Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Barbara Kingsolver (author of Demon Copperhead)

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

Barbara Kingsolver (Demon Copperhead) is a Pulitzer Prize-winning author. Barbara joins the Armchair Expert to discuss why she loved to read as a kid, how there can be truth in writing fiction, and how she went from being a biologist to a novelist. Barbara and Dax talk about the struggle in being creative, the effects of structural classism, and why being an author is the best profession to have. Barbara explains how rural people are portrayed in the media, how her writing was influenced by the opioid epidemic, and how she tries to focus on accessibility in her novels.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Experts. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Lily Padman. Hi. Hi. Hi. How are you? Good. I made a bolognese last night. You did? How did it turn out?

As good as the last batch you gave me? I think so because I started earlier, so I didn't feel so rushed. Okay. I really could chop those onions fine. Uh-huh. And the garlic? Yeah, the garlic you're supposed to slice because you don't want it to burn. It's not good for you because you would break out.

Yeah, that's okay. It might be worth it. I ate a shitload of it last time. It was so good. You let me know, I have extra. Yes, and I found a gluten-free noodle that's in the fridge section over at Lazy Acres. That's delish, actually.

Oh, great. I'm glad you finally found a gluten-free pasta. Yeah, it in fact made me want to make my own. It's been a long time. I want that. Yours is better now. You've got brownie. No, different and not better.

This is a rare occurrence. It's the first time ever that you and I independently read books that we both loved on the same level. And then we both were starving to talk to the author, which is such, we talk about it in the episode. It's incredible the privilege to be able to fall in love with the book and get to talk to the fucking author. It's like what I dreamed about as a kid. I would never trade that in. Like the way I also happened, I also read it. Yeah.

Which as we have declared is fairly rare in these circumstances. Normally I don't and I act more as the audience. Yeah. I will say, even though I'm so glad, I recognize that like me knowing more, there are parts when we're talking about the book, it's like, it's good I don't read them. Right, because we can't have everyone on the inside. Exactly, because people who haven't read it are like, I don't know what you're talking about right now.

What people don't hear on this show, which is cut out is like, I often get too esoteric with the guests because they know their subject matter really well. And I just brushed up on it. So we can depart from what the general audience might know. And you constantly go, hold on a second. I don't think anyone is following this at this point.

Yeah. But it's harder if I'm also- Inside the bubble. Yes. So maybe this episode sucks. So it's really bad. So don't listen. No, do listen. It's my favorite of the year. Okay. Oh, yes. So you this episode sucks. So it's really bad. So don't listen. No, do listen.

It's my favorite of the year. Okay. Oh, yes. So you said this in the fact check. This isn't a response to what we just said. Yeah. Barbara Kingsolver. She, of course, wrote our favorite book of the year, Demon Copperhead, which I'm so prone to get wrong.

I say Copperfield sometimes. You want to, but which makes sense. It makes sense. But Barbara, she won the Pulitzer Prize for the book this year, but she's written a ton of other beautiful books. The Poisonwood Bible, Unsheltered, The Bean Trees, Flight Behavior. And I encourage everyone to go get Demon Copperhead and hopefully this will whet your appetite to read it because it is phenomenal. She's so amazing. And she's even cooler than the book. She's so cool. She's better than the book.

Yeah. Please enjoy better than the book. Yeah. Please enjoy Barbara Kingsolver. Trip Planner by Expedia. You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and your friends find a place on a beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia. Made to travel. You're already here! I'm here! Oh my goodness!

She made it! Hi! Hi! I'm so happy to have you here! Oh, thank you! Yeah. It's great to be here. I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you. Yeah. It's great to be here. I'm very excited. You smell great.

Oh, that's our candle. That's our candle. No, no, it's all me. It's all me. It could be a mixture, good pheromones mixed with the candle. I wouldn't believe it. Good morning, nice browns.

Thank you, I'm in ya browns. Ya browns. That sounded a little bit like a euphemism. For? My breasts. Oh. Alas, it was not. That sounded a little bit like a euphemism. For? My breasts. Oh. Alas, it was not, but.

But I thought I'd clear that up. Barbara, welcome. Thank you. Okay, this is a little self-indulgent, but I'm just going to tell you. It occurred to me what is so exciting about having you here is if you would have told me, I don't know, in my teens and twenties, that I could have put down fear of flying and then gone and spoken with Erica Young, or I could have put down catcher in the rye and then talk to JD Salinger. I'm having a very big moment where I can't believe I get to read a book, fall in love with it, and then talk to you. It's like very exciting for me. Well, good. That's so much better than if you said, well, I kind of hated your book, but here's your chance to redeem yourself, Barbara. Win me over, Barbara. I know the Pulitzer's

convinced that you did a good job, but I think you need to convince me. My standards are much higher. When you were young, who would you have most wanted to have talked to after reading their book? Oh, man. Well, it depends on how young. Like when I was 12, Charles Dickens or Louisa May Alcott. That's a toss up. Then later, Doris Lessing. I actually did get to meet Doris Lessing. She was an icon for me in my late teens, early 20s. What was she saying that you were like, oh, right, that's kind of how I think. Thanks for saying it. The first books of hers that I read were the Martha Quest novels, The Children of Violence. I don't know that they're all that well known. The last of those five novels is The Golden Notebooks, which people do know about.

But the series begins in what was then Rhodesia. So she was writing about what was called then the color bar. So she was writing about racism and she was writing about sexism. In what year? You can ballpark it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A decade, yeah. In the 50s, 60s.

Okay. Those were the first novels that helped me understand what literature can really do. What it can talk about, what it can embrace, what it can change, what it can challenge, how it can make you feel uncomfortable. Or in my case, it was more like articulating these pressures on me that I didn't know how to name. Right. Living in a place that was segregated, living in a world where all the women I knew were wives, that was their job. They were not encouraged to go educate themselves or pursue anything.

It wasn't even about encouragement. It was about options. I mean, I just grew up looking around, seeing that men ran the world. Hmm. Seems like they still do. You can use present tense for that. Yeah. There were authors along the way from Louisa May Alcott.

Little Women is the first novel I remember reading that just took me completely away from where I was, which was the back of a station wagon going on some long, long family vacation. Post-Congo. Yeah. Yeah, you weren't reading that book at six. No, I was probably nine or ten. Well, she could have been. Some people are early.

She could be a Doogie Howser, a prodigy. I was an... Then I went to medical school. No, I was an early reader. Actually, I remember the first word that I read. No. I do because you know how you remember the things that stun you? Sure, yeah, yeah, of course.

Well, I was three. I know that because of where we lived. And my dad was a reader. When he was home, he had his face in a newspaper or even the cereal box on the table, whatever there was that had print. He was reading it. And I just remember watching him and thinking, I want that. I want me some of that, Whatever he's getting from those words. And I knew I had probably beleaguered my mother to teach me the alphabet. So I knew the alphabet. So I remember

my dad laying down a newspaper and going to work. And I climbed up on the couch and I opened that newspaper and just stared at it saying, come to me. What is it it and i would just pick out words and say the letters and i saw o-r-a-n-g and it became orange it was like that that appear and that flavor and that whole experience just broke on my mind it was like like an orange smashed me on the head. From these little symbols. From those, yeah. That first experience of the symbol becoming the experience. Yes. Like going straight into the brain. I mean, how could you forget that? Yes, yes. Okay, great. Because I was going to say two seconds ago, but this is yet another example of writing and reading is magic. There's a bunch of magic that happens.

Yeah. There's a crazy symbol. There's no way that should make you think of the smell or taste or visual of an orange. Likewise, the magic trick of literature, say Little Women, is that if I write an opinion piece, a nonfiction piece, and I make a claim about how the world should be or how it is, it's quite likely to induce defensiveness. If I ask you only to join this character on a journey and you personally, your identity is not a threat, that's a magic trick. Where you can lead people with fiction is really magic. I completely agree with you. I say this all the time. It is a kind of truth.

It makes me really sad to hear people say, well, they don't have time to read fiction or it's like secondary somehow to journalism. It's another kind of truth. But it's magical, as you say, because journalism informs you. It gives you information. Your point about defensiveness is exactly on point. You can decide, oh, do I believe this or not? But fiction is the only medium we have that takes you inside of another brain. It's an empathy machine for sure.

You actually put your life down on the bedside table or whatever, and you put on the life of another person. So their kids are your kids and their worries are your worries and you feel their fear. It's even deeper than empathy. It's losing yourself inside another life. And there's nothing to replace that. And I think it's awfully important to learn. I mean, not necessarily at age three, but learn when you're still young enough to train your brain to do that without the defensiveness of thinking about what am I reading? Yeah. What are they asking me to do?

Right. What opinion are they asking me to support or deny? Right. And what is the symbolism here or whatever? Just to learn to read fiction and do that magical thing of putting fiction on when you're young enough that your brain, I think, still has the plasticity to enjoy it. Because I'm afraid that if you don't like a second language, it's harder to learn that process later on. And there's so much going on. Like we could look at biochemically, right?

The part of your brain that's activated while reading a bit of news is like generally to fall into the amygdala. If you're looking at this empathetic human experience, which predates all of our political opinions, predates all of our civilized governments, everything. It's the truest thing that we can tap into. Yeah, it's just really magical.

Yeah, I like what you just said, that it's the truest thing we can tap into. Well, I was trained as a biologist. This excites me greatly. I'm an anthropology major, so the fact that we're both sitting here is hilarious. Anthropology was my minor in graduate school. And so I'm really interested in the human condition as we were for 300,000 years before this little blip of history where we began getting all our information, not from people, but from an intermediate source. We evolved as social animals. We evolved to receive information from people.

We also evolved to be very quick to judge in friend or foe. In group, out group. Yeah, exactly. All of those things are just in us. And so I think it's interesting that fiction is the one medium of gaining information that kind of replicates the human experience. Yeah, the early storytelling. Getting the experience from another person. And the advantage is that we can get that information from someone who's not in our family or our group.

A stranger. But from a stranger who lives in another side of the world. It's a way that we can experience the other without that defensive otherness. You can teleport in reading. You can time travel in reading. Everything we would hope that would be invented exists in this 3,000-year-old tradition. Oh my God. Yeah, it makes me so excited. It is so cool. When you think about the aliens, let's imagine they can't read. Somehow they made it all the way here, but they can't read yet. They're looking at us and they're like, what's going on with those people?

They're just staring at a paper and they're crying or laughing. How? They probably think it's a slightly bigger phone. They can't read. Oh, they have these really big phones they occasionally look at. It seems to be at bed at night, on trains.

That was me looking at my dad when I was three. Like, what is it? What is the magic there? Because clearly it is. Yeah. Clearly it's holding him there. Yeah, that's what the aliens will think. Also, I guess this is what the internet has become over time,

but certainly when I was young, to be in Holden Caulfield's brain and go, oh, there's another person that feels like me, that feels like this place is really abstract, that feels like this is all arbitrary, that these rules and all this stuff is very confusing. I hadn't talked to another kid at school, nor was I likely to bump into one that felt the way I did and the comfort I got out of that. Oh, well, minimally, there's another one of me in this fictitious world. Right. That feeling that someone has just touched you on

the shoulder and said, yeah, me too. Well, as they say, it's windows and it's mirrors. Both are really important to see yourself and to see somebody that you'll never be. Someone who's a different gender or so different that the only way you can really experience their reality is through a novel. Yeah. Okay, so you already hinted at it, which is you majored in biology and got a master's in ecology and evolutionary biology. Let's go back even further. Okay. Dad was a physician. You're born evolutionary biology. Let's go back even further. Okay. Dad was a physician. You're born in Kentucky.

Actually, I was born in Maryland. He was in the Navy, but I don't remember that part. We moved to Kentucky. Yeah, Annapolis you were born. Yeah. Okay. Who cares? My earliest memories are from Eastern Kentucky. Okay. And then I just want to tell you more self-indulgence. So all my family's from

Hazard, Kentucky. My mom was born in 1951. So similar, feminist, all these things. So much of your story, I feel very connected to. But growing up in Kentucky up till I guess seven, you go to the Congo? Yeah. I always say that's what I did instead of second grade. Okay. Skip second grade in lieu of Congo. Right, in lieu of Congo. Which then was Zaire? It was the Republic of Congo then. We were there right after independence. So it was just a minute after Lumumba was killed. It was still up in the air and it hadn't become the dictatorship that it was under Mobutu yet. It was right in between the horrible colonization and the horrible what the CIA helped to impose after.

A moment of hope for the Congo. helped to impose after. A moment of hope for the Congo. Not that any of that was especially relevant where we lived because we were in a place that was so rural. I'm just going to say it's probably hard for you to imagine because there was no plumbing, no electricity, no cars. You got your water from the river. You didn't need to study anthro. You lived it. You did fieldwork. You were doing an ethnography at seven years old. Well, I'll tell you what, it really changed my life. It was a deep dive into the notion that what's true and right and good in one place can be very different in another. And for example, I had never thought about being white before. And then I went to a place where nobody in the village had seen white kids before.

They had maybe seen white adults. Were they fairly fascinated by you? That's one word for it. Grabby? Handsy? Yeah, like, why don't you have any skin? Right. Why are you, yeah.

And I had really long hair, which kids just kept trying to pull off. And was it blonde? Like, that's so confusing. It wasn't, but it was long. Yeah. You know, and straight. It was just like, what is this weird stuff you have on your head? So I was very self-conscious, and my brother and I just tried to learn Ketuba and keep up with these kids who were so competent.

By the age of probably nine or ten, all the kids in Kikongo were doing basically adult work. The girls were taking care of younger siblings. The boys were finding food, climbing trees to get birds out of a bird nest to eat or, you know, what have you. And I just felt really like this useless person. It was a very interesting way to discover a sense of race. Really quick. So dad was there doing health care work. Mom and dad. Yeah. Was it religious?

