Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: Pornography

Episode Date: September 27, 2022

This week on Flightless Bird, David Farrier sets out to explore America’s adult film industry, which has its heart in California’s San Fernando Valley. In this episode Farrier heads for a mansion in the hills of Calabasas to attend an adult film shoot, hoping to understand why Americans spend an average of 9 minutes and 44 seconds on porn sites at a time. David meets a porn director also called “David” to ask why they still have all that dialogue and plot in amongst all the sex, before chatting with porn stars Hadley and Lucas about the joys, trials, and tribulations of their unique job. At the end of the day, David sits down for 45 minutes as the actors all have sex with each other and tries to come to a conclusion about what this all means. David also meets one of the (now adult) stars of the popular 90s sitcom “Boy Meets World,” to find out why Mailand Ward decided to make a late entry to the adult film industry. They discuss her new book “Rated X” and the challenges and misconceptions of the porn world. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America, and I want to grasp what makes this country tick. What are its loves, its passions, its obsessions? Well, one of them is pornography. Last year, Pornhub released figures which showed the United States was the country with the highest daily traffic to Pornhub, with the UK hot on its heels. Americans spent an average of 9 minutes and 44 seconds on the site each time. People in Wyoming spent the longest, over 11 minutes. Colorado and

California spent the least amount of time, at around 8 and 9 minutes respectively. In and out, very efficient. The most popular category? Big ass, up 314% on 2020. The number one search term in America on the site? Hentai, replacing lesbian from the previous year. Over 10,000 hardcore porn movies are shot each year in the valley here in California, where porn as we know it was born. My point is, Americans love porn. New Zealand doesn't even feature on any of the Pornhub statistics. I want to understand America's relationship to pornography and how it's changed over the years. So, lower those lights and get ready to concentrate for longer than 9 minutes and 44 seconds, because this is the porn episode.

Wow. Big butts. That's my first thought. I feel inadequate. As a category. That's what people want last year. Maybe this year they don't want big butts. That's my first thought. I feel inadequate. As a category. That's what people want last year. Maybe this year they don't want big butts. They might have moved on.

The year before, lesbian. Okay, yeah. What did you say? There was one word that I kind of missed. I got confused. Did you say like pentai? Pentai. What's that?

That's sort of, from what I understand of it, I already instantly sound like I watch it all the time. No, no, no. You're an expert. It's like Japanese animated tentacle porn. There's always like an octopus involved, tentacles going into different orifices. Oh my God.

It's really visceral. I think often animated because it's not actual octopus and people. So it's really, I guess it's full on animated. I might be insulting the genre and Japan by fucking this up, but I'm pretty sure that's what it is. Wow. Interesting. Okay. Yeah.

So hentai, big butts, lesbian. I don't fit any of those categories. And so I feel pretty inadequate and upset. I think that's okay. It just means that American men aren't seeking you out on Pornhub. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. But they aren't seeking me out. Oh, at all?

Yeah. Oh, no. Because they don't have any of those three qualities. I think if you started living your life by altering your body so that you're like the current category on Pornhub, I think things could go really wrong. You know what? We can end the episode. This is literally the problem. This is actually what I just did is exactly the problem.

I think, yeah, it probably is, right? It's like people watch porn and they think that is what I want. And that's what should be reality. That's the ideal. A benchmark in this. In every episode of Flightless Bird we do, if I check my direct messages afterwards, I really enjoy doing that because I can see what people are saying. But every episode, I will miss something that someone deems incredibly important.

You can't cover everything. You can't. So I was like, why didn't you mention so-and-so? Why didn't you talk about this TikTok person? And I know in pornography, we're definitely going to miss issues that people find incredibly important. So as a disclaimer at the top, we're going to miss things. What is your initial ethical and moral thoughts about pornography? I think up until recently, my thought on pornography is, sure, great.

It's not for me, I will say. I have tried and it doesn't do much for me but i've never had a problem with anyone else using it looking at it i don't think there should be shame around it it can be hot to watch other people yeah and it's been around it's not like it's a recent phenomenon there's been erotica and nudity for people to look at and be turned on for thousands of years. Yes. I think the problem nowadays is that especially young people are doing what I did. They are comparing themselves to porn. People who watch it have a very fucked up sense of what sex is or what intimacy is. You can't meet any of those standards. No.

So the real thing is a disappointment. There's so much out there, which I know you're going to dive into, but so many stats and so many things about boys getting violent or pounding so hard. Yeah. I mean, what you see in porn, right? it's the extremes of things. And it's often males being in weird, insane power dynamics with things and lots of strangling and slapping. And if kids are watching it and going, oh, this is what I need to emulate. Right. Then that's what we're going to do. And I guess if I was going to be as prude as I could be about it, I'm a pretty liberal person, obviously. But yeah, I think the idea of kids watching it and thinking, oh, this is what sex is.

To be honest, kids are doing some freaky shit now. A young guy gets his first girlfriend and he's like, oh, we're going to do anal. Immediately. Yeah, straight to that. And it's like, oh, should we go straight to that? Or maybe it's like, let's make out for a bit first. Do we have to do anal immediately? Right.

And I think that's where things become a little bit, if I was going to be a prude, that's where I would step in and go, yeah, I think it for a bit first. Do we have to do anal immediately? Right. And I think that's where things become a little bit, if I was going to be a prude, that's where I would step in and go, yeah, I think it's a bit, no, there's nothing wrong with anal. No, no, no, no, there's nothing wrong with anal. But I don't think we have to preface, we don't want to be prudes. Because we, especially us on the left, are like hyper aware of where we stand in that group. It's all we do.

It's all we do. We spend so long talking about it. Yeah, it can get a bit pathetic. Yeah, we're just trying to be like, we're so open and everything's great. And by the way, yes. And also there's truth behind things that are problematic. There is math. There is science around it.

There are things that are bad. A hundred percent. There is math. There is science around it. There are things that are bad. 100%. I'd argue if you had a young person and they were mainlining porn 24-7, they'd probably get some worse ideas about sex and relationships than someone that wasn't doing that. I'm going to guess yes. And also, this is a male and female issue, this obsession with porn. But let's take males for a second. So if males are watching all this porn and then they have all these ideas, girls, and this is just what we've been living with forever and the patriarchy and everything, especially in sex,

girls want to please their male partner. So if something's happening based on porn that they're like, oh my God, this is so intense. Oh my God, he's choking me. Women have a reluctance to be like, please stop. Yeah, I'd like to breathe right now, please. I would love, I think I prefer breathing.

