Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: Flags

Episode Date: June 28, 2022

This week on Flightless Bird, David sets out to understand why Americans love their flag so much, buying nearly 150 million of them every year. Joined by Dax and Monica, David quizzes them about what it’s like to go to school and pledge allegiance to the flag, before Dax recalls his colorful interactions with an American flag and a flag pole. David talks to flag expert, TedTalker and podcaster Roman Mars about what makes a good flag design, before chatting with vexillologist Tory Laitila - curator of Textiles and Historic Arts of Hawai'i at the Honolulu Museum of Art - about the dos and don’ts of flag etiquette. Thanks to first amendment attorney Floyd Abrams, we discover how the burning of a flag led to one of America’s most divisive court cases. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm David Farrier, a Kiwi who ended up accidentally marooned in America, and I want to grasp what makes this country tick. Now one good thing about being in America is that you never forget that you're in America. Just look out the window, and there they'll be, flags proudly flapping in the wind, signposts to remind you of your current location on the planet. Tomorrow's Flag Day, a holiday originated by a school teacher in Wisconsin more than 130 years ago. The idea was to celebrate the official adoption of the Stars and Stripes. While there's an official Flag Day, June 14th,

I don't really understand why you need it because every day is Flag Day in the United States. Not a day goes by where I don't see a flag on a pole, the back of a truck, or proudly planted in someone's lawn. Americans love it. They sing to it, they admire it, and they put one on the moon. They love buying it as well. According to the Flag Manufacturers Association of America, around 150 million American flags are sold every year. I want to know why the flag is so popular here, a flag that's changed a lot over the last 246 years. So, roll up those sleeves and get ready to hoist like your life

depends on it. This is the Flag Episode. Flightless bird touchdown in America I'm a flightless bird touchdown in America David. Hello. What does the New Zealand flag look like? It looks a lot like the British flag, and it looks a lot like the Australian flag. It's mostly blue. Got a couple of stars on there. How many, and what do they represent? Look, this is embarrassing. It's mostly blue. Got a couple of stars on there. How many and what do they represent?

Look, this is embarrassing. I already can tell. I'm mortified already. Can you see the panic in my eyes? Yeah, because it obviously means nothing to you. To be honest, it doesn't mean a lot to me. I get into this in this episode a bit, but we had this big push a few years ago to change our flag. Like an Instagram bracket? Pretty much.

Oh my. That cost millions and millions of dollars and everyone got a say on whether we would redesign our flag. There were designs put forward. It got incredibly out of control. And in the end, nothing changed. That would never happen here. We are so attached. It means so much to us. The idea of changing it is like sacrilegious. I mean, you said 150 million flags have been bought. There's only 300 million Americans. What we could really deduce from this is that every two years, an American buys another flag. Totally. It's kind of wild, right? Have you ever bought any kind of American flag, like a little toy one or a flag on a shirt or a key ring? Who's buying this flag? I do wonder that. Do you think it's a lot of tourists? I think there's definitely a lot of tourists buying it. Because

I remember when I first got here, I went down the Walk of Fame and every tourist store, there were American flag, everything. So people people are like I've been to America I'll take the flag they want a piece of it but see that's so funny because if I go to another country that's never the souvenir I'm buying you don't rush out for the flag it represents a lot to a lot of people it's funny like the New Zealand flag I don't really know much at all which is deeply embarrassing and yet here I am trying to learn about why Americans are obsessed with that flag. Yeah. I do think it's because we have embraced it so much. If a flag hits the ground, is that bad luck in New Zealand? I mean, people care about it, but you don't go around and see New Zealanders flying flags on poles at their house. That just doesn't happen.

So being here and just seeing how much it's in every part of culture and i just find that kind of wild i went and talked to a bunch of people on a walk about this to see what they thought and opinions range from we love the flag to we're not so hot on it i think i was maybe one of the last generations to grow up saluting the flag for school had to hand over the heart and did like the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag as an elementary school child in the 60s. It's just pride in the country. Everyone likes to see the flag.

We grew up saluting the Pledge of Allegiance every day in school and you knew about what the Red Stripes meant and the White Stripes meant and the blue field and the white stars and there's a star for every state. Fourth of July probably helps a lot too with the marketing aspect of it. What's the Fourth of July that you light fireworks off and stuff? Yeah, light fireworks off, grill some hot dogs, do some sort of water activity. It's fun. Drink some American beer.

Post 9-11, you really saw the influx of American flags and America. Proving you're standing behind your country. You're proving your patriotism. Most of the flag flying is done by people to the right of centre. In New Zealand, we don't fly the flag nearly as prominently as you do here in America. I see it everywhere. And I'm wondering, like, how it makes you feel when you see an American flag? It's trash. It's absolute trash. It's the new bullying technique, so that's why you see it even more often.

