Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Dr. Becky Kennedy (psychologist on parenting)

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

Dr. Becky Kennedy (Good Inside) is a clinical psychologist and author. Becky joins the Armchair Expert to discuss why she wants to help people understand themselves through their kids, why some traditional parenting techniques aren’t effective, and how to set boundaries with your children. Dr. Becky and Dax talk about how much a person’s past shapes who they are now, why she was compelled to share her ideas on social media, and how expectations of parents can sometimes be unfair. Becky explains how repairing a relationship can be difficult, why people fall into the same patterns consistently, and how behavior can be separated from one’s identity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Mrs. Golightly. Hi, Holly. Hi. Dr. Becky Kennedy's here today. She's a big deal. She's a very big deal.

I bet there'll be a lot of people that listen that already follow her on Instagram. She's got a very large following. Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist and founder of Good Inside, the expert-guided, community-powered platform equipping parents with a new way of seeing and solving challenges at home. The book that she is here to discuss is Good Inside, a guide to becoming the parent you want to be. I loved this.

Me too. And I start with a chip on my shoulder, which I talk about. I don't generally love parenting books. This is my own proclivity or something, hang up. But I loved this one. And the audio version of Good Inside is available on Spotify audiobooks. So check it out there. Reminder.

Before we start with Dr. Beggy, just want to say that we have a new show we've been working on for a while now. Coming out tomorrow, we're very, very proud of, with a friend of ours, Chad Sanders, who we had on the podcast a few years ago. You might remember he had a book called Black Magic. Yeah, we say it is a Friday Night Lights meets cereal. Yes, Friday Night Lights meets cereal. Yes, which is, it's very fun.

It's eight episodes, and we're releasing one every Friday on our feed. Yes. So tomorrow we have. No Armchair Anonymous. That's right. And instead you'll have two episodes of this show and then starting the following Friday, there'll be both Armchair Anonymous and Yearbook. Yes. So we encourage everyone to check out Yearbook. It's really, really good.

Yeah. Please enjoy Dr. Becky Kennedy. Trip Planner by Expedia. You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and your friends find a place on a beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia. Made to travel. Dr. Becky Kennedy, welcome to the program. Have you ever heard the program?

I have. You have, so you know what you're in store for. I don't know what I'm in store for, but both are true. That's a theme of your book. Yes. The ability to hold multiple truths at once generally tends to solve a lot of our problems. Yeah. I found that to be my favorite part, which we'll get to. But let's start with, you are from Westchester County, New York.

Yep. Dad was a commodities person. Yes. What was that childhood like? What's the vibe in Westchester? My childhood, I felt very supported. I felt a lot of achievement pressure as well. Because it's an affluent county, right? For sure. And me and my friends were all kids of parents who in no way grew up in the town they moved to. So it was very aspirational. They

had kind of made it in some way. They moved to this nice town. And yeah, there was a lot of achievement pressure in sports and academics. What college are you going to? It was kind of an intense academic environment in that way. And were you also witnessing people who had bought into a dream and then achieved it? Weren't dealing with some kind of kind of anticlimactic realization that nothing's been really healed by this accomplishment? I don't know if I was astute enough to notice that in my friend's parents, but what I think me and my friends all reflect on now as we look back on growing up there, it's interesting. None of us live in Westchester. No shade. We love Westchester. Yeah. Westchester's some of our best listeners. But it did feel like, you know, our parents had kind of made it in some

way. They aspired to live in this nicer town. They did that. And then there are just expectations on kids around that. It would be wrong as I'm finding out, but there's some part of me that would predict I went and got the dream and entirely grateful for it, but it certainly wasn't the fantasy I had. So I actually don't have much desire to pass that on to my kids as far as like, go make a bunch of money and go live here, I don't really care what grades they get. I just want them to like fall in love with something. That's it. And I don't care if it garners any money or anything because I already went down that

road. It wasn't as fulfilling as I expected. Yeah. So I can imagine that also being an outcome of people who have achieved that just going like, oh, wow, I did all this. And that's also because you're saying like you're relating to your kids, right? Yeah, my kids. Yeah.

Because you can afford to give them money. Well, I think the parents in Westchester can also probably help their children. Maybe. Can they? Yeah. I mean, in theory, if you're living in a place like most of the towns in Westchester, financial concerns aren't the highest on your list. Although also there can be, you know, a cycle there. You live a more expensive lifestyle.

You feel like you need to actually make more to maintain that. There can be a lot of anxiety around there as well. For sure. I've watched a few documentaries in a row that kind of highlighted this. Did you watch, by chance, the Jerry Falwell documentary? No. Incredible. He inherited the Jerry Falwell church and then the university.

And then he and his wife are on vacation in Miami. And she takes on a lover while they're there. Literally a pool boy at a hotel. And they have this long affair and he's kind of incorporated into the family and that unravels. And she has a couple other things going and he's weirdly supportive of it. He's like trying to get the young guy, like, you know, she's really struggling. Maybe you could say hi. It's very interesting, truly not even judgmental of it. But what I was judgmental of is his addiction's also going through the roof. He's becoming more and more of a drunk. And to me, what that looked like is, okay, you got all the shit, but there's still no elation. Where are we going to find the elation?

It's like, well, maybe if we open up this marriage, there might be some elation there. Maybe if we party, maybe if we go to Miami where this kind of like endless hedonic treadmill pursuit of feeling elation, which just isn't maybe a feeling humans have all that often. No, not too often. They're like sparks, those moments. Somehow we believe in the fairy tale that you could like live in a state of elation, maybe from movies and TV. Probably a lot from there. That's not how humans live life. Yeah. So you went to Duke for undergrad and you got a BA in what, psychology? BA in psychology and human development. And what drew you to that topic? I have a stereotype of people at my college that were drawn to psychology. I'll see if I fit it. Okay. Maybe it's basic. I've just never found anything more interesting

than people, getting to know people and understanding the systems they operate in. So I went to Duke and I realized, oh, this is what I could study. Like I can study why we do the things we do. And I just remember thinking, what else would anybody want to study than that? Did you have though? I think my selfish weird interest in it is I would love to be able to predict what people are going to do. I think that's really why I wanted to know why people do what they do is just so I'd be better at predicting it. I've never considered that actually. I don't think that's what it is for me. I guess when I think about prediction, my visual is like I'd get information

and I'd be able to look out. My visual in psychology is almost like I'd be able to go further down with someone. I find understanding people to be incredibly compelling and it never ends. There's always more layers and that's what's in it for me. There's something interesting within there, though, even.

I guess this would be like a broader question of self-examination. To your point, you can just keep going down and down and down and down and down. And at some point you got to go like, okay, that's enough. That's enough self-examination. Like I got to be a little less interested in myself and my story and where I come from and why I do everything. Do you think there's any point where it becomes like pathological, the exploration? Yeah, well, I think there's a link and I'm an extremely practical person. We like understanding ourselves or I like helping people better understand themselves or their kids because I think that links

to be able to help them build skills and help them develop and help them grow and really help them act in a way that's more in alignment with their values. I think that's what I'm really compelled by, right? And it goes to so much of the core of what I write about or talk about in videos that I really do believe we have this goodness inside. Like people are inherently good and yet we all do a ton of bad things. And so there's just this massive gap.

I think that's what it is for psychology. I'm just very drawn to that gap between good identity and bad behavior. And so to me, the more you understand that gap, you can actually help people align their behavior and identity. Now, when you were an undergrad, who was the person that their theories most appealed to you? I think I've always been very drawn to attachment theory, which is very different from attachment parenting, I always like to say, but Bowlby and Ainsworth. Will you distinguish those two things? Attachment parenting, I don't even know if I can speak to in such a big way, but people often ask me, oh, attachment theory, like attachment parenting. And I think at least the stereotype of attachment parenting is you're always attached to your kids. So their distress is almost a problem and you have to be there with them all the time. And so just a lot

of togetherness all the time. It's like proximity. Yeah, exactly. Where attachment theory really has its basis in evolution with the idea that more than anything else, what a kid needs to survive is maintaining attachment and a close relationship to their parents. Because obviously we need food and shelter and water, but the way you get that in humans is through attachment because kids are just helpless for so many more years than almost any other animal species.

Kids are kind of always paying attention to the status of their relationship with their parents. And I think the questions kids are always asking, even though they never say it, is just what parts of me bring my parents closer and give me safety? And what parts of me lead to distance and rejection? And then we really develop along those lines

because you can imagine that's actually very protective for a kid to say, oh, those parts of me gain distance, whether it's through yelling, through punishment, through being sent to my room. Okay, well, that's actually dangerous. I will evolve away from those parts and what parts of me get love and get talked about kindly and get, oh, come here and I'll sit with you. Oh, I better be more of those parts of me and less of the other parts of me. Right. Replicate all that stuff. Okay, great. In some ways, there is a notion in the book because of that dynamic, because you have to be very mindful whether you're ignoring or punishing or all these kind of behavioral modification techniques parents use.

But then another part of me just screams, yes, and that is the apparatus that allows us to all function as a social primate. Like you're supposed to recognize when your behavior is antisocial or not positive, and you're supposed to be rejected for that behavior. That's how it's always worked. That's how social primates interact. So can those two things live simultaneously, what you're suggesting in that? I think they really can. So the central thing I think about with kids is something very simple. It's just they're born with all of the feelings and none of the skills. So that's another gap. And bad behavior for all of us is really just a sign that our feelings have overpowered our skills. We feel before we think.

Our feelings are the most central thing for us. So let's take bad behavior that would get you rejected as a kid. I don't know. What is it? Screaming, I hate you? Throwing scissors at your sibling. Throwing scissors at your sibling, hypothetically.

You know? Okay, great. Certainly. And this is, I think, so important to clarify. If my kid is doing that, I'm not like, this is beautiful. Like, this is so... Come closer. Come to me, child. I'm going to throw you a party. Of course not. I love this part of you just as much as the part that gives your sister some of your pizza.

Of course not, right? That would just be bizarre. But what's really happening is that your daughter, I don't know, is jealous or is angry or is very frustrated because her sister is using her favorite pair of scissors. Whatever there is, there is a good feeling and an understandable feeling underneath the bad behavior. So we do not want our kids to think it's okay to throw scissors. But what happens when we intensely punish our kids, go to your room, no TV for a week or whatever we yell because we just, I don't know. We're out of ideas. Yeah, exactly. We're out of ideas. Repeating stuff we saw on TV. Kids draw bigger attachment lessons from everyday moments because they have to generalize and they really are learning what is allowed, what is not allowed.

So when I send my kid to their room and punish them harshly for throwing a scissor, they don't learn. It's not okay to throw scissors. They don't go to their room and say, you know what? It's okay to be angry. It's not okay to throw scissors. I'm going to go Google what else I could do when I'm angry. So I have a more pro-social behavior the next time. Like, I don't think any of us think that's what's happening in their room. What a kid is actually learning is when I feel angry, people won't be around me. So all that does is add shame to anger.

Now we got a real cocktail here. Yeah. Shame makes every feeling more combustible. We've actually now set our kid up to be more prone to dysregulated behavior because not only have we not taught them a skill or set a boundary, we've actually just added fear from that abandonment and shame. All of this to me comes from a very practical, I'm such a pragmatist more than anything else. I'm like, that just doesn't help. Like, forget it doesn't feel good for your kid.

I actually care about that too. It's not productive. But it feels counterintuitive because it also feels like, let's move us into adults. If someone is angry and then throws something at you, you should leave. You should not accept that sort of behavior. And so if it's never, you know what I mean? I 100% know what you mean. And there's a number of ways to think about this. So we teach our kids how to swim and we teach them how to

swim in a training pool because one day they might swim in an ocean and it's harder to swim in an ocean. But what we don't do to kids is when they're flailing and not able to swim, we don't say to them, this is unacceptable. And if you do this in adult life, you're going to die. Right. And go to your room and come back when you know how to swim because you have to know how to swim. And if we're teaching our kid how to swim and they're not getting it,

nobody's watching us saying, your daughter's really going to think that you think it's okay she's not swimming. You're really reinforcing that behavior by allowing her to not swim. We'd be like, that is crazy talk. I'm not listening to you. We coach our kids to learn the skills they need now so they can swim in increasingly dangerous situations.

It's like we all maybe fall for some fallacy that a lot of this stuff is more innate than it is. That's right. It's a skill. Like swimming is bizarre as regulating yourself when you're feeling jealous. It's as complicated as a skill probably to learn, maybe more so.

I think emotion regulation is nothing we ever master. Some of us get very good at swimming. None of us ever get perfect at regulating our emotions. It's the hardest thing in the world. So just to go back to the scissor situation, because to me, what will happen is people understand me, say, I don't even know. What do I say if I don't send my kid to a room?

Sending your kid to a room, first of all, isn't a boundary. It's an act of desperation. It's not actually taking charge in a situation. So to me, if there's a formula, just because it's nice to remember things simply, it's first always set a boundary when your kid is engaging in a dangerous behavior. Because our number one job more than anything else, and I say this to my kids all the time, my number one job is to keep you safe. And it is. And that

actually feels so good to someone. You know this, like if you're an adult acting in an out of control way, it is an act of love when someone kind of says, like, I'm not going to let you do this because you're imploding. Yeah, I'm taking these car keys from you. Exactly. You're hammered. That's off the table. Because I love you. And I'm happy to get into why you're so upset and hammered and want to drive a car. But maybe later. That's actually a great example where it's not helpful to say,

if you drive drunk, I'm not going to talk to you for a week. So in that situation, what I would do, let's say the throwing happens. Hopefully, I'd be close enough to almost notice, oh, my daughter is like about to do that. And if I could stop it, I'd say, I won't let you. And you're clear about this in the book. You're like, it's fine to grab your kid's wrists. That's in the middle of hitting a kid. It's fine to pick up your child and hold their body and take them to another room and talk to them.

It's fine to intervene physically, not to slap your kids, punish your kids, corporal with your kids. But to stop the dangerous behavior you should be doing. Yes. It's as connecting to a kid as saying, quote, you're allowed to be mad, which sure, that's helpful to say, but a kid throwing scissors doesn't need to hear first. You're allowed to be mad. They need to hear, I'm not going to let you do that. Because in that moment, a kid cannot be a boundary for their own urge. They haven't yet learned how to do that. We need to be the boundary for a kid. They haven't yet learned how to do that. We need to be the boundary for a kid. They have not yet learned to be for themselves. So they actually in their

body encode their feeling and their urge next to our boundary. That's actually how they start to learn to set that boundary for themselves. Now's an ideal time to talk about how we would define a boundary. We hear people talking all the time about boundaries and they largely, from at least my understanding of boundaries, they don't have it right. They think it's rules they can give to another person. That's right. Yeah.

And then we just get really resentful because we're like, they're not respecting my boundary. And I think this is the same definition, whether we're talking about parenting or any adult relationship. And yeah, the way I think about it is a boundary is something you tell someone else you will do, and it requires the other person to do nothing. And when then you start to review things, and this happens with my kids too, like I'm not perfect at any of this,

where I'm like, my son's not respecting my boundary. And I'll say to myself, okay, is it something I'm telling him to do and it would require him to do nothing? And I'll be like, oh yeah. It kind of requires him to do something. Right. Your boundary can't be you got to clean your room. That's a request. I think classic, right? It's stop jumping on the couch. Hey, I said stop jumping on the couch.

