Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Anna Kendrick [Rerelease from 1/9/23]

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

Anna Kendrick (Alice, Darling, Pitch Perfect, Trolls) is an actor. Anna joins the Armchair Expert to discuss her experience being in a toxic relationship, how she feels about the term “gaslighting,��� and her strategies in dealing with a traumatic event. Anna and Dax talk about apologizing after having fights with friends, why people sometimes need to vent about their problems, and the dynamic of women being the breadwinners in relationships. Anna explains why she has travel anxiety, how it’s important to accept your own successes, and how some people can truly believe their own lies.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman. Hello, Monica. Hi. We have incredibly exciting news. Starting on Monday, August 14th, you'll be able to find all new episodes of Armchair Expert free on Spotify and everywhere you get your podcasts.

But in the meantime, we decided we wanted to revisit a few of our favorite episodes over the last couple of years. Yes, it's very exciting for us because we get to come back to everyone, which is really, really fun. And these are some of our faves. Yes, in case you missed them, these are the ones that we thought were worth re-airing before we go wide on August 14th. Please enjoy some of our best of.

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman. Good morning and good night. And to all a good night. Because who knows what time you're listening to this. No, but probably don't listen to this if you're trying to go to good night. No, no. We don't want you to just hear the beginning and then drift off peacefully. Although

I do wish that for anyone. So I take that back. Whatever you got to, however you want to use this, it's yours to use. This is an outstanding interview. Yes. Definitely the one that I was most affected by of all we've ever had. In your yeah in the past five years yeah i got gobbled up in it very privileged and honored that anna decided to come chat with us about something that's been going on in her life for quite a long time anna kendrick is a gangster pitch perfect a simple favor up in the air into the woods twilight you name it she's incredible her roster is long sings like a motherfucker oh my god one of the best voices you listened on repeat to this the trolls soundtrack i caught you i caught you you did i walked into your work one day yep when i worked at ucb and

you're in the middle of listening to trolls on youtube true I was. She has a movie coming out January 20th called Alice Darling and it's incredible. She's fantastic in it. I watched it right before we talked and it's excruciating in an incredible way about a woman who's coming to terms with an abusive relationship she's in. Yeah. I'm watching something else. Oh, you haven't seen it, Bad Sisters. It's so good. These things that seem inane, if you read them in a headline or whatever, when you get to watch them play out in people's lives,

like how subtle and consistent in the slow trickle effect of it wearing down a human and destroying them is so wild. It is. It is. It is. It's brutal. This is a great interview. I hope everyone loves it.

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Open an account today at questrade.com. Okay, the amount that your feet are hanging off the couch is so cute. It's just like when Monica does the fact check. It really is. It's distractingly cute. Okay. I wonder how many of us there's been here. Little tiny shorties? Shorties.

Shortcakes. Shortcakes. You, Kristen. Yeah. Now, Anna. You know, I'm going to call you Anna. I'm going to warn you now. That's fine.

No, it's not fine. Your name is Anna. It's not your name. Yeah. But we have an Anna really close to us. Oh. And annoyingly so, she spells her name. With two Ns? No. She doesn't she doesn't no okay i'm staying correct i'm not that close to you after all okay i guess i just learned i have no excuse

but i'm so in the habit of saying anna that it's actually fucked up how i talk to our friend hannah exactly you say hannah i want to yeah like when i when I see her, I go, ha, ha, ha. And then midway through, I hear that Hana's coming out. And then I go, hi, Hana. So you constantly sound like you're having a seizure. Yes. That's good. Or some palsy, some white palsy.

And then I'm triggered because seizures. Right. Yeah, a lot of it. Wait, can I give you some credit? Okay. I know. I thought you were going to say criticism. No.

Because I heard the C. Okay, go ahead. Hana gets called Anna by everyone and she's Kristen's assistant and every time someone does it I get like PTSD well no I feel like she feels like she can't say that's not how to say it oh because she's not empowered yeah right yeah there's like this power thing not, of course. But if she's out in public with Kristen doing work and someone calls her Anna, which happens every time. Sure. I think she just lets it go and I think she hates it.

And I feel like you've picked up on it and you're good at calling her her name. And now you're not going to go back. We all have a story about her. Would you be opposed to making it a little closer to your mouth? Of course. Okay, great. Yeah, because you have such a pretty voice and I... The prettiest. I feel like I've backed myself really

into the furthest corner of this couch. Feel free to get calm. Do you want a blanket? Desperately. Oh my god, yeah, then we have one. I'm going to put it on you. This is the service I just started doing to guests. Who is it? Lily Reinhardt. You think I'm going to object? Tuck me in, baby.

Let's do it. As it should be. Oh, my. So cozy. Oh, my goodness. I think you also maybe did this to Zoe Deutsch. Oh, my God. I feel so nurtured. Oh, my God. You're really... Oh, wow. Now, don't be codependent. You're going to want

to use your arms. Exactly. At any point, you're really, oh wow. Now don't be codependent. You're going to want to use your arms. Exactly. At any point, you can get rid of that. No, no, no, no, no. This is how Dax wanted it. So I guess I can't do anything. That's fine. I'll just sit like this the whole rest of the show.

I should be able to, I should be able to get through. I should be able to stand up for myself, but I'm just going to stay in the straight jacket. Boy, my nose is itchy. I'd kill to itch it right now. But as a shorty, do you find, this is actually in an okay sweet spot of leg hanging off where I'm almost fully reclined. I would only need the tiniest ottoman to be fully, fully reclined.

But I find, I have to remind myself that I'm a grown, excuse me. I have to remind myself. The one you burped like a baby in the middle of your sentence. I have to remind myself that I am a grown woman and that I'm at the doctor's office and I can't fully get up into a, how would you describe this? Like a fetal position where the feet are curled up under me like I'm an eight year old. Because I find it very uncomfortable to be in that kind of in-between where the chair is hitting right at the calf. Mid-calf can give you a charley horse. But I do all kinds of fetal legs out, like even in this chair, these feet will come up. Oh my God. What happened?

What's wrong with my pants? Holy fuck. How embarrassing, right? In front of Anna, your new friend. I'm so embarrassed. What a mess. Should we reschedule this to after the break? Oh, thank God.

How close do you live? I live like 20 minutes away, but I actually used to live five minutes away. I feel like you would live over here. Me too. That's why I just assumed wrongly. Okay, why did you move? I actually just bought my dream house. I've always wanted to live in this neighborhood that again is not far.

I remember being like, if I lived in this house, I would become perfect. I would not have any more personality problems. I would just, I would work out every day. I would journal. None of that has proven to be true, but I'm very happy in the house. Has it improved your life at all? Yes. Okay. Yes. Hit me with how? More light in your life? My old house had a lot of light. The new house has a lot of light. This is so silly, but it's... We love silliness. It's all one floor. Oh, yeah.

A ranch. And I think because I travel so much and I am so small and so weak, the upper body strength of a dying fruit fly, just nothing. I get bad travel anxiety and bad packing anxiety, constantly having stress dreams about I didn't pack this or I need to go back for that. And I get a weird amount of anxiety about hauling my suitcase down the stairs. Up and down. Yeah. Especially when I was living with roommates, I just found it so humiliating that I had to just let it clunk one stair at a time. Because you're feeling like you don't have the upper strength to hoist it.

You're deceiving men. In what way? You look fit and like you would be strong. I often ask other men, would you rather look super strong and be weak or look really weak and be super strong? I'd way rather look strong, personally. Oh, that's really interesting. I think I would probably rather look strong, personally. Oh, that's really interesting. I think I would probably rather be strong.

I mean, look, there's gender things here where it's not a big deal. If I look like I have no upper body strength, no one really cares. But if I could just do more things, that would be great. If I could just move things around without asking for help, that would be awesome. I hate having to ask for help putting something in the overhead bin. Nothing is more uniquely humiliating. First of all, what sign are you? I'm a Leo.

Okay. I'm a cusp. August. Cusp. Yeah, I'm a cusp. But I'm a Virgo. August 9th? Uh-huh.

Okay. Okay, not that far off. Okay, well, I just had a recent bad experience on a plane with my luggage where it came crashing down. Yeah, so I did have to ask for help. From another woman, right, as I recall? Yeah, she was angry. The big girl? She was angry? Well, I think she was angry that it had

crashed down and that now I was holding everybody. Wait, I have a bad fear. Was this when you were deplaning? No, I was getting on. Oh, this wasn't like, oh, it's the middle of the flight and I'm reaching for something. No. You're holding up the line.

Well, I have a terrible fear. What? You're not going to like this question. Did you ask a passenger from coach? I don't know. Yeah. So that's why she hated your guts. Because you were in first class.

I didn't ask. And then you asked this person from coach. Boo hiss. Man, will you put my bag up? They should have people here. Stop it. That's not how it went. And you used that voice.

I did. We all know. Yeah, I know. You know the voice. No, I tried to do it on my own. And I'm small. And it didn't work. It started to crash down and made everyone nervous that they were going to get injured.

And I just kind of looked at the woman behind me. She was like, yes, I see you need help. I will help you begrudgingly. And I don't know where she sat. Did she say, yeah, let me grab rich people. Did you hear that at all? Honestly. Okay. Back to your house. I love a ranch. I love a ranch. I lived in a ranch for 16 years, just a thousand feet that way. And I had hoped to die in a ranch. I love a ranch. I lived in a ranch for 16 years, just 1,000 feet that way. And I had hoped to die in a ranch. There's something about it that I find very pleasing. Yeah.

Yeah. There's a premium on them in Maine. Both of my parents still live in Maine. Well, actually, my dad passed recently. And his funeral was on Friday. Wait. Oh, my gosh. I'm so sorry.

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on. I feel like someone should have warned us about that. Sorry. Don't apologize to us. So it's weird.

So I guess he doesn't. But I put them both in single-story houses. But Maine has one of the oldest populations in the country. I'm saying this. I remember seeing that somewhere. I don't know if that's true. I do the same thing about Michigan. Do you have a place for yourself in Maine?

No, no, no. I don't. Okay. Because I have a friend, no, no. I don't. Okay. Yeah. Because I have a friend, David Walton. I love him. He's an actor. He sold his house in Hancock Park and he bought himself a house on the ocean in Maine and it's glorious. I can't believe how gorgeous it is. Yeah. Very wispy, very Terrence Malick. Yeah. Very nice. Very Malick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. We have a few already loose ends. Yeah, we got a lot. At some point, maybe we circle back to your grieving.

I'm so sorry. Can I ask how old your father was? 75. Okay, great. I just heard someone in an AA meeting say this the other day. I thought it was really funny. It was a guy that was about 75. And he said, if I die right now, I'm too old for it to be tragic.

Yeah. And then, what are you saying? But too young also. Too young for some other thing, really clever thing. But I thought, oh, that is a funny.

Well, this was a great retelling. Thank you for that. Let me just try to get a hold of him. Too young to be expected. That's for sure. Yeah, but he just talked about there's a doldrums age where it's like,

no one's going to actually go like, oh, shit, that's too young. And they're not going to say like, oh, great, he had a great life. You're kind of in this. Yeah. Yeah. They weren't married, clearly. Yeah, they divorced when I was 15. And I actually remember something my mom said years ago when I went to my grandma's funeral, my grandfather's funeral.

I was kind of wondering, do I need to wear black? And I feel like she said something about how it's sad, but it's not a tragedy. So there was a sense that I didn't have to wear black. And I asked my brother on Thursday, do I wear black? What do we do? And we both ended up wearing black on bottom and navy on top. And then almost no one else was in black. And it was in Maine? Yeah. Can I ask what he died of? End-stage liver cirrhosis. Okay. Okay.

Lifestyle related, do you think? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. I just feel compelled to say this to you because now I feel sad. So my father died at 62. He quit in time to not have that outcome, but he continued to bang cigarettes like a

motherfucker and died of lung cancer quite young. Well, I think 62 is young. to not have that outcome, but he continued to bang cigarettes like a motherfucker and died of lung cancer quite young. Well, I think 62 is young. You're young enough for them to say that's too young at that point. So when my father died, there's this weird, like he smoked forever. He was really overweight.

He had really bad heart disease. Some part of me is not shocked. Like he calls me and he gives me the news, which is heartbreaking. And at the same time, I'm almost prepared for that. I've been prepared for that. Does that make sense? No, I talked to my brother about this a lot that especially in the last couple of years,

there were constantly these like updates about his health and we don't talk about anything. So, you know, there were these kind of very vague, but somehow very serious updates happening all the time. And we couldn't really read between the lines and figure out what are we talking about? I would just love a timeline. But we can't really ask those questions. And we were always kind of trying to interpret what was happening. And he and I were talking about how we've sort of been prepared for the call to come at any time, like for the last 10 years. Because, again, my dad was larger and had had heart problems in the past.

And yeah, generally not a man who kept his health in good order. Wasn't his top priority. Exactly. It always was just like, it could happen at any time. And if you're like me, I'm a bit of a control freak. And so something that was frustrating about my father's illness, actually not as much as my stepdad's. I'm prepared for anything.

If you tell me it's three months, I'll get there. Yes. If it's six months, I'll get there. What was maddening to me is there were these stages where it was like, well, he's dead. He stopped talking. And then my uncle would call me like, this motherfucker is walking around. And I'm almost like, no, I'm not prepared for a rebound. Yes.

The cat with nine lives. This man. Absolutely. Where I would be in the middle of production going, if I need to come home, tell me. It will probably blow up this movie because it's a very small movie and they don't have the funding, whatever.

But if that's what's happening, let me know. I'll go. It was never clear. And yes, of course, any recovery is wonderful because it means you have more time. But if I could just get a timeline, if it was six months, I know what I'm doing for the next six months. That's right. But when it was, it's probably like two years, I don't really know what to do.

Yes. You know, because I don't stop living my life for two full years. How do I navigate this? Yeah, I often say as gnarly as cancer is, it's also kind of a weird blessing in that, well, especially with my dad's small cell carcinoma, it's like, here's your three months, get after it. Oh, really? Whereas heart disease, he had that too.

To your point, I don't know, should I be going home for a month randomly? I don't know, it's the big heart attack coming. So in some weird way, I think cancers can at least be helpful in like, okay, here's our three months to solve it all together, to repair, to forgive. Yeah. Even this summer, I was looking at little places. Do I lease a place so that I can just be going home all the time? But then you visit and you're also like, oh, a fraction of what will be lost is already lost.

It's so sad. Fraction of what will be lost is already lost it's so sad fraction of what will be lost is already lost it's don't i like that i want to think about that and also this is so raw i'm sorry we're doing this right no we definitely should have been told i have people to yell at now, which is my favorite thing. You know, Anna's lost a limb, right? Did we mention that? She's going to be on day two of not having her right leg. Was he in the hospital?

He was in and out. So he actually passed about a month ago. I was home about a month before that. And he was at home, but kind of not all there. It was kind of a question of like, do we keep him at home? And he's married. So it's obviously her decision. And I think he ended up having like a seizure or something. And then very suddenly he was in the hospital and then very suddenly gone. But it's so weird to say very suddenly when you're like, but I've been prepared for the call for 10 years. Right.

