Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: Chutes and Ladders

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

In this week’s Flightless Bird, Farrier sets out to understand why Americans call “Snakes and Ladders” something completely different: “Chutes and Ladders”. Farrier meets with Hasbro’s Brian Baker, senior vice president for board games. Farrier learns the surprising origins of Chutes and Ladders - as well as other popular American board games like Candyland and Monopoly. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now a few weeks ago I was watching some stand-up comedy, and somehow the comedian got to talking about board games, and then they mentioned a game called Shoots and Ladders. If you're an American listening, you're going, yeah, Shoots and Ladders, that game we played as kids. But if you're from New Zealand Zealand or a bunch of other countries, you're going, what the heck is Shoots and Ladders? Because in New Zealand, we call it

Snakes and Ladders. I couldn't concentrate on the comedy routine anymore because all I could think about was Americans insisting on calling Snakes and Ladders by the totally bonkers name Shoots and Ladders. And so on today's Flightless Bird, I attempt to find out more about the name of this American board game which takes me down a rabbit hole of board game craziness I never knew existed. So get ready to roll that die and vanquish your opponents because this is the Shoots and Ladders episode. Fly this, fly this, fly this bird touchdown in America. I'm a fly this bird touchdown in America. Doesn't get more exciting than this board games.

I love board games. You're a board game gal. I am. You have a stack over here. Yeah. So as I made this episode, different companies, they saw their payday. They're like, finally, we're going to get famous. We're going to be on flight this bird.

And they started sending board games. They did? You know, we've got Monopoly here. No, Monopoly Knockout. Of course, Shoots and Ladders. That's different. There's all sorts. These are all free.

Wait, how did they know that you were doing this? I reached out. I was trying to get to the bottom of this mystery. This shoots and ladders thing threw me. I was like, what are you talking about? You're having a stroke on stage. It's snakes and ladders because you hit the snake, the snake bites you, you slide down the snake

and then you climb up the ladder. A shoot, that's so lame. What the hell? Boring. I want to get bitten by a snake. Okay. I fear this is going to be math maths all over again. It's a culture war.

First of all, I never want to get bit by a snake. I'm never playing snakes in ladders. I'm not sure about one of your big fears. Yes. Also, I don't remember in shoots and ladders, it wasn't scary like that. There's no biting, you just land on a bad spot. Yeah, look, we get into this in the dock around why this is this huge branding difference, because it is a huge branding difference. I was never aware of. I thought board games were just universally all the same thing, but they're clearly not.

Are there more that are different? There's so many things that are different. What did you grow up playing and are you a cheater? This is such a good question. No. Okay. Oh, wow. I hate playing board games with cheaters.

Yeah. Or any type of game and it always happens and they're always like, it's a game. Yeah, lighten that moniker. It's just a game. Oh, it's like when people say, can't you take a joke? And I want to murder people who say that. What I said to Rosabelle when I cracked the egg on her head. I was like, Rosabelle, take a joke.

It's just an egg. And she was like, ah, don't do that. You made it so much worse by saying take a joke. It is one of the most irritating things you can hear. It's bad. Yeah, it's really bad. OK, so I play Monopoly, Scrabble, which I see over there. I love, I still love Scrabble. We played a

ton of games in college. Did you play Uno? Yep. Love Uno. Yeah. I don't know. This is a slight, it's actually, it's a tiny, tiny spoiler for the Jinx. There's a great scene where Robert Duras is on the stand. He's sort of regaling you with all his childhood stories about his parents and his relationship. And he's got this great story about how they're playing UNO together. And then the prosecutor comes in to do his cross and he's like, are you telling me that happened in like 72? And Durst is like, yeah. And he's like, UNO wasn't even invented in 72. It's like, oh, it's this big moment.

Oh, fuck. It's really good. He's such a liar and a cheater. When you're lying, just be careful what board games or card games you're talking about. I guess so. Are you a cheater? No, I'm honest. It's my Christian upbringing.

It made me, it was forced onto me, these morals, and now I'm so guilt-ridden if I cheat. Okay, I see that. But when people do things like roll the die and instead of going like one, two, three, they'll count sometimes on their spaces one and sometimes the next space is one because they're counting out where they want to land. No, that's not. That shit winds me up. No, that is horrible.

Who are you playing with? Oh, I mean- People. People do this. Fairl family. Yeah, Fairl. Fairl family. Have you played Catan?

Now I'm into adult games are also so fun. Yeah, now we get into this a bit as well. And I will just say, I can't do them. My brain won't allow me to learn the rules for complicated board games. Do you think you're just getting overwhelmed because I don't think it's as complicated as you think. Yeah, I think you're right.

Catan I think is one that I could play. But whenever someone has sat down, if someone starts explaining rules to me, it's not because I don't want to play, it's just my brain, it is overwhelmed. Yeah. And I'm just like, I don't know, I don't understand. And I just freak out and I shut down. And then you cry and you run away.

