Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: Waco

Episode Date: March 7, 2023

In this week’s Flightless Bird, David Farrier sets out to Waco, Texas - taking a drive to visit the Branch Davidians compound, the old home of David Koresh. David is surprised to find that the strange offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventist church still exists and sits down to interview their new leader. Why are they still on the same grounds where so many terrible things happened? What do they believe? What do they think of Koresh? What is inside their church? And why did things go so crazy here 30 years ago, America essentially going after one man with an army of guns, helicopters, tear gas, 12 tanks, and almost 900 members of the FBI, ATF, Texas National Guard, the Army, the Waco police department, and the Texas Rangers. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now I'm the first to admit this show covers a lot of ground, from soft drinks to toilets, circumcision to flags. And what's becoming increasingly obvious to me is something incredibly obvious. America is very big and very confusing. I was reminded of this when I found myself in Texas recently for another episode of Flightless Bird. I'd wound up in Waco, and coming from New Zealand,

there's only one thing I knew about Waco. The cult actually called or known as the Branch Davidians is an offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. This year marks 30 years since the Waco siege, when federal officers, law enforcement, and the military raided the compound occupied by the Branch Davidians. It didn't go well. The Branch Davidians had guns up the wazoo and fought back, leading to a 51-day siege which saw 82 church members, or cult members, killed, along with four ATF agents. Bullets flew back and forth, shit blew up, and shit caught fire. And now I've found myself in Waco, where I got to thinking, what happened to the Branch Davidians after all that went down? Do they still exist? What are

they doing now if they do? And so I opened up Google Maps, typed in Branch Davidian compound, and got a location. What else was there to do but take a look? So grab your nearest gun, Bible, and multiple wives, and get ready for things to get weird, because this is in Waco, there were two things that stood out as topics. One of them was this one, which I decided on. And the other one was Magnolia. I wish you had yeah what let's end this episode i don't want to do this episode anymore can you explain to me magnolia kitchen

or the empire it's these two reality stars that won a competition and now okay chip and joanna gains chip and joanna you talk about this like they're best friends yeah chip and joanna i know them okay i mean i don't but i want to but they I know them. I mean, I don't, but I want to. But they are America's darlings? Yeah. I don't think it's Magnolia Kitchen. I know nothing. Magnolia...

And don't say Magnolia Bakery. That's not what it is. That's something else. Yeah, that's a bakery. Magnolia Market? Magnolia Network? It's just Magnolia. What is it?

It's this couple, and they have all these cute kids. They had a show on HGTV. What's HGTV? Oh, my God. Hey, I'm learning. I'm here to learn. Is it like a home renovation vibe? Okay.

The whole channel is home stuff. Okay. It's a great channel. And what made them cut through? Because obviously they're huge. Because they, from what I understand, they've transformed waco into this whole other thing exactly yeah so they had just this regular show and they renovated houses they have a great aesthetic it's very like farmhouse american okay all american yeah and it's very pleasing to most people it It draws in a lot of audience, a big

old audience. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. But then they show their kids. So I think that's a thing that also drew a lot of people in as, oh, this kind of picture perfect family and they go. And he's like, you know, the muscly man who tears down the house. He does like construction and she designs. Oh, what a perfect union. What a perfect partnership. And they're beautiful. Okay. Everyone loves beauty.

Well, everyone, because when I went to the Dr. Pepper Museum, the Dr. Pepper Museum said since they've moved into town, the foot traffic to the Dr. Pepper Museum is through the roof because just because everyone's coming to town for them. So my point is i'm sorry because i know you would have quite liked that topic so maybe i'll go back and do them it did seem it's a bit culty as well though isn't it i don't want to draw comparisons between the branch davidians and please don't but like people love magnolia so it's that family unit man and woman

cute kids i'll build the house i'll pop the kitchen in. Boom. Yeah. I don't want to say they're culty. No, I mean, they're definitely not culty, but I was just thinking there's two things in this town that kind of define it for me, or three, if you include the Dr. Pepper Museum. You've got Waco and sort of the Branch Davidian compound, and then you've got Magnolia. I mean, I'll be honest. When I first hear Waco, for me, the very first thought is Chip and Joanna. You're right, Chip and Joanna. And then very quickly, I go to the cult because all their renovation is in Waco, I think, or surrounding areas.

Yeah. Maybe I can go back there and do an episode on them at some point. Yeah. But as far as today's episode about the Branch Davidians. Taylor Kitsch. Yeah. What? Taylor Kitsch What? Taylor Kitsch played Koresh Oh, I still haven't seen it

It's good One of the Culkin brothers too was in it Where can I watch this documentary That I probably should have watched before It's not a doc It's a series Okay, that explains why those people are in it It's getting exciting

Remember how you're a documentarian And you should know what a doc is? Yeah, I forget sometimes about these things. Sure. Okay, so just to set the stage, what are your thoughts on cults in general? Are you pro, anti? Have you been a member of one? Do you have any family in them? Okay, I'm going to go on record saying I'm anti-cult.

