters to get? get in one place. And then there's a dinner in his honor where all of the main characters, as the market's

crashing. Hosted by Mitchell, our protagonist. Mitchell is at this dinner. He was not the host. Oh, he's not the host. Okay. But he does raise a glass the night of the crash to all my former millionaires. That was literally the toast.

He stood up and he said to all my former millionaires. And the truth is, as he was giving that toast, he was doing that in part to almost mask the truth, which was that his whole bank was on the verge of falling apart. And he was trying to figure out what to do about it. And he went to that dinner, scared out of his mind that if he missed the dinner, that people would know that something was wrong. Oh, my God. This is like that dinner on the Titanic.

Right, right. Before it's, or like, as it's sinking, they're just eating their dinner. And playing the music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's some key players in it. There's tons of great characters, but there's also kind of just sectors that are involved in this really complex meltdown. You've got the banks, of which many of them are still in existence. It's crazy they weathered these storms, J.P. Morgan and Chase, and some didn't.

They're all there. You have the stock brokers. Yes. They're a big part of it. They're manipulating everything. And that's the other thing that I didn't realize it hopefully doesn't happen the same way today, or at least I pray it doesn't. I do think it happens in crypto. One of the things that was happening back then was you have these things called stock pools.

where basically some of these wealthy guys would get together and basically pump and dump the stock. And it was sort of known. And it was legal. There was no rules against this. So they would call each other up and say, okay, for the next two weeks, we're going to try to get this stock to go higher. And it was almost like actors on the floor of the exchange saying, I'm up for 120, then you go to 180, then I go to 220, then I go to 220, then you go to more. And then we're going to pull the rug. And weirdly, the public sort of understood what was going on. They've almost talked about these things somewhat openly. And so people would try to jump in, again, with this train analogy. They'd say, if I can get on and off the train before the rug gets pulled, I too can play in this craziness. This is like the modern day game stop a little bit.

Modern day game stop. That's exactly right. And by the way, that's happening also in crypto right now. I mean, all the time, you go on to Reddit, even these private telegram accounts that people have set up. This is what they're doing, memestocks. The other was guy who was a guy named Jesse Livermore, who was sort of the Cassandra in the room. He's the only guy who really won huge, right? He won huge because he was a short seller.

He bet against the market. And for most of the late 20s, he was almost out of business because the market kept going up and up and up, and he had nothing and it wasn't working for him. And then makes $100 million. He's that guy in the big short. Yes, except an emotional wreck of a guy because he makes the money.

He then goes on to lose all the money. He makes a little bit of money back. And by 1940, without giving away the whole book, he walks into the cloak room of the Sherry Netherlands on Fifth Avenue and kills himself. God, there's so many suicides in this book. Is there a known death total? Strangely enough, despite all of the headlines about suicides,

technically, there were less suicides in 1929 than there were in 1928. Oh, weird. So even though the popular perception is that people are jumping out of windows, and people were. I think what happened was anytime there was a suicide after the crash, there was always a headline about it. And they were either attached to the financial industry or they were somebody who had mortgage their home or lost through this.

And so in terms of the popular perception, and by the way, even the story of my grandfather would tell. I think these things did happen. But it's outsized. But I think in our imagination on a relative basis, it might be outsized. Okay, so then some other players, of course, are you have the politicians and then you have the Fed. When the Fed's kind of new, right, the Fed should be doing stuff that today it would be doing, but at the time does nothing.

Yeah, explain what they should have or could have done and what they chose to do and why. Interestingly, the Fed, which it just started in 1913, is totally basically a new institution, even though they were supposed to be an independent institution. They were worried about politics. They were scared of the politics. And for the most part, they sat on their hands. They were debating the whole time, sort of the way the Fed debates now about whether they should raise interest rates to cut this whole thing down to size, whether they should lower interest rates. And if they did that, would that cause more speculation? The debate was happening.

But they were almost too worried to do anything super substantive about it because they thought not only they get hauled up in front of Congress. Congress, but that ultimately, the Fed could just lose funding and it would be over. Now, everyone talks about the independence of the Fed. There was a lot of sort of political pressure on them, or at least they felt that political pressure because they thought that they could really screw themselves. And that was pre-crash. After the crash, the thing you would have wanted them to do, which frankly, Ben Bernanke did in 2008, is you want to flood the system with money and effectively bail everybody out.

But you remember how politically unpopular bailing people out is. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Back then, they weren't really game to do that either because that would have been a politically unpopular thing. I think the sort of psychological pressure of that was real. Ben Bernanke, by the way, had done his thesis, interestingly, at Princeton on the Great Depression and had watched all of this play out. Yeah. And then I think that actually was a big impetus for him to do what he did.

But look, for many, many years, we lived with the political ramifications of that because people were so frustrated at the bailouts, so upset about the bailouts. I know people who think, and I think this may be true not to go too political, but you look at what happened in 2008, I think that might have even led, frankly, to Trump's presidency in 2016. Occupy Wall Street to Q and on to all of it. Yeah. So it's interesting that it might have been the right economic thing to do, but not necessarily the right political thing to do. And I don't know if there was an in-between. But the weird part to compare it, the one thing I think politically about this all the time is in 29, there was, wasn't this sort of Occupy Wall Street movement immediately.

In fact, a lot of people blame themselves. Marx in your book. Groucho Marx was living in Long Island at the time. He was not a super famous actor yet. And he caught the bug like everybody else. He would spend all day at this brokerage house. He was convinced by this broker that he should buy into RCA, which was like the invidia of its time.

It was like the hot stock. Radio was the ticker. It was the next big technology. He was sort of questioning the economics of it because they didn't have a dividend. He thought, well, if they're making money, they should be giving us the money. And the broker's like, dude, you got to do this. This is the future.

The world's changing. It's different this time. He does it, of course. And then gets a call in October. You got to come down here. And he has to mortgage his house. And so many of these people, they did ultimately blame themselves. And he asked them, well, how did this happen?

He said, well, I made a mistake. And then Groucho Marx said, no, I made a mistake for believing you. For listening to you. That was that kind of personal responsibility. We don't have this much. Yeah, no one that's not going to say that. No. Now we just blame everybody else all the time. Even questions about capitalism and socialism, that didn't really come up till mid to late 30s at the earliest.

That's interesting to me because I'm always thinking about now we have these big debates in this country about what's the right of thing. Now, Hoover knew what to do but chose not to but encourage Roosevelt to do it, yeah? So Hoover knew what to do sort of. I mean, I would just say Hoover made a whole bunch of mistakes. I mean, a whole bunch of dominoes went the wrong way. He wanted to raise taxes at a time where you shouldn't be raising taxes because the whole economy was faltering. He had made a pledge as he was campaigning in 28 to the farmers in America. He was trying to get them to vote for him that he would implement tariffs, if you're seeing the parallels folks.

