Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Flightless Bird: Waffle House

Episode Date: February 28, 2023

In this week’s Flightless Bird, David Farrier sets out to understand Waffle House, the much loved diner found scattered throughout the American south. What makes this chain so special, and what the heck is the Waffle House Index? David interviews Waffle House’s Njeri Boss about the magic of waffles and why it’s actually more about the hash browns. He also talks to photographer Micah Cash about his book Waffle House Vistas (https://bittersoutherner.com/) and why this generic shoebox restaurant is actually incredibly diverse and special. What does Hootie and the Blowfish and the Bloodhound Gang all have in common? Waffle House! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Flightless Bird is brought to you by BetterHelp. Now, when you're at your best, your tippity top, you can do great things. But sometimes life gets you bogged down and you may feel completely overwhelmed or like you're not showing up in a way that you want to. Everyone I talk to is really dealing with something. And so I've been recommending BetterHelp to a lot of people. Because why not? Just talk it out. Yeah, there's a lot to think about i think people's

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If you want to live a more empowered life, therapy can get you there. Visit betterhelp.com slash bird today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash bird. I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now, a while back on Flightless Bird, during the Diners episode, Monica talked about something I'd never heard of. When I was in high school, the Waffle House was the fight zone. That's where people would meet to fight. What? This is like an American movie. What? Friday night, after the movies, there's going to be a fight. Then everyone comes and

watches. I'm a baby. I was always like, I hate this. Apparently a diner called Waffle House doubled as some kind of secret fight club for teenagers. Before this, I'd never even heard of Waffle House. Something I've since come to learn is truly iconic in America. It is indeed marvelous. An irony-free zone where everything is beautiful and nothing hurts. Where everybody, regardless of race, creed, color, or degree of inebriation, is welcomed. Its warm yellow glow, a beacon of hope and salvation, inviting the hungry, the lost, the seriously hammered all across the South to come inside, a place of safety and nourishment. When Anthony Bourdain hit the Waffle House, he salivated over it. This is better than the French La Vie, man.

After talking about the Waffle House on CNN, Bourdain was invited on The Late Show, where all he could do was waffle on about Waffle House. More important than anything, I discovered the glories of the Waffle House. That's a rare local delicacy. This is, talk about exotica. I had never been. It's apparently a place you could go no matter how wrecked and obnoxious you are or how late

at night. They're nice to you. Clearly, this diner has a lot going for it, and millions of Americans agree. If you stacked all the sausage patties Waffle House served each day on top of each other, the sausage you stack would be four times the height of the Empire State Building. Each year it fries 25,000 miles worth of bacon strips, which is maybe less surprising when you factor in that Waffle House is open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. I imagine those extreme opening hours go some way to explaining why it can get occasionally raucous at Waffle House.

I wanted to know how this iconic place came to be, and what it means to America now. So, sidle up for some eggs and waffles, and decide how you want those hash browns, because this is the Waffle House episode. Flightless, flightless, flightless bird touchdown in America. I'm a flightless bird touchdown in America. I love Waffle House. There's something controversial I want to get out of the way at the top of this episode. Right.

And it's something I'm very self-conscious about. For this episode, I didn't go to Waffle House. I was going to ask you. And we just need to say it out the front because I know that's insane. Like, I know it's bonkers. It's pretty bad. But for some context about the show, we make this every week, right? Yeah. And every week, it's like a new documentary and new people.

And I think I was in somewhere in Texas, and I knew this Waffle House episode was happening. I'd interviewed some people for it already. And I looked on Google Maps. There's a Waffle House down the road. Great. This is where I can slip into the Waffle House, get my little dictaphone out, get the foley that I love getting wherever I go, all that stuff. I had a couple of hours spare on that day to do my Waffle House. I went back into the maps and I remembered that America is much bigger than New Zealand. And sometimes when you're looking at a

map of America on Google Maps, something that looks really close is actually like a three-hour drive away. And so the Waffle House wasn't down the road. It was really, really far. Wait, so you just looked at the map, you didn't map it? I put it in Waffle House. Yeah, it was my own incompetence using the map and forgetting that America is so big. But you know, it's crazy this show because we make one a week and every week we're sort of working on five at once that are all at different stages of production.

And so it sounds like I'm making excuses to myself. It does. And I am. It's a great episode coming up but I'm going to rely on you, Monica, as someone that's been to Waffle House to kind of inject that into the episode because I just can't bring it. That's fine. Elsa, I don't think that's America's fault that you can't bring it that's fine okay also i don't think

that's america's fault that you don't want to zoom in or out on your map or just click how many minutes yeah i could have done a lot of things differently when i was in la and i typed in waffle house it was clearly very far away i could see it was in a different state when i was in i was somewhere in texas i typed it in and it looked like it was kind of in the same state, so I'm like, that's just down the road. In the same state? But I forgot that the state is so big here, especially Texas. Texas is so big. I'm from New Zealand. We have five million people. We're tiny. I know. Okay. How long does it take to get from one side of New Zealand to the other? At some parts of the country, it just takes a couple of hours, and you're there. If you're at a skinny part of New Zealand, if you're at the top, it would take maybe on average, maybe, I've never done it, but coast to coast, maybe five or six hours in certain parts of the country and you're there and you're across.

