Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: Exotic Pets

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

In this week's Flightless Bird, David Farrier sets out to understand Florida’s obsession with exotic pets. Why does the sunshine state have more exotic animal species than any other state and, quite possibly, than any other country? David discovers that there are about 50 different reptile species now thriving in Florida - most of them imports. With that in mind, he explores the Burmese python, an escaped imported creature that is now eating alligators out in the Everglades, taking the position of top dog in the ecosystem. David wants to find out what happens to Florida’s unwanted exotic pets, visiting the Everglades Outpost in Homestead to meet skunks, foxes, and wolves - plus the odd goat, lion, and giraffe. He ends his trip by meeting Snakes, an exotic snake dealer who is dealing with the law changes in Florida. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now one thing I've found out, much to Monica's utter horror, is that America really loves pets. One day an animal lives with its own kind, and the next it lives in a house with a bunch of humans. Over 60 million American households have a pet. There are about 76 million pet dogs here in the U.S. and 58 million cats,

7 million birds, and about a million horses. But one state has chosen to one-up the rest of the U.S. when it comes to pets. This highly venomous cobra escaped from an Ocala home. Five years later, the potentially deadly snake has never been found. Florida has more exotic animal species than any other state, and quite possibly than any other country. Even when you look at just reptiles alone, there are about 50 different species now thriving in Florida, most of them imports. Then there's all the other stuff people get their hands on, some of which ends up escaping. That cobra is among hundreds of captive animals that have escaped from Florida homes and zoos in recent years. It was getting so out of hand,

Florida recently banned the ownership of certain reptiles and snakes. But things are still pretty wild. But how wild exactly? I need to find out. So grab your nearest axolotl, skunk or blue-tongued lizard and get ready to make it your best friend. Because this is the Exotic Pets episode. Did you say axolotl?

Axolotl. What's that? Axolotl. It's those little, they live in a tank and they've got legs. Is this like charades? Like, I don't get confused. They look like God was on day five or six of creation and was kind of like running out of animal ideas i'll show you

a photo axelotl i have literally never heard of that okay you need to see my entire 35 years this could be the animal for you i think i know what your birthday present's going to be. Wait, is it? Look how cute this is. I'm handing you my phone. Okay. Googled Axolotl. Ew! Oh, weird. It looks like one of the cute creatures you'd get in Guardians of the Galaxy.

It does. Ew. Isn't it beautiful? So it's sort of like- Oh, it's salamander-esque. Salamander adjacent. You don't like it? I mean, I like pink things, and it is pink.

To be honest- But why does its eyes and face look so cartoonish? Yeah, they're like a cute little cartoon. And the Floridians love them. And because they- do they eat people? They don't eat people. It's tiny. It's not the size of a cow or something.

It's like the tiniest thing. To be honest, I wanted to do exotic pets for Flightless Bird on this road trip in Florida. But I know that your relationship with animals that we humans like to sort of round up and sort of keep in our homes for our own sort of enjoyment. Sure, pets. A bit repulsive. Pets. Yeah, and so I kind of just really wanted to hash it out and figure out what's in a column that might be okay, what isn't. And also I went to David Sedaris, who's obviously a guest on your show multiple times.

Rob took me along. Great. He was amazing, by the way. I'm so ignorant in that I didn't know him before listening to him on your show. Very funny. The whole show was great. Near perfect. G gets to the end, always a disastrous thing to do.

I guess we know this from your shows sometimes, any show. Q&A time. You can curate the most beautiful show of all time, a great performance, and then you throw it out to a crowd that's probably been drinking. Yes. Deep, deep fans of David Sedaris. Yes.

But he lives for that shit that's why it works he handled it okay what happened so just quickly the worst question was a woman who was incredibly intoxicated and gave a big speech about how her husband who she had brought along was the biggest fan of all time had all his books but is much too shy to ask a question so therefore i'm going to peer pressure him now to ask the question so therefore i'm going to peer pressure him now to ask the question publicly i don't think she wanted like a chant from the audience oh god it was horrible anyway he handled that like a pro sort of shut the whole thing down but the best moment was someone said what is your favorite dog breed oh and that set off a very sort

of charming answer from him but it basically ended with him saying the best dog is a dead dog, which was just so funny. And it's such a, obviously, deeply offensive to me who loves dogs, but the funniest thing on the planet. And I just thought of you, who doesn't want to kill dogs. I don't. I'm going to make that clear. But is not their biggest fan. And he just did it in such a charming way. So when he said the only good dog is a dead dog, the entire audience just lost it because it was such a funny premise god he gets

away with absolute murder and i love it he does and i was thinking about this as well because there's a way in which one person could say something and it's offensive and someone else says and he was saying the whole night oh yeah and is that sort of his yeah and we've dissected it a little bit on armchair or tried to of how is he able to do this and i mean i think there are a lot of explanations but a part of it is when you're that funny yeah it just reigns supreme also he does not give a fuck he doesn't care if people are mad he doesn't care if he's quote canceled. I mean, he pushes things to the extreme, which is the whole concept, but he does it in the build and kind of makes you understand what he's doing.