Zero religious component. I will say that a lot of the social services that existed in the Congo after independence, because the Belgians didn't allow Congolese people any education at all. So when the Belgians left, there was sort of a dearth of doctors, any kind of professions. And so there were religiously based groups that organized things like what you would say Doctors Without Borders now to get people into places and kind of help with education, social welfare stuff. So there was probably a group of missionaries who helped set up this arrangement. My dad just was born with this vocation. He just wanted to help people that really, really needed medical care. And so we spent most of our time in Eastern Kentucky,

pretty poor region of the country. But now and then he'd just get a wild hair and he would talk to a colleague and say, well, where do people need a doctor more? Where can I get the most bang for my buck? Right. Like, where would I be the only physician within, you know, like 500 miles? We're going to see 300 patients a day. This is it. Yeah.

I want to see leprosy. I want to see. I mean, seriously. Yeah. And we did. I mean, my sister was two. I was seven. My brother was nine.

And when I imagine taking my kids into this situation, I cannot. Because, I mean, we all had malaria. Oh, my God. We all had one thing or another. But I wouldn't write that out of my history. I think it made me who I am in a big way. Did you know it was temporary? Yeah.

Were you scratching in the wall five? At least knowing, like, this isn't for, I would feel better. Yeah, it wasn't permanent. It was a huge adventure. I really did do this instead of second grade. There was no schooling. My brother and I were just feral children. We were just left to our own devices.

I think my mother was trying to keep the two-year-old alive and try to figure out what to feed us. Oh, man. Yeah, there were hard things about not having enough to eat. So on one hand, we would go, Dad's incredibly altruistic. But also, if I'm the child of Dad, I could also say, little egomaniacal to drag all of us. You know, you have a hair up your ass. Now we all have to join you.

And not eat food for a year. Yeah, yeah. And here's a wife who says, whither thou goest. You know, like, okay, honey. Yeah, I wouldn't do that. We'll just leave it at that. Congo is just an example. The place where I grew up in Kentucky and the public school system, I mean, bless their hearts. There were teachers trying hard, but we had so little funding. Even the efforts that have been made since to kind of equalize

like state testing and stuff didn't exist then. So my high school had one science course and it was called science. I never did homework. I don't remember really learning anything in school. How did you get into DePaul? Was it challenging? That's the question. Yeah.

So it was like this in Congo. It was like this throughout my childhood. If I wanted to know something, I had to figure it out. We had books in the house. My dad, as I mentioned, was a reader. He read poetry to us. I remember really early, my dad reading Robert Burns to us, like a poem about a louse. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Good for him. You're going, you're crowling fairly, however that goes. Just this fascination with words was always there. And we had books. And we had the bookmobile in the library.

And so I just- Supplemented? It wasn't even supplementation. It was like that was the primary. I was an autodidact. For example, my brother and I decided we were going to read the Encyclopedia Britannica. I started at Z. Oh, like you're tunneling.

By the time we meet, we're going to know everything. Yes. Well, if you're together. That was our thinking. That was like, we're a team and we will know everything. Can I ask how far you got? We got pretty far. That's the sad part.

Because to me, my brother and I had a lot of plans, but they would run out of steam. We were going to build a raft and go across Lake Michigan. Yeah, we had those plans too. But we learned Morse code. My brother and I taught ourselves Morse code and we ran this wire through the register from my room to his and so we would tap out. It's really tedious.

And we were saying things like, are you asleep? But just that we did that. I mean, you could think on the one hand it was really pathetic. No. But you can think on the other hand, we were just figuring out whatever we needed to know and finding out how to learn things. And I feel like that served me so well. That's an enormous gift. It is.

Yeah. You have to learn all this stuff, which no one wants to have to do anything. But if you're just on your own quest for knowledge, that's an entirely different endeavor. I think that it's why I'm a novelist is I just feel like I can do anything. No, I like that. I hope that doesn't sound terrible. No. You feel competent. The opposite as you felt in Congo, you became to feel competent.

Yeah. Or anything I need to know, anything I need to become an expert on, I can. It kind of sounds like you're on Gilligan's Island a little bit. Yeah, without the comedy, without the skipper. You know, when I see people worrying a whole lot about getting their kids into even the best preschool and worrying so much that kids will be at a disadvantage somehow in this horse race of education if they don't get the best and the best and the best. And I had to figure out

how just to get to go to college because people in my high school didn't. Nobody told us, oh, you need to take the SAT or anything like that. My brother and I figured that out from reading. From the encyclopedia. Thank God you had your brother. You figured that out because that was in the S's. Yeah, that's right. S-A-T-E-S. I read this part.

I couldn't do that. But definitely my brother and I were a team. It would have been different to be solo, but I didn't even know of the existence of the Ivy Leagues. This was a kind of long story. I got into DePaul on a music scholarship, which sounds crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was a pianist and that's kind of how I got through high school intact was just losing myself in music and playing the piano. I also played other instruments and

that was sort of my social group, which was outside of the little town where we lived. I went to piano competitions and stuff. And so my first boyfriend was another piano player. Oh, this is hot. Yeah. Classical piano. What if there were a couple at a piano bar? Dueling pianos. Exactly.

So yeah, I just figured out, because we needed scholarships. And so I got myself to DePauw. They had a good music program and auditioned and got in on a piano scholarship. And I just thought, well, this will work. Was dad at all urging you to pursue medicine or were you not inclined to pursue medicine? You obviously hold him in high regard. When I was young, I wanted to do everything. I remember wanting to be a doctor and a farmer and I don't know, fly airplanes. Not that that was really an option. Concert pianist. Yeah, I kind of wanted to do everything. And I found a way.

Yeah, exactly. Being a novelist, you get to be everything. What a great point. I remember I didn't really know that women could be doctors. That wasn't clear to me. That's back in the day where the riddle, this may come from you. Oh, the riddle. Do you remember when we were kids, there was a riddle?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The doctor is not. The doctor and his son are driving in a car. There's an accident. The father dies. The son's rushed to the OR and then the operating surgeon says, I can't operate on him. He's my son. How is this possible? And I was completely flummoxed by that riddle as a kid. And my kids, you ask them that and they're like, there's not even a riddle there. No, because the majority of students in med school now are women. It's actually one of the encouraging things I've witnessed that we told them that riddle and they're like, this isn't a riddle. Yeah, right.

Yeah, what is wrong with you? But no, I do remember thinking about being a doctor. And I remember kind of this turning moment in my life when I realized I couldn't do that because of empathy. I would hurt too much. You had too much or you lacked it? No, no, the opposite. I think I was maybe a little opposite of my dad. I knew I would be too invested. I thought that if I have to see people die, I will die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You weren't so interested in seeing the leprosy he was super interested in seeing. It felt too painful to me to put my whole life into people's pain.

I just couldn't go there. Right. You know, I didn't know what I would do. I just knew I needed to get to college because all of the women that I knew growing up were completely dependent on men financially and, frankly, not very happy. Yeah. Most indentured servants aren't super happy. Yeah, exactly. That's how it felt to me. I wanted to get out of indentured servitude and college was going to be a ticket. And when I got there, it took me 10 minutes to figure out, I'm not going to be a classical pianist. Maybe there are like 10 job openings and I wasn't in the top 10. So I realized that was not going to pan out as far as the financial security end of things. So I just switched to biology because it seemed solid.

If I learn science, I can get a job. And I didn't think I was going to be a writer ever. Well, great, because I look at your trajectory. I'm curious when that starts to seep in. I obviously know when you start writing. But at that point, when you join biology, again, you have a lot of fantasies, which I appreciate, but what is the primary fantasy that will happen after you get this biology degree? Do you think you'll teach? I wasn't that clear. I just thought I really like learning this stuff.

It really clicked. I really love science. Meiosis is sexy. Yeah, yeah. Well, biology is sexy. It is. No, I just loved learning it, and I figured this is practical. I'll get a job. I didn't really nail it down. I still wanted to just do some living. I guess I wasn't yet ready to give up on the I'm going to do everything. You go to France immediately after graduating for a year. I just wanted to see the world.

I got one of those $200 Icelandic air tickets. I got to interrupt you. This usually takes me the entire episode to do. I know who it is. You say it first. Meryl Streep. Yep, Meryl fucking Streep. You have such a quality.

It's crazy. Do you get that a lot? I do. Yeah. Of course, of course. People ask me if we're related. The voice is really similar, too. Yeah.

I'm so glad we're on the same page. I thought it like four minutes into this. I was like, oh, my God. Half the time, there's a noise. Monica, because we'll have like a really profound professor on or something, and I'm so distracted by what movie star they look like, and then eventually I'll take some time to say that. We're like in the middle of an important conversation, which we are now as well. Okay, here's the difference between her and me. I don't have a star down there on that sidewalk.

Yet. Yet. You should have one. star down there on that sidewalk. Yet. Yet. You should have one. Come on. She's wonderful. Okay, sorry. Back to France. I just got that $200 one-way ticket that you could get on Icelandic Air and hitchhiked all over Europe.

I did whatever jobs that you could do. I worked on archaeological digs. No kidding. One in northern France. Finding Neanderthal bones. That's what we were after. Northern Gaul. Asterix. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. You know, I just sort of fell

into this French commune. We don't know each other well enough yet, but did you take on a French lover? Of course. Yes! Obviously. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, wonderful. That's great. Obviously. Yeah, just, right, like, one? You're That's great. Obviously. Yeah, just like one. You're asking one, just one?

You know, just one thing led to another. I lived in Paris for a little while, again, living with a whole bunch of people in a small apartment. Just the things you do. Then I worked in York, England for a while. I just moved around and did stuff and just experienced life. How did you know when it was time to come home? Because my work visa ran out. Okay, that'll help. That's how I knew. Was there a version in your mind that you would stay forever in Europe? Yeah. Why not? You were probably having the best time of your whole

life. I was. And I really liked looking back at my country and not being in it. There were things I missed, mostly having to do with, I don't know, it's so hard to explain. There's something about the way Americans reveal ourselves to each other. Kind of an immediate closeness that you can establish. Like this conversation we're having. Could not happen in Sweden. And it wouldn't happen in France either. You don't think so. No, and it wouldn't happen in the UK.

I think that aspect of American culture is probably moving European cultures in the direction of. Well, I also think we have a historical explanation for that, which is like we were the most multicultural place on the planet. If any group of people with their high dopamine levels could trust strangers, it's us. Right. And these homogeneous populations have a much different everything. Yeah. Also, we're the apex individualists.

We're capitalists. We got to get out there and sell ourselves. We got to connect, right? That's all in the stew. That's the part I didn't miss. Yes, of course. Yeah. But I'm a very verbal person.

And while I became comfortable in French, I never was fluent enough to completely relax into words. I miss that. I was in a job where my supervisor had to lie to keep me on to say I was doing something that no French person could do, which was not true. Right. Build a McDonald's franchise? Yeah, for example. Little did they know you could do something that no one else could do, but they didn't know yet.

That wasn't proven yet. Yeah. Okay, you have to come home. How do you then get to Tucson, Arizona? Yeah. This is some wild shit, Barbara. I was footloose. I'll say. I just wanted to see, Arizona. This is some wild shit, Barbara. I was footloose. I'll say.

I just wanted to see the West. I figured I'd stay a couple of weeks, honestly. I mean, I had probably $150 in my pocket and I just thought I'll go see the West, see what happens. And I got a job, then I got an apartment and then I got a boyfriend. And the next thing you know,

it's like a house and a kid. And wow, that's where the Rolling Stones started gathering moss. Do you feel trapped by that? Someone with such wanderlust and an appetite for all experiences? I mean, I would have just rolled on if I felt trapped. I wouldn't have thought of it this way until this very moment. But I spent most of my 20s running away from the notion of being trapped. Just because I grew up feeling so afraid of that, so determined not to be that woman who's tied down,

that becomes its own trap. I was very reluctant to commit to relationships, to jobs, to place, to anything. I didn't have a home. And we haven't really talked about writing. I don't suppose you need to. I always wrote. I got a diary when I was eight years old. Somebody gave me that diary with the little keys. Oh, yeah. We all had it. You did? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That keyhole that could be open with a bobby pin. Or you could just pull it apart. Or you could just pull it apart. And what you would have found in my seven-year-old diary was then I read a book and then I went to bed. It's really, really boring. Sounds like my current journal. But along with reading, writing was just that private thing I did to process my experience.

And my diaries did become more interesting in my teens and more confessional and thoughtful. I too started writing at a young age. There was also the element that I can't actually go have this adventurous life I want right this second, but I can have it on paper. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Sasha hated sand, the way it stuck to things for weeks. So when Maddie shared a surf trip on Expedia Trip Planner, he hesitated. Then he added a hotel with a cliffside pool to the plan.

And they both spent the week in the water. You were made to follow your whims. We were made to help find a place on the beach with a pool and a waterfall and a soaking tub and, of course, a great shower. Expedia. Made to travel. It's funny, I not too long ago cleaned out the childhood home and found this cache of my short stories that I wrote when I was between ages of eight and 13. Every single one of them was about a little boy with some kind of terrible disability. They were all in the first person. I am a boy with one leg. I am a blind boy.

Here I lie, a boy with one leg. Well, but you were in an environment where you were exposed to a lot of horror. Boys with one leg. Yes, I am a boy with elephantiasis. I don't know what that was about, but I just didn't want to be a girl, was what it was. Very limiting. Exactly. So I think that my fantasies of being boys were based in that, but the obstacle— Because you couldn't escape how you really felt, which was disabled.

Was disabled. That's right. Yeah, yeah. It leaks in. But yeah, I was writing these fanciful stories and I wrote poems. And I also feel like writing about what I lived through, I was always really conscious of time getting away,

which is a weird thing. I mean, kids aren't supposed to worry about time flying by, but I did. Maybe because I love seeing people die. Also, if you have a million fantasies in a romantic inner life, you have a finite amount of time. You're aware of that.

That's really a good point. I was constantly like, oh, you got to get the show on the road. Like if we're going to do all these things I want to do, can I really wait till 12th grade before I head out to California? You know? Yeah.

I would say I'm a very impatient person. I have always had to cultivate patience. That's something I have to work hard on. Kids really help with that, don't they You know. Yeah. I would say I'm a very impatient person. I have always had to cultivate patience. That's something I have to work hard on. Kids really help with that, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the more in a hurry you are, the slower they go.

They're the antidote. If you're struggling with patience currently. Yes, have a baby. I feel like you could, not to be this capitalist girl, but you could sell those short stories now for so much money. You could give them to charity, the money, but wow, I'd love to read them. Sure.