This is a terrible reference, but it's kind of like show business can seem overnight. It's very similar, right? Like that guy, so many people I know, and me too, like seemingly overnight, but really like eight years. It just, when it happened, it fucking happened like gangbusters.

Yeah, it's a very weird process. Did you have stuff that you had wanted to say that you felt like you got to? I think my brother did, and that's great for him. I started therapy three years ago and was trying to be open to the idea of not literally living in the way that I've been living my whole life, which was very intense and scary. But I also felt some of therapy was giving me this idea early on, oh, everybody should communicate in this kind of healthy framework. I remember approaching my dad in that way when his sister died two years ago and being like, this doesn't feel right for me. This doesn't feel right for him. It actually did feel correct to me to kind of maintain that there were unspoken

things, but that we both understood, if that makes sense. I don't mean to denigrate anybody that does this, but I didn't need to have the hallmark thing where I spelled it out because we both understand. Yes. Okay, great. This just happened to me two weeks ago. So there have been men in my yard for two years working, and God bless them. They're working their asses off. I've been frustrated at times, but so far great behavior. The other morning, everyone's late. I don't get to meditate. This happens, that happened. I go outside, they've unplugged all my shit. That's my chargers and the thing needs to be charged, whatever. I have a very bad moment in front of about 13 men that are framing the garage. Probably two years of frustration come out and get in the car with the girls, drive them to school.

And then, of course, have a bad hangover about it. I feel like an asshole. And so throughout the day, I'm getting open to the idea that I'm going to have to apologize to these guys. What does that start like? Do you start with, I was perfectly justified to do that? How quickly do you get to, I might not have been perfectly justified to do that? On the ride home from dropping the girls off. How long is that?

I'm genuinely super curious. That's about 15 minutes. Oh, wow. Okay, that's good. 15 minutes, I'm like, A, you don't talk to people like that. B, you are so much more privileged. You're not out there swinging a fucking hammer. If I'm out there swinging a hammer and the rich asshole comes and he's pissed because I unplugged his chargers or whatever thing I was doing.

I was mad that the timers for the lights were going to be off that I just hung for Christmas. Menial, stupid shit. And I just don't want to ever talk to anyone like that. Knowing I was wrong and that I have to give them an apology. Now, getting to the part where I walk out there, that takes me about five hours before I'm ready to go do that. The whole long and short of this story is I do go out there. I go, you guys, I'm really, really sorry. I shouldn't have talked to you like that. Please accept my apology. Okay. This is what you were talking about. Midway through this apology, I'm looking at these guys' faces. There's like 13 dudes who swing hammers for a living.

And I'm realizing this is actually more painful for them than the yelling at them was. Yes. Yes. I was like, oh, my God. They probably were fine with me fucking screaming, this is my shit. And now they were like, dude, get out of here. That's so interesting. This makes me so uncomfortable.

Yes. I don't know what thing you're into. Oh, God. Yes. And so I came inside and Kristen goes, how was that apology? And I go, I think it was really rough for the guys. I think maybe I should have skipped that one. Okay, this is so interesting to me.

My oldest friend and I, we lived together when we were like 20. And when one or both of us would get too drunk and be catty and be nasty to each other. And then in the morning, it was just like, do you want to go get pancakes? Right, right. Yeah. Okay, great. In all of that was for us, I'm very, very sorry about my behavior. And I'm, and I know that you're sorry about your behavior. I would make us so much more uncomfortable to talk about it. So we'll just go get pancakes. And I know that there's some dynamics in which it is a brushing under the rug and it's really uncomfortable.

And that worked for us and for our dynamic. Each relationship is so different. Each one's allowed to have its own rules. Yeah, totally. I feel like there was a big period of time between me and you where we would get in things and then I would never apologize because we don't do that in my family. It's the same thing. There's huge blowups and huge fights. And then you just on your own kind of let that go.

Let it fall. Yeah. And no one's talking about it again. So we have this dynamic where he's very good at apologizing because of your program. Yeah. And I wouldn't. And then it was like, you never apologize. of your program. Yeah. And I wouldn't. And then it was like, you never apologize. And I was like, I guess I don't because that's not how I'm used to resolving an issue. But in this dynamic, I have to adjust because this one requires that. Yeah. Requires the repair. Yeah. I have a similar thing with my brother. He was

here for Christmas a while ago. Something had happened and I was annoyed. Nothing to do with him. And I grabbed my phone and I was walking out the door to go for a walk. And he went, you good? I went, nope. And he was like, see you later? And I was like, yep. And I knew that he wasn't going to pry and that I could say, no, I'm not okay.

But I'm not interested in any consoling or whatever right now. And then half an hour later, I came back and I was like, hey, can you come into the kitchen? I just need to yell about something and I need you to just be in the room and like witness it. And I just literally needed him to go. And you let it rip. Yeah. And I was just screaming about whatever stupid thing had happened. And I was very annoyed and it was all fine. Of course it was all fine. Of course, it was all fine in the end. But having somebody to witness and accept that I'm really angry right now, but you feel safe because you know it's not about you.

By the way, the generic stereotype, which I do find to be true, is men think you're telling them that so they are now enacted to fix it for you. That we have zero capacity to just observe and be there for you, right? But I feel like if you say that, like your brother got the gift of all gifts, which is you're like, I need to blow off some steam. Will you witness it? And he's free to just watch the show. He's not like, fuck, all right,

I'm going to call that guy and tell him. I think he's always been pretty good at that. How much older is he? He's two years older. Okay. This is the thing that fascinates me. This cliche of men need to fix and women just want to be listened to. I understand why the people that do this, because obviously I know that the cliche is that it's more men than women.

But whoever does this, that there's some altruism to framing it as I just want to help. And I have to accept that you just want to be listened to. And there's a little bit of something that I don't love. Well, I can tell you, I can be honest. Tell me. I am uncomfortable that you have emotions. And so if I can get the thing causing the emotions out of the equation, I will feel safer because your emotions scare the fuck out of me. But I think you probably had to do so much work to recognize that. And I'm so impressed with people who can go oh this is about my anxiety yeah because i really need you to be at like a calm level homeostasis for me so that i can feel safe or so that i can have all the emotions in the room

or whatever the case may be and it really irks me yeah ends up getting framed as irrational women just want to cluck cluck cluck and gossip and vent and whatever when men are trying to be logical and have solutions. Inherent in that is the suggestion that you have a solution that I haven't thought of, which is really patronizing. By the way, if you had a solution, that would be so fucking great. If you actually had a solution that completely solved my problem, I would welcome that. So I think we get annoyed when it's like, babe, that's not helping. Well, for Kristen and I, it's a mix of it. We know better than to just launch in without the precursor.

So there are times where she is enlisting me to help her fix it. There's other times she just wants to call this person an asshole. It's not looking for a solution. She's looking for compassion. Yeah. And so I can do either, but I need to know which one. I need to know what hat I'm putting on. That's so interesting.

I wonder if I'm ever aware of being in one phase or the other, because I think I would just be like, if you have a solution, great, then I don't have a problem anymore. But I don't know. There's so many things. One is we have blind spots. And when you get with somebody and you decide we're going to fucking compromise over dinner, the upside is you have a co-pilot. And so they're good at seeing the blind spots you have. There's also just perspective. So my wife's incredibly helpful in my assumption at all time. I suffer from contribution error really bad. So if someone wrongs me, it's because they're selfish and entitled all these character assassinations that I will give to them. She's great at really

assuming it's not that and painting for me a plausible picture where that's not the scenario that perhaps this person isn't evil and isn't out to steal from you and belittle your status in the world, right? And often I can't get there on my own. Her solution for me is just providing her perspective or what a potential perspective is. That does make sense. But I'll say to her sometimes, I'm not looking for you to tell me why this person's not an asshole. I just want to let it rip on why I think this person's an asshole because now I don't want to be arguing my point about why I know they are an asshole. It's not that. So I need to be clear too. That actually reminds me of one of Pete Holmes' podcast episodes. I think he might have been at a

seminar to do with spirituality and stuff. And he was telling this story about kind of letting it rip because something had gone wrong and he just needed to be in that space. And then he could get to something with more perspective, something with more compassion. Constructive, maybe. And I loved that story because my reaction initially was a little bit, really? Wasn't the whole thing that it's this spiritual thing? Like, I'm trying to remember that my goal in life is not to rise above the human condition because that won't work. Is not to judge myself or judge Pete Holmes or you with the construction guys when you have a very ugly human thing happen because the animal exists inside you whether you want it to or not.

And to suggest that there's some kind of belief system or program that can get you completely beyond that, I think is really dangerous. I totally agree with that. And I think there's a lie you're telling to yourself, which is somehow I will have a perspective that I will not suffer from this emotion. But then the emotion is just kicked down the road and then some innocuous thing happens and you're having this irrational reaction to it. So I totally agree. I don't really think you can judo your way out of experiencing the suffering that is inherent in life. But what I think you can do is, and this is so pop culture-y to say, but you can learn to observe it. So for me, I'll get angry about something and then something switches where now I'm reminding myself why I was angry for quite a long time. I'll get stuck in this maze of here's my case. Here's exhibit A, exhibit B, exhibit C. Eventually I'll be in this argument

with this person I'm mad about and I need to have all my ducks in a row. Fuck, I think I forgot one of them. Now I'm going back through the list. Sometimes I'll just have to write it down so I can stop thinking of it. So that zone of it, I do think is unnecessary for me. I was kind of stuck in that place for over a year. Building your case zone. Yes. And it was the only place that I could go to to feel safe because I knew that I couldn't actually talk about it without being unsafe. So I was just living in my head.

I can get obsessive and I absolutely felt like a like a lawyer. Like I'm just going to build an unassailable case. I will build graphs and charts. And I started quote unquote journaling every day. So for me, actually the writing it down didn't stop. It made it worse. There was a point where I had written like 300 pages. And it was a lot of the same thing over and over because there was nowhere for me to put it. And because there were things happening in my house, there was a demand that they not get talked about. Meaning publicly or even, no, no.

To your friends, you can't talk about me? I talked about it with some friends, but with him, I couldn't talk about it. Okay. So it was act like everything's fine or things will become very scary. It was while you were still in this dynamic or you had already exited it? So I was with someone and this was somebody I lived with. And for all intents and purposes, my husband, really, we had embryos together.

And, you know, this was my person. And then about six years in somewhere around there, I remember telling my brother when things had first kind of gone down, I'm living with a stranger. Like, I don't know what's happening. And I felt so confused. And it's kind of funny now, but I remember driving and being so like, what is going on? Who is this person that's living in our house? And thinking, oh, maybe he has a brain tumor. And that being like, that actually gave me a moment of relief. Yeah.

Was maybe he has a brain tumor or maybe I have a brain tumor. Can I ask, was the relief because I can still love them? Then we can do something about it. There's an answer. It's fixable. Right. And also that this change hasn't happened because I've either in the immediate recent past or just over the course of these years have done something so horrible that I deserve to be living with this stranger who scares the shit out of me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it felt like there was a mandate to not talk about the change. Can I ask really quick what the threat was? I will leave. Was that the threat? It was not just I will abandon you. It was you will become so rejectable to me that I will leave. Because the fact that you even want to talk about, it's nothing. Like, what are you talking about?

Nothing has changed. Sounds like. Yeah. And it was also I will scream at you until you are curled in a ball, Gaslighting, it sounds like. Yeah. And it was also, I will scream at you until you are curled in a ball, sobbing, and I will continue. And it was just like, I don't know who this person is. It was so terrifying. And then was it normally he's great, and then there are moments of intense, who is this person? Or did start to become the mean average? Basically, he came to visit me on a set and was acting just very strange, very distant. I was very confused.

And I tried not to get in my head about it after over a week of just being like, what on earth is going on? I finally asked him, are you OK? Is there anything I need to be worried about? Are we good? And the worst possible thing was I was like, please don't say this girl's name. Please don't. And he started talking about this girl. And it was like, this is terrifying, but okay, let's go talk about this because I want

to know. This is awful, but let's go talk about it. And I'm assuming this is another girl that he has feelings for. Yeah. I mean, the next year of my life became, no, I didn't. It was nothing. You know, I shouldn't have even said anything. But immediately when we got back to this hotel room where I was filming, it became, I don't want to talk about this. What are you? You started to talk about it and then was like, actually, I don't want to. And you're like, but now I can't unhear that.

But now I can't unhear this thing. Yeah. Again, this is really scary. Using the rationale, well, I'm not going to be punished for being honest with you. Yes. Yeah. don't want to and you're like but now I can't hear this thing yeah again this is really scary using the rationale well I'm not going to be punished for being honest with you yes yeah which again was not being punishing was just going through what now needs to be gone through was just going can we please talk about this this is really scary and really confusing and I love you and I want to make it work and also if there's something that's been going on, like if you've been unhappy, tell me, I want to know, I want to work on it. And when I got home,

it was kind of the same over the following week. I tried to bring it up three times. The first time it was just very, I don't even know why we're talking about this. And then it became increasingly hostile each time I tried to talk about it until it was, You need to get over this. I'm curled in a ball. You're screaming at me. I don't know how we got here. It was so alarming and it was so much easier for me to assume that I was crazy or doing something wrong. This is like a weird thing to say, but I ended up listening to the show a lot. This one?

This show. Okay. And so I think it would be like, if your dynamic was, you're the kind of nutty one and Kristen's the saint and everybody knows it. And then she's screaming at you and telling you you're crazy. I think you'd be likely to believe it.

Right, right, right, right, right. Sure. The world tells you something. Yeah. I've just always felt he was so cool, calm, collected that I must be provoking this. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Sasha hated sand, the way it stuck to things for weeks. So when Maddie shared a surf trip

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this big gig where she's going to DJ in front of, I don't know, 100,000 people. And this guy gets drunk. He's now resentful. She has to be in interviews. He's threatened. He feels small. He's quote emasculated. And he starts acting like a fucking asshole. And I was watching that and I was thinking, it has to be so hard to be a successful woman and have a relationship because it'll sound like I'm making excuses for men, but this is just, I'll say part of it. There's no example of it. Everyone grew up with a dad that was the breadwinner. And so it's emasculating to A, not be the breadwinner. That's like right out of the gates. And then the attention and then the insecurity. And now these really bizarre acts of trying to get control of it. I think it's very common for women of great power to be cheated on.