And so he says that he needs to go and do that in 1930. He puts tariffs in place, despite, by the way, just like now, economists were writing in these open letters, CEOs going down to Washington and say, please don't do this. He says, well, I told everybody I was going to do it. I got to do it. So he does it. A year later, global trade is down 60%. And he had this idea in his mind that the market and the economy were different, that they were somehow separated from each other.

And that this was almost like a psychological problem, that you could sort of like jawbone your way out of it. If you could just tell people to feel better, they would feel better. By the way, we just had that experience. We've had that experience a whole bunch of times happening right now. It happened in the last administration. People know what they know about how things are really happening. Yeah, they go to the grocery store and they get a bill, and that's that.

But interestingly, as things got progressively worse, one of the things that Hoover wanted to do, but he was also basically losing at this point. He was not going to be the next president. He wanted to effectively have what's called a bank holiday. He thought he needed to shut down the banks before there was like a run on all the banks. Full collapse. And he's scared out of his mind that this is going to happen. But because he had basically told everybody,

that this was a psychological problem. He really wanted Roosevelt to endorse the idea that they would do this since Roosevelt had won. And Roosevelt, of course, doesn't want to take this on. He wants to start with a clean slate. He doesn't want to endorse anything that Hoover is going to do. And Hoover doesn't want to really capitulate to the idea that this was really his thing. The egos, my God. Yeah, ego's standing in the way of like...

So Hoover secretly sends a letter to Roosevelt, begging him to do this with him. Roosevelt says, no way I'm not doing it. They're going back and forth, back and forth for weeks. The night before the inauguration, literally, it's 11.30 at night. Hoover calls him one last time, says, please, let's just do it tomorrow. Otherwise, the banks are going to go out of business. He says, no, we're not going to do it. Of course, a couple days after he gets inaugurated, what is Roosevelt do?

Shatters the banks. And it does help save the system and begins the beginning of this sort of upward trend. So he did politically get what he wanted out of all the world. it's possible had they done this earlier, they could have stemmed the tide a little bit better. Okay, let's talk about all of the downriver outcomes of this collapse because I bet there's a bunch we don't know about. I think most we would know, and in the book you say,

I think in 1934, maybe that was the nadir where we were at 25% unemployment. 32. There's like tented camps everywhere. They're called them Hoovervilles. 25%. 25% unemployment in America. And you point out the peak of our unemployment. after 2008, it was 11%.

For a hot minute. By the way, the lowest unemployment we've ever had ever was, I think, about two and a half percent. That was like true Alice in Wonderland time, 1950s. So, yeah, one in four adults who would want a job can't get a job. Can't get a job. That's pretty bleak. Yeah, and that really impacted people who had nothing to do with this trading stock. This was so much of the whole country was now being impacted.

So what kind of things came out of this societally? Well, all of a sudden, you're having a situation where people like Charlie Mitchell, who had sort of gotten away with it all. I don't want to say got in a way with it all, because it was unclear what he'd gotten away with. But all of a sudden, the bankers start to get blamed, really for the first time. They had been blamed in the papers,

but not in any political kind of way. You know, we're always debating, you know, should people go to jail? Yeah. Well, what happens? Roosevelt literally tells the Justice Department to go arrest him. So he gets arrested for tax evasion, not for an actual crime related to the banking crisis at all,

which seems almost apropos of the way we seem to do it in this country, Al Capone. I was going to say, that's how we got Al Capone. That's how we got Al Capone before that. So he had saved his bank, interestingly, with his own money. Remember, I'd tell you about that dinner with Winston Churchill. He had saved the bank with his own money, but as a result, he had a huge paper loss because he had invested all this money in his own stock to try to keep it from falling apart, which was sort of noble in its own way.

And then decides because he had made some money in cash that year, that the way he was going to try to avoid paying taxes, that year was he was going to sell all of his losing shares to his wife. It was like a stock swap. It's illegal now. But back then was unclear how legal or illegal it really was. And so he gets arrested and he goes to trial. And interestingly, just like maybe after 08 or other things, he doesn't ultimately go to jail.

He gets acquitted by the jury. And the jury decides that almost anybody would have done this in his position. And by the way, others were doing this. Everybody was doing it back then. And then we actually put a law in place to make this completely illegal. Okay. So that's what happened. And now how is it a bit of a warning? What are the parallels to today? We earmarked some. But what's currently happening? I think people, even if they don't really follow the market, they would be aware of the fact that we're in quite a boom right now. So I think there's a couple things going on. And I don't want everyone to run out and go, oh, my God, the whole thing is on fire. But we put a lot of laws in place. The SEC emerged in 1934. It was the Bank Act, which split up the banks. Carter Glass did that. in 1933. We had a bank act in 1940. There were a lot of things that we've done to try to make

the system safer. And one of the things that's happening now is we are taking some of those guardrails off in the guise of sort of democratizing finance, which was sort of the concept, by the way, in the 20s. Everybody wants more access to the lottery tickets, because we all want more. Ideally, we'd like not to work for that. Ideally, if we could avoid it, right? In the best case scenario. And so Washington just approved a bill called the Genius Act. The Genius Act allows people to trade in crypto in ways they couldn't before trade in private equity, venture capital, private credit. Now will be available to put in your retirement funds and 401K plans and all sorts of stuff like that. So that worries me a little bit in terms of what is going on.

I think you can do it, but you have to figure out a way to do it transparently with a lot of eyes and safety mechanisms on there. And I think right now we're taking a lot of the safety mechanisms off. private equity and venture capital, all that stuff, is really a private market. You don't have to disclose stuff in that world. And so here it's going to be available to the public without the sort of same disclosures that public stocks require, for example. By the way, President Trump recently announced, I think this is pretty interesting. He says public companies shouldn't have to disclose their earnings quarterly.

Historically, companies would come out with earnings reports four times a year. You could see what was going on. That was the whole point. It's pretty important. He says, now should only do that twice a year. Now, his argument is that these companies are wasting too much time focused on short-term earnings and are not thinking long-term enough. It takes too much energy and time away.

But there's a whole other argument, which is more transparency, the better. That's not an invalid argument. No, no, it's not an invalid argument. I have time for the argument. I just don't know what the true implication of it is. So I think it's like a red flag. It's a question. We should sort through the question.

Yeah. I mean, it kind of parallels what I think is a general issue in politics, which is 80% of their life is out fundraising, right? That's all they do. That's the trap of the job. They can't really govern because all they've got to do is endlessly raise money. By the way, that's a trap that CEOs and business leaders would say. Every quarter, they have to take a week four times a year.

