Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: Shoes Indoors

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

This week on Flightless Bird, David Farrier looks at why so many Americans don’t take their shoes off indoors. A poll by CBS last year found “the majority of Americans don't ask their guests to remove their shoes when they come to visit, and this is particularly true of older Americans.” David wants to find out why, so meets with etiquette coach Elaine Swann, founder of The Swann School of Protocol. The pair talk about the correct thing to do with your shoes, before moving their attention to road etiquette, airplane etiquette, and Zoom etiquette in the USA. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm David Ferrier and New Zealand are accidentally marooned in America and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now often on the show we tackle really big things that make America puzzling to me as an outsider. Tipping, flags, Thanksgiving, laundromats, school cafeterias and the ridiculously high level of water in the toilet bowl. But each day I'm faced with other smaller mysteries, things that are treated as normal in day to day life here when being anything but normal. Well I took my shoes off. Of course I took my shoes off. Yeah you do.

I've been going through old audio of this show and found a bit where me, Dax and Monica are talking at a thanksgiving party, we were recording episode 28, thanksgiving, and I just noticed that we were in somebody else's house and I was the only one who had taken my shoes off at the front door. That's something I've been thinking about a lot since I've been in America and I'm glad you raise it. I always take my shoes off indoors. I've noticed most people, like everyone here right now, is wearing shoes except me. Yes, a lot of houses prefer shoes off, so you're doing the right thing.

Once I saw Brea had her shoes on, I was like, let's party. Monica told me her take on taking shoes off at a dinner party. I don't. Dax agreed. If someone did that in my house, I'd be like, you're too comfy. It falls under the farting category. Like, I want someone to feel comfortable enough to fart around me. You included, David.

But there's no way we would not have to acknowledge it's more sanitary. Americans are too busy working. We don't have the time to take our shoes on and off. I feel alone in so many American houses because I look around and it's just me with my tootsies out. Everyone else is in shoes. It's backed up by a poll CBS did last year which found a majority of Americans don't ask their guests to remove their shoes when they come to visit and this is particularly true of older Americans. I look at TV shows and so often characters are all wearing their shoes inside.

What the hell is going on? So get ready to kneel down and learn how to tie and untie a shoelace because this is the Shoes and Doors episode. I'm a flightless bird, flightless bird, touchdown in America. I'm a flightless bird, touchdown in America. Alright, so I should note that we all have our shoes on right now. I've got Crocs, so they're semi out. Okay, but would you ever come into work and take your shoes off? Yes, I used to. So when I worked there, but that was unique to me.

So when I worked in a newsroom in New Zealand, I just hate having my shoes on. I just don't like the feeling of having my feet contained, but it wasn't a common thing. So in New Zealand, generally work, definitely shoes on, office, but any house in New Zealand, you would generally, I stopped being friends with someone just out of university because they came into my house with shoes on. And it was like the final straw of deciding that it wasn't a friendship I wanted to keep because they clump some dirt down the hallway.

That feels really aggressive. It was aggressive, but it was the end of a lot of things happening. But my point being, shoes and doors in New Zealand, it's not on. Okay. How do you feel? Because I know at Thanksgiving when we talked, and that was like over a year ago now, what are your thoughts about it as you stand now? Say someone visits your apartment.

What's happening? Okay. I am assuming they're going to have shoes on the whole time and I'm totally great with that. Yeah. And if they ask me, which often people will like, Oh, should I take my shoes off? I say, no, no, you're good. Right. But no one says, can I take my shoes off?

Do people ever take them off? Okay. The only time it would maybe happen and sometimes happens in the attic is if we're sitting for a long time and then we just throw our shoes off here. Like as we're sitting. Yeah. Exactly. While you're sitting, you kind of like just toss them off and then you get

comfy. And so sometimes that would happen at a dinner party or something. People would be eating and maybe take their shoes off at their seat. Yeah. But no one is coming in, dropping the shoes at the door. Are you ever concerned that if they've been tramping down the street and they might have picked something up on the bottom of the shoe, is that ever a concern? Or do you have a map that you can, people can?

I have a map. You got a map. It says in this house, we play Taylor's version. Oh, that's good. So people can wipe their dirt off, but also I'm kind of grossed out by their stinky foot in their stinky sock. Yeah, because that's the other issue. I guess the shoe comes off, you're dealing with potentially a sweaty sock.

Yes. Or if they take the sock off, you're dealing with just a foot. And then if people step on it on the foot and then they sue you. Yeah, there's that. There's a safety thing as well. Yeah. Maybe a little nail or a tack is full on your floor

and they might get something through there. Exactly. I think I'm more concerned about that. Like, oh no, what if they step on glass in my apartment? Have you ever in America gone to someone's house and they've gotten offended that you've left shoes on? Have you ever had an gone to someone's house and have gotten offended that you've left shoes on? Have you ever had an awkward moment or is this just your whole life?

Everyone in America is just wearing shoes indoors all the time and there's never any conflict. There is, but it's normally not conflict. It's just people in America, people know if they have a shoes off house, if they decide that, they know to tell you immediately. Yeah, we have a shoes off house. You do that they know to tell you immediately. Yeah, we have a shoes off house. You do?

Oh, OK, here we go. Yeah. OK, this is amazing. Is this because I hate to stereotype? Because Natalie's Asian? Yeah. No, my house growing up was also shoes off. It's definitely like New Zealand, Australia and generally a lot of Asian cultures, the shoes off.

Yeah. Why in your family? What was the reason? I think because my mom was like a neat freak, clean freak, germ freak. a lot of Asian countries. Asian countries, yeah. Why in your family? Why did you grow up? What was the reason? I think because my mom was like a neat freak, clean freak, germ freak. And how do you enforce it? Is it verbally or do you put signs around the house saying, cheeky shoes, make sure they're off? Sometimes a condensate just...

