Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: Sandwiches

Episode Date: February 7, 2023

In this week’s Flightless Bird, David Farrier looks at America’s obsession with sandwiches. Why is Subway the United State’s biggest fast food chain, leaving Starbucks and McDonalds in its wake? To get answers, David heads to Philly to investigate one of America’s greatest inventions: The Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich. There he discovers two sandwich stores locked in a decades-long rivalry. What’s the beef between Geno’s and Pat’s? And what of the man who supplies both stores with their tasty sodas? David also meets the man behind the popular Instagram account @SandwichesOfHistory, Barry, who recreates sandwiches of yore. Why were ancient sandwiches so disgusting? Why would someone combine peanut butter with tomatoes in a sandwich? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander who accidentally got stuck in America, and I want to find out what makes this country tick. Now many moons ago, something American came to New Zealand. It was 1995, and it involved a man named Jared. This oven-roasted chicken breast sandwich at Subway restaurants. It has five grams of fat. This is real chicken, with fresh veggies and freshly baked bread. Subway, eat fresh.

Jared Fogel was Subway's secret sauce, a man who allegedly plummeted in size after changing his diet to the Subway sandwich. In 1995, there was one Subway in New Zealand. By 2008, there were 200 Subways in New Zealand. And back in America, by 2016, Subway hit a peak of having over 27,000 locations. Of course, Subway started declining in popularity around the time Jared Fogle, Subway's public face, went down for possessing child porn. It was a PR disaster that Subway's never fully recovered from, in slow decline ever since. Still, it remains America's biggest fast food chain, followed by Starbucks and then McDonald's. Why am I talking about Subway? Well, I'm talking about Subway because it sells submarine sandwiches. Sandwiches. Americans love

sandwiches. They love nothing more than getting some bread and filling it with a bunch of meat, vegetables and mayonnaise. Subway, Jersey Mike's, Firehouse Subs, they're all sandwiches. And Americans are swallowing them at an alarming pace. I want to investigate America's love of the humble sandwich. So get that dough in the oven and prepare to fill it up with a selection of condiments, meat and vegetables. Because this is The Sandwich Episode. Flightless. Flightless. Flightless bird touchdown in America.

I'm a flightless bird touchdown in America. What are your thoughts when I say the word sandwich? I fucking love sandwiches. You love a sandwich. So much. All of them. I love a grilled cheese. Oh, the classic.

Classic grilled cheese. I love a turkey sandwich, which is pretty basic. One of the most popular sandwiches in the world and pop off at airports all around the world. Airport's biggest seller, the turkey sandwich. And I'm a buyer. I always get one at the airport. I love it. Did you? Because, okay, so I also love sandwiches. Peanut butter and jelly. Oh, it's the best. I go to a cafe that makes a really good P&J sandwich here. Okay. And they add extra peanut butter and jam for me because I just like it so gooey.

Sometimes when I go and it's busy, they wave me around to the side window and they give me my peanut butter and jam sandwich. Wait a minute. Why can't we say their name? I don't want to say their name because I'm afraid they'll get, they're already popular. So it's not like they need a plug. And I'm worried if I name it, it'll get overrun. The line will double. Wow.

And so selfishly, I don't want people to know about it. Look, we've talked about places. Yeah, Courage Bagels, Maru Coffee. I do think it maybe had an effect on Maru, but not that extreme. This is another episode, but I do have an issue with lining up in America. Because in New Zealand, if there's a line, well, there isn't a line because the second a line forms, people give up. They're going somewhere else. In America, if people see a line, they go, wow, that must be popular.

We'd better line up for half an hour. Yes. For a tiny item. Oh. I was someone lining up for a little macaroon half an hour. Yes. For a tiny item. Oh. I was someone lining up for a little macaroon for an hour. It took about two seconds to eat. Wait, you did it? Yes. Okay.

Angry. I will stand in a line like for an exclusive limited edition item. Yeah. I've lined up at that coffee place with you, Rob Murrow, a lot. That line, there's a lot of funny people in the line because it's full of hipsters and so they're fun to look at. And it goes quick and part of it is just hanging out

in the line while you get your coffee. Yeah, and it's nice if you got company there, which is why I hang out with that macaroon. But honestly, we don't do lines, but why are we talking about lines? Okay, because, hold on, because you don't want to give the name of the Great Peanut Butter and Jelly place, and we don't have to give the name of the great peanut butter and jelly sandwich place. And we don't have to.

But I will say the peanut butter and jelly place is a ding, ding, ding to something we absolutely have to talk about, which is. Oh, yes. So this. Okay, I can do this. So I want to address this. So this cafe is on a walk that I do. And you texted me yesterday saying I was on a walk and I was walking quite fast and intently, which is how I tend to walk when I'm on my own. Yeah. And I apparently

completely blanked you. You didn't blank me in that. Did I pass you? Yeah, you passed me. I feel less bad about that. So maybe this isn't a face blindness issue It's just being unaware of my surroundings I think it was both Because it was hilarious I was with Liz And our friend Kate And we were walking And all of a sudden

You were in front of us Yeah, I'm a fast mover She has long legs You were moving so fast Your arms were kind of flailing. Were they flailing? A little, because what you don't want to tell people is it was a hike. We were going downhill.

This was a descent. And you. You sound like a clown that passed you. You didn't. But what's so funny is you didn't notice me was my takeaway. Well, I thought one of two things happened. One of three things. I thought you either didn't notice me was my takeaway. Well, I thought one of two things happened. One of three things. I thought you either didn't notice me at all.

You saw a group of girls who didn't recognize me. Or you knew it was me and just kept walking so fast in a hope that I didn't catch you. We need to put the kibosh on the last one because I definitely wasn't running away. Okay. You can't get away with that behavior. That would be crazy. Well, it was funny because as soon as you passed, I was like, oh my God, David's here. But I didn't yell.

For one, you were moving. You were walking really fast. And so I thought, okay, he's like in a hurry. Yeah, he's on a mission. you were moving you were walking really fast and so i thought okay he's like in a hurry yeah he's on a mission and then i thought well if option three was what he was doing i don't want to then be like david like call me out stop and talk when you clearly were avoiding so you caught me in what i do when i go on a hike which is i am listening to some really loud metal music. Okay. I'm in the zone. I didn't notice.

And I'm seeing nothing. Did you have AirPods in? Yeah. Okay. I was like, I didn't see. Oh, no, they were jammed in. Noise canceling. When I'm on one of those walks, I don't want to be dealing with anyone.

I'm just on a mission. I get that. But that's why I thought maybe you didn't want to deal. I'd deal with you. No, if I saw you, I'd absolutely. Say hi. I might want to keep going because I'm in the middle of my walk. Right. But I would absolutely would say hello. I'm not into social suicide.

Okay. I've got some limits of like how ridiculous I can be in the world. And I know there's rules. And one of the rules is you can't ignore your friends when you're on a walk. That's great, actually. Yeah, just so you know. Throw a rock at me or something next time. Give me a fright. I get frights easily as well. That's another thing about me.