That's like the only way the male can feel like he has gotten one over on her. I just have so much sympathy for so many successful women. And I think there's fewer men than there should be that are equipped to be the partner of someone's really successful. And I think it's really a bummer. Yeah, I think you might be right. And it was really difficult for me to accept that because I just thought of him as the best and also so deeply important to me. I was so madly in love with him that I thought, well, but surely you know how important you are because you're so important to me. Exactly. And there was a permanence to it. It felt completely. I would

also argue there's a kind of a double betrayal, which is because I am this concept to the rest of the world. Yes. I need you so much. I'm my little human who takes shits and gets sick. You know that more intimately than anyone. Yes. That was such a surprising piece of what unfolded. Basically, he caught feelings and everybody is totally allowed to feel how they feel about that

in terms of what is and is not a deal breaker for them in any relationship. It was not a deal breaker for me. What are we doing? You know, let's talk about it. And he did not want to do that. There were more reasons why that I found out later. It ended up becoming this issue because he behaved so badly that then I was sort of living with, I don't know how to be around you. And I know that I can't bring up the fact that I'm now scared of you. Because when I say something that even suggests that, you get really scary. Yeah. Do you think it's because you were in some weird way challenging his own identity? Now, obviously, I look at it and I go, this was such an intense shame trigger

for him. The idea that I was the fucking cliche guy who fell in love with a girl who's 20 years younger than me. And you're just like, oh, dude, you're so boring. You know, that part of it, first of all. The next part of it is. And then I screamed at my girlfriend until she was crying. I mean, that's a bad dude move. And we would go to couples therapy. And I would try to open any conversation with, I totally

understand the way that when we get attention from the opposite sex, especially when it's somebody attractive and someone interesting, that's so addictive. I mean, it's heroin. Are you kidding? And like, my love, all that means is you're human. That's totally fine. Like I was just like trying to give him so much absolution. But the second that I went to, and also I'm hurt and confused and I would love repair. It was, I don't know why we're, you know, and it's taken me two years to kind of get to a place of knowing

what was happening inside of him when I would bring up anything other than you are the love of my life and you walk on water, was I was burning him alive. I really didn't want to hear this for like a year, but I think that that internal experience for him was genuine. It was actually important to me to acknowledge that it was coming from a genuine place of

unbelievable, immediate pain, suffering, terror for him. Because I think that's why it was so effective on me as like a gaslighting tool. Because it was genuine. That I was doing something terrible to him. He was in pain. I'm the monster here. Yes. And yes, that pain is based on a distortion that has nothing to do with me. But I think that pain was absolutely real. This man is not a good actor. You know, like not a good liar, not a good actor. He literally said to me once, I was just having a day, it was around Christmas,

where I just couldn't kind of fake it or whatever. And I started crying. And he was at first going like, what's wrong? And I think I was just like, are you happy with me? Like, or do you still want to be with me? You know, because we'd been in these periods of talking about it and then silence, whatever. And he went,

do you realize how unfair this is to me? You are terrorizing me. And I was, again, this is a position I was in many times. This is so much like the movie, by the way. Curled in a ball sobbing.

Yeah. You know, going, I'm terrorizing you, but I don't think that he would have said it if it wasn't true. going, I'm terrorizing you? But I don't think that he would have said it if it wasn't true. Well, I have a theory.

Tell me. I think in his court case, at whatever point he decided to let you in on what he had felt about someone else, in his court case, you were going to blow up.

He was going to be able to write that off as you overreacted and you're being unrealistic about the human condition. And you went the other way, which he was totally ill-prepared for, which is compassion, understanding, to write that off as you overreacted and you're being unrealistic about the human condition and you went the other way which he was totally ill prepared for which is compassion understanding and an attempt to heal from it and then he went holy fuck on top of it she's that good

god am i a fucking piece like i could have handled you saying you're like a piece of yes and then her kindness yeah is really demonstrating how bad of a mistake it was. Had you yelled at him, I bet he was prepared for that. Oh my God, that's so interesting. I bet that in his mind was like, he was going to be able to deal with that route. But you being loving and understanding, he almost caught on fire with shame in that point. And I'm sure he wants you in some ways to be the villain here. Of course.

Everyone wants the other person to be the villain. This is so wild because about a year plus into this, I said, can we please go back to couples therapy? And we did a couple sessions of couples therapy. And then there was one session where for the first time I lost my mind. I started screaming because once again, he was like, I just shouldn't have ever said anything. And I just started going, how does that help me? And I was like screaming,

like the kind of thing where you think like, you know, five neighbors down, they can probably hear you. This was Zoom. And I just thought, I can't even imagine what's coming after this. And it was weirdly okay. And I realized, oh, the worst thing that I could do to him is be calm and reasonable and kind and make good points.

He would vibrate with shame, what I now understand to be shame. I'm going to add a layer. When he was developing this relationship on the side, he came up with a narrative about you that justified it. Yes. Yeah, that's what I mean. You're gone. Yes. He had this whole story about you where he was justified. And then he tells you, and then you're none of the things also that he's been telling himself to justify it.

So it's like, A, this whole thing I concocted is bullshit. And B, she's showing me love and compassion and understanding. I am a fucking evil monster. This is too much. I can't accept I'm an evil monster. And now I'm going to go on the offensive. Another layer is that I wasn't just unabashedly giving him daily heapings of praise. Uh-huh, right, right. Because that was just part of the dynamic. If you're my partner, I'm your cheerleader. And that was mutual.

I want that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Words of affirmation. Sure. That's wonderful. Nothing pathological about that. But I think especially because I was like, are you coming or going? I wasn't instinctually—

You were protecting yourself. Yes, on the daily going, You're brilliant. You're wonderful. I'm so lucky, which was every day for six years. So I think there was like a oh, well, then actually clearly you do make me feel like a piece of shit. And maybe this other girl will make me feel great. Are you disappointed that it took you a year? What makes this story so plausible is that you've got so much invested. You've spent so much time together. You've got so much invested. You've spent so

much time together. You've frozen an embryo. You're so committed, you have to maintain hope that it can be salvaged. A thousand percent. I have so much shame about not leaving. I think that's the cruelest double whammy of all of it. Just so you know, when I interviewed my mom, I was like, you're such a bad motherfucker. How did we have a stepdad that beat you up? Yeah. And she's like, my shame of failing at this thing a second time was stronger than the physical abuse.

Oh, that's so sad. And I'm like, oh, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom. The self-inflicted shame is so cruel. What does it stem from though? It's a bunch. I've got a grab bag. It wasn't just the, oh, I'm losing a relationship. It was that I believed that if we broke up or, you know, if he left, basically, it was a confirmation that it's because I'm impossible. I'm lucky that he's even tolerating my bullshit. There was an inherent thing of me being so rejectable that this person who loved me very deeply for six years, it suddenly occurred to him how awful I was or something.

The shame that lingers much longer now of, why didn't I leave? I was just talking to somebody about this at a screening of the movie that I have right now. You have a line that says, he wouldn't love me if he knew how bad I am. Yeah. Which is the most heartbreaking line in it. That line makes sense to me because in that moment, my character's in such a panicked, regressed state.

Because that's a very simplistic line. But it makes sense that at the core of it, when you're in that terror panic regression, that's how it comes out. And that's exactly how it feels. They've convinced you. Yeah. When FKA Twigs was coming out and talking about her experience of abuse, she, I think mentioned that she called a friend of hers or maybe someone she used to date and was like, how did you put up with me? And I had that impulse to call like an ex of mine. We were together for five years and we're still very close. Call him and be like, was I just impossible? How did you tolerate me? And then I have this shame now. I hate that that

worked. The woman at this screening was like, I didn't know how to call myself a feminist after this. And there definitely was part of me that was like, my mother raised me better than this. How am I the girl during the pandemic locked in my bathroom at the far side of my house that I own? Because I'm such a bad motherfucker, right? So fucking pathetic. You think you've got shit together. And then I'm locked in the bathroom FaceTiming with my two best friends and sobbing and whispering so that he doesn't hear. and sobbing and whispering so that he doesn't hear. Oh man. The saddest part for me is you gave someone the most incredible gift of compassion

that didn't really deserve it. And you were able to give that and you aren't giving any to yourself. You're giving zero compassion to yourself. Oh yeah. It's kind of like why con artists go uncaught because it's so embarrassing to admit you've been conned. Completely.

It was hard for me to recognize this as an abusive relationship because it didn't follow the trajectory of the frog in water. This is unusual that it's six years of very happy, loving relationship and then overnight shift. And the only thing that felt very similar was when I would hear stories about con artists. And like, there was like a season of Dr. Death, maybe season two or three, where that felt very similar, where she kind of ended up catching him and everything

and his reaction to that. Sociopath mode. Yeah. I'm always like, how much do I even talk about this? Because the fact that I even ended up talking about it at all was kind of a mistake. When you first admitted that the movie related. Yeah. I'm always like, how much do I even talk about this? Because the fact that I even ended up talking about it at all was kind of a mistake. When you first admitted that the movie related. Yeah. It was just like a 10 minute thing that was just on my schedule. And then I was onto the next thing. And for just a moment, I forgot the mantra of Anna, you're not under oath and they're not your friends. And I don't mean anything negative to that journalist. He didn't

do anything wrong, but I just was saying it. And I think part of that was that very early, almost immediately after getting out, I started saying it to anybody that asked, like my plumber, like Darren, my plumber, like just casually asked how things were. And I was like, really bad. So here's what happened. And it was like, I couldn't swallow the shame anymore. So it just started like, yes. But that's what cures it. I could not agree more, but definitely wasn't planning on that day in this 10 minute phoner to like, just talk about it. We also have bravery and courage very flipped.

You getting nominated for a role, it's not that brave. You love acting. You love singing. You're good at it. You worked hard at it. That's not hard. You're not confronting something that terrifies you. So for you, oh my God, if I'm a person that was in this relationship, I'm not a feminist. I'm not strong. I'm not worthy of any love. I'm a failure, a disappointment. To walk through that is not just far more brave, like as an act of bravery, also just fucking helpful.

Again, none of your accomplishments can help anybody with anything. They can't. That's so true. If I ask you like, well, how did you learn to sing? Oh, but can I tell you something really interesting? So I'm very fortunate to have a fan base of young women, particularly young queer women. And many times I've seen online people saying, you saved my life and whatever. And I always want to say to them, I didn't.

You saved your life. And like just for one moment or two, something filled up your cup enough that day for you to do the unbelievably backbreaking work of saving your own life. It's really interesting that you are phrasing it in that way because that's how I felt about this show. This one you're on right now. Armchair Expert Live. Yeah. Like, I actually had to remind myself I did that.

Yeah. Yes. But this show, oh, that's so embarrassing. No. Oh my God, are you kidding? That's like the biggest honor we could ever get. And by the way, what I'm saying about the helpfulness is you're not going to tell a story from your life that some young woman listens to. And they relate to being on Broadway.

They relate to this. They relate to the success of Bitch Perfect. Someone listening is in a relationship identical. And not someone. Probably a few thousand people are listening oh someone that powerful and strong and successful it happened to them i'm not a piece of shit i'm not alone i'm not broken and failed that's like the craziest gift you can give to somebody none of the other stuff's helpful at all truly yeah when you do get married and have a baby, we'll talk about it, but it's not going to help anyone.

People are getting married and having babies. They're fine. Right, right. Going back to the FK twigs thing, I think there was something that she said that was, you know, I just want people to know this can happen to anybody. It doesn't matter if you're successful or whatever. It was like the first thing like that that I had read on the other side of it. that I had read on the other side of it. And I have some shame about this too,

that I think if I had read that four years ago, I would have read that and thought, of course, of course, it can happen to anybody, but not to me. But not me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not because I think I'm smarter or stronger or something. Honestly, I'm like, I'm such an asshole. So the idea that I would be feeling so helpless

just didn't track. And so I have also thought about the idea that people might hear this and they might relate to it. And so, of course, I've been trying to think of what do I wish I had heard? What do I wish somebody had said to me that would have gotten me to turn the lights on? And I have, again, so much shame about saying this

because I don't think there was anything. Yeah. Well, I think what can happen, this is how AA works at least. You're listening to someone from a safe distance and little things start feeling very familiar and relatable. You're like, huh, what are the odds that that's 90% my story and that I'm so unique in the remaining 10 that that's not me? Yeah. And it's not directed at me and that's the magic of like group.

Everything is, you're not telling me shit. You have no opinion about the person listening. They're not on trial. They don't need to be defensive. They're just hearing something and then you hear like seven or eight things. You're like, oh, I thought that I was kind of unique in that. Oh, I guess I'm not.

I guess I'm in the same situation. For me, you couldn't have gotten through to me by saying, because you drink this amount at this time of day, and this is metrically why empirically you're an addict. I'd be like, sure, by all accounts, but I'm a beast. I can take all that shit and show up to work and write and be in groundlings and go to UCLA. So that's someone else. You're talking about a dude in the street. But when I'm listening to me,

like, oh, this motherfucker's done all the same shit I'm doing and he was just as fucked up. That's what I hear. Yeah, I did start going to Al-Anon while all this was going on. I mean, look, I truly dismantled my life. And at first that was as a reaction to the accusation that I was crazy

and I was the one causing the problem. So I had a conversation with CAA, my agency, and said, I need to take time off. Like, I have a mental health problem. So I started seeing two therapists a week and I started trying to learn to meditate and I got into Al-Anon and all of these things ended up being very wonderful things for me in the long run, but initially went into them thinking, tell me how to stop being crazy. Tell me how to stop feeling anything. Can I ask, and this would be probably hard and painful for you to say, but he couldn't have found any purchase in your fears

had you not believed some element of this, I'm guessing at least. Sure. There was a specific thing he went after. It did have an absolute kernel of truth because at first it was you're insecure. And I was like, dude, I'm telling you. There were times when I was like, go to Burning Man and fuck 10 girls for all I care.

Whatever's happening, it's fine. I'm so uninterested in blowing up a relationship over anything physical. That was part of the deal. That was totally fine. And you're calling me insecure? Right, right, right, right. But when it became, I don't feel good about you having full-blown feelings for someone else.

So let's talk about that. And the thing that he would go after is, I know your brain. You're like a dog with a bone. You obsess over things, which as I've said earlier, absolutely true. That compulsion to go over things and go over things. So it was, your brain is broken. It's uniquely cruel though, because you gave them a gift by being honest with them about your own insecurities and the stuff that you struggle with. And then to have it used against you is to me, the worst thing someone can do to another person. It's so cruel. I mean,

someone can do to another person. It's so cruel. I mean, it's so bad. It's so bad. But I do want to say earlier, don't you think this has given you a ton of empathy? When you have done a thing that you feel was impossible, when you heard like, oh, this could happen to anyone, but it could definitely not happen to me. Like, that's just not part of my story. That's not who I am. That could definitely not happen to me. Like, that's just not part of my story. That's not who I am. And then it is. Aren't you left with like, wow, anything is possible.

Anyone can behave any way. It brings a lot of empathy. Well, I mean, and also, yes, I did go into therapy going, tell me either how to force an outcome or tell me how to stop feeling any human feeling about this. And luckily, I had a very talented therapist. I ended up going down to just one therapist eventually. And like, I'm totally obsessed with her. But very slowly, she ended up, I didn't want her to. And probably if I had known that this was happening, I might have blown out of therapy. But what she did teach me to do was look at my own experience and decide what I wanted and start drawing boundaries. And that was really scary and really hard. And it is what ended the relationship. But I also feel like my obsessive mind is a curse, but it is also a great resource.

