Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: Chocolate

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

This week on Flightless Bird, David Farrier investigates why American chocolate tastes so different to New Zealand chocolate and more specifically, why Hershey’s chocolate allegedly smells a little bit like vomit. Farrier talks to a former Hershey’s worker to try and get to the truth, learning about various theories, and stumbling on an old rivalry between Hershey’s and Mars. David finds himself talking to flavour expert Barb Stuckey, author of TASTE: Surprising Stories & Science About Why Food Tastes Good. Does he find the answer? Perhaps you need to let your tastebuds decide. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Just quickly before we get into today's episode, after this episode we're taking a break for about a month because I'm going to New Zealand for a little holiday. The flightless bird returns. I'm going to try and record some audio while I'm there. I always like recording reverse flightless birds. But yeah, so we will be back in August. In the meantime, enjoy this episode. I'm David Ferrier.

In New Zealand I accidentally marooned in America and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Since I've been in America I've had to come to terms with America's chocolate. Let me be very clear American chocolate is a lot different to non-American chocolate and I'm finding it very hard to make the adjustment. Putting it simply, to my taste buds, New Zealand chocolate just tastes way better. Putting it bluntly, American chocolate tastes bad. I wondered if I was the only one thinking this, considering the North American chocolate market is valued at a whopping $40 billion.

Then I got a message, it was in my DMs on Instagram, it said, American chocolate is shit. The smell of puke when you open a bag of Hershey's kisses. Vomit emoji. I looked at that vomit emoji and I felt seen. He was a random internet user that understood my dilemma Why does American chocolate taste like puke? So get ready to open a Mars bar a Snickers the Hershey's chocolate kiss because this is the chocolate episode Fly this, fly this, fly this bird touchdown in America. I'm a fly this bird touchdown in America.

Oh, god. Are we going to get sued? No. It's fine. We'll be safe. Big chocolate's going to come for you. Big chocolate. Yeah, this is.

I'm a bit worried. Yeah, this is a bit worried Yeah, look as long as we say occasionally alleged we're gonna be fine Alleged is the key thing you say a statement that could be defamatory. Oh, what just happened? What just happened this water tastes bad or I thought you got a hair in your coffee or something Okay, maybe do a little wash. Do you want me to get you a water? No. Do you want me to wash it out?

I thought maybe you got a hair in your coffee or something. Yeah, it looked like a hair. You were pulling it out. That's not what it was. That's how I feel when I taste American chocolate. Oh God. Disgusting. Okay. Awful.

Tell me what you on first taste, you taste vomit? It tastes off. Like what? I need more info. It tastes off. I mean, I've been growing up in the land of luxury. I've been growing up in New Zealand. If I take a trip to New Zealand, whenever I come back,

I will have a suitcase that is just full of New Zealand chocolate. Yes. So I've got Whittaker's in there. That's our main good chocolate right now, I would say. Cadbury used to be our thing, but they changed their recipe a bit. Oh. But once you've tasted New Zealand chocolate, you just don't go back.

But what I find strange is I've occasionally bought you guys New Zealand chocolate. You have. I think for you, that's the disgusting chocolate because you haven't reacted all that well. Well, listen, it definitely wasn't disgusting. It was good. It was very good. But did I think it was astronomically better? No. Did you think it was better, though? This chocolate tastes better than this rancid American stuff I've grown up with.

I really don't remember the last time I've eaten that kind of chocolate. The Halloween candy chocolate. You're not eating it. I haven't eaten that in a long time, but I do love chocolate and I eat a lot of it, but I mainly eat. It'll be in a brownie or something. Well, sure, but even if I eat a bar, it's like a nice bar from Whole Foods. You're an at-market gal. Watching the era one, you're getting a $20 tiny little crumb of chocolate and you're going, delicious. You know I've been eating an Erewhon burrito every day for the past two weeks.

That does not surprise me. So good. Is it good? I had a smoothie from there and it was really good. We should do an Erewhon episode. We have to. Yeah, I think that's a whole other phenomenon. Okay, so I wonder if you did any research on this or if you were just looking at like big chocolate, which I think you were a whole other phenomenon. Okay, so I wonder if you did any research on this

or if you were just looking at like big chocolate, which I think you were. Big chocolate. I wonder how the artisan chocolate compares to New Zealand chocolate. And I bet that's way more comparable, which is why when I tasted yours, it didn't taste extremely good.

You're right, so you haven't been eating the chocolate kisses. You've been in era one, you've been dining on the most luxurious chocolates. Yeah. In America has to offer. So when I come in with my sort of middle of the road, New Zealand chocolate, it tastes sort of similar. So for you, the Whittaker's is equivalent to our big chocolate.