You've never seen so many flags flown ever before. It's some bullshit. Why do you guys love your flag as much as you do? Because we idolize ourselves. I used to really think our flag was beautiful, and now I see it, and if I see it just regular every day, you know, it feels fine, normal. But if I see it on someone's car, if I see it on a huge flagpole behind somebody's motorcycle or massive truck or a whole bunch of them all in somebody's yard, it doesn't feel like they're being patriotic. It feels like they're trying to be like,

these are my beliefs and I want you to know it. I find it interesting bringing up the Pledge of Allegiance. Is that not a thing anymore? Well, I was curious about this and the documentary I get into this as well because I feel like no one our age knows. They don't know whether it's happening like what's happening in school. Oh, we'll have to ask kids because I definitely was still doing it. What did that look like at school? Was it at the beginning of your day it was at the beginning the bell would ring and everyone had to be in their

seats and then announcements would start it would sound over the speaker back up what are announcements would start what does that mean god you guys you don't know anything it's just like in sitcoms i've seen we have like a loudspespeaker and there's like a newsreader or something. Exactly. Like a student reading out notices. Well. Or is it the principal? Depends.

Depends on the school and depends your age. It used to be the principal or the administrative assistant. Someone official would come on. They'd say like, don't throw hot dogs in the cafeteria or everyone will be suspended. Put your March Madness bracket in the front desk. I love it. Just like housekeeping. Exactly.

Housekeeping. And then all rise for the Pledge of Allegiance. Then literally everyone stands up, hand over your heart, and you recite. Let's see if I can remember it. Now I'm scared I'm on the spot. I pledge of allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god with liberty and justice for all i'm skipping something and you do that all in unison together visible everyone in the whole school wow and is every is anyone in there like i don't feel like doing it today like what if you don't do it you don't

detention or you just have to do it i mean when was in school, nobody was like being an anarchist. Being naughty. Everyone just does it and gets on with the day. Everyone just does it. It's literally a ritual. I don't think anyone thought twice about why we're doing it. What does it mean? And it stops when you leave elementary.

No. Oh, we didn't do it in junior high or high school. I did. I did it all through. High school? Yeah. When you're pledging allegiance you're looking at a flag that's on the wall yes or something yeah that all all the classrooms have a flag

wow i forgot that until you just asked that yes every classroom has that goes towards all those flags sold probably just in classrooms all the schools yeah you face the flag and you put your hand up and then you finish that and it's like okay school day starts here's some maths that's right back to the announcements this is my favorite announcement i ever heard in my life to hear this principal try to tiptoe around this so the announcement was like this needs to be addressed in the we had centrums so there's like three different centrums with all these classes right in the whatever centrum in the boys bathroom. Somebody has been putting their excrement on the walls. And we like the way the long and the short of it was someone had been smearing their poop on the walls of the boys bathroom.

So repeatedly that it required an announcement to address it. And it was like taking us 10 year olds a minute to figure out what the fuck she was talking about. And then what occurred to us, oh, my gosh, someone's pooping on the wall. All you heard through the whole sentence was just uncontrollable laughing. Yeah, that's fun. And I always wonder, like, who that little boy. I don't know if he was panicked, like, oh, shit, I'm busted. Or like, I'm a god on earth

this whole place is laughing michigan boys he loved it he probably high-fived you no it wasn't it wasn't there's no way to like gently say what had happened right she was trying and trying and trying and then she just had to eventually say like excrement or whatever and then there was a b and then one yeah one person got it then one person got it, and then everyone got it. It was incredible. This is a ding, ding, ding, sad ding, ding, ding. When I was in high school, announcements were over video.

So everyone had a TV in the room. The broadcast team did it. And it was during our announcements, I believe, that the first plane flew into the. Oh, my goodness. September 11th. Everyone was kind of panicking on the announcements. They were like, everyone turn on the channel to ABC. Something's happening.

And then it was crazy. Far out. That's where you were. Yeah. English class. Callie was there. She's still there. She's still there. She's still alive.

I love that part of school where the substitute teacher would come in and they'd just roll out the TV on wheels. Yes. And just put on a movie or a documentary or something. Like, oh, yeah. You know, I had kind of a sexual fantasy. Just like felt tingly over transparencies. Okay. We've got to come into this do you remember when this first happened like what was on the transparency i had this too you did well it

was particularly the way the wax pen would write on the transparency that auditory clue what also it's like an asmr thing for me and the texture of wax sliding. Mine wasn't wax. Ours was like a dry erase. But it's just like putting it on and off of the projector and it being clear like that. Yeah, there was that sound when it sort of flops down on that glass surface. And the lighting of it all and the writing, and then you could smooth out. I just loved it.

Yeah. Does it still give you tingles when you think about it now wow you should work with that um i i endeavored to learn more about the american flag this is what i learned i think the first time i really clocked how important the flag is in America is when I found myself in an MMA match in Muskegon, Michigan. The national anthem started and the whole crowd suddenly turned to face me. It gave me a huge fright as I already felt like an outsider. Now everyone was staring at me. I felt like they'd caught me and were going to beat me up.

Then I realized that behind me, up on the wall in the far left, was an American flag. And the American flag is what you sing your national anthem at. What's the word? Vexillology. Yeah, vexillology is the study of flags. I'm talking to Roman Mars, who knows a heck of a lot more about the American flag than I do.