I'd love some oxygen right now. Yes. Yeah, and not to be in pain. Even with pretty, let's say, prude conventional sex, women don't want to do that. They have a very hard time speaking their needs. Then add on this layer, it can get dangerous. Yeah, what it normalizes is, and I guess that's a big argument about it, right? If you're anti-porn, it's all

very male gaze-y and typically in the porn industry as it sits now it's pretty male orientated, male crews, male directors. Oriented, orientated. Oriented. Oriented. We talked about this before certain words that i just never learned but i want to blame it on new zealand but you said you think it's just you no it's just me yeah and i appreciate i appreciate that i love just also calling out a stat i find very funny from that intro the length of time people spend on Pornhub at a time like around nine minutes it's pretty obvious what people are doing yeah and a friend commented a male friend commented

to something that's I've always found very funny like when you're watching pornography it's such a great oh turned on and then like you do your business immediately you're looking at what you watch disgusting oh it suddenly it suddenly shifts like as a guy so if you're watching it to get turned on do your thing you're through the ordeal you look at what you're watching and you're like oh no and you want to shut the laptop down oh my god it's like the lights got turned on it's very it's a very comical thing and i can't unthink that now i've heard it because it's true it's like oh, oh, exciting, exciting, exciting. And suddenly you're looking at it going, oh, no, I don't want to be watching these two naked people.

Yuck. And you shut the laptop. That's fascinating. I would have thought that men would have continued to find it hot forever. Yeah, no. No, no, no. Once you've got your biological impetus out of the way, then disgusting. I wasn't sure if we could say ejaculation on the show. I think that's probably fine.

Why wouldn't we? In New Zealand, we're very shy about saying any kind of words to do with sex. Plus, I went to a really strict Christian school, and our sex education was just don't have sex. All they did was show us venereal diseases. Abstinence. Yeah, and that was it. So I always get a bit scared still when I say, okay, ejaculation. You and I both, and it just like popped out of my mouth. Yeah. We talked about our virginity. Virginity, when that disappeared.

Yeah, when we went from being sad, pathetic losers to cool non-virgins. No, we were always cool. We were always cool. Yeah, but no, we were both quite late and nervous in our lives. It was a real ordeal, or it sort of led up to an ordeal in our minds. Exactly. And we have different stories, but similar in that way. Yours is probably because of your religious background, right?

Yeah, I was way too scared to have sex. Like sex in my mind when I was growing up was like, I must get married and then have sex. Because the whole thing I was told is that once you have sex with someone, your souls fuse together forever. And so if you're sleeping with like a lot of people, your souls fuse. So if you tear away from them, a bit of your soul is left with that person. And so the more people you sleep with, essentially the less soul you have, which for me was a real worry. I love my soul. I'm a big fan. And so I was really scared.

And when I moved away from that sort of religion. This is so awful. Yeah, it's a ridiculous thing to tell people. Plus, I was really scared of all the horrible growths you could get on your penis just from having sex. So I was told all sorts of stuff. So once I understood that life isn't necessarily like that, it was a real worry. And then the worry becomes the older you get,

if you haven't had sex and you're like going into your 20s, which was the case for me, it's like this giant terrifying thing you've got to cross. It's an albatross. Because you have to figure out how do I explain this? Obviously, there's a billion questions that come with it. Am I obligated to tell this person? Am I not?

I know. And what I told you, which is I hadn't really – it's very funny talking about this. So when I lost my virginity quite late in life, I didn't tell the person I slept with that it was my first time. And they specifically afterwards said, is this your first time? And I decided the cool thing to do would be like, no, it's not my first. What I should have said is absolutely. I denied it, which in their mind would have made me even more of a tragic figure. I've never really stopped thinking about that because it's such a funny thing to lie about

when it's very clear that it's probably your first time. Yeah. Yeah. They still don't know. I might tell them I know it's a surprise. I still i still know them i know and i'm really excited for you to do that i'll try and get audio so i can play it on the show please she's gonna be nice about it because you picked a nice person as did i but this kind of all actually is a ding ding ding to this topic because expectation it's all about expectation and porn makes the expectations outrageous, impossible. Oh, absolutely. And they're actors. The angles are ridiculous and what people are doing is ridiculous.

I did, as always, want to canvas Americans' opinions on pornography, so I was excited to hear what people's thoughts were about porn and people did not disappoint. Oh, I'm excited. I mainly encounter it on Reddit. I have a separate account that's just for porn. My most recent encounter with porn was about three hours ago. My partner's not available right now, so I just opened Pornhub, and I looked up this account that I like, and I watched four of his videos.

I just went for three rounds and then deleted my search history for it. My girlfriend and I actually have an OnlyFans account. We've probably made, since we started in March, close to $1,000, maybe $1,500. For over 15 years, I've been working for a nonprofit that's supported by the adult entertainment industry. That's what they prefer to be called, the adult entertainment industry, not porn. Our sponsors and members are companies that make adult content and want to show that they care about keeping kids safe online by keeping them off their sites. We run an anonymous tip line,

which reports cases of online child exploitation to the correct authorities. I only watch porn from Balessa, which is a woman-centered porn site, specifically their Balessa House series. I also recently made my first sex tape with my boyfriend, so I guess that's kind of porn too. Very hot, highly recommend. It did shape the way I thought about sex for the next several years. The intense fake moaning, the weird sound of body parts slapping together. I thought sex was this really big show just like porn.

And it took me way too long to realize that sex and porn are not one and the same. My last experience with porn was today. I'm a director. I remember one time a model brought an emotional support lizard to set. I had an ex-boyfriend. He was using my laptop. And this was prior to Zoom, but he thought it was like a video chat where they would both be masturbating, him and this other woman. So he did masturbate.

Turns out the woman's side of things was pre-recorded, but they were recording him masturbating. And then they created a fake Facebook page where they uploaded his video and attempted to blackmail him. So the end of that story is the person that was impersonating her boyfriend then friended her on Facebook. And she saw this video and went to the boyfriend. He denied it. And she was like, look, you're in my room. I know this room. It was you. Holy shit. A lot to unpack. Whoa. First things first. How did you get all these people to be so open? Yeah. So what I did, I stole your idea from your anonymous series and I went online and got prompts.

And so I went onto my Instagram and I said, hey, we're going to do an episode about porn. Tell me your last porn experience. And that generated all of that. So I just basically said, record a voice memo on your phone and send it to me. And so people are kind of anonymous and they can kind of speak freely. Very different to my other technique of walking up with a microphone. That wasn't in the middle of a park in Los Angeles. I was like, you found all these people at Griffith Park and they just talk to you about.

No, these are from people all over the United States. That would be incredible if people were that horny in America. I mean, in LA, I wouldn't be that surprised, but wow. Okay. That makes way more sense that's checked off the list first of all this is a little bit of a detour but it is really when i thought you were talking to people at griffith park and i was like how did he do this i then remembered i saw you do this live action in front of me me and you went to a bar and we talked to the bartender and all of a sudden,

I didn't even know what was going on. You asked like two benign questions to this bartender. And all of a sudden he was telling you about the last six months of his life. It was a big deal. And he was going through a breakup. We learned a lot about him. We learned so much. And all of a sudden I was like, a lot about him we learned so much and all of a sudden i was like oh my god david incepted him he did his thing i got to see it yeah i didn't notice

i was doing it because i love getting people to tell me things about them because it's so interesting i can think of nothing worse than talking about myself because it's so boring you know it all well it's not to me it is yeah like to me it's incredibly boring but yeah i Because it's so boring, you know it all. Well, it's not. To me, it is. To me, it's incredibly boring. But yeah, I guess it's from years in a newsroom and making documentaries. I mean, I think a lot of people like it, but it's a skill to be able to get someone to open up that quick, which is why I did think, oh, wow, he just did that thing in Griffith Park and all these people told them. I have limits of how much I can get people to open up. But I have been blamed. Like if I go on a date or something,

I get blamed at the end because people are like, I learned nothing. They sort of clock it later. So I learned nothing about you, but you learned way too much about me. Probably need to get a little bit more balanced. I just like learning about people

because people are infinitely fascinating. But okay, if people want to try out the David Ferrier technique, the question you asked was, how's your day on a scale of one to 10? That was the initial question. You've got to give them an in. Because if you just say, how is my day? They'll go, it was good.