You should make a cash offer before she leaves. $14,000. I don't know. I could get canceled. No, you would. You couldn't. It could be bad. But back to time,

I just felt like time is this river and I can't pin it down. And writing about what I did today, what happened today, what I saw or thought or what hurt today or what I accomplished today, it kind of nailed that river to its banks. That's how I felt. And so that was the reason I wrote, not really for anything else but me. And I kept doing that. In college, I wrote because I was a science major and I didn't have electives. I took one creative writing course and I loved it.

My creative writing professor said, you know, you're good at this. You should take another. No, no, no. I have to take chemistry and physics. But my chemistry and physics books have poems in the margins and they're like poems about electrons and stuff. But I felt like if anybody knew I was doing that, they would think I was unserious. Right. It felt frivolous.

Yeah. Growing up in a working class culture and a working class place, you don't say you want to be an artist when you grow up. Well, at least in Kentucky, you don't say that because it seems- It feels hoity-toity. It feels hoity-toity. It feels hoity-toity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what it feels.

It feels upper class. It feels rich. We hate rich people. Exactly. It's self-indulgence. What a luxury. And it's putting yourself above it. Like, I'm not one of you.

It's like saying, I'm going to be Meryl Streep when I grow up. Yes, which happened on accident. Yes, I just kept this to myself. Can I say as a boy, as a young boy growing up in very blue-collar Detroit area, it was gay.

That was my fear. I was writing. I was being creative. And so my little paradigm I was stuck in was that was gay. Because it was feminine, which also is probably part of your feeling, too. You want to be a powerful woman, which means more masculine. Right. I need to do what the boys are doing.

Because they're not writing poems. Right. That need to do what the boys are doing. They're not writing poems. Right. That's for sure. It's all wild. That either of us would have had any thought like, this thing needs to be private. It's so crazy. Yeah.

And God forbid if you'd wanted to be a dancer. Oh, no. It wasn't on the table. People ask me that in interviews. Like, when did you know you were going to be an actor? Did you act all through high school? I'm like, you didn't go to my high school. I would have acted in high school.

I would have got my ass kicked in the parking lot every day. Not an option. That's how I felt for a long time after I left Carlisle, Kentucky. Being a writer was not an option. Saying I am a writer, I couldn't imagine it. Yeah. I needed to be something real and practical. So I just wrote.

And all that time I was traveling around, I was still writing, and I wrote poems in French. God, they're probably terrible. But I was writing and processing, and I think what hit me in Tucson is I didn't have a voice. I wasn't from anywhere. Interesting. I didn't have any authority. anywhere. I didn't have any authority. I was writing short stories set in Tucson and they just felt fake, just as fake as those French stories that I wrote. There was no authenticity. And also, honestly, I had internalized the shame of being hillbilly. I mean, we haven't even started

on that. Oh no, we're getting there. But just as I didn't understand I was white until I went to the Congo, I didn't understand I was a hillbilly until I went to college in a state where people stopped me in the cafeteria and made me say words so that they could laugh at me. W-A-S-H. Warsh. Yeah. Yeah, and syrup. What's this syrup? Smells like a polecat.

What? Yeah, just mocking my accent and saying, oh, you're wearing shoes. How cute. So I just kind of erased saying, oh, you're wearing shoes. How cute. So I just kind of erased that. The accent you're hearing now, I code shift. When I'm in Kentucky or when I'm at home, when I'm talking to my neighbors, I talk the way I spoke growing up. But little by little and not really intentionally, I just neutralized my affect. For sure.

So that people will listen to what you're saying instead of stopping at the words. Really quick, you're arriving at a place that artists have to arrive at, which is you first start by trying to emulate things that you yourself find captivating or romantic, and you can't succeed at it. And then hopefully the road leads you to believing, actually, my version is worthy of telling, and my voice is worthy of listening to,

and that's such a crazy road. I agree with you completely, and I'd take it a step further. You have to get to, I do have something to say. My voice is worthy. Furthermore, it's the only thing I've got. Yeah, exactly. It's your only true asset. And if all you have out there are antennae for what you think people want from you, you got nothing. I know. Right, yeah, yeah. Absolutely nothing. And I think that's where I was for a long time and when I was maybe starting to take my writing a little more seriously,

even though I still hid it through grad school, but I was writing poems and starting to share them and starting to share stories. You're also writing for the school paper you're doing science related. Yeah, my first job after graduate school was as a scientific writer, just talking to scientists and translating what they said into English that other people could read. But the, what do you call it, when I fell down on the road to Damascus was, does that play? It's nice. It's really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Very poetic. I was becoming aware that I had no authentic voice somehow. It's like the cogs weren't catching. And somebody gave me a collection of short stories called Shiloh and Other Stories by Bobbi Ann Mason. Do you know Bobbi Ann Mason? Never read, never heard of.

All right. She's Kentuckian. This collection, which would have been released early 80s, was quite renowned. People really paid attention. It was kind of the minimalist era. It was sort of a little like— Raymond Carver, were you about to say? Yeah, ask. A little after that. But she's from western Kentucky.

And all of her short stories were about people who worked in Kmart and they did shift work and they were my people. These stories were beautiful and they were respected. How inspirational. It was like the scales fell from my eyes. It just really happened all at once. I understood what I had been. Repressing. Yeah.

The enormity of the ordinary life. And it can make the reader feel special. I remember those types of things made me feel special. Hemingway, I was like, oh, I'm not in World War I. I'm not going to sail a boat here. I don't catch marlins. I'm going to caught a big fish. Yeah, yeah.

I can't totally relate, but it's like, oh, I know the mundanity. The mundane being broken. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that feeling so intimately. And it slows you down. It stops you in your own tracks and asks you to look at the lives that are being lived in your circle, in your own neighborhood, among your own people, and how brave they are, what they're dealing with, and that that's worthy. That's literature too. And in my case, reading Bobby Ann Mason, that I didn't need to be ashamed of my people.

They could be heroes of stories. Well, and they weren't ridiculous. All along, I knew better, but especially when you're young, you just internalize the shame. The world tells you something else. The world tells you that you're worthless. So I did a deep dive. I read Wendell Berry. I had been exposed before, but I hadn't really paid attention.

And so I read a lot of Kentucky authors. And then this collection of short stories I had been writing or trying to write set in Tucson. Well, I wrote a short story set in Kentucky called The One to Get Away. This girl in high school whose goal was to get through high school without being pregnant and get out of there. And she got this car. It had an engine. It didn't have a starter. And she drives across the country, and someone puts a baby in her car,

and then she gets to Tucson, and she tells the whole story that I had been trying to write with a Kentucky accent. I needed that first-person Kentucky voice. And you were spelling out phonetically the accent? No, but that was the bean trees. That was my first, no. Okay, right. I was being poetic.

She needed a Kentucky accent. She needed a Kentucky identity. I got you. She needed to see things the way I saw things. Right. And that finally worked. I didn't know it was working. It was clicking for me. It felt like, yeah, this is what I've been trying to do. Also, ironically, while I was writing this novel about this girl who all she wanted in life was not to get pregnant and then ends up with a baby. I was pregnant. You know, I was happily pregnant, but I really rushed that novel. I wrote it during my pregnancy because I couldn't sleep and I had all those extra hours. What a gift. Talk about making lemonade out of lemons.

Yeah, yeah. I don't sleep very much and I call it my superpower. God, maybe I should embrace that for me too because I'm kind of just miserable half the night. No, no. I'm serious about this. Embrace it. I mean, so long as you can still function because some people just don't need as much sleep as others. You know, my doctor was saying, oh, do something really tedious that you hate, like scrub. Literally, my doctor said, get a toothbrush and scrub the grout. I said, screw that. I'm writing a novel. And I did, and I sent it off to this agent right before I had my baby.

And this is the amazing true fact of Barbara Kingsolver. I got my first book contract and had my first baby on the same day. On the same day. The two most pivotal moments of your life. Exactly. On the same day. We're one moment. So efficient. Twins. You birthed two. Two careers. The two most important things that I am happened at once.

The cornerstones of your identity all in the same day. And as you can imagine, I only noticed one of them at a time. I was hormonal. I'm the queen of the universe. I just produced a human being. And then, wait, what? I also sold my book. Yeah.

I want to read your journal from that day. I gave it to my daughter, actually. Oh, you did? Yeah. But that's when I finally was able to say, journal from that day. I gave it to my daughter, actually. Oh, you did? Yeah. But that's when I finally was able to say, I am a writer because I sold a novel. Yeah, you're in now. And it was finished. Very little editing.

One sentence, I think, I changed. And it was published and I got an advance that at the time I thought was an enormous amount of money. A billion dollars. Right, right. It was enough for me to live on while I wrote another book. And that changed everything. Yeah, so, right. It was enough for me to live on while I wrote another book, and that changed everything. Yeah, so you're off to the races. That's 1988. That's right.

The week it was released was the week my daughter learned to walk. Oh, my God. This is all serendipitous. It is. So then you go on a tear. You have Animal Dreams in 90. You have Pigs in Heaven, which is a sequel to The Bean Trees, 93. And you know what? You're leaving out. Also, there was a collection of short stories.

So I had four books in four years. Oh my God. Because there was a backlog. I had stuff I had been working on before that I just brought out of the closet and said, well, guess what? You guys like what I'm writing? Here's some more. I was able to get a bunch of books out pretty efficiently in those early years because I could just live from advance to advance. I did some other work, some other freelance work, which was good for me,

I think, to be a journalist, but I didn't have to go back to a day job. You did the thing. You were supporting yourself. You weren't an indentured servant. Exactly. I had my own money. Yes. I could be an artist and be independent. Wow. I'm only going to fast forward because I want to spend a lot of time on Demon Copperhead. I think my publicist would agree with you on that. Would like that. Yes. I don't know if your publicist has told you, but Monica and I have already talked about Demon Copperhead. I bet you 40 times in the last seven months. I get these DMs from time to time. Aren't you an expert? Really liked your book. I'm glad it made its way to you.

That's good. Lifewise, I just want to throw in there that in 94, you get married to an ornithologist. We just had this incredible owl expert on. Oh, yeah. And we got really deep into birdwatchers, ornithologists. Wait, who was on? Jennifer Ackerman. Do you know Jennifer Ackerman? I don't know her personally, but I know her work.

In that conversation, she was very much drawn to birdwatching. And I said, do you think if we had to generalize our stereotype that ornithologists and birdwatchers are people who very little stimuli gets them excited? In fact, probably pretty sensitive to too much stimuli. Is this the case with Steven? Was that true of him? He's also a rock and roll musician. Oh, wow. That goes right out the window. When I met him true of him? He's also a rock and roll musician. Oh, wow. That goes right out the window.

Like when I met him, he was like, he was the front man of a band. Oh. And a professor of psychology. Oh, my God. Yeah, he kind of does a lot of things. He's a polymath. Like me, yeah. He's a polymath.

Very sexy. A rock and roll star and a professor? Oh, my God. Right. Yeah. Exactly. I'm going to implode. Right.

No, he's the perfect guy. Oh, that's wonderful. That's exactly. I'm going to implode. Right. No, he's the perfect guy. Oh, that's wonderful. So I forgot what was the question. I just wanted to update on this story before we landed Demon. I just want to mention that you marry an ornithologist. You have a second daughter. 98, you write or is released the Poisonwood Bible. And that one gets a ton of attention. You meet Oprah for the first time. You're shortlisted for the Pulitzer and the Faulkner Award. Oh, man. You're very cemented at this point as a real titan in this space. So I'm saying all this to tell you and to admit to you my insane ignorance on you before I read Demon Copperhead. That's not insane. I didn't know of you. It goes deeper. Okay. How can it be deeper than you know nothing? Oh, watch this. And I'm going to name drop here. But Kevin Bacon, having dinner with him,

and he goes, you know, I don't read books. I wish I liked them. I just don't like them. But man, I read this fucking book, Demon Copperhead. I can't believe how much I love this book. He gave such a sales pitch that I went home that night. I went on Audible. I typed in Demon Copperhead. It came up. I began. I didn't even look who wrote it. Who cares? Doesn't matter who wrote it. At that moment, it didn't. Of course.

I feel like it happened here, didn't it? It did. I'm going to walk her through that. Oh, got it. Okay. Other prerequisite knowledge you must know is that I fucking hated the hillbilly elegy. Thank you. I fucking hated it.

Monica and I had a bunch of arguments. I was screaming from the rooftop. This is a fraudulent account of all of this. The person wasn't there. They didn't experience saying this. This is bullshit. And the one good thing about him running and winning the position he has now is it's proof that he's not one of us. Well, that's the only thing that ultimately Monica had to. I had to really eat my shorts or whatever that phrase is because we had a lot of arguments around that because he was like, I don't buy it. I know that world.

And I'm also from the South. I'm from Georgia. So I was like, well, you can't assume just because it wasn't your experience. Like we had so many debates. We had a lot of debates about it, right? And then I had to be like, God, you were right.

This fraud. It's his worldview. Okay, here's my complaint about that book. We don't even have to say the name of it. He's entitled to write his worldview. Okay, here's my complaint about that book. We don't even have to say the name of it. He's entitled to write his memoir. The fact that that got pitched and bought wholesale as my memoir, too, and your memoir, too. The explanation of a people makes me so mad because he had no context. He didn't talk about structural poverty. He didn't talk about structural poverty.

He didn't talk about the history of this region. It was a self-aggrandizement of his enormous accomplishment. Well, it was like bootstraps. Yes. I went to the Ivy League. If you only work hard enough, you can be. Right. And the thing is, what's heartbreaking about it is that it really validated the stereotype.

It was so widely, sorry. No. You've already eaten your shortbread. Yeah. the stereotype. It was so widely, sorry. No. You've already eaten your shorty. Yeah. It was so embraced by the rest of America because they want to hate on hillbillies. They want to look down on us. We are the last class of people that progressive people get to make fun of. There's also a poll. Humans love a quote, underdog. People love an underdog story. That's what it felt like a little bit, which is very problematic because it's, again, this model minority issue where-

Also, he's pretending he's Basquiat and he's not. Exactly. It makes people believe, oh, well, if he can do it, what's wrong with everybody else? Yeah. And that's wholly wrong. A lot of us recognize structural racism, institutional racism, but structural classism is just not talked about.