That's the norm. Yeah. God, imagine what a really fancy New Zealand chocolate would taste like. When I go back, I'm gonna go back in about a month and I'm gonna look for some high-end shit. Try to get one. I'm gonna bring it back. $30 plus.

Okay. I can't. Do you agree with the person that wrote in, alleging that when you open a bag of Hershey's chocolate, you were greeted with a smell a little bit like vomit? Well, this is why you should have brought it, because I've never experienced it. I'm an idiot for not bringing props,

because we could have opened it, that would have been such a good podcast. Opening it would have been really good for the show. You would have probably been dry-wretching, because it would have been such an awful smell. No, I've had a bajillion in my life, and I've never thought that. Incredible, okay.

I haven't either. You're American, that's why, you're so used to this is this is what it's like. You don't notice. You know, no different. In Chicago, there's a chocolate factory downtown, and you can smell chocolate throughout the entire city. Oh, heaven. All the time. I wonder if that'll smell like vomit to you.

Look, it is a specific problem that's alleged against Hershey's that it's a particular thing, which is what I get into in the documentary today. I want to get to the bottom of this. Okay. Should we launch in? Let's launch in. I'm curious. I want to know more. It's a journey because chocolate shouldn't smell like vomit. Okay, but- Allegedly. It's also subjective. Yeah. What does your vomit smell like? Well, look, let's get into the dock and we'll find out. We won't find out why my vomit tastes like.

Disgusting. I opened up my Instagram DMs again and read the message that kicked this whole episode off. I got it about three months ago, so I had to do a lot of scrolling. It's always nice to hear from listeners of this show, but this message had really struck me. I felt seen. The smell of puke when you open a bag of Hershey's Kisses vomit emoji.

They had a point, Hershey's did smell to me like some fresh spew, not really really bad spew, not hot meaty spew, but the kind of lighter spew of a small toddler. Why? I went to the Hershey's website and found a list of common inquiries. Which Hershey's chocolates are vegan? Where is it made? How big is a Hershey's bar? Some of the answers were kind of interesting. Like the answer to when was the first Hershey's chocolate bar invented.

Well, the first Hershey's milk chocolate bar was sold in 1900 by Milton S. Hershey. The classic Hershey's milk chocolate bar has been referred to as the Great American Chocolate Bar. But in that whole Q&A there was nothing about the smell of vomit. In fact, the last question listed was, why does Hershey's chocolate taste so good? Their answer to that one, Hershey's has a delicious unique taste because of the farm fresh milk that is used. Hershey's milk chocolate is one of the only milk chocolate brands in the world that still uses fresh milk in its production giving it a distinctive taste. Fresh milk is the last thing I think about when I taste or smell Hershey's chocolate.

And it was around this time I got an email from a Hershey's insider they must have sensed my curiosity through the ether and had gotten in touch there were former Hershey's worker who had a theory about what was going on she said she never signed any NDAs so it was okay to talk. I can hear you so clearly where are we where are you? I'm in New York. This line is the clearest line I've had in a very long time. Let's cut to the chase. You got in touch because you used to work where? I used to work at Hershey. So if you're not familiar, they're one of the biggest manufacturers of chocolate in the United States. And then Mars is the other one. So they're like the big two. It's like Coca-Cola and Pepsi.

Exactly. Most of the chocolate bars in America are made by one of the two, like Kit Kat, Reese's, Hershey, Payday. Those are all made by Hershey and then Snickers, M&M's, those are all made by Mars. Mars was founded 113 years ago in 1911, but Hershey's came a whole 17 years earlier, in 1894. And ever since Hershey's has kept a tight grip on the American sweet tooth. Along the way it's gobbled up other brands, each deal worth hundreds of millions of dollars. It bought Dotts homestyle pretzels in a deal rumored to be over a billion dollars. I worked in sales. My territory was rural Virginia. So I was going into grocery stores

and convenience stores in rural Virginia and setting up displays and working with the ordering managers to order more product. The way she tells it, Mars was always in the firing line, a battle almost as old as America itself. I mean, there was a lot of drama in the field about the Mars salespeople so like I was encouraged to take Mars product off the shelf and throw it in the garbage and replace it with Hershey product. Crazy stuff like that. Seriously? Yeah. I don't know if they still do it. This was back in 2009. I'm old now.