Okay. Good to point that out. However. Same. I'm anti-cult. Okay. Good to point that out. However, I do believe that I have been involved in cult-like systems. Yeah, right. That aren't cult. Cult adjacent. Cult adjacent.

Soul cycle. Correct. Yeah. Also UCB. I mean, these are things I love, so I'm not dissing them, but they have cult-like qualities. Although, can we define it? This is like sandwiches. We need to define a cult. Yeah, my understanding of a cult is where primarily you've got to have one person up top that is telling everyone what to do. So that's super important. One leader that has mental and physical control over you. Oh, okay. So it's a stretch.

But SoulCycle, it's that idea of when a whole lot of people get together and are so obsessed and all starting to work in unison. Like groupthink. Yeah, groupthink. And I come from a church background, so that's a bit culty in parts. So you've got your main guy that you're all listening to and a certain control over you. And certainly in LA, I feel like there's cults all around us all the time that we don't even clock probably yeah okay I like the definition that there's one or maybe two people controlling

yeah it's really defined so I'm gonna take UCB off of that table because that's not the case however it's still that mentality of everyone kind of speaks the same language it's group think you're obsessed with it you'll defend it till the end it becomes part of your identity yeah it becomes everything you are and then becomes really hard to leave yeah and inevitably it's a male leader usually right because that's males want power and they always end up having sex with everyone and there's always right now do we think these men start the cult with that knowledge? Yeah, I wonder. My feeling as a man is that you would maybe get into it thinking you were doing some good. But then as you figure out that you do have all this control and people idolize you, inevitably you just end up wanting to have sex with everyone.

Horrific. Men are so basic. We are real real basic but it's an amazing thing it's not just about money inevitably there'll always be some sort of sexual thing it's so gross and basic if you had a cult what would you call it i mean i'm kind of annoyed that these guys are called the branch davidians because that's like what davidians it's like my name's in there. I think that's kind of cool. Oh, I didn't even get that. Yeah, so I always thought naively until this episode that it was Drividians.

I've pronounced it that way my whole life, but it's yeah, Davidians. Okay. They love David. We'll get into that in the doc, but I'd probably just join these guys. You have no interest in starting your own. No, I think these guys have modeled a good system. If I had a call, my minions would be called Monions. I love when you amuse yourself.

I love this. Would be called Lilypads. Lilypads. Or Monion. I mean, now I like both. What's the Lilypad? Lily's my middle name. Oh, Lily's your middle name.

And my last name's Padman. Oh, I get it.'s really nice i love that for you and what would you get sounds nature-based but i actually don't care about nature so i'll lure people in thinking it's yeah not environmentally sound at all yeah yeah what would you what would your focus be like what would you want to them to do would you actually want to help them or do you just want them to kind of enable you to become more and more powerful? I'd start off wanting to help. Fashion advice. Okay, that's cool. And then ultimately I would get drunk on power. You would. You'd end up fucking everyone in there. Well, with that in mind, let's trundle off to Waco, Texas. Great. And my journey into Branch Davidian life. It's a 30-minute drive to the

Branch Davidian compound from my current location, Buc-ee's. Buc-ee's is like no other petrol station I've ever encountered. Sorry, you call them gas stations in America. Buc-ee's is a gas station like I've never encountered before. For one thing, it's huge, featuring a giant convenience store which sells homemade fudge and fresh barbecue brisket, which staff yell about when it's cooked. Fresh chopped brisket on the board! Most importantly, the gas station also boasts the cleanest bathrooms in America,

with limited gaps in their cubicles. I'll return to Bucky's for a future episode, but this is the Waco episode, and I needed to get to Waco. How many gunshots did you hear? It was quite a few. You know, I couldn't really say how many it was, but he knew it was something that wasn't normal.

I've always been sort of fascinated with what kicked off back on February 28th, 1993. It was a combination of very American topics, religion, guns, freedom, and the government. A melting pot of chaos that boiled over and left America and the world dumbstruck. This morning, investigators began sifting through the embers of the Waco compound, searching for the bodies

of more than 80 cult members believed killed in the fire. In short, the Branch Davidians were a very culty church, led by a man called David Koresh. David and the Branch Davidians liked guns, and had stockpiled over 300 of them. They were into the apocalypse and thought the end of the world was on its way, and they had to be ready. Knowing about all the guns, the ATF, which I've just learned stands for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, raided the Branch Davidian compound with a warrant for David's arrest. The ATF expected guns and resistance, but they didn't expect 300 guns and this much resistance. The whole raid was a bungled mess that day. It's still unclear who fired first,

but the FBI had to be called in, and it led to a 51-day standoff. On day one, six Branch Davidians were killed. On the final day of the siege, there was a massive fire, and 76 of them were killed, including David Koresh. It's hard to get across the scale of the raid, which was more like a small war. America essentially going after one citizen with an army of guns, helicopters, tear gas, 12 tanks, and almost 900 members of the FBI, ATF, Texas National Guard, the Army, the Waco Police police department and the Texas Rangers. With all that in mind, I felt nervous as I drove down the gravel road leading to the compound's entrance. I feel isolated, passing a dead wild pig on the way that had been hit by a car. I'm surrounded by nothing but green fields and a few trees.

