Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: Juggalos

Episode Date: August 23, 2022

This week on Flightless Bird, David dives into the insane world of Insane Clown Posse fans, who called themselves “Juggalos.” David is shocked to discover that due to the criminal enterprises of certain members of the fandom, the FBI decided to classify them as a gang. David talks to one of the first people to document Juggalo culture, Derek Erdman - before meeting another documentary maker who spent years with ICP’s “Violent J” and “Shaggy 2 Dope”, unlocking the magic that makes this band a $10 million-dollars-a-year business. With the annual Gathering of the Juggalos approaching, David learns ICP and their fans tell the story of a very specific part of American culture, that isn’t going away anytime soon. “Woop woop!” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander who ended up accidentally marooned in America, and I want to grasp what makes this country tick. Now I've always had a fascination with subcultures, be it heavy metal music fans, live action role players, people who like to dress up as furries, or adults that like to tickle each other. But there's one subculture that's always felt like such a mystery to me, and it could only have been created in the United States of America. Whoop Whoop is the cry of the Juggalos, a subculture of fans that adore a rap group from Detroit called Insane Clown Posse,

ICP for short. I remember first hearing about the group when I was at school in New Zealand. Their song Miracles, even a hit down under. If magic is all we've ever known, then it's easy to miss what really goes on. GQ magazine has called ICP the worst rappers of all time. I've seen miracles all around me. Stop and look around, it's all astounding. Water, fire, air and dirt. Fucking magnets, how do they work, or maybe because of lines like that,

the rappers have been around for over three decades. According to the band, their music empire brings in around $10 million a year. That's largely thanks to their incredibly loyal fan base of so-called juggalos, who often wear black and white face paint like they're heroes. But back in 2011, juggalos got so big and so loyal, the FBI decided to classify them as a gang. In return, the insane clown posse sued the FBI. I wanted to know how in America, one minute you can be a fan and the next minute you're in a gang. So grab your clown makeup and get ready to ask,

how do magnets work? Because this is the Juggalos episode. This is probably the most niche episode of this show. Could be a mistake. Could be our greatest endeavor. They'll tell us. They'll tell us. Listeners will tell us. They'll tell us. People will, listeners will tell us. I'm so biased.

I have certainly an inflated sense of who they are because their home stage was St. Andrew's Hall, which I live like eight blocks from

and where we saw all punk rock shows. Have you ever seen insane clown posse perform? Because I embarrassingly have not. I was having an ethical dilemma while I was listening to the intro going like, am I going to pretend I just saw them?

Because clearly I could have. They played nonstop at St. Andrews. Yeah, that is a good ethical dilemma. Do I lie or do I tell the truth? I've never seen them. But they were unavoidable in Detroit in the 90s when I was going to shows. Yeah, and they are prolific. They've released, I think, over 15 albums.

Their fan base is, that's what I try and figure out in the documentary, they are rabid and they're so passionate and they get involved. And the fact that the FBI took notice of them and went, hey, a certain proportion of juggalos are actually committing quite a few crimes. Therefore, if you proclaim to be a fan, a juggalo,

you are a gang member. That was particularly interesting to me. The period I'm familiar with, they had a following in Detroit. They had enough fans that they could regularly book St. Andrew's Hall, which is a moderate-sized space. I don't think it was until later where I said maybe I stumbled upon a documentary about them. And I realized, oh my God, this has grown to hundreds of thousands of fans and also the fans to me evolved from what i associated with icp in detroit completely and i think it goes from we like this rap that speaks to issues that are close to us whether it's

violence or family violence. Magnets. I mean, by the way, that line in New Zealand, that line was such a big joke. Magnets, how do they work? Such a good question. I mean, who really knows? Nobody knows. And to just drop that into a song is kind of amazing.

They do really interesting things. Their favorite drink is this drink, which I've never had, called Faygo. Faygo? Everyone in Michigan drinks Faygo. It's like an orange-flavored drink? this drink which i've never had called fago right everyone in michigan drinks fago yeah can you just it's like an orange flavored drink there's a lot of different options on the table all of them equally delicious okay i think the most popular would be red pop okay and rock and rye rock and rye is incredible it's almost like a cream soda-y taste but with the red pop mixed in and a cola flavor. It's a lot going on. There was also Frosh, which was like, if you can imagine it was green,

it would be like their take on maybe Mountain Dew or something. They're like counter-programming to the boring, run-of-the-mill pedestrian sodas. Now, I don't know if they predate Coca-Cola or not, but yes. Faygo, Werner's, Stroh's Beer, Sa's beer saunders coney dogs these are the staples of the america or this is this is a whole different i think topic of this podcast actually is drinks like that yes but at some point insane clown posse decided that that was their favorite drink and so they would bring it to concerts and a big part of that show is just showering the audience in fago oh i wonder what flavor they

use and people love it i think the orange one i might be wrong okay but yeah so that's like a big thing and there was big controversy because when they toured in australia which is near new zealand they got all their fago confiscated because they thought it was they were going to sell it for commercial purposes like they were importing it with them but they're like no we just we bought a head of spray for free on our fans. Custom didn't believe them, and all their drinks got... Did people demand refunds? They got a replacement drink. I think they got Fanta.