Yeah. And because that's all people want to answer. You give them a scale, they'll give you a number. From that number, you can then press in. It was school. A three? What's wrong? That's what people want to answer. You give them a scale. They'll give you a number. From that number, you can then press in. It was school. I enjoyed it. What's wrong? That's what it was.

Yeah, 10? Oh, my goodness. What happened? Okay, well, that's a little BTS behind the scenes forever. Yeah, there you go. There was a really good point there made from someone that works, obviously, trying to protect kids online. Oh, yes. And that's something i find really interesting about porn sites that's come up a lot recently is that some of these porn sites you don't know how old people are you look at something like

porn hub which is branded itself as being edgy and cool and you can buy porn hub socks and a hoodie and it's got merchandise but you've got to be really aware of what you're watching. And not everyone on there wants the videos there. Not everyone is of age. And there's been a whole lot of lawsuits around that that show on that very clearly. And I think that's super important. Yeah. I mean, does Pornhub and other websites, do they vet?

That's the problem. There's not a lot of vetting. websites. Do they vet? That's the problem. There's not a lot of vetting. There's a case that's been going on recently where a judge has actually ordered that Visa can be sued from someone that was on Pornhub at the wrong age because the payments for Pornhub go via Visa. And so Visa has been dragged into this Pornhub mess. A little segment from the article, Serena was 13 in 2014 when it's alleged her boyfriend pressured her into making an explicit video which he then posted on porn hub she alleges that visa by processing the revenue from the ads conspired with porn hubs parent company mind geek to make money from the

videos of her abuse and when you think that video goes online you've got a 14 year old allegedly on that site a lot of people are watching that and that is but that's illegal abuse it's illegal completely and so no there hasn't been a lot of vetting and so that has gotten Pornhub into a lot of trouble and I think people are unaware of this they kind of think oh I load up this big popular porn site yeah it's all legal all these actors are being treated really well yeah they're of age not always the case And I think that's something super important to think about. I know some sector of America wants porn to be illegal, but I definitely don't want that. I think it needs to be not only legal, it needs to be regulated by the government. Maybe not the government, but it needs to be regulated. Uh-huh. Like legal things need regulation.

Social media, I'm sorry. Yeah, it's the same argument, right? Yes. Totally. Things get out of control. Yeah, with free speech comes a certain level of responsibility into what you say and what you incite. And yeah, if you're hosting videos, you need to check that there aren't kids having sex in them.

Yeah. Like really simple stuff. Exactly. Oh my God. Anyway, look, as always, I went out and made a little documentary to dig deeper into this whole thing. So I'm going to play that for you now. Okay. One piece of American culture that made its way to New Zealand was Boy Meets World.

Like much of the planet in the 90s, we love the antics of Corey and Topanga, Corey's friend Sean, and teacher Mr. Feeney, who always taught us important life lessons. friend Sean and teacher Mr Feeny, who always taught us important life lessons. Friendship for example is a real gift and it's given with no expectation and no gratitude is necessary. But there was another character that would also walk onto screen and this would happen. Rachel, what are you doing? Dishes. Don't stop. Do the dishes. Screw it, I'm a dumb, dumb. TV was a different thing 30 years ago,

and studio audiences would whistle and holler when Rachel Maguire walked on, essentially because she was the character everyone was meant to be attracted to. I am Maitland Ward. You might know me from all of my older work, like when I was on Boy Meets World. Maitland Ward was the actor that everyone was whistling at. You might know me from all of my older work, like when I was on Boy Meets World. Maitland Ward was the actor that everyone was whistling at. And in any other timeline, I imagine for this podcast, I'll be talking to her about Boy Meets World, one of the most American shows ever made. But I'm talking to her about porn because that's what she does now. I was very young when I started out with that.

I started discovering myself and really discovering myself as a sexual woman, human being. I was always very shy and I wouldn't say ashamed of my body, but you know, not comfortable. But then as I got older, I felt more free, showing more myself and becoming more of the sexual being that I was and not having to hide and pretend to the world that I was just some sweetheart. I thought Maitland would be a good person to talk to about American porn because she got into it later in life. It was an active decision she made. Now, of course, there are a million ways people get into this work, some positive, some negative. There's exploitation and terrible power dynamics that exist in the industry. But for some, it's also

liberating and done on their terms. Like most things in life, it's not all black and white. It's even hard to get a handle on the size and influence of porn, because as someone once said, it's an industry where they exaggerate the size of everything. Maitland says her journey into porn was slow. She likens it to a lobster placed in cold water that slowly turned up to boiling. Without realizing it, the lobster's cooked. She says well after her stint on Boy Meets World and acting on another American institution called The Bold and the Beautiful, she started dressing up at cosplay events in sexy, revealing outfits. She then enrolled at UCLA and studied screenwriting

and did some writing courses in LA, where she started writing erotic fiction. Then she found Patreon. So I signed up one night, I didn't tell anybody, and 20 people were signed up the next day. So I said, let me announce this. And like by the end of the week, I was the number one adult creator on Patreon. I had like 2,800 and growing subscribers. She'd finally found an outlet for her more risque content that was getting her kicked off places like Snapchat. It was nuts paying anywhere from $15 to $200, $300 for things. This is a big part of the porn world. Individual creators posting

on Patreon or OnlyFans and camming for tips, doing things on their terms to an audience who's there just for them. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. This episode of Flightless Bird is brought to you by Primal Kitchen. I'm new to America. I don't know where to get food to cook with or to make burgers with or anything primal kitchen is now my primary source of sauces they have amazing ingredients i won't say his name but we have a friend don't say the name mutual friend who has a very interesting way of cooking food he makes everything in the air fryer and i am so disturbed by it he'll put a

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One thing I've always found fascinating is that porn helps drive technology. Part of the reason VHS tapes took off as a format, they were great for porn. Same with DVDs getting established. Porn. The internet. Porn. Sex sells and therefore sex sells and pushes technology along with it. Pornography, how it's made, how it's viewed, and how it's defined has gone through so many seismic shifts.