Internally, yeah, I kind of do. It's bad. Okay, well, next time, here's a hack. I think the best way to learn how to play a game is to just start playing it. I agree. If someone's starting to just rant off a bunch of rules, there's no way to remember that. You have to just kind of play one or two games as sort of like open and asking questions, and then you'll get it. And it's so fun.

What's the context of where you would play mostly? Was it with your family growing up? Do you occasionally bring out a board game ever now, or is this in your distant past? Oh, I play games as an adult much more than I played as a kid. All right, okay. I was never with my family, I don't think. With friends, I guess we'd play. Bonding.

Shoots and like Candyland. I learned about Candyland for the first time. Huge. Don't have that in New Zealand. Also, what you don't have over there is life. Oh, what's that? The game of life. And it's- Does that teach you about like morals and stuff? Is that what it is? Or is it- No.

It's kind of just like Candyland, but with a different map. No, but it's not. And you're rolling. Okay. Spinner. Well, no, you have a job, you pick a job, you build a family, you have this little car. You build a family, you have this little car. You've got a little family, you've got a little car. Yeah. So it's like you're living your life as an American.

And you're moving through it. That would have been a good one actually for you to do because it is an American life. Part two. Part two. Rob, you have children. Do you play board games with them? Yeah, we were a big board game family growing up too and cards. We played like phase 10 a lot.

And my grandpa was a bridge player until the end, in his like 90s, he was winning bridge tournaments. Oh, it keeps you sharp. Yeah. Any cheaters in your family? No, we had too much game etiquette thrown in our faces from early age. Yeah, right.

Card etiquette of like, you can't flip the cards over until everyone's got theirs dealt. Brush your cards. Yeah. Oh my God, so intense. Yeah. Okay, I'm glad you take this seriously. Alright, this is what I found out.

Hearing all that talk of shoots and ladders at the comedy show sent me into a spin. Afterwards, I sat down at home in front of my laptop and Googled it immediately, just to make sure I wasn't losing my mind. Here's a game about climbing up and sliding down. to my laptop and googled it immediately, just to make sure I wasn't losing my mind. A bunch of American ads from the 80s proved I hadn't been hearing things, and I realised I'd crossed into the upside down of the United States where board games have different names. I needed answers and I needed them quick, so I decided to talk to one man I knew could explain things, a top dog of board games. So my name is Brian Baker. I'm the Senior Vice President of Board Games at Hasbro. I

lead the team that designs and develops and markets and ultimately produces some of the biggest most popular board games in the world. Most importantly, Hasbro is the company responsible for shoots and ladders. The company's story starts back in 1923 when three Polish Jewish brothers, Herm and Henry and Halal, founded the Hassanfield brothers on Rhode Island. And by the time World War II came around in 1942, Halal had left and Henry was in charge, pivoting the company into toys. Specifically, doctor and nurse toys for kids, possibly something to do with World War II going on. As the Second World War raged on, the company helped both rescue and employ Jews,

and they kept growing, getting their first giant hit in 1952 with Mr. Potato Head. In the 60s, G.I. Joe became their big thing. Today, Hasbro's toy empire is vast. G.I. Joe, Power Rangers, Furbies, Nerf Guns, Twister, My Little Pony, Pepper Pig. And of course, they do board games. So, so many board games. Which is where Senior Vice President of of board games Brian Baker comes in So I went to college actually to study mechanical engineering and one of the things that really inspired me to

Study things that kind of move and contraptions and mechanical things was the game mousetrap So if you remember the game mousetrap that was kind of like a Rube Goldberg machine You catch the little mouse love that game growing up. So I went and studied mechanical engineering, but I also had a creative side. So I'd love to draw, I love to sculpt. So I got a minor in fine art. So an interesting blend of engineering and the arts. And then I went and got a business degree. And out of college, I spent about three years at a product design consulting firm in the Pacific Northwest called Ziba Design. Ziba in Farsi means beautiful. It was almost like an advanced degree on designing any kind of product. I worked on ice cream makers and consumer electronics and medical devices and things like that.

And ultimately, I came out of that and worked for Nike for 17 years designing shoes. So I worked in the innovation organization and worked with athletes, global football players, American football players, football, baseball, and spent most of my career there making those products. And it just came time to move on and I was tired of looking at feet and wanted to work on something different. And Hasbro gave me a call and offered me this role.

And ironically, out of college, I had applied to all the toy companies. That was always a dream of mine, but none of them would give me the time of day. What was the most surprising thing for you? Was there something sort of unexpected when it came to board games and your role there? What I didn't realize is that most of those games

that everybody grew up with and that were so popular were actually invented by people outside of the company. And at the time, whether it was Milton Bradley or Parker Brothers, these inventors would bring their ideas to these companies, and who would ultimately evaluate the games and decide whether or not they were going to publish them. I was under the impression that there

was an internal design team in the company who was inventing all of these things. Now, don't get me wrong. There is plenty of designers. We have game designers and illustrators and writers here at Hasbro that help publish the games, but many of the most popular board games are actually conceived by outside inventors, and we license those concepts and then ultimately pay those inventors royalties for their inventions. That's the case with so many products. Mr. Potato Head, who I mentioned earlier, it's not like Hasbro invented him.