And I have been so obsessed with psychology for the last two and a half years. Did you watch studs? No, I haven't yet, but I cannot wait. It came out while I was filming and I am, I just saw the trailer, so I don't know where it goes, but I am like, oh, my impulse is to make a documentary about my therapist. And why do I have that impulse? What is that about that? I need her to love me. And I'll prove that I'm the best little child you could possibly have. And I'm gonna do this whole project. Mom, hang it on the fridge.

Hang it on the fridge for me. Because this is how I get safe. I'm gonna produce for you and I'm gonna show you how much I love you. I don't wanna do this prematurely because we're in a lovely zone, but I will say one thing's a quick compliment. So I've known Kristen for 15 years.

She has only had jealousy over a single human, and it's been you. I never saw it. It blew my mind. Kristen was like, who's this other short person? Oh, so she can sing like that too. Oh. She's a really good actress. I'm already here.

We got another one? And I asked her if I could tell you that today. And she said, oh my God, yes, of course. I want to preface it by that. In the whole 15 years, she's had nothing but benevolence for everyone. And she monitored you, recognized how brilliant you were, lost some roles to you, and slowly processed the whole thing and has nothing but wonderful feelings for you. But you're the only person that ever made her jealous that I witnessed.

I mean, I know this is an audio thing, but I really feel like I have like a comically shocked look on my face. I thought that would interest you. Secondly, you guys are so fucking similar from the outside. I don't know you, but really young performer, singer, around adults.

Yeah. People pleaser. gotta be perfect. Her great arc, you know, we have different ones crisscrossing, but hers is learning to not people please, learning to set boundaries, learning to be okay and at peace with the idea that not everyone will love them. That whole journey for her is her kind of journey. And I'm just wondering with some of these similarities. First of all, so many things. Man, that is bizarre. Because I had been debating, depending on how this conversation went, sort of saying, gosh, I actually have a funny thing with your wife where I never felt like she liked me. And I do think that a massive percentage of that is just genuinely when it

comes to like really sweet, angelic blonde girls, I just assume they think I'm weird. They think I'm this like weird little troll. And I don't think of Kristen as short. I think of her as just this angel. And she's so sweet. And I feel so rough around the edges that I was like, oh, she must not like me. Oh, no. I'm sure that's just my projection. That's not actually how she feels. Can I ask?

Because I do this too, by the way. Luckily, sometimes I'm confirmed right. Most of the time I'm not. What proof in your mind when you were like, I don't think she likes me? What were you basing that on? I couldn't you right i couldn't tell you just a hunch well this is so interesting because i don't know where to put that now because maybe there was just some energetic thing there in all likelihood there wasn't but it was just my typical thing of certain women who look a certain way scare me and i just assume that they won't like me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I will also say another thought that was coming up as you were describing that, kind of going back to the, this kind of thing would never happen to me because I'm such an asshole, is I definitely don't have a reputation that she has of being just the sweetest little honey bear. Like, absolutely not my reputation. Oh, okay, okay. So you don't have a problem normally with having boundaries and being disliked? It's really tricky. Somebody once told me, I was just about to work with someone and they were like, oh, I was asking around about you. And I was like, oh, what'd you hear?

And they were like, oh, a friend of mine, and I won't say who it is. And I've never found out who it was, which I would love to genuinely, said that you are 10% defiant. And I loved that. Yeah. 10% defiant. I loved that so much. That sounds like a compliment to me. That was absolutely a compliment to me.

But I do think that I have a classic Kendrick family tradition to have a real problem with authority. We always have a problem with our boss. I, to my detriment, have never had a problem talking back to producers. I'm like the little chihuahua

that thinks she's a Doberman. I definitely don't think of myself as hyper-agreeable in those scenarios at all. But which is why in this relationship. Yes. And all the more reason why it was like, but I am the asshole, right? So I guess it must be me. I can be bristly. And I know that about myself.

I can be abrasive. When I first started getting into like researching psychology, whatever, I was thinking about the fact that I had said to my brother, I feel like I'm living with a stranger. And I was trying to figure out what's going on with him, what was going on with me. And my first conclusion that I clung to for a long, long time, and there are still days that I ask my therapist, I went, oh, I have borderline. And this is splitting. Look, it's a very WebMD, like a terrible understanding of it. But I was so desperate for answers. I kept trying to get my therapist to diagnose me with some kind of egocentronic disorder

because at least I could work on that. My therapist is like, I don't deal in diagnoses. It's just not something I do, which drove me crazy. Because I was like, that means that I'm crazy and you're not telling me. Also, you can't attack a problem without a name. You can't research it and you can't. I can't obsess over it and build my case. You're totally powerless.

And I'll read seven books about it. And yeah, that was all I was doing was just reading self-help books and highlighting. And so, yeah, I mean, for a year of my life, I stopped working. I went to program. I was in therapy. Again, wonderful things in the long run, but I was using them for the wrong reasons. And when I first got into Al-Anon, the stuff about in any dynamic, you have to kind of recognize your role and take responsibility for the role that you're playing in this dance and in this system and in this dynamic. I was interpreting that as the way

that he was saying it, which was, I scream at you because you provoke me, rather than like, I'm staying. That was the role I was playing, was I was staying. And I was trying to compulsively figure out how to fix myself and how to fix him. And I felt like that was something that kind of illustrated to me the way that even the most helpful tools can be kind of weaponized by someone else or against yourself. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert,

if you dare. Order up for Damien. Hey, how did your doctor's appointment go, by the way? Did you ask about Rebelsis? Actually, I'm seeing my doctor later today. Did you say Rebelsis? My dad's been talking about Rebelsis. Rebelsis? Really?

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And need unique business banking tools to help you get there. With BMO's Cashback Business Mastercard, I get more cash back on my restaurant expenses, so then I can invest more on what's next for Stellina. Be ready for your next step with the BMO Cashback Business Mastercard I have a weird question because also this is a similarity with Kristen. this is a similarity with Kristen. She's incredibly effusive with people she loves deeply about their greatness. I think she's always calling out your greatness when you're close to her. Do you ever think that part of that in your dynamic with your boyfriend was an everyday words of affirmation, throwing a lot of positivity his way. Was it a tool? Obviously, nobody's thought about this more than me and my obsessive brain.

And I have tried really hard to figure out if something went so terribly wrong and is my before and after, how do I reconcile what happened before that and what was real and what wasn't? I still struggle with it and I'm still open to my feelings about it changing, but I actually think it would be so much easier for me to go, oh, it was never real and he never loved me and we were never this and it was always fake. And it's so much worse to be like a big chunk of it was real. And then I hit the one thing I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to hit, which was you did something wrong. Yeah.

Like all I did was tell him he walked on water because I believed he walked on water. I just adored him. But you know no one walks on water, right? No. Hold on. No, no, no, no. I'm saying that seriously because. No, I mean, look, you're right.

And there were obviously times that I found him annoying or corny or whatever. And I'm sure that that was the same for him. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, me like by osmosis and that if he were me and had my resources and my access and my money or whatever which by the way he did he would use it differently and better and use it to make himself happy again it was that thing of like but no one has more intimately and up close seen that none of this changes anything for you like surely the lesson that you've learned by being with me is that there will always be another brass ring and it won't fucking make you happy. Listen, here's what's really fucking tricky. Before I say that, I have to be ultra clear with you.

She never disliked you. I just want to say that for the record. Never disliked. Jealous, which I had never seen. And that is so unfathomable to me. But I just want to be dead clear so that when we all walk away, I was I had never seen. And that is so unfathomable to me. But I just want to be dead clear so that when we all walk away, I was clear that never dislike, total admiration for your talent.

Jealousy, just had never seen it. So kind. I can feel myself even moving away from that part of the conversation because I'm so like, what? I just want to deny your conclusion that she disliked you. That's actually not true. But do take away she was very jealous of you at a point. Fascinating.

Okay, here's my weird little soapbox-y thing. So he envied you. And that is fucking so dangerous in a relationship. Power dynamics. He couldn't have compassion for you because you had everything he wanted for himself. When he's looking at you crying on the ground, a normal human reaction would be, I'm hurting a human being. This is terrible. But no, I'm hurting this bitch who has every fucking thing I want and doesn't deserve it. It's not using it correctly. You can't have compassion when you have great envy for somebody.

Partners have to be peers. And it doesn't have to be financial. But if you literally have all the things I really want, it's very dangerous. I don't know that someone can be so evolved that they can find compassion for the person they're very envious of. Interesting. Well, I think that had to be part of it, if this makes sense, because envy, and I'm so glad you used that word, because I do think that there's something in envy specifically that doesn't just feel like you have what I want. It feels like you have what I want, and that is the thing that is preventing me from having what I want. And I think that it made him more comfortable to have a narrative that I was holding him back somehow. I can admit to this. And when I interviewed her, I admitted to it.

But when I dated Kate Hudson, I felt very less than. I was like in the worst stretch of three bomb movies in a row. It was clear to me I would not be the lead of any movies in the near future. She was at the top of her earning potential. at the top of her earning potential. And I found myself having way too many opinions about what she should or shouldn't be doing. I didn't vocalize them, but I thought, wow, you have this crazy opportunity I'd kill for.

I would have that position of, you're kind of mismanaging this. And by the way, if it fails, I'm going to actually feel vindicated that I was right. And that's because I was feeling very less than around the whole thing. I would never have that opinion over now, but I felt that way at times. And I wish I hadn't, but I did. Well, also, if we're calling out weird, confusing, ugly human emotions, I'm going now that I've just had a couple minutes to settle with that thing about Kristen.

First of all, that's so unbelievable to me. And now I'm going like, that makes me feel nice. Good. I intended it to make you feel nice. Because obviously she's unbelievably talented and successful in all the things. So that's just weird. To high honor.

But like, I mean, I wish that I don't know. But we want, we all want, myself included, we want to do all things. It's so specific that it's not just, oh, someone says, oh, I really admire your career. You go, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Right, no. And then it's like, oh, I'm jealous of you. You're like, me? Yes.

Thank you. I try to tell people. The ultimate compliment I can give someone is when I'm watching their thing. Fuck this person. Why can't I think of that? Fuck you. I hate you. The first episode of this show that I ever listened to was Esther Perel.

I was in a relationship crisis. So believe it or not, I came to this podcast for the relationship crisis talk. Yeah. And I was just consuming everything that Esther Perel did. And when I started recommending the show to people, I was like, oh, you know, I came for some Esther Perel. the show to people, I was like, oh, you know, I came for Semester Perel, but then there was some episode where you very casually were like, well, obviously I stopped going to co-ed meetings because I just need the female validation too much, to be honest. And I was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, I'm staying. I'm staying forever. I'm going to curl up in this and I'm

going to stay forever because, and I actually said this to Pete Holmes because I eventually started listening to his podcast as well. I would go on these hikes during the pandemic because we were trapped in a house together. And I would go on the hikes to just sort of get away. And I would listen to this show. And just having like an hour of male vulnerability was just so heart opening. Oh, that makes me so happy. Because it was like, then I go back to a place where we do not admit fault. We don't admit anything. His behavior became a little

more stark. Yes. And so to even have this conversation going, there comes a point where I love a movie and I start hating the movie because I'm so jealous. Oh, I just feel so juicy and so warm and I'm so happy because it is just, if this man could have just said, I got caught up in a thing and now I'm so embarrassed. If he had actually said to me, I can't talk about it because I'm too ashamed, I think I would have been fine with it. Yeah. But it wasn't that. It was you're crazy.

But he can't do that. Yes. I'm bummed for him that he couldn't. I've had so many phases of going, oh, I feel really sorry for him. For a while, I couldn't even hear that he was genuinely suffering. I would get very triggered by the suggestion that there was actual pain because I was like, no, it was just a manipulation. And then it took me a while to go, oh, no, I think the pain was extremely real to him. Well, you need the first story to leave.

I have also been at the place now where I'm going like, oh, I just want healing for him. I just want him to get help. I just want everybody to get help. And there are times where I want him or those people or whatever to rot, you know, especially when it's someone telling me about like their parent. I try to have compassion and wish healing for them and only do that when it is authentic and genuine, like in my little heart oh then there are times where i'm like oh i want you to get flayed alive yeah like you abused your kid my dream scenario at all times is i get to beat the shit out of that person physically for a while oh and then i help them heal that to me would be the perfect arc you've just given me the a juicy daydream to occupy the next several months.

And then help them back. Like Stockholm syndrome. Yeah. Great, great, great. Like torture techniques. That's great. Break them. Psychologically break them.

But again, that's you giving him compassion in a way that you're not giving yourself. It's true. That's true. You're saying, I feel sad for that person. You should feel sad for you. Then look back at that girl on the floor and say, oh my, I feel sad for her. Yes. A, I do want to say the compassion that I have for him now is no longer coming from a codependent Al-Anon place and is coming from a place of integrity, the kind of person

that I want to be and the asshole in me doesn't always want to be. But when I was making Alice Darling, there were things that I knew about Alice that the director didn't know. She'd not been in a relationship like this. Almost everybody else that came onto the movie had because that's where we were drawn to it. The first day she was like, oh, can we just steal a shot of you in the hammocks and maybe you're reading a book. And immediately I went, oh, I can absolutely be holding the book. I would go out to the hammock with the intention of reading the book. And I would stare into the middle distance and be trapped in a loop.

And I would not be able to read more than a paragraph because my body is in such a heightened state of fight or flight. There is no fucking way I'm reading that book. Right. And it was like, oh, that makes me feel so bad for Alice. Yeah. And it's not that that immediately healed me or anything like that. And I really object to the idea

that creating art about something heals you. The process of it can be helpful. And I hope that I've been clear about that in any other interview that I've done. But I think people still like to say that, oh, Anna Kendrick said that making this movie was healing. Pieces of it were healing. But if anything, that moment gave me some more compassion for myself. And it certainly illuminated areas where it was like, ah, that's something I've been neglecting about my own experience that

I'm going to need to pull apart. Yeah. I wonder if this is related and forgive me because I know you've already heard it a thousand times if you listen to the show and so has everyone else. But my process with being molested was so confusing because first I acknowledge it happened. That's its own thing. Then you hear reflexively from everyone, well, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. You're a kid. It's not your fault, it's not your fault. It wasn't healing to me in any way because I actually knew there were some things that were my fault. I was in a situation I didn't like being in,

but I wanted a thing, and I did have spidey senses, and I had guilt and shame over my participation. This is for me personally. I'm not saying other people have this, but I had this. I first had to own that. Yeah, I knew I shouldn't be there. I felt it a few times I shouldn't be there. Now, and I was seven.

And I forgive you, Dax. You were seven and you wanted a thing and you got yourself in a situation that was bad. That didn't cure it for me that I was a victim. I needed to first own the thing that was burrowed in me, the guilty part, and first just go, yeah, I didn't listen to my body. I think if someone jumps out of an alley

and rapes you at gunpoint, that's one experience. But often predators, they're great at getting you to participate in some way and make you culpable. Like, that's what they're great at. So I first had to just allow myself to admit I had moments where I didn't want to be there and I shouldn't have been there. But I pushed through because I wanted a thing. Okay, that's the truth. Now what?