If you tap me on the shoulder, I will jump and it will be funny. Okay, that's great. I'll get some video. I was off to get the peanut butter and jam sandwich at the bottom of the hill. Yum. Peanut butter and jam. I don't know about it. I'm definitely getting it soon. It's really good. That's my favorite sandwich. Any other faves that you have?

Yeah, so I love a Subway style sandwich. Yes. Okay. So there's different styles, right? You've got your like flat between two bits of bread. Yes. Which you'll get at the airport often. Sure.

You've got your Subway. Yep. And then I have a question about hot dogs. Because a hot dog is technically meat between bread. Bread. Is that a sandwich? For me, absolutely not. That's its own category.

What constitutes a sandwich? I think we need to define this. It's important. I don't think a hot dog is a sandwich. Right. But technically it should be because it's meat between two pieces of bread. But you'd say a hot dog isn't a sandwich

because it's one piece of bread and it's kind of like half cut. Yeah. But a Subway sandwich, is that two pieces of bread? Yeah Yeah, that's two pieces It's two slices Maybe it has to be two slices Okay, so it has to be two slices

Okay, we've defined that Okay, I also love a grilled sandwich Yummy I love a, wait, I just remembered a type that we're totally forgetting Onion? Onion Onion sandwich? And your cheese sandwich, put a bit of onion, yum yum I love a, wait, I just remembered a type that we're totally forgetting. Onion? Onion sandwich? In your cheese sandwich, put a bit of onion, yum, yum. We don't have that here.

We don't do that here. Wait, yeah, this is interesting. What kind of combos? So that's a common combo, cheese and onion? The ham and cheese is the biggest. I also fucking love a ham and cheese sandwich so much. People will buy a little home grill just so they can have the ham and cheese. And when it dribbles and oozes out the side a little bit,

got to be careful though, it gets a bit hot. Burnt my tongue many times because I've been too eager to eat it. I've never learned. 39, still getting a burnt tongue on the ham and cheese. Jess does this too. Every time he eats a sandwich, it's like hot and crusty and then he calls himself Cuts Roland because his mouth is all

cut up from the bread. It's really, really good. Wait, no, I'm forgetting a really important sandwich. It can't be that important. No, it's so important. Oh, the breakfast sandwich. What does that...

That's what... We're having, we're about to have one. You don't know about breakfast sandwiches? The breakfast sandwich. What does that? We're having. We're about to have one. You don't know about breakfast sandwiches? I know they exist. I think I've seen them on menus. I've never ordered one here. Oh, they're so good.

I mean, it's two pieces of bread, so it qualifies. Two slices. Sometimes sausage or bacon. Egg is the staple. I made a really good. Shout out Molly Boz, who is a chef. She makes cooking videos. And she has a video for the smash patty breakfast sandwich. Sounds good.

And you cook the sausage like a smash burger. What's a smash burger? Oh, no. Oh, my my god is it a cheeseburger yeah it's a type of cheeseburger where the meat is really thin it's so why is it called smash is it because you smash it down real quick because it's so thin yeah you smash the meat when you make the patty you smash it all right so it's the whole burger or just the meat the meat okay yeah Oh, right. So it's super thin. The whole burger or just the meat?

The meat. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so the meat is smashed super thin. That's the smash. Okay. So it's a completely normal. So if a McDonald's cheeseburger, if I got the patty out and squished it down and inserted it back into the cheeseburger, that would be a smash burger?

It's not. You have to squish it while it's raw so that it cooks. It's like it's almost crispy. I understand. Okay. Okay, I'm with you. So then the sausage is that. You make it into a

patty and then you smash it. So it's super thin. You do like really thinly sliced shaved onions. Then you put that in the skillet and the onions get kind of caramelized. You flip it and you put cheese on it. And then it's on an English muffin with hot sauce, mayo. Oh, it's so good. This is a sidebar, but something that in America that gets me quite often is the scone. Because the scone that you get in America, it's different to a scone in New Zealand. Oh, what's the difference? It's just different And I need to look into the recipe Because whenever I see a scone advertised here

Or a scone as you like to call it I always get excited And I'll purchase it And I'll eat it And I'll want to vomit Okay There's something off I'll meet you here

Because I'm not a fan of scones They're way too dry so dry yeah and they don't butter them here either it's just dry it's like there's nothing else on there it's crazy to me this is all this is great we're brainstorming future episodes so many good episodes oh but okay i do want to real quick revisit subway because and this sounds similar so liz ding ding ding liz recently her and i were having a conversation about Subway. And she was like, well, that was when like Subway was new. And I was like, what do you, Subway was new in like the 70s.

She was talking about like five years ago or something. Oh, right. No. And I was like, no, no. Subway's old. It's old. And she was really having a hard time. Getting her head around that.

She didn't believe me. She thought it had popped up sort of in the last five years. Well, hold on. I have a little video of this that I should play because I was shocked because she's from Montreal. So it did come there later. Yeah, the same thing with New Zealand. It got to us late, you know. But when?

And we loved it. Okay, so let me have a look here. I'm going to find out. So we got our first Subway in, yeah, in 95. Right. And it's like the 70s, I think. I'm just going to quickly check, quick live fact check of when Subway came to America.

Well, it was formerly known as Pete's Super Submarines, which opened in 1965. Okay. And then it was actual Subway was founded officially 57 years ago in 1965 in Bridgeport, Connecticut. See? The 60s. Yeah. And you guys just got it.

Yeah. Well, we got it because Jared was such a good salesman. Like when he came on board and it was that whole eat the sandwich and you will drop down in size. Yeah. That marketing campaign went bonkers all over the world. And I love that Subway put all its eggs in that one basket. They're like, what can go wrong if we put this one man in all our – And it couldn't have gone more wrong. I feel so sad for them that that happened.

Okay, hold on. This is Liz. What did you just say? What did you say? I, with confidence, can say that Subway, at its inception, okay? When it was like

in the 70s. No, no. Okay? Like, 2002 Subway is 2020 Shake Shack. Uh-oh. It's Shake Shack. It was the Shake Shack

of Subway sandwiches. Now it hasn't evolved, so it's Subway. No, Jimmy John's is the Shake Shack, was the Shake Shack version of Subway. Now it's Jersey Mike's. I don't— I've never heard of that. And when did you move to this country? So, she's all askeww and I think you maybe are too.

Oh, I definitely am. All the references she just said, I've been to Shake Shack and that was yummy. Actually, that was the night I vomited actually at 3 a.m. I had it at 12 a.m. and vomited at 3 a.m. So that doesn't bode well. But it was delicious at the time. That's because you were drinking. Yeah, I was drinking. It wasn't at 3 a.m., so that doesn't bode well. But it was delicious at the time. That's because you were drinking at the time. Yeah, it wasn't Shake Shack, it was the drinking.