Okay, yes. If you've had Fanta, you're in the world of Faygo. Insane Clown Posse brushes up against other favorite American institutions like wrestling. They've got their own wrestling network, and that's a whole big thing. So they appeal to a very specific part of america i'm not trying to be disrespectful to them as musicians but it did appear to me in the mid 90s when i was going to show is like okay these guys are pursuing a niche they're not great musicians that's not what they're going to get known for and you had other bands of this era that were getting pretty popular like guar war was performance first guys in huge titan outfits spraying the audience with blood you go

for a show yes they had huge oversized bats with nails in it and maces and it was like a gladiator band does any of this appeal to your moniker at at all? Or are you just like, what is going on with these? It sounds like a true nightmare. Well, when you sent a list of stuff we were going to be taught, like you were like, oh, for the next five flightless birds, it's going to be this, this, this. I thought you were talking about gigolos. And I was really excited about that.

There's many email exchanges where Monica's saying gigolos. And of course, I'm just thinking, oh, that's autocorrect. She's definitely typed juggalo and it got. I thought it was weird how excited you did get about that very specific topic because I didn't think you were a juggalo. And I was like, why would you be into juggalos? What if I was a secret juggalo? If you secretly face painted your face like a clown and went and sprayed Faygo over people, I would love that so much. From what i understand

about the fan base you're like antithetical to it in every way i am i remember when it was on mtv i was like horrified really actually scared well it's it's clowns are scary they're trying to be dangerous their lyrics are pretty scary the whole thing's scary. This is a well-worn tradition in heavy metal and in punk rock. Not all these guys can play that well, so let's give them something else. Yeah, I'm more pop. Musicianship. You'd like your musicians

to have some command of the instrument. I went and hit the streets as always to get some other thoughts on juggalos. This is what the rest of America thought. Are you other thoughts on juggalos. This is what the rest of America thought. Are you aware of what juggalos are? Yeah, like circus animal juggalos. Juggalos.

Juggalos? No. Do you have any idea? No. Juggalo? No, I haven't. No, I haven't. No, I've heard of the word jiggalo.

How do you spell that? It's J-U-G-G-O-L-A-L-O. I've heard of jiggalo. Hey, do you know the word juggalo? Yes. What is a juggalo? Oh, it's like an older man who, like, disrespects women. Does it ring any bells for you?

Juggalo, are you talking about insane clown posse? Yeah I know what that is. Can you explain your understanding of it because I'm trying to understand juggalo culture myself because we don't really have any juggalos in New Zealand where I'm from. People who follow insane clown posse they wear clown makeup usually kind of scarier clown makeup almost and i think they're just really intense fans of the band you're not a juggalo no i am not you're not a juggalo no no i don't follow any of that stuff i also realized listening back that i spout juggalos wrong when i spout it out to those people which makes me feel particularly stupid real-time fact but yeah monica you're not alone again makes me think this is probably the nichest flightless Bird we'll ever, ever, ever do.

That's a euphemism for worst. Yeah. Look, I'm going to start with. No, no, hold on, hold on. This is not genie. We're not in genie territory yet. What's that? Is that her name?

Oh, no. Jennifer. Jennifer. Oh, I got no. Jennifer. Jennifer. Yeah, look, I'm going to start. No, hold on.

This is an Easter egg. Throughout the course of 100 episodes of Flightless Bird, it will be revealed David's only misfire. And I just want to tease it out for a long time. But just know that one of the clues is Jennifer. Yeah, and it makes me recoil. I kind of want to just tell people what happened. No, we got to tease it out. We got to tease it out.

Maybe ultimately we'll play that episode I'm out there every week I'm trying to find topics You are a brave and loyal soldier You're working your ass off When you were not around we were commiserating about you yesterday Oh this is nice We were all like going

I don't know how he's as prolific as he is But do you need to take a break The writing the webworm doing all these episodes. We were astounded by the output and concerned. So just know that we hold you in the highest regard. Thank you so much.

