Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: Bail Bonds

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

This week on Flightless Bird David Farrier investigates bail bonds in America, and more specifically - the bail bondsman. With 15,000 bail bond agents in America, it seems to be a thriving private enterprise. In Oklahoma, he meets with Ron Eden, a bail bondsman who inherited the business from his mother. What’s it like to deal with people accused of crimes and the families desperate to get their loved ones out while they await trial? David then brushes up on how you get bail in New Zealand, by talking to criminal lawyer Emma Priest. He then talks to Allie Preston, a senior policy analyst at the Center for American Progress. Allie explains why having to pay for bail is a problem and who it discriminates against - and also points out that paying for bail doesn’t necessarily make you more likely to turn up for court! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Flightless Bird is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now, Monica, have you had that thing where you go to bed, you're feeling great, and then the lights go out and you shut your eyes, and the thoughts begin? Rumination. Yeah, you go into the past, you go into every little intricate detail of something annoying that's happened, and suddenly you're from a good place and you're in a really annoying place.

Yeah, I used to have it so bad. I do feel like since I've been in regular therapy, I have it less because my brain knows to just file it away until I can talk about it with her. It helps you process things. And that's actually something I've learned recently is that you are allowed to stop your thoughts when they begin and you don't have to follow them down that path like you feel you should. I'm very proud of you for prioritizing therapy over work. I've never done this before in my entire life. Yeah, it should be totally normal to prioritize your mental health.

You should. Yeah, I'm finding that pattern good. And the whole regular weekly thing, it's been really beneficial for me. Good. If you're thinking of starting therapy, you can give Better Help a try. It's entirely online. It's designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. You just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed

therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. Make your brain your friend with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash bird today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash bird. Hi, I'm David Farrier, and New Zealand are accidentally marooned in America, and I want to find out what makes this country tick. Now, we're over 60 episodes into Flightless Bird, and there's not a day goes by that a new topic doesn't jump out at me. Things America does in such a different way to New Zealand, a different way to so many countries. But some Americanisms are so American and so ever-present they almost become invisible. All I know is he's jumped Bond and so he's going to jail. You hear that? You're going to jail.

And maybe we can work a miracle with this guy once we get him in the car and then he'll listen to us about being a good guy. But we got to put all that goodness and all that good thought away right now. And we got to go after him as a relentless scumbag that carried a gun and is screwing a con on his mom and dad. That's a clip from Dog the Bounty Hunter. He was on Armchair Expert back in 2019. And we know him well in New Zealand because of the show. Bounty hunters are so uniquely American I'd forgotten about them,

so I added them to my list of things to learn about. But while I was learning about bounty hunters, and that will be a future episode, I started to think about the people they tend to work for. Bail bondsmen. This is also a profession which is so specifically American, a commercial enterprise built around the fact that many Americans can't afford bail. So for a fee, a bail bondsman will pay your bail and then sick dog the bounty hunter onto you if you do a runner. This profession is illegal everywhere but in America and the Philippines. So I wanted to understand how it works, if it works, and how it's going. So I wanted to understand how it works, if it works, and how it's going.

So, prepare to offer up 10% cash or the mortgage on your house, because this is the Bail Episode. Touchdown in America. I'm a flightless bird. Touchdown in America. We're all here. The whole gang. The whole gang. It's back together. I feel like this is the perfect episode for me to have joined. I'm excited about this. I've had to pay a bail bondsman.

Already. This is great. We're in. Either of you had that experience? No. I've been into bail bondsman already. This is great. Either of you had that experience? No. I've been into bail bondsman offices making this episode, but I've never had to pay a bond. And there's a vibe in them, no? Oh, it is a vibe. I feel like it felt like the same if you're going to like a porn

store. Pawn shop, yeah. Yeah, flashing lights at you, the guy behind the counter because I was trying to get them to talk to me and practically no one would when I was in Oklahoma because there were a lot of bail bondsmen there. And yet, it's like you're working into a porn store, and the people behind the counter look that they work in porn. You mean, wait. Oh, I want to be so clear.

Okay, I think it feels just like a pawn shop. And the way you say porn, I thought you were saying pawn shop. I was saying pornography. Okay, shut up. Like a dodgy, like, sex. Yeah, there, six-to-a-year bars on the window. But also, like, a porn shop also. You're saying the same word twice. Porn porn.

Which one's sexual and which one's secondary market. Porn is when you're at a secondary market. Porn. That's you trying to do your American accent. I guess I see the porn comparison as well. Do we have those anymore? I feel like maybe we don't. I'm just imagining something from a long time ago.

Porn shops? Yeah. Like dicey ones, flashing at you. On the side of the interstates. Yeah, interstate vibes. I think they have them In West Hollywood Porn shops? I just

Let me put it this way Monica Oh I'm thinking of sex shops There you go Yeah toys make sense Yeah toys But pornography as Merchandise

Is kind of gone With the internet now It's not like Anyone's going to get Their steamy magazines This is true VHS tapes And stores are more

Kind of high end now And they try and Kind of make them nice It's not just like Horrific VHS Sex positive Another industry AI more kind of high-end now, and they try and kind of make them nice. It's not just like horrific VHSes. Sex positive. Another industry AI is removed. The mom and pop porn shop.

Yeah. But wait, rewind. You paid bail. Yes, I have a few times. So I'll give you one example. We have a show at the Groundlings Sunday night. We always go out for drinks afterwards, go to the snake pit. I get home.

This is at the height of my my vicodin addiction in like 2003 how old were you bullpup uh three so i'd have been 28 okay okay and um i'm not gonna say the friend but a friend calls me at 1 30 a.m i'm in santa monica i just got arrested for dui like he's panicked he's gotta get out get out of jail immediately. He's so scared. And in my mind, I'm like, yeah, just spend the night, dude. Like it's going to cost so much to get bailed out. Regardless, he wants to get bailed out. So I go down to the police station and then I got to go across the street to the bail bonds person.

And to your point, they don't want you in there. They have all the leverage. They know you're fucked. They don't want you? Why don't they want you? Because that's how they make money right i mean in the way that like they just make no effort at customer service or welcoming you to the place like they know you need them that's why they don't need to be polite or helpful you're not debating whether or not you're in the mood for a rectangle chicken sandwich

from burger king right or maybe a new blast you're there in desperation because someone you love is incarcerated street and it's 2 a.m and they know the score so yeah they're just not very nice and then you give them 10 of the bail yeah and then i got my sweet friend out but not before and this is pretty funny i went back across the street to the police station and again i wasn't drinking there's one of these weird phases where I was sober. I like, I was, I had quit drinking, but I was doing lots of Vicodin. Other things. Yeah. And I had done, I don't know, since the show, I had taken like 23 or four in the mid twenties.