But my point is, all these references and how much they've changed, I don't know what these places represent at all. Like, I don't know what Subway represents, what Jersey Mike represents. Jersey Mike's is so good. If they want to sponsor us... Come on board. I mean, I would eat Jersey Mike's every day. I love it so good. If they want to sponsor us, come on board. I mean, I would eat Jersey Mike's every day. I love it so much. Also,

is a burger a sandwich? That's too independent. It's too bits of bread. I think it's the patty that maybe breaks it out of the sandwich. So the second you put a patty into a sandwich, it turns into a burger. No, I don't think so, because what about... It's the bun. It's the circular bun. Is a circular sandwich a burger no but i don't think so because what about it's the bun it's the

circular bun no it's i think it's a circular sandwich a burger it's the patty that's the meat patty that will would break it out no a breakfast sandwich has a meat patty also a tuna melt sometimes is formed into a patty and that's No, I love a tuna melt Oh my god, I love sandwiches But that is A sandwich This documentary, it's big And look, I just want to say

We're not going to cover everything in here Yeah, this is a huge topic My documentary is small, is what I'm saying The topic is big And so I had to go niche with this Because I kept hearing about the Philly cheesecake sandwich A great sandwich It's been definitively a good sandwich

So I've zeroed in on that And I know in doing that There's going to be people listening to this that are like Why are you talking about this sandwich and that sandwich? The topic's too big Well, also, I know why Because this show's about American things you're learning about And they do have sandwiches in New Zealand.

We do. That's a really good point. We absolutely do have sandwiches. We don't have Philly cheesecake sandwiches. So I set off for Philly. I do think sometimes you accidentally say cheesecakes. Oh, I do. I just did it.

I do it in the dock as well. Cheese steak. Yeah. It's a tricky one Talking, says the clown who races past you flailing his arms Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors Flightless Bird is sponsored by BetterHelp

Now, I don't know about you Monica, but I feel at my best after I've been on a big walk. If I get up in the morning and stay in bed, like, oh, I'm going to have a little lie-in, I get really sad. If I get out and start walking up a big hill or something, happy. Physical activity, it releases endorphins. It's one of the best things.

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In Australia, similar to New Zealand, we have similar foods. And they made sausage rolls. He bought the dough, he made the dough, wrapped the meat up, put it in the oven. And the thing that makes a saucy roll is ketchup. And you supplied the ketchup. Oh, yeah. Primal Kitchen ketchup, put it in the oven. And the thing that makes a saucy roll is ketchup. And you supplied the ketchup. Oh, yeah. Primal Kitchen ketchup. It was the organic one. They do an unsweetened.

The organic one is the one that I use because it tastes like being in New Zealand and getting like a hit of the best ketchup I've ever tasted in my life. So, yeah. I really like their mayo because it has avocado oil. So it's a really nice, fatty, delicious oil. I want to do a mayo episode of the show because Americans are obsessed with mayo in a way that New Zealanders aren't. Oh my God, we should do a mayo taste test.

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Listeners to Flightless Bird can save 20% at primalkitchen.com slash flightlessbird. Or find Primal Kitchen products at your favorite local grocery store or retailer. I set off for Philadelphia to make this documentary and this is what happened. I'm in South Philadelphia where I was neither born nor raised. I'm walking down South 9th Street. It's incredibly Italian with delicious food everywhere. I walk past a shop window displaying all images of the mafia films they've shot in the area. And then I see it on the other side of the road, a huge orange awning around the sides of the place.

Gino's. It's about 2 p.m., lunch is dying down, but all the tables outside Gino's are full of people shoving sandwiches in their faces. I saw you eating there enthusiastically. I've heard this place is quite good. What do you think of it? I think it's pretty phenomenal, I have to say. What's your default order? That would be the mushroom Philly cheesesteak with peppers and onions,

provolone cheese on it, and then French fries on the side with the cheese. The Philly cheesesteak sandwich, it's what I've come to investigate. I've been told by multiple people to come to Jim's Steaks, but that wasn't going to happen. But the big story on Action News this noon is breaking in South Philadelphia. Right now, dozens of firefighters are on the scene at Jim's on South Street battling a two-alarm fire. Chopper 6 live over the scene as the firefight is underway. And back in July, an electrical fault led to a huge fire. So Jim's was very, very closed. And so I've arrived at Gino's.

It's been here 56 years. It's been at the same location for that whole time. Opened in 1966 by Joey Vento. Joey named it after his son, Gino, who took the place over when his father died in 2011. I've come here to meet Gino. Jeffrey Burris. I'm the general manager of Gino Steaks. Been here for 38 years. This isn't Gino. It's Jeffrey, the general manager. Obviously you're not Gino. How's Gino doing? Is he well? Yes, he knows very well. He had prior engagements where we had to go take care of business earlier and he had to get back to Delaware. Considering Jeff has been here

for over 38 years, I figure he'll know the sandwich game. I came here to learn about sandwiches and he would be my teacher. He leads me inside. There's no indoor seating at Gino's, so inside means the kitchen. There's one table in the corner and we take a seat. It's my first time here. I'm gathering it's a very passionate city about various things. Very passionate. Passionate about, obviously, it's sports clubs, it's food, it's heritage, whether it be history or even certain nationalities that basically were born and raised here.

Like we're on the Italian market, which it's a street stand of fruits and vegetables that are in New York. Basically, I'm sure in Italy and stuff like that. And that's where it originated from. Rocky ran through it. Rocky ran down the street. I'd just walked down. And after Rocky ran, he sat down, he rested, and he ate a sandwich. We're the sandwich capital of the world.

Whether it's cheesesteaks, hoagies, porks, all derives from Philadelphia, mainly South Philly. And that's where the bread basically is the best at and everything else. So you want a sandwich or you want a good Italian meal, whether it be Asian, Mexican meal, there's all kind of basically restaurants that are very popular around here. But when it comes to us, we're basically pushing a cheesesteak. Just rewind briefly, what's a hoagie? Hoagie is what some people call a sub sandwich, a submarine sandwich, or other cities, a hero.

But it's a hoagie in Philadelphia and South Jersey. And basically that's similar to that. And we have the best one of anyone. Like New York might say they have the best sub sandwiches, hero, stuff like that. Subway, and not to offend anybody, compared to the real Italian hoagies, it's not even close. But they're the biggest chain in the country. You got to give credit where credit's due. I wasn't here for a cold hoagie. I was here for a hot steaming cheesesteak sandwich. What defines a cheesesteak sandwich? Well, a lot of people make it a different way. And their modern generation think it should be chopped meat.

And some people think you get mushrooms, peppers, and all that stuff on it. But basically, a cheesesteak is originated with thinly sliced ribeye. And it was no cheese. It was just a steak sandwich with or without onions. During the course of the 40, 50 years of its existence, cheese was added to it. And it became one of the most popular, if not the most popular sandwich it is. Now it's an institution, a landmark for Philadelphia. But basically, that's the original cheesesteak, a thinly sliced ribeye. Don't let anybody else tell you anything different, whether it's topping around, sirloin.

That's what the original steak sandwich was. And you got to use different kind of ribeyes, which we use a steer. And it could be kale and stuff like that, whatever it may be, but that is fine. And we pride ourselves in the quality of our ribeye. We get up and Jeff shows me around the kitchen. They only take cash here, apparently to keep the lines moving faster.

