Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: True Crime

Episode Date: April 2, 2024

In this week's Flightless Bird, David Farrier talks to Terra Newell, who you may well know from the Dirty John podcast. We look at what makes the True Crime genre such a big deal, and some of the ethical questions it raises. David also shares his favourite 10 True Crime bits of media with Monica and Rob - which are: Dear Zachary (2008): A filmmaker decides to memorialize a murdered friend when his friend's ex-girlfriend announces she is expecting his son. Blackfish (2013) / The Cove (2009): A documentary following the controversial captivity of killer whales, and its dangers for both humans and whales. The Jinx: The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst (2015): Filmmaker Andrew Jarecki examines the complicated life of reclusive real estate icon Robert Durst, the key suspect in a series of unsolved crimes. The Staircase (2004): The high-profile murder trial of American novelist Michael Peterson following the death of his wife Kathleen Peterson in 2001. Last Call (2023): As the AIDS crisis intensifies in the early 1990s, homophobia and hate crimes increase, and a serial killer preys on gay men in New York City by infiltrating the queer nightlife to identify his victims. 6 The Thin Blue Line - 1988 (Errol Morris): A film that successfully argued that a man was wrongly convicted for murder by a corrupt justice system in Dallas County, Texas. Paradise Lost (1996): A horrific triple child murder leads to an indictment and trial of three nonconformist boys based on questionable evidence. Capturing the Friedmans (2003): Documentary on the Friedmans, a seemingly typical, upper-middle-class Jewish family whose world is instantly transformed when the father and his youngest son are arrested and charged with shocking and horrible crimes. The Imposter (2012): A documentary centered on a young man in Spain who claims to a grieving Texas family that he is their 16-year-old son who has been missing for 3 years. In The Dark Season 2: The second season of In the Dark explored the legal odyssey surrounding Curtis Flowers, who was accused of shooting four people to death inside Tardy Furniture, a Winona, Mississippi store, in July 1996 Honorable mentions: A Very Fatal Murder, American Vandal Other OGs: Helter Skelter (1974), In Cold Blood (1966), Making a Murderer (2018), Serial (2014) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm David Farrier in New Zealand, accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now since I've been here, something quite weird's happened, and I'm not quite sure why. I've become much more aware of crime. Breaking news from Chinatown, the LAPD is investigating a shooting that happened outside the Melody Lounge on North Hill Street. Now I'm not more aware of crime because I'm witnessing crime firsthand, it's more because I'm being told about crime. I'm

not sure when it started, maybe when I started following local news stations on Instagram, or maybe it was when I installed Citizen on my phone, this app which blasts me with crime news updates in my neighborhood. Some updates are useful, other ones I'm not so sure, an axe wielding man a mile away, someone spotted naked and screaming a few streets over. This all led me to think about something America has really made its own, true crime. I'm not saying America invented the true crime genre, but thanks to podcasts like Serial and shows like Making a Murderer, it's pushed the genre into the stratosphere.

Are you kidding me? The disappearance of Teresa Halbach remains a mystery. Mr Avery's blood is found inside of Teresa Halbach's vehicle. Serial has been downloaded about 350 million times, a podcasting world record, and since Making a Murderer came out nearly a decade ago Netflix has invested heavily in the genre. In this episode I'm going to share the 10 true crime shows that have captivated my own brain and also talk to one of the real-life characters from a popular true crime podcast to see what they make of this sometimes ethically murky type of storytelling. So, get ready to decide if it's

entertainment, documentary or both, because this is the True Crime Episode. in America. I'm a flightless bird that's down in America. All right. How do we feel about True Crime? I'm excited for this. Do you watch and consume True Crime stuff? What's your relationship with it? Yeah. Serial is my favorite podcast of all time. Serial Season 1. It was such good storytelling. It's almost difficult to remember a time before Serial is my favorite podcast of all time, Serial Season One. It was such good storytelling. It's almost difficult to remember a time before Serial. I know.

Because it changed the kinds of things that people made in every genre, whether it's podcasts or documentary. I mean, there's always been docs and stuff, true crime docs, but I do feel like Serial catapulted it into a new level that rebirthed the genre into like a major major boom. There's these amazing books like in Cold Blood and Helter Skelter and you know so true

crime was always a thing but I feel serial made it hit the mainstream. It did. I guess it's like I feel like Netflix helped make documentaries a new thing. You're right. Kind of reinvented it and I feel like serial kind of changed the way people viewed how crime could be told specifically. And I think it was so good. My theory is it's all down to the cliffhanger.

Yeah. Like it nailed that type of storytelling. It really did. But I love so many of the docs, like The Jinx. I love The Jinx. Yeah, that's on my list later. Oh, it is? I know I kind of want love the Jinx. Yeah that's on my list. Oh it is? I know I kind

of want to guess your list. Yeah there'll definitely be some crossover between what we like but I'm also curious to hear later on like what stuff has inspired you and I can guarantee that people listening to this will be screaming as they listen because they didn't talk about that thing and I think that's the joy of it because there's so much stuff out there. This true crime that I haven't even gone near because it's just too vast and too huge. Did you deep dive into the gender element of it? No, we can talk about it. Okay.

I am about to interview someone who is a female who was in a true crime podcast. I went along to a true crime podcast meet and so I can talk a little bit to that because a meetup. Just fans and it's very female centric. It is I know. Yeah when we were shooting Dark Tourist we went on a Jeffrey Dahmer tour and it was pretty much all female. Really? And that really yeah that really surprised me because I knew that females leant more into that type of storytelling. But to turn up to a tour of Jeffrey Dahmer, I was the only guy there.

And I just thought that was really interesting. I think, I mean, do you have a theory on it? To be honest, no, I'm curious to hear your take because I haven't thought about it that much. And even in Dark Tourist, we didn't go that deep into what the appeal is with women. Look, if I'm going to top my head, my theory, women are the ones in society who have to like watch out for shit the most.

They're hyper aware of the stuff. They're curious about what the tells are. I can walk around LA at 11 p.m. on my own and feel okay. I wouldn't say the same for you because you're just more aware. Exactly, and we're more susceptible. I mean, Liz and I have had this debate on synced. I just stand by that.

It's the reality of the world. We are smaller for the most part, and that means we can be physically dominated for the most part. So yes, I agree with you. I think it's like a female spidey sense. Yeah, that you have to have. That you have to have.

And so it's like, let me learn everything I can so I can prevent it, so I can see it coming. So I can sort of live out the fear. Cause I do think whether we acknowledge it or not, women live with the level of fear and it could be subconscious, but watching it play out and knowing the end. You're right. It's like, we talked a bit out and knowing the end. You're right.

It's like, we talked a bit about this in the Halloween episode, we went to the haunted house, where a haunted house is a way of feeling this stuff and exploring those emotions. In a safe way. Without being in a safe way. And I also think maybe there's something in it as well. And I might be off here, but I feel like if you're a female,

just statistically, and you have something bad happen, you're going to be ignored generally. That historically. And I think true crime is a way where you can see people being empowered to actually tell a story and be heard and potentially change something as well. And I think it's really interesting as well that the narrator for serial was female as well. And we're so used to male voices. Sarah Koenig. Yeah. narrator for cereal was female as well. And we're so used to male voices.

Sarah Koenig. Yeah. Who's this? Who's this person? One of the most famous podcasters of all time. God, she's good. Yeah, I think the New York Times, I think, bought cereal. So it's all sitting over there.