But the Hershey bars have a clear expiration date on them but the Mars bars don't. If you look at like a Snickers bar or like a bag of M&Ms, they don't have an expiration date on them. It's a code, so you need to know what the code means in order to decipher. And it's not really an expiration, it's a best buy. So we knew what the code was, so if I noticed there was a bunch of Mars product on the shelf that was expired or passed its best buy date, would tell them throw it out and order more of the Hershey product to replace it so it was like the candy wars I should mention just to legally protect myself from flightless bird all of this

is allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly and with that statement I'm reminded of what this episode is all about the mystery of the strange taste the strange odor of Hershey's chocolate tell me what you learned about the flavor of Hershey's and why it's put in the chocolate yes so basically Milton S Hershey was the founder of Hershey chocolate and he I, I believe, was one of the first to start making milk chocolate. They used milk, obviously, in milk chocolate, but refrigerated trucks were not invented or of technology of that time. By the time the trucks got to the factory, the milk was spoiled.

So they were actually producing milk chocolate with spoiled milk, but no one really knew or noticed. Then eventually when refrigerated trucks started being used commercially in the United States, the milk wasn't spoiled anymore and customers noticed the difference and didn't like the way the't spoiled anymore and customers noticed a difference and didn't like the way the chocolate tasted anymore. So according to my source Hershey's did something to make the milk taste spoiled again. Is it spoiled or spoiled?

I'm going with spoiled. I believe in the 80s they developed this flavoring that is an artificial flavor that tastes like spoiled milk. I consulted some other emails I'd gotten over the course of my investigation, all with allegations of this artificial flavoring. I used to work for Hershey's and learned that Hershey bars and many other brands of chocolate are made with a flavoring to mimic spoiled. Red one. So just over time, Americans just slowly learned to love this taste of spoiled milk. Yeah, and I mean, there's a lot of different food items in the US that taste much differently than in other countries, which I'm sure you've experienced as well.

But something was bugging me. All this talk of flavouring being added to mimic putrefying milk. It was all just alleged, a state of mind that was starting to make me feel uneasy. I didn't want alleged, I wanted facts. I did some googling and found an article in the Daily Mail had gone viral years ago claiming that butyric acid is added to Hershey's chocolate. Butyric acid which is also found in rancid butter, parmesan cheese and yes, in vomit. Now the Daily Mail is definitely not trustworthy and it was a headline that was then repeated by the Huffington Post just last year. Reading further down in that Huffington Post piece they had gotten comment from Hershey's who said there'd been a lot of urban legends and

inaccurate and just plain false reporting on the brand's chocolate over the years. Hershey's then outright said they do not add butyric acid to our chocolate. What the hell was going on? There was no denying the smell of spew, the gentle aroma of vomit, but with no added flavoring to cause it, what was happening? I'd have to dig deeper, I'd have to talk to someone deep in the world of flavour. So I know you asked me if I had anyone, you know, any contacts that work in the industry that you could interview and I do but I don't talk to her anymore. Oh, what happened?

We had a major falling out. I was learning in the world of American chocolate, there was drama at nearly every turn. Well, the reason I mentioned that is because she actually went to the Culinary Institute I was learning in the world of American chocolate, there was drama at nearly every turn. Well the reason I mentioned that is because she actually went to the Culinary Institute of America and she specialised in confection so she actually worked in research and development at Mars while I was working in sales at Hershey. This sounded like a perfect contact, but I was never going to get it. What was it over?

A person? A thing? An event? She basically was throwing herself at every male figure in my life sexually and I just could not tolerate it anymore. Allegedly, all allegedly of course. I felt stumped. I didn't know where to turn next. All hope was lost stay tuned for more flightless bird we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors flightless bird is brought to you by Helix now I have been in America for almost three years now and that means almost three years of sleeping on my Helix mattress and I would argue that I am having some of the best sleeps of my life.

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New Zealand is something I'm very familiar with and I would say that social media has made that a lot worse. We all know this because we're now constantly, especially young adults comparing their lives to literally the rest of the planet. It's not the greatest thing to do. They say that comparison is the thief of joy. They do say that. Is it so easy to envy other people's lives. Obviously we both are in therapy.

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Support for Flightless Bird comes from Rocket Money. Now, most Americans think they spend about $62 per month on subscriptions, but the real number is closer to $300. It's insane and it's really hard to keep a track of and it's literally thousands of dollars a year, half of which we're probably completely forgotten about. Now thankfully since I started using Rocket Money they found a bunch of subscriptions I'd completely forgotten about to help me cancel them and I've saved a lot of money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you by up to 20%.

All you have to do is submit a picture of your bill and Rocket Money takes care try to negotiate lower bills for you by up to 20%. All you have to do is submit a picture of your bill and Rocket Money takes care of the rest. They'll deal with the customer service for you. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in cancelled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash bird. That's rocketmoney.com slash bird. Rocketmoney.com slash bird. All these twists and turns happening. There's a lot going on. To be very clear, so far I've discovered nothing is added

to mimic the flavor of spoiled milk. That's a myth that's been going around forever. I think my insider had gotten on board with that myth and was just recounting something that's been told throughout the ages. Right. This idea that something has been added specifically to cause that flavor.

