Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Charles Duhigg (on being a supercommunicator)

Episode Date: February 15, 2024

Charles Duhigg (Supercommunicators, The Power of Habit) is a Pulitzer-prize winning journalist and best-selling author. Charles joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the difference in culture at the LA Times and New York Times, the benefits of bettering your communication, and how well humans can detect inauthenticity. Charles and Dax talk about how our brains latch on to vulnerability, the three types of conversations, and the importance of matching them. Charles explains that successful conversations are ones where you understand one another at the end, how laughter shows your willingness to connect, and how to loop for understanding. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dax Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman. Hi. Today we have Charles Duhigg. Oh my gosh, was this fun. Charles is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, New Yorker staff writer, and bestselling author. His previous books are The Power of Habit, Smarter, Faster, Better, and his new book,

which we're here to talk about, is Super Communicators, How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. This was particularly fun for us because we communicate for a living. We do. Charles was so nice about our communication for the most part. He was. He had some questions for us, which was nice. It is nice. But it was also really informative. I think it's a very good listen for anyone in the world right now. Who's alive. Yeah. Anyone who considers themselves living on planet Earth. Yes. I hope Charles feels like this is a feather in his cap. He's our 700th guest.

Also, yesterday was six-year anniversary. Happy anniversary. Happy anniversary to you. I don't think because we didn't have an episode that came out on the day. We didn't really have a moment where we said thanks. We talked about it for a second on Valentine's Day, Armchair Anonymous. Right, which will be tomorrow. Which will be tomorrow, yeah.

But yeah, happy anniversary. Happy anniversary. Six years, 700 episodes. 20% of your life. I mean, not quite 20%, but almost. In the Armchair Anonymous episode, you also give a stat. Yeah. I think you said one-sixth of my life.

It is, it is. It's really one-sixth. So I cannibalize that. It'll be less I think you said one six. It is. It is. It's really one six. So I cannibalize that. It'll be less important if you hear it tomorrow. That's the full thing. It's the Easter dinner in this case. Please enjoy Charles Duhigg. Trip Planner by Expedia.

You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and your friends find a place on a beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia. Made to travel. He's an object expert. He's an object expert. He's an object expert.

How are you? Great to meet you. He's in the good guys. I've listened to the show for years. I did not actually realize that you guys genuinely were in armchairs. Oh, well, we got to be comfy. Well, I wasn't. For a while, I was in that yellow chair. That's evolved. That's evolved. But then he got too sweaty in this chair, so he bought this grandma chair.

Specifically my back. Your back got too sweaty. Do you deal with any back sweat, Charles? Oh, my God, all the time. And sometimes I'll get up, I look fine in the front, and then there's like a streak of moisture along the back of my shirt. Well, compound this with imagine you stand up, you make that realization, fuck, I'm wet back there.

And now I've got to step outside and take pictures with Adam Grant. And he's going to put his arm around me, and it's going to be disgusting. Actually worse, like an actress that's probably attractive. Yeah. And then she's going to put her hands in a swamp. It's fine. You need to be humbled. Well.

So this is the world. That's your theory. I think I'm very humbled. This is life telling you how to be humbled? Yeah. I think I'm the most humbled person in the world. I know. Yeah.

You know, you master humility. Like, ah, ah, ah. Thank you. Motherfucker. Black belt in humility. Where are you from? No, I know there's New Mexico, but where specifically? Yeah, New Mexico originally. I'm impressed. There's not a lot to work with in your Wikipedia.

I just got to complain publicly. Yeah, it's true. At some point, I need to go in and actually put some stuff. I don't know what your parents do. I don't know what time in New Mexico. Well, good. We'll get a lot of new info. Now I live in Santa Cruz. Okay, wonderful. Do you love it there? So we moved there three years ago from Brooklyn. My wife is a marine biologist. I had made her move to New York. Not great for marine biology. She had done her grad work up in Mont it there? So we moved there three years ago from Brooklyn. My wife is a marine biologist. I had made her move to New York. Not great for marine biology. She had done her grad work up in Monterey.

So we moved back there. We have a 12-year-old and a 15-year-old. Okay, great. So yeah, Santa Cruz. Have you spent time up there? I bought a half pound of mushrooms there when I was 24. Only a half? But let me tell you, a half pound of mushrooms is two full gallon-sized Ziploc bags.

Wow. Yes. How long did that last? My best friend Aaron and I kept, I guess it would have been a quarter pound for our own consumption. And then we sold the other quarter pound. Statute of limitation. In Michigan, it was impossible then to get. Santa Cruz, you trip over mushrooms.

Literally a half pound. They're like, that's your hors d'oeuvre. The little one is your. Also, it was like 10X as cheap in Santa Cruz. And then we did imbibe there and walked around the Redwoods. It was awesome. So that's my singular Santa Cruz experience. And do you surf?

I don't. Okay. Do you? I do. Yeah. Yeah. Me and my wife. I mean, we only picked it up 10 years ago.

So like I'm a late in life coming to surfing. Did you start in the wake of that documentary happiness where it said it was like probably the most endorphin-inducing activity? Oh, I haven't seen that. Because it's combining physical activity with also your nature. There's a lot of things happening. I'm a terrible surfer. But as someone who, I mean, I know that you're athletic.

I just lift weights. Don't get ahead of yourself. She's a state champion. You snowboard. I am humble, so I won't say anything. I've never been particularly athletic or good at it. And on a surfboard, I feel graceful for the first time in my life. It feels like you're embodying poetry.

Yeah. I think snowboarding is kind of the same, right? That's my hunch. You have to work with the... Yeah, you ride it. It's not... You can't control it. You have to like...

Yeah. Dance with it. It's a waveform. It's not a photon. You're giving in to gravity. Did your wife see Free Willy and then want to go into marine biology? Like what was her inciting incident that sent her into that? It had to be something in media, right?

So she grew up in Saudi Arabia. She's a third generation born in the Middle East of Western parents. Oh, wow. And so her dad would take her spearfishing in the Red Sea and all these places. Maldives is close to there-ish. Definitely compared to us. And she just fell in love with like the underwater world. And the funny thing is, so marine biologist is not actually a job.

She's a professor of marine genetics at the university. But what's really interesting is that whenever I describe her as a marine biologist, because I'm proud of her, the number of people who are like, oh, I almost became a marine biologist. I was going to say this. This is something every five-year-old thinks they want to be. I would parallel with the dolphin tattoo on females' backs. Like there's something.

Like everyone had a face. I want a tattoo. I want a dolphin. Yeah. It's so original, right? I don't know where it came to me. I was just sitting there and I was like on the small of my back or my ankle. I think it would look cool.

I don't know where I got this idea, but maybe a dolphin? And then dudes are like, give me something tribal. I want to look like I'm from the islands. That's exactly. You can say that because you did it. Because if there's someone who says tribal, it's this pudgy white guy with the gray in his beard. You and I both scream indigenous. So while this sounds like a really idyllic life to be living up in Santa Cruz.

I did have a question. I do want to know about New Mexico, but when you wrote for the LA Times, did you live here? So I actually lived like a mile from here. You did? I used to go to Bird's all the time. Oh, sure. Yeah. This was like 20 years ago.

This was so long ago. Did you like it here? I loved living in LA. I loved writing for the LA Times. I mean, I love New York too. New York is an amazing city, but LA has this hidden energy. It's like a thousand cities, right? Yeah. It is. And so you can dip into all of them. Polycentric multinodal. That's from an LA geography class. Wow. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. You pulled that out like nobody's business. Thank you. As it was coming out, I wasn't sure about it.

But back to the humility. You have to save the confidence. I'm going to edit it out. I do want to shoot you, as you should. We're going to go back to New Mexico because we're at LA Times. One thing I was immediately curious about is you wrote there, of course, but then you also wrote the New York Times for quite a stretch, like 14 years or something? Yeah, 14 years.

So how did the two cultures differ? I'll say the LA Times, when I was there there is a very different newspaper than it is today, right? Because there's been all these ownership issues. It was before it was bought by a chain. So it was still owned by folks who felt very local about LA. When I got the job at the New York Times and I was at the LA Times, I called up a guy who had made that same transition and I asked him and I was like, what's the difference?

And he was like, at the LA Times and in LA, you are always the ugliest person in the room, but people will come talk to you because they think it's interesting that you're a journalist. They want attention. What a funny. And at the New York Times, you will definitely

not be the ugliest person in the room. And no one will want to talk to you ever. Zero interest. Because they're off making gajillions of in the room. Right. And no one will want to talk to you ever. Yeah. Of zero interest. Because they're off making gajillions of dollars or whatever. Yeah. That's a good summation of New York and LA. Yeah. Which is like, you could try to get someone's attention on the street in New York.

It's not happening. No. You could be on fire. You could be offering $100 bills. People are just like, I don't fucking see you. I'm keep walking. Whereas in LA, they'll stop and talk to you and then they'll be like, you know, if you just lost 10 pounds,

you would look a lot better. People want to talk to you because you could be the one to give them their big break or you never know what you might be able to get from someone. To be honest, Charles, it does also look like you could have created a TV show. You very much look like a writer. A linen shirt and a beard.

I think what you're saying is I have a face for radio. No. much look like a writer. Showrunner. Yeah, linen shirt and a beard. I think what you're saying is I have a face for radio. No. Is that a face for writing? No. You look like you belong in a writing room. No. Without showering. You're very handsome and rugged looking, but you look like a writer.

This could be Mike Schur. So that adds up. But I mean a TV writer. Yeah, but it's one and the same. That's true. Was there varying levels of pride about the institution itself? Because for me, New York Times feels like as much as we have of a megalith in this country of literary tradition, of course, you're at the only one that's crazier than that, the New Yorker now.

But how did that vary? I mean, there's this thing that happens when you go to the New York Times, which is that first of all, people who wouldn't return your call before suddenly not only will return your call, they will call you with a story. So I would lose out to stories all the time. And they were call, they will call you with a story. So I would lose out to stories all the time. And they were like, it's the New York Times Advantage. They literally called them and just handed it to them. So once I was on the other side of that, that was great. But the other thing is there is this sense of importance slash self-importance at the New York Times. It's very hard to navigate around because if

you're putting someone on the front page of the New York Times, this could be a life-changing moment for them. And so you have to be really careful. With great power comes great responsibility. And the LA Times, you're like, I don't know, maybe we'll read this edition or not. We're not sure. Some of these things work.

Did I get it next to the cooking thing? So maybe people will see it. Where do you think LA Times ranks in cachet in the national newspapers? I mean, the problem is the newspaper industry has basically died. There were something like 2,000 local newspapers shut down in the last four years. It is crazy. If you want to go commit graft or be corrupt in a city, now's the time, man. Nobody's watching.

Right. I think what's happened is that there's the Post, the Times, the Wall Street Journal, the LA Times. I don't even know if there's another newspaper. Chicago Sun, don't care. Yeah, maybe. Boston. The Globe, yeah.

And magazines, there's like, obviously, The New Yorker, The Atlantic. I still read Wired. And I actually have this question for you guys, because you guys are at the white heart center of the new culture. Do you think people want to read books anymore? I do. It's my resolution. But the fact that you made a resolution means you're not doing it on your own.

I'm not. I kind of have two answers for that. Also, are we going to incorporate listening to them? I think so. Yeah. Like consuming books, I think should be the measure. Yes, I agree. But I'll give you a great example. So we have Matthew McConaughey in recently, and his memoir, I believe, is the most successful memoir in the last 20 years. And it has sold 3 million copies. Then we had our

friend Jedediah Jenkins, whose father wrote these series of books about walking across America in the 70s, from which that part of Forrest Gump was based. And you haven't heard of him. No. Those books sold 15 million in the 70s. So clearly the metrics would suggest it's gone downhill. But yet probably I'm in a silo. I read a ton of books. Everyone I know is generally talking about books they've read. The people that listen to this show read a ton of books. I don't know. I guess it's hard to, I guess the numbers would suggest that. People still want to learn and take in information, but reading has gone by the wayside in the way to do it. People get quick

information from TikTok and social media, and they'll read the headline of the New York Times and skim, but sitting with a book feels so daunting in this current attention era. And I think that actually one of the things, I have this hypothesis, and I don't know if this is true, is that people just need a certain number of stories in their lives. And books used to provide stories, right? You read Malcolm Gladwell, you read a big idea book, and it had all these stories in it. And that's what I try and do with my books. But I think that that itch for story is increasingly being filled by podcasts. Yeah.

Right? Because podcasts have great stories. Or that itch for hanging out with people you like, because I can listen to you guys while I'm driving down the road, and it just feels like I'm with friends. You get hopefully both things. And you're delivering actual ideas to me. And TV is so much better now than it was 20 years ago, right? A thousand percent. Like there's so many stories.

And so as a result, I think that people are getting their story fix in other places. The only upside of all this, I would say, is that I do think reading now, because we do this other thing so much, in the 80s when you read a book, it was say, is that I do think reading now, because we do this other thing so much, in the 80s when you read a book, it was like, yeah, this is boring too, and I'm calm. Yeah. It wasn't relative to anything else. Whereas now I think when you read a book, at least for myself, it's taken on this other property, which is almost meditative. It puts me into a space in my brain that I'm not in as much as I used to be with less stimulation. It's like therapeutic more than ever. Okay. So let me ask you another question. Sorry,

I'm asking you the interview. This is so fun. I regret doing any research. Since the book I wrote is about communication, I was actually really looking forward to coming on because you guys do long shows. You're always present throughout the entire show. I never get the sense that you're thinking in your head, like, I got to ask this question. I got to push it this way. Have you become super communicators through the show or were you a super communicator before the show? Good question. I'll let Monica answer first. I'll answer for you. Well, no. I'll answer for you. Well, I think you've been an incredible communicator before we started this.

I think we've both gotten a lot better, but I think you have that innate ability. I would say that's definitely a strength of mine. And I was disheartened to see that one of the original questions you propose in the book is to say, when you've had a problem, think of who you've called recently. Were they the funniest? Were they the most entertaining? You basically listen to what I would think is like my other qualities. You're like, no, you'd call the person.

So in some ways, I imagine I challenge your paradigm. So you're probably an exception to the paradigm. Okay. But it's a great point. Most people, when we have a problem, we don't call someone who's like a movie star. You don't even call the smartest person. No. You call that person who's a super communicator.