Yeah, it's there, yeah. What do you think, and we can get into this a bit more later, but do you have any thoughts on the commodification of crumb? Cause that's the other side. It's like- Dirty side. We're sitting on our couch. of crime? Because that's the other side. It's like- Dirty side. We're sitting on our couch. I'm a guy, I'm eating popcorn.

You love popcorn. I love popcorn. It's like, what am I watching tonight? Am I watching Jurassic Park? Or am I gonna watch some grizzly murder? And it's doing the same thing, right? It's entertaining me. I know.

It's complex, especially because these are real people and often they're getting exploited in some way. It's hard to feel bad for the people who've committed the murders. I have a hard time having compassion there for their exploitation. But even the victims can get exploited in here. Completely. Yeah, that's the tricky level because it's about people being exploited and then at times I think you have people being exploited again when they're brought into this documentary world. I always think of Tiger King which was that, in my opinion, a pretty bad... it was just... You didn't like it.

I devoured it. Yeah, it was tasty. It was tasty. I don't think it did a lot of good for the world. It was kind of like... My take on that, I watched it in New Zealand. It was during our little lockdown as many of us were going through with COVID. And it just felt like here is a little window into a freak show. Let's look at these people that are struggling and having a terrible time and are kind of like a bit silly and let's laugh. That's sort of what it felt like to me. Wow, David, I'm shocked right now that that's your take because I tend to place you in a category of looking at the freaks and enjoying it.

Yeah. And part of it's anthropological for you, I think. I think you find human behavior very interesting. And especially when it's outside of a norm. And so I would have expected you to like, be really like that. It's a balance. I guess I dabble in true crime, right?

I made Tickles, which was a true crime where no one died, but same sort of genre. It's looking in a mystery, some shit's going on. You wrote a newsletter recently that was true crime-y. Oh yeah, about my, on Webram, about my friend who's flatmate killed a neighbor. Yeah, so that is in the true crime genre, right? And I love that stuff. I think how I would, on my moral high horse, differentiate myself from a Tiger King is I like to think that the stuff I dive into has something to say, which is debatable.

Right. Well, no, I think it does. I would just argue that Tiger King didn't really have a lot to say. Anything to say? To the point where I remember the final episode of Tiger King, they almost, in the last five minutes, sort of hemmed in this really heavy-handed voiceover

talking about the exploitation of animals, as if to say, okay, so what have we learned? Oh, I could see that. Keeping tight, like, it's probably bad keeping these animals. We shouldn't do this. Let's look at this as an example. Well, you're right. I definitely don't think the story was about animals. It was about human behavior and human manipulation. And that I find interesting. And it's happening all around us. We're getting manipulated all the time. I mean, in fact, again, if I'm gonna be compassionate,

I think people are desperate and will do whatever they can for power, money, approval, like anything. And so I do like seeing the dark. We're all dark. We all have shit. Completely. And watching it play out, you do learn about how we humans tick. The thing I was originally thinking about with Tiger King as an example of the ethical implications

of true crime, we watch Tiger King. We enjoy it. We judge people. We come away with our conclusions about whether you should keep tigers in captivity and how much you should do meth. And then, but if you look at the people in that documentary, they were people who had no profile. They were just in their world. They're suddenly in the biggest hit TV show. Right. And I was particularly interested in one of the characters who was the campaign

manager for Joe Exotic when he had his little political run, his name was Josh Dial and he's sort of a very sympathetic character in the doc. But I watched him. I followed all the Joe Exotic sort of characters on Facebook after the doc aired. And he is this guy who suddenly found fame. He's on Cameo, like a lot of the cast is on Cameo. And he's just cratered. He's on Facebook at the moment, basically every day wanting Venmo for petrol or for his lunch.

He's unhoused. Oh no. It's interesting when you get these people, you know, the pitch would be sit down and be in this documentary Maybe talk about this stuff and that okay overnight on Netflix You're then a worldwide icon and what that can do to some people. There's no safety net No, absolutely. They're just in it and then they have to cope with it. And I think that can be really problematic. I didn't know that. I haven't really followed any of those people since, but. I don't think anyone did.

Except you. I sent my weird fascination. But they kind of became tigers in captivity in some bizarre way. They became zoo animals. 100% and they got attention. And when you go from, you know, you're in a documentary with something hideous has happened or something stressful.

And then the next minute you've got cameo emailing being like, hey, come on our celeb site. It's just a really warping, interesting thing. And I think that's the interesting thing about true crime where the celebrity aspect bleeds in. Well, do you struggle with this as a documentarian? Yeah, at times, because it's always the balance of, are you coming to it with, uh, objectivity comes into it.

How objective are you? My last true crime doc, Mr. Organ, was not objective at all. It was very unobjective. There's also a lot of issues around how you care for talent. I mean, everyone I've made a film with, I I'm Facebook friends with and I still hear from them. I mean I still talk to people from Tickled and Dark Tourist and it's just kind of part of the duty of care is remaining in that world and I think those are really interesting issues to

have. It's not like you make a film with actors, you do your thing and it's kind of a chapter with documentary. All the characters live on with their lives now with more eyes on them and Yeah, it raises some pretty interesting questions. It does. Anyway, look for this documentary. I sort of get a bit more into some of the stuff. So I'm gonna play you what I made. Okay, let's hear it Before I rabbit on too much to Monica and Rob about the things I recommend in the true crime space, I wanted to meet someone who's found themselves smack bang in the middle of the true crime genre.

I had a lot of ideas on who I could talk to for this, people like Erin Lee Carr who makes a lot of true crime documentaries, Erin's appeared on Armchair Expert a few times now and those episodes are a really good listen. But the more I thought about it it one person kept coming to mind. For one thing she was interviewed for an incredibly popular true crime podcast that I devoured while I was in New Zealand. So did a lot of other people. The series was downloaded 10 million times within six weeks of release. That podcast was then turned into a true crime TV show so

she's been portrayed by an actor in a true crime show and now nearly seven years later she hosts her own true crime podcast. In all of this it's almost easy to forget one of the main things about her she experienced crime firsthand she literally experienced true crime so yeah of course I wanted to talk to her. Your beautiful dog's here by the way, who is this? This is Dixon. I'm meeting Taryn Yule at a bar in the valley in Los Angeles. Dixon is her dog, a miniature

Australian shepherd who's currently straining on his collar trying to sniff the buttholes of some other dogs that are here. Dixon right now has seen some other dogs going into a very dog friendly bar and Dixon like any dog gets excited when he sees other dogs. Yes, now he likes to let them know that he's here and also protect me. That protect me line might sound like a throwaway but to Tara it's not. Back in 2016 she was attacked by a con man called John Meehan. He was trying to abduct her on the rooftop parking lot of her apartment building. She managed to get away, thanks in part

to her dog at the time, Cash, who put up his own fight, barking and biting at John's ankles while he attacked her with a knife. Terra won that fight, but not due to any martial arts training. I'm quoting now from Christopher Goffard, who made a podcast about her attacker called Dirty John. Terra had no martial arts background except for a long ago self-defense class in PE. She did however study television violence with an uncommon intensity. In The Walking Dead, she absorbed the first axiom of combat was zombies. They'll keep trying to kill you until you destroy the head by blade or screwdriver, machete or gun.