I mean, look, I'm a single man. I live alone in Los Angeles. What else am I going to do except write episodes of Flightless Bird? You know, when I saw the documentary, what I saw was, to me, the general appeal would have been from the kids in my school that we would have called the trench coat mafia is the documentary you're talking about the united

states of insanity because i talked to the director in this episode and he's great because he spent seven years with juggalos so he knows this community inside out part of what makes it fascinating is generally fans are white they're poor they're at the sort of lower end of society in general but they kind of embrace it that's the thing it's not like oh poor us so they would probably hear that and just be like great and that's us i relate to that deeply i remember being the kid on the wrong side of the tracks and feeling like yeah go ahead and judge us and fuck you and watch how gross this is there's something empowering about whatever thing you think i am i'm gonna scream it from the rooftops and it's the opposite to where so much of american

and the just the western society is going in general of this is my best self like social media like this is me looking the best this is my best everything juggalos are like we are pretty much the opposite of that we know that we don't have a lot of money and we don't have a lot of friends we don't live in the most affluent parts of america but that we don't have a lot of money and we don't have a lot of friends we don't live in the most affluent parts of america but that's fine we fucking love it we know how to rage and have a good time which is kind of magical yes they're not in denial about who they are right i like it yeah they're dressing up as clowns like it's leaning in to the whole thing but yeah this is my little documentary for this week because i really didn't know very much about jugglers

not juggalos. Insane Clown Posse is made up of Violent J and Shaggy 2 Dope, two Detroit men who both have the first name Joseph. But to be honest, I'm more curious about their fan base than their music. Their fans call themselves Juggalos. They were a fan base I was introduced to thanks to the first ever documentary made about Juggalo culture. It was a seven minute film uploaded to YouTube in 2009 and documented the yearly gathering of the ICP fans. An event known as the Gathering of the Juggalos. If you call one of us outcasts, you better call us straight up.

You know, you step to one of us, you better step to the whole crew. It was a really pure documentary. It's just clips of juggalos talking about the band and the culture they love. There's barely any editorializing. The fans just speak for themselves. I'm six and a half months pregnant. Will your baby be a juggalo? Oh yeah. Absolutely.

I decided to track down the man who made that clip, Derek Erdman. My mother was the one that introduced me into I guess juggalism, one would say. Because I have a cousin who is a juggalo and then she told me a little bit about it and then we saw the ridiculous commercial that came out for this gathering.

The massive family reunion that brings together the most misunderstood people of all time. It's the 10th annual Gathering of the Juggalos. The gathering looks like a mixture of jackass, a music festival, and a comedy festival all rolled into one. Plus some wrestling thrown in as well. 550 pounds of viscera. It seemed so ridiculous. And since it was in Illinois that year and I was in Chicago, it seemed to make a lot of sense to easily just go down there.

And we actually pretended we were working with NPR and got free press passes. A great journalistic trick. If you're with some tiny media outlet, just pretend you're with CNN or something. They'll probably let you in. I noted this down for the next time I tried to infiltrate something. Southern Illinois, it's pretty rural. We were pretty surprised to see that there were signs from local residents. Juggalo parking here, welcome juggalos.

From what I could tell, they'd been kicked out of another area in Ohio, and this was their first gathering in Illinois. Just walking up, meeting people in the parking lot and seeing that style. They all look very similar with the braided cornrows and the face paint and fishnets or walking around in just a bra. Fucking million people more. There's like a fucking thousand people. What did you make of it when you walked in there? I guess it was intimidating by the amount of people who were there and the amount of people who all sort of looked the same.

But the whole time, we were overwhelmed with how friendly everybody was. I'd been to Grateful Dead shows in the past, and it was kind of similar in a way. Everybody was positive. They were happy you were there. You would think with these types of people, you know, it would be aggro or there'd be violence, but there was nothing like that. And because that was the law of the land, that really fed into it being a really positive experience, which was so surprising. And that made us really happy.

It sounds like a good time, like Burning Man, but with less tech bros and hipsters. And that's where it gets so confusing, because I'm watching an old episode of Nightline from 2010. It seems worlds apart from what Derek's just described to me. We've got multiple individuals committing gang-related crimes, gang-motivated crimes, and they're using the name Jonalope. The clip is only 12 years old, but it feels like I'm watching something from the satanic panic days of the 80s. But in this case, Satan is the insane clown posse. The Nightline crew embeds with a police officer who's traveling America warning other officers about the dangers posed by juggalos. After a series of murders and other violent acts linked to their followers, juggalos are now classified as a gang.