And then we go, stop jumping on the couch. Okay, that's a request. Once my child doesn't listen to my request, my kid is showing me I am not able to listen to your request. Okay, that's annoying. And it's the truth in that moment. And so if I want my kid to get off the couch, what I have to do is set a true boundary,

which say, hey, listen, I'm going to walk over to the couch. Seems hard for you to listen right now. And if by the time I get over there, you're not off, I will put my hands around your hips and I will take you down and I will show you an area of our home where you can jump. It's not mean.

I always say it's embodying our appropriate authority in the moment. And now I won't say my kid doesn't listen to me. I have a kid who would press every elevator button. We live in New York City. Every elevator button, if you could. Every one. My other kids actually weren't like this. He just is less people pleasing.

He loves buttons and he doesn't feel like he needs. They light up. They're cool. Exactly. It's weirder to not love hitting buttons, to be honest. Maybe my other two kids have the problem. But if I say to him, when we get in, we don't hit buttons. He's like, all right.

I mean, you don't. I hit buttons all the time. But what's more effective is just getting in between him and the elevator buttons. And if he lunges for it, I'm just going to look at him and say, yeah, I'm not going to let you touch all the buttons, sweetie. Done. That's a boundary. Right. Okay.

We're going back to Duke. You leave Duke, you go to Columbia. Yes. You then get your PhD in clinical psychology. At that point, does something shift or is there a new person that you're looking at thinking, oh, they're onto something I want to explore further. I guess I'm wondering how you refine your own take on this because ultimately that's what one has to have is a take on this. So I'm just curious how we chisel away at it and find it. Going to grad school in New York City, New York City is in the psychology world, one of the places that still has this kind of seat in psychoanalytic thinking. That does not mean Freud, but very different from the rest of the country, which has taken a very cognitive behavioral approach to psychology.

Oh, I didn't realize there was a big regional difference. Yes. New York City has, don't get me wrong, plenty of cognitive behavioral therapists, too. But it also still has a lot of psychodynamic, psychoanalytic, relational analytic thinking, where in other parts of the country, you really won't find anyone besides a more cognitive behavioral therapist. And this is, I think, the stereotype of New York, and maybe because Woody Allen movies, I don't know. But we all have this association that everyone in New York is lying on a couch at some point during the week. That's not how I was trained. That's not the psychoanalytic thinking that even, I think, predominates New York. But I think it's still fair to say that psychodynamic thinking is very different from cognitive behavioral thinking. I was actually really exposed to both in grad school.

Both were a big part of my training. But most grad schools would be pure cognitive behavioral therapy and nothing else. And do they have statistics to back up that position? I think the data and the evidence, it's complicated to actually digest. What are you actually measuring? Does that actually show you? It's all self-reported. And, you know, I had this supervisor who used to always say, if you're talking about kids changing their behavior, I could show you that putting a kid out and making them sleep on the street

five nights in a row would change their behavior. Like, the evidence would show that. Is that evidence? That is worth heeding. That's not to say cognitive behavioral therapy would recommend that. They wouldn't. But it's hard to get great data on what you're actually trying to achieve in therapy is long-term change. How you think about yourself, how you're able to regulate your emotions.

It's tricky to get data long-term on that. And so I think where I went to grad school, there was definitely a respect for cognitive behavioral thought and the way that more shorter-term, pragmatic-in-the-moment focus could help adults. more shorter term, pragmatic in the moment focus could help adults. Would it be fair to say if you go into CBT, you probably have an intention of breaking some kind of habit or adjusting your own behavior in a way that you've sought help for, as opposed to I have a general malaise, I want to explore it. Is it generally more target oriented? I think more than different motivations for seeking each, they actually would just approach therapy in very different ways, regardless of how someone comes. So cognitive behavioral therapy is a sense that you can kind of change how you think. And then when you change how you think, you change how you feel,

you change how you behave. And a more psychodynamic point of view, they'd say that's a lot of staying up in your head and you can't logic your way out of things in real life. CBT would say like, okay, you hear the thought, you're like a third person in the mix, you observe the thought, and then you think, oh, what action generally follows this thought? And you're somehow through observing it dispassionately. Challenge the thought.

Oh, what other thought could I have? Right, if you're catastrophizing, you might try to bring data into it. Exactly. You don't believe in that? I feel like I draw from so many different approaches. I am an absurdly practical person, And the parts of CBT I love is giving people very in the moment skills and strategies. Yes, action. Yeah, like you're going to do this thing. I love that about

it. And I think that's so important. I don't think thinking and reflecting on their own changes our behavior. Yeah, I'm from the 12-step world. So it's like you can act your way into thinking different. You can't think your way into acting different. So for me, CBT, although I've never done it, it sounds appealing or at least I can latch on to, yes, I think you can act your way into thinking differently. Parts of what I would consider more influential for me, relational psychodynamic thinking. Where, for example, when I was in private practice working with a lot of different adults, to me, the best data I got on someone would be the interaction in the room with them. I would say something, hey, you looked down when I said that something happened. Let's stay with that. What is it like for you to hear me say that? Also much more experiential and probably more than in CBT. I do think our past really matters, not to just wax poetic about it, but because actually,

I think our problems in adulthood come when our past actually just comes alive in our present. We're not even living in 2023 anymore. We're actually acting out something old. And so learning to separate that and seeing how it actually comes alive in the room is where I found I made the most traction with people. We just had Gabor Mate on. He was saying that similar thing that they rob you from the present,

which I thought was so powerful. And I relate to so much. Yes. It's a fine line though, because my therapist doesn't do that at all. She's like, I'd rather not spend all this time talking about you as a kid or what happened here. I mean, we can talk about how it influences now, but she doesn't want to waste time wallowing in that. And so I do think it's a fine line of knowing how those things affect your present, but not, for lack of a better word,

living in this victim land. I completely hear you. And I think, yes, like everything else, it's in the nuance here. My approach is always based in self-empowerment. At the end of the day, the person we have to make changes in our life is ourself. So looking at our past, understanding the things that still live with us today is all in the service of helping you today start to live in a way that just feels better to you. Not just to blame something on someone else. It's to understand your own story. And when we understand our own story differently, we actually can make a lot of changes.

Is there also room in your mind for my deeper hunch than all this is none of them works for everybody. A hundred percent. You probably will save someone's life and put them in a place that they're productive and self-actualized. And then conversely, you name the psychiatric discipline that could also result in that. I think the only thing I buck up against is not any one of these is the claim that one would fit all. Yes to that. I mean, it's all about fit and figuring out. And sometimes you don't even know what your therapist does, but you're like, this is just helpful to me. That's what matters. And that's okay to trust. And when people say to me, this thing that you talk about, that's been so helpful, or this thing that you talk about,

that doesn't land with my kid at all. And both are right. It's an option. If something works and resonates, yes. And if something doesn't feel right, it's not because you're doing it wrong. It's because it's actually not the right fit for you and your kid. Right. Okay. So you come out, you have a private practice for quite a while and then COVID hits. Yes. And you prior to COVID did not have an Instagram account. No. Yeah, just prior you get an Instagram account.

This could be a side interview. We could do two different interviews. We could do Good Inside as the book, and then we could just do one of your life, which is very unique and preposterous and fun, which is you don't have an Instagram account. And then some months later, you have hundreds of thousands of followers. Yes. That's a very bizarre occurrence on planet earth. You would agree. Instagram or TikTok both? Instagram. TikTok, I'm still trying to make waves. No, stay with us. We're done with our platforms. We'll die with Instagram in our hands. Yep, that's our last. We can't have a new one. So just walk me through how you go from having the private practice to being kind of in public with your thoughts.

Yeah. I'd be remiss to leave out. After grad school is when I found internal family systems, which has had the biggest influence on my thinking. And to me brought together everything I kind of felt but started to put words to. Who's the pioneer of that? That's Dick Schwartz. Great name. Yes.

Who's the pioneer of that? That's Dick Schwartz. Great name. Yes. And I really feel like he understands the structure of the human mind and body in a way that just resonates so deeply for me. It was so helpful in my work with adults in very deep kind of psychotherapy. And that has really influenced a big part of my thinking and what I believe parents can really help kids with. What are some of the tenets of that? Our mind kind of has a multiplicity to us.

So there's many parts of us. So anyone in therapy who's ever kind of talked with, quote, parts language, that's a lot of internal family systems. I have a part of me that wants to do this. I have a part of me that wants to do this. This part of me gets activated in these situations. So it's really a way of getting to know all the parts of us. And this is one of his books, is that there's no bad parts.

There's no bad feelings and that our parts developed in a system like an internal family inside of us based on figuring out how to adapt during our earliest years. And yet, while we all learn to adapt in our earliest years in our original family system, often those adaptations stop serving us in adulthood. Right. But they've gotten frozen in time. And actually, so many adult symptoms actually all were childhood adaptations. Even though those things work against us now,

it's very hard to unwind the things that were put in place to protect us. And so it's an incredibly respectful approach to humanity. Before you got here, we were just doing a fact check and we were talking about the dynamic of going home. And one of the unmistakable feelings I always have is like, there's some point on day three where I go, oh shit, yeah, I've got to click into my role in this whole system, which is I've got to alleviate all the stress and tension with some jokes. And then you just go like, oh yeah, I don't want to fucking play this role anymore. Like sometimes you can really feel what that is.

Yes. And what's happening inside of us, that part, they sense this environment. They know the voices and that part goes, I'm going to cry. Like I know what to do. Yeah. I can help you out. I can keep you safe. And this is actually right from IFS.

It's so helpful to like go to the bathroom and say, really, it's not 1989. I love you, but I don't need you. Yeah. It's 2023. And you might not know this. I am now in my forties. I actually have a whole life separate from here because those parts that get frozen, they're so protective for us. And I love this image too. And it's right from Dick Schwartz that you think about someone protecting you. They're always gazing out because they're hypervigilant to surroundings and they haven't yet turned around to see that you've actually aged and like, you're okay now. No, this is a mantra I have to do often. I have to go through a checklist. I'm like, you're almost 50. You're financially very safe. No man that you generally run into can beat you

up or hurt you. I have to go like, oh my God, you're actually safe, but I have to convince myself of it. Yes. And I think an added layer is saying to that part of you, I say this to myself, thank you for your years of service. Right. I appreciate that. And here's all the facts now. And you were very important at a very critical time in my life. Yeah. This is kind of like integrating your shadow a little bit, right? Or talking to your shadow.

Yeah. Including them in the conversation. Okay, so basically at this point, right before COVID, I was in private practice. I was kind of combining internal family systems, attachment stuff, a lot of mindfulness. And yet everyone thought I was a cognitive behavioral therapist. It's so funny because I'm just so active. I'm like, and I want you to do this this week. I really have a hard time having a thought that doesn't pair with a very practical strategy. So that again is just how it all comes together.

And I was working with adults. And at the same time, I started to see a ton of adults come to me not for therapy, but for parenting work. Around this time, I also got a lot of extra training because that's always what I did. I was like, okay, who else can I learn from? So I went to a kind of parenting center and I actually learned a completely behavioral approach. Did you go to a university? Yeah, I went to Yale. Oh, okay. Yeah, so definitely a solid place.

My PhD is from Columbia, but Yale had this extra training. And at first, I was obsessed because I think it just lights up our left brain that loves logic and linearity. And I was like, this is amazing. When kids do bad behavior, you kind of in some way extinguish the bad and you reward and get more of the good. So in my private practice, it was this very interesting experience where I'd see back-to-back clients and I'd do this deep kind of psychotherapeutic work and based in internal family systems and all this experiential work. And then I'd see parents and they'd tell me about their kids. And I'd almost switch into this like very behavioral mode. And over the course of a number of weeks, I just started to feel uncomfortable in my parenting sessions. And there was just something in my body. It didn't feel right. How could what I know

not only works with adults, I'm watching adults change their lives in every meaningful way. How could the theory behind what helps them be a 180 degrees from what I'm telling parents? It can't be. But I kind of kept going. And then truly one day I was working with parents and they were telling me, you know, their kid's hitting a lot. And I was teaching them how to give a timeout. And this feeling, it's too much like it couldn't stay quiet and I just looked at this couple really I said I'm sorry this is so awkward I don't believe anything I'm questioning my beliefs that's what I said I did and I was like I really do trust that there's a different thing I would tell you but I don't know what that is today I don't think this is it I remember I canceled my rest of my clients that

day I was like I feel like I'm having this crisis. You know, I called my husband. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. Your first thought isn't I'm on to something great. Your first thought is like, I don't know shit. Or I'm a fraud. I'm a fraud. I'm a fraud.

I had this training. But in this world of evidence and science, which is so important, I'm the biggest believer in science. I was struck by being like, I also have data in my body. I can't say which is better. It doesn't matter. But like there's something to that. Also, you've done a lot of research reading. Forget the fact like weirdest people on earth, right?

The fact that they're only doing these studies on super educated elite school students. Like let's just take the data set as fucked up. But let's also talk about the construction of the experiments and that they already have a foregone conclusion that they forgot away. I love it. I'm an addict for social sciences, but it all does need to be taken with a big old grain of salt. That's exactly right. It's a yes and like a hundred percent. And so

then what I did is I really had this explosion of ideas that happened after that. It was almost like I'd opened some door to possibility. How many grams of shrimps were you on? Zero. Zero. I know. I mean, imagine what I could have done had that been the case. You'd be levitating as we interviewed you. Oh my goodness. And I just wrote and I couldn't really stop. Around this same time, I had been talking to my friend who's an entrepreneur about how I helped my then three-year-old daughter through her difficult sleep stage, which was really hard. And everyone was telling me, lock her in her room and she'll cry it out. And it's okay if she vomits. And I was like, I don't think that's the thing again. Like, I don't know. And then I was like, what do I know about attachment? What do I know

about skill building? What do I know about emotion regulation? I kind of MacGyvered this sleep thing for her that completely changed her relationship with sleep while building the skills she needed for separation, all good things. And so as I was writing, I was kind of like working on maybe putting out this product. Oh, you wanted the sleep button. Exactly. If the little girl was scared, she'd hit a little button and then some pre-recorded gentle message from mom or reassuring message or dad, whoever, she'd be able to play on demand. Whenever she needed it. Oh, that's great. So like, how can you have nice, calm parent in the room when you don't? So you actually can internalize their presence,

which is how kids actually separate with confidence at night or during the day. Sleep is just separation at night, right? But then I had all this writing because I had done all this. I thought maybe I'd put out this product. And then I was like, you know, I don't want to put out the product, but I had done all this writing. What am I going to do with it?

My husband and my sister both were just like, got to put it on Instagram. And I was like, I'm not even on Instagram. I tell all my clients to get off Instagram. I think it's ruining their mental health, you know? My sister, who's five years younger, was like, I'm gonna set you up. I'll show you how to do it.