They just brought the rights from an American inventor called George Lerner. That deal almost didn't happen because George had just sold Mr. Potato Head to a cereal company for $5,000. But luckily for George, when Hasbro made their better offer, he bought the rights back for $7,000, then sold it on to Hasbro. This brings us back to Shoots and Ladders, whose story goes back way further than Mr. Potato Head. So we're going to have to go back in time a little bit because there is an interesting story behind

all of this. So the original Snakes and Ladders was created what we think is an ancient India. The original name of the game was Maksha Padam. So in Sanskrit, Maksha means rise and Padam means fall. And so that's where you get the ladders and the snakes. And the game was created by a 13th century Indian poet and saint. His name is Gyan Dev. And it was a way to teach children moral lessons because the game emphasizes the impact of cause and effect. So the ladders were virtues and the snakes were vices. When we talk about game mechanics, what's interesting about Snakes and Ladders

and the original version, because they're both the same, is that there are more snakes than there are ladders, meaning it's more difficult to be virtuous and good in the world. And so that was the idea behind the game. And once you got to the final square, it was a point of spiritual liberation. for Back to Square One, but that

still doesn't explain why it's called Shoots and Ladders when the rest of the world calls it the original Snakes and Ladders. Snakes and Ladders was the original version. It was published in 1943 by Milton Bradley. They just decided to change the theme and the landscape to a playground and change it to Shoots and Ladders simply because they felt snakes would be too frightening for small children. We make this game literally for ages three and up and so the idea of getting bitten by a snake and the vices and the virtues was probably too much

for them. So Shoots and Ladders is where we landed. I wondered what other games are called different things here and it turns out loads of them. Like in New Zealand we have a game called Cluedo, apparently here in America it's just Clue. There's a couple of other games that get their origin in India, but the other game that has a different name you may know, at least in the UK and England, it's called Cluedo. Here in the United States, it's a massively popular game. We call it Clue. It was invented by a guy named Anthony Pratt in England during World War II. So during the air raids, he was living in Birmingham, England. He was a pianist and he would play piano at these lavish country estates while these wealthy English families were hosting murder mystery parties. And he loved the idea of the murder mystery parties and conceived

of this game while hiding out during the air raids. Pluto is such a bitter name. So that actually came from combining two words. So obviously clue and then ludo. Ludo in latin means I play. Ludo is also another famous game that's inspired by Pachisi or Parchisi, which is a simple game where each player tries to move their tokens around the board before the other players do. And Pachisi or Ludo, those also originated in ancient India and has spawned like a number of other games. So other versions of that game are also the game called Trouble. So we call that Trouble in the United States. In Great Britain, that's called Frustration. If you go to Finland, the same game is called Kimball. So Ludo led to Cluedo, sorry Clue,

and to another Hasbro game called Sorry. Are there any games that have taken off in America that haven't taken off or it's been a struggle to get them taking off in other territories or vice versa things that have popped off elsewhere that America just doesn't get? So the most popular board game for preschoolers next to maybe checkers is Candyland. So Candyland is an extremely popular board game in America. What is Candyland? So Candyland was invented in 1948 by a woman named Eleanor Abbott. So she was a school teacher who was in a hospital recovering from polio.

And she was surrounded by all of these children who are also recovering from polio. And they were hooked up to these iron lungs. They had nowhere to go, nowhere to be. And so she invented the game Candyland to kind of inspire them and take them out of their misery at the hospital. And what Candyland is, so you take the form of a character, in this case, it's a gingerbread person,

and you follow a path through a magical world that has all kinds of crazy characters. So you have King Candy, you have Queen Frostine, you have a number of other kind of illustrated characters, and it's a fantasy land. And you go through the Gumdrop Forest and all sorts of different places. And it was meant to just create an imaginative escape

for these poor children who are recovering from polio. And so it's been around forever. It was published by Milton Bradley in 1948. We still make it today. And for American children, it's oftentimes their first board game. Now, why isn't it adopted widely in other parts of the world? And we have some hypotheses about this. There's some that tell us that it's because the association with candy could promote poor nutrition and obesity amongst young children. So we're working on that, David. We see a huge opportunity there to

take our most popular first game for kids and get it in the hands of other players. I feel like we'll probably eventually see the origin story of Candyland turned into some kind of inspiring Netflix show. They can do it with Pop Tarts. They can do it with Candyland. It's so strange what translates and what doesn't, what's deemed fit for kids and what isn't. I mean snakes are so scary they apparently change them to boring old shoots, and yet America is also responsible for the most terrifying, stressful game on earth. Talking about the idea of snakes scaring American children, you look at a game like Operation, which has always fascinated me so much.

It's terrifying. You know, you're literally pulling out organs and trying not to make this patient endure any kind of pain. Yeah, there's a couple of games that induce anxiety, I think, from kids, maybe in a good way. But with Operation, that's one that you've touched on. I'll give you a little bit of a sneak peek, David, because we are redesigning Operation for next year. So we have a new version that's available for 2025. And if the current version didn't

give you enough anxiety, the new version we've introduced, and I talk about innovation that makes the games more modern and fresh and gives you a reason to buy the new one, is we have a new emergency mode. So if you remember in the game, when you do touch the sides with the tweezers, the person's nose lights up and buzzes red. So when you push and hold down the button on his nose, it goes into emergency mode and you have 30 seconds to remove as many of those ailments as you possibly can before time runs out. Whose diabolical idea was that?