The weapons, they prefer obviously hatchets because they talk about that all the time. Battle axes, we got machetes, we got anything that can make the most violent, gruesome wound. There was a bit of a juggalo crime spree carried out by people with a distinctive look, cornrows and painted faces. Some had the same tattoo,

a silhouette of a man with a hatchet. And juggalos could get pretty inappropriate, even at the gathering. Tila Tequila performed in front of Juggalos in 2010 and was literally chased off stage by men drunk and high who'd been hurling insults and bottles in her direction. I didn't see anything that was dark. The year after that Tila Tequila incident, it really bummed me out. Kind of turned me against the Juggalos a little bit okay i'm just checking in with you guys how are

we feeling about juggalos so far documentary maker that i watched that documentary on youtube when i was in new zealand he says had a great time peaceful loving people yeah then you hear nightline reporting the 90s early 2000s they love getting hatchets and doing crime yeah to me it seems like an unavoidable arc to all organizations there's a honeymoon phase you've come together you've discovered you're not alone that's beautiful and then it's okay well now we're a group now everyone else is on the outside of that group you get into this in group out group thing and then i feel like this is where humans are intrinsically dangerous because then it's like well okay first i'm relieved i have a companion now it's like oh now that i got this buddy let's talk about these fucking assholes that put us in this group and now is there anything we can do to

get even with these people it just seems inevitable yeah Yeah, we could easily be in an episode of Armchair and Dangerous because it's like the conspiracists, they find each other and suddenly you're empowered. What are we going to do about it? Yes, there was probably some sweet spot of the mole children before the guy drives the train off the track. A hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent.

It starts somewhere sensible and ends up somewhere ridiculous. And I guess also when you're dealing with a group of people who probably have grown up in broken homes and conditions that aren't as, you know, they're not going to push you in a certain direction, then probably some people are going to turn to crime. We're brought together by this fact that society at large thinks we're disgusting or deplorables and we're gross. So we know that scares them. This group we don't like that we've been rejected from. So let's scare them. Yeah, 100%. This also reminds me, Monica, speaking of Waffle Houses, many episodes back. It is.

There's a headline I found after a show in Indianapolis. Insane clown posse's tour bus stopped at a Waffle House when a customer began to harass two of the members. A fight broke out and all of the band members got involved. And until I spoke to you, I didn't know Waffle House when a customer began to harass two of the members. A fight broke out and all of the band members got involved. And until I spoke to you, I didn't know Waffle House. Hosted fights. Hosted fights. Yeah, they do. If I plotted the plot line, it would be we've come together.

Now I'm at Waffle House with more than by myself. Normally I'm at Waffle House my whole life as a kid and everyone's pointing at me and laughing at my combat boots and my clown makeup. Now I'm with five guys and we actually win. And now that spreads through the community like, oh, my God, Jay and Pete were at the thing and they beat these jocks up. Now everyone wants a little taste of that. So what would have probably started innocently as a self-defense situation, now people probably actively want that revenge. Yeah, the image has shifted and it means something now to people that were loners.

There's a psychological component to it where if they have grown up in chaos, they're used to that. So they feel safe in that space. They're ready to get wild. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Flightless Bird is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I take Athletic Greens every morning because I don't eat enough vegetables and fruit because I eat badly. And genuinely, since I've started taking it, I feel better about my life, which is great. It's an easy thing to do for yourself every day. It's also like a nice ritual. It's like you wake up, you have your athletic greens, you know you've

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A loosely organized hybrid gang. Overnight, fans were now officially gang members. Now, the National Gang Intelligence Center says there are at least a million juggalos across the United States. They say around 10-15% of those are involved in specific criminal activity, things like extortion, murder, domestic terrorism, drive-by shootings, drug trafficking, and arson. And juggalos formed not just one gang, but subsets of gangs, with names like the Downtown Clowns, the Tunnel Rat Ninjas, and the North End Villains.

Unfortunately for the non-criminal 90% of Juggalos, the FBI still lumped them in as a gang too. I wanted to talk to a man who followed all of this, another documentary maker, Tom Putnam. Last year he released The United States of Insanity, a film documenting his seven years with Juggalos. Their reputation is really gnarly. There are some crimes that are the mass shootings. Guy goes into a gay bar with a hatchet and murders people, shoots a police officer.