They have two windows. One serves sandwiches and the other deals with drinks. They're open 24-7, only closing on Thanksgiving and Christmas. A giant grill sits between the two windows. It's a big grill. Seven footer. There's a cook there already but Gino grabs some thin slithers of meat and throws them on. How many sandwiches do you reckon you guys have made in here? Over the years? Yeah. Too many to count. Millions and millions. The steak sizzles and pops.

The grill is right up by the window so when I look up I look out into a bunch of hungry eyes. Jeff's grabbed a big tub of something yellow and gooey and shows it to me eagerly. We have three types of cheese. We got the whiz, that's what I want to give you, it's the most popular. That basically is what the cheesesteak is now, is cheese whiz. We also use an American, which was the original cheese, and provolone. To our left is Andrea, manning the main window where the sandwich orders fly in. She's tiny, but I feel like she's probably also pretty fierce. Good customers? Polite?

Always. They're good. Some of them. Some of them, no. You deal with them? Yeah. It's fun. In the middle of the kitchen is Frank, who's in charge of the drinks window. And you've got the coffee brewing over here? Oh yeah, yeah, it's some really good coffee. It's an old school Philadelphia brand. I'm not a coffee guy but this is a great coffee. Great coffee. I'm not going to try and do that accent. The New Zealand accent and the Philly accent are so different I'm surprised any of us understand each other. I never knew I had an accent until I went to Northeast and a friend of mine was

seeing some girl over there and ever saying I really got a hard accent. I thought my friends had a harder accent than me. So I was told by many people that my South Philly accent is really, really harsh. But don't know where it comes from. I guess just like New Yorkers have their own kind of accent in different parts, whether it be Brooklyn, Bronx. I don't know what Manhattan has, but obviously they have their own. The same thing with Philadelphia, particularly South Philly. It's a great accent. I love it know what Manhattan has, but obviously they have their own. The same thing with Philadelphia, particularly South Philly. It's a great accent. I love it. Don't lose it.

You got a better one. As I watch all the activity, I look out the window across the street. I heard there's another sandwich shop nearby that's embroiled in some kind of beef with Geno's. Jeff's been here for nearly 40 years. I figured he'd know about it. They're on the same corner. Well, obviously on the same street, but the opposite corner. We both have the same street number, but one's actually on Wharton Street and we're on Pass Yonk Avenue. And that so-called place did originate the steak sandwich, but we perfected it. So that's where we came along and basically started to see all that thunder, which we did do. Okay, so the place on the opposite corner of where we are now, I glance over and see a giant sign. Pat's King of Steaks.

But it was very nasty back in the day. Yeah, it wasn't fun. The original owners basically were friends at one time, and I guess the one didn't like competition, so then he basically started a conflict with Jovento, who was originally Geno Steaks, and as that escalated, it heated up, and they were, put it this way, friends but in the very, very, very slimmest of passions,

you know, for two guys that actually were friends when they were younger. The owners now of that other place and our place are actually friends. As time goes along, generations change, cultures change, stuff like that, and basically that's how it is now. But it was heated for a very long period of time.

I'm glad the battle between Geno's and neighboring Pat's has cooled down, but I keep thinking about how Jeff talked about Pat's. That so-called place. He won't even say their name. We came along and basically started to seal their thunder, which we did do. Which we did do. Hmm. Everybody needs competition. I always say that. Friendly competition is good. Slight unfriendly competition is good.

Now if it was push come to shove, a problem in both places, we would help each other out. Friendly slash slightly unfriendly competition is how Jeff put it. Frankie is the owner of that in Geno. And actually there's a picture of, there was a picture of them in here. He gets up and starts scanning a bunch of photos pinned on the wall behind us, trying to find the photo that proves the truce. And it's there. My eyes glance around more of the photos.

And it's a treasure trove of celebrity. I see Guy Ferreri. Danny DeVito's been here. So is Cher. Jeff has his own favorite celebrity visitors. One is Adam Sandler, who was a real gentleman. You know, came in and basically shook everybody's hand. Actually, there's a few of them like that.

Vince Vaughn was very gentlemanly. Nicolas Cage, he was a character. Jack Nicholson waited in line. Didn't want to come in. He wanted to stay in line. Like, I walked outside and said, you know, you can come inside. He goes, no, I'm going to stay in line. Just like another customer and stuff like that very very cool people were

actually afraid to confront him and asked if it was him or not and he was really really down there he had a fun thing to say we were talking about the window and we have a actually a celebrity book that they signed and his autograph actually is the face of himself so it was really really cool as we've been talking my cheesesteak sandwich is being completed. I'm handed this warm, foot-long monster wrapped in paper. I duck outside to eat it. And as I unwrap it, the smell and the heat hit me. It's good.

The paper's covered in grease, which is now all over my fingers. All right, I'm about to eat my first cheesecake sandwich. Very greasy. Yum. Oh, it's really good. There's a lot of flavor. You can taste the cheese, you can taste the steak, you can taste the bread. A plus. This whole time, I keep thinking

about Pats, the name that Jeff refuses to say. I can see it now staring at me across the street. It's time to go and get their side of the story. So I say my goodbyes to Jeff. As I leave, I notice the bottle he's been gripping this whole time. Every now and then, between questions, he's been taking a swig. What are you drinking? You got protein in there. It looks like it doesn't have any flavor in it. It's just vanilla? It's vanilla, yes.

You ever think about putting a bit of chocolate or something in there? No, I like it like this. Quick and easy. Everything basically speed with me. I gotta get done. I also have things to get done. But before I go, I meet Franco,

who's just joined the line at Gino's. I'm getting my dad a cheesesteak with American cheese and raw onions. Which has the best cheesesteak, do you think Pat's or Geno's? I prefer Pat's, my dad prefers Geno's. That's why I'm in line for Geno's right now. And people go apeshit for this stuff. Every sports game, the first 20 minutes of the game they'll have have an expose on the cheesesteak with people eating them, people raiding them.

Yeah, it's crazy. And are you from Philly or somewhere else? Yeah. What is it about Philly that makes Philly Philly, besides the cheesesteak sandwiches? People think that everybody from Philly is mean, but they're actually kind, not nice. It's kindness, not niceness.

That's the big difference. What is the, because I'm from New Zealand, where everyone is either kind or nice. I'm not sure which. What's the difference between the two? Nice and surface level. Kindness is like, I care about you as a person. That's the difference. Niceness and kindness. Which one am I? Something to talk about with my new therapist. I head across the street for Pat's on the other corner, the sworn alleged ex-enemy of Gino's. I meet with Carlos, the daytime manager,

who definitely doesn't undersell things. We're the Cathedral of Cheesesteaks, Pat's King of Steaks. We are the inventor of the steak sandwich. We've been around since 1930. It's the iconic cheesesteak place of all over the world. He's right. Pat's invented the cheesesteak sandwich. The story goes that in 1933, co-founder Pat was sick of hot dogs. So went and sliced up some beef and onions, cooked it up, and threw it in a sandwich. A cab driver arrived and said it smelled so good, he wanted some. The demand had started almost immediately. The cheese element,