Was that some drunk employee texting you at 1am in the morning? How did you get to that idea? So that's the creativity of our game designers. They look at these games, especially they watch kids play the games, and that inspires them to create different versions. And so what we found is that kids got bored with the game if they played it two, three, four times in a row. So we want to give them other opportunities to come back and play with different versions. What does make a good game? Because you know, you've got to have the

obviously the idea, but then the mechanics need to be so well balanced. Exactly. And you touched on the most important thing, which are the mechanics. So is the actual structure of the game engaging and replayable, meaning the same person with the same strategy doesn't win every single time? That's just not a fun game. And so we make sure that mechanics are balanced. Ideally, those mechanics are simple, which results in simple rules that are easy to teach

and easy to learn to get more people playing. But the thing that people don't often realize is that there's a huge importance on aesthetics, so graphic design and user interface, especially with card games. So as we're presenting information to these players, they can quickly recognize what's on the cards and be able to make decisions that are dependent on the game. And then the other piece obviously is the narrative or the story that's kind of wrapped around the game. There's

some abstract card games that don't have stories at all, it's symbols and numbers, but many of the games that people love to play have characters and storytelling. Think about Candyland or Clue that bring people back and keep it fresh and fun. I started to wonder how American board games are, and it turns out they're pretty American. Brian says the US represents about half of their business. He says outside of the US, Germany is really the heart of board game culture. He says he has a lot of respect for the types of games Germany produces. But when it comes to America, there's one game, and one game alone that's truly American,

that speaks to the heart of American culture, that taps into the lifeblood of the USA. Capitalism. When you think quintessential American game, what springs to mind for you? One word, monopoly. It's America, right? Yeah, obviously, and that was one game that was invented in the United States. It has 99% global awareness, meaning 99 of 100 people will tell you they've heard the word monopoly and it's referring to the game. So we're really proud of that. Interestingly, the original American version of Monopoly is set in Atlantic City. But as you go around the world and you see different versions, all of those versions have been localized with local streets and local names. So for example, in the know, they don't have boardwalk, they have

Mayfair. Back in New Zealand, you have streets like Queen Street and Lambton Quay. Sitting next to me as I type this, I have Jurassic Park Monopoly, where streets have been replaced with dinosaur names. And maybe that's the magic, why Monopoly is endured, it's just endlessly adaptable to where people live or what they're interested in. I mean there's even a ding ding ding, Costco Monopoly. It helps explain why Monopoly turns 90 next year. Chances are, Monopoly will outlive all of us. What is it about Monopoly that's had that cut through? Because it's also a game that people rage over and get into family fights over

as well. What's kept it so popular? I think the rage, the family fights, the competition, the fact that all is fair in Monopoly is what makes it so much fun. I think especially for families, Monopoly gives kids permission to just act ruthlessly, especially with their parents. They're taking money, they're making them go bankrupt. And then the thing that we live for is the moment where somebody gets so frustrated that they flip the board over and the pieces and the money go everywhere. Because the mechanics of Monopoly are simple and fun, but there is a point in time where you know you're not going to win. And you're probably looking at another 15 to 30 minutes of gameplay where you're just losing the entire time. I also feel it's a game where like, I might be completely wrong on this, but I feel like people cheekily cheat on Monopoly more than other board games.

Yes, there's definitely a culture around cheating. Just because we write the rules and we include them in the game doesn't mean people read them or follow them. But we know there's things like your role is six and you move five, nobody's gonna notice that. Sometimes you may not pay the full rent. Sometimes people slip a few bucks out of the bank. There's all kinds of ways you can cheat in Monopoly. And I think that's just part of the personality of the game. And it's almost expected. Yeah.

You should not say it's expected. That's dangerous to say. And anyone listening to this does not have permission to cheat. I feel it does have the association right. I feel like I've never had a Monopoly game where someone hasn't at some point tried something on. And maybe this is just my friends and my family. You mean try to cheat anything?

Try to cheat. Yeah. I feel like it just never doesn't happen. Monopoly is almost, you're always, I think it's because you've got money flying around, different things on the board. Go to jail, get out of jail free. How many times you've gone around the board before you can get out of jail? No. People take advantage.

I hate your friends. I hate my friends, too. I hate everyone who's doing this. I also- Just start cheating. Give it a go. No. It's like a new gameplay technique. The reason I don't is because if I win, I don't feel like I won. Yeah, you feel riddled with guilt.