America's always been a bit freaked out by it. While in the late 19th century porn popped off in France, America was getting angry at it. I mean, just take inventor Thomas Edison. In 1896, he produced a movie called The Kiss. It was 18 seconds and showed a kiss. The first kiss ever shown on film. It was denounced as pornographic, and one film critic said it was absolutely disgusting. Things started looking out for porn in America during the so-called golden age of porn, which started in 1969. Of course, it was 69. which started in 1969. Of course, it was 69.

This was a 15-year period where porn got mainstream showings in theatres and positive responses, starting with Andy Warhol's Blue Movie, which went on and influenced films like The Devil and Miss Jones and Deep Throat. 1969 also saw Stanley vs. Georgia, where the Supreme Court ruled people could view whatever they liked in the privacy of their own homes. But with all this liberal expansion came pushback, and saw the anti-porn movement emerging in full force. They started at Columbus Circle, and they marched in force right down Broadway into the heart of Times Square. The marchers' aim was clear. Let's kill the $4 billion industry that exploits females and female bodies, young and old.

In other words, no more X-rated movies, magazines, posters, peep shows, and other paraphernalia that encourage what they say is violence against women. The actor Harry Reams, who appeared in Deep Throat, a film which grossed about $25 million at the time, was arrested by FBI agents. In July of 1974, I was arrested by the FBI and eventually stood trial for having conspired to transport interstate obscene materials. Reams became the first American actor to be prosecuted for appearing in a film. I think I was being used as an example for other actors, other directors, people connected with the production angle, to not experiment with sexuality as an avenue of creativity for fear of

potential jail. I now face five years in jail. Despite other actors like Jack Nicholson speaking up in his defense, Reams was convicted. But there was an appeal a year later and the charges were dropped. Today, the anti-porn movement rages on. When I googled porn statistics United States for this episode, the entire first page of Google results were Christian websites raging against porn. And look, there are plenty of things to rage about. There are awful allegations directed at Pornhub, whose statistics I was gleefully giving earlier, which is full of underage porn,

and revenge porn, videos that people in them never wanted released. But Maitland, here in 2022, says she finds it all empowering for her. Along with her millions of likes on OnlyFans and Patreon, she does porn films too, with other actors. Her husband's on board with the whole thing. We've really discussed everything together along the way, so it's not like I just said, hey, I'm going to shoot porn today. It was definitely a process along the way,

and he was the one who really noticed that I needed to have this outlet to explore this side of myself because I really was loving it. I needed more of it. There are certain things, a lot of things in porn that I'm not going to do in my real life because it's just too difficult. It's just too difficult, but it's acrobatic and it's crazy. But I wanted to do them and try them. She tells me she

did her first hardcore adult film back in October of 2019. It was called Drive for a site called Deeper.com. Traffic went wild and she tells me she trained it all day on Google. It hit a Bernie Sanders heart attack. She says the sex scene in that film was almost an hour. Heart attack material for many Americans, I imagine. You have to make it last for like 45 minutes and with the four different positions at least, and you have to map them out ahead of time. There's a lot of setup involved in it. I wanted to talk to her more about the details,

but I got nervous. All I could think about was being 12 and watching her in Boy Meets Worlds. It was weird. Maybe I'm just a prude. So I threw a cop out question at her, hoping it will at least elicit something useful. Since you have done more pornography, what do you think is the biggest misconception people have out there in the public about it? First of all, there's so many misconceptions. Everybody thinks that's

scary and you go into these dungeons. Well, sometimes there are dungeons, but they're set up. But no, they think you're going into this scary, sleazy world where everybody's just on drugs and having orgies. I mean, it's so like going onto a regular set. People are so nice. They're making a living. They're treated so badly by the public a lot of times. And I think that's just terrible that people would make a judgment on them just because

their sex work. That makes me so mad. But it's kind of funny. People, they have these misconceptions, but they also are interested in it. And I think they think that they can ask me because I'm kind of the safe choice. I'm kind of the bridge. Like I was in mainstream and I knew me in their living rooms. Maitland was a teen when she got into TV and she was just entering her 40s when she got into full-on porn and she

tells me she's much happier now than those boy meets world days because she knows who she is and she's in control. I wondered how much of this was rebelling against the clean Disney image and how much was fate. She tells me it was a mixture of both. So yeah that was Maitland, who I wanted to talk to. She wrote a book called Rated X. And I saw she had written this book. And I was like, oh, that's that character from Boy Meets World. And she wasn't on there all the time.

She was a recurring. So I thought she'd just be an interesting person to get a perspective because she wasn't dragged into it young. She went into it when she was married. And it's just something she wanted to explore. Man, it really does throw a wrench in thinking because I 100% thought that it was Dungeony. But the thing is, it's tricky because she's one person, one perspective, and she is a known person.

So she might be being treated better slash differently than most of these other people oh 100 i've no doubt that there's younger people getting into porn in la and they have less decision making and they're not doing things they necessarily want to do so she's definitely like a rosy perspective yeah on the whole thing but she does sound happy. And when you asked her, do you think part of it is in this maybe even subconscious rebellion? Yeah.

The truth is it doesn't really matter why if it's healing in a way that she really is consenting to and is not having consequences on her life, which it doesn't sound like it is no i think she said her husband had come to set a few times and he's just like do your thing it's the way she wants to explore her sexuality so she goes and does it and it works for them it works for them and it's like kind of who are we to say that that's wrong exactly and i the other thing i find interesting about her is she does both those systems where she has an OnlyFans, which is such a big thing now. And she does the working for a company that actually makes a film with a storyline and all the rest of it.

Because I find OnlyFans so fascinating. Are you on it? I'm not on it. I'm not on it. I haven't even signed in to look at anything. I should have for this episode. But it has empowered a lot of people to make money when they couldn't do anything else.

And there's so much debate around it because obviously it's empowering, but then also there'll be someone that has a big social media following that will come on and get a lot of money. There's a lot of people making very little on there. And the actual company itself changes its policy and suddenly people are out of work.

I mean, God, my knee jerk when I hear about OnlyFans, when I first heard about it, I was like, oh, my God. It's like this is horrifying. And I was like, you know, we've done it. We've reached the pinnacle of social media being so destructive. It's like thirst traps going all the way. Yes. I still have that. This is not healthy to sell your body. But then I like pull back if you're not getting taken advantage of.