She regarded the show as a source of survival tricks. When a favorite character extricated himself from a bad spot by biting into an attacker's jugular, she thought, my teeth are a weapon. More than technique, she said, she took a certain mindset from the show, kill or be killed. Tara walked away that day thanks to The Walking Dead, her own tenacity, and her dog Cash. Cash has since passed away and Dixon is her new loyal companion. Dixon named, of course, after Norman Reedus' character Daryl Dixon in The Walking Dead. This whole story is told in episode 5 of the

Dirty John podcast which came out in 2017. The story of a conman who latched on to Terra's mother and the chaos that ensued. When released, the show spent three weeks at the top of the podcast charts. What was the most unexpected aspect of having your story told? How many people it got across to. I wasn't aware that it was going to be so big. I honestly was told that The Walking Dead may hit me up and that's really what I was hoping for. And there was a few people that reached out from that, but not the production.

So I was thankful for those reach outs. And it's very crazy because you become this pseudo-celebrity sense. And that's terminology that is called when your story becomes public for a certain amount of time and you're thrown out there. So being called a celebrity is really interesting even if it's a pseudo celebrity. Tara knows about being a celebrity, or in her words a pseudo celebrity, because Dirty

John made her one. Later today at this bar, she's taking part in a true crime meetup where fans will come and meet their hero. How do you find meeting people that know your story really intimately and know your work? What is that like? Because fans bring a certain energy to things and I'm curious what that relationship has been like for you. It's really crazy to meet so many people out there that have listened and absorb the story. And it's really great because my story is so extreme,

where theirs may not be as extreme, but they're definitely able to relate to me on the aspect of the toxic relationship and domestic violence aspect. I think that it's really important to know that these people are in plain sight, and they're someone that can call on anyone and it's really interesting when I was in New Zealand it was at the start of all of that and

trying to figure out who this person was even with John. She's bringing up New Zealand because that's where we had first met back in 2018. I knew she was there because she was a pseudo celeb. I'd become captivated by her story, followed her on Instagram and noticed she was in the country. At the time I was dealing with a con man of my own for a documentary I was making called Mr. Organ. I reached out to her for some perspective and she was really helpful. In the years since, we've kept in touch, the true crime genre continuing to explode. Even since your story, there's just so much of it.

It's this genre, half of Netflix is true crime. Can you tell me a little bit about what the scene is like at the moment here in 2024? It's a very convoluted scene right now because there's so much content out there and I think right now is the time where we're really switching from the perpetrators becoming the forefront of the stories from now it being survivors and you see that with Voices for Justice with Sarah Turner, you see that with media pressure with Julie Murray talking about her sister Maura Murray and it's really the time to kind of switch. She's right.

There is a shift in true crime where writers, directors and producers are perhaps realizing that victims should take more of the scene to stage in these stories. Instead of glorifying the killers, the lenses turn towards those that were affected. There's a great example of this in a recent HBO True Crime Doc series, Last Call, when a serial killer stalked queer New York. It's in all of us, that fear of being hurt because we're queer. It's a move away from what we saw in the likes of the recent Dharma documentary and narrative series where the killer was the main focus.

That show has become a big part of the debate over the future of true crime, especially when it came to how family members of Dharma's victims were portrayed. With the Dharma series, we had Rita Isabel on the Survivor Squad, my current podcast, and she talks about how she just saw one day on Netflix that her story was coming out and they used her exact footage from the court, from her wanting to try to reach over and try to kill Dahmer on the stand.

Side by side, it looks exactly the same but this person doesn't get compensated for their story, this person doesn't get consulted. Compensation and payment is a whole other debate. There's this line of thinking that no one being interviewed in a true crime podcast or documentary should be paid for it, that it would create bias. It could mean people on camera are just saying certain things because of the money. But is this just another case of the victim being done over, yet again? The creators of the series, whether they are works of journalism or slightly fictionalized retellings, walking away with millions, while the victims are just left with the trauma.

Ryan Murphy, I believe he was a $30 million deal or something for five years and not to mention residuals from those projects as well. So it's really hard when that person is saying and I've gone to places like this too but self harm and wanting to not be here because your story's so out there, you have this trauma you don't know how to deal with, but yet this person is living large, going on vacation, putting their kids in college. It's a bit hard to see that happen. Do you think there's enough safety nets

protecting people that are in these true crime spaces, these documentaries? Do you feel, in talking to the people you've talked to, are people being protected by these production companies that are making this stuff? Not at all because I guess there's two sides to it right people are like true crime is Exploitative and it's too much and the other side is like this is giving people a voice Where do you sit on the scene at the moment because there's also so many different approaches to these stories as well I really like in the UK. There's a set of rules that they go off of documentaries for the survivors

They bring a mental health advocate for the survivors and here in the US. That's not really a wild west Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's no guidelines. There's not a set of rules that we go off of It's just okay. You want to interview Casey Anthony, you want her story out there, okay, get it. And it's really unfortunate because with that case, it's so, in my opinion, in plain sight, wrong. However, you're giving this person a platform and letting them speak. Right now, Tara says she's trying to take some of that power back. She's had her story told in the podcast Erty John and then that podcast was turned into that TV series in 2019. Now she has her own podcast about the true crime genre called the Survivor

Squad and it's her voice. So I'm able to bond with them on the certain level of relationships and that aspect even. As the name suggests, she talks to other survivors, survivors of the crime and of the true crime genre. You really don't have control of your own story when it gets out there in the media, but what I'm doing now is trying to regain control, trying to help survivors know, okay, so if they do a podcast and they don't sign anything, they could take that and make money off of it, no problem. Same with a TV series, they could take that from the podcast and use that information

because that becomes public record. Any advice to people when they're being drawn into these worlds where people are telling their story? Know your worth. Know that you could fight for anything. You could try to get in contact with any production company, any producer, any director. Just keep reaching now and making noise because if you keep doing that, you will make a difference. Talking to Terra, I get the feeling she's used to talking about her story, the attack and what happened to her and her family and that maybe in some way all this talking has been a sort of therapy but then I remember the story in Dirty

John how crazy it was, how dark, all that she went through and how she still has people like me coming to talk to her about it. What do you do to stay sane and light out of the heaviness of some of this stuff? What's your happy place to go to? I watch yoga and then I watch Sweet Home Alabama on repeat. As we've been talking, a small crowd started to gather inside the bar. It's time for me to leave Tara to go and do her thing, to share her story again. Part of me worries about

her having to keep dealing with this, then I see Dixon by her side and remember what she did, and I remember that she's about a thousand times tougher than me and she'll be just fine. She is tough as nails, I kind of wish I could talk more about what she actually did but if people haven't listened to Dirty John and watched it I kind of wish I could talk more about what she actually did But if people haven't listened to dirty John and watch it I kind of don't want to spoil it Which again is a weird thing true crime does because I'm talking about something that's been in the news And yet I'm sitting here thinking I don't want to give spoilers a spoiler like it's a movie

Yeah, like it's a movie, but I don't because the storytelling is so good. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do know what you mean. That's inherent in this problem. Yeah, it's this really crazy bubble that exists with so many interesting issues around it. I haven't decided where I sit on so many of these things. It's really complicated. So she was involved in the podcast. Yeah, she was interviewed. She was interviewed.