It's not even guilt, it's just, that wasn't real. So it doesn't feel as good. I like a pure victory. So if you're- do you do escape rooms? Love. So if you're in an escape room, if someone hits the clue button, do you get really annoyed? You know, sometimes in those rooms there's a button that'll give you a clue because that's kind of like cheating. And I've got a friend that says if you hit any

of those buttons, cannot be proud of anything you've achieved in there because you haven't actually figured it out. Okay, I disagree with that. But I also think no one can just hit the clue button. You have to talk to everyone first. Everyone has to decide. I've got a friend that will just get so frustrated, they'll hit it without any permission. Oh my. And the clue is suddenly broadcast to the room. Oh my God.

Your life is wild. The people you invite in are wild. I love it. I love this episode. This is making me so excited to play a game. I forgot a huge part, but was just reminded that fights are prominent, eminent. They're pretty much a given for me.

Right. I get very, you get boisterous. I do. Dax and I have had major fights during Catan. Oh, incredible. When we used to play before spades, Jess, Kristen, Dax, and I played Catan, like, every night. Oh, that was the pre-Spades game? Yes. Okay. And we played it so much.

It was so fun. So what was happening? What was creating these? We just would get in huge fights. Would it start slow and escalate? Or was it one big event and you would just fly into a rage and kind of pounce? I think it built over time. He felt like we, I mean, I can't speak for him. He's not here, but so maybe that's for part two, but- He allegedly felt. I think he allegedly felt like people would gang up, but then he himself would also gang up.

Allegedly. Allegedly. And he won a lot. And so I think he thought he was like, allegedly, like we were trying to take him down. Yeah. I don't know. But this genuinely became, because there is that thing where there's a play fight and then you reach, and me and my friend Dan, Dan will reach a point, not necessarily board games, he'll do something. And I just fucking hate him. I want to smash his head in. And I'm like, how did it jump from this fun we're having to proper caveman rage? Well, it becomes about people's actual personalities and their actual flaws and faults.

And that's when it hits a new level. And that's like the cheating thing, right? So I'm playing with someone and then they're cheating a bunch. I could view it as, oh, it's so silly. This is like such a silly game. It's fun. They don't think of it as important.

But for me, it becomes you don't give a fuck about rules in this life and you don't respect me. Yeah. And you're remembering these other things that have happened in your actual life. Yeah. And I'm like, you're a cheater. Yes. But again, the board is essentially this big metaphor.

It is. Isn't it? It is. And also you're playing out these grand things. I mean, Qatar, you're conquering other countries and stuff. The whole world. And because usually I think you can kind of cover up your personality flaws kind of easily, but in board games, if they're at the surface. Yeah. That's what it is. That's why I hate doing so much from those times.

How do you guys feel about opposite where it's like people that take the rules too seriously and are constantly enforcing it? Oh, that's a good point. They're like, rural Nazi. It can get irritating at times if you're having like a good flow and someone is just coming in there and going, baa baa baa. That is annoying. I think it's annoying.

I'm sure I've been that person. I think I have too. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, everyone just has to be on the exact same page of the vibe. And almost never everyone's on the exact same page. Yeah. Well, usually when that happens, like someone does it and then everyone becomes the police and it starts snowballing. You're right. Someone tries to get something over someone else.

They called it on you. So now you're going to be extra aggressive on rules back. Exactly. Exactly. There's always that tragic moment in any game where someone goes for like the rules and they get them out and start reading them trying to find one. Oh God. You know that's when shit's going wrong. That part's really bad. We've been there. And I think Monopoly is obviously so well known and the branding is great and the game is so good.

But I also think what makes people fight over it, I would argue, and I've got nothing to base this on, but I think probably some of the mechanics are quite bad and that's what makes people fight because suddenly it does swing out of control in a really ridiculous way that actually makes the game bad for so many people. Like it feels so imbalanced. It's flawed, yeah, it's a flawed game and I think that's why it has succeeded because it comes attached with all this rage and emotion. And there's no better feeling when you are blitzing everyone else that when you get those two key properties, you've got all your houses and you upgrade them to hotels and you're just annihilating

people of different ages. You know, your parents, you can take your parents down. Or when the big debate over whether a game is luck or strategy, that depends on how well you're doing. If you're doing well, you're like, it's strategy. It's so true. And if you're doing poorly, it's luck. It's so fun. I love games.

I also really like that so many of these had their origins in India. That's kind of amazing. I feel very proud. Yeah, I mean, you are responsible for shoots and ladders. I am, personally. Which I would call snakes and ladders. And that made sense what they said about it being too scary and too lofty.

Yeah, I love that. Yes, snakes and they had to start it is like a karma game. It's a karma game. It's really incredible. Calvin did just get his first game of operation this last weekend. Oh, you should have waited until the new one. That one looks fun. You got a Star Wars version.

Oh, what are you doing? It's gears new one. That one looks fun. You got a Star Wars version. Oh, what are you doing? It's gears and stuff in a robot instead of- Oh, that's less scary. I think it's seeing that little happy human face shining out of you. It was really stressful. And that buzzer noise? Yeah. Oh my God, it's so, so stressful.

So good. All right. For the next part of this little doc, I dived into some of the more complicated games. OK, well, hold on real quick. I do want to say this person you spoke to, amazing. Also, I'm so jealous of him. What a life. Oh, Brian was listing off the things he had done.