But the fact the compound is listed as a location on Google Maps in the first place somehow makes me feel more calm. I don't even know what's there anymore, if any branch Davidians remain. Finally, I reach a big gate. It's open and covered in signs, including one which just says, Enter at your own risk. We will not be held responsible for any injuries or damages

to your person or your family. I'm not sure if this sign is just America being America or if I should actually be worried, but the gate's wide open and so I drive in. I mean, what cult doesn't want more members, right? I park in a small gravel parking area

and as I walk towards the first building I see, a car slowly ambles towards me. When I'm nervous, I tend to ramble. Hey, how are you? Am I able to walk? I'm from New Zealand. I didn't even know where I... It's nice to meet you. I'm David. Nice to see you. That's cool. We had some people from New Zealand, Australia here. You know that, right? Oh, really? And we're part of this. That's cool. We had some people from New Zealand, Australia here. You know that. Oh, really?

We're part of this. The woman in the car is really friendly, and she tells me there were some Kiwi members of the Branch Davidians back then and says I'm more than welcome here. She says I can visit the church, which doubles as a kind of museum to the raid. She points at a house and says I should go talk to a man called Charles. So I go over to the house, knock on the door, and meet Charles. Could you just introduce yourself and what you do here?

Yes, my name is Charles Pace. I'm the manager of Branch Davidian Memorial Park and Church. Charles Pace is in a wheelchair, and he's got a week's worth of stubble on his face. He tells me he's been a Branch Davidian since 1973 and an ordained minister since 1980, and that yes, the Branch Davidians still exist and are still here. One of his eyes is glazed over, and as he looks at me through the other eye, the first thing he tells me is that I remind him of another David. You look very much like David Koresh. You have the glasses, the eyes, the nose, and the beard, and the hair. Awesome. I'm not so sure it is awesome. Koresh was big into polygamy, and some former Branch Davidians say he fathered at least 15 children with various women,

some of them underage, at the compound. He was obsessed with the apocalypse and had a giant level of control over church members. And overall, I'm not sure I love the comparison. Well, we are believers in Jesus Christ as our Messiah, our creator and redeemer, but we have learned that his new name is Branch, And Branch in Hebrew means son or daughter. We have a 364-day calendar that Enoch used to keep. So we go by that, but we do keep the Feast of the Lord on the days of the different months. For some context, there would be no Branch Davidians without the Seventh-day Adventist Church, a denomination of Christianity. Seventh-day Adventist Church, a denomination of Christianity.

Seventh-day Adventists first appeared 160 years ago in Michigan. Starting with about 3,000 members, today there are about 19 million of them worldwide. And the Seventh-day Adventists, with whom their name has been associated, this sect has disavowed any connection with these folks, is that correct? Yes, indeed. As I mentioned at the top of the live shot, they broke away from the Seventh-day Adventist church. It is an offshoot, but it is not in any way associated

with that well-known organization. Back in 1935, there was a spinoff from the Seventh-day Adventists who called themselves the Davidians. Two years later, when the founder died, there was a battle for power. And that's when another spinoff happened, the Branch Davidians. The Branch Davidians loved the name David, mainly King David from the

Bible. They thought the apocalypse was coming very, very soon, and that would lead to an entire kingdom of Davids, which to be honest, sounded pretty good to me. Then in 1981, another David came along. David Koresh. David decided he wanted to be the leader of the Branch Davidians, which was being led at the time by a man called George Rodin. David decided to sleep with George's mum, which George was pretty annoyed about. Threatened by David, George then tried to raise a corpse from the dead to prove his leadership skills, but that didn't work. You can't raise a corpse from the dead. David was gaining power and followers and started a third spin-off, confusingly named the Davidian

Branch Davidian Seventh-day Adventist Association. Things got increasingly intense between the two men and all came to a head in 1987 when there was a shootout between George and David. I guess somehow David won because he became the new leader of the Branch Davidians and George went to prison. George would later go on to whack a man in the head with a hatchet, killing him, and he ended up in a mental asylum. Told you it got weird. I'm curious about what the Branch Davidian in front of me thinks about the religion today and David Koresh now. His answer was very complicated, but essentially he thinks David Koresh did a bunch of bad stuff in order to fulfill a prophecy.

I see him as a martyr. I see him as a man that believed that he was actually called of God to take men's wives to become an apostate. Because we never believed in polygamy. We never believed in having guns, but he had to become an apostate. Because we never believed in polygamy. We never believed in having guns, but he had to become an apostate. All of David's guns and wives, mainly the guns, led to the government taking an interest. They wanted to make David Koresh the scapegoat. So they started demonizing him on the media, saying he's raping the women and molesting the children. But he was willing because he knew that they were going to massacre him. He knew it from the prophecy. God had to raise an army. The government had to come

in here because that's what the prophecy says. They had to have a darn good reason to come here to slaughter all these people. There's very little doubt that what took place here 30 years ago had some major implications for the man in front of me and for America. Because as more information about how the siege went down came to light, many began to see it as a massive overreach by the government and law enforcement. I've been watching old clips from the time, and even the neighbours back then were a bit bamboozled. Despite the tragedy, Xander says he doesn't mind having the cult members as neighbours. If they mind their own business and we mind our own, they've got a right to be there too.