Because you forget? No. We've like put a shoe rack at the front door, so it's kind of a signal. And now ours is on inside. Who's not doing it, you or her? No, no, it's more like friends come over. And then I'm obligated, we'll have friends that will just come in with their shoes

and then I'll get the text. From Natalie? Yeah. You guys, oh my God. I support this. Absolutely not. If you're gonna be a shoes off household in America, you can't be passive aggressive. Natalie? Yeah. You guys, oh my god. I support this. Absolutely not. If you're going to be a shoes off household in America, you can't be passive aggressive.

You have to be able to say, hey guys, leave your shoes at the door. We normally do, but sometimes I won't. Sometimes if I'm not close enough with someone, I feel weird. And if you're with your years, having like 20 people come over, it's like a lot of shoes to police. And it's an uphill battle. Well then you just deal with it. It's an uphill battle, having to do it. Wow. Well, you could have a sign of shoes to police. And it's an uphill battle. It's an uphill battle having to do it.

Well, you could have a sign on the door, I guess. Yeah. Maybe that's what we need to do. Okay. So what about, and this is in your world, because I want to know the limits of this, because I've watched some American TV shows and this is what I was thinking about as well. I've seen shows where there'll be characters on a bed. Some of them, they've got the shoes on.

I'm not, that's disgusting. Okay. So the shoes come off. There's limits. Yes. Not on the bed. Okay. Carpet though.

Like do you have carpet in your apartment? No. Okay. What about the couch? Someone kicks their feet up on the couch. Okay. The couch is a little bit more of a gray area. Like to me, bed is a non-negotiable.

It's an ogre. Although I have seen Dax on his bed sometimes with his shoes on. Yeah, it's common, I think. He hates not wearing shoes. He's the opposite. He wants the tootsies wrapped. Always. He needs to be like ready to run out the door.

Yeah, OK, right. He's ready for action. Yes. And for me, absolutely not in bed, not on the couch either for me, but I've done it. I've done it on the couch. Yeah, in your own couch, I feel like you can stretch things.

I would never do it on someone else's couch. You would do it on someone else's couch. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, okay, yeah. But in my apartment, just me on an average day, Yeah, every day. around the house cooking. I'm probably wearing shoes most of the time. So you're leaping out of bed and the shoes are sort of putting the shoes on.

Right. When I wake up, no shoes until I get ready to leave. OK. And if it's rainy, are you taking them off as soon as you get in or are you just wiping them? Yeah, I am Rain boot off. You're not tramping your wet boots all over the house We're wearing high heels. Those are off immediately cuz they hurt. I found something out recently until about a year ago I was wearing a shoe size one too small for my feet and I got bunions I always thought that was normal but someone saw my feet and they were like, that's disgusting.

And then you moved up a size and it felt better? Yeah, and I always thought my whole life for sort of 40 years, I thought these are a bit tight, but I'd always know when I was a 12. But then I tried in a store, I tried a 13 just to see what happened. And it was great. And I was like, oh my God,

this feels like I'm floating on a cloud. And so that's been a new thing I've discovered recently. And I think maybe that's why I am so anti shoe because of kind of a lot of my life may be constrained because I'm too much of an idiot to think maybe I should try it. I think it's actually more your New Zealand tall poppy syndrome. You didn't want to be a person who had a size 13 because that's a big feels like you look at the 13 shoe and you're like, oh my God, like clompy, oh clompy over here. Well no, I mean, I think in America, we think a big shoe size is cool. That's a cool thing.

Yeah, right. It's like a whole patriarchy. Oh, it's like a penis-sized thing as well. It's all that thing. Yeah. I just see like a big ugly shoe. I'm like, this is ridiculous. I look like I'm clomping around the house. Huh. All right. Well, look, I made a little documentary about this topic. I'm like, this is ridiculous. I look like I'm clumping around the house. All right. Well, look, I made a little documentary about this topic. I got to admit it's stretched a bit thin. But look, we'll see how it goes.

Okay. Now, and I talked to someone in the show, the episode is kind of amazing. I really like her. Oh, fun. Okay. I knew I wasn't alone in my worry about what I was seeing unfold all around me. Like the saying goes, never don't judge a book by its cover. And I think I chose you as one of the candidates for the speed dating because I agree the point that never judge the book by its cover.

Nice. Love on the Spectrum is one of my favorite shows and while browsing the show's reddit page I found this, why do the Americans wear shoes inside the house? I saw Danny sitting on her bed with boots on. In all other countries I've been in everyone takes their shoes off before entering their home or somebody else's home. It's considered rude. They raised a good point. Americans appear not just to be wearing shoes inside the house, but they're wearing them on things like the bed. Maybe in the bed. Where did this chaos stop? Did it stop? I began to think about American etiquette and Audrey Hepburn and My Fair Lady.

You see this creature with her kerb stone English that'll keep her in the gutter till the end of her days? Yeah, what's that you say? In six months I'll make a duchess of this draggletail gutter snipe. Thinking of Eliza Doolittle, I knew who I needed to talk to to get to the bottom of this shoes and side situation. I needed a modern day Henry Higgins

because this was a question of etiquette. My name is Elaine Swan. I am a lifestyle and etiquette. My name is Elaine Swan I am a lifestyle and etiquette expert and I spend my time helping people to navigate a variety of social situations and I have a whole lot of fun doing it. I spent quite a bit of time googling American etiquette experts and was surprised to find there are quite a few here but I ended up settling on Elaine because I liked the name of her school the Swan School of Protocol. It sounded like it had authority that I could trust it. How did you get into that line of work? I

became an etiquette professional by being a student of etiquette. I started out as a young age at Charm School. My mom felt like that was something that was necessary for me to kind of really help increase my confidence. And it actually worked. And from there, I moved into the pageant industry. I was a flight attendant for 10 years at Continental Airlines and I took the International Etiquette and Protocol training. And so all of that culminated into me volunteering.