And I'm just like, you have this incredible career. Incredible. Just casually designing shoes at Nike and obviously like a big design brain. Yes, how awesome. Yeah. Yeah. He was good as well because a lot of these episodes I do reach out, I try and get the top dogs. Most of them, they're like, we don't need to do that. We're already successful. We don't need to be on a podcast. They don't understand podcasts. And he knew his stuff. I wasn't expecting to learn all these things about the origins of these games, like why we call Cluedo. Yeah. Cluedo. Just kind of crazy. He was great. Yeah, he was great and I won his life.

Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. This episode of Flightless Bird is brought to you by booking.com, booking.year. It's finally time for summer travel and I am pumped because I like traveling. I like traveling for myself and I like traveling for this show. Yes, it is so fun.

I do get very excited about summer travel. Which is the best. Which is your favorite place to travel to in America that's not going home? Like where would you, New York? New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I am gonna go back in the summer. Very exciting. Booking.com offers so many possibilities across the US for all the

travellers you want to be. Booking.com's wide breadth of places to stay across the US make booking whoever you want to be this summer. So, so easy from family friendly vacation homes to picturesque villas. There are so many great choices on Booking.com. So what are you waiting for this summer? You can book whoever you want to be on Booking. That's really hard to do. That was my New Year's resolution and I have not done it. Yeah. So, I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone

and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and

I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone and I'm going to go back to my phone occasionally to read books. That is something to be proud of. That's really hard to do. That was my New Year's resolution and I have not done it. Yeah. So I have nothing to be proud of. I need to talk to my therapist about this.

You really do. When life goes so fast, it's important to take a moment to celebrate those wins though, like reading a book, and to make adjustments for the rest of the year. Therapy can help you take stock of your progress and set achievable goals for the next six months. With therapy, I've found the main thing it's taught me here is to just slow down, sit in feelings.

I always just think feelings get away from them, but I'm learning to sit in them and to figure out what's going on. And not just to run away like a child. That's huge. You shouldn't judge your feelings on feelings. There's a reason you have feelings on feelings. So it's okay, but it's good to make changes.

If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's all online. It's designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to whatever your schedule is. You just fill in a brief questionnaire, you get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge.

Take a moment, visit betterhelp.com slash Burrard today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash Burrard. Alright this is the more complicated side of board games. As I've been thinking more about board games, I started to wonder why we're still playing them. What do you think it is about board games that endures in a time when there's a million highly addictive cell phone games and video games? It's such a tactile, old fashionedfashioned way of playing. What is it

about the board game that prevails, do you think? Yeah, I think you touched on one of the most important things, what I call the soul of board games, which is the feeling of rolling dice, shuffling and dealing cards, moving a pawn around the board. That's really hard to recreate in a digital space. You know, again, our biggest competition are obviously digital games and video games. And with those, the interface is just pushing buttons or moving a controller. You lose a little bit of that.

And I think probably even more important than that is the connection between players. It creates connection between other friends, family, sometimes in some cases, people who don't know each other. And it gives them a reason and it facilitates stronger relationships. And I think ultimately, when people plan a game night or want to share a game together, it's just a more interactive, engaging experience than sitting and watching a

movie or standing next to each other and watching a concert or watching a sporting event. I figured at this point, I should probably go and talk to some people who are really into board games, who do game nights. Luckily for me, a flightless bird listener called Marissa had reached out, saying that her and her friends were doing a games night. So I joined them, five friends and a cat in their apartment, bonding over a board game. How did you all meet each other? So Francis Gu and I went to college together. What college?

Boston University, for music, back in the day, not that long ago, like 10 years ago. But we started playing games weekly. We'd play games in between practice sessions. The first game that we learned is actually here. It's this crunchy game called Cribbage. And it's a card game with a board that a lot of old New Englanders play. Tonight isn't about Cribbage, they're playing something new. What's this game you're playing? It's called Root. It's published by Leader Games.

Oh it's beautiful. It's a beautiful game, yeah it's really really cool. Let's play with the vanilla map. The vanilla map? Yeah, it's designed by Cole Worley and art by Kyle Farron. The artwork on the board in front of them is really beautiful, clearly a lot of efforts As he spoke, my mind starts to drift, and I am reminded of a time that I tried to play a game like this. Back in New Zealand, my friend Eddie was carefully trying to explain the rules to me, but none of them were going in. As time went by I grew frustrated. Then I just got angry.

It's hard to explain if you haven't tried to play a more complicated board game, but I've played it hundreds of times, I've explained it, I don't know, maybe like 10 or something. It's hard to explain if you haven't tried to play a more complicated board game, but I think there are two kinds of people in this world. Those that love having rules explained to them, and those that are almost immune to hearing them. We can't comprehend them. In one ear and out the other. Jason understands my pain.