So by the time he delivers it, you just can't be offended. Plus he's in these comically giant shorts on stage. He told us about the shorts before and I'm so sad I didn't get to see the shorts. They were really, he looked like a cartoon. Yeah. And he's a small man, but being in these giant shorts made him look even tinier. And you just can't be offended by someone like that. No, I love them so much.

You know, I thought of you with the dog thing. Thank you. It was very funny. Okay, so this is the scenario I'll put out there. Okay. If you were trapped on an island. Okay. And you had no human companions, it was just you, but the plane that you went down with

had an animal. What would the one animal be that you would want on the island? Not for food. Right. Can't eat it. Can't. For companionship, just to look at a nice thing and go and maybe occasionally give it a little pat on the head. I can't believe you're putting me in this position.

I would pick a dog dog okay this is incredible i know look you made me say it you made me say it because they are good companions they love you yeah every day you wake up on the island and they're happy to see you yeah that'd be nice oh that's so nice plus i don't think i would have to pick up after it because if we're the only two people on the island like i, I'm fine with who am I picking up shit for. I like when the boat finally finds you. It's just you on this island of dog shit. The whole island is full of shit.

And you've just got this little corner that's, like, clean for you to sleep on. You're like, thank God you've come here. Finally. Yeah, so do you've come here. Finally. Yes. So do you want to learn about some exotic pets? Yeah. My journey into Florida. I'm anxious about this because the people who own exotic pets,

I do have a lot of feelings about. I was super curious about this as well, because I spent most of my lockdown, like the rest of the world watching Tiger King. And that was a reminder of when it goes wrong. Someone just rescued recently, of my lockdown like the rest of the world watching Tiger King. Exactly. And that was a reminder of when it goes wrong. Someone just rescued recently, Animal Rescue, a massive croc that someone in Washington had been keeping in their basement. No.

They got it as a tiny little baby and were keeping it as a pet. And then it grew and it grew. And they didn't know what to do with it. So this poor thing was just in someone's basement. So I guess Fish and Wildlife came over and rescued it. Oh my God. Imagine having that in the basement. But is that person getting arrested?

No, weirdly. There was a quote in there from the agency that did the rescue and they said they're not going to prosecute because they said it's better that people want to come forward with the animals that they're keeping and give them up as opposed to worrying they'll get arrested and keep them locked up, which I kind of get the logic. Yeah. But also don't keep a massive animal locked up in your basement. Extremely dangerous one. Yeah, it's not good. It needs to be free in a pond. All right.

I'd been thinking back to my time with Steve, the Gladesman. Steve had taken me deep into the depths of the Everglades, which was not so much deep as very, very wide. A giant river bustling with life. Creatures glistening and buzzing and darting around beneath the boat. He'd taken me out in his airboat to teach me about the gladesman life. And along the way, I'd started talking to him about the wildlife. You seem very nonplussed by various creatures out here.

Is there anything you are freaked out by out in these waters? Well, we have four venomous snakes. We have a coral snake. We have the eastern diamondback rattlesnake. We have the cottonmouth. The cottonmouth, you'd be lucky to make it out of here. And that cottonmouth is an aggressive snake. It's the only snake that'll actually, it'll come at you to bite you. Then Steve also told me about another creature that's multiplying out here at an alarming rate. A pet that got loose and got loose with a load of eggs and is going

haywire out here. The Burmese python. It's a boa constrictor. It started years ago when people started letting them go after as pets. What really took off is back in 1992, we had Hurricane Andrew and I'm from Homestead and we had a bunch of tourist attractions, you know, snake farms and shows and stuff. When the hurricane came through, it just flattened them all. So after that that they're multiplying faster than we can get rid of them. Steve told me that in the last two years he's managed to catch about 130 of these boa constrictors also known as the Burmese python. The Burmese python started their life in Florida as pets or zoo attractions but they got loose and they got big. I mean, they're not venomous, you know, but the bad part is they're really big. They average around 9 to 12 foot is most of the sizes we catch them.

The 17 footer, that's the biggest one we've caught. So take me through. You're out here motoring around. You see one of those things. You don't want it in here. You want to get rid of it. What do you do? I generally just jump off the boat and grab wherever I can so I

can get the snake out. The state, if you apply, they'll pay you. It's like $75 or $100 up to five foot. Every foot after that is an additional $25. They'll also pay for the eggs. If this podcast doesn't work out, I guess I could go and forge a career catching pythons. $75 to $100 a foot. And on some of these snakes, according to recent news reports, there are a lot of feet. 215 pounds and 18 feet long. Hunters caught this massive Burmese python full of eggs. These snakes are invasive, though,

and they cause problems for Florida's ecosystem. You're not worried about the constricting nature of the snakes at all? No, not really. Unless he's like that 17 footer. It actually took five of us to get him in the boat. Sometimes I can only see like a piece of him. So I just grab them. They're not poisonous. They will bite you, but it's nothing you have to go to hospital over. So whatever I got to do to remove them. Now, if I see one that's 17 foot, I have to call for backup, get someone to help me. But I can catch 12, 13 footers. I caught two 12 footers right there in the same spot, and had them both, one in each hand.