So a month out of their year is being used to build decks and talk to the analysts and talk to the journalists. Worse, probably make some short-term decisions that are not good for the company you have invested in. So there is some arguments. I mean, there's like a fiduciary responsibility aspects of it. And that's why I get it. I'm just saying I think it's all part and parcel of this sort of this larger guardrail thing. Yes, yes, yes. And it's funny because the one thing I do think about a lot is that speculation, we all talk about speculation is like a dirty word and you don't want people speculating.

The other side of it is you need a little bit of speculation for our economy to make these great innovations. I mean, speculation is like the twin of innovation in a way. Think about whoever invested in Tesla in the beginning when it was an absurd investment was speculating. All the AI stuff right now speculating. There's no profitable AI product. Speculation. And so when you think about the great innovations that have come out of this country, in a very weird way, I know it was heretical to say.

It was built on speculation in some ways. It's like a needle of the thread. How do you have enough speculation without having too much speculation? Yes. Yes. You're trying to control this force that is very powerful. And maybe you can't, which is the question. All of our industries virtually have been in one way or another,

funded by this stock market. Yeah. And so everything we have that is now an asset of ours is somehow you can pretty much trace it back to this system, hate it or love it. It is how we have done what we've done. And this will come up in the book review I read. The question that I also think about is just how much we've decided that gambling is a part of our.

So speculation is a form of gambling, but now we're also gambling just on any and everything, which is a different kind of speculation. That's my complaint about crypto. Well, there's crypto, but I was going to say, you can now bet on the news. You can bet on a presidential election. You can bet on Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey where they're going to get married. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can bet on all of this stuff.

And obviously, you can go on a fan duel and bet on the game. But I just don't know what that does to the culture. Yeah. I mean, everything's gamified. It's also as a result of our social media and our attention and needing to move quickly. I'll say it's terrible. Yeah. I mean, that aspect's terrible.

There's been a lot of Michael Lewis parallels between you guys, as we've been sitting here, even the going to London part and getting into finance in London. There's a lot of stuff that's writing. He's like a hero of mine. Oh, yeah. He should be. Oh, my God. He is like a historic figure. He is so charismatic and brilliant and casual about it all.

I'm totally enamored. I'll tell you when I'm enamored by, I have this vision in my head of him playing the keyboard, meaning the typewriter, like a piano. And just with a smile on his face, writing these books almost cat. I know as he's writing, whereas I'm sitting there and I'm like hunting and pecking and all of the things. Yeah, he's really good at the thing you said, which is making a big story, making the character so real. So real. And you're so invested as if it's a movie. But he's so fucking playful along the way.

It's like our favorite kind of performers, the ones that make it look effortless. The best. Yes. But all of his recent work on his podcast about this insane gambling addiction that a very significant portion of the young men in the country. have. It's fucking terrible. But capital needs to be raised for innovation and this is our instrument to do so. So I'm also very in defense of the stock market. Okay. Now. Oh, now we're about to get serious. We are because I absolutely adore you. Okay. I adore you. I've had nothing. But when I met you, I'm like, I love that guy. I hope I'm on his show. I hope he's on our show. Just love him.

You guys have the illusion of journalistic integrity, but it's become so politicized. Like the New York Times is very, very clearly left, and Fox is clearly, clearly right. And that's the problem. It has the illusion of journalistic integrity, but it's interesting that it falls so perfectly that they've become so political. You think that's a valid point at all? And I'm going to bring up your book review. So I read the book review of 1929 in the New York Times, a place where you would forever and help build. And it's not a great review. And it's not a great review because the person doesn't like the stock market. Uh-huh.

It's not a review of your book. It would be like someone who hates gas-powered cars reviewing the Honda Accord. Don't review the Honda Accord. You've already established you only like electric vehicles. The notion that the New York Times had the audacity to review Joe Rogan's stand-up routine, I thought was preposterous. You've got to recuse yourself from that. You've already declared.

So I don't think that review of your book was fair at all. And I think it reeks of the thing that I am suggesting is happening. Wow. I have a couple thoughts. one is so I grew up at the times. I love the times. Let me say. No, you don't have to say that. I do. I do. I'm just saying it's hard for me. There are things I agree with and there's things I don't agree with like anything in life.

And so the only thing I feel like I can be responsible for is me. Yes. I think what happens is, and maybe this goes to then the audience, I think that I am channeling the audience. I think as a journalist, my job is to sort of channel the public. What does the public think? And you may say to yourself, well, who is the public? Who are your listeners versus who's listening or watching MSNBC or reading the New York Times or who's watching Fox? I like to think of myself, this is selfish to say, as a completely independent actor.

You're thinking on your own. Whether it's The Times or CNBC or any other part of my life, there's no model. There's nobody saying to me, hey, Sorkin, you got to do it this way. This is what you have to do. I'm asking you to do it or I'm instructing you to do it. Well, you're smart enough to predict the criticism you'll get. You got me on the couch. I am cognizant of that.

Maybe that's not good. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. Yeah, I don't either. I wanted to talk about it. I'm not unhappy that you did. It's a little uncomfortable.

I won't tell you it's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't figure out what the public actually wants. This is the thing I grapple with in the following way. I think that part of the public wants questions that are super newsy, super accountable. There's part of that audience that wants that. And increasingly, there seems to be an audience that doesn't want that at all. And maybe we're sort of just moving in these different directions.

I don't know what the right answer is. I think about this all the time. So I don't want you to think that this is like clearly, unfortunately, on my mind in a way that you've sort of got in there. Yeah, I think all sides are claiming they're doing it. But then there's these very big in public and known failings of it, right? So even on the daily, these two Princeton professors on talking about, you know, there's a huge failure of the media during.

COVID, distancing didn't work. It was already known by the WHO six months before, and it was shut down. So it's a bummer, and that's not what the fourth estate's supposed to be. So it's like, just if we acknowledge that there's some failures, why are these failures? My hunch is that because all of these things have become really dedicated to one side or the other, and that to me is what's scary. I think there is, again, get out your salt shaker because this is what I've been doing for my career.

I think there's a value in journalism capital J. Me too. Me too. No, no, but so here's the complicated part because now we're going to get into like, economics of the media business and where the soul goes and all the things. Yeah, yeah. If journalism, Capital J dies, or if it can't do what it's supposed to do, which is actually to provide news and information that you can learn from, we can't have a conversation using facts. And we need the facts somehow. And by the way, sometimes in these interviews that I'm doing,

and by the way, sometimes in the interviews that you're doing, you are collecting facts. you're in the business of collecting facts that then get put into the public bloodstream and are hopefully picked up and used in the right way. Yeah. Sometimes, obviously, they can get spun and all sorts of things, but we need the facts.

Yeah, I agree. And so I always wish I could do it better every single time. Even something that I've done that's great, I never think anything I've done is great, to be honest with you. I always sort of go, oh, it could be better. The book could be better. Everything could be better.