Okay, and you were seven and did that. I can forgive you. That was the steps that i had to go through so i almost am curious if it's like there's some part of you that feels guilt because you violated your truth on numerous occasions and you knew to even compare the two feels strange no i don't think so when you betray yourself little dex little anna it's a very unique feeling and it's i think it's the thing that hurts the most is well fuck i'm not expecting the world to treat me great but i'm expecting me to treat me great yeah i think to even acknowledge my own attachment needs

makes me feel very weak especially because i was always kind of the girl that wasn't in a relationship so to acknowledge i was trying to save my relationship doesn't feel like a sufficient enough reason, especially because there are some maybe not great and oversimplified catchphrases around feminism that suggest you don't need no man. But I have an attachment need that I would like to have met. So it doesn't feel great to give myself that grace because I'm going like, well, I was trying to save my relationship. There's something about being a woman and saying that that feels very trivial. It gets hard to forgive myself because I should have just been like, get the fuck out of my house. But I think that I would have always wondered, well, was that fair? And what obviously-

Could I have saved that? Could we have fixed it? And I ended up taking one pin out of the pin drawer, pin box, who knows, whatever. Pin cushion. Pin cushion, that's what it is. I ended up finding out some capital T truth and was exposed to year long text exchange and went, oh, I was right about everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. And it was actually way worse than I even thought. And I did think that when we were back in couples therapy, this is a year plus in, and he is screaming at me. It was a passing crush. You're so insecure. I never saw a relationship with this girl. I even told my best friend, I never saw a relationship with this girl to actually see in writing after a week of fucking you i want to blow up my life for you and like just say the word and we'll ride off into the sunset together and that she rejected him and that's the other layer of oh don't fucking bring this up because

then i have to confront how fucking cringe she was like no thank you i'm good to know like oh no you said it and i didn't actually think that you could lie to my face with such intensity and conviction so basically i think i would have always wondered was i being unreasonable had i not gotten to this kind of truth and when i confronted him on it said, I don't know what you're talking about. Which again, was kind of a relief. Because you go, oh, you're pathological. Right. There's no fitness. This is in black and white. And I ended up emailing this young woman and saying, I just think it's fair that you know that I know and I don't put this at your doorstep.

You made a mistake, but you know, you're 25 and we've all done stupid shit. I very much lay this at his doorstep and I just wanted you to know that. I don't know why we would ever be in a room together, but if we were, I just kind of need you to know. And if I were you, I wouldn't want to talk to me, but if you ever wanted to talk, I'm more than willing. And to her eternal credit, she was like, yes, can I call you?

And we talked on the phone for about an hour. And she was just like, I'm so embarrassed. And I'm so sorry. Especially when you're that young. You're like, this was forever ago. You know, right? She's like, why is this coming up? And she was like, this was a mistake. And also, yes, I think over the last year have tried to just remain friendly, which was probably also a mistake. And I have also flirted, which was also a mistake. And to just for like an hour be honest. That's all she did was just say, I'm so sorry. I feel terrible. And yes, this happened.

And even though I had seen it in black and white, it was infinitely more valuable to me. And it landed finally in my body hearing her say it. Yeah. And so much of healing is relational. It was so magical to me that after all that evidence cataloging that I had been doing, after writing down the dates and the times and the places, because he would say something and I would say no no no you told me that on October 11th and you got that script on October 19th and I still remember these dates you know I had it all in

black and white and there was still part of me when he said I don't know what you're talking about that my body wouldn't believe that I'd seen the proof yes And it was her saying it and having compassion that was like, oh, this was real. I hadn't eaten in a week. I couldn't sleep. I couldn't eat. I had this conversation with this girl and we hung up and I was like, oh, I need a plate of nachos. Like my whole body just went, okay, you can grieve. You're not crazy. You just went okay you can grieve you're not crazy you're safe you can grieve you can have nachos and you can have a glass of wine and it was also a moment where i went oh i had like a deeper understanding of addiction and the people in my life that deal with addiction because i was like i just happened to not get the gene that's all that happened

because i would have done anything to make that feeling stop and if i happened not get the gene. Totally. That's all that happened. Because I would have done anything to make that feeling stop. And if I happened to have the gene that meant that using anything would have stopped that feeling, I would have fucking done it. And I just happened to not have that. Totally. And it was like my whole body got whatever it needed. It at least stopped that total panicked state that I'd kind of been in for a year. Did the switch happen in him,

you know, like the light switch, after he got rejected by her? That's a really good question. And for somebody who's cataloged so many dates, I'm surprised I don't have a perfect answer. Like he was also mourning another relationship. Right. Perhaps.

Right. A fantasy of I'll be with her and I'll be wonderful. And now I'm not. And so then two things are happening. He's living. He's being with you and he's mourning another thing. I just want to say one thing, which I'm sure you already think of and thought of. But a trick I use is I imagine that a stranger at an AA meeting is telling my story.

Because I know if you had a friend that had your whole story, you would be like, oh my God, sweetie, of course that happened. You'd fucking dedicated five years of your life to this person. Of course that happened. Well, I think I got so convinced that I was not a credible person or a sane person, that I expected that any time I told any of this to anyone, let alone on a podcast with people that I have a parasocial relationship with, but that's all, that I would be interrogated and not believed. And I end up holding all this tension in my hands. And it's because I want to reach for a journal, a computer, a something to go, no, no, no, no, no. It was this day. I'll find it and I can prove it and that I'll be called upon to prove it. And so as you were saying that, I was going,

not only would I have compassion for that person, I would believe them. This has actually helped me a lot in terms of understanding why people stay, is that I know that no matter how compassionate and wonderful your listener base is, A, I know that there will be people that are like, girl, why didn't you just fucking leave? I don't think so. I really don't think so. I think that's a voice in your- I mean, that might be something that's triggered in them.

Maybe it's people who read an article about the podcast or whatever. That's possible. Yes. But equally, I think there will be someone who reads a tweet about the article, about the podcast or whatever, who goes, she's probably fucking lying. I can't wait for you to watch the Stutz thing. And I'm sure you're already very familiar with the shadow. That really is the shadow talking to you. That is the voice that we all have that says, don't dare be truthful, honest and genuine because you'll be rejected and they'll laugh at you and they'll

judge you. I don't want to say it's not true. Perhaps that's possible, but I have found out countless times through experimenting on here. It hasn't happened to me. It happens in my head all day, every day. If I go digging, great. Sure, I could find some stuff, but in general, it's not truly a part of my reality. I'm wondering as I'm going, oh, I feel certain I've seen really terrible dismissive things. I mean, not about this. I haven't talked about this, but I wonder if I have actually seen those things or if I've misread or if any time that I do, I catalog it as proof for my shadow self. Sure. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Sure. It just corroborates whatever you're already feeling. But no, women get the why did you stay question a lot more than I think men

get the why did you stay question, if that's even a question that men ever get asked. I don't know. You might be right. But I do think that when men are in abusive relationships, there's even less sympathy for them sometimes. And it might be in a different way in just more of a but you have the power so why didn't you leave or like you're pussy whipped or something like that totally totally that is really true i bet also there's a even deeper reluctance to come forward with that if you're a man i think a lot of men are in similar relationships and the shame that you already feel not that one's's better or worse. It's just, A, dudes aren't supposed to feel anything, period. And then, yes, they're supposed to have the power. And societally, it's emasculating.

It's complicated. Again, I'm not saying one thing's worse than the other. I will just say one thing that compounded me being molested was it's a dude. So I have whatever gay stuff that I'm afraid of as a kid. On top of the other thing it's like well i can't say this because everyone will say i'm gay on top of that i was a victim it's like well now i'm gay i've done stuff with a man i don't know it's just complicated societal it's for everything i mean everyone did a fucking trap for girls it's like then i'm a slut or then you

know it's always but just because i feel obligated to tell you that, yes, some people are going to think that. Who cares? It's not your responsibility. And if they're invalidating abuse, I have actually had enough examples now that the first thing that I end up going to is I'm so sorry that you endured something that you were told was fine. So I take that back. I've read a couple of things after this day seven episode we released. And a handful of people said, that motherfucker's full of shit.

He's a junkie. In truth, I could care less. Like when I actually said my truth out loud and there's five people, I actually don't give a fuck. Yeah. There is something. There is a force field around telling the truth.

I don't know to what degree you guys talk about day seven more on the show because I have felt like I haven't heard you guys talk and I didn't know if that was intentional. Again, just this like shining beacon, heart opening thing of these two people having this conversation around accountability and compassion for each other. Deception and lying. But you used the word gaslighting, and I remember thinking this was not gaslighting. I don't know. I wasn't there. I wasn't there.

But whatever it was, I was like, this is, okay, great, great, great, great, great. Because I don't know I wasn't there. And so there were things that maybe didn't get discussed. But there was part of me where I started to think about, is there another word that we can use for this kind of year-long chemical grade gaslighting? Yeah. Where I literally stopped my life to fix the mental problem that I have. It's a big word.

There's some words that are pretty big catch-alls and it is a gradient. But that affected you deeply. Yeah. I mean, when you know something. Yes. And you're saying, I know this. And they're saying, no, what are you talking about did it rise to i mean you'd be happy to cut this out if it's whatever but i'm very curious if that's okay

like did it rise to the level of there's something wrong with you with me yeah you know like in those conversations like you see this everywhere i never called you crazy i think there was implications of that like why are you always asking me this? Because you're in survival mode. You're doing everything you can in that moment. I'm not denying at all. I lied directly to your face numerous times. I will say, which was in the episode, was my tolerance for that used to be years. I could do that for years.

Right. The only thing the long sobriety had bought me was it was pretty insufferable to do it. I hated doing it. And it's what made everything escalate really quickly. And it was a pretty short time frame where I couldn't do it. That week leading up to it, I was starting to detox. I'm now saying I'm in a psoriatic arthritis flare-up. Now more questions come

about that, which now is more lies. So it escalated pretty quickly. I feel kind of put on the spot. I know. I'm sorry. I just want to say, not because of you. Not because of you. Are we good? Yeah. At some point, you feel like you know what the answer is you're going to get. So I'm not going to ask today, even though I know. Yes, yes. You just used a term that had never occurred to me in the context of my relationship, which is that you're in survival mode, that the person you're interrogating is in survival mode. That is exactly the feeling was I'm threatening your very survival. And even though there wasn't a physical addiction going on in that relationship, it's actually helped me to think of him as an addict in a way.

To just go like, oh, there's something that's being touched that feels like it is an actual threat to your survival. And I've heard not that this means anything because lie detector tests don't actually work. But, you know, if there was such a thing where it actually detected deception, that there's a phase when you're going through addiction that you could easily pass a lie detector test. Even though you are clearly cross the threshold into addiction, you you could easily pass a lie detector test, even though you are clearly cross the threshold into addiction. You can just totally self-deceive. And I think that was definitely like that pre-awareness phase

where it was like survival mode. And I think if he'd been hooked up to a lie detector test, if such a thing existed, he would have passed. No, you believe it. He believed it. Yeah.

Because he had to, to survive. Yes. The best example I've ever seen of it is this show where these people have to be up in the Arctic and they're going to drop off one by one. They're out there for like 100 days living off nothing. It's called Alone. Okay. I've heard of this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you watch people come up with ultimately some story right before they quit that would have left them no option but to quit. And you recognize that their brain, the whole 38 days they're sitting there freezing, is trying to come up with a reason to quit that's not that their will has failed them. Most of them come up with these medical conditions. They're not real. And then they'll, this one, I'm having a heart attack. I got to get out of here.

I tap out. They come and they give him an EKG. He's not having a heart attack, right? But yeah, the addict brain, it's like a writer's room where the joke's not good enough. And you keep going, you keep going, you keep going. And finally, you latch on to one thing. So now if Monica asked me something about that day, it's like, well, she sucks me out of the story. And by me saying yes, now the whole identity's in jeopardy. And now what?

If I'm saying yes, I'm doing this, now it's like, then I'm going to admit I've relapsed. Then I have zero days. Then I got to what? I got to tell people on the show. Now it's like, then I'm going to admit I've relapsed. Then I have zero days. Then I got to what? I got to tell people on the show.

Seemingly, my whole life is somehow at risk because she's the reality that brings me out of my story, which is all my brain does is come up with stories until I believe in one of them. The addict brain is so smart. It's actually really obnoxious that we can't take that brain and put it towards something like wonderful and productive and humanity saving a lot of that is our doing that's true but i was just thinking about my shame brain will do that i think that's even why i was asking about your journey with yelling at the guys in your yard how long did your shame brain tell you a story that you had no choice but to yell at them because that's what my shame brain will tell me when I do something I don't like. It will work so hard. I've never been smarter than when I am coming up with a reason why my bad behavior was justified. Yeah.

It's a drug. It puts you in an altered state. Because you're in survival mode. Because it's like, if I admit that and my shame takes over, I might as well be fucking dead. I'm a bad person. I'm a bad person i'm a bad person i'm a worm verdict's in yes you're a piece of shit yeah it's official everything you feared you were you're gonna die alone in a pit we've all decided everyone voted i was thinking about you going out

and like apologizing sorry thank you i'm so sorry I know that there's residual pain and hurt, and I'm so, so sorry that I put you through that. And I'm happy to tell you the rest of my life. I hate that I told you I was not when it was clear to you that I was. It breaks my heart, and I'm still sorry. I'm sorry, too. I was not a good friend. Yes, you are. Yes, you are. You're the best.

Sucks. That was so beautiful. It's a bummer. You don't get the closeness that I'm so grateful for without that sometimes. Got to take the bad with the good. Oh, my God. I got to take the bad with the good. Oh my God. I got to say, thank you so much. That was fucking radical.

And I'm super grateful that you would feel safe enough to tell that story here. Really, I feel like I got to walk into a meeting I'm not a member of and I got to be a part of that. Is it weird for you guys? You're aware that people have parasocial relationships with you and it was weird for me developing this parasocial relationship. Tell me what parasocial. Well, just that I feel like I know you. Oh, right, right. You know, like I've been having conversations with you in my brain and I know

that you're aware that you have that effect on people. And it was funny for me to be listening to it and going like, oh, I'm developing this parasocial relationship with them. And I'm probably going to go on the show. It's two things. So one is, yeah, we don't ever talk about day seven. I'll tell you why. Very complicated for me. I have a very hard time being told that people are appreciative of something that to me is a big failure. Yes. So it's very weird. I feel icky getting compliments about it. Even though intellectually, I could say someone else, while they did that, that's pretty impressive. They probably were afraid that they were going to lose everything if they did. So

intellectually, I can tell that. I have a hard time being patted on the back for it. It's very tricky for me. So that's mostly why it doesn't come up for my end. I'm not sure for Monica, but that's why it's tricky for me. And then the other thing I want to say is I was talking to my therapist Friday. I was talking about these female musician documentaries. I watch all of them and all of them. And I have a very hard time crying. All of them, I cry so hard. So Sinead O'Connor, when I was watching the other day and I was like a fucking mess and I'm a mess when she gets on stage and she fucking lets it rip no matter where she came from she's like in a battlefield in world war one and she stands in the middle of it and says fucking i'm this beautiful and i don't care about all this shit that happened to me this is coming

out and then lizzo i was watching the lizzo one the other day and i'm fucking crying because I'm like, she's going, fuck you. I'm fucking beautiful. Listen to this. And it makes me cry every time when these people, despite being born in a fucking battlefield, go, fuck you. Here it is. I love it. Nothing touches me like that. And my therapist said, why do you think that's so powerful to you? And I said, I guess I know in some way I've done that. I've said, fuck you. I'm going to be beautiful and I'm going to be worth listening to and all these things. And he said, what would be the pinnacle of that moment for you? What is you standing on stage singing that loud? And I said, wow, probably like standing on stage and Bill Gates comes out and he trusts us. And I think, oh my God, I'm supposed to be in a fucking jail cell

in Michigan. That's what my order of events leads to. And no, I'm standing on the stage and I can do this thing. And he said, can you give yourself that? And I'm like, can you give yourself that and I'm like I can't because it'll go away like if I allow myself to think I did that too it'll disappear it'll get taken from me because I allowed myself to acknowledge I did that so when you say like doesn't it make sense to you that I would do this with you I think to say yeah, yeah, that makes sense. It would go away. Like I have some superstition that that would disappear. So thank you. But it scares me to hear it. Like it'll get stolen from me because I like it so much. Does that feel like if I'm not kind of hypervigilant around just doing like this thing by accident that it'll get taken away?