Steve told me that one Burmese python can eat around 1,000 mammals and lay around 100 eggs. When Steve was a kid, it used to be alligators that were the top dogs out here. Now it's the python. Back on land, I couldn't stop thinking about this, this pet that got loose. I go to visit the head reptile handler in a place called Alligator Park. And from what Jackson tells me, I wonder if Steve was underselling the problem. And the more time that goes on, we're just finding them bigger and bigger and bigger. And its last meal found in the stomach were deer hoofs. You got to think, these snakes are very aggressive.

Most of our natural wildlife is fearful, even the American alligator. But the Burmese python will stand its ground. It's very aggressive. You can find all these snake hunters getting bit by them, them guarding their nest. They'll have anywhere from 80 to 120 teeth, depending on the size of them. While the alligator only has 80,

but the downfall is because it's a restrictor or a coiler, it latches on, starts to squeeze, and once the alligator's mouth is subdued, it can then eat it. They say within the next 10 years, the alligator won't be the apex predator. The apex predator will be the python. And the python likes it here in Florida for the same reason all the old people like it here.

It's warm. They're cold-blooded. In their natural environment, they're used to things being about 44 degrees Fahrenheit. And 44 degrees Fahrenheit is winter in Florida. The snakes are in heaven, bliss. They're active and they're happy and they're hungry. So they're really thinking the snake is going to stay down here and it is just causing disaster, chaos and havoc. The Burmese python is the poster child for what can go wrong when Florida's exotic pets get loose. What happens when a hurricane floods your garage of

snakes? Or when your big pet gets too big for you? I decided to drive to a place called the Everglades Outpost in Homestead, about an hour south of Miami. It's a non-profit organization that's been around since 1991. So my name is Martha Frasca Rivera, and I am the owner slash curator of the sanctuary. So curator is just a glorified word for pooper scooper. And owner is just a glorified word for someone who has to make sure the taxes are paid. But I am responsible for the daily care of over 100 animals. Martha lives with her husband and kids. We Bought a Zoo comes to mind because this place really does seem like a zoo, but it's mostly populated by pets that had no place else to go. Martha's agreed to show me around to help me get my head around how different pet ownership is in Florida to back in New Zealand. Sergeant and Marble, a goose and a duck, follow us the entire time. They like attention.

A goose and a duck follow us the entire time. They like attention. Martha volunteered here for 10 years and then managed it for four. When the owner passed away, she was the only logical choice to take over. Each day she gets called about a new animal in need of a new home. So I found a baby raccoon and I've had it for three months and it was so friendly and now it wants to bite my face off. Babies are cute and they're always going to be cute all the time. Until they reach sexual maturity and are like, I'm going to kill you. She tells me the most common calls she gets are from people wanting to get rid of their parrots, as well as tortoises, which people buy when they're really tiny but grow into 100 pound units.

which people buy when they're really tiny, but grow into 100-pound units. A lot of the animals we get come from breathers who no longer want to breed them. And then, of course, now they're not making money off of this animal and its babies. So Suki came from a breather. She was pregnant when she arrived. She had Grayson, who's currently hiding behind his igloo because he doesn't like strangers. Suki and Grayson are Japanese snow macaques. Those monkeys you see in photos where they're always sitting in some natural hot springs in Japan, surrounded by snow.

Oh my God, this is a Florida panther. Florida panther. So Simba is going to be moved to the back. Simba's wondering where his treats are because I didn't give him any this morning. This is Sable. She is a Florida panther. She was brought to us when she was a cub. This is Sable. She is a Florida panther. She was brought to us when she was a cub. She was also born and bred under human care, meaning that she isn't a wild Florida panther. So state law is you can't release them. Simba is pacing up and down, purring her head off. I like cats. I like patting them on their little heads and rubbing their fat bellies when they roll over.

But a panther? I'm not sold. Why is it that in Florida people do keep these more exotic pets? Is it still legal to have a pet panther? Unfortunately, yes. That seems mad. Yep. I see this from the back end of it as a sanctuary.

Are there people that are capable of taking excellent care of these type of animals? Yes, there are. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that there are not. Are there far more people that get these type of animals that are incapable of properly caring for them? Absolutely. You know, why would you remove an animal from its owner if they're doing a great job of taking care of it?

I think I would just make the laws stricter. She says you do have to have a permit to own a panther, but in Florida, people find ways to get around that. People buy these animals and then guess what? A year or two later, calling me or calling another sanctuary and saying, hey, I can't have this 400 pound panther or this crocodile or this skunk this macaw, because of X, Y, and Z. You know, Simba, we're his fifth home. He was a case of where if we didn't take him in, he had to be euthanized. I go to look at the website for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission and see there are three classes of wildlife. Class one is the super dangerous stuff. You can't keep them as personal pets.