And we know now that's not the truth. Because it was the butyric acid rumour? The butyric acid rumour that that was added. Well, this is interesting because ding ding ding, this morning, before I got here, I was making my tea. Vomited. I did not. But I was making my tea and I make it English style.

Beautiful. So I add milk. How do you make a tea as an American? I'm just curious if it differs to how I'd make it English style. Beautiful. So I add milk. How do you make a tea as an American? I'm just curious if it differs to how I'd make it in New Zealand. Well I use a kettle now. Beautiful. And I let the tea bags steep for about three to five minutes. And I take it out and then I add a little milk.

Great. And then I stir it up. Yeah I do it the impatient way which is like a toddler. I put the tea bag and I slam it around with a spoon, grinding into the sides. To get it squished out. Squished out, terrible. Milk and a bit of sugar, I'm away.

Yeah. Terrible way to make tea. Yeah, you want it to steep. Yeah, got no patience. I don't do sugar in it, but anyway, so when I took out the milk, I always smell it. It's just a habit. As soon as you open it, you smell the milk.

And I was like, huh, maybe on the edge. It was really hard to tell. Did you have an expiry date on the carton? Yes, and I'm not even close. Okay, miles away. The weird thing is that I've noticed about my milk lately is the expiration dates much further.

It used to be like you had like a week. Yeah. So I'm so curious about this. I feel like I've noticed the same thing as well. Yeah. And I don't know what is happening. I don't know what is happening either. Are they just stocking where we're shopping with fresher milk?

So at outlast, like, you know, But you think if it was fresher, it would actually be, you'd have a smaller amount of time normally because there's less like chemicals and preservatives. You're thinking from a chemical perspective. Milk used to be like the expiration date would be like a week. A couple of days away. Yeah. Holy shit. I've got to drink this really quickly.

Yes. So what did you do? Like two months. Your little sniff? Yes, I took a little sniff. I was like, oh God, maybe, but I think it's fine. Maybe it's the refrigerator. So I like moved it into another room and was smelling it as a whole thing. And I ended up putting it in the tea, mixed it up and I didn't drink it. I got too scared. There's nothing worse than the slightly off taste of a dairy product.

I mean, talk about spew. Yeah, it's no good. One of the joys of if you're having oat or almond or all these other milks is the expiry date is years away. Yeah, exactly. That shit can just sit around forever. I know. But anyways, this is all very ding ding dingy because we're talking about spoiled milk. This is so weird to me because I bet Reese's are top three most consumed candy in America.

Oh, huge. No, and that's what I find fascinating. It's popular. It's massive. So I mean, that's what I find so fascinating. Despite this odd smell, let's say it's odd. That's kind of the word that Hershey's would use. Okay, so it's the smell, not a taste or both.

Well, obviously- Well, this is what we're sort of getting into, smell and taste. That's sort of a linked thing, aren't they? If you're smelling a bit of volume, then it's going to factor into the taste a little bit. But you smell it first. It hits me like a brick in the face when I open a bag. Yeah, it's a really odd thing.

And I know I'm not going crazy because I have talked to so many people that have this exact same reaction. Huh. But yeah, so many rumors. I really love that Hershey's is kind of vague in the way they talk about it, but definitely no additive. That's a myth we can throw out. Interesting.

So look, I'm gonna march on with my journey. We gotta get to the bottom of where this bomb comes from. As you'll recall from part one, I'd had a contact dangled in front of me. Someone who'd worked in the world of chocolate R&D at Hershey's biggest competitor, Mars. But as it tends to do sometimes, sex had gotten in the way. What was it over, a person, a thing, an event?

She basically was throwing herself at every male figure in my life sexually and I just could not tolerate it anymore. But I realized all hope was not lost. To get to the bottom of this Hershey's mystery, I'd simply need to find another expert in flavour. It didn't matter if they didn't work for Hershey's or Mars, in fact the answers would be more free of bias if they didn't. I'm Barb Stuckey, I'm the chief innovation and marketing officer at Matson. And we are a Silicon Valley based food and beverage innovation firm.

We work with clients ranging from a guy with an idea to some of the world's largest global companies and we help them come up with new product ideas and then we formulate the products and commercialize them. Bob Stuckey has also written an entire book about flavor and food called Taste, Surprising Stories and Science About Why Food Tastes Good. As I say this, I've just ordered it on Amazon and I can't wait to read it.