I'm going to try an idea and you tell me if I'm getting it right. Yeah. Even though you are smart and funny, probably the reason those people call you is because they feel like you're really listening to them. You hear what they're saying and you're trying to see things through their perspective. Do you think that's right? I do. This feels so self-indulgent, but let's do it because we're fucking here and I'm going to answer your question. I have a few explanations. I am in an ab and for 20 years, I sit and listen to men share. That clearly has done something.

My dad was a good communicator. My mom's a good communicator. Additionally, I have all this trauma, so I'm hypervigilant. Sure, I'm listening to you very carefully, but I'm not going to say it's entirely altruistic. I'm watching you like a fucking hawk. Are you a liability? Are you going to do something strange? What's happening next? So I think some of it's coming out of a pathology. But that's actually what a super communicator does, because in addition to listening closely,

they're paying attention to what the other person is transmitting beyond just the words that are coming out of my mouth. And we can talk a little bit more about this later, but there's these three kinds of conversations that most of us fall into. And the thing is that it's sometimes hard to figure out which kind of a conversation we're in, but people who just train themselves, by the way, anyone can be a super communicator. Like it's just a set of skills that you learn. Right. There's no biological disposition. No, not at all. Or even a certain personality. But I think what you just said that you're watching me like a hawk without making me feel like I'm being interrogated or watched like a hawk.

That's really important because if you say something, I'm like, you're going to pick up. Yeah, I'm not going to miss anything. Yeah. And so as a result, not only can you match me, if I just sent you a little micro message, like I'm kind of uncomfortable, you can invite that into the room. room charles the funnest moments we've had on the entire show in six years or at least from my perspective have been those little things where i just saw someone's eyes move a tiny bit and then they moved on for a second and then i said hold on let's go back something just happened and i would love to get into that and it's generally too it's another hyper vigilant person interesting so the one that pops out is machine gun kelly and i said something and then he just had the tiniest eye twitch and then he proceeded on and then i said what happened a

minute ago and then he was cool enough to go through it and he was hyper but like when he walked in this room he looked in every corner of it and kind of scoped that there were windows over there and the doors there and it was quite obvious like okay this dude needs to know how to get out of here if shit goes sideways right i guess if your first name is machine gun they probably get like it's probably yeah it's like on brand you know yes yes but all this is so fascinating and you've already introduced the three different kinds of conversations you could find yourself in your first name's Machine Gun. You gotta wonder what are his parents thinking? I think we should first lay out what the incentive would be

for someone to even explore this. Why would someone take the time to even evaluate their communication and or try to better it? I mean, what's interesting is you mentioning that you pick up on that like little eye twitch, right? That you're looking for that. That's actually why your friends call you when they're feeling bad, is because you help them understand themselves. When you think about humans, communication is our superpower. The reason humans have succeeded as a species is

because we can talk to each other, and by talking to each other, we can share knowledge, we can form communities, we can form families. Pass on knowledge, pass on culture. Exactly. Communication is at the core. And by the way, our brain has evolved to be really good at communication. That's why we all have the potential to be super communicators because we all have the circuitry there. We all have the instincts. We just have to understand how to let them out. And I think people would overlook how much communication is a part of their job. Oh, absolutely. I think there are people that would be like, well, no, I install mufflers at Midas.

Communication is really not all that essential to this. Until your boss comes over and is like, hey, can you go work on this car instead of that car? And you're like, whatever, jerk. Right. And you get fired. To say it's everything is not an exaggeration. Well, relationships are everything between humans. That's exactly right.

And that's the only way to succeed in a relationship is have good communication. So you mentioned AA. I wrote this book called The Power of Habit. And there's a whole chapter. Very successful book, let's say. Yeah, yeah. It's on all the bestseller lists. It's great.

2012? Yeah, a decade ago. And there's a chapter on AA. How does AA work? What's the history of AA? And the thing that's amazing to me, I've been to a number of meetings just because I think everyone should go to an AA meeting at least once. I think it's like the most powerful thing you can do. You go into a room, you literally just hear someone communicate with you. You connect with them, even if you're not speaking back. And that changes your addiction.

That changes what you can do in this world. That changes what cravings you can fight and what you can embrace about yourself. That's amazing. Yeah. What was your conclusion about the proprietary thing that's happening? When I try to explain the magic of AA, it's not just that you're listening. You're almost listening as an outside observer in that your own self-defenses are not enacted because the share is not directed at you personally. So it's this bizarre privileged position to listen to someone's most intimate thing, but you're not on the hook for anything. You will not be asked to engage. It lowers all your defenses. Like you're not talking to me. So when you tell me, you know, I have a problem with my wife, I don't assume you think I have the same. That's the weird magic of it is like nothing

personal is being triggered. Your identity is not being threatened. You're not defensive. You're able to observe as if you're watching TV safely. That's really insightful. I had not thought of that until just now. Okay. Should we do an addendum to the book? Yes, absolutely. We got a new chapter for the book. So I think one of the things that's happening there is that what super communicators can do really well is they can disappear into the conversation. So they're not thinking about what they're going to say next. They're not thinking about how they present themselves. They're not thinking about, here's the tricks I'm going to use. They're very much in the flow. There's actually a neural,

it's called neural entrainment. There's a connectivity that happens between people. Neural simultaneity. Yeah. Neural simultaneity. Yeah. Tough word. Yeah. It's a tough word. It's a tough word. Tough one to spell. Yeah, I know, I know. Because it's supposed to be I before E except for after C, but it's not. That's where the spell check comes up.

Yes. If we could measure this, what we would see in this conversation, because I think we're connected, our pupils are dilating at the same rate. Oh, wow. Our breath patterns, without us noticing it, are matching each other. In our brain, if we could do brain scans of the three of us, we'd see that our brains start looking similar. Literally the neural activity starts looking similar.

That's what communication is. I think of an idea, I feel an emotion, I describe it to you and you think about it or you feel it. But is that why like cults happen? Like all tools, communication is a tool, right? You can use an ax to build a house or to go chop off someone's head. Yeah.

Get Lizzie Borden's mom in the crowd. I mean, these are super communicators, cult leaders, and like Trump. Oh my God, who are you going to whisper? He doesn't like to go political, but hello. We had a president who- Well, Elch is, suffice to say, any president is a super communicator. Well, one specifically got a lot of people's brains to move in a direction. Yes.

We have a lot of defenses for interpersonal communication against this manipulation. Okay. Basically, we can detect inauthenticity really, really well. Okay. That's why it's hard to be a great actor. Oh, that's interesting. There's any number of millions that have tried it, but it's not memorizing the words. We are the best lie detectors on planet Earth.

We can see bullshit. Yeah. To your point, is this something that creates cults? Yes, but it's also the thing that allows us to develop relationships with other people. I am married to my wife because of conversations we have had, and I can tell you the top 10, and none of them were easy, and they were all conversations where I learned something about myself based on what I said and based on what she said. Those are the most- You sound like a dream husband. He knows the top 10 conversations. He's a great listener and knows how to communicate.

Let me just say, so this book was born in part by fights I had with my wife where I was like the asshole. But great to admit that. They give you to admit it. Now, now, now I've admitted it. I called her yesterday and I was like, I'm going to describe this one fight we had. And she was like, we weren't fighting for the reason you thought we were fighting. Oh, that's great.

We were fighting because you were being a jerk. Is that in your book? You got a chapter on just being a straight up asshole without any neurology? Back to the thing you were just saying, though, how we'll match each other. You give a great example in the book when they do fMRIs of musicians that are playing by themselves. And they have completely unique and fingerprinty type brain activity and then when they start doing a duet now all of a sudden oh that's so cool they look exactly the same there's another study where they basically had

this woman tell a story about her prom night and it was this long complicated story that went on for like 20 minutes and they had people listening to it, they could tell who understood the story best by how closely their brain matched the speaker's brain. No, that's so interesting. Without even listening, right? There's these little details, there's little characters. And if my brain matches yours, I have heard that story. I remember that character, but more importantly, I understand why you told me about that character. Yeah. Well, you say when you get to this neural um what's the word

we want to say entrainment yeah but the word we hated oh oh synchronicity no neurosynchronicity neurosimilarity something i don't know you're forcing me to look at the piece of paper we just said it's hard to spell simultaneity or whatever simultaneity When you reach that neural simultaneity, you listen better, but you also speak clearer. That's exactly right. You know how to say something so someone is going to listen to you. For the same reason that when you're picking up on stuff about me or Machine Gun Kelly or whoever it is, and you ask me a question, the way you ask me that question is tied into what I'm thinking and feeling, right? If you were just like machine gun, it looked like your eyes went off to the side. Tell me what's going on there. He's stoned. Yeah, right. Exactly. Wait, I know he's stoned. Is anything else happening? But you probably asked that question in a way that made it feel really safe for him to answer it. And that's really important. We should earmark that because I

think that's another element of what happens in here that happens in AA, which is people are also inclined to match other people's vulnerability. There's some weird ethical, we have it. It's one of the most beautiful parts of ourselves. I remember the very first time I ever admitted I had been molested was in response to a girl telling me she had been raped. And I was like, oh my God, that's so brave. She said this. I'm the first person she ever told.

I'm holding the secret. I owe her this. I don't know that I ever would have admitted it other than she just had shown me that trust and I owed it to her. What I love about that is that in the psychological literature, that's actually referred to as emotional or vulnerability reciprocation. And it's exactly what you just said. So there is this thing that's hardwired in our head by evolution. Vulnerability is the loudest thing that someone can do. If someone is saying something vulnerable, we cannot help but listen to them,

even if we want to ignore them. In politics, this is why it happens, right? In movies, because if you think about it, when you're evolving, when somebody is expressing vulnerability, it means either you can attack them, they're being attacked and you need to protect them. It's so loud because it's so hard. The only time someone would be vulnerable is if they have something important to say. So our brain actually will latch onto vulnerability. But you're exactly right. There's this emotional reciprocation that when I hear vulnerability, I feel like I owe

it to this person to listen and to be vulnerable in reply. And it's an open door. It's like, oh, this is the chance. Most people want to be vulnerable it's just really hard yeah and so if somebody else is doing it you feel like they kind of gave you permission to do it and every mistake i've made in communication when i look back on it one night i sort of wrote this long list of all the past year all the things this is why i wrote the book is because i wanted to learn how to do this better. Basically, every communication mistake I've made comes down to not recognizing someone's vulnerability or recognizing it and

ignoring it, not reciprocating, not taking seriously that debt that I owe them. Well then, okay, so now let's get into there's three different kinds of conversation because as we just talked about, there's a bunch of neurology involved and different areas of your brain are responsible for different types of communication. So of course, someone speaking out of their amygdala is not going to be communicating with someone that's in their frontal lobe to another person that's in the hippocampus. Those three areas of the brain don't speak the same language. That's exactly right. They're literally speaking different cognitive languages. So what researchers have found, we're living through this kind of golden age of understanding communication because of advances in neuroimaging and data collection. And what they

found is that we think of a discussion as one thing, but actually every single discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations. And in general, most of those conversations fall into one of three buckets. There's these practical conversations where we're trying to figure out what are we actually talking about? Or we're trying to make a plan together, or we're trying to solve a problem. It's like decision-making. Exactly. That's the prefrontal cortex. Then there's these emotional conversations where I come in and I say something emotional and I don't want you to solve my problem. Now, this is the most generic male-female genderized debate ever.

I'm just going to guess. I don't know how gender works out in your relationship. Feel free to bet your life on it. I'm sure you're going to get it right. Your wife brings you a problem and you try and solve it. That's right. And then she gets pissed off. I try to figure out how to prevent her from ever feeling this way again. I've got a solution. You'll never have to feel this way again because I'm terrified of your emotions.

I just want you to listen to how I feel. Yeah. And be compassionate and be present. To have an emotional conversation with me. And then there's these social conversations, which are about how we relate to other people and how we relate to society, how we think society sees us. It's a huge part of where identity becomes this huge pillar.

And what researchers have found is what's known as the matching principle, that if your wife comes to you and wants to have an emotional conversation and you reply with a practical conversation, you're both having legitimate conversations. You will not hear each other. And more importantly, you will inflame each other. I will feel like you're both having legitimate conversations. You will not hear each other. And more importantly, you will inflame each other.

I will feel like you're ignoring me. Even if you're like, I want to solve your problem. Yeah, why aren't you just acknowledging if you put your phone on the nightstand every time you'll never have to look for it again? Right. Why are you crying about this? Yeah.

This is the most obvious solution is on your lap. Why aren't you picking it up? And so part of it is just developing a slight habit. This is what super obvious solution is on your lap. Why aren't you picking it up? And so part of it is just developing a slight habit. This is what super communicators do. They have this slight habit just to pick up on what kind of conversation is happening. So if I said something vulnerable right now, my guess is the two of you, you would respond with vulnerability. You would know that I'm having an emotional conversation.

You'd meet me there without even thinking about it. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Sasha hated sand, the way it stuck to things for weeks. So when Maddie shared a surf trip on Expedia Trip Planner, he hesitated. Then he added a hotel with a cliffside pool to the plan. And they both spent the week in the water. You were made to follow your whims. We were made to help find a place

on the beach with a pool and a waterfall and a soaking tub and of course a great shower. Expedia. Made to travel. Expedia, made to travel. The identity thing is really fascinating, and I think it's what obviously plagues any political debate. And I think people, we've talked about it on here a ton of times over the last six years, but obviously once your identity is being, from your perspective, threatened, this is a life or death thing. Now, this is straight amygdala.

You're not going to get the frontal lobe involved in this debate. Now, this is survival. This is in-group, out-group. This is like the most primitive shit imaginable. And I would imagine, not to say one's the most important, but really recognize when what you're doing is igniting someone's or challenging someone's sense of identity. Challenging someone's sense of identity rather than acknowledging it. Right. Right.

So there's been a bunch of studies that have looked at conversations, particularly between white people and black people because of the post-George Floyd period. And what they found is that people's instincts are often to not acknowledge race. I sit down, you're my black friend. Colorblind. And even if I don't say I'm colorblind, we sit down and we're having a conversation and I'm not gonna be like, you know, as the black dude, what do you think about this?