Rhinos, for example. You need to be a zoo. Class 2 is stuff you can keep as personal pets. A permit's $140 a year. And if you're successful, you can get things like monkeys and giraffes. And class 3 is super wide. You can get a permit for free and when you're 16. And suddenly you can get raccoons, marmosets, tamarins, lemurs, possums, foxes, wallabies and zebras. I know you're not an expert on policy or anything, but why do they suddenly decide that those animals, some lizards and a snake, were illegal and yet everything else is kind of fine to keep as a pet? Because they're dipshits. And you don't have to edit that out. because they're dipshits.

And you don't have to edit that out. We've arrived in front of a bunch of what look like very big dogs. So we do have five wolves. Hi, Raven. You took a mama's. They're class three animals, meaning, yes, they can be a pet here. Just watch your fingers. Oh, they're beautiful.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. So they came from a different facility. That's Raven. Frady's in the front and Aria's the one in the back. And they are sweet. You could probably pick up and take Aria with you. And she would just be like, oh, we're going? Okay, let's go.

They're not as trained as my other wolves are, but we're working on it. What's the difference between a wolf and a dog personality-wise? I feel like we're all scared of wolves. We're not scared of dogs. You don't have to be scared of the wolves. You just have to respect them. I can go in with these guys and they just hang around. However, if I fell to the floor, started bleeding and having a seizure, yeah, they would probably be like, oh, prey? Sure. What's that smell? Is that a bit of skunk wafting over? Yeah, we're going to go see. You can keep skunks as pets here as well. They get deglanded so they can't spray. When they're annoyed, they'll turn their butts to you and just fire blanks.

But they're still a skunk and still have a very strong musk. That never goes away, so people get them as pets, get sick of the musk, and then give them up. We passed Zulu, a zebra. He was owned by a family who wanted to ride him like a horse. But zebras aren't horses, and they're not for riding. Next to Zulu is Kenya, a brown lemur, who's as old as I am. Kenya is our oldest boy here. He's in his 40s.

Zulu's owner removed all his teeth because they didn't want to get bitten. So now he lives here with no teeth. His tongue hangs out to the side, which is what happens when you've got no teeth. His best friend is a rabbit. And there in the next enclosure is Fiona. The skunk I smelt earlier. Next to Fiona, two grey foxes. Fern and Cypress.

They're just turning a year old soon, and they're very sweet, but they are a little skittish. Fern and Cypress are small and lean and fairly slinky. Next door to them is a red fox. It's much fluffier and lets me pat him. There's a porcupine called Susan. I can't pat Susan. It would go badly. She or he? She. She's an African crested porcupine. You can really see the spines, can't you? Yes. They don't shoot them, though. That's just a myth. I look to my left and see a camel leering down at me.

He weighs 2,000 pounds and his name is Chewy. Where did this camel come from? Why do you have a fucking camel? You know, I ask myself that every day. He's 17 now. He was born in 2005 from a camel breeder in florida why was someone breeding camels i couldn't tell you what is the animal that's the hardest to look up to you and say that gives you the most of your time we haven't met her

yet but we will millie our lion she's epileptic she's off display she has seizures they are controlled we do have our medications monica who I do the show with, has epilepsy and has little seizures now and then. She's been the animal I've had to do the most with medically. Also much like Monica, Millie is high maintenance and likes talking. Hi, my love. Tell him. Yes. And then what happened? Come over here, though. There we go. Say hi. Hi. And then what happened? Come over here, though. There we go. Say hi.

Hi. I know. You know, she's super sweet. I'm very comfortable with her, but I understand, obviously, she's still a lion. Like, when I say comfortable, listeners, don't freak out. It's not like I go in there and think she's a toy at all. She's a lion. I fully am aware of that.

Please tell me you can't keep these as pets here. Yes, you can. Millie eats 12 to 15 pounds of food a day. All meat, chicken and pork and steak and fish, with bone, without bone. As I stare at a lion which you can keep as a pet, a tiny house cat walks up called Tiger. Tiger gets close to Millie's enclosure, but not too close. Unhumans weird. Most of us are content with having the smaller one as a pet. Others want the lion. One thing I learned is that both of them, house cat and lion, love nothing more than cramming their big butts into a cardboard box.

I get appliances or big boxes in. Simba, we'll give it to Simba and Simba will sit in them. If I fits, I sits. If it fits, it sits. A rule to live by. As we wrap up our tour of Florida's favorite pets, I tell her about the Burmese pythons I've been hearing about. She tells me that since they all got loose and started breeding here,

they're now illegal to have as pets. Last year, Florida passed legislation that meant a bunch of high-risk reptiles are completely off the table. So now it's illegal to own Burmese pythons, tegus, and iguanas. Okay, I understand the environmental impact that they have. However, what do you think an owner is going to do with their tegu they've had 10 years that they can't get a permit for? Do you think they're going to euthanize it, or do you think they're just going to release it? They're going to release it.

