Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: OnlyFans

Episode Date: August 27, 2024

This week on Flightless Bird, David Farrier sets out to understand OnlyFans, which while based in the UK boasts a mostly US based audience. David talks to Sara (@pockowokosara) who we first met on Flights of Fancy, an OnlyFans creator based in the USA. She talks about her experiences making content and what it’s like managing and catering to a paying audience. David then explores the world of male only fans creators, talking to Jakk Maddox about some of his stranger experiences on the platform. David ends his journey by talking to someone who used to work for creators as an OnlyFans “chatter,” essentially pretending to be someone else! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

David here, just a quick PSA before we start, from next Tuesday Flightless Bird will only be available on the standalone Flightless Bird feed, it will no longer be coming out on the Armchair Expert feed. So if you aren't listening to this on the Flightless Bird feed already I suggest you find it and hit subscribe. I've listed where to find it on all the main podcast platforms at bit.ly slash flightlessbirdpod. That's bit.ly slash flightlessbirdpod. Or just search flightlessbird on your podcast app and you should find it. Okay, on with the show. I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally

marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. A few months back now, we tried out a new thing called Flights of Fancy where listeners got in touch with something they wanted to see explored here on flightlessbird. Something that grabbed our attention was OnlyFans, the site that lets you sign up and pay money to get spicy content created by specific people. And while OnlyFans is based in the UK, it's predominantly used by Americans. Only 6% of its users are in the UK, while a whopping 43% are based in the United States of America. And as of January this year, it had over 455 million visits from horned up

American users, which dwarfed the 70 million from Canada, the UK and Australia combined. I guess America's just hornier. I wanted to understand what OnlyFans is all about and why Americans love it so much. So grab your credit card and prepare to pay a random person on the internet to take your loneliness away because this is the OnlyFans episode. Oh, a quick warning, this episode contains adult language and themes so if you have kids in the car maybe listen later on or don't you're the parent not me you decide but if they're my kids I'd maybe hold back for another time like just listen to something else a song or

something and then maybe listen to this podcast later on. But it's up to you. Fly this, fly this, fly this bird touchdown in America. I'm a fly this bird touchdown in America. I wanted to warn people, you know know I'm glad you did for one thing I've noticed about America Monica look I don't want to get political but America does have a really prudish kind of response to sex doesn't it yes it gets up and arms about sex it doesn't mind violence but sex mm sex, it's a no-go. Which is weird because there's a lot of sexy sort of billboards around.

But then if you get two, if you insert a nipple or a penis or a vagina suddenly and you combine them together in the one place, holy shit. It's not allowed. I know I never was aware of this really because Indian culture is much more conservative. Right, okay. I don't know enough to really say that, but that's my experience with it. And so when people would say America's so conservative around sex, I was always like, not really, but definitely compared to Europe,

probably New Zealand. What's happening in New Zealand? Totally, I think New Zealand is a lot looser than the United States. I mean, I feel like, it's a while ago now, but since Justin Timberlake got arrested and we got that amazing mugshot of him, people were sort of like relaying some of like his history.

And I just think of the Janet Jackson nipple slip on stage. Oh, right. She's performing and that happens. And suddenly she's, you know, just sort of gone from the American psyche. That sort of thing seems to happen so, so quickly. People get so, so worried about it. I don't get it, though, because then people are also secretly obsessed. I mean, everyone is obsessed with sex. I mean, it's how we all got here, right? Like someone had sex and then we came out hello and then here we

are. It just goes on and on. We die out without it. I also think of people debating different types of sex in schools. That's such a debate with parents. What kids know or don't know and I think that's where you get into something like OnlyFans and people have such strong opinions on it here in America and yet it is used like pornography a lot. Yeah and I think because there's a repression they go to these very specific outlets like porn and OnlyFans and other places. It's like a secret. It becomes a kink because you can't just say it openly.

It's funny because I sort of clocked something coming into this. I've gone and spoken to people who are OnlyFans users in different ways and creating content. And then it occurred to me, it's a little bit like the situation we had with Waffle House, where I just realized as I've started recording with you guys, is I haven't tried OnlyFans. And I say that genuinely. It's like, I feel like I've consumed, I'm going to be honest, I've consumed a lot of pornography in my lifetime, but I haven't tried OnlyFans. Have either of you been on, have you paid someone to make content? I have not.

Rob, is that not, are you nodding your head yes or no? No, I am nodding no. I have a couple of friends that are on it though, so I know things about it from them. Sounds like a story, but no, I agree. But that's the other thing. If you're married or in a relationship, most people in America say it would be cheating to be on there. I bet a lot of people would say yes.

That is a very interesting question. And I also think if you're in a relationship, is it deemed somehow worse if you are on OnlyFans as opposed to a porn website? You know, is it different if you are paying a specific person for things as opposed to for free getting a lot of different people doing a lot of different things? Yeah, so Rob, if you found out Natalie was on OnlyFans,

she didn't have a page, but she was- For the record, I meant I have friends that are content creators, not friends that use it. I mean, you definitely have friends that use it as well. I'm I meant I have friends that are content creators not friends that use it. I mean you definitely have friends that use it as well. I'm sure I do have friends that use it. That's not what has been discussed. Well if she was using it and then you found out, do you feel like it was cheating? It's tricky.

It's weirder that it's an individual person and you're making requests but I think you can use it without doing that as well where it's like subscribing to a specific porn star that you like without having an individual relationship, right? Without talking to them? Yeah, I think that's where it starts to potentially cross the line, is that you're asking them directly for things that you specifically want to see or like what if Natalie's been asking you the whole relationship she's like Rob I just armpit photos yeah or even weirder like I just really want to watch someone pick their nose and then eat their boogers and then have sex and you're like Natalie the last time I'm not doing it for you well I mean not for you not for

anyone my body my choice. And then you're going through the creator card statements and you see only fans and then a hyphen and only fans perform his name and you go to that person's page and you see that specialty is nose picking. Well, but that would be the difference if their specialty is that and she's just watching them do that versus like she found someone and was like, Hey, I want you to make this video. Oh so it's the request.