Yeah. If it's all on your own terms. Yeah. It's increments. Everyone is selling themselves. I'm selling myself on social media all the time. So am I. So that people look and click and want to be engaged. And if people want to do that with more of their body, then I don't see a problem with it. And there's no middleman except for the company. There's no one there in the room with them. You can just do whatever you want. It's on your own terms. I can see that side of things. I'll be too shy to do it. Same. This is just perpetuating this societal problem where women have to have the perfect body and be the perfect

thing in order to attract a man. And men are ogling at them. She also mentioned ethical porn, where it's basically, this is an all-female crew. They all have input into the script, into what they're going to do, as opposed to your typical porn set, which is generally male-directed. So ethical porn, the idea that females are driving the entire thing. So there's that side of things. But there's also the way it's used. And I guess that's the debate. If you're putting things out and it's still being used for men to ogle and look at women

as objects, then that still can be a problem. I wonder how well ethical porn does. I think it's on the rise. Is it? It's on the rise. There's a lot being written about it. People are thinking about it and saying that a lot of people don't give a shit and they just want to get off and they'll just watch any old thing. And even if I'm going to try to lend some compassion to people, part of the inherent attraction to porn is the danger element it's dangerous yeah and so when there's ethics placed like i don't does that ethics aren't sexy they're not sexy i mean i hate that as human that's the thing that's where your mind goes yeah but it's the truth and i just mean realistically when i'm looking at this i'm'm like, is that the answer? There have been multiple articles now about how Pornhub is full of stuff that is

definitely not ethical. Their stats haven't dropped. People are still going there. Exactly. Like men are disgusting. It's what they're going to do. Sure. Men can be disgusting. Women can be disgusting. But also humans want to see the thing they're not supposed to see. Yeah. In America, it's so interesting as well, because there has been such a history of porn being so artistic. And you've got people like Andy Warhol involved, and you've got porn playing at theaters, but then you've got the Christian right coming along and being like, let's shut all the porn down.

And now we're in today where everyone is on the internet and revenge porn has been flung around. Everything moves so quickly. I think it's the hardest topic to keep up ethically and morally with what the hell we should do. What should we do? Yeah. And if I had a kid, it would be a true nightmare. What do I want my kid to be watching? I don't want you watching any porn.

I know. But of course, they're going to watch porn and I don't want to freak them out about it. Then I also don't want them to watch everything. Imagine opening up your kids porn search history what has to happen now with parents is an acknowledgement that this is out there this is accessible they're probably going to find a way to access it in some ways there needs to be like a real conversation of this exists and it's there and it is there to like give you pleasure. But it is not real. We need to start defining the line now that what you're watching there is not what you will experience.

And what you'll experience in life is intimacy and all of these other great things that you're not going to get from watching this video. You don't need to go straight to anal. Unless you want to. Unless you're really into it. There was only one logical place to go in the documentary next and i had to go and kind of check out a porn shoot so that you did not so that's where we go now so it sounded like i farted but that was my foot. All this anal talk loosened me up. I haven't been here before. It's two years coming up. 24389. I don't see it. I've been in an Uber for about 40 minutes driving from central LA to Calabasas. I don't know much about Calabasas except that there

are a lot of big gates guarding giant sprawling houses. I think this is where all the rich people live. I'm here to go and watch the creation of a porn movie. If I can ever find the right house. After a lot of winding roads and missed turns my uber driver Karen gets me there. Five stars for Karen. Thank you, my friend. You take care. In front of me, I find a giant sprawling gate. The driveway winds up a hill. At the top, a hulking mansion,

which I feel was probably built in the 80s. Three stories, all white, and some weird turrets going on. This place is huge, but kind of run down. I see a bunch of vans parked outside, unloading lights and tripods. Soon I'm introduced to David, the director. He's a solid man, tall, with lots of tattoos, and a green Smokey the Bear cap. Smokey the Bear is definitely a whole other Flightless Bird episode, but today is about porn.

So we're in the garage of what is sort of a big-ish mansion up in the hills. I mean, it feels big to me from New Zealand. This is probably small to you. Yeah. Well, there's like five houses that we rotate, you know, and they're all kind of like this. But yeah, this is a good shoot house. And do the houses normally know what you're using them for, or is it just a big mystery? Well, we have to. They have to know. I'm sure that there's some people that do like the Airbnb route, kind of sneak stuff in.

I just don't have the time to deal with it. So I make sure that they know not only that we're shooting, but the content that we're shooting. There's a lot of room. There's a lot of parking. They're secured parking. It's gated. There's no line of sight for the most part. So yeah, it's optimum. And so what's happening today? Is this a fairly typical shoot for you? Is this like... This is a very typical shoot. I'm shooting for a company called Adult Time. We're shooting today, we're shooting a Pure Taboo, which is a brand of theirs, and it's unique unto itself, where it's a little bit more dramatic stories, as well as a dramatic look, heavy contrast, hard light on one side, dark on the other. I've been seeing all these guys coming with a lot of lighting gear. This is just like I'm on the set of a drama or any other shoot.

drama or any other shoot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is all my shit. I got the cameras, the stills, the lighting, and then these guys just bring their own stuff. And between all of us, we just make it happen. David says shooting a scripted porn movie makes for a busy day. One scene days are about eight hours long. Two scene days, about 10 hours. I follow him into the house. There are a lot of tiles and a pointless number of stairs. You step down into the kitchen, then up into the lounge. This place would be a nightmare if you were drunk. There are a lot of mirrors and the whole place echoes around us. We walk into a little production room. I'm a production manager, so I oversee all of the paperwork, all the test IDs, make sure we have everything for set, all the props, locations, all that stuff.

JJ usually acts in porn, but today he's the PA. I get the feeling he's expanding his horizons. What do you do when you're not working in porn? I am an admissions coordinator for a dual diagnosis treatment center, which helps drug addicts, alcoholics, and people struggling with mental health. He plays some metal music from his laptop, and I wander around the house a little bit. I notice all the furniture is leather or vinyl, easier to wipe down.

I don't think I've ever been in a house with less personality. It's definitely an Airbnb vibe. It's got a lot of generic art up. I will always love you forever on the wall. Some stock images of dogs and photo frames. I bump into Joel, who I'd met outside. What's your main gig? My main gig here is lighting.

He's rake thin, has a giant smile and a long, wiry beard. He's proudly wearing a bad religion shirt, which seems oddly appropriate considering this is a Sunday morning and what we're here to do. Do you typically work on porn shoots or other shoots as well? Mainly porn. Yeah, I started in 94, been around for a minute. You started at birth, bitch! Yeah, I started at birth.

My grandparents are also owned a porn company in London and then my father also owned a company. How's that been as a career? Like that's like, for me, it seems like quite a unique thing to do. Well, I'm married, have five children. It's paid for my whole life. My kids' college and everything else. So it's worked out for me.

We're constantly working. You know, we're the mainstream. You know, you get a gig, you're on for a few months or you might be on for a few weeks or something, and that's it. You got to look for the next one or, you know, wait for the next one to come around. This is constant work. I mean, I work 18, 22 days a month. Has it ever slowed down except for probably like,

I guess COVID would sort of slow things down? COVID and if something comes up in the testing process, that's why we do the testing. You know, a lot of times if HIV positive or even a false positive, we've got to wait for the next. And they test the pool of people that they've been in within that timeframe there. So we all have to stop production until everybody's been tested and tested negative

he says condom enforcement rules come and go where are we at right now with condom enforcement uh i don't think it's enforced right now i mean that's not my department i do lighting and camera operators so other people handle you know what's supposed to be done on set fair enough stay tuned for more flightless bird we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors flightless bird is brought to you by indeed now when you're hiring you're supposed to leave no stone unturned but how do you actually do that? Easy. Partner with one powerful stone turner. You need Indeed. Indeed is the hiring platform where you can attract, interview, and hire all in the one place. Find top talent fast with Indeed's suite of powerful hiring tools like

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for quality applications from resumes in our database matching your job description. Visit indeed.com slash bird to start hiring now. Just go to indeed.com slash bird, indeed.com slash bird. Terms and conditions apply. Cost per application pricing not available for everyone. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Today's shoot is a bit unusual in that this porn is quite dialogue heavy. In a way, I'm relieved as I can ease into the atmosphere a little bit. The dialogue that you really focus on, it's more of the movie making, the cinematography and things like that. The sex is, you know, we've been doing it for so long, we know how to do it. The performers are professional, they know how to do it.