Always. I don't know, you're pretty fucking good, though. The bar is pretty goddamn. You know what I'm saying? For me, that's what's going on. constantly. I'll write an email, send the email, and think I could have sent a better email. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, that's like the prison of my own brain. Yeah. I have the same fear you have. How are we trusting anything? Right. And I want to get to the

bottom of that. And I really want us to figure it out. I'm not sure people are really suggesting the real problem and then the real solution. Can I throw up one other thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're all trying to be trusted. I think everybody wants to be trusted. We talk about people want more money. And actually, I would argue too, they want trust. And so the question is, what does that mean? How do you react? How are you trusted, right? And sometimes a brand can be trusted. Sometimes a person can be trusted. And I think what's happening that's so interesting right now is, especially in the media landscape, it seems like individuals are trusted more than brands are trusted. Except then you... Until they... Yeah, yeah. I'm just saying, I don't know. I wish I had a

better answer for you. Well, I love the book. You're a phenomenal writer. You take too long between books. It takes a while. Because we're going on like eight years. Oh, no. Much longer. Yeah. Too big to fail is a while. I wonder if they'll make a movie out of it and I'll watch it over a

16 years. Yeah. This is definitely going to get made into a show and you know it. Maybe. We can hope. I'm watching it. It's going to be a great show. The characters are phenomenal. They're also interesting. It's from such a different era too. Like the way people are living is just so fascinating. It's the birth of all the stuff that we're still kind of seeing now, like on steroids. Now they're going to space instead of building the Empire State Building.

Yeah, yeah. Well, Andrew, I adore you. I really, really, really, really am grateful for what you do as a journalist. And the different things I've read that you've exposed in the loopholes, and you do hold power accountable. And I'm very grateful for it. And I just think you're a wonderful dude. And I hope you'll come back.

I appreciate it. Thank you, guys. This is fun. I'm a little scary. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes. You know, sometimes you're just grumpy.

Yeah. I've felt this agitated in a long time. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah, it's okay. I'm going to get over it. Okay. This is a change of venue.

It's a new starting fresh. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff in my house. There's a lot of stuff in my house that I think gets used one time and then just sticks around forever. Yeah. And like I couldn't close cabinet doors in my gym because there's just stuff overflowing that's never ever been used. It's never going to get used. Yeah, sure.

There was something out. You got to cut that out. No, I want to keep it. I kind of, no, I don't know. What was it? This ridiculous fucking back thing that, no, the tag is still on this motherfucker. You can't close the camera and I'm fucking throwing this motherfucker. No one's ever going to notice.

Oh, wow. I did. I pitched it. Did you feel good? No, I felt conflicted. I was preparing for if I get caught. What is my defense of this? Okay, okay.

What did you mount? We're keeping this. We have to. No, we have to, because we have to teach people. She doesn't listen. That's true. She has friends that listen. No, they don't listen.

Nicole. Hi, Nicole. I don't know if she listens to the fact that. Nicole, please don't tell. Nicole, please don't tell. It's a contraption. Yeah, so I was like, what am I going to? First of all, well, I wouldn't have done it if I wasn't like 99% sure.

It's never going to get brought up. Yeah. And then I think, well, what if it does? Is it a scratcher? I think or some of, yeah, it's huge and heavy in. Okay, that feels hard to do. It has a tag on it. So it can't be getting used because you can't really use it with the tag.

Okay. I snapped. I know. I can feel it. Well, if you're going to snap. But I'm not trying to hide it. I'm trying to own it. Yeah, but also if you're going to snap, I suppose that's the best way.

That's me snap. I'm like, I'll throw something away secretly. Well, no, you could snap by yelling, so it's better that you did this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't have ever yell at anyone. Okay. Unless they were yelling at me. Sometimes you get angry.

Everyone gets angry and sometimes things get pushed over. Instead of yelling, you could throw stuff out. This is a good lesson. Well, I don't know if anyone should copy this. I bet it's already being copied. Let's get honest. You weren't the first one to do this? You know, there's a lot of, like, there's things get worked out in interesting ways and everyone.

You know, there's a certain amount of life that's between the lines. Oh, sure. Right? Yeah. And everyone knows, wink, wink. Nicole. It's part of the, you know, the silent lubricant that makes everything work. Yeah, of course.

I don't even know what I'm saying, but once in a while I snap and I, and I pitch something. Okay. I've never been busted, which makes me think I have a really good barometer of what, like, no one's. ever gonna notice okay so you threw it in the big trash outside and I picked a trash can that was like very no one's the person who owns this item's never going to be in that trash can there's several that they would use before they got to this deep right now what okay so if okay so if yeah if you're confronted I would go I snapped I couldn't shut the door I was already really

frustrated I tried nine times to shut the door and put it in different things and finally just said it has a tag on it's never been used I've been wrestling with that forever And I'm going to pitch it. And if someone wants it, I'll replace it. Great answer. You're liking this? Yeah, that's honest.

But then that person might say, as if this is so hard to figure out, that person might say, you can't just decide which of my items you're going to throw away. I understand that point of view, too. It's very valid. It's more valid than my point of view, which is like being an adult, come talk to me about it. But I knew I was not in a headspace to have a gentle, civilized talk about it. Yeah. The right thing would probably just spend.

walk away because I bet tomorrow wouldn't bother me nearly as much as it did in that moment. Look, I think you saying you didn't have the capacity in the moment to walk away. Yeah. And you didn't have the capacity to have a conversation because you knew wasn't going to go well. It wouldn't have gone well, yeah. Then, and you felt this was the only option, this was the next best option. It was the least worst option. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think if you say that, I know this person and I think this person is going to, this unnamed, person is going to is going to be like you know what i get that and and i know him and i'm glad he chose that option instead of the other ones yeah i hope so but what i have to do in these situations where i i've done something and i feel very um validated in my decision or or very confident yeah you feel happy about it what i do that helps me is i transplant this person, I transplant Delta onto this person.

And then when I imagine throwing anything of deltas away, I feel terrible. Because Delta also has a lot of things. And they all have a very special meaning. So then that was step two. So I'd already kind of snapped and I threw something away. And then I went upstairs in my bedroom to rush. And then we have another basket in our room.

There's so many baskets in the world. Okay. They've all found their way to my house. containers and baskets. Yeah. And I look in this new basket that's virtually in the center of our room. I'm like, what is in this basket? Sure.

It's half-fold with stuffies. They're not obviously mine. They're not Kristen. Not obvious, but... There's also an errant sweatshirt in there. It's not mine. Okay. And then I go, well, this basket's going in their room.

Oh. No, no, no, no. God, okay. But that was me being insolent, too. It's like, I'm taking these basking, and I'm putting it in their room because it's full of stuffies. Right. And then I had to stop. Because then I felt like I was just going to be a whirling dervish and just like clearing out.