And so for many, Waco showed that maybe the government had too much power. It gave various militia groups the evidence that proved what they already thought, that the government was prepared to attack its own citizens with tear gas, guns and tanks. And as I talked to Charles Pace, I realised that what happened at Waco has sent him down a pretty big rabbit hole. So God orchestrated this to get people's attention worldwide on what David Koresh had done. But now they're finding out why he did it. It was for the children's sake. And we see that's what's bringing down the cabal. It's what they've done, these crimes against humanity. Apparently, David Koresh wanted to bring down the cabal. It's what they've done, these crimes against humanity. Apparently, David Koresh wanted to bring down the cabal.

Because apparently Koresh thought that his old nemesis, the hatchet-throwing George Rodin, had used his time as Branch Davidian leader to turn the site into some kind of human trafficking hotspot in cahoots with the likes of Bill Clinton and Jeffrey Epstein. Holding the women and children hostage and using them as sex slaves for the clients that they had who were senators, lawyers, judges, businessmen,

not only in the Waco area but from all over the country and possibly all over the world because I believe Jeffrey Epstein had a hand in this as well. He was in the sidelines giving them addresses where they could sell the women and children internationally. So what David Koresh found was a cache of child pornography pictures and tapes that he found here on the property when he came back. And he was basically saying, this is what George Roden ended up doing. He was recruited by these people,

and he turned the church property into a gun running, gun manufacturing, human trafficking, you know, child pornography. It all gets quite intense. I've cut this whole conversation down quite a lot. Well, the adrenochrome is a hormone that comes out of the adrenal glands of these children that are scared to death or raped to death. They have to be completely scared. What they end up doing, because it's a satanic ritual, is they, you know, eat them. And so basically what I'm being told, if I understand it right, is that the death of David Koresh did two things. Number one, it fulfilled a prophecy, which was a good thing for the Branch Davidians, but it also allowed the government to cover up

some kind of child porn ring. Simple. So they committed a crime against humanity to cover their crimes against humanity here at Mount Carmel. Because he was going to expose them. He was going to tell everything that he found and they didn't want him to. So they demonized him and murdered him. They didn't know who knew about it and who didn't, so they killed them all.

And they not only burned the place down, made sure that the fire trucks didn't come and put it out because they wanted it all completely burned down. They bulldozed it within a week. So yeah, pretty intense. Did you follow any of that? Yeah, but this is a hard one because every other second I want to talk. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. Okay, so from the top. Yeah, Bucky's. Bucky's.

top. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. Okay, so from the top. Yeah. Buc-ee's. Buc-ee's. You were making some faces during the documentary. So Buc-ee's is not a gas station. What is it? It's a store. I thought it started as a gas station and then got bigger. It's like

they kept expanding but maybe it was never there. Maybe. Rob, look up the origin. Maybe it started as a gas station. But you wouldn't call it a gas station now. It's a convenience store. Travel centers is what they call themselves. A travel center.

Okay. It was amazing. No, it's cool. I mean, I loved it. Well, we go way back with Buc-ee's. Rob, me, Dax, and Jess, we drove from Austin to Dallas. This is like one of our first forays into live shows. And we drove by a Buc-ee's like one of our first forays into live shows.

And we drove by a Bucky's. None of us knew about Bucky's. What is this place? So we were pretty intrigued. Jess said it in a really funny way. And then we just were making them say it over and over and over again. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is incredible. They've got that beaver as a mascot.

It's huge in there. There's like a deli in there. They're yelling things. I mean, I loved it. And I bought some really, I made myself a bit sick, actually. I bought a big tub of fudge. And I ate it on the way back from Waco. And I almost needed to vomit.

That's so surprising that that happened to you. I'm so shocked. You normally have such good willpower against sugar. Yeah, no, it was amazing. So, okay. So it's a store. So the guy that opened it, his grandparents owned a gas station. So he's got gas station roots.

Gas station adjacent. I'm not completely mad. Okay. But it's more store than gas station. I would say I think so. I don't know that they would love to be referred to as a gas station. Okay. Okay, Branch Davidians.

Yeah. Well, how do you feel about the conversation I'm having with the leader so far? He's a pretty intense guy. A lot of ideas bouncing around in that noggin. A lot of ideas. I feel real angry. I didn't know adrenochrome went way back. of starts in a bit of reality. And as you talk, things just spiral into a whole other place. And it's also a dissonance. He was so nice. He was in a wheelchair. We just sat out on his porch and chatted. And he was nice, but he was also essentially, from what I understood, and he was really confusing to sort of understand his logic, but he doesn't belittle David Koresh because all the bad stuff Koresh did was basically part of God's master plan. And so he kind of gets let off the hook.