We just had Kerry Washington on, and she had two different jumping into different world experiences. One was her school was moved because they didn't want the white kids to have to bust into the Bronx, so they sent everyone to this Italian neighborhood. So that was her first kind of cultural clash. Then she ended up going to this very, very, very expensive on a scholarship Manhattan school. And I asked her, what was a bigger chasm? The racial divide you experienced when you went to the lower class Italian neighborhood or the socioeconomic one you experienced?

And she said tenfold the socioeconomic one. And I'm like, that is the enormous thing that no one wants to really sink their teeth into. And it's maddening. That's right. Because America is the classless society. We've really, really bought that. Yeah. The fallacy of meritocracy. Yeah. I didn't write Demon Copperhead as an answer to anything. I don't want to give that guy credit for it. But when I read that, I was so angry about the lack of context that it gave me this hunger to write the great Appalachian novel. I wanted to somehow tell the whole story of what made us this way. It's the poorest hunk of America. It's a big chunk of America that has really terrible unemployment, terrible rates of disability, and so many things stacked against us.

It's not because we're lazy. I mean, I can walk you through how we got that way. The coal companies literally bought everything, including the schools, including the courthouses. Yeah, talk about a company town. Yeah, it's a company region. They deliberately kept out all other kinds of employment, so people had to work in the mines. And then when the mines stopped employing people, then there's nothing. And likewise, the coal companies deliberately suppressed the culture of education.

They still do. In Kentucky, it's even hard to explain how stigmatizing it was to be smart. I grew up hiding my brains. Yes. You know about that. Yeah, you're like a rich kid. Nobody knows any rich people, so there's no frame of reference for that.

It's like, who do you think you are? You're not better than me. Yeah, yeah. And that's cultural. And that comes from a history of these companies that didn't want people to be smart and a family culture where they don't want you to go to college

because then you'll leave home and they'll never see you again. So it's all of a piece. It's not about laziness. So yeah, I wanted to write that novel. And my point of entry into it I knew would be the opioid epidemic because that's just this freight train of exploitation starting with timber, pulling out the timber, then pulling out the coal, then tobacco.

The fact that Purdue Pharma looked at data and they targeted us, our exact region. Well, it's very parallel to the crack epidemic of the 80s and the victims of that. Yeah, the most vulnerable. Wait, so finish. Okay, great. Yeah, because I think you'll get a kick out of this because it involves my hubris. So I get this book. I come on here, I start talking about it all the time. And here's what I am saying repeatedly on here. This is so epic because I'm wrong on like nine accounts. So I'm like, boy, this book's the opposite of Hillbilly Algae. Whoever wrote this book was in those situations.

Like I was in those situations. I had the violent stepdads. I had the young mother. Addiction across the board in the family. I'm like, now this is an authentic. I'm like, this is someone who lived it. I've been going on for a while. I don't know at what point it occurs to Monica. We're like real time. And I'm like, this is someone who lived it. I've been going on for a while. I don't know

at what point it occurs to Monica. We're like real time. And I'm like, who? Okay. I look it up and I was like, oh, it's Barbara Kingsolver. I'm like, wait, it's a woman? Yeah. And I was like, yeah. And not just a woman. Like one of the biggest authors of our time. I'm like, it's a woman. So wait, she's not a boy. That is how insanely good your book is. I honestly was on this mission to explain to everyone that this is what happens when an author actually has lived the thing and blah, blah, blah. And it turns out I'm completely wrong. I then become actually more fascinated with you because now, and here lies most of my questions. Okay. Let's just talk about really quick. Cause it's at the beginning of the book,

you meet the boyfriend, the boyfriend's always a salesman. And then once they buy us, then they're an authoritarian. It's like the most specific transition. There's all these clues. I'm in that single wide when that's happening. And I'm like, I can remember the days. So how do you know that? How on earth do you know what I lived? Do you know how you know it? Here's the thing about being an author. It's so much better than being an athlete or a model, or maybe even an actor, because you get better with age. There's no cap. The older you get, the more things you've been, the more lives you've had. You have wisdom. I think what we really go to literature for is wisdom. I mean, we want entertainment, but really

we want to come through it kind of knowing more about life. The longer you live, the more of that you have to offer, the more scar tissue. I remember when I was young looking at old people, old people being like 40 probably, and thinking, well, they've always been old. Right? Yes, of course. And I mean, I just think you still do. And so I've seen on social media, how does this grandma person know what it's like to be a teenager? Well, you know what?

I was. What am I allowed to say on here? Everything you want. Yes. God damn it. I was a fucking teenager. There we go. I remember being 13 much better than I remember being 35.

The same. Right? It's so foundational. You feel things so intensely. There's so many firsts. They're seared in. I still have a teenager in me. I have all of those people I've ever been still in me, many of them very unhappy.

I'm a happy person now, but all of those unhappinesses are still in there. All of those terrible relationships that I feel lucky to have survived, they're in there. And I remember them. And I've read that actors, when you have a part, you think about the parts of you that relate to that part. I do the same. I haven't been a boy. That's the one thing. I can't tell you that I have been a boy.

But I have two daughters, nine years apart. So what that means is for the better part of two decades, I had teenage boys in my house. Yes. Just saying. I know what they do. I know how they think. So there's more of demon in me than you might imagine. Particularly two things about him. One is his sense of never belonging anywhere, that imposter syndrome. I mean, finally, we have a word for this for my

whole life. I've thought, I wonder if anybody else feels like they're going to come any minute, they're going to come over here and say, you don't belong in this party, leave. Of course. Turns out, yes, there's a name for that. Can we add the thing I related to, and this is pretty arrogant to say, but it's the truth. I was observing adults acting worse than I knew was right. And in ways I felt more mature than them. And I knew what was right and wrong more.

I felt a little special about that. I felt it in him, whether I projected that or not. I felt a little special about that. I felt it in him, whether I projected that or not. I felt like he was seeing everything. He wasn't a kid that was confused by this. He knew what the score was. He was in on it. And that's alienating and isolating in its own way. It is, unless, I mean, he kind of belongs to an underclass of kids who have to be the adults because they don't have any adults in their lives. Right. So I don't know that he felt special about it. It was just like, yeah, I'm the one that gets mom to work on time. I'm the one who finds her keys under the toilet. You know intuitively that that's the adults that are supposed to be doing that, not you.

So when you're doing it, there's something that you feel older than your age, I felt, I should say. Okay. Well, it's a little complicated in this novel because he is telling you the story from the advanced age of maybe 25 or something. Yeah, he's in his early 20s. But he's telling you it's a hero's journey, right? And the good thing about that is you know he's going to survive. Oh, man, I got to tell you, there are a bunch of times in the book, I'm like, how is this person still telling this story?

But he was, so I gave you that. It had to be in first person. I don't know that people would be able in first person. I don't know that people would be able to get through if they didn't know that. Right, exactly. It's a promise. Yeah. I don't like to read books, especially where children are in peril, especially after becoming a parent. I turn pages and look ahead to see if the kid's still alive. So yeah, I needed to give you that promise. So there is a little bit more maturity in the voice. And there are moments in the book where he breaks the fourth wall. He talks directly

to the reader saying, can you believe we did that? And here's the deal, he says. I know what you're thinking, but look, this is what we had to work with. So I see what you're saying about his sense of himself as being maybe special. The otherness, I think. The otherness. It's in there somewhere. I think when he feels like life is perfect because he's just playing the creek with his best friend, Maggot,

and mom's up there with her mellow yellow and her cigarette saying, don't y'all put your eyes out with sticks and that's perfect. Life is great. Yes, yes, yes. And nevermind that he's the one who's keeping his mom sober and getting her to work.

I don't think he feels especially, you know— Victimized. Yeah, yeah, victimized by that. That's just kind of how life is. And he does have Mrs. Paget feeding him when he's hungry and stuff. I think it's later. Adolescence changes his circumstances in many ways. But when he talks about going to Jonesville Middle School,

and he feels like 100 years older than these other kids his same age because they've had an easier life. They don't know what money is. He's actually been a wage laborer for several years already when he's 13. And so he can't believe the way they throw away money, and he calls them blind puppies. So that's when I think he becomes more self-aware, which is common in teenagers. What I think a lot of folks too that haven't been in that situation don't recognize is that we're aware you think we're gross. Like in my town, I know you think I'm gross. And at some point, that's a bonding thing between me and all my friends.

And then also a pride. Like you care about that and we don't and fuck you and we do stuff that you can't do. And you cobble together some esteem from the solidarity of your victimhood yeah he addresses that directly several times when he talks about hillbillies and this is the truth people from my region where i still live in appalachia we see ourselves portrayed on tv and in film on on the news. If at all we see ourselves as a joke, a stupid hillbilly joke, or a poverty documentary, that's it. I mean, it's not just Appalachia.

It's rural people in general. And it's this urban elite laughing. The coastal people. Yeah, it's everywhere. There are late night comedians I can't watch because I know it's going to be only 30 seconds till the Tennessee joke. I think this is really important to think about and talk about because it's at the heart of the

political polarization. That kind of condescension, when you feel it day after day from the national media that you're seeing, you reach a point. I mean, I don't vote the same way as some of my neighbors, but I get them. You feel that the system is so stacked against you that nobody's listening to you. You feel so invisible. You'll vote for the guy who just says, I'm going to blow up the system. Absolutely. You have the most beautiful analogy in the book. And I remember when I was reading it, I was so emotional, which is imagine being in the stall of the bathroom at school and the other kids come in and you can hear them all making fun of you and attacking you and belittling you. That is exactly what it's like. We can hear you.

We can hear you. We see you. That broke my heart for everyone that's grown up in that onslaught of endless punchlines. And it's still going on. And I would say it's worse now than it was five years ago because there's this kind of vindication. It's like, see, those stupid people voted for that stupid guy. So we feel validated in our hatred. If we felt a little guilty before for our condescension, now we don't have to.

Well, because it's life or death now. It is us against them. Yeah. So I'm in an interesting position as a rural person, as an Appalachian who has a platform. It's pretty important to me to use it to say this is life and death. We need to have a lot of conversations across these divides and people only take information from those they trust. That's all. So if you open the conversation with, I'm going to tell you stuff, you idiot, then that's over. Yeah. I just disagreed with someone who said they don't think all Republicans are this or that. They just don't have the right information. And I said, well, what you're saying is if they were as educated as you, they would think like you. Not that, A, people think differently, regardless of

education. There are differences of opinion. There's different dopamine levels. There's different everything. And different priorities. I think a lot of my liberal friends think, well, if everyone was as educated as I, they would have no choice but to think exactly how I do. Right. And they would put their career ahead of their families as I do. And they would work 90 hour work weeks as I do. Yes. Nope. Right. Right. They would value all the same stuff I value. Yeah. I don't like it. Also, I do want to say we left, you said you related to him in two ways and we didn't get to the second one. You're so good at that. I do want to hear it. She says this all the time. Okay. The one is the burden of his feeling like he is not wanted anywhere. Just nobody ever comes through for him.

He feels like every place he goes, they're not going to want to keep me. The good thing about Demon is he has this resilience. No matter what, there's something in him that's going to figure it out. That's going to get out of here. He doesn't stop moving. He's going to work on it. He's going to learn Morse code and he's going to read the Britannica. There you go. And that's me too. This conversation that he has when he goes to this new school and this counselor who turns out to be really important in his life, Mr. Armstrong, he's read his DSS

files that go back forever. And he says, well, one thing I can say about you, Demon, or Damon, is that you're resilient. And Demon says, are you going to give me drugs for that? He thinks it's another diagnosis. And in a way, it is. And I feel like I share that with Demon. I've been through some really bad times, bad situations, hard situations, and there's something in me that doesn't give up, that really thinks there's a way to get through

this. And furthermore, you know how the things that are easy for us, we wonder why they're hard for other people. I look around at other people and think, just get on it, right? Just deal. Stand up, start moving. Just deal. If you're mad, do something. I very much share that capacity. And I think that capacity in Demon is what makes him readable and maybe lovable. I'm very deliberate about this. I knew what I wanted to write about and where I wanted to take the reader. And it's not an easy place to go. It's a horrible, hard place to go. So I knew that most of all, you'd have to

love this kid so much. And he had to be a kid. That was the answer. I mean, I spent two years trying to just figure out how to crack into this story. And that was the answer. Let the kid tell the story because people will go there with a kid. He'll get your heart and you'll get in there. Yeah. Once he's an adult, he's at fault. Right. You look around with your judgment. Well, that person's made these choices and it's their fault. You get to see from the beginning how he didn't make any choices.

Right. He was given none. He just used the tools at hand. But yeah, it's that American meritocracy, isn't it? It's like if you're not in a good place, you must have done something to put yourself there. Right. not in a good place, you must have done something to put yourself there. Right.

Because if you were smart enough or hardworking enough, you'd be rich or a senator from Ohio. Or whatever. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. how did you get so knowledgeable on the addiction stuff because again also i'm an ex-opioid addict so this thing just was a bullseye for me it just really couldn't every single patient like okay good here we go i know this too i'm really sorry oh yeah i mean i know no but i mean i'm just saying, I'm sorry. I don't feel like I deserve that, but I appreciate you saying that. Well, it's a terrible, terrible disease. How do you familiarize yourself?

Well, let me also say as the reader, as his own issues start burbling up, I go, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want this. And then I go, yeah, of course, duh, there's no way. It would be such a fucking lie if he didn't. I know the comfort that comes. You're not going to not accept that comfort. And so I just hated it. And I was like, and it's the absolute truth.