I think I want to live in a big empty box sometimes. Sometimes, yeah. Of course, but then you don't. And I was telling myself, as I was ramping up and starting to boil, I was like, this is the price to have a house full of life and love. Exactly. And that always works until it doesn't sometimes. And then it's time to take a secret trip to the trash. One day, you're going to miss that basket of stuff.

He's so fucking much, you're going to, you're going to pine for the basket of stuffies. Bobby Brown. Bobby Brown. Bob the Brown. Not the rapper. Not the rapper. Not the rapper. Not the stranger things.

There's a Bobby Brown? Millie Bobby Brown. Oh, you're sure. Mbb. Yeah. Well, that could get us on another tangent that I don't, I mean, I want to talk to you about, but I'm afraid to talk about on here. I see that there's a feud. I can't believe you don't know this.

I can't think of breaking scooo. Yeah. This is cute. This shows how. not clued in you are yeah rob you know what i'm talking about yeah i had to ask a friend a couple days ago what was going on wow was lily allen right yes lily allen his wife david's david harbors wife lily allen put out a album okay they're not together anymore okay she put out an album and it's uh wild it's derogatory towards it's the whole thing is about him okay and very explicitly about him

and um what kind of stuff does it say well there's a song called pussy palace what's that mean he had a pussy palace meaning he had lots of girls yeah he had another apartment that she thought was a dojo but whoa whoa a karate dojo or a mikasa su dojo epic ken style i'm i'm not so sure the whole album it reads like a diary like it's like one it's like a novel and it's it's intense It is? It's intense. Do you know some of the lyrics by heart? I can pull some up for you.

I didn't know it was your pussy palace. Pussy Palace. Pussy Palace. I always thought it was a dojo. Dojo. Dojo. So I'm looking at a sex addict. Sex addict.

Sex addict. Talk about a low blow. Oh no. Oh no. There's also a really tough one. I found a shoebox full of handwritten letters from brokenhearted women wishing you could have been better. Sheets pulled off.

the bed, drew on the floor, long black hair probably from the night before. Dwayne Reed bag with the handles tied, sex toys butt plugs lube inside, hundreds of Trojans, you're so fucking broken. How'd I get caught up in your double life? So, they were in an open relationship. This is part of the... I also have, I find this very complicated. Okay.

Extremely complicated. First of all, congratulations and thank you. You've popped me out of my mood. I'm going to go take that out of the trash. All it takes is a pussy pal. So you hear from the very beginning, the story of this, basically, how she, he asked her for an open relationship. Can I pause for half the second? Of course.

They don't sell butt plugs at Dwayne Reed, do they? Maybe that was that back scratcher you threw out. That might have been a really tough. That's a huge butt plug. I mean, maybe that's just how he was carrying him all his shit around. He just grabbed a plastic bag And put all his section in there I guess

But you like you don't have a bag He doesn't have a backpack or a bag Okay okay okay I'm getting bogged down in the details Yeah And maybe they do sell Maybe there's like behind you I hope because like every Like there's no shame in anything

I've heard so far No no There's shame if Okay So she She starts the album By talking about How she got cast in this play

in London. She goes to London and then he kind of turns on her a little bit. He calls her and he asks for a open relationship. And she says, yes. Okay. So, and she plays, like, she plays her side of the conversation on the phone. But really, it's like her recreating it. Okay. I assume. I assume she didn't record that. Okay. Okay. So then what follows this whole album. Okay. is, uh, they had rules as you should. Sure. Boundaries. Boundaries.

And it seems that he really crossed all these boundaries. It seems like they were supposed to only have sex with sex workers. Wow. I know. That's an interesting parameter. I know, but that's their, not judgmental, just saying interesting. I agree. Um, but I think it's because the separation.

The fear of the attachment. Exactly. So sex workers, um, yeah, no love, no sex. I think in the house or bed or shared the marital bed exactly shared locations yeah anyway it seems that that didn't happen maybe fell in love with this person her name is madeline she says that there's a song called madeline oh boy yeah it's like really putting her everyone I'm blessed she was madeline for Halloween like she's really leaning in Lily Allen was went as Madeline yeah okay so there's just a lot of drama okay when you go at Halloween Rob just

Is this her as the person? She just put it back. She's like Tori's spelling. No, she went. She's gone as Tori's spelling. Stop. Listen to me. She, this is Madeline the character.

You know the like, the illustration? No. You know Madeline, the French? Oh, I can kind of see it's a cartoon cover. Yeah, by Bemelman, Ludwig Bemelman. I do, I do. This is Lily Allen. That's Lily Allen.

As Madeline, the character for Halloween. But that's a play off. of in her album, the person that gets called out is this woman, Madeleine. So she's just like, she's being cheeky. Okay, she's playing, she's being playful. She's being playful cheeky, but I find it a little like, e! I'm a little concerned about it. Yeah.

Yeah. So I, this goes, but we had this exact conversation about Taylor and the Charlie X, CX, and this type of thing. Mm-hmm. where I was like, I just think, I mean, Taylor's different, but, and the whole thing is different, but I do feel like, of course it's your right. You're an artist, so like you can do whatever you want. Take your pain and make art out of it. Yeah. But I think it is so irresponsible to drag someone, even if they, like, look, I get it.

Like, you're so mad and you just. want to throw them in the garbage like you threw that backscratcher in the garbage. But like what about so many people are affected more than him? I mean, not more than other than him. She has kids who are, you know. When I try to imagine what she's feeling like to make the decision to go to Halloween is that. It's, it feels like it could be either, I'm hurting so much. I want to hurt and embarrass you.

Yeah. Back. Halloween or the album? Oh, both. Okay. But Halloween to me is where we really. Well, that's like extra. The whole thing is the album and everyone is talking about and everyone's like, oh, my God.

And everyone's like to David Harbor. Right. So I think the desire is I'm hurting a lot. You've hurt me. Yes. I want to hurt you back. Yeah. And that I understand.

But then I would just, I'd do the same thing to time out. Yeah, Tio. I don't think you're hurting him. I don't think that's working. I don't think he's hurt by this. I think he feels probably confirmed that it was right to not be with her. So for starters, I don't think it would have the desired outcome. Right.

So I think there's either that. That would be one thing I could understand. And then another thing I could understand is I'm deeply humiliated. Now, this is kind of what I would do, right? I'm humiliated by this and embarrassed. And the way I take ownership of it back is to go as this other woman to Halloween in the same way I make fun of myself before you can. Like there's a judo move to go like, I'm not affected by this. Look, I'm playing with this.

This is, I'm fucking with this. And it's like, and I think it could be an attempt to salvage your own. Does that make sense? Do you know what I'm saying? It does, but she's not embarrassed. She's, this is like a huge album now. Like, she's happy. I think the reason she's leaning in and going as Madeline for Halloween is like a promotional.