Guy barricades himself into a radio station and takes hostages, stabbings. I mean, the worst crimes you can possibly imagine. So I should note here that Insane Clown Posse's style of rap is loosely termed horrorcore. It has a lot of horror imagery and a cast of characters and themes that pop up throughout all their music. They're also pretty open about their rough childhoods, abuse and violence, and that clearly connects and speaks to fans who have had similar experiences. After talking with various gang experts, we came to realize that if you take a million of anybody,

you're going to find not just some bad people, some mentally ill people, some very, very dangerous criminals in that group. You take a million people who are from the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum, for whom music that sings about abuse is important, it's probably going to be a higher number of criminals. So in 2014, the Insane insane clown posse did something quite insane. They sued the FBI. The Anti-Defamation League backed them. The FBI and the Justice Department told CNN they were aware of the lawsuit, but they declined to comment on the pending litigation.

Technically, that case is still ongoing. The ACLU filed an appeal after the last ruling against him. But the reality is that everyone knows it's not going to make it to the next higher circuit court. It's probably dumb. It's a blow for the juggalos. Imagine how difficult it's been for them and the toll it's taken. The toll it's taken on their fans. People have had their lives absolutely ruined. And then imagine you're one person who gets put on a list. There's really almost nothing that you can do. I think the

average person, no matter what their politics, can recognize that that's just inherently wrong. I mean, I've never been on any kind of FBI watch list that I'm aware of. How does it affect them in like a day-to-day way as they try and live their lives as a band and just as a couple of individuals in America? So for the band it's affected them in terms of money if you have three or more juggalos in the same place that's a gang meeting well that makes it hard to get a venue for a concert it makes it harder to sell merchandise and it makes it harder to run your business. You can have just walked into like a Hot Topic. They sell ICP shirts in malts and buy a shirt. You're now considered a gang member. The police can and do pull over. They'll photograph you. They'll put you in the gang database, which means you can't get social

services. You can't get college scholarships, can't join the military if you're arrested for a crime you get a gang enhancement and these things have happened to hundreds of people your life can be ruined we interviewed a guy who had his son put in a group home for years because he had icp posters on this wall that was considered gang paraphernalia this juggalo couple they were to a ridiculous degree the most clean-cut people you've ever seen. They're both physical therapists in rural Ohio. They love Harry Potter. They love the X-Men. And they both dress in all white and high school sweethearts. They're the most delightful people. And while we're filming, her boss at the facility she worked at asked her, hey, what's this

documentary about? Oh, it's about the music we listen to. This is the music. She got fired on the spot and there's nothing you can do about it. It's all pretty weird. I think of all the things I'm a fan of. What if my fellow Jurassic Park enthusiasts started murdering people? Will Jurassic Park fandom be destined for gang status? I think of how passionate people are about Marvel films and DC comics. Are they going to be gangs? I know I'm being a bit dramatic, but you get the idea. It's terrifying. It can happen to anybody. The FBI has no published criteria for what makes a gang. There's an unofficial three-item checklist of which the band only checks two of those items, which means the Boy Scouts, a church group,

any other group of people that essentially has what's called a name symbol identifier, they can be considered a gang. And there's nothing you can do about it. No one's ever been taken off the gang list. And in looking at the history of the FBI and the various groups they've targeted from immigration activists to environmental activists to reporters who have been critical of the agency and of the government, to reporters who have been critical of the agency and of the government. I think it's very clear that it is easy for the government to have too much power. And as with any large organization, it's not the power that's the problem. It's when they make a mistake. There's almost nothing the average person can do to stop it. I mean, you look at this band. They make $10 million a year. They have a million fans. They're backed by the ACLU. They have the ability to get a lot of press.

They've been in this lawsuit for seven years. There's a victory in that they got taken off of the FBI's website, but there's never been a formal apology. They've never actually been removed from the gang list. The case is one circuit below the Supreme Court. Do you think juggalos could have happened in any country besides the United States? At this point, there are juggalos in a number of other countries, but I think America has a very unique brand of social collapse that we're dealing with. supporting them economically. We're all struggling and feeling isolated. And the media here, followed by the law enforcement, really truly vilifies anybody who is different. And where's their heart on their sleeve? This is a band that will sing openly about the most embarrassing stuff and they get made fun of in the national media for that. And they're just being honest about their feelings. And I haven't really run across a lot of many other countries that are as mean as the United States. And I think that that's created the situation where

someone is willing to gravitate toward something like a band that has that much value. I put the same question to Derek, the man who was the first to document the Juggalo movement way back in 2009. What's your insight into what makes this band and this community tick? Honestly, I think it's an inevitable byproduct of the collapse of American society, in a way. It is a lot of people celebrating their lot in life.