The volunteering opportunity turned into a one-time gig with a junior high school with kids. And after returning to that school multiple times and them paying me money, I recognize that this was number one, a great opportunity and a viable business. And more importantly, I really enjoyed seeing the transformation that the students made after going through the program and so now here I am later four books in I've authored four books and I have just celebrated my 20 year anniversary as an etiquette professional. 20 years is impressive and I knew I'd come to the right woman.

I also felt like I'd been transported back into another time with this talk of charm schools and etiquette professionals. It occurred to me I could probably do with some of her training. I use my phone at the table all the time and my friends accuse me of not listening to them properly. So here in America, one of the things that I notice is that folks have a tendency to say that etiquette is a lost art. And I think the thing that's been lost is the formal teaching of what we're supposed

to do when we interact with people. I think that's the part that's lost. But the desire that people have to not offend others still remains the same. I mean, everywhere we go, whether we're in the parking lot at the grocery store or we're online or we're in the workplace, people still want to be respect and they still feel that we should conduct ourselves in a manner that is considerate towards others. And those are the core values that have not gone anywhere. I remembered my mission for this episode,

find out where shoes inside the house fitted into America's core values. Well, statistically speaking, what studies have shown is that two out of three Americans do not wear shoes in the house at all. That's for certain. She's right. I've looked at some recent surveys and in general 63% of American households take their shoes off

inside that's good but it also means that 37% of Americans think it's okay to wear shoes indoors why? From what I can tell it's a bit to do with what Dax said convenience and saving time. Americans are too busy working, we don't have the time to take our shoes on and off. Other Americans talk of needing the support shoes offer, which I think is kind of bullshit, while others argue that wearing shoes inside protects their feet from getting dirty. I can understand this if you're visiting your friend who keeps 20 cats, but in general, I call bullshit. You're

more likely to get filth on someone's floor from your shoes than your feet getting dirty from a floor. Where things get truly alarming is when it comes to what Americans do in other people's houses, like when me, Rob, Dax and Monica went to that Thanksgiving dinner. for whatever reason Americans they just let you just come on up in the house with your shoes on and bring whatever's on the outside to the inside. I don't know why that is." And that's what alarms me, the stuff that's on the bottom of a shoe. I don't care how disgusting your feet are, I feel I'd rather have a disgusting foot than a disgusting shoe tramping all around my house. I'm watching an episode of Inside Edition who recently looked at what you find on the bottom of a shoe. Disgusting. It's understandable. Streets and sidewalks are covered in filth.

Dog poop. But we wondered how much of that germy stuff could you really be tracking into your home and could it make you sick? The reporter did a bunch of testing and found that yes, shoes are disgusting. It's something that alarms etiquette expert Elaine Swan as well. The etiquette part of it is how to tell folks to take those shoes off when they enter your home. So yes, we're definitely leaving them on but we should be asking people to take them off and you can do so nicely. Because I feel as a New Zealander we are so worried about offending other people.

I find it incredibly difficult to bring something up like that. So I'd probably benefit from the school myself to be honest. Absolutely. So here's how you do it. All right, if someone arrives to your home and you are a shoes off person, you can say this, welcome. We're so glad you're here. We are a shoes off person. You can say this, welcome. We're so glad you're here. We are a shoes off household. So we've got this little section right here for you to take your shoes off. And in this lovely basket are some socks. If you want to cover your feet with them and you know,

just put them on and enjoy yourself. Boom. That's it. So two things. Number one, have a place for people to put their shoes, stop them at the door, let them know this is what we do. They put their shoes there. The second thing, which is so great, and it's such a great host move, or hostess move, if you will, is to have a basket of socks or foot covering or what have you for folks when they come over.

And it doesn't cost a lot. I mean, you can go to the dollar store, pick up a few socks, throw them in a basket, and it can be a great party gift for your guest. So you're with me on this, you know shoes should come off at the door right? That seems sensible. I believe shoes should certainly come off at the door. For the first time in a long time, I feel sane, an American agreeing with me. Still, Elaine says there are some exceptions to taking your shoes off indoors, but they're

rare occasions and not an excuse to wear your filthy shoes inside all the time. Now you will find there are some instances where people would prefer to leave their shoes on and that's when we're looking at maybe it's part of your ensemble. So you've invited folks over for a cocktail party, or maybe there's some sort of sports gathering and you've got the whole outfit on with the matching jersey and the matching sneakers or what have you, and people are coming through. But if someone's coming over and they're just hanging out, they're lounging around, most certainly invite your guests to take their shoes off.

Interesting take. Now, Monica, you were strongly disagreeing with some of these. It's a different take on shoes. Well, one, I'm really glad she reminded me about fashion. How could I have forgotten? That's a huge piece of this. Yeah. If you turn up in an outfit.

Yes. And I have to take my shoes off often. The shoe is a huge part of the outfit. It's part of things. So the whole outfit falls apart as the shoes come off. Exactly. It makes sense. Also, if I go to someone's house,

Rob, this is for you. If I go to your house and you say, hey, you know, we're shoes off house, feel free to put them there. And if you want a sock, I'll throw up on your floor and then stepping it in my shoes and walk all over your house. Fuck that, if anyone is making me wear their sock, ew!

