Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Jada Pinkett Smith

Episode Date: October 16, 2023

Jada Pinkett Smith is an actor, producer, and talk show host. Jada joins the Armchair Expert to discuss where she got her sense of punctuality from, how difficult it can be to share your life with the public, and her experience with abandonment. Jada and Dax talk about what she learned about loyalty from Tupac, what it was like being robbed at gunpoint, and how she feels about asking for help. Jada explains what it’s like to have a shared identity with another person, her four-day ayahuasca journey, and how she learned to love herself and others at the same time. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Monica Smith. Good morning to you. Good morning. How are you? Happy Monday morning. It's Monday. It's a new week.

Fresh start. Yep. Mondays seems to always come first in the week. Actually, technically, I think it's Sunday. Sunday. I hate that. Me too. Don't you think that's bullshit?

Yeah, I don't love it. Sunday's not the first day of the week. It's the last day of the week. It's like, I feel like a nerd made that. Me too. Don't you think that's bullshit? Yeah, I don't love it. Sunday's not the first day of the week. It's the last day of the week. It's like, I feel like a nerd made that up. Yeah. Is it because it's a religious connotation? I think it's supposed to start the week with the observance. I bet it is.

I'm confused, but it's certainly the end of the weekend. Yep. How could the end of the weekend be the first day of the week? It must have been, it was invented before there were weekends and weekdays. Probably. This is an incredible episode. Yeah. It's so good. It's insane.

What an experience. Jada Pinkett Smith. I don't even need to tell you about Jada Pinkett Smith, but I will anyway. She's an actor, talk show host. She's directed. She's done everything. Huge producer.

Red Table Talk, monster of a show. Girls Trip, Madagascar, The Nightly Professor, set it off. And her book, which we talk about in great detail worthy which is really incredible and this was just a fucking beautiful two hours so lucky yeah please enjoy jada pinkett smith trip planner by expedia you were made to have strong opinions about sand we were made to help you and your friends find a place on a beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia. Made to travel. He's an object expert.

He's an object expert. He's an object expert. What do you think of these chairs, Jada? I like those chairs. I really do. Tell me. I gotta be honest. I was like, this is a real deal armchair podcast. That's right.

We try to live up to the name. We sure do. If you want a brief history, it started with this recliner. This was Dax's. Okay. This was. And I found that my sweating in it, like my shirt was wet. And it may happen again today.

And then when I go outside to take a picture with the guests, I'm like, oh, fuck, they're going to touch my back. You got really self-conscious about it. Incredibly self-conscious. But I'm like, I need a fabric chair. So I ordered this online. I didn't know I was getting like a big and tall version. Because look, I'm 6'3".

Right. My feet don't touch the grandma. I also thought this grandma print would be charming. Monica hates it. I love it. I did not expect the grandma print. That's true. It's mixed messages.

Disarming a little bit, right? Yeah. I was like, this is going to be cool. But also, it didn't fix the sweating. He still sweats in this. So it didn't really help. It's okay. It's all good.

Yeah, that's that man heat. You know what I mean? When you're 6'3". You know what I mean? Nothing you can do about that. That's just that man heat. Losing out. You were early.

Are you always early? I am. Or is it because you had to drive across the world to get here? I have to drive across the world, so I'm always early for everything. Yeah. Now, were you late to red? Because I'm late to this. No, no, no.

You are. I'm never late. I guess I got that from my grandmother, being punctual. Your mom's mom. Yeah, my mom's mom. I had to be punctual, so I'm always early, even in my own house. Was it strict? My childhood with my grandmother was very much about schedule.

I got to tell you, I have not had the experience I had in the last couple days since I was in college 23 years ago. It was very important to me that I actually read your entire book. Right. Because I have a lot of respect for you and I want to earn going to all these places. I don't want to read highlights. So I'm also dyslexic. I got to tell you, the cramming I have done over the... I haven't done this since...

I got to the finish line like 40 minutes ago. Oh, wow. And I was like, okay, time to take the exam. I read the fucking bio book. Wow. Thanks. Thank you. Very muscle memory.

I was like, oh, I haven't had this experience in like 23 years. It's kind of fun, right? It is. Puts you back in that space. Panic, though. You remember that panic? Oh, yeah. You're like, oh, right? It is. Puts you back in that space. Panic, though. You remember that panic? Oh, yeah. You're like, oh, fuck.

We were running out of time. I'm going to have to read till 2 and then wake up at 6. I loved it. Thank you. I loved it. I really, really loved getting to know your story.

It's pretty bonkers. I know I have a habit of this, but there's some crazy parallels. Well, that's why I've been trying to get you to the red table. You got next. Yeah, yeah, why I've been trying to get you to the red table. You got next. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

But yeah, I mean, I don't even know where we would start. But I think like addict parents, young parents, divorced early, addiction, abuse. It's all right there. All of it. It's such a universal story for so many of us. It is. And I think, you know, when we were growing up, I don't know, you would occasionally hear someone come on Oprah, right? And say something.

And then in my shitty town, it'd be like, well, they want attention. Yeah. Because you did feel it back in that day that if you were to acknowledge any of these traumas that you'd be out. You'd be persona non grata, right? It was too high risk. For sure. It's such a different time. It's such a different time. It's a way different time.

And I'm delighted it's this way. Yeah, me too. More transparency and we get to really share the authenticity of our stories. It's still a lot of stories that are quite taboo to share, you know. But I think in this day and age with everything that's going on, I think what's most important is to let people know that you're not alone. And for those of us who have been through the gauntlet in a certain manner to share what we've learned along the way to try to get through this thing called life.

Yeah. But you know, I'm hypercritical of myself. I'm imagining you beat the shit out of yourself. Absolutely. I'm seeing all the incredible gifts that come out of the background. And I'm hypercritical of myself. I'm imagining you beat the shit out of yourself. Absolutely. I'm seeing all the incredible gifts that come out of the background. And I'm also relating so much with the character defects. Yeah. Definitely. I mean, that is a big part of it. Sometimes they're hand in hand often. Yeah.

Different sides of the same coin. This is the magic of AA, right? I get immense pleasure out of seeing someone else with the same character defects. I'm like, no, they're struggling with the same thing. She's being tough again. Let the world know, don't hurt me. Exactly. Exactly.

Come on, Dex. That's what it's all about. If I had to isolate the number one similarity, it's I will hurt you back. Yeah. There it is. It's a bummer. It breaks my heart for you. It doesn't break my heart for me, but I will hurt you back. Yeah, there it is. It's a bummer. It breaks my heart for you. It doesn't break my heart for me, but I'm aware of it. It's got to be fucking exhausting to be

around us though. No. Yes. And that's the thing I had to realize. You know what I'm saying? I had to realize that in my coming to Jesus moments about myself through my healing process. Yeah. In the book, I got to say, I got to really applaud in a very, very AA way. You're brutal on yourself. You take your inventory in this book. I take a lot of inventory. And I fucking admire it. It's the bravest shit anyone can do to acknowledge I've been an asshole along the way.

I've been indulgent. I've been all these things. And then I have such compassion for it. So my first question really is, you wrote it. You have all that control while you're sitting by yourself and you're experiencing that. And then now it's seeping out and now it's not in your control. Yeah. And is it scary?

It's scary. It is, right? Right. But I told everybody, especially Will. I was just talking to him on the phone. I was like, I told you it was's gonna be a rough start brace for impact but it's going to be a cool landing yeah yeah that's the hard part when there's other people you still have an obligation to share your truth but sometimes it brings in other people's truth

too it's been interesting what different people take from my story it's like well no no no it's not exactly the ah damn it all right cool yeah you know what i mean that's like okay that's your interpretation all right you wanted to start with uh fine but you kind of have to just let it go just trust the process because it really is a process right now i guess the whole journey is to eventually at some point look at yourself and go like yeah man here's the whole thing i'm cool with it and it's okay with me if you're not right this is jumping into the fire this is it this is it you might be a day away from self-actualization. Exactly. Straight up. Straight up.

That's the bummer for me is that there's going to just be headlines. It's going to get reduced to the four most exciting things on a gossipy level. And that's got to be frustrating. That's a bummer. But, you know, been there several times over. I'm just glad that there's a book. So just in case somebody really wants to know what's going on. You got 406 pages you can read.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You didn't phone it in. It's a book. So I want to say if you zoomed out for a second and you imagine this was a book from someone in the 20s. And it's about this woman who grows up in Baltimore in this crazy situation. Sells dope. Works at Marigold Round. By the way, so many blasts from the past.

Fucking merry-go-round. All the music was on. Merry-go-round. It was like a precursor to The Gap, but it was way cooler. Way cooler. Yeah, there was music blasting. There was a county seat.

Did you have county seat as well? That was another one like merry-go-round. What would we compare merry-go-round to? Like hot toffees? Maybe. Okay, sure, sure. Or HK? Or H&M?, sure. Or H&M? Is that how you say it?