And the songs I've heard by the Insane Clown Posse are sort of communal, but also celebrating the more white trash sides of life and saying, hey, that's okay. And obviously a lot of people identify with that. If you can get thousands of people to come to a field and camp out in the mud for three days, there's obviously an audience for this. And I would also say this is definitely a Midwest thing. When you visit the Midwest, you see this, especially in those smaller towns that maybe at one time thriving and now they have a lot of meth or opioid use. If you can celebrate your way of life and see it not as a great detriment or something ultimately

sad, I guess you should do that. Yeah, there's something of a purity to it as well. Like no one's trying too hard. They're just being themselves in a way and not pretending to be something cool. They're just all communing with each other. Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that. But it would also be absolutely fucking insane for anybody to try to pose to be a juggalo. You're right in a way that it is kind of a boiled down purity.

And it is almost like the base of culture, like base as in the bottom of culture. And so it's a celebration of the bottom of that culture, I guess, unless that sounds fully psycho to say. I think this whole story is psycho, a weird race to the bottom with an understanding that maybe the bottom's okay. It's sort of the opposite to the American dream. And I guess it explains the success of Insane

Clown Posse with their one million loyal fans. They're honest. They know who they are and they know who their audience is. They're not trying to be better than that. And to think all of this sprang from the minds of two men who once posed a question that sort of became one of the first big memes. Fucking magnets, how do they work? I feel like magnets kind of went viral because it was this weird mix of like earnestness and humor. Like how much does humor play into the scene, do you think?

David, do you think that magnets thing was a joke? I am. Okay. So am I, am I thinking? I don't think that was a joke. I think they really didn't know how magnets worked. And you know what? As I laughed at all this and thought, gosh, those idiots not knowing how magnets work. It occurred to me that I'm not really sure how magnets work. I mean, magnetic fields, north and south poles, push and pull, but really, how the fuck do magnets work? Hello, this is Caroline Ross. Oh, hey, Caroline, it's David Ferris. Caroline is an expert on magnets. So I'm a professor in MIT in the Department of Material

Science and Engineering. Magnetism comes from the electrons in atoms. As you think of them whizzing around the nucleus, it's a little bit like a current going round and round in a circle. Look, to be honest, I think maybe it's easier to go with Shaggy Tudope's explanation of magnets. They're a miracle. I see miracles all around me. Stop and look around, it's explanation of magnets. They're a miracle. I've missed this year's Gathering of the Juggalos, but I might go next year. I've touched base with Violent J and Shaggy2Dope's manager. He seems really nice and says they're open to talking to this particular flightless bird.

If I end up going to a Gathering, because I would like to try and get along to one, any particular advice? I mean, I'm a pretty lanky white guy, so I've got the whiteness on my side. Don't have cornrows, don't have face paint. Any advice? Be yourself. Maybe get a hatchet man tattoo try the face paint on see how you see the world through the face painted face so stay tuned i guess there might be a million and one juggalos soon enough

so yeah i think i can go to the next gathering which i'm excited about maybe i will do the face paint i won't do any crime or any violence please don't like with any group there's a bunch of those people that are truly awful and abhorrent and there'll be a bunch of juggalos i like to think that some juggalos will be listening to this and going oh god those people like they give everyone a bad name you know on the surface this episode maybe doesn't seem like it's in keeping with flightless bird but i gotta say the themes that burble up in this episode are maybe the most poignant american themes that you've stumbled upon there's an underpinning of our deep christian worldview in that if you look at the groups that have been easy to villainize, they're generally going to play on the evil side of

the paradigms. So Ozzy Osbourne, right? He bit the head off of a bat because it actually represented devil worship or evil. The country mobilized and they were obsessed with it and law enforcement cracked down. Other birds are getting harmed in much bigger numbers in other activities that are not that don't fall into the good and evil dichotomy and because of the symbolism yes as being interpreted as satanic suddenly and mind you down the road they released a thousand doves at a wedding and like 18 of them

were killed immediately by the gas heaters and the the roaming owls you can't say that we object to the harming of birds because the harming of bird represented evil now it's mass moral panic i think the reason the fbi didn't think twice about identifying them is that they through their face painting and how they look, they do hearken to this sense of evil, that they're evil, they're anti-Christian in some way. Oh, totally. And they play up to that, like the whole genre of horror. They've got a lot of what would be seen by that part of America's evil imagery. And so, absolutely, that would be part of it.

But they're actually violent. Well, of it. But they're actually violent. Well, hold on. They're not actually violent. Some members of them are violent. Like if you were to take the people who went to Rolling Stone concerts, certainly as many murderers involved, you're talking about millions of people. So you can't say they do anything. They're promoting that. It's tricky because it's that thing of artistic expression.