How did I end up there? It's a long story, but I was kind of raised in a Chinese restaurant so years and years ago, because I'm quite old now, I hung out in my friend Stacey Chen's parents Chinese restaurant and I just became obsessed with food at a very very early age. Barb was hired at Matson 27 years ago, a job she threw herself into with reckless abandon. I wanted to teach myself everything there was to know about taste and flavour and all the senses.

People think so much about what they enjoy, they know what foods they like, they know what flavours they like, but I think it's very rare for people to think about why they like that thing or how that flavour got to be what it is, right? That is so true. And when I'm teaching my fundamentals of taste class, I like to say that when people eat something and they say they either like it or don't like it, that is judgment. And it has no role in what we do at Mattson

when we're being professional tasters, because what we're trying to do is really think diagnostically about what we're experiencing using all five of our senses. And from that, then we can make decisions on how to make it better. The judgment of, I like it, I don't, it's disgusting, it's great,

that doesn't really help when you're developing a food. So yeah, people don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. I wish they spent more. What do you think is one of the biggest misconceptions that people have about taste? Well, I think people think about taste as something that happens on their tongue. And that is technically true.

It also happens throughout your entire cavity inside your mouth, the back of your throat. But it's not just taste that gives us our experience of food. It's all the other senses together. So when we put food in our mouth, we also experience smell and we also experience texture and you can't separate those things. So that concept of taste, using your taste sense, aroma using your smell sense and texture using your feeling sense.

Those three things come together to form what we call flavor. And flavor is very different than each one of those senses. I actually got really distracted in this interview, and we just talked for ages about her job and what she does. I sort of pictured all the foods I liked, the candy I enjoyed, the chips, the ice cream, and got to thinking about how it ended up so tasty. It's largely thanks to people like Barb.

When we're in the lab creating things, we also talk about layers of flavor and layering flavor on so that you don't have something that's really one dimensional. And the more complicated and more dimensions and more layers and more balance, the more you get to something that is really, really craveable. And that can be in categories from sauce to beverage to chocolate and everything. I mean, even a dish you get at a

restaurant, they've thought really deeply about how those ingredients come together to create this multi-sensory experience that has layers and layers and it comes to you over time. I wondered about who taste-tested new products. She said it depends on the size of the company. A giant company like General Mills or Heinz might get 150 consumers to try a thing at various stages. It might be in a controlled setting around a boardroom table, or some testers might take it home to try it with their family. A smaller company, well, it might just be the boss that tastes it and a couple of their friends.

She said taste buds also vary depending on where in America you live. Generally what you want to do is testing in different market areas because there are subtle nuances between them. In the Southeast, for example, they're much more tolerant of sweetness and you could serve something there and then go up to Seattle and it would bomb because it's too sweet. So it does vary. We talked and we talked, but it was time to get back to my driving central pressing question. Do you have any insight into this whole Hershey's theory that I keep hearing about? Well, first of all, let me confess. I grew up in Northern Maryland, which is just

south of Hershey, Pennsylvania. So I spent my childhood going to Hershey Park and the entire city smells like Hershey chocolate. So it's the chocolate I grew up with. So for me, it's very comforting. But yes, I understand because I do think very diagnostically and technically about flavour. I do understand that there is a very specific flavour in it. What she says next is familiar, a theory I'd heard before. That comes from butyric acid, which is something that comes from the milk, because most of Hershey's chocolate is milk chocolate. So what you get in a Hershey's milk chocolate is you get the cocoa, the sugar, which you

get in other chocolates, but you get a spoiled milk kind of experience. And you're right to say, vomiting. And this is a very, very technical descriptor. So baby vomit, baby spit up, that is often used to describe that butyric acid flavor, which some people call it goaty or animalistic. And it's very pronounced in Hershey. Why in God's name would they inject that particular flavor because everything you've just described to me

it doesn't sound great. Her answer? Well I've been thinking about this a lot and I think it's probably as close to the truth as we're ever going to get. Well I don't think they injected it I think that they kind of cultivated it if you will. If you think about it it's not think that they kind of cultivated it, if you will. If you think about it, it's not that different than making yogurt out of milk. It's just spoiling it a little, so fermenting it a little. And that gives you a unique profile for sure.

It's very ownable. It's very recognizable. You can close your eyes and somebody can put a little Hershey's kiss in your mouth and you know right away, right away that it's Hershey's. Yeah because you had a bit of vomit in your mouth. Yeah, no chunks though, hopefully. To repeat, her theory is that this isn't some flavour that's added as per the Daily Mail's allegations, rather it's just built into the process of making the chocolate.