H&M? H&M? H&M or 20... 20 Forever. 21 Forever. Forever 21. Forever 21. Something like that.

You know, they would have like satin zebra stripes shirts. Yeah. Wow. If you and I went to the mall... With shoulder pads. And I want to see

where the hot girls were at, I went straight to merry-go-round. I got no business And I want to see where the hot girls were at I went straight to Marigold Round I got no business in there See, so the hot girls went That's where the hustlers went To shop for their girlfriends Yeah Yeah, it was like the place

If you had money Oh, it was expensive shit Well Lower middle It wasn't that it was expensive In the same way Forever 21 is Yeah, yeah, yeah But it was like That was expensive in the same way forever 21 yeah yeah but it was like that was the place that you went to go get your going out clothes yeah you're going out clothes you're going to the club an outfit they were in malls generally so it was pretty sanitized

and then marigold was like pulling you in this pulse of vibrancy exactly i can't believe you worked at because that's where all the hustlers came into in baltimore that's where you met all the big dogs wow that's right yeah it was like the lobby of the four seasons on the street level yeah yeah yeah our equivalent yeah exactly okay but it's a story about this and i'm using the word little girl affectionately objectively little you're a little girl yeah in a fucking big crazy world at the apex of a big crazy time in baltimore and so if you remove yourself from it and you think about giving your daughter or my daughter a book and going like just peep what happened to this human being in life they started there along the

way they bump into these geniuses these world--class, forever-in-history geniuses. You hung out with Picasso. What? You were best friends with Picasso. Tupac. Oh, I was like, wait. No, I mean, this is like legendary. You time-traveled?

Yeah. Just the journey in itself, like as an odyssey, it's pretty bonkers. Thank you. Yeah. I hope you can zoom up just a little bit a little bit look how much shit happened even my daughter said it she's like you've lived like five different lifetimes in one you know yes you got a short trip on this planet and you packed every fucking thing into it and let me tell you this book is not even that's just one line like there's so

much that i've left sure the journey it's been full-on i've been really blessed in that way yeah so you move around a ton let's just start there there's like really no stability happening dad's around for a year yeah my father was kind of in and out of my life because he had really they both did have big substance abuse yeah just take your pick crack addict and a heroin addict yeah arguing over Arguing over who's going to... Yeah, exactly. I talk about it in the book. Told me at seven, I can't be your dad.

You know, I'm a criminal and a drug addict. And I was like, okay, that makes sense. You got logic on your side. Yeah, I was like, that makes sense. And at that time, he wasn't in my life enough for me to miss him. I was just happy that somebody was telling me the truth. That somebody wasn't trying to act like it was something that it wasn't. Yeah. Get one over. Yeah. Because already this is a chip on our shoulder. Exactly. Don't try to get one over. Exactly.

So that's where I was even at seven. So I had an appreciation for like, thank you. So I wouldn't even say the dad story is a heartbreak. For me, the first real heartbreaker is Tony. My bonus dad. I mean, this fucking breaks my heart. Yeah. Because you had a chance. I had a chance. Will would say to me all the time, he was like, you know, your issues with your father.

And I was like, it's not him. And then I realized it was Tony. All of that abandonment. So what age was this? So he came into my life when I was nine. And then my grandmother passed away when I was 13. Right after she passed away, he divorced my mother. Yeah.

But let's set this at age two. Other than granddad, which shockingly and probably is an anesthesiologist, a black anesthesiologist in the 70s. But other than him, we don't have a lot of folks that are super dependable. Well, it was him and my father's father, Grant Pinkett. I had my two granddads. Oh, grandparents. Yeah.

Yeah, you were close with dad's dad and mom's mom. Yeah, exactly. Fuck it, let's sidebar for a second. Grandparents. Lifesavers. For me, I don't have them. I don't know. Right?

Yes, ba-ba-ba, fuck. Yeah. If you don't have them i don't know right yes papa bob fuck yeah if you don't get to witness someone with no ulterior motives that just wants to love you there it is okay so you got granddads but the men i don't know but tony arrives and tony's a lawyer and he's gonna work for the state prosecutor he's still a lawyer today. Very successful in Baltimore. Oh, he is? Yes. Oh, that's wonderful. What age do you start becoming aware that mom's struggling? It was probably six. You know, you find the little weed seeds all over the house. These kind of like, you stay out here, we're going in this room. Right. You know, adult stuff's happening. Everything was cool. But I think as I got older, and specifically once, it was just she and I. That's when it got really extreme.

Nodding off in the house, burned cigarettes in all the furniture, the white powder on the dresser and spoons. Spoons is a giveaway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she became a nurse she's a nurse she's an rn she was at one time head nurse at a women's clinic in the inner city you would have never she was the most high functioning heroin addict we would talk about this the other day because somebody was like i never knew knew a high-functioning heroin addict. And I was like, damn, she's the only high-functioning heroin addict I knew. My mother was like, no, there's plenty.

There are. I get into arguments with people on here all the time. Like, you think you have an idea what an addict is? No, no. The addict's your boss. The addict owns that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Real talk. There ain't no type. But that is impressive. Mom was juggling all that stuff. But anyways, Tony arrives and you guys are immediately thick as thieves yeah I had so much fun with him it seemed like I spent more time with him during that time than with my mother like when I think about that scope of time I'm like where was Adrian well she was studying and working yeah on the weekends we were off driving to Boston

and seeing some of his college friends. And then we were driving to New York. Like we were always on the road. We were always on the go, go, go, go, go. And so we had a really good time together. He's got to be your first glimpse of, oh, I'm going to be able to go out and devour stuff. Like I'm going to be able to leave here and I'm able to go places because he's on fire to be honest with you when i'm thinking about it now i feel like there are a lot of characteristics in tony that will has sure well there's some major patterns yeah pat your dad is tall and charismatic as fuck right handsome and funny yeah well we all do that, right? Yeah. They're both funny, charismatic, go-getters, ambitious. Smart as hell.

Smart as hell. Want to travel. Just on the go, go, go. Let's go, go, go. Fun, fun, fun. Do you think Tony was taking you to some of these places because he was trying to remove you from what he knew was a not great situation? No. I think that he just wanted a road

dog a road yeah yeah yeah someone chat with him yeah exactly he's like you're here with me i can't leave you home so let's go you know he was just ready to go but they get divorced and then he has full intention and even tells you like don't worry't worry, your mom and I are splitting up, but you and I aren't. Yeah, we aren't. But what happened? He hooks up with this woman. He's trying to get his life together. They get engaged.

And she calls me and she says, you need to find your real dad. Don't call him anymore. Oh. Oh, man. You had a shot. I know. I know. You're going to make me cry. Don shot. I know, I know. You're going to make me cry.

Don't make me cry, Dax. You deserve to be cried over. Don't make me cry. But yes, she really tried to terrorize my mom and I. I mean, at that time, I was young. Thank God she didn't try that when I was 16. Right. For everyone.

That would have been a different story. After that, the situation with my mom was turning dire. It was really bad. I would imagine post-divorce, it must have ramped up. Yeah, post-divorce. And her mother, who was her everything. And probably between Tony and Marion were the only two people that could keep her accountable. Once they were both gone, nobody's looking, just gone.

You assess pretty early. You don't want to be dependent on a dude. Yeah. Do you know at what age? Well, my grandmother from a very young age always told me, have your own, do not depend on a man. Now, mind you, she was married to a very successful doctor, but was a social worker and always worked. That messaging was really strong for her because

of what happened to her mother. Her mother was put into an insane asylum by her father and just left there. You used to be able to do that. You didn't like your wife. Yeah, exactly. My wife's crazy. Let's go to dinner. Right, exactly. This don't look like a restaurant. This looks like Bellevue. Yeah. We're going to drop you off. She just drilled that into my mind. So at a very early age, that was the mission. Now, I guess the thing I'm most curious about is

when you decide like, I'm going to get mine and I have to, cause that's going to be how I protect myself. And I don't give a fuck how I get it. A lot of people are in that situation. They don't decide like, I'm just going to do whatever it takes. Yeah. You probably can't remember a moment or anything that you decided, I'm not really too concerned about the rules. Yeah, I think I've never been concerned about the rules.

Okay. I mean, I was a rule breaker from day one. You're a rascal. I was a rascal. day one. You're a rascal. I was a rascal. Nobody was following the rules in your life. Your dad left. Like there are no rules. It's free for all.

And then even in my structured environment, my grandmother was a West Indian woman who took me to the Ethical Society on Sundays. That was unheard of. What black family goes to the ethical society? We should have been at a Baptist church somewhere, right? Sure, sure, yeah. My grandmother was constantly breaking the rules. Whatever you thought that a black woman, and specifically a West Indian black woman, she was surely going way against the grain. I guess maybe my thought or my suspicion was it's a pretty perfect timing that at 13,

you get this boyfriend who's 16, you're sneaking out and you're spending the entire night at 7-Eleven where he works. Your average 13-year-old's not pulling an all-nighter to hang with a dude at 7-Eleven. That's also the age Tony splits and grandma dies. Yes. So I could imagine at least you being in that situation going, guess what?