You're not going to be the child of an addict with that kind of trauma kicked around in the foster care. You look at any one of these aces, he's in the eights and nines. He's got an 85% chance of becoming an addict at this point. Yeah. And by the time he's in the eights and nines he's got an 85 chance of becoming an addict at this point yeah and by the time he's a young teenager pretty much everybody he knows is using everybody and that's the truth and the other thing you nailed is these varying degrees where you can kind of go like well i'm not so bad because this person's doing this and everyone's kind of playing the same relative

game except the ones like poor dory who's just given given in. Junkies, like full on, yes, we're going to shoot dope. But there's this in-between sort of semi-functional, and it's such hard work. I mean, there are so many things that I wanted to help bring some compassion, because that was my starting point. I live in Southwest Virginia, which was targeted by Purdue Pharma, Lee County. Same setting as Dope Sick. Yeah. My older daughter is a mental health therapist and she works with teenagers. She's seen it all. And it was because of her work that I became aware. I mean, you can't not be aware. You were probably seeing it,

right? When you were living there, people nodding off in grocery stores. I still live there. No, I'm saying at the height of it, were you probably bumping up against it a lot? I mean, the height of it hasn't passed is the thing. Yeah, because it's a whole generation of these opioid orphans who are coming up through the system. And so among all of my friends and acquaintances where I live, I don't know a single family that hasn't lost somebody to overdose. I try to stay apolitical on here because who gives a shit? But I will say the only time I ever, ever, ever saw Trump misstep was when he made fun of Biden for having this. No, no.

He misstepped a ton. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, let me be very clear. I just want to be. No, no. He was right. He could shoot someone in the middle of the street and his base would still love him. That's what I'm saying.

He never violated the contract he had with his own base. With his people. Misstep with his people. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, yeah. The only time I ever saw it happen is when he made fun of Biden for having a son with an addiction. And that was the first time I felt the base go like, eh, slow down. Wait a minute.

And I was like, whoa, that's really telling about how pandemic this is. Yeah. And making fun of anybody else didn't do it, even prisoners of war or whatever. That didn't lose them, but that one people didn't like. And for people who are outside of the epidemic, I wanted to try to reach across that gulf, this failure of empathy. And I mean, I don't blame anybody. It's a brainwash. of empathy. And I mean, I don't blame anybody. It's a brainwash. It's been 50 years of the so-called war on drugs, literally taught kids in school that criminals use drugs, bad people use drugs,

lazy people use drugs, because you could just say no. And this indoctrination has left us with this cultural gulf between people who have been consumed by this disease and their families and the people who are lucky enough to be untouched and just blame the victims. And treating this disease as if it could be cured by incarceration, it's just sickening to those of us who live there. So I knew I wanted to bring people into this really hard life to show people how hard. I mean, laziness, it's really hard work to be an addict. There's a chapter that just takes you through his day, how hard it is to wake up and find your means and find your connect.

I've been my most creative. I've worked my hardest in pursuit of that. Yeah. Addiction is not for the lazy. No. That's really true. And once you have that disease, the only thing you can do is stay alive. Just do all the things you do every day to stay alive.

You're not chasing a high. Many people never were. Sounds like you had some help from your daughter. I did. She helped me to connect me with people I could talk with at DSS and the foster care system so I could learn how all that works. with at DSS and the foster care system so I could learn how all that works. But as far as really being inside the experience of addiction, I needed to go and just sit with people who would tell me their stories, and a lot of them. So I made friends with Dr. Art Van Zee, who runs a clinic in Lee County, who most of his practice is treating people in recovery.

He's been in a few of the docs. Yeah, exactly. In fact, I resisted watching Dope Sick for a good while because I didn't want to see these friends of mine being played by, you know, but I ultimately did and it was great. It's tremendous. It's tremendous. Yeah. And Beth Macy is a friend and I think she's done a wonderful job. Her next book is also really good, Raising Lazarus. It's about treatment and the gaps in the gulfs and how little help there is for people in our region. So I made friends with Dr. Van Z. I told him what I was doing, and he was very supportive.

And he said, let me send an email to my patients and see if I can get people to talk with you. And that worked out. And so I just spent hours and hours and hours sitting down with people who were wonderfully forthcoming. I didn't know what to expect. If you've not spent time in rooms of AA or NA, it'd probably knock you on your ass how honest people are, right? Well, how people want a hearing, you know, just want to talk about it and just saying, ask me anything, just to have a sympathetic ear.

Very, very helpful. There wasn't any format. I just usually would sit down with the person and say, this is what I'm doing. I'm not going to write about you. I will not tell anybody anything about you. I just want to know what your life has been like. The worst of it, the best of it, everything. How'd you get there?

How'd you get out? And just let the tape roll. What stunned me, even though I thought I knew a good deal, what stunned me is how many stories began with a prescription from the doc who said, set your clock, don't miss a pill. Because that's what Purdue told them. Right. The so-called studies that Purdue gave them that said, no, no, there's no way that this will be addictive. And so on doctor's orders, they took the pills on schedule, and when they got to the end of the bottle, they were addicted. And then 10 years of a life lost because of that.

You know, when I interview people, I would stop and say, and then how did that feel? And how did your head feel? And how did your stomach feel? And just, if you don't mind saying, what were the worst symptoms? How does it feel when you're dope sick? And everybody has a different description, but ultimately you get the picture of how that feels physically. Just putting myself in their position. So a lot of talking and every symptom just about that someone described, I thought, okay, I've had that. Usually from food poisoning. Usually from food poisoning.

Or combined, food poisoning, no sleep for four days, and a broken limb or something. Like put that all together. You did a great, great job. It just gave me so much compassion to imagine having that disease and having people spit on you and saying, why did you do that? Yeah. Another way to look down. The last thing I want to point out that seems impossible, you could have done it this well.

And I want to talk about the context. I'm curious how much thought went into this. What I really, really appreciated is i think there would have been a big temptation in our current society to handle the boys burgeoning adolescence and sexuality in a way of what should be versus what actually is and i think it was such an accurate portrayal of how fucking horny we are we're so horny and how preoccupied you are and how every conversation with every guy you ever have 80 of your brain power is in that zone for like four years and i was delighted that you didn't try to do a fucking self-actualized version of it or what society should be.

What would that have been? I don't even know. People would do it. I think people would be afraid to do what you did with the boy's sexuality. I think at this point in our history, I found that to be refreshingly brave. But that's where fiction can save you a little bit because you're not saying, you know,

what are they going to say? They're going to be like, well, that's a character. Did any of that cross your mind? No, it didn't. I just was going for authenticity. And once I got this character in my head, once he started talking to me, I don't want to say he took over because, I mean, I'm fully responsible for all of it.

I know this. Should we take that poll to her? Is it in the wrong study? Do you even know what I'm saying? Does that make any sense? Okay. Well, yeah, he was really horny. Honestly,

I'm going to tell you those sensations are not alien to teenage girls either. I don't think they're alien. No, I'm not suggesting that. No, teenage girls also can be preoccupied.

Yeah, yeah. But I think boys suffer physical blue ball suffering that they had and giving him that older girl that did the phone sex and tortured him. There's some suffering involved. Yeah, yeah. I guess what I was conscious of always is that I have to keep the reader on board with Demon. I can't have him lose his

audience. You really have to go there. So I thought that he could be as horny as he would really be and kind of as crude just because that's the language. But in his way, he's kind of a gentleman. When the girls are all putting underwear and stuff in his locker and he says, like, I don't want to come in at the end. I want to come in at the beginning of the car chase, not right before the car blows up. He wants the whole experience. Yeah, yeah. Or even when the prostitute is trying to steal. At the truck stop?

Yes, yes. And it's just like politely saying no. It's like, it's sweet. No, lady. I don't think so. I don't want to be Jay. No, thank you. You just nailed it for me.

It's actually in the language you embraced, which is I can see where a modern writer might think if I'm truthful about how they're talking, I'm going to lose audience. But it seems to me that you had a confidence that we would recognize it like, no, no, this is real. So you can bail, but it's kind of on you. This is the truth. He drops F-bombs every other sentence.

I suppose if there was one thing I thought about dialing back was his language. Actually, I did a little bit. Well, he's just so angry. Yeah. And he's got every reason to be. But in the first draft, because I revise a lot. I rewrite everything 100 times. Every sentence is rewritten over and over again.

So the first couple chapters I wrote, he was, believe it or not, even more pissed off than he is when you met him. And I realized I can't start there. I have to back up. You've got to earn all that. Get you on his side. And then you can see why he's so pissed off. But I think that I'd written 100 pages, and I just thought, well, I'll just do a search and see how many times he says the F word.

Yeah, yeah. It was 174. Okay. And I thought that might be a bit much. That's too a page. That's a bit much. Let's see if I can set the goal to get it below 100. Stephen, my husband, he's always my first reader, and he really responded.

He's a good reader, and he's an honest reader, and if something isn't working for him he'll say so he does read fiction but it's not his favorite thing to read so that makes him a good reader because if i have him i know i've got a reader but this i think that i gave him about 19 pages and we sat on the front porch and he read it and he said i love this guy and so that made me happy. Yeah. Also, does anything feel better than impressing your mate? I think we're past that point. Really? Well, we impress each other. What can I say? I mean, we both have, you know, we both have skills. It's so lovely. I think you can easily just be two human beings bumping into each other in the hallway. I don't know. I just think we both get up and impress each other every day. Yeah. That's a good life. Yeah. We

should celebrate that. That's pretty great life. Yeah. We should celebrate that. That's pretty great. Why I brought him up is the second thing he said is this is not going to get the AP literature course adoptions. The language is probably going to keep it out of high schools, but I can't worry about that. Yeah. Honestly, I write with nobody looking over my shoulder. You'd already come to that years ago. Years ago. Yeah. That's why you're successful. Yeah. already come to that years ago. Years ago.

Yeah, yeah. That's why you're successful, yeah. Well, is it? I don't know. You could also say that this is a recipe for failure. If you go to any writing conference, which I don't,

but I did for a while and I realized I don't belong here because it's all about marketing, marketing. What do people want? Yeah, what's working in the marketplace? You're very similar to Sedaris in that way. He just doesn't, he's like, I write for me and I don't care if people are mad or what they say.

It's what we were talking about an hour ago. Six hours ago. Yeah, six hours ago. The only thing I have is what I can say from this exact position in the universe that I inhabit. And so if I'm thinking about what people want from me, that's going to get pulled. It's like a point. I'm sitting on a point and I can't risk getting pulled off of it. So I really do write with nobody looking over my shoulder. I don't think that means that I'm completely oblivious to audience. I mean, I try to make things clear. I've tried to read some books. I won't name names, but there are great novels I've tried to read. And I just, I don't even know what he's talking about. And poetry.

I'm not that writer. I'm committed to accessibility. I want to be understood. I don't want readers to have to work so hard. I would imagine once you've got stuff and you're going through your rewrite process, you are rightly going, what price do I pay for this? And what thing do I value the most in this moment? If I'm going to devalue the thing I'm trying hardest to do, because I want to do this little thing that I want to do, I'm not going to prioritize the little thing I want to do.

But not in any way that would be untrue to yourself. You would just recognize the balances. Well, it's really more about, Stephen, as a reader, calls it bringing up the lights. He'll say, I think you need to bring up the lights on this scene. I don't know exactly what's going on. Because it's all so abundantly clear to me. Of course. You know, that's the best thing I think other readers can do for you is tell you when you're overstating or understating. That's smart.

I just had this experience where I was reading something out loud to the girls and my wife that I had written. And there was just one little throwaway line for me. It was about when I was a little kid and this boy I became friends with in my neighborhood and how he looked at your face and it didn't really feel like he was looking at your eyes and this and that. And then later, Kristen was like, so he was autistic? And I was like, no, he wasn't autistic.

And I was like, oh, okay. so that really makes you think he's. So I need to relay the same thing that was happening, but in a way that's probably less modern. Yeah. That makes you think immediately the boy was autistic. Yeah, that's the best of what readers can do for you is just say whatever's clear in your head here isn't being made clear in mine. Right. Yeah, and that's easy mistakes to make. It's not even a mistake.

It's kind of a titration, to use a chemical word, because readers have different levels of acuity, different levels of attention. There are the readers that will read the book four times or eight times, and then there are the readers that are only mildly attentive. So you're trying to reach a medium here. The bell curve of it. Yeah, exactly. And so that's one of the wonderful things about revision. You can keep honing it until everybody gets something and the readers that are really giving you a lot will get a lot back. So there's like always more. I hope you're putting me in that latter category.

Of course, of course. Who's Barbara Kingsolver? I hope you're putting me in that latter category. Of course. Who's Barbara Kingsolver? But yeah, I like to write books that will be enjoyed on a second reading. Just like your favorite films, you want to watch them again because you know there's going to be stuff in there you missed the first time. And then how do you know when you're done? The editor says, it's time.

Okay. It's very hard for me. I could still be writing my first novel. I'm a perfectionist. I have that disease. I revise and revise and revise. You can feel when you get to a point of diminishing returns. Okay, I've revised this whole manuscript and I changed a bunch of words and then changed them back. You know, when you get to that point where you kind of feel like you're there.

And I'm really pretty good at meeting deadlines. But when I turn in a book, it's exactly the book I want it to be, which is why I don't read reviews because I'm not the audience. This book is done. As far as I'm concerned, it's exactly what I wanted. My experience with it is over. Right. And so whatever strengths or weaknesses other people might find in it, that's... Well, this one really went your way.

This one really went your way. Actually, there were some people, I don't read them, but I get told. My UK editor was really mad because one of the big UK papers accused me of writing about a place she's never been. And I live, I fucking live there. These are my people. So it just makes you realize that it's noise. Well, Barbara, this was a blast. I feel very, very, very lucky to have gotten to talk to you

about my favorite book. This has been so fun. Thank you for your support of the book. And thanks for talking to all your friends about it. Of course. I hope you'll trick me again. I mean, that was the best trick. When Monica broke it to me that it was in fact a woman and she was not a teenage boy. Well, did you listen to the book? I listened to the book.

I see. So you didn't see that. I'm dyslexic. So I read so slow. Most of the books, 99% of them I listen to. That's fantastic. And so, yeah, I'm never holding the book. And so you don't see the author photo. There is my face right there on the back. I don't see the- Your name on the front. Your name's there, but it's like, I'm in the chapters right away. Yeah. And you were listening to Charlie Thurston, not me. I usually read my audio books. My publisher lets me do that. I like to do it. I like going into the studio and

it's my one acting gig every two or three years. Yeah, it's the Meryl Streep thing, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Her or me, one or the other. But it's kind of a catharsis for me because I've had these characters talking to me in my head for years and to get in the studio and replicate them and get their accents and everything as perfect as I can. I feel like it's a value added product that I'm giving my readers. But in this case, the one thing I cannot be is a boy. And so I auditioned several readers and I picked him and I was really happy he was available to do it. But that's another reason you could easily have thought that it was a male. It didn't help was a male writer. It didn't help. Yeah. It didn't help.