Yeah I think so. It's the interactions happening between the two of them as opposed to finding generic content. Yeah because Natalie could go to Pornhub and look for some nose picking born and watch it that way. You're saying that's different to going to OnlyFans and putting in a request for someone to do that very same thing. Correct. What if you say no my body my choice I not doing it, I'll never do it. And then she says, well, can I go on OnlyFans and find someone who will do it? I think it's different if there's like a conversation and I'm consenting that I'm OK with it.

But would you ever think, huh, OK, there's enough distance there? Yeah, I think if it's not a secret and it's not this thing that is being kept, there's at least a conversation there of like, okay, cool. If you're requesting this, but then it's not turning into dialogue and conversation beyond that, that's where a relationship could form. Like that's where it starts to cross my boundaries. If the nose picker on OnlyFans, for instance, was me, that would be a potential problem. There's no different than like her going and asking one of our random friends to send a video of that to,

or meeting someone at a coffee shop and asking to pick their nose. Rob, what we're trying to do is we've got something to tell you. You're making videos, huh, David? You're making videos for a while now on OnlyFans, specifically for one customer, Nat underscore H. No, it's funny though, these situations. It's interesting. They are really interesting things to consider and I think OnlyFans brings out so many of

these things. And also I do think it's kind of dumb I haven't delved into OnlyFans as part of research for this episode. So after this Rob, I'll get the armchair expert credit card off you and maybe do some research for a part two. I also wonder if America, where it ranks on monogamy being the highest standard, I kind of feel that we are probably pretty high on that scale,

which is why sex is repressed. Yeah, and again, not to make this political, but again, that's why it's so weird with this election because there's been this whole criminal trial essentially about monogamy in a way, or about, you know, having sex outside of marriage, which I would have thought Americans would have responded to in a much more negative way. But we're still in the situation where so many people support a candidate who has done that thing.

So America's morals are so confusing. And I also think it's so obsessed with its morals around sex but when it comes to that actually playing out they don't know what to do it hypocritical that is the word. It's weird it's really weird this place for and I mean I find it interesting fascinating because I like trying to figure things out and I can't figure this out I don't think a lot of people can figure this out anyway should I play a little bit of this audio that I clicked it and see what't figure this out. I don't think a lot of people can't figure this out. Anyway, should I play a little bit of this audio that I collected and see what you make of it? Yes, please. I'm in the park with Sarah and we're discussing how those dumb social media names we gave ourselves when we were younger sometimes have this habit of sticking around.

I'm at Paco Waco Sarah, which is a very long name. I made the name in seventh grade. It was gmail account it just stuck so here it is. We're talking Instagram because it's how Sarah gets a lot of her only fans clients. They find her on social media then they find out she also has an only fans and that's where they go. I wanted to talk to an only fans creator because there are about two million of them and they're making content for the site's 420 million users who are on there each month. OnlyFans is a $5.6 billion industry and as someone who posts content on OnlyFans, Sarah is a part of it.

I started modelling when I was 16, the standard modelling. It got me through college, it didn't pay great. And then I did odd restaurant jobs, that sort of thing. Lots of service industry work. And then eventually journalism. And then I got a divorce. There's a tangent here that I'll save for another episode. Turns out her husband was in a cult. She just didn't know it at the time.

Anyway, leaving him was a big change for her. Got the divorce. It like crushed me financially. And I was like, okay, well, I can continue to make money for other people with my body like modelling. And I can continue to participate in this. I mean, it's sexual currency, like no matter what, like you go to a restaurant and if the waitress is pretty and flirts with you, you pay her more like it's everywhere. You go on a date and you pay for the bill. You expect something in return. I'm also a photographer so I can self-shoot. I take a lot of self-portraits. I know how to model and I know how to do communication pretty well. So I was like, fuck it, I'll start doing that myself. Why would I have someone else take money from me? I'm just

cutting right through the politeness of it all. I'm being like, you want to see me naked? Give me 80 bucks. Like, you know what I mean? it's easy straight forward. She started on OnlyFans about two years ago gently dipping her toes in first. Yeah I was definitely nervous I mean I started really quiet I built the page and I like would send it to people if they were like in my DMs hitting me up or something I'd be like I got this little thing I was not really public with it for probably the first month or two. Yeah, it was definitely a nerve-wracking thing the first day My mom texted me and she was like you started a fans only and I was like mom. It's only fans Sarah describes herself as a freelancer. She does a bit of writing some photography and works for some car magazines

She describes her only fans as a safety, a really hefty safety net. And she says the art of OnlyFans is sort of being able to tell who's there to spend money and how long they're going to stick around for, and then balancing all the things you need to do to be successful on there, from the photos to the videos to all the one on one chatting with her fans. There's a larger amount of just horny dudes who I don't really talk to. They show up, they buy stuff, they send me pictures of their dicks,

and then that's it. Oh. And then there's a much more time consuming, less lucrative mostly, but sometimes way more lucrative group that's lonely. And I think those people, there's like a carrot dangle type thing where they're like, if you keep talking to me, if you keep talking to me, I'll give you this much money.

And then you're like, okay, I did it. And then you'll get the money. And you're like, okay. But if you make them mad and they know they have the control of that, they're like, okay, well, if you don't talk to me all day, you don't get this money at the end of the day, right? And so that can be challenging. And I think for me, I just have to remember it's a business. I'm not going to please everyone all the time and if I lose some money for my sanity so I can go and hang out with my friends I'm going to do it. Her OnlyFans days are spent making generic content that people will want as well as custom videos for specific people which she charges more for.

For instance someone might want a video of her doing something with her armpit. The way she sees it, OnlyFans is a way for her to take the power back from men who might otherwise just be catcalling her. She's in charge. But the truth of the matter is I get harassed at least once a day. Some sort of thing happens and it's like you are pulling some power away from me and then with OnlyFans it's like they're doing that but they're paying me so I have like control and it's a lot better. It feels almost like a weird, twisted reclamation. I'm like, okay, this person at the gas station bothered me,

but you have to pay me to bother me. I mean, people are people. There's gonna be weird people. And a lot of them are super, super polite and super nice. And we have great dynamic and I have some people I wouldn't, it's not a friendship, but it's as close as it could be on a platform like that. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Support for Flightless Bird comes from Quince. I've got quite a few

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That's BetterHelp. H E L P dot com slash Bird. Talking to Sarah, I started to wonder about that other side to OnlyFans. It's a smaller side but it's still there. Males making content. Turns out producer Rob had a contact for a man called Jack Maddix, whose fan base is mostly gay men. I zoomed him just as he was getting ready for a shift at a bar in Philadelphia.