It was a series of articles. Then it was a podcast. She was a part of that it was a series of articles, then it was a podcast. She was a part of that. She had no idea that it would suddenly be sitting. I mean, she's happy with the podcast. I think elements of her, I get the feeling she wishes she was more involved maybe. But then that's the nature of telling a story to a journalist, right? If you're telling someone's story and everyone you talk to is like heavily involved in the

production, you never get anything made. You can't. Yeah, you can't. So, okay, but then once the podcast was made, she agreed to be part of. Yeah, no, she's into it. I think she's just in hindsight, she's looking at it going, what am I left with now? You know, I've got this story out there. What do I do? Does she have anything to do with the show at all? That's a really good question. I don't know. I think that basically the rights for that podcast would have been sold. Yeah, having nothing to do with her.

They wouldn't have had to ask her. That's also a bizarre thing that all of a sudden your life can be commodified and you have nothing to do with it. It seems wrong and should be illegal on face value. Yeah, there's something about it feels a bit off, right? Yeah. And I think of the Dharma narrative.

There was that scene that we talked about where you've got this black woman who is in court, one of her loved ones was murdered. And, you know, courtroom footage has her lurching over towards Dharma because she's so emotional. And imagine being her, she's sitting on her couch, she's flicking through Netflix. It's like, oh, they made a drama about that awful killer that killed my loved one.

You're watching, not only is it about your loved one being killed, but then there is an actor playing you, recreating you lunging at Dharma. And are they changing the names? This doesn't even feel... No, it's all because it's all news. It's all in the public. And that's pretty much up for grabs. And I think that's where you can see why they get pretty hurt and annoyed by that. It's just odd because there are rules around certain things. Can you do a movie off of someone's memoir and not include them?

These are actually really good questions around the legalities of that. I mean, you have to buy the rights to certain things. Exactly. But then I think if you have made a podcast and you have got people's permission to take part in that podcast, you own all the IP for that story and then that can be put on elsewhere. And when you're being interviewed for some little podcast, you're not thinking, oh, I wonder if this will explode and then be sold to Netflix, right? What if a show gets made about Fightless Bird and there's an actor playing the adult Disney

woman and then she's like, fuck. What if a show gets made about flightless bird and there's an actor playing the adult Disney woman and then she's like, fuck. What if they make a true crime show about flightless bird and they cast us as the actors and the person playing me is some deranged awful person? But we own that IP, so they would have to buy it from us, to be fair. We're in America, we'd sue.

Exactly, exactly. We'd take them for everything. Oh, I can't wait for that to happen, actually. Yeah, if you're thinking about it, please. Oh my god. I think it's all interesting things to think about when you're watching and enjoying these true crime shows, is thinking about the people in them. Have they been consulted? Would they like their portrayal?

Is there a difference when something's dramatized versus just straight documentary? I get wound up watching a lot of true crime docs where like the music is ratcheted up to 10. Because you're like, don't tell me how to feel about this thing. I know, but that's also storytelling. But it's storytelling. And docs are stories. No, they are. That's the point.

Yeah, totally. It's something I saw Michael Moore give a talk, the bowling for Columbine Doc Maker, and he said something about documentary. And he just made this really clear point this way stuck with me, that documentaries, they're films. They're not this other genre. They're not news. No, they're films.

And they have all the same techniques to make them pop that a narrative has with music and pacing and editing and sound and editing and sound and color and all that stuff. What's the best true crime doc? What's your favorite? Well look, I've actually I've made a little top 10 of my docs but they're not in order but I sort of wanted to go through them and just quickly give them a shout out because these are my favorites. Okay. None of them are perfect but I think they do really interesting things. And the first one is a doc called Dear Zachary.

Oh. Which is, I think, on your list on the Armchair website, right? It's Dax's favorite doc. Maybe. I feel like he's talked about it. It's one of the... It's like... Have you watched it or just heard about it?

I think I've just heard... Wait, can you remind me? Yes. So, look, I've gone through IMDB. Okay. Because I always muck up my recollection of everything. Yeah. So, this is the synopsis for

Dear Zachary. A filmmaker decides to memorialize a murdered friend when his friend's ex-girlfriend announces she's expecting his son. And so basically this documentary maker, he's not even a doc maker, he just picks up a camera and starts filming. His best friend is murdered. The documentarian's best friend is murdered. So he starts thinking, I'm very curious about this because his ex was involved. And as he's making the documentary, really bad stuff happens. And it's so deeply personal. It's the least objective documentary you'll ever see because it's all someone very emotively

trying to discover why his best friend was killed and what unfolds a child's born during the making of the doc. Oh, I just got chills. Yeah, some stuff happens. This is just a little bit of the trailer of Dear Zachary. It was from 2008. And also for anyone wanting to know where to watch these, because people are watching and listening in all different countries, just Google it.

Like, another frustrating thing is like, if you say like, if you say, no, no, honestly, if you like, no, no, but if, if, if you say like... Was that necessary for you to say? No, honestly, if you like... That's so aggressive. No, no, but if anything's out, it's out on Netflix. Netflix America might have a thing, Netflix Iceland won't have it. I see filmmakers releasing things all the time, especially docs, and everyone's like, where is it? It depends where you are in the world, because it's carved up. But if you Google the documentary name, Google tells you.

It's really good. All right you Google the documentary name, Google tells you it's really good. All right, let's hear the trailer. I'm an only child and I'll get around to why this is of any importance whatsoever. When I had to say was my son murdered and take that into your soul and then to know how cold-bloodedly he was murdered. Oh my god. Now the Dear Zachary is, have you seen it Rob? No I have not.

I watched it in a cinema at a film festival in New Zealand. Pretty much the whole cinema was just crying the whole time. It's rough. So with all these things, take care when you watch them. This is awful, David. Okay, Blackfish. Blackfish and the Cove are the two ones I want to talk about next. And I think you mentioned this weeks ago on Armchair about the Blackfish doc in regards to zoos. And SeaWorld, yeah.

Blackfish was made in 2013. It was about the treatment of animals at SeaWorld. And I would bookend it with The Cove from 2009, which is about the fishing of dolphins in Japan. And that was super intense. Even though I claimed I didn't think dolphins were actually cute, that it's just in our zeitgeist. So in New Zealand, I loved your argument. I love that you're taking on dogs.

You're like, fuck dogs. And now you're taking on dogs. You're like fuck dogs and now you're taking on dolphins It's the best. Well, I like dolphins, but they are predator. We've talked about it. They're horny. Yeah attack Stay tuned for more flightless bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors after a word from our sponsors. Flightless Bird is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now, Monica Padman. Yes. How is your social battery right now?

If it's a little iPhone percentage, is it 100%? Is it yellow and critical? Is it in the middle? I'm at 78%. I'm pretty good right now. That's really good. I've been low. Cold weather.

I don't feel like going out. I ordered two new Lego sets. I'm just at home building Lego. That's how critical things are. But that's good, it's good to recharge. I was feeling so low battery, but then I had therapy and I talked a bunch of stuff out and I have it again tomorrow and I'm excited.

I already have like a list of things I need to talk to her about. Yeah, cool. It can be easy to like ignore that social battery and you can just end up feeling a bit slumpy at different times of the year and therapy can be a good fix. It can.

It can also just give you a self-awareness to build a social life that doesn't drain your battery. Maybe you're living a social life in a way that doesn't make sense to you and there might be smarter ways to do it. And it's often so helpful to have a third person who can see it. And as good as building Lego is, you do sometimes need to leave the house and see other humans

because it's a part of being a human being. I'm still, in my therapy, sorting out boundary things. I think I'm getting better, but I still cave to things and I say yes to things and I should say no. So yeah, find your social sweet spot with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash bird today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp.com slash bird. We have a very popular children's book in New Zealand called Opo the Friendly Dolphin and it was about New Zealand's friendliest dolphin and you go to a certain book in New Zealand called Opo the Friendly Dolphin. And it was about New Zealand's friendliest dolphin.