And I come back across the street and Bree's with me and I'm talking to the clerk. I'm like, okay, so here's the paperwork. But excuse me. And I walk six feet to the bathroom. That's so close to the clerk. Go inside. Throw up very loudly. I mean, loudly, loudly, loudly.

Aggressive. Breeze is stuck there in the waiting room of the Hollywood police station hearing me vomit. And then I come out with a big smile on my face. And I'm like, okay, was there anything else we needed to get him out? Thinking, are they going to arrest me? I mean, why am I completely, you know, so guilty? What do I have going on? Did you pay in cash?

Did you take money from an ATM or write a check? Do you remember? Boy, what a great question. Again, it's 2 a.m. I was on 25. I can't remember. You were on it. I can't remember.

Yeah. But you paid. You paid your 10%. I paid the 10%. And it wasn't remember. Yeah. But you paid. You paid your 10%. I paid the 10%. And it wasn't a crazy amount. Yeah. And how quickly. A thousand bucks.

How quickly to your buddy was out of the station. Well, that's the thing. This whole thing took at least two hours, right? We didn't leave there till 3.30 in the morning. And at which point he could have probably hung for another three hours and gotten out at 6.30. Yeah. So it's 10% of. Generally it's 10 plus some fees that are built in as well.

Service fees, even though the service isn't great. The whole thing with bail that I find fascinating, and I guess why it's illegal in other countries, if you can't afford to pay your bond, you either spend your time in prison, which makes it really hard to get your case together and figure out the whole impending court thing that's coming up. And if you do pay, if you have a lot of money, it's fine.

You pay. If you don't have money, then you get a family member to go and you pay for it. But you're in debt then, right? And you're kind of screwed. Whereas in New Zealand, a judge decides, does sort of a risk assessment, the crime you've done, are you going to pose a risk to the community? And if you don't pose a risk, you can go out into the community and do your thing and turn up for your court date without any bond. And if you don't turn up, then an arrest warrant is issued and it goes from there.

But implicit in that system is you're at the whimsy of when the judge arrives to hear your case, right? A hundred percent. So you could be in there for the weekend. You could be. I feel like what Americans like about bail is the idea that I can pay my hard-earned money for my freedom. Yes, immediately.

Immediately? Yeah, start working on my case. Yes, totally. And that, yeah, if you have money, I guess that's great. If you don't, it's less great. The risk is, in New Zealand, if you get a bad judge or someone who's shitty, then there's

if all you can do. Well, you still have to go to court. You do. In America. You're basically giving them money that they say, you can have this back when you show up for court to stand trial. Oh, they give it back? Yeah.

Yeah, if you turn up, you get it back. Not the 10%. Not the 10%. No, the 10% and the fees are still gone. it not the 10 not the 10 no the 10 and the fees are still gone you're paying the bail bondsman 10 so that they can secure your collateral exactly your original bail amount yeah doesn't the entire thing feel very old westy oh so old westy and there's a few things in america that feel that way to me like i write checks to pay my rent. That feels old school-y. Putting quarters in the parking meter.

That feels like kind of this old fashioned weird thing. Even voting. Voting on paper. Yeah, going into your little voting booth filling it in. I mean, I know why we have to but it is weird and old fashioned. What was your other bail? You did another bail session?

Two other folks go down with the UIs where I had to. You're a good friend. You're the good friend of Cole. Well, that's the latter part is what it is. Everyone knows I'm in no good. So it's like, fuck, I don't really want anyone to know about this. Tax won't be judgmental of this. I think that's really at the core of it.

Yeah, okay. You know, and my friend, he was intending on hiding this from, I think, everyone else in the performing arts community we were parts of. So it's normally $1,000. It was $1,000? I want to say in that case of the DUI, it was $1,000. Yeah, it depends on the crime. I suppose what you've been accused of, how much bail set at. In some states, no, they have mandatory murder.

There is no bail. Right. Certain things. First degree, you're not going to get bail. Certain things, there's no bail going on. But I think the stat I read that sort of surprised me, although America is very big, there's 400,000 people held in local jails while waiting for trial every day. Wow. Just waiting. Which is a lot of people each day. It is 0.1% of our population, right? Yeah. A tenth of 1% of our population.

Because times 10 would be 4 million. Times 100 would be 400 million. I'm so bad at maths. I think you're right. Yeah, I think it is. It's a lot of people waiting in a Britain cell, you know? I wonder how many are in Philippines. Because didn't you say only the Philippines have this system?

Just you and the Philippines that use the system It's literally illegal anywhere else The idea of having this entity Outside of the courts And the justice system that's like a for-profit business But yeah I set off to You're not going to object Monica? You were snoozing?

I wasn't but sometimes it's hard to talk when everyone's talking Oh this is boys isn't it? We're all talking Oh it's fine, talk when everyone's talking. Oh, this is boys, isn't it? We're all talking and poking. Oh, it's fine. Boys are boys. Boys will be boys. B-W-B-B. No, I've never been arrested.

So, oh, God. I just can't imagine it happening, Monica. I can't. What would it happen for? This was a big debate we had on an episode. Like, could I ever be? She said I would never. I'm like, be careful.

No, I said I would never do. Trank. Trank. Yeah. It would be a driving thing. I stand by that. But also never say never. Because if I lost everything tomorrow and everyone in my life died and I was in so much pain i might do next to you

and they're like hey you want some trank i might be like fuck it i guess yeah i'd rather be slumped over in a ball for the next four hours to be thinking about whatever setting anyway but no i've never been arrested and so i do find this kind of a fascinating topic. And in Good Will Hunting, he has bail. And that's really my reference point for it. This is your lived real world experience. And I never really understood it. And I think maybe a lot of people don't really understand it. They just hear it.

Yeah, I'd never thought about it properly until this episode. Well, Monica, and I do not want to put you on the spot, but you don't think you've ever been over the legal limit when you were driving? Oh, my God. Dex, you're going to get me arrested. No, I'm just saying, like, I see you. You play it safe.

But also, certainly there's been some times you probably would have blown a.08. You've been close at some point. I think people would relate. I've been walking lately to places. Okay. Well, that's lately. I'm just saying in your career as a drinker.

I mean, yes, probably. Why are you doing this? Why are you here? I wasn't being close. I'm just saying that's an example of you would potentially need bail. If you got a DUI. If you got arrested for DUI I know I'm not the one that said I would never get arrested

David did Okay yeah that's true I think there's a chance You're saying you'd definitely get arrested at some point I don't know life is long And we just don't know And I could get arrested I really don't want to though

I hope you're seeing this as my favorable opinion of you, which I'm not counting you out for anything. You might have shaved sides one day. You might be at a punk show in the pit. These are all things you want. You want me to be a rebel. An outlaw. I know. I feel now I'm really nervous because I am drinking today.

Right now? Later. She's in your mug. Is it St. Patty's Day? I didn't know. Jump straight in that car Right now? Later. She's been on it all morning. Is it St. Patty's Day? And I didn't know. Jump straight in that car. Later, later. Because BTS, I'm done drinking for a while starting tomorrow.