They open up for cameras and things like that. They see if the light's there or not. If it's not there, I'm there to fill it in. And then see you in a half hour, see you in 45 minutes, whatever it might be, and hopefully we get a whole run through, you know? It seems more realistic when you go all the way through and don't have to pick up and things like that.

On the same hand, talent can cut at any given time. If there's something that's uncomfortable or, you know, they got an itchy toe, they are actually in control of everything that happens in a scene. So. Literally the only concern I have today is I've got a very sensitive nose. I'm really worried about sex smells. What is the smell like typically when there's a sex scene happening? Normally it's quite pleasant because the talent actually freshen up before they actually come into set. People think it's going to smell like ass or something. No, it doesn't. These are probably the most cleanest people that you would,

that would be walking around. They're tested the most. They're watching their bodies. So that's their job to keep clean. This is great news. And I feel less worried about my sensitive snores. I go into the kitchen where a series of snacks are laid out for the crew. I spot Doritos, Cheetos, and something called Nutty Butter Bites. Director David is marking up scripts in the corner, figuring out what order to shoot today's scenes in. Continuity is vital. How did you get into this scene, by the way, into directing?

In the 80s, we were all long-haired rocker kids listening to Metallica and in bands and doing all that thing. We all telemarketed, so you sold pins and in bands and doing all that thing. We all telemarketed. So you sold pins and toners and shit because it was a job that you didn't have to keep forever. It was good, quick money. So I found a way to sell porno over the phone. He's like a good salesman.

Yeah, he's a good salesman. So I did that for my first 10 years, and then I started producing DVDs. I was the third guy ever to put out a DVD. That whole era, it was three of us that kind of were doing that. I mean, that was the ultimate way to make money because they were so cheap to print, right? And you could sell them for so much. And over fist, dude.

We were selling one DVD for $15. And I worked for a company called Wicked, literally doing 80,000, 100,000 pieces at $15 to $18 a piece, making money hand over fist. Of course, the internet changed everything again. And in the 2000s, David started to direct porn. The 2009 recession hit hard. Piracy was up, DVD sales were way, way down. But numbers are climbing again. And Business Insider says globally, porn makes about $100 billion a year right now. Is it harder to make money in this industry now than it was back in DVD era? Yes. When I say it's harder to make money, you make less doing the same thing, but I still work all the time. I walk into another room where two female actors are having their hair and makeup done by Melissa.

I meet Hadley, the actor playing the young wife today. I've looked at the script and I think her husband is about to be seduced by his step-mom. Is this a pretty typical shoot day for you? Um, I'd say maybe half my shoots have a script. And like, do you like having the script aspect or are you like, oh God, this is like annoying. I've got to have all these words in my brain right now. Because I hate learning lines because I have zero memory. When it's interesting, I get excited. If it's a script I'm not into, if I think it's really lame or something, I'm not into it. But last night when I was reading this, I was like, oh, I could get emotional.

This is fun. What is the first scene you're shooting today? So we're shooting out of order since I got my makeup and hair done first. There's like this short little part of me in the bedroom where I'm like all conflicted and then I get up the gumption to go confront my husband and his stepmom. While we've been talking, a handsome tanned man appears. He's objectively the best looking man on set. And I realize it's the man who will later hook up with his stepmom. I'm the male talent today. So my day's going to involve a

little bit of acting and then a little bit of sex. A little bit of sex, yeah. Lucas has been acting in porn for seven years now. He says he's seen it all. I've been bled on, shit on, puked on, he's seen it all. I've been bled on, shit on, puked on, pissed on, and act like nothing was going on. I've had a chick fart in my face before. That was fun. But the viewer doesn't see or smell or understand any of that's going on. It's edited out. You can't smell through a camera or a computer screen. The conversation I had with the lighting guy earlier echoes through my mind. Normally, it's quite pleasant. It doesn't quite marry up to what Lucas just told me. Which man do I trust? What do you need to be good at this career?

For a male talent specifically, it's got a lot to do with mental capacity because you're dealing with a lot of different factors and also trying to keep your body in a turned on mode. Myself, I've done seven years, all natural, no Viagra, no additives that assist a lot of male talent in the industry. But I've seen guys on the assistants still fail. You can watch their head just defeat themselves.

There's pressure. Yeah, there's a lot of pressure. There's what, 10 people in there? It's very orchestrated sex. It isn't the same as sex you would have at home. But like the sex is still, you know, it'srated sex. It isn't the same as sex you would have at home. But like, the sex is still, you know, it's still sex, so it's cool. Sex is cool, and I can't wait to see some happening soon. But first, there's some scenes to shoot. I was thinking if I was doing this, I would be so nervous about the sex coming up. I'd almost want to get it out of the way and then do my dialogue at the end. What do most people want to do? Dialogue first and sex.

Hadley, what's your take on that? I'd rather do the acting because then you kind of like get to know the other person and it's a little bit more comfortable and I've kind of gotten my awkward weirdness out. I'm sort of surprised that some porn still has a plot. I'd assumed everyone just jumped through the acting to get to the sex.

I guess you can only write these scripts in a different way so many times until then. So many times, right? I'd assumed everyone just jumped through the acting to get to the sex. Walking Dead. He goes, how often do you watch season two? Once you've watched it, you've watched it. You're not going back and watching the old seasons, are you? And I'm like, pretty much. I'm just waiting for the new one on my DVR. Even though every season is essentially the same thing. It doesn't matter. You want to see the new thing that you haven't seen. I wasted years of my life watching The Walking Dead. Every season was essentially the same thing, but I kept on watching. and I guess porn is the same the same beats over and over again and similar amounts of bodily fluids I'm informed today's shoot will end in a threesome and something called a cream pie it's the logical way to solve a conflict between a son his wife and his step-mom scene one take one

the day rolls on scene after scene of dialogue location after location bedroom lounge kitchen it's not going to win any oscars but they're better actors than i am so all power to them by now it's about 4 p.m i've been here for six hours and lunch has just arrived just before we're about to shoot the sex scene. I'm worried about porn star Lucas, who's just shoving a burger down his face. I've just noticed you have timed lunch just before your sex scene. You've had quite a big burger just now. You didn't eat the whole thing? No, 100% a horrible idea.

Not fun. I'll either get a side cramp or just not enjoy the day. Is there anything you need to do to psych yourself up before a sex scene? We'll be doing lines all day, just had lunch. It's time for a sex scene. Do you have to transition in your mind into another place? Not yet, because we still have a ton of dialogue to do leading up to the sex scene. So I won't even get that much of notice.