And you go to a certain beach in New Zealand and Opo would just be there swimming in the shallows. Wow. It would be your nightmare. You'd probably kill it and knock them on their head. No, I, no, they're fine. Okay, hold on. We have to be really clear.

We have to stop this whole thing. You're watching the code. Yeah, kill those dolphins. No, I don't want them to be dead. I like them. I just like to be objective about, we all think they're so cute. Yeah, culturally we are being told.

That they're cute. And I don't think things that aren't cute should be killed. You can be ugly and you should live. But I just... It's one of the best things you've said. You know, I look, I see your point. I think you're a cuter animal than the dolphin. Yeah, but they're great.

These are both really good dogs. Blackfish and the Cove do a double hit. Quite intense. Here's a little trailer from Blackfish, which is probably my favorite of the two. When Tilikum arrived at SeaWorld, he was twice as large as the next animal. We stored these whales in what we call a module, which was 20 feet across and 30 feet deep, and the lights were all turned out. Probably led to what I think is a psychosis. All whales in captivity are all psychologically traumatized. It's not just telecom.

If you were in a bathtub for 25 years, don't you think you'd get a little psychotic? Oh my god. Yeah true I actually love the bathtub but not for 25 years. I think Blackfish is a great example of how documentaries can create real life change. SeaWorld profits dropped 84% after the film was released and that's a pretty amazing result. It's shut down right? SeaWorld's still going. Oh it is? Yeah SeaWorld's still doing. Oh, it is? Yeah, SeaWorld's still doing its thing and they still have captive orcas. People still go to SeaWorld,

but they have really suffered from this because yeah, it's stupid to keep these big fish in captivity. Well, mammals, not fish. God, I'm impressed by America that people took that to heart and not just one side of the political spectrum took that to heart. It not just one side of the political spectrum took that to heart.

It sounds like a lot of people did. I think just the whole bath sub analogy and just going like we probably shouldn't be keeping these things. I don't want to be in a bath for that long. You just don't think about it. Before watching Blackfish, I didn't think about how these animals,

you look at a big tank, you're like, oh, that's a lot of water. It can like swim around. Horrific. I know. I didn't clock it until I saw it. I, oh, that's a lot of water. It can like swim around. Right. Horrific. I know. No, I know. I didn't clock it until I saw it. I'm glad that that analogy hit home for people.

I think whatever works, but it's not a very good analogy because we aren't meant to be in water at all times. So it doesn't really make sense. You know, that's true. That's true. Whales do exist in water. Yeah, that is an advantage they have. It's more like she should say, would we like to be living in a closet for 25 years?

Yeah, no, this is true. I'm happy with the way I have revised that. Yeah, it created a big change. So Blackfish, big fan. Have you seen it? No. You should watch it. Do Blackfish. I havefish, big fan. Have you seen it? No. You should watch it.

Do Blackfish. I have a lot to watch. Okay, The Jinx. This is one of your faves. 2015. You loved it too? I loved it. I think The Jinx is one of the best true crime docs ever made.

Andrew Jurecki made it. Again, from the synopsis, Jurecki examines the complicated life of reclusive real estate icon Robert Durst, the key suspect in a series of Unsolved Crimes. God, it's good. What this doc did really well is it used recreations incredibly well.

It was one of the first series that used these incredibly slick. I mean, people have been doing recreations since, you know, Errol Morris started, but these are slick. I agree, because I hate reenactments. Same, remember like the old true crime shows when you were kids? Unsolved mysteries.

Unsolved mysteries. Everything's in shadow and really cheesy. I think the jinx made people realize that this is a really legitimate form of storytelling. Plus you had your central character, Dyrus, burping when you're like nervous. Anytime a doc has real time change, as it's developing over time, the documentarians are having to adjust because new things are happening and the person at the center is...

That's a really good point because that's another thing this does so well. It's got these really slick recreations, but then what it does in the final episode is it pivots and it shifts as it shifts into real time. Suddenly you're in the interview with the crew, you're seeing how it's all being set up and again I don't want to spoil things but there's an incredible moment. It's fucked documentary making in a way because it has the perfect ending. Perfect. And no one, and I think people when watch a documentary, they want a Hollywood ending. I know.

They don't get it. The Jinx gave it to them. Yes. Because... And now we expect it and we want it. It's like, they did it. Why can't you? The ending of The Jinx, the central character is wearing a mic, goes into the bathroom at

the end, starts mumbling under his breath, and it's all captured, and it's kind of remarkable. God, it's so good, it's so good. Began some ethical issues, the way that audio at the end was edited, it was edited in a way that slightly changed the impact of it. Oh, really? Which is a really interesting thing to read up on after you've watched it.

Also read an interesting bit of trivia. Robert Durst used doe-eyed contact lenses during the filming of the doc to make him appear like a baby deer. Whoa. Some contacts just made his eyes a bit more doe-eyed contact lenses during the filming of the doc to make him appear like a baby deer. Whoa. Some context just made his eyes a bit more doe, a bit more like, oh, yama. Like you care about him a little bit.

Like you care about him. And you do actually, like he's a weird character in that even early on you're kind of like, yeah, I think he's murdered. It seems like he's murdered. It seems very clear, but his eyes are, I'm actually gonna order some doe-eyed contacts. Oh no, no, no.

So I'm a bit more innocent as I sit across from you. That's so creepy that you'd have to change your eyes to appear likable. She's looking at me like to disagree and I'm just like, oh, doe-eyes. Oh God, so negative. Okay, this is a little bit of the jinx. She talked on the telephone with her husband, then she vanished. And no one has seen Kathleen Durst since. Durst was wanted for murder in Texas.

He's a suspect for murders in Los Angeles, Westchester County, New York. He belongs to one of the richest families in New York City. Might be a little eccentric. I think Bob is very smart. I mean, he's managed to get away with three murders. Sorry, I don't mean to laugh. I know. It's a crazy lot.

It is a sign of intelligence. Yeah. No, I mean, it's a remarkable series. If you haven't seen The Jinx, Google it, watch it. It's great. I wanted to highlight a number four, The Staircase. Brilliant minseries. Originally it's a French co-production. It came out in 2004, but then Netflix made it big when it came to Netflix in 2018. This is a little bit of the trailer for The Staircase. Just talking and finishing our drinks.

And then she said, I gotta go in because I've got the conference call in the morning. And she started walking out that way. And I stayed right here. Don't think I've anything special to her, certainly not thinking this is the last time I'm gonna see her. I said, good night, I'll be up a little bit later. And I stayed here, and she walked. And the last I saw her was when I was there, and she was just walking here.

That's it. That was the last I saw Kathleen alive. No, she was alive when I found her, but barely. I know. I know. The staircase, to me, is the actual first true crime piece of media that hit the mainstream. I'm with you.