This is very new, it's gonna take me some time. Jason is newest to our group, and we love his presence here. Jason understands my pain. I do have to talk at you for like 25-30 minutes. I'm really sorry. I wish I didn't have to, but it's just kind of the way it goes. At least I'm not teaching you Monopoly, which isn't a fun game to play. Like this is a fun game to play, I promise. I wasn't convinced. Give me Monopoly any day of the week. Pretty self-explanatory, right? Different factions have different buildings that they can build, and those are marked in the little square spots. Look, I won't take you through all of our night let's just say the rules went on for a long long time as did the game everyone there was loving it I was just trying to understand it and I was struggling for me it's like sitting down and like doing

a puzzle or doing a crossword or likeoku, something like that, but there's this whole world that you're kind of entering into with art and mechanics and then there's also the social aspect. If you're a little shy, break out a board game and it's fun. I actually left Marissa and her friends before they'd finished. It was a long game as I said. She emailed me the next day telling me that Jason, the guy who also struggled listening to all those rules, had won. He was the newest addition to the group and he'd won. Maybe there is hope for me in the board game world. But despite not being a board game guy, I've come to appreciate that behind all of these board games is a story. Like that Shoots and Ladders didn't

start as Shoots and Ladders. It was was always snakes and ladders until America came along. Even Monopoly has a weird story, in that it didn't start life as this sort of ode to capitalism, it can be traced back to the early 1900s when a woman called Lizzie Maggi created a game that was meant to educate American kids about how bad it was to concentrate land in private monopolies, Monopoly started as being anti-monopoly. And the stories behind all these games? That's what Brian from Hasbro appreciates as well. You'd ask me the first question was what was the thing you didn't expect the most? I would say behind every single one of these titles there is a crazy imaginative creative personality,

somebody who had a wacky idea and put it down on paper or made a prototype and had the courage to show it to someone. And that extends from Clue to Candyland to Operation. We have the original Operation prototype here in our lobby. And all it is is a block of steel with a channel cut into it. There's nothing about a patient or an operating room or tweezers at that point.

So there's a whole nother documentary on just understanding the personalities of some of these inventors. Pretty cool, right? So cool. I love this. Maybe you should do a doc, like a real doc on this type of person. What I want to do, I want to do a documentary where there's a famous American surgeon and he's so good at surgery and then you're like, how did you get so good? And it was just as

a kid, he was just playing so much operation. Oh. And he was so good at operation. Yeah. And that's it. And then, and that's the end of the movie, role credits. Wow. I think you'll be able to sell that. It could be in Netflix, an inspiring story. Yeah, I do think we elevate creative brains a lot in this culture for sure. But you don't think about a game designer very much. No, I think, no, and you're playing the game. And I guess if a game's good, you're not thinking about it because you're just like, this is amazing. You don't even think about the design of it.

But someone's put so much effort in to nailing it down. I did in middle school or something. I had an assignment. We had to create a board game. I love this. I think I didn't do a good job. What do you remember the theme or? I wish I remembered the theme. But I think I just basically did like a shoot and lad.

You know, I just like replicated. Yeah, you're moving around the board. Drama's happening along the way. I think that's been an assignment like three times for me too. And maybe it's an American thing. Notice we never had that at my school. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a smart assignment because it is trying to get people thinking creatively, but also in a structure, balancing both. That's why games are fun. Most things are happening.

What's the game you play where you've got little faces up in front of you and you're trying to guess who your person is? Oh, I love that. Guess who? Guess who? Do you ever play adult guess who? No. Adult guess who is you would say, would this person be a singer-songwriter at La La's?

You make it more adulty. Yeah, I see. He did actually, yeah, Brian talked a bit about some of the adult board games that they do, because that is a whole other genre of games. And I think one of them is based on that Fuck Marry Kill game. Oh, yeah, I love that game. It's sort of based around that concept. But also, like, that's an example of something, the rules for a game can be so basic and it can be so fun.

Yeah. Like that, fuck, marry, kill game is so fun to play. Okay. Fuck, marry, kill. Salmon. Shrimp. Salmon. Oh, okay.

Salmon. I see. Salmon, shrimp. Crab. Crab. I'm marrying the salmon. Okay. Fucking the crab.

Oh, sure. Shrimp. You're killing. I think so. There's too many moving little crackly bits. I'm worried about, I don't like it. Even the crab has cracklies. Yeah, but I'm fucking it.

So that's fine. More fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. You're dominating it. Yeah, I actually wanna dominate that fucking crab, you know. Yeah, great. You do learn a lot. You do learn a lot about peeps.

What's the next board game you're going to play? You two. Can you imagine it? You're going to be playing Operation with your son. We play the hat game a lot. What's the hat game? You write phrases and words on cards and it's three rounds. Oh, it's like celebrity. Maybe. OK, but it's not celebrities. It can be it like celebrity? Maybe. Okay, explain.

But it's not celebrities, it can be like anything. A movie title, I've played that at your place. Yeah, and we've played versions where it's like, be as gross as you want with it. And it's the definition of Santorum. Right, is it the rounds are say anything, then charades, then one word? Okay, yeah, that's celebrity, same game.

But you just put in celebrities' names in the hat. It's really so fun. We need to come up with a game and make millions of dollars out of it. I would love that. Do you play New York Times games? No, I don't do Sudoku, I don't do crosswords. My brain isn't wired for it.