I'll show you how to do a story, you know? And I was like, all right. I mean, I just done this writing. What else is I doing with it? And then, yeah, it was February 28th, 2020. I put out a post two weeks before New York City shut down. At least that was like March 14th. And then on March 14th, I look back at it.

It's so interesting. I think I had 200 followers. I mean, it clearly wasn't substantial. And that day, you know, I created this huge carousel about how our kids will remember more about how their family homes felt during coronavirus than anything about coronavirus itself. Our kids are really looking at us and learning how to deal with uncertainty. Here's how to wire them for resilience and not panic. And the nine slides that I look back on,

I mean, the amount of text, it was like five years of therapy in like a carousel, you know? Right. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Sasha hated sand, the way it stuck to things for weeks. So when Maddie shared a surf trip on Expedia Trip Planner, he hesitated. Then he added a hotel with a cliffside pool to the plan. And they both spent the week in the water.

You were made to follow your whims. We were made to help find a place on the beach with a pool and a waterfall and a soaking tub and, of course, a great shower. Expedia. Made to travel. What I remember so interestingly, my husband at that time would really proofread it for me.

I'm 0% perfectionist, so I'd always put things up with typos and things. Can I ask what line of work he's in? So is he like an objective outsider? Is he also in that field? He's in finance, although he was also a psychology major. Oh, okay. Wonderful. Yes.

You guys have a hot sex life, I bet. A couple of psych majors. I was like, you know what? I think this is enough. I got to get it out there. But it went viral. I think the next week or two, I was like, you know what? I think this is enough. I gotta get it out there. But it went viral. I think the next week or two, I had like 10,000 followers. At that point, you got a swipe up.

I was like, I have a swipe up. This is crazy. And then I would have this period. Like I'd be playing with my kids. And I was like, stop. I have to like make this video. As things materialized, you started sharing it. Yes.

I was like compelled. It was painful to be in bed some mornings. And I've always woken up early. I was like compelled. It was painful to be in bed some mornings and I've always woken up early. I was like, I have to get this thought down. You know, it's taught me how important it is to know that when you start something, it's not because you know everything because like I've learned so much. I've had so many new ideas since I started putting things out there that I would have never had if I thought I had to know all that. Well, and hopefully you're challenging previous ones and changing all the time. And there's probably some you wouldn't even stand by today

that you might. It's very Adam Grant of you. Yeah, it's very. I'm a mutual friend of Adam Grant. Yeah, yeah. Think again. Yes, think again. Exactly. Then it did. It just grew in this very organic way. And it was so heartening for me. It was like, oh, there's a lot of people that are not satisfied with this mentality we've been given about parenting. And yet we haven't really been given an alternative, not that's concrete and practical, but I think people were looking for it. Yeah. I'm going to be critical of myself now. So we did sleep training. It worked. It wasn't a big battle. Like I hear a lot of people's horror stories. So it's not like at any point I felt

like there was any kind of child abuse going on. But definitely I was watching something. I was like, how could you, an anthro major, who knows exactly how babies were supposed to be coming into the world, how could you have thought that this was okay, that they wouldn't be laying next to mom and dad? Like it's the most quintessential first thing that happens is you're in a very scary world. You want to be between these two people. And I was like, wow, I really fucked that one up. I don't know.

I wouldn't do that again. I couldn't believe even thinking how I think that I was like, yeah, yeah, that's what you got to do. They got to be self-sufficient and independent and strong. I think sleep training and babies, I tend not to be rigid about most things. I think it's really tricky. I know there's a lot of professionals out there who are like, it's horrible. Like, it traumatizes kids.

To me, it has to be seen in the context of so many other parts of your parenting. A lot of parents sleep train their babies not because they think they have to be self-sufficient, just because they're like, I'm a mess. I need a fucking break. Exactly. And like the version of a parent I can be, there's not some equation. Like if you can be 90% better of a parent with, you know, three days of sleep training, it's worth it. But I think it's really harsh, especially in the society we have in America where parents

are given no time, where moms are given no time off. And to say, yes, you should always be waking up and have your baby there. Your whole day should be attached. Exactly. 24-7. Exactly. Yeah. I should have said that out of the gates.

I have zero judgment of anyone who's doing anything. I just personally was like, well, that kind of slipped through my little filter. I think I apply to most things. And again, though, I think when parents do that and they say to themselves, is that the way I parent my baby all the time? That's very different impact on a kid. Then you're like, no, during the day, I'm very responsive. And even, and I do believe some parents, they tell me when they sleep train their babies,

you know, and let them cry it out for some amount of time. They say, hey, I'm going to leave and I know it might be hard and I'm going to be here in the morning and I know you can do this. There's many ways to go about it. And then you are present for your baby and you are so responsive. And to say that those three days has a horrible impact to me is a really awful message. Yeah. And I was telling myself, like, I'm in there twice a night to give a bottle.

I'm in and out of there, as you have to do at the beginning. You're on that crazy fucking schedule before they go all the way. Okay. So if I can own all of my baggage about parenting advice, a lot of it probably is just being male and married to a woman and listening to her and her friends talk and knowing how much of her waking hours are, well, let's back up. I noticed this from the pregnancy. The second a woman gets pregnant, other women are like, are you going to have a natural birth? Are you going to have it at home? The tests start.

Yes. And I just was like, I don't like this. Stop talking to her about what her fucking birth plan is. It's none of your business. So that to me felt very icky. I didn't like that there already felt like a way for her to be a terrible mom if she doesn't have it in the back of a hay wagon with not a doctor within a thousand miles. I was like, this is fucking nuts. This call to purity, which is totally fictitious and no one even knows what they're referencing. But then I

think it continues to the second the baby's born. So a little bit of it is triggering to me. Just any of the exploration, I got to own my own. It's just a little bit like, do we need more advice for women? Can you understand at all that being like my little bit of a knee jerk against any parenting stuff is I just think of some poor mother who's stressed out at home, learning some system that she can never put into action and then feeling like a failure on that front. And their friends have read this book. So I went into this with a little bit of that. I'm just trying to own the chip on my shoulder about parenting advice in general. I hear that. I have so many thoughts about that. But I do have to jump to the punchline, which is I loved your book. And I'm really,

really glad you wrote it. Just so you know that that's where I'm ending. Thank you. I mean, both can be true. That's okay. There's been some media coverage. People said, oh, Dr. Becky or other people like her kind of make parents anxious and then claim to have a solution to that. That's kind of part of the same thing. What I find really interesting, and I mean that I think there's so much misogyny in even that framework, because let's say, I don't hear anyone say sports psychologists, they make athletes so anxious and they make them think they're not doing a good job. And now how could they ever do the thing? I've never heard that. Money managers make people think that they're not

managing their money. No, people are like, how amazing that you have access to a service that helps you do. And yet it's interesting to me that people say this about parenting. I find it offensive to women. The idea that they're so kind of plastic. Sure, if someone ever consumes anything I say and says, oh, Becky's making me more anxious, I would tell them, please stop following me on Instagram. Don't buy my book. Don't check out our membership. No, no, no, no.

But the idea that women who have typically been charged with parenting, that's been their job, right? Still, even if you're 50-50, you're not. Right. Can't decipher what makes them anxious or what makes them feel empowered or that they don't deserve access to the same types of resources that would actually help them feel good at their job that men in more male dominated fields. Yeah. I think there's like a huge differentiation. I agree with you. The point I'm making is also what I think is misogyny. I hope

that didn't sound personal. It's just, let's start with the fact that I don't think it's fair women have this pressure to be perfect mothers. Dads don't have that pressure at all. So the baseline anxiety level between the genders seems dramatically different. I think it's societal and I think it's very unfair. I completely agree with that. who's really gotten deeper into Good Inside and my approach, would say this is actually the first parenting approach that respects a parent and their needs as much as it respects a kid and their needs. There's so many things I care about

when I'm putting out thoughts about parenting. Number one, and I haven't said this soon enough in our discussion, I am not Dr. Becky with my kids. That is not how I parent my kids. And I talk all the time about, yeah, I yelled at my kids. I did this thing. I wanted to say this amazing line. And oh, I totally didn't say that.

I said something very different. Absolving parents and especially women of the need to quote, be perfect, I think is inherent in my mission, especially the focus on boundaries, which at the end of the day are kind of to protect your kid, but are really also to protect yourself and your own needs.

Yeah, yeah. I think you're doing a splendid job at that. In fact, your approach feels very 12-step to me in that you often start with an example of your own, quote, failure, something you would choose to do differently. Yeah. I super appreciate it, but I don't know why I felt compelled to set that up.

Just because I was like, oh gosh, here's another book that my wife's going to read and she's going to feel compelled to try a whole new system because the pressure is just so endlessly enormous that she's doing this perfectly. And I'm kind of going on intuition, maybe what I know from being sober as a parent, and I feel great about it. I'm not thinking much about it. Yeah. But if she thinks something's not working, then it's good to have access to a lot of approaches to see what will... The problem is if things are working and then it's like, well, I guess I'll try this too. And then I'll also try this. There's so much. lot of approaches to see what will. The problem is if things are working and

then it's like, well, I guess I'll try this too. And then I'll also try this. There's so much. So I got to see what the best version is. That can be problematic. But if something's like, I don't feel good about this or this isn't working, finding out a solution is great and having access to that. What parents often say to me is this helps me feel so much less anxious. Not because I think I'm doing it best, but because Good Ins Inside has actually helped me tap into my own internal strength and intuition and self-trust. If that's not happening for someone by reading Good Inside, by doing one of our courses, I really mean this. I'd be the first to say, please stop doing that. This isn't the approach for you.

Stop. It's not for you. Stop. Yeah. which for you. Stop. It's not for you. Stop. Yeah. Well, really what I'm trying to own and I'm doing a very poor job doing it is literally if it didn't have parenting in it, I wouldn't have gone in with anything on my shoulder. But within five minutes of reading it, I'm like really, really loving it. And there's several things I want to talk about that I think are such beautiful messages. I think the first one I want to talk about, this is a quote from your book, understanding, quote, two things are true and convincing, quote, one thing is true are two diametrically opposed ways of approaching other people.

So a powerful first step in any interaction is to notice which mode you're in. When you're in a one thing is true mode, you're judgmental of and reactive to someone else's experience because it feels like an assault on your own truth. I think this is enormously powerful. Just to stop and go. Am I opened in the notion that two things are true or is this just one thing is true? And I'm guilty so often of one thing's true. Yeah. I know the great truth.

Exactly. And if you just saw how I saw it, we wouldn't have a problem, right? That's like the classic couples argument. It's like, if you were just more like me, we'd be good. And left, right. Liberals think of everyone as liberal, it'd be great. And conservatives think everyone's conservative, it'd be great. Exactly.

Look where that's gotten us. But yeah, to me, this is a power struggle mode. We always mistake being curious with approving or agreeing. They're totally different things. I'm so glad you say this. This is very common. We talk about it all the time. Anytime we talk about criminality or punishment, it's like you can be super compassionate and understanding and also still have consequences. They're not

mutually exclusive. I can make a real attempt to understand how someone ended up in this position. Doesn't mean I have to say they're free to roam around the planet. That's so impactful with child development because when our kids do something arguably bad, they hit their sibling or they lie to our face. If you want to be effective in that moment, you have to activate curiosity. Why did my kid lie to my face? Why did my kid hit? And people will say, oh, so it's okay, they did that.

And I'm like, wow, how do we collapse those two? I don't know, if I knocked a glass over and it broke, I would want to say, okay, well, where did I put that glass? And what could I do different? It doesn't mean that I think it's cool that my glass broke. That just already happened. So either I can be curious and learn or I can not. So even there, there's a two things are true.

I'm upset this broke and I can be curious. So it doesn't happen again. I don't like that my kid lied to my face and I have a good kid. So I wonder why they did that. We have to be in that two things are true mindset. That's where I should have started actually. And this is where the book starts, which is the very first premise you hold dear is that your kids are good inside, you're good inside, and that you both do bad things. Yes.

I think so many of our worst moments with our kids, how we talk to ourselves, really comes because we've collapsed someone's bad behavior into an unconscious assumption that they have a bad identity. And honestly, a lot of parenting practices we're given, they don't explicitly state they come from that assumption, but I think they do, right? When my kid hits, the only reason I'd send them to their room away is because they're bad. But when I say, wait, they're struggling. I have a good kid identity who's having a hard time behavior, not a bad kid doing bad things. Now we would have a totally separate bucket of interventions that would even make sense. Well, it certainly makes me curious, like, where did all this start? It's

all kind of very biblical in nature. It's like you have evil in you and you have good in you, right? There's these two forces that are at play on earth and you have to beat the evil out of your child or prevent, you know, there's something very archaic about the assumption to begin with. And I'm guilty of it. It's like something crazy happens and you're like, oh my God, is my kid a sociopath?

Like you literally go to, are they a sociopath? Yes. So fast. They're seven. That's right, right? We do that. We assume they're a bad kid. And I call that what you're saying,

like the fast forwarder. Because also when you say your kid's a sociopath, you see them hit their sister and you're like, they're going to be in jail or they're shy at the birthday party. They're never going to have friends and they're never going to get invited to this party when they're 25 years old. And you miss, wait, like I have a seven-year-old who's feeling hesitant at a gymnastics place they've never been to.

Like, okay. Again, almost like it's 2023. It's not 2045. And I do think those two frameworks, am I looking at my kid like they're a bad kid doing bad things? Or am I looking at my kid like they're a good kid having a hard time? Really, everything flows from that difference. Yes. The quintessential foundation for everything that then comes after it in the book. And it's funny because I can imagine as I'm learning these different things and agreeing with so many of them, I'm almost in my head going through a checklist of how I would work through all this.

And it's like I'd almost have to say kind of like my serenity prayer or some other shit I use to stay sober. I'd have to be like, all right, reminder, good kid, bad behavior. That's all that we're looking at right here. Like I got to start there. Yes, I do that with myself with my hands a lot. I find visuals very helpful to learn. So I will literally separate my hands very far. And I look at one hand for my own stuff too.

I'll say, okay, like I'm a good person or okay, my son's a good kid. And then I'll move my hand very far away and go, he did this bad thing. Okay, and then I'll almost watch like my hands come together. Like, no, no, no, no. They're very separate.

And when you really do say to yourself, pull yourself aside to the bathroom when you can, it obviously doesn't happen every time. We're all reactive. But okay, wait, I have a good kid. You soften toward your kid. And again, it doesn't make it okay. It actually is the foundation to be able to help them learn the skills they need to actually change that behavior the next time. Yeah. And I think now would be a good time too, to talk about upstairs brain, downstairs brain, because this is the immediate other thing you need to be cognizant of at all times of what's actually happening physiologically in their brain at this time.

Yes. They're completely flooded. They're in lizard brain. They're in fight or flight mode, which is also why when they're in that mode, they often do act like a caged animal. And importantly, you say they're actually born with the downstairs brain is intact. Your frontal lobe and your prefrontal cortex are not developing until late into your 20s. But the reptilian brain is fully functional right out the gates. So they have all the command of their amygdala and everything that would make them fearful and scared. Yes. And just everything beyond that is like a work in progress.