But interestingly, I did not think the voice actor was the author. Yeah. I didn't go that far. Well, you know that. I mean, you're in the industry. It's too good. This is a professional. Yeah.

Oh, well, thank you so much for coming in person. This was such a blast, and I really can't wait to read the next thing you write. Okay. Get going. I'll be on my way. Thanks a lot for having me. This was fun. I like your space here.

Thank you so much. We do too. Keep it cozy. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's comfy. Heavy on the knickknacks. Heavy, heavy on the knickknacks.

Well, if I had my own Wheaties box, I would display it. Try to hide it a little bit. You should have your own Wheaties box. We should get on top of that. I'm going to talk to the folks at General Mills. Yeah, right? The Pulitzer, eh. Yeah, exactly.

All right, well, be well, and I can't wait to see you again. Next up is the fact check. I don't even care about facts. I just want to get into your pants. Did you wash your hair today? No. Does it look clean? It looks like it's mildly damp, like you just...

Yeah, that's the opposite, that it's like oily. Well, I don't know about oily. It just looks very straight, like it's still really wet. I'm using new hair products. Oh, what kind? They're so good. Like it's really wet. I'm using new hair products. Oh, what kind? They're so good. This is a shout out. This is a little bit of an Easter egg because look, we're in November.

Okay. And you know what's approaching. I've been waiting to see if you're even going to address it because you don't like doing it. Even though it's so wildly successful. I love doing it after I've done it. There you go. all right i hate to write i'd love to have written that's right because this is dual my gift guide my gift guy we're talking about my gift guide obviously third annual gift guy congratulations and it's tricky because it's two things at once. It's me recommending products. Right. And then also me writing about them in a way that feels fun to me. Yes. Which is thus far, you've done two very

bang them up jobs. Thank you. Like I actually, as you know, I use the gift. I buy everything that's on the gift guide. So I wait patiently or impatiently for them. But then also as a performance piece, it's a 10. Thank you. Yeah. The writing's off the charts. Thanks. I do enjoy it, but I care about both missions. And so it's a little bit of a burden because I care. That's right. You want to make sure you- I want to deliver. Yeah. Maintain the high bar you've set for yourself. This is probably an Easter egg. I'm not sure yet, but I'm considering putting this on the gift guide.

Oh, wow. So then do you want to withhold the product name? What do you want to do here? No, I'm going to say it. Okay, okay, yeah. Rose Hair Line is incredible. It's spelled R-O-Z. R-O-Z, no E.

No, because... So Roz. But it Rose. Okay, but Roz. Nope, because Mara Rozak is a hairstylist out here. My friend's wife. No way.

Yeah, Taylor that is in Local Natives that played our live show. Is married to Mara? Yeah. Oh, wow. I'm learning so much. So excited now, right? How fun.

Well, I've met her once, and she's the sweetest, nicest. Oh, she's sweet. Okay. And she's very prolific. Okay. I mean, she has a lot of fancy clients? Yes. It's Kate Mara's best friend.

Yes. Yes. Oh, yeah. Ding, ding, ding. Kate Mara's best friend, Yes. Mara. Yes. Oh, yeah. Ding, ding, ding. Kate Mara's best friend who we did talk about here because we thought that was impossible

that her best friend's name was Mara. Right. Turns out Mara's in my orbit. Mara is very good friends with Sally Christensen from Argent, the suit company

that I love and endorse. It's a tiny little web you find yourself in. My God. It's such a sim. It is. There's seven characters. Right you find yourself in. My God, it's such a sim. It is. There's seven characters. Right.

So I met Mara via Sally. She was wonderful, but I had already at that time started using her new hairline. Prior to meeting her. Yeah, and so obviously I was a big fangirl. Uh-huh. Because it's so good.

There's a couple products. There's a hair oil. I really do like how much you like. Products? Well, yeah, products, but by extension, people. Like I know you're over celebrity sightings, but you also still get, you get so amped up about certain people, which is still endearing and adorable, which I like. I do. Oh, yeah, this hair.

She makes this hair product. Like she's married to, like the excitement. I know, but it's really kind of cute. She makes this hair product. She's married to... That's exciting. I know, but it's really kind of cute. Hair products, as you know, you should know, that work well with your hair are hard to come by in this world. I only use one thing, yeah.

Exactly. When you find your thing... Here's the problem with Amazon. I used to know all my brands. Like in junior high, Aquanet, Extra, Firm Hold, Extra Super. It had like three expletives about how firm the hold was. And it was.

I had a seven, eight-inch spike, and it didn't go anywhere all day. But I knew all my products. I liked the Paul Mitchell gel. I liked this Aquanet. And it came in like a 70-ounce aerosol, too. Ozone be gone. Yeah. Because of Amazon, I go to past orders, and I type in hair, and then it brings up the one I like that I've ordered before.

Oh, that's great. So I don't ever remember. I think it might be a Paul Mitchell product I'm using. Oh, okay. That's kind of a creme I use in my hair. Yeah, your hair looks lovely. But I don't know what it is. I wonder if we could get Mara in.

To spruce it up a little bit. Just do a little something. Dance it up. Yeah. Yeah, no, when people have created something I care deeply about or I admire, oh yeah, I love it. Yeah, yeah. Love to see it.

Like you like the row, which is great. Like? Yeah, I love it. Yeah, yeah. Love to see it. Like, you like The Row, which is great. Like? Yeah, it's a great brand. I love. But then you, and you didn't have any interest in her as a celebrity before that, but now you've elevated her to almost deity. Them, Mary-Kate and Ashley. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess I go straight to Ashley, of course.

I know, understandably. Ego-centric. No, it makes sense. Okay, they were my first—I had a Michelle doll. Okay. From Full House. That's their name? Yeah, Michelle.

I had a Michelle doll, so I always had an affinity for them. Right. But, no, I could care less. Right. Until the road. Yes, it's interesting. I like it. Oh, no, you're taking off your David Beckham sweater?

It's too hot in here, and I know if I turn on the air, you'll be very cold. You can. Let's go down a layer. We'll start here. That'll be step one. And then if I continue to svets, I'll have to— Wow, we have so many things left up in the air. Okay, tying up some—

Yes, let's weave them all together now. One is Mara's hair care is incredible. Rose. R-O-Z. Yep. Which spells Roz, but we'll— Can you just be respectful?

But there's like an accent on the O, so I think that's what... Oh, that's what makes it the long O. That gets us to Rose. Yeah. Okay, then I stand corrected.

Okay, so she... So it's a hair oil, and then there's... What you do is you put the hair oil in before you shower, and you just let that sit for like 10 to 12 minutes,

maybe 20. And then you shower, you use the shampoo and the conditioner. Okay. Then after you damp it dry, towel damp dry. I have a tip. Dab it dry? Is that what you mean? Damp it dry. Make it damp. Okay. You get the towel wet and then rub it on your head. Well, you don't make, no, no, no. Your hair's dripping wet. Yes. And you dab it with the towel. Well, I wouldn't say dab. You like-

You would say damp because that's what you said. You squeeze out the water, but you don't want to squeeze it out too much. It's very, it's damping it. Yeah. Okay, great. It's a word. Okay. I have a trick for that that I learned from some video.

I use, I do a towel real quick on it. All right. Just like a quick squeeze. And then I take a paper towel. Okay. And dab it like it's a greasy pizza? I damp it. No, you don't do it like that.

I know what you're thinking. You're talking about like patting it. Patting, yeah. No, you take the paper towel and you like scrunch the hair. Okay, great. With the paper towel. Then it's damped. Okay.

Okay? And then you use a little, she has this milk, hair milk. Oh, wow. And this other little other oil. And I mix those small amount. Then I put it in my hair. And then it looks good. Wow, so many steps.

I know. It's a real project. It looks great. And I have a few other friends who are using it, and they love it. Satisfied customers. Would you agree that if you were someone who washed your hair every day this would be too much to do daily five steps i don't though and you don't have to if you use rose okay and you're once every three to four days on a hair wash yeah pretty much sometimes what's the longest we'll go

seven eight days uh longest we're depressed the sky's gloomy. Where are we at? I'm sad. Two months. No, God, no. I mean, probably a week is the longest I'll know. Okay, all right. I think. Yeah, because it does start to get oily. Start keeping a hair journal, and then we'll know next year. Oh, speaking of, I gave you homework. I wonder if you did it.

Oh, fuck. Okay, well, I'll give you another week. What was the homework again? Five favorite podcast episodes of all time. Oh, fuck. Blame. That's still number one. We already know.

You already established that. Now we need two, three, four, and five. I hope that every armchair has found their way over to Stereolab to listen to. Radiolab. Radiolab. That's an old favorite band of mine, Stereolab. Really great band. Fuck.

This happens on top. This happened with Fred when he reminded me of Tortoise. And then I get depressed that I forget about my favorite bands. That I don't listen to them for years and actually I get a pang of guilt. You do? Yeah, like I'm not being faithful to them. And Stereolab is such a great band. You don't have to feel guilty.

You can reframe it as you're excited to find it again. Okay. Would you want to hear one second of Stereo Lab just so you can get a flavor for what it is? Because it's very, very novel, original music, okay? Okay. Are there words in these songs? Yeah. Okay.

It sounds French. Yeah. I like it. It's very French. They're incredible. How original is that song? Yeah. I like it. It's very French. They're incredible. How original is that song? Yeah, I like that. Did you ever have a stereo lab phase, Wob? Yeah, I like them.

Did you know the lead singer's name is Mary Hansen? Oh, here we go. No, I did not know that. And who is she married to, Rob? One of your aunts? Is she connected to Mara? Well, she still could be. She died in 2002.

Oh. I'm sorry. I just meant Tom Hanson, Mary Hanson. Jesus, wait. Does Singer died? Backing and lead vocals. I mean, there's another lead. I was mostly connecting to Hanson last name.

Yeah. 94, 96, 97, 99. It doesn't appear that they have anything recent. Well, she's passed. Maybe she passed because... I stopped listening. It looks like they became active in 2019 again. Oh, wonderful.

It took a 10-year break. It sounds like you do have some stuff to feel guilty about. I always do. Yeah, it doesn't take me long to remember. No, you can reframe it. And, like, I can reframe. Okay, do you want me to get you a Stereolab T vintage? Yeah, of course.

Okay. I would love that. I'm going to look into it because you know I like vintage T-shirts. What can I get you for Christmas? I'm so bad at this. Let's go right to the horse's ass. I'll think about it. Okay.

Now this shirt, this is similar to your Stereolab story. Okay. I was in New York with Molly, obviously. We've talked about it. And then Pim because you just were in New York. Okay. I was in New York with Molly, obviously. We've talked about it. And then, pin, because you just were in New York. Yes, I was. And we stopped into this vintage store. Mm-hmm.

Vintage tea store. And it looked like it was not going to be my style. Right. But then he had all these Gumby shirts. Sure. Gumby's, which I had forgotten until I saw these shirts, and it was so exciting for me. Gumby's was a pizza place in Athens. Oh, wow.

And they had pokey sticks. And were they stealing the actual intellectual property of Gumby? Yeah. Was he there? He was there. Okay, yeah. There's no way they had a license. Was he there? He was there. Okay, yeah. There's no way they had like a license for that. I think he was there.

Okay. And he, well, I mean, they had pokey sticks. So they were obviously playing on this. Yeah. But I didn't even know about Gumby really. Right, because that was very early Saturday Night Live. Yeah, I didn't know. I just knew the pizza.

And we were obsessed with Gumby's. It was like our, it was our spot. It was a, last night it was a CNBC. Uh-huh, CNBC. And we have such nostalgic memories. My group has such nostalgic memories. I'm now, I'm now, yeah. So, okay, I think I'm conflating some things.

So there was, Mr. Bill was a character on Saturday Night Live. But also, Eddie Murphy would play Gumby. Oh, really? He played black Gumby. So he swore and stuff. Right. It was great. Right.

I had an inflatable Gumby that was six feet tall when I was in junior high. Oh. And I used to fight it nonstop. I would punch it and wrestle it. And my mom, for some reason, was very entertained. Oh. Because I would build up the fight. What? I'd start talking to Gumby. What did you say? And then I would run and wrestle it. And my mom, for some reason, was very entertained. Oh. Because I would build up the fight. What?

I'd start talking to Gumby. What did you say? And then I would run and tackle him. Oh, wow. And there's a whole show I would do. Yeah. But maybe Gumby was a straight-up character outside of SNL. Yeah, I didn't know there was an SNL connection.

Yeah. That's also sim because I bought an SNL shirt also. Oh, my God. Jesus. It's crazy. Can't even talk anymore with how many sims. We're getting very close to short-cir shirt also. Oh my God. Jesus. It's crazy. Can't even talk anymore with how many zips. We're getting very close

to short-circuiting. Yeah. So, yeah, Gumby's is very nostalgic for me and so I bought this Gumby shirt. I can't see it at all. Your hair, your beautifully conditioned

and oiled hair. It's Gumby in the Olympics. Oh, Gumby goes for gold. Yeah. I found out why they can use the character. So when Gumby's creator, Art Clokey, came through Gainesville on a college speaking tour, they threw him a party and the founder said he had such a good time

that he granted them the national rights to Gumby's and Pokey's names for 100 years. Wow. Wait, what year was that? 1986. Well, because they closed Gumby's. Yeah, didn't make it. Maybe you can bring it back. We have to stand out there and educate everyone on what Gumby's are.

Okay, so here's the thing about Gumby. A lot of you might think he's from Saturday Night Live. Kind of, but— I don't think anyone at this age is going to have any questions. I didn't even have any questions. You didn't. I thought it was a pizza boy. Oh, okay.

But what about someone out front, like giving a 30 minute lecture on what it is you're about to. That could be fun. And the chair is like, please sit down before you enter the store so you understand the full context of what we're trying to do here. Yeah, I don't know if I'm going to be used. Well, that's interesting. The pizza was so good. The pokey sticks were so good. And I miss it. Yeah, I'm not fine with it. Well, that's interesting. The pizza was so good. The pokey sticks were so good. And I miss it.