It almost goes back to that thing of people that play violent video games, will they carry out awful things? Because at no point are Insane Clown Posse telling an audience to go and commit acts of violence. They'll sing about that stuff. But then I guess it goes back to other rappers who are probably slightly more skilled, like Eminem, who's got horrific lyrics. I mean, so many, so much of, I guess, metal and rap and music in general is filled with certain bad ideas. They're not actively encouraging it, but it's certainly a big part

of it. So yeah, how much does that play in? We do revere literature in this weird way. We all have this core belief that you shouldn't burn books and that literature should be allowed to be what it is. Catcher in the Rye. Catcher in the Rye, there's been multiple assassins holding a copy of the book when they were caught. No one would dare say, get rid of Catcher in the Rye. Look, the last five shooters were holding the book. Clearly, that makes people shoot people. You go, no, it's literature and these guys are knuckleheads and they latched onto some aspect of this book. But no way are we getting rid of this book.

The vast majority of people aren't. But music, we don't hold in that same reverence. No, not at all. And it reminds me of something else kind of amazing about this band is that briefly, I think in the late 90s, they were on Hollywood Records. And Hollywood Records, I don't think it's around anymore but it was owned by disney and so at one point literally insane clown posse with all we know about them now about their violent lyrics and crazy ideas released an album via disney it went out there disney recalled it it had sold i think something like 20 000 units not a lot but disney yanked it

because everyone had started turning on disney and going you cannot be representing these people do you know what they're singing about do you think disney just saw a clown and they're like i actually think they did i think they probably looked to them and like these guys are funny and wacky and did that song about magnets i just love that the idea that these guys were signed to Disney at one point, like chef's kiss, hilarious. The other, you want to say something, Rob? Have we got a fan in the house? This is what I desperately hope is that Rob speaks up as an ICP fan.

We look over and Rob's in full clown makeup. He put it on while we weren't paying attention and we all screamed. Then he kills us with a hatchet. I remember there was a woman, I think on Vice, that went undercover like 10 years ago there at one of the gatherings. And the police couldn't patrol at them. Like they weren't able to. And there was tons of drugs and all this insane stuff happening.

So the cops were almost too scared to go in or create too much drama. Yeah, there was just this big area in Ohio which they're kicked out of. They just stay away from. Yeah, but it was just unlawful and all this insane stuff was happening there. See, that's why when I say I'm going to go to a gathering, I am genuinely curious whether it's going to be kind of fun and a bit drunk and silly, or if it does actually turn proper feral. I'm very curious.

But if I'm in the makeup, in the clown makeup, I'll be fine. I'll be one of them. You should go in a varsity jacket holding a football and see what happens. Let's go as a jock. We know that the divide between the left and the clown makeup. I'll be fine. I'll be one of them. You should go in a varsity jacket holding a football and see what happens. This guy was a jock. We know that the divide between the left and the right to some extent

is driven by a sense of elitism. College graduates versus non-college graduates. And that seemingly inane song about magnets is incredibly deep. That song is broadcasting I'm dumb and i'm not embarrassed about it and i'm not gonna let you make me feel shame or less than because of it we have total

willingness and acceptance over ridiculing people for being dumb genetically some people are smarter than others i understand how a magnet works I didn't work hard to do it. I just can. Yeah, you can grasp that. Particles are electrically charged or positively charged, and two electric charges are going to repel each other. Yeah, I'm still struggling. Two positive charges are going to repel each other,

and positive and negative bond. If you're not, say, above a 90 IQ, and you live in this country, I don't want to call it a disability, because I don't think it's a disability. It's a part of the... Why should you be allowed to turn on those people that aren't as smart as you think they should be? You can see them owning it and finding their own prime and say, I'm not going to be shamed by you.

It's a deep song. And I think that is what a lot of their lyrics are like and connecting they're completely honest with the fan base that likes them which is like we're damaged we're broken we're struggling we always have and we feel kind of terrible about ourselves but we're all together in this and we shouldn't be judged by it because this is how we are so screw you and i also don't want to paint with a broad brush and say that juggalos are not of the average intelligence. But also, if you come from a violent, broken home, school is in a place you can really focus. Even if you're smart and you're in that classroom, you have the shitty clothes on and you're not listening to the explanation of magnets. So it's like a dual fold nature nurture thing that results in these kids being shamed for being dumb and stupid and bad students.

But how much of it is people shaming them and how much comes from a defense that's not getting put on them? I've never been around someone of lower intelligence and I'm like, you're stupid. I think so. I've been with you. When we're watching the Capitolitol riots we're like look at these fucking dumbasses they don't even know what they're writing about they're not true i don't say they're stupid i say that's scary that's crazy trump is i i never said they're stupid i know i do it i absolutely am judgmentalist h. My end conclusion after writing while I was listening is we're part of the problem, ironically.