That's right. And given how helpless they are, they have to be especially attuned to danger and threat. And so they are. Learning skills to manage anger and frustration and wanting something and not having it, it's a lifelong practice. I don't know any adult who's really good at wanting and not having.

Nobody's great at it. And so your two-year-old is definitely not great at it. Right. Definitely not. Sometimes I'll make myself say in my head to find my way into some compassion is our younger one has just incredible surges of emotions. And of course, the eighth breakdown in a day, I feel bad for me. I'm like, oh my fucking God, I can't do another round of this.

But then I'll go like, oh, what does it feel like? I know it feels terrible. I've had those breakdowns. Like, she's had eight of those. She has to be so exhausted. It's so draining to have one of those full meltdowns. That's exactly right. That empathy, and to me, another two things are true,

is I really feel like it's important to have equal emphasis on warm empathy and firm boundaries, right? Again, if my kid's eighth meltdown involves trying to kick me, I'm not saying, yes, kick that out. I will be your punching bag. No way. First of all, I'm not going to let someone do that to me. That's not going to feel good. It's also really not helpful to them. They're like, is nobody the adult who's going to stop me from doing these out of control things? I talk about the pilot metaphor. To me, the essence of what I consider good inside is really sturdy leadership. This is why actually recently people have been like, are you a management consultant? And I was like, no. And they're like, your book is highly

recommended in my management consulting Slack group. And I was like, you know what? I am a management consultant. It's the same stuff. It's sturdy leadership. I just happen to focus on the home. And to me, sturdy leadership in any leadership position, definitely as a parent, is very similar to like thinking about pilots. If you're a passenger in a plane and it's very, very turbulent and everyone's like freaking out, okay, think about three pilots. So one pilot is almost like pure punishment. Like, hey, stop freaking out back there. Yeah, stop being a fucking baby. Exactly. You're being a baby. This is ridiculous. You're ruining my day, you know? And if you think

about being a passenger, first of all, you're like, well, it does feel unusually turbulent. So do not notice that. You're actually kind of disturbed. Well, like this is enough to make you that off kilter. That does not inspire confidence, right? So that's pilot one. Pilot two would be like,

I know it's turbulent and I'm just going to open the cockpit door. And if any of you want to come and take over the plane, let me know. Do you think you can do it better? Exactly. Your distress has become contagious. Now you're not scared of the turbulence.

Now you're like, I'm terrified that this person's my pilot, right? That's a lack of boundaries. There's no boundary between the cockpit and the passenger. And to me, the third pilot, which is what kids need, which is what we all want when we're having a hard time, is that sturdy pilot who can both be connected to their boundaries and to the reality of your experience, even if it's not the same as theirs. And I think what they'd say is, hey, I hear everyone screaming and I get it. It feels really turbulent. I believe you. This is scary for you.

And I've done this a lot of times and I know we're still going to land in Los Angeles. And so I'm going to get off the loudspeaker now so I can go back to flying this plane safely. I'll see you when we're on the ground. And everyone is like, yes, because you've had your reality validated, and you know that your pilot has a different experience and more confidence than you do, and you actually absorb that. That's contagious. Yeah.

Emotions are contagious. They are. More than we would like. That's contagious. Yeah. Emotions are contagious. They are. More than we would like. That's right. And I think so much of what kids need, and of course it's so hard because so many of us didn't get this and we have our own stuff going on. They need parents to validate their feelings. Meaning basically saying, what you're feeling is real for you. And they need to feel like we are separate from it, that it doesn't enter our body and take over because then they believe, oh my goodness, my feelings actually are as toxic and overpowering as

I worried they were. Oh no, that's really scary. Yes. This is the Paul Bloom example of seeing someone drowning and to be empathetic wouldn't be to join them in their state of hysteria. It would be to just recognize they need help in that moment. Yes. You want to be that person rescuing the drowning swimmer. So in the role

play scenario of eighth meltdown and then the kid is kicking you or hitting you or screaming at you or whatever, what practically would you do in that scenario? Great. So let's say you're in your kid's room. They're out of control. They're trying to kick you. The first thing I would say

is your kid more than anything else needs containment. So if your kid is not in their room, this is actually really important. It's important to take them into a smaller space. If you picture a kid having a massive meltdown like at a barbecue or in let's say you have an open floor plan, their experience is this feeling is exploding out of their body and think about all the space it's taking up. That's actually really scary for a kid because they really do feel toxic to others in that way, which is their deepest fear that they're going to push people away. So first step, I would say, is I'm picking you up and I'm carrying you to your room. Not placing in your room and closing the door.

But bringing an out-of-control kid to an actually smaller space allows the kid to feel like my experience only goes this far. It would be like if you were out-of-control, wasted at a party, and your spouse was like, I'm going to pick you up and bring you to a smaller room because I'm not going to let you do this to everyone, right? So that's the first step. Obviously, there's a physicality, but the spatial communication is something a kid learns. In lizard brain, they actually feel contained. Well, and I used to do this with their closet with Delta. We would go in her closet. It was

spacious enough for us to both sit on the ground. It's soft everywhere. There's things hanging. It's quieter in there. Yes. And there became a Pavlovian thing. Like after we had calmed down in there a few times, almost right when we get into the closet, things would change. That's so beautiful. That's always first step. And then what I always suggest next is really that phrase, I won't let you, or I'm not going to let you. And the tone matters. Like if I say to my kid, I won't let you, that is not holding. But you can say that in a very loving against sturdy pilot way. Just like I'd want my pilot to say, I'm not going to let you come into the cockpit. I love you, but you're not welcome in the cockpit. Yeah. Right. Like I won't let you kick me. There are times when kids need to be

turned around. And I wish we had a way to really teach parents this and kind of have like the spider hold, not, not to hurt your kid, to stop them from feeling harmful to others. I think also what I would tell a parent to do in that situation is the self-talk really matters. Like I actually have this containment guide, all these steps, and parents tell me when they have a closet room, they put it there. Because also when your kid's in that state, they don't care if you're reading something. They're in another world in a way. You're saying you put the checklist in the area. Under the rug. Exactly. They're like, wait, let me get my phone for a second. Because even when you're getting activated as a parent, you can still read. You're triggered in that I have lost control of this

thing I'm supposed to have control over. Like at your deepest core, it feels like a total loss of control. And in that moment, when our kids are out of control, whether it's this big meltdown or even a smaller one, just like I can't have ice cream, what's happening for us is we are kind of scanning our bodies. Like what have I learned about these emotions? What part of me, back to IFS, we develop parts of us to keep down dangerous parts of us. So if our own big emotions were met with distance and fear, we've developed a very self-critical part of ourselves that says to ourselves in those moments, what's wrong with you? Oh, you're making a big deal out of nothing.

And then when we see it in our kid, we're not talking to them. We are actually talking to that part of ourselves. Oh, yeah. Right? Because we see it in them. We say, what do I know how to do? Kind of like what you're saying back with your family, right?

And yet if in that situation, to me, a mantra, I just always go to, I'm safe. This is not an emergency. I can cope with this. And our bodies actually really do start to respond to that reminder. Yeah. You can do box breathing. There's a bunch of great tricks. So many things. Just on that note about talking to a part of yourself, I'm hyper aware of that because one of our daughters is very similar to me and one is very similar to mom. And of course, we're great at dealing with the other one, the opposite one. Because yes, if I see Lincoln doing the thing that I do, I'm like, no, we've been working so hard to not do this. I cannot allow you to develop this, right? That's where it also gets a little tricky where

I think my scale has slid over time away from nurture towards nature a little bit. Just so much of this stuff that in my story I would have explained with my childhood, I now see just ever present in an entirely different environment. A little bit, it's just like, I know we're kind of hardwired to be these people. Temperament and how we come into the world is massive. So I'm hypervigilant, but I had a bunch of violent stepdads and a bunch of crazy shit going on. That was my explanation for being hypervigilant. Nope. My older daughter's hypervigilant. Genetically, that's her. But also she sees you be that. It is a combination. But Delta sees it too, and she doesn't have really any of that. I don't think it's like one for one,

like everything's exact, but I do think it's more of a combination of also what you see around you and what you pick up, what works and what doesn't work. I can use a more innocuous example. In fact, this is the one that made me start questioning how much of my story was real and how much of it, I'm just genetically this way. I would have told you one of my character pluses is that I'm very frugal and good with money.

And my explanation of that is my father filed bankruptcy three times. I lived in great economic insecurity and that's why. We have two daughters. One of them has spent every penny that's ever been given to her and then some. The other one has just for no apparent reason saved every dollar she's ever gotten. She is certainly not living in any economic scarcity. She is a hoarder like I was.

They probably have underlying traits. My guess is the one who spends more is much more pleasure seeking is less cautious oh yeah right and the other one is just saving more for there unlike maybe for your reasons it could look the same on the surface but for her it could be more maybe i'm guessing she's more cautious she's less risk taking maybe genetically you're just type of person that's like i gotta keep all i mean i don't know i don't know that's what i'm questioning i also think a lot about traits there's only a hundred percent of a trait to go around in a dynamic. And siblings are a dynamic.

Couples are a dynamic. So there's 100% of cautiousness. And siblings, especially when there's two, you can get into a binary. So one is hogging. They have like 99% of the caution. Oh, that's interesting. Right? And so there's only 1% left for the other one.

And so they also develop really in tandem with each other. This is like the left-handed, right-handed, identical twins thing. Twins are always one's left-handed and one's right-handed. Do you know this? Because they're facing each other in the womb. We got to fact check this and we will. But I definitely remember learning this in psychology. I was like, I don't know that thing.

This does not sound right, but okay, I will look into it. And updated two twins. One was left-handed, one was right-handed. But anyways, let's just say that's the same kind of dynamic, which is like we're facing each other and we play together. So one's going to get. It makes sense interpersonally. You're going to balance out what is happening around you. I'm an anxious person, but if I'm around someone insanely anxious, I become extremely calm. There's no space. You just even it out. That's right. Because we all operate in systems. So this happens a lot

with siblings where the parents will say like, I have one kid, they're always patient. They're always giving to their sibling. And I have one kid who's much more selfish, you know, and then we tend to actually intervene in a ways that only reinforces that where we'll say to the quote, bad one, why can't you be more generous like your sister? And what we're really saying to them is you are not a generous person. And then we say to the other one, okay, can you just go second this time? Because your sister's going to freak out. And so then it gets even more extreme. Yeah. Okay. Understanding the two things are true thing. I really, really love this. In one thing is true mode exchanges escalate quickly. Each person thinks they're arguing about the content of the conversation when in fact,

they're trying to defend that they are a real worthy person with a real truthful experience. that they are a real worthy person with a real truthful experience. Yeah. Yeah, that's... That's really powerful, right? I think that's what happens to me too. My marital arguments or any real intense moment is you're not really talking about the content. You're really trying to say, I'm a good person. Can you recognize that?

And then the other person saying, no, I'm a good person. Can you recognize that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And then the other person saying, no, I'm a good person. Can you recognize that? Right? And you keep going. And I think the realness thing is a really important thing for us to consider with our kids that feelings are so powerful and they're so confusing. When a kid falls down and they cut their knee, they see blood, they see a scrape and there's something useful because they're like, that's real.

I see it. It changed and I'm hurt. Whereas if you think about a kid in a tantrum, they're knowing that their body is like writhing, but there's no visual explanation. There's no sign. Where's the blood? And so I think kids to some degree are always asking us, am I real? Every time when you validate a kid's emotions, even if you don't agree with it, when you're saying like you really wanted ice cream for breakfast, even though I'm not giving my kid ice cream. What I'm really saying to my kid is you are real. Your experiences are real. You can trust the sensations inside your body, even if you can't see them. And

even if other people can't see them, that's really obviously the basis of self-confidence in life and self-trust, which is why that is so important. And that's the thing that John and Julie got me. When they were here, you're walking them through the same exact strategy in repairing a marriage, which is listening to someone's point of view, acknowledging their experience, treating it as real, and just start there and see what happens. I think that's right. We all have been raised to say, okay, and then what? I always think when we get to, and then what,

we probably should just be like, okay, probably that's just the thing. Trusting that, understanding someone, I think actually the Gottman's research is what's established this, is such a massive percentage of resolving differences and resolving conflict. The biggest thing that helps resolving conflict is actually more fully understanding each other. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

Okay, let's talk about repair. This is my wife's favorite part of your work, by the way. She was so generous. She shared that with the world on her Instagram. Now, this is one thing I actually enjoy about parenting, if I can say. A lot of things come hard for me. Some things, again, this is an AA thing. I'm very used to saying sorry. I'm very used to doing an inventory and then apologizing promptly. I'm required to do so. So I think I have a lot of practice with it, but I don't enjoy fucking up, which I do all the time. And I don't enjoy fucking up, which I do all the time. And I don't enjoy the shame and embarrassment

I have after I've fucked up. But I actually like going into them and going like, so hey, last night, this is what I think happened when we were talking in bed. This just happened. My kid had told me a riddle. I had gotten it right. We're laying in bed eight hours later

and she's going through the riddles. And I go, oh, that's the one I got right out of the four. And she goes, you didn't get that right. And I go, no, I did. I guessed the thing. She goes, no, you didn't. We get into this kind of debate about it, right? And then we're both mad at each other. Day goes by. Next day, I'm like, eh, that was a shitty way to end the thing, laying in bed. Why do I give a fuck if she thinks I'm right or wrong, right? And I'm like, oh, I know why I give a fuck because I was dyslexic and I was in the learning disabled room and I'm very easily triggered by you saying I'm not smart. I'm just trying all day long to get you to say I'm smart.

And here it happened in this eight-year-old said something that I felt dumb again. So the next night I got in bed and I go, listen, I've been thinking a lot about that debate we got in last night and I'm embarrassed to say, but I think I know what's going on. You know, because of this dyslexia thing,

I really felt like you were saying I was stupid and you're not. And I recognize that. And I was being very defensive. And I'm really sorry that that happened. Right. And then she goes, oh, daddy, I would never say you're stupid. You're so smart.

And then we just had this amazing moment. It's so fun. And I've just, in general, I kind of dig going in and telling them how I fucked up and why I think maybe I did fuck up. And I hope I'm modeling some self-inventory. I don't really believe you can teach lessons. I think you can just be an example of some. When they happen, I'm kind of grateful that there was an opportunity for it to happen. I mean, this is everything.

It's why, to me, the number one parenting strategy, it's really the number one relationship strategy anyone should get good at is repair. A hundred percent. And to me, that also is so important to say over and over because it goes against the idea of perfect parenting, right? You can't get good at repair if you haven't fucked up. Like it's literally impossible, which is why I say this in my TED talk. After you mess up, you should be like, okay, there's two steps in repair. The first one's messing up. Checked it off. Crushed it. Halfway there. People say the first step is the hardest step. So, you know, already done that. That's amazing. Look at me. Now, just one more thing to go. And I really, really believe that. One of the reasons why is what you just referred to.