I'll have to psych myself out in about five minutes, right before it happens. Well, good luck out there. Thank you. Okay, I'm going to try not to make eye contact with you or anything to freak you out. I'll sort of look at the wall or something. Have you seen today? Nothing really freaks me out. I will make eye contact and make you uncomfortable.

Oh, goody. With lunch wrapped, it's time for the final scene of the day. The scene that transitions into 45 minutes of hardcore sex on one of those vinyl couches I saw when I first got here. We all walk into the lounge. Me, the director, the director's assistant, the lighting guy, the cameraman, and the three actors. I don't see the cream pie, but I assume the PA has it on hand. There are three consent forms on the table and David the director goes through a 10-minute health and safety briefing. Basically it outlines what the actors are happy with doing and what they don't want done. Lips, ears and neck. Some people don't

like their lips bit. If some guy puts a fucking wet soggy tongue in your ear you'd be like get it the fuck out of there. So lips anyone have any preferences or doesn't matter? Yes. Ears. Anyone like ears? I do like my ears kissed. I tend to kiss on ears if anyone doesn't like that. I'm all for it.

Not into the tongue in here, but nibbling is cool. All right, we good, guys? We good so we can cut at the same time on this day? We good? Yeah. Everything signed? Bueno? All right, stick to mask, guys.

Thanks. Thank you. Suck some dick. I panic and realize I'm not sure where I should sit. I don't want to be too close, but I don't want to be too far away. I end up sitting next to the sound guy, which makes me a boom pole's length away. Shit like this kept happening, Mom, and she's my wife. I love her. Do you?

It didn't take you long to go back to old habits. So, no matter what I do, you're going to keep going back to her. We're family. Who else would he go to? Honey, what are you doing? I can't compete with Marilyn. Maybe if I join you guys. You may be his wife, but I'm his mom. And everyone needs their mom. Look, under normal circumstances, I'd agree that yes, everyone does need their mom.

But not like this. Never like this. Cut. Perfect. And then suddenly, it's all just happening. I don't know where to look. I've made a career being a sort of gawky outsider looking in. It's what this entire podcast is about. But today I don't want to be looking into the things I'm looking into. I'm

approximately one minute into this 45 minute sex fest. I wrestle around in my pocket and pull out some ear pods. I find a cat video to watch on my phone and try and focus on that. Occasionally my eyes dart back up to what's going on on the couch meters away, every time a new writhing configuration embodies. To their credit, the smell is kind of fine. I'd call it chaotic neutral. I go back to the kitten video. I notice the director's assistant has turned off the aircon so the sound won't be picked up, so the room's getting kind of hot. And then, like all sex, I suppose, it ends. And I learn what a cream pie is.

Yay. All right. Give them wipes, everyone. Thank you, guys. Good job. Good job. Good job was all I could think to say. For some reason, I go over and shake the actor's hands. They all have sweaty palms. I think it's sweat. An assistant passes out some wet wipes. The actors are laughing now and generally there's a sense of relief in the room. What we got was phenomenal. Those guys did their job perfectly and we just kind of stood back

and tried to capture whatever we could. I thank everyone and leave, walking back down that long driveway where Uber driver Kevin picks me up. He wants to know what I've been doing out there in this mansion in the middle of nowhere. I tell him we've been making a film. I was just observing. Work experience for the new guy with the accent. I tell Kevin I enjoyed it, but it probably wasn't for me. wasn't for me. So yeah, that was how I spent my day. I need to take a nap after that. Holy shit.

Do you feel you got a feeling for what it was like? I tried to kind of get the idea of what that day, it was a real experience. How long were you there? Well, I was there for the whole day. Which is like eight to eight? So I didn't want to spend a whole day there. Yeah, yeah, it was an eight to later. So I thought they would shoot sex because I went along. I was like, I want to just get an idea of a porn set. I want to hear some dialogue and some lines and I want to be around when there's a sex scene happening just to experience it. I didn't realize that there was one sex scene and it was the very last thing. I sat through so much bad dialogue that day in this big mansion in Calabasas.

It went on and on and on. Everyone was lovely. Yes. It was a very long day. And I did record the whole sex scene on my dictaphone. But it's just, honestly, it's just moaning for 45 minutes. And it is 45 minutes. What Maitland said about what shoot days are like, she was right.

It's a 45-minute sex scene between three to five positions. Wow. And are they cutting a lot? There was one cut in that 45 minutes when a director's battery ran out on one of the cameramen. So it was a technical issue. Exactly the same problem that you'd have in documentary or anything else. Oh, no, battery's run out. We've got to do a camera issue. Exactly the same problem that you'd have in documentary or anything else. Oh no, batteries run out. We've got to do a camera change.

Any movie. The thing I didn't talk about in the documentary that was the most unusual is that just before the sex scene starts, the male talent starts to masturbate. And so he's just walking around getting ready. And I was talking to him about the burger still. I was still talking about the burger. While he was just like stroking his penis with an erection. No, no, no, no. Yeah, it's such, but everyone there treats it so normally.

I feel crazy right now. Like I feel really energized and scared. Like my fight or flight is on. It's a lot to deal with. You're just talking to him and he's erect and stroking while you're talking about this big burger. He pulls his pants down a bit and pulls his underwear down so it's just under his testicles, his undies. And just starts going and you're like, oh, I guess this is how it happens. Does he need to ejaculate before the show?

Not before. No, no, you want to do that at the end. I mean, maybe he does so he can last longer or something. But no, his whole thing is he's so in control. He's psychologically so ready for about what's about to happen that he just. Do they cum in each other? Does he cum in her? Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So that was the thing. So it's a cream pie scene. So what happened? He ejaculates inside… was it the daughter or the step-mom? I think inside the daughter and the cream pie, which I genuinely… Let's call her the wife. I don't like calling her the daughter. Oh sorry, not the daughter. Sorry, the wife. I'm so confused. Sorry. His wife.

I just got confused between mums and wives. Of course, of course. Okay, he comes in her. He comes in her. And then what the idea of a cream pie is that his ejaculate then dribbles out and the other, the stepmum, comes in and eats it. Oh! But the problem was, what happened is,

and I learned this afterwards, because this will be my backup career if this goes wrong. He got the angle wrong of his penis when he ejaculated, so his sperm was in too deep. And so they acted like it was a cream pie, because the video will be called Cream Pie. So people want the cream pie. So there was nothing, the sperm wasn't coming out for the other person to eat. But they sort of pretended. So she went in there and

pretended to eat it. But then we waited around for five minutes for the sperm to come out, for the ejaculate to dribble. So we're sort of sitting around waiting for the dribble and then someone saw it. They're like, it's happening, it's happening. It was like a volcanologist waiting for the volcano to erupt. And surely enough, the jizz starts coming out and it's all on again. Get the cameras up, rolling, we're rolling.

And so I guess in the final film they make a cut to when it's actually coming out. I did not expect this to be my day. I did not. I really, wow. You know, that was a lot. So it was a weird, we'd done 45 minutes of sex, and then there was the five-minute wait for that to happen.