Oh, so today's a big one. Yeah, we got to get in a week's worth of drinking tonight. Today's the day I get the call from Monica. Monica's calling. Better take the call. You can relate to everybody who's gone to treatment at this point, Monica, because this is everyone's last day before treatment. It's dangerous. No, it's going to be fine.

It's going to be fine. I'm not going to drink that much. But now I'm like, I'm going to Uber. Now I'm scared. Okay. I didn't mean to scare you, but I love this so much. Well, I mean, drinking and driving is like the worst. That's the worst thing you could do.

But it's so easy to do. Like one of the easiest because you're so full of confidence and you're just going home. You know the route. I think it's what Esther Perel says. Infidelity is universally reviled and universally practiced. Yeah. So it's one of these things that we all totally agree no one should be driving the car while they've drank and yet most of us have driven a car after we drank so

you're in this tricky sitch where it's like do you want to be dishonest i don't want to be dishonest but i do want to not be doing what i'm doing like i drinking and driving is it's not a good look so bad i mean it's gonna and i want to be clear because now it's sounding like you drinking you drive drunk you don't you don't no but everyone has that moment i guess you'll drive after a drink which you're probably legally golden right yes yeah yeah it's just like how many is it is two okay i think like two they say in like two hours and you're under we We'd have to look it up. I don't want to advise anyone.

My tolerance is high. I have a question. I haven't been driving here for long in America, but I've never been pulled over and I've never gone through. In New Zealand, on a Friday or a Saturday night, it's hard to drive out and go into town or go anywhere without there being a drink driving stop. So you'll get pulled up and everyone gets breathalyzed and breath tested.

Everyone? I'm saying, I mean, everyone on that road will be stopped and tested over a two hour checkpoint. Yeah, but in America, I feel like I'm never going to get pulled over here. Do you know what I mean? Yes. You're right to feel that way because I'm from Detroit and you got to watch your P's and Q's in Detroit. And I was just home driving and I'm reminded that they have speed traps like every three miles on the highway. There are no speed traps here in LA.

What is a speed trap? So where they're running radar, they're on the side of the road and they're running radar and they want to give speeding tickets. Yeah. The CHP doesn't work that way. The CHP cracks down on areas that have had a high fatality or collision like they only address problemed areas they're not just blanket they're not just trying to rack up tickets right this is not what they're about but every time you cross into a new city their local police are on the highway getting some revenue yeah and also at night if you're're driving past midnight, a cop's going to get behind you

and they're going to follow you for a while and they're going to run your back. So scary. But that doesn't happen in LA. They've got bigger fish to fry. They're like waiting for strong arm robbery and all these other, and there's helicopters flying. Yeah. So it is different.

I think your likelihood of getting pulled over at a random traffic stop in LA is one tenth of what it is in Detroit. No, that's what I've found here. And I wonder if LA, that does make people more likely to jump in that car. We have a good culture here, though. I think culturally, LA is very against drinking and driving. I think peer-to-peer, it's not cool. No one likes it.

Yeah, it's looked down upon even just within your own friend group. Good. Like no one wants that. Yes, it should be. But what my group of friends and when I was in Detroit, it was like, we all knew we were going to be driving blasted.

It was more about like, you better take Hickory Ridge home because I think that cops, like no one's shaming anyone. It was understood. Again, also rural Michigan, the bar's 12 miles from your house. How the fuck,

there's no Uber back then. There's no cabs in our town. Detroit sounds like New Zealand. But also you got pulled over the other day. I saw it. I got pulled over a few times in like a week because I had no plates on my car. Right, exactly. So they are

kind of paying attention. Yeah, but you're always in sort of quite full-on cars as well. That's a great point. And you're often zhuzhing around. I think if... That's true. You are zhuzhing. I think if I was driving your Prius without plates, I wouldn't have got pulled over. But yeah, a fucking lowered Hellcat widebody, 700 horse, blacked out windows, no plate.

It looks like guys coming from a bank robbery. I'd pull me over too. Yeah. I'm glad they did. And there's me and the kids every time. You're glad. I mean, just like for my own safety, for crazies like you. It looks like a hitman car from a movie for sure.

I love this. Yeah, I drove by and he was getting pulled over. Really good for this conversation. It literally just happened. Yeah, I pulled up next to you. You were in front of me. But I had passed you. You had gotten off the highway early.

Yeah, you passed me because I drive kind of regular and Dax drives fast. Well, no, but I was excited to see your car. And I was with the kids and Kristen and we all waved. And then I went about our business of getting us home speedily. Everyone's on a schedule. That's such a fun thing to see play out in front. I wish I was a little fly on the wall. We've also got pulled over. When I've been in the car with you,

we've got pulled over. He gets pulled over a lot because he's speeding all the time. I think I'm a pretty safe driver. I've only crashed once in New Zealand when I was on a dirt road taking a shortcut back from a holiday. And I spun out and I went into the forest and a tree stopped me. It was really scary though.

Oh my god, a tree stopped you. I was dovetailed. It's that thing where you overcorrect one way and then back the other way. And I was just a mess. Were you on your phone? I wasn't on my phone. Okay. Were you drunk? I wasn't drunk.

Were you on peyote? No, I wasn't on none of those things. But I've just crashed once. I think I'm a really good driver. I thought you crashed a car here that you were borrowing. No, I left my car for my friend in New Zealand when I got stuck here. And he had it for three days and rode it off on day three. Well, he didn't crash my car, but my tire exploded.

Oh, the tire blew out. Okay. Yeah, Monica's car was car tires were in bad shape. And you blew up on the freeway. Yeah, but it could have been his driving. Could it? It sounds like he's getting into tank slappers all the time shape and you blew up on the freeway. Yeah, but it could have been his driving. Could it was. It sounds like he's getting into tank slappers all the time. Blew up on me.

Probably the most American thing that's ever happened to me is when I did break down, I was waiting outside of the car because it was too hot inside. And this car pulled over behind us. And I thought they were coming to help me and my friend. But a guy just got out and did a silly dance in front of my car while the others filmed. And then got back in the car and fucked off. Oh, so influencers? Yes! Fucking influencers! I thought, oh, someone's here to help. This is beautiful.

I love America. Silly dance. Fuck them! A drive-by influencer. It was so... Silly dance! I am in America. Here I am. I wish I would have saw that. Oh, it was so... I looked through TikTok for a while to see if it was like a trend or something.

Right. Fucking not helping disabled cars is a trend. It probably is. It probably is. Sick. All right. So look, for the little documentary this week, I was in Oklahoma. Ro noticed there were a lot of bail bondsmen offices everywhere.