I'd go meta on it and say even the fact that I've put this episode together without speaking to any jugglers directly. I've spoken to two other white men who have made documentaries. Who are smart and are experts on them. Who are smart and educated. And I'm talking to them to get in. It was sort of like two layers down. It's i haven't met them i'm talking to two people that have yeah what am i to on my high chair not to go and meet and talk to some people well in some part of this show i think there's a good part of this show too which is i think we're really fair

which is great i completely agree but the baseline interest is how the fuck could these people believe these things? I think this. How are they so stupid that they think that hundreds of workers were stringing up explosives within the World Trade Center and no one saw it? How do you think that could physically happen on planet Earth? Yeah, people who believe that there are a hundred Bigfoot wandering around in the forest. Yeah, this is stupid. You're stupid. And I always try and pull myself back from it,

but I'm definitely guilty of having that thought. And I'm a guy that couldn't explain to you in a logical manner exactly how magnets work. Well, because you're stupid as fuck. Because I'm stupid as fuck. But we all have these blind spots, you know? That's the thing. Both documentary makers also said

they had some problems while they're filming because it's that constant dichotomy of your juggalos have just horrific things they've done, particularly like with, you know, murders with hatchets, etc. That can't be denied. But their experience was, you know, our car broke down and actually like helped us with all this gear and they were like quite drunk and high, but there was no threats of violence. We just had a really great time shooting with them. And I've made my documentary and it worked out really well. And I hope I'm clear, Monica, at no point am I trying to excuse anyone that had been violent

because this is their self-defense mechanism. I'm only trying to recognize how does it get to that point? Well, I think here's all the ingredients you're laughed at. You're not accelerating through school as you're supposed to. Once you don't do that, you're not going to ever have a job that's because your life is fucking done. I get that,'s an upstream issue but the end result what do we do yeah are you saying that i just sitting in and accepting it and not wanting something better is a problem potentially yeah i mean i think that's a through line in general like i mean it should giving up be a thing to aspire to. Exactly. That's not ever my argument. It's like when I argue that we should be compassionate towards criminals and the judicial system, put them in jail.

I want punishment. I want all the deterring factors that are applied to everyone, not just because I feel bad for these people, but I can do both things. Yeah, we can do both things. I definitely don't think distinguishing them as a gang is the answer. That's preposterous that they're all in a gang. Yeah, that's just a particularly wild thing that happened and terrifying. That's a side note that it's insane that the FBI has made it illegal for more than three of them to gather. Yeah, that is crazy.

Yes. And again, and I'm only pointing out that it is very interesting who has earned those distinctions because you've got a ton of far right wing Christian groups that are blowing up abortion clinics and are committing murders. But we are never going to label any more than three Christians gathering as a conspiracy. No, it's that Phelps family that gathers and protests outside soldiers' funerals. Yes. So we got to at least be honest about who are willing to put the gang label on. In my opinion, that's a bigger issue than the 0.01% of juggalos who went and committed murder. 100%.

Yeah. And all this thing is so American to me. The fact that you can walk into a Hot Topic, which is a store, which is very funny to me, the idea that all these sort of genres are being commodified into like a mall store where you go in to look edgy yeah just very funny to me but again because all those little rejects are at the mall and they want to send up a flag completely we're in this together and that's what that that store does to people we're in this

together go there you know buy some and sound insane clown posse shirts if you're driving in the wrong part of america and there's like a bunch of you all in the car and you get pulled over like you have to watch yourself it's just such an outrageous concept it's so odd to me it's a big over correct it's a big i agree yeah so look i'm gonna go to the gathering i don't know if rob do you want to come along on that particular road trip you know this could be the kind of thing i could attend because i could be in clown makeup and i would be anonymous i think it could be kind of wonderful yeah to get you to a gathering yeah i do too it's one of the few things you go out and not just yeah you're not going to be mobbed you can just be a juggalo for a day when you asked

me what doc i saw and then when rob you brought up the vice thing all i could have told you is that the amount of muddiness they were all comfortable with was such uh uh like all my walk away was like man they don't mind being muddy like i would be so uncomfortable covered in that much mud they were relishing in it yeah i don't know how that ties in but it does seem like every gathering is just always a muddy field and it's never green beauty it's always mud and what a metaphor for like where they see themselves yeah it's part of the whole thing it's part of the whole thing yeah yeah whoop whoop

whoop whoop oh shit are we now on the list if either Rob or Monica now say whoop whoop then this becomes a syndicate whoop whoop oh fuck we're dead you