It comes from the fats in the milk. The story goes that it was done to create a signature flavor, somewhere short of yogurt and sour cream and you get a little bit of that fermenty flavor. And she makes it clear that this signature flavor is still around today because Hershey's and therefore America, they like this flavor. They like this smell. It was the plan all along. Well, maybe not quite the plan. I'm not sure that that's the whole truth, to be honest. I have my own belief that usually things like this in the food world happen because something

went wrong or something went right in a way that nobody really understood. And this is probably about someone who came over from Europe and was making chocolate in a new place with new milk and new cocoa and they just stumbled upon something that seemed to be different and ownable. Maybe that's what this all comes down to, like so many things in life, good and bad, we sort of just stumble onto them. With my questions mostly answered I wondered what decades in the food and flavor industry had

taught Barb and it turns out she's less concerned about the flavors of food including the gentle hint of baby vomit and more about how we're eating food because really who cares about the flavor if we're not even taking the time to truly savor it. My takeaway is that everyone is going to eat food and normally we're just shoveling it in throwing it down our gullet and if you're gonna eat it anyway, don't you want to experience more of what it's bringing to you? More of the sensory experience? So what I wish is that people would slow down and appreciate every bite by really thinking about it, thinking about how it was made,

who made it, where it came from, why I like this or why I don't like this, and what is it giving me, who sacrificed for this. I feel like we'd be more in tune with our food and we'd just get more sensory pleasure out of it and with no additional calories. Stay tuned for more flightless bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. This episode of flightless bird is brought to you by booking.com booking.year. It's finally time for summer travel and I am pumped because I like travelling. I like traveling for myself and I like traveling for this show.

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Okay, wow. So many theories. And look, just quickly, I think it's my theory. Hershey's secretly loves all this. Because this conversation, we're not the first to have it. If you Google this, it's everywhere. And Hershey's never gives a really clear answer. They're always a little bit vague.

Well, of course. And this all kind of like keeps popping up in a really fun way. Well, do you like sour cream? Love sour cream. And do you like yogurt? I guzzle down yogurt. So you do like a fermented taste. I love it. Yeah. Give me fermented everything, but not in my choc. Yeah. I like my choc just to be sugary and cocoaey. No fermentation. That's just me, but other people, and obviously a lot of Americans, disagree. Or we just are used to that.

Yeah, that's what it is. That signature flavor, as they like to call it, which I really love this. That's why they put it. I should also note I did reach out to Hershey's for comment. I gave them a deadline. I said, this is what the episode talks about. I ran past some what they had already told to the Huff Post last year and just zilch nothing. OK.

If Hershey's wants to get in touch, please reach out, because I want to hear from you. Yeah, I mean, I think sort of what we got down to was they have a process of curating their chocolate. Yeah. And in it, there is something they do specifically. It's a process. Bitteric acid, but something in the way they're processing the milk that is creating that taste. Completely.

Yeah, nothing is being added separately to be like, oh, we've got to add this flavor. It just happens naturally in the process. And around that has come up all that other law we heard, like back in the day, they didn't have refrigerated trucks and all that stuff. That's just a theory. It's all theories we don't know. Yeah.

But also I kind of like that they use real milk. Oh, it's great. I'm kind of surprised. I would think with a big company like that, you would not use a real product, you'd use some sort of powder or something. It's the American way, right? Yeah.

I also love the idea that there's, I never really thought about the chocolate wars between those two giant companies. Yeah. That could be a movie. I mean, it's all Netflix doing at the moment, is just making like how these got made things. Yes.

But yeah, I like that there's a chocolate war going on. I like the whole towns in America and areas of towns that just stink of chocolate. yeah, I like that there's a chocolate war going on. I like the whole towns in America and areas of towns that just stink of chocolate. Oh, I wanna live there. I'm jealous of you, Rob. It was pretty great to wake up in the morning and just smell chocolate throughout the city. My God.

Do you think the rates of diabetes in that area would be higher? Because if you wake up. Yeah, that would be good to know. Yeah, and you're smelling sugar, I assume something happens psychologically where you start craving sugar more than others. I wouldn't be able to deal with it.

I mean, I eat so much sweet stuff. I've stopped myself buying chocolate and cookies and stuff at the supermarket, because I've got no off switch. You know this about me. I've eaten stuff that I mean to bring into you sometimes, because I just get greedy and want to eat it. Yeah, the donuts, you keep eating them

before you bring them to people. I also want to admit that I felt a bit guilty when she was saying at the end about savoring food because I'm one of those people, if I could just guzzle my food up through a straw, I would. Really? Yeah, like we have a thing in New Zealand called Complan which is, it's marketed as like, you can live on this. This powder has everything you need.