Yeah, I bet. And also it's gone, so people can't have it. If we had our wishes, I would go eat at Flaky Jake's and you'd go eat at Gumby's. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I want to talk about something. Why?

Did we leave so many? It's a disaster. I think we have so much stuff to go through. We got to just keep storming ahead. Part of this is your fault. When you go away, we have too much to talk about. I agree. I know.

My apologies. You went to New York. Went to New York. Very early flight. 7 a.m. on Thursday. And if I can do a little light complaining. I don't mind when things are delayed when it's the afternoon but if you wake up I woke up at 4 a.m to journal and meditate to get in the car at

5 a.m to get to LAX at 6 a.m to be on the phone and then we didn't take off till 9 no yes and I was like no that is I put in the I did all the crappy stuff. Yeah. So I was struggling a little bit when we started going down the runway at 9 a.m. I looked. Were you on the plane for two hours or was it delayed? A good hour. Yeah, it had to be. I think for some reason boarding, they didn't shut the door until 7.45. Oh, my God.

And then by the time we were going down the runway, it was 9. Yeah. Yikes. I want to say he claimed that there was a stalled aircraft at JFK on the runway. Like they were delaying people from even going there maybe. But whatever the case is. Flight was fine. But what happened is when we landed then, originally when we were supposed to land, we were going to have time to go to the hotel.

Yeah. Get a bite to eat. And then Kristen would go to a musical on her own. Got it. And I would watch, I don't know what I would do. Can you remember what I did? But we landed so late that then the cab ride was like, she had to be at the play in an hour and 40 minutes. And then we were going to go to drop me off at the hotel first. Her play place obviously in in midtown yeah and we're downtown yes and then the better something of my angel better angels

of my character nature nature i was like let's drop you off first and i'll bring all the bags that was nice of you and and smart and it's 5 p.m on a thursday in manhattan so basically got on that flight at 6 20 a.m and the long flight then the cab ride was like two and a half no from the time we got in at jfk to the time i got out at the hotel i was like oh I've been for 12 hours sitting kind of confined and not able to move around and do my own thing. I hate that cab ride. Imagine going to Midtown first. I'm giving you credit that adding anything, it sounds unbearable because I hardly can stand that. Yeah, it's not great. And then when she got out and then i decided to google maps it myself and then i saw it was gonna be like 57 minutes to get done i was like oh my

god and i couldn't get out and take the subway at that point i had all the bags and shit yeah anyways got into the hotel lovely hotel what i do thursday night oh i immediately text vincent d'onofrio because he lived down in that same area where we were staying. First, I said, are you at home? Because I was going to meet him at Emily Brooklyn, maybe, because he lives in Brooklyn. He said, no, I'm in Michigan. So I was in his birthplace and he was in my birthplace. How lovely.

But then he told me to go to Bubby's. Have you been to Bubby's? Yes, many times. Oh, you have? You know all about Bubby's? Yeah, Bubby's is great. Bubby's. So he said to go to Bubby's. Have you been to Bubby's? Yes, many times. Oh, you have? You know all about Bubby's? Yeah, Bubby's is great. Bubby's. So he said to go to Bubby's. I went to Bubby's and I loved it. And people watching in New York and I love it so much. And I sat by myself and just stared at people and watched all. Oh, I just love it. Looking out the window. Was it crisp? What was the weather

like? Yeah, it was perfect. It was like high 50s. Nice. Yeah, perfect. You know, I had my piece. I was wearing my piece the whole time. To both pieces? Just the hoodie, zipper hoodie. And I brought some sweaters to look like Beckham.

Great. Oh, I know. Easter egg. We interviewed Jedediah Jenkins. Yes, upcoming. Great episode. He recommended couples therapy. Oh, right.

I know I need to start it. Well, by luck, it was on the airplane ride to JFK. So Chris and I started it. And then when she got back from her play, we then watched a couple episodes. It's so good. Oh, I'm so excited. Oh, my God. I love it.

It's a great recommendation. Then Friday, we went to Bubbyby's in the morning we worked out we went to bubby's we were trying to keep it light because we had a 5 p.m reservation at manhattan emily okay and so we just had kept a real light at bubby's that time but then we went at five immediately saw an arm cherry with her mom who was on vacation who was there because we suggested it so that was really cute and she was so sweet and then i went in gutenberg which is josh gad and andrew rannells and uh these two are insane i had by the way i've only seen five musicals in my life and now two of them are with these two guys and they're insane together they have such good chemistry and then

christian gets on stage at the end they do special guests of that show that's right at the very end and um you know what an ovation she got it was so sweet because i know and you know some part of her heart is broke that she didn't stay and do broadway for a long time or that she's not returned to do broadway yeah I know that's a big thing for her. Yeah, she will. Yeah. But for her to get on stage and the level of excitement people had for her being there made me feel so good for her.

Like, oh, you deserve this girl. You weren't there, but you are loved there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. She's a huge part of that community. Get home that night from the play, and I ordered Emily Burger. Wow. It had just been there, 5 p.m.

Wow. Ordered now gluten-free pizza and a whole round, pigged out, slept late. First night I was there, I slept 11 and a half hours. Wow. Which was really, really helpful. Good. Because of the very early morning, blah, blah, blah. And then she went to another play.

I started watching F1. We went to Emily Brooklyn on Saturday. That was wonderful. Yeah. We pigged out again, then walked around Manhattan for a couple hours. We walked like six miles. And then on the way back, I was like, I could go for Bubbies again. Went back into Bubbies.

So now in one, yeah, you see the pattern. Anyways, ate at Bubbies four times in three days. Ate at Emily Burger three times in three days. That's great. And that's pretty much the trip. It's wonderful. Yeah, it was fun. Sounds great. Yeah. I thought about this because you posted that.

I was like, wow, that's so fun. You have your staples. You're going. It's very me. You have your staples, you're going. It's very me. It is. It is. And... If I find something I like, I just want what I like over and over again. I know.

It's interesting. Yeah. Because I... You have a much more, like, you feel like you're missing out on meals if you were to go back. Exactly. But I do have both. Like, I have the same issue in that if I love it, I want it. Like when I got home from New York, I was like, when am I going to have Thai diner again ever?

Like I had to, I panic. Yes. But I can't go twice. I can't, although I did go twice to a breakfast place last time, but that's so rare. The other thing was I went the first night was for dinner and I noticed that that they had gluten-free pancakes but when I went back the next morning I couldn't eat gluten-free pancakes because we were eating at Emily Burger in two and a half hours so we had made a pack to keep it light so I just had eggs no breads so now I still need the gluten-free

pancakes so I still got to go back so I'm getting something different every time that I've seen on the menu that I also want to try. Yeah. So it is somewhat I'm getting new stuff. But I understand. It's hard. It was great, though. What a city. What a city.

What a city. I was thinking about it. I was like, how many Broadway theaters are there? Kristen guessed 15, she thought, around. I'm like, what's the average cast size? Like 10, 15? Oh, more than that. If they're musicals, they're big casts. thought around i'm like what's the average cast size like 10 15 so if you think about that if they're musicals they're big casts yeah and then like this one that we just saw uh gutenberg this

is two people so there's like a handful of counting like off broadway because no okay so just broadway i was thinking you know for as enormous of an industry it is and how much space it occupies in our culture, you're really looking at maybe 300 people are employed at any given time doing that job, which is very small. Right. And I saw many people on the subway because that's another thing. We rode the subway everywhere, which was really, really fun. Best people watching. Imaginable. Last thought on New York.

I'm reminded that when you're in New York, you just have to live out loud. You're seated so close to everybody when you eat. You're literally touching shoulders every time you eat a meal. So you're hearing everything they say. They're hearing everything we say. And so goes the subway and everywhere else. And you just, what are you going to not live your life? You got to just talk. So you're over, I was overhearing the most thrilling conversations. Intimate stuff. And that's just, it's a voyeurist paradise. I guess that's what I, my summation. It's so fun. Anyways, back to the, what I saw on the subway, I saw a few different groups of people that were actors talking about the stage. And I thought, man, there's only 300 jobs. There's all these people in all these schools.

Yeah. It's tough. It's hard. It's so hard. Yeah. Well, fun. What was your weekend like? One thing I wanted to bring up, which was interesting.

It came up twice in the weekend. On Thursday morning, I was interviewed for something, which was very cool. A podcast or an article? An article. Okay. It was very cool. A podcast or an article? An article. Okay. It was very flattering to be asked. And it was very thoughtful. And, you know, who knows how it will turn out.

But it was funny because I've declared it here. And this is how true it is. I don't look at stuff. I don't read comments. I don't look into what people are saying about me. And it was reiterated that that is the smart decision for me because in doing this, she kind of brought up a couple things that people say. Oh, boy. And she wasn't saying it to be mean.

She was kind of saying, like, it's sort of crazy that they say this and kind of like, what do I say to that, sort of. And I was like, huh, well, I didn't know that. Right, right, right. Oh, geez. That's got to sit you in a bad space for a minute during the interview. It was interesting. It was interesting. What did she say they said?

Yes. What did she say they said? Yes. So I guess a thing that people say is, well, a lot of like, why aren't you talking more? Or what does she add? Oh, oh. Type of thing. Or like, no, no, no, not what does she add?

Something about me not knowing as much as you. And I was like, well, of course I don't. I'm not doing the same thing. I'm not there to do the same thing he's doing. Yeah, yeah. I thought that was very clear. Right, right, right. But maybe it's not to some people who care. I mean, I really, really don't care, but it did make me think, oh, there's stuff being said that I just don't know about and happily, and I'm just so

happy to continue to not know. Yes yes as someone who reads all the comments I will say she's shining a light on something that's less than 0.1 percent just however you need to file that in your head it's not like there's some what she said is any kind of consensus or even one percent of comments yeah she said something about like about being smart people say i'm not and i and that was i've never read that i don't remember i i this is all like you know i'm hearing i'm i'm hearing it all at once and so i'm not sure if i'm saying this correctly adding some things of your own probably yeah i know i'm smart right like the one it's one of the only things i know about myself you don't have that insecurity i really. I really don't. Right.

So it was interesting to hear because I was like, oh, oh, they're just wrong. That should inform all. Right. Yeah. And you should reverse engineer from that, that exact same thing. Mm-hmm. No, I know. For someone to say that is as relevant as anything else that's being said.

Yeah. So that happened. Mm-hmm. And that was Thursday. On Saturday, we get an email. From Adam. From Adam. Kirsch. Our publicist. And that was Thursday. On Saturday, we get an email. From Adam. From Adam. Kirsch.

Our publicist. And he sent this. He said, this is a nice article. He sent it. And it was a opinion piece in vogue, which I could not wrap my head around. Couldn't be more perfect for you. Oh, my God. Yeah.

A really sweet, lovely piece. Very beautiful. And I want to applaud her as well. What was the? Her name is Lucy. Lucy. I want to applaud her because I think what's very tempting for people, if they write something pro Monica, there's this inclination to pit us against each other. I've seen this before.

Yes. It's like if something's with you, then it's related to me. And I never, I'm always like celebrate Monica. I don't know why. Yeah. But Lucy was very, very generous about, I just think she was very accurate about what the whole thing is. There was no positioning you or I against each other, which I liked. No.

It was a very flattering celebration of you don't have to talk all the time. Right. Basically me. Acknowledging. There's a genius in talking when you should and when you shouldn't. Yeah. That was really lovely. But it was also, you know, there's a line in it where she said the reason she thought to do this is because she was talking about the show with someone and someone said,

who even is Monica? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, wow, this is two things a couple days apart that are reiterating sort of the same thing. Yeah. It was funny because when I was editing this episode of Barbara Kingsolver. Oh, Babs. Speaking of, I think my favorite episode of the year.

Really? Yeah, I really do. Wow, that's great. I can't wait to hear it. I just love her. She's so awesome. She said that when she finishes a book, she's done with the book. Like she doesn't read reviews and it doesn't really matter to her what people say because she knows she did what she wanted to do.

Yes. She's done with it. And I felt like that. I was like, yeah, that's sort of how I feel. Like it's weird to start hearing pokes because I like what we're doing and I like the role I'm in. Well, it'd be one thing to me making these accusations if we were like a football team with a record of zero and 12. You start looking around for what's broken, but there's nothing broken. Like our show's doing as well as it's ever done and nothing's broken.

Well, and also we're not a show where me and you are hosting equally. That's not the point of it. That was never the point of it. Right, right. And still not. And so I feel that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing correctly. And I like what we put out. Well, listen, I read the thing as well. The article.

The article. And it was great. And I saw that line as well. And I then naturally didn't want you to read that line. Oh, yeah. I felt protective of you. And then it set me out. I spent a little while thinking about it afterwards.

I really think I've isolated what's happening, if you're interested. Yeah. Like, no one's triggered by Michael Jordan. They see Michael Jordan and they go, oh, my God, this guy dedicated every waking hour of his life to be as good as he was. No illusion that I could be Michael Jordan. I think when things get tricky is when people see someone like Paris Hilton and they're like, well, wait, I can do that. Like she doesn't do anything. So I could do that.

And they're resentful at her because, well, fuck, if she's got millions of dollars, I should too because I can do nothing as well. So I think what's tricky for people is whether they were fans of mine or not, they've at least known I've been around for 20 years on TV doing stuff. So if I have a podcast, they don't go, well, I should too. They go, oh, he was. The celebrity. He's been doing this for 20 years and I've been aware of it. Now, when they see you and they're just meeting you for the first time, they go, well, fuck, I guess I could have been the babysitter. Totally.

Right. And they're willfully ignoring how incredibly funny you are, how intelligent you are, how much you worked on your writing and how beneficial that was to everything we did. They're not choosing to do that. You're a brand new person to them that they find out has the house across the street from us. And I think that's what it is. They're like, well, wait, why does she have all that? You know, you're more relatable,

which in turn makes them mad at you, which is so interesting. Right, which is also why the show works too. Exactly. I know that. I thought the same. When I thought about it, I thought the same thing. I was like, oh, it's because they think they could be me.