I mean, they're everywhere in America, but Oklahoma seemed high. So that's where I started my little doc. I'm in a part of Oklahoma called Bricktown. There's a canal down here and all around it are lots of bars and places to eat. Out of everywhere I've been in Oklahoma City so far, this bit feels the most alive to me. It's outside one of the bars. I end up talking with a guy who is curious about my sound gear. He's bigger than me, taller and wider. His name is Jeff.

He's a biker and he's a big unit. I've lived here about almost 38 years. I mean, when I first came here in the 80s, bro, this is where you came to buy crack and weed. I swear to God, man. But Jeff says Oklahoma is on the up and up. He loves it here. Coming from California, this is a state where you can, with your mind and hard work, and I think you can do anything you want here. I really think of this as like LA in the 70s. I'd been canvassing locals for their take on bail in America and the bail bondsman, just because I'd seen so many places around town advertising bail bonds. The billboards beckoned me. 24-hour bail bonds. Fast professional service.

At night, fluoro lights flashed as I drove by. I mean, I've seen them all around America, but it had just struck me. What is America's obsession with bail bonds? We don't have that at all in New Zealand I'm just curious what your take is If you even have one On the bail bonds system here And how that works It's strange you ask

I know about your system well I ride a motorcycle As in, he's been to New Zealand Where, yes, we have bikers, gangs All that fun stuff America has And you know in New Zealand I mean,, you can be labeled simply by a tattoo. And to be able to take away your right, it's like being proven guilty off the top. He's on a tangent, but I'm going with it.

Because he's right. I think it's fair to say in New Zealand, if you're tattooed and driving a Harley, the police back in New Zealand are more likely to hassle you. I also know some guys that ride some motorcycles. There's this huge stigma going out against a lot of bad behavior against certain groups of people and to categorize them and not give them the opportunity to prove their self-innocence is, I think, a little bit out of touch. You're arrested and you have no way of bonding yourself out to take advantage of all your rights.

And nothing against New Zealand. My takeaway is that he likes the idea of being able to pay a bond to get out of prison while you await trial. And he thinks that doesn't exist in New Zealand. That you sort of remain locked up awaiting trial. Well, he's sort of right in that it's rare that anyone pays a bond to get out while they await trial. But that doesn't mean you can't be granted bail in New Zealand. It's just up to the judge, not money. And in New Zealand, unless there's a good reason,

we don't like keeping everyone behind bars while they await their fair trial. I think that incarcerating people who have the presumption of innocence feels like something that as Kiwis we're fundamentally opposed to. I'm talking to New Zealand criminal lawyer Emma Priest to check my reasoning on all this, because I realise I'm not 100% sure how bail works in New Zealand. I've never had to get it yet. I was almost arrested once on New Year's Eve for drinking a beer in a no-beer zone, but I charmed the police officer and avoided the cells. Yeah, so it's the judge. So we make an, well, Defence Council makes an application for bail.

It can be bail simpliciter, which means without electronic monitoring. And they basically go through a series of factors, which, as I said, are set out in the Bail Act. There's different factors for homicides, obviously harder to get released on bail, different factors for serious drug dealing. You have to satisfy the court. You won't commit any further serious drug dealing if you're released on bail. And also if you're facing sentence. So if you've pleaded guilty and a sentence of imprisonment is likely, then it's much harder to get bail.

An American would argue that if there's no money involved with bail, what's the incentive for anyone to turn up at court? There must be a bond put down or else everyone's just going to run for the hills. Yeah, I mean, I think one, New Zealand's quite small, so it's pretty hard to hide, I think. Secondly, I'd say the police are pretty good in New Zealand. People, they seem to be found pretty quickly. Very few exceptions to that. pretty quickly. Very few exceptions to that. The third thing is that of course with those two factors in play what you're left with is that if they are caught and they repeatedly breach their

bail particularly by re-offending they're just going to be remanded in custody and as I said that can be say a two-year wait till trial which is can be really significant. So to reiterate paying bail is very rare in New Zealand. It's only available in the High Court and it's very, very rare. And we certainly don't have bail bondsmen involved in that process if it happens. Or bounty hunters. Okay, so two things here from my perspective about the American system. One, the idea of having to pay a cash bond to get out of prison while you await trial seems unusual to me.

And the idea that if you can't afford it, you have to go and visit a bail bondsman, that feels like a disaster waiting to happen. Maybe it's not just me that finds all this weird. Bail bondsmen are unique in two countries, the Philippines and the US. It's illegal everywhere else on the planet. But I realized I still didn't really know how paying bail works in America. And so I got in touch with someone who did. So my name is Allie Preston, and I'm currently a senior policy analyst at the Center for American Progress. Allie Preston isn't a big fan of the American system of bail

bonds. She wants to see America's 15,000 bail bond agents go away. For reasons she'll explain later. The general process that occurs is if you are arrested for a crime in this country, there will be a decision of whether or not you will be released pre-trial or you will remain incarcerated. If the judge deems based on a variety of different tactics, one common tactic in the U.S. is to use bail schedules, which basically is just a list that says if a person is accused of this crime, this is how much money they should have to pay to get released pretrial. So when a person is not able to afford the amount of bail that they are assigned, they often will turn to a commercial bail company to help pay for that cost.

A commercial bail company is a phrase that might seem normal to an American, but it's really surprising to me. The idea that there's this outside business making money off the justice system is really American. So if you have a $10,000 bail assignment, which is about the average in this country, you would be responsible for paying $1,000 to a commercial bail agent. So a person who can't afford bail themselves goes to a bail bondsman who pays the bail for them if they put down 10%. I was curious how much bail was for different crimes. It varies a lot depending on so many things. Age, history, circumstances, state, whether it's a state

or a federal charge. But some ballpark figures, as I had no idea, maybe you circumstances, state, whether it's a state or a federal charge. But some ballpark figures, as I had no idea, maybe you don't either. Bail for second degree murder can sit at around $250,000. Accessory to first degree murder, $500,000. Voluntary manslaughter is $100,000, while involuntary manslaughter is more like $25,000. Assault with a firearm, manslaughter is more like $25,000. Assault with a firearm, $50,000. Assault with a deadly weapon, $25,000. Kidnapping ranges from $25,000 up to a million. Burglary, $20,000 to $50,000. And then, with all that in mind, it's then the bail agent's job to keep on your ass so you end up in court. If you miss court, they don't get the bond returned. And that's when they might call in a bounty hunter. Bail bondsmen don't want their money to disappear. So they're really motivated to chase you down and bring you in quickly. So the commercial bail agent will then try to

first find the person who did not appear. If they return the person to custody within a certain period of time, it's usually 30 days, sometimes a couple months, depending on the jurisdiction. Then the person goes back to custody. The bail agent doesn't have to pay any money to the court because they have satisfied it. If they are not able to return that individual in the amount of time of the grace period, then the commercial bail agent is going to employ a variety of tactics to try to get the money from the individual. And this often, unfortunately, is really combined with a lot of abusive and manipulative practices.