The model of a relationship we have with our kids becomes the model they take into adulthood. It even becomes the model they seek out what they feel as attraction to other adults. That's actually what attraction is. It's the activation of our to other adults. That's actually what attraction is. It's the activation of our earliest attachment patterns. That's at least what I think of it as, which is why some people will go out with someone and you're like, that person was so nice. And they're like, I just didn't feel anything.

Well, if your earliest attachment patterns were one that you felt actually always anxious and insecure and you're with someone who's more secure, you're not gonna find them, quote, attractive right away because your body's like, this is new for me. I don't really know this, right? It doesn't feel familiar. Exactly. If I think about what I want my kids to take into the world, do I want them to think I'm looking for a partner who is always attuned to me, who always gets it right? They are going to be very disappointed. So that's also why when people talk about, quote, perfect parenting, not only is it not attainable, I wouldn't wish that on any child.

I wouldn't want Dr. Becky to be anyone's mom. That wouldn't be good for anyone. It would be creepy. Nobody needs that. I really mean that. I take it a step further, and this is kind of perverse. People don't love this, but this is how I feel, and I tell other dads this, especially if they have a daughter.

Let's just assume a lot of people do marry their dad. What are you demonstrating? Because how you're acting is the dude she's going to go out and get. So how do you want to act so that she goes out and gets that dude? That is a very driving force in how I am. I think that's right.

Because again, it's actually a massive privilege to go into adulthood saying, the thing that feels attractive to me is good for me. Yes. Gives you a major leg up. Who has that? Well, maybe your kids will. I'm attracted to

someone who can own their stuff, that when something doesn't feel good, I learn it's not my fault. I can actually expect them to come back to me and share a reflection and learn and maybe actually get closer after that because that's what happens in repair. You feel more connected. Yeah, oh my God. Right? How do you overcome when that's already established, your bad attachments? Well, we don't call it bad. Okay. Okay. Your unhealthy maybe attachments.

Yes. And then you are then a person in life who's attracted to some unhealthy attachments. How do you then reverse it? Because it feels like you're then just doomed. Right. Am I just going to have to be with someone I find super boring? Exactly. Like a loser.

Because they're so healthy and it's boring. Well, it's such a good question. And to me, it's so possible, right? This to me was like the essence of everyone I worked with in adult therapy, right? So first of all, just being able to tell yourself the story of how you're feeling is much more impactful than we think. So I remember seeing this woman who was constantly, her own words, always ended up with the wrong people. Just so happened. Right. Just so happened. But what we ended up getting to, and there's power and there's so much humor in this, is I was on this date with someone. I just right away, it was like feeling like amazing. And I was like, oh, fuck. Oh, and she was like, this is weird. I ended the date because you know why? Your body knows before you do. And actually saying, okay,

in that case, it's not attraction. It's actually anxiety and fear. And actually when you say to yourself, okay, do I have to be with someone boring? Or is this just the first time in my life I'm going to develop new sets of sensations over time that actually tell me this is someone I'm safe with and I'm into? Now, if I'm going to get really real about it, I think about someone I used to work with who had a really abusive history. And yes, she would find very, very abusive men very exciting. Yeah, of course.

Really, in therapy, she's like, are my choices to either have amazing sex with guys? Because when you're in really abusive relationships, the gap between how unsafe you feel and then how merged and safe you feel during sex is so big that of course it feels amazing. Relative to the homeostasis it feels. Euphoric.

Yes, and the abusive person is also in the swing of winning you back over. 100%. So you're getting like 150% romancing. So heightened. Right, and so she's like, am I choice that or being with someone where in general I feel pretty good with them. We've great conversations. I'm actually not

questioning if, you know, they're going to hurt me in a million different ways, but the sex, at least for a while, feels pretty boring. And I just said, yes, yes. I'm just going to be real. Yes. Those probably are your options for now. And like, that's okay. Like, I'm not going to say actually, no, here's the way. No, it's just not. And when you're like, those really are my choices, then we're like, okay. That's a great way to put it. You have to present people with the alternative option. Yeah. Which is like, yeah, that sucks.

But does it suck less than the other thing? And only you can know that. We had Dr. Kat Hawkins on once. Oh, yeah. It was incredible. She's a sex addiction specialist. And I was saying, you don't choose the trauma you inherit. You might want to explore

that and who's to be judgmental. And she gave us the greatest outline for this, which is it's absolutely fine for you to explore your trauma sexually, as long as there's no secrets and there's no shame. That's all you're looking for. Like a lot of people are into BDSM that had abusive, but they're in charge and they have the rules and there's no shame and there's no secrecy. Those are helpful to know when I'm on and off the right path. I have done it exclusively. You need to be a woman that I think is so driven career-wise that I'm going to be fighting for your attention. That is the hottest thing to me. I got to get a sense that I'm going to have to really earn your attention. That's what I'm hardwired to do. But I think there's a zone within that.

Again, I'm not going to be excited by a couch potato. It's just not in me because of who my mom was. But then there's a realm within I can pick, a spectrum. That's right. I'm going to like trade off some of that for some more security, but I'm still going to probably have to play in that zone. Yes, that's exactly right. And Monica, I think your question in some ways is the question I hear from parents all the time. We're always wondering, is it too late? Is it too late for me?

Is it too late for my relationship with my kid? And ironically, that fear actually is the single biggest thing stopping us from making shifts in our life. I do know how to swim, but if I didn't, and I was like, I think it's too late. Well, I definitely never go get a lesson. That's how I feel. Cause I'm not so sure I can swim. That's a new thing for her too. Yeah. And I do feel like it's just too late. But I guess I could take a lesson, but I'm probably not gonna.

You know what, maybe. I don't have time. For other reasons. And I think there's so much nuance to so many different things. But to me, the question, is it too late? I just always unequivocally have a direct answer. Like, no, it never is. And repair with your kids.

And it is my favorite topic because whether you're repairing for the thing that happened last night, like you're saying, or sometimes repair with your kids is patterns. People have moments like, wow, my kid is 10 or my kid is 30. And I look back and it's not just a moment. It's like a series of moments. Is it too late for me? And still, it's not. You address this in the book.

You're like, if you've just read the paragraph above, you're probably beating yourself up really bad. And I forget how you talk them out of that, but you acknowledge that, that it's dicey to learn this because it immediately scares you that you've fucked up and you're past the point of no return and there's nothing that can be done. That's right. I mean, I think that about learning in general, definitely learning about anything emotional, like our relationships where there's nothing that can be done. That's right. I mean, I think that about learning in general, definitely learning about anything emotional, like our relationships where there's something in front of you, it's a new idea. And then there's this paradox, like it hits something in your body where you're like, yeah, that makes sense to me. But then something else happens very fast. It can be easy to go from, wait, that resonates. That's different to, oh my goodness, what's wrong with

me? I messed up my kid forever. Right? And then the learning actually threatens change because now you have to like avoid that feeling. So you just want to turn away versus wait, I'm doing something brave. I'm considering a new idea, kind of going, I'm a good person who hadn't considered this idea before. Yeah. You're back to your original premise. Exactly. That actually makes me brave. Someone asked me recently, what is my definition of a good parent? That feels loaded to think about defining, but if I had to put words to a paper, I'd say a good parent is someone who's kind of just invested in reflecting and learning and growing. That's it. And so considering new ideas, which often then leads to, hey, you know, I learned this thing. And this way I did things for the last number of years, when I always sent you to your room,

I wish I had done that differently. And I think a very empowering way to look at it, which you bring up, is that if you think about this in a much larger time horizon, and you think about the fact that you're probably eighth generation of this cycle or 20 generations of this cycle, if you can arrest it at any point, what a Herculean accomplishment. That's exactly right. And I don't know if this is true for you, but a lot of parents say, I really do believe I'm the first adult to ever apologize to a kid ever in my family. Right. Think about that.

It's the weight of every generation and you're kind of looking back and saying, taking things from you. Don't have to reject everything. But this part stops with me. That's a lot of weight. And that is a massive gift to give that to your kid. And even if, again, yes, you read this book and they're 17, you're like, oh boy, I wish.

You can also bring them into this new knowledge and that puts them 10 steps ahead. So maybe you didn't break, break the cycle, but maybe you initiated the breaking of the cycle with your kid. Yeah, someone said to me, cycle breaking and doing things differently, it's helpful to think of it as like a big boat in an ocean. You're headed in one direction and no one can do a complete 180. But if you think about heading in one direction in a big sea, and then you shift the boat a little bit, a little shift puts you on a very different path. And I think that's what cycle breaking is. Each generation, at best, if you're working incredibly hard and tolerating all of the different feelings that come up, can do what seems like a small shift, but it actually

has a massive impact on every generation to come. So how would people who are wanting to initiate repair, let's even first walk through the experience. I think if you're a parent, well, fuck it. If you're in a relationship, you know it. You go, I did this thing. I chose a direction. I committed to it. They walked away. And I almost instantly know, I don't think that was right. I'm embarrassed.

I'm ashamed. I thought I could do better. And probably first stop is, let's just pretend this didn't happen and be different going forward. That's how I'll fix this is I will never do this again. That's right. That's like the first little lie. That's like the softest approach you can take is like, well, yeah, I can admit to myself that sucked.

We'll just never do that again. We'll keep it moving. That's most people's first thought. So first of all, I'd even challenge, and it's just maybe semantics, but I think it matters. In our worst moments with anyone with our kid, I really don't think there's a choice. Choice implies like a groundedness.

Like very few of us are like, I'm gonna scream at my kid's face right now, you know, or even I'm going to say something nasty to my husband. I think that's a solid choice. And that's not to absolve us of responsibility after. I'm not saying that, but all those moments come from a moment of pure reactivity. We're in lizard brain. I think we need to remember that because it reminds us we in that moment were a good person who was dysregulated or overwhelmed or was not able to cope. Scared. Exactly.

That's so much of it's just fear. You're like, I don't know how to fix this. That's right. And I'm out of the options that usually work. So for me, I don't know, I've just called my kid a spoiled brat or I've just yelled at them, right? This happens 100% in my house too, of course. I'm a normal person. And now, you're right, my kid probably is like off to their room being like, I hate you, you're the worst mom.

And I'm alone. And I think actually we know in our own bodies, we know it didn't feel good. So I want to go over a few things with repair, which will end with exactly how to do it. Could I just be really specific? What I'm detecting from them when I have that moment is, well, I didn't make that better.

I go, okay, they're worse off than they were a second ago after this big decision I made. Yes, we know that. I can feel it. Me too. So when we say to ourselves, you know, just forget it, I'll do better, which comes from the best intentions. I think what always motivates me to repair is actually just knowing what will happen for my kid if I don't repair. Knowing our alternatives sometimes helps us make better choices. And so if we think about what's going on for a kid, so I'll just use me. It's my son. He's now in his room. He's alone. And again, kids are oriented by attachment. They're always paying attention to the status of their relationship

with their parents based on how safe they feel. And they need their parents to be their safe adult as their steward in the world. But now the person who's supposed to deliver safety just delivered fear. And I'm saying this for myself. This is not like someone listening to me like, Dr. Becky says I'm a bad parent. I do this. We all do this, right? So now my kid is scared because mom became scary mom, which we all do sometimes. So my kid has to figure out how do I feel safe again? Because I can't grow and operate if I'm in a state of fear. It freezes you. Like I literally have to. So if I don't go help my kid do that by reconnecting through repair, my kid really only has two options at their disposal. One of them is self-blame. My kid can say, I'm a bad kid. It's all my fault. I'm too much,

or I'm not enough. We usually tell ourselves both stories at the same time. We do, right? Even in adulthood. And I quote this in my TED Talk, but I think it's so powerful. Ron Fairburn put it. He said, you know, for kids, it is better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil, which means when kids are overwhelmed and alone, they really only have two options. Is the badness outside of me in the world and in my parents, or is the badness inside of me? And as long as you believe it's inside of you, you can have control. You can make it better. So kids wire in their body a difficult situation next to it's all my fault. And if you think about how many adults have wired those two things together, that's not something adults do. It's actually our childhood stories playing out,

continued in adult life, which hold us back in a million ways. So that's one. The other one is equally as sad to think about, which is not self-blame, it's self-doubt. And so a kid can also in their room say, okay, how can I feel safe? How can I feel safe? Oh, that didn't happen. I can't really trust my perception of things. Because if that happened, I don't know, someone would have maybe come talk to me about it. And if you think about what that looks like in adulthood, how many of us have things happen and we say, did I overreact? I'm going to ask my five friends, what would you have done in that situation? It's really a sign like I don't actually trust that my feelings are real. And if I think about in adult therapy, when I used to see adults, the two stories adults tell themselves over and over that hold them back, they're those every time.

It's a lack of self-trust and it's the prominence of self-blame. And so when I think about that for my kid, when I go repair with my son, I really do mean this. Like I visualize, I feel like when I'm going, I'm like snatching those stories out of his body. I'm like, no, okay, that thing happened. I'm going to intervene because I can actually help you write a very different story. The event happened, but events aren't what form our memories. Our memory, right? And this is just to me a thing that always blows my mind. Memory is not the recollection of events. It's the event coupled with every other time you've remembered that event, which is why therapy helps. Because you're

like, why does therapy help? The events in my childhood still happened, but you've now thought about them in a different context, in a safer environment, with a different framework. And so your story of the events change, and then you change. You're like chiseling off all the layers you've put on top of the event. Yeah. Or you're putting new layers. Right. And so when you go to your kid and you essentially say, like I would try to say, you know, more often than not, hey, I yelled at you in the kitchen and I'm sure that felt scary. I always think about this line for building self-trust. It's one of my favorites. Like you were'm sure that felt scary. I always think about this line for building self-trust. It's one of my favorites. Like, you were right to feel that way. I want my

kid, when they're older, if they're screamed at from their partner, to be scared. I would hate if they were like, it didn't faze me. No, I don't know. You were right to feel that way. And that wasn't your fault. And I'm working on managing my frustration. I was frustrated, so it doesn't come out. And what I'm doing in their memory is now the event happened, but it's part of the chapter. It's not the ending of the chapter next to self-blame. So now they have a story of,

okay, that wasn't my fault. And actually, sometimes in close relationships, other people have a hard time and they then come back and explain it to you. And after disconnection can come connection again. That's the story they write. The privilege of going into the world also with that story is massive. It's so huge. I think it's really tempting. And I've had this told to my face many times, which is like, I think the more obvious move to people is to go in and go,

I don't know why you were so scared. You know know I would never hurt you. It's like a triple double down on what you felt was not real. You're offended that they thought this, that you would hurt them. Because you think it's an assault on being a good person. Yes, right. And you want them to validate that you are a good person, which is why the step we skipped here that matters so much,

to me, the thing that is always necessary before you repair with your kid, and it sounds cheesy, but it's true, is you actually have to go through a self-repair. And for me, what that looks like legitimately when I scream at my kid is taking a moment, go in the bathroom or my other kids around. If my husband's there, like, hey, can you watch them? I need a second. And this will be a theme, but essentially reminding myself, wait, Becky, I'm a good parent who loves my kid and I was overwhelmed. I'm a good parent who is having a hard time. That behavior doesn't define me.