I like didn't even mean to get into porn. It came to me by accident. Somebody messaged me via Instagram because I did studio porn before I did OnlyFans. And usually it goes the other way around. I did all the big name studios and then I launched an OnlyFans. So I got reached out to it during the pandemic. Wasn't working. I do need to pay my bills.

This guy messaged me. He's a porn manager. He's like, hey, you got a great look. I think you would do this. I went over it with my boyfriend, who's now my husband. And I went over it with him at the time. And I was like, is this something that would bother you? Because I won't do it if it will. And he said, no. I was like, all right, I'm going to do it. Next thing I knew I was on a flight. And then I was working crazy. It was flight, shoot, flight, shoot, flight, shoot. I shot over a hundred films in the span of a year and I was just a little burnt out at that point. Jack said that his experience on the queer side of OnlyFans was making porn with other actors,

which his fans would then pay for. There was less solo stuff, but the solo stuff he did do always kept him slightly surprised. People would want me to like fart a lot. I sent like a lot of personal fart videos. They're very specific, like pump yourself full of air and fart right into the camera. A fan that I had met paid me very well to wear my biggest combat boots and squash his balls, like stomp really hard. And I watched him come after that. And that really surprised me because I know that pain of just being kicked in the balls.

And like, I stomped really hard so I was like wow this is different. Jack did OnlyFans for a couple of years, it got him through the pandemic and he's glad for the experience and not just for the money. For him it was a unique form of therapy of working through some of his own issues. I think it's like a season when it comes into your, you have to strike when it's hot. You have to be in the right space. It's mentally a little taxing. I found it quite liberating in many ways because prior to 2020 I had very dark experiences with sex, sexual assault when I was younger, I just had a lot of weird things when I was

a teenager that were really uncomfortable. So like when I started doing this, really everything's out there now. I just felt like, oh, okay. All that bad stuff was gone. And I really connected with my sexual self in a way that was healing, which like you don't need to go through that. You know, you don't need to go spread your legs on camera to heal from sexual trauma. But it did work for me in a lot of ways. But my advice to anybody that would want to get into that is to just make sure that it's your right season because you strike when the iron's hot and like anything else there's going to be the next person, there's going to be the next thing. Right now he's happy his season is over. He's studying pathobiology and heading to med school

next year. Now while researching the story I ran into a lot of people who used OnlyFans as a stopgap between other things. It's hard work keeping on top of it all, making the videos and talking to an endless stream of horned up fans. And this reminded me of something else Sarah had told me, about a sort of secondary market tied to OnlyFans, of agencies that help run other people's accounts, for a small fee of course. When I first started I was getting multiple DMs in my inbox from these agencies, and it's really hard to decide and decipher if they're real or if they're exploitative and strange. One of the agencies reached out to me and he FaceTimed me, the head of the agent, and it was like, okay, it's me, and my partner, who's this guy, gave me his phone number.

We had a phone call, and we have a team, and they said they were going to be the ones mostly running the account those other people are just going to do like project management type stuff and I was like I don't need to meet the project manager like you guys seem great it's completely screwed me over it was catastrophic for me. She thought having someone running her account would be helpful so-called chatters talking to men on her behalf so she had time to do other stuff. Instead the chatters the agency hired were all offshore in countries where wages were lower and English also wasn't the number one priority. Pretty soon it became obvious to her subscribers that they weren't talking to her, the person they'd signed up for, so Sarah promptly

fired her agency. Unfortunately that made the chatters unhappy. One specifically. One of the chatters posted on my main feed, this is not the real model, I'm a chatter. And that destroyed me for a couple months. I had to regain, it's actually me guys, I promise. I just tried it out, it didn't work, it was a hole, yeah. Sarah now runs everything herself. She's learned me guys. I promise. I just tried it out. It didn't work. It was a hole. Yeah, Sarah now runs everything herself

She's learned her lesson But I'd become fascinated by the side hustle of running someone else's account The so-called chat is employed to pretend to be someone else someone sexy There was a great piece in the August edition of Wired magazine about this called she contains multitudes of Wired magazine about this called She Contains Multitudes. It pointed out the obvious imbalance with 420 million active users per month talking to only two million content creators.

Even though that's a lot of creators, there's no way they can keep up with those hundreds of millions of fans. So a secondary market is created for chatters. And I found one who agreed to talk to me. So there was one guy, he probably spent a couple hundred bucks every day typically. He would send a video every day at the end of his sexting session with him on his knees on his carpet coming. And I just could not get over the fact that he was jizzing on his carpet every night, the same spot. And I remember one time just being like,

I wish I was your carpet, because I wanted him to like say something about it, but I didn't want to insult him obviously, because he was actually nice, but he didn't really say anything. And I was super upset because I was like, I just want him to say, ha ha babe, I clean it or something because it just really upset me.

More on that carpet and some other stories soon after I check in with Monica to make sure she's okay. Hi Monica, you okay? I'm great. This is so fascinating. It's a whole world out there. It is this whole alternate reality that people are in. I mean, I will say about the woman with the carpet, that wasn't a good approach because

that sounded like she's hot for it. That's what I heard too. Yeah. If it's like, I want to be your carpet, that's like, I want you to come on me, not your carpets dirty. If every day you're seeing this happen and you're seeing someone, this man ejaculate on the carpet, what are you going to say to him? You want to find out whether he's cleaning up or not.

What do you say to him so it doesn't sound insulting? I mean, well, first of all, I think you have to assume he's definitely not cleaning it up. Secondly, don't you have to be straightforward and ask? Or you could just make a joke about it, but there's no way he would hear, I want to be that carpet, and think that he has to answer for it being dirty or not.

I'm not understanding the leap. Yeah, I think Kara was on the wrong trajectory there with the question. I think maybe just honesty being like, I'm still. Yeah, I love seeing that for the hundredth time. Do you ever clean up the carpet? Like what happens when guests come over? Is that an issue? Yeah, I think that would be a more straightforward sort of a case.