And so why did it get to be me? Exactly. I guess, and I don't know where this confidence comes from because my confidence is so fleeting and it's in and out in so many ways. I just know they're wrong. Like, I know. Your value to the show.

I really do. And I know that this show would not be this show. No. It would be a different show. I don't know what it would be, but it would not be this show that's working so well. I'd probably be throwing bologna slices at women's asses. I don't know what you'd be doing, but it would be not this. It would not have this fingerprint.

It would not. We have a bunch of shows on this network. None of them are this show. They're all great and none of them are this. And that is that. There's a symmetry between you and I. Yes. That is greater than the sum of our parts.

Yes. And so, sorry if you're one of those people, and I don't think most people listening to the fact are in line with the who is Monica. But if you're one of those people, and I don't think most people listening to the fact check are in line with the who is Monica. But if you are... Now, look, they would hate something else about you. I'll just be clear. Let's say that you had been on three TV shows, and then we had this thing, and then it was a big success.

They wouldn't have that issue, but it would move to another issue. Oh, of course. Yeah, yeah. Of course, yes. But, you know, I just know that's wrong. And not in a, I know it's wrong. I really have to convince issue. Oh, of course. Yeah, yeah. Of course, yes. But, you know, I just know that's wrong. And not in a, I know it's wrong.

I really have to convince myself. I know in my bones it is. Yeah. I also know what I do for the show that no one knows that I do. So that helps too.

So anyway, I just thought it was interesting. Mm-hmm. But a beautiful article. I hope everyone reads it. Really, really sweet article. And yeah. So that was part of my weekend what else um we don't need to get too into it we talked about it a little bit on sync i went on two dates two with two different people where'd you go? To dinners? No, drinks both times. Drinks both times. Mm-hmm.

And they were both great. Great. Mm-hmm. Do you have a favorite? No. Okay. I'm just in an information gathering period. Sure, sure, sure. I'm not trying to overthink anything, which was fun.

Congrats. Thanks. You're going to have to reverse engineer your 2023 resolutions list. Do you ever do something? You have a to-do list and then you do an added thing so you write it on your list afterwards. Do you ever do that? No. I do that.

It's so petty. So that you can cross it off. Yeah, I was like, I had to do all this stuff, but then I stopped and used the leaf blower. I'll add. I get that. Yeah. I get the impulse. So similarly, you can now go back and go like, go on X amount of dates.

Go on two dates. In 2023. Yes. You can put that on there now, posthumously. Okay, so we have some facts. Okay, from Barbara. So Meryl Streep, it was crazy. Nuts.

But the first time we both had it at the same time. I never have it. Right. You're always looking for it. But this was so und both had it at the same time. I never have it. Right. You're always looking for it. But this was so undeniable. It just popped off the page, if you will. It really did, in keeping with her work. Okay.

She mentioned The Golden Notebook, which was one of her favorite authors early on. You asked what some influences were. That was one of my sadnesses, is we had no overlap of our favorite books you always want i always want that you have the same favorite books as someone i admire or it's that maybe you'll like some of these other books i'm also excited to explore the ones she likes yes yes so doris lessing is uh was an author she mentioned she was talking about very progressive things for the time you ask the time. The Golden Notebook was written in 1962. Okay.

She said 50s, 60s, and that's accurate. 13 years before I was here. Fast math. She said her dad read her Robert Burns poem about a louse, and she started- Reciting it? Yeah. And so-

You found it? I found it. Are you going to read it? Is it a long one or a short one? Okay. So there's two allows on seeing one on a lady's bonnet at church. Oh, okay. Okay. 1786 Scott's language poem. Oh boy. By Robert Burns in his favorite meter standard happy. Okay. Oh wait, this is just the final verse. Give us the Standard happy. Okay. Oh, wait. This is just the final verse. Give us the final verse. Okay. Oh, wad some power the gifty gee us. To see ours. Oh, my God.

This got her horny for literature. This seems impossible. This would be a rap on literature for me. Well, she did say some crazy stuff. And I was like, what is she talking about? But this now makes sense. To see ourselves as others see us. It wad frey mony a blunder freest.

It's not even English. And foolish notion. What airs in dress and gate wad leas an evan devotion. Okay. That's the original. Now, standard English translation. Okay. This is translated now.

Oh, would some power the gift give us to see ourselves as others see us. It would for many a blunder free us and foolish notion. What airs in dress and gate would leave us an even devotion. I love that, actually. I barely understand it. I just barely can hang on. It's kind of exactly what we've been talking about this whole time for six years. It's self-awareness, knowing how other people see you, right?

If only we could see ourselves the way others do. I can because I have a mirror. They didn't have mirrors since 1480. No, they didn't. Yeah, this is like basically an ode to a mirror. Okay, it also says, see also. So this was to a louse. This is to a mouse.

Oh, whoa. This is what, someone. Oh, whoa. This is what? Someone else's version? He also has a poem called To a Mouse? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. To a mouse on turning her up in her nest with the plow. Oh, wow.

Okay. So they're plowing the field and turned up. I'm going to read it. A mouse. Okay, great. I'm going to read the original. Wee-skleek-it,ekit cowrin tim rouse beastie. Oh, what a panics in thy breasty.

Or breasty. Breasty. Titties. This is about me. Oh, sorry. Well, no, I'm saying. Oh, ding, ding, ding. It might be about me.

Oh, okay. It's to a mouse. And then, okay. Thou need not start a see hasty, we bickering brattle. I wad be laith to run and chase thee, we murdering paddle. I'm truly sorry, man's dominion. Wait, now you've switched it. No, it's still.

Now it's going into translated. It's not. Okay. I'm truly sorry, man's dominion has broken nature's social union and justifies that ill opinion which makes thee startle at me, thy poor earth-born companion and fellow mortal. I doubt not, wiles, but thou may thieve. What then,

poor beastie, thou man live? A dame and ichor in a thrave, sa-sa- You could make anything up at this point. A small request. I'll get a blessing with the lave and never mist. Oh, it's really long.

I'm not going to keep reading. Okay. It is with the translation. I'll read a little bit with the translation. Yeah, I want to hear if the mouse had big breasts. Sounded like what he was beating around the bush about. Little sleek, cowering, timorous beast. Oh, what a panic is in your breast.

Oh, they're quivering. You need not start away so hasty with bickering prattle. I would be loath to run and chase you with murdering paddle. It's still hard to understand. Life was so boring back then that when you were plowing and you saw a mouse you went home and wrote a whole poem about it that there was nothing to do but plow the field and then interact with the mouse yeah it's true i can't tell if we got it better or worse you know i'm back and forth i agree but i just think of living this time like

sitting in a dirt field with no electricity inside the house and nowhere to clean up but i just think of living this time like sitting in a dirt field with no electricity inside the house and nowhere to clean up and i just oh my god end it for me nothing to put gas on the opposite extreme that's we are for sure although i guess it could be where we could have real robot like physical robots in here with us yeah distracting us i want to get two that are always trying to make us laugh like really distracting robots oh like we look over and they're dry humping each other right now doing like really immature stuff that would mean we'd have to give them egos because they would want our approval yeah that's fine with me you think we're gonna be able to do that maybe we just program them to make us laugh. That's what they're—

Oh, I see. That's what they're running. That's true. They're trial and erroring, and then they're remembering every outcome. And by the end, we'll just be laughing hysterically the whole time we're in there. Wow, that'd be fun. Absolutely. Okay.

You can hear their bodies. What's going on? For the listener, the robots are air-humping each other. One's wearing a cowboy hat. The robots, they have an uphill battle because if they're trying to get both of us. Mm-hmm. Well, we have a lot of this. We do.

We do. I don't know about the squeaking noise is really going to get me so much. But what about dry humping? Like if one was miming a robot, a stupid that would look. I think they're funny. Sophomoric. It's too sophomoric. It's a little sophomoric.

I don't think they can do, but like you can do wordplay. Oh, they can do anything. You think they can do wordplay? Yeah, and hairplay. Yeah, wow. That would be funny too, is if while we were interviewing people, both the guests and the two of us were just, we had robots behind us playing with our hair the whole time. Oh, my God.

I would love that. Well, that's the dream. Okay. She said the majority of people in med school now are women. Okay. The acceptance rate for women applicants was 42.6% compared to an acceptance rate of 44% for men. The number of women first-year students at U.S. medical schools in 2022 increased to 12,630. Women made up 55% of all first-year students in U.S. medical schools.

55. Congrats. Huge improvement. Yeah. Okay, we talked about trauma and rate of addiction. So then I looked up a score relationship. I think it's only like three if you have above. Having an A score of four nearly doubles the risk of heart disease, lung cancer, and increases the likelihood of becoming an alcoholic by 700%.

700%. People with a score of five or higher are seven to ten times more likely to use illegal drugs and become addicted. Ding, ding, dinkles. I know. That's a Sapolsky for you. Mm-hmm. The more I live with that, since we interviewed him, I'm really starting to believe it. I stand where I was then, which is I don't think it's binary.

I know. But I think it's huge. I think it's huge. I think it's more than 50%. But what I really still hold firmly onto is it only makes sense looking backwards. It just doesn't make sense looking forward. Yeah. In everything in life.

If you have the advantage of looking backwards, yeah, it all looked very predictable. Yeah. And everything in life. If you have the advantage of looking backwards, yeah, it all looked very predictable. Yeah. So I just, they'd have to go in the other direction for me just once to prove that it's possible. No, I think it's more good to know it so that you have empathy and compassion. Agreed. And how we have law, like how we structure society. Yeah. Okay, last thing.

We talked about the war on drugs and how so many of us feel, well, it's kind of in keeping superior because we're not on drugs where so much of it has to do with so many things out of our control and that the war on drugs had such a big part of it. Like drugs are so bad and people who do drugs are bad yeah don't be that because you'll be bad when i was home we talk about this on an upcoming flightless bird when i was home you know how i sit at my desk my childhood desk yeah when i record from the little basement and there's some stickers still there from when i was a wee baby yeah Yeah. And one of the stickers, it was a anti-drug sticker. Right.

And it was like, oh, it said, I dream of a drug-free world or something. One of your priorities. It's a circle and it says, I dream of a drug-free world around the perimeter. And in the center of it, it says, just like me, exclamation point. Oh, okay. And I taped that to my— You want everyone to know you are not doing drugs. No, I'm a good girl.

Yeah, I'm a good girl. Really good girl. Take me on some dates. Because I'm so good. I don't do drugs. Although you have. Although I have. And if I was in so many circumstances, I would have done a lot more.

But anyway, it's just so funny that that, like, that was given to me. That's from, like, I was in kindergarten. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean, and, you know, I'm sympathetic to the people who are trying to curb this crisis. Yes, me too. They don't know what the fuck they're doing. No one knows what they're doing. I know.

We're just, like, throwing shit at the wall. Some of it backfires. Some of it kind of works. I know. That's the other thing. I forget what guest we had on that did reference all this data, which is really important too. If it's in your neighborhood, your odds also go up exponentially. So it's like you add ACE into availability.

You weren't stumbling across anybody doing drugs. Not hardcore, no. I mean, people did stuff that i like my whole childhood did not do though but i've smelled weed smoke my whole childhood yeah it's always been around yeah you know and my dad's doing coke my stepdad's doing coke like it's a it's just around you know you see people giving other people volumes and shit and you know that they're not the doctor, so why is my aunt getting, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I know. It's just a much different.

My mom, now, I'm going to be very clear. Laura was like, she didn't drink. She didn't do any drugs. I mean, she smoked weed when she was a kid. Yeah. So it wasn't like in my house. There wasn't even really much booze. Right.

But I just think, as far as this specifically um babs king solver our boy in the book demon yeah it's everywhere around him in addition to all the ace score yes yeah that's one of the couples in season three of couples therapy she has an accident and she gets prescribed bergacet she has no history of any of this. She also had a crazy miscarriage right before, maybe an abortion, something. Then the accident, then the Percocet. It's like total relief, and then addicted to Percocet. Oh, my God.

Yeah, that can happen, too. It's not can. It's an epidemic. It's, oh, God. Still thriving. It's an epidemic Yeah It's Oh god

It's so sad Still thriving I remember my mom at one point Was on some painkillers for Oral surgery No She had frozen shoulder Oh

And Oh Her shoulder was frozen Oh my god She couldn't move it at all? It was She like could't move it at all? She could barely move it. Oh, and she had a surgery for it.

No, she didn't. She was just on painkillers for it because it hurt. Get her through. Yeah, and my grandma had it too, so I am a little anxious. Sure. I move it a lot just to keep it moving. Yeah, yeah, keep it lubricated. And she was talking about being on them, and I was like, you need to stop.

You need to stop taking those. Even as a kid? Yeah. It wasn't that long ago. Oh, okay. And so she did. But it's a slippery slope for anyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Especially if you have a lot going on at the time. Like, so much of this stuff is timing of everything. Yeah. Yeah. Sad. Okay, I think that's it for Barbie. Last thing I want to say about Babs. She said it herself. She said, choose my occupation because you can do it into your 60s and still be relevant.

Yes. And you only get better. I find that abnormally encouraging. Because that's not typically in our business. It's opposite. It gets comedians get less funny over time. So less familiar with what's really driving the angst of the culture. Directors get very comfortable slowly throughout their career. They get to ask for shorter days and shorter days and short, you know, as they're, and then everything just, you don't see many people in our business doing the greatest work

of their life. But you get less hungry. I mean, you get satisfied, which is good. You get comfortable, less angsty. Yeah. And, and then rightly so you make your environment nicer. So you'll say, I'm not going to shoot nights anymore. I got a family and blah, blah, blah. Well, but something crazy happens when you're up all night sometimes. It's all very understandable, but I would say this is a rare exception. Even look at physicists. They have this terrible, if you chart their breakthroughs, it's like it happens, seems to happen all at like 20 to 24, and then it just starts going down. That's interesting. All these things. So this is hugely encouraging, especially for me personally, who still has fantasies of writing many books.

I guess I was just encouraged that I could still do the best writing of my life. Yeah. And that the older you get, the more experience you have on earth. You get better as a writer. You're better off a little bit later. Yeah. It's cool. She's so impressive.

I wonder if she'll like the writing in my gift guide absolutely everyone does it's unanimous all right well that's it all right love you