This I think is the actual turning point. Even though I wanna give props to Serial, I do think it's the staircase. Staircase, it's remarkable. When I made Tickled, I had no idea what I was doing because I'd never made a doc before and my producer, Cathy Neal, told me, you must watch the staircase. And that kind of started my interest in the genre in a way. And yeah, the staircase is brilliant, because you are embedded with this man that was Michael Peterson talking in

that trailer. He has a certain distinct way of talking. His wife goes inside. He's also very likable. He's so, he's fun. He's a like a mystery sort of horror writer. Yeah, North Carolina. He's got daughters. He goes inside, his wife is at the bottom of the stairs and the entire basically series is trying to discover how did she come to be at the bottom of these stairs. She fell down the stairs. There is so much blood. It doesn't seem natural for someone that has fallen down one flight of stairs. Amazing reveals in the documentary,

like his previous wife was also found the bottom of some stairs. And again, I don't mean to laugh. Like this is the fucked up thing that true crime does. These are real lives. And yet it's so part of the culture of watch the series, of rewatch, I've watched the specials, I've watched the drama. And so it feels so part of pop culture.

That's why it's easy to laugh at these things because it's so. But also, OK, to be fair to us and the world, tragedy is funny in some ways. There's always something that you're like, what the fuck? And in this case, it's that, right? It's what like Shakespeare nailed down to, right? It's like, it's this what the fuck, this is crazy. Life has both happening all at once. And when you see it in a story, it's very apparent,

right? Where it's like, oh my God, the same thing, same with Robert Dyrs. There was multiple murders in that story where it's like, wait, he already did that. We've watched so much fiction and so much made up storytelling as writers try and surprise us, but nothing can be more surprising

than the stuff that's happened in reality, right? Yeah. And yet the staircase, if you can hunt down the original series, it's very long. The Netflix series is truncated slightly, but the original French one is so in-depth. And the other thing it does, which True Crime doesn't often get to do, you're embedded with his defense team. And being with his lawyers, as they're coming up with how to defend him, it's fucking extraordinary. Yes.

Oh, speaking of, that reminds me of, I wonder if it's on your list, and I had not thought about this in a long time, making a murderer. Yeah, making a murderer. That's not on my list, it's on my honorable mentions of my cultural impact. Cause that was huge.

Huge. Steven Avery, I believe. Yes, yes, yes. And that was an incredibly well put together story that left a lot of things unturned and I think just, yeah. And about our justice system too. I think that's what hit home the most for me about that whole story is, oh my god, the justice system is so fucked.

Which is, I think, why we're drawn to this stuff as well, because I've never been put on trial for something. But it's like you're always fascinated by... Knock on wood. You do think, how would I fear if I was drawn into the system? Would it treat me fairly? Obviously, a lot of people are not treated fairly by the American justice system. It's terrifying.

And so we have a vested interest in it because in the back of our minds I'm thinking could this be me, could this be a loved one at some point. If Monica Murda is someone, how will that go down? Oh my god. Would you throw me under the bus? I was talking with Roosevelt about this the other day. Okay. And I think you and Liz talked about this on Sync as well.

We did. Look, it depends your intent with the murder. Yeah. I tend to help friends, but then if you had... If I was a dent, menace to society? Yeah, would you do it again? Right. You know, it's would you do it again? What was your intent to kill this person?

I would take the other person into account in different ways. Okay, okay. But no, I'm not saying that I would... You'd see both sides? Yeah. It would be awkward though. I know. I have a recurring dream where I wake up and I'm not saying that I would, yeah. It would be awkward though. I know. I have a recurring dream where I wake up

and I've done a hideous crime, like a murder. Really? And I wake up in absolute panic of guilt. I feel the guilt and think, oh no, another day of living with this thing I've done that no one knows about. What does that mean? David. Should I talk to my theorems about it?

That's dark, yeah. I think it means you are living with some sort of guilt about something, obviously not, not, I don't think. Something. That you've murdered. To be clear, I haven't murdered. Or if I did, I don't remember. Right, either you blocked out a murder

or you haven't murdered. But you have guilt. I think, I mean, since I'm your therapist now. No, do it. This is religious based. Yeah, that's actually what my actual therapist actually sees as well. No, really.

Yeah, and that religion gives you a lot of guilt. When you're indoctrinated in the way you were, guilt is gonna be in your life for a long time. And you have to work on shutting that because you didn't do anything. I genuinely hadn't really made the connection with that guilt dream, but I was just like, there's that horrible dream again about how I've done something awful and I'm like living with it.

Well, they make you feel that if you leave the church or if you abandon Jesus, it's akin to murder. The worst thing, yeah, totally. It's the worst thing you can do. And you've done that. Oh, God. But it's good. It's good. It's good murder. One bit of trivia about the staircase that I really like. I'm going to read this out. Film editor Sophie Brunette had a 15 year relationship with the subject of the staircase,

Michael Peterson, lasting from 2002 until 2017. The director claims her involvement never influenced her editing. Yeah right, Oh my god! I love that fact. So when you're watching The Staircase, remember it's being edited by the person that is fucking. Who's in love with him. The guy that is potentially the killer. Wow. Love that.

I love that. And if you're a documentary editor, the director isn't there by your side directing everything. An editor of a doc is almost as much of a director as the director. Yeah, oh for sure. They're in there making decisions, right? So it's like, you're like, you cut shit. It's like, you're in there making these calls. You make the whole, you decide what's coming to the.

What is gonna come to the listeners. So I find that fact, chef's kiss fact. Wait a minute, do you think you're the type of person who could fall in love with a prisoner? Cause I think this is similar. I am. I'm attracted to people who, I hate to admit it, but I thought to think I'm a bit edgy. I don't like to be attracted to like the regular things. And so I think someone in prison. That's also your religious thing by the way.

Get out of my fucking head. That is true. So yeah, I think potentially it depends what I did. I'm also avoidant. Right. And so having someone in prison would be heaven. That's great for you. Because it's a thrill when I get my little conjugal visit.

Yeah, but you don't have to see them that often. I'm not being bothered by texts. I'm not being bothered by having to really commit to anything. Brilliant. Actually, I might actively start seeking this out. No, okay, listen. I, okay. It could be a whole episode.

About you doing that? Yeah, me falling in love with a pretty girl. We could do a whole series on you falling in love. It can be about the prison system, but instead of taking like a heavy-handed look at the prison industrial complex, it's just me trying to find a girlfriend in prison. Looking at the market.

God, oh my God. Quite problematic. Well, I was sort of falling in love with Adnan in serial. Charming right? Yes, sweet boy. We're out now. Sweet boy. I know. Anyway, okay go on. Last call, I mentioned this in the documentary, but it's a series on HBO and it is about a serial killer who is stalking gay men in New York. And it's a really good example of the killer not being put up on a pedestal. So you watch Anything To Do with Jeffrey Dahmer, including the old Armchair in Dangerous we did about Dahmer.

The center of our attention was Dahmer. Look at this man, look at the shock, look at what he's done. I did the same thing in Dark Tourist with him. What Last Call does is it's all about the victim's stories and not glorifying this asshole who was killing people. Yeah. And that's pretty special. And I think in true crime in general,

and Tera talked about this a bit, it is something that's starting to happen more and more where directors and producers are aware that, hey, maybe we should be focusing on the victims more and not glorifying the killer. Yeah. This is a little trailer from that.

Dad went down to New York on a business trip and never came home. My brother, my uncle, my friend, he just disappeared. These were pickup crimes. They were last seen at a gay bar. Five Oaks, the townhouse. Clearly, a serial murderer going after gay men was on the loose. It was so frightening because everyone was a suspect. The queer community was very much trying to push law enforcement to give a shit.