Working for a bail bondsman, I guess you do things like kick down doors and wrestle people to the floor to make them get to court or get the money they owe. The official term for a bail bondsman, I guess you do things like kick down doors and wrestle people to the floor to make them get to court, or get the money they owe. The official term for a bounty hunter is bail enforcement agent. There are other catches for those who can't afford it, who have to resort to using a bail bondsman. If you can't pay that 10% fee, then chances are you'll end up with a predatory finance plan to pay it back. Also, some bail bond agents are not just happy with their 10% fee. There can be other hidden fees as well. One of the key ways that they make money, though, is through their assignment of fees. If you don't appear to court, they can assess very large fees

that they will often call a recovery fee. So there are instances of people who are charged like $20,000 because they accidentally missed their court date. To make sure their client turns up to court, some bail bondsmen require collateral as well, like property, your house, or your parents' house. As journalist Adam Lipchak put it, a bail bondsman means you're an insurance salesman, a social worker, a lightly regulated law enforcement agent, a real worker, a lightly regulated law enforcement agent, a real estate appraiser, and a for-profit wing of the American justice system.

With all this buzzing around in my head, it was clear I needed to meet a bail bondsman. This seemed like it would be easy. Driving around Oklahoma, signs screaming bail bonds weren't hard to find. You just follow the flashing lights. But while their locations were easy to find, it was not easy finding a bail bondsman to talk to me. It took me a few days. I mean, they talked to me when I walked in, but going on a podcast? Not a chance. Until I met Ron Eden. The business started with my mom. She started when she was about 66. Ron Eden inherited Eden bonds from his mother. He's now 82 and is one of the calmest, slowest talkers I've ever met. He reminds me of the westerns I used to watch with my dad growing up. Oklahoma is still a state that believes

that you shouldn't steal somebody else's property unlike California. Little dig at LA there but I'll let it go. Shoplifting is still an issue here. Assault and battery, domestic assault and battery is something that is treated seriously here. His voice is like ASMR. You could use him on a sleep app to get to sleep, but don't go to sleep because I love Ron and I want you to listen to him. listen to him. Ron doesn't fit the mold of the bail bondsman that I've built up in my mind as some kind of extra slippery car salesman. He sees his role as a vital service to the American public. In a sense, there is a contract that exists between me, the co-signers, the moms and dads, the mobs and dads, and the court system.

If Johnny doesn't show up for court, and if we cannot find him and get him back in time, then the court says, bring us the money. And Oklahoma does not permit payments. If it's a $10,000 bond They want $10,000 So that's The risk That we take When we bond somebody else

He tells me sometimes those who put down the bond Regret it They fall out with the person they're bailing out And want to escape their contract Ron says that's hard They have to find someone else to replace them on the contract. I remember that quote from earlier as well, that bail bondsmen are also social workers and real estate agents too.

Sometimes, given the size of the bond, we will say that you've got to put up property. We're not talking about a vehicle. We're talking about homes. In Oklahoma, if you try to put up a home with the court system, the courts require that the home shall be worth four times the bail amount. So if it's a $100,000 bond, you've got to have a house clear that is worth $400,000. A $400,000 home on the line is a big deal. That someone has to risk losing a home to get someone out from behind bars or their way at trials seems a bit bonkers. But the way Ron sees it,

he's providing a service to people who need it and want it. that he's providing a service to people who need it and want it. I am aware that we all have clay feet and any of us at any given time can do something illegal. And I think all of us have at some point. I just don't see the people coming through our door here as being nefarious people without worth i see people trying all the time quite often they get addicted and lack control over their actions but there will still be for the most most part, moms and dads and grandparents and

others who will continue to love them and try to get them out of jail. Before I leave, I ask about the giant pink teddy bear sitting on his desk. He tells me a client gave it to him when he helped them out. One of these days, I will find a family that will come in here with children and I will hand that to them and that'll take care of that. Ron is currently thinking about the future of his business. He took it over from his mom when she got old and now he's gotten old himself. He's not quite sure what to do next. From what I can tell, he works with just one other guy who's been quietly eating a sandwich in his office while me and Ron talk. And Ron? He's at a crossroads in the bail bonds business. I'm not married and I don't have children. So I am faced with that issue because I am 82 years old and there is an end coming and so I need to do something as to who would want to

take this on stay tuned for more flightless bird we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors flightless bird is brought to you by Helix Sleep. It's weird when I think how long I've been in America now for, because it feels like, sometimes I think it's just been six months, but it's been about two years. Wow. And I've had my Helix mattress for a year and a half. How's it holding up? It's really, really good. Yeah, I like it. I am a back and side sleeper and it suits me really well. The Helix lineup offers 20 different unique mattresses, including the award-winning Luxe collection and the newly released Helix Elite collection and a mattress designed for big and tall sleepers. It's a

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I love Ron Eden so much. Somebody needs to marry Ron. I hope an armchair marries Ron. Honestly, when I was leaving his office just then, I was like, do I take over the business? He's like, it's in the family. He's got no one to pass it on to. He just sounded like it was really weighing on him.

I feel like he was you. I feel like this was all a trick, a punk. Why do you think that? Exactly. It sounds exactly like Ron. What would lead you to believe that I'm Ron? He's beautiful, right? Yes, he is. That voice.

Also, 82, he sounds very sharp. He was super sharp. I walked into so many bail bonds offices and they just laughed me out. They're not talking to me in a million years. I'm not dissing you. I just want to know what you do and how your day works. Absolutely not. Ron was so lovely. Well, he's old

enough to know who gives a fuck about anything. Yeah, I think you're right. All this stuff we worry about as we get older and older. I think you're right. Do you ever get your feelings hurt when people say no to you? Absolutely. I don't like it when someone says no. I feel it's a rejection.

It's mean. It is. I feel, do I offend you in some way? How could you take it personal? You're a reporter. People don't want to be on record saying stuff. There's nothing personal. For this podcast, though though this is so chill you know i'm just talking about obviously like what's your favorite pizza place and they're like no i don't want to talk to you oh man like is that bad talking to me i've got

a funny voice like is it amusing for you in some way well i saw this which this is a easter egg for an upcoming episode we went out together I got to see this in person happen. In action. Yeah. And I felt codependent. You did. Yes, because he would just like stick a mic in someone's face and ask like, what's your favorite Halloween candy?

And I was like, oh, my God. Without explaining anything to them. No. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes the microphone's enough. You know, we're in LA. Podcasts are everywhere, aren't they? They get it.

But I felt like you were a bit like a beard being there almost. I was. You helped me because I felt less scary approaching people with you. I felt like when he would do that and I could see someone sort of like flinch, I would just be like, ha ha. Like I would like poke my head in. I was like, I like Twix. Oh, you would start.