Monica, I'm curious or, you know, Rob, this could be a scenario for you, although I feel like we've really bullied you with the scenarios thus far. If you were paying someone to have horny conversations with you and they're not the person that you think you're talking to, but you're still getting off on it. Is that a problem? Would you feel ripped off with your $10 monthly fee or is a fact that you, it's like being the matrix, isn't it? It's like a happy being in the matrix, but it's not real, but you don't know it.

So who cares? This is complicated. Well, first of all, yes, I think it's unethical. Cause you'd be talking to someone, a different person, they could be a different sex, they could be a different age, all these things. Yeah, and you're paying. You are buying a product. So if they're not being transparent, that's very, very unethical.

It would be like me sending my newsletter out and having someone else write it and not telling them. Exactly. It would be that, right? And I would feel that would be ethically so dicey. And even if they liked what they were reading, that's not what they're buying. They're buying your thoughts. Yeah. And your writing.

And so, yes, it is very similar to that. So I think it's unethical. However, you're already using this platform to get some sort of pleasure, something. And so if you're getting it, is a like what's the harm but I stand by I think it's unethical and I'd be pissed because I think when you are and like look maybe I'm just speaking for myself we're in a horny mood you are so stupid as well like people do stupid things when they're horny and it is an interesting thing we're like just going on the stats of how many people you know

you sign up for a popular person on only fans you're having these in-depth conversations with them all day long to think that that's them when they're also doing this with 10,000 other people what world are you living in but i think guys especially we can be really dumb and we just assume that it's the thing it'd be one thing if they said openly hey hey, you may get me, you may not, and you're rolling the dice there. But I mean, it's straight up lying. I mean, it's catfishing.

What I do like about it is that it provides work for people that might not want to get naked in front of a camera, but they're really good at horny conversations. It gives them a job. That's nice, I suppose. I don't think it's unethical actually as the chatter. I think it's unethical as the- The creator who's hired them to do it.

Yes. Yeah, you're bang on. Yeah. If someone likes having sexy conversations, but yet doesn't want to be the person, wants to be a ghostwriter basically that's fine. The other thing I found interesting about it is that from what I can tell and again I haven't talked to a lot of people about this but a lot of the female stuff is just solo just a woman doing whatever. The male stuff and all of the queer stuff it's more like regular porn where people are here to always get other people in the scenario and shoot almost like more regular kind of porn like scenarios

Which I found really interesting it seemed like a lot more effort because I think the joy of only fans is you can just shoot it Alone in your room. Yeah, but that's another ethical question. Then do you have to pay the person you're bringing in? Totally, I assume you absolutely do in those situations And I guess yeah, if you have balls to, then you need someone else's balls that you can't crush one's own balls. You know, you need someone else in that scenario. That would be hard to do. Yeah.

Yeah, that would amaze me. I mean, anyone male who's playing sport at school and sort of been hitting the testicles, it's sort of a feeling I would avoid at all costs. But of course, for some out there, it's okay. It feels like that would have like ruptured his testicle. Stomping on it.. Stomping is rough. I mean, they can go through a testicles can go through a lot. I mean, they are just hanging out there on the outside, aren't they?

I mean, they do go through a lot of trauma, but the testicles hardier than you think the pain is there, but they're squishy. And I think they can go through a lot. This is where the conversation about when does a kink cross the line? Into something damaging potentially like or something medically iffy. Yes or dangerous or harmful. And if everyone's consenting, does that make it fine? Even though like what if it's like my kink is I want you to hit me over the head with

a baseball bat until I'm unconscious and everyone's consenting. I stumbled on this really unusual sort of subgroup of people a couple of years ago who their kink is having bits of their body removed. Their whole thing is I don't like my arm up to the elbows, you know, or that kink is pirate. So they want a peg leg. So then they have to find someone who will, you know, it's difficult if you want to remove your leg below the knee it's a really difficult thing to do you need someone to help you and so one of the solutions these people found you can't go to a doctor. was one story I came across where someone had kind of maimed their leg enough to by the time they went to the emergency room, they had to amputate it. Oh my God. That's the way they got their way. So look, an extreme example of what you're talking about.

It's like, at what point does someone need to step in? Should there be rules? Like it's, I don't know the answer to any of it. Is it documentary? I think it was a British documentary about guys that kink was just having really big testicles and so they would go and inject their testicles with like various liquids to make them. I'm talking like the size of like two basketballs like really insane stuff.

I'll send you the link. Oh no, I don't need to see that. You can't do that. You can't go into the doctor's office and sort of get a medical professional to do it. And so that inject all sorts of stuff that would leak into other parts of the body and would, at one point, killed someone. And that turned into this whole other story. Anyway, for Doctorate Only fans isn't this crazy, but yeah, it does raise an interesting point.

You've got someone stomping on your testicles. I wouldn't be comfortable stomping on another man's testicles, put it that way. I would be worried about their health and about the long term benefits or lack thereof. Yeah, but if they wanted you to crack an egg on their head, you'd do it all day long. To Russian, yeah, that's my thing. That's a whole new angle to that. Stay tuned for more Plightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird.

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. This episode of Flightless Bird is brought to you by booking.com. Booking.year. It's finally time for summer travel and I am pumped because I like travelling. I like travelling for myself and I like travelling for this show. Yes, it is so fun. I do get very excited about summer travel. What's your favorite place to travel to in America

that's not going home? Like where would you, New York? New York. Yeah, yeah. I think I am gonna go back in the summer. Very exciting. Booking.com offers so many possibilities across the US for all the travelers you wanna be. Booking.com's wide breadth of places to stay

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As Sarah found out in part 1, OnlyFans agencies can be dicey. A lot of them use a workforce not based in America, often in lower wage countries like the Philippines. It's not unusual for some chatters to work brutal 70 hour weeks with hourly wages as low as two American dollars. On reddit the only fans chatter sub is an interesting and sobering read a post from five months ago I found now deleted read I just want to say that us chatters are not robots we're humans we feel we have feelings we have problems

we have family like you why pay us only a dollar fifty to three dollars an hour and make us handle multiple accounts and expect us to do as you say? In third world countries power outages happen frequently and you tell us to find a way or fire us just because we can't control what's happening around us. In the third world country we do not have a fast internet like you guys, how do you expect us to reply fast? This post goes on and on just setting the situation that this particular chatter found themselves in. Their post ends in all caps. If you guys can't understand this do not hire us Filipinos because

we cannot stand agencies bosses who exploit us. But not all chatters are in this position. Some agencies hire people at better rates some of them employing Americans like Kara not her real name. some of them employing Americans like Cara, not her real name. So I live in Detroit. I previously worked as an OnlyFans chatter for two years. Cara is no longer a chatter. She's got a new gig now. But she agreed to share her experience with me to help paint a picture of what it's like to pretend to be someone else.