And that's the catch. Lots of owners really care for their pets. They're not all Tiger King maniacs out to make a buck. For some Floridians, a big lizard really is just their best friend. And these new reptile rules have put them in a tricky position. It can be tricky for Martha too, because sanctuaries like hers can't take some of them in because they're not permitted for her.

The only person that can own that particular reptile is the one who got the permit in the first place. Bureaucracy gone a bit mad, Martha and her sanctuary kind of stuck in the middle of it all. She finds herself surrounded by animals she loves, but animals she wishes she never had to look after in the first place. On the way out, we walk past some lizards and snakes, a donkey, and some goats called Sandy, Coconut, Nutella, Clyde, Cookie, and Big Mike. Like many of the animals here, the goats are cheeky and time-consuming.

But Martha says, thankfully, they're not dipshits. Animals are easy. You can tell if they like you, don't like you. You can tell what they need for the most part. Humans are complicated. I'd rather have the easy. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

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You were correct. Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders and two free pillows. For our listeners, go to helixsleep.com slash bird. This is their best offer yet and it won't last long. With Helix, better sleep starts now. I'm with her. Hashtag. Going around that sanctuary and looking at all these animals and going, oh, all of these were once pets, and that's just what people do in florida but i'm definitely gonna push back on you being like the lion no yeah oh yeah what the fuck

an epileptic lion yeah i mean we do have that in common little seizures now and then but i am not high maintenance no who's maintaining me i'm a single woman what are you talking about it was just yeah i look i just saw that lion yeah and i just thought monica two peas in a pod two peas in a pod set them up in a house together i do find lions very majestic and tigers actually But I mean They're pretty cool I don't want them near me That Florida panther also that was purring

That was so gnarly and amazing The weird thing is walking around there Because I love animals right So I'm in there going Oh I would actually love that as a pet So I've got that thing in my brain That is the problem I imagine you in this environment

You're in heaven there If we were based in Florida I think my life would be very different is the problem. I imagine you in this environment, you're in heaven there. If we were based in Florida, I think my life would be very different. No, because it's wrong. And I agree. That's the thing. It's totally wrong, but I would really have to resist doing it. Okay. I think your morals are just high enough that you wouldn't do it. Just over the threshold. But also when you guys are pushing back a little bit on the new law that you can't do just over the threshold but also when you guys are pushing back a little bit on the new law that you can't own these what will be the apex predator a hundred percent that has to be a law it absolutely has to be a law you can't just say well some people are doing a good job. So, like, no.

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. There has to be legislation around an apex predator. But at some point you've got to be like, no, you just can't own any of this stuff. Yeah. I think the thing she's frustrated with being someone that gets lumped with everything is what do you do with all this shit? That people already have. It's like guns. Like, they're already out there.

Yeah, like, if you could click your fingers and just make none of that stuff you know no pets of those kind for the last 50 years it'd be great maybe the zoos should have some sort of honestly buyback system for these something right yeah it sounds like it's just insane i was, I jotted this down. So the Port of Miami handles more herpetological imports, which I might be wrong on this, but I think that covers like snakes and lizards, reptiles. Handles more imports than any other US port. 500,000 reptiles with a declared value of over $6 million arrived there just in 2018. No! So that's the scale. No, that's the scale we're talking about. It's bonkers.

And so where do you begin? It has to be illegal. I mean, that's how you begin. Yeah, just stop the whole thing. Stop it. How is it compared to other states? Have you looked into that at all? No, all I know is it is much, much, much more.

And it's a client. I know that's not a great stat, but it is like Florida does blow the others out of the water. And it's just because it's really warm. And so all these exotic animals that are used to much warmer climates, they'd die in an LA winter, whereas Florida, they're happy as Larry. That's true. I'm sure that does have an impact.

But as far as laws, like i'm sure our laws on exotic animals here in california are so tight exactly oh no and they always have been it's just yeah florida is this just in general seems to be kind of like this is wild place where old people live in villages of 120 000 people do you want to update things like that villagers? Oh, on the gossip site. I sent you a few clips. Yeah, the villagers' gossip pages are batshit insane. And no, it's awful. There's been a couple of horrific crashes.

Because you'll be going through and it's golf cart and pond. You know, man angry at new rules about how to paint your house. And then it's horrific car crash between golf cart and car. Yeah. It's the most batshit news site of most batshit with like a lady like half out it looks like it honestly feels like the onion yeah no it does it's real it's it's deranged you know it's a really it's kind of a bad i mean yeah it's kind of bad taste how they run that site it is like the tmz for this old folks home. It's really weird.

Anyway, I mean, Florida. God, how many more Florida episodes do we have? We've got another one after this. What a place. I know it, but I forget. Each episode, I'm reminded. So far, I've met this woman who rescues pets. I wanted to meet someone who is involved in the actual trade of these animals a little bit.