now deemed a very important element, arrived years later. We have all three choices of cheeses. Cheez Whiz is the classic, the original. We also have American and provolone as well. But Cheez Whiz and onions is the best way to go. 90% of the people that come and visit Philadelphia absolutely go for the Whiz because it's the local way. There was just a crazy random fan that just wanted to buy multiple bags of Cheez Whiz and laid bare naked in the street and just covered himself in Cheez Whiz. With talk of the Cheez Whiz and laid bare naked in the street and just covered himself in Cheez Whiz. With talk of the Cheez Whiz done, I turned the conversation to the Cheez Wars,

the alleged battle with Genos. There's never any beef, but who is the other place? And like Jeffrey not saying the name, Pats out loud, Carlos refuses to utter the word Genos. Oh yeah, yeah, I heard they have pretty lights. They're good at changing light bulbs. utter the word chinos. And with that he runs inside, returning with another greasy foot-long package. A Pat's cheesesteak sandwich. Probably just to shut me up. I'm too cowardly to tell him I've already eaten at the competition, so sheepishly unwrap it and start chewing. It's really good, but I've already got a foot worth inside me already. This other foot's a lot. I'm approached by a spindly looking man with white hair and a happy

smile. He's heard my accent. He used to visit New Zealand a lot when he was younger. I only pray that I live long enough to do that again. I would move there if they'd have me. I would move there. I love that place. His name's Mel, and Mel tells me he supplies both Pat's and Gina's with their soda. He's been making soda for 55 years with the business his brother founded in 1963. When his brother passed away, Mel kept it going. Well, we have unusual flavors here. Red cream, birch beer, Stewart's root beer. We have tea here, Mel kept it going. Frank's beverage. They also had a flavor called black cherry Wischniak. We make that also. And that's very, very popular. Mel tells me the soda is the perfect complement to the cheesesteak sandwich, which is why he supplies a lot of places around here. Like some kind of soda magician, he magics up a cup of root beer in front of me. It certainly helps get the second cheesesteak down.

That roll and the meat together, it's a beautiful thing. And the Cheez Whiz. These guys use a lot of Cheez Whiz, believe me, by the trail of load. And for clarity, Cheez Whiz, it's cheese as a liquid, right? Well, I don't think anybody knows the secret of Cheez Whiz. It looks like cheese. It tastes like cheese. Is it cheese? Who knows? I look it up online. Cheez Whiz was first sold in 1952. In an ad back then, the substance's original ingredients were revealed. American cheese, water, nonfat dry milk solids, condensed whey, sodium phosphate, cream, Worcester sauce, lactic acid, mustard, salt, and coloring.

That combo of ingredients is like magic sauce for the Philly cheesesteak, Philly's most popular sandwich. As I've been sitting talking to Mel, a line's already formed. I'm just checking it out. I'm making a podcast about cheesesteaks. I love them Philly cheesesteaks, man. I love them. I love them. What makes them good? I think Philly got their own style of cheesecake. I feel lucky to have experienced not just one, but two giant sandwiches. And Mel's root beer.

And the friendly slash unfriendly rivalry between two businesses who refuse to say each other's names, all on the very same street Rocky Balboa once ran down. I'm going to a Philly game tonight, so, yeah, so far I'm loving it. I'm loving the food, I'm loving the people, I'm loving the vibe, I'm loving it. I'm loving it. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors flightless bird is brought to you by indeed now what's better than finding quality candidates

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I love Philly so much. Wow. Okay. First of all, that was fascinating. I loved that. When I was talking to Gino's about all this when he was talking about the place across the road and refusing to say the name yeah because i'd heard about the rivalry going in there but do you hear him refuse to say the name it said everything you

needed to know like the hatfields and mccoys it's like an old american rivalry yeah wouldn't say a word about it wouldn't say say it. Just that place. Okay. And what was the best one? This was a really difficult thing to review because at Gino's I'd already stuffed a foot long. I ate the whole thing. It was like a while ago when we did the soda taste test. Instead of having a little sip, I made that mistake and just drank the whole cup. I have no impulse control. So if something's in front of me, I have to eat the whole thing. And I knew going into that situation that I was going to go and explore across the road. And yet I still ate the whole thing. My point being, Gino's tasted better, but that's because I was really hungry. Yes. Pat's the originator of the cheesecake cake. Okay. So we need to address this as well.

So I can't say cheesesteak. I say cheesecake. But I'd like to add that Delightful Man at the end of the documentary also said cheesecake. He also slipped up. Yeah, he did. I think that should be called a cheesecake. A cheesecake sounds so delicious. We already have a cheesecake.

Oh, we do. That's right. Have you had cheesecake before? And I love cheesecake. When I say cheesecake, I say cheesesteak What the fuck? Oh, that's wild That was real time That all happened just in front of our eyes

Okay, so thinking really carefully about how I'm talking I have had cheesecake before And it's a delicious dessert It's delicious So we can't name a cheese steak a cheese cake. Good job. Just slow it down when you talk. I get excited.

Okay, so they were both delicious. Okay. Did you taste a major difference? They tasted the same. They did. To be honest, both of them just tasted like cheese whiz. Yeah. Okay, this is so interesting.

What color was the whiz? Okay, so Jeffrey got out a big sort of vat of it in Geno's, and it was just very yellow, like a dark yellow. Okay, because when I imagine a Philly cheesesteak, I imagine white cheese. Right. It's not provolone. It's way more melty than a provolone normally melts

so you've had a philly cheesesteak as well many times but i've never had one from philly all right so maybe the yellow cheese whiz is there is that's their thing i mean there was a mention of that guy that came with some sort of like festival going on and they had the guy that bought a lot of Cheez Whiz And just poured it He got nude and just poured it all over himself Which is so extreme There's also something else very American that happened

When I went there to record this episode There'd been a big win For their local sports team And people were on the streets And everyone kept saying They're greasing the poles And what the police do is They put like Vaseline on the poles

Do you have Vaseline in America? Yeah, of course They were greasing up the poles Because people climb the poles in Philly That's what they do What poles? Just poles Street lights

Like street lights Oh, like telephone poles So when there's a big game in Philly From what they told me I might be wrong about this, the police go out and just Vaseline up all the poles so that Philadelphians can't climb them. Wow. That is so specific to Philly.

Yeah. And it's multiple people. They're like, do you know they're greasing the poles? And I'm like, what are you talking about? Why are they greasing the poles? It's like in New Zealand, we have a problem with possums that eat all our, they're introduced and they eat all the forest. Yeah. And so in New Zealand, they'll put sometimes a metal ring around the base of a tree and it stops the possum climbing up to the top.

And I feel that's what they're doing in Philadelphia with their citizens. It is. As they're grazing the poles. Wow. Just another fact. Using the poles. Wow. Just another fact.

I want to revisit real quick the boy man who said when he started diving in about kindness versus niceness, being nice. Oh, yeah. He was so lovely. I have a whole theory around that as well. Okay. I want to understand this because I still don't know the difference. Okay. I totally agree with him that being nice is very, it's being pleasant. It's very surface.

And kindness is about actual care. Like care and doing and action. Yes. The South, they're known for Southern hospitality. It's very nice. But I don't personally find it to be kind. Oh, really? Oh, so you think it's all kind of surface.