No, after he would say it and they looked really confused, then I would show my small face. Oh, you weren't posing as like a willing participant in hopes that they would want to join. Oh, I'll talk to you. Excuse me, ma'am. And then the ma'am would go, no, you excuse me. I was talking to this man from Britain.

I think there's a huge difference. If you've got a six foot two man approaching with a mic, it's like, talk to me. Wide shoulders, strong legs. You might be a bit reticent. A lot of testosterone in the beard. But with Monica there, it just makes things a bit more chill. It's like, oh, this guy's not solid.

He's got a friend here. You don't need to explain this to me. I've done 700 episodes with her where she's doing exactly this. I know exactly what her power is. Disarming. It was really good having you there. But it made me feel scared every time you would ask anyone anything. Because I think I'm more skeptical.

So if somebody just stuck a mic in my face, I'd be like, no, thank you. I'd be that person. The accent does help me a lot in this country. I'd be like, no, thank you. I'd be that person. Yeah, the accent does help me a lot in this country. I say, I'm from New Zealand. My spiel for the show is I'm from New Zealand. I'm making a podcast about American culture. I've got a few questions. And that usually makes people be like, okay, whatever.

Right, but sometimes you wouldn't do that because you were on the escalator and it would be too quick. You didn't have time. So you'd just say, what's your favorite Halloween candy? Have you ever turned up on Halloween candy and candy and the dog ate it what excuse me um so the next thing that i became curious about yeah in my little documentary was where bail came from in the first place why do we have bail bond okay can i say one thing though please

as the always resident um i don't know, American. Skeptical. No, I guess I'm always like, I think I'm always defending America when I'm involved in these. One thing I will say that occurred to me, because I don't like the system. I don't like that poor people can't get out and rich people can't. Obviously, that's flawed and I'm bummed about that part. But when I think about the notion that somebody has to go get the people that aren't showing up for court. And would I rather have that privatized where we're not paying for that,

the criminal's paying for that versus society's paying to go round them up. And that way I kind of like it because if the bail bondsman didn't go find them, a police force would have to. And we would have to pay for that police force and we'd have to pay for the liability that arises from that.

So the notion that the criminal ends up bearing the, granted i shouldn't say criminal a lot of people are innocent yeah but regardless the innocent people i think show up for their court date by and large you know but if okay let's say it's kind of a cool workaround arrested yeah okay and i paid my bail my court dates in sept. Oh, God. It's a horrible day for the court date. But yeah. And I don't show up. It's not the bail bondsman who will find me, right? Because I paid

the bail. You gotta use the bail bondsman. So let's say your bail was $1,000 and you gave them $100, 10%. No, but why can't I just, I can't just pay? You could. You can pay your own- You only go to a bail bondsman if you don't have the money. Right, exactly.

You can't afford it. So I'm saying if I do have the money and I pay the bail, but I still don't show up for court. Then the city has to go round you up. Right. And so taxes are paying for that. For the people who pay their own bond, sure. Right, okay. I guess I'd counter it by thinking of those 400,000 people that are sitting in cell right like that's a cost to the taxpayer so preferably if people could just be let out not

in the cell so they can't pay maybe it would all balance out a little bit but if they're murderers they have to leave the murderers i want the kidnappers i want the yeah i do too i want a lot of them i just don't want drug people. Yeah, that's the interesting thing though. Like, yes, so many people that can't pay bail. I think a lot of people, or I sort of always assumed it was murderers. But like so many people that are incarcerated, they're not a threat. Oh, petty crime. I know.

They're just stupid little things, right? The dumbest little things. I bet of that 400,000, 100,000 of them are sleeping off a DUI. Totally. Oh, exactly. Yeah. If not more more i'm sure it's probably people in the inlet haven't paid for parking and stuff but when you do think about a system that makes the criminal pay for their own investigation and arrest i like that if you

just isolate that one aspect of it i gotta admit i actually like that you go in and fucking rob uh macy's at gunpoint and then you skip your bail, and then I got to pay to go find you. I'd prefer you had to pay for me to go find you. I know, but they already don't have any money. It's like this cycle where they're not going to have it. Well, they got a good amount of money from the Macy's robbery in this scenario. Oh, they did? They were successful?

They were. Well, yes. They ditched the money before they got arrested. Yeah, it does have a tendency to keep kicking people who are down continuously until they can never get up again. And if they're innocent. And yes, that's the thing as well. But if they're innocent, they're going to go to court. Innocent people aren't skipping their court cases.

Yeah, this is just for the people who are skipping. Yeah, but I mean, the worst thing is innocent people that can't pay the bail and just end up in a cell for an extended period. Well, what sucks is they do have to pay 10 regardless and that's not refunded yeah even if they're found innocent you do oh yeah because think about it that what they're doing is they're lending you money at a 10 fixed apr so if you pay your bail with cash you just get all that back yes the the city says it's a thousand dollars000 for you to walk, and you provide the $1,000. You show up at your court date. You get the $1,000 back.

The bond is their collateral that you're going to return on this date. Right. Oh, right. So you forfeit your collateral if you don't show up. But if you show up, you get it back. It's a $14 billion a year industry. Oh. $14 billion.

Oh, my God. It's big. When we were making Hit and run in 2012 we had investors that paid for it but then one of the producers was like i'm gonna bring a new person that wants to start financing movies i just want to introduce you to them on set i'm gonna love this already and then all of a sudden this woman comes over several necklaces with diamond encrusted words and names and everything and she's ready to finance movies. And she owned a bail bondsman.

No. Company. All of her money came from bail bonds. Bail bondsing. I kind of like that there's all these women in this. I like that. It is weirdly matriarchal. I've seen a few docs on this.

Wow. And there's a lot of women in this. Badass. Well, even that guy inherited it from his mother. He did. His mom started it. Yeah. Until she was in her 60s. Should I start one? And look at Beth and Dog. Like, even that guy inherited it from his mother. He did. His mom started it. Yeah. Until she was in her 60s.

Should I start one? And look at Beth and Dog. Beth's running the show. Right. And Sneaky Pete. That's a TV show. She was. Yeah.

The female-run bail bond. Oh, yeah. Sneaky Pete. So it's very equal opportunity. That part we got to applaud. I like that. Okay. Well, it's still very present.

It's been deemed unlawful in Illinois, Kentucky, Oregon, and Wisconsin. Oh. There are no bail bonds. No cash. Yeah, no cash bail outlawed. And it's being talked about. I might be wrong on this. There's been some sort of decision made to take it out in California as well.

I'm surprised of those specific states. Kentucky, I would assume they would love it. I got to say one thing, though, also to defend Ron, because we love him. I do love Ron. I'm conflicted. I love him. Weirdly, I don't think that was a dig at California. I think that was a dig at New York.