Wow. The whole country. Top to bottom. A day and a half or something. Okay. Because we've got two islands, north and south. Right. I feel like driving from Auckland to Wellington is about maybe nine or ten hours.

Okay. But everything is doable. You can drive most places in a day, I would say, in New Zealand. You know, it's like, oh, I want to go to Hamilton. It's, you know, oh, we'll be there in a day. I want to go to Wellington. Oh, that'll be a day. Everything's a day.

In America, things are weeks sometimes. Well, not weeks. It's crazy out there. So anyway, that's why I didn't end up at a Waffle House. I had it planned. That's fine. But the production schedule really got me. I've been to a gajillion Waffle Houses.

And what's your vibe? Because the feeling, everyone I spoke to for my documentary, there's a love of this place. Huge love. It feels so nostalgic. It feels so nostalgic. It's so classic. Like when you think diner, that's what you think. Because I've seen photos of it, of this fable place. And everyone looks the same.

It's so simple. It is. You know what you're getting. You're not ever going to be disappointed. There's also Waffle House merchandise, which I find fascinating. You don't get McDonald's merch, do you? No. So that, to me, if it's got merch, it shows that there's the real love for a place.

Like kind of a cult around it. Yeah, completely. Yeah. I have a mug. I want a vintage Waffle House shirt from the 80s. You should try eBay.com. I think I have, but I'll keep looking. That's actually been a real danger for me being in America

because in New Zealand, I'd log into eBay, but shipping made it impossible. You just wouldn't do it. eBay in America is dangerous because it's got everything on there, doesn't it? It has a lot. It sounds like an ad for eBay. It does.

Maybe we should do an eBay episode. Sidebar, do you notice that in America, how much mail you're getting in the post? It has a lot. It sounds like an ad for eBay. It does. Maybe we should do an eBay episode. But no, it's wild. Sidebar, do you notice that in America, how much mail you're getting in the post? Oh, I mean, I have nothing to compare it to. Do you not get that much? No, it's insane. I called up my health insurance place because I'm sick to death of it and I want to switch to another one. Yeah.

I was on like the customer care line and I hung up before I finished the call because I was so annoyed at them. They weren't answering my questions. Sort of your MO is what you do. I wanted to know how much it would cost me if I had some sort of a shot, had some sort of emergency, and an ambulance picked me up and took me to a thing that was out of my HMO range or whatever. David, how many times? I was like, answer me. Answer me just how much.

And they say, we can't tell. I'm like, you've got to know how much. Is there a maximum? Is there a minimum? Am I going to be bankrupted? Tell me. Well, you'll have a deductible. But here's the problem. Why aren't either of you listening to me about this ever? PPO. You cannot get an HMO.

You know what I discovered? There's another thing called an EPO. It's in between an HMO. You know what I discovered? There's another thing called an EPO. Really? It's in between an HMO and a PPO. What is it? And you can, oh, look, this is another episode. Okay, that's separate. We'll talk about it. Anyway, my point is I hung up in anger because they wouldn't answer my question.

Okay. Since then, I've got three letters from that insurer saying, you called us. Do you have any questions? Call us back. I'm collecting mail from the insurer. I'm also collecting all the mail I get from credit card companies. Why are you collecting it? For an episode, because I want to physically show you how crazy this is. Listen, I don't need to. But every other day, I get a letter saying you've been pre-approved for this credit card. Yeah,

I know. Which again, leads me to another topic of this country wants me to get into debt so desperately. And I need to get into debt to build up credit apparently before I can move on in my life. What the? I didn't know that was American. They don't have that in New Zealand. In New Zealand, we are desperately trying to avoid debt at all costs. Well, no. Everyone's like, my credit score is no good.

So at the moment, I've got about 10 credit cards. I'm loading them all up in debt just so I get my credit score up. Yeah, I know. That is this weird catch-22. In order to up your credit score, you have to prove that you've paid off your credit cards. And using a credit card, technically, I guess you're in debt. But don't be in debt, though. I'm so in debt.

I've got 10 cards loaded up for the zoo. I don't think you understand. Every credit card app I get, I fill it in, get the new card, start spending. No, David, no. Yeah. Oh, my God. How do you think I afford these fancy clothes I'm always in? Okay, that's the deviation about America.

Okay, yeah, that's sidebar. But also, you know, they call it junk mail. It has a name, junk mail. Is that what they call it? Yeah, that's junk mail. How do I stop it coming? You don't. You just throw it in the recycling bin immediately. There has a name. Junk mail. Is that what they call it? Yeah, that's junk mail. How do I stop it coming? You don't.

You just throw it in the recycling bin immediately. There's so much. I know. No wonder the postal service is wrecked here. It's just delivering this rubbish all day. Whenever I open my mailbox, there's all this stuff in there. I'm like, who's writing to me today? I can't believe you look at it. No one I know.

I read it all. I open it thinking, will this be Molly or something? No, never. It's just the bank. Molly? Don't No, never. It's just the bank. Molly? Don't worry about it. It's just a random name that came out. So, Waffle House.

Okay. This is my journey into Waffle House. Great. And it all began with a beautiful song. Raisin. Raisin toast. Raisin toast. Raisin. raisin toast, raisin toast, raisin, raisin toast Not just any old songs. Original music about Waffle House, by Waffle House, at Waffle House. All released on the official Waffle House record label, Waffle Records. I'd never encountered a diner with their own record label.