I think in this case, they're buying separate socks. Natalie's mom has asked for socks from Natalie. I know, from your mom to your daughter, maybe. But if I'm just at someone's house and if you came to my house, say Monica, come over, come over tonight. Six o'clock. Meet my ghost. Yeah, meet the ghost at dinner and stuff. And you get to the door and there is a beautiful pair.

I say this is a shoes off apartment. If you look down there in that bin, there are some brand new socks that I've bought. They've got little tag on. Yeah, the little tag on. Yeah. Yeah. The little plastic thing on and then can you please take those filthy? You've walked here from your house. I had, yeah.

There's some dog shit on your shoes, a small bit of hair. And I don't want to look at your feet. But I don't want to look at your feet and I want your feet to be in a sock. A tampon? Ew. All sorts of stuff out there. This is sick. It's all sorts of things.

Okay. Would you do that? Yes. Yeah. New sock. That is a ridiculous thing. And then what I do, and then when you leave, you take the socks off. Yeah.

And then when you come back to the house, you can, those can always be your socks to wear at my house. No, you have another new pair. Oh, another fresh pair. Oh God, it's going to get expensive. If you're having a big cocktail party and you're, you have to buy 30 pairs of socks, absolutely not. Some people will be wearing their own socks and some people can go barefoot if they want. Some people could go barefoot.

I don't know if you do laundry the same way I do laundry and maybe you're leaving some mold on the sock and you're not letting it dry, not drying it all the way. You don't trust the washing of the sock. I do remember now when at one time I went to buy a pair of shoes, size 12, the wrong size. I went in in jandals, which is the New Zealand word for flip flops. And so they had a big thing of socks that I could put on to try the shoes. And that felt bad.

I think they were socks other people had maybe used before and I wasn't happy about that. How do you feel about what's happening right now? Okay, so interesting. Yeah, you are cross-legged and one of your shoes is on the sofa. The chair. Yeah. The chair. Yeah, but with a fabric chair. Chair. What was that? Cha.

A fabric cha. That's really good. No, see, this is, okay, this is the root of the problem. But I think I do this sometimes. I didn't notice. It's different in a workspace though. I don't think it's weird that we wear shoes in here. But do you think it's weird that it's on the fabric chair though? Let me see the bottom of that little foot.

Let me see it. They're not too bad. They're not too bad. They're not too bad. Well, have you been anywhere that, have you seen when someone will have like slip covers for your shoes? So if you want to keep your shoes on yeah, pop them over they've got They've got little it's a good plastic bag. That's it and a rubber band those they make yeah That's what I'm doing like a hair net for shoes

Where you turn up I'm gonna I'm gonna when you turn I'm going to have a hazmat suit that you put on. Discover the whole body. I don't want any part of you. I know you don't even want, don't invite me. You don't want me there. I don't want a bit of hair falling off your head. Oh, my hair. I shed like crazy.

If I come over, my hair will be in your apartment for sure. Yeah, right. This is what I would normally do. I've now taken my shoes off so that you see you barely even notice. Monica's just taking the shoes off. These two shoes are now set there. You're comfortable doing this. Your feet are not sweaty or smelly.

They're great feet. So what's this is how it should be. I feel comfortable taking my shoes off here in this attic and being in socks on the chair. But you know what I definitely don't want to do? I would not want to walk right now in my socks to the bathroom. You know the worst thing I've ever seen in my life? What?

The flights to New Zealand. It's a 12 hour flight. Bathrooms get pretty nasty. I've seen some people walk into the bathroom in socks. And that is why. And that is that's the worst case case example that's leaning into your argument. I think socks are so much more disgusting than shoes. Really?

Well, public places. Yeah, you don't wear socks on the ground. Yeah, that was one of the worst things we've ever seen. But your home is not a public place. That's true. Interesting though, sort of its perspective of cleanliness of the house, your own foot. Yeah. It's like, it's like a balancing act between those two things.

I'm being selfish. Like I'm protecting my foot. Yeah. Instead of protecting your apartment. Yeah. In my own apartment though, I don't care if people wear shoes. Yeah, completely. It is the other feet.

You know, the feet are an interesting thing. I just think the other day, and this is an argument that always goes on in the internet, do you clean your legs and your feet? Because there's an argument that because you're soaping up the rest of you as you wash it off, the soap just goes over your legs and your feet. So the feet often get ignored. I feel like I haven't cleaned my feet in years. Really?

Like really scrubbed them. They just self-clean. So then you're walking in places in a yucky foot. Yeah. So it is getting dirty. Just your regular foot is getting stuff dirty. You're probably right actually. Stay tuned for more flightless bird.

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I couldn't just talk to them about this. I thought I'd get some other etiquette things out of the way. I like this. I want to learn. So I dive deeper. I thought it would be ridiculous to have this etiquette coach in front of me and not address a few other issues I've been rubbing up against here in America. Elaine Swan tells me she works with a whole range of Americans, young and old, from a variety of backgrounds.

I mean kids can really be rubble rousers at home, but parents really want them to show up at their best when they step outside that door. And so when we're looking at children and teens, we're definitely focusing on helping them to navigate social situations, assisting them by giving them the tools that they need to communicate effectively so that they can navigate throughout the world. Now when we get into the college age and young adults, now we're starting to look at serving these folks in an area that allows them to have those skills as they're entering into the workplace. Your parents are no longer there to talk for you.