It works in a few different ways. So in my situation, I was working for a small team. We would range from two girls to six girls who we would represent. They were all fairly mainstream porn actresses. Some of them very mainstream, others maybe were just getting started. And we would run their accounts for them. So we would essentially pretend to be them and interact with them, kind of arrange their Skypes, handle all their sexting appointments, get the men who are online excited, basically

just spam them with content, always try to upsell them to do custom videos, custom voice notes. It's a lot of dick ratings. So men will pay for you to rate their dick. I would say that's the main thing you're doing all night, is trying to get them to send a picture of their penis and then you send a rating. And whether or not it's good or bad, you kind of have to vibe that out in terms of if they want a good rating

or if they want you to like embarrass them. I was fascinated by the fact a big part of her job was just receiving dick pics. I guess men just really like sending pictures of their dick. Back in 2019 the Journal of Sex Research published a study about dick pics and it suggested the main reason men send them is because of a transactional mindset as in if I send you some of my nude body you should show me some of your nude body. The study also found men who seen unsolicited dick pics demonstrated higher levels of narcissism and hostile sexism. They do want you to rate it and it's always funny so you would have a standard of what

they would rate it by like girth, cleanliness or I think I would say maintenance most of the time. How many dick pics do you think you've seen in your career as a chatter? A lot. I mean I'd probably see at least 10 a night for two years. I worked probably like three to four nights a week and sometimes way more. I really think I could have diagnosed some serious skin issues. Let's not go there. you can imagine. Anyway, Kara got paid hourly for her work as a chatter, which as I learnt was a lot of rating penises because as well as selling penises, men love having them rated. So I worked for the small group,

there was one girl who ran it. I got paid hourly, so I got paid $20 per hour, and then we'd get bonuses based on how much the guy upsells. How did you get the job? Was it a friend of a friend? Was it a listing? It's a really unique thing to be doing. Yeah, honestly, I found it completely randomly, and I had never been on OnlyFans. I didn't really know really little about it. I had previously done phone sex for some time

when I was living in Australia, actually, during COVID, because I really needed money. Jason Vale What were you doing in Australia? This is relevant to my interests, very close to New Zealand. Emily Johnson Yeah, I lived there for six years, and I did my studies there. I had a really bad private US student loan to go to college in Australia. So all of a sudden COVID was happening, and obviously the Australian dollar crashed. And I was like, oh, how can I make US dollar? Oh, student loan to like go to college in Australia. So all of a sudden COVID was happening and obviously the Australian dollar crashed and I was like, oh, how can I make US dollar? Oh,

I'll do phone sex. And it worked out really well because I would often get callers who were American who were calling this phone sex line and they were always really happy because I was always really awake because it was midday for me and like usually they're calling people and they're like dead-ass asleep. With time zones in her favor she excelled at talking dirty over the phone, sometimes for minutes, sometimes for hours. My first call I remember was two hours long which is not common at all. Most of your phone calls are like 5 to 10 minutes and this man for an hour was just edging I'm assuming and just wanted to listen to me scream. I was like this is really exhausting.

While she was screaming in the Australian Outback, she learned a lot of skills that helped when it came to OnlyFans, especially when it came to talking to people. I mean there's a reason OnlyFans chatters are called chatters. I mean, a lot of the OnlyFans girls will offer that as well, either through Skype audio or they'll use one of those hotlines. It's a really good way, I think, for them to also make fans. One thing I found, it was really easy to get regular callers. My first two weeks then I had guys who would call every day for five to ten minutes, but they would call every day for five to ten minutes, but they would call every day because they want to talk to the same person.

For her, OnlyFans came with a bunch of advantages over straight phone sex lines. Mainly, she was more in control and there were more protections in place. There were less shocks in her day. It was definitely better than phone sex because when you're on a phone sex hotline, you pick up and you don't really know what somebody's going to say to you. And it's a lot more personal than a screen being in between because you would pick up and on your listing, you might have like, I don't do X, Y or Z. And then the first thing out of their mouth is something pretty heinous. Oh, this is one of the other reasons actually why OnlyFans is better than the phone sex hotline was on the phone sex hotline Men could send me pictures and there was no blur over it

So I would get pictures from these men that were them and their wife in bondage or honestly worse pictures of their families Do not want to see that but on OnlyFans It's at least blurred first OnlyFans has a lot of things you can and cannot do on it anyways, and the girls don't want to get in trouble. So they're pretty strict. You definitely can't talk about pee or poop at all. People talk around it. They'll say things like water works.

Poop's definitely just like a no though. Are the rules logical or are they sort of America's weird puritanical coming in? I think most of them are pretty rational. A lot of times it blocks you from using certain words. You can't use the word school, you can't use the word young, you can't use the word meet because they obviously don't want escorting on the platform which definitely does happen,

which I don't have a problem with, but obviously they don't want it on their platform for probably a multitude of legal reasons. But yeah, you can't use that word. Most of them are pretty logical. I think the P thing, I'm not into it, but you know, I don't think it's that bad. Take me through what it's like to sort of jump in and inhabit someone else's persona. When I first started, I was only running two girls accounts. It definitely was important to kind of sound like them. One of them definitely had strong opinions on whether you say dick or cock and really wanted that to be super consistent. Didn't like internet speak at all. She was like,

I don't use it so you can't use it, that kind of thing. Other girls really don't care though. So it ranges. And the audience, which is over 60% male they mostly don't cotton on to the fact they're not chatting to the model they're looking at. You'll definitely get message from guys and be like hey I know you're not blank can you let them know this? A lot of people are very with it they're on Reddit they know if you go on Reddit the girls have different reviews so people will be like I think that they have chatters, I think somebody's running

their account for them, it's not really them. Other times I worked for some smaller girls accounts too and they definitely think they're still talking to the person. Sometimes they will catch on especially if a new person gets hired and don't check the notes on the person, and don't know what their dog's name is all of a sudden, or don't know what they do for a living, and you're supposed to know that. So there is a lot of relationship building there

to avoid that from happening, because yeah, a lot of people still think that they're chatting to them, which I think is wild, because even my friends who have OnlyFans, who maybe don't have that that many fans still have their friend do it for them. Why did you stop? I didn't need the money anymore. I got a better full-time job. And for two years, I was doing it pretty much every single weekend. And it's a lot. It's a lot to be like really glued to your screen like that. It's a lot to take in. It's a lot of porn because you're also selling their full porn videos.