It's like more of an image thing as opposed to. Yeah. Like everyone will, you know, you'll stop and talk. Everyone's so polite and nice and it feels warm. That's New Zealand as well. We do it. But they're not really caring because you'll leave and then they'll call you like a bad name. I feel like the whole of New Zealand and the South is now turning against us. But in New Zealand,

we definitely, or maybe I do, it is this thing where in New Zealand, and this is my experience of it, I'm sure it's not everyone's, but it probably is. No one wants to be the bad guy. So everyone is just always going through desperately trying not to say anything critical or bad. And so I think there's a lot of niceness in New Zealand. Yeah. And it's not always the real deal. Exactly.

And then you don't know what's honest or true. It's confusing. Yes. Where do you go in America, would you say, for kindness? Kindness? And how common is it? Philly, obviously, according to this gentleman I spoke to, Philly is kind. That's a great question. I haven't been to Philly is kind That's a great question

I haven't been to Philly So I don't know I mean maybe I'm totally deluded I feel like there's a fair amount of kindness here I feel like there's kindness here on the west coast Because we're surrounded by We do have nice people in our lives But it's not nice

The nice kind continuum is a really interesting thing. I've been saying this for years. Yeah. I've never even thought about it before. I assumed they were the same thing, but of course they're different now I hear it. Well, because I also say that I don't care about people being nice. That's not a quality that I need out of

a person. Kindness, yes, but not being nice. I don't need some surface niceness. There's also honesty that comes into the equation, right? There's like a triangle between niceness, kindness, and honesty. That's kind of a thing. I will think more about this. I want to figure this out. There was another thing that I covered in my documentary that I want to get into now, and it was sort of a random thing that appeared in my life out of nowhere. That was going to be the end of the doc.

I go to Philly, that was the end. But there's more sandwiches to explore. Oh, and then can I eat while this happens? I did get an expert opinion on if a hot dog or a burger is a sandwich. And by who? Michael Voltaggio. Okay. Oh, la la.

What did he say? He said, I would personally not call it a sandwich. Most sandwich shops don't sell burgers or hot dogs. Most menus have both and would list categories as burgers or sandwiches. I would never say, I would like to have the hot dog sandwich, please. I would say, I'll have the turkey sandwich. And I would never say, I'll have the hamburger sandwich. But I will say, I'll have the roast beef sandwich.

Yeah, I guess that's true. I mean, but we need to know what his definition. Okay, look, because I looked up the definition of a sandwich. A dish or foodstuff where at least one piece, but typically two or more pieces of bread, serve as the wrapper or container of some other food. A burger would fit into that description lot would fit in michael's coming from like a cultural sort of perspective which i get he did say if a burger is between sliced bread that's a patty melt not a burger right instead of a bun

he said it's so confusing at the end of the day they're all heroes to him everyone's making up their own rules it's not how rules work okay what about the chicken of the day, they're all heroes to him. Everyone's making up their own rules. It's not how rules work. Okay, what about the chicken sandwich? The fried chicken sandwich is way more akin to a burger. And that's a sandwich. You would never call that a burger. Right, right, right, right. But it's in a burger bun.

Yeah. This is getting crazy now. To me, it's just a marketing thing. It's whatever a marketing thing. It's whatever these restaurants are deciding to call it. Choose to call it and shove it down our throats. Wow. It's fascinating. All right.

Scrolling through my Instagram, it's a real insight into what I'm passionate about. A lot of the videos on my feed right now are cats doing that eck, eck, eck thing. You know, the sound cats make when they see a fly buzzing around the room or a bird out the window. I could listen to ek ek ek videos all day, but recently something else appeared on my feed. A man reviewing American sandwiches. Welcome to Sandwiches of History today from 1001 Sandwiches in 1936. We're making the peanut butter and tomato sandwich. To be more specific, it's a man who reviews very, very old sandwich recipes. He makes them, as the recipe book states, and then eats and reviews them. All right, while the tomatoes finish marinating in the French dressing,

we are to spread peanut butter thickly onto bread. And now we put our tomatoes that have been soaking in French dressing onto the peanut butter. Okay, let's give this peanut butter and tomato sandwich a go. His Instagram handle is sandwichesofhistory, but his real name is Barry. I wanted to track Barry down to learn about what sandwiches used to be like before the arrival of Subway or the Philly cheesesteak sandwich. Like an Instagram creep, I friended him and slid into Barry's DMs. Sometimes they're good and sometimes they have potential. And if they have potential, I'll plus them up, add ingredients so that they taste good for the modern palate. And then there's some that just go straight in the trash.

That peanut butter and tomato combo was one of the ones that ended up in the bin. What do you think so far has been the most offensive flavor that you've combined into one of your sandwiches? It's not so much the ingredient itself as it is the ratio or the combination. So recently I did a banana, lettuce, and anchovy sandwich. And I'm like, okay, that could work, except it called for anchovy paste. And it was just awful. The amount of anchovy paste it calls for is cruel. Like, I don't know why anyone would eat this or serve it to anyone unless I hated them. You wonder if people's palates have changed over the decades. What's your theory? I think so. I think palates have changed. People used to smoke a lot more back in the day.

So that probably helped change their taste buds as well. You know, ingredients have changed somewhat over time. And that's been fun to learn about how like ketchup started off as actually fish sauce in China, but brought back to England. England kind of messed around with it, did some mushroom-based ones, some walnut-based ones, got to America and tomato-based one was created. Ketchup is what you call it in America. In New Zealand, we call ketchup tomato sauce, which is very confusing because tomato sauce is very different to Americans. Anyway, in America, Heinz is the big brand of ketchup, cornering 60% of the market here. The great thing about sandwiches is you can just put anything in there, any combination of things. It cuts across cuisines, tastes, diets. Whatever your diet is, you can make a sandwich. Even

gluten-free. You can use gluten-free bread and still make a sandwich. Plus, sandwiches are portable. As we learned in the burgers episode of Flightless Bird, a portable food is a winning food. Americans are on the go. They've got places to be, things to do, people to meet, and they've got to eat while they're doing it all. Americans, we're not great at slowing down. We're always going from one place to another, doing things, getting things done. I mean, the drive-thrus at restaurants are evidence of that. He's picked up patterns along the way, things America does and doesn't do to its sandwiches. Like at some point, Americans

stopped buttering their bread as much. I'm sure some Americans still butter their bread, but back in the day, every American buttered every piece of bread. Something that the UK and Ireland still does, but we do not do, butter bread. Almost every recipe in these books call for us to butter the bread. Even if there's butter in the filling, whatever the filling of the sandwich is, the bread gets buttered. I get asked all the time, why is that? Well, butter was easily attainable. You could make butter at home. All you had to do was churn milk. The other thing is calories. There's a good source of calories and fat. And then three,

it acted as a moisture barrier, so it didn't sog out the bread and have the sandwich fall apart. It could actually kind of keep this stuff together so you could eat the sandwich in a timely fashion. Yeah, we are big bread butterers in New Zealand. I could never have a sandwich without buttering it. bread butters in New Zealand. I could never have a sandwich without buttering it. Right. Here, it was the norm until probably, it seems like the 60s or 70s. And I don't know how mayonnaise got in, but mayonnaise got in. Americans love mayonnaise. It's everywhere and it's delicious. It's pretty much a whole aisle at the grocery store. We have it in New Zealand, but we just don't have the mayo obsession of the USA. I think it's got a slight flavor to it. It's got a definite richness to it. And it's got a mouthfeel that's different than butter. Butter feels like it's almost oily when you're rolling it around on your tongue, whereas

mayonnaise just feels kind of like a luxurious sauce. Barry says as well as sandwich disasters, there's also plenty of sandwich delights he's discovered along the way. One sandwich that did surprise me a little bit was the World War II sandwich from Britain, banana sandwich. In World War II, they couldn't get fresh bananas because, you know, war. So what they did is they would boil parsnips, they would peel parsnips, boil them, mash them, put in a little sugar and a little bit of banana essence, which is basically banana extract, mix it up, put it in between buttered bread. And I swear, you'd be hard-pressed to tell that that was not a banana mashed up between bread.