Yeah, it's really good. Last call, it's on HBO. It's really good. Okay. Shout out to the thin blue line at number six. It's from 88. Errol Morris directed it. Errol Morris is the guy who basically made the recreation a viable thing. There was a lot of people when they watched his documentary, they were like, this isn't a doc. You can't do recreation. It just wasn't Done in the scene. He did it and it worked really well The synopsis a film that successfully argued that a man was wrongly convicted for a murder by a corrupt justice system in

Dallas County, Texas. So you'd like it because it's about the system as much as the story It's really beautiful and this is a bit of the trailer for that Gus rose walked out the story. It's really incredible. Isn't a false confession thing? I don't want to say. False confession genre. Nothing makes me more angry. I tend to agree. Yeah, it's so frustrating. It's like too much for my brain to handle that people are getting tricked into ending their lives.

Yeah, completely. The pressure that can go on in some of those rooms when you have got a cop in front of you. And they pick really vulnerable people. Like, they're really smart about who they pick to get a false confession. Yeah. And you're just pressuring young people who are being told,

you'll be set free if you just say this thing or just do this thing. I would do it. You'd cave? I think. I think I'd be capable of caving as well. The pressure if you're being locked away and confronted by a bunch of cops. Yeah. And for a long ass time, we don't really recognize that,

that your brain does go into like a different mode, and I think you're just in survival mode, get me out of here. It's survival mode. Yeah, completely. Yeah, I know. We all like to think that we will do the right thing, but there's a reason that people don't do the right thing, and it's not because necessarily they're bad people.

No. Paradise Lost is at 96. You know this one from Joe Bullinshaw? Yeah, so these were three goth kids, loved metal, in America that got blamed for a, I think it was a murder of three children at the time. And basically it was just satanic panic, took over the town and you know,

these kids were sent to prison for this for a very long time. They were eventually vindicated. Damien Echols who was spent decades in prison. He's out now. Have you talked to him? I met him very briefly. He was in New Zealand. I bumped into him in a store which was so weird. What? And you recognized him? Yeah, he's very distinctive. And I've followed his story for so long. Peter Jackson actually made his own version of this documentary later on. And he came to New Zealand to do a Q&A.

And I remember being in this PAC theatre. Peter Jackson, you know, made Lord of the Rings. Damien Echols, this man who had been on Death Row and had recently gotten out. And it came to question and answer time at the end. And you know how when audiences ask questions, they're sometimes kind of painful? Yeah, yeah. This was one of the worst. It was like you had Peter Jackson up there and Damien and people just wanted to do the monologue. So they weren't really questions. They just wanted to share a story.

Oh no. It was really painful. Anyway, this was a little- Did he say anything in that Q&A that stuck with you? To be honest, no, because I don't really remember it. Because most of the questions were just so terrible. But just seeing him up there was powerful. You know, here's this guy that was wrongfully convicted just because he listened to a lot of heavy metal

and the town didn't like him. He was on death row and what death row does to a person's mind fascinates me. I know, I want to know more about that. It's actually should probably be a flightless bird, a death row episode. It is a really interesting thing that America does. Not every state, obviously. Totally. But yeah, for me, there's almost no greater fear or punish.

It's just, to me, horrific. I don't really care. We can get into this in the episode. Yeah, we should do that. We should do that. And maybe you can talk to him. But now I'm becoming that person who's like trying to exploit. If we could come to him with a certain way that he could come to the table where he would want to tell something he wanted to tell, that would be a great thing to explore with someone like Damien. Oh, what a horrible, horrible experience. Okay, go on. This is just a quick bit from that trailer. In a statement given to the police and obtained by a Memphis newspaper, 17 year old Jesse

Miss Kelly allegedly confesses to watching two other suspects choke, rape and sexually mutilate three West Memphis second graders. The murders had been part of a satanic ritual. Satanic worship. And horrific ritualistic sacrifice. We're just sitting on the couch watching TV the night we were arrested. They had to find somebody to pin this on. This trouble is getting out of hand.

We the jury find Jesse Lloyd Miss Kelly Jr. guilty of second degree murder. Jason Baldwin guilty of capital murder. Damien Echols guilty of capital murder. This doesn't change anything. Our son was still a murderer. Christopher's dead. Our son was still dead. And he was tortured to death by three murdering bastards on a ditch bike.

He was eight years old. Anyway, turns out they didn't do the murder. And they just went to death row for a long time. Also features music by Metallica. Yeah. Love Metallica. So big behindica, so I'm big behind that. Yeah, that's a great, again, one of the big original docs that sort of transcended time, I think. Totally.

If you haven't seen Paradise Lost, big ups. Okay, number eight, Capturing the Freedmans. This is dark. It's an early film from Andrew Drakie, who did the Jinx. Synopsis is a documentary about the Freedmen's, a seemingly typical upper middle class Jewish family whose world is instantly transformed when the father and his younger son are arrested and charged with shocking and horrible crimes. by the media and the police was so incredibly way out. The very nature of these charges is so absurd. It was just generally a free fall.

It's almost surreal. I don't think any of us had any notion of what was going on or what we were doing or where any of this was leading. Look, this is probably one of the more intense stocks on here. It's pretty dark. Darker than Dear Zachary? I'd say it's similar. It's dealing with similar issues. It goes dark, it goes places. And during the making of the film, Arnold, who is accused of these horrific crimes, his eldest son picks up a camcorder and just starts filming the family. And it's just really interesting seeing this family start to fall apart as they come to

grips with what they did or didn't do. And there's a question of whether one of the father's sons was involved in the crimes as well. And so it's like watching sort of a hellish take on like the family unit. And it was controversial at the time because Andrew Dreckey, the director, obviously I'm a fan, you know, made the jinx and a lot of things. I like capturing the Freedmen's a lot as well. But at the time he was very careful to say, I don't have any stakes in this. I don't really have an opinion. What happened? I don't have any stakes in this. I don't really have an opinion. What happened? I don't know."

Oh. And yet after the fact, he went and funded the appeal for one of those who went to prison. So he was very deeply involved in what he thought happened, but didn't get that across in the documentary, which is just an interesting tape to kind of hide that view. God, but how can you not get invested? It's impossible. Yeah, and it is that thing of there's this discussion, you know, journalism should be objective. And sure, it should, but also nothing is objective.

Nothing is. Ever. Because we're humans, and if you have a human writing or doing anything, then yeah. I wonder what will happen when AI becomes journalistic. Yeah, which it is. I mean, it's writing shit now. It's terrifying. But yeah, one could argue, is that more objective than a human being writing it?

Interesting. When it's also being trained on a lot of human content. It's trained by humans, so probably not. It'll also have the same biases, which is crazy. Okay. Okay. Number nine, The Impostor. Have you seen The Impostor?

No. It's from 2012. It's a documentary centered on a young man in Spain who claims to a grieving Texas family that he is their 16 year old son who's been missing for three years. Wow. So you've got a family who's had a missing son for three years. Suddenly, a guy turns up same age. Looks like. Looks quite different. Oh no, no. No, all these parents. Oh, this is heartbreaking.

The Impostor and the Staircase, I both used as motivation for how I made Tickled. It's just a really great, compelling story, the way it's constructed. It's just the perfect arc of information. It takes you on a journey. God, you'll love this one. Actually watch The Impostor, Monica, out of all these.