They're not going to help you along the way. And so young adults, they have to be able to communicate effectively to share whatever it is, whether it's a like a dislike, or if they would need to communicate something that's pleasant or not so pleasant, they need to know how to do this. She also works with a lot of adults. And something she's worried about in America is the way Americans have learned to do zoom calls since the pandemic. One of the things that I see nowadays that tends to be a huge mistake that people are making is their video conferencing. We were thrown into this whole video conferencing era and not necessarily having any rule book

or what have you, which of course I'm working on that. So we've got this rule book that we're starting to develop now because people are making mistakes. They're thinking that just because we are not in person, that somehow we don't necessarily have to show up at our best. And so you see people doing kind of the high low where they're wearing whatever

they think is okay on top and sometimes nothing at all at the bottom. In addition to that, we're eating, we're drinking, we're doing different things. We're doing things online that we wouldn't necessarily do in person. And I think that's a big mistake that people make. I mean, just think about it. You wouldn't be in a business meeting and just all of a sudden out of nowhere I admit I've completely let etiquette out the window on Zoom calls. I hate Zoom calls. I find it really hard to sit still long enough to record this podcast, let alone sit staring at a screen for an hour or more. I walk

on zooms, I eat on zooms, I'm a disaster on zooms and Elaine Swan would not be happy. Next I turn to something we discussed in episode 16 of flightless bird, tipping. Here in 2024 I wonder what the basics are and what you give and how you decide. Turns out it's not as simple as 20% for everything. Tipping is not something that simple that says that you would tip 20% across the board. It certainly can vary.

It varies from industry to industry, and it also varies depending on the service you receive as well. Now the word TIPS comes from the acronym to improve prompt service, and there's a whole history behind that. But when you look at that process, or that thought process behind it,

to improve prompt service, you tip based upon the service you receive. Now, here in America, you are always expected to tip at restaurants. And the reason being is because here in America, we do not unfortunately pay our servers a living wage. They receive their wage based upon the tip. And so you should always tip.

However, there are some instances where your tip could reflect the service. So you never want to go to a restaurant and not tip a server at all because that really would kind of equal out to you not paying them for them providing the service for you even if it was horrible. Now you can lower that tip based upon the service but I always say to make sure that you try to correct the problem first. Talk with the server, talk with the manager, see if there's something that can be done, and do not adjust that tip if the bad service

had nothing to do with the server. So if the kitchen didn't prepare your food properly or maybe it took too long to come out, That does not have anything to do with the server. Now, if the server came and they slammed their food down on the table, or they ignored you, or they spoke to you very rudely, and you think, I didn't receive the level of service that I would expect,

let me address the server first. Let me talk to the manager so that this way, if you do decide to go a little bit lower on that tip, the server understands that you weren't just a little bit lower on that tip, the server understands that you weren't just a jerk and stiffed them. Here's the thing. I would say to do not go any lower than 10% if you receive bad service at a restaurant. That would be your absolute lowest.

So 10% is the lowest, 15% is your average average tip and 20% and above says that you received superior service. With that settled the 10% 15% 20% spectrum I turned to planes because I noticed something when I went back to New Zealand last time usually I fly Air New Zealand but Delta was doing a special price way cheaper so I flew Delta and I noticed there was just objectively way less room on a Delta seat than an Air New Zealand seat and in general American planes just seem to have a bit less room for your body they tend to stack humans in as tightly as possible to make as

much profit as possible this leads to a problem on American planes, a question of elbow etiquette. The elbow space and wrist on planes tends to be a dilemma for a lot of folks. And I've got the answer. The person who is sitting in the middle seat, they should get both of the armrests that are in that row. Now, etiquette would dictate that you're not supposed to start a big fight on an airplane. So if you find that someone is just not being kind and just not wanting to share that space,

then this is where you can do one of two things. You can speak to the person directly and say, I'd like to be able to put my elbow here, please. I just want to stretch out a little bit. If they say, Oh my goodness, sure. Yes. Great. Then enjoy your flight. If not, then you have to ask yourself, you know what, do I want to fight with this crazy person, the rest of my flight or not? Keep in mind the person next to the window, they have an armrest on their side and the window and the person on the aisle, they have an armrest on their side and the window. And the person on the aisle, they have an armrest on their side and the luxury of the

aisle. So the person in the middle usually doesn't have as much space. I certainly have seen people jockey back and forth for that space, but yes, indeed, the person in the middle seat should get both of the armrests. No doubt with this question of transport in the sky, I had one final question, a question about transport on the ground. I've noticed consistently since driving in America

that whenever I let another car in front of me, you never get a little wave or a thumbs up. I would say if you happen to let someone in and they go on about their way, it is certainly polite for them to give a wave, give a nod, give something to say, thank you. I wouldn't say that folks who are not doing that means that it's not an American thing.

I just think you must be in a rude city where people don't care. And they're so busy with whatever is happening in their lives. If you go through different cities here in America, you'll find folks who will give you a nice wave, they'll nod their head, something to that effect, but you might be in an area where folks just don't care. I realized that perhaps this etiquette issue was an LA issue, not an American issue.

Next time I'm driving in a different state, in Florida or Texas or maybe North Carolina, I'll check to see if I get a wave or not. I've learned a lot from Elaine in this episode but the main thing I've learned is that I'm right for once. Just this once an American has fully a hundred percent agreed with me. So you're with me on this you know shoes should come off at the door right that seems sensible. I believe shoes should certainly come off at the door. Yes Elaine Swan legend legend. How many people did you interview before you got Elaine to agree with you?

She was so down swanschool.com. She was cool. She thought it all 20 years in the biz four books under about. She's the expert. She's off. Aye, aye, aye. I mean, okay. What do you think about the plane situation? I agree with that. Middle aisle. You should get both spaces. Fully agree. If you're in the middle, you're in the shittiest seat on the plane. Horrific. You get both. Yeah. But what about when it's two?

Two what? Two seats next to each other. It's not, it's two? Two what? Two seats next to each other. It's not, there's not a three seat, it's a two. Right. That's most common. I think it comes down to if whoever puts it first. Yeah, there's that. There's that because some people do.