He makes a radio show I love called 99% Invisible. It's about graphic design and how we interact with it in our day-to-day lives. And about seven years ago, Roman did this really amazing TED talk about flag design. And then I show up the first night and like somebody like who's like a former prime minister of a country gives a talk about normalizing trade relations. And you're like, I'm going to do my fucking flag talk, my dumb little flag talk in two days. And they're going to think it's ridiculous. And it ended up working because what I did was I set up in the talk was like, you don't think you care about flags, but I'm going to convince you in the next 17 minutes that you actually do.

I am deeply aware that TED Talks aren't what they used to be, but his one is great. He chose to do a deep dive into the flags of different American cities, the ones that soared and the flags that flailed limply in the wind. In my sort of theory I was putting out into the world was that I think that there's richness in city flags. Most cities over 50,000 people have flags. You mainly don't see them because they're not really considered, they're poorly designed, they're kind of ugly. And if people were into their civic pride and into doing something,

then maybe redesigning your flag was a way to get there. He opened up the world of vexillology. It's a very hard word to say. And he opened up all the strange terms that come with it. Words like vexilloid, fanion,

burgy, banderol, and fimbriation, which sounds like some part of the human anatomy you don't want to know about. Roman is really good at breaking down what makes flags good and terrible flags terrible. If you're in Chicago for any length of time, you notice this flag that you've never seen anywhere else, and it is the flag of the city of Chicago. And it is quite lovely. It's a white field. It has two horizontal blue stripes and has four six-pointed red stars across the center. I was like, what is this flag about? I had no idea. Why is it everywhere? It's like on municipal buildings. It's on cops' uniforms. It's on tattoos of, you know, punks, you know, delivering papers to other offices. It's everywhere. And I lived in San Francisco for a

long time. I lived in big cities and I'd never seen a city flag before. You see, why are people embracing this in such high volumes from every different background? That was my question. Why is this city flag really matter here? And it doesn't seem to matter anywhere else. That question led Roman on a quest to look at flags all over the United States, looking at them from a design perspective. Flag design should be so simple you can draw it down on a shrunken one and a half inch rectangle. It should be able to fit and look good when it's shrunken right down. A kid should be able to draw a flag easily from memory. While diving into the world of American flags,

Roman has spent a lot of time around people who study vexillology and he breaks them down into two main camps. They're really kind of like the Civil War reenactor type. They're really into history. They really like, how do you fold a flag what does this flag mean where was it flown what individual flag was flown at a certain battle or something like that and then there's the vexillinare sort of style which is kind of like a person who like wants flags to be beautiful and thinks that they could be redesigned and made better and be more effective and has stronger opinions about which flags should cease to exist and that history isn't neutral. And those are the more designy types. And those are the people that I tend to

gravitate towards. He actually made me kind of curious about the first group, the big old nerds who were into the history of it all. So I found one at the University of Hawaii and decided to pick his brain for a bit. I have maybe close to two file boxes full of 3x5 flags and another collection of smaller flags. Tory Lytilla adores flags. He's all across the history of them. But to be honest, what I was curious about was the code of conduct for flags. Because in New Zealand, we don't have a code for our flags.

Anything goes. Well, mostly. But Americans take it a bit more seriously. So there's a 16-page booklet of rules. In the United States, there is a flag code. And there's actually protocols and customs and courtesies related to that flag. And not every country has that. If you fly a flag on a flagpole under regular condition,

you might have to change it every six months to a year. And so you have to take the old flag down, dispose of it properly, and then put a new one up. Because you don't want to have a faded or tattered flag flying on your flagpole. That's actually in the flag code. Then it's also how a flag is displayed and used. It shouldn't be used for advertising. It's not to be used as clothing. It is a national symbol. When it's flown in a row, where does it stand? You can actually hem it. There's actually

guidelines about if the end is frayed, you can re-hem it up to a certain point before it's too short, and then you have to replace it. There is so much in the flag code. Like when you hoist it, you have to do it quickly, as quickly as possible. But when you lower it, you've got to lower it really slowly. There are rules about flying the flag at half staff. A lot of rules about that one, which makes sense because it's associated with tragedy and loss. With all these rules in mind, I was curious if you could actually get into trouble for messing with the American flag, for breaking the rules. So the flag code does have

laws. It is a federal law. But because there are no civil penalties, it's not always followed. So you could do something wrong and then there's no penalty for it. So the flag code actually states for organizations and institutions like schools to fly the flag from sunup to sunset. Now, I know some agencies only fly it on weekdays because that's when they're open. They don't fly it on the weekends. Well, there's nothing to punish them for not flying it on the weekends, so they don't. Of course, there used to be state laws against burning the flag, laws that were enforced in 48 states. That all changed back in 1984, when a protester called Gregory Lee