The longer I've spent in Florida, the more I enjoy going to Buc-ee's. I've mentioned Buc-ee's on the show before. It's hard to tell if it's more gas station or convenience store. So on the way to my next destination, I pull off the freeway to get some gas. And yes, it's a Bucky's. Inside I run into an older couple, Donna and Tony, that have a trolley filled to the brim with Bucky's merchandise. I figure they can really clear up what this place is all about.

Bucky's is a large gas station who started in Texas. And they have expanded. They have at least 100 gas pumps at each store. No semis are allowed. And it's a oversized dollar general store with food, sweet goods, anything you can think of, and a lot of Bucky stuff. Our son-in-law collects the Bucky shirts. We get him one every time we come, and they're always different. And then we got our great-nephews pajamas for Christmas, and they've outgrown them, and they cry because they can't wear them every night. And the biggest thing is they have barbecue sandwiches and stuff here.

And their brisket sandwiches. Have you had one? I haven't had brisket sandwich yet. You have to have one. You have to have one. You have to try it. And people that come here, I tell you, I don't know if anybody gets out of here the first time in less than an hour.

Oh, Bucky's is crazy. And the thing of it is, you walk into them, and they're always packed. I don't care if it's nine o'clock at night or ten or in the middle of the night. We travel from here to Indiana a lot. Get into one in Georgia in the middle of the night. It'll be just as busy as this one is right now. It's heaving in here today. And before I go, about an hour later, I go and get a brisket sandwich. It's really good. So far in this episode, I've talked to a gladesman who wrestles Burmese pythons into his airboat so he can sell them for $75 a foot. And I've talked to a woman who's been tasked with looking after

the exotic pets no one else will look after. But I wanted to talk to someone affected by the recent changes to Florida's exotic pet laws. The laws that say you can no longer breed or keep certain lizards and amphibians here in the Sunshine State. I wanted to meet someone from the exotic pet trade. And so I've been given the name of a man who simply goes by snakes. So that's why I'm pulling into this driveway in Jensen Beach at about 7.30pm at night. This is Halo. This is Halo. That's Balthazar.30pm at night. I've been greeted by three very friendly, jumpy dogs. They lick and just generally make me feel welcome.

After about ten minutes of patting those good boys, I turn my attention to the man they call Snakes. So, your nickname is Snakes. Can you please explain this to me? I started with snakes and lizards when I was six years old. I came down from New York, and while everybody else was playing baseball, football, I was catching lizards. And there

was a guy in West Palm Beach that would take the lizards and snakes and turtles and would give you money for them, and he would send them up north. A lizard would be 10 cents and he'd sell them up there for $10. Not a bad deal. Not at all because he had 11 kids to take care of. The Wildlife Commission estimates the reptile industry is worth between 50 to 200 million dollars. The Port of Miami handles more amphibian and reptile imports than

any other port in the US. 2018 saw half a million new reptiles arrive, with a street value of $6.4 million. For snakes, as in the person, Florida was the dream place to realize his childhood dreams. So ever since then, I've been into the trade and raised a lot of different things, the birds, the turtles, the snakes, lizards. I feel like Florida is where, do we call it exotic pets?

Is that the right term? Yes. Yeah, the only issue with that now is that so many people would buy them and let them go, and that's the reason why now we have the issues with the snakes, which I'm sure you've heard. Yeah, I was in the Everglades, and someone mentioned to me that there are a bunch of snakes that got either. Thousands of them. Yeah. Some of them are getting big, and they mentioned to me that there are a bunch of snakes that got either... Thousands of them.

Yeah. Some of them are getting big and they're like eating the alligators. Oh, yeah. They're 15, 20 feet long. So what went wrong? Because obviously some people keep pets in a really safe way and they know what they're doing. Other people seem to get out of their depth very quickly. One thing that gives us a bad name because the fact of even the venomous is that people don't know what they're doing.

You know, they look at that like a puppy in the window and say, hey, I want that. You know, there's actually an average of 800,000 guanas die before the first year in the US because people don't know what they're doing. And the same thing with the snake. They get too big, they let it go, and they think it's OK. There's so many invasive species in here, and they're destroying everything. Snake says he knows a guy who had about 500 snakes at a warehouse that got hit by Hurricane Andrew. And yeah, they all got loose. With this sort of thing in the back of my mind, I want to know what he thinks about the recent

law changes, changes that affect his own work. I think it's a good move, but at the same time, I mean, they're trying to ban everything, which it's a multi-million dollar business. It's the exotic trade. You have people that will actually send cobras through the mail to a 14-year-old kid. But at the same time, you know, I mean, with people who have reputable businesses,

now you can't sell them. And that's my livelihood. Some of these snakes go for $20,000, $30,000. Believe it or not. As we've been talking, Snake's gotten a tiny little snake out of a terrarium that's been sitting on the kitchen bench. This is a very cute little guy. This is actually a Brooks King snake and he's actually getting ready to shed.