So what's really important is to just acknowledge that we have differences. And those differences are actually pretty awesome. They're super interesting. Yeah, yeah. And then the other thing that's important is to recognize that everyone at that table has an identity. So very often, I think in conversations, particularly if it's a group of white people

and they're talking about something and there's one black guy there, something about race comes up and everyone turns to him and that feels terrible for him. Sure, sure. But it also means that everyone else at that table, their racial identity is not being brought into the conversation. Now, sometimes that's appropriate, right? Because we want to create space for marginalized folks to have a voice and they've been excluded. But if the goal of the conversation is to understand each other,

you need to have everyone in that conversation and identities are critical. You know, I was on Parenthood. My wife on the show was black, Joy Bryant, one of my very best friends in the world. And we were together all week long for six years and we never, stopped talking about race that's our favorite conversation it's found it endlessly fascinating there was this level of trust and understanding between us it was so enjoyable for both of us she's curious and confused by so many things i'm doing i have quite why is it a car note not a car payment? Why is there Vaseline in the wintertime on the cheeks?

I lived in Detroit. What's that all about? It was endless for me and endless for her. That for us was the bedrock of the friendship, was constantly acknowledging that. Because you're both allowed to bring your true selves to the conversation, right? Right.

Monica, you're a brown person, right? Yeah, yeah. I'm a white guy. Dax is a white guy. We're talking about race. To not acknowledge that you have had a different experience than we have. And that's super interesting. I want to know what that is. Totally. I think it depends. It's like with Joy, you two knew there was no judgment. You have to know that in order to be able to have a real conversation with someone

or else you're going to get defensive. And you guys also were the same on the level of power like you guys both had the same job same size trailer those things matter if someone's talking down to you if someone's your boss and they're talking to you in a certain way that's different well i think it's safe to say even your and i's comfort level with discussing your indian-ness has evolved over the last eight years i think it's gone up and down. Oh, tell me. When we first started becoming friends, we talked so openly about so much stuff.

Yeah. And then when we became very good friends, it almost got in some ways harder because if there was a challenge, it felt like, oh no, if he doesn't get it, then how could I still be friends with this person? Whereas when you're first getting to know someone and first understanding them, the stakes are not that high. That's really interesting.

But then we come back. I just think it's more complicated. And there is some research on how to make this easier. What most of the studies say, a tough conversation like this about identity, if you start it by saying, I just want to acknowledge upfront, this is going to be an awkward conversation. And by the way, I'm going to sound stupider than I am. I don't have any of this worked out. Yeah, and you're probably going to say things

that you don't mean it, don't mean what you're actually saying. And by the way, here's an obstacle we might hit, right? Like I'm worried that if you say something, maybe it's going to prove that you're racist and you're my friend and I don't want to think that you're a racist. And what do we do when we get to that point? Yeah.

How do we plan in advance to overcome that? Also, I am. We all are. Yeah. Literally. On some scale, I am. That's absolutely right. And that'll pop up. And then you'll correct me, you know. Yes.

But I'm most certainly going to step in it. I think in that moment when you do that, it's very popular to say intentions don't matter. But I really actually believe what you're doing is you're pretty clearly stating your intention, which is like, I want to come to understand you. And I'm not going to do a very good job in route to it. But I want you to know my goal is to do that and not to label you or dismiss you or judge you for something. I just really want to know. And that's my intention. And I'm going to do it ineloquently. I just really want to know, and that's my intention, and I'm going to do it ineloquently.

The thing that's really important about that that I think you put very well is the goal of a successful conversation is a conversation where you understand each other. It is not a conversation where you convince each other. It is not a conversation even where you come to agreement on something. Right? Totally. Well, this is the Netflix example from the book. This has got to be the best one. Can you share it? Yeah, walk people through the Netflix.

Sure. So there was this VP of communications who, during a meeting, used the N-word. He was sort of explaining a situation, and he said, it's as if someone who is African-American had heard the word, and then he said something. He said it. Okay. And at the time, Netflix has this culture where you're supposed to say anything. You're supposed to challenge each other all the time, attack each other.

And one of the things that happens is that this incident is like a spark to set off the Civil War, where basically there's a bunch of people who are like, look, we have problems with race at Netflix that we have not been acknowledging. And other people who are like, we don't have any problems with race. It's just that you don't work hard enough. And that's why you haven't gotten promoted. Right. And Netflix has no idea how to deal with this. This is tearing the company apart. They eventually fired the guy. It took them four months to fire the guy. The whole time, there's this internal debate going on across the entire company. I talked to him. I talked to the executive as part of my reporting. He's a former Wall Street Journal reporter. This has all been

written about in the newspapers. There's no anonymity. He says to me, I'd been living abroad for years as a foreign correspondent. I didn't realize that you had to say the N-word now, that there was a sensitivity when I was growing up. You could say that word as long as you didn't say it as a slur. And then he said, and the problem is, I think it's totally unfair to judge people by their worst day. I made one mistake and the rest of my accomplished life gets ignored by it. Well, by the way, there were iterations of it. There was moments in my 25 years here in Hollywood where it's like, if you were directly quoting somebody who said something, you would do it. I wouldn't do that now. But there was a time where it was like, I'm not saying that thing. I'm telling you what was said.

Or in scripts, I'm sure. Yes. If you're writing for a black character who's in a verbal dust-up with someone else, the reality is that word's coming out a bunch. Yeah. So what do you do as the writer? So what's interesting is about how Netflix resolved this. Okay. Because as the company's getting torn apart, so they hire this woman, Renee Myers, who's a wonderful woman. She's basically spent her whole life thinking about how to have conversations about diversity. And she comes in and what she says is, we need to have way more conversations about race. But the way that we're going to do it is we're going to do it in an environment that always feels safe. And the way we're going to

make it safe is first of all, we're going to say, this is going to be awkward. I'm going to make mistakes. You're going to make mistakes. By the way, I want people to talk about the racial experiences. If you're white, you have as much a racial experience as everyone else. You need to talk about the, and it's unfair to the black or brown person. Like you're going to tell us all about race. Yeah. Teach us. in the identity conversation, she asked deep questions. And you guys do this really, really well on the podcast. I think you do it without even realizing it. A deep question is something that asks us about our values, our beliefs, our experiences. And it can be really simple. Like if I ask you, what do you do for a living?

And you say, I'm a lawyer. I could say like, oh, did you always want to be a lawyer? That's about your experiences. Do you love that job? I'm asking you about your values. What made you decide to go to law school? Was there a moment? Was there a moment that changed your mind?

Like I'm getting into some beliefs there, right? Right. It's a super easy thing to say, but when you respond, you are telling me so much about who you are. And here's the important part. If it's a conversation about race or something controversial, you're the expert on you. I can't tell you like, oh no, you didn't decide to become a lawyer because you saw your dad got arrested.

You decided to become a lawyer for a totally different reason. Because you want money. Yeah, right. I can't second guess your experiences about you. That's why when you're arguing with your partner, that's why the me statements are so important, which is, this isn't about you. I'm telling you how I responded, and that can't really be debated. Now, whether I shut the door with the intention to pitch, that's a debate.

But how I felt's not a debate. And I own that. I have the right to own that. And by the way, whatever I'm feeling is probably something you have felt in the past. Whenever I fight with my wife, and at some point she says something like, I'm feeling really threatened, and I'm feeling like I can't say my thing,

I know what that feels like. Even if we disagree with each other, we have something in common now. I empathize. I reciprocate. I can't say my thing. I know what that feels like. Even if we disagree with each other, we have something in common now. I empathize. I reciprocate. I wrote down a little thing because that wasn't where it ended at Netflix because then we also had Chappelle.

Yeah. So to refresh everyone's memory, his standup routine comes out. People within the company are very upset. People quit. There's walkouts. There's all kinds of things that happen. They had a town hall and this person said,

we had a big town hall after this started. And the rules were made clear at the beginning. Everyone was allowed to talk, but no shaming or blaming or attacks. You had to think before you spoke. You had to contribute rather than just criticize. I just feel like these are the best ground rules. Yeah, I love that. I feel like so many of these debates I hear online, in social media, at campuses, no one's adhering to any fucking rules whatsoever.

And they're not talking about the rules when they start. Like, if we just sat down and we're like, here's the rules of us talking about religion, we all think they're good, then suddenly we're cooperating. Right. When I heard this statement, because this was, as I recall, this is also someone who was quite critical of them allowing the Chappelle thing to exist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He helped lead the complaints.

The charge, yeah. So I do, and again, this is such a stereotype and it's probably offensive and I'm probably wrong, but I do feel like the younger generation seems a little bit like to be heard is to get your way. There's some expectation that when I say what I say, if you really heard me and comprehended and took the time, then the outcome should go my way. And I think that's a weird expectation. That's not really it. The only commitment is like, we're going to hear each other and really take a minute to understand where each other's coming from.

But that's not to say I'm going to reverse my position or that it's going to go your way. And I don't know if it's the younger people. Yeah, I don't think it's 80. I see it happening with my peers all the time. And I do it sometimes. There is this mindset we get into where I sit down with my uncle and he thinks lizard people are taking over the world. And I'm like, if I can just show him the right evidence, he's going to see that that's crazy.

Right. But the truth is, my uncle has spent 45 hours researching this online. He knows his own evidence. Yeah. And how do I respond to that? Do I try and change his mind, give him evidence? No. Instead, I ask a deep question. I say, I'm just wondering, like, of all the things we could be talking about right now,

why is this one so important to you? I'm really curious, the lizard people, like, what do they mean to you? And what are they threatening? What are they going to do? Yeah. And he's probably going to say something like, I think that things are stacked against guys like me. I think that like the elites are taking advantage of us. And at that point, now we can have an emotional conversation about that. Because I can say, I feel that way sometimes too. Right. It's a different group, but I feel that way. Yeah. I feel that way about the Plutarchs or whoever. When we walk away from that conversation, I am not going to believe in the lizard people. He is not going to think that the lizard people

don't exist. We are going to disagree with each other, but I understand why. What fear has been triggered yes or joy or whatever whatever it is i know this is the thing i kept saying during the last election which i can't believe we're here again but i was listening to both sides it occurred to me all of a sudden it's like neither side's really about anything other than their fears. Each side is afraid of different things. Both sides are afraid. Left's afraid of environmental collapse.

They're afraid of, you know, all kinds of- Injustice. I mean, there's a lot. And the right is terrified that this place that they've known their whole life is not going to exist. Or that guns, which are something important to me, are going to be taken away from me. Yeah, that's not going to be able to feed my family. If everyone could just learn to,

instead of like, you're full of shit because of blank, it's just, I'm afraid of this. I can relate to that. And this happened with COVID. Oh yeah, because you have a vaccine chapter. When COVID started, the vaccine came out, there were a bunch of anti-vaxxers. And the CDC said at first, just go give them the evidence.

You're a doctor if you just give them the evidence. And that was a total failure, right? Because the people had done their own research. They had looked at sources that they believed. So they completely changed tack and they taught this method called motivational interviewing. And in motivational interviewing, what you do is you ask a deep question. You ask a why question. You listen for what the person says from a values perspective.

And then you say to them, I feel the same values you do. And I struggle with aligning them to exactly your point that the world is complicated. So you just said that you care deeply about your grandchildren and you're worried about the world they're inheriting. And yet you're really scared that you want to protect them from vaccines because you think it's going to give them autism. I hear you. That is a legitimate, I understand why you feel scared. I'll tell you what I'm scared about because I care about my kids is that I see all these kids come in, they aren't vaccinated and there's nothing I can do

for them once they're sick. And I want to believe in freedom. I'm trying to figure out how do I reconcile freedom with helping protect people when they don't want that protection? You have experienced this, like help me figure this out. And then the person convinces them. That's the most effective way to get them to take the vaccine. Well, during the vaccine thing, the thing that struck me is like, if you were an alien and you had no emotional attachment to either of these arguments I'm about to parallel, it would be so blatantly obvious that both people have the exact same view and it is abortion and vaccine.

So the right didn't want to vax because they didn't think the government should have control of their body. The left does not want abortion rights to be abolished because they don't think the government should tell them what they should do with their body. And it's like, how could these two groups who are literally diametrically opposed,

who have the exact same argument about these two things, cannot see in each other that those are valid arguments? And there was a period in our history when that was easier. I mean, America was born in conversation. The Constitutional Convention was people who hated each other, arguing with each other. It's incredible anything got done. It's amazing.

Abortion's a great example. Pre-Roe versus Wade, if you look at the conversation around abortion, it was much more moderate than it is today. It was much more people listening to each other. And there's actually a lot of political scientists who say that Roe v. Wade was bad because it stopped. The states would have ended up

legalizing abortion on their own. But what's happened today, part of it is technology. It's inevitable. But part of it also is just that we've stopped thinking about how to communicate. We've stopped training kids how to communicate. I think the most provocative and entertaining explanation is the Malcolm Gladwell one he did on revisionist history last year, which is there was a point in the past where 35% of us all watched the same TV show on Wednesday night. And we got on a bus and the person next to us probably saw the cheers finale.

Just that. Monoculture. Yeah, the monoculture that the networks themselves were forced to have the dialogue and come up with a compromise before they presented it. And then we all had that thing in common and that you could actually predict people's voting patterns by how many hours of television they watched in the 80s. That was the most significant predictor. It's like, well, there's a weird variable that's also in the mix now.

We all watch our own shows. And now the biggest variable is whether you went to college or not. And it's for the exact same reason. Because if I went to college and you did not, we both believe that our lives are totally different. Now, they might not be. We're neighbors. We live right next to each other. We both have the same community. We're still trying to solve our wife's emotional

issues with pragmatic solutions. Yeah. But like for whatever reason, we've gotten stuck in this viewpoint instead of bringing it up and saying, Hey, you didn't go to college. Tell me a little bit about what that decision was like. Are you happy you made it? Instead of having that conversation where actually we would figure out what we have in common, even around this issue, we avoid it because we're terrified that asking the question is going to piss them off or it's going to be awkward or we're not going to know how to end the conversation. Is there anything in there about taking a couple extra minutes to pursue a path that isn't divisive first? Example I always give is I go to the sand dunes a lot. I'm going next week. It's a hundred percent Trump flags. And I go to this thing, you drive out to the middle of the dunes and there's this great

swing set and I'm constantly out there. And what I see first is these dads put so much effort in to get their kids out here to do this thing. I fucking know what that's like. They were trying to get them out of the house. They've taken the time. These are good dads. Let's just start with that guy with the fucking go Brandon flag, which I find annoying and embarrassing, is a good dad. And so is there any strategy or technique suggested about first touching down on a few things we are similar in? Absolutely.