Because, you know, in New York, they decided they weren't going to arrest people who stole things that were under like $30. And people were just going into CVS and fucking just taking everything they wanted. I completely missed that reference. Yes. And they have to lock everything up. And I'm with Ron. Yeah. Fuck that.

I don't want you to be able to walk into CVS, grab anything you want that's under 14 bucks, and you can't be arrested for it. He would have been talking about that. Wait, why? He said California. He didn't. He said like other states who have decided

they're not going to arrest people. I think he did other states. Did he say California? He did not. I bet a million dollars. We gotta listen. Now we gotta listen. We gotta get a bail bondsman. You I bet a million dollars. We gotta listen. Now we gotta listen. We gotta get bail bonds, man.

You owe me a million dollars. Well, no, we only have to put down a hundred thousand. Nope. You owe me the full mill. Okay. And I don't owe you anything. He just said other states. Okay.

I'm just going to go through my script. I'm going to see what he said. He did say California. Yes. I knew it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I fucking knew it. He said Oklahoma is still a state that believes you shouldn't go and steal someone else's

property, unlike California and places like that. He said Oklahoma is still a state that believes you shouldn't go and steal someone else's property, unlike California and places like that. You owe me a million dollars. You mean I owe you an additional million dollars? Yeah, you do. You owe me a million dollars for that. Okay. Wow.

Okay. Yeah. So it is being discussed and it is being fiercely debated. I think COVID set it back. There were a lot of states that were working towards getting rid of cash bail. And then COVID happened and there was a bunch of crime and they rethought things. And it's now being walked back. It's a very adjacent issue with same-day loans.

And in fact, those buildings are always directly next door. They absolutely are. It's their places. I mean, that's the thing that feels bad about it. They door. They absolutely are. It's their places. I mean, that's the thing that feels bad about it. They're praying on poor people. It's born out of desperation. Like you're desperate and you go there and you don't have money. And most of your clients are poor.

Yeah. And you're making $15 billion on poor people. That's rough. It's pretty rough. Yeah. I don't think you should go into it, Monica. We'll see. Once I have the million dollars from DAX, I'll put that into starting my biz.

Okay, the last part of my little journey was looking into the history of where bail bonds came from in the first place, which wasn't America. I was curious where this idea came from, this idea of a bail bondsman. Ron had told me that the notion of a bail bond is something that goes back to the 11th or 12th century in England. The idea was, when someone was charged with an offence, instead of keeping them locked up in a moldy dungeon, they'd put up something of value until a magistrate could come around and have a hearing. Sometimes trials could be years away, so why wait in a dungeon the whole time? But as the system faded out everywhere else, America truly grabbed onto it. The first American bail bond was put up 125 years ago in 1898. I'm back talking to Ali Preston from the Center for American Progress.

When this practice was moved to the United States, unlike in the countries it was in before, people were really dispersed around the country. We were expanding through colonization across the United States. So it was much harder to keep track of people. And people didn't have the same financial or family institutions and communities to sort of band together and get money. So it really was just there was a need and an industry came in to fill it. But the history of the industry really goes back. And from the start, it was always really a predatory industry. Ali, like many Americans, wants to see the practice of having to pay for your freedom done away with entirely. People just don't understand

bail enough to really understand its far-reaching impacts and to be able to see the fundamental unfairness in the system. The most obvious unfairness is that the cash bail system favors those with money. As in, if you have money, you pay your bail, you go free, great. But if you don't have money, you go to the bail bondsman and suddenly there are fees and payment plans and your house is on the line. You dig your own hole more and more. Under current cash bail systems, the only thing that is the determining

factor between release and pretrial detention is money. And so it doesn't matter what resources you have when you're released. If you're safe to be in the community, if you have money, you can pay to get your release. There is a lot of fear surrounding what's going to happen if we don't have bail. But it's important to know that 95% of crime in this country is nonviolent. So most people who go through the system are safe to remain in the community pretrial. And so just sort of changing our understanding of who's involved in the system and what actually makes us safe is really important. I guess the reason so many grip onto the idea of cash bail, and I get it, is that it incentivizes people to turn up to court. That with no cash on the line, the criminals will just run for the

hills. But the thing is, statistically, that's not really true. Well, there's actually not really evidence that shows that signing cash bail is effective, ensuring people show up to court. And there's a lot of evidence that shows that you don't need it at all. And so it's really was never meant to be a tool to promote safety. It was really just to ensure you showed up for court. And so many jurisdictions have already implemented reforms that don't require you to pay money up front. And we still have really high levels of court appearance. And this is really because the idea that people are not showing up to court, and it's because people are intentionally trying to not be prosecuted, is a myth. So why do some people miss their court appearance? The answer is a lot more boring than

you imagine it is. It's not because they're on the run being a fugitive. It's just because people are people, flawed creatures with lives and drama and problems. Most people who don't show up to court, it's just because they're human. They couldn't get transportation to get there. They didn't have child care or they just simply forgot. And so it's really important that we have a system that acknowledges that people are people and that we're not going to just punish people because they forgot or there were circumstances outside of their control that prevented them from getting to court. Illinois abolished cash bail entirely back in 2021. Kentucky, Oregon and Wisconsin have done away with the use of bail

bondsmen. And there's debate going on in other states about what to do. From what I can tell, the different states that have moved away from cash bail have all taken different approaches. It's not a one-glove-fits-all approach. There's often additional levels of accountability and more thorough examinations of each person's individual factors that really determine how can we ensure that if this person is released, we have the best chance of protecting community safety and the best chance of ensuring that they show up to court. My time in Oklahoma is coming to an end and it's time to go back to LA. I've decided I want to stop by and say goodbye to Ron the Balesbondsman,

a man who hates LA. I don't love that Ron's job exists, but I really like Ron. And I'm just about at his office when I notice a giant building leave me next door with tiny slats for windows. It looked like the worst apartment building I'd ever seen. Then I realize Ron's bail bonds office is right next to a prison. Perfect. As I walk by, a young guy emerges, clutching a phone and trailing a charger. And I realize he just got out. What does it feel like getting out? It feels good, good, good.

The jail's horrible, I'll let you know that. There's bedbugs everywhere. Honestly, some of the staff, they're good. They're there to, I'll let you know that. There's bedbugs everywhere. Honestly, some of the staff, they're good. They're there to help and all this other stuff. And then there's some that are straight assholes that ain't going to try to help you. Like I went days without a cover and I asked them and they told me straight up no. Nothing. Nothing. So you're just in there freezing. Freezing. He tells me he wants to go to a bar. And so I pull up some bars on my phone and point him in the right direction. I'd assumed he'd want a drink.

The only reason I'm looking for the bar is because they have Wi-Fi and a place I can charge my phone. I put this guy in his mid-twenties. He's young and tells me he's ping-ponged in and out of prison a few times now. But I'm happy to get out of jail. Yeah. What are your plans now? My plans now is to go back home to Durant.