Again, separating behavior from identity. Because if I don't do that, I can't repair with my kid because I can't face the reality because it feels like an assault on my motherhood. You're defending your identity. And you can't fight that. Or when I do repair, what I'm doing is I'm actually looking for my son to validate that.

Hey, it's okay, right? Hey, you're fine, right? We can move on. Because I haven't done the work of doing that for myself. And kids feel that. They're like, oh, okay, this is not about me. And that's not really repair. And when you do repair with yourself and you've kind of, I would say, like, reaccessed my own goodness.

Okay, now I'm in a place where I can actually reconnect with my kid. Because now I repair something, it's going to feel good for me. I feel like I'm giving it to my kid. I'm in a place where I can actually reconnect with my kid because now I repair something. It's going to feel good for me. I feel like I'm giving it to my kid. I'm not expecting something. And I'm much less likely to say, look, I'm sorry I yelled, but if you just got your shoes on, it wouldn't have happened. You wouldn't be in this situation. Yeah. I want to speak to the skeptics listening a little bit.

I love skeptics. Yeah. Okay. Because just being such a pragmatist at heart, I would be hearing this being like, okay, I get it. But my kid didn't listen to me when I told them to put their shoes on. So didn't that kind of either cause my yelling or how do I get them to listen? So there's two things. Number one, our kid's not listening doesn't cause our yelling. They're separate things. It could have happened before, but we're confusing our frustration,

which related to their behavior, with the way we managed or didn't manage our frustration. We're confusing, yes, my kid did something frustrating. I was frustrated. That is actually very separate from how able I am to regulate my frustration. And we should all be able to remember times that we were out of capacity, that we were exhausted and we were hungry. We all would recognize that we have varying levels of reaction to things. Yes, based on so many things that happened before.

The same things happened a million times and you didn't react that way. This time it did. That's exactly right. I was talking to parents once in my practice about this and they were like, I don't know, but still, if they didn't do that, I wouldn't have done it.

Like, I feel like that's really important for them to know. This hit, especially the father, I was like, okay, imagine your son is now married and this is what you overhear. Hey, listen, he says to his partner, I'm sorry that's really important for them to know. This hit, especially the father, I was like, okay, imagine your son is now married. And this is what you overhear. Hey, listen, he says to his partner, I'm sorry I yelled at you. But if you just remembered the paper towels, I wouldn't have done it. Are you proud in that moment?

Are you like, oh my God, right? So we can't model that type of quote apology and then expect anything different. We want our kid to say like, hey, you did forget the paper towels. I'm sorry I screamed at you. You know, like that wasn't cool. Right. So I think it's really important to separate those two things. And then again, I do think it's so important for my kid to actually listen to me and be able to actually listen to put on their shoes in the morning so we don't get to the place that just feels awful. That is so important. I care about that for families. But actually, the best way to do that is truly repairing with your kid and then I always say

I can't talk to my kid for 24 hours after a repair so I don't conflate the two but then because I'm reconnected with my kid I can say to them 24 hours or more later I'm thinking about the mornings they're disaster I can't imagine you like it like that I don't like it like that we're a team we both want the same things there must be something about leaving that's hard and either let's figure that out can we make that better not so I don't yell at you because you're just because like we would both rather have smooth mornings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No one's happy. No one's happy. When we leave this house. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, I've had a lot of those mornings where it's like, you guys can't be enjoying this either, right? We're all rushed and we're going to be late.

I'm driving a thousand miles an hour now. No one's happy with this situation. Exactly. I wonder if you would support this. I like also attaching something very positive to the repair, which for me, and you just hit on it, is I get excited to do it in this perverse way because I will be so proud and excited if I watch them grow up and do that in turn. And I know the only way for them to be this version is for me to do it. And so as much as I don't want to walk in there and eat crow, I am already down the road where I can see how proud I am that they will move through the world that way. So it's like very positive, or I've connected at least in my head that it's extremely positive. I think that's beautiful. And I think an awareness you have that allows you to do that.

And it's not obvious. And not everyone thinks about it this way, that the way I interact with my kid will impact them. I know for a lot of people, and I don't blame them, that's a new, oh, okay, it's not just about this moment. I'm parenting for the long run. Yeah. Well, there's all these things you start realizing. Like if when you went on vacation as a kid,

you got Dairy Queen every day you were out of town. That was like the thing you did. That's permanently vacation. It's still vacation to me. That means like we eat whatever the fuck we want. We go to Dairy Queen. So if that's true, if that gets cemented, why one in every other thing? And you come to replicate all this stuff. That's right. You're learning not just what vacation means. What does love mean? What does safety mean? What do relationships mean? What does confidence mean? Right. We

define that in our family system. Yeah. Now I would say, I don't know where I'd rank it, but I would certainly put it in the same bucket as religion and politics. Talking about parenting is very combustible. And I wonder how much vitriol you receive or how you navigate because it's so personal to everybody. I've watched some of the most awkward, uncomfortable exchanges when someone just voices an unsolicited opinion about someone else's parenting. It is like, stay the fuck away. Yeah. Does that happen? I really find myself more than anything else a very deeply curious person.

That's what led me to psychology. I just find people fascinating. I really do believe that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available in the moment. I really do feel like I see people in that way. And so people have even asked me a different question, like, is it hard for you to be around friends? Are you always judging their parenting? I'm never judging their parenting.

That's not how I'm thinking about it. And I think when people maybe push back about an idea I have, my response would be like, oh, tell me more about that. You obviously have a reason to think that way. I really don't feel a need to defend or to prove because also like we said,

there's not one way to parent. There's not one script that's going to work. There's not one belief everyone has to agree on. And so I guess to get into something combustible, there really does have to be

pushback and resistance. I don't tend to bring a lot of that because I think I'm so naturally curious. I don't know. I think curiosity and judgment are opposites. So I haven't thus far gotten into a ton of that because I think I'm so naturally curious. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I think curiosity and judgment are opposites. So I haven't thus far gotten into a ton of, but maybe it's coming.

I don't know. Well, it requires you to engage and it doesn't sound like you will. Well, I will engage, but usually not from a place of like, I feel pretty convicted in my beliefs. You seem confident. But I know this isn't true.

I feel very convicted in them and very open to other ideas. I think I have very strong ideas loosely held in everything I do. You know, hey, this is how I think it should be. Oh, you think that? That's really interesting. Tell me more. Both of those happen for me.

So I do think I engage, but I feel like I learn a lot from people who see things differently. I was just talking to a colleague because you basically don't believe timeouts. I think that's bullshit. I think you have the wrong idea. And here's actually why I think they're really helpful. And I would never say back to that person, well, I don't think that's true. I'm like, oh, okay, wait, I like you. I respect you. Can you explain more to me? It's funny. That would be the one that was brought up because I don't think these are binary. I don't think there's

behavioral modification and then your approach. I think there are plenty of times that a timeout's going to be the best option. And maybe most times for me, it's not going to be. But again, I believe there's some real good mechanisms within us that respond quite well to being in accord with your surroundings and your group. And so there are a time and place for me for that. I agree. Like someone will say like, are you against sticker charts? Do I think it's a good idea to sticker chart your kid's way through their life as your primary parenting strategy? I don't. I think that's going to not work for you or your kid. Would I give a sticker chart for, if you don't cry at drop-off, I'll give you a sticker? No, I probably wouldn't recommend that. But if there's just a moment where you're like, I just think a sticker is going to get

me over the edge for my kid listening, getting in the bath, sticker chart away. Yes. You know, so yes, I agree. Besides for things that overtly harm children, there's room for a lot of creativity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I loved your book. I hope everyone reads Good Inside. It's already known that you brought it up and she posted.

Kristen's an enormous fan and I think a lot of people trust her more than trust me. And the prevailing messages I support so much. Like I said, there's so much Gottman in it and there's also this repair I love. It's a very thoughtful and wonderful book. I'm really happy to have had you on. Thank you. It's love. It's a very thoughtful and wonderful book. I'm really happy to have had you on. Thank you. It's out. It's out. I guess my last question is, you have to now feed kind of an inferno, as do we. We have like a, we have a vortex that you just cram content into, right? And it just disappears every week. It's over. It's like, it doesn't matter how many

episodes came out last week. Do you feel the pressure or the weight of that or not yet? In terms of my podcast or Instagram or things like that? Yes, podcast, Instagram, writing books. Just content. Just content in general. You know, the place I think I pour most into, but to me it still feels like maybe I'm still in the stage of feeling like I'm exploding with new ideas, you know, is our membership platform where to me, I do feel like parents need a place to go just for trusted resources, right? We all have like SEO optimized articles usually, which is not usually that helpful. There, I don't really feel the pressure of it. I feel like, oh, I'm so grateful I have a place to put these. That's good, yeah. That to me seems understandable in that they self-generate in a

sense the content. They're proposing a question, I presume. Yes. It could be very responsive or very seasonal, right? How do we talk to our kids about Santa? Because I want to keep the magic alive, but my kid asked me directly. And I usually, just like things like that come up. But I do feel like that a little bit, especially on social media. For my podcast, probably like you all, you get to just meet so many interesting people. The podcast for me, I wouldn't feel that pressure, but the Instagram of it all, to me, I can barely fucking post one thing also it's just feeling more and more negative i don't want to contribute to anything on there no it can be everyone that left twitter came to instagram that's my assessment of what happens like all

those people that fucking were living to be in a fight with people they've left there and now are at instagram that's where it's changed yeah But that content for that, it sounds like you're still quite inspired. I am. A lot of my Instagram stuff, I'll be like walking down the street of New York City. And instead of calling a friend or something for like five minutes, I just have a thought. And I will. I'll just put my camera in front of my face and just share a random idea I had. So great meeting you.

As always, I think we're now like 10 for 10 for people that Adam Grant likes. Yeah. They come and then we like them quite a bit. It's true. He's good. He's your casting agent. He really is. He's our booker.

He's our booker and he's a great filter. Everyone that comes through is like they've been vetted. It's true. Yeah. He should do some kind of vetting. If all else fails for him. Exactly. He could just come book you guests.

It could be a pay decrease, but we'd love to have him. Yeah. Well, Dr. Becky Kennedy, everyone should read Good Inside. It's just beautiful messaging, and I think it's very comforting, and I think this could be seen as a very, very fun exploration between you and your kids, and everyone in your house that you love really could benefit from this. So thanks for coming. Good luck with everything.

Thank you for having me. Stick around for the fact check. Because they're human, they make lots of mistakes. I'm going to try it like this over my hair. Well, your hair's not up. It's on my hair, though. See, I have hair on my hair.

Oh, because of the middle part? Yeah, I just want to see how that goes. Are you going to take a picture of yourself? I think you should take it. Okay, I was going to say, how are you want to see how that goes. Are you going to take a picture of yourself? I think you should take it. Okay, I was going to say, how are you going to see? What's your plan unless you're fishing a mirror out of that tote bag? I could.

Do you have a mirror in your tote? I took it to the Rose Bowl flea market. I already know it's bad. You know what's bad? The hair. No, it's lovely. Let me show you. I got a haircut. You did?

How much did they cut off? Am I in trouble? No, but I already anticipated that I would say that and that you would feel scared. I got really scared. I know, but I don't mean for you to feel scared because it's still extremely long. Yeah, I mean, you have feel scared because it's still extremely long. Yeah. I mean, you have a long hairdo.

I know. And can you believe it was like a fair amount longer? If you had to put it into inches, how much do you think was cut off? Two and a half. Two and a half? Mm-hmm. Okay. That's a good amount.

Who did the snipping? Jenny. Oh, great. Yes. She was like, do you want more off? We had already established we were going to keep it long. Yeah. She was like, do you want more off? We had already established you were going to keep it long. Yeah. She was like, do you want more off?

And I was like, I mean, we could go a little shorter, but I like it extra long. You should, oh boy, it's so delicate. It's okay. Okay. You have such great hair. Thank you. So many people have short hair. Yeah.

I think you're one of the few people that can rock really full, long hair. I don't think you should be ever going like, I need to go short. Like, you got it, flaunt it. Thank you. I appreciate that. Why were you so scared? It's just so fucking dicey with women and hair. And men and their hair.

No, no, no, no. Yeah, you have hair issues. All things aren't equal, though. What do you mean? Like, I've never in my life had a guy tell me his feelings were hurt. I didn't notice he had a haircut. I've had dozens of females in my life. The little upset I didn't notice the haircut.

So I think it's different. I feel good about it. Bangs or no bangs. Bangs or no bangs. And then the depression that follows. Yeah. But okay, can I offer. But there's different stuff that men are super sensitive about. I just want to offer a perhaps reason for that.

Okay. Men's hair, the cut is normally small. Like there's not that much going on. Unless like Charlie when he had that crazy beard and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Or I've given myself a couple zingers that you couldn't miss. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

And then if people had missed, you might be like, are they even noticing my face at all? I wouldn't though. I think that is, I think we can generalize a little bit here. I think we have things. There's things that would upset me or that I would feel, why didn't they notice? Yeah. Not my hair. Really?

Yeah. Actually, I don't think I have that either, though. Right. Okay, great. I don't personally, like I was in the shower and I was like, oh, I have to remember to talk about my haircut. I think Dax will be scared because he's obviously not going to notice it because no one would notice it because it's really long.

Right. But if I got a bob, if I came in with a bob tomorrow and you didn't notice, I might be like, whoa. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. For sure. Yeah. But also I've sensed some hurt feelings when I didn't remember what someone's eye color was when they were a female. I've never had that with a guy. Okay, I get that.

Yeah, I just think that if we just look around America, men are doing very little with their hair. That's what I mean. It's not a priority. You know, it's not one of the big priorities. It's not. A dude, like, think if he had been lifting and he had gotten stronger and has looked, like, and I hadn't said, I think that would be a thing. Interesting, yeah. That's fair.

Or if he got a new car and he pulled up and I didn't say anything. Like, this would never cross your mind, I don't think. Like you get a new car, you're not at all thinking on your way to my house. Either A, I can't wait to show my car. Or B, what's he going to say about my car? I hope he notices my car. Every guy friend I have when they get a new car, if I don't know, like if we don't talk about it, they would feel very ignored. But you never would, right?

Well, I actually would for you. Well, because I'm a car junkie. Exactly. I wouldn't expect like Kristen to. Right. And if you go over to the Hansons, they don't say anything about your new car. You've not even noticed they didn't. No, I don't think I would notice it.

I don't know. I'm generalizing here. That's okay. That's fine. You're wearing a really cute pink sweater. Thank you for calling it cute. I like it. Oh, thank you.

It looks like a piece of candy. Like cotton candy. Yes. Well, I know I've already said this on here before, but I'm going to say it again. So what's really hysterical is like I saw that that Beckham doc and I wanna look like him. Like I need some sweaters, but here's what's hysterical. I already bought all the sweaters. Before?