Yeah. But I'm asking more about the actual art itself. Like, is, is that okay? And I guess, like, okay is gray? Like, oh, yes, it should be allowed. Yes. Is it? ethical? Is it ethical to do what she just did? Like, I find this hard, hard to answer.

I think it's fine. So that's my answer. It's totally fine. And the result of her actions are, in my opinion, he doesn't look bad. She looks nuts. And she has now limited, I think, her future with anyone that isn't rational. So yes, I think it's totally fine if she does it. And then I think she'll pay whatever price comes with that, which I think will be a real one. I'm not even evaluating what he did. I'm saying when someone does deal with their very long-term intimate relationship in a very knee-jerk public way, forget the details.

I go, who, that's a way to deal with it. Yeah, me too. That's my whole point. So I'm saying that's not a good look for her. Forget the details, just the notion, like that if Chris and I got divorced and my first stop was Us Weekly to give a play-by-play breakdown of everything she did wrong, that says more about me than her. Yeah, that's what my point is. Yeah, it feels very Amber heard Johnny. Yeah, it feels to me that they probably were meant for each other.

It's probably a very tumultuous, high, high intensity. the relationship. Yeah. Yes. I agree. I think some people will be thinking, well, what if he hit her? Could she not? She should go to the police.

Yes, exactly. So I think if any time that's something you can't go to the police over, which you should be a thousand percent clear. Yeah. Yes. In any relationship, if anyone gets physical, you should go to the police. Yeah. So anything short of the person breaking the law, sorry, that's just,

shitty girlfriend, shitty boyfriend, fucking run-of-the-mill stuff. And that's life. It is. And I guess that, again, that's the thing. But you're allowed to write about your life in a memoir. You're allowed to write it. Like, you're allowed.

It's just like at what point does the line cross? And I guess it's person to person. Yeah, it's individual. You're allowed. It goes, yeah. It's legal. Yeah, exactly. It's totally, I'm not saying anyone shouldn't it.

I will just file that. person into a category in my mind. And that's the price you'll pay. So when you're deciding whether you want to do it, you just go like, well, what will be the fallout? What will most people think? Yeah. It's. But I think if you're young and you have recently been cheated on and feel heartbroken and you hear this, you're going to be a moth to a flame. You're going to feel very comforted by it. I think a lot of people feel seen. Yeah. And I get that. I mean, this is my definitive statement on it. I totally support it because it's art. And there's art that I like that people find grotesque and overshare, whatever they think. Yeah. But that's art. And so I support it,

you know, at the end of the day. And it's not for me. Right. Right. But a lot of art's not for me. Right. Yeah. Okay. I want to say an opposite thing. Oh, okay. I saw sentimental value. The movie sentimental value. Okay. And talk about a piece of art that I support. Oh, okay. And it's so good. It's so beautiful. What got you to the theater? Because I'm not even aware of the movie. So how'd it come across your desk?

So I love the movie, the worst person in the world. It's one of my favorites. And it is the same director and the same actress in the movie. I heard that this was coming out like earlier this year. And I've been waiting and waiting and waiting. And I'm like November, that's way too long. Almost being in 2026 by then. Exactly.

But it came and I went to the theater first weekend and I saw it. And it is a masterpiece. Just gorgeous movie. I can't wait to see it. And it's really, it speaks so beautifully to family dynamics, complicated and simple ones. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's gorgeous. I really highly recognize.

recommend it. Can't wait. And I think after what happened today with your back scratcher, you'll see it. I'll feel foolish. You'll just feel like. I can already tell I'm going to feel foolish. No, you don't have to feel foolish. I'm already feeling foolish.

And just because I've calmed down. I might have to remove it from the trash can. Okay. Great. Well, then I got to clean it. So it was in the trash can. I'll never get used. I don't really need to clean it.

What if you take it out and then there's a maggot on it? And then you get maggots in the house. And then it's like jokes. on you. Farrise. Ooh. Gross. All right.

Let's do back. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. In the spirit of honesty, I'm not done with this episode. Great. Yeah. So there might be facts left on the table. I'm so sorry. It's okay.

I'm sorry. Everyone will live. I think you will live. I think you will live. I think you will get through it. But I do have a few because I did get. Fuse better than none. Fees better than none. That's what they say.

Benefits of creatine. Okay. Creatine is a natural source of energy that helps your skeletal muscles flex contract. It helps create a steady supply of energy in your muscle so they can keep working, especially while you're exercising. If you have diabetes, though, you probably shouldn't take it. Oh, really? Yeah, it says studies show that it's safe for many people to take creatine supplements.

However, there isn't enough evidence. Oh, there isn't enough evidence to show if it's safe if you are pregnant or breastfeeding. Oh, I got you. They just haven't tested on all these different people. Have diabetes. Diabetes. Diabetes. Kidney disease.

Have liver disease. And if you have bipolar disorder, it says creatine may also increase your risk of mania. Oh, we don't want that. This is from the Cleveland Clinic. Studies suggest that creatine supplements may help. brain function in people's 60 and older. This includes short-term memory, reasoning, neuroprotection, keeping groups of nerve cells safe from injury or damage.

Researchers are studying whether creatine supplements may help people with cognitive conditions, including dementia. I mean, obviously, there's like a lot of stuff with muscles. Sure. That is beneficial. Helps recovery. You know, I had a third grade education before I started taking Creantin. Wow.

And then you graduated from UCLA. That's right. The America's hardest school to get into. I want to take it. Mary Claire Haver, who we had on the perimenopause expert, recommends it for women. So I'm going to start taking it, I think. You should. I could have also gotten into UCLA.

I just didn't apply. But I think that. You can figure it out, though, from your GPA, that that would have been. than quite a challenge. Okay, no. No. I did great in school. Yeah.

And I would have got in. Yeah. Better than you. And I would have got in because I also have Indian diversity and southern diversity. We already discussed this. Southern. This is the new square footage of your house debate, I think. Okay.

I looked at percentage of people with Colaboma. I might have to find my diploma and hang it behind my. I don't know where it is, but I think it might be worth finding it. And then I'll also print out that page that said it's the hardest. So when people see, like, oh, did you go to UCLA? What's that other thing? Oh, wow, is the hardest school in the world to get into? Okay, not the world.

Didn't you have a third grade education where you started taking creotin? Not the world. I don't have a thing of a jar creatine next to that. So it would be the diploma, the bona fides, and then the reason. Now, coloboma. Mm, I love it. I looked up the percentage of people with coloboma and percentage of people with heterochromia. Yeah, I know something with that, too.

He has both. He has both? Yeah. Oh, I get so distracted by the colonnoboma. No, I don't think so. It just takes over enough of his eye that it looks like he has a different color eyes, but I don't think he has both. Oh, are you sure? I'm pretty sure.