It was a very ingenious way to get around the fact that you could not get banana and still have the sweet treat during wartime. One thing Barry has to contend with that many foodies don't is the fact he's dealing with recipes that are really, really old. Times have changed since the recipes were written. That can be a problem. Was there anything from some of these older American recipes that you found difficult to get here in 2022? Yeah, so some of the ingredients, like they'll say, open a box of sardines. I don't know what a box of sardines even would be. So

there are some difficulties in getting some ingredients. I've had to know what a box of sardines even would be. So there are some difficulties in getting some ingredients. I've had to learn what a salt spoon is, because that's a measurement they used to use. It's actually about a quarter of a teaspoon. I also have learned that they used to say things like, put the sandwich in a moderate oven. And a moderate oven is from like 350 to 400. So I've had to learn those kinds of things as well. The recipes back in the day were more art and less science. So one of the recipes in the up-to-date sandwich book of 1909 says to

assemble the filling, put it between the bread, dip the bread in a mixture of beaten egg and milk, and that's it. The instructions just stop there. And it's like, okay, I know I'm going to go ahead and make the leap that you want me to cook this and not feed it to someone raw. They also do recipes where there's no measurements, or half the stuff has measurements, and the other half is like mayonnaise. How much mayonnaise? Is this a recipe or not? What are you doing? Along the way, Barry's been reminded that, like us mere mortals,

American celebrities also love sandwiches. One in particular really loved them. and not ones that were particularly healthy. The Elvis sandwiches are amazing to me. There's a few sandwiches that he enjoyed. One that everyone thinks has bacon does not. It's the peanut butter banana and then fried butter. I look up an old clip from Letterman in 1987. He's got Elvis' cook on, Mary Jenkins, and she's making Elvis' favorite sandwich. And some toast? Yeah, toast. And then you're applying what appears to be peanut butter.

That's right. Peanut butter. Applying the peanut butter. Now, was this a recipe that you invented or Elvis invented? He went on a tour. And when he came back, he brought this with him. One of the other ones he liked was called The Fool's Gold. It's from Colorado.

And he apparently flew his private jet with all his cronies to Denver, sat in the plane, ordered like 20 of these sandwiches, had them delivered to the hangar, they sat there, polished them off, and flew home. It's basically bread that gets hollowed out a little bit, jar of peanut butter, jar of blueberry preserves, bacon. And it is quite tasty, especially with a little chili powder on it.

And then there's another Elvis sandwich that involves bacon and fried potato slices. He loved his sandwiches, and he loved his fried, and he loved his bacon. Like Elvis, Barry's eaten hundreds and hundreds of sandwiches, more than the average American and certainly more than the average Kiwi. And despite having a very niche topic to pour his heart and soul into, sandwiches of history, Barry's confident he won't be running out of recipes anytime soon. People asked me when I first started, like, what are you going to do when you run out of sandwiches? The up-to-date sandwich book of 1909 had 400 sandwiches, so it

was going to be a while then. Then I found this one that was 1,001 sandwiches, and I'm never going to run out of sandwiches to me. I really loved Barry because he just opened up this whole other world. 400 sandwiches in one book. That's insane. His Instagram is sandwiches of history. And it's just every day it's a new insane sandwich from America and the world's history. I'm going to follow. Because some of the ones he was saying were insane sounding. No, like aliens had come down to earth and were just putting random things together. Yeah, he's got a tuna and peanut butter one that he did.

I mean, all these weird... These were written in recipe books. This is like, here's a recipe book of a yummy sandwich to feed your family. Even peanut butter and tomato? Like, what? That sounds horrible. Okay, also, a lot happened while we were listening.

Yeah, I want to talk about that, because I was... Is there a sandwich on me right now? Yeah, there is a sandwich on you. Where? Help, where? So Rob got us a breakfast sandwich to eat. And as I played that documentary, as you were listening at home or in the car, wherever you are, Monica was also listening. You were eating a sandwich at the same time.

Quite early on, you sort of plopped quite a lot of it on yourself. Sort of fell apart all over you. That was very funny because it took you quite a while to clean up. Then eventually they were cleaned up and you were left with like a handful of rubbish, just like sandwich and bits of tissue and everything. And the bin, which is approximately half a foot from you, you went to toss it in. Missed. You then had to lean down to get the rubbish, but the microphone was in the way and you sort of got tangled in the mic as you leaned. It was the most entertaining thing i've seen in a long time oh my god you're not supposed to

look at me and i'll just occasionally look up and there'd be a new problem you'd found yourself in was really good that was like a comedy routine so thanks for that i wonder how long i had spilled you know it takes some minutes before I realize that I have spilled. And instead of you saying, oh, Monica, you spilled, you just noticed it on my sweater until I noticed it. It was good. Thanks for that entertainment. You're clean now. You've done well.

I'm fine now. Okay, but sandwiches are messy often. No, they are messy, and that's why I was saying the overloaded nature of them can be incredibly stressful, because for me, the bread is always about giving you something to grab onto and like a little enclosure for the sandwich. And when there's too much filling and the bread's gone, you're just left with chaos. That's interesting. I'm always pro more filling than less filling okay i think the bread is just the vessel to like hold it all together and the way you can but i don't if it's too bready i'm not interested i got injured on a sandwich very early on in my american journey where i didn't know there

was a toothpick in the middle and i bit in and it punctured my gum down the bottom and I screamed. And then I realized in America you put a big spear through some of your sandwiches. Yeah, and you were cut's farrier. I absolutely was. It was so stressful. Oh my God. When you're having to hold sandwiches together, clubs are fine. That's its own thing.

I've had sandwiches in America that aren't a club and yet they still require A device to be shoved through the middle of it To hold it together That's a step too far Okay well watch your words Because the chicken sandwich at Houston's Is the best sandwich on earth And it comes with a skewer? Yeah

It's very big I'll try it and I feel I should try these things before I think about it too much. Wait, and I want to bring up one other thing. This is a shout out. There's a Instagram called celebrities on sandwiches and it's paintings. It's a person who draws a celebrity sitting on a sandwich and you can buy these prints. They're amazing. I love this. She finds out what people's favorite sandwiches are. Kristen has one. Dax has one.