I ask him if he's ever had a good snake bite. He's had a few, the worst from a rattlesnake. I thought it wasn't going to be that big of a deal, but my arm swelled up, breathing wasake. I thought it wasn't going to be that big of a deal, but my arm swelled up. Breathing was hard. I spent three days in ICU. About $100,000 later, luckily my boss paid for it. I wondered what happened to the snake. So I ended up bringing her home because I was going to actually sell her, which I did. And the girl that I was dating at the time, I slept on the couch for a week because of that. She's like, are you kidding me? That snake almost killed you?

How much did you sell it for? I actually sold it for, I think, 50 bucks. So, yeah. Was it worth it? It wasn't worth it. Get out of my life. Snake's partner Jen starts singing Get Out of My Life. I kind of figure she has a love-hate relationship with Snake's passion.

Do people own armadillos? Some people do. Oh, side note, I saw on Facebook that stores are now offering there's a couple in the country that are offering hedgehogs. And meerkats. Meerkats for sale.

I should note that there are a few people in this house. All friends, all big fans of exotic animals. I think they've come because they're curious about the podcast. Derek is Irish and moved to America 20 years ago. He's still got a heavy accent and, like me, marvels at all the animals here in Florida. We've had black widow spiders on our skiers. We had raccoons that were just eating all the cat food. I admit I struggle with his accent.

Is this how Monica and Rob and Dax hear me? Is this what I'm like? Is this why there are so many crossed wires? I've seen so many people driving over box tortoises that it's actually upsetting. What's the word you're saying? A box tortoise. A turtle. I still, to this day, cannot be comfortable when you see a raccoon eating stuff out of the garbage,

or you see a possum hissing at you, or you walk out there and it's like a black razor snake, which is this size. There's one that lives right out there. One lives out there. This is how I feel. Yeah. Because we're not used to that and it's like okay there's a snake in my yard who do you call derrick leaves me from the kitchen and threw into the lounge it turns out this is his house snakes didn't want me to meet him at his

house probably too many snakes so we're at derrick's There's a big indoor pool and it's full of big, shiny carp. One drifts to the surface and Derek reaches down and gives it a scratch on its scaly orange head. I would say that a fish is almost like having a kitten. Derek likes having the fish inside so they can watch TV with him. Fish love watching TV. The fish will watch TV to calm them down. They will change their attitude to what you're watching.

I believe that. Yeah. Next to the fish is what looks like a giant birdcage, but inside are a pair of sugar gliders, tiny possums that have these flaps between their front legs and back legs, so when they jump, they can stretch out their arms and legs and glide. But it's amazing what you can find down here in South Florida. I mean crazy. Well my mother said when you move out you can have whatever you want and my mother's been gone for 30 years but you know if she could see what I've had over the years. Snakes has one last dream he wants to fulfill,

owning a special type of raccoon. As for changes to what he's allowed to import to sell and trade, he says he'll be okay. He's got another job that'll get him by. And he says a story he heard from his friend shows why things do need to get a little more under control here in Florida. His wife texts him a picture of a snake that she saw in her yard. He's like, are you kidding me? That's a gaboom bifer.

Four inch fangs. The biggest fangs of any snake from South Africa. What the hell is it doing in Port St. Lucie in somebody's backyard? It's a good question. And I just hope there aren't too many of them out tonight. I like snakes and I like his family and friends. They bring out a bottle of whiskey when the interview's over and I stay for a few more hours. I can feel the fish looking at me. Our discussion sounds like what discussion sounds like when everyone is drinking whiskey. Well, he's from LA, so don't start.

I'm moving here. This is a bargain. And before we go, Snake's partner Jen takes my microphone, insisting she wants to play interviewer. Do I have to press it? No, it's on. No, it's going.

What makes you the happiest in life? I think being around people that... And Jens and Bede? People and Jens and Bede. I'm sorry. Sorry. Cut. Cut.

Okay, stop. Anyway. I think being around people who are passionate and are doing interesting things, that's what makes me excited. What makes you sad about life? It's a good question, but no one needs to listen to a drunk interview. Turn off his microphone. I feel like in another life,

the animal-loving me could happily live here in Florida, surrounded by exotic pets. But as both snakes and Martha from the Everglades Outpost Sanctuary said, the balance is all a bit off. Pythons are eating alligators in the Everglades, and vipers with four-inch fangs are crawling around in people's backyards. There's a cost associated with bringing a bunch of random animals into a new environment. A cost to deciding that a wild animal should be relegated to being someone's pet. And I guess that cost is what Florida's figuring out.

Yeah, it was a pretty wild night, actually. I mean, they were very generous. They all came over. They brought out a whiskey, which is honey infused. So it was the sweetest, most intense drink I've ever had. And I think it's the first time on this podcast where I have gotten a bit drunk. No, on Thanksgiving too. That's right.

I don't know what the policy is on the show about drinking. We're pro-drinking. Okay. Wow. I feel like I'm emerging out of a fever dream. It was chaos. The fish were there looking at us. And he did scratch that little fish's head, by the way.