Dang. Find a nice close-up of his eyes. yeah you're right he would be that'd be a double jackpot winner that's why i thought it was extra cool yeah no colaboma affects approximately one in 10 000 people or about 0.01 percent that's rare that's cool yeah that's very limited dish extremely limited i bet he's insecure about it but i genuinely love it it makes it so much more interesting to talk to him and i hope he feels that way and it does make it look like he has heterochromia yeah which i love which is also effects less than 1% of the human population worldwide.

And I have a friend whose daughter has it. And I used to hold her as a baby. And I've been around her a ton. And it wasn't until this summer I was looking at her. And I went, oh, my God, you have heterochromia. You noticed it only now? Yes. Now she's just old enough to, like, lock in and talk to you as an adult.

Right. And I was like, whoa. What colors are they? Blue and brown. Really? Yeah. Wow. There's a Blue Jays picture that has the heterochromia.

Oh, wow. Some of those players were very cute. I wasn't rooting for them. That was so fun. We didn't even talk about that. The Dodgers won. I know. It was the craziest series.

It was so fun. There cannot have ever been a more hotly contested series. Like, has there ever been one Rob where they went 15 annies? They went 11 innings. Like, that's got to be the closest. Yeah, I think that was the most innings played in a world series. Wow. There you go.

That's so cool. Yeah. We had so much fun watching. Watching it, watching the game seven. Where were you? Charlie's and Erica's. He hosted. You were out of town.

I was hosting a birthday party. And I was doing that thing I did at the Globes, which is I was like watching it at my seat. I was afraid I was going to miss my cue to go introduce a new. I would imagine a lot of people at that party were. They made an announcement about phones. You couldn't have your phone out. So I was really breaking the rules. Oh, no.

But I had to check in with the scores. is my Los Angeles. Most of the people in the room weren't from Los Angeles. They can be forgiven. Right. And of course, no one's from Toronto. Just kidding, Toronto. I love you.

I didn't feel as great about the victory that I would normally. Did you? Yes. I thought it was the absolute best way to win. Yeah, just they fought so hard. And they haven't won in a long time. I don't care. And it was a big deal that they get.

This is why you're a champ. This is why you're champ. If I were competing against them, I'd start throwing it. Like, I'm going to throw this guy. a fucking heater. I'm going to get him a home run. These boys deserve it. They're from,

they're from Canada. Deserve? Yeah, they're from Canada, Monica. No, stop this. Oh, wow. Yeah. Rob just put up a picture of the

blue, and he's showing us his Adams apple. He has a big, Adam's apple. He's a big girthy Adams apple. And he has heterochromia. It's Max Scherzer.

He's cute. Yeah. He's very cute. If he wants to move to L.A. and if he'd be single. He's rich. athletic he's got a wife get rid of her come to LA they all have wives it's so irritating anyway you didn't feel bad for them at all I felt like they put up a good fight and

that's life like if you're when we were playing the Yankees last year in the playoffs and we won them like yeah fucking we beat the Yankees like they're they're the you know they're the underdogs Monica we like I'm not interested no like it's who is the best I know I know I know The best is the best, and you don't get upset. Listen, some victories feel better than others. Can we agree on that? Yeah, but I thought this victory felt so good. I know, but we were Goliath.

Like, when we beat the Yankees, their Goliath, and that feels awesome. Listen, as someone who has won two state championships, one being a David and one being a Goliath. Yeah, you've been on both ends. I've been on both ends. That first one was better. It was better to win. Yeah. Like for me.

Yeah, and probably for the audience. But I don't like that. Like, I like that we, if we had lost because people were booing, don't make that because people were booing because we were somehow Goliath. Yeah. I'm like, fuck you. We're the best. There you go.

Then great. And we get to be the best because guess what? We are. Right. Right. This is the heart and mind of a champion. And I respect it. I loved it.

The fact that we were like down, we weren't going to win for a lot of that game. And then we came back. These are the victories that really pack a punch. And, you know, I was with Charlie and Erica and Ryan and Amy and Laura and Matt is a Blue Jays. Of course. He's from Toronto. Yeah.

He's from Toronto. Yeah. And I was there in Jess and Anna. It was so fun. And, you know, at one point, Ryan was like, let's, he wanted to leave. sure he was like we lost oh okay he gave up yeah he gets so emotional during games i watched some play of football games with him once and i said it's too much for me right i can't like his he is his emotions are just they're they're really plugged in yeah but he wasn't screaming or

anything he wasn't throwing anything he just he had he was defeated and he was and he told him like we should go yeah i want to go and i was like no i said there's a lot of game left yeah don't give up right and i was right yes yes you are It was really fun You had a fourth fact you didn't even remember you had Which is LA won the World Series That's right And I really loved that part

And this is not very me But I did love the part in the movie No When the pitcher You know the can I gotta Oh my goodness You had a little bit to drink I think You know the Canada guy?

I don't know what just happened. You know the K. Yeah. It's because. Can a good guy. You can see someone on a bar stool trying to say Canadian guy and just hung up on Canada. But I was also trying to say catcher or pitcher. Like I got confused.

There was a lot going on my head. The pitcher, the Dodgers pitcher was throwing. and the Canadian at bat was trying to get hit. Oh, interesting, okay. And then that's why the pitcher got so pissed. And then he did hit him. And he said, fuck you, motherfucker. He did?

Yeah, and you can just, it's silent, but it's so clear. It's hard for me to know whether this is in your head or this was on camera. Yeah, no, I think that happened. He said, fuck you, motherfucker. You think. You guys. This was game seven. We had a fuck you motherfucker, those sweet.

They all ran. Do you remember when the Canada, Canada, it's not, you guys didn't even watch, apparently. So, yeah, Justin Rebleski. No, that happened. The bench is cleared after. Well, that was at the beginning of the game. Wasn't that the third any? It's just in the game.

Oh, I thought you're like, bottom of the fourth. Bottom of the fourth. Okay, Craig. Okay. I missed that part. You missed it? Yeah, I didn't see that part. Oh, it was a big part of the game.

Yeah. And it was hot. Yeah. Your mixed messages. I know. You hate aggression. I know. But I love winning.

Right. So you have priorities. That makes sense. We all have, you know, we make concessions for bigger priorities. And I was like, I was like, fuck that guy. Yeah, yeah. Trying to get. Fucking Canadian.

Yeah. I looked up this guy after the hot one that screamed. Oh, huh. He's much younger than me. and I think he also has a wife. And he's from Georgia. Actually, I don't know if he has wife, but he's too young. That's such bullshit.

It's not. You can't say that till you've met them. He's 25. You don't know he could be so mature. Oh, he grew up in my hometown. Oh, my God. That's another strike. Hoffman of State.