I know. And I'm always the one that I always get defeated in the elbow thing. I just don't push back enough. I think it should go on size. So if someone's physically bigger and they need more, like, that is so unfair. No, there's someone's like, I just, yeah, you're big. No, no, no. Just because I'm big. But if like, if you're a bit like, cause you're small, you take up their space. So you're sitting on that. It's like you're at Disneyland. You've got all this room you're sitting on that. It's like you're at Disneyland.

You've got all this room around you sitting in that little seat. You guys have no idea what it's like to be small. And also people being small has nothing to do with having a rest for your arm. Yeah. They're not related at all. You know, this is fair. So how do you decide it when you're on a plane? How do you weigh it up?

I also just defer. I kind of let the other person have it and I just crunch if I hopefully I'm on a window And I just you're a nice person. You should like get yeah, you just do that thing But you can alternate during the flight as well like Jossel like they might leave to the go to the bathroom And that's all and then boom you've got it and like screw them and they come back with their urine riddled socks. That is actually really true. That's a good time to sort of like establish a new dominance. Yeah. Plane etiquette, I mean, it's a whole thing.

What about talking to people on planes, talking to your neighbor? I have a policy on a plane where I will say a polite hello so they know I'm not full of hatred for them or something. So I'll say hello and then I, nothing, headphones, and I make it clear I do not want to be talking during that flight. Headphones are a game changer for airplane etiquette, because it tells the person everything. As soon as the headphones are in, I'm done talking to you, I'm never talking to you again for the rest of my life.

Because planes for me, they're like a holiday away from everyone. And I love having that space and having a neighbor that's just going to start chatting at random times. Maybe I'm being rude, but it's not for me. I just want to have my own space. It's not for me either. What about now? Okay. So this is an interesting thing. Apartment buildings. I think I saw a TikTok about this. What's your policy with neighbors? You know how you're always bumping into your neighbors and there's a general feeling of just like, oh, I just want to get on with my day and not stop and chat. What's the neighbor situation? I think me

and you are unfortunately on the exact same page here. Similar with this right? Yeah, a bit similar to the plane. I don't want to talk to anyone. I really don't. I wish my apartment was a home where I didn't have to see other people. That's what it is, right? That's the difference. Because you go to a house, no one's talking to you. You have maybe one neighbor that might yell across the fence. But apartments, because sometimes I feel like I emerge from my apartment like a little goblin

to maybe like go and do the washing or do something. And it's like a gauntlet. And I just know the feeling I get sometimes. I've got one neighbor that's really kind and he listens to this podcast. So I'm not talking about him. We like you. Like some people you see and you're just like, I don't want to talk, leave me alone. But there's no way you're crossing them in the hallway. And it's this thing. No, there are ways you just with like a small wave, but you tell people whether or not you're open for conversation. You sort of use it in your body language.

You don't have to glare. Look, I think I've talked about this maybe on Synced, but there is a person in my life who used to be in my life on a weekly basis. And then many years have gone by, right? And now he lives in my neighborhood. Ah, right. And he walks a ton and I walk a ton. And so I see him all the time.

And the first time we stopped, we had a whole conversation. Stop and chat. Yes. Catch up. Nice to see you. Stop and chat. Yes. Catch up. Nice to see you. Big catch up. Great. Oh yeah, great to see you.

Great to see you. Then the next time, I think both of us internally thought, we don't need to do that again, but also what do we do? Because we know each other. And so I think we just, hey, how are, like, it was a little bit quicker of a conversation. And you're probably both going through a similar internal process, right? 100%. Yes.

And now when I see him, I just put my hand up as a little wave. That's it. We're on the same page. You tell people with your eyes and your body language, you invite that or you don't. I had a similar but worse version of that at an airport line where I bumped into someone lining up to check bags and I hadn't seen them in a long time. Had a great stop and chat, but then because of the way the line went around. Oh no, you can't see!

Two minutes later, for about, I don't know, like 10 iterations of the line, and it was like being trapped in the inner circle of hell. Oh my god. It was a horrific time. I was getting sweats. It was like, it got so bad. And it was just socially horrific. Well, did you just put headphones in?

Again, if you always have headphones on you, you're fine. Yeah. Any situation, the headphones save you. That's the other thing with the walks. Normally I have headphones in, so it's just easy. The whole Apple vision thing will be even better for that, won't it? Just like slap a helmet on your head. Just like I'm not even seeing you.

Oh my God. Yeah. Attic gets a real question. And I do think it is so different in different countries. The driving is for sure regional. Yeah. No, and that is very LA. Yeah.

It's just, and usually I get, I always leading people in and when I don't get a little wave, I'm like my internal is like, fuck you. I know you have rage in the car. I do have people in and when I don't get a little wave, I'm like my internals like, fuck you. I'm always my way. You have rage in the car. I do have rage in the car. One other thing just because it's a variety of topics that I like sort of internet etiquette Hillsong church has been a bunch of documentaries about it.

Not a great church. Their old leader, Brian Houston left for a variety of reasons, but he did a great tweet last night. Okay. This mildly ties into the whole etiquette issue. So at 1141 p.m. Brian Houston tweeted ladies and girls kissing. So clearly what he had done is he had gone to search in Google for ladies and girls kissing but he had accidentally tweeted it. What? No. Are you sure? No, no. I saw it all unfold. So 15

minutes later, no, he deletes the tweet and he tweets, I think my Twitter may have been hacked. Which is so good because, A, if you were hacked, the hacker isn't going to tweet ladies and girls kissing. It's also clearly just so funny on so many levels. And also if you're hacked, you don't get your account back 15 minutes later. Right, right, right. It's just everything about it's heaven. Oh. But the etiquette, I was just thinking it's really a stretch, but not just the etiquette of tweeting, accidentally like tweeting, but who does that? It occasionally will happen

with someone, they'll tweet something just amazing that is a Google search. A few politicians in New Zealand have famously done it. Really? Searching for themselves. I think he's actually part of the government now, Winston Peters. I think he just tweeted something like tweets about Winston Peters or something. Oh, that's funny. Okay. Well, what about texting etiquette?