And the reason why it's important to do that is not because you have the thing in common. So the fact that you're a good dad and that this other guy is a good dad, there's lots of good dads. But what's important is that when you bring it up, you're showing him that you actually want to match him. You're showing him that you want to connect. There's been all these studies that about 80% of the time we laugh is not in response to something funny. 80% of the time we laugh is because we want to show someone that we want to connect with them. And then when they laugh back, which we all do, they're showing us that they want to reciprocate.

They want to connect with us. And the thing is, neither of us think something is funny. That's embarrassing. It's the impulse. Which in itself is funny. Right. Yeah. But the impulse to show that I want to connect with you.

Yeah. So when you talk to a dad and you're like, we both love the White Sox, or we both love our kids, or, oh, you grew up in this place, I grew up near there. It doesn't matter. It's not like you both care about that place. What you're saying is, I want to connect with you. I'm kind of hoping to learn something about you. So now why do you feel that way about Trump? How about this, though?

This feels new that people are, I think, increasingly threatened that people don't think like them. That was the most interesting thing about traveling. It's actually super interesting that people don't think like them. That was the most interesting thing about traveling. It's actually super interesting that people don't think like you. But now I feel like it's identity first at all times. And so someone not thinking like you is threatening, which I feel like is new. Maybe I wasn't online enough. Well, politics have changed a lot and it does feel more threatening.

It does feel like they've become more extreme. And so if you agree with this president, you're actually signing up for something that could actually hurt me. It is threatening. It's not like, oh, yeah, I don't love that idea. It's never going to affect me. But is that person threatening? That person can be threatening if they're contributing to someone who could hurt me i get that part but could they individually yes i believe voters have an impact right so it's

already done they voted for trump do they actually in real life not theoretically not down river does the person who voted for trump in front of you are they going to put you in a cage or are they going to oppress you for your race in real life? The chance that they might oppress you for your race or say something racist when you've had experiences in life where that's happened, you know, when the chances are higher with each individual person that's in front of you. I think my thing is though, is like, it's such guilt by association. So it's like, maybe they voted for Trump. Let's just be really generous they're a fiscal conservative right so really they would never oppress you they're not racist they don't want kids in cages but they were pro-life and that was the only pro-life candidate so by association you're assuming that person's in lockstep with that

other person which i'm not in lockstep with biden i voted for him i'm not in lockstep with anyone i voted for i wasn't in lockstep with obama when he was anti-gay marriage so i'm not in lockstep with Biden. I voted for him. I'm not in lockstep with anyone I voted for. I wasn't in lockstep with Obama when he was anti-gay marriage. So I'm not going to carry out everything this person I'm associated with is, but we do assume the worst that the other person is carrying the mantle of everything. I think that's really important. And I think that there's this jump that has become a norm. If you're talking to someone and they voted for Trump, it's very hard for you, I imagine, to hear that and tell me if I'm getting this wrong.

No, no, yeah. To hear that and not feel like, actually, you were doing something that's against my interests. Yeah. But the next step should be to ask. Why? Why did you vote for Trump? Yes. Like, did you want to put people like me?

And you probably shouldn't ask it like this, right? Yeah. But we can get there. Come in the back door. Figure it out quick. You figure it out quick. When they ask where you're from. There's this thing called looping for understanding.

This changes the goal of the conversation, how you evaluate the success of a conversation. Many people feel like if I'm in a conversation, someone says something I disagree with, I'm letting myself and my people down if I don't disagree with them. There's that great Orna moment with the Palestinian girl. Yeah. She felt like she was betraying her family by trusting this Jewish doctor. Right. It's deep. But of course, you're not betraying anyone.

Nor is Orna Netanyahu. That's really important. So for looping for understanding, ask a deep question, just something with why. Number two, repeat back in your own words what you heard them say. And then number three, and this is the step we usually forget, but it's the magical one, ask them if you got it right. Because if you're talking to that guy and he's like, I love Trump, he's amazing. And you're like, I'm just wondering, can you tell me like- What do you like about him? Yeah. What do you like about him? He grabs him by the pussy. Yeah. Okay. So you're saying that what you like is that-

Is pussy. No, is that he grabs him by the genitals? Did I get that right? Yeah. So my guess is that if that person is like, yeah, you got it exactly right, then you know, I don't want to have a conversation with you. And you don't have to have a conversation with everyone. And most certainly many people will fall into the exact thing you're afraid of. Yes. I want to say I grew up in Georgia. I had no choice but to grow up giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, or I would not have had friends. I wouldn't have had anyone in my life. So I do think I am actually good at it. In fact, I'm like, there's no way you can possibly be racist.

So what is it? I'm not comfortable with the idea that these people are against me. Yeah. So I'm looking for all the evidence to the contrary, normally, if there's someone in my life. I don't really care that much about strangers. And I think that's something a lot of people, especially young people in their silos, have never experienced. They've never had to, for their own survival, find understanding. That is super duper interesting.

They're just in their own bubbles. Who cares? You don't have to understand anybody. You didn't have the luxury. Exactly. Right. You couldn't just retreat into your community and thrive. There wasn't. That didn't exist. I had to figure out a way to feel like there was love coming from people who weren't like me. Yeah. And I already know you've had this experience. Like you meet people, you like them, you go by their house, you're like, there's a Confederate flag in the garage. Ooh, okay. That's hard to make peace with. Does it mean to them what it certainly means to me? Does it mean they think a certain way about me? It doesn't seem like it.

Are they into the rebel spirit of hunting and fishing? And those are actually legitimate questions. The best way to confront them is to say, I'm going to ask you an awkward question. And I want you to know, I'm probably going to say it wrong, but I really want to understand you. Why do you have a Confederate flag? I would also add, because I'm scared. The vulnerability piece. Because I'm not asking you to judge? I would also add, because I'm scared. The vulnerability piece. Because I'm not asking you to judge you. I'm asking you because I'm scared. I think putting it that way would be great. I would actually- Go ahead and amend it.

You can break it into two pieces. They give you their response. You can sort of repeat it back, did I get that right? And then say, let me tell you why I asked, or let me tell you how the flag makes me feel, because it's clear it makes you feel something really different. Right. So guns. This happens with guns all the time. Yes. I think unless you're talking to an actual monster, if this little cute girl told me that thing makes her scared and it's my thing, my humanness would be like, oh, my gosh, I don't want you to feel scared. Like, you don't need to be afraid. Could they feel so defensive, though, that they were a part of making that person feel scared that then they

retreat i think they'd feel defensive if the question is why would you have that right yeah but if the question is why do you like that flight it really scares me this is why that's the right and then you're showing some vulnerability yeah exactly again unless you're talking to a fucking monster no one wants a guest in their property to be scared while they're there. So you might get the best. You're trying to send this message the same way that when we laugh, we're sending a message. I want to connect with you. You're sending a message. I actually want to understand you and I want us to be closer.

I'm not asking this question to push us apart. I'm asking this question to bring us together. And the other person can pick up on that. This is hardwired into our brain. We detect when other people want to connect. We detect authenticity. There's actually an awesome study that was done where the researchers recorded a bunch of friends laughing together and a bunch of strangers laughing.

And then they would play half a second to one second of the laughter. And the people who would listen to those tapes could tell with 90% accuracy the friends from the strangers. We just know. We know when someone really wants to connect with us. We know when they're being authentic. This is fun. Talking about talking.

You guys are very good. Okay, I do have a couple questions for you guys. But hold them because I'm still, you're still here to promote a book. We talked about Netflix. We talked about vaccines. I like that. How does the trial of Leroy Reed demonstrate that every conversation is a negotiation? Every dialogue that we have, often at some point, is what's known as a quiet negotiation.

And it's a little bit of a misnomer because we think of negotiations as trying to get the best deal. A quiet negotiation is totally different. And this is what most high-level negotiations are. It's about understanding what you want. If I sit down at the table with you and I understand what you want and you know what I want, we're gonna get to a deal faster, right?

Yeah. So a quiet negotiation often takes place. Leroy Reed is this guy, he's an ex-con. He had been arrested and put in jail once before. He had gotten out of jail. It wasn't clear if he knew he had committed a crime. He was the getaway driver for a friend who robbed a convenience store.

Part of it is that Leroy has learning disabilities. And so he sees in the back of a magazine, this thing that says, you can become a private eye. What you do is tend in $20 with this form. He gets something back. It contains a tin badge and instructions that he should run every morning and buy a gun. What? Oh boy. That third recommendation. Yeah. The first two steps are okay. Learn how to strangle infants. and buy a gun. What? Oh boy, that third recommendation. Yeah, yeah. It's a little haphazard. The first two steps are okay. Learn how to strangle infants. Yeah.

Excuse me? So he goes down to a sporting goods store. This is in Milwaukee. He buys a gun. He fills out all the paperwork, totally legal purchase, brings it back to his house. He puts the box in the closet.

It's unclear if he actually ever touched the gun. He never takes it out again. But then about six or seven months later, he's down by the courthouse and he's hoping that someone's just going to hire him to solve a crime. Oh no. This is so sweet. And a cop asks him for some ID. And the only ID that he has is the bill of sale in his pocket. So he hands it over to the cop and the cop says, have you ever gone to jail? And Leroy Reed says, yeah. He says, go bring the gun into the headquarters. I want to see it. Because there's a law that it's a felony to be an ex-con owning a

gun in Milwaukee. So he's put on trial. Oh no, this is upsetting. He's going to get sent back to jail. So they have the whole trial and then the jury goes into the deliberation room and there's only five or six jury deliberations in the history of America that have been taped. So this is one of them. And I got the tapes, I got the transcripts. The crowd is basically divided. Half the people want to send him to jail. Half the people are like, this is ridiculous. He shouldn't be punished for this. And they're just fighting with each other. And you have to come to a unanimous verdict. And there's this one guy who is a super communicator. Now, what's funny about him is that most of the people in the room are like stay-at-home moms. They work in factories. This dude, nobody liked him. He was a professor of literature at Marquette. His specialty was Derrida. He would talk about Kafka all the time

in the trial. Everyone was like, I didn't understand him at all. But what he knew is he knew how to listen to people. And more importantly, he knew that this negotiation had to take place. So what he does is he starts asking all these questions. Have you read Metamorphosis? Tell me, on French postmodernism, what do you think? One of the things we know about super communicators is they ask about 10 to 20 times more questions

than everyone else. But what's interesting is we don't even register it because they're questions like, hey, what'd you think of that? Oh, that's interesting. Why did you say that? What's going on there? They're questions that we hardly registered

that invite us in. So he's asking these questions and he's keeping track of, some people are here to talk about justice and some people are here to talk about safety. And justice is an emotional conversation. Safety is a practical conversation. So when I'm talking to this half the room,

we need to talk to each other on an emotional level. When I'm talking to this half the room, we need to talk to each other on an emotional level. When I'm talking to this half the room, and that's how he brings the two sides together, Leroy Reed absolutely would have gone to jail if this guy had not been in the room. Wow. And he goes free. And not because this guy thought he should go free,

but because he figured out how to get everyone to hear each other. He probably thought he should go free. So it's interesting. I reached out to him, and he's an elderly now. Okay. And his wife said, I don't think he's in a place to talk to you.

Right. So I asked her. I think that at the end of the day, he thought that Leroy Reed should go free. But if he had tried to use this technique to manipulate everyone else, they would have sniffed it out. Yeah.

They would have been like, this guy is just playing games with us. When you look at what he said, when you listen to what he said, it's really even handed. It's very neutral. I actually don't know what he thought because I couldn't tell until he cast his vote. That's cool. So when you get arrested, pray that you have a super communicator on the jury. Yes. But more importantly, recognize that actually all of us can do this. He didn't have some superpower. He just thought a little bit more

about communication. And what two conversations were actually being had. Exactly. Exactly how conversations work. And the fact that he was so awkward and kind of put on airs and everyone else didn't like him, it's probably why he was a super communicator. Right. Because he was in neither camp. He wasn't in an in-group to not be trusted. And my guess is that when he was younger, he had trouble communicating. He had to study how people talk to each other. He didn't have that natural charisma that attracts people to you. Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

If you dare. And so here's my question for you guys is... Brian. Oh, is that not the... Oh my God, that's so dark. Straight to the... When you guys were young, if I met you when you were 12 or 13, whatever your most awkward year is, would you be the communicator you are today?

Were you popular? I was a good communicator. That's why girls like me. I could talk on the phone with gals for four or five hours. How did you learn to do that though? Middle child, I'm solving debates and letting the tension out of situations and being able to recognize, well, these two people are fighting. Someone's got to step in and resolve this or lower the fucking temperature in here. That's my explanation. So you had to learn it. You were in a situation where learning that skill was important and that's why you became so good at it. It very much felt like for survival

it is required. And it's interesting you use the word survival, right? Because that's amygdala. What about you, Monica? Yeah, same. I could connect with anyone I had to because there was a big obstacle that I couldn't control. And so I had to control all the other parts, which was connecting and making myself invaluable to people. So yes, I do think so. So what's interesting about this, and this is true of most super communicators, is they are people who had to learn, who had to just pay attention to communication. Nobody's born a super communicator. The people who become super communicators are actually the ones who were bad at it initially, right?

Needed it. Who needed it, who had to study it. And that means any of us can study it. Yeah. And it becomes an instinct. The point of the book is to let these instincts out. Well, that's the last story I'm going to make you tell because it's exactly that point. Tell me about Agent Lawler recruiting spies on a terrible job he was doing. Yeah. So I love this guy. His name is Jim Lawler. That's his actual name. Kind of convenient for a CIA agent, Lawler.

It's like chicken or the egg. Yeah. I'd say egg. Fry him. Ew, stop saying that. He writes spy novels now. Oh, perfect. Yeah, so you can find him on Amazon.