And after a while I do wonder what is that doing to my brain? And I'm not really sure. It definitely varied. I think it took a lot of sexual energy away because I was just consumed with it so much. While I was doing it, I definitely had a more negative opinion of men overall. And honestly, I think it was less because of the dick pic thing. It wasn't all the fans because it definitely also varied by girl, like what are their specific fans like.

But some girls have fans who are real assholes and are really cheap and are calling you a bitch or a cunt, especially if a girl doesn't get them what they want in time or what they've decided that they've paid for and just that kind of entitlement got really old. But yeah, some guys would just be like randomly you're a f**king b**ch and it's just like okay well even if it is through a screen I don't really want to deal with this and also just f**k off. And with that sentiment in mind I just had one final question left for Kara. And with that sentiment in mind, I just had one final question left for Kara. As someone who'd spent years talking to men, talking to men who thought they were talking to someone else the whole time.

What a weird job. Did you come away from this with any thoughts about American men after dealing with all of these people? I mean, I think it was just like, wow, everyone's so lonely, mostly. It really is loneliness for a lot of people, especially the big spenders. They are talking to you all day. They are spending a ton of money on these women in some cases. And it's like, why are you doing that? And the only thing I would have is that they're lonely.

I'm sorry to end on such a downer, but American men are probably no surprise, lonely. No, I'm an American man. Am I an American man? I'm lonely. We're all lonely. Yeah, I think men are lonely in general, but also definitely here. Just so much typing as opposed to just images. And that's where these chatters come in because that's the time consuming part of the gig.

Yeah, and I can imagine you would fully get desensitized, slash, I have no energy to invest in a sexual relationship of my own when that's what you're doing all day. Totally. And I think once a pandemic, she, you know, get other work and other, you know, the world started opening up again. Yeah, she just sort of had enough of it, but it was the perfect insight into like what that world was like, cause she did it solidly for years. And the thing that surprised me was the, I guess it's that transactional nature, just how I was really fascinated by how males

have this urge to send a dick pic. Like That's something I hadn't thought about. And I was like, you poor woman, that being part of the gig, that's so annoying. That's what I heard from both of my friends on OnlyFans, that it's a lot of dick pic ratings. Wow. I mean, that is part of the culture now, I guess. I just thought people would want other people's nude bodies. I didn't think that this transactional nature of sending Rome, but I guess that's part of the danger and excitement of it all that comes into it.

Well, it is and I think even deeper than that and this is a bummer, but I think is true. Sex is a lot about approval. Your own approval. Percentage-wise, I think it's often more about that than it is the other person. Yeah, I think that's fair. It comes down to what we talked about another episode about, I said, a little brother energy, right? Pick me, you know, I'm OK. Like you've had sex with me, so I'm OK.

Like, give my dick a good rating. Although she did say for some people, they wanted to be humiliated and told they had like a very bad growth stick. My male friend that's on it, he's straight and he said he gets a lot of requests from gay men asking him to say derogatory things to them. Ah, that's sad. How are people interesting? Okay, we have to talk about pee and poop. What the fuck?

I'm shocked that that's banned. Me too. Especially pee. Yeah, pee seems harmless. It is common. So I jumped on the OnlyFans Reddit about this. It is a super unusual thing. And apparently it's because it's a violation of federal law because you get into obscenity law.

And so pornography is legal, but obscenity is this other thing. And obscenity in pornography is things like peeing and bodily fluids, blood, pee, semen. That's okay. That's not obscene apparently. But yeah, when you get into human waste or human blood, that gets into obscenity. And that's where it becomes a federal matter. And that's why OnlyFans has to ban it. So I'm sorry, Monica,

but OnlyFans might not be where you get your stuff that you want. It's not for me. Now I know. You have to go somewhere else to get your poop videos. Yeah. I just find it so weird where again, back to what we were talking about earlier in the episode, where the line is getting drawn to me, drawing the line on pee and poop, I mean, I know you're saying that's federally mandated, but versus

slamming your foot on someone's balls is like what? Yeah. It feels like some random person has come in and drawn a very random line in the sand right? Yeah. And gone like this is okay but this isn't okay. You can see some side boob but you can't see a nipple on stage. Right. I've always thought thinking about sex and bodies, the female nipple is always the thing

that just sums it all up about how crazy these laws are that you can have a male nipple on a beach and it's fine. The female nipple and suddenly you're violating the terms and conditions of being on a beach in America and a lot of places in the world. It's wild. It is wild. It'd be one thing if yours looked completely different, but it's the same thing. Pretty similar. Nipples, nipples and nipple. We've all got them. Yeah, just these odd rules that are put out there.

I was very confused originally when she was talking about meat. You can't use the word meat because I was thinking like lamb chop or something. I was like, what's wrong with that? But I thought about cannibalism. I was like, oh, it's because of like cannibalism or something. That would be an obscene. That would be an obscenity law. But it is that thing of, yeah, not turning into solicitation, that not being allowed. And I guess that also bleeds into this other problem that some creators and chatters

have where the people consuming the content think that they are in a relationship with them. And then the natural thing is you want to go and meet up with them. And I remember that dumb mindset the first time. So this is slightly, I was, I went to a strip club in my younger days, but I was in Vegas and I remember very specifically thinking, this just said so much about the male brain and certainly my brain. I was like, Oh, I think the stripper likes me. Like they actually like me.