First. The Impostor's the one for you. Okay. But the thing is, it's kind of interesting that the title is a big giveaway, or is it not? Yeah, no, it is a big giveaway. It is a big giveaway. And I think, yeah, the entire time though, the joy of it is, you go and thinking this guy's an imposter. As you're watching, you start to second guess some of that stuff. Oh my god. It's really good. Here's a little bit of the trailer.

We found a kid here. He's about 14, 15 years old. The thought of what somebody could have done to him. It gives you nightmares. He doesn't have a name. He's just a kid. He's just a kid. He's just a kid.

He's just a kid. He's just a kid. He's just a kid. He's just a kid. He's just a kid. He's just a kid. He's just a kid. He's just a kid. He's just a kid. He's just a kid. He's just a kid. He's just a kid. The thought of what somebody could have done to him. It gives you nightmares.

He doesn't have no ID, no documents on him. He's very scared. From as long as I remember, I wanted to be someone else. We had no idea what kind of person we were getting. He had changed so much. There was just something wrong about it. I've seen this one. Wow.

You've seen it wrong? Yeah, I've seen this one. It's pretty remarkable, right? Yeah. Okay, but this brings up an interesting ethical question, because if you're a parent and your child goes missing for three years, let's be, I mean, this is so harsh and horrible to say, but by the police standards, they're most likely dead.

Yeah. If you are comforted by the idea that this kid is back. What's the problem with that? Exactly. If you really start breaking it apart, by the idea that this kid is back. What's the problem with that? Exactly. If you really start breaking it apart, is it a net positive that the parents actually feel better, even though it's all a lie? Yeah, I agree.

And I think there's probably worlds where it might be okay. I think you'd have to question the motivations of the child that comes back. No, you're gonna love this one. It keeps you guessing the whole way. I think you like the idea of people's motivations and why they're doing things and this is all based around that. Yeah, I think you'll like it. I'm excited. I'm gonna report back. The final thing on my list is a podcast. Obviously there's the serials and these shows like that that we've all listened to. There's also one out of New Zealand, I think, which I haven't listened to, I think called

Who Shat on the Floor at My Wedding. Oh my god. It's a true crime podcast where someone takes a, I haven't listened to it so I might, but I've read enough about it. Someone takes a shit on the floor at a wedding and the whole true crime podcast is trying to figure out who did it. Figuring that out. Oh, I love that. That's hilarious.

So if you're wanting something a bit lighter, with there's no death, I recommend that. But In the Dark, I think it had three seasons, but season two is the thing that I just think everyone should listen to. Really? It's my favorite true crime telling of a story in podcast form. It explores the legal odyssey surrounding Curtis Flowers,

who is accused of shooting four people to death inside Tardy Furniture in Mississippi in 1996. I'll play a little bit of an episode, but it's just beautifully told. It's really good journalism. I think at a time when people are like moaning about journalism being terrible and so this is an example of a team coming together, going through a lot of data, interviewing a lot of people, and it leading to someone being released from prison. It's really well done and it's really well constructed.

This is what it sounds like. Okay. It's been more than three years since I got an email from a woman telling me about a man named Curtis Flowers. In the time since, I'd moved to Mississippi, interviewed hundreds of people, examined every piece of evidence in the case against him. And yet, in all that time, there was one person I was never able to really talk to. Until now. I'm in. Yeah, in the Dark Season 2, it's so compelling and so good.

And I just feel not as many people know about it as the likes of a serial, and I think it could do with some more listens. I love this. David, this is awesome. Jam-packed. I think this has been great. You are an expert in this field. I'm a fan of the field. Okay, you can say you're a fan, but you are an expert in the field. I think I've texted you before and said,

what are your favorite docs? You have, yeah, thank you. Just because I need to know from someone who understands the medium. Tickled would be on so many people's lists. I appreciate you did not put it on yours and you stayed humble, but it would definitely be on mine. And if you have not watched Tickle,

which I'm sure at this point, if you're listening to this show, you probably have. It's incredible. It's a fun one. There's actually, we've just highlighted such a cultural thing that I'm still dealing with is if you compliment a New Zealander, we just want to disappear into the ground.

Small poppies. But thank you. I mean tall poppies. I appreciate it. Sure, there's words to. You should start doing small poppy. And then try to be tall and big and then- I really like that. Try to be tall and big.

Yeah, I really like that. Just really quickly, there's one more thing that I really like called a very fatal murder. It's a parody of the genre. Oh, fun. And this is just a quick excerpt that I liked. When I think about the murder of Hailey Price, there are two things that are important.

It's what I know and what I don't. Hailey Price, 17 years old at time of death, five feet, five inches, life cut short and senseless act of violence. I know that this is the most compelling murder in America. I know that the victim was a supple young girl in the prime of her life. Supple.

And I know that she was killed by simultaneous gunshot stabbing, strangling, drowning. Ethel, have the police charged anyone with the murder? No, charges have been brought. David, would you like me to email police with recommendations of people to charge with the murder? Not yet. It's a really good parody. And if you like that, American Vandal is another great parody about the genre.

That's fun. That's the dicks. The dicks. Yeah, so it's like they try and solve the crime of like who's throwing dicks everywhere. Yes, that's so funny. And you have this great parody of the genre as well, which it's a great criticism of the genre. Well, one thing that we didn't talk about,

but that just reminded me, and is probably important to say, and I know a big pushback of a lot of this genre often and maybe mainly in podcasting they pick stories where the victim is a sweet white woman. Yeah, totally. We care more about a young white woman than someone that isn't that. 100% it's a problem in all crime reporting. Exactly. Yeah, the victim you see will be like a smiling white kid as opposed to like all the

Crimes that aren't reported on as much. That are so many and so prevalent. Aren't humans great? Yeah, oh this really makes me scared Yeah, that's a whole other topic look this could go on forever and we'll wind it up But true crime does also play into this idea that we become, as a people, more scared than we need to be. There's this perception if you take in a lot of what you are reading, what's reported on, it does give you a disproportionate feeling of what the danger level is in the world. And I think that is a really interesting thing as well. So if you listen to this, please don't be too scared.

Be cautious out there. Well, also do you think it could be, I know we keep talking, but could it increase the amount of crime in some ways? That's the other thing. I can't remember who said this. It might've been a tweet. Someone commented,

if we keep pushing the true crime genre as far as it can go, eventually it's gonna be a documentary we're watching where the killer has picked up a camcorder. 100%. They picked up their iPhone, they're recording it all, and it's like, oh my God, here's a true crime documentary and we can learn about it from the perspective.

That's where we're headed. Yeah, I could see it becoming very nefarious. Well, yeah, and I think you've got to think about this on the ethical boundary of is this journalism or is it entertainment? Because, and it comes back to that thing of centering the victims more than the perps because if you're watching things where the perps have been glorified a certain sort of person will watch that and go oh I can be a

celebrity out of this. Which is a whole other part of America about the celebrity of doing awful things and filming it. Yeah. Oh boy. All right. So I feel like I just talked to you a lot and I wanted more of your like takes and films. But we can probably do a part two at some point. I loved it. This was very, very fun. I liked hearing your picks and I really liked hearing from. Oh, my God. Tara Newell was the best. Tara. She was so awesome. It was very nice that she spoke to you for this.

Yeah, she's awesome. Whenever I see her, she has a cute dog by her side. She's good. Good for her. I like her dogs. We'll end on that. I think we are all more American after this because we've been talking about true crime, one of the most American things there is. Love it. Okay, bye guys. Bye.