He had to be a martyr. And so ultimately what he did is sort of good because everything had to happen that did happen. He's not belittling him at all. And I hear that as he still considers him a big good part. You're right. And when you go in there, there is a big monument and his name's up on there and some of the other leaders. And you're also on the grounds where this raid happened. And it was huge. I didn't clock the size of the whole thing. Like, tanks were sent in. Hundreds and hundreds of agents. I mean, that's the interesting thing as well, because David Koresh was clearly a terrible person. But also the way it was handled was also so out of control and insane and you know i know it's got killed oh god i mean this is a slippery topic honestly chaos all around and i also know so little about the context of all this stuff yeah i think if they knew that he had all those weapons which they did right by the time the raid happened they had intel

you had a lot of weapons yeah i think they were so surprised by the number but they needed to do something or did they no they did there's kids and all these women it is illegal it's illegal in america to have multiple wives yeah so regardless of what else he's doing he's breaking the law there oh there's plenty of reasons to get involved there was a lot of there was um former members Yeah. So regardless of what else he's doing, he's breaking the law there. Oh, there's plenty of reasons to get involved. There was a lot of, there was former members had come out by that point and there were stories of some of his wives were underage. Yes. There was the guns.

There was all that stuff. Exactly. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Flightless Bird is brought to you by Indeed. Now what's better than finding quality candidates? It's finding them instantly. And for a powerful hiring partner, you need Indeed. Indeed is the hiring platform where you can attract, interview, and hire all in the one place. Don't spend hours on multiple job sites looking for candidates with

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Helix is offering up to 20% off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners. Just go to helixsleep.com slash bird. This is their best offer yet, and it won't last long. With Helix, better sleep starts now. I am not normally one to defend law enforcement, but I'm going to do it here. If you know that you're walking into a scenario where there's a cult leader with 300 guns, you better come prepared with a whole bunch of shit. You have to.

The Branch Davidians put the law enforcement in that position, in my opinion. They can't just assume they're not going to use their 300 guns. No, totally. I'd love to see a scenario play out where the raid went smoothly. How would it? Because the thing is so crazy. I mean, I just don't think they expected that many guns to be that embedded. I mean, what do you do with a cult leader, a horrible man who has a whole lot of kids,

and they're all brainwashed? How do you safely injure a compound and get them out? And I think no one expected it to just get quite to go on for over a month is so mad. But I don't know what the scenario would look like where it was done slickly. Also, the year before, because this was 93, the year before had been Ruby Ridge, which was this other weird thing. So you had these two events happen where everything was filmed. It was all in the news. And I guess the whole of America was thinking, yeah, how do you deal with someone who is just dug in when there's a police pursuit, right?

It's like, do you pursue someone in a car and there might end up being some horrible crash? Or do you let them go and just let them drive off safely? How hard do you go? Right. And it depends on what's happening in that car totally 100 if a child is being kidnapped in that car i want them to chase that car down and help but then yeah then you what someone would say is and then they killed the kid totally yeah does the chase itself make the situation even worse and that's like a debate that I feel is happening in every, it's happening in New Zealand, it's happening in America,

like when do you just stop? I think there's a rule here in America now, some states, once the chase escalates, you've got to back off. Yeah, so there's like, it's just such an interesting way to think about how to handle things. Yeah. It's so tricky because you're dealing with irrational people here and brainwashed people. And that's

a very deep psychological pursuit. It's not like you're chasing you down the street. You'd probably stop. You're normal for the most part. I'd like to think I probably would. Yeah. Thanks so much for really giving me. But these are not people in that headspace. So you can't really think of it in the same way. I don't know. No, 100%. I mean, you can't really think of it in the same way. I don't know. No, 100%. I mean, I don't know how you negotiate with the cults. It seems like a difficult job. And yeah, they obviously didn't manage to negotiate.

Did they try? I think they tried. There was negotiations the whole way through. They were trying to get Koresh to let cult members out. Right. And he'd back off. He'd say he was going to, then he wouldn't. There was a lot of investigations into who fired first.

The general agreed thing is that basically David Koresh started fires inside and they all basically self-destructed at the end of the day. They shot each other to put themselves out of their misery because the fire had started. It all got pretty bleak. There was like a kid that was stabbed. It was all awful. But the weird thing is I was thinking all this as I was out of that misery because the fire had started. It all got pretty bleak. There was like a kid that was stabbed. It was all awful. But the weird thing is I was thinking all this as I was on this, because these are the same grounds where all this happened. So, yeah, it was weird.

How did you feel about being compared? That made me feel awful. It felt pretty icky. Yeah, I'm not a big David Koresh fan, and that felt bad. But he was just being nice. It's like someone saying someone else saying oh you remind me of like brad pitt you're so handsome or something but he was doing that with david koresh you know which for me was not i'm not i wasn't happy did he know him

personally like was he part of no no no there was an overlap there so it's not like he was buddies but his teaching i was gonna ask is the reason his eye because he got shot oh no well no that's the thing i was wondering about because he was he'd obviously physically been through some stuff and i was wondering the whole time an awkward thing to bring like were you here during the siege but he wasn't he came in after he was converted by the siege he joined was just he'd always been into one of the offsets of the seventhventh-day Adventists and when he sort of heard about all this happening. And some people, when they saw what happened, did side in a way with the cult, but just because of the overreach. There's this idea of the overreach of the government. This anti-government establishment.

So certain people reacted to that. And he's a certain sort of person. He's also a certain sort of person that believes that politicians are eating babies and stuff like that. Anyway, should we spend some more time with him? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe Charles senses me turning out a bit from the conspiracy theory stuff, but he tells me he has some work to do and urges me to go and check out that church where he gives a sermon every Sunday.

He points to a building in the distance. This is what I teach here at Mount Carmel, and people come, two to three hundred a week, and I get to tell them about David Koresh. Charles says the church doubles as a kind of museum and says I can learn more about the truth of the 1993 siege. And so I leave Charles's house and walk around the grounds a little. I see a giant marble memorial with the names of all the leaders I've been learning about. There's the founder of the Seventh Day Adventists, there's the founder of the first spinoff, the Davidians, and then the founder of the second spinoff, the Branch Davidians. And there's David Kresh's name, too. Next to that big monument of leaders is a slightly smaller one, listing the names of those who died here over that

51-day period. I continue down a gravel road towards the church. This is a new building, most of what existed in 1993 burnt down. It's strange to imagine this whole place on fire, branch Davidians hiding in buildings and burning in underground bunkers. Just outside the church is a hole in the concrete that goes down to the ground, and there's a sign next to it that just says, the vault area where the mothers and their children were gassed to death. And yeah, mothers and kids died here. Some is two years old. I walk over to a swampy kind of area,

and a mangled pieces of mostly buried bus poke out. This place just feels, I mean,'s an overused word but surreal. Just standing at the old pool looking in, full of very green water at the bottom. It's really quiet. I approached the church which looks unassuming, just a bog-standard small wooden church. The door to the church here says to branch the Lord our righteousness. It's a flagpole outside the church. It's got a Trump flag waving in the wind. I walk through the doors and discover I'm not the only visitor here today. Gary and his wife are also visiting for the first time. Did you guys

know anything about what this place is? Like what does this place represent to you? Well we knew about the history that's why we came by. My family is from Waxahachie which is about 60 miles away and I've never been here. I've actually not been here since about 30 years around when this happened. This is like number 20 on the top 60 things to do in Waco. So we came by and we were curious and, you know, sometimes you wonder about our government. And I remember way back then the government took a lot of criticism. And when you see that memorial over there, to me, the chilling thing is how many kids were under 10. I think it said 28 were 10 and under. So obviously adults were making their decision. And their decision was their life was ended prematurely. What could those kids have done

had they lived? We start looking around the church. There's a stage, a pulpit, and a projector. Normal church stuff. A bible sits on a chair. But all around the walls, a chaotic assortment of images taped to the wall. Texts and slogans capturing the paranoia, conspiracy, and beliefs that endure here. I spot a couple of Trump 2020 signs and a few shirts for sale. Tonally, it's all over the show. There are chilling photos of buildings on fire, and then a bunch of postcards for sale showing David Koresh loading a rifle, a cheery font proclaiming, I will meet you at my door anytime.

It's by far the strangest church I've ever been in. Well, I like history, so this is like a museum feel. And I don't remember, So these pictures are very interesting. So you see the compound intact. Then you see the fire and then you see more and then you see the end like about Trump was about the fake news stuff. And he's kind of speaking to that too, because New York Times or Washington Post says something that doesn't mean it's gospel because they have their politics behind it too. So I just think it really goes back to being a critical thinker, loving your country, but just not buying everything as they say, hook, line, and sinker. And what was it like being in America?

Because I was in New Zealand and tiny when that was happening. I was a kid. What was it like hearing that on the news? And what do you remember feeling then? Well, because I have Texas roots, it gave me more interest. And I'm an educator, a college professor. And at that time, we talked about it in my college course. I had a business course, and it was just really what the government could do.

And one thing we try to do with college students is get them to think critically. So one group will tell you something, but what is their bias? Try to get another opinion. We know the Clinton administration was in office, so Republicans had issues there. And then Texas is a big gun state, and a big part of this was they had firearms. I leave the church and walk out into the sunlight. The grounds here are sprawling, but I'm not quite sure what this land is used for. A few cows here, a tractor in the grass. Doesn't feel like there's a lot being done with this land.

A pickup truck slowly makes its way past me. I go over and say hello. I glance into the back seat and see a compound bow resting there. There's a bunch of loose ammunition next to the driver. But like the woman I first met here, the man is super friendly. Hey, what are you shooting with those arrows? What are you hunting around here? I just target practice.

I got a flintlock rifle here too I shoot. I guess this is the perfect area for target practice. It's quiet, empty, and the FBI lost interest decades ago. What was your name, sir? Yeah, Jim. Jim, it's right, I'm David. I'm a neighbor. I'm a neighbor.

I live a half a mile from here and I was 41 years old at the time. So you are not a branch Davidian yourself? Jim tells me his friend was the first to die in the raid. I had two friends that lived here. I didn't know Koresh and all the other people. I knew two fellows, and their names were Jones, a Perry Jones and a David Jones. And Perry Jones was the elder of the building. He was kind of a witness to everything.

Perry Jones was the first casualty on February 28th. Perry Jones went to the front door, he opened it, and they shot him. He was the first victim. It's a strange conversation to be having on a nice, sunny, warm day. And while Jim keeps telling me he has to go and pick up his wife and can't talk to me much longer, he just keeps on talking. And as I'm getting used to today, things take on a slightly conspiratorial tone. I'm shooting rifle matches. I'm shooting four rifle matches a week. At those matches, some of the Texas Highway Patrol would show up. Well, they found out that I live near here. One of them said, hey, man, I have my picture made during the fire. He said, I'm going to bring it

and let you look at it. Well, the next match, he shows up and there's an 8x10 picture of him. He's standing out in the double E road. And behind him is a building that's pretty well ashes and burning. But in those, backed up to those ashes, is two very large U-Haul trucks. And you can see men kind of like in hazmat suits. They're kind of pulling things out of the back of those vans. He said, do you know what that is? I said, well, no, I don't.

He says, you ever hear of body laundering? I said, no. He said, that's where they take bodies from one crime scene and add them to another. Then another DPS officer, he said, I was there during the fire too. He said, I personally witnessed two dump trucks show up. One had rifles, one had ammunition, and went to two separate locations in the fire

and dumped them. Yeah, I could go into a lot more, but I'm not going to because it's the 30th anniversary is coming. And anyway, it's kind of sketchy. But anyway. You've been so generous. Go and pick up your wife.

I think I really appreciate you stopping with me. You're welcome. Jim drives off. And I think it's probably about time for me to drive off too. I'm sort of blown away that after all that's happened here, the Branch Davidians still exist. Their start seems to be that David Kores, the Branch Davidians still exist. Their start seems to be that David Koresh said and did some bad things, but that was so he could become a martyr

and see one of their prophecies come true, which would mean God would come back sooner. All totally normal stuff. On my way out, I pass Charles again. He's wheeled out into a small balcony to give me a wave goodbye. What does America feel like to you? Is it a good place? Is it a bad place? Well, what makes it good is that there's a reawakening going on with the patriots. And they want to take back the republic under God. And they want to bring down the cabal or the deep state. Yes, it's a good place.

What do you think is the biggest misconception people have about this place, the memorial? They believe we're a cult, but I never worshipped David Koresh. We worshipped the son of God whose name is Branch in Hebrew. The Branch Davidians, here to stay, apparently. Fans of Branch, fans of the name David.

The man was... I get choked up every time I talk about it. He was standing up for God's children, the grown-ups as well as the young ones, because this cancel culture wants to get rid of everyone that believes in a sovereign God. I leave Charles to his day. He's upset, and he has this week's sermon to prepare. What happened here inspired countless TV shows, documentaries, books, and investigations. It changed the way lots of America thought about their government

and what the boundary is between church and cults. There's a lot of information and confusion when it comes to exactly what went down here over those 51 days back in 1993, and that's led to a whole lot of baseless conspiracy theories. But what do you expect when no one can even decide who fired the first shot 30 years ago? I personally think Brazilian band Sepultura managed to sum it up the best in a song they wrote about the Waco siege, as found in one of their best records, 1993's Chaos A.D. Apocalyptic visions went through my head, here today, gone tomorrow, it's all insane,

they mumble, before breaking into some screaming, probably warranted given the subject matter. Terror raids the land. To ashes will be sent. In the name of God, lives cast away. In the name of God, we're all dead. I keep driving. Driving away from this very strange part of America's story. So, yeah, quite a trip.

Woof. And yes, you are correct. He was saying that cancel culture was the thing that was David Koresh's downfall, which is just objectively kind of funny. It's funny until you let it sink in that that's a real person yeah who really believes these things and there are many yeah it felt rough it felt pretty bleak that is so upsetting well he preaches the two to three hundred people a week i feel like he was exaggerating the number. That doesn't seem possible, Dave.

But yeah, it was a really weird place to be. The atmosphere of the place was very quiet. There wasn't even really any birdsong or anything like that. It was all very quiet. And things like that pool that was in complete disrepair, bits of a bus sticking up from under the grass that had been buried, little hints of what was there before. And then when you go into the church, which just has images of the fire and all the FBI raid photos on the walls.