So he gets hired. He's like in his early 30s. He wanted to be a CIA agent so bad. He had failed at everything else. He got into law school. He had totally mediocre grades. He goes in for the interviews. And basically everyone who interviews him is like, I don't understand why the hell you're

doing this. You're not going to get selected. You have no military background, no language ability, no special skills. And yet this one guy is like, there's something special about you. I'm going to let you become a CIA agent. Well, he had flown himself to DC on his own dime. And he said, ultimately in the interview, after a failed run at what he thought the guy would want to hear, he ultimately said,

I really want meaning in my life. And I think this would be it. He said something authentic. Right. And he connected with this guy. Invulnerable. I don't have meaning in my life. Yeah. So they send him to Europe and Jim would never tell me where he was posted in Europe or any of the other countries, but you'll figure it out. I did. If you read his book, Holland's Surprise, you'll get a sense of it. As I walk past the canals. So he goes to Europe and he spends an entire year trying to recruit people and he is terrible at it. People threaten

to report him. He's going to get deported. Seen as a pervert probably. Yeah. He's so bad at it. Everyone else in his class who was over with him are like so good. They're so suave. One of his colleagues is like, look, this woman's coming into town. She works for the foreign ministry of her middle Eastern country. Get to know her. So he manages to bump into her at a restaurant bump with quotes, right? Really quick. As I was reading it, I was like the first rule they should tell all these people is anyone who you accidentally meet get them out of your life i know anyway sorry but i was thinking that when i read that like bumping in is a strategy that's kind of how i feel i so i don't like strangers maybe they're all cia's you don't want to be an operative you'd make a pretty good operative she is an operative

he tells her he's an oil speculator. He gets to know her. They go to lunch together a bunch of times. They go sightseeing together. And eventually he's like, he tells his bosses, I think I'm recruiting this spy. She comes from a country that had recently had a revolution involving religious radicals. You probably can guess which one it was. It was late 1970s, early 80s.

And so he has dinner with her privately. And he says, look, look, I'm not an oil speculator. I work for the CIA, but you've told me a bunch of times how depressed you are because your government is now being run by these chauvinists. And by the way, the US wants the same thing. We want to empower people. We want women to be empowered in your country. Work for me, for the CIA. And she listens to him and she starts crying and gripping the table and just shaking her head, no, no, no, and just freaks out and is like, no, I cannot do this. They are going to kill me. You have put me at such danger just by befriending me. She leaves. So he goes to his bosses. He's like, by the way, this has been a total miserable failure. And his boss is like, no, I already told Washington, D.C. you recruited her.

If you do not bring her in, you're going to get fired. Or killed. Yeah. Sounds worse. Who knows? Yeah, I know. So Lawler's like, I don't know what the hell to do. And he calls her a couple times and she won't even pick up.

And eventually she picks up and he's like, look, just have dinner with me one more time. You're about to leave to go home. Can we just have dinner with me one more time. You're about to leave to go home. Can we just have dinner? And he actually tells her, I'm going to take you to this really fancy restaurant to kind of like bribe her to come.

And he's like writing down all these ideas of ways to recruit her and every single one, he's like, there's no way you can convince someone to take a suicidal risk, right?

He's like, I'm terrible at this. I wanted this career and it turns out I am not cut out for this career. They go to dinner. She's really down because she's like, I came to career. And it turns out I'm not cut out for this career. They go to dinner. She's really down because she's like, I came to Europe to try and figure out what to do the rest

of my life, to be a force for good. And everything's the same. I'm about to go home. I hate being home. And Lawler decides to try and make her feel better. Start telling her stories. And remember that time we went sightseeing and little jokes and she like kind of laughs but she's not into it and then they get to dessert and Lawler's like should I try one more time and he's like if I do she's gonna walk away this isn't gonna work I'm gonna get fired I guess I'll just have an honest conversation with this person and he starts telling her all about how disappointed he is in himself he's like I thought I was gonna be a great CIA officer there is something missing in me I see it in other people. I am bad at this.

I tried to recruit this one person from the Chinese embassy. And basically they were like, I'm going to report you immediately if you talk to me again. I am terrible at this job. I know the disappointment you are feeling because I feel it in myself and I felt it my whole life. And this was the thing that I thought was going to change it. And it turns out I'm just disappointing myself again. And he's not trying to recruit to. Yes, not manipulative.

He's just being honest with her. This feels like a love story. Me cute? Yes, it does. She starts crying and he's like, oh, I'm such a jerk. And by the way, he has to describe everything that happens in the conversation back to his bosses. And he's like, I'm going to turn in this report and they're going to massacre me. They're going to all gather into a room and laugh as they read it.

Yeah. So he reaches over and he's like, I'm so sorry. Don't cry. Please don't cry. And she says, I can do this. This is important. And he's like, what? And she's like, I think I can help you.

And he is so inexperienced that what he says next is, no, no, no. You don't have to do that. You don't have to. I don't want you to help me. She's like, no. For the first time, she heard what he was saying, which is, you can help your country. Like, we want to help your country. And she hears that.

She goes into a safe house two days later to get training in covert communications. Oh, my God. For the next 20 years, she's one of the best sources in the Middle East. Wow. And Jim Waller ends up being one of the best recruiters that the CIA has ever had. He actually trains other people how to recruit now. Wow. When I asked him why this happened,

he's like, I don't know. I've asked Fassima what changed your mind. What's funny is he had already learned the lesson. He had learned the lesson in the interview. But he didn't see it as a lesson. Yeah, which is what we all do. She was having an emotional conversation. He wasn't matching her.

He was trying to cheer her up. He was probably trying to explain to her the reasons she wouldn't be in risk. I'm going to solve your problem. Yeah, exactly. And so finally, when he matched her. I'm scared too. He's like, yeah, this life is a beat down.

It is. It's a tricky job because you really are asking people to risk their life. Absolutely. That's what's crazy. And also, I would have fallen in love with all of them. Oh my God. Are you feeling that too, Monica? No.

Like a restaurant in Paris where you guys are talking. Everyone's emotional because they're failing their country. You need to comfort each other and hold each other. Oh, my God. And then you get tinglys. You could have been so many things, but your sexual appetite is your kryptonite. I would have stood my way. I would like to see Dax Shepard a cia officer who just can never get beyond the

romantic appeal of the job i've never recruited one guy like what are you gonna i don't know i don't know you're like no we need more women oh wow well charles this was a blast thank you guys for having me on yes i hope everyone reads everyone reads Super Communicators, How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. I will say, too, there's all sorts of fun. I love when a book breaks up the stuff. There's like cute icons and different flow charts. And there's like a lot going on that keeps it very readable. It's a really fun read.

Oh, thank you. Yeah. I really appreciate that. Okay. Before we finish up. Yeah. Now it's your turn. Yeah.

Please. So having done this now for as long as you've done it, having had real success with it, like the world is telling you, you do this well. If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself either before you started doing the podcast or even when you were younger, you guys are communicating all the time and you're thinking about it so deeply in a different way. What's the big lesson that you wish you knew earlier? This is such an Adam Grant question. Yeah, which we normally say, we'll get back to you.

And I want to, because I like you so much, I want to give you an answer that falls into something that would be pleasing to you. But my true answer is nothing. You learn this by doing it a bunch. I would go back six years ago and and say talk less, but I wouldn't have talked less. I'm not a huge believer in that some tip would have altered my behavior. It's just like I needed time on the job. I needed the 10,000 hours. I needed to do it over and over again. And I think that's why we're getting better at it is just doing it.

And maybe the confidence that comes with that. And then you calm down a bit and you can listen better and talk less but i don't think you can shortcut that i think you just gotta fucking do it and then really get the confidence that allows you to calm down and what do you think it's hard uh you'd say like get a tea kettle right out of the gates because that's been last year's microwave which A microwave, which we still haven't done. Probably, I would say, don't get attached to it being one thing every time. Or lower your expectations a little bit, because this thing is going to be a ride. It's not just going to be at 100 at all. We did come out hot.

We did. That's the truth. Lightning struck us. It did. And we got really lucky in that way. It wasn't like it took us two years before people started listening. It was fast. But that's its own challenge, interestingly.

That's what I'm saying. We weren't practicing without anyone watching. We came out with four episodes in the first week and it was humongous and we didn't know what we were doing. But also even now when there's dips, it hasn't been so easy this whole time. There were moments that were so stressful, but they were only so stressful because of these expectations. If we didn't have any, it would have been totally normal. So, okay, I'm going to tell you guys what I hear you saying and tell me if I'm getting

this right. Dexter, you were saying basically learn to give in to what feels right. Learn to fall back on your instincts. And what you're saying is when we create false instincts, when we start saying it has to be like this, it has to be perfect this way, we have to satisfy the audience because we're so terrified that we might lose some of them. Yes. That in some ways what I'm hearing is that by doing it, you have learned to trust your ability to be super communicators. It's not the lessons.

It's learning to just trust what you can do. Is that fair? It is. But I do want to put a fine point on the fact that I think it's the difference between like telling your kids you can be anything is not effective. Creating situations where they can find out that they're capable of things does result in something so it's like even the notion of going back in time and telling yourself something i guess that's the premise i reject a little bit i don't think you can tell

yourselves i think you have to prove to yourself and do it but it's just a way for me what have we learned it's a wonderful question i should be be more compliant. As I said, Charles, I'm inclined to just go along with it, but I want to be dead honest in that I don't think there's shortcuts. I don't think you can go back in time and tell yourself stuff. I mean, it's super interesting because of course we can't actually do this. The mistakes I made when I was younger, if I went back and I told myself you're about to make this mistake, I wonder if I would have listened to myself. To your point. No. Because other people told me I was making a mistake, and I basically didn't even hear them.

Exactly. Because you were certain of how you were doing it. That's why you were doing it that way. Yeah. Okay, so here's my takeaway from this for listeners is go out, try and have a conversation, try and break through to someone, try and do something that feels a little risky, let yourself be vulnerable, recognize their vulnerability, and then don't go to dinner with Dax and try and recruit him because he will definitely.

No, I think just asking yourself the most basic question, which of these three conversations is happening is like 85% of it. I totally agree. Oh, wait, we are not having the same conversation at all. I think that's so powerful and helpful. I agree. Charles, it's hard for me to believe you weren't a super communicator prior to writing this book because you are such a beautifully connected individual.

That is very nice of you to say. I was terrible. I was the most awkward pudgy kid. I was bad at making friends. You figured it out. Yeah. I had to for survival. Yeah. Oh, well, this has been a blast. Everyone buy and read Super Communicators. And I can't wait to bump into you on the street and then have the most effortless and connected conversation because we both have the tools. Be well. Good luck with everything.

Stay tuned to hear Miss Monica correct all the facts that were wrong. It's okay, though. We all make mistakes. Hi. Let's do it as a whisper today. Okay. These are the facts. These are the facts brought to you by Whispers, the most refreshing breath mint in the business. Oh. That'd be a good name for a breath mint. Whispers? It's sexy. Ask me if I have a Whispers. Do you have a Whispers? Well, you don't need one, but I'll give you one anyways. That would be the tagline.

Oh, just became Old Spice. Well, no, because you'd want to alleviate the person's fears that their breasts smell. Oh, I see. I think it's hard to say, do you have a Whispers? There's something about the plural. Ted Seeger's. I like a plural because I'm from Michigan. Kmart's, Ford's,eger's. I like a plural because I'm from Michigan. Kmart's.

Yeah, you love that. Ford's. Walmart's. You love that. I'd be like, do you have a mints? No. But certs. I loved certs.

There you go. Tell me about your slacks. Tell me about your slacks. Okay, you want to hear about them? I do. They're so fun looking. They're so soft. Are they whispers?

Oh, I already resent this product. Why? Guess what they are. The Row. No. Prada. No. Kmart's.

It's not a brand I'm looking for. The answer I'm looking for is- Cashmere pants? Well, they are cashmere. Oh, they are. Oh my God. They're like a dress sweat pant, cashmere sweater pant. They're men's.

They're men's. Guess what size? Extra, extra small? Extra large. What are you talking about? Those are men's extra large? Yes. Can I ask you to stand up?

Is that inappropriate? Nope. Okay. And I ask you to stand up? Is that inappropriate? Nope. Okay. And what if you folded the under leg in by a- No, no, no. They're just, they're very- Should I take my shoe off? For a small extra large man?

No. Because they would not fit me. Yes, they would. Okay. Look. Yes, they do. Look. Okay, pull them.

Okay, now I'm seeing- Wow. So to the listener, she's pulled them out and they extend about seven inches past the tips of her toes. And they have a drawstring, so that's why I can wear them. Okay. You just pull them really tight. How did you find yourself buying a set of extra large men's sweater slacks? Well, as you said, they're very attractive.

Yeah, did you see them on someone specifically? No. I could see Pitt on someone specifically? No. I could see Pitt in those. Me too. Or Lewis Hamilton. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw them at Fred Siegel. They were on sale.

I just saw them from afar. Yeah, I was going to say, were you perusing the men's section? I was in the female section. And then I just, there's like a rack and i just saw these pants and immediately i wanted them i'm drawn to soft clothes and draw strings and draw strings and i didn't give a fuck what size they were oh and i saw they were extra large and i got a little nervous when i saw extra large well i will add that's a fred siegel saw extra large. Well, I will add that's a Fred Siegel's extra large. Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, I think...

Like a Kmart medium. Exactly. Like at Kmart, they would be considerably bigger if they were extra large. Okay. Yeah. I don't know what...

Why I had to say that. Yeah. Because if the viewer, or the listener rather, the armchairie, is picturing the extra large sweats they just saw at Kmart. I want them to know that's actually not the size you're wearing.

It's for their benefit. You'll see these pants in an upcoming picture. Yes, with a A-list actor. Celebrity. But I just also loved the color. It's a bluish gray. Like there's a very nice bluey. Just slight. Yeah. And so I tried them on and I was like, I'm going to make this work. When were you shopping at Francine Gold?

Yesterday? Yesterday. Yeah. At Sportsman's Lodge. Oh, there's one there. Yeah. Oh, did you go before or after the Super Bowl? Before. Okay. And did you have a little lunch before? I had brunch with Liz. Okay. At the Sportsman's Lodge? No. We went to Beachwood Canyon. Oh, did the little weird intersection at the top there? Yeah. Is that place fun?

I love it there. Oh, I want to try it. It's so cute. I was there Saturday. At Beachwood Canyon? Yes, because Kristen's Cleaners is there. Oh, yeah. There's a good Cleaners right there.