Wow. I've learned too much too quick. My brain can't comprehend. But I guess I didn't't realize which is very stupid of me but this shows how much porn i've watched i didn't realize they came in the other person's body i guess that's why they have to do all this but what about i guess they have to be on birth control like so another thing that happened she took the birth control on set not because it's like i'm about to have sex was just that's the time of the day the joke was like imagine if i forgot to take this today

so she took it so yeah everyone's on birth control and everyone is really rigorously tested because yeah obviously stis and there's no condom so anything happens so it's just sex wait okay and then just just say it again oh no what did, and then just say it again? Oh no, what did I show? No, just say it Condoms That's how you say it Get the condom Someone get the condom

And so In my mind I thought it would I thought it would be sort of interesting I feel like I'm like blush I feel crazy Do you feel crazy or no? I feel like I'm like blush. I feel crazy. Do you feel crazy or no? I'm going to show you a photo.

I took one photo. Okay. Oh, my God. And just to be clear in this, there's no faces. It's my face and a blurred background. I feel like a little kid. Oh. So that was Monica's just looking at sort of what my, it's a selfie.

It's sort of some blurred bodies and a configuration behind me. And so you can sort of see the action that I was seeing. So that's the husband, his wife, and the stepmom. What do you think of that? Wow. You're actually speechless. I really am. Because all of it, you're there.

Like, my brain is not under... Yeah, that shouldn't fit, right? This shouldn't be happening. There should be, like, a beautiful beach behind me or some scenery or something, a puppy. Not an intense threesome. Yeah, the thing I found that I was surprised about is that I thought it would be interesting and a bit humorous being there. But what I found out about myself is I didn't like being there. I felt uncomfortable.

I felt like I was witnessing something that was sort of personal and intense. You felt creepy. No, I didn't feel creepy Because I'd met everyone earlier So I'd met both actors, I'd met the whole crew Everyone was happy for me to be there It was more just I realised I don't think I like to be It's like you don't like to be in the room while someone's having sex I don't, no

Yeah, and it goes on for so long Most sex would be over like quite quickly Wow You know, if you're staying at a friend's house And someone's having sex in the other room. Right. You're like, oh, your flatmate's having sex. You're like, oh, this is a bit awful.

It's over soon, right? Right. Two minutes or something. Three minutes, five minutes, ten minutes max. Yeah. Forty-five minutes is a really long, intense time to be listening. And everything's heightened. There's loud noises.

Yes. Did you just feel so awkward and vulnerable? Like, I feel weird. I feel vulnerable right now. And everything's heightened. There's loud noises. Yes. Did you just feel so awkward and vulnerable? Like, I feel weird. I feel vulnerable right now. Even just talking about this has nothing to do with either of us. Yeah. I don't know. And I think so much of my own background probably came into it because I am from a super conservative background.

I guess I was more shocked by it than I thought I would be. The noises and the squelching and the gagging. Oh, there was gagging? Oh, there was so much gagging. And I don't like hearing gagging because that makes me feel like, but there was so, I've never heard so much gagging. Okay, I want to explain this picture. It's blurry, but I can see everything that's happening.

So there's a man on the couch, the wife, not the daughter. Yeah, just to be clear. Yep. It gets so confusing. Well, yeah, there's lots of characters and lots of family members. Okay, so she's above him. He's eating her out. And it kind of looks like his hand is up her butt.

It's there. But one of the things in the safety briefing is that she said she didn't want any fingers up the butt. Because that safety briefing at the beginning was about 15 minutes. And they have a little map of the body, a little diagram. And they go through from head to toe and what people want and what they don't. And I believe both of them were very specifically like, I don't want a finger slipped up a butt or anything else in my butt. And so the hand is there, I think what you're seeing, but there's nothing penetrating. Do you think they don't listen to those things ever?

Probably. I was wondering because also if you're in the heat of the moment. Yeah. Because it's not simulated. They're having sex. Right. And I'm sure certain sort of things maybe take over. But I guess that's the tricky thing about these sets

where maybe sometimes things do get out of control. Yeah. Like Ron Jeremy, that famous porn actor, who's sort of famous for being so, you know, he's not a good-looking man. Right. And I think the whole thing that made him famous is men would look at him and be like, oh, if he can have sex with all those women, maybe I have it.

It's sort of awful. Yeah. He's about to go in front of the courts for a range of awful things he did whilst on sets and off sets. And so that's what's tricky about it. And again, everyone was lovely. And I sort of now have all the numbers and I don't want them texting me abuse. But just I personally found it very man orientated.

Everyone in that crew that walked in to shoot it were all men. Really? The only females in the room were one of the PAs and the two actors. And so I guess that made me think, oh, I'm just another dude in here watching. And that felt a bit weird. Oh, sure. I get that. Any other questions about the band? Yeah. Have you ever had a threesome? Never. Before this, I always thought maybe I wanted one. Sure. After seeing it, I don't know.

Yeah. It's a lot of effort. I don't like awkwardness. You're always worried about what the other person's doing. Absolutely. Did any of them have kids? I didn't actually put that question to them. I feel like Lucas, the male actor, didn't. I think just the way he talked, he's young and he didn't sound like someone that had kids. But the stepmom? The stepmom potentially might have. She was pretty chill. It would have been a really good question, do you have children?

Because there's certainly porn actors, adult entertainment actors that have kids. It's a really good question. Because, I mean, can you imagine? Can you imagine? Stumbling upon a parent. Exactly. You might find them on there. Also, just like, what does your mom do?umbling upon a parent. Exactly. You might find them on there. Also, just like, what does your mom do?

That is a lot for a kid. It is a lot. It is a lot to take in. So yeah, it was a big day. Everyone was super polite. I mean, I was amazed at how easy everything was from my perspective. Everyone was super open to me. There was no, like, how are you going to use this?

Some people you talk to want to know how the edit's going to turn out, which I never sort of let anyone do because I just like to make what I make. But everyone was so open and cool. It was a really lovely day. Just right at the end, when they flicked the air conditioning off so that the sound wouldn't be picked up, it just got really warm and muggy. But also, it smelled fine. Wow. My sensitive snozz was okay. That list of things that he

said has happened to him and he's still in it. He's still in it. Yeah, and that's something I found really fascinating because sex is a full-on thing and all sorts can happen. You know, farts can slip out. All sorts of things can slip out. Or in, who knows? So yeah, the things he's gone through and stayed in the game, but he is good at it. I want to get in the psychology of these people. What you just said, he's good at it. And when you're good at something, you lean in.

It is a psychological game to not get freaked out by everyone looking, to be able to maintain everything for 45 minutes. I'm sure there's some masculine virility thing getting peaked as well. Oh, definitely some actors have to have help. He was very proud of not having to have any help. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Okay, big applause to you for getting out in the field, for risking your life for us. I'm impressed. It's pronounced condom and good job. What you said at the end is what I'm going to say at the end. Good job. Thank you.