It was just one of the facts that first drew me into the cults of Waffle House. A cult first launched in Georgia back in 1955. My name is Ingeri Boss. I'm the Vice President of Public Relations for Waffle House. How long have you been with Waffle House for? Six and a half years. As I made this week's little audio documentary about Waffle House, life had conspired to keep me away from a Waffle House. And while Los Angeles has many things, it does not have a Waffle House. It's got In-N-Out, it's got McDonald's, it's got House of Pies, but it does not have a Waffle House. And when I found myself in Texas while I was making this episode, the nearest Waffle House was still ages away. So my conversation

with their main public spokesperson began with my waffled excuses for never having tasted the waffles of Waffle House. You haven't been? No. How are you able to authentically do this interview and you haven't been? Oh my goodness. Okay. I would need to live vicariously through Ingeri Boss as you, podcast listener, live vicariously through me.

An Inception-esque escapade into this beloved American restaurant chain conceived by two friends, Joe Rogers Sr. and Tom Faulkner. I'm curious what your take on Waffle House was when you walked into that job. Well, it was very different, as I think it is for a lot of people who eat at a Waffle House, they have no idea what it takes to run one and all of the unique things that happen behind the scenes, even though it might be happening right in front of your very eyes. I actually had grown up with Waffle Houses. I grew up in the South, so I grew up going to them, had a lot of fun going to them as a child. Remember them being a safe place to stop on the road when we're driving through the night

as a family going from the South to the North to visit relatives. So I was very familiar with that aspect of it. The collegiality, the employees seemed to have a lot of fun. They had fun with each other. They had fun with their customers. The customers seemed to enjoy it. So when I walked in, I really didn't know what to expect beyond that. And I tell you what, what it really is, is getting a real life MBA. You learn on the job to do the job. I've heard the saying, if you know how to run a Waffle House, you can run anything. It's very true. Part of the charm of Waffle House is its simplicity, how uniform it is. You know what you're getting. The exterior of each Waffle House, there are about 2000 of them scattered around the South, and basically just a simple rectangle. This bold yellow signage wrapped around the exterior with windows all

around. The big block letters of Waffle House are displayed on what reminds me of giant scrabble tiles. The typical Waffle House is what we call a shoebox design. It really is a rectangle. One of the things that governs how many people you can take care of well is how fast your grill-op team is and how quickly you can turn around orders and get that hot food out. Again, we're cooking to order. There are no heat lamps. Things aren't sitting and waiting for you to come and pick them up. We're waiting for you to order. Then we cook the food and bring it to the table. So you need to be able to do that quickly. And size does matter. We've looked at the number of steps that it takes to be able to go from the grill to the customer,

from the customer to the drink machine and back. All of that has been taken into account. It's that quick service and simple design that have helped cement it in American pop culture. Hootie and the Blowfish, responsible for Only Wanna Be With You Called one of their records Scattered, Smothered and Covered The name of a Waffle House campaign One of the guys who created Reddit thanks an epiphany at Waffle House For his idea to make the message board And I'm showing my age here

But the Bloodhound gang sang about Waffle House In their big hit, The Bad Touch. Want you smothered, want you covered, like my Waffle House hash browns. Such a horny song. I remembered Monica mentioning Waffle House in that early episode after I stumbled on a book called Waffle House Vistas. Photographer Mika Cash has spent years traveling around the American South visiting Waffle Houses. Like me, he was fascinated by how generic they first appeared. I mean, they're just shoeboxes. You can build one in probably a couple of weeks. Mika photographed the outside of Waffle Houses. He photographed the inside of Waffle Houses.

And he photographed the vistas he'd see out the windows of Waffle Houses. And for all that genericness, he started noticing something, which is why his book starts with an essay called A Waffle House Contains Multitudes. I think it has more about to do with the social aspect of it than it does the food. Even though it's a diner that looks exactly the same everywhere for the most part and has just sort of dotted the landscape, what's inside the restaurant is not homogenous.

Outside of common humanity, life struggles, the stressors of life, parenting, jobs, family, tragedy, loss, love, hope, all the things we should be able to bond over but routinely find ourselves in our political environment being ripped apart without seeing the commonalities between us. Like, they exist within those restaurants. And so that's something that surprised me. When I go, say, to Shreveport, Louisiana, the people in there are of Shreveport, and more particularly, that neighborhood of Shreveport. If I go across town to another one in Shreveport, it's going to be different people from a different neighborhood and a different version of their reality. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird.

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Flightless Bird is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I had my Athletic Greens about two hours ago. You seem energetic. I'm chipper. Yeah, I am chipper. I think it's the AG1. My routine. So I wake up in the morning, I have my AG1, which tastes delicious. And then I have my coffee and then I'm good to go. For me, it's a shortcut because I don't eat great. And I know this is at least one thing that I can do right where I'm getting some good stuff in my body, which feels good. You get 75 high quality vitamins, minerals, superfoods, probiotics, adaptogens, all of the stuff, but you don't have to eat anything for them, which I appreciate

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at some pretentious art gallery opening to a gun shooting range. A certain sort of person will be found at a Michelin star restaurant over a delicious McDonald's. But Waffle House is a leveller. Mika puts it in the same camp as another much-loved chain. That place where you can catch Ben Affleck struggling with armfuls of coffees and donuts. I'll tell you one thing that is similar to Waffle House and that's Dunkin' Donuts, but only in New England. Dunkin' Donuts is spread all over the place, but people in New England love Dunkin' Donuts. I spent two years in Connecticut at the University of Connecticut for graduate school. And I would go into just a random Dunkin' Donuts in the morning and it'd be packed

and you would see people all walks of life sitting in a Dunkin' Donuts. I saw people closing million dollar real estate deals in three-piece suits at 9.45 in the morning, sitting next to somebody who was clearly homeless and just needing a warm place because it was winter in New England. And that is Waffle House. Waffle House and Dunkin' Donuts, places for everyone. A valuable way for Americans to gather to catch their breath. National parks do a similar thing. I know a lot of people that just see Waffle House as sort of like a rural American phenomenon, very white. Not the case at all.

Most cities will have five to 50 of them. So there's just as many in urban environments as there are suburban and rural locations. There's just as many in residential areas as there are on the interstate, where no one lives for 20 miles around. It's a perspective Waffle House agrees with and welcomes. Waffle House really is a mirror of Main Street.

Anybody and everybody can come into the Waffle House. It doesn't matter how much money you have or how little you have. It doesn't matter what you look like, your color of your skin, your politics, your religion. None of that matters. look like, your color of your skin, your politics, your religion, none of that matters. Everybody who comes in wants a nice comfortable place to sit, be able to watch their food being cooked right in front of them, cooked to order, and then be able to enjoy it quickly hot off the grill. And in the meantime, might be able to strike up a conversation with a customer who comes from a different walk of life than they do. It's anybody and everybody. And that's what makes it so unique. It sounds like

some kind of utopia, the heaven you read about in the Bible. Customers are quick to form friendships with the line cooks, or grill operators as they're officially called at Waffle House. We welcome you as soon as you come in the door. You should be welcomed as soon as you come in the door. If you come again to that same place, we get to know your order. And shoot, before you know it, when you drive into the parking lot, if we see your car, we know what you order. We'll have your coffee ready. You might even have your plate being put

down at the same time that you're sitting down. So that's kind of how it is. It's a family atmosphere with fun. It all just sounds like words, piaspin. But there are a load of stories out there about this family vibe of Waffle House, how they really look after their staff. I've heard similar tales about Costco, but Waffle House, how they really look after their staff. I've heard similar tales about Costco, but Waffle House seems to take things further somehow. Timothy Harrison in Centerpoint, Alabama, a senior, didn't have a way to get to his graduation, hadn't even picked up his graduation packet. He had been excited about it, so everybody knew that his graduation was coming up and he wasn't supposed to work, but he showed up for work that Saturday and his manager, Cedric Hampton, just looked at him and said, wait a minute, you're not supposed to be here.

And so he whipped his staff into action. Everybody wanted to help, including customers. And they got him new clothes, new shoes. They got over to the high school, got his paperwork, his cap and gown, and then drove across town to get him to the graduation. Graduation. You don't get much more all-American than that. As Ian makes its way across Florida, FEMA is standing by to help. Possibly the most amazing thing about Waffle House is something that wasn't invented by Waffle House,

but became forever linked to it. Craig, we want to ask you about something, something you coined known as the Waffle House Index back in 2004 at the height of Hurricane Charlie. Hurricane Charlie in 2004 was devastating, and it also led to the so-called Waffle House Index. Former FEMA Director Craig Fugate came up with the phrase back when he was the Emergency Management Director in Florida. He was looking for a really easy and simple way to be able to instruct his team members how to decide what area had been the most devastated so they could get the resources to that area first. So essentially, he noticed that Waffle House, if we stayed open during a storm because we were able to do that safely, or we were the first ones to reopen after a really bad storm. So he told his team members, hey, if you're driving,

you see a Waffle House and it's open and they look like they're on a regular menu, that's a green, keep driving. If you get to a Waffle House and we're on a limited menu because either power is out, water is out, then yep, there's some damage there, but that's not the most critical area, keep driving. If you get to a location where the Waffle House is closed, that's red. Stop your car. Get out. That's where you need to be in the community first. And it stuck. This is dream PR for any restaurant. The Waffle House index shows the resilience of the place. It's built to keep cooking with its backup generators and gas grills if the electricity goes out. It links Waffle House

with the idea of safety and feeling safe. And if Waffle House is shut, you know shit's really bad. But Njeri is very clear that this is as far from a planned PR stunt as humanly possible. You know, people always ask us about the Waffle House index, and I'm always very careful to share what doesn't belong to us. People use it. Forecasters, others use it. We're not the only business government officials look at in terms of trying to determine the amount of devastation in a community, but we certainly have that name recognition. She also wants to clarify something else about Waffle House and disasters, their so-called

jump teams, which she says people get very confused by. They ask all the time about our jump teams. These are not folks who jump out of airplanes. We leave that to the military. But what it is, is we've come up with a system where when one part of the system is hurting or needs help or assistance, we have volunteers who are ready to go in, whether they're driven in or flown in to get to that area. They volunteer their time. They get paid, of course, but they're volunteering to leave their market to go to another market that they don't normally work in to help that market get back up to speed.

Because normally if we are the only place that's open after a significant threat or significant storm, then that means that there are going to be larger numbers of customers because we're absorbing customers that have come from other places and we're the only game in town. So you're going to need other people to help keep up with that customer count, make sure everybody's taken care of, give our local folks a bit of a break when they need to. Some of those volunteers are there to even help our local associates who have suffered some damage to their homes. Members of that jump team can be construction crew members because we build our own waffle houses. We have our own construction team. We're the general contractor on every one of those.

So we have that expertise there as well. So there can be some minor repairs that get done. That's the level of the support that's there. This is not a situation where we're forcing anyone to work. We usually have to turn people down in terms of saying, hey, we've got enough volunteers. We still need our other markets to keep running. But it's about helping out. That's part of our culture. We call it the show up culture.

We show up for one another. That's lovely. It's so nice. I googled around this and everything she said is all backed up. It just sounds like they have a really, really, really good culture there. Everything she said is all backed up. It just sounds like they have a really, really, really good culture there. Infrastructure, for sure. Okay, a few things.

One, this is sort of in keeping with what we were just saying, but there is a warmth and a safety you feel in there, minus all the fights. Yeah. Because the people who work there, they kind of all feel like your mom. They're nice to you but they like they might scold you you know you like you might get a little slap on the wrist from them they call you baby and stuff yeah right and this is a sort of tie-in with the southern kind of thing as well like it's a bit more welcoming and a bit less cold yeah i'm reminded a bit of like the culture in philly with uh when

i talked to mine in the window where she was like she keeps people in line yes exactly because the fights you know they have to deal with that too did you talk to her about fight oh we we briefly went into it but i almost wanted to not lean under too heavily because i almost feel like yeah there are fights but obviously that happens wherever there's an all-time diner, right? It's going to get crazy. True, exactly. But you're there at three in the morning or something on a Friday. Things can get kind of crazy. Things are bound to pop off. Going into this, I kind of had an image of it just being chaos. In New Zealand, where I lived, we had this downtown Burger King and it was just rough.

And that's kind of what I felt with this. Whereas obviously it sounds like the nicest, most welcoming place you can imagine. Yeah, it is. It is. It's not like your scary Burger King. Now I want a t-shirt from Waffle House as well. You can't get one until you go. Okay.

I am going to go. This year, I'm going to get to a Waffle House. Okay. Another thing that I'm kind of, I guess, embarrassed about, if we're confessing to things we haven't done. This is the confessions episode. I've never ordered a waffle at Waffle House. See, okay, this is interesting because a lot of people that I've spoken to colloquially are the same. Yeah. They're all about the hash browns. A hundred percent. Smothered, covered. Yeah. Just like that horny song. Exactly. Exactly. I always get mine, I think, smothered and covered. There's one other.

Right. Smothered, covered. There's one that's cheese. That's amazing. I always get that. Then I get onion. They're like fry up onions in there. Oh, it's so good. Sausage, egg, and cheese. Bacon, egg, and cheese. No, it's so good sausage egg and cheese bacon egg and cheese no no just look at the hash brown the other thing is our hash brown options there's a million things that are off menu as well so you've got the menu in front of you but then you can pretty much get it customized to whatever you want which i really love yeah i normally get eggs bacon and hash browns but But never the waffle.

When they brought up waffles, I was like, do they sell waffles? I didn't even know. I love that about it, though. It's in the name, but it's not the most important thing there. It's the least important thing. It's scattered, smothered, and covered. Right. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird.

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at your favorite local grocery store or retailer. What's the chain you go into? I think it's like a low-key hotel or motel in America. And whenever you go there and you have a free breakfast, it's always got the waffle maker and you can pour the mix in. Sure. I've had it a few times. They are some nasty waffles. They make you feel like you are full of lead.

Okay. And you're going to sink into the pool. Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to comment. It's a lot. Because what I want to say is definitely don't do that at a free breakfast. Yeah. No, no.

I think we all agree. I think I'd take any option but the mix. But then we sound elite, like coastal elites. I mean, my favorite food is McDonald's cheeseburger. I am definitely not elite. Yeah, they're a bit nasty. That's a pre-COVID thing. I cannot imagine ever doing that now

I just woke up very hungry one time And I went down and I made myself like five of those waffles And I covered it in sauce And I felt so ill afterwards Sauce meaning syrup? Syrup Is it a Hampton Inn? I think it was a Holiday Inn

They do free breakfast One time I had to stay in a Holiday inn because I went to visit my friend. Well, they were away, so I went to their house in New York. And they said, the key's hidden here. This is how you get in. And I went to the front door and I tried the key and the key wouldn't work. And I'm like, oh, no, I've obviously got the wrong apartment door. So I go up different levels.

I try all the doors. I'm not getting in. So I was defeated. I couldn't get not getting in. So I was defeated. I couldn't get into this apartment. So I went and stayed at a Holiday Inn. I wheeled my suitcases through New York. I found a Holiday Inn. This is the Holiday Inn Express in Midtown?

It would have been. I think it probably was. Talked to my friend the next day, and they had an Airbnb person in before me in their place. And they weren't happy with how jiggly the lock was. So they got a locksmith to come in and change the locks before they left and forgot to tell her. Wow. And that's why I ended up at a Holiday Inn where I had the nasty waffles.

Well, I believe I've also stayed in that Holiday Inn in New York. I've stayed in so many Holiday Inns because... It's always there. It's like, that's probably another episode. It's always there and it's affordable and you can always get a room. Yes. My parents never did the luxury hotel. It was always a holiday inn. This is my parents too. Yeah. And not that long ago, maybe like five or six years ago, we did a group trip.

Maybe it was longer than that, but to New York. I met them there. We were staying at the Holiday Inn, four of us in one room. And my dad was snoring so loud. How many rooms? Two rooms? Two beds in each? One room.

Where were you all sleeping? Two beds, one room. I love this. This is so economical and practical. I was so angry the whole night and such a brat. And in the morning I said, I'm going to stay at another hotel. Goodbye. Oh, your parents must have been heartbroken.

Their daughter wakes up and says, I'm leaving you. They can't be heartbroken when they put you through trauma. A loud dad snore. Allow dad's snore. And dads do snore loud. It was impossible. Yeah, my dad's a loud snorer. It was impossible. I was so mad at them.

I was like, how are we still living like this? I really love that image. It's really good. And then waffles for breakfast. I like that you don't. You don't want to offend people by the waffle thing. You're saying how people live like this and stay at all the end.

No, how do my parents still, when I'm 30 or whatever, 28, have us all crammed. Four adults. What was the bed situation? Were you in two beds?

No, I was with my mom. And my brother and my dad shared a bed. But like as far away as these two chairs are. Yeah. That's not against Holiday Inns. That's against my family for making bad decisions. Being close to your family is a lot. Yeah, I wouldn't do that either.

Where did your toothbrushes go? Oh, my dad did get mad because I accidentally took his toothpaste with me to the other hotel. And he didn't have it. He had no toothpaste. No toothpaste left. He has great dental hygiene. And it's like part of his routine. And he was pissed.

Yeah, I would be too. Well, he could have just used my mom's. But he likes his toothpaste, which I also like. Arm and hammer? Yeah, it is. It is arm and Hammer. He's the one that introduced me to it. Did you bring Neil with you or you let him stay?

No, fuck that. Hell no. So he got his own bed then. Exactly. I did him a favor. It was for him. Anyway, Waffle House, love it. Okay, also Dunkin' Donuts.

When the Dunkin' Donuts opened up here in Los Angeles, it was a frenzy. People loved it. It was maybe eight or ten years ago. Do you remember this? It opened in, like, Santa Monica. And it was a huge deal. Huge lines. Everyone was freaking out.

I also do love Dunkin' Donuts. We had that with Sonic in Illinois. Oh. Because we would get the commercials because there was a ton of them in all the neighboring states. But there were no Sonics for hours. I didn't know this happened in America

in different states because in New Zealand we got an In-N-Out burger for like two days. It was a pop-up. No way! And we went crazy. Of course. People went nuts. Of course. It was some burger joint. I'm worried now it wasn't In-N-Out because it almost seems too cool. It was a really popular some burger joint. I'm worried now it wasn't In-N-Out because it almost seems too cool.

It was a really popular American burger joint that opened for two days and we went crazy. But the idea that you also have this between states and you get excited about different states place is really lovely. If In-N-Out opened in the south or east coast, it would be a freak out. Dunking Donuts, am I also correct in thinking the coffee there is meant to be quite good? Yeah, everyone loves the coffee. It's solid coffee. Yeah. Everyone loves the coffee. I like the chocolate cake donut. I met this old man. We always walk up the same walk up Griffith Park. He had his 90th birthday and all the walkers, we all gathered to celebrate and there were these big tables and Pete was there telling his stories. I love Pete.

He's so nice. He's a stranger you met on a walk? Yeah. I'm meeting all sorts of people up and down there. Wait, David. Yeah, when I'm not listening to my metal music powering along. You're not even noticing me and you're meeting strangers? No, at the top.

You meet Pete at the top. He's this beautiful old man. Oh. And he had his birthday party. So he invited us all to his birthday, all the walkers. And we all went to his birthday party. But they had Dunkin' Donuts coffee in big cartons. Yes, they do that.

And I couldn't figure out how to pour it. It was so complicated, and it took me so long. But then Pete came along and was like, this is how you pour it, Sonny. And it was really kind. Then I had my first Dunkin' Donuts coffee on top of this hill with this old man. Did you like it? I loved it. It was so good.

That's really sweet. One other rumor I heard about Waffle House. So I don't know if it's true. I don't know if she said it and I just missed it. This is how rumors start, by the way. When a podcast goes, I heard something. I did. This is a positive rumor.

Is that everyone who works at Waffle House, even if you're an upper management, you spend some time on the floor of a Waffle House. I've heard that too. Can't confirm it, but I have heard that same thing. And after talking to her, it sounds lovely. I love that. I love any business that does that, that makes the corporate guy go do stuff.

Yeah, stuff that actually matters. Like you're a restaurant selling food. You might as well be on the floor doing that. You need to know what it's like. Yeah, stuff that actually matters. Like you're a restaurant selling food, you might as well be on the floor doing that so you can see what it's about. You need to know what it's like. Yeah, know what it's like when there's like an angry drunk customer screaming at you at three in the morning. Yeah, and high schoolers fighting outside in the parking lot. Threatening to stab each other. That's scary. So scary. I'd hate being stabbed. There's a little bit more to learn. Are you ready for a little bit more learning? Yes.

We are right there. Joey Chestnut is on the precipice of history, ladies and gentlemen, and you are with him watching. I'm watching a clip on YouTube of a waffle-eating competition held outside a waffle house back in 2006. The caption's quite long and reads, Joey Chestnut sets the world record while eaters Sonia Thomas, Chip Simpson, Hall Hunt, Larry McNeil, Crazy Legs, Super Paul, Bone Breaker Barlow,

Bubba Yalbra, Eric Bro, and The Hangman all fight for leftover dough. How American is that? Anyway, as I'm watching, I remember that I haven't really investigated the food at Waffle House yet. And Njeri tells me that it's all about efficiency, including the shorthand they use to communicate in the kitchen. So for example, it'll be mark, order, scramble, plate, scattered, covered. So that's an order of scrambled eggs, two eggs, plate. So that means it's going to be hash browns, not grits. Scattered, that means that the hash browns are cooked loosely on the grill as opposed to contained in a ring. And covered means a slice of American cheese.

And so they'll mark the plate with condiments and that kind of thing so they can remember. It used to be that they were memory cooks. Back in the day, they did it all by memory. We still have several memory cooks who they shy away from the marking. They really don't like the marking. Waffle House also does something else unique. They take the food orders before the drinks. The food is on the grill before the drink order is taken, so that they basically all arrive at the same time. You're not left there guzzling liters of Coke, filling yourself up

before the food arrives. For me, this is a godsend because it's exactly what I do. I guzzle the drink and then I can't fit any food in. I have suffered from that a lot. Yes. And then you can't eat your food because you sat and drank all of that soda or whatever it is you're drinking. So it's an opportunity for people to be able to enjoy the meal that they've ordered when it is hot and fresh off the grill. That's the best way to have it. And you're eating in our kitchen. The kitchen is not in the back. You don't have to guess what the chef or the sous chef is doing. You can see it. And I mean, some of our customers who are regulars, they're so much so are regulars that they try to call their orders from their seats, just like our service, because they know

how to call them. She calls it the waffle language. I wonder if one day, if I stay in America long enough, I'll learn the waffle language. Like those kids that learn Klingon from Star Trek or Elvish from Lord of the Rings. Probably the most famous Elvish word is melon, which means friend, which Gandalf says when he wants to get to the mines of Moria. Anyway, back to Waffle House. The number one order I would probably say would be the all-star, Anyway, back to Waffle House. The number one order I would probably say would be the all-star,

which is two eggs cooked anyway with your choice of toast. And we have several options there. You can get it with grits or with hash browns. Your choice of meat and, of course, your choice of waffle, which could be our sweet cream waffle or our chocolate waffle or blueberry waffle or pecan waffle or a mix of all of those. I felt saliva pooling in my mouth as I listened, frustrated that I'm stuck here in LA, some robbery leftover pizza waiting for me in the fridge. But to bring some reality back to the situation, Mika, who's pretty much lived in Waffle Houses over the last three years,

had some important points to make. One, it's not actually that cheap. You would probably spend less money at a McDonald's than at a Waffle House because you also have to include the gratuity. My standard two-egg breakfast with bacon, hash browns, and coffee with gratuity will run me anywhere from $10 to $14. And I usually will tip like five bucks, you know, on a simple breakfast. The other thing too is, yes, the waffle is in their name. The waffles are good. The pecan waffle is especially good. And if you want a little bit of southern in your waffle, put some pecans in it.

But you got to have the hash browns. That's really what everybody goes to Waffle House for. So don't leave without having hash browns. This is sort of mind blowing. I mean, waffle is in the name. Maybe Waffle House should be renamed Hash House. You could do it at home, but it won't taste as good as a Waffle House. The level of butter, I think the crispiness of the hash browns, if you get them nice and scattered on the grill, actually tastes really great. Before I entered my foray into the food

and culture of Waffle House, I wanted to address that point Monica raised about kerfuffles in Waffle House. As I said earlier, I know that stories of craziness at Waffle House have little to do with the place and more the fact it's open literally all the time. If you're working with a time period that you can describe as all the time, then of course anything and everything

will eventually happen. So I phrased my question politely. Are there any challenges with running a sort of 24-hour style diner? Well, if it were easy, everybody would do it. We started back in 1955 when, of course, the nighttime culture was a lot different than it is today. It really wasn't about bar and entertainment culture. It was about shift work. We still have a fair amount of folks who work during that time and need to be able to have a place to eat. There still are a lot of folks traveling at night because the roads have fewer cars. But for the majority of it, it really is that nighttime entertainment crowd that you may

get once the bars close. They're looking for a place to eat. They know that Waffle House will be open. And so we are there and we keep our menu fairly simple. We don't change it very often. And so folks shouldn't have a difficulty ordering what they want to order. There's no accounting for how people are going to have to behave. And those situations create some difficulty for our staff. They've been trained on how to handle it. Waffle House is found in 25 of the 50 states, mainly in the South. And maybe that's why Waffle House is found in 25 of the 50 states, mainly in the South. And maybe that's why Waffle House is so hospitable. I went to school in the Midwest. I have traveled in the North. I've lived out on the West Coast in California. So it is very different. There's just a more of an openness,

of frankness, nothing to hide. We welcome you kind of atmosphere, come on in, we accept you as you are type of hospitality. And that's really what the Southern hospitality has always been. Maybe not always executed as well as it should be everywhere, but that's pretty much what it is. It's just this place that has entry points from every possible walk of life. And you just have to make the commitment to walk in. I love Waffle House, the invention of Joe Rogers Sr. and Tom Faulkner, who both actually died within three months of each other

back in 2017. As I log off from my Zoom interviews with Mika and Njeri, I stop my main microphone rolling and just have my terrible computer audio running. I've told Njeri I've stopped the interview. And that's when the Southern hospitality kicks in. If you really want to come where it started, come to Georgia. Let me know you're in town and I'll take you.