Life's not fair. So I'm not fucking playing either. Yeah. I mean, I was just like, nobody's here. I like this dude at 7-Eleven. I'm here in this house by myself. Fuck it. I'm going down to go see him.

Yeah. And just feeling like, all right, well, I'm on my own now. I'm going to do me. Everybody else is doing them. You had a pretty healthy fear that mom might also stop providing. Yeah, I had a pretty healthy fear that she might not make it. I could get that call. I'll never forget when my Aunt Karen, who's her older sister, was the only one that was just like, get your shit together.

Well, she herself at that point is in recovery, right? Yeah, she had been in recovery for 11 years or so. She wanted guardianship and that was always an issue. I could really see the level of my mother's addiction through my aunt because she was just so scared and constantly on my mother about getting in rehab, getting her shit together. You don't get your shit together. I'm taking Jada.

I was just like, I'm not going to worry about all of that. I'm going to make sure I'm good. You're going to figure out a little safety net for yourself. Yeah. And at this point you move because there's times where you're at grandma and grandpa's. There's times where you guys are living with Tony all together. And then at some point, I think in around 13 ish, you move into Baltimore. We move into a row house that's not too far from my aunt, about 10 minutes.

And it's just she and I. It hasn't been just she and I in a long time. And there we're seeing dealers, we're seeing people make money. Not there specifically. I got to go back to that block when I did the Today Show. And that block was such a family oriented block. It was everything past that block, everything in my other worlds around me in Baltimore. How far from Cherry Hill is it? Oh, Cherry Hill is way far away from where I live. Cherry Hill is a whole world of its own.

It's a peninsula, one way in, one way out. And so this is where some of my friends lived that I used to rock with. That used to be my stomping grounds. Just remembered one of the other parallels we love roller skating yes in december i've rented the rink like it's upcoming i can't wait oh that's great so right you got your fingers in some different yeah all these little sub cultures that i'm in so you're meeting like small time hustlers and you're meeting players. At the roller skating rink, at, you know.

Merry-go-round. At merry-go-round. 7-Eleven. At 7-Eleven. They're all around. Druid Hill Park every Sunday. The clubs, definitely near my neighborhood. Up there on Park Heights, up there on Liberty.

I mean, you name it. BIPOC, Greenmount Avenue. That's East. That was. His zone was rough. I don't mess with East Baltimore. Okay. BIPOC, Greenmount Avenue. That's East. That was. His zone was rough. I don't mess with East Baltimore. Okay. Yeah.

Oh, wow. All right. That's a whole nother world. But my peer group, that's how we rolled. And then simultaneous to all of this, you're getting very interested in dance. You're getting interested in acting and performing. And you get into the Baltimore School of the Arts and this is Tony 2.0 you got another shot yeah like as shitty as everything is also

there's these kind of lightning bolts of opportunity yeah a lot of lightning bolts because I would audition for different gigs like PBS special, and I would get these gigs. And then, you know, I was hair modeling, and so I would be in magazines. I was always doing something. And even in Baltimore during that time, I was popping. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. And even Pac and I,

there's this Mondawmin Mall poster that he and I got called in to do. It was like a gig. So you knew him when you were that young? They met in the school. I met Pac when I was in 10th grade. It was like a game. So you knew him when you were that young? They met in the school. I met Pac when I was in 10th grade. Oh, wow. At this school.

Yes. Oh, my God. Did you know they were best friends? No. Right. There's so much not to know. No. By the way, I knew that part.

I don't know all the other stuff that maybe you knew that I didn't know until the book. I know some stuff. Yeah. I missed all the later stuff. Wow. Oh, my gosh. I knew about the Pac stuff. Nice. all the later stuff. I knew about the POC stuff. All the later stuff, whatever.

Man, I welled up a few different times in the book. Well, you cried yesterday talking about it. I was talking to Monica about it and I got fucked up. Boy, hearing you describe meeting that young boy with that smile and that charisma. And that peanut head. Yeah, and he hadn't grown into himself like imagine him before he's the dude on the album cover yes it's so sweet just a little boy yeah have you watched it monica the hughes brothers did a documentary on him i haven't

watched it yet because i was just in the midst of this book and so i gotta get into i imagine too like if someone made a doc about my best friend aaron weakly i don't know that i could go go into it not on guard. How are you going to tell a story about Aaron Weakley? Like I should be telling the story. Like protective. Yeah. Also incredibly interesting backgrounds that the Hughes brothers and Pac had this huge falling out. There was like a fistfight on set. Yet they ended up doing, or one of the Hughes brothers ended up doing this doc and kind of finding his way back into life. That's what's kind of special about the doc. But what I didn't know about his story was the mom is one of the most impressive humans to ever live. Yes.

She defended the Black Panthers. Fifteen of them were being tried by the U.S. government. And she, at like 20 years old, represented them and fucking won through this insane case oh my god whoa yeah she was incredible in my opinion in a lot of ways pock was just the male version of his mom you know i didn't know his father but faye was brilliant and when she started speaking in the room she was as charismatic and she was so dynamic too powerful yeah she was incredible woman so his mom's also struggling with addiction yeah just like your mom she's brilliant she's capable and she's drowning so you two meet you guys are both fucking little sparklers yeah and you got these parents and then you become thick as thieves

immediately it's so sweet yeah we became family because it was like okay you know when you create these unspoken contracts with one another it's like i got you you got me we gonna be good there's a lot of different overarching themes but the one that i can't escape is masculinity, femininity. It's such a force in this book. It's happening right away when we meet Pac in your story. He's too cute and charismatic for the dope dealers who got all the power on his street. So he's living in abject fear. Right. Because they don't like that he's feeling himself. Yeah, they don't like him.

And he's too tiny to do anything about that. It wasn't even about him being tiny. It was about he was new. So he didn't have his soldiers. It was just him. But that's the heartbreaking part of the masculinity trap that we all grew up in, which is like, here's a kid who's so sparkly. And what he's got to dedicate a lot of his time to is thinking how to not get beat down at all times. And not get caught up in all of that.

And not stomp out his light. Exactly. Yet don't shine too bright around this person. Yep. And then, I mean, I have my own opinions about his story. I don't know if you would be offended by him or not. It's so tragic to me because he was in such pursuit of feeling safe. Yeah.

Absolutely. And he took on this thug thing way too much. He could have went this way and been Prince, and he went this way and was with Suge. That breaks my heart, and that's that masculinity trap. Yeah. And I don't think it's his fault. Like, when I hear where he was growing up

and how scared he, whether he was showing you or not. I think he was also looking for his tribe, his army. He had this thing about loyalty, family, and i think that he was looking to feel safe but i also feel like he was looking to have love so he was always looking for these different forms of family unconditional unconditional just that ride or die do you think in some way he felt robbed that he didn't live in the time where the Panthers were a thing? Really, his destiny was to have been like his mom and been in a group like that? Talk about family.

Yeah, I don't necessarily feel like he felt robbed because it was still very much a part. It was alive. And he was very passionate about it. I think for him, it was more his frustration of the messaging kind of disappearing because what his mother was fighting for was still in full effect. like Tupacalypse. If you listen to Tupacalypse, that is my favorite Tupac album. Okay. Because it is quintessential Pac as far as his messaging, as far as what he wants for his community. He was such a freedom fighter. And so I feel like sometimes he felt that it was just him. He felt alone sometimes with his passion and his concern for the community. So yeah, and I just think that once he went to jail, a lot changed after that.

Most people don't get improved by jail. Malcolm X seemed to somehow, but in general. A lot changed. And then I think his anger just kind of got the best of him. And then his anger was preyed upon, in my opinion. Yeah. It was exploited. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Sasha hated sand, the way it stuck to things for weeks. So when Maddie shared a surf trip on Expedia Trip Planner, he hesitated. Then he added a hotel with a

cliffside pool to the plan and they both spent the week in the water. You were made to follow your whims. We were made to help find a place on the beach with a pool and a waterfall and a soaking tub and of course a great shower. Expedia made to travel. Exactly. He'd be preaching. It's enormously impressive what he was verbally. Yes. When people ask me, what do you miss about Pac? Being able to sit in front of him and him just educate me. And me just hear a sermon, a lecture, and Pac would talk for hours.

You know what I mean? And I would talk for hours. You know what I mean? And I would never get tired. And he taught me so much about the Black Panther Party, about the Black Power movement, because I grew up understanding civil rights. Because that's what my grandmother, just the civil rights movement, because she was a supporter of Martin Luther King and that whole thing. And so I was very well educated in regards to the social justice issues, but from a different lens. So when Pac came into my life, it was like, oh, nah. Well, I think we can say very clearly your grandma was in the Martin Luther King silo. And then there was the Malcolm King silo. Yeah.