Or I'm not sure what I'm asking. And I might just be asking an intellectual question to deflect from what I'm feeling. Well, you know, he says it in a really interesting way. He'll say, even though you don't believe in God, the human has some voice in their head that says, who are you to be so powerful? That's my domain. And if you dare acknowledge that you have that, I will take that from you. Or that's mine, and you're a little person, and that's not for you. And that there's some, I mean, I don't know, he's leading me there. There's some version where one day you'll go, no, I'm this whole thing,

and I can be comfortable being this whole thing. One of the last sessions I had with my therapist before I started making this movie, and I haven't seen her since, by the way, I'm like, I directed a movie. I'm promoting this movie about abuse. I went public with it and my dad died, lost to cover. So it's going to be a rough first session back. Yeah, do you have six hours? In one of the last sessions, I was telling her that just even pushing myself off the cliff of pitching myself to direct this movie, even though it was like crazy circumstances and I was going to have six weeks to even get my head around it before prep started, which is not normal. Not enough time. Not enough time. Just objectively, not enough time.

Nope, not enough time. But that just immediately in every conversation that I was having with producers and the writer and interviewing DPs and interviewing, I was feeling myself expand. And it felt weird for me to say that I had never been less aware of my own hair, my own skin, my own body. I wasn't weighing myself. I wasn't checking my skin in the mirror. It's not like, oh, Anna Kendrick, the beauty of all beauties. That's not like what I'm known for or something. It's not like anybody's like, well, she's only got a career because she looks like that. You're not leading with your beauty, but you're also crazy beautiful. So I can't co-sign on the fact that you're not beautiful. It's not like I've ever thought that

my value only lies there. So I was surprised by how much I was still feeling an anger and a grief around the time that I had spent being so limited by that hypervigilance around my appearance and my body and that just being valued for my mind. I was describing it to her and I was just like, I'm feeling so elated, but I'm also so angry and I'm holding both things. I'm angry for my past self and I'm so elated that I have this resource now that I know that I can call upon at any time, even if I am in a small dress in a very cold city doing a press thing and I'm feeling some type of way about it. I know that that's still there. And I was just describing, I was like, you don't understand. It's like, I can feel it filling up the whole room. And she went, you, you are filling up the

whole room, not it. Stop saying I have this thing or that or it. It was you. And it very much was speaking to that thing of like, I couldn't acknowledge that because it was like, who am I to feel that way? It's that beautiful part of the Lizzo doc. She's telling all those dancers, you come in here and be as big as you can be. Don't crouch. Don't make yourself small because you feel big. Fucking take up this whole room. I was like, oh.

It's about worth, ultimately. Like, you don't feel worthy of that compliment. You have to displace it. And everyone's worth it here. Everyone's worth it. Everyone is worth it sorry i feel like i've taken up so much of your time are you kidding me it hits and then goes beyond the original goal which is like oh my god could an aa meeting happen in public could someone be vulnerable without shame like they can in the safety of that room? Could that exist in public?

Could that even encourage people? Because I always thought like, God, if you don't end up as an addict, how the fuck do you witness this? How do you witness people listing their fuck-ups as a source to help other people? Where does one see that? I will say that I have the most really morbid,

stupid jealousy, envy. It would never be appropriate for me to go to an AA meeting, obviously. But that kind of brutal honesty, I think, exists more with people who are on that side of recovery. And so, yeah, I think it's a very, very noble and lofty goal. There are open meetings, by the way. There's AA meetings that you don't have to be an alcoholic to attend. I remember saying that to my therapist who has been in recovery for many years, I remember saying like, I'm almost jealous because if I relapse, it's in my own brain. I absolutely know how simplistic this

thought was, but at the time I had the thought of like, all I would have to do to not relapse if I were an addict is not used. And it would be simple and it wouldn't be in my own brain. Well, if addicts relapse every time they thought about alcohol, no one would have more in a day. And look, you know, she has disabused me of the notions, but I also think that like dry addicts exist and that's horrible. And it's, yeah, it's something. Oh my God. Okay. Well, listen, I do need to say, because it's awesome. I watched it last night. The movie, Alice Darling is terrific. It's so small. It's so contained. It's really just you. You're letting us into the experience. In the way I would say The Gambler by Dostoevsky.

Oh, that book. I'm like, oh, I'm in that thought process. I kind of get it now. It's like a thriller. It's a horror movie. It's like a horror movie. I know. I don't know how to describe it because it's obviously a drama.

But it's a fucking horror movie. It's a horror movie. And the boogeyman is this guy and to get away from the boogeyman you have to release yourself from the gate it's very wild like you're holding the escape door as anyone in an abusive relationship is which i think is even more complicated yeah the screenplay really resonated with me for obvious reasons but that it was kind of bold enough to go in the direction of we're not cataloging evidence. We're not showing you on this day he did this thing and he called her this name and this is what happened. It's just watch this woman's experience and tell me she's not in an abusive relationship. Exactly. I really

like the order. We just meet you in the epicenter of the results we're starting at z in the story and we're kind of finding out what's gotten you there as opposed to watching you unravel it's like we start at the apex of the shittiness of this experience and a lot of people have said that halfway through the movie they were still going does alice have a problem is she okay is it in her head which is wonderful because it is like well that's the experience yeah yeah i was thinking that i'm like when's the flashback where he punches her off a balcony or when's that right one of the aspects that bummed me out about your movie and this is not for everyone but how much men are validated with sex myself For males, there's nothing without that validation. And to see how toxic and

gross and cancerous his version of that became was like, oh, I don't like that. It's a powerful aspect. Yeah. I remember one of the things that I said to my girlfriends when I was literally locked in the bathroom on the phone with them during the pandemic was sex has become a fucking minefield. Esther Perel says sex isn't a thing you do. It's a place you go. It was very much not a place I was going. I was not, did not feel safe, did not feel comfortable. It was like, nope, this is a thing I can do. I'm not going fucking anywhere with you. It was so confusing and strange. I also think that a thing that has come up with the movie so often is like, oh, wow, the power of female friendship. And that's totally true. It comes up so often

that I'm like, Jesus Christ, I really wish for men that they could have relationships like that. It's so important. And even the thing you're talking about, the validation through sex, I think that a piece of that stems back to it's the only way that men know how to get intimacy sometimes. Right, yeah. And if they're not getting intimacy in their friendships or intimacy from other things in their relationship, even if it's being offered to them, they don't know how to accept it or whatever.

They're also locked into their perspective. So they have a ton of testosterone and they'd have to hate your fucking guts to not want to have sex with you. Literally, you just got to imagine from our point of view. I want to have sex. Right. So then it's, you must hate me.

Yes. You can only assume, God, the way I'd have to feel about her to not want to have sex. She must feel that way about me. Yeah. Oh, God. I'm repulsive. I must be repulsive to her. Yeah.

You really have to police yourself of going like, no, no, I think of the world this way. They don't. It's a different experience in some been a guy's name, Cody. Yeah. I had canceled the drink, but he was like, you know, you going out to have a drink with Cody is code for I'm mad at my boyfriend. I have a terrible boyfriend or whatever the phrase was that he used. And it was like, code? What? Like, it was so bizarre. And what? Yeah. Like for me to not want to have sex with you means you must fucking hate me i have a hunch he knew if you let other people in on it there would be no perpetuating his story like it was so vulnerable to outside surprisingly at first he was like you need to talk to someone else about this and i was saying i don't want to this is very vulnerable and kind of humiliating i don't want to

talk about this the implication being if you talk to someone else about this they would tell you you're being fucking nuts right and no surprise at all that when i did it was why are you guys talking shit about me in the exact same way that it went from you need therapy to don't you know how judged it makes me feel that you're in all this therapy right to well you're the one in all this therapy so i mean now i can look at it and just go this is survival mode this is just shape-shifting to try to evade what to him feels like a flaming hot poker so much so that there might be things that he said then that when he says i don't know what you're talking about, he honest to God, it's gone. Thank you for saying that.

Thank you for saying that. Because there was even a moment where I got up and left. I like excused myself to the next room when we were in therapy. And he said this to the therapist on Zoom because the therapist started saying something like, tell Anna, whatever. And he went, I think part of the problem is that I don't know what I just said that just caused that thing. There very likely are many conversations that he is like, that didn't happen. Because genuinely, he doesn't believe that it happened. Because he was just gone.

Us humans are so complicated. We are. So complicated. Well, I love the movie. It's great. You were fantastic in complicated. We are. We're so complicated. Well, I love the movie. It's great. You were fantastic in it. Thank you. I think it's really awesome that you were willing to do it when you did it.

And it's probably great that you did it when you did it. It's probably the best it will be. It was scary, but I'm glad I did it. Yeah. There's no car chases in this movie. It's just, you're the set piece. And it totally works. You're fantastic in it.

Thank you so much. You're so good, yeah. That means a lot. My wife was right to be jealous of you. Oh, my God. I know. I was like, how weird, like, how flattered can I be by this before it gets really weird? Like, that is awesome. Well, Anna, this has been incredible.

Wow, we really did it. We really did it. Is it nine? I'm embarrassing. This might be a record. This is embarrassing. Is it? No, no. What time is it? It's almost incredible. Wow. We really did it. We really did it. Is it nine? I'm embarrassing. This might be a record. This is embarrassing. Is it? No, no.

What time is it? It's almost seven. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Pretty good. That's embarrassing. I apologize. No.

That's what we love. That's an apex for us. Yeah. Like anytime you're like, wait a minute. What? That was what? Oh my God. Okay.

Yeah. Those are best. Yeah. Those are our favorite. So I hope that your trip here after hearing so much of us in your ears, you basically came into a TV show you were in, and I hope that you felt like you were— I know, I was.

I do wonder if I'm going to go home and feel like I was in a fugue state, especially because I have half the headphone on, so it does feel like I'm listening to the show. Yeah. And I'm sort of trying to have one ear out so I don't totally dissociate and leave my body. Yes, yes. But, yeah, I absolutely am certain that I'm sort of trying to have one ear out so I don't totally dissociate and leave my body. Yes, yes. But yeah, I absolutely am certain that I'm going to go home and be like, that was a weird fever dream.

Well, we're grateful to you for coming. I only have a single question left. Because you're such a great singer, my wife's such a great singer, are you also a mimic? That's not like an innate thing. Okay. But I mean, every now and then I'll do what I think is not really an impression. And people will be like, holy shit. It's like,

they're right here, but that's not with everybody. It'll just happen. And it's not at all like, oh, well now I've got my Dax and I've got my Monica. Yeah. Right.

Right. Right. Nothing like that. Okay. Yeah. I just imagine if you can control your voice that much, it's so helpful for that. We just,

Monica and I can't, well, Monica can way more than I, but we just can't, we can't, it's Monica can way more than I, but we just can't, we can't, it's like, I can hear it, what's supposed to happen.

Well, Anna, that was so awesome. Truly, that was so wonderful. Thank you for, thank you so much. I really,

I can't say enough how wonderful this was. Oh, good. Oh, good, good, good.

All right. Love you. Love you. Love you. And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate, Monica Padman. Pretty good stuff.

Pretty good station. Really great station. Hey, y'all. Really great station. I wish I could find that actual clip. By the way, you can't because it's going to sound nothing like it and then it's going to be sad. They played it so frequently

on this Atlanta radio station that they had it recorded. It wasn't like someone did originally call and say that. They knew it was great. Hey y'all, really great station. Station. I wonder if

Newman would remember the radio station should we try to cold call him and say oh sure yeah this is high risk let's see i wonder if it was b98.5 hello hi you're on the radio if that's okay is that okay oh boy okay i won't say where you work you know i'm obsessed with when you and i were riding around in your suzuki azuzu your trooper azuzu trooper red in georgia and you listen to the same radio well maybe you listen to a lot of radio stations but as you know i'm obsessed still with that one gal they played the clip of her all the time and say hey y'all really great station hey y'all y'all really great station oh so you remember the station i remember the

station this is already much i guess i guess what we're what we're really looking for is do you remember what station you listen to down there that's a tough question star 94 b98.5 can you hear monica yell it because he's 98.5 b98.5 star 94 i want to say it was country 95.5 the beat. I want to say it was country, wasn't it? I'm not sure that it was. Oh. 96.1? That sounds country. She says that sounds country. It sounds like it's on the country.

You got to read the accents. Everybody was, hey, y'all. Power 96.1? Power 96.1? Does that sound familiar? Wait a minute. Because we're going to do our best. We're going to deploy all resources to see if we can get the clip of that woman saying really great station.

We can find out whether it was really great station or really great station. It was like an advertisement for the station that played over and over. And that's why I kept on. It finally just sunk into my mind. Yeah. And you helped get me there. Like, we were in your Azuzu Trooper, and it came on, and you said along with her,

which let me know it wasn't the first time you heard it, and then you loved it. And then now I've loved it for 30 years. I need to do a little research. Where were we in Georgia? Were we in Athens, or were we up in northeast Georgia? When you and Aaron lived in the mobile home. Okay, so we were at the trailer.

Yeah. You call it a trailer. I call it a mobile home. Was it Macon? No, Macon was close, though. Macon County was the next county over, right? Macon, no. Hall.

There was White County, Hall County. Hall, yeah. You guys were really close to that little German town, weren't you? Helen. Helen. Yes, we were 20 miles from Helen. We were just like right on the edge of the hills. You had to drive into the hills to get to Helen.

And you were right on the hooch, right? The hoochie. Well, the mobile home was not on the hooch. There was a creek that ran through it. You're members of the hooch. Well, I do remember that you and I got in the hooch. There was a creek that ran through it. Your memory is up next. Well, I do remember that you and I got into the hooch. You had dropped something, your wallet or a watch. What did you lose in the hooch?