We have something similar. We have, they're everywhere, right? These like drinks. Mm-hmm. Chocolate Complan in New Zealand, my death row meal. Oh no! Would probably be a fresh Complan and a straw, and I would just slurp that back. I even threw a stage when I was about 13 after school, it was just

comp plan down my gullet. My point is I don't appreciate taking my time with food and, which is I think the opposite to both Rob and yourself because especially like in LA people love that process. I don't have that sophistication. But you like food, right? Yeah, I like eating. I don't like chewing that much. Like, I don't have that sophistication. But you like food, right? Yeah, I like eating. I don't like chewing that much. I don't love it. And to be honest, sometimes you get dinner fatigue in this city, especially because people are always going out.

Which is nice that people want to go and eat and be social. Sometimes I'm like, fuck, I'm sick of sitting around a table waiting for like the entrees, the mains, the dessert. How interesting. Can we get the check? That feeling in America, you've been sitting for four hours at a dinner, you're fucking exhausted, you wanna go home. Wow.

It's like, bring me the check. In Europe, it's times 12. The whole point is when you go to dinner is to be there for a long time. Yeah. They don't bring the check fast, they're not trying to turn tables. In America, it's much faster. You think it's quick. Yeah. They don't bring the check fast. They're not trying to turn tables in America. It's it's much faster.

Yeah. Oh my God, Rob, you had your mouth open there. I've taken you to enough nice dinners. Can you not savor the food? No, I try. I try. And like I see, cause it's like, I feel like when you invite me to a dinner, it's like that feeling when I try and show someone a movie I love. I'm sitting there and I'm just hoping they love it. I'm learning slowly, but in the back of my mind,

I have to be honest Rob, sometimes when I'm sitting at a meal, I'm like, I could have done this in three minutes if it was planned. I could have slept it back. I'd be full. Well, you're missing the point. Right. That's not the point. The point isn't the food. It's the the experience and the people and the you just don't want to talk to your friends. Maybe sometimes I'm anti-social. It's an element of that. But it's also, I don't know, the whole savoring food thing, I think, is a little bit lost to me sometimes. Yeah, that's OK.

Yeah. At least you know it about yourself and you can talk to your therapist about it. When I come back from New Zealand, I'm going to bring fancy chocolate for you both, and I'm going to bring a big box of Complan. That's unnecessary. Maybe for you, you can do that. That's unnecessary. Is it marketed as a weight loss? No, it's not weight loss. My memory of Complan is you can live on this shit. Don't worry about eating, have Compa- like Soylent was the thing here, right, that they went through. That was like a big thing here for a while, right? It sounds like SlimFast is exactly what it sounds like. Oh. Yeah, SlimFast. It drinks, it shakes. Check that out.

Oh my god. But it's- Hello. SlimFast is marketed as a weight loss. Yeah, you drink this instead of having a meal. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, and I'll say for the record, I definitely don't endorse the compound life. We should be eating whole foods, all the way. We absolutely should be. I'm just saying I so easily swing in that terrible direction

if left to my own devices. Cause you just wanna be efficient. Kind of, it's a bit like the board game thing where I get impatient with rules being explained. I think it's impatience. If there's toast in the toaster, I'm always popping it up early to see if it's done. Oh my God. Um, and maybe you do have ADHD.

Oh no, I do. I've been diagnosed. You did get diagnosed. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I went to a clinic and went through all these tests. What do they ask? Just a lot of questions about your day and often to do with like your work and your personal life and task completion.

Interesting. And how you feel emotionally about different things. Huh. So many questions. I should add that here in Los Angeles specifically, it is so easy to get diagnosed. I'd say almost too easy. In New Zealand, it's the opposite

where there are huge waiting queues. It's so expensive to get a diagnosis. So there'll be a ton of people in New Zealand that have ADHD and can't get in front of someone to get any kind of drugs. So yeah, I'm figuring out, I'm experimenting with medications now. I've tried a second one.

It's a matter of getting that balance of the focus, but not too, I guess intense would be the word. But yeah, I'm figuring that out. But yeah, that toast has been popped up. That compound has been sucked back. There's like an efficiency, a timing and impatience. Yeah, I just get a bit agitated easily by waiting, I think. Interesting. I might just be a shitty personality as easily by waiting, I think. Interesting.

I might just be a shitty personality as well. No, oh no, everyone's different, but I do love to savor a meal. Well, maybe savor a Hershey's chocolate kiss next time you get a backup. Maybe when you come back and you bring the New Zealand chocolate, we'll do a blind taste test.

Taste test. Yes. With fancy, fancy American. Fancy American, New Zealand. Fancy New Zealand. That's such a good idea. And big chocolate American. Really, really good.