And then there was the Malcolm X silo. And there's just two different silos. And what's crazy, and I can fully admit this, in the 80s in Detroit, when I would see footage of Malcolm X, I'd be like, ooh, this is a little scary for me. Right. Then I get educated. And then, I don't know, I think it was maybe like six years ago, I'm watching some more footage of Malcolm X and I go, oh, my Lord, he was 30 years ahead of where we all figured out. Like he's talking about redlining and generational wealth and all these things that we now accept. But it was so way ahead of his time. Yeah, I'm embarrassed. You know, it took me that long to recognize.

Well, it was the propaganda. It was the narrative about him. Yes. And luther didn't scare white people i mean he scared some crazy racist southerners but up in the north we were like we love martin luther king he just had a different approach it was but yeah pock was just i've missed that about him you know what i'm so glad you acknowledge because my first thought when i know you two are friends is like, how on earth are those two not dating? They're the most beautiful humans in a three-state area. They're friends.

Why aren't they fucking? This is impossible. Especially as teenagers. Yes. Horny teenagers. Trust me. Pac and I question that a whole lot, too. Trust me.

You're like, should we? But you have a moment on the porch. yeah but you have a moment on the porch yeah we got a moment on the porch he's like you know maybe i'm like pock fuck it kiss me yeah and he does and it's like for the both of us okay i always want to make that very clear that we both pull back like what the fuck now listen you're gonna have to acknowledge that most of us in the real world are gonna go not a possibility there's a lot of women

going there ain't no bad pot kiss and I'm going no way someone kissed you and was like oh my sister I promise you it was like so disgusting and you know what I think that God just made it so. Yeah. Yeah, he helped you guys.

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, really helped us. You need family. You don't need a bad relationship. Right, exactly. And God was like, you two will give each other a special kind of ruin. I need something else to be going on here.

You guys want to hate each other in six weeks? Yeah, exactly. Because that's what was going to happen. Yeah. You were spared. Yeah.

And you acknowledge it. What's great about it is now that the romance thing is completely settled, now vulnerability and a lack of vanity can exist. Yeah.

That's the gift of not being romantic. That is the gift. And, you know, honestly, as we got older, the way that we could pull each other's coattails, specifically once we got to Hollywood. Yeah, I bet. Because he would look at me like, chick, I knew you went. Don't trip.

Right. And I would look at him like, hey, all that. It's cool in the video. But it's me, bruh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. all that it's cool in the video but it's me bruh yeah yeah and so that became a really powerful component in our relationship you guys were tethered to each other yeah we pulled each other through some stuff so i'm gonna kind of fast forward through drug dealing just because let's just say for the record you were slinging dope which is how could you not have with all of that other i mean to me it's like 11 and 15 i can see where one wouldn't sleep dope right i guess but it's

been in your life since you were little yeah but it does get serious we need to say a couple things it's cute and you got money and you're buying friend stuff. You're even buying pox and stuff in a very delicate way so he doesn't feel emasculated again, the masculinity thing. Yeah, exactly. But then inevitably, as happens, real shit starts happening. So you go to the Cherry Hill spot. Yeah, so I set up shop in this apartment that's on the first floor

so I can serve outside of the window and through the door with a chain. And so somebody that I had dealt with in the past and situation didn't go well then, I should have known, but he came and he wanted to buy a certain amount of Coke. So I was like, well, let me see your cash. So he had this big wad of cash and i was like okay are you serious so i go get the product that he needs i open the door i'm about to pass him the product and two guys from the side of that door kick the door in one puts a nine millimeter to my head the other one just points this nine millimeter at me until the dude that has the gun to my head is like go check the spot see what else is in here and they robbed me there's also a weird woman whose apartment it is that you're just kind

of subletting yeah exactly that part like if i'm shooting the comedy version the fact that there's a civilian in the mix is crazy well it was her apartment and she ducks under the table i fall back into this chair quite like what you're sitting in deck, but it doesn't have the grandma print on it. Yeah, you could have used a little grandma print in that moment. Oh, could I? And so he runs through the spot to see if there's any more stash in there. But the guy that has the gun in my head, he takes all the jewelry on me. I mean, I've got anklets.

I got all these rope chains and rings. And I never went to Cherry Hill with all that shit on me i mean i've got anklets i got all these rope chains and rings and i never went to cherry hill with all that shit on me i was stopping for a minute yeah because you had some mentors that advised against this yes he takes all my cash he takes everything and leaves but this is an interesting thing because again i have found myself in this situation it's like i can handle anything i can handle anything i can handle, I have found myself in this situation. It's like, I can handle anything. I can handle anything. I can handle anything. Oh, wow, we're in this situation now. This is bigger than one can handle, I'd say.

This is a situation where you pee yourself? Yes, I peed on myself, yes. Which is not what you would have predicted you would have done in that situation, right? Oh, hell no. And I had a gun on me. And you probably, in your fantasy, you would have pulled that.

I would have pulled the gun. And that's the first thing my homeboy said when I called him. He said, what did you do with your gun? I said, I didn't think about you. And that's when I realized, I'm like, yo, you are not built for this. That's what I'm trying to get at. We have these moments where you get right up to the moment. And you're like, wait, are we all the way in?

Are we in Scarface? This is not for me is this what you really want to do i didn't even think about using that gun that he gave me right and then that's felt very quickly thereafter and almost as a result of that you find yourself getting stuck up again in a basement very shortly thereafter yeah I get stuck up again helping out someone to move some product. And I just felt good that I was still trusted, you know,

after getting robbed and this whole thing. And they were like, yo, come with me to move this. And we get stuck up again. And I'm like, what the fuck? How many signals would you like?

Thank God. How many more do you need? I know. How many more do you need how many more do you need i got endless signals and then my mother found out yeah oops and then the wrath of adrian can you imagine like i'm reading through my book and i'm like through everything i've been through she still scares me right out of everything yeah i'm not scared of the police. I'm scared of when my mother comes and gets me at the police station. She also doesn't have the moral high ground. Right?

What are they? But she's always been. Protector. Yeah. At the most pivotal moments of my life, Adrienne showed up with that cape, which is crazy. Yeah. Was she clean at this time or no?

No. Okay. got it. Not even close. It was a very sad story about her stopping by Marigold around to put a coat on, lay away, try to win your affection a little bit, and then nodding off in front of your boss. Yeah, that was a rough one.

But again, right, you're in that world where it's like nobody there is unfamiliar with this. Yeah, it's kind of like what I try to explain to people. We grew up in a war zone. And as extreme as those cases seem, I know people that that's Disneyland. That would have been a good week. That's just what it is, right? People are like, weren't you scared?

When you're in that mindset, that's what this is. But this is where it's misleading because you've also already been dude rolls up in a new three series. Got a new car. Come for a ride. Let's go to McDonald's. Car chase immediately. Car stolen. Fucking full blown police chase. Police chase.

Yeah. Out of a movie. And again, you're brushing them all off. Yeah. I know this well. Right. Yeah. And you're not even considering that they're piling up in you.

No. Those adrenal dumps thinking, oh, I might die. They're almost fun. Not even almost. They're fun. That's what you know. And it wakes you the fuck up. Yeah.

It's a high. You do your best thinking. You're at your brightest, your sharpest. All those things, to experience that, it's kind of nice. Yeah. And so that was an addiction that I had to unravel. Just being used to chaos, that's been a huge part of my journey. Yeah, because you kind of feel dead.

If you don't have it. Anything short of that stuff. So if it's not some high tension or just some craziness going on, you're like, I'm not living right now, so let me create something. Yeah. Every single trip to the bar in Detroit, it was like 80% chance we're throwing down tonight. There's a level of excitement. I didn't go to bars without thinking that was what was likely to be on the table.

But see, that's what happened to us when we used to go to clubs. In Baltimore, it's like, you know it's going to be a shootout. Yes. You know it's going to be a shootout, right? And people are like, well, why would you? I was like, that's what we did. That's where all the hot people were. That's entertainment.

Yeah. That's entertainment when you grow up. You're in a war zone. You're not getting out. This is what it is. You adapt. Yeah. And you get that crowd thing where it's like, shit's popping when you grow up. You're in a war zone. You're not getting out. This is what it is. You adapt. And you get that crowd thing where it's like shit's popping up. Things are happening.

You see these people are running over here, and you're figuring out where you're standing. I'm going to get out of here, but I'm going to get close and watch. All that stuff's so exciting. It's just part of the upbringing. But when mom catches you selling dope, you had already been accepted to the university of north carolina school of arts which you are not going to no get real why would you go there yeah but why'd you apply then i didn't oh so here's what happened my theater department head they came to baltimore School for the Arts to audition their scouting. And he was like, I signed you up. You are going to audition.

And I'm saying to myself, fine, I'll audition, but I'm never going to go. So whatever. And so I audition and I get accepted. And I'm like, oopsies. What? Cool. I'm not going. But that mom is like, you're going.