Johnson burnt an American flag outside the Republican National Convention. He was charged with desecration of a venerated object, fined, and sentenced to a year in prison. He appeals, and eventually the Supreme Court ruled that the First Amendment protected flag burning. So in Texas v. Johnson, Gregory Lee Johnson won. Legendary First Amendment attorney Floyd Abrams remembers the case well. The Texas v. Johnson case was a particularly significant one in the history of the First Amendment. And the reason for that is that the speech is so repugnant, so offensive to so many people. The speech is burning an American flag. What the court said in the case is, look, bad as it is,

unattractive as it is, wounding as it is, that's protected speech. And one of the reasons I think the case is so remembered is the emotional quality of the dissenting opinions of the jurists who thought that that certainly could and probably should be a crime. And the Supreme Court says, we get it, we really understand, but it is a form of expression. It's a way to announce how angry you are at what you think are the errors of the government. And the majority of the court, I would say rather bravely, came forward and said, however much this offends, however much this hurts, it's still allowed and it's still protected in a country with a First Amendment. In short, it was a big deal because, as Roman Mars points out, the flag is a big deal. What does the American flag invoke in you at the

moment when you see a big American flag flying? It's kind of changed over time. I mean, the one reason why I think that the U.S. flag is flown so much is that so much of the American mythology is about ideas and the Constitution and there is no one American and we all are only here together in this place and the flag could represent that well because it is more of an idea than a country. No one's from here unless you're Native American. But over time, you see flags used in protest and modified in protest that the bigger and more obnoxious than the number of U.S. flags are beginning to invoke in me a kind of like patriotic bludgeon rather than just a pride in a place. I was curious what you thought of that as an American, because I kind of get cautious

when I see a lot of flags out there, or if I'm in a state that I don't know about, and suddenly a lot of American flags, it triggers a certain kind of response. And that seems more recent, but maybe it's not. I would say it is more recent. I've definitely felt it more recently. When I see a house with more than one American flag on it, I begin to like, oh, OK, so what is what's their deal? Maybe it's fine. Maybe they are the type of patriot that I think is critical and patriotic at the same time. And maybe they're the type of patriot that is uncritical and patriotic. And I would say that the number of flags makes me think that their ability to criticize America decreases. It's an inverse proportion.

Yeah, you're right, though. It it is it's a number of flags i hadn't thought about that i was thinking size but like the sheer volume of them is the key i think to knowing i was the flag boy in fifth grade oh you just dropped this now you were because i I wasn't talking, but now I'm fucked up. Here we are. I came back and you were fully in the same spot. I was pontificating by the time you walked back in. Yeah, at Spring Mills Elementary in fifth grade,

I was asked to do flag duty, which was awesome because you were out of the classroom in the morning and you went and got the flag from the principal's office and then we put it up and at the end of the day i'd get out a little bit early it's a very specific way to fold it which i know you go in a third and then you do these triangles and then it folds perfectly and tucks in that was very ocd rewarding that you'd get a perfect tuck and it'd be this perfect triangle i didn't feel any patriotism when i did it i guess i felt special i was the only me and my buddy were the only two in charge of that.

I felt responsible. Why did you get to do it? Were you strongest? I had this beautiful teacher. I've talked about him on here before. He saved my life. Mr. Wood. And he's the one who discovered I was good at math, which is what made me feel like I

could maybe learn to read and blah, blah, blah. But I think he was on this mission to include me and build my self-esteem. So I think he's like, I'm going to give him flag duty. That'll, he'll, yeah. That's really nice. Fucking beautiful. I don't, obviously I was completely unaware of that at the time. I just thought, to your point, maybe because I was tall or something.

Or I was kind of a responsible guy. I don't know. But you'd hoist it quickly? You did the quick hoist? Yeah, did you learn about the methods? And the slow de-hoist? I don't remember the speed at which we would put it, but I'll tell you what I would do, because I lived in the neighborhood next to Spring Mills,

is we would go up there on the weekends when there was no flag. We'd untie the thing, and you could sit on it, and you'd run, and you could fucking go out in the air, and you would swing like 60, 70 feet at a time. And I even did it in the nation's capital with Aaron Weakley. We were walking down the street, and there was this enormous flagpole in front of the Smithsonian. There was a flag on it, but i don't think that's disrespectful and dude we got on this motherfucker and it was up on steps and when we went out we were going out

over cars i know this seems impossible understanding it really so there's a building there's like 10 steps up and then on the big cement landing of the building where you'd walk into the doors there's enormous flagpole yeah you unravel the thing you sit in it and then you run on the steps and then on the big cement landing of the building where you'd walk into the doors, there's enormous flagpole. You unravel the thing, you sit in it and then you run on the steps and then run off the steps and then you're sitting in the rope. And then you were so high up and it was such a tall flagpole that the arc of it would take you out over the street, over cars. We made a ride and we took about six, seven spins on a pop people were yelling at us but there's none of them were police and then we got out of there and there was no issue that was one of the most fun little impromptu rides i've ever been on and if i was ever back there i would do it again

that is an incredible visual image it's definitely not in the flag code and i kind of love it but don't do that at home don't do that you if the robot had broken and the flag fell down Yeah, that's horrible love It lands on you, lands on some traffic That wasn't the case This situation, we were in 12th grade And it all worked out Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors

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city flags he dislikes. San Francisco has a horrible flag. You'd never fly it. It comes down to that. And the flags he loves, like Chicago's. But what about the American flag? That clutter of 50 stars and all those stripes? To me, it looks pretty good. It's all right. It's simple colors. What's your take? Yeah, it does the job. I mean, like most things in design,

you can have some rules as to how things are supposed to be done and how they could be made more effective. But the real test of whether or not it's a good design is if people embrace it and love it. And that one, unequivocally, it's like super successful. I mean, it's been to the moon. That's incredible. Yeah. And so I think that there are these good things like 13 stripes and 13 colonies that give you some idea of where the history lies with it. And then the blue canton has the stars that change based on the number of states. I think personally, like 50 stars is too much to take in as meaning. So if there's 51, you wouldn't know if there was 48. Like people fly a 48 star flag pretty often without really noticing it. This was a surprise to me that there

are versions of the American flag. Since 1776, there have been 27 different versions, mainly editions of stars, as states were added. I guess that's a good thing if they're going to have to add more states at some point. If you're not going to notice it, kind of great for the designers. They can just slap some on and no one notices. That's right. But it's one of those things that when people talk about adding a state and are cautious about it, they often invoke the flag as, well, we can't change the flag. And we have to look at all the things on the flags we'd have to deprecate and then burn and then start new ones and stuff like that. Is there ever a chance that the country's flag would change? Is that even a possibility? Not this country. Sometimes they do and sometimes

they don't. I mean, New Zealand went through this. New Zealand did go through that, a referendum, a big old voting process to change our flag. It's D-Day for the flag. The Prime Minister, John Key, says he's confident we'll know later tonight if New Zealand's want a new flag. Well, it's absolutely going to happen. We will know later tonight, the second referendum, where voters must choose between the current flag and the alternative blue and black Karl Lockwood design with the silver fern. It was a truly chaotic process. Public submissions giving us designs that depicted our flightless kiwi bird shooting laser beams out of its eyes. Laser kiwi, they called it. John Oliver mocked it at some point. There were so many terrible designs,

a lot of joke designs, but there were also a number of really good ones made up by graphic designers. Of course, after millions were spent on the whole process, New Zealand just chose to keep the flag exactly the same. It cost the taxpayer $16 million for nothing. If you were to say to me as a New Zealander, why do I have no history of caring about the flag? And I've noticed in America that people do. I would say it's because you have a flag that's almost exactly the same as your neighboring country. So why would you give a shit? I mean, he's right. Our flag is pretty much the same as Australia's flag. We designed our flag first too. Then Australia came along, slapped a couple of extra stars on, and Bob's your uncle.

That's a punk-ass move of theirs to take yours. But anyway. Roman Looks to New Zealand is perhaps a bit of a cautionary tale. A warning at how difficult it can be to change a flag. What ends up happening when you change flags and why, even though I'm happy that the TED Talk inspired a lot of flag changes, I never get involved in any of these fights. No, it's chaos. The town meetings are chaos. It's because I just want them to think about their flag and love their flag. And if the end of that process is, you know what, we love this whole flag that we have. And maybe it's not perfect. And maybe it's a little janky and ugly, but now I'm going to fly it. That's a perfectly good end result of the process

of thinking about it, as far as I'm concerned. In all this talk of flags, I was curious how the main American flag stacked up against other flags of states or cities. Is it one or the other? Or does the American flag always win out? I do find it unique in America. Obviously, New Zealand is a lot smaller. But here, you know, you've got a lot of different states and they all do have their flag. What is the importance to an American of their state flag or their town flag, their city flag versus the American flag? I would say that the importance of a state flag and city flag is pretty minimal.

Like really, the American flag just dominates all of it. Except for in those weird moments like Chicago, where they have a good enough flag and a good enough like, like Chicago, I lived there for a while. It has a chip on its shoulder about everything. And so like when it does something good and is part of something and it is, it's an amazing place. It shouldn't have a chip on its shoulder. Everyone thinks it's great. But there's a way that that kind of pride, it just comes out in the flag.

Like DC's flag is used really well and used very often. Portland's flag is used well and often. It's sort of hit or miss when it works. What's California's? Is it like a big bear or something? Yeah, it's a big bear. And it's one of those ones that normally

I'm against the idea of having words on a flag because you should come up with symbolism that doesn't require words. The California flag says California Republic on it. And for something about using that, it sort of captures us in a way of being a country inside of a country that I think is really meaningful. But the main reason you don't have words on a flag is the flag is supposed to be used both directions. So you can't read it backwards. Thinking of backwards flags reminded me of something else.

I've noticed people flying flags, including Stars and Stripes, upside down at protests. I do find it fascinating. Typically, an upside down flag is a sign of distress. So it means that something's wrong. Come get us or something like that. So it does not surprise me that an upside down flag from a protest point of view is like America is broken, however you interpret that. And we're part of the resistance. We're going to fix it, whatever it is. And so I think that's good imagery.