Texting etiquette. That's an amazing thing. What I've done occasionally with texts is I have replied to the wrong person in another conversation. That's the worst. And there's a few times I've done that and I've been like, okay, I've just sent this person this image that makes no sense. No, a nude. No, just like, no, like a screenshot or something.

It makes no sense. You've clearly made a mistake, but I try and think it really quickly of a text to send them that explains why I sent them this completely off kilter image. You're trying to fake it? I fake it. I fake it every time. Wait, but so you're saying, oh, you're saying you actually send it on purpose?

No, I'll accidentally send something to someone. And instead of saying, oh, I'm sorry, that was meant for someone else. I'll come up with an elaborate explanation. Wait, why would you do that? It'd be like Brian Husson going, I got hacked. I'll do it. Cause I get embarrassed that I'll do it.

Cause I get embarrassed that I've done it and I don't want them to feel like I wasn't texting them. Oh, that's so weird, David. And so I'll come up with a thing of why I sent them that thing. And it will be quite a convoluted story. It's much weirder for me if you send me like, I don't know, there's a random picture of a bird poo or something. And then a short essay of why I send it to you afterwards.

Yeah, I'm gonna be so much more weirded out. I haven't done it to you. I haven't accidentally texted you yet. Yeah, I don't remember. I don't remember having experience. What are yours you wouldn't know because my explanation is so smooth. So good.

But I think I would feel much better if you were like, oops, wasn't for you. Because then I'd be like, oh, he's into like another weird conversation with somebody. Yeah, and that's what it often is. As opposed to your brain is wanting to send me that. Yeah. No, it's, yes. I've pretty sure. Probably think about that. Yeah. It is tied in with my not wanting to. What is that look like you messed up? Yeah, kind of. But then you look weirder.

Well, I think it's a technology thing maybe with you too, where you want to be good at technology or yeah. And I don't really see this like a nipped bumbling idiot on a phone. Well, I think it's a technology thing maybe with you too, where you want to be good at technology or... Yeah, and I don't know, you seem to be this like, inept bumbling idiot on a phone, which I often am. Me too. I mean, we're over 30. We're gonna be bumbling a little bit. We're gonna be bumbling now.

That's part of it. Oh man. But okay, more, because I don't know that what you're talking about is etiquette. I've gone off on a different tangent. Just my own personal weird problems. Etiquette is more like, what are the rules? What are the rules for if someone texts you, how long can you go without texting back? Like, what's the rule for that?

A nightmare I've had a few times is that I've had read receipts on, not knowing. So I found out after about five years that I had read receipts with someone and they told me, my perception of the entire last five years changed because I'm like, fuck, all those times I've like waited. That's bad. I haven't seen it, I've seen it, I've seen it. They've seen it. And I've just left it.

I think if you're a nice, good person in this world and you are texting with someone and they have read receipts on, it is your obligation as a good person to tell them, hey, just so you know, and I'm sure you're doing this on purpose, but just in case you aren't, you have red receipts on. Yeah. Yeah. You have to tell them. Yeah. I mean, my friend told me after five years,

which I would argue was too long. That's not a good friend. No, I agree. You do have to tell them. I think you should reply with me. I'm a quick texter, but generally within two hours. I will text back. I don't want to like leave that hanging What if it's something that doesn't need a reply? Being told the thumbs up is sarcastic recently Thumbs up and I'm like no, that's just

They wanted a love heart was giving them thumbs up. And I'm like, no, that's just, I'm just like, yeah. They thought you were being mean. They wanted a love heart instead of a thumbs up. Oh my God. This is so, this is really. Yeah. But I'm the type of person, I do not need a response. If I'm not asking for a response. Like I do not need that. In fact, I prefer not another chime or another something

for me to then have to look at. Leave it. Yeah. It can go on and on and on and on. Yeah. So my personal views, I think don't necessarily match because same with email. I am so uninterested and just banter or got it. Thanks. Like, no, we don't need to do that. I have enough emails. Yeah no fair. I think I'm the opposite. I always feel obliged to reply but that's more of an impulsive I need to like say like sign it off and deal with it but of course that just keeps it going on potentially for a very long time. Well I think most people are like you which is why I think I can look more callous. Yeah.

Really? I'm just trying to be efficient. I'm just like, yeah. Voice memos versus texts. You have them. Hate them, hate them, hate them. You don't like seeing 10, two minute voice memos. I get grossed out sometimes by them.

Yeah. I agree. I agree. It's a step too far and it's a rare occurrence. I've got some friends I do because it's kind of funny. We have done it. Yours don't gross me out. I usually do it where this is like something a bit funny to talk about or it's more amusing.

Or if there's something that you have to explain. Like that's fine. Sometimes I do it with Emma if I just like really have to explain something and I don't want it, whatever, too hard to text. Okay. Dating and voice memos? Oh no. What do you think about that?

It's too much. I know. You know, it's too much too soon. I agree. No, no, no. I mean, that's the thing, we're living in this time where communication, there's just too much of it on every fucking medium. There's every imaginable DM

on every service and there's emails and there's texts and there's voice memos and there's FaceTimes and now we've got vision, as they're in your fucking 3D in front of you. It's like, it's a big, you know? It's complex. It's complex. We could do a part two. But we've learned it's complex.