It's just a lot to take in. And he's there just being like, yeah, you know, Koresh was all right. He was more than saying he's all right. He was crying over him. And people don't often cry. So to have someone cry about this, it is a lot. Ultimately, what it boils down to is David Koresh, terrible human, pretty weird that Branch Davidians still even are happy to call themselves Branch Davidians. Most people would be like, oh, that got a bit out of hand.

Let's drop it. But their narrative is they got a bit out of hand because of the government. Their narrative is that it got a bit out of hand because of the government. I mean, that's what sucks, that you've got a cult leader and all these kids and young people drawn in who are then stuck there. I know. That can't get away. And then due to bad communication, the raid didn't go great and it all just escalated into horrificness. And then everyone's just embedded in their beliefs even more. And I mean, the kid part is so devastating.

It's horrific. Yeah. I mean, it's literally they were trapped in there like David wouldn't let them leave. Yeah. And they just left in there to die in flames. And they aren't choosing any of these decisions. And one thing I do agree with the professor, that I don't think you should just blindly believe what you're reading, what you've been told, even if it's from something you trust. It's nice to have multiple sources.

I sign on to that. But the mental gymnastics that it is taking them to make this sound good and plausible and worth it. Leaps and le Yeah, leaps. Yes. Leaps and leaps and leaps. It's the government's fault, but also he knew it. He was supposed to die all along because it was the prophecy, but also it was the government's fault,

even though they planned this for the government. Like, what? It was one. I mean, what I played there, we talked for a couple of hours, and what I played was like the most distilled version, the loops and the convoluted storytelling to try and justify what had happened. And it's still being okay to be part of that particular religion or AKA cult. It's a strange thing to listen to.

Yeah. And it is a reminder that people, regardless of your ideology, you need other people. They want companions. That's how these cults happen. It's a fast track into friendship, really, and companionship. Well, it's community. Yeah. It's what we all want, right?

Fine line between community and cult. Yeah. And it's funny because everyone I met, honestly, people driving through, I didn't meet anyone there who was like, yeah, this is fucking crazy. Everyone had slightly bought into it or had friends that were involved and all had this conspiratorial extra bodies were being dumped or moved or various things set up. Everything around Mount Carmel just can't get away from all that shit. I didn't even understand that rationale. Why would the government be bringing in more bodies if the government's in trouble in the first place for having all these

people dead at the end of it i'm not even going to try and pretend to answer the logic of any of that yeah they're claiming to be victims of the government killing them but also the government's planning bodies i think i think extra bodies just to make it look worse. But the government wouldn't want it to look worse. That plays up more to the sympathy of the cult. Yeah. Yeah. Moving bodies around to make it. Or they're trying to make David look more evil.

More evil, like where he set the fire and move more bodies towards the compound or something. Oh, my God. Something like that. The logic breaks down a little bit. Quickly. I mean The logic breaks down a little bit. Quickly. I mean, everything breaks down. Yeah, I think when you end up talking to someone that's talking about people eating babies,

the logic's mostly gone. So yeah, that was the uplifting Waco episode. That was heavy. But we'll go back for Magnolia, which will be a different tone. That'll be nice. And maybe Bucky's. Yeah.

I don't like, but I am fascinated by these really specific pockets that exist. I like that you can drive in and have a chat to them. It's an interesting thing. If that had happened in my particular cult, I would definitely drop it. I'd be like, it's time to move on. I'm going to do something else. If that happens to the Monions.

It's going to strain our friendship, I think. It'll be difficult. It'll be difficult. We don't think we can come back from that. It's going to strain our friendship, I think. It'll be difficult. It'll be difficult. We don't think we can come back from that. It'd be hard. I mean, look, I don't foresee how this is going to happen in a fashion cult, but you never know. No, you never know. Give your fashion cult a few years and you never know where it's going to end up. But yeah, I like to think maybe in this episode I've become less American because I don't want to think it made me more American because it makes you feel like then I'm maybe into cults or something. No, but I think you learned about a big American incident. So in

some ways that makes you more American. I'm more American. Yeah. I'm going to give you some points. Thank you. We will have a less death involved episode next time. It was good. I didn't know a lot of that stuff. Great. So that was. It was a trip. Yeah. All right. Thanks guys. Well, have a great day.

Good luck with your cult. All right. We're rolling on important add-ons. Okay. Just so everyone knows, we wrapped this episode, moved on to record something completely different, did some ads.

And then I remembered I had something really important to say. Okay. About Waco? Yeah. Okay. I remembered I had something really important to say. Okay. About Waco? Yeah. Okay. I'm wearing cowboy boots today. You are? And I never wear cowboy boots.

No. And we're doing an episode on Waco. That's sim. Oh, this is a stretch. No, it's huge. So you looked down and saw your boots. Yeah. And said, Rob, open up the session again. We're going back in. Well, why don't you just march yourself into the branch of Davidian

and sign up. It's another ding, ding, ding because of my fashion cult. Oh my God, it's everywhere. Shut that session down, Rob. So if you want to join Monica's fashion cult, go follow her at ML Padman on Instagram. Thank you. I think you're a Monion. That was really good. They're good boots.