I think it's a good use of a flag. It conveys something. You notice something is uncanny and weird and unsettling. Yeah, something's off somehow. So in a way, it does its job as a flag. I have to admit that I find the thin blue line flag, which is a modification of the United States flag. So it's like a United States flag with all the color drained out of it. It's black and white, except for one of the stripes is made blue.

I find that image chilling. The thin blue line is the idea that the police are the line which keeps society from descending into chaos. The thing is, any changes to the image of the flag mean so much because the flag means so much.

And Roman leaves me with something I hadn't really thought about before. He tells me the main thing that's kind of special about the American flag is that it's free from what burdens so much of America, advertising and corporate sponsorship. Basically, the American flag hasn't sold out. And in 2022, that's kind of special.

One of the things I like about them is there's very few things that aren't branded or owned. And a flag is a thing that you can use and it's yours. And it can represent both establishment and the anti-establishment if used right. I like that there are still symbols that have that potential. There's so many things that I learned in that that I just had no idea about, and I felt like a complete dummy. I didn't know a lot of that either. That was fascinating.

I think part of our obsession with the flag potentially has to do with our lack of history. We don't have a Parthenon, or we don't have a cathedral that's been there for centuries that we could point to as our history. We don't have that so we have this flag that represents us and has represented us for so long we don't have very much else to point to and i don't mean that in an insulting way to us it's like what else do we have

to be nostalgic for yeah totally and i guess there's people from so many different places on the planet that if you're an american it's like a shared thing you can latch on to. Exactly. I was also thinking about the California flag because it's a form of identity. It doesn't have to be. It shouldn't be. It's just a representation of the country. But when people have 40 flags in their yard, it means something about them. They are saying, this is me. I'm a patriot. Maybe they were in the military, but they're saying something. People who embrace the California flag often are doing the same thing. They're saying, I'm a liberal. I'm a West Coast Californian. Yeah, I'm a liberal Californian. Yeah. When I see that flag, I'm like, yes. Like, I love it. I love the California flag.

I want a sweatshirt with it. I like walking around and saying, this is me. But I would feel uncomfortable probably walking around with a sweatshirt that was just an American flag. I feel like maybe I would get misunderstood, which is not really right because I love this country so much. because I love this country so much. I think it is more of a recent change, that thing where you're just literally wearing a flag or having a lot of flags suddenly makes you like a patriot as opposed to just, I really like this country.

Happy to live here. You just stumbled into something. This is the most multi-ethnic country ever assembled. And when you had all these people living in boroughs and you had Irish people next to Polacks, next to Italians, the one thing they could all put in front of their house that would neutralize it was that flag. Yeah, it's like signaling. It's signaling. Don't forget, I'm an American. Forget me being Italian or Irish or this or that.

I'm pledging, I'm displaying, I'm an American. You could so easily think your neighbors were foreign. You could make them other. And I don't think there's ever been a country that needed so badly a symbol of us. Unity, yeah. Because everyone's so different. Exactly. But I think we've circled back. Yeah, totally.

It's not that anymore. It's not that anymore. It was needed then. But what it means now is that it's signaling to other people if you've got the flag that no i think yeah i'm a real american i'm a real american it's kind of the opposite of what it was intended and i don't know like when it will swing back from that because roman said the fags obviously never going to change here so is it ever going to be a point where we all feel happy with a big flag on our lawn? And that just means I like living here.

Well, we're all so polarized right now. It's so extreme. Maybe eventually it will come back. The pendulum will swing a little bit back towards the middle. But right now, everyone looks at that flag and thinks something different. Yeah, completely. Maybe it's a matter of having your state flag and the American flag out on your lawn or something like doing both of them.

I don't know I can tell you during the first Iraq invasion desert storm we have a huge Arab population in Michigan and Dearborn and a few other areas and this is unfortunate but it is true immediately flew a flag to let them know like yeah I'm iraqi but i'm not with them it was a way for them to say i'm not an outsider i'm one of you and so it's unfortunate that they would have to defend themselves from people who would think that but also there's something really kind of beautiful about that too make no mistake i'm an american yeah for me it feels sad that you have to prove to everyone else like i'm like you i'm an american don't worry you shouldn you have to prove to everyone else, like, I'm like you. I'm an American. Don't worry. You shouldn't have to. You shouldn't have to do that thing. Yeah. But yeah, 9-11, there was a lot of that going on, proving that you're an American.

Well, we put Japanese in internment camps during World War II out of the fear that they were still loyal to Japan. Yeah, right. Yeah. There's a deep history of that fear because we are a country of immigrants. I don't excuse any of it. It's a bummer across the board. And also, it's a very unique situation that has created kind of a unique outcome. When I studied abroad, everyone told us to put a Canadian flag on our backpack so that no one would think we were American because everyone hated Americans. Right. And then, of course, I was like, I don't want to do that. I'm an American and I like it. Yeah, that's so insulting. That's like me pretending to be Australian.