Amika's final words are so beautiful too, I think. But we're all so grizzled and cynical, I worry they're going to come across as way too earnest. but we're also grizzled and cynical. I worry they're going to come across as way too earnest. So to counter that, Flightless Birds editor Billy is going to play raisin toast under it just so you can stomach the very earnest words. I think there's a lot to be learned when people realize that we have way more in common

than we do in terms of differences. And that if we could just talk about that and talk about everyone's honest hopes and dreams and then figure out a way to achieve them rather than thinking that one person's hopes or dreams is more important than somebody else's, it seems so simple. I walked into the Waffle House and sat down at my seat

Looked the menu over, well, decided what to eat Out came one little guy who looked at me and said I'm so disappointed in you. In what? That you just can't have a real moment. No, I can't. I listened to Mika's final kind of words and I was like, it's too earnest. We need to counter this with some comedy. And I think it was beautiful. I think Raisin Toast combined with how Waffle House can potentially solve all of America's problems is a beautiful combination.

I did have this moment last time I was there. Where I went to the Waffle House can potentially solve all of America's problems is a beautiful combination. I did have this moment last time I was there where I went to the Waffle House, I sat at the counter, and there was an older white woman working. As I said, a very mom-ish energy. And also there was a woman also working wearing a hijab. And I loved it. I i was like this is beautiful these two people from very different backgrounds working together at a waffle house yeah it's really good i think we can all take a lesson from waffle house everyone's in there and we're having

a nice time yeah if somehow we could expand the culture of a waffle house minus the 3 a.m fights out into the entirety of the planet maybe the world would be a better place i also think when you go in there doesn't matter how coastal elite you are or how hoity-toity you are you're like okay with a teeny tiny bit of grime yeah yeah it becomes okay yeah a little bit of not sparkliness exactly it's not pristine and that's great it's hard to tell you the emotion i get when i slide into a booth we don't have booths in new zealand yeah and just there's something about sliding in there it's just the best thing in the world i love it so great. I love it. It's so comfy. I can't believe you don't have booths. Yeah, it's bonkers. That's so strange.

We have Denny's and there's a bit of booth action there. Okay. But not the number of booths you get here in America. There's something about being cozy. You can lean on the table as well. I love it. You feel protected and open. I'd love a psychologist to explain the culture of what it's like when everyone's boothed up.

It's like this great leveler. It is's really true i love that and i'm gonna take her up on her offer to go to waffle house in georgia i'm gonna see you at the waffle house you're gonna not notice yeah you won't know it's you yeah oh my god we'll both be eating there in separate foods monica will know but david will exactly Exactly. My whole life is other people. He'll know. He's just avoiding and acting like he doesn't. That Waffle House Vistas book, I don't know if there's any copies left. I got it from this weird little bookstore.

But I Googled it. And if you go to bittersoutherner.com, apparently it has that book in it. It's just really beautiful photos that he's taken. I really want that. From Waffle House. Out the window. Yeah. Different vistas inside. It's really beautiful. Does he's taken from Waffle House. Out the window, different vistas inside.

It's really beautiful. Does he sell the photography? No, it's just in the book, I think. Well, can we reach out to him? Because I would like a framed photo. Okay, I will reach out to Mika and I will see what he can come up with. Alright, well, I'm sad you didn't go, but

I'm excited for you that you will go. I'm excited too.'t go, but I'm excited for you that you will go. I'm excited too. I came into this episode not having strong opinions on Waffle House besides that book. Now I can't wait to eat mainly the hash browns. They're so good. That is one of my deathbed meals. Really? Or death row meals, whatever you're calling it.

Last meal. Well, the thing is, you can only have one. No, you can have one meal, but compiled of lots of different things. I didn't know that. I think you're right. That's another flightless bird. That'll be a good episode. The death penalty episode. That won't be divisive. But the food!

Very specifically about the food. That'll be a pivot. A pivot away from controversy. The final meal. You'll have to find some correctional officers and see the rules of last meal. Oh my god. I would be curious to know. I am. Because I think you're probably right.

You can probably formulate your own meal full of different things. I've always just expected the one McDonald's cheeseburger to be laid down. Because that's my favorite food of all time. It's kind of poetic to just have the one McDonald's. Just the one. Am I more American or less? Less. Because I haven't been.

You haven't been and you couldn't let that beautiful piece of earnest communication just be. You had to make it so New Zealand and put a little ditty under it. Your face as that tune played on and on was really worth it all. It reminded me of when Dax looks at me and sings. Or does accents. Raisins in my toast. Bye, Monica.

Bye.