Pack your shit. It wasn't even like, you're going. You're getting sentenced to college. Yeah, you're getting sentenced're going. Pack your shit. It wasn't even like, you're going. You're getting sentenced to college. Yeah, you're getting sentenced to college. Pack your shit. Also at this Baltimore School of the Arts is Josh Charles. Oh my God. What?

Because she's friends with Josh Charles. Tupac and Josh Charles. This is quite Josh Charles. I love how you described him. I'm so delighted for Charles. You're like, he's the coolest white dude in the whole school. Yeah, he always had been. I'm so delighted for Charles.

You're like, he's the coolest white dude in the whole school. Yeah, he always had been. Because I met Josh in elementary school at Mount Washington Elementary. And I just loved him. He seems cool. He's cool as fuck. That's where he got the swagger. Yeah.

Yeah, if you can pull up and be a white. He's from Baltimore. Yeah. Once he went to New York and he was living the life of a professional actor. Me and my homegirl, Corey Washburn at the time, went to see Josh in New York and kicked it with Josh. Telling the mom they were going to go do an Alexander Technique workshop. And they got busted. You got busted a lot. I did.

I was always getting caught. I was like, the school never called my mother to say I wasn't in school. I never went to school. Why this day? Yes. Right, right. Oh, that's funny. She's like, well, she's on a school trip.

They're like, there is no school trip. But again, here's the sprinkle of fairy dust, which is to meet a kid at Mount Washington who you see actually went and started making a living at it. That's invaluable. Yeah, it is. Meeting Pac. you take those two people out of your sphere it changes what you might think is possible oh absolutely and just having a friend like pock at the time who was really constantly reminding me like he knew

what i was doing he didn't get on me about it but he would always remind me like you really got that thing like you could be a superstar you're doing he wouldn't say that he just would remind me you can really do this he understood which is why he didn't go at me about it but he would just remind me and so even when I went to college Pac was like like, all right, now, keep your nose clean. If you need anything, you call me. So the tide kind of turned a little bit between us where he was like, I got you. You guys beautifully took turns. Yeah.

We flip-flopped a lot. Yeah, yeah. That's really sweet. This has no business in the interview, but I'm going to own it. I, like every other 18, there's nothing unique about this. Right. But I was probably 18 when I saw Menace Society. Oh, okay. the interview but i'm gonna own it i like every other 18 there's nothing unique about this right but i was probably 18 when i saw menace society oh okay how old were you when you did it i was 22 no i might have been 20 okay then i was even younger yeah so i like everyone else right fell

so head over heels in love with you oh no no i was like i didn't think they made humans that look like this oh wow so i'm reading the book kind of just selfishly in the back of my mind it's like she doesn't seem to like white dudes then john pops up thank god i found my way into the story you know i was feeling very left out of the story and i was like okay weird goofy tall john artist mushrooms i'm like i could have played that role in high school. So I was comforted by it. I know you didn't go there all the way, but I was very comforted that there was a John in the mix.

Let me tell you, John and he's still a very good friend of mine to this day. Was he from college? From high school. The great art school. He was from Baltimore School for the Arts. And he was also Tupac's best friend. The three of them were a triumphant. Yeah.

They'd do shrooms together and get artistic. Yeah. We were the three musketeers. Oh, so fun. It was actually Pac that I asked. I was like, I need you to get to know this guy, John. I want to make sure he's not on no weirdo shit. Sure.

You never know with the white boys. Exactly. Never know. Is he okay? As a wingman, he then fell for him. He was my wingman. Yeah. Right?

And so then we all became so cool, and then me and John started dating. Anyways, this is a very encouraging part of the book. I don't want to pass over it. You know how you said people take different things from the book? Exactly. That's what Zach took from the book. Yep. I'm as egocentric as anyone.

I'm reading this book like like how does this affect me okay so you do a year at north carolina and then you decide to go to la all the other bullshit in baltimore that's in the past we're now going all in on acting and so you moved to la and what probably felt long to you was very short. As far as what? Arrival and working. Oh, no, it didn't feel long to me at all. Oh, did it? Okay, good. Oh, yeah. No, it felt very short.

It went very well for you. It went really quickly. I was eight years before I had an agent. Yes, I knew. Listen, trust me. I was very lucky when I came to Hollywood. And the only reason why I got an agent is because I used Kenan's name. That's right. I was like, and I asked Kenan respectfully. I was like, can I use your name?

She had a girlfriend who was dating Kenan. Ivory Wayans at the time. Yeah. Now there's another Kenan in the mix. Thompson. Yeah, that's right. Oh, Kenan, yes. Yeah, yeah.

So through her, you come to know Kenan. Right. And so he from the gate was like this little wild child right here you know what i mean you probably look like a hood rat he just thought i was funny he thought i was very brazen and bold he liked that the first time i met him was like you need to make me a fly girl right because you were a dancer i was a dancer yeah so he was like pausing all of that yeah but we became friends and i said so keenan can i use your name to get an agent and the first person i call nancy rainford who had this small tiny agency on melrose i call her and i go hi miss rainford

my name is jada and keenan ivory Wayans told me that I should call you. She said, Keenan Ivory Wayans? She said, he knows me? I said, yes. He said, you're a very talented agent. This is such a great technique. She said, come see me now. And so when I walk in the door, I see she's a black woman.

I'm like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. I was like, this is great. And she also had Michael Rapaport. So she had the two of us and she helped us at the beginning of our careers. Yeah, Rapaport would drive her around to auditions and stuff. Michael was my homeboy. Me and Michael had such a good time together. It was great.

The big pivotal thing then next is A Different World. Yeah. What's her name? I've written it all down, but I'm not going to glance at that. I've challenged myself not to look at it. Debbie Allen. Debbie Allen. You're doing good, Dax.

Okay, thank you. You're doing good. Thank you. I'm getting an A- so far on this final exam I crammed for. Debbie Allen, yeah. She's inspirational. This is the woman that I was looking up to. Debbie Allen. She writes. She's a producer. She's an actress, dancer, choreographer, director. I mean, there's nothing the woman can't do. And I'm like, I want to be that. role and it's a college student who has contracted hiv after the audition she's like who are you tell me a little something about yourself she's like i want to know your story so i'm like i'm from

baltimore i'm gonna be the next debbie allen she cracked up and so we had this whole long conversation she said listen i'm not gonna give you this starring role, but I'm going to bring you on this show as a series regular. What? Yep. That is. Isn't that crazy? And so then she created Lena James based on my story. Wow.

So here's the freaky, suspicious part of the universe, which is it's almost like it insists on homeostasis. So it's going to give you a bunch of bullshit. But it's also going to give you these crazy, impossible streaks of luck. Both are impossible. Yes, it's all impossible, but it's just like the universe is like, ooh, we really kind of piled a bunch on her.

Let's give her some of this. This is great. Exactly. It's always been this. Yeah, so everything's happening, and then I have to imagine it came as a great surprise to you that right at the peak of everything going way better than you could have ever imagined, you have your first kind of, I don't know what we'd even call it, a panic attack.

I think it was a nervous breakdown. A nervous breakdown. I really do. And it came out of nowhere. I'm not ready for this. I have it for sidebar. Yeah. Vivian's.

Vivian's. Vivian's. Vivian's. Vivian's. Vivian's. Vivian's. When I met Kristen, she lived right above Vivian's and we ate breakfast there every morning for three years. We just missed you because you had just. Yes. I lived right up the street on Fredonia. Yeah. Okay.

When I read Vivian's, I was like, oh, this is fantastic. Yes. And I used to eat there all the time. Life is good. You got your own place. Yes. You're eating at Vivian's. Yes. Oh, this is fantastic. Yes. And I used to eat there all the time. Life is good. You got your own place. You're eating at Vivian's. Yes. Oh, boy.

You stopped panic attack for Vivian's, which is really interesting. Because we shouldn't have a nervous breakdown. Exactly. And Vivian's was a really special spot. People who rolled at Vivian's during that era. Yeah. I turned to Kristen when I was reading that part, and I go, you know, Jada ate at Vivian's during that era yeah i turned to kristen when i was reading that part and i go you know jada ate at vivian's all the time and she said did she eat the kb

special i'm like girl i don't think the kb special was there yeah she had a breakfast sandwich named after her that's her claim to fame yeah better than hollywood star but i do bring that up not just totally frivolously the point i'm making is everything can be going its best but the stuff that you've not dealt with that has piled up it doesn't really give a fuck you think that's the lie yeah i get all this stuff i'm gonna fix all this stuff i've been ignoring that's exactly what i thought i had so much energy to become a star yeah right you're feeling like real yeah and like i'm in charge and then I get it. I'm in the game. I've done a different world. I'm doing movies and I'm not happy. It was

the most painful existential disappointment because it's that idea of thinking once I made it, all my problems would be solved. You know, I had the very exact same experience. After eight years of struggling, I get punked. It's a hit. Then I go straight into this movie without a paddle. That's a hit. Then I go straight into a Mike Judge movie. Then I'm about to start this movie, Zathura. I'm getting paid a fortune. I go to Hawaii. I smoke meth for five days. I get in a car accident. The cops are involved. I'm trying to fly home. I'm so sick. I don't think I can get back to LA. I have a layover in San Francisco. I'm at this bar drinking Jack and Dice, like as many as I can just to get on the flight.