There was snakes. Everyone was getting rowdy. What a cast of characters. Yeah, it was pretty wild. They keep texting wanting to know when the episodes are. So I guess I'll text them and let them know. They seem very fun. They were a lot of fun. I mean, I appreciate that he recognizes that a lot of people don't know how to be pet owners to exotic animals.

Yeah, be responsible owners. Be responsible. But, you know, they just can't. They can't be allowed. So I think I identify so strongly with them with birds. Because I, my entire life, have had pet parrots. I look after them really well. They're in cages.

I let them out when I'm home, and they sort of flap around and do their thing. I like to think they've had a good life. Right. But also, people shouldn't probably keep birds. Birds should be free. And the more they're kept, the more people will breed them to give them to people like me. Some of them will be good owners, like I argue i am other people will be terrible what they should do is probably shut down bird like parrot ownership right you know what i mean because it it does no pun intended breed an industry completely there's so much money involved that people can't say no

or can't turn it down and then you're in this position where the animals are captive completely not every exotic pet breeder is like joe exotic who is just an awful human a lot of them are yeah but i guess you do get these people that are not like that and that's sort of caught between a rock and a hard place because their income is from that but i agree it shouldn't be in the middle when, when I was listening to this, he mentioned how much money there is and so it should be allowed basically. And I said, well, the drug cartel also makes a ton of money and is an entire industry. That doesn't mean it should be happening. Yeah. Just because someone's livelihood is based on a thing doesn't mean it should be two thumbs up right all steam ahead yeah yeah it's a weird thing to think about

and it also i know if you expand out again it gets into things like and again using myself as an example growing up i used to keep purebred birman cats because we'd show them in cat shows right and that's kind of messed up breeding specific breeds of animals for people to spend $1,000 on or whatever, like a fancy dog is or a fancy cat, when you could just be getting a rescue from a shelter. There are so many animals that already exist that need homes instead of making more and more and more. I think any industry based around animal transport and breeding gets dicey.

And I've been involved in it. I'm biased probably at times. I find this very weird because I keep finding, as this episode has gone on, I keep finding parallels to the gun industry. To me, it's so similar. All these imports, there's so many already out there what do we do about those there's quote responsible gun owners versus not responsible gun owners that way it's the same thing they also have they're also deadly yeah they also have yeah they're

deadly they also have huge trade fairs where you can go and look at all these animals and pick them up along the way. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, it's very funny and fascinating. Would you have a pet skunk if you de-glanded it and it just let out a little puff of nothing? No. She wouldn't have a pet dog. Exactly. Why would she want it?

Why would she have a pet skunk? Dogs are a billion times better than skunks, and I don't want a dog. They are a billion times better than skunks, and I don't want a dog. Although I've said I sometimes will get a random thought, I should get a dog. Monica. It will pop in. Like a nightmare? Yeah, kind of. At like two in the morning.

Like maybe during these little seizures of mine. Yeah, that's a seizure, Monica. Oh, I need to tell my doctor. I've been having more seizures than i thought i didn't know the side to you so occasionally you'll be like would a dog be maybe the thing maybe it could be a good thing to have right it's very fleeting and it's very rare but it does happen but never a skunk never a skunk and never any other animal. No cats, no snakes. One time our friends thought about maybe getting a snake,

and I was like, I'm not coming over. Even in a cage? Yeah. Does Calvin ever want sort of any extra sort of weird little pets, like as a kid? He knows better than to ask for that. Yeah, you've got a dog. You've got a cute dog.

Yeah, we've got a dog, and that's enough. dog. Yeah, we've got a dog and that's enough. Yeah. Yeah. That'll suffice. Would you ever get any other pets? No, never. I don't want another pet, no. I barely like our dog.

Right. On the scale, I feel like if it's zero to ten, zero me, you know, extreme. You're probably like a two and a half. Yeah, I was going to say three, but I'll go to two and a half. And then you're a ten. And I'm a ten. was gonna say three but i'll go to two and a half and then you're a 10 and i'm a 10 you're a 16 yeah i am a 16 but i do have a respect for people increasingly that are just like i don't like animals i'm getting maybe that's okay yeah you know i'm trying to build a bridge this episode is me building a bridge well i appreciate you know we're meeting in the middle we're're going, hey, things have to change. Oh, we can't be so polarized.

We can't be so polarized. We have to come together. Uh-oh. That just made you really not American. Oh, no. Fuck, I'm losing points. Americans love polarization. Yeah, they do.

It's their favorite thing. Okay, so you're negatives. Okay, well. But that was a ride. I enjoyed that. And it really made me squirmy and scared. I mean, what if that bad snake makes its way to California? They can slither.

I know. And we've all seen snakes on a plane. They can travel. Oh, my God. Sorry, I've got some Christmas ideas for you now for gifts. Stop, mate. Nope. Okay. I want a Tiffany's bone cuff Okay, that's what I want for Christmas

What's a Tiffany's bone cuff? $14,000 gold bracelet $21,000 Oh, what about that high maintenance lion you were talking about? Maybe I'll get a lion Sell it Monica's going to Florida I'm getting some ideas

alright bye bye