I have a print of Donald Glover on a sandwich in my kitchen. They're amazing. Really good. Are they painted in like a really majestic kind of way or a very realistic kind of way? It's more realistic, but it's a little bit like cartoonish i love this nice colored pencil okay okay colored pencil it's they're great hold on they're called celebs on sandwiches adding that to the list if you paid attention to my 2021 gift guide these were also on there they're great gift but oh look there's a new one. Aubrey Plaza from White Lotus. What's she on?

She's on a lettuce tomato. Is it a BLT? Caprese sandwich. Caprese on focaccia. Yum. Okay, following that. Oh, but look, Jennifer Coolidge is on a hot dog. So she

believes hot dogs are sandwiches. I did get one more expert opinion Okay So Roy Choi Says a hot dog is not a sandwich I don't really care that intellectuals say it technically is the same Meat between bread A hot dog is not confined by intellectual definition

It's its own thing like Prince I love that And I agree I really like the people we have weighing in on this it's great and it also shows how much thought everyone has already given to this topic they both immediately said oh this this age old question see hi you're on air i wanted this is ridiculous what well as the crow flies i'm what 75 feet from you like literally i'm in my bedroom i'm looking out the window at the window where you're presumably calling me from.

Yeah. But I just wanted to get your expert opinion, armchair expert opinion, on whether or not a hot dog is a sandwich. Definitely not, no. Right. Ridiculous question. I know, but like by technical standards. Is a Popsicle a sandwich? Oh my God, no.

Don't, don't, no, don't do that. Don't do that, okay, okay. Because technically it's food and bread. And that technically checks off the sandwich. No, no, no, no. So is a croissant then. So is a pastry. So is a pot pie. A pot pie is a sandwich. No, no, no, no. So is a croissant then. So is a pastry. So is a pot pie.

A pot pie is a sandwich? No. No, a pot pie is not. It's between two slices of bread. Exactly. Right. That's what David, we decided it was between two slices.

We decided that. But the technical definition says it could be one. Anyway, we're just getting people's opinions. We got Michael Voltaggio's, Roy Choi's, and now yours. I have no business in that grouping at all. You're supposed to ask me about cars. I know. But back up.

What you said was, well, it's food between bread. There's so many breaded items. Exactly. My Bisquick meat and cheese casserole is not a sandwich. No, no, no. I know, Dak. That's not in between slices. It is.

It is? No, no. It's not slices. Right. But nor is a hot dog. Well, this says an item of food consisting of two pieces of bread with meat, cheese, or other filling between them. And I guess the hot dog is technically one piece. But you could also have— You don't even need to say technically.

Like, technically is something you say when it seems abstract. It's clearly a single piece of bread. But listen, listen, if you had a piece of bread, like an actual piece of bread, and you put peanut butter and jelly on it and you folded it, that's still a sandwich. Or you cut it in half. It is, but if you don't fold it, it's toast. Oh. Wow.

Is it? Yeah, you're right. Yeah, it's a piece of toast. Okay, but the hot dog is folded bread. It is not. It is a roll that you slice in the middle to make a little... I knew you'd have strong opinions. Well, I don't know that you could ask anyone else that has commissioned a six byby-eight-foot painting of a hot dog in a green field, which you know I have. My affection and affinity for the hot dog is really legendary.

Oh, actually, so you're saying this as a pro hot dog. Consumer. A pro consumer of hot dogs, not a manufacturer. Right. Engineer. But I would say it's pro-sandwich to not include the hot dog, but you're actually saying it's pro-hot dog to not include it in the sandwich category. Exactly. It's incredibly disrespectful to the hot dog to lump it in with a fucking bologna sandwich.

Who else should we ask? If you don't think that's enough, two world class chefs and then a hot dog enthusiast. Alright, I guess that's fine. Alright, well wave to us I guess through the window.

The only thing more sillier could be that I would be in the gym in Black Mole Paradise. We could just shout down to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, good luck with your verdict. I guess that at the end of this episode, you'll declare.

Sure, but we all are in agreement, but we're just toying with the details, you know? Oh, playing devil's advocate. Yeah. Debbie's Abby? I like that. I like when you explore that. You just really have to pull things apart, like a hot dog bread. Right, right, right, right. All right. Well, thank you,

Dex. All right, love you guys. Bye. Love you, bye. Bye. As you were talking to Dex, I just went through the transcript of my interview with Barry from Sandwiches of History. And he had this to say about hot dog v sandwich. He said, it comes down to intent. Two pieces of bread with something in between.

Now, I know a hot dog's hinged, but you notice that the hinge is not the same width as the two pieces of bread. So the intent is that it's a sandwich. It just happens to be a hinge. Wait, he thinks it is a sandwich? It's kind of like if you go to Jersey Mike's or you go to Subway or whatever. The sandwich is a hinge. That's kind of true about Subway. It's a sandwich. I think a hot dog is a sandwich. That's what

I'm going to say. You just turned. I've turned. I've thought about it. I've digested the information. And that's just personally. I've turned. I've thought about it. I've digested the information. And that's just personally how I spiritually feel about it. It's my spiritual belief. Oh, wow. Okay. I mean, I'm not going to cause like a fight over your spiritual beliefs.

But I totally disagree. I'm with Roy Choi and Michael Voltaggio. Look, I can sort of see why you would side with a couple of chefs and a hot dog enthusiast over me. I'm not offended. Look, one bit of trivia I just wanted to leave you with, which is unrelated to this. But another thing, I really like Sandwiches of History and Barry. Barry is the head of marketing for Boomerang. Do you know what Boomerang is?

The app thing? Yeah, on the email. So he works for Boomerang. In your email, I've got a thing, and you send an email, and then you realize you've done something hideously wrong. It hasn't sent it yet. It gives you like a 20-second delay, and it's just the best invention I've ever come across,

and I've saved myself so many times. Because you can check an email a million times, and it's perfect. Hit send, and the second you hit send, you'll see something wrong with it. Exactly. I mean, I think this is bad, because then you just could constantly, you could never send a with it. Exactly. I mean, I think this is bad because then you just could constantly, you could never send a thing. That's what I do. It takes about 20 times. That's why it takes so long to do anything.

Alright, just a little fun fact about Barry. This was fun. I said this documentary was going to get very narrow, but actually now I've sort of thought back at it. I think we covered every aspect to this sandwich. Not every. Possible. No. Throughout history. Why are you saying it?

Throughout America. This is a comprehensive take with every expert. You know, we had chefs come in. This was incredible. I think it's the best episode we've done. Oh my god, you need to chill. What awards can we submit it for? Such declarative sentences.

I love a sandwich. We didn't even talk about the po' boy or the Italian. So, no, we definitely did not cover it all, but we did a pretty good job. We did a pretty good job. Sandwiches. My verdict is they're delicious. Me too. Am I more American? Come on.

I ate a sandwich while doing a podcast about sandwiches, and I went to Philly and ate two big footlong cheesecakes, stuffed them in. You are. You are. You're a hot dog size more American. Thank you.