Oh my God, David. Which is so deeply, but I remember thinking it. I'd had a few drinks and I was like, wow, this person really likes me. This hot person likes me. That's how the whole system works. And I think on OnlyFans, there is that tendency where some people think,

oh, I'm actually in a relationship with this person. It's not transactional. And so a question like, can we meet up somewhere becomes something people actually want to put forward. Wow, this is such a fascinating topic and I love that it came from Flights of Fancy. Yeah I want to give a big shout out Sarah reached out for that episode. She was the one that I met in the park who had a very funny Instagram name and so yeah

she told more of a story and then I just found all these other amazing people in this world and it's an interesting world. And Favidu part two, as I say, I will jump on there and have some firsthand experience. Maybe I'll join up and do what the person in that wide article I mentioned did and become a chatter. Yeah, hired by one of these agencies and just see what that experience is like. Have you thought about becoming a creator yourself? You're a public figure. I hear that's not it's not for me.

The New Zealand-ness in me makes me far too shy to even consider something like that. But I would do a chatter and I can't wait till a net underscore H comes on requesting some, some booger content. That's what I'll be waiting for. Fingers crossed. Well, we're definitely more American and more sexual. I hope this made everyone very horny. I hope people did. Well, God, I was going to say, I hope people heeded the warning and didn't listen

around their kids, but that might be my American repression. I think maybe it is. And maybe me even bringing up the content warning, maybe that is a sign that I, David Ferry, are becoming more American, more puritanical, more worried about sex. Block the kids' ears, don't let them hear it. Don't, can't. So that was OnlyFans. That was a great episode.

Look, if it all goes belly up, there's always OnlyFans. That's what I always think. That's right. That's good to know in this life. So yeah, OnlyFans is going to be our last Flightless Bird Under the Armshare feed. So reminder to go to David's new feed. The link is bit.ly slash flightlessbirdpod. So bit.ly slash flightless bird pod. That's all the places that you can listen to. Next Tuesday's episode goes out. New feed, sign up, all there. And you can just go wherever you get your, like go if you're on Spotify or on Apple, whatever, and just type it in. Just type in flightless bird. It's easy. Me and Rob are going to be producing that show and every week I will

continue to dive into the depths of American culture. It's good sides, it's bad sides and it's in between sides. But we've had some rollicking times, Monica. We've discovered some shit. I mean I still feel like my heart is recovering from that frozen foods dinner at your house. You know? Yeah. God, what a time. You know, I feel guilty because I did end up throwing so much of that in the garbage. Yes, so I'm not gonna be on, I mean, maybe I'll pop on, who knows, who knows what you'll be doing.

Maybe I'll pop on in the future, but I won't be a consistent member of the new feed. So I wanted to ask you about your favorite episodes we've done. Can you even remember? I think if you stand out, I think leafblowers is really fun because episodes that seem to strike a chord with people in the show and not necessarily ones you'd expect, but leafblowers, everyone really had some strong thoughts. Toilets was good investigating the water level of American toilets.

I enjoyed that. I like it when we hit the road with the show and we'll continue to do that. I liked being in Florida because Florida is full of a lot of interesting people. And I remember going out with a gladesman out into the Everglades as he talked about wrestling snakes and stuff. And I love that. I was like, I am in America. This wouldn't happen in New Zealand. I'm out in the Everglades with the man who wrestles snakes.

And that's pretty cool. Florida. Do you know what that is? Florida. No, what is, what the hell is that? It's a Taylor Swift song. Oh, I'm sorry. I loved our Taylor Swift episode.

Yeah. It looks like it didn't really stick. What about you? Like, I feel like we also enjoy very different things. What has jumped out at you and maybe what ones have you been like, Oh God, what is David going on about? Sometimes you present the topic and I do think what is this, but then it always ends up super fun.

Always a fun chat. The ones where we did excursions were great. Yes. Frozen food was super fun. And when you went to Disney as well, we went to Disney. Disney, Disney, teaching you how to drive. Oh yeah, that wasn't good for me. That was a couple of parters.

You're a disgusting car filled with shit, covered in dust. God, that car has gone through so much. I feel like it's kind of the mother Teresa of cars because it gives and gives and takes nothing for itself. And all of you guys have used this car up and then it could not hold battery anymore. It's just sitting, it's sitting in my house out of battery and then I had to get it re-registered. It's been a whole. And then I had to get it re-registered. It's been a whole ordeal.

I had to get it re-registered, but in order to get re-registered, I had to get a smog test, but then I went to go get a smog test and it was dead. So then we had to jump in, have that running, go get the smog test. It failed the smog test. I mean, it's been through the rear. It's a mess. So it's just sitting there, this relic gathering more and more dust. It is currently, as of I think two days ago, re-registered Smog check and it's ready for

its next new adventure, next new owner, next new person to give to. I'm glad I got to ride Shotgun, you know? It was quite a beast. Yeah. So that was very fun. Yeah. It's just been very cool getting to see you become more American over time. I mean, you've become less of a tall poppy.

Okay. You become a shorter poppy. You've become more confrontational. You've become more sexist. You become more confrontational, you've become more sexist, you've become more capitalist, you've become... All those things, all those things have been brought out in me. But you're, you know what? You also dream bigger.

Oh, thanks Monika. Thanks Mon. I dream of owning multiple possums, a lot of cats and dogs, all that kind of stuff. I just got a vision of all those baby possums. Although I did see the thing you posted that that episode helped. Yeah, it was really nice. A lot of people out to the possums episode

sent in photos of just possums that literally rescued the week that episode aired. And they knew they weren't scared of the possum. They were like, oh, we can approach the possum. We've got people going through possum road. Cool. Checking for babies. People are out there on the highway, you know, running onto the road. If anyone gets gangrene or scurvy or something, feel free to sue David.

As they go through road. Yeah, please do be careful out there. Yeah. God, please. Yeah, please do be careful out there. Yeah. Dear God, please. Mm-hmm. I really like talking to your parents as well about the Y2K bug,

because your mom worked on that. That was really fun. That was a live show we did. It was for the live show. Yeah, that was really cool, talking to your mom. That was for Armchair in Dangerous. Oh, maybe it was. Maybe it was for that show.

Yeah, it was. Made an impact. They're nice people. Dude, your mom's cool. You ran into my family actually the other day at mess hall. Yeah, you were having dinner. We were having dinner next to her. I looked up and there you were and there was your entire family. All these people I'd heard about.

Your brother was there, your dad was there, your mom was there. It was really nice. Yeah. And you recognized me, which was shocking. I did. I didn't sit the whole meal there and not seeing you, which I think all that sums it up. You've cut through the face blindness. Oh, that's so cute. That is huge. Monica, up to three or four years,

I recognize your face when I see you in public. That's all I really need. I feel like I can really go out on a high now after that. Except I do wonder, have you added me into your phone? Oh, the message I send when the plane's going down? Yeah. To die? I haven't touched the list since we raised it.