Years ago. I have these, I've been buying the Beckham sweaters from my favorite place, Todd Schneider, for like three, four years, but I just don't put them on. So I'm having this crazy resurgence or re-something. Yeah. I didn't sleep. We'll add that. Okay.

And so now I'm like, I'm going to wear a sweater today. Yeah. And now I start digging through my sweaters and I have like some great sweaters that I just- Rediscovery. Rediscovering. No, I had to go out and assemble the jean look. It looks great. That's nearly complete.

You did. Yeah. Well, these are great. great oh thank you so much yeah i like this thank you there's more and more beckham every day i'm trying my hardest you're doing a good job okay elephant in the room yeah i had my witch this weekend okay and your facialist yes and she's peeling some of my face off right now. Okay. We're in the process. Okay. So my face is peeling. I cannot see that. Are you sure?

I'm a hundred. I sent you a photo of yourself. I don't want to look at it. Will you look at that photo and zoom in? Because your hair looks lovely with the headphones over it. And your skin looks great. There's nothing visible from here. No, I can tell from my skin.

Yeah, I'm deleting that picture. Okay. I just posted it. No. I just posted it. No! I just posted it. It was that quick. Don't ever do that. Yeah, so it's very peely down here. I'm trying not to touch it. I really wanted to touch it. What? No, it is. I put some makeup. You'll see

when I sit next to you. You'll see it. It's not for a reason. She did it. It's not grayscale. But it looks a little grayscale. And it feels a little gray. It feels very tight. Okay, so she's going down a few layers of the dermis. Yeah, she really wants this whole thing to come off.

This whole area. The whole face. The whole face. And so do I. Frame off restoration. I don't want you to feel like you notice and you can't say anything and it's so uncomfortable for everyone. Okay, well, that wasn't really, that was a duck, duck, goose because it's not an elephant in the room because I can't say anything and it's so uncomfortable for everyone okay well that wasn't really that was a duck a goose because it's not an elephant in the room because i can't see it

and i'm not lying to you i'm not like yeah yeah i'm being very truthful with you right now okay now why couldn't you sleep well okay cut to the end i think i know why i think i have anxiety about having to do some live stuff in Vegas. That's probably why. But to back up even further, on Saturday, it was Monster Truck Jam. Oh, I saw your post. How was it? It's so great. This looks so scary.

The show that they put on is really bar none. They go so hard. It's crazy. That's so fun. Who went? Were they intentionally crashing? They don't intentionally crash but like flip that 80 of the runs involve a crash no one goes harder yeah like especially if they get

a little nervous because there's three things there's a race okay and then there's one trick portion they get scored on the one trick they do and then there's freestyle and they have a minute and 30 seconds to go ape shit on this whole thing. Oh, wow. And I think at times if they start getting a sense that they haven't pulled up anything very good and they're not in position, it would remind you of a snowboard routine or a skate park routine. It's like there's a lot of options for them to do different things. They'll just go ape shit and they'll just fucking pin it off of something crazy and just see what happens. And they'll land fucking on the front wheels and somehow they drive these front wheel wheelies and then they just punch it and hit another jump,

do a flip and they get lucky and land. Sometimes they get unlucky. It's a mess. It's so exciting. I took Lincoln, Delta, Freddie and Ace. Oh, cute. So it was the five of us. Cute.

Which was so fun. Freddie and Ace are children, just letting people know. Yes, I had all four kids, which was totally fine. I got no problems with it. Other than it was a six-hour endeavor because it was 345 leave for Anaheim. It's a hike to Anaheim on Saturday. It was brutal. And then the event is really long.

And then driving everyone and then dropping all the kids off at home. And then, um, and then, so I went to bed pretty darn late and then my body just now wakes up at the time I wake up. So I went into Sunday with, I just was exhausted all day yesterday. Went to bed really early. Went to bed like at nine on the dot. This is going to be great.

Got to wake up really early for F1, but no problem. I'm going to get nine, 10 hours of sleep. Wake up at 2 AM. Boom. Up. Like, okay, okay i'm gonna restart my book elon musk oh walter isaacson i'm egregious i'm like i'm gonna make the timer go off in an hour so i make sure that i'm asleep before it goes off listening listening listening it goes off oh fuck me now it's three. Yeah. I'm like, okay, I got to try no book. It's too interesting. Okay. Lay there for about an hour and 25 minutes. Look at my phone, 425.

So now I'm like, and I was thinking of Barbara Kingsolver. Yep. You could write instead. She's like, use that. Yeah. I'm like, fuck it. I'm going to get up now. You got up at 430. Yeah. I'm like, fuck it. I'm going to get up now. You got up at 4.30.

Yeah. I mean, I got up at two. Right. I've been up already for two and a half hours. Yeah. And I'm going to make coffee, go to the middle bedroom and start my routine. So I make coffee. Okay.

I go into the middle bedroom and my routine starts with meditating. So I meditated. And then at the end of meditating, I was about to take a sip of the coffee. I was like, could I possibly fall asleep? Yeah, that's meditation It was like 5.15 a.m. So I went back to sleep from 5.15-ish to about 6.45 Okay

So rough night Rough, rough, rough, rough night Yeah And you think it's because that you're a little anxious Mm-hmm, yeah A little anxiety about the upcoming week, all the different festivities. That makes sense. Anywho, I think that's why I woke up.

I think that's just my anxiety. I wish I had known that that was going to happen to you because I would have had a recommendation. For? The sleep, the waking up in the middle of the night? Yeah. Oh, what was the rec? Well, you probably can't do this because I actually assume you're watching with Kristen, but you could have put on couples therapy

and watched it all night. Because that's what I've been doing, but the opposite, right? Like I just never go to bed. Okay. Because I'm watching it. And then you, so are you done? You must be done.

No, I, the third season is 18 episodes. It is? It's basically two seasons. It's 18 episodes? Oh, I didn't know that. I guess I've been watching assuming 10 will be the end. Yeah, well, you meet another entire group. It's like it's two seasons, but it's still saying season three.

I was so happy that there was going to be more. So I'm on that. I'm on like the second half of the third season, second batch. What did you think of the first batch? Oh man. I mean, I've every, every season I love. Is one better than any of the other seasons? Not necessarily.

Certain couples stories I like more, but that's about the show. This is a tricky show to talk about. Yeah. Because we're not talking about characters on TV. Real people. These are real people. But that's what I love. Okay, so whatever.

If we haven't, we talked about it a little bit, but Couples Therapy is a show on Showtime that Easter Egg, Jedediah Jenkins turned us on to, and now we've been binging. You and Kristen started it on the airplane, and then I started it and haven't been able to turn it off. And, yeah, you're meeting real couples and following their couples therapy. Yeah, and I'll add, you're meeting them at crossroads virtually. Most of the people are not there like year one just doing some maintenance. Yeah.

This is like people are there because it's questionable. And it's so interesting because there are characters you meet at the beginning or people you meet at the beginning and you hate. Like you haven't seen this yet, but in season one, there is a person who is- Abhorrent, detestable? Horrible. I mean, I end up having compassion for almost every single person on these shows. Even when I start out with like, I hate some of them.

I end up, you end up understanding everyone, whether you like them or not, you understand. Yes. I would compare it to the celebrity rehab. And it's like you tune in a little bit for the car crash of it all. And then you realize, oh, no, these people are addicts for a reason. You end up really kind of loving everyone, even when it's like a reality star you think you didn't like or whatever. Yeah. It's beautiful.

It is. But isn't it also like every one of these couples is in a closed loop pattern of communication. I know. I know. And when you're sitting above it or outside of it watching on TV or for the therapist. Yes. It's just so obvious. But you can't when you're in it see it or even I don't know. It's just so obvious, but you can't, when you're in it, see it.

Or even, I don't know. It's fascinating. We just, people are so fascinated. That's a ding, ding, ding, because this is for Dr. Becky. Oh, that's perfect. So this is ultimate. Ding, ding, ding. Where are you guys watching it?

Hulu. Oh, it's on Hulu. Well, no, it's on Showtime, but your Hulu is linked to your Showtime. I had to get the package with Showtime. I've been trying to watch The Curse on Showtime, but my Paramount, I've upgraded. I spent like two hours trying to get it to do it, and it won't. No, Paramount's got this weird thing where it tricks you into subscribing to two different Paramounts. Yeah, I've like checked my Apple account.

It says I have the Showtime package, but then I go to the app and it's not there. If it's on Hulu, that's great. And then you have to upgrade for the Showtime thing. Yeah, I was fine between that. It just wouldn't work. Yeah. I have a real new admiration for everyone. Yeah, yeah, for all humans.

I just look around and I don't know how anyone is coexisting at all or existing. Yes. Knowing everyone's backgrounds and then the parents' backgrounds and then that part. Like, it feels impossible.

Yeah. I get scared when all these people have kids. I know it's not, that's bad to say, but I do you see and yeah it's not their fault it's just and these people are in a better position they're there to help

themselves but so many people aren't and then you're just repeating the passing it down then they're gonna do it passing it it's like crazy and you really can see the layers that accrue over time yeah i think that's why like i've you know whatever i've always recommended to people like get into therapy get into couples therapy before yeah like start there yeah because it just starts piling and piling and piling and then like some of these

people they just have so much stuff that's undealt with that's over the years. And then it caused this weird malignancy, which led to that one. I know. Oh, man. And people are just finding their puzzle piece. And we romanticize that, I think. This is the other half to my whatever. And that in reality just means you found the perfect person for all your shit to come out. Yeah.

Yeah. It's an antidote to the rom-com, the show. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. It's so good. Does it make you encouraged or discouraged?

Both. Both. I talked about that on upcoming sync to Easter. I'm just like constantly going back and forth between, oh, my God, I'm so happy I'm by myself and I don't have to deal with this. And then pretty immediately, I feel this is actually the point of life. And it's hard, but it's beautiful. Yeah. Unmissable.

And is there any part of you, because there's also a part of me that's like, oh, I like this. It's not unknowable, the way to communicate and the way to address stuff. I actually, part of it, I enjoy the challenge. Or I'm like, it's a great challenge to have in life. Yeah, there are mirrors. There's better and worse ways to do it. Yeah. How was Rose Bowl? Went to the Rose Bowl. Fle, they're mirrors. There's better and worse ways to do it. Yeah. How was Rose Bowl?

Went to the Rose Bowl. The flea market was great. I got a, for lack of a better word, tiny armoire. Oh, my God. Another one? Another armoire. It's not really an armoire. I don't know who has it.

Do you have more armoires than I have cars? This could be like. Actually, maybe. No, it's not an armomoire but it does look like a mini armoire it for the kitchen i needed it for my kitchen um and some other stuff we had a lot of fun it's so fun yeah in la there's a once a month flea market at the rose bowl our biggest arena in town it was really fun i i do i I don't care if you notice my hair. But your cuff?

You noticed it! Yeah, absolutely. And you didn't say anything. You were in the middle of talking when I noticed it. Okay, well, it's okay. Also, I imagined if you didn't notice it, it would be okay. I did, and I thought,

no, I noticed it, and then I was happy for you. Thanks. Yeah. Okay, so I have now acquired the bone cuff. The bone cuff. But I need to make this clear. I didn't get the gold bone cuff.

I got the silver bone cuff. Okay. Much, much different beast. Price-wise? Yes. What percentage is the silver one of the gold one? Less than 10. Less than 10%? Less than 10% of the gold one? Less than 10. Less than 10%?

Less than 10% of the gold. Yeah. Okay. Great. So you could get 12 of those. I could get 12. Exactly. Your whole arm.

Yeah. That'd be cool then. You'd be a superhero. It would look cool. You could fight someone with a sword and clang them up. You have a built-in armor. Yeah. And what happened is.

Give me my armor. That. And what happened is... In my armor. That is such a good song. Liz and I have a video coming out in which we had to go to Tiffany. This is what you guys did yesterday? Okay. While I was waiting for her, she was actually outside,

but I didn't know. I was waiting for her and I felt so anxious in there. So pretty woman. Oh, okay. I was wearing for her and I felt so anxious in there. So pretty woman. Oh, okay. I was wearing a sweatshirt and I looked bad. You're coming from a flea market. Yeah, exactly.

It did not look like I was supposed to be there. So I was like, well, maybe I'll try on the bone cuff again to remind myself what it looks like. So I tried on the gold bone cuff, but they only had medium. So I said, do you have small? She said, no, only in silver. So try it on for size. So then I put the silver on, which is not for me. Oh, right.

That's in your mind, you thought. Yeah. Yeah. And then I really liked the silver and I thought. How does it go on? Do you have to bend it when you take it on? No. Oh.

Just slide it. Oh, interesting. Oh, wow. That's great. Thanks. Yeah, interesting. Oh, wow. That's great. Thanks. Yeah, you look like Wonder Woman. Yeah, I feel like her. You're also wearing red, white, and blue.

I don't know if that helps Wonder Woman. Oh. It feels. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I think she wears that. Red and white. Silver felt more like a day-to-day.

Sorry, this just reminded me because you look like Delta there for a second. Oh, and we were saying stars and stripes. Of course, kids don't intuitively know they have to stand for the national anthem. I've never been to a sporting event with Delta. Right. So before the Monster Jam, they fire up our national anthem. Well, we got a gal singing it down there on the course. And I like pop up and then

i like nudge i don't know whoever i was with then i look down i look at delta she's got like two huge chicken tenders in her mouth and then so i'm like hey stand up but i can't explain to her i'm like she's like why she's like a little bit further away yeah she complied thank goodness okay but i couldn't have explained it to her in time. So then she was just standing up pounding these chicken tenders. Sure. I don't know why I thought of that. But I guess you just assume everyone knows.

It was the time of David when we went to the baseball game. Oh, he didn't know. He had no idea. He had his hat on and was sitting there. I had to like nudge him and be like. Horrible. Why would you? You wouldn't just know.

No. But we've known for so long that I think, I thought you'd just know, but yeah. Do they, does she have Pledge of Allegiance? No. She doesn't? No. They're done with that? In LA, I guess.

Wow. I don't know. I'm saying that with 90%, 70. I'll ask her. It would have come up. I think so. Yeah. But maybe that's why we have more of an intuition for that, because you are taught to stand.

They say that on the intercom, right? And now, please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. Boy, I'm trying to remember if we stood for it. You have to. I did. Yeah. We did. You stand up, you face the flag.

Stop chomping on your gum. Hand on your chest. Hand on your chest. Also, it's weird, though. The Pledge of Allegiance is weird. It feels what, like Soviet? It does. You're literally saying, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.

It's weird that it's so normalized, knowing what it is. Yeah. Look up, Rob, when it started, because I do wonder if it started during the Red Scare or if there was an era where it became popular. That's so cool, because if you're a Russian spy, then you'd just be mouthing it, and then people would know. They would know. It's a test, a purity test. Yeah. Well, I was thinking, while she was singing the national anthem, and while I was making my children stand up, and then anticipating the conversation afterwards of why we do that.