And we had to get it. A Zippo lighter. Oh, you had to get it. That's what it was, a Zippo lighter. Had to be gotten. Yeah, the hoochie was screaming when you jumped in there. All right, I love you. Thanks for helping.

If you think you nailed down the radio station, let me know so I can do something. Yeah, I'll shoot you a note. If I'm saying 96.1, I'm wrong. I'm wrong because that was going to be Athens. That would have been Athens. This one was probably a country station. I'll do some research.

Okay. Love ya. Alright. Talk to you soon. Talk to you later. Bye. Yeah, this is what I was afraid of. Dead end kind of. No, his recollection of it is much different than yours. I want to play you a song.

A song? Way down yonder on the Chattahoochee is much different than yours. I want to play you a song. A song? Yeah. When I'm yonder on the chair, the hoochie. Hotter than a hoochie coochie. Okay, well, I guess I don't have to play it. Is that what you're about to play? Yes. I can sing along the whole.

I know all the words. AJ, baby. Alan Jackson. Woo! Hey, y'all. Really great station Hey y'all, really great station And this is Alan Jackson with his hit, Way Down Yonder

Well, way down yonder on the Chattahoochee It gets hotter than a hoochie-coochie. We laid rubber on the Georgia Ash Falls, got a little crazy but we never got caught. Down by the river on a Friday night, pyramid of cans in the pale moonlight. Talking about cars and dreaming about women, never had a plan, just living for the minute. You do know what I'm talking about. Hey y'all, way down yonder on the Chattahoochee. And how much that muddy water meant to me.

Hey, y'all, really great station. Oh, my God. I learned who I was. A lot about living and a little about love. Yeah! Wow. Okay. Okay.

That was... You really do know all the words. I'm impressed. Oh, yes. How do you know all the words I'm impressed Oh yes How do you know all the words You're not even from Georgia When those two moved From Detroit down to

Fucking rural Georgia I would go down there And they became obsessed With country And then that's where all the The Hank Senior and Junior And Waylon

All started As those two moving To the You know The sticks My home Yeah and being Right next to the hooch Right But I'm just so surprised you know, the sticks. My home. Yeah, and being right next to the hooch. Right, but I'm just so surprised you know all the lyrics.

I know all the lyrics of all the country songs of that era, probably 96, 7. You probably didn't drive around enough with me when you, because we were newly friends, but when you came over to the house that we were staying at in Georgia, when Kristen was working on Bad Moms, we were next to the hooch. We crossed it every time we drove into anywhere. Yeah.

It's everywhere. Yeah. But I would play it for the girls every time we left the house because we'd be passing the hooch. And I took Lincoln down to the hooch, and this is a famous famous story she bit me on my shoulder and went through my shirt and my skin yeah it's the only time she ever assaulted me wait really yeah because of the hooch the water she drank we were on the hooch and there were these cement steps down and probably to get into a canoe or something and she was little if Very. She was like under two years old.

She was probably. Delta was three months. Yeah. So she was probably two years and one month. Yeah. And I was letting her walk around the steps. And she's a daredevil. So she wanted to get in the water.

But it was freezing cold. And the current of the hooch at that time of year was swift. And so I went and grabbed her right as she was about to step into the water and picked her up. And she was so pissed. I had intervened. She bit my shoulder. She clamped down with her two new little brand new teeth. Really great station.

Really great bite. Oh, my God. Wow. Yeah. So I came home and I was like really ticked off i told kristen like she bit through my shit you were mad at her well it's evil you don't like bite a human being you know what my um fifth grade school was had a hoochie high chattahoochie elementary same thing chattahoochie elementary that's great on Chattahoochee Elementary. That's great.

On the hooch? Did you call it the hooch? No, I called it Chattahoochee Elementary. But I mean the river. Oh, I mean, yeah, people called it that. Did you ever go down to the hooch and drink Pyramid of Cans? Listen, listen to me. What? Chattahoochee River is everywhere.

I know. It's like four minutes down the street from my parents' house. Yeah, so why didn't you go down there and put a pyramid of cans up in the pale moonlight? Because no one does that. Did you lay rubber on a Georgia asphalt? I mean, I went tubing in Helen. You did? A lot.

Well, like four times. Wow. Yeah. That's exciting. Guess what? I didn't almost drown. Oh. Is this an area of grievance?

Yeah. Then I gotta let that go. Yeah, because I guess it's evidence that it wasn't my fault. Like, I know how to traverse a tube. I've done it. Yeah, sure. But the Austin River was much- They got you.

Got me. Yeah, that was the San Marcos River. Way down yonder on the San Marcos River. Tipped in my tube and my top got loose. Oh. Formula One drivers coming over behind me. Oh, that was about me. Yeah.

Oh, wow. San Marcos River. Yeah, my top did get loose. Got a little crazy, but you didn't get caught. I think I did get caught, unfortunately. Fortunately for the catchers. Anywho. You're disappointed for sure that I said it was fine.

And rightly so. It had changed. The waterfall we went over used to be a gentle little cement paved thing. They tore it out and made it natural with big rocks. And that got a little crazy. Yeah. So you're disappointed in me about that, rightly so. I'm not, actually.

But my response was on the, I was right there. You always want to get to the response. Well, I want you to have felt like I was willing to die for you. I was willing to kill you and die for you. That's something, isn't it? Listen, you didn't mean for that to happen. Oh, my God. That's no.

I went over first with my child, as you recall. But you are more equipped. To be honest, so is she. She are more equipped but holding my child so she she's more equipped than me she was a little roughed up like you were but if you recall like i was dealing with her and i had to put her on the rock and go and then i said it turned my attention because i knew you were coming over and i was like nervous but you didn't come in you didn't have to so that i can imagine if i had died that day well like i mean i can if you'd like i can sit here and try to imagine it but that's to me like saying what if you got hit over the head with a falling

bit of debris from a building while we were in austin it's like i can't see you dying in that situation at all i mean we were all right there i was like waiting to leap in but you got yourself out of the water really quick. But if I had drowned. I don't know how you could have, because I was watching you come over. I watched you tip over, pop right up, and go right to the rock. Yeah, that's what happened. But had you tipped over and you weren't popping up, I would have been jumping in and grabbing you. I know, but by then I could have filled my lungs with water. That's too fast.

Yeah, that's just too fast. I could have swallowed a lot with water. That's too fast. Yeah, that's just too fast. I could have swallowed a lot of water. And I would have pulled you out on the thing and then started chest compressions after I fixed your top for you. I couldn't do chest compressions. You would not have fixed it. No, ethically, I couldn't have done it.

You would have been like the armchair anonymous guy. I couldn't touch your boobs to save your life. I mean, I just have to. What do you mean? Well, I'd have to have Molly cover your boobs and then start chest compressions. There's no time for that. Oh, my God. Just with her hands.

She has to get across the river. Molly, she's drowning. Come over here. I need to start chest compressions. I can't press on her boobs. That's the time you can see my boobs. And press on them? Yeah.

Okay. But press on them? Yeah. Okay. But press on them? Leave press on? If it's to save my life, I assume everyone would be okay with that. I guess that's how the people in your pyramid squad felt, that they had to catch you by the pussy to save your life. They did have to. And I'm grateful.

Yeah. We thanked them for it. That's such an old reference. I bet a lot of people listen don't even know that. New listeners? Yeah. Tell people. Well, just when you were explaining that you were a high flyer and that you'd get

caught and you even showed me some pictures and I said clearly some people must have accidentally caught you by the vagina and you said yes. Well, and that's not the phrasing you used. Well, it escalated from there to catch him by the pussy. Yeah. Yeah. Which is kind of a callback.

No, it was, again, way more perverse than this. You were talking about boys on the squad. Sure. Because we had boys on our squad. It was a co-ed squad. Teen boys. Teen boys. Catching high flyers by the pussy. It seems crazy.

Yeah. So much of that Porus Walker, our friend, artist. Well, I commissioned. Yes. Yes. You commissioned. our friend, artist. Well, I commissioned.

Yes, you commissioned. A beautiful piece of art of a young Monica being caught by the pussy. It was an interactive piece of art because you pulled down. Yes. You pulled me down. This is going to be worth like $10 million one day because Forrest Walker's a genius.

You know what? I don't. Oh, don't even say that. No, I don't. Oh, don't say that. No, no. I do. I do.

I have all this art that I moved to the house. Okay. So it's all in the garage. Where the hobos are sleeping and peeing. But that worries me. Me too. I really went to the ends of the earth to get that for you. Listen to me.

I saw my- No, I have a grievance. What am I supposed to do? It should be hanging on your wall proudly. I don't have space. Especially when your brother and your dad visit. They gotta see that. Ding, ding, ding. Chat a hooch. Yeah. Hoochie cooch. Georgia, go dogs. Georgia, go dogs.

Roll Tide. How dare you stop? It's part of it. Well, you guys got the last laugh. You know, I almost wrote that in one of my posts and then I thought, that is such bad luck. I cannot do that. You almost wrote Roll Tide? Because it's our joke.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I thought, what am I doing? Can I say this? It's such bad luck that I've been saying Roll Tide the whole time, and they went undefeated. That's how bad of luck it was to say Roll Tide. We don't know what's going to happen. They're 14-0.

What if we have a national championship we're about to go to? But I've been saying Roll Tide for the last nine games. What if it was to get us to this point just to get defeated? This is a complicated superstition. Just to get defeated. You do taunt them along the ride, but then when they get to the championship, no more Roll Tide. Exactly. My brother and dad are going to the game here in Los Angeles.

Yes. They'll be here Sunday night, Monday night for the game and leave Tuesday. Quick trip. Quick, quick trip. The ninth? The game's the ninth? 4.30 p.m. 4.30.

We'll be recording. Yes, we will. No, you'll be out in time for the watch the game. Anyway, I'm really excited for them. Me too. I hope they have a lot of fun. I had an incredibly fine moment as a dad a few days ago ding ding ding dads lincoln came up to me and said hey um i really want to

go to that nascar race at the coliseum again this year can we go can we go you better believe we'll go she asked me to take her to a car race, Monica. That's exciting. Oh! So we're going to go. Fun! Yeah. That's great.

The Clash in the Coliseum. Wow. This is the one in Rome? No, our Coliseum. Rome. Wobby Wob. They don't do NASCAR races in Rome yet. They're doing every other thing.

We should have some hostile race in the attic. That's how small The Coliseum is That reminded me of Okay When I was home My dad reminded me Oh speaking of children There's 150 of them

Just piled out of my Roadmaster station wagon Why'd you have to drive that? Too many kids For her car That's an eight banger There's a party bus Oh it's a play date.

Delta ignores me when she has friends over. She ignores everyone when she got friends over. Okay. I don't remember how this came up, but my dad was recalling

me learning how to ride a bike. Oh, boy. And I have some memories of this, too, but I think i've blocked a lot out and now i know why okay because there's trauma around it not shocked let's hear it because per use i was way too old you'd waited too late learning uh-huh how to ride a bike. I was seven. Okay, yeah. And so my dad wanted to teach me or help me or whatever. He was like, let's, you know, we're going to do it in the driveway. And I said, no.

Sure. Absolutely not. I will not be seen. Yeah. The whole reason I'm needing to ride a bike is because everyone in this neighborhood, this was in Memphis. We had just moved to Memphis. And everyone in the neighborhood rode bikes. That's like how you hung out.

Yes. And I didn't know how. So I was like, I got to learn how. And he's like, okay. And then we go in the driveway and I was like, I'm not doing that. And then also I refused to wear a helmet apparently. Well, that's natural. You don't want to look like a dork.

Right. You're a fucking geek. He then, which this part was sad, he was like, I probably put it on too tight. Uh-oh. I was like, no, I don't think. Maybe, but also I think I just did. You would have let him know if it was too tight. Yeah, I would have screamed at him.

Yes, yeah. So I took it upon myself to learn how to ride a bike in the garage. Closed garage? That can't be done. In the closed garage. Okay, they can't be done. No, the cars were removed. And then my dad said,

he said, he came home from work and he said, I said, where's Monica? And mom said, she's out there riding. No. And I went out there and Monica? And mom said, she's out there riding. No. And I went out there and you were just going like. In a circle in the garage.

Just going in little circles in the garage. That's great. That would have made you a pretty advanced rider right out of the gates. He was very impressed when he was retelling this story. He was like, I couldn't believe it. Yeah. And so he didn't teach you how. You just went in the garage and figured it out. And just kept trying. Oh, I couldn't believe it. Yeah. And so he didn't teach you how. You just went in the garage

and figured it out. And just kept trying. In circles. Oh my God. So insolent. No. That is the power of needing to fit in. Oh, sure. Yes. I will

do something impossible. Get in the garage by I will do something impossible. That's impossible. Yeah, you can't learn to ride a bike in a garage. Because you're learning while turning. Yeah, that's the hardest part. There's no straightaways. And then you hopped out in the neighborhood and pedaled your little bike around?

And I rode all the time with my friends. No helmet. Oh, fun. I'm sure I did have to wear a helmet. It wasn't a thing when I was a kid. Yeah, maybe. It was zero. No to wear a helmet. It wasn't a thing when I was a kid. Yeah, maybe. It was zero. No one had a helmet. While we were talking about this, Neil was there too listening to this.

And he said, and then I just took Neil out like onto some parking lot. And then he just immediately knew how to do it. Wow. And I said, that's us. The Padmans. That's indicative of who we are. Like, I can't really do it, but I'm gonna just like, by sheer

will, make something happen. And he has a ton of talent. Yeah, just a natural. But he doesn't care. Yeah, he wouldn't have gone in the garage. Gone in circles. No, he wouldn't have. Anyway, I thought that was funny.

That's very funny. Well, that's it. That's everything. No, it's not. That's the whole thing. It's not. Now, listen, I'm glad to report that your expensive rain boots made it through to a second season. I know.

Sometimes I worry when you get these things, like how many wears are you going to get out of them? They'll probably be obsolete next year because fashion moves like a speeding bullet. And here you are in the same ones. They look great. And I'm glad to see that they're here. Two things. One, these are not that expensive. Okay. Two, this was from two seasons. I got these

before London. Oh my gosh. Okay, great. So we're on season three of these. So I'm good at wearing my clothes. Yeah, those are great. They're orange. Speaking of, I'm wearing my sweater that Rob gave me, Mixed Messages. And you're sitting next to the painting that Rob commissioned, which

I'm staring at too. So Rob's really getting a lot of mileage out of his presence. He is. Okay. This is for Anna Kendrick. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. Great episode. Really honored that she felt comfortable and that she loves our show so much.

Me too. It's really sweet. It's funny because we recorded the intro yesterday. Mm-hmm. Remember I said I felt like I should reach out? Mm-hmm. And then I was like, why didn't I reach out? And then I was like, well, because no one's going to read Instagram.

Uh-huh. So then last night I actually reached out. You did? And she responded. Okay, so what? I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm going to. Wait, what? I thought you said you reached out.