No, that's cool because that's Georgia and Rob. Oh, he's bi-coastal. He said he had to apologize to his mom. Oh, you love it. I love that. women there he is oh yeah yeah he's cute right you kind of like white trash look it's kind of surprises me sometimes because he looks like he went to milford high school with me he went to george it looks like a georgia boy yeah i mean he's got a fucking short long he's got

shaved sides and a big big wolf in back he's got a look how few his face is no he's cute i like it but i am a little surprised you do because this dude's like he's driving around a 79 transaam with a t-top soft drinking a glass bottle of Mountain Dew, cut off jeans shorts, a via high tops with no laces, yelling, fuck you out the window with reckless abandon. Here's a better one. Oh, yeah, dude, this guy's dirty.

No. Oh, he's nasty, Monica. You should take him for a ride. You don't have to marry him, but take him for a ride. Yeah, we all agreed he was getting fucked that night. Yeah. Can you look up if he's married? Can you look up if he fucked that night?

He definitely fucked that night. That's a fact. I can check. He might have gotten too drunk. a fuck that night. I don't think he is married. No, he's 25. He ain't married.

People are married. If you want to fuck Monica, what's his name? No, I'm not. I'm cutting that. Oh. Listen, Rabelski. You're asking right now out loud,

hey, will you come over and treat me like it's the World Series Game 7? No, I know I'm nervous. I got nervous because he's rejecting me. I can feel it. He's going to, I just imagine the whole thing. Like,

someone sends him this clip. Yeah. And he's like, Ew. No, he's like, what's her address? No, he's like... God, you're so stupid sometimes. You are so stupid sometimes.

I don't know. I mean, it makes sense. You didn't get to UCLA. You couldn't be more stupid, but that's okay. We'll move on. Oh, okay. It was Wall Street 2. Who said, what's your number?

Gordon Deco. Jacob Moore asked the question, what's your number? He's speaking to Breton James. Jacob Moore is the Shia LeBuff character. Okay. So he's the one that says it. Breton James. is friend of the pod just

I need to go home I don't know what's going on Let's get you home, let's get you some I think you need an IV for fluid I am dehydrated I had muscle spas Yeah Okay friend of the pod Josh brawlin

How does Josh fit into all this? He's Brett and James That was the character that said it Yeah no that received it Received it And Shilabuff asked it Oh interesting boy this answers The craziest question

That's so weird So I stumbled upon John Brentall's episode of his show Real Ones With Shia LeBuff Okay

It's incredible I mean it has 12 million views I'm not Okay Like I didn't discover something Yeah But it's an incredible interview You've got to watch it

It's fucking wild What do you mean it's an interview Well John has a podcast Wait John Berndthal Who are friend of the pot Yeah he has a he had shyla buff on on his podcast called real ones oh and it's uh remember how much he was talking about how shy shy like got to the tank movie and he's like this guy's way too much

and then by the middle was like no this guy's fucking walking yes so they have this connection and shya i don't think has come out and spoken publicly about all the gnarliness he's created Yeah. And he does in this interview, and it's so captivating. Oh, good job. It's a level of honesty. I don't know if I ever seen in public. Yeah.

Yeah, because shy hit girls. He's a domestic abuser. And he talks about it. Yes, he owns it in this crazy, crazy way that I'm just shook by the level of ownership and an introspection he has on it. Oh, my God. He's like, yeah, man, I'm going to be apologizing for the rest of my life and I need to. I have to and I should.

Is he sober? Yeah. Good job, John Bernthal. It's a great interview. I'm going to recommend a Brolin. So weird, you just said all this. Weird, yeah. Because I was texting with Brolin and I was like, oh, I'm going to recommend this thing to him.

Why? Just because. Because of the level of inventory, this man has done. he's willing to say in public is like it's fucking crazy yeah and um and i know brolin would like would enjoy a thing like that in the same way i i enjoy it and but i have this thought i don't know if he's worked with shia he might like if you've worked with him and i would imagine during his chaos maybe you hate his gods and there's no way you're going to be able to listen to this thing and it just crossed my mind like oh i want to recommend it to judge but i kind of want to

figure out first yeah has he worked with him and then now you're telling me three hours later That's weird. That is weird. That is weird. Well, we love Josh Brolin. We love his episodes. He's a great guest. This reminds me, though, it's so funny.

So Beth Stead is out, and a lot of people have consumed the whole thing because they've moved over to Patreon. So we're starting to get feedback on the end, which is very interesting because I'm no spoilers. But people have a lot of thoughts and opinions. on the end and it's so funny we're all projecting our own stuff as we do everything at all time but it is it's been so interesting to hear i know like i posted the clip the clip i chose to post of reese was her talking about writing on a daughter's mind with a sharpie and not a dry erase board and there were a handful of people were like what about boys you don't think that goes for boys and it was like yeah talk about projection like well a she's a she's a girl so she was a daughter she

can't speak about what the impact is on a boy because she's telling her story yes for starters yes because she said that about girls does not mean she said that's not true for boys but you filled in yes it's not true for boys and that's like the the power of like your narrative is already no one gives a fuck about boys and so I hear one thing about girls and like I knew you know right yeah it's crazy how like you can look at this clip that is like so benign and beautiful and true to her and get really triggered by it I know well that's why but yeah it's just funny to hear yeah people have such specific reactions to things and it says so much about you your reaction says so much about you yeah

and I think I'm proud of that with Beth's dead that it it's caused that yeah yeah yeah it's like has the ability to cause people to feel a lot of things yeah Yeah, and disagree. Yeah. It's been interesting. That's why we love cereal. It, like, it begat debate. Exactly.

Yeah. Okay, one thing I got, fact, I got to check, and I'm embarrassed. I said I watched too big to fail. I was obsessed with it. I was obsessed with it. But I said I watched it in college. Not possible. It's not possible.

It's fucking me up a little bit because in my head, I, like, have a memory of being in my college apartment. doing this. But I wasn't. It's so confusing. You had a screener. Two years before. Because you were a comm major marketing. I was.

I was a PR major. But, um, and theater. Um, I have two diplomas back to your diplomas thing. Well, they're easy to get there. So I'm not surprised you didn't get three. They're not easy at all. They say it takes five diplomas from UGA to equal one UCLA diploma. Okay.

So I want the world to know I don't think this about UCLA at all. I'm just doing it because I love that it agitates Monica. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think it's, I mean, objectively it's hard as school in the world to get into, but I don't, I don't even care. Oh my God. Graduates of UCLA just twist everything. Now, I guess I think what happened is when I was home for the holidays, unfortunately, I didn't even, it's not even in the year I lived at home. Right.

I lived here in Los Angeles. I must have been home for Christmas and watched it. And then I couldn't stop watching it. And so I was around all those people from college. Yeah. But wow, did that really mess me up? Cut yourself some slack. Think how much this brain is holding.

I mean, you've fucking been here for 38 years and you have a lot of it. It's kind of crazy. But what can be trusted, none of it. Trust it all. Let God sort them out. I love you. Love you. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry. endry.com slash survey.