Yeah. And I'm thinking like, I could give the full Noam Chomsky, Yuval Harari, statehood's a story. It's a story we tell ourself. But then I was thinking, you know, so yes, it's all these things. It's a very arbitrary way to congregate as a group. But given that this story is how it works on planet Earth, boy, am I happy I found myself in this storyline in the U.S. Even if you have issues with the jingoistic nature of it

or even the story of statehood and all that, that is what it is. So it's what story do you want to be in? And my Lord, am I grateful that I'm in this story. Me too. Yeah. 1892 for Columbus Day. That's when they kicked off the campaign.

That's when they started it. But then there's a bunch of stuff in here about it being officially named the Pledge of Allegiance in 1945, which would be World War II. Yeah. Just the end of World War II, beginning of the. And that's Flag Day 1954. They added the words under God in one nation. After one nation. Oh, that wasn't in there. Interesting.

Indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Justice for all. That's also a Metallica album and justice for all. Ooh. Okay. Becky. Becky. There really aren't.

There's only one fact. There's only one fact? Mm-hmm. Okay. But there are two things I liked. Okay, great. I mean, there's a lot I liked, but I wrote down two things I really liked. Okay.

I liked when she said that bad behavior is when your feelings overpower your skills. Because I think that is not just about children at all. That's all of our not great behavior. Yeah. Well, it's on display in couples therapy. I know. I feel bad for anyone in my life right now because every other sentence is me talking about couples therapy. Oh, sure. Like you're on a keto diet or something. Yeah. Okay. Also, when she said that there's only 100% of a trait in any given dynamic. Yeah, that's fascinating.

I loved that. And I think that really checks out in my life anyway. It does. I think so. It's interesting. You don't think so? Well, I think in some relationships, there's only like 30% of a trait visible.

Sure. That's true. I think the volumes have to be different. Yeah, I guess I was so hyper aware, but when my phone got stolen, I was with my parents. Okay. And they were so panicked and overwhelmed and anxious and whatever. And I was so calm. Because you had to be.

Yeah, because 100% was gone. It was taken already. So I had 0% anxiety, which in another dynamic. If I were there. Yeah, I would have like 80. Right. Who has the other 20? Because I'd be at zero where you were. No, not zero.

I'd recognize. You'd be a little stressed. For you. Yeah. Not because of the phone, but because of the fucking contacts and the email. And you might have the thing, which my parents had a little bit of. They were so mad. Mad at themselves.

They're mad at themselves and mad at the person. The thief. Yeah, like how could this—and then I have to say no. I have to defend the person that stole my phone. I just, yeah. So I experience it, I think. I wonder if they went through your phone and they found any pictures of friends in your life. I don't think, I think they quickly took the glass off and sold it for parts.

Not like the yearbook with Bill. Exactly. Still don't. Reminiscing through. I think they quickly took the glass off and sold it for parts. Oh. Not like the yearbook with Bill? Exactly. Still don't. He's like reminiscing through. Still don't know. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Well, because I blocked it or whatever quickly. No, never. You blocked the- The phone. Oh, okay, good. And it doesn't work in the UK. Oh, okay. So they just-

Did you do the thing where you erase everything on it? Yeah. Okay. I think. We'll see. Guru died. What's that mean? Guru from Jazzmatazz.

Oh, sorry. Rapper. I watched a video of Snoop smoking a big, big guy for Guru. Oh, that's- Yeah, that's how I actually learned that he had passed. How did he pass? I don't know, because Snoop didn't say. Oh, you only...

Okay. But... Do a deep dive. I think this is, like, cover to cover my very favorite hip-hop album of all time. Oh. It's live, real jazz musicians playing with him. It's cool. Donald Byrd.

Smooth, huh? Really smooth. I'm going to have to get back. I'm going to have to get back. I'm going to have to do like a week of in memoriam. Oh, like a tribute. A tribute. Tribute week. I'm going to have to listen to Jasmine Taz every time I get in the car.

That's nice. I like that. Yeah. Okay. The fact was about identical twins. Are they left-handed and right-handed? Oh, wonderful. There's multiple things.

One from Medline Plus. Ooh, plus. Duck Goose. Duck Goose. Identical twins are more likely than non-identical twins or other siblings to both be right-handed or left-handed. But many twins... Wait, this doesn't make any sense. It says, but many twins have opposite hand preferences.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. I know, but then... But they're genetically the same, yet they have different dominant hands. References. Okay, now let's look at Wikipedia. Oh. Or, hold on, let's look at Washington State Twin Registry. Oh.

That one is.org. Oh. Okay. Do identical twins always have the same hand preference? Question. No! Exclamation point. In about 21% of identical twin pairs, one twin is right-handed and the other is either left-handed or ambidextrous.

twin is right-handed and the other is either left-handed or ambidextrous. Since identical twins share identical genes, this is evidence that handedness is not a totally genetic trait. Left-handedness is more likely to occur in twins than in single individuals. Only about 10% of people in the general population are left-handed, but about 17% of all twins are left-handed. The cause of hand preference is not well understood. It is likely to be a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Environmental factors such as stress during birth, hormone levels during pregnancy, or position in the womb have been suggested.

It has also been proposed that mirror imaging and the formation of monozygotic... Wow. Yeah. Exotic. Exotic zygotic. Monozygotic twins. That'd be a good band name.

It would. Or improv team. Exotic. Zygotic. Exotic zygotic. Yeah. Wow. Exotic zygotic.

Good store, too. Okay. In the formation of monozygotic twins Could cause their differences in hand preference Cultural influences also have an effect As parents may encourage right-handedness Oh Not you So I dramatically overstated it

But I am delighted that it's 2x the national norm Or close to it Okay So I'll take a loss on that one I'll take a Well But that one I'll take a Well But it is elevated

It is I'm delighted that it's not complete I didn't pull it completely out of my anus Yeah Yeah That was the only fact It was very fact Free

Fact free Fact free What else from this weekend? I had a cooking day Saturday or Sunday? Saturday Well I know it couldn't from this weekend? I had a cooking day. Saturday or Sunday? Saturday. Well, I know it couldn't have been Sunday.

Saturday I had a cooking day. I made so much chicken stock. Oh, you did? Homemade. What do you pile a big bucket of bones inside of a pan? Pretty much. Really? In a stock pot, you do bone-in, skin-on, chicken parts.

Oh, wow. And then veggies. So I put celery, carrot, onion, fennel I put in. Be careful with the fennel. It's very strong. I didn't have to be careful. Too much fennel. I know. It's overpowering.

I know. Okay. Too much fennel. I know. It's overpowering. I know. Okay. And I put bay leaf. I put peppercorn.

What else did I put? Thyme. Oh, thyme. A little oregano. Fresh. They say that's the most valuable commodity. Thyme. Yeah.

That's right. Ding, ding, ding. Alison Roman has a Thanksgiving special out right now. It's an hour long. On YouTube. Oh, my dream. Yeah. That's right. Ding, ding, ding. Alison Roman has a Thanksgiving special out right now. It's an hour long. On YouTube. Oh, my dream. Yes. Did you already watch it?

Yeah, I watched it. Oh, my God. And I'm going to—so we do our Friendsgiving, Secret Turkey. Yeah. And when we do that, when we're doing it, we normally order most of our Thanksgiving food because it's so much easier for everyone. We order it, yeah. I don't even think we need to pussyfoot around it. Well, people bring, like I brought stuffing last year.

Matt and Laura bring like scalloped. People sometimes bring a dish, sometimes. But there's no obligation to because everything's ordered. That's right. Which is really, really nice and makes for a low key day. Yep. And, and it's outrageously delicious. Oh, it's so good. It's insane how good it is. Yeah. But, you know, I like to cook. Yes. So I am having Anthony and Allison and Rachel over a couple days before Thanksgiving. For a friend's giving. For another, like just a small giving.

Okay, yeah. And I'm going to make some of the Allison Roman dishes. Oh, fun. Yes. So I'm really excited about that. Will you be hosting? Yeah. She decided to do turkey legs instead of a full turkey.

Or like turkey quarters. The thigh and the left. Dark meat. The shit I like. Yes. It looks so good the way she makes it. There's like a squash thing and there's beans and stuffing of course and mashed potatoes. I have to make all of it.

Remember our insane Thanksgiving dinner last year at Michael? Yeah, Voltaggio's. Oh, my God. Remember the stuff. Are you going to make it again? I can't decide if I want to make that one or if I want to make Allison's.

But I might want to make that one. I'm making that one. You are? Yeah. Oh, so good. So good. Oh, yeah. So I made all that stock, which I'll be using over the holiday season. How long

does the stock stay good? Oh, you can freeze it. Oh, wonderful. So you've done that. You've frozen. Yeah. What did it yield? A gallon of stock? It yielded, it yielded four. Quarts? I can't, I think it was four quarts. Okay. Or almost four quarts. Probably four quarts. You know, you reduce it down. Sure. You probably start with six to eight quarts. I had so many quarts. So many quarts.

You know, it simmered for like three and a half hours. I didn't cook, but I did. This is a very exciting story. I'm shocked I didn't tell it earlier. Yeah. I have been thinking that I need to clean my gutters out for about six months. And that's not a euphemism. What could it be?

Colonoscopy. Oh, colonoscopy. Yeah, my friend Kevin Zegers was like, you know, it's so easy to clean your gutters if you have a leaf blower. You just blow them out. And I'm like, great. So I got a really great leaf blower a couple months back, and then I decided, oh, I'm going to do that. Well, my gutters are so high off the ground it's insane it's crazy how high they are up and um it was a very precarious procedure oh no and i underestimated that when i blew and mind you there's so much

dirt and fuck the leaves there's like mud and there's shit. So every time I'm on the ladder blowing this thing with, I got put it on the rabbit setting, really rabbity, very fast. Oh, wow. It's just like a bomb goes off in the gutter above my head, just dirt and shit raining down on me because it just starts blowing everywhere. Yeah.

And after the first one, I was like, oh, this is so much messier than I was anticipating. Right. And I was pretty certain I could knock it out in 45 minutes. It was three hours. Whoa. And I looked like I had tunneled out of a prison at the end of it all.

I had to have Lincoln come out and blow me off with the leaf blower before I could enter the house. And did that hurt? No, no, it was, that was just fine. It felt pleasant? Yeah. Wow.

Okay. So that must have felt good. To finish. Yeah. Yeah, to finish. Yeah. It was a pretty dirty ass job. Yeah.

And I was, you know, I'm thinking about my breathing and whatnot. And I'm like, God, I'm fucking in hell. I know. You should have worn a mask. I should have. Yeah. Yeah. I should have also worn safety goggles.

That would have been smart. Instead, I just closed my eyes while it was raining everywhere. And you were on a ladder? 30 feet up on a ladder. Oh, my God. Oh would look smart. Instead, I just closed my eyes while it was raining everywhere. And you were on a ladder? 30 feet up on a ladder. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I'm so glad I wasn't here. I would have hated that.

Yeah. Well, I think everyone felt the same way you did because everyone just went inside. Yeah, they can't. No one can watch this. Yeah, it started with me telling them to hold the ladder on the bottom, and then they just were not around all of a sudden. Oh, well, that's good. That sounds productive. Yeah, productive. and they just were not around all of a sudden. God. Oh, well, that's good.

That sounds productive. Yeah, productive. Should I get you a sweater for Christmas? It's high risk. I don't know what to get you. It's not high risk. Now I know exactly. I just like. You'd be able to just bang it.

Get what Beckham likes. What would Beckham do? Do you want a Beckham sweater? That's not your style. WWBD. Yeah. WWBD. Yeah. WWBD. Big D.

Big D. Oh, we decided, Charlie and I, that we're going to call a whole strata of weather. Okay. Between 65 and 52 for the lows. Uh-huh. Beckham weather.. Beckham weather. Perfect Beckham weather. Oh.

Because Vegas is going to have Beckham. Oh, so he likes Beckham too? Well, he's the documentary. We watched it together. Oh, right. But- Doesn't seem like- It's not Charlie's style.

Right. He's not going to adopt the style. Okay. But he loves Beckham. Got it. He thinks he's the coolest guy ever. Okay, got it. And so when we were looking at the temperatures we're going to have in Vegas, I said, oh,

it's Beckham weather. I can wear my sweater. Shit, you're gonna pack all your sweaters and your pieces? Beckham weather. Well, while you're in Vegas, you could go shopping. They have good shopping. I'm gonna try not to move around at all in Vegas.

There's gonna be a kabillion people there. And you can't leave once you're in. Anyways, Monica. Oh, no. Yeah. No, you can't leave once you're in. Anyways, Monica. Oh, no. Yeah. No, you can't because I want to talk to you right now. Okay, but we can't because we don't know yet. If he's coming.

We don't know. I'm coming. I'm coming. I told you I'm coming. I'll come. Come, come, come, come, come, come. Okay, okay. I'm coming. Okay. Now. Listen. What? I'm going back to New York. Ah. For a couple days.

The Big Apple? The Big Apple. Wait, you're going back to New York for a few days? Yeah. For what? I'm going to a special event for Sally in Argent. Oh, okay, great. I'm in a pickle, a pickle that you can sort of relate to, which is, okay, I'm back in New York.

Do I do new dining spots or do I repeat? Because, you know, ever since I went to Thai Diner, it's sort of all I've been thinking about. So I think I have to go back. But then that's one spot gone. Right. So stressful. Really stressful. Yeah. That'd be so easy for me. I would just go back. But then that's one spot gone. Right. So stressful. Really stressful. Yeah. That'd be so easy for me. I would just go to everywhere I love. And then if I had an extra slot, I would put that in. Actually, I was thinking about you in that because when you

talked about your New York trip and you went to two places the whole time, I was laughing at you guys a little bit. You're implying we were Philistines. No, not that. I just, we're just so different. And I just did want to remind you, had we not done a thing I do, which is let's try this new place. Let's try this new place. You never would have found Emily. Oh, totally true. It happened from this exact thing.

Yes. So, you know. The proclivity exact thing. Yes. So, you know. The proclivity of yours. Yeah. Yes, yes. I thank you for that. I'm not looking for a thanks. I just, and maybe when you're there, you could, for one meal.

Charlie refused to declare it the best burger he ever had, and it's now a big chink in our friendship. I don't like that at all. Right? I'm sure you would have felt equally as angry. Why did he do that? I know. What's he trying to prove? What burger's better?

That's what I said. I'm sorry. What burger's better? Exactly. What did he say? Hit me with that. I can't wait to go eat it. He didn't have anything off the top of his head.

You can't say stuff like that and then not have answers. But he did say to Chris Cut. Fighting word. Chris Cut fries were his favorite he's ever had. They're incredible. Chris Cut fries. Yeah, Chris. Am had. They're incredible. Chris Cut fries. Yeah, Chris, am I saying that right?

This is two minutes out. Okay, right. Okay, so that's all. That's everything. I feel like we were a little, not to diminish it, but we were a little

ADHD on this. All of us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a lot to catch up on. It wasn't linear. It wasn't linear, exactly. But that's fine.

That's fine. We are who we are. Yeah. Okay, love you. I love you.