I'm not good at pub quizzes. I think you're doing self-fulfilling prophecy on this. Maybe maybe it's just like an internal thing where I'm just too freaked out by it now. Because I do think it's a muscle. Okay. What one should I start with? Connections. It's so fun.

Okay. Have you played Codenames? Oh, I love Codenames. Codenames is good too. Oh my god, there's so many games. There are so many, I love it. I'm going on a trip for 4th of July. I do think we'll play code names.

It's a good in-person game. Yeah. We did it a lot during the pandemic, too. There was an online version so you could do it on Zoom. I'm going to gift you this game, Monica, because I know you mentioned you like the Katani kinds of ones. And this one is apparently Life in Ritera. Life in Ritera. The community rebuilding game. Apparently it's really good.

It's by Eric Emling and Ken Gruehl. Community rebuilding game. And this is a naughty adult game, which I'm gonna give to you, Rob. It's called, and this is the one that was based on Black Mary Kill, it's called Fork Milk Kidnap. Wait, can we play? FMK but more F'd play, I want us to play a couple rounds of that. Yeah we should play a round of this right now.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm already getting intimidated by all of this means. Okay so we've got four stacks of cards in this Fork Milk Kidnap game. They're marked A, B and C. I'm already feeling anxious at figuring out what I meant to do with these. Okay, there's action cards and there's object cards. Give each player a set

of letter cards and A, B and a C. Okay, so we've all got a set of cards, A, B and C. And also, okay, so we each get a number, one, two, three. We're getting these little like tiles. Okay, so we each get a number one, two, three. We're getting these little like tiles. Okay. Grab a stack of action cards, black, shuffle them and place the deck. No, I can't shuffle and place the deck face down to the, honestly, my brain is already doing its thing. It's okay.

I'm okay. You're going to be okay. Grab a stack of action cards, black, shuffle them and place the deck face down to the left of the number cards. Grab a stack of object cards, those are the blue ones, shuffle them, thank you Rob, and place the deck face down to the right of the letter cards. Okay, we need a round keeper. The round keeper has to flip over three action cards on to the number cards in the middle. All right, so we've got some actions now.

Let's read them. Okay, so number one. Pull the plug on. Number two. Braid the pubes of. Oh my god. Number three. Lubricate. Sorry, I think he's losing it already. Okay, now we're going to flip the object cards over onto the letters. And so A is Lizzo. B, that bitch who can pull off low rise jeans. And C, the whole damn Brady Bunch. Very American. This is hilarious. OK.

OK. Now three. Starting with the Round Keeper, who I think can be Rob. All players secretly decide which object letter you would pair with each action number. Who would you stab with a cocktail fork? That horny troll, honest Abe, or your own mother? How do you win?

Starting with the Round Keeper, take, revealing all three of your pairings, explain your reasoning, expect some banter and judgment. Now score. Players have the same three pairings, same letter order, form a majority score, one point each. Take a card from the box as a point. No. This is too complicated. Spade, music, up. card from the box as a point. This is too complicated. This is way too complicated for something that is simple. Yeah, simple game has gotten crazy.

All right, Rob, I'm glad you were gifted this one because I'm against it. I also feel like my position has been partly validated of how scary rules can be and intimidating. Well, they're trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be, and that part I have a beef with. But I do think we could answer these. Okay, Rob goes first. Oh, good. I'm gonna braid the pubes of the whole damn Brady Bunch.

Oh, okay. I'm gonna lubricate Lizzo. Ooh. And pull the plug on that bitch who can pull off low-rise jeans. You don't like the girls that can pull off low-rise jeans? Well, I'm not gonna kill Lizzo and pull the plug on that bitch who can pull off low rise jeans. You don't like the girls that can pull off low rise jeans? Well I'm not gonna kill Lizzo, she's a person. That's true, she's an American treasure.

And I feel like it'd be inappropriate if I wanted to lubricate the low rise jean woman. Yeah. But we know that's really what you wanna do. God, this is lying already. This is the judgment, lying already, wow. All right David, you're up. God. This is lying already. Lying already. Wow. All right, David, you're up. You revealed yourself.

I'll pull the plug on the whole damn Brady Bunch, because I don't really care anything about them because I didn't grow up with them. I'm going to lubricate that bitch. Yeah, you're being honest. Yeah, and I'm going to braid the pubes of Lizzie. OK, I'm going to braid the pubes of this. OK, I'm going to. I like the Brady Bunch. I also you can't braid the pubes of the Brady Bunch because there's children

and you can't lubricate them, actually. So I don't think there's any ethical or moral choice. I hate to say I'm on. I'm going to pick David's. I picked David's. So I guess we won. And I'm officially the most American I've ever been. Exactly. Wow.

This was fun. Good job, team. Thank you. Just let's remember that there's a great origin story for every game that you play and go and enjoy playing board games. Keep playing games. It makes us young. It makes us angry. It makes us angry. It makes us angry. It's all the things we need. Helps us process our emotions in an honest way.

All right. Bye. Bye. Bye.