Durant is about a two and a half hour drive away. His dad's coming to pick him up, which is why he needs his phone to call him. He's had a rough time in there, he says. Rough on him, and he was rough on others. I've been to different jails and stuff, but this jail, it mentally and physically tears you down to where you lose it.

A week ago, I lost it. I got in a fight with somebody, got moved to lock up, and it was bad. I talked to one of the persons that was in the same area I was in. They said they had to cover his face and everything. And I don't remember it. All I know is he hit me and I blacked out. It sounds bad. And I sort of admire him, at least for acknowledging what he did.

Before I got arrested to now, all I've been trying to do is go home. And now that I got the chance to go home, I'm going home. He goes on his way off to the bar to charge his phone and call his dad to pick him up. And I go and knock on the door of Ron Eden's bail bonds office one last time. I've been thinking about how he got this business from his mum when she was in her 60s, and now he's 82, and he told me he had no one to pass it on to, and frankly, it was stressing me out. He seemed happy enough to see me again,

and gave me advice on where to visit in America next. If you go into the Dakotas, you want to go to what's known as the Badlands. We talked for about 30 minutes and as I said goodbye, I had one final question. And since I saw you last, any luck in finding someone to take over this spot? Probably.

Yeah. Ron's gone all quiet, but his eyes have flicked to his colleague who was eating a sandwich last time. Maybe he hasn't told him yet. Yeah, I think I'll keep working on it. This news makes me happy. I feel like Ron deserves to retire. He's had a good run at this bail bondsman thing.

It seems like a really tough business for him, and of course his clients who he's worked with for decades. Those paying to secure their freedom while they wait to be found guilty or not guilty those using a system you don't really think about until you're forced to use it i guess there's a happy ending for ron eden's business i think he's found someone to take over a buyer sounded like yeah his colleague i think he's going to hand it over to him. Well, we don't know.

And in case that sandwich boy is listening, we don't know. We don't know. And just don't get too excited. Don't get too excited. Okay. But he sounded like he had sort of his eyes flicked over discreetly to his colleague. Like, I don't want to speak about it. I don't want to speak about it now.

Okay. But I think I've got some ideas. You think the guy eating the sandwich is getting the place. Yeah. Yeah, his little eyes are flicking over to him. So yeah, I think that felt really like closure. That's really sweet. I'm really glad I ran back to see him. Yeah, Ron and me, I used to go to the

Badlands. We're going to the Dakotas. The Badlands. I liked meeting Ron. He did make me think he didn't seem like an asshole. He was filling a hole and he was doing the best that he could in that space. Well, everyone has a justification for everything they do. Even if it was something bad.

I mean, we've talked about this before with paparazzi. I mean, obviously, I think they're despicable, but I know that they've created a justification For sure that Warrants them doing that So everyone does that to an extent I just he felt like he was Really he kept listing you know Parents grandparents

It felt like he did like Sons daughters What you were talking about earlier Dex They didn't really give a shit about you when you walked in I feel like if you walk into Ron's office, he does sort of care. He wants you to get a good outcome. And I think he understands that he's in a system that isn't great. I think he's someone you would describe as firm but fair.

He's definitely a law and order man. That was quite clear. Yeah, for sure. He doesn't want this place to run like either of the coasts. He hates California. I'm pretty encouraged to smoke dope and steal. Yeah, for sure. He doesn't want this place to run like either of the coasts. He hates California. I'm here to encourage a smoke dope and steal. Yeah, totally. I imagine him to look like an older J.K. Simmons.

Oh, okay. That's actually not far off. Really? That's actually not far off. Yeah. Yeah, he was weathered. He had good eyes. Oh.

Yeah, I loved him. So, here's Bale Bonds. America and the Philippines. Unique. That was great. It really was. It is such an interesting, bizarre world. I mean, you know more about this than any of us because you've been in there and you've interacted directly in a way. So, it's the perfect episode for you to be here.

Yes, yes. But if you don't think about it, you're never going to walk in there. It's going on, right? It's a thing that's going on. You don't need it. Who cares? Although I will say what you think it is about it you you're never going to walk in there it's just it's going on right it's the thing that's going on you don't need it who cares although i will say what you think it is it is when you look at the outside of the bell bondsman place it is everything you think it is i think the yeah the advertisement matches the product quite well and i think you know it's open at three in the morning i mean i walked into a few of them at that time in the morning i think they're busiest then actually yeah no. It's when all the bars get out and people, a few of them said that bars get out, people get into fights and accidents and that's when they pop off.

I think in Good Will Hunting, Chucky pays for the bail. Is Chucky? Ben Affleck. Ben, okay. I don't think they have to go to a bail bonds. Oh, he's just got these flush with the cash. He's with the cash Wow

It's a good thing we didn't have to put up any property Because we were renting Brie and I Would you have done that? Absolutely not I almost didn't drive down there because I was like just sleep it off They're going to let you out in the morning But I love this person and they were scared Can you just walk into the jail

And immediately pay and leave Is there a version where you never have to enter the cell? No, I think you're going to have to always. You're incarcerated first. Yeah, yeah. You get booked. They get the fingerprints, the picture. So today, Monica, don't think about driving drunk.

I'm not. I don't do it. You don't. I don't think you do. I really don't. I don't want anyone to think that. You die. I agree.

But I also think a few times in your life you've probably been over the legal limit. As I think most people who, you know. A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, what do you think one martini? Because martinis are strong. You have to like look up your body weight and, you know, I think food is part of the equation. You know what you should do?

Breath lasers are cheap. You should get one and just see where you're at. I am curious. After two glasses of wine. It's a really good idea, just so you know. Right. Yeah. I mean, this is, we were so bad.

We were such terrible people. But a lot of people have breath analyzers as a, just to see who blew the most. Oh, it's a competition? Yeah, it's like someone at the bar would have one. Make Mike blow. I bet he's a fucking 1-4

oh my god they weren't using it for the reason that you would want to it's awful it's very funny it's horrible and it's just very

I would never think of that this like competition amongst you all I have buddies who had the breathalyzer on their car and they couldn't start it you know the car

wouldn't start unless they blew and then they'd have their neighbor come over and blow yeah of course BWBB messy out there boys know B-boys and they couldn't start it. You know, the car wouldn't start unless they blew it and then they'd have their neighbor come over and blow it. Yeah, of course. BWBB.

Messy out there. Boys will be boys. I have some girls too. If I ever get behind bars here in America, I like to think I'd call you three. I would love to. And I'm so close. Before it was a drive from Santa Monica to Hollywood.

That was rough. Where is the jail? What if his jail is in Santa Monica or Venice? He'll have to call a West Side Friend. I'd sooner fly to Oklahoma to help him than to drive to Santa Monica to help him. I'm more American.

Less American. More and you taught us a lot. Love you guys. That was so fun. Alright, well, happy America. Happy America. Love you guys. Bye.