I think other people from AA are going to see me. And there is the proverbial mirror, like right in front of my face. And I'm like, wow, man, we got everything we wanted. People recognize you. You got more money than you thought you'd ever have. And I think I want to die for real. I'm so glad you shared that story with me because that's the first time anybody's ever said that.

Because I've still to this day, I'm like, what happened? And now it's really scary because you got all the stuff. So you know there's no more shit to get. There's no more shit to get. Now I'm really hopeless. Before, if I was a star, I'd feel good. Before, if I had money, I'd feel good. If I had this girl, I'd feel good. But now we I had money, I'd feel good. If I had this girl, I'd feel good.

But now we've got all of it. And it's scary. It crashed on me. In one second, I'm shaking. I'm like this oceanic amount of emotion that I don't even know where it's coming from. Yeah, because you've been ignoring it. I've been ignoring it. And I don't even know.

Right, it's not here. The moon's out. Exactly. And this overwhelming feeling of like, I want to die. Yeah. I want out. Because now I know this is my destiny because there's nothing more to throw at this. I, by the grace of God, make it home to Fredonia and call my mother.

And I tell her, I said, you got to come out here right now. I'm going to kill myself. She couldn't, she had to figure out her work situation. So then I was like, light, I need you. MC light, very good friend of mine. I called her cause I was like, I cannot be alone. I do not trust myself alone. Please come here and stay with me. And she was on the first plane. Really quick. How hard is that for you to do? To ask for help? Yeah, to be vulnerable. It's really hard for me to do. I don't ask for help usually.

Unless you're about to die. That's how I knew I was in a bad way. That was a day because I knew if somebody didn't get out there to me right away. Yeah. Dax, I don't know about you, but for me at that time, nobody was talking about mental health.

No. I can imagine what it's like for you as a man. And then for me at that time nobody was talking about mental health no i can imagine what it's like for you as a man and then for me as a black woman the first thing people say is like oh you must be crazy we got to put you in and that's what i thought i was like this is a straight jacket moment yeah yeah something's really wrong with me right because i had no idea that it's some shit we got to deal with but you're okay There's some folks that actually study this. Yeah, and you're going to be okay. But at 21 years old, during a time where mental health was considered a white people thing.

Suicide was like, white people do that. White people go to therapy. White people go to therapy. White people kill themselves. There's a bizarre sense that it's privileged to do that. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Which is crazy. And it's all false.

It's all wrong. But at that time, I felt shame. I felt, I got to hide this. We're going right back to Tony. Who on earth can love this thing? Exactly. That was probably yet another deep, dark moment of just feeling completely and utterly unlovable. It confirms what the shadow's been telling you the whole time.

Exactly. You're not lovable. You're not lovable. You're hot. Yeah. You're not going to be loved. No. So yeah, I went on that journey.

My mom came out and then I called Debbie. Here you go. And she called the doctor and Sally Gregg helped me get to where I needed to be for that time. And you went on Prozac. Yeah. Now here's something that really popped out at me. Again, I'm projecting as I always do, but there's an interesting line in there and I wrote it down. It was saying like, you go on Prozac, you feel some relief. It's working, but you're immediately like, I don't like what it's doing to my libido.

That's common for antidepressants. It is, but I had this thought while I was reading it. Like, we all know that's a thing that you hear. But for the first time, I had this thought, which is like, I'm sure there's some biomechanical things that actually do have an effect on it. But also really curious to ask is, did you not need relief as much? Mm, interesting. Drinking is relief. Sex is relief sex is relief when you're feeling okay and you don't need relief how much of your sexual appetite is about the sexual appetite and how much of about it is just

i need some relief i need to go into a space for an hour where i don't care about anything else i didn't think about that valued and i feel loved and i feel all these things like yeah it's interesting again i'm sure there's a biochemical aspect, but I also think not needing the relief is part of it. That's very interesting because later on also, I would recognize certain addictions I had around sexual energy and how I used sex. Another arousal, another like approval release heightened state open it's the greatest thing on planet earth it is we're getting real i've done all the drugs yeah it is exactly i've had a few nights and nothing compared to that exactly yeah it's powerful escape and i was just talking to will about this this morning, fucking driving here.

No kidding. Just about all of these things that you recognize around that area. I had a couple weird moments, if I could do my sexual inventory for you. One was I was dating a gal who had so much more status than me. She had more money. She had more status. She had more status She had everything I felt very less than in this relationship and I felt very emasculated and we had a fight on the phone i'm gonna add to

Prior to that I had been with a girl for nine years and we had an open relationship, right? This girl was the first one. She's like that's not for me You're gonna be monogamous or i'm not gonna be with you and I was being Monogamous for really the first time in a decade and we got in this fight on the phone and when we hung up i immediately immediately was like horny i was gonna call kelly kelly irvine that's who she was in my phone i was gonna call kelly i knew i could swing by kelly that's not her name oh oh she's from irvine oh oh oh my god oh my god so like i hang up it was an emasculating less than i feel shitty within seconds i have this surge of horniness and i'm like it's too much we're calling kelly and i like get my phone out i'm driving i'm starting to text

and i don't know why for the first time in life i had this clarity that i was like well that was a weird reaction to being in a fight and feeling shitty could my brain be so good that it knows you are hurting right now and i know how to make you not hurt and i know how to make you feel powerful and i know how to make you feel not emasculated it's kelly from irvine let's get her on the phone and i was like whoa yeah this is deeper than i could have ever imagined my brain knows to do that without me being involved and asked me yeah and real horniness visceral horniness not like theoretical yes and i was like oh yeah this brain's trying to protect me at all times from feeling shitty and it has a lot of tools

at its disposal that it will use that we're not even freaking aware of. No. But that was me in my twenties. You even talk about in the book, you're like the dude you like. Like. Then there's a dude you call at 11. That's gonna be a whole other experience.

Right, when I'm bored. That's a get high partner. That exact feeling, I'm not feeling good. I'm gonna call freaking Bobby Irvine. For me having to do that same kind of inventory and figuring that out did you have love addiction at all too or was it mainly in sex i don't think so from your book it doesn't feel like it you didn't live in fantasy i'm not really that more like let's get in the bubble for an hour yeah let's get in the bubble and forget all the things we hate about ourselves that's me and then alcohol is not your friend either

by this point you're starting to recognize that yeah alcohol really isn't you're not and then we meet will yeah the savior prince yes because my new prozac. Yes. So you stopped taking Prozac. I stopped taking Prozac because the Savior Prince came in. Yeah, and what a good one you picked. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. I got to say, side note to everything i don't know if you just protected them or it's just who he is but reading this book made me like him so much i don't know him i've never met him but i'm like i really like this guy i also find myself somewhere in this spectrum between the two of you because i'll tell you what feels very familiar is the courtship between you two and what glimpses

you give me into the relationship is very similar to Chris and I. Right. Because it's universal. But I think he and I have a similar thing

which is I don't really care what mood you're in. I've got enough jokes for you. Oh God, Dax, no. Yeah, I'm going to tease you. No, Dax.

I'm going to figure out the thing and we are going to listen, we're both walking out of this room. You will be laughing. I don't really care how long that takes, because I'm here to do it. Oh, God. Does it drive her crazy? She likes it, I think. I don't know.

Monica's observed it a lot. I don't like it. Right. I'll say that. Where was that? He's getting better at it, though. He is. He's getting better.

He's getting more grounded, where he goes, okay, this is serious talk time. Well, I would imagine, I've never met him, psychoanalyze him from afar. For me, when people are upset, danger's around the corner. I can't have it. If mom's upset, we're about to marry a new guy, we're about to move to a new town. I got all the tools to regulate you so that I don't end up in a situation I don't want to be in. And that's him. Okay. Yeah. And it's so uncomfortable for me to be around someone that I'm afraid is going to make a crazy decision

because they're emotional. That's him. We'll get to the end of the book at some point. How old was I when I met Will? 23. Willow's age. My daughter. Isn't that nuts? That's another thing, right? When you write a book like this, you start getting real about how old you were in all these situations.

Yes, I'm looking at Willow like, what the fuck? You were making a permanent life decision? Yes, I was like a 23? Willow's a baby. In two years, if she came to me

and she's like, I'm about to marry this guy. He has a child. He flew me to Jamaica. And he's fresh out of a marriage. And I'm pregnant. And we're going to get married. I'd be like, what?

Yeah. I'm going to put a divorce attorney on retainer now. I'm like, no. You're not going to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I thought I was so old all the time. Oh, my god.