So we left Barton Street Bakery or whatever. Clark Street. Cafe 101, Clark Street. Just call it Clark Street. There was a young redheaded gentleman reading a book in front of Clark Street. Uh-huh. And then when I dropped Kristen off to run into the cleaners, that redheaded boy was reading a book in front of the cleaners. Oh, my God. run into the cleaners that redheaded boy was reading a book in front of the cleaners oh my god so i pulled up to him and i rolled down the window and i said sir where are we going next oh that's funny and he liked it because he also saw us there he goes you're following me and i go oh

for sure yeah you were at both places before us that's why i'm asking you where we're going next he's a glitch in the sim that's so he was also probably still back at clark street reading his book definitely he's a duplicate that's why he has a red head uh that's like did you punch him and see if he cried no but i gave him an aesthetic really quick oh wow and he did respond differently oh my gosh dad big mistake big mistake daddy did you have to wait a while to get into beachwood there's always a huge line it was a huge line um i put my name and i thought i was gonna she said 20 minutes which i already thought was not going to be accurate i thought it was going to be like an hour based on how many

people but there's a cool vintage store next door uh-huh so i put my name in went to the vintage store and then i got called in within five minutes they have your phone number you scan and you put your name in. And they text you. Oh, that's great. It's really great. There was a long line at Barker Street. It's weird because you love it so much.

But it feels disrespectful that you won't call it by its name. I don't like the name. I think it's a weird rebrand. Why don't you just keep it Cafe 101? Because it was bought. So it's not fair to the people who spent their money. They should have bought the rights to the name as well. No, Clark Street Bakery. I talked to

Max about this. I found some stuff out. Clark's bakery itself is, I forget all the details. Okay. I did forget. Sure. But it was an existing bakery, big institution. In LA? Yeah. Okay. Ding, ding, ding. Langer's, earmark. In LA? Yeah. Okay.

Ding, ding, ding. Langer's, earmark. Go ahead. Oh, okay. I went to Langer's last week. Oh. I told you that, right? No.

Oh, yeah. It was like rainy, middle of a rainy day. Have you ever been? I've never been, and that's an LA institution. 76 years old. Wow. Yes. Best corned beef and pastrami in Los Angeles. Where is it?

Is it downtown? Sorry, I didn't say. It's right across from MacArthur Park. Okay. Iti in los angeles is it downtown sorry right across from macarthur park okay it's in the which is where exactly it's like yeah almost downtown okay but it's 76 years old they have not updated the aesthetic so a couple things were happening it was raining which is not la yeah right like where i was walking in there was a river running down it was more than raining it was a river running down the street. It was more than raining.

It was like monsooning here. Yeah. Monica Monsoon. Ding, ding, ding. We already know it. There's already been shirts. We've been talking about it a lot. So it already is like,

I feel like I'm in New York City because why is it raining so much? And I'm kind of downtown-ish, so the architecture is different. And then I walk in and it is, it's a time traveling experience. I sit down at the booth by myself. I brought my Buddhist book to read.

Oh. And I'm planning on reading, but I can't because the service is too good. So the woman says, can I start you with something to drink? And I say, yeah. She literally turns her back and then she turns right back around.

She's holding a huge Diet Coke. It's like the fucking machine was behind my head of the booth in her little stand. And then I hit her with my order, which was the combo platter of pastrami and corned beef. And I wanted a side of potato salad

and coleslaw. And I wanted two eggs over easy. Pick up my book to read. That meal is on my table within three minutes. And everything's perfect. Do you think that was a glitch, too? Oh, could have been.

Real glitchy week. Oh, my God. But I sat there, and I felt like I was in a Bukowski short story. I was eating a big platter of pastrami and corned beef in a 76-year-old L.A. restaurant with rain outside. Oh, I like that. I was in heaven. Then I saw a cute younger couple taking a picture of their meal so i was like oh they know langers institution this is

their first time and then i saw them at the register and i said first time to langers and they said yeah oh my gosh and they were really excited but everyone else in there it looked cast out of a wikowski short story okay i don't know where these people live in LA. They were older. They were dressed like my grandparents. It's real human beings, not Hollywood people eating in this. I mean, really, it was a time travel. That's great.

I recommend going to Langer's. It's so fun. What do we think are the top five LA institutional restaurants? But before we do that, while you're thinking. Yeah. Look at my, look at Liberty right now. Shit bear? Don't comment.

Don't move him. Don't move him. Just look at his positioning. He's on the toilet. Well, shit bear is shitting. Yes. He's hanging his buns over the side of a Lucite box and letting it plop. Yeah, he's just like in the zit.

And he wanted to be close to the tissue paper. The tissue, yeah. Because he wanted to learn. He's learned his lesson. He doesn't think he should wipe with his body. That's right. Well, and or he's run out of space to wipe with because he's completely covered in shit now. Now he's holding some tissue getting ready.

We should put a little chocolate right here. No, he's perfect as he is oh man all right anyway so oh top restaurants institutions institutions two right off the bat langers already spoke of philippe's that's the i they might even be older see how old philippe's is rob that's also famous french dip also downtown yeah closer to chinatown were you you didn't work that day on chips we shot down there it was really fun fun how old's philippe's 1951 okay so 73 years old. Okay. So just three years after Langer's. Wow. Which ones are you going to add? I'm going to add Musso and Franks.

Of course, great call. Musso and Franks, old steakhouse in Hollywood. And probably Dantanas? Yeah, I wonder what, I feel like they probably opened in the 60s, is my guess. 1927, actually, for Philips. For Philips, 27. I thought they had they were nearing a hundred year anniversary okay a hundred years i know they were doing something maybe for

like their 90th anniversary and they were selling the french dips at the price they were 90 years before for like a really limited time wow what a cool thing that That is cool. Your 20 cent French dip or something. D'Antanas is 1964. Okay. More recent, but I think still it counts. At this point, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's over 50 years old. Yeah.

Okay, so. Mousseau and Frank's is a really good one. That's a good one. That's in Bukowski stories a lot. 1919. Mousseau and Franks? Wow. Whoa.

125th anniversary this year. Mass pass. Unreal. So we have one slot left. I should go eat at Mousseau and Franks. It's been, I think I've only eaten there once or twice, and I don't think I liked steak at the time. And so I think I should go there.

Okay. Have you been there recently? Mousseau and Franks, I went last year once for a martini, and that's the time that this old man, he probably worked there from the beginning. I paid. It was Jess and I. I paid. And he kept giving the bill to Jess and returning the credit card. Thank you, sir. And then after the tip, oh my gosh, thank you so much to Jess. To Jess. And he was, after the first time, he looked at me and I said, don't do it.

Okay. Don't do it. You can handle it. You can handle it. It's fine. And then the second time, the blood is like starting to burble. Yeah, hair trigger. Yep.

And by the third time, he couldn't. He said, it's her, bro. Ah. And what'd that guy say? He just said, oh. He didn't know what bro meant. Yeah, he was like, that's a woman that can't be. Right. Yeah, he was very confused.

And the tiny one at that wearing extra large pants. His head exploded. Yeah. I think he just said. I would be collapsed from a heart attack in that moment. Well, that's why I was trying to, I was like, it's okay, he's old. But also, this is the messiness of being human. Yeah.

I told him not to, and I didn't want him to. Right. But then when he did that, he was standing up for what was right. Yep. Jess was. Yep. I liked it.

Sure. You know, even though- Yeah, it's just the contradictory nature of us humans. Yeah. Speaking of heart attacks and being spooked, were you watching the game closely enough to see Travis Kelsey attack his coach? He, like, yelled at him? He, like, grabbed him.

Like, he bumped into him and grabbed his arm. And I felt, hey, I don't really care. It's sports, whatever. But that man's older. And the look on it, he looks he looks so confused like what just hit him i was like that could have caused a heart attack oh okay two things i'll say when i i wasn't watching that closely i i think that's now like a meme oh it is yeah it's already upset about it no it's just like everyone puts their own words on it and whatever yeah and um uh and that guy i i don't Yeah. And that guy, I don't like the way it looks, right?

I don't like when people are yelling at other people. Uh-huh. But also, I don't think you should probably have a heart attack in the middle of a football game. You should be ready for intensity. Yeah, I just think he was very much concentrating on what was happening on field. I think they just had a humongous fumble, which was going to fuck them up. And he's like looking out there.

And all of a sudden, you know. Trav. Again, no, look, I'll defend him as well. Let's acknowledge the world we're in. Exactly. This is sports. You know, you can't want it to be a Unix boys choir or whatever and also the Super Bowl. So I have great tolerance for all of it.

I just got sincerely scared for the man that he might have a heart attack. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about the Super Bowl. So I have great tolerance for all of it. I just got sincerely scared for the man that he might have a heart attack. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about the Super Bowl. Oh, I mainly sat outside by the fire. Oh, you did? Yeah. Nice cozy fire outside? Yeah. Yeah. I went to the Hansons. They do a big Super Bowl party every year, which is always very fun. And normally I am at least sitting in front of the game. To watch the commercials. Yeah, but for some reason. Was there betting on the commercials? Yeah.

I just, all of a sudden, it was halftime. And my plan was to leave after halftime. And so I missed pretty much all of it. I did hear and then rewatch that there was a Ben and Matt commercial. Yeah. There was a Duncan commercial, Ben and Matt. There sure was. So, of course, people sent me that.

Of course. And I watched it, which I enjoy seeing them sure was. So, of course, people sent me that. Of course. And I watched it, which I enjoy seeing them. It makes me happy. Yeah, they're your guys. They're my guys. And what she says at the end of the commercial, Ben says, whatever, they're naming a drink after us. Yeah. And they are.

So, I'm going to have to get that. What's it called? Ben and Matt Mocha or something? I think it's like Dunkings or something, but it's Ben's drink. Okay. So I got to get it. Sure. I understand.

You get it, right? Where's the closest Dunkin' Donuts to us? I mean. They are in LA now, right? Yeah. Yeah, okay. I love a Dunkin' Donuts. So do I.

I'm not here to cast shade on Dunkin' Donuts. So do I. I also, I love their donut. No, exactly. I don't care about, people love their coffee. Right. I'm addicted to another brand, Starby's, shout out. Sure, you love that. No, exactly. I don't care about it. People love their coffee. I'm addicted to another brand. Starbee's, shout out.

Sure, you love that. Pre-commerce. Except Starbee's is not as, we've tried to do a flightless bird on Starbucks and they won't agree. But we have done one on donuts and Dunkin' did agree. So I like that. Sure, you gotta like them more for that reason alone.

But when I ate gluten, I would occasionally stop and do a Dunkin' Donuts. And this is occasionally, they don't make a ton of them and they're rarely in stock, but they do have a chocolate filled one that's like a chocolate, it's like an icing.

It's not a custard. Interesting. And I like it a lot. Okay. Yeah, very good. Is it glaze? It's powdered white on the outside. And then it's got like,

it literally looks like when you're putting it on a cake, the icing. And the little device leaves the weird marks, the corrugatedness. Yes. That's hanging out of its asshole. It looks like it has a butthole. Well, just where they filled it. Yeah. And they fill it good.

So it comes out. So it looks like a little butthole with chocolate whispers in it. Is it a, is it a sir is it does it have an open no hole it's closed it's a closed like like a jelly filled one would be but in this case it's icing okay it's really good that sounds nice it doesn't really sound like it's gonna be for me okay which is probably good since it's too hard to have we wouldn't want to go in there and there'd be one left actually Yeah, actually, I would love that. Well, I know, but then we would be in a fight over it, but I'd let you have it.

I would take one bite and give you the rest. Okay. You would take the bite out of the anus of it, probably? Yeah, the poop part. Do you want to hear something very perverse? Yeah. I have taken a bite out of it, and then I stick my tongue in there before I take a bite, because that's where all the chocolate is seeping out.

Sure. I'll cut that. where all the chocolate is seeping out. Sure. I'll cut that. Okay. My donut is a chocolate cake donut from Dunkin'. That's a good donut. I love it. I love it. My best friend Gina and I would go a lot before and after cheerleading practice. Before and after.

Yeah. We could eat anything then. Yeah, because you were ripping through them calories. Yeah. Just bouncing and twisting. Ripping and tearing. Ripping and tearing. Rick, let's hear from Rick.

Okay, so what was I going to say? Did we earmark something? Yeah, last institution. Oh, that and then Super Bowl. Oh, yeah. I watched it with my father-in-law. Yes. Which is a very sweet experience.

How was it? That's our first football game we've ever sat down and watched as father and son. Seminal. And it was just the two of us. That's fun. Like, that could be awkward for a father-in-law and son-in-law. But it was really fun. Kristen and the girls drove home.

Because it was 7.30 by the time overtime started. They had to get home and get to bed for school. So they got in the car when overtime started and i don't know how this happened who told lincoln what but when they arrived at home lincoln was under the belief that the 49ers had won okay she had been crying in the car oh and then she had been workshopping some responses to the boys that were going to make fun of her today for being so vocally supportive of the chiefs and that they lost so she's already they were all as a family prepping i see what the what the retorts to the ridicule would be okay so they walk into the and by the way i saw the car pull up knowing they must have missed it right and i rewound it to the last

two plays which were insane fucking travis kelsey got that first down again you want him to be that guy he's gonna rough you up on the sidelines exactly yeah gets this incredible first down which pretty much they you go wow they're gonna have four shots to get six yards and then this incredible pass blah blah i had it queued up right to hit play when Lincoln walked in, knowing she'd want to know. She comes in. She's devastated. I go, what's the matter?

And she goes, they're going to make fun of me. And I go, watch this. I got a feeling, you know, and then showed her. And she was cheering. It was so funny to see how excited she was about a football game. Yeah, that's lovely. It was because of Taylor, right? Yeah, it's funny because Molly and I were talking about

how so many guys are really mad about all this. I know, it's crazy. And I was like, let's do our most generous exploration of what's going on. Of course, on the surface, why do you care that more people like football? That's great. Women.

And why do you care that women now like football and why are you mad at taylor that they're cutting to her she's not running the fucking editing board on the telecast she does no control over that why you mad at her and so we got over the like they're just assholes blah blah but i think this is the one i've concluded that i feel most maybe his highest percentage of what's going on we can assume that a lot of these guys have wanted their girlfriends to like football for so long and they've tried to explain what a great game it is and why it's so fun to watch it and the girlfriends had zero interest in it and now taylor starts dating a football player and all of a sudden their girls love football so it's like this other thing that like oh if she likes it you'll like it but if i

like it you'll have no interest in it i don't have those feelings but at least it attempts to explain why they're threatened by it okay didn't hold any water for you no i mean it it does act it does as a theory i think it's a great theory. I think it's a great theory. Okay. I think it's a very generous theory. Yeah. I don't think it's real. You think they just hate women?

Did I say that? Oh, no. I'm sorry. I didn't say that at all. That's like a strong thing to say. I've been around so many football people. Yeah. Men. No one there gives a fuck if the girls are into it or not.

Oh, okay. There's a lot of men with their girlfriends. And sometimes the girlfriends are into it, sometimes they're not. But I've never been in a scenario where the guy's like, wait, let me explain it to you. Or like, can we watch this together? Right. I've never seen that okay so i don't think there's this like fuck i just really wish my girlfriend and i could

could commiserate over football maybe they like that it's boys time that's what i do think okay and now the girls are on boys time yeah maybe the girls are like what's happening now uh-huh and then they're upset by that. Why isn't Travis playing? Why haven't they shown Taylor in 10 minutes? And I could see that being annoying. I could see that being annoying. Like, I don't want to explain this now. Right, right.

Well, that's a good theory too. I guess from me, like I love Formula One. Yeah. I would love it if you love Formula One. I'd love to talk about it with you. I want my daughters to watch it with me. That'd be so fun. They will occasionally.

So I'm not saying that I don't have this. I can imagine that I have been really wanting them to join me every Sunday to watch the races and talk about it. Yeah. And they have no interest in it. And then Taylor Swift starts dating Charles Leclerc. And then they're watching every race with me. Now, an evolved person would be like, well, great. I got what I wanted.

We get to share this together. That would be the adjusted thing to do. But I can imagine going like, God, I was begging them to watch with me and they don't care at all. But as soon as she is dating someone, now they want to do it. So just they value her a lot more than they value me. Would you really feel that way though? No, I'm saying I would get to the point where I'm just delighted they're not with me.

I think you're being very nice. I don't think you would have that hurdle. I think if someone was dating Charles or any of the players. The players? Oh, the drivers. They're watching Formula One calling them players. Right. That would be the first.

You might get annoyed. But I know that you would not care at all. I know you're trying to One, calling them players. Right. That'd be the first. You might get annoyed at it. But I know that you would not care at all. I know you're trying to. No, I would. But I'm also someone who has incredible amounts of love shown towards me. I have a lot of advantages. Okay.

That your average alienated, unemployed, hopeless dude has. Oh oh look i guess i okay let's take it out of this okay so i i really want you to watch mr and mrs smith yeah yeah i watched the whole thing this weekend oh it's all out all out eight episodes i watched every i watched it okay great i loved it i told you to watch it and i'm gonna I know. But let's say you weren't, right? Like, let's say you just, like, weren't watching it and weren't watching it and weren't watching it. And then I heard that it was Zazie Beetz's favorite show. Well, no, no, no. It can't be that.

Okay. Because that's the wrong analogy. Okay, it's Max Verstappen's favorite show. And then you're like, oh, fuck, like, I really gotta watch it. Yeah, you might be a little hurt. Okay, I would be hurt. But now, again, this really got to watch it. You might be a little hurt. Okay, I would be hurt. But now, again, this is not a good analogy. It's not a perfect comp?

No, because the reason the girls are watching is they want to see her. Well, I think they want to see her. But additionally, they want her boyfriend to win. They do. Yeah, because that's good for the whole team. Exactly. Team Swifty. It's not the same as an endorsement

or like now I'm interested in football. But like my daughter was like, she dyed her hair red. I know. She wants the Chiefs to win. For Taylor. Yes. Yeah, but she wants.

And so if you're a diehard Chiefs fan, you're like, you don't even want them to win for them. You want them to win for her. But shouldn't, if you're a diehard Chiefs fan, you're like, you don't even want them to win for them. You want them to win for her. But shouldn't, if you're a Chiefs fan, shouldn't you just be like, yes, we have more people on our side? Yeah. It's like liking the band before they blow up. Like you have.

Ownership. Feeling of ownership. It's like fair weather fans. And now you feel like all these people. Yeah. That's understandable. It is. I just. And again again it's a huge umbrella

and there's misogyny and there's weird right-wing conspiracies there's a lot going on there's a bunch of different reactions to this weird phenomena that's happened i just also i'm like stop caring about it like the men that are really upset and like talking about it on fucking fox news, come on. I know. It's crazy to me they're not embarrassed that they're talking about it. That to me is like, you're so mad about them showing her that you're now talking about her and you're creating. I don't know.

Participating in something you're very judgmental of is kind of funny. Like, even you and I were gossiping about somebody and I said, well, let's just own the fact that we're gossiping about them. So like, you know. Well, we were talking about them. Yeah, Taylor and- Yeah, we were like, it was this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were talking about them. But we were talking about how everyone's talking about them and how I'm actually worried. Right. I have a fear that she's too on top of the mountain right now and everyone's gonna bring her down turn on her and it's not feeling protective i'm feeling very protected i'm feeling scared for her i want to like her to come hang uh-huh sit with bear

yeah and just like be safe for a little bit yeah because people are scary out there yeah they're mean yeah it's cute that you feel protective of her. You're very much a Swifty. I feel protective of a lot of people. Yeah. In this life. I went the other way. I was like, God, if they lose, he's going to have his own journey of having lost the Super Bowl.

I only know what it's like to, like, my movie didn't open. And I know that takes me months to get over. Yeah. if they lose the super bowl they're gonna take that on personally yeah and so i was just predicting someone like i'll use myself if i started dating someone three months ago and then my movie came out and tanked and they had to deal with me working through that for the next three months that's a quite a stressor on a new relationship. I started thinking if they lose this game,

what happens to this relationship? Because that's just, that's a big moment to process in a new relationship. Yeah, I wonder. They would have blamed her, right? That would have been a new element too. Oh, 100%. Like, so he'd be wrestling with all this stuff. Then all the fans would be saying

he didn't perform because of her. And then so she would have her own issues she's got to navigate. It would be a lot if they lost. I mean, she would for sure get blamed. I mean, that's true. You've got to blame the woman. I think she's smart enough. It's Jada's fault.

She would have wrote a song. It's Jada's fault. Yeah, it's always the woman's fault. It's the woman's fault if he lost. It's her fault that they've won somehow. It's not to her credit if they win, but it is her fault if he lost. It's her fault that they've won somehow. It's not to her credit if they win, but it is her fault if they lose. It's like something they've overcome that she's there.

It's crazy. Anyway, the NFL gets it. They're the reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they're not going to not give the people what they want. They're in the business of giving people what they want. They've made so much money. They haven't made more money.

Yeah, they have. There's a whole, there's a whole stat. Can you look it up? Well, just the TV rights have already been sold for the next seven years. Like merchandise? I don't know. I mean, ratings, I guess. I know, just, I'm only saying they're not compensated for that.

Like the money they made from the Super Bowl was made three years ago when they signed this contract. There's no like real-time adjustments for them. They've reported that she generated more than $330 million for the NFL and Chiefs. Yeah, according to Apex Marketing Group, Swift attended 12 games leading up to the Super Bowl. So, also, people going. They weren't already sold out, those Chief games?

I guess not, or the ticket price just went up. Oh, that's possible. I'm just trying to figure, I'm not challenging you. I'm trying to figure out how they would have adjusted since everything's so pre-sold. That's all I'm trying to figure out. The AFC championship game saw some 55 million viewers making it the most watched ever. Yeah. I think she generated money for networks.

So merchandise sales, sponsorship, ticket sales, and social media. networks. So merchandise sales, sponsorship, ticket sales, and social media. CBS Sports reported Kelsey's jersey sales spiked nearly 400%, launching him into one of the top five selling jerseys in the NFL. Also, look, that guy was never on a commercial, and he's in

every commercial now. Now their podcast is also huge. She was on it the other day. She was? I think so. I saw some little videos. Oh my God. It's like, who can I date? Get them on here. Yeah.

Pit. I feel guilty. This is reminding me I feel guilty. Well, for Monday's episode, Bateman, where we talk about Ben and Matt, and I say I want to marry Matt. Then I saw the commercial, and I felt like, oh, damn it. I should never have said that. Because you're not positive.

I'm just not positive, and I don't want to have that out there in the world. Okay. But it is out there in the world. Yeah. I have guilt. I'm just going to say I have guilt. Okay. I'm glad we cleared that up.

Yeah. You rescind that. Yeah, I want to say I have guilt. Okay. I'm glad we cleared that up. Yeah. You rescind that. Yeah. I want to take it all back. Gotcha. And I'm not saying I take it all back to say the opposite. I just take it all back. Right. You have children and you picked a favorite and you realize you don't have a favorite. That's just not right. Yeah. Okay. Well, a couple of facts. This is for Charles Duhigg. Oh, he was really fun. Yeah, I liked him a lot. And sweet.

But pause just super quick on Mr. and Mrs. Smith. It's so good. Oh, I can't wait. I'm really excited. Did you start it? Yeah, I finished it. You watched the whole thing too? Did you like it?

Yeah. It's like tonally, it's so fun. I will, if I can be fully, can I be honest? Yes. I know you love boys, some boys, so much. I will, if I can be fully, can I be honest? Yes. I know you love boys, some boys so much. And I know you love Donald Glover. You love this boy so much. I do, I do, I do.

But I know that you really love some boys. Would you agree? Yeah. Yeah. And so you've told me how great it is. And I'm really inclined to think it is. That is my expectation. But I have wondered how much you've inflated how great it is because you're so smitten with Donald.

And will I be able to experience that? It's mostly Atlanta team that made it. Oh, it is? As well. Oh, cool. Hero. Same director. Oh, wow.

He's awesome. So this is exactly what I just said. But I believe, I can, this isn't baseless. So the one show that this happened on that I can remember the most, and I think I even got you to admit this a little bit. What? Well, hold on. Give me a fair dang card.

I want to hear. Was that show Lupin. I loved Lupin. I know you did. I know you did. I know you did. And it's, okay, go on. Go on. And the guy is so attractive and fucking sexy.

He is. Yes. And so when I watched it, I was like, it's an okay show. If I were watching someone I was in love with, like Alicia Vikander in Ex Machina. Okay. I'm not talking. Go on. But the look on your face.

I'm listening and reacting. I'm not interrupting. I think that one got a little bump. I think that one got a little bump. Okay. Okay. I think. I don't know what to say. Can i own it on my side of the street

maybe they'd be helpful alicia vikander you just said that one like ex machina affected men in some way right in a couple of the early scarlett johansson movies a lot of women i knew were like yeah it was good and a lot of guys were like oh my god that movie because something was really happening you know you're like you're in love with the person you're watching. And it's like. Yeah, but it's also a little, I mean, it's not because you're owning it on your side of the street too. But to say like that I couldn't be objective about a thing because of a sexy factor.

But that's a male female. We can't make it that because I think men do it too. Right. I really liked that show. I thought it was a sexy show because he was sexy. Yeah. But there are a lot of things I watch where there's someone who I find extremely attractive or sexy. And I can enjoy it for that and know that this isn't great.

I also know a bunch of people who watch Lupin of of all genders who liked it so i don't but i i know specific so i had a specific issue with it you and i have a very consistent opinion of writing we used to watch a ton of shows together you and i would generally look at each other at the exact same moment and we would have had an issue with the writing like that was too convenient or they just broke their own rule yeah you and i are on that that happens to be i think the thing that we're most in sync on okay so lupin was just like so grossly convenient at all times that it was like as a from a writing standpoint i was like oh my god everything's so easy and then that happened that happened how is this person a superhero But it's not a superhero show.

So not everyone would have this problem, but I definitely think you and I would have had this problem. So then I was like, why didn't the writing bother her? And I was like, oh, it's the same as me watching early Scarlett Johansson. I'm like, I'm pretty distracted by this thing.

And I'm probably not as critical of this other thing because my attention has gone to this thing maybe also we have to leave some room for us having different different opinions on different things and I I just I thought that show was so fun I did not yeah I didn't need it to be a hundred percent like I could buy into what it was early and then just very much enjoy that ride without being critical of it of those things that maybe I wouldn't

well I'm susceptible to it I'll just keep it to me I'm susceptible to enjoy a movie if I am having very strong feelings about the lead of the movie I am susceptible to that

yeah well anyway I really loved Mr. and Mrs. Well, anyway, I really loved Mr. and Mrs. Smith. I can't wait to see it. Not just because of him. She's incredible in it. Is she a new fresh face or has she been in a bunch of other stuff? She was on Pen15.

That was a big show. And their chemistry is great. It's very natural. Is it sexy like the movie was? I assume a lot of it is improvised. It is sexy. I find very natural. Is it sexy like the movie was? I assume a lot of it is improvised. It is sexy. I find it very sexy,

but more real sexy. Uh-huh. So I think I'm curious about what you think. I can't wait to watch it. I'm curious. But now I'm nervous that you're going to watch it with that in mind. No.

Okay. Not at all. Okay. Not at all. How can you be sure? Because I wouldn't make myself not like something because I'm trying to prove that you are. I think it would be a subconscious. No, I think I'm pretty in charge of that realm of my thinking.

Okay. We don't know what we don't know. By the way, I didn't decide that's what was going on. I just said, I wonder. Because I know you're super smitten with him, as am I. Right. I guess it shouldn't be any different. You and I both love him.

So whatever you're saying is going to be innate in that, it should be equal. If it's not, then that feels a little gendered. Well, you like boys and I like girls. That's a reality of this dynamic. But we both love Donald Glover and talk about him all the time and how sexy he is. You talk about sexy. Absolutely. But I don't ever go to a place where I want to be laying on a pillow next to his pillow and looking at him.

That's a zone that I don't have. Yeah. He's not Ben and Matt at him. That's a zone that I don't have. Yeah. He's not Ben and Matt to me. I haven't spent hours daydreaming about what my life would be like with him. Right. I just find him sexy. I think I remember some things you said

when that incredible video he made came out. You were having some very strong feelings at that point. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, I think you'll have to report back. Let me ask you this, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, I think you'll have to report back. Let me ask you this, though, because you feel offended by what I'm saying. Don't put that on me.

I don't feel offended. I'm just breaking it. I'm not saying you are. To me, it feels like I've offended you by suggesting that your attraction to someone might alter how you perceive. My objectivity. Yes. And that your attraction to someone might alter how you. My objectivity. Yes. And that feels offensive to you. Or it feels to me like I've offended you by suggesting that.

You have not offended me. But I am going to push back. Okay. Which is what I did. Okay. Push, push. Yeah. But now I need a new show because I watched that show so quickly.

I don't know if you're going to like this one or not. Okay. This is a very low percentage that I think you'll like it, but I'm loving it, which is I started Griselda. And you're loving it. I'm loving it. Mind you, I loved the first season of Narcos. The first one made by the brazilian filmmakers was fucking mind-blowing uh whoa mind-blowing this is the quote it starts with so good

i've only feared one man in my life and it was a woman named griselda pablo escobar oh i like that i Escobar is the baddest of the bad. He said, there's only one man I've ever been afraid of, and it was a woman named Griselda. I like that. Is it dark and edgy? Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's violent, and it's coke. They're marketing it weird.

The reason I think you might like it, Monica, is crazy violent and cokie, which you don't love. Yeah. Oh, it's crazy, violent, and cokie, which you don't love? Yeah. It is a woman in 1975 building a coke empire in Miami against all of these distributors who are like the most machismo Colombian. I do love that. Yeah, and she's just like indomitable. Yeah, that's cool. It's a fucking cool story.

Yeah, very. And she was known as the godmother. Oh. I've only been afraid of one man, a woman named Griselda. Yeah, I mean, it's also- It's like he's in on it. He's in on it, but he's also refusing to give up. Well, I guess it's at the time, too, in the culture.

They would never not have men at the top of the- It was only men until her. Yeah. That's cool. Back to our expert. Charles. Charles in charge. How did the national newspapers rank?

Okay. As of 2023, the newspaper with the highest print circulation in the United States in the six months running to March 2023 was the Wall Street Journal. No kidding. Yes. That wouldn't the Wall Street Journal. No kidding. Yes. That wouldn't have been my guess. Me either. Ranking second, New York Times, followed by the Washington Post. Washington Post.

Yeah. Spotlight. Oh, no. Remember that movie? Yeah, that was a good movie. Mark Ruffalo. Mark Ruff. The paper in the ranking with the highest year-over-year drop in circulation was the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

I'm sorry, Atlanta. I'm sad about that. Okay. There's a good article. Well, it's an opinion article, and I actually don't know if it's good. Because I looked up what's the biggest predictor of voting, and this is about the diploma divide. Oh, right.

And that being the biggest factor right now, which. College diploma. Yeah. Yeah. Because it used to be religion before that. That makes sense. Okay, I thought this was interesting about laughter. It doesn't always coincide with what's funny.

He was saying 80% of laughter is actually showing you're connecting. It's not that something's funny. Right. That's why it's so misleading for some people at work. They think they're funny. Yeah, they think they're funny. Especially if they're in power because the underlings are trying to show, I hear you, I'm with you, like me. I have witnessed that more in my life than probably anything else where

people that are famous and have status and have a lot of people doing their hair and makeup around them at all times have convinced themselves they're really funny. And it's so embarrassing. It is. By the way, this isn't like, I also saw it at GM, like the eighth level person thought he was times have convinced themselves they're really funny and it's that's so embarrassing it is by the way this isn't like i also saw it at gm right the eighth level person thought he was rodney dangerfield bosses like bosses in general need to be super aware of this minimally just hack off 30 of how funny you think you are and more than funny smart charming like all of it all the things that you start to think about yourself. Yeah.

It's probably exacerbated. How are they to know? That's what's confusing. Before you have that, it's a real response. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, you trust that that response is real. And then all of a sudden, everyone's laughing around you, but you haven't gotten any funnier. I know.

Okay, let's see. Well, you'll like this. Playfulness is considered the basis of humor. Oh. A play with ideas, this. Playfulness is considered the basis of humor. Oh. A play with ideas, but not all play is humorous. Cheerfulness is considered the temperamental basis of good humor, a disposition for laughter and for keeping humor in face of adversity, but mostly overlaps with the socio-affective.

I don't want to, this is weird. I don't, I feel like it's trying to. This is weird. I don't. I feel like it's trying to science-ify something that's magic. That's true. I'd rather leave playful as playful. Okay. I'm not asking you to stop. I'm just saying I agree with you. And I think that's my issue with it is like, let's not try to break this down into a social science.

I agree. Playfulness. We know what it is. Also, it's a reflex. Also, people laugh when they're uncomfortable people laugh for all kinds of reasons but yeah it's a social tool right oh you said that i'm a cia operative and i shouldn't have blown your cover yeah sorry about that that was a big are you in trouble over at langley i have some answers i have to i um this is probably

i know well this is part of my um fantastical ego oh uh part of my fantastical ego is that i have i guess like the guy who wrote the book dangerous mind or whatever it was clinty made a movie out of it sam rockwell played him there was a game show host who later wrote a book when he was in his retirement claiming to have been a of a dangerous mind yeah something like yeah that he had been a cia operative but it is the perfect cover like i could be kind of anywhere in meeting with high level people and you're just not gonna think i'm a cia operative right how can i be doing both it's a good cover wait Wait, what do you mean? Wait, what? Say it again. I was a problem.

Like, I can travel through the world. Yeah. And it doesn't look suspicious. Oh. Like, it's conceivable I would be at the parliament somewhere. Seth Meyers, he was in Israel and met the prime minister and had Googled the prime minister to make sure he knew everything about the prime minister. And then at a certain

point he went to a bookshelf and he said let me show you this and he walked by the prime minister's computer and he saw on the screen of his computer he had seth meyer's wikipedia page no yes yes this is great no no no i mean vice president i don't know i don't know okay let's just be careful because that's a big guy so So that's not who it was. This is someone really high up in the Israeli government. This is a year and a half ago. Okay. But just the laugh he had when he saw that that person had done the same thing he had done,

which is gone to Wikipedia and had this meeting anyways. Like that's the comedy of being high status. It's like, yeah, that person's high status. I'm high status. We should meet. Both of them. For no reason. No one knew who each other was.

They weren't really that high, whatever the case. My point is I could end up anywhere, and it wouldn't be suspicious. Right, but also, on the flip side of that, you're going to go noticed. Right, hiding in plain sight. Yeah, hiding in plain sight. Yeah, hiding in plain sight. I could woo a woman that's high up in the Russian government. I could meet her at a hotel. She'd be thinking she was meeting a celebrity.

We could have a little affair. She could try to impress me and tell me some stuff that happens at work. I could get that real information and report it back to Langley. And she would never leave thinking, oh, I bet he had wooed me intentionally to get information. She would think I was a celebrity. Then it would be in the tab. People would take pictures, and it could be in the tab. You have to assume I'm not married or something in this case.

Oh, I thought you were saying you. The point is, I'm famous. You're a Russian ambassador. And you're at this nice hotel in London, and I am too. And we start chatting at a bar. Now, normally that ambassador knows if I'm being wooed by a foreigner, I got to have my guard up because they're probably work for the CIA. Whereas in this case, my celebrity would transcend that. It would overpower that. They would just go like, oh, wow, I'm meeting George Clooney.

Right. Your guard would go down. Oh, this person's not bad. I know what this person is. Yeah, yeah. It's a great cover. That's what that movie was about? It was about this guy's claims that he was working. He claims to have gone to other countries and assassinated people while he was a game show.

Wow. Yes. Chuck Beres. You know, I think this might be just lore or maybe I made it up. I don't think I did. But I think my mom was recruited. She didn't do it, or maybe she did. But she was groomed as an intelligence asset.

That's also another good way to go is to tell people that you were recruited. And then what happens? Because then you're like, well, and she obviously didn't do it. But you, like, they're like half telling a truth. Yeah. So that it becomes more plausible. Like, if you're like, what's the CIA? Then you're obviously, you're in it.

Yeah, yeah. I think I. Tell me your mom's story. Did a handsome man try to woo her at a cocktail bar? I'm nervous it's all made up. Okay. Should I text her?

No, let me call her. No. Yes, it's so much more fun when I call her. I don't know how she's feeling. Well, I'll find out in a second. Hey, Dax.

How are you? Hi, beautiful. Mom, I'm here too. You're on the show again. Okay. Hey, Dax. How are you? Hi, beautiful. Mom, I'm here too. You're on the show again. Okay. Mom, did I make this up, or did you kind of get recruited by the CIA? Did I make it up? Do you need me to repeat that? She's across the room.

Yeah, I can barely hear you. She wants to know. She vaguely remembers hearing that maybe someone attempted to recruit you from the cia oh no no no no this was no nsa that was when i was in college i we interviewed for a job with the nsa and i wasn't a citizen at the time so you know i couldn't i mean it kind of just oh it was almost the opposite story which is you would have liked to have worked for the nsa but I couldn't. I mean, it kind of just went flat. So it was almost the opposite story, which is you would have liked to have worked for the NSA, but you couldn't because you weren't a citizen. Well, if you interviewed, did they want you?

Well, I didn't find out until the end. I mean, the interview went well. Right. I didn't find out until almost the end of the interview that you have to be, you know, you have to have been born. Well, I mean, I think I don't even know. I think you just had to be a citizen I don't you can be a naturalized citizen too but at that time I wasn't so have you ever fantasized about

what your life would have been like had you become an NSA agent not really could you spend the afternoon doing that and then tell me what you came up with? You could have been flying all over the world. A real good friend of mine, we both kind of did it, and he actually went to work for NSA. I'm glad that that fell through because it's a very secret. You can't tell people anything about what you're doing. Wink, wink. I think I just got what you're saying, which is you did get the job, and now you're sworn to not tell us you got the job.

Wow. Yeah, okay. But does he keep his name? Yeah. Oh, you're allowed to keep your name? I mean, it's not like that. I mean, it's not like the CIA. I don't think it's like that.

I feel like I'm privy to your guys' relationship when you're back at home, Monica, where you're yelling from your bedroom and your mom's trying to hear you. Yeah. Yep, this is what she does. Yeah, you're always like, do you want tea? What? Yeah, that's pretty much it. Did you watch the Super Bowl, Nerm super bowl normie yeah yeah we watched that it was a pretty good game ended up being one who are you rooting for kansas city kansas city yeah um two questions did monica tell you i've tried to send you barbecue three times now in that

fucking restaurant i don't yes i don't know why that restaurant's on postmates because i've ordered it three times and it's beenmates because I've ordered it three times and it's been declined after I've ordered it three times. So I see she didn't tell you that. So there's that. Secondly, did you have a favorite commercial? Oh, that one with Jennifer Aniston. Oh, Uber Eats.

That was really funny. Yeah. That was the best. And what was your favorite part of that one? That guy in the underwear. What guy in the underwear and what was your favorite part of that one that guy in the underwear what guy in the underwear that was hilarious oh god what was that

I don't know he just was I didn't even I mean it was just hilarious I didn't even care most of it I had something else on while I was watching but I just saw it he was walking into the room with a shirt and just an underpants. Yeah, I actually, I actually, I do. I mean, it was like he was walking into a break room at an office.

Yes, that is exactly what it was because he had forgot. He forgot how to put his pants on. Yeah, or something like that. I mean, but anyway, yeah, it was some good ones. What was the other media you were consuming at the same time? I was just watching something on YouTube. Oh, my God. You're like a millennial.

I get bored very fast. Uh-huh. Same with your daughter. She's already tuned out. I just saw her face. I don't know what we're doing anymore. We called about NSA. Oh, here we go.

Monica's got pretty good focus. Thank you, Mom. She and Ashok, they both have focus pretty well. Me and Neil, we're like sometimes all over the place. Uh-huh.

Thanks for sharing that. Well, I love you just the same. Thanks for always taking my calls, for real. It's so fun to call you and hear from you. Okay, thank you. Bye, Mom.

Bye. Bye. I love her. I would watch the game with her. I mean, I would tell her like, Nermy, shut those fucking things off. You got Mom. Bye. Bye. I love her. I would watch the game with her. I mean, I would tell her, like, Nermy, shut those fucking things off. You got too many things going on. You'll never get her to not do that. So when you guys are watching even, like, Dateline or something, she's running, like, three other things?

Yeah. Wow. No, one other. Her iPad. Okay. Yeah, she's always on her iPad with headphones. And do you feel like she misses a lot of what you guys are watching? Of course.

She has to, right? She's a human. She's not really watching it. She does this thing. I know she's doing it. Like if we start a movie or something, five minutes into the movie, she'll look up stuff about the movie. Okay. Right.

Go down a rabbit hole. As the movie is happening, she's like reading stuff about it. So she knows stuff. Oh, I hate that. Yeah. Natalie does that. Really? Trust me, nuts. Well, if she's like reading stuff about it so she knows stuff oh i hate that yeah natalie does that really drives me nuts well if she's not invested i've never heard of this i've never does that too when we were watching the plumbers the white house plumbers because it's historic and all of this stuff that's happening on screens really happened so it's like there's a flight and then all of a sudden we're going to find out the real answer of whether the cia blew up this plane

or not you know i'm i'm content to wait for the show to tell me when i need to hear that conclusion but kristen will look that up real time as well yeah she's in that american nightmare i like started it and she's like reading it she's like let me tell you what happens right oh i'm watching i want to finish this the whole point is that we're watching this but she has too much anxiety i think that's it and she has not not enough interest in it already and was not planning to watch it with me. Right. Like football pre-Taylor. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Bring it all the way back around. But I don't have a lot of anxiety. So I don't need to know how things end. I do. But that is not my MO. Right.

You're a good TV watcher. Thank you. I think I am. You watched that whole Mr. and Mrs. Smith from Friday to Monday. Sunday. Friday to, Friday night

to Saturday night. Oh, wow, you got through the whole thing by Saturday night. You're nasty. I stayed up so late. Oh, my God,

naughty girl. And I started Mr. and Mrs. Smith the movie all in that time. Wow. You got a lot done this week. Oh my God. Naughty girl. And I started Mr. and Mrs. Smith the movie all in that time. Wow. You got a lot done this week. All right.

Love you. Love you.