We've learned that shoes should come off indoors. Your shoes, Monica, you started this episode with your shoes on. They're now off. And how do those little tootsies feel? They, they don't feel good. I want to put my shoe on. Does it feel airy and light? No, they feel, look, I'm itching. You're itching and it's scratching.

Oh God. You want me to seal them back in those shoes again? Yeah. All right. If I come over, I will take my shoes off and I expect a brand new pair of socks. A brand new pair of socks. What size socks do you? Definitely if it's those extra small.

Extra small socks. I wear a five and a half shoe. That's a small foot. Okay. I'll get you a little pair of socks and one of those little fishnets as well in case you don't want to take them off so you can like be clomping around. It sounded like stockings or something. Like you wanted me to dress up like some sort of S&M or something.

It's like a garter for you. It's weird when you come over. It's like, well I went to David's house so I didn't like it. It was quite weird. I didn't like it. Like you wanted me to dress up like some sort of S&M or something. It's weird when you come over. It's like, well, I went to David's house, I didn't like it. It was quite weird. I didn't have a good time. I'm not going back.

He said the ghost wants me to wear these fishnets. Change into a skirt. Yeah, good. Oh boy, all right, that was fun. Oh, just really quickly, you mentioned, and I at charm school, which I didn't know about. So that's the thing you mentioned something else. I want you to do an episode on debutante balls. What the hell is a debutante ball?

Okay. A debutante ball, it often happens in the South, sometimes in the Midwest too. It's girls becoming women. So like they're at school or it's the end of school. Well, no, it's not related to school. It's completely separate from school. And I think they do like go to etiquette classes and it's kind of like their graduation from being I think a girl into a woman, but it's a whole ball.

Dancing and a dinner. Dancing, fancy dresses. And they're all the shoes are on. I mentioned. Yeah, the shoes are on. People who are debutantes, it's a vibe. It's a Southern vibe. I think Elizabeth of Elizabeth and Andy, she was a debutante or is a debutante.

I could go to one of these balls and kind of see what. I think you have to be invited. It's like a wedding. It's free. It's like a wedding. Young women. So maybe you shouldn't just show up. Yeah.

And that would be weird. Yeah. So I get invited by someone I could go along to the thing. I've been invited to two up. Yeah, that would be weird. Yes. But I get invited by someone I could go along to the thing. I've been invited to two weddings, I'll flight this bird, come along to see how an American wedding is. But the timing was way off. And also like I was like, I don't want, I don't know what this is. I don't really want to go to somewhere.

I don't know. I wonder what the difference is between American weddings. And I mean, obviously Indian weddings are very specific. Oh my God. I can't wait to do an Indian wedding. So, so specific. But I think American weddings would just be probably interesting, but maybe just like Indian weddings are very specific. Oh my God. I can't wait to do an Indian wedding. So, so specific. But I think American weddings would just be probably through, but maybe just like a bit bigger and maybe a bit more pomp and ceremony maybe.

Or, but I mean, they're probably the same. Compared to New Zealand, maybe. But again, New Zealand, it wants everything to be so small. I also, I didn't want to go to a wedding and be like the only one that like, I wouldn't know anyone there. Talk about etiquette. There's so much about etiquette. There's so much wedding etiquette.

Like you can't bring a plus one in unless you've been invited to bring a plus one. I can't deal with weddings. I do not like going to weddings. It's a whole. I love weddings. It's too much. It's too long. What about the romance?

No, I get very cynical. What about the love? I get very. You do? I don't like weddings. You get grumpy? I get very- What about the love? Cynical. I get very- You do? I don't like weddings. You get grumpy? I get grumpy. David.

Yeah, you're sitting next to people, there's a dancing at the end of the night, it slides. Weddings are another thing. We'll come back to that. They are, and I want you to do an episode on them because if, I think you might, if you get a little bit bit by the love bug, then you will become more American. I'll get more, yeah, that is a part of it, isn't it? Yeah. It's the whole Disney warmth. If you get a little bit bit by the love bug, then you will become more American. I'll get more. Yeah.

That is a part of it, isn't it? Yeah. It's the whole Disney warmth. It's beautiful. Okay. Let's wrap this up. Wait, did you have a manners class in grade school? No.

We had to do that where it was like- You also went to a debutante. No, it wasn't a debutante. Charms. It was third or fourth grade and you got paired up with someone opposite gender and had to like go to a dinner. No! Yeah. What?

What? They go to a dinner and they taught you how to cut with a fork and knife and pull the chair out and all the etiquette. And I got paired with a girl that had like a crush on me that I couldn't stand. Oh. And then a foreign exchange boy. We were a group of three for some reason. What a cute little group.

What a cute little dinner. All trying to figure each other out. Wait, who takes you guys to these dinners? This feels shady as hell. This was grade school. This was like third grade. You're out, you leave for school? The teacher takes you?

Yeah, the teacher. You go to another. It was like a field trip. Oh my god. Wasn't the other students just you three? This is me. It was all the teacher. It was like a field trip. Oh my god. Wasn't the other students just you three? It was all the class. I think we're learning maybe you got groomed. Maybe. Oh my god.

That's amazing. So that is like this whole etiquette. It's really built in. I mean, I was just amazed that like Elaine had the Swan school for 20 years, you know, for 20 years. It's incredible. People really, I mean, I wouldn't have minded how to learn about all the, where the forks, there's so many forks and knives.

Yeah, different. You don't know what's your, so what plates. She was great. Great laugh as well. All right. All right. We've all learned about etiquette. Congratulations.

We're all a bit more, slightly more American. We're more, we're more posh. We're more posh. Yeah. What was that word that you pronounced? I really... What did I say? Chao?

Chao. Okay, bye. Bye. you