In the simplest terms, it's our brand. And like any other brand, the symbol evolves as the company evolves and it's standing in the world and it's standing in the marketplace. There is a point where the Mercedes symbol was inextricably linked to nazism where volkswagen was a car created by nazis which is wild to think about now yeah and so that symbol it's so malleable and it can mean a million different things over a million different periods and that fucking flag when it showed up on the beaches of normandy europe was like fucking a the stars and stripes are here. That's when the brand was awesome. Yeah, at its maximum. It still has moments like that where it's flown and you feel like, oh, we're one.

If the Ukrainians right now, they see a big convoy of fucking vehicles coming at them and there's American flags flying, they're stoked. Yeah, you mean internationally. I mean, even here. But I agree with you. There's so many periods where I had the same thing in backpacking through through europe which was like put a roots sticker on your backpack that's just canadian company yeah so it's had all these downsides and then also it's been times where people are like oh god the good guys are here so it's really complicated it's not one thing or

another every michael bay film ever made has that slow motion american flag rippling with the swelling music and that's the ultimate version of the American flag, right? It's like, this is the heroic moment. Everything is going to be okay now. I love the 4th of July. I really do. It does mean something to me. I do remember on that day that just by a series of happenstance that I live here. Yeah. And I could so easily have not. And I'm so proud and I'm so grateful that my family made the decision to come here. It's special to live here and it's good to be reminded.

So what do you do on that day to celebrate? Is it like fireworks, water sports, beer, flags? Pretty much. Family, cookout, shared meals. That sounds so nice. It's kind of like a Thanksgiving that's specifically about being thankful that you're from here. It's a nice thing to be reminded of, right? Yeah.

There's jingoism. There's like toxic patriotism, which is like, we're the greatest people to ever live. And we're better than everyone, superior. And we know best. And our will should determine the course of the world all that stuff but the heart of it this is a place people escaped religious persecution this is a place that people have escaped from totalitarian regimes this is a place of people that came to have a better life there's very few places that represented that in the way that this place does so it is a beautiful beautiful fucking experiment and it's got

warts and it's got an ego yeah and it's complicated like a person but our constitution rocks our democracy rocks there's a ton to be proud of opportunity i mean it really especially for us liberals are so critical 364 days a year it's actually nice to sit down and go like with all that said this place fucking rocks but i think part of being a good american is being able to criticize it and have gratitude both things should be happening well let's be very specific the cornerstone of liberalism is progressivism which innately means we want change yeah exactly we want to make it better conservatism is the opposite which is we must conserve this wonderful way so yes conservatives are less critical because they are trying to conserve something they think is great and progressives are innately trying to progress to something better so i do think us liberals are more actively and outspokenly

calling for a different america than conservatives are so i do think for us liberals are more actively and outspokenly calling for a different America than conservatives are. So I do think for us liberals, Fourth of July is a great reminder. Do you think more liberals need to start popping the American flag on their electric car and going, hey, I like this thing? Will that balance things out? Yes, because if you don't like the people that are representing this thing you love, then you should represent it. So, yes, I don't think we need more American flags. We need to up that number of 130 million. But if it's going to be used by people, then you should represent it as well.

I'm happy to take back the flag. That's what I'm saying. You kind of got to take it back. It's kind of like birds aren't real. It's like you got to out absurd the absurd. Yeah, I think you're right. I'm going to get you guys an American flag stickers for Christmas and put them on your cars. Do you know much about the whole Confederate flag situation?

Because that pops up here occasionally, but it's awful and used to be a thing and is hopefully not now. Yeah, I didn't know if that was going to come up on this episode but it's definitely worth touching on because it's a huge representation in this country of what some people in the south would say is a quote way of life right and what we know is that's not the case that it's it's a flag representing slavery and oppression of people. In my opinion, there is no defense around it. However, I know a lot of people who I love dearly. None of them are flying the Confederate flag currently, but they'll fight you on it a little bit.

How could you argue for it? Let me be incredibly clear. I don't believe that the Confederate flag should be flown anywhere. The state rights argument is bullshit. It was only one state right that we went to war over, and that was the right to own slaves. But people have a choice they can make. So a lot of people that want to defend what the Civil War was about will say it's about state rights. So this was supposed to be a country made up of states who were going to be sovereign in some capacity. So they wanted to keep slavery. Unfortunately, they can't get around that.

That was the state, right? And then maybe people throwing a booze tax that existed, but states wanted the right to be sovereign. The federal government said, no, this is going to end mostly driven by the fact the Mexican American war, where we now had this great huge chunk of land, which is now Texas. And now it was becoming really important to figure out whether slavery was going to be allowed there because it was in the south slavery was existing in the south even though northern states had laws against it so this had to be decided because it

was either going to be now another state that has slavery and so it really instigated this civil war there's a civil war the flag of the rebels is the confederate flag and so there are people who take great pride in the fact that the south was defiant that they were rebellious that they believed they wouldn't ever succumb to the tyrannical government yeah they're leaving out that the tyranny was you can't have slaves yeah so again that said there are a lot of people that think it represents the south their way of life growing food hunting rebellion if you try to put your thumb on me you're right so if i saw a pickup truck rolling by an estate and i sort of stopped the driver and was like hey just checking did you like the idea of slavery or not then most of them would say don't like slavery

but and even deeper if you pulled over everyone with a confederate flag on their truck a significant percentage of the people would hate black people there's no question because that's all i associated with yes is that there'd be a percentage that doesn't that would tell you i don't at all yeah but even if they don't believe that as signaling that they're part of that club in addition to the confederate flag you see stickers everywhere that say the South will rise again. People act like there's going to be another round. Okay, look, but we're talking about so many different kinds.