No one knew it was on there. I'm just, it's out of laziness more than anything. Okay, well, I just told you my heart might explode at any moment, so it might be the time. It is my birthday. I think it sounds like you're going to be working on your list when you're exploding, what you've got to give out. I know. I mean, I think about this.

You either have to be very meticulous about creating this list or it's no one. And I have no one. I'm going the no one route. Like no one and I have no one. I'm going the no one route. Like no one gets a note from me. I also think it's something you decide as the plane's going down. The name will enter your brain at that point.

You will know whether it's this person or that person and that's who you send your final message to. But then there's no time. Yeah, look. Hopefully we never have to do this. If you have wood nearby, everyone should knock on it. Are you confessing your love at this point, David? Like you're realizing who you should have and then you do it? No, this is essentially what it is. I think it probably would be if you're going down, the person you text probably

is that person you love and maybe they hasn't even been acknowledged and maybe that's the person you send it to. David, no. How about you think in your living time here about who that person is and then tell them while you have the chance. Oh my god, what would be the point of that having a happy life? You're not American. I take it all back. You can't take the Kiwi out of a Kiwi. You know, we're always gonna be flightless down deep. It's true. How sweet. Well, I mean, is there anything else?

Yeah, I just feel like I've had a lot of adventures and thank you for joining me on those adventures. And there are a lot of adventures to come because I've discovered that America is very big. It's a very big place. And when we started the show, I was sort of thinking, will we ever run out of ideas? And it's like, oh no, hell no. It's just endless.

You should see the Google doc of stuff, places I need to go, things I need to investigate. It's endless and it's terrifying. Yeah. Do you want to drop any hints? Well, what I found out the other day is that slime, you know like slime that kids are obsessed with. Yes. It was started in America, it was sort of invented as a toy here and then Nickelodeon

through gunking slime on kids, that sort of took it to the world. And so I thought of this because I was in New Zealand a couple of months ago and all my littlest niece wanted was slime. And as we were getting the slime, I was looking at this disgusting slime that every kid is obsessed with and a lot of adults and I realized on it, this is America, my niece is squeezing America in her hands. And so I'm going to go and look at slime and why slime is such a big deal and very certainly pop cultural origins

and it's all in the United States of America. So I'm excited to investigate slime. That sounds fun. Yeah, it definitely is a rite of passage to go through a slime phase here. Rob, did you have gack? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we were gack.

What did you say gack? Like that's a normal thing. Gack's better than slime. It's less messy. I think it contains its form a little better. That's true. It's a type of slime, but it's of our generation. It was the big thing, GAC. Now it's more homemade slime.

I feel like people are making it a lot. People are making it. There are these amazing TikTok accounts and Instagram accounts of people with custom slime and you look at it and it's just beautiful. You've got this urge, you just want to reach out and touch it. It's something about it because slime is disgusting. It's a snail crawling across the ground and leaving this slimy trail that you don't want

to touch and yet slime can also be this really attractive thing that every part of your fiber wants to grab it and squeeze it, you know? Yeah, I mean, maybe it represents us having access to the gross parts of ourselves. Is that because we're all slimy inside? We're all slimy inside, but also in our private lives, as we just listened to on OnlyFans, we have weird thoughts, we have weird desires. And that's okay. We've all got things.

Yeah, I was just editing an episode of Armchair Anonymous and in it, I say out loud, I keep this in because I'm very vulnerable. I was like, my fingers smell. And then like, then we start talking to someone so it's a big cliffhanger. And then we come back and I said, oh, I didn't say why my fingers smell.

It's because I've been touching my foot this whole time. And then I smelled my fingers. They smelled like sweaty foot. Yeah. But then there's something we like about that. We like weird shit. And so maybe slime is like a safe way to explore that. I like that theory a lot.

It's like smelling that fart under the bed sheets. You know, it's disgusting, but you want to do it. What is that? Oh, that is sick. Isn't it? Cause it's always like your own is so satisfying, but someone else's is a lot more disgusting. Partners somewhere between, I think. It's weird.

I wonder if evolutionarily it's like, we need to know our own fart smell. In case if it's wildly off We know something's wrong. Yeah completely. There's lots of things to push into and investigate here So that'll be that'll be a future slime Cool Episode I've got a lot of things so stay tuned my god. That would be fun I'm excited to tune in and Stay tuned.

My God, that will be fun. I'm excited to tune in. And this was such a fun ride that took a lot of turns and we learned so much and it has been really, really fun. So I do thank you. No, thanks for having me. And yeah, the show will continue on next Tuesday, but the trick is it's just going to be on this new flightless bird feed. It won't be on the armchair expert feed.

So ideally people listening on the armchair expert feed will also start listening on the flightless bird feed. They'll make that jump to the new feed and have both things going. Go check it out. Yeah, so just plugging... You know one thing New Zealanders are bad at doing? If ever I have to feel like I'm plugging something, every part of my core wants to shrink into the ground. It's hard It's so weird. It's such a weird thing, but I want people to keep listening to flightless birds So here's my plug just go to any podcast platform search for flightless bird. It'll be there

That's where you listen to it from now on And if you're bad at searching because I know technology can be hard if you go to the website bit.ly because I know technology can be hard. If you go to the website bit.ly slash flightless bird pod so bit.ly slash flightless bird pod we've listed them all there where you can keep listening to the show so come over if you don't come over be a disaster so please come to the new feed that will be wonderful. Well thanks Mon. Thank you. Mon is Mon okay? Mon what the hell was that? Monica thanks Monica. You've said it twice. I don't know what's going on. I got it.

Now that you recognize my face, you're allowed. I'll give you the pass. Thanks for being my guide thus far. And we'll catch up soon. It's your birthday today, by the way. Happy birthday as we record this. Thank you. It is my birthday and I will continue to follow this flightless bird in my ears.

And I'm very excited to see what you do. Send me your abuse via text if you disagree with what I'm saying. I will. If you're like, what the hell is that? Just text me. Don't you worry. You'll be getting texts. Okay. Okay. Bye. Bye!