Yes. That's what actually, I don't know if you've had this too, but that's what really kind of brought my childhood trauma into focus is like seeing my kids get to this age where i already know this happened and in my mind i was big enough for all that yep but i look at these little girls and i'm like no no no no no you're not big enough for that you don't think about that no i think i'm 30 my whole childhood yeah we had to but it's bullshit i look at these little people and it's like no no, no one can be there. No. I still have a hard time seeing the little Jada that had to deal with all of that. How about when Willow was 13 and you imagine she would have

crossed Baltimore to go to 7-Eleven? When you first were talking about our daughters, I thought that's where you were going to go throughout this whole book. I'm thinking about Willow at every stage of my life. That's the only way that I can make sense of when people are like, you shouldn't have been going through that at that age. And I go, let me put Willow in that. And I go, you know what? You're right. Yes.

And I don't know what your conclusion about that is. But if I am to admit I shouldn't have been in that situation or I wasn't big enough to it, I have to admit I was vulnerable and I have to admit i'm not indomitable and if you know i'm not indomitable then i'm at risk now because i need you to think move to someone else i'm still trying to grapple with that fact just in myself i don't want myself to believe that yeah right yeah it's too scary it's too scary. It's too scary. I'm like, no. You keep having these panther analogies in your book. Yeah.

And it's really, really funny because my therapist over the last couple years who have fallen so hard for it, he has this thing he's told me. And he's like, listen, here's what we're trying to get to. You're in a room. A panther enters. And you just look at the panther. Make eye contact with the panther. But you're not going to try to scare the panther away because the panther wants and you just look at the panther make eye contact with the panther but you're not going to try to scare the panther away because the panther wants to fucking eat you and you're not going to run from the panther because he's going to eat you you're just going

to look at the panther in the eyes and let it walk around you yeah and i'm like oh my god that is the solution isn't it that's because i only feel safe if I'm dominating you or I'm getting the fuck out of there. Yeah. But I need to trust that I can just look at you. I'm safe. It's so hard for me to get to. I have to constantly tell myself that I'm safe, but I love the panther in the room. That's good, right?

That's a good one. Yeah. So the Will Prozac works for a long time. Yeah. You have a good ride and your career works as well. That's probably another good Prozac. For a while. Yeah.

And then coming up on 40, it just completely stops working all over again. Yeah. It was wearing off for many years and me not having a solution and poor Will just pulling at him to be this thing. having a solution and poor Will just pulling at him to be this thing. Once I hit that wall at 40 and I was like, I want out. You know, I'm driving, looking for cliffs. I can't commit suicide in a way that my kids will know that it's suicide. So I'm on my hallway looking for cliffs.

And then I remember Big Sur. And I was like, cool, got it. I'm not making it out of that. And so I had my plan. And then by the grace of God, my son Jaden comes into the kitchen one morning and says, you got to come in the living room and hear Moises and Mateo tell the story about their dad. And their father had gone to Peru. There's another bolt of lightning coming your way. Yes, exactly.

What are the odds of this conversation happening in your kitchen? Kitchen. They brought it to me. Ayahuasca. And I'm listening and I'm like, what? I'm like, where's your father? How soon can he come here? Where's the attack?

Yeah. Okay. And so he comes and he tells me his whole experience and I'm looking at him and he's so different. He's got this bright light and he's so different. He's got this bright light. He's just shiny. It was undeniable to you.

Yeah. I said, I need that. And the universe within a month opened that door for me. And I was in Ojai. Wow. But hardcore version. I didn't even know this version existed. This is scheduled for a three day experience. Yes.

Turns into four. Turns into four because the third night, I come across that cycle of deep self-hatred. And I think I'm possessed. I don't even recognize. No, no, no. These are your thoughts.

This is you. This is how you think about recognize. No, no, no. These are your thoughts. This is you. This is how you think about yourself. There is no one here, baby girl. This is you. I tell her, I'm like, I can't go home to my kids with this. Whatever's on me, I need another night. She's like, no problem. And I stay there with her.

I stay up all day because I can't sleep. I'm terrified. I don't want to even close my eyes. For sure. Go back in that night, rough beginning, and finally surrender. Just look at the panther in the room. No reaction. Just be still. Stop running.

Yes. Yeah. Stop chasing and running. And just be with it. And then all of it just passes. All of it is just a movie. It's okay. Let it go.

It's not personal. Yeah. Just witness it. It's not personal. Yeah. Just witness it. You can handle it. Yeah. We just had this very profound moment with, I don't know if you've ever heard of Gabor Mate. Oh, yeah. He's so special.

Yeah. Yeah. Somebody else was just talking about him. There was the most beautiful moment between he and Monica on the show. Yeah, about accepting worthiness and just sitting and feeling. Yes. It's incredibly hard. And you don't even know you're doing he asked me so many times he was like how do you feel and i was like well i think blah blah

but he's like no no that's what you think right how do you feel and it took me six times i got it wrong six times before i could be like sad and she's an all-in student so it was brutal yeah i hate it yeah she got wrong that's the most it wrongs she's ever gotten in a row. Yes. But it's amazing how we can't identify feelings. It takes a minute, right? Yeah. And what he pointed out is when she finally goes sad. Yeah. And he goes, you know, if we were filming this right now and I played it back to you, what would we see?

She goes, I smiled. Yeah, he said, what's funny about that? Yeah. You think you'll be rejected if you're sad. You're not allowed to be sad. That's true. Yeah. Oh, we were all crying.

Yeah. It's intense. We all went down. But it's that moment. It's just like sitting with it. It's the hardest part. It's crazy, too, how you can know. Like, you could have taught that lesson.

Oh, yeah, 100%. You can know it. Like you could have taught that. Oh yeah, 100%. You can know it intellectually. You could have told someone else that's not a feeling, that's not, but we're completely unaware that you yourself are. That's right. It's tricky business. It's really tricky. This life. All of it. It's tricky business. You know what I mean? But that's the whole part of just becoming more conscious as we go along and just that idea of self-inventory and that's one of the things that i like about plant medicine even though i wouldn't recommend it for just anybody it's not for everybody it's not for a nightclub no it's specifically not ayahuasca but the level of self-inventory that i get to do when i am in ceremony is beyond.

It's hours of that moment between. Absolutely. It's very intriguing. I was also thinking the irony, what you're struggling with at this point, this is a huge relief, obviously. This is the light at the end of the tunnel. You're not standing in the sunshine yet after your 40th birthday.

No, no, no. But I'm assuming hope has entered your life. I've never had a suicidal thought after those four nights right and you've done multiple multiple multiple multiple follow ups yeah multiple follow-ups and i didn't realize what also became very helpful was fucking trauma therapy yeah do you do emdr i haven done EMDR yet, but that's my next. Yeah. Kristen just had crazy results with it.

Did she? In like six sessions. Yeah. I'm looking for a really great practitioner. Yeah. I'll get the gal that Kristen uses and does it over Zoom and it works. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah.

I have a trauma therapist. I've done some MDMA therapy sessions, which have been really good, but that's the next move for me. So now here's the other parallels. So I've got like the childhood parallels, but then I have the kind of professional parallels you and I have in a very public relationship. Yeah. Aspirational relationship for some people. Yes, on a pedestal. It's just like, ugh. Yeah. yeah yeah and then dipping our toe into this weird water almost the timing's identical like you start doing red table virtually the same time we start doing this oh wow okay both meteoric fucking crazy rides right and you're playing this very

tricky game i feel it intensely which is i want to let you in on a lot of stuff i also need some piece of myself that's not for you i don't know where that line is always i would compare the will episode with my day seven episode i after some time on your head to come out and say i don't have 16 years of sobriety i relapsed i. I remember that, which was very brave, Dax. Well, thank you. And I think I have the same compulsion you did, which is, A, I'm so grateful for the love that's been shown to me this whole ride. We have an agreement and I can't violate it. You all gave me this thing and here's the agreement and I can't really leave myself out of it. I can't have people come in here and make

them do day seven. There you go. And so you kind of get yourself into this situation. I think mine worked out a bit better for me than yours, which I'm very sad because if anything, I was more culpable in my situation, but I feel grateful. I don't really know any of that. Yeah. I don't either, to be honest. I don't know any of that. We think everyone does everything. Full disclosure, I watched the Chris stand-up thing. Right. And I was like, I've always appreciated his perspective. I have always thought he was so smart and two steps ahead.

And I was like, I'm so excited to hear how he processed that whole thing. And I was pretty bummed with the outcome. And in that thing, I'm now learning about stuff that I didn't know. to hear how he processed that whole thing. And I was pretty bummed with the outcome. And in that thing, I'm now learning about stuff that I didn't know. In my ignorance, my only real knowledge of it is what I saw in a stand-up special. So now when I'm seeing the real situation you're in, I'm so much more empathetic to it. And what an impossible situation. So for other people probably wouldn't know, it's like, at this point, you and Will have

been like, hey, we got this great thing. We got this family. We got these businesses. There's another backstory thing about you going, we're not doing a prenup because I'm never going to divorce you. Right. There's a lot driving this. Yeah. By the way, I so understand this.