There's so many different facets of people. People who have the South will rise again are probably pretty racist. Well, let's just say this. A lot of Southerners just hate Northerners. They hate Yanks. They hate the North. They want to rise again against the North and not be racist. But it is.

But a huge percentage of them are racist. There's no way around it. But yeah, to quote defend, I'm not defending. But the people who I know who at first when sadly this was not that long ago that all this Confederate flag stuff came back up. They are, yes, conflating that flag with southern pride with southern hospitality with hunting we're different than the rest of the country they do want it to be a club not a racist club but i choose to live here we're nice here we're from the boondocks we believe in the bible exactly right it's so fascinating you have a direct touch with that

that's so i didn't realize that that's like a whole thing that would be like some facebook friends would pop up in that category and they would really really believe that that flag doesn't mean slavery sure it came out of the civil war but it doesn't represent that anymore it represents fishing and it represents southern accents and being nice to your neighbor and but anyone now post all of this awareness awareness yeah anyone who's still doing it to me is really making a stand they're saying i don't care and that's a big problem i can give some leeway to people who just decided they didn't want to think about it, but we made them.

Absolutely. Yeah, unavoidably so. Exactly. And I think a lot of people were like, yeah, that should probably go. No one's opposed to there being another southern flag that represents the south. Exactly. South's awesome. Yeah, there could be a flag that represents that.

The south is different from the rest of the country. It is. It does have its own feel. If the Northwest wanted their own regional flag of pine trees and mountains and rivers, fine. I mean, the California flag is essentially that. We're so big. It's representing liberalism and it's representing what we idealize here. And the South wants its version of that, I think.

Yeah, they should have a fresh one. I want to go South for this show, by the way. Like, I want to get in there. There's so much there. We should go do a little trip. There's so much to take in there that I really want to see. Not the Confederate stuff. It's beautiful over there.

It's also drastically different. On this whole spectrum of conservative liberal, there are gaps in the South that are bigger than the gaps between Georgia and California. Yeah, right. Like if you're in Appalachia, it's so specific. If you're in deep Louisiana, that's Cajun culture. That's like a whole other ball of wax, French influenced. And it's dense with culture.

And I think they would argue, and they're probably probably right it's more distinct than when you're north you'll not be in new orleans and go like what are we in you know it's very specific i mean it just yeah it is you know the only other flag that i think is as symbolic we were so immersed in all in on the cold war more than any other country was other than maybe england can you see the hammer and sickle as clear in your head as you can the u.s flag oh hammer and sickles jumps out so much and i just think that's purely from the pop culture of consumed from like films and tv even but globally it has to be the second most recognized flag i think it probably is you know it looks like that it's red with the yellow hammer and sickle. What does it mean?

USSR. The hammer and the sickle. So it's a people's movement of agrarian movement back to the hammer and the fucking cropping. See, I honestly just think it's from films like watching Hunt for the Red October and stuff. I think of the Japanese flag, but maybe that's from films as well. But that's just so striking. Exactly. It's a great flag. It's a really good flag.

White with a big old red bullseye. I love flag's pretty memorable i think yeah yeah flags i hadn't thought about them much until this episode at all because they're just in the background driving around here i just can't help but go you really love your flag you guys that's a cool flag it is a cool flag well you learned some stuff today i some stuff. You know not to burn any flags. I'm not going to burn any flags. You'll be protected to, but not from the people around you. Not from the people around me. Do you like the flag more or less having learned about it?

Because I know as an outsider, it's like, get over yourselves, guys. That would be my reaction. Like, just get over it. Stop sniffing your own flags. I didn't come in with a huge admiration for your flag. Yeah. I feel like I'm about the same. Okay, great.

Honestly, I haven't really gone up, haven't gone down. It's not the greatest design, but it's fine. It represents, I don't know, it's. Okay. Yeah, I'm neutral. I'm going to take away some points. I'm becoming less American. I think you're negative for. Oh, no. It's for the ending. Did you look up the. This was a net zero. Negative four.

Oh no, it's for the ending. Did you look up the Chicago flag? We had it on our merch shirts and it's one of my favorite shirts ever. I've almost got that. A variation of that tattooed. You should get it on your neck. I'm going to get the American flag at the end of the season tattooed on my arm. I would love that.

I have it on the inside of my butt cheek. I don't have it. I'm love that i have it on the inside of my butt cheek i don't have it i'm never gonna have it