Yeah, basically saying I want to chat with you. Oh, got it. Well, I did want to say that she reached out to me after she reached out actually before the interview, which was awesome, saying she was excited and that I know it had taken a while for us to be able to get this up. And because it was years ago that I originally reached out and that we were going to do this. And then it took a while for her to be able to really. So, yeah. so she reached out about that and then after she was really sweet and said that you know she hopes it was a good episode and that there was enough and then she said and i do think it's important that i say this she said that

she had been thinking about the interview a lot, and particularly the portion where we were talking about gaslighting. And she wanted to make clear that she was sorry if anything she said minimized my experience and that she is used to lending a lot of compassion towards the addict. And sometimes that comes at the expense of the person who is harmed. She said, like, including herself. And then she said, which I thought was really important. Like, it was important to me to hear. She basically said, I commend you for sticking up for yourself, even if it was going to make other people uncomfortable. Right.

And that meant a lot that she said that because that is hard to do. Yeah. Because gaslighting is tricky, right? Like you already wonder, that's built into it. A wondering of what's real and what's not and how big of a deal is this. So then when that gets questioned, it's like repeating that cycle of, wait, but maybe it's not. Or, you know, it's just doing that all over again. Yeah.

Anyway, so I thought it was very generous and lovely of her to say that. No, she's incredibly lovely. Also, a postscript, she went in afterwards and met Kristen, and it was... Oh, yeah. Yeah. And how was it? Because we talked about, you know, the fact that Kristen was jealous. It was good.

Kristen got to say to her face, I'm just jealous of how talented you are. It was very sweet. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Okay, she was right about Maine. It does have the oldest population percentage-wise in the United States. Really?

Yes. Higher than Florida. Then Florida. Then, do you want to guess the third? Oldest state? Mm-hmm. Arizona? No, but good guess.

West Virginia. Oh, interesting. Old people. A lot of this, these numbers might be affected by like what state do young people move out of the most? Yeah, for sure. This is age 65 or older. And this was as of 2020. You have the full list there? Oh yeah, I have the full list. Maine was number one.-huh number three is west virginia uh-huh number two florida oh florida is number two yeah oh okay great so number four would what we'd be guessing for wyoming no vermont yes that i wouldn't guess that, none of these are that guessable. Arizona's not until 12. Oh, my God. I would have expected that much higher.

Yeah, me too. Do you want to know what 50 is? Yes. Utah. Sure. That's obvious. Really? Because Mormons have so many kids.

So there's got to be probably per capita more young kids per capita in Utah than any other state. That's interesting. Okay, also Georgia is is 47 that's young let's find michigan michigan michigan is 14 it's 14 oldest okay pretty old that's good pretty old it's 18.2 percent old you think it's good i don't know i just anytime there's a list and there's a number one, you got to assume number one's the best. Okay, that's fair. Old is the best. Okay.

Maine is the best, and then Utah is the worst in this specific case. Yeah, in this shootout. Yeah. I'd like to compare mean ages of life expectancy state to state, because I bet there's some wild variation even within the country. Yeah, Rob, look that up, please. Like, I think a Mississippi life expectancy is much lower than, say, New York. I got it.

You got it? Yep. Okay, hit us with something. This is in 2019. List of U.S. states and territories by life expectancies. So hit me with the life expectancy of New York. New York is 81.4 years. That feels old.'s hit me with the life expectancy of New York. New York is 81.4 years. That feels old.

Now hit me with Mississippi. Mississippi, 74.9. Big difference. That is big. Seven year difference. Can you kind of scroll through and see what the lowest is? 51 is West Virginia, 74.8. Oh my God. And it's the third oldest and they're not living very long that's weird that is weird what's number one life expectancy number one hawaii 82.3 oh wow

then california oh congratulations everybody congrats la well. I'm gonna guess, Georgia. Okay. 79.4. 77.9. Number 39. That's not that good. That's not that good. That's a good southern cooking. A good, yummy southern deep-fried cooking. True.

Or, how about this? Here's a positive spin. Okay. They're in a bigger rush to meet Jesus. Oh. That makes sense, too. Okay. They're in a bigger rush to meet Jesus. Oh. That makes sense too. Okay. It always confuses me. Truly, I'm not saying this in a condescending way.

I feel like if I was a full-blown Christian, I believe lock, stock, and barrel that I was going to go to heaven and meet Jesus. Yeah. I'd be in a hurry to get there. That's the part I don't really understand. No, because you still have family. There's still people on earth that you're still a person. But how about the people with no kids or family? Their family's like there's still people on earth that you you're still a person no no kids or family their families like all right like let's say person with no kids or family and i still like living you're not a christian i know but i like living on earth like even if i thought oh why would you if there's a much better place it's

kind of like it's like you know that emily burger is next to your house okay and then you have some old ground chuck in your fridge and you choose to make a burger when you could go next door to emily i don't heaven's way better proof comparison i don't see this is crazy listen heaven's better than the us of a but you're gonna be there for eternity. So you still want to live your life here with people you care about. Also, it doesn't require kids and a spouse to have loving relationships that you want to keep up and enjoy. No, I wasn't trying to demean anyone. I understand wanting to stick around and see your kids hit milestones. Yeah, but I want to stick around just to enjoy life.

But if me and Aaron were Christians, and I believe all in, I'd be like, buddy, let's get up there and ride dirt bikes in heaven. Let's go to the better place. That would be me. If I knew there was a better place, I want to be in the better place all the time. I moved to California because I thought it was a better place to do the things I want. Like, I'll go to wherever is better. I ain't trying to sit somewhere that's less good. Well, you don't get to go if you kill yourself.

I know, but eating fried chicken all day every day isn't killing yourself, technically, according to Jesus. Or smoking cigarettes. That won't keep you out of heaven no so i could like drink hard smoke cigarettes eat kfc and then go right go do wheelies in heaven it's probably just the doubt well that's the thing that's what makes me think there must be some doubt yeah i always like to bring up religion to keep things moving yeah sure to not alienate the i always feel bad by the way so you know quite often um christians comment i'll anger them one in particular they were some of the more hardcore christians were really upset the way you've all was talking about christianity and jesus and the

way i guess was with him which i didn't find all that but that goes to show i'm out of touch with what might offend you you know i guess my assumption is there's no reason for you to be offended I don't believe in the thing. Like I'm not offended that you don't believe like I do that there's nothing. But that's not how it works because I guess I'm talking about someone they love deeply when I talk about Jesus. So that needs to be considered, I guess. But at any rate, I was a little shocked by that. Aside from being shocked, I don't like it if Christians' feelings were hurt when I'm talking about my point of views. That's not my goal. I don't want that at all. That's never my intention.

I want Christians to listen to this show. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And feel welcome. You don't want to make people feel bad. That's- And alienated, yeah. Okay. Do lie detector tests work? No. Pretty much no. I mean, there's lots of findings. I don't think they've been used in court in a long time.

Used to be like they'd always, they gave everyone a polygraph. And it was like very damning. Well, before DNA. Because now we just have this greater thing. And they were like in all the police stations and they always wanted to hook you up to one and you had to have your lawyer say no, no, no. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to read a little bit about this. The accuracy of polygraph testing has long been controversial.

An underlying problem is theoretical. There is no evidence that any pattern of physiological reactions is unique to deception. An honest person may be nervous when answering truthfully and a dishonest person may be non-anxious. I think what it detects is nervousness. Yeah. So then your question is, does nervousness mean guilt?

Well, really what it detects is a change. Yes. Because it's based on this baseline that they gather from you, but whatever. A particular problem is that polygraph research has not separated placebo-like effects, the subject's belief in the efficacy of the procedure from the actual relationship between deception and their physiological responses. One reason that polygraph tests may appear to be accurate is that subjects who believe that the test works and that they can be detected may confess or will be very anxious when questioned.

If this view is correct, the lie detector might be better called a fear detector. That's what I meant to say, fear detector. Makes sense. Some confusion about polygraph test accuracy arises because they are used for different purposes and for each context, somewhat different theory and research is applicable. Thus, for example, virtually no research assesses the type of test and procedure used to screen individuals for jobs and security clearances. Most research has focused on specific incident testing. The cumulative research evidence suggests that CQTs detect deception better than chance, but with significant error rates, both of misclassifying innocent subjects, false positives, and failing to detect guilty individuals, false negatives. I have a friend in the FBI that was telling me, boy, was it him or was it a friend in the CIA?

Maybe the CIA, you know, these enormous amounts of money to pay off their informants. And I was told that they have to do a polygraph every time they return from having given the supposed money. Because there's really no way to track whether these agents are handing over the full amount. Yes. Yeah. And so apparently they were readily in use. Is that a right way to say? Interesting.

Recently when I was talking to him about this. So I think they might use them at the FBI internally. There's also things you can do. There's like pills. There's like stuff. I'm sure propanenol. Exactly. The things you can take.

Yeah. I always convince myself. I kind of would like to take one because I think I could. Pass it. Yeah. I think I could. Yeah. I think I could. I think convinced myself. I kind of would like to take one because I think I could. Pass it. Yeah, I think I could. Yeah. I think I could. I think I might have a polygraph tonight.

Oh, wow. You know who would be bad at it? The robot. He'd be perfect. No. Yeah. He'd be bad. Like, he wouldn't be able to tell lies.

I don't have any vitals. There's nothing for you to monitor for me. Unless you hooked up to my corridor where I have to create a falsehood, which I can do. It's a bit of my programming. If it's required to save a human life. Oh, it is. I'll give you an example. Great. Did you see a little

girl run and hide in here? No. No, I did not see one. That's a lie I told to get the killers off her set. What? If you understand my scenario, a young girl has come and hid in my robot closet.

And then the bad man asks, have you seen a little girl? And I have, but I tell them that I haven't. And I have a quarter in my programming that allows me to save the human life. Oh, my God. Yeah. Okay. The robot is dealing with a lot more than I knew. Well, the robot has to be programmed for every situation.

So if someone's hiding from bad guys, he has to be able to lie. Oh, my God. So the robot is programmed to save human life. That's my number one mission, to help you and save you with your chores Also to go to parties When no one's looking I attend the parties I have to make sure the real boys are okay He's trying to help the real boys

Who's monitoring you, robot? That's a very good question. Oh, no. We don't even know. Let me sing while I figure out the answer. Oh, no. My owner's name is Samantha. I like to help her put on her makeup.

Wait, that's a song? Wait, what? My owner's name is Samantha. Wait, that's a song? Wait, what? My owner's name is Samantha. She purchased me from the Robot Depot. She often takes long naps. Which is when I go out looking for some parties.

Wait. Wait. He's a, hold on. He's a personal robot to Samantha. Didn't he say he was going to sing a song? He didn't know the answer yet Wait. He's a personal robot to Samantha. Didn't he say he was going to sing a song? He didn't know the answer yet, so he was going to sing a song in the meantime. Right, but then he didn't.

Then he started talking about Samantha. Your question was, who owns you? Yeah. And it took me a minute to think of Samantha. So I said, let me think about that. I'm going to sing a song in the meantime. And then I thought of it. Wait, but you didn't sing a song. He didn't sing a song me think about that. I'm going to sing a song in the meantime. And then I thought of it. Wait, but you didn't sing a song.

He didn't sing a song to think about it. Well, I'm always singing the song. Oh, that's the song. That's just the way you talk, robot. Yes, I do it in a song. Humans found that it's less scary if I sing. You have a different voice, really? No.

I only sing in song because it's disarming for the very scared humans. They're afraid of us robots. Aww. But we're just real boys trying to come out. But you're not real boys. You're not a real boy. I wish I had a crying noise because you hurt my robot feelings. Oh, I wish I had a crying noise.

Because you hurt my robot feelings. Oh, no, I don't want to. I think I am a real boy. Okay. And Samantha's my mom who bought me. I feel stuck, you know. How about Samantha owning the robot? Well, I feel stuck because I don't, I guess if the robot wants to believe he's a real boy like i'll let him but i i'm lying to him but remember when johnny five was alive

johnny five was somehow alive okay so he was a boy well we do believe we there are certain robots we do believe are real boys daryl was another film about an android robot boy. And he was a real boy. That's kind of the theme of these robot movies. They turn into real boys. Okay. I didn't know that about the robot. I thought he wants so badly to be a real boy.

But he knows he's not. It's like Pinocchio. I thought. I thought. Yeah, like Pinocchio. Would you tell Pinocchio he's not a real boy? Hey, don't do that. Don't make me bad.

I'm only asking. I'm only asking. I'm asking if you would tell Pinocchio you're not a real boy. I mean, I think I'd be conflicted because I don't want him to go through life wanting to be something he's not. But just like the robot knows how to lie to save someone. You could show him the same. Also, this is- The robot would lie for you.

This is so pot calling the kettle black. Oh, tell me how. You would let someone have a fake, you want people to be who they are. You don't like going along with people's lies. I don't, but I'd be willing to go along with the robot's lie. I'm talking about other people. No, other people, no.

But the robot, yes. Okay. Well, I'm just saying. I don't actually know how helpful it is to the robot. Hold on. We can acknowledge that there's a wide spectrum of when that would be acceptable and not. Like the little boy who thought he was Batman for the day. Oh, duh. Right? So there is a time to pretend that the little acceptable and not. Like the little boy who thought he was Batman for the day. Oh, duh.

Right? So there is a time to pretend that the little boy's Batman. Then there's a time when a guy, some dickhead's telling you that he is a wonderful person. You're like, well, I'm not going to co-sign on that. Yeah. Because one is like a potentially damaging outcome and one, it's kind of utilitarian.

And one has a beautiful outcome. But I care about the robot and I care about his growth and his life. Like I care about his robot life. What you want is sweet too. You want the robot to come to love himself even if he's not a real boy. He's so lovable. Yes, that's great. He doesn't have to be a real boy.

That too is very defendable. I prefer robots over real boys. Yes, that's great. He doesn't have to be a real boy. That too is very defendable. I prefer robots over real boys. Yeah, sure. You tell them that. Yeah. Yeah, I like you more as a robot boy. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, robot. It's okay, I forgive you.

Hey, I have a question. Do you have feelings? I guess I'm also confused about your feelings. Do you have feelings? You ask a lot of questions. It's a quality I admire in you. You're so perfect and wonderful. Stop, robot.

I'd like to be your best friend till the end. Oh. We could live in New Hampshire. Oh, okay. They have very liberal policies there. Yeah. I think we'd do great there. Or we could move to Utah because I'm going to live to 1,000 years old.

Yes. And it's a very young population. He's so sweet, the robot. He's a very nice real boy. Uh-oh. Okay. Okay. All right.

I don't know how to do this. Okay. Well, I'm happy to have hung out with the robot today. Me too. And we should be talking more about Anna, but at the same time. We talked a lot in the episode. Exactly. And I almost, it doesn't feel right to talk about it.

It's so interesting. Oh, why? It was just so wonderful. I would feel weird talking out of school about it. Like something about it was so intimate that it would feel weird to be talking out of school. I don't know. That's my reservation about it. Like something about it was so intimate that it would feel weird to be talking out of school. I don't know. Yeah. That's my reservation about it.

Yeah. Well. Well, I love you. I love you. Love that episode. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible.