Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Charlie Sheen

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Charlie Sheen (The Book of Sheen, Two and a Half Men, Platoon) is a Golden Globe Award-winning actor. Charlie joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the lore of having not one but two of his cars stolen and pushed into a ravine, a two-decades-delayed apology to Dax, and why hiring a ghostwriter for his memoir was a dealbreaker. Charlie and Dax talk about how much of his story is impacted by being the little brother of Emilio Estevez, the math of time required in the attempt to work sustainably as an addict, and his patented ice cube trick. Charlie explains his fixes for Hollywood to stave off the pitfalls of corruptive fame, how leaning into his documentary made room for him to write The Book of Sheen, and that what’s different now is the commitment to be true to his word.Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. I am fucking so excited to bring this episode to everybody.

This was what an episode. It was incredible. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh, my God. If you haven't watched this doc or read this book, you must do it. Have you finished the doc? Not yet.

You haven't? Oh, I'm so jealous. I'd give anything. I know I'm so excited to start it, especially after this podcast. And I was like, oh, my God. First of all, I love him. Yeah. And he's so fucking likable.

Yeah. Yeah. Charlie Sheen is an award-winning actor, two and a half men, platoon, Ferris Bueller's Day Off, Wall Street, Spin City. He has a new memoir out called the Book of Sheen as well. as the docuseries on Netflix, aka Charlie Sheen. All of it's great, and this episode is outrageous. Please enjoy Charlie Sheen. Good Leaf Microgreens. Where do I even start? I'm Chef Andy Hay from Andy's East Coast Kitchen, and I'm telling you, these tiny greens are a salad game changer. Grown in vertical farms, pesticide-free, year-round in Canada, good leaf microgreens

are bursting with flavor and up to 166 times the nutrient density of full-grown vegetables. And the best part, they're ready to eat straighter to the pack. Pick up a pack today and follow Good Leaf Farms for recipes, including some of my favorites, Good Leaf Farms, Max Flavor, Max Nutrition, available at a store near you. discussing string cheese. String cheese. Did you get one where you offered one? I was offered one, and it turned into a thing.

Oh, what was the thing? I said that'll be the last time, first and last time that I'm offered string cheese. That's right. And she said, maybe all year. That's a good prediction. We're in September. No, that's true. And Christmas in string cheese aren't natural bedmates.

No, I've never seen the spread, and there was like a platter of string cheese, right? There should. Oh, my God. ABR were always recording. My shirt even. See that? Yes. Yes.

It stands for Always Be Recording. I see. Okay. You know what it's a play on, obviously. You're a cinephile. A.B.R. Always be recording. Okay. Where do you think we got that?

Klinger. Glingerie, Clangery, Clown Ross. Oh, I was going to say the CIA. That's a good guess. Always be closing. Remember, ABC? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, for sure.

I remember that. So it's just a play on. that. That's all. They didn't say that in Glengarry. No, they said going to be closing. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it. Okay. Cool. First, I want to start with, I haven't seen you in a bazillion years. Oh my gosh, right? Yes. And I want to say if memory serves it was when you lived in a neighborhood, I knew a guy who lived in your neighborhood was sober, who hosted a meeting. Okay. We'll leave him out of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I went to his meeting at his house, and I do believe I met you there once or twice. And then maybe another house meeting once or twice. But

It's been a decade. Was this person in the house that my brother used to live in with Paula Abdul? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's exciting. But there was the other meeting. In Bel Air? In Bel Air.

Thank you. So that's Tom Hanson, who's my best friend. Okay. He would host that. Is it still going on? No, during COVID, it went away. Then it went to Zoom. And then another friend kind of started hosting it in a smaller configuration.

I got you. But regardless, can I tell you the funniest thing is I kind of met you at this meeting? and I somehow was aware of which house yours was in that neighborhood. Okay. And I remember there was a period where you stopped coming to the meeting. And I just remember on Tuesday nights as I would drive by your house in route to this meeting. I'm like, I doubt that guy's coming. What's happening in that house?

And then I would drive out. And I would just be like, I wonder what's happening in there because he was. Yeah. No one ever came and knocked and was like, come on over. The only knocks that I would get occasionally were guys carrying badges. You know, yeah, investigating cars that had been. How about that? How about that thing?

Wow. Yeah, I need more info on that. I do too. And literally, to this day, everyone still thinks I was a part of it. It's so kind of an insurance fraud. Based on like... I know, you had plenty of money. You know what I'm saying?

And I loved the car. Yes. So Monica hasn't seen the doc nor has she read the book. On purpose, because I need to act as the audience. The audience might not know what you're talking about. So let's get some more deets. Yeah, so you had this beautiful S-class Mercedes. Correct, yeah.

This was on the news, and this was during, like, things are starting to become pretty wild, right? A little bit. They're simmering. There's a simmer. Yes, indeed. And all of a sudden on the news, they're like, Charlie Sheen's Mercedes was stolen and driven into a ravine. Yeah. Off of Mulholland.

Off of, like, Moly, 400 feet down this ravine in the dead of night. What? And I was, I was up to no good that night. Sure. And I see the phone ring. And it says Mercedes-Benz something. Dealer Shiver or something? Yeah, like, say, dealer, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm sure the airbags deployed, and they were probably calling to see if you were dead. Right, so I'm high out of my mind. It was the first night I ever ventured into a paid chat thing. What does that call? Like a web thing. Oh, okay, okay.

Right, like a newty. Like your only fans typey. Before that. Yeah, when it was still. Like a chat room, but maybe I had to pay. A love line with video. Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah. Somewhere maybe in Sweden. I don't know. Okay, wow. Switzerland. And I was waiting and waiting and waiting and I see the countdown. And I got a minute to go, right? And Mercedes call. And I've been waiting for like an hour. And I pick up. I'm like, are you okay, sir? I'm like, in a minute I'll be better. Not yet. Is that what the alarm said? I guess. So she's okay, your airbag just deployed. I said, well, that's weird because my car's in my driveway. And she said, sir, is there how you could stay on the phone with me and let me know if your car's in your drive? It was a stationary phone. I said, no, but I'll leave it off the thing.

I'll run down there and I'll come back. Yeah. And I come down there and it was one of those things where you think your mind is playing a trick on you. The car's just gone. Yes. Then I'm like, oh shit, the kids, right? I run and check on the kids. They're still there.

They got the car. Did they get the kids? Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, God. But they were with the nanny and I got back on the phone. I said, the car's gone. She was like, okay, do you want to report it?

I'm like, uh, I mean, maybe not right this minute. I'll call you back. Exactly. So this whole thing, that took maybe seven minutes. As I'm still on with her, the doorbell rings. I'm like, oh, shit, hold on. I mean, let me call you back, right? And I'm in a row of them.

I'm sweating, hair, eyes, the whole thing, right? And I open the door and there's two cops. Oh, jeez. Just what you want to see. Yeah, and I'm in a robe. And I'm like, hi, how can I help you? And they said, first of all, we're glad you're okay. We need to just take a look at your body.

I'm not in the best shape at the time but they asked me to like lift the robe and they're looking at my legs so I start putting it together they wanted to see if there were like scratches or cuts or dirt or branches that you had dumped yeah I drove it and then

ran from the scene climbed up the canyon 400 feet through dense foliage and brush not to mention what injuries you would have sustained exactly maybe I thought you pushed it off or just drove it off and they didn't want to get a DUI

exactly And the timeline was so compressed, there's no way I could have made it up there. I mean, I would have taken at least what, 20 minutes? Yeah, that would have been in great shape. Yeah. Oh, wait. But then I would have had to sprint down Mulholl and like two miles back to my house. You would have needed an accomplice, somebody else that would have driven you back.

Right. Or they'd owned a helicopter. You know, what are we doing? Yeah. But it was the weirdest thing because I had a Chevron card. Remember we used to have gas cards to the specific gas station? Your mobile shell. Yeah, it's on a Chevron card that was used later on that same night.

And they had video with the guy using it. And the cops showed up like a few days later and they played it for me. The guy had a limp. It was like right out of the movies, right? And my brain wanted to latch on to a memory that it couldn't come to terms with. It was the strangest thing. And I felt that if I could be hypnotized, that I would know who that was. Because the limp was such a giveaway.

But you'd be like, well, I'd remember a man with a limp. Yes. It was like one cell from closure or connection. But if I get hypnotized, then I can't be used as a witness in a case, correct? Oh, I don't know. Is that true? Doesn't that disqualify somebody? I've never heard that.

Do we have a research team? Yeah, we do a fact check after this, so I will be looking it up. That's true. Okay, I think that's a thing. But then it was a show night. So I still had to, like, somehow get a couple hours sleep, learn some dialogue. And you never connected with the gale in Sweden. I can't imagine.

I did not. I did not. So this is kind of a love-loss story. It really is. It really was. Then when I got to the stage, you know, there's Chuck Lorry and Lee Aronson. They're kind of looking at me because we had to push the run through back, like an hour or two hours. And it's now all over the news, correct?

It is everywhere. Oh, my everywhere. And so they looked at me in a way kind of like, so what happened? And it wasn't like, hey, man, are you okay? No way. You lost that right. Well, you burned that up a while ago. Instantly guilty when I walked out.

But that's one of the costs of being an addict because you lose benefit of the doubt. You do. Which is reasonable a little bit. Yeah, but if you just break down the mechanics of what would be required to pull that off. If I had pulled it off, I'd be bragging about that like this many years later.

Exactly, yes. It would take a normal man 20 minutes to go up the hill and I was up in eight. Exactly. Exactly. Now, do you get defensive in those moments when he's like, so what happened? Instantly.

But I've gotten better over the years. Yeah. We just had an expert on yesterday, and he was saying one of the things that humans respond most severely to is being accused of something they didn't do. Yes. And he kind of said, how do you feel about that? And I said, well, I hate it with the irony of I've gotten away with so much stuff. Right. And then the time I get pulled over sober and the guy's like, how many drinks you have tonight?

I'm like, I haven't drank since 19, you know. Right, right, right. Forget the fact that I got away with it so many times. Wow. Okay. Now the punchline to the story, Monica. Okay. If I have this right, is that's not the only time this car was put into a routine.

What? Same car? No. I replaced it with the identical cars. I love that car. Yeah. And it happened again. I don't even know the time frame that it's connected to.

It literally happened again. And this time it also wasn't you? It still wasn't me. Because I can see the second time of being like, let me just see if I could do it. Right, right. Now I know. Now I want to do it because I already paid the price. Right.

And now I know what they're looking for. Exactly. Now, let's see if I can get away with it this time. What a trip. Okay, so Monica, one thing that can't really happen in one person's lifetime is they're going to put it to her vina and then it happened a second time. Why did what I have left the keys in that second car again? Yeah. That's the moron in the story moment that I'll own.

When the guy came to the door, I thought it was a gag. The second time. Yeah, because there's a gentleman named Eddie Braun. He's been my stunt double for like a thousand years. And he does that kind of shit. Pranks. Yeah. Elaborate shit like that.

He's got me a prank. Exactly. That involve usually vehicles, right? And the cops there, and it's so surreal. I'm really suspicious. And I'm like, did Ed put you up to this? Are you a friend of Eddie B? Yeah.

And he's like, I don't know an Eddie B. It was a repeat. I need to take a look at your body. Can you imagine if you're a problem? The cop, you get the call and say it's Charlie Sheen's cars. Oh, my God. Again, I saw that on the news. And then you go up there and he ends up there.

Are you buddies with Eddie? I would be like, this guy is on another plan. That's so funny. Both of you are having the exact same experience. The cop is like, what? And you are like, what? Everyone's having the exact same experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So wild. It's madness. It's madness. Kind of kudos because that is sort of funny. Oh, wait. Oh, yeah. Sorry, if I'm not mistaken, the Chevron card was left in the second vehicle. Oh.

Yes, that happened. Okay. So that was spooky. Uh-huh. That was a message. Do you think it was the same person? Well, they would have had to have had it. Oh, you're saying the original Chevron was returned?

Was left in the center console of the second car that was pushed over. What? Yeah. So it was like they're sending a message. Like, no, that's, that's when it crossed over. into just creepier terrain, you know. Ew. Not cool.

Am I wrong in that there was some suspicion that the second go-around was someone that you had maybe been partying with that evening who decided to take your car? Not someone on the real inner circle. Right, right, right. No, that's a good hypothesis. Again, I don't mean to accuse the attic. Not at all. Not at all.

We do end up with some folks we wouldn't otherwise end up with. We would agree. Many of them. Yeah, in droves. Now, I think that was a pretty Han Solo night as well. Okay. There's no funny business. No. But that one didn't get nearly as much press because people were like, oh, my God. They were like, if we run this story, people think they're watching a rerun of the news.

Exactly. Yeah, we can't put it up. And they would just use the same copy and just change the date, right? And I'd save a bunch of work. Save a car. Don't even send the fucking camera crew, the B-roll team. Yeah, no. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

Yeah. And here's the thing. I think people get a sense of me at this point, especially with the book and the Doc, and I've been really forthcoming with, hey, man, here's everything. Yeah. I think they have to assume that by now, I would say, okay, I'm going to set the record straight. That home Mercedes thing, I wish I had, like, the coolest story ever to explain what the motivation was, what my goals were. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, like, why would you keep just this thing still secret? Right.

Okay. Devil's Advocate moment? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I first say, 100%, I think this is all what happened. Okay, thank you. Additionally, certainly you and I have had some moments where you, like, wake up and you're seeing some things and some clues and some evidence you were trying to put together. This happened to me. I woke up my fucking ribs were so sore.

I'm like, and I'm like, oh, I'm in a lot of pain. And I go outside and I see my Harley is laying on the ground on the side. Oh. And I'm like, okay, so I think I decided to go for a motorcycle ride. Clearly, I didn't make it out of the parking stall. Thank God. I guess this rib stuff is me. I guess trying to pick it up for a while, maybe?

Is that what I... And you can't find the motive at some point. You do do things where they defy the sober brain to understand what the goal was in that moment because you can get fixated on an insane goal that doesn't make any sense in the light of day. Yeah. So I believe a thousand percent and it's not hard for me to imagine

one iota how you convinced you know you didn't need to push the second card to never be. That would be hilarious. Oh, my God. Just the energy involved. Yeah, that's a lot. But I can see yourself like up day three and thinking somehow that that will set the record straight. But how?

Like, how does it close that circle? But people on drugs are not really doing howls often. That is my point. It's like, yes, you and I now know that that would in no way write this injustice. Right, right, right. But I do know that there have been moments in my level of intoxication. where I would think I've got to set the record straight and push my car off this thing. Interesting.

That's a thought I could have. I just genuinely, I don't think I have had the energy. No, no. You know what I'm saying? I don't either. I mean, gosh, that's just exhausting. I mean, I've never pushed a car off a clue. I assume it's an exhausting.

Yeah. The other thing is, don't you think someone would drive by and see a man pushing? In a bathrobe. In a bathrobe. Yeah. Yeah. The first one, they used my car. as the mule to then drive around the whole neighborhood and hit all the garages.

Oh, they did. And see what they could pilfer. Yeah. And then they also took some stuff from my place they thought was valuable and they grabbed this one box. And it was all these VHS tapes, like 25 episodes of Spin City on VHS. The Jeff Ballard, RIP, God rest him. My publicist of 30 years said, hey, let's get these transferred one day.

I'm like, yeah, I'll get to that whenever. And they stole the box of Spin City VHS. And they were dumped on Mulholl and like, In the middle of the road, like, it's a weird way to tell a guy we didn't like that show. Yeah, we were a fan, you know. They might have been really excited about the box of VHS tapes. Maybe they even thought they were adult films. And then someone popped open the thing in the back and said, that's fucking spin-sitting.

We've been had out with tea. The car might have been too heavy to push. Without getting really. So it's like, we got to start shedding stuff. I didn't do it, but I am getting in the mind. Wow. I'm getting a sense of how your mind works. It's a trip.

Yeah. This is a beautiful pairing. Wow. She's a nice mix of like presents nice but could kill if necessary. If necessary. I'm getting behind you if it goes sideways. I will say this. Monica started out with Kristen and I as a babysitter 10 years ago.

Oh, wow. This got elevated to she was Kristen's assistant. And then one of the very first things somehow we made her do or Kristen made her do was people were coming over to look at a duplex we just bought. rent. Okay. And she goes in with this couple and the couple says, where's the washer and dryer and refrigerator, which they had seen in the previous trip over? So someone had broken into this duplex and stolen all of the appliances. Yeah. And I'm finding out real time with the people who, you know, I'm trying to sell it to basically. And she's 27. I was like, oh, they weren't very good, so we're replacing them and we're upgrading. Oh, you came up with that like in the moment? I was so

I'm proud of myself. So you didn't make the place look like it was a prime spot for crime. Exactly. Because who would want to go move into a place where everything was just stolen? Right, right, right. And so she calls me and says that duplex was robbed. There's no appliances. And I was showing the people.

And I go, what did you say? And she goes, I told them you were upgrading them. And I literally went, click. Like, you're invited to be around forever. Yeah. You know how to handle shit when it goes sideways. This is a very valuable quality. Wow.

Yeah. think on your feet. That was a big moment for us, whether you realize it or not. A valuable and a rare quality. A very rare. Thinking on her feet, lying to their face. I mean, that might feel bad. There's nothing to feel bad about it.

They did get better appliances. But what if they got robbed? They didn't. It's never happened again. I know because we still. You still. Okay. They're still there?

I don't know. I don't think they're still there. That was a decade ago. Oh, okay. Yeah, it'd be great if they were still there. They love it so much. Yes, I would love to think that that's what it was. There's something I've been carrying around for, like, how long ago was the Tom meeting in Bel Air?

21 years ago. Okay. I was a dick to you one night. Oh. Yeah. Tell me. Not cool. Like an asshole 5,000.

Tell me, because it's so bizarre, I don't remember that. The next day or the next week or the next month, I was like, I'm going to make that right. And here we are 20 years later. Oh, this is lovely. And I have zero, zero. It was Halloween. Okay. And we were sharing Halloween with super tiny children is not fun.

It's just not. I mean, it is, and it isn't. It's fun for the photo on the fridge later. Just the whole, the effort, it's effortful. A lot of crime in general. Yeah. Scary monsters are everywhere. Exactly.

It's an ideal scenario. I was kind of in a pissy mood in my share, and I was bitching about Halloween and just zero gratitude about anything, you know. And then a couple of people later, he started sharing. I don't think you had kids yet, right? No, no, no, no. I was like, yeah, no, we had a great time. Went to a couple of parties. and you were like giving like the fun version of Halloween in the middle I said try it with

fucking kids dude and it was so inappropriate and unnecessary and uncalled for so 20 years later apologies oh yeah no problem sorry about that do you find this to be the case I have found this numerous times now look there's a lot of people I've made amends to thank God I did and they were really hurt and that repair had to happen more often than not I've called people and said You know, I did this and I did that. And they're like, I didn't give a fuck. Right. But I'm living with this notion that this person fucking hates me over it and that felt betrayed by it.

I do think that's an interesting part of making amends is like you've built up a lot of it in your mind. That isn't really there. It's just you're holding it. They weren't. Yeah. We've sort of decided the level of trauma for them that they've been carrying as a result of our behavior. And we're not even that important in their life. Exactly.

Exactly. But that's what apologies are, though. They are for you. They're because you don't like the way you behaved. It doesn't match your values or who you want to be. So that's what it's about more than the person. But I do think the process of making those teaches you crystal clear, oh, you only carry your own mistakes, really. You don't really carry other people all that much. Sure. You just go like, yeah, that person is whatever. But what haunts you and gives you shame and tortures you is your mistakes. And I think that has given me some grace in times where people are, in my opinion, wronging me. And I go like, oh, yeah, I'm a little upset today, but I will not think about this in eight years trying to fall asleep. And that person will. And I don't want that for them. And I actually feel bad in this moment because that's it you're accumulating those things. Yeah.

The second that this was put on the schedule, and thank you. It's an honor to be here. Oh, yeah. I was like, oh, cool. I get to clear up that thing from like two days ago. Yeah, but you know what's great? It's a testament to, and I thought this a million times while watching the documentary, I was like, like, the guy's just so fucking likable.

Oh, thank you. You're beyond that. You're likable. You're lovable. Thank you. And it's funny because a million different people could have said that in a meeting, and I would have wanted to fight him afterwards. Right.

But I just think your likability. You're like, let me hear that. Yeah. And maybe even flattered that you are addressing me. I grew up, you know, I'm 10 years younger than you. Wow. It's not like I wasn't a fan of yours as a guy. kid, I was.

So I'm like, get out of here. The dude from the dude just told me to shut up of a dude with kids. That's great. Wow. It also sounds kind of like a joke. Like maybe I would just think that was funny. People certainly laughed. Right.

I would have said it with a little bit of a chuckle though. Yeah. Here's a jazz. Yeah. It was sour grapes, man. Yeah. Okay, so I absolutely love the doc. I've told so many people on here.

And I'll tell you the accomplishment I think of it is, in full honesty, I come in for a lot of different things. Like, A, I've met you a couple times. B, I kind of want a rubberneck. I want to hear some great fucking drug stories because I'm a junkie too and I like those. Right. And I'm totally served that up in a very delicious way.

And then it ends in the most satisfying and heartwarming and beautiful way that I'm like, my God, this thing worked on every level. Like, I'm really emotional at the end. Wow. I just moved beyond belief. It had everything I could want. It's spectacular. Oh, read on. Thank you.

And then I'm two-thirds of the way through the book. I'm listening to you. Okay, good. Are you getting a sense that the book is telling stories in a different way or filling in some blanks from stories in the dock? Absolutely. The ones that overlap. There's a ton more in the book.

Right. And I want to compliment you. I'll be honest with you. While I'm listening to it, I'm like, who did he get to write this book? I thought, oh, you know what? He probably got one of the sitcom writers that wrote for him and really knew how to write in his voice. Because, you know, these great writers, they do that. They learn your voice.

And they can write for you. And it's so funny, I thought, yeah, that's what happened. That's how he sourced this ghostwriter or collaborator or whatever. Right, right. And then I was reading the interview with you and Emilio in interview today and learned that you actually wrote the whole thing. I did. I was so impressed because, A, it's just a very well constructed and formatted book. The structure of it's great.

It's solid. But your authentic voice is there every sentence. Amazing. Which is hard to do. That's great. when you can infuse your actual voice under the page. Wonderful compliment. It's great.

It's really, really good. No, that's really cool. Yeah, they tried to put me with the ghostwriter, which rightfully so, you know, with my history or my past, or however people perceive me, says, I'm going to write a book. And they're like, well, it's an investment they need to protect. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. We think you need to work with someone.

And I was like, that's a deal breaker. Yeah. There was like an audition phase for a certain amount of chapters, yeah. Oh, wow. And then they finally, there was, There was that one day where they were like, let's just leave him alone. Let's let him keep going. That's a testament to Jen Bergstrom and Amy Bell and my team at Schuster.

They just went, okay. Good. Were you typing or handwriting? I was handwriting my notes, but typing the actual chapters in the manuscript. And I don't type well. Are you a speed typist? I'd say pretty fast, but I type with four fingers pretty fast. Right.

Okay. I can't. What do they call it? Yeah. Home? I don't know. It's called something. My son, Bob, is like, 100.

180 words a minute. It's insane. Wow. It's all from gaming. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, how do you get like a nice paying job?

Right. With that kind of typing speed. Yeah. You get in a time machine and go back to 1981. Exactly. And put him on someone's desk. He can be a secretary.

But, okay, as I think about how do I get your life into this interview in some way? Really, it's impossible. There's so much stuff. It's crazy. I mean, I really could do five hours. on all the things that I learned in that doc.

But I guess there were kind of some thematic things that I wanted to go through. And also, I hope they told you the dude is like wide open. Or they probably said, stay away from this shit. No one said anything. Okay, good. But I know because we're both in a program that we won't help ourselves even if that was the game plan. Yeah. But my thing is like, well, hold on.

I put it not just in a documentary. Yeah. I put it in a book that I wrote. Right. If you do that, you better be willing to talk about all of it. Great. So that's one of my first questions because I have at times written things, then put them out there. And the writing, it's fine because I'm in total control and I'm in my room and then I get to decide what gets published.

But once it leaves my barn. The giant whoosh to the universe. Don't you have this like, well, I had control and now I don't have it. Oh, yeah. I went through that. It was a powerful moment, though. Yeah. It's scary, right?

It's scary. And then I made a decision. I can either stay backpedaling. I could be on my heels or I could just lean into it. Right. I had to lean into it to a hit send, right? Yeah. And I'm not like a lean-in kind of guy just by nature.

I'm always sort of like, hey, let's talk about this. A little skeptical. Yeah. But I think that was kind of a cool moment to break through to just say. Release. Yeah, like, all right. What happens next? I could say is none of my business because it is and it isn't.

The part about how it's perceived is none of my business. Right. But then it's made my business when I have to talk about it and promote it. Totally. Correct. Yes. And if you found that some of the stuff is much harder to say out loud than it was to type out. It was in the first couple interviews.

And then I caught a snippet of one because I don't really watch a lot of stuff, but I did catch a clip off of Good Morning America with Michael Strayhan. It was amazing. I'm sure you know Michael, right? I've been on the show and met him, but I don't know personally. But he's a great dude. And so we got into some stuff. I caught like a little section, like a YouTube short, I think, of it, right?

And I didn't look confident. And I thought, okay, I saw that for a reason, just accidentally flipping past other shit, right? I needed to know that. Yeah, and I was like, okay, all right, let's change that. If I'm uncomfortable, what's the audience doing? Yeah, it's contagious. Right. Dude, really?

Oh, shit. Okay. He looks like he doesn't want to do this, and I can't enjoy it if he doesn't want to do it. Right, right. They're just waiting for me to tell him another apocalypse story or something. So of the things that we have in common, we have the addiction thing. I want to say, I've gone really, really hard. I've gone harder than most of my peers did that I partied with.

And I was really, really, really shown a whole other level in the dock. I didn't think I'd ever hear someone's story and go like, he's got worse than I do. Right. You mean the amount? The amount, the duration. There's periods where his dealer who goes hard as fuck, they've been smoking crack for three days. The dealer's got to go home and go to sleep. He comes back in a couple days.

Charlie's still at it from a couple days ago. More people have shared with less than less. I don't know how to say it nicely. Yeah. Composed. I always say this. I was weirdly, you do have some inconsistent things as an attic where it's like you're doing one thing, but then you kind of have this virtue. My thing was I always checked in with my girlfriend.

I didn't want her to worry. So it would be like I was supposed to come on at two. I'm going to ring at two. Hey, I'm going over to this hotel. These guys have just met here, you know. And then I'd call her at six. Now I'm in a different motel. Now I'm with a motel.

Right. Now I'm with six dudes that are even worse than the previous. Right. And she would go like, You don't have to update me, you know. Okay, I just don't want you to worry about me. Even though what I'm telling you is I'm with worse and worse and worse people at worse and worse places. You're delivering very worrisome news.

Exactly. Yeah. Because Dave lives in San Diego. It's like, what the hell? Yes. What the hell? Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by Cozy.

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Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit Cozy.com.ca. That's C-O-Z-E-Y. dot CA. The home of possibilities made easy. Your back, your walls, and your sanity will thank you. But in addition to the addict stuff, I see so much of your story in your life being really impacted by being a little brother. Do you think so? When you like dig into what all's going on. No one has really pointed that out or latched onto that. It was just the proximity of being. being just within arm's reach of his really fast, meteoric fame rise with that group.

And then making peace with that. Like, how am I a loser and wanting to be as cool and be invited and be included over here? And then over here, I'm like the person people want to be included by. You're kind of dualistic just by the dynamic you're born in. For me, that's how it was. Sure. I've experienced a lot of that. Inferiority and superiority complex working throughout my whole childhood.

Right, and like from one hour to the next. I wasn't like, oh, last week I was a badass, and then the following week, I sucked. Yeah, yeah. And I was the valet or the sad puppy dog tagging along. Well, was your brother the golden child or was everyone? Emilio, he was great in school. He always had a very cute girlfriend. Ramon, who's between Emilio and myself, marched to a different beat.

He was a punk rocker searching for some identity somewhere in the mix of all of it. And then we got, of course, dad leading the charge, you know, have grown up on. his sets and watching his successes and failures. And then my sister Renee is below me. But there's a weird point in the year where we're all exactly two years apart. Oh, wow. Yeah, there's a line in the book about when I went to junior high, which is now middle school, right? And I said it was being exposed to that many girls with all these hormones. Yeah. Yeah. It was either the coolest thing ever or the meanest joke ever played on me, you know? And then I said, only skin clarity will tell. Because think about it, right? You start breaking out. It's over. It's a wrap.

It is a rap. It's horrible. Yeah. Wow. It's so hard to be. But you were always quite cute. You were kind of blessed with being pretty darn cute. Thank you.

I did have a bad year and a half. And somehow this summer, like right before I wanted to audition and give this thing a shot professionally, it just magically cleared up. It's like I willed it off of my face. How old? What age were you then? Like 17. Wow. But what I'm going to try to put on you and project on you is I imagine you got very

comfortable in these very big swings. Status quo was these kind of huge swings. I even imagine now I wasn't the child of anyone famous, but I have children. And I do think about this sometimes. It's like they move through the world with us and they're with mom and dad and everyone knows mom and everyone wants to cater to mom and did you guys want to sit over there? They're experiencing life in a very privileged and bizarre way. And then when they're not with us and they step outside of it, they resume civilian life, which is no one wants to help you. Like, go fucking ass the other guy, right? Like, that's life on planet Earth.

Sure. These radical shifts in the dynamics and what your experience can be, I feel like it almost could hardwire you for how absolutely dramatic your life was, ultimately. Interesting. You mean to be either Martin Sheen's son or Emilio's brother in their presence, but on my own. Piece of shit. He's just a guy. Third dude from the rear, yeah.

And then you get your own. So it's like, now I'm this heightened thing, but I'm familiar with it because it's how I'm treated on sex. Marlon Brando, this motherfucker's having lunch with Marlon Brando on Apocalypse. No, as a kid. As an 11-year-old, yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. And I remember it so vividly. Wow.

Yeah, and not even like knowing... What he was. Well, knowing enough, but not the breadth of his genius. The weight of it. All the weight of it, yeah. What you had to have clocked was that I'm sure your dad probably acted in a way around him. He probably didn't act around anybody. Like, oh, shit, my dad worships this dude.

Yes, he was one of dad's inspirations to become an actor. But you talk about those big swings that I seem to just roll with it. Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of that was that really none of it was planned. I never sat down. I was like, okay, I'm going to do a project that looks like this. And if that one goes a certain way, that'll probably open the door to do this other thing. And then, okay, and if that works out, then I've done those two things.

And then obviously the third thing makes perfect sense. None of that ever. It was like just getting a script. Okay, wow, this is a world that I'm excited by. Yeah. This is a character I think I could pull off. off, not even Excel, pull off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what's the messaging behind that? Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Keep them fooled is the messaging. The imposter thing was part of it. I better make the most of this because that day will come when they find out. Yeah, when they knock on the door, they're here for your sag card. Or you're told that, yeah, we've figured it out now.

And here's the only stuff you're qualified for, which is the chatter the whole time. You know, at some point, they're going to stick me over on something that isn't all this great. big cool stuff. We've interviewed 500 actors at this. Wow. 455 of them have imposterous. Yeah. They have imposter syndrome without Amelia as their older brother and without Martin as their father.

So your level of it, I have to imagine, is probably pretty fucking extreme. It's probably a little more than the average bear is what you're saying. But I guess that could have gone either way or worked in my favor or against me in that, I don't want to say I had something to prove, but the bars were set pretty high. but also the fruits that I saw connected to matching some of those achievements, that was a big part of it as well. Well, I'd imagine the seminal moment is like your brother has joined kind of the brat pack. You write in the book about going out on Hollywood Boulevard with Judd and Rob and Rob Lowe and your brother and the woman that was there. I'm trying to remember.

Melissa Gilbert was there. Demi Moore was there. DeMey Moore. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew McCarthy was there. Yes. And you and Chris Penn are all.

also there, but you're in the exact same boat. Yeah. With a little brother. And you're just, you're there, but you're also not there. Like, you know if the doorman doesn't see your brother nod that you're coming. They're going to lock it as we step up. This really confusing, I would imagine, bit of privilege and then also feeling less than all the time. Sure.

It's that you're having more than 98% of the people, but also even in that spot, you're feeling way less than. For sure. And resentment? Was there any? Because I feel like that's a breeding ground for resentment. That would come at the end of the night. when everybody went home with someone and I went home with either Chris 10 or just me

and Chris and I would sit up late at night like okay what are we doing wrong man what's missing from this and he was like idiot the big hit movie I'm like yeah you're right okay okay how do we make that happen right and then Chris like did he did footloose and suddenly he was the toast of the town Sean saw a screening I remember I was at his house or my parents and I remember him walking in and saying

holy shit, Chris is going to be a star. Wow. He just, like, proclaimed it. He announced it. It was really a cool moment. And I'm inclined to believe Sean. Yeah, me too. If there's no one whose opinion I might value in that space, it would probably be yes.

Yeah, yeah. You take his word just because it's the safer thing to do. I talk about it in the book, I said Chris and I were oarsmen in the same unknown boat. Now I'm rowing that thing alone. Yes. And then Chris and I were still making super eight films, even after football. footloose. But he had worked on this Vietnam office for like 10 years. And now that he had gobs of money, he was hiring like special effects crews. Oh, wow. They were still filming

with a tiny camera and he's blowing up this river. And I was the DP. And I'm literally trying to frame out a colossus at Magic Mountain. Because we were at that place. What's that place called? In Santa Clarita. Yeah. It's like Indian something or rather behind Magic Mountain. He got a permit to blow up the river. Oh, wow. And everybody was in full fatigues with M16s. Oh, my God. So we took it to like this crazy level. He did.

And then he continued to shoot on 8mm. Yeah. Yeah. And just kind of kept me there as the D.P. And I'm filming Craig T. Nelson, Eric Stoltz, Sean, Emilio, Leon Robinson. Oh, my God. Yeah. There was like a whole.

Craig T. He was in those? Yeah. Do you know him? I was on a show with him for six years and I love him. Yeah. He's lovely. So then I was exposed to it or in the presence of it and still not on.

their side of the camera. Yes. It can be maddening. Yes. I think, Chris, I'm pretty sure I could do more than that. Get rid of Klausus in the background. Those were moments along the way that did inspire and get just that chip on your shoulder probably. Yeah, and the fire.

The fire and the fever and all of it. You knew you were creating wreckage. You knew you were scaring people that loved you. Sure. At what age? When is this starting? You're an addict from the jump, yeah? I mean, you pretty much.

Yeah, but there were long break. Right. It sounds like you got pretty in line to work, as it did I. Sure. But the time I would give myself, as it progressed, would shrink. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to need two months in my 20s. I would commit to it and show up shining like a new dime, right? Yeah.

And then I was like, ah, that's a three-week prep. Right. That one, no problem. And then that turns into, all right, so it's Friday. We're shooting on Monday. Yeah. My call time is five. Yeah.

I've got to shut it down by 11 p.m. Oh, my God. The math we get into. Oh, my God. And the negotiations. Once you pass 10 p.m., the amount of math that starts happening every five seconds until it's five a year. It's a class I never attended. Yeah, no, it's nuts.

And then I have this thing about the speed of the time, the rate at which it vanishes from like 1 a.m. to 6. I think it's like 100 times faster than 9 p.m. to say midnight. Couldn't agree more. Okay, good. Even when I have fantasies as I do, because I'm an addict, of how I will, could use successfully, my conclusion is I just needed to start at 10 a.m. There you go. If I just started at 10 a.m.

I probably could have made it to sleep by two for the 5 a.m. call. Which is doable. Yeah. It got to the point during anger management where I was taking the 15 minute reset nap. Just to hypnotize myself or meditate into a place of, okay, none of that happened. I know what's in front of me. I can pull this off. They'll know something's up, but they won't.

won't know to the extent of how high it's up. I will nap at lunch. You're kind of problem solving. But you're not, right? You trick yourself into saying you are. You cobbled together something that you think is a solution. Will you tell her about the time that you're visibly falling asleep on camera? Yeah. I don't know where that came from. I think it came probably from some sexual behavior that I'd heard about. But I'd never done it. She's like, what the hell No, I want to know. What are we on the doorstep? I was filming a movie in Canada called Free Money.

I've been going way too hard. And it was like midday. And I had this scene in a cafe or a diner. And I was trying to get through it. It wasn't so much about the dialogue. It was about the level of fatigue. And I thought I was keeping it together. And the director between takes, he walks up and he says,

hey, man, I see you falling to sleep on camera. Oh, my God. And that's like, yeah. And I've never done heroin, right? Right. And that's like a heroin thing. thing, or even Suboxone, which is like contemporary methadone. Yes.

I'm telling her, and she's your co-host. You know, she doesn't know about Suboxone. No, I do. I've seen all these drug documentaries. I know about them. And overprescribed everywhere on planet Earth and needs to closer look at that shit, right? Yeah, yeah. And so I said, okay, my bad, I need a cup of ice.

Bring me a cup of ice. He's like, okay, what do you want to drink? I'm like, just the ice. And he's like, okay, I said, give me a minute. So I go into the bathroom. I'm like, okay, I've heard about this somewhere else. but for sexual reasons, I'm going to stick an ice cube up my butt. No.

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure, and it was a good size one. I didn't want it to melt. Who did you got one of those, like, big round ones they make for whiskey? Yeah. If I see it in the cup, I'm like, no, no, no. I need a ragged ball-sized piece of ice. Can you imagine? Yeah, and I keistered it like I was sneaking drugs into prison, right?

It was suddenly wide away because it was so uncomfortable. Of course. It was so cold. Not to mention the clenching. We're probably going to keep it in. Yeah, also the leaking. Yeah, you're just leaking. You're now peeing.

Right. Because of melts. I was in like a conductor's jumpsuit. The overall thing, the child tells you the quality of the movie, right? And I came back to set and I'm like, let's do this. You're so aware. Let's do this, man. Monica, there's footage of these takes in the movie, which is incredible.

Yeah. And then I've got sort of the melty clock going, right? Like, how many takes is he going to need? We got through it. And I think after that, how? I wasn't like, oh, I better go get the ice cube out. Sure. Because we've all thought about the perfect crime.

You know, you shoot somebody with an ice cube bullet, bullet, and then there's no ballistics, right? So I'm like, okay, it's just going to vanish. There will be no ballistics in this crime scene, right? And so we made the day. When I saw that scene in the dock, I'm like, why didn't they just send me home? That guy's not well. Yeah.

And I'm not passing the balk. I'm not saying, like, oh, shame on them. But there was like a hole, and I talk about it in the book. It gets there later on about this string of movies that I did in a state that was destroyed. Charlie, I have directed something where somebody was so fucked up that I just had to switch to, okay, how do I get them through this? They have a ton of dialogue. Okay, you're on a phone call. I'm behind the monitors, and I'm seeing every single line, and they're repeating them.

And then I come up with another solution and the next thing. Wow. You know, I got a million dollars to make a car chase movie. I can't send him home. I got to get through this. And what condition was that actor in when you met them for the job? I had some concerns. They were a close friend.

And then even worse, after this terrible day of filming, I said, look, dude, I know exactly what's going on. Right. And he said, yeah. So then probably even worse, he quit cold turkey opiates. So then for the rest of the movie, I'm dealing with someone detoxing. Fuck. Okay. I have this experience at a hotel down the street where there was a kid, 21 years old, his

His parents are famous. That's an understanding, but continue. Yes. He would get so fucked up every day. I'd go there to work, and I would see him. And one day, it was so bad. He was falling over. He almost knocked his head open.

He was scaring everyone, you know. Was it booze? Was it dope? I don't know. When she described it, I think he was definitely benzoned out. Got it. Okay. And drinking.

Like, overly zanxed and then drinking. Got it. He was like falling out. He would just like fall over and then come back to. It was so scary looking to someone who doesn't do that. And my friend went up to the bartender and was like, dude, this guy's not okay. But you were in a public place. Yes.

Oh, I thought you were like at his apartment. No, we were at a hotel, bar, and restaurant. Got it. Okay. They went up and they were like, you know, this person is not okay. And they were like, oh, he's my friend. He's my neighbor. It's okay.

And he was like, well, first of all, I know that's not true. And also, doesn't matter. He needs help. Right. That guy was like, okay, that's a bartender. What can he do? Right? So my friend went to the manager and said, you need to get this person help. They need to leave. This is bad. And they were like, do you know who he is? And he was like, I don't care who he is. This is a problem. But that's the way a lot of people operate, right? Like, do you know who he is? We can't kick him out. We can't tell him anything because he's famous. Right. And I think that's what. Well, it might have been happening behind the scenes. People might have been saying, we got to get him home.

But then people are like, but we can't because it's Charlie. My whole takeaway from that whole thing was, you guys think you're doing him a favor by not kicking him out? He needs help. And no one's telling him or his parents. So, like, you would have been better off if they had told you to leave instead of letting you continue. Yes. It's this six pack of movies that I talk about in the book and just how one was just worse than the last one.

The behavior was identical across all those different sets. And the only way that I really knew where the hell I was, was hotel stationery or a souvenir from the airplane. Oh, that's where we're doing that job. And talk about being untethered. You're like, you really don't ignore your ass space and time. I got to believe. Let's say, okay, the first three were whatever.

And then by number four, it just would have been cool in the first meeting. They just said, the last place you need to be right now is on a movie set, trying to be responsible. Yes, yes. And play make believe. Because if you have no consequences, why would you stop? That's the key thing. when the consequences are always sort of negotiable. Right.

Until they're not. One day they become very not. Difficult in the moment, but tons of gratitude later, that what should have been a stop sign was always yield. And when it becomes a stop sign, it's there for a reason. And I think the thing that people are kind of responding to with the dog, which is really cool. And in some ways, the book,

they're getting this story from the guy. And they shouldn't be. Right. They should be getting it from an educated narrator. A journalist. Yeah, a journalist. Yeah. It's all archival.

and there's sad music and it's a whole thing. It's an if only story and it's not and it's cool, right? I mean, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm sure you have the same agitation when you see how generally recovery gets played in movies by a bunch of people who have no experience with it. It's like it's so somber. Put Charlie and I together and we'll start talking about this carnage. And it's just because you survived.

Right. And it's not happening today. You got to laugh about it. Like, it's just got to be funny or you would just drown in the shame of all the fuck of shit we did. So you've had a lot of time to reflect. I'm suggesting things as part of the recipe, right? Like the fraudulence, that's certainly part of it. Sure.

What do you think about just how incredibly high the bar was set so quickly? I also think that's problematic. You don't graduate high school. Right. I'm going to give acting a shot. And on a very short time, you're on platoon. And that's bonkers. And then you're 21 and the thing wins fucking best pitcher.

And I'm watching that broadcast from New York having just started Wall Street. And then now the cash and prizes are arriving. Right. Those are extremely heightened. Sure. The people that navigate it, I'm so impressed because it's an untenable level of heightened arousal. It is. And at some point, the cash and prizes kind of wear off.

And I think that's where drugs really, I'm supposed to feel elation right now. I have everything I wanted. Where's the elation? Crack gives you elation. Yeah, it does. In a way that no part of the job can. It fills in for the disappointment of the fantasy. Interesting.

You're in a dangerous spot. Yeah, that has to be altered. Medicated. There's a thing that I always go back to from my own flameouts and then also witnessing the flameouts of others or even just the behaviors from those flameouts or lack of gratitude or just someone's completely shit the bed. I always ask myself, and I put this on me too,

like, okay, when I was building this fantasy as a child, when I saw like the life of a movie star or I saw it with dad, but my version, my name and lights and my successes. Then you're in a weird motel. with two bikers and four streetwalkers. Someone's making a meth run, and you're like, wait, I don't do math. And you're kind of like, where was that in that whole fantasy package?

Yeah. You can't plan that stuff, and you can't prepare to avoid it. You know what I just thought of sitting here? What if they always kept the audition process and connected in play, like it's a mandatory part of getting a job? Even if your last film made $100 million. You make Brad Pitt read. And you just like everybody still has to audition.

Can you imagine? Yeah. I mean, people would flip out. It would never allow it. Almost all of the fantasy is, oh my God, finally I won't have to go earn it in this awkward situation. That's almost the best part of the fantasy. It is until it isn't. That's the imposter syndrome.

Yes. When you're like, oh shit. Okay. So now they just think because of that thing they saw, like I can do this next thing. Huh. now you're just being trusted and treated like a commodity of sorts and the first test is on camera

and usually with people that you respect you. You admire you. Yeah, yeah. It's like, whoa. I think they should also refilm day one. Always. It's like the first pancake, yeah. I think they should make day one two days.

I like that. Get it out of the way. Yeah, because I'll look at stuff on day one to put in the middle of the movie and it's like, oh, Jesus, I wasn't even warm. It wasn't even warm. Yeah, yeah. I haven't even moved hotel rooms yet to the one I like. Exactly.

The one I don't like facing the fire station. Yeah. So these are my fixes for Hollywood. Yeah, I love that. And they're terrible. There's something. Another thing I'm wondering is a lot of the stuff, it came pretty easily. That's kind of confusing.

It did. And some of it was just right place, right time. I mean, think about the Bueller thing. The Buehler thing's a trip. And Monica needs a note. So Jennifer Gray says, Hey, come, I want you to be in this movie. Come meet John Hughes. Yeah, and I worked with Jennifer on Red Dawn.

Got it. Okay. She says, hey, there's this one scene. It's a really cool character. And I told the director, John Hughes, that you'd be the right guy for the job. I'm like, wow, thank you. I think she was dating Matthew, Broderick at the time. Uh-huh. She plays the sister. She got on the leads.

Well, you've seen the movie. Yeah, love it. Classic. So I prepare, and I get the scene, and my brother Ramon, I'm borrowing all of his punk rock shit to kind of look like that guy. Yeah. You were rubbing ashes on your eyes or something weird. Yeah.

Yeah, to look tired, you know, and I drive all the way down to Long Beach. I meet John Hughes in the parking lot, and I'm expecting him to say, great, okay, so we're going to go over here and we're going to put you on tape. We'll get back to you. Like normal. Normal. Yeah. Yeah.

And he's on the move. He's like I describe in the book, a man with a full plate and no time to eat, right? And so I start walking with him, and he's got a couple of assistance with him. He's super busy in the middle of a complicated day. shakes my hand, takes me in for two seconds. Ah, kid, you look great. We'll see you next week. You look great.

You look great. And I stop and I just kind of watch him walk away. And then the panic sets him probably. You don't know if you can do it. Right. But are you also like, I'm magic? It's a rush. It's probably all things.

It's all things. Like I'm sure for your ego it must be like, oh my God, I don't have to do anything. It's a woe moment, but it's also a God. if he had at least seen me read it and it was wrong, then at least I got a place to work from. He had no idea how I was going to play this thing. And by the way, among my favorite things you've ever done. Thank you.

I mean, you really did the impossible. You kind of walk away with a big chunk of that movie in one scene. I mean, they wrote about you in the reviews saying you were smoldering. It's just so strange. Then, okay, so in that week, it's all in the dock and the book, Dad and I go down to take part in a TV show. Oh, this is going to blow your fucking mind. Actors against athletes, and the card we drew was Michael Jordan.

It's a two-on-one-one versus Jordan. It's a three-part competition itself. Free throws? A game of horse and then a two-on-one. Oh, no. Wait until you hear how it plays out, Monica. I mean, do you want to know or you just want to watch it? No, I want to know.

I want to know this. He loves Jordan. We beat him. How is this? No, no, no. Not only did he beat him. This is where he has these absolute mythical strokes of magic. Yeah.

Charlie hit eight free throws in a row. Did you play basketball? No, I played baseball, but I shot with dad in the backyard, like, my whole life growing up. Yeah. Hit an 18-foot jumper in the two-on-two to win the game. Yeah. This is not a normal life. He gets out of treatment.

He's dead. One of his times getting out of treatment. Dad picks him up. He wants to just watch baseball. He loves baseball. They stop by this place, and there's grown men playing a game of baseball in a league. And because they're them, they all of a sudden, they let Charlie take an app back. First swing, out of treatment, life's over, home run.

Of course you're confused. Exactly. Of course you're confused. You've got like superpowers and then you're superhuman. Yeah. You're extra human and you have superpowers. This is too much to like be holding all at once. But on the drive back from the Jordan thing, I've got the scene with me.

On Tuesday or maybe even Monday, I have to report back and do this thing. Yes. And so I read it with Dad in the limo, just having done the Jordan thing, working on Bueller. We read it once. I didn't do anything with it. And he stopped me and said, that's it. You've nailed it. And I was confused.

I was like, I did nothing. And he said it took me 30 years to learn how not to do that. Wow. So that's kind of what I walked in with. And I was really hoping that Hughes was going to be okay with this giant, very specific piece of advice. And he was. But of course, on the day, I overslept and I was two hours late. Really? Oh, wow. Yeah, it was awful.

This is an easy theory to make, and I want you to tell me if you think there's anything realistic to this, which is these things come incredibly easy to you, and something about the subconscious goes, this isn't right, and we're going to fix it. And the way we fix it is we're going to destroy it. Some self-sabotage. Sure. But this was, I think, before. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But there's an inkling of it. It's like, how are you on time to get the job? You get the job too easy. You go win a game with Jordan. Somehow you can't fucking wake up. up on time? That's a good point.

Why can't you wake up on time? You weren't late for the thing. Yeah, that's true. You weren't late for that. You know you got that too easy. And now we're late. You have a reason, but it's suspicious. Yeah, it is suspicious.

Even sitting here today. It doesn't make sense. Yeah. And a lot of your stuff doesn't make sense. You can't draw it up. Right. You can't plan it. If you feel fraudulent, self-sabotage definitely feeds into that, I think.

If you have imposter syndrome, it's like, I don't really know if I deserve this. So I'm going to. I mean, it's also. conscious, not if it's conscious, but it's like I might need to put this really to the test. Right. But another extension of that is when you finally making a bunch of dough, not feeling put on like, oh, now I have to pay for dinner, pay for cars, but wanting to. Oh, you can't wait to.

Wanting to just give it away. Yeah. Because now they're giving me too much. I'm being overpaid for what I believe my skill set is actually worth. Right. And I got to redistribute this or it would be totally crazy. Exactly. Guilt.

Yeah. One of the things I didn't know about you that I got so excited to learn in the dock, and this is so frivolous, but my great, great obsession as a child and to this day is Nick Cage. Oh, wow. Where'd this guy come from? What planet did he drop in on? Nobody knows. Nobody knows. But you guys were like best friends, yeah?

Yeah. And still are tight. Okay, great. We just don't see each other enough because he does more movies than anybody alive, doesn't he? Yeah, yeah. How does he have the energy? What a pairing you two? Yeah, and we were on this collision course.

We found each other for a reason in the way that we did. It was just one of those nights out that I thought would be normal, and it was anything but. What happened? Monica, you remember that my favorite story of him. The plane. Yeah. This is your pilot speaking. I'm not feeling well, and I'm losing control of the aircraft.

Wow. Charlie had an eight ball tape to his leg. Oh, no. Yeah. If it was an a ball. If it was an eight ball, I could have just had. in my breast pocket, you know. It was a fat bag.

Wow. And I didn't want to take off my jacket. And so I was like, oh, I've seen this in movies. I'll tape it down here. Sure. Yeah. Did it work? It didn't work.

No, it stayed. It stayed. It stayed. I just didn't know we would be encountering federal agents when we landed because of the thing that Nick did, you know? Oh, he did that. Oh, that's what caused they did. And then.

The travel companions. We were just entertaining the airplane. Oh, yeah. That's one. Two professional entertainers aboard. Exactly. We were on the. P.A. But Nick hadn't gone yet. There was five of us. We all took the mic and just said stupid things and got silly laughs.

Right. And then Nick was last. And he said, this is your captain speaking. I'm not feeling well. I'm losing control of the aircraft. And the airplane went on tilt. Freaked out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the steward walks right up to him and goes, not cool, man. Not cool. Which sounds like Nick? Not cool. Exactly. Maybe he was trying to find that common language. Yeah. It went from there. Luckily, they were fans. Another thing, a yield sign and not a stop sign, right? The federal agents were fans?

Yeah. Of his films, of mine. Yeah. They were like, all right, all right. Let's just make sure you never do this again, guys. Charlie got to fly an international airplane on the way home from Japan drunk. Paris. Paris, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Yeah, the honeymoon. Yeah, it's all in the book and the dog. You're so lucky to be alive. Do you feel that?

I do. I was having this thought a few times watching it where I was like, man, what is that gap between, you know, why didn't Nick blow up? How can Sean be in the doc pen? And he didn't disintegrate. A lot of us played with fire. And what is that weird little smidgin between you, Downey? But then these other guys who certainly were doing a lot, but they were just one standard deviation above where they coast. It's not a huge gap.

Maybe they were still, are still getting that rush from the work. I don't think they feel as fraudulent. Interesting. I say that not knowing either of them, but that's just my hunch. Yeah, I think they were just doing it at a level that was so committed. Required a focus I was too lazy to tap into. They probably cared deeply about the quality of the work and maybe the accolades or being recognize as being very, very good.

I don't know if you did or not. They had set the bar really high for themselves to then have to top, or at least create performances and fine material that would be super unique, very challenging, and different from what they'd just done. I think they had access to better material. They were trusted more with the stuff that required that level and good for them because that's the thing I would shy from. I would read a script that was like really challenging and way outside.

and get scared. Yeah. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. The other thing I would argue in addition to being that focused on the commitment is also whatever the pain and angst was, that level of medicating was enough for them to find comfort. And your level of pain and discomfort required the amount. you are using. It's not a one-size-fits-all, is it? It's not. What was the very hardest thing for you to talk about in the documentary? It was the sex stuff. Yeah. Again, it was that thing of the way something exists up here and feels in here and finally comes out. And it's the story I wrote about how I'd be

judged, what was going to happen, what the results would be. None of it happened. And it feels better out there than it did in there for so long. It's so curious. I like really mulled over. I'm like, yeah, man, to say that, hey, I've had sex with guys along the way, it's so weird, because if I had met you as gay or met you as by, there's nothing there. What's so weird or interesting is like, but I had him in this category. It kind of speaks to how inflexible are, well, this is a story because I had him in this category. And it's just kind of a testament to how that aspect is interesting. It was pretty crack-fueled.

I don't say that to excuse it or be like, oh, only that thing. Because even if there's an intense drug involved, it still has to open a door of a room that already exists, right? Maybe or maybe not. I'll just give you one example. Our favorite podcast we've ever heard in our life, we share it is this episode of Radio Lab called Blame. And this man who was married and happy and a normal guy, he got this procedure because he had epilepsy and they cut a corridor in his brain so the two sides couldn't fight. Oh, damn. And in the process of doing that, they cut the circuitry from your central brain, your pleasure, all that stuff.

the circuitry to your frontal lobe that says like, oh, yeah, I desire that, but that's insane. We're not going to do that. Right. That got caught. This woman who's lived with this husband gets a knock at the door. She goes downstairs. The Homeland Security is there because he is consuming a tremendous amount of pedophilia pornography. Child pornography.

And she's like, what? That's not my husband. And as they point out in this book, that part of the brain, the reptilian brain, it just wants everything that's an option. Basically, the part they tinkered with released, he had no inhibition. Wow. And it's such an interesting question because it's like, is it his fault? They performed a surgery and now he's different. And there's a medication that can put him back to normal, but he has to serve his time for this thing.

Oh, seriously. Yeah, which he does, but it's a very complex. It's very complicated. But the brain and chemicals, they really can change a person. For sure. It ignites the reward circuitry and you just get stuck in the reward. circuit trigger. Honestly, anything's on the table. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Given a long enough time horizon. Right. And I used the metaphor of the menu that I had exhausted one side of the menu,

like basically everything from every appetizer, every entree, every freaking, all of it, every dessert. And finally just went, oh, there's more on the back. What's all this? Yeah. And the company I was keeping was mostly women in the adult film profession. Yeah. And so they're doing jobs during the day and coming back, telling stories about stuff that's only on that other side. Exactly. And I'm like, oh, wait, so you can put that, and they're like, of course we can. I didn't have to be done secretly. They were just part of it.

All right, this is what we're doing. Yes, yes. It was a relief to talk about it. I bet. And the reason I did, for a couple of reasons, for myself, first and foremost, but prepping for the documentary, the director, Andrew Renzi, who I think is a freaking genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's incredible.

What the hell? He said, look, man, at some point, we got to get into this other thing. The amount of research, he scraped the internet or dove into it in a way like he was an AI program, you know, and found a lot of stories and rumors and stuff about me and said, hey, this is stuff that people have talked about for a long time. How do you feel about us taking a peek at that? Yeah. And I said, all right, sure. Good for you. Thank you.

But because right when we finished my interviews for the doc is really when I was able to really sit down and start the book. I knew, all right, so it's already going to be in the other thing. And if it's not here. And the other thing was that with that amount of crack, if that story or those experiences weren't part of that journey, people would be like, it usually goes there. Yes. This is what we know from being in the rooms. It's like, you hear someone tell a story, you're like 90% there. It's like, well, that's interesting.

Yeah. A hundred out of a hundred other people end up cheating on their wives when they're in that situation. But you didn't? Yeah. So I didn't want to create that vibe that something's things. Yeah, yeah. So there was that part of it. The way it is working out, I think it's cathartic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's humanizing. Like, I think people... Right on. Thank you. Especially celebrities and especially you. You've been, you know, splashed all over the news. People have ideas about you.

And when they hear these stories, like, he's a person with some extraordinary life highlights. I had a pretty good line on a show a few weeks ago. I said, well, I guess I just really wanted to have even more in common with Richard Friar, Marlon, and Mick Jagger. Exactly. All your heroes. Right? What are we doing?

Okay, the part of the doc that was the hardest for me to watch was the 100 city live tour at the height of the Tiger Blood. Yeah, that was awful. Is that the worst? Yeah, that was hard for me to watch. Because you're now confirming what you feared, which is your show sucked. It was 21 cities. I'm sorry. But in 30 days.

It's too much. You don't have a show. It hasn't been written. And guess what? You're dead in front of the people. you're disappointing. Yeah. And this fear that was in the back of your mind, the fucking shadow that's always told you

sucked, you're now sucking. Oh, yeah. In real time. I don't know how you continued to keep doing the life. I mean, of all the crazy endurance you have, that's the one where I'm watching that. And I'm like, oh, my fucking God, if I had to go bomb every night. Crinch city, yeah. I might be suicidal.

But did you care or were you like, you know what? I'm just going to go do drugs. Were you even present enough to care? No, I was off all the drugs. That's the thing, but I wasn't off a specific one, which was testosterone. Your numbers were 4,000. They were, I mean, that's unheard of. Oh, my God.

That's unheard of. It's a royd rage. That's really what that whole thing was. But I guess there were still traces, because to just stop everything, just to prove a point, it still was in my system. Your brain was not well. No. Then I was adding crazy cream all over my body and then like, well, let's take this thing on the road. Now, granted, I could have said, no, that's a bad idea.

But then they start throwing out the numbers. and they start feeding the ego. And then the first thing sells out in like 11 minutes. You're like, all right, okay. The people want to see this. You're like, see what? See what? Okay.

I tried to build the show at my house for like a month. Oh, wow. Like all these brilliant comedic minds coming in life. Yeah, Todd was there, Phillips? Yes. I wasn't listening to anybody. I was just going to do it my way. You're going to wing it.

What was the pain of that on stage when the fun of it wore off? The rubber-necking spectacle wore off. Sure. They're turning. They hate this. I'm stuck on the stage. It was between cities. It was the trudge to the next city knowing...

Dude, I can throw up. I know, right? And then they brought in Jeff Ross. Oh, thank God. Who brought comedy and just some life to it. But then he had other stuff he had to do. So we do like five shows and people seem happier about it. Less disappointed.

They'd have to cut out. I'd be back on my own. And that's why in the book, I don't write about the tour. I write about on the eve. what took place before the first show in Detroit. That's how I feel about the tour. I clogged the toilet in the hotel because I'd

been so backed up. And I had two girls in the other room that I was traveling with and that drug keeps you very frisky. Right. Yeah. I wrecked, we'll say. Testosterone, that's literally the point of it. And so the only way back to that fantasy

was for that toilet to flush and it wasn't. And so I had to build something to get to, yeah, I know, I know. But if you think about the symbology of everything, right? It's 100 pounds of shit and a five pound toilet. It is, yeah, literally. So that's why that is the only story about that freaking tour.

Wow. Yeah. And I'm glad that at least it's covered in the dock in a way where people can go on that journey. I think if you're a performer, you're watching that, and you're just like, oh, my God, kill me. I mean, it's literally your nightmares when you get into this. Yeah. You kind of kind of walked through. a nightmare for a while. That's interesting that you point that out. Yeah, man. It killed me.

Wow. Because you're confirming the fear you've had since you're 20 years old. Interesting. Your subconscious, your shadow, you brought yourself to your greatest fear. I suck. You proved it to yourself. I did. It's not the embarrassment of this or the interview on the talk show. Right. It's the actually bringing your fear to life in the most palpable, real way is wild psychologically. And making a false promise to those people that they were in for. a night of fun and folly, you know? Yeah. That's why I descended into just a pit of complete darkness and went silent after I got home

from that. I thanked everybody for their time and just decided to enlist a whole new crew. And that's when all the other shit started. Yeah. I just needed to get so freaking numb. I have three more questions I'm going to try to get in quick because you've given us so much your time and I love it. Thank you.

And I'm sorry that every question turns into like this long. No, that's what we love. That's exactly what we love. And actually never really even answers the fucking question. This is exactly what we like. The one question I have, and this is just nosy, but the one thing I was a little wanted from the doc, and I'm not to that point in the book,

is what's happening financially? You made so much fucking money. Do you not still make a lot of money on 2 and F, Matt? I don't. Were those like buyouts of residuals? Based on choices that I made during anger management, I came to this place where everybody thinks that, oh, because that contract and all this,

I think I only did eight episodes at that fee. That crazy fee, okay. Which is still more than... Sure. Anyone deserves? Yeah. Yeah. I had a crooked business manager at the time.

I said, I haven't felt rich. I want to feel rich. So I want to buy an airplane, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, well, no, no, no, no, I can buy half of this one airplane. And he's like, well, the front or the back. I'm like, fuck off, right? So I did that, and I got this giant line of credit.

And then lived like a rock star. A billionaire. Yeah. And loved it until... I got to tell Monica, he was spending... $15,000 to $30,000 a day on crack. It was a lot. Can you compute that?

There was a moment and it's in the dock and it's pretty cool and it's in the book where my supplier, my middleman was a guy named Marco, a terrific guy. And his south of the border connection was where it was coming from. And they at one point said, we got to talk to your guy because we didn't give him permission to be a dealer. He's a customer, not a distributor. Yeah, exactly. And it was this moment where we had to convince them.

I'm smoking it. No, it's all for me. Yeah, yeah, they were like, oh, okay, well, geez. Carry on, good man. Is he okay? But carry on good man, for sure. Every fiddler at some point needs to get paid for those dances. And it came time to pay off that line of credit.

And the only asset I had was my back end on two and a half, which would pay in increments quarterly. Six people had their hands in it. Yeah. So the time it got to me, it was still more money than anyone deserves. Yeah, 10,000 people could live on. But it still didn't. satisfy, crazy. And so I chose to not be held hostage by the bank and just sold that and paid that

and just wiped the slate. I understand the decision. Yeah. And the universe plays fair sometimes. And I think a lot of that stuff was taken from me because the excesses that it was funding. I was not a good steward of it. The universe has a way of taking things away that you're not a good steward of. And I think the reduction, the night and day, like shut down of that kind of earning power. or at least access to it. I think that's another thing that saved my life. Yeah. You know, when I quit drinking,

I think it's covered differently in the book than it is in the dock. I was at a place where it was okay to just reattach myself to very basic things and at the same time, the most important people in my life, children, family, old friends. Yeah.

And so I didn't need that kind of wealth to feel rich with all these kids who suddenly didn't care about a TV rating or a salary thing. Well, you had this most beautiful moment in the dock, and this is where it's just absolutely gut-wrenching and beautiful, which is his daughter had to be somewhere, and he would never drive her drunk, and he sent his driver, and he had joined her,

and they're together with a driver. Well, it was Tony Todd. It was actually my best friend. Oh, yeah, he's the most lovely guy. Yeah, he's terrific. Yeah, went through. What he's seen. Never ever used, and was along for the whole ride to make sure Charlie didn't die.

Yeah. Beautiful dude. So, so much. It was a hair appointment that I had just completely forgotten about. And I'm a Virgo and I don't forget a lot of stuff. Sam. Yeah, but when you disappoint a child, that's the worst feeling in the world. When's your birthday? August 24th.

Oh, okay. I'm September 3rd. Oh. Yeah. Close. So it was just this moment coming home in the car. You know, we were on time, thanks to Tony. Sam got her thing taken care of. I was in the front seat and I could see her in the mirrors.

I could see her in the side and also in the visor. And I just saw her back there and I'm not clairvoyant, but I could feel the thoughts about, why isn't it just me and dad? How old was she? 12 or 13. Why isn't it just me and dad like it used to be? Had an awakening. I have to make a decision, decisions, to never have this happen again.

Like a sacred vow to the forces that I believe in. You can call it God and did. There was another thing in the mix. That's what started. That was the catalyst for sure. It was that just one really beautiful, magical, cosmic freaking moment. And it happened in such a simple circumstance.

It's not a third act resolution. It's not cinematic. It's so tiny. That somehow breaks through in that moment, which is suspicious and interesting. Yeah, the biggest thing showed up in, I don't want to call it the smallest moment. But there's no yelling.

She didn't go, Dad, why don't you love me? You just looked at her and you saw it all. And then right after that, there had been some advances with the HIV meds. They said, look, we want you to change your cocktail. I'm going to shrink it and try these two new things, but here's the kicker. You can't drink on this one.

The other, you could drink your face off, and they worked fine. As you've been doing. Why did they tell me that? Right. Why did they tell me that, right? I said, all right, I'll not drink for a month and see how the pills are working. And they were working great. I was like, okay, let's do another month.

That just turned into a thing. You were able to, wow. Sam started it, but then this other thing that was like my life was at stake. I'm not saying it wasn't with the other shit, but they showed up at the same time. And I don't believe in coincidences. You kind of asked for help from the universe and it gave it to you. Exactly. Here's my hardest question.

Oh, Jesus. This is the last one. Those were easy ones? I weeded out one of them. This is the last one. So I am watching this doc and I'm just falling in love with you and I know everyone that will watch it will fall in love with you. And I know everyone that will watch this will be in love with you.

Right on. And the pattern's so insanely obvious. It's like ridiculous. The pattern is you get a ton. you fucking obliterate you got nothing you somehow get a ton you obliterate it and so i'm watching it and i'm loving you and i know how everyone's going to feel and i know you're going to have another opportunity to go be brilliant on a sitcom thank you or film or whatever it is yeah and that terrifies the fuck out of me interesting wow i'm so scared for you to be given all the shit again are you

afraid of i'm not has it crossed your mind of course okay okay of course okay yeah no i'm cautious about I even thought of my own role in this. Like, do I want to play a role in it? And getting people to love you and root for you and let you be back up there where I do think you have the talent to be and deserve. Do I want to play a role in that? I don't ever want to see you on TV again fucked up. Me neither.

And I literally had to think ethically, like, do I want to be a part of this process? Because I now love this dude from afar. Wow. And you understand that. And I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't been in a professional environment in a long time where I was there for all the right reasons that I was contributing in a high-stakes, creative environment. With the right intention.

Yeah, man. It's not about proving it. It's just about feeling that again. By feeling that, I think there's proof in that that, that he's back here for the right reasons. And I think the work will show that. Whatever that work turns out to be. Let's put it this way. We have a great adage in our secret society, which is doing the same thing over and over again.

and then expecting different results is the definition of insanity. So I guess my curiosity is as you enter into that, the game plan has to already be a place. Like, oh, what are we going to do differently this time? We're not going to wait until we're there to figure out what we're going to do differently. We're going to know what we're doing differently before we get there. It's not my place to challenge you like this. It's just as someone who loves you and is in this fellowship,

I want to know that there's a game plan that we don't wait to wake up. Sure. I'm going to honor my word. That's what it comes down to. honor my word to myself, honor my word to the job, to the people that are trusting me with that job, that's what's different. Things change at 60. Right. It's like you start figuring out, okay, 10,000 days, what's that? It's like 27 years or something. How do I really want to spend those? Yeah. Because I know what the other 10,000 looked like and how I felt and just what came out of that.

It doesn't fit anymore. There's no place to do it sneakily. You know what I'm saying? There's no real estate for it. No. You can't even carve out the niche or some opportunity or some secret moment. It can't be a part of it. I just adore you. Oh, thank you. Likewise. You're so fucking lovable.

And I'm just thrilled to see you doing so well. I really am. Yeah. No, this is incredible. And I didn't even remember that you made a joke at my expense. Well, yeah, no. I'm thrilled that I got to close that song. Yeah.

Well, Charlie, I adore you. Please come back. Yeah. Come back. I'll come back. Sure. I'll come back and talk about the thing that I didn't screw up. Yeah.

That's right. I look forward to that. That would be cool. Yay. Thank you. Stay tuned for the facts check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong. Oh. Just got back from a hike. Third morning in a row.

Wow. Yeah. That's fun. Friend of the pod is visiting. Yeah, one of my premier boyfriends. Yeah, Vincentonofrio. My biggest and sweetest. Yeah, he's so nice.

Yeah. We were talking on the hike, and he was expressing some confusion by why any women have liked him. And I said, oh, it couldn't be more obvious. Yeah. It's so obvious. He's such a nice boy. He's so big and protective, yet you sense that he needs some nurturing. Yeah, it's a good combo.

What could be more appealing? Yeah, it's a very appealing combo. I feel it towards them. Yeah, I know. God, is he a sweetheart? I mean, well, I have something to talk about. Oh, wonderful. I'm going to the airport.

Oh, not wonderful. I'm sorry. I thought it might be something different. It's okay. Oh, wonderful. It's okay. I'm going to the airport. Two things about that.

One, I'm in my airport outfit. It's very cute. Thank you. It's an exceedingly cute outfit. You have your polo bear shirt on that you love. You have to think things through. when you like fashion and you go to the airport. Right.

It's a big coming out party, right? Yeah, people like really dress specifically. And I never do that. I always just wear sweats. Yeah, yeah. But I've been thinking more about trying to look cute at the airport. Sure. It's because it seems like a really fertile place for a meat cute.

Exactly. There's all these built-in questions. Yeah. Maybe you're on the same page like, oh, I hate delays. Even better, you're delayed and you're watching someone lose their shit. And you look over and there's like a cute guy who's also thinking like, oh, this person's berserking. And then you go like, huh. I see you.

Yes. We both, we recognize that. So now we're on the same team. We're on that we're sane team. That's a great place to start. We're same. But I don't want to be. I'm a same.

We're sane. Yes, yes. Same same. And although I don't, I don't know about, you know, commiserating over someone else's misery. Not their misery. Their behavior. their shitty behavior towards the clerk at the gate, whatever we're calling the gate attendant.

Yeah, that's right. Injustice. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Or to be embarrassed for someone as good. Sure. I am in first class. Like if you saw someone yelling like, oh, yeah. I paid $2,300 for this ticket.

And you'd be like, oh, and then you'd look over. You'd be going just like this, like, ugh. And you look over and the guy would be like this. And then you go, oh, this is cute. We're both. And what's your name? What is your name anyways? Anyways.

Well, I hope that happens. That would be a great turn of events. Yes. But anyway, part of the airport outfit situation for me, though, is I'm really not, I do, this maybe is the only time. I really prioritize comfort as well. Of course, yeah. And so I have to wear some sort of tennis-like shoe, some sort of comfortable shoe. Uh-huh.

And pockets. I had on other pants, and I realized, nope, I had to put on these. These are less cute than the ones I had on. They're still cute pants. But, okay. They're still good pants. They get your word. But pockets.

But what scares me about these trousers you're wearing is, sure, pockets, but so flowy, doesn't everything fall immediately out of these pockets when you sit down? No. And it's not mainly for the sitting. It's walking through the airport. I like to have my phone in my pocket. not in my bag. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And sometimes, yeah, my ticket or my wallet. Yeah. Is that unsightly? Yeah, I don't know if we're allowed to say that anymore in 2025. But yeah, so I, um. When you're having your meet with the guy, I want you to go like, oh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed. You've caught me with my wallet in my pocket.

And I don't want you to hold that against me. I don't normally do that. It's an airport thing? What are your airport thing? Yeah. And then you realize for that first time he's holding a sphere or something or whatever you call it a staff. Oh. And he goes, this.

And you're like, oh, my God, I didn't even see that. Yeah, you're holding like a four foot staff. What's that about? Right. I thought you were just a wizard. Oh, my God. That's so exciting. I can't go ahead.

No, no. You can go ahead. No. We'll circle back. No. I don't want to. This is going to take up a lot of the conversation. So I assume this is probably not.

Okay. Have you seen the photos by chance of Eric's day? traveling the world. Oh, some, yes. Friend of the pot, Eric Richardson. Yes. His dad has, like, just been gone for a year. He started in Ecuador for a while.

He was living in Prout. So now I got this picture of him in Egypt. Can you see that? Oh, my gosh. And he does walk with the staff. Yeah, he does. Well, he's older. Yes, and I'm going to show you one more.

Look at this. And he's doing cute things. He's holding up glasses in front of the sphinx. He's doing such cute things. Yes. He's like, you know, when you're like, pinching your how do you say this like a force perspective where you are pinching something far in the distance yeah acting as if you're holding it yes and he's got sunglasses on the sphinx but i took a couple

look at those photos and i said he is a wardrobe away from being a wizard look at this photo i made oh you made that that's really doesn't he look so cute as a wizard he does did you add the beard or was that that's his real beard wow yeah all he had he had he had is a crushed felt cape and a crushed felt vest. So the first one I did, by the way, this was insanely easy. Okay, I was, first of all, I'm impressed. I assume you did this via AI. I did.

Okay. And I had never done this. I've had it create images like, I want a Chevy van with cool wheels. Right. This was, I uploaded the photo of him and I said, can you put a wizard's cap and a purple cape on this man? Yeah. And within 25 seconds, there it was.

And it looks really good. It looked really good. I was really proud of it. I sent it to Eric. Yeah. And then the second photo, I was like, I'm going to give this thing a little more liberty. Instead of saying, I just said, make the man in this photo look like a wizard. And then AI put him in a vest and put a little glowing thing on his sphere.

Did a great job. Wow. It looks like something someone great at Photoshop would have spent a week on it. Exactly. That when you first said you made it. You were suspicious. Yeah. I was like, you made that.

That's good. I'm not even fair to say I made it. That's the ethics around this. But you did. It didn't exist until I got involved. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

Okay, just the staff made me think of that. That's really cute. Well, it's actually sort of a ding, ding, ding because Eric's dad is older and he's in Egypt. Yeah. Like, he's out and about. He's really not. He's a young friend. Yeah, he's a young friend.

And he's not letting life, like, get him down. He's pinching the pyramid. that's so wonderful. I know. And I really love people who are really just, like, taking life on. And for me, it makes me really optimistic, like, wait, I could have an adventure like that still in 40 years from now? Exactly. Yeah.

It's very life-affirming. I love that. And, okay, so I have bad news personally. Yeah. Um, there was a sudden pretty tragic death in my family on my dad's side. Uh, my aunt drowned. It's a really weird thing to say. It is.

Um, my first question to you was like, is there foul play? That's so weird. Yeah. And of course that they did have to rule that out. Yeah. Um, she was older too, but also very like. Eric's dad, she would travel all the time and she, yeah, it was very, like, vital and enjoying life. So it was very, it was just very shocking on so many levels.

Yes. And my parents had just seen her a couple months ago and she was, um, great. Yeah. So, yeah, my mom, she, you know, I'm so bad at this. Like, when I'm sleeping, I don't hear the phone ringing. Right. I just don't hear it. So I didn't hear it.

They obviously called me. and then I woke up to text, of course, and my mom was like, Aunt Lily died. I'm, that's my, I'm named after her. Yeah. Call me, call me, you know, and I was like, of course, expecting, like, some sort of heart attack or natural, more natural. Yes. So, of course, it's all very shock. Everyone's in shock.

And I'm leaving today, obviously, to go be with my family. In the great state of Washington, yeah. Yes, that's where she lived. And where her daughter was. You're going at the perfect time of year. Yeah, I think it'll be nice. No, they always, September's always the nicest month in Washington. It's their warmest month.

It's very Indian summer, always there. Well, Indian, ding, ding, dang. Oh, wow, double one time. Yeah. Yeah, she was Indian. She was Indian. For people who don't know. But, yeah, so it's been a lot to process and deal with.

And, but, you know, she really is an inspiration. Mm-hmm. She was a single lady. She did a lot of things. Very successful. Extremely successful. She came to this country. She went to like the big, the best business school in India.

And she came to this country. And she started all these businesses. And she was very successful. She brought my dad over. Yeah. Like, you know, she kind of like shepherded him. As much as I know about your family, this was a revelation when you told me she had come first. Yeah.

and brought your dad over. Yeah. Since you've told me that it's funny what things, what little details can all of a sudden explain so much. Like there's a lot about your dad. Yeah. That was an enigma to me. Oh.

And not knowing that piece of the puzzle. This is kind of like Saul, like his respect and deference for women. Yes. Don't kill me. Coming from a culture that maybe sometimes that's not the, you know. Sure. I just think he's.

uniquely not threatened by a strong woman. His wife was a gangster and he supported it. And I'm like, oh, yeah, he had a badass sister who actually paved the way for him to come here. Yes. I get, now I get it. Yeah. Yes, that is correct. And mother who allowed all that to happen too, you know.

But yeah, my dad is a little brother. He's the youngest of all these kids, you know. He's little brother energy. And he has... You should like it more than. I don't know. But I can still eye roll at it. But I like that he's a little brother.

So he and Neil must have a shared language to some degree. Well, they have older sisters. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You must see Neil in a unique way. Probably. I've never even really thought about that.

I don't know if he's even thought about that. Like I see Delta in a unique way because I was a little sibling. Exactly. she's going through. Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah, probably. But yeah, he, he, you know, obviously has a very special relationship with her. So I was, and then, you know, I'm like worried about my dad.

And it's all, it's just all. It's like so much. And then, you know, and then there's guilt because I'm like, oh, like, oh. Like I get kind of mad at all of it. Like this is so upsetting. this happened this is hate this is inconvenient sure sure sure you know like death is really inconvenient it rarely falls on spring break or and then that's inconvenient in its own way like you know it's not there's never a great time there's never a great time and let's take one second

though if we had to pick the time I have the time for me okay January 2nd it's like already yeah but it's already the shittiest day everyone's always like you've already had all the fun you can have and it feels so long before you're going to have something fun again. It's like, yeah, let's just throw it in there because it's already going to be a slump. So let's just do it then. I think that's the ideal. You don't want it leading in the summer. You don't want it over one of the holidays. Right? What about the third? So at least you got one more, you were one age older. That's fine. Well, I would still be one age older on the second because that's officially when I. I count it. We don't. We don't.

We don't want to ruin New Year's day. No. Right. We got to watch football that day. The second is the shittiest day of the year. I think objectively. No, I don't like any of this because then it's like the year starts with this horrible thing. Then in my head, I'm like, this is the worst year.

It's a bad year. That's a fair pushback. So maybe the 31st or, well, maybe the funeral on the 31st so that you. You can start- On New Year's Eve? Well, I just want to go to a funeral on New Year's Eve. Okay, the 28th or something? You want to like a great meal. Because I just want the New Year to start clean.

Clean, okay. Okay. Now, I hate what we just did. Okay, so please knock on it. My pitch is January 2nd or late April in Michigan when it's like you thought summer came and then it didn't. Now the winner's back and you're already like, fuck all this. Again, throw it there where you're already going to be miserable.

So just cap out the misery when you're already experiencing it. Don't taint any of the joy. Okay. Put it all in one bag. I see what you mean, but also it could really push someone over the edge if they're already feeling miserable. To the breaking point. Yeah. And so we don't, I don't, I think we need to rethink some of it.

Although, okay, this is fun. I think there's a limit of how shitty you can feel. Like, I've hit it before, right? It's like, I feel so shitty. Yeah. And then, like, I'm just at the bottom for long enough. that I go, I don't even know what the actual switch is that flips, but I go, yeah, that's it, I can't feel any better and I can't feel any better any longer.

I just almost like I get fatigued of being so shitty. Yeah, but I know what you mean and I have felt that, but I've also like, I have thought if one more thing happens, like my body will not be able to take it. Like it's already I can feel my nervous system is like really teetrily. And if we get another something, critical mass. I don't know. Then I'll die and then my dad will be, oh, my God, imagine that. No, nuts don't even ever.

Okay. You're not getting on a lot of things that don't necessarily deserve knocking, but that one shouldn't be sad. Whatever. Anywho, so she was very special to him and very special in general. And she did things her own way and she did a lot of things Indian people don't do. She got divorced. Yeah, good for her. She, you know, was very independent. You know, had these houses, dyed her hair, fun colors. Like, she's just a very unique woman. She ever shave her sides? She would have. She would have. She definitely would have. We should have had a meal

or something. Yeah. Yeah. Um, very spunky. And, you know, it's not really lost on me that I have a lot of that. And that makes me feel proud, but also I'm like, oh my God, because I'm not going to get into the details of the drowning, obviously. But, you know, she did things her own way. And she decided to do things that maybe were not advisable.

You know, I'm going this way too. I mean I know you can't this is my this is a cautionary you know I'm gonna be 96 me like I can hang glide I never tried it but exactly yeah this is cautionary tale time because I am like but you know whatever I guess it's like no right because that's what got her to this place where you admire her that's exactly the whole thing it's like this thing yes this thing that made her live this very special life is also sort of the thing that may have taken her down. Yes. But for her, and that's probably the way she would have wanted it. I mean, I don't think anyone would ever want to drown. I mean, that's the thing that's, I think, messing with everyone's had so much is like there was likely suffering. We can imagine how much suffering there would be. Exactly. And that's horrible. That's brutal. But someone with her, what I feel like I understand her personality to be in mind. Yeah. If I have the choice of going out in control, something I chose to do versus some crazy disease that just snags my dad, right?

Like three months goodbye. Yeah, I'd rather die a year earlier and have it on my terms for me. Yeah. I mean, I hear you. I think, again, there's just so many different personalities. I don't think she probably felt in control when she was drowning. No, but she died by a decision she made, not that the universe made for her. That's right.

And in some ways, what's what? The universe did make it. Like, we, you know, I don't know. I don't know. And it's been really interesting because, you know, my parent, my aunt, this aunt, Aunt Lily, and my grandpa on my dad, on my mom's side, sorry, on my mom's side, who passed away a couple years ago, who I was very, very close with. They are the reason my parents are married.

they met through work, and they were like, let's... They started meddling. Yeah. Let's put these two people together. They might be a good fit. And then my cousin... You think they shook on it? Well, no.

My cousin sent me, she found this letter. It was from my grandpa to my aunt. Oh, wow. And it has a picture of my mom. Oh. And it's like, you know, it's so special. And it is like, Was he saying what a great catch he would be?

I also can't read it very well. It's very scrawly handwriting. So I'm only making out certain words. But it is, you know, you can like my daughter and my dad's names in there. And it's kind of, and it's basically like, let's have them meet and then see if they're compatible and then it's up to them. So it was kind of this like, you know, half arrangement. But it's so weird to see that piece of. of history.

Yeah. And even the times are just so different. Like, yeah, if they were now, none of this probably would have happened. They would have gone on each other's Instagram and find four things they don't, they decide were deal breakers. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

And yeah. And yeah, it's like this origin story and it's so wild. I really hope. You should write something about it. It feels like there's fun pieces in there to write. Yeah. But, you know, they're both gone now. Both of those people.

and, and, but it led to this, like, beautiful thing. Yeah. And it's special. I know. Wouldn't be here without those two. When you're at the memorial, will you say, my friend Dax wanted you thank you for pulling him out of the financial shadowy lift under his wife? Maybe you can send me that in a text.

I don't know if I'll be able to remember it. I'll pull up my phone and I'll read it. I had a friend say, I thought very, I thought very poignantly, when someone exits the physical world, it really just like unearths all the ghosts for the people still here. She's like, that's the haunting. It's not the person coming back. It's all your stuff coming up. And I was like, that's right.

Yeah, yeah. So anyway, that's that I'm going to go. We're going to celebrate her life. Great. Okay, well, kind of, is it following the guidelines of any existing tradition or will this would be its own thing? I'm not, I'm not sure. Okay.

Well, I'll find out. Anyway, so that's, that's my update. Yeah, that's a big update. It's a big update. But, you know, got to be grateful. Can't imagine you were in a state of mind to go do this, but you didn't happen to see one problem after another, did you? I'm dying to see it.

I saw it yesterday. One battle. Oh, one battle. Sorry, sorry, sorry. One battle after another. Did you see it, Rob? Yeah, I saw it. Did you love it?

Yeah, I loved it. It's fucking awesome, man. On a bunch of levels, one, the acting's insane. And this is Leonardo de guy. I don't say anything new, but my God, he just will not quit being fucking brilliant. So brilliant. Does it move kind of fast because it's long? And I, you know, I have some aversion now to long movies.

I could not tell it was long. Okay, great. I had not looked at the runtime before I went, but it is a mega movie. You're like you, there's so much in it. Yeah. What were you about to say, Rob? The music in it is incredible, too. Music was incredible.

It's Johnny Greenwood did it from Radiohead. Oh, cool. Yeah, music's awesome. The needle drops are awesome, like Steely Dan's in it. It's great. Benzio's fucking awesome. Champin is insane. He's absolutely insane.

saying. And then of course, it's a daddy daughter story, which I didn't even know going in. Yeah. And so, sure, we get to the end of the movie. And I'm like, don't spoil. I'm not spoiling anything. I just know that I was like watching, watching. I was like, and I was like, I lean over there. I can I go, I cannot do these daddy daughter things. I'm like interstellar. I didn't understand one thing that was going on, but I knew that he was going to miss his daughter's life and I was heartbroken. Interstellar is the is the most like devastating. It's such.

And I don't even know what's going on. I know. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because there's a daddy daughter thing happening. And there's one in this. So it's like, I'm not even sure how, like when I recommend it, I like, I don't know. I was moved beyond belief because there isn't anywhere someone could hide on planet. I feel bad for, oh, sorry, Rob.

That's his son. Dads and sons don't get the same treatment, and it doesn't mean... It's a different thing. We get adolescence. Oh, my gosh. That's the reward. Oh, no. We get adolescents.

Yeah, it's not fair because it's not fair because it's not true. Sons and dads, it's different, but it's still, it's such an important. Oh, my God. What's cool about father's son, with the potentials that's there, is that you can idolize your dad. Yeah. And you can have this little boy who's trying to grow up and be like you, which is so moving, I think.

Like, I don't have that piece, which sounds fun a little bit. Well, okay, I take it all back. Beautiful boy. Yes, but again, that's adolescence, yeah. I know. God, it's true. All those stories are just. Yeah, I was racking my brain.

And then I just thought of the other thing, which is like, hit runs on Netflix now. Oh, I know. So exciting. Which made me so happy. I was so happy to be able to go to Netflix and hit play on the movie. That's awesome. And I wanted to just hit play on the movie.

Yes. And then I got completely sucked in. And then the family got sucked in. And we watched it again. Fun. It was so fun. And then I was even at the end of it, I was like, it's so weird. I chose to do father's son in that.

Which is not as interesting. And I think after seeing the other movie last night, I'm like, I'm not really sure why that was my... Well, the kids weren't born. The kids weren't born. I obviously had unresolved stuff with my dad, I guess. My dad sees me in that movie. The first thing he does is punches me. Right.

But I just was like, oh, this is really weird. Like, I don't know that you know what you're processing when you're doing stuff. Yeah. And then after maybe it makes sense. And maybe even that's bullshit. Yeah. The way you make it make sense. But I don't know.

I just like, oh, that's so interesting that that was the device. advice I decided to use to let Annie see Charlie again in a different way, as opposed to doing it with his mom per se. Yeah. I don't even know where, I don't know if Charlie has a mom in that movie. Like that's not even the thing I even decided as a writer, right? Yeah, I think there's a, there's a trope, but based on reality that like sons and dads can have, that's complicated and moms and daughters. that's complicated. Yeah, yeah.

So, I mean, it makes sense in a story when it's complicated. And you want conflict. Yeah, and I think maybe, even though, again, this isn't true, like Rain Wilson's story, you might be like, a mom wouldn't not want to see the son. Or that wouldn't, like, it's like harder to believe. Yes, yes, yes. Or not be immediately forgiving. Yeah.

But, yeah, fathers and sons can get in these wars. Yeah. Or it's just two proud males. And in a weird way, you're always fighting over masculinity. And when does that torch pass? And when do you see me as a real man? And then part of the definition of being a man is like, I don't apologize. And I, you know, and I, so it's like, it's just so ripe for.

There's like proving something because I think when you're a boy to a mom, you can always be a boy. Yes. But you don't feel like you can be that with a dad, but you're trying to show your dad, you're a man. You want him to look at you and go, you did it. You're a man and I'm proud of the man you are. And then you think the way you'll prove that to him is you will challenge him. Right, which is not. It doesn't go well.

Doesn't go well. Doesn't tend to go well. Yeah. Boy, I don't. But I'm excited to see that movie. I'm really excited. It's so good. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Fuck, it's so good. it kills me that we'll probably never talk to Leo, you know? You know he went on New Heights. But he did, but he, but he, but he, with Benizio. With Benizio. And he's, and he went on Mark Marin with Brad. Oh yeah, a long time ago.

Yeah. Like he, it seems like clear he'll never do a one on one. I don't know. I mean, I'm not going to give up on the dream. A lot of dreams have come true. Yeah, that's right. But there, there's a couple people that I just want to flight. I want to, I want to, I want them to come in and I want to blow them for two hours.

Yeah, but we also need. to ask them questions. And you, you can handle that. But like, I want to do that to Tom Cruise. Yeah. Like, I want to have him on and not talk about Sainzhal, you know, all the other stuff everyone wants to. I just want to, I want to tell him what a gift he's given this country for the last 35 years.

Well, that is fine. But also remember that when we started this, we were like, doesn't matter. The top of the mountain is not interesting. It's, it's all these other things. It's the human things. Yeah. I don't want him to come on. we berate him about Scientology, but I want to know about him.

I do too, but, but let's just say, if we do a thousand of these and like five of them are just a celebration of somebody, I also don't mind that. Wow. Yeah, I don't feel like I'll be betraying the covenant so much. I have so much curiosity about who they are without that layer. Yes. And generally, that's my curiosity. Yeah.

But it is interesting. There are a handful of people that I am actually. so blown away with their work that I'm interested in it. Because I'm not interested in someone's acting. Right. I don't really care because I do the thing and I don't think it's that incredible. Yeah. But when I think of what Tom Cruise has done so consistently and this thing that Adam Scott

told me like when we were bonding over our obsession with him and Adam said his unique talent and I think he said what he does better than anyone's ever done it is he is not acting for himself or for the director for anything. He's acting for the audience. from the audience and he understands exactly what the audience needs in every moment. Yeah. The way he, like his mastery of understanding what it's going to be when you're sitting in a seat and watching it on a big screen is like something no one's ever had.

And that I want to know how he gets to that. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. Leo, I'm quite interested because what I've been able to gather in my fascination with him is, like, he's not a huge acting technique guy. And that between takes, he's like just totally back to normal immediately and then it's action. He can pop into that. Like, does he think there might just be mad? Like, what it? How can he do what he does?

I'm very curious. Well, I imagine. I mean, he was, he's been doing this for so long at such a high level. Like, Gilbert Grape is a. Two or to fours. Yeah. Acting job for an adult that would be impossible to pull off. And he did it as a kid.

So I think he's, he's probably had a lot of reinforcement that like, I can do it. Yes. And I read an interview around that time. It was when he had done this boy's life. Uh-huh. The Tobias Wolf book. Yeah. And I loved that movie.

And I had read. that De Niro would get frustrated with him because De Niro needs to be grinding and working and processing and they'd be between these really heavy scenes and as soon as he'll cut Leo would be like pulling a prank on somebody and De Niro is like focus

he thought he needed to teach this kid to focus but he didn't need to because somehow Leo could just always be that. He has trust in himself I think he might be like a god like he's an acting god like he has a different or maybe he's got a 47th chromosome or something.

There's some mystery there that I need to know about. That's what I want to know. But I don't think that's going to, I think we'll, we'd find that out in like his family. Like, I wanted to know about his family. That's the answer. The thing, well, now, Leo's different than Tom. Yeah. Leo, I do want to, because Leo is a punk kid on the Hollywood streets.

Yeah. And that, of course, fascinates me greatly. Yeah. He's an unlikely. He still looks so good. It's so annoying. Yeah, he's a stud. I know, but like...

Enough already? Well, no, he's like, you know, he only dates these, like, young people. I know people, this is, I mean, I don't know if we dare. There are so many people that are really mad about that. It's generally now when I hear, when his name is brought up, it's like, it's all, like, everyone... It's always. They've really latched on to that. And I understand it. But then there is also a part of me that, like, believes greatly in liberty.

So it's like, if you, if this 23-year-old girl, is dying to be with him. Yeah. And he is dying to be with her. I'm not really seeing the moral conundrum here. No one's saying, it's not like he's with 17-year-olds. No one is saying that he shouldn't be allowed. The thing is like, how can you be this age?

I mean, we've talked about this about other people, right? Well, I couldn't date a 22-year-old personally. Yes. And I think you've said about other people who you know well, like what it means. But can I really quickly put a caveat on that? Yeah. My issue there, because, yes, I have said between you and I, friends of my, my issue there is they have a proclaimed goal of having a family. And then their actions don't match that at all because they shouldn't start a family with someone who's 22.

They should start a family with someone that's around their age and at that point in their life. Right. So my issue with that is like, don't act like you want this and then do the opposite of how you would get there. Sure. But it's not a judgment of like. People are hot for each other, man. Like, I don't know how one has an issue with that. It's not an issue.

It's not. Everyone can do whatever they want. But there is, like, the older you get, the more you understand how different younger people are than you, even me. Like, you know. Unless he hasn't mature. But that's the whole thing. That's really what it's kind of saying is like, are you, I mean, he said that, I guess. He said, like, I have the emotional maturity of a 30-something.

The limited stuff I see in between movies, he is at like nightclubs and stuff. Is he still? I think so. And I'm like, yeah, this guy's like a kid and he like goes and pretends at work and then he gets off and then he asks, yeah, I don't. Yeah, but all that's, like, that's fascinating for people, right? Is it possible, though, that this is what the deep thing's going on? And I'm really afraid to even suggest this, but I do, I'm just going to ask you what you think. Okay.

What is deeply unfair in life on this planet is that as men age, their options don't diminish. And as women age, their options diminish. And it's completely unjust and unfair. Right. That's definitely a play. And so is it possible that for women, when they see him with this young person, what it's really reminding them of is this injustice that they're not allowed to maintain their appeal and attract and as they age yet men are. And as he may be shouldering.

Well, it's if the world doesn't look at women that way. Right. Everyone's aging. Yes. Yes. And I'm agreeing. It's like it's an injustice. It is not fair that men can still play sex symbols in their 60s.

And they're not, they don't let women do that. Yeah. So it's deeply unfair. Yeah. I can, I totally agree with that. But are we asking this one person to shoulder the weight of that anger and, And I also don't know that I agree with that. And I think of the 24-year-old super hot for Leo, which I believe she is.

Yeah, I believe she is. I'm not, he's not coercing anyone. That's not, and I don't, no one thinks that. Right. But I think two things are happening. One, yes, I'm sure that's at play. There's like, but I do think, and not for everyone, but I do think for a lot of people when they hear that, they're like, oh, man. Like, there's a little bit of like, oh, he's not as serious.

person. Like I hate, that's like a mean thing to say. And I don't know that it's true. But like, yes, how old is he? My age. She's 50. He's 50. Okay. So if he's 50 and he's only dating 25 and younger, there's a sense of like, oh, my idea of him is not what he is. He's not what you want him to be. Yeah, exactly. There's like disappointment. And that's not on him. It's not. And where I think people, have a business in complaining or judging is in movies when they can't. And like when you watch movies from the 80s and 90s, I mean, it's just laughable now that we're aware of it.

It's like every single like Harrison Ford in every movies with someone 25 years younger. Like he's married to some. So yes, there's this crazy history of the 80s and 90s and early 2000s where it's like almost it's a given that the 55 year old male actor is going to have a wife who's 30, every one of the movies. Yeah. And so that to me is a very legitimate complaint. It's like, this is the workplace.

This is these people's chosen profession. The older actors are suffering because you will refuse to cast people of the same age. Yeah. There is a workplace injustice in that. Yeah. And I think that's worth being really rubbed up about. Yeah. But I think for people in their own life, again, I'd be embarrassed.

But that's me. That's my. That's how I. choose to live my life. I would feel silly showing up at a red carpet with a 19 year old. Yeah. Personally. Yeah.

And that's what people are feeling. Because my image of myself that's incompatible with. Yes. But if someone else, if everyone's honky dory in the situation. Yeah. If everyone's consenting, again, I don't think, I don't think, like, he needs to go to jail for this. It's just like, uh, like, it's just something that I think people feel that they can call out

and make fun of because it's a bit, it's a pattern and it feels. interesting to people and telling, I guess. Like, I think it's people are just like, oh, that's telling. Yeah. I would love to go on a date with him. See, that's kind of my point. There's a lot of the people I hear that are upset. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But trust me, if you and I were talking when you were 24, you'd be like, I'll go on a date with him. Oh, oh, yeah. No, I know. Right. But so it's interesting. When I hear a lot of people that are like really judgmental of him, I'm like, also bullshit, you'd go on a date with him too. And most young people would.

Again, though, they're not judging the daughter. I almost said, which, by the way, his daughter in this movie, I think, is like 25. So there's, yeah. Here's the other thing. And I don't know. And we don't need to try to find out. But, like, I haven't heard that any of these women feel used. No, he doesn't have, like, a gaggle of people that feel scorn by him.

Yeah. They all seem to be pretty. That's telling, too. Like, it doesn't, again, it doesn't seem like he just wants them necessarily as arm candy. I don't know what's going on with them, but that's why he has to come on and tell us. And I don't care about the movies. I wouldn't know what is going on. And also, does he want to date me?

I look quite young. So maybe this is the best of both worlds, because I am appropriate age. I mean, is. I'm an appropriate. age. And I have like a year left to give him children if he would like that. Right. And I look.

That's the other thing. It seems to me he doesn't want that. I don't think he wants that. So like, who cares? Oh, no. He doesn't have to want that. But it is just like, what do they talk about? Like this, she's on.

He doesn't know about these. They're not living in the same. I just think people are more wound up about it than they should be. Yeah. That's my kind of take. Because I'll talk to people. Like, I was somewhere this. and this, this older guy, he's like, do you see Leo's new girlfriend?

And I'm like, no. I mean, this guy. And I'm like, why could you possibly care? Of course, everyone's projecting. So, yeah, women have their own projections, but men have their own projections too. Because if they can't, they're like, I can't date someone like that. A, I can't have that. And so he shun it.

Yeah. Two, I have a daughter. I would be disgusted if my daughter was with this old man or that this old man was. or that this old man was with my daughter. Grant your daughter, her autonomy. I'm like, if one of my kids is hot for a dude that's older, that's none of my fucking business. They get to be, they get to be attractive, whatever they want.

Yeah, but you might be like. My only fear would be like, hon, if you guys go the distance at 30 years old, you're going to be walking him through hospice. Right. And then you're going to be at this age when you're reentering life. That would be the only thing I would want you to acknowledge is, is the unavoidable end to this.

That part would concern me. I think you also might be concerned if you're like she feels, you know, she's in love with him and you are like maybe I don't know if that person is like type of person who's going to. If we look at their pattern. Let's look at the pattern. Like you're all in. Yeah. You might be given your dismissal papers.

Yes. And that as a dad- As long as you go into it with full awareness. Right. But I think as a dad, that's hard to watch your kid, like, be in love with someone that you know. Some old guy gobble up there. Yeah. They're youth. Yes, maybe hard to watch.

But I just know better. I know that I would have never listened to my parents, tell me who I should or shouldn't be attracted to or date. So knowing that I would have never, I would never waste a minute of my time. Well, I'm not saying you should waste, but I don't think we can discount that you might have feelings. around it. And I think that's okay. Okay, we're going to wrap it up because I got to go. But also, oh, I think on this episode, I'd love to end it. I want to play a clip, the trailer of Beth's Dead. Oh, yes. Great. Great. Beth's dead is the podcast I talked about last week, I think, or a couple weeks ago with Elizabeth and Andy from... You've worked so, so hard on it, all of you. Worked so hard. It's a very special project,

and it's true crimey and it's Nancy Drew. And it's really fun. And it's 10, and it's 10 episodes, and not to make this complicated, but they're going to be available all on Patreon for people to binge if they want. It's a very bingey show. And that's $6 if you want to do that. Very reasonable. Very reasonable. And also, there'll be extra stuff. We'll do Q&As. We'll do other stuff. And that'll be really fun. But also, if you don't want to, it will all be out. It'll start coming out the 30th weekly. Okay, great. So if you want to wait for that, for free, you can do that too. But I recommend the bench. I'm just going to say. For 60 cents an episode, fucking go. I'm just going to say it.

But yeah, here's the trailer. Okay, great. I'm excited. I'm really excited because we have Elizabeth and Andy from my favorite podcast. Nobody's listening, right? I have you guys here because you took something away from me. And I never knew why you guys went off the air. Elizabeth, I wish I could give you.

you a hug so bad right now. My husband told me that you, Elizabeth, I'm a surprised, I'm not heard from you about this development structure, though I use a different... OneK is absolutely a worry for you. Are you all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right. I was also responding to all these people who would write in with questions. Oh my God, the subject of the email is, you may recognize my vagina. Oh, my God.

I went through my notes this morning, and I was getting teary-eyed, how upsetting it was. So I got this email. This is Beth's brother. Just after 4 a.m., my amazing sister, Beth, passed away. We were all completely devastated. I think by this point, I was like, this feels dangerous. I probably wished I hadn't gotten involved beyond just the podcast. but I had already committed myself.

Revisiting this has made me uneasy, and then I'm like, if I'm going to find out a bunch of bad shit, is it going to make me feel more unease? I can't really get it out of my head that I think we need to attempt to make contact. Okay, I want to burp. Okay, deep breath, deep breath. Okay.

First time I've ever received an amends in an interview. I know. That was very sweet. Yeah. It was really funny. For usual, I had an idea, had an idea of what it was going to be. And I was, honestly, I was kind of scared of him.

Like, I even, sure. I even was like, oh, maybe I won't walk in early, like, I'll wait. Yeah. Because he was here early and I got here early. And I was like, maybe I'll just wait until Dax goes in. But then I was like, no, it's fine. And then as soon as I walked in, he introduced himself to me and it was so, he was so warm and nice. And sweet.

He just like reeks sweetness. Yeah. And I said, I'm Monica. I'm the co-host. You said, I know. And I was like, oh, you did your research. I was like, well, I read the thing they sent me. I was like, oh, great.

So, yeah, I was, I was, it was not what I expected. And he was so, so lovely and sweet. And I really enjoyed it a lot. And we could have done 15 hours with them. Oh, yeah. As you'll see when you watch the, Doc, you got like 1% of the stories. Yeah. Okay, couple facts, not very many, but a couple.

Really quick. I was hiking with an offrey on. He had watched it. Uh-huh. And I said, you know, it's hard to give someone this crown. the history of show business, but I don't think anyone's ever gone harder. Yeah. I mean, what an accomplishment in its own right.

I mean, given the competition. Right. I'm shocked. I mean, I'm so, I'm so happy that he's made it through. Yeah, it's really harrowing. Okay. He said if you get hypnotized, you can't be used as a witness in a case. Yeah, that's what he thought.

Yeah, that's what he thought. And so we, I checked. It says, no, being hypnotized does not automatically disqualify someone from being a witness in court. But the fact of the hypnosis can affect the witness's credibility and the admissibility of the hypnotically refreshed testimony, which is often viewed as inherently unreliable. Okay, so it is a little tricky. Yeah, it could be, it could render his testimony useless. Exactly. Which is really interesting.

Do you happen to read the New York Times article this weekend about? This person who wrote a book who had memories that they uncovered during MDMA therapy. No. Very fascinating. Yeah. Well, that goes against what we've heard about repressed memories. That's, yeah. Yeah, I'll say, I need the article.

Yeah, I want to read it. Now, what is the correct way of typing called touch typing? Oh, it's not what I was thinking. Technique of typing without looking at the keyboard by relying on muscle memory to live. locate the keys. This method involves using all 10 fingers and resting them on the home row keys. Thank you. Home row keys. ASDF for the left hand and J.K.L. J.L. J.K.L. J. Kimmy Alive. Oh, my God. Wow. There was a statement said that Nick Cage does more movies than anyone alive. Obviously, that's an exaggeration. But I did. Then I got curious who is credited with the most.

And it's Eric Roberts. Oh, wow. Julia Roberts' brother. Eric Roberts is often cited as the American actor with the most film credits. I can do an impersonation of him, but yeah, I have to block myself from you. Okay. They took my fucking thumbs, Johnny. Wow. Yeah, that's a pretty good Eric Roberts. Okay, wow.

In the Popa Grunge Village. Oh, my. He has over 450 film credits and 191 TV credits. Wow. Yeah. Busy, busy, busy. Busy beat. Think of what his residual statement looks like.

Yeah. By the way, this is American actors. Congrats. Do we know how many Nick has been in? He's never done TV, to my knowledge. It would only be films. How many credits does Nick Cage at? 116 or more.

That's not helpful. Yeah, I got at least 119. That's a lot. It's a lot. And mostly, I think only starring roles. It's not like, like mine's more than it should be because I'm like guesting once in a while here and there. I come into a movie and say one line because it's friend.

You know, it's not real. Yeah. Well, it's real, but it's just not a, it's not a 116 lead roles. Yeah, that's pretty wild. And that's it. Okay. Love you. Love you.

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