I love this so much. Okay, we'll do it. Yeah, darling, that's perfect. I reckon when we do that, the Hershey's difference, that unique sort of vibe will be- Will stick out. I had a period of maybe like six weeks when I was 13, where I was fully addicted to Hershey's Kisses. Oh, right. I just like had to have one in my mouth at all times.

Oh, incredible. Yeah. They're a size where it feels like it's not too much, right? It's just a little thing. Yeah. And so you keep kind of having them. And you could kind of let it dissolve a little bit of chewing it. It became an obsession.

I think I had that same phase too. I mean, sugar is addictive, right? Like that's just straight up true. So I'm sure after a few days of me just being like, oh, I'm eating a bunch of these. Then I like could not stop. Yeah. I sort of missed the marketing of the Hershey's Kiss.

Is it like- Very love based Valentine's Day. It is Valentine's-y. Yes. This is a romantic treat for a partner kind of a deal. Even though it looks like a small turd, which is very ironic. Allegedly.

It's allegedly looks like a poo emoji. To me, it looks like a small turd. What's the deal with the wrapping? This little thing at the top that you pull and that pulls the wrapping off? Yeah. Like America, eh? It's so good. Yeah, the Hershey's Kiss.

I am a big fan of the Reese's Piece Butter Cup. I like a peanut buttery thing. Do you like the pieces or the cup? Oh, the big cup. I like that big peanut buttery center. Yum, yum, yum. So it doesn't bother you, the taste? The peanut butter overpowers the baby bomb vibes. And so I'm guzzling that shit up. But again, I can't buy that because I will just eat any chocolate in front of me.

I eat it all. Would you eat a bunch of Hershey's Kisses? You would eat that even though that repulses you? I can do it. I'm just not happy about it. Wow. Calvin's been sneaking chocolate lately, too. It's hezzy. Like yesterday, he went in to get changed into shorts and ate chocolate

and brushed his teeth and came back outside. Do you caught him? Natalie caught him. Yeah. Just chocolate all over his face. I love it, because kids can't quite cover it up. He brushed his teeth to cover it up. Yeah, and then she found a Milky Way in his bed the night before. Oh, where's he getting it?

Wait, where's he getting it? We've got, like, a pantry drawer that's got his, like, candy that he gets on the weekend. Okay, so how did he deal with it when you raised it? Did he go into denial or...? No, he admitted it. He knew he was caught. Oh, he's such a good kid. And did he cry? No, he didn't cry. knew he was caught. Oh, he's such a good kid. And did he cry?

No, he didn't cry. We just had to tell him that he can't do that. Yeah. Wow. I love it when kids, there's so many studies around it, but when they find out that they can lie and that they can change the truth, because it just opens up this whole new world.

Where yeah, I can eat that chocolate and I can just say I didn't. And no one will know and I can keep doing it. And brush my teeth. Yeah. I mean, that was smart. That was smart. Yeah.

It was. Really, really, really smart. Yeah. There's a real pushing of the boundaries that have, you forget as kids, that's the point of being a kid is understanding where the boundaries are. I do wish we could go back in time to our first lie. Oh my God. I wonder what it was.

Cause it would have been this hugely exciting thing to try out. It's the first time you start to bend reality. You're like, I can just create my own version and that's great. Cause I can eat chocolate all the time. Oh. My first lie would have been so lame.

All of them are. I was like, it's true enough. If you're smart. Real badass. Yeah, it's true enough. If you're smart. Real badass. Yeah, I killed my sister. Yours probably had something to do with your tunnel. It would have been the tunnel. Yeah.

Like, have you been digging in the backyard again? Yeah. It's like, got dirt all over you. It's like, no, I haven't been digging. No, I didn't. Oh, my tunnel. You miss it. Yeah, it was like a comfort thing.

It was like just being in a little enclosed space, you know? It's like, I like a weighted blanket. Yeah. You miss it. Yeah. It was like a comfort thing. It was like just being a little enclosed space, you know, it's like I like a weighted blanket. Yeah. That's ADHD. Yeah, probably. I mean, it probably is. All these different things. Yeah. Did you keep chocolate in your tunnel? No, there was no food in there. Because the mice and stuff would find it. Exactly. Yeah, I didn't want a tunnel full of mice. It was a clean tunnel. Because the mice and stuff would find it. Exactly. I didn't want a tunnel full of mice. It was a clean tunnel. Oh, God. Well, this was fun. This was very interesting.

TBD and what's the other acronym? TB, continued, TBC. TBC. To be continued. To be continued with our taste test, yeah. And more American, less American, same. I think we're all more American. We'll learn something yeah big time congratulations