I also understand that position you're in. I know what it's like to have a shared identity in the world. It's very curious. I haven't been at that point so far, but I have had the thoughts of, well, how would you get out of this if you ever had to? Right. I know who America's siding with. Yeah. Kristen Bell.

Exactly. No matter what would happen, I know who's getting left by the wayside in this. Right. It's just a very interesting thing to have also involved in a relationship. And it's a hard line to walk. So that was such a complicated moment. Oh my God. You know, and Will wasn't supposed to be there in the first place.

That's number one. I didn't ask him to come. I didn't want him to come, but he wanted to be there. For this episode? For this episode. Where she's going to talk about she had had an entanglement with somebody. I didn't want him to come, but he wanted to be there. For this episode? For this episode. Okay, got it. Where she's going to talk about she had had an entanglement with somebody. I had an entanglement.

They've already decided years before, like, hey, let's just keep this family and this unit together, but let's just have our separate lives. Yeah, yeah. 2016, we separated. Yeah. Tough time for me. Defaulting in some of those, I'm going to grab onto things so I don't have to deal with this. Yeah, I need a little relief right now. I need a little relief.

This is too much. And so that's my entanglement. And when this person decided to speak out about it, now, mind you, Will and I are still separated. We're not together. We're a family. We're friends, but we're not together. Will's like, I don't want you to go through this by yourself. I'm like, wow.

Okay, here's the menschiness. This is sweet, you know? And I'm like, wow. Okay, here's the menschiness. This is sweet, you know? And I'm like, okay. We get to the table and I see Will. He's not ready. No one's really ready, right? He's late. We're about to be going to Jaden's birthday.

Really quick, did you just feel, I can imagine my spidey senses going like, if we're going to do something like this this is not the start but that thing in me that's just like go right the worst action is we're also on a time crunch people are writing stuff and talking about it and you kind of feel like well yeah and for me kind of like you dax i'm like i can't bring people to this and I was ready so it was two things happening I was ready to dismantle whatever fantasy and just keep it people have right just keep it real that's what this is about and I didn't have shame about my experience I was like

I'm not gonna be emotionally blackmailed by somebody yeah time to face the, I'm not going to be emotionally blackmailed by somebody. Time to face the music. I'm ready to be past this. And I'm not going to hang my head low because I didn't do anything wrong. Yeah, exactly. You didn't violate anyone's trust. I didn't violate anybody's trust. You didn't betray anyone. No.

Right. But when I saw Will, then another thing kicked in. My codependency kicked in. And I hate to feel bad for him in this situation. Right. But again, it's what I brought up at the beginning, overarching these forces of masculinity. Right. There's this crazy thing that has to occur to him the moment it's happening.

And it's like primal and it's hardwired and it's, ooh, I'm being cuckold. I'm losing my masculinity right now. Because they're not going to understand that I didn't really. I mean, I don't know. I hate to make excuses for him, but I can see the powers at play. It's unfortunate for everybody. Yeah. For everybody involved. Yes.

Everyone's losing in that moment. Everybody's losing, right? Yes. There's no great outcome. And I said, you know what? I'll take it. I know. You just decide to be, okay, I'll be the martyr.

I'll just do it. He doesn't play it necessarily like they had been separated. He wasn't ready to fully go there. He wasn't ready to fully say that we weren't together. Right, to own the situation. To own the situation. And I understood that. And I felt like, this is my shit.

I'll take the hit. I'm not going to be in any kind of like disagreement with will i'm not i'm not gonna be in a beef with will i will take that hit any day right or wrong that's just who i am he wasn't ready i was i wasn't going backpedal on my shit this is my shit i'll fucking take the hit it's okay yeah right after was it like not worth it after the fact though well i tell you what i needed that moment for a lot of different reasons like you need to do a tone i needed that moment to see the dynamic at that table uh like it was very revealing It was very revealing to me about me. The codependency.

I was like, you know what, Jada? I understand you wanting to take care of other people. But I realized in that moment, I said, this is your issue. You make these choices that I'm going to love you and I'm going to leave myself on the side of the road. Or I'm going to love myself and leave you on the side of the road. Those'm gonna love myself and leave you on the side of the road right those are the options I had yeah at that moment I wasn't gonna leave Will at the side of the road but I'd left myself at the side of the road big fucking time yeah right that's when my journey really took off isn't that wild and I would not have been able to see it and I still

wouldn't have been able to see it if I didn't have people around me that loved me that were so upset that I had made that decision. People around me were fucking beside themselves. Yes. And that's when I realized, you've got an issue here. My choices were just so imbalanced. You don't have to leave anybody on the side of the road. Right. You don't have to leave anybody on the side of the road. Nobody has to take the fall. And so part of me writing this book is part of that curriculum of you don't need to leave anybody on the side of the road. You can be honest, you can be loving, and love others at the same time and finding that balance. And in that time, I just didn't know how to do that. I just fell into my default of I will take care of you by any means necessary. Let's add your value proposition in your mind at that point is your loyalty. Yes.

And your ride or dieine-ness yes and you're actually not lovable for any other reason other than that all i got so if you take away ride or die i'm fucking useless you're an aging beauty queen exactly you know what i mean it's like and i have prided myself on being the most hardcore ride or die. Yes. I have the same value proposition, right? But here's what I've talked about this before is I started noticing I required that of the people in my life because guess what? My life was pretty messy and I needed ride or die people. As my actions got better and I had more self-esteem, actually, that's not the number one quality

I want in a friend. Exactly. I want maybe intelligence or I want good time. Kindness, yeah. But it used to be, yeah, this dude with no teeth and a limp and a hook. Yeah, that's my boy. He will kill for me. It's like, okay, that's the most important thing.

I know. And it's just, it's a reflection for me of how much I think I couldn't be loved unless I had that loyalty. There you go. Because that's what I recognized as love. Because they won't leave you. I mean, it all goes back to the original thing. Loyalty means you won't be left. That you won't be left.

And so loyalty is great. It is. It is. But learning how to be loyal in a healthy way. And that's what I'm trying to learn to do. And by the way, the story burbles up throughout the entire book. To be loyal at a cost to yourself isn't really loyalty. Yeah.

The person that would ask that of you, you had the friend who wanted you to lie about speaking an alibi to him. And Kenan was like, that's not a friend. Yeah. A friend doesn't ask you to get yourself in legal trouble when you don't have any. But we can't see that. Right. I couldn't see that at the time.

If it wasn't for Kenan to be so hardcore, like, you will go to jail. And it was the same thing after that entanglement table. How fucking could you? It's a lie. That is not true. People are going to hate you. And I'm like, I don't give a fuck about people. And that's part of the problem.

I really don't care much about public opinion. But what I do care about is the people around me that love me and how they're affected by my actions yeah they want it better for you they want it better that's heartbreaking and that's when i realized i don't want to hurt people like this who love me yeah it's a wild event you went through i know i. I know. It's a wild event that I'm still going through. Yeah. A lot of them. Yeah.

I've gone through a lot of wild events. But, you know, I look to God and I go, you must really love me because you are getting me all the way together as far as learning how to have an open heart in hell. Ram Dass said it best. Just learning how to have an open heart in hell. Ram Dass said it best. Just learning how to have an open heart in hell and all of this chaos that I've been in and all of this misunderstanding, man, has it been a purifier in so many ways. I've had so many beautiful, valuable lessons that I wouldn't have been able to have without all of this. Now, I'm hoping that after I write this book and I do this tour, when I tell you I'm falling back, I will probably go somewhere far and disappear for a very long time.

I need some peace. You earned it. Yeah, I need some peace, but I'm grateful. Similarly, I'm writing a memoir, and my hope is that I would never want to dishonor all the memories by letting them go. But I'm hopeful that if I write them down and I no longer have the fear that I'll lose them, that I can let them go. Like I want to put it in a book and I want to go, here it is. Now you're free to not carry that. It's not gone. It exists. But I'd like to free up some memory here to run some new programs.

That's me. I've been carrying a lot. Well, by the way, that's where you were in the tricky sitch that I find myself in is you were damn near as honest as a human can be in public. But even if there's a little tiny secret, it'll find its way to come wreak havoc. You were like 98% of the way there. There's just this one little piece. By the way, we're cool, but we've been separated

for six years. We're hanging on to this little tiny piece, and then holy smokes, look what that grew into. It's wild. Life is a comedy. It is a comedy. You just have to learn how to laugh at it all, because at the end of the day, it really is funny.

It really does get funny. Will and I can look at some stuff now and fucking crack up. Yeah. Look, I look at you guys and I'm like, they're fucking gangsters. It's that simple. Fuck all y'all. This is who we are. This is who we are.

Everyone should be aspiring to have that. So much of me doesn't want to bring it up because not to pat myself on the back, but when it all happened, when the slap happened, I was triggered in a lot, a lot of ways. I actually had to do a couple of therapy sessions about that. So here's my baggage. I watched my mom get beat in front of me. What always happened before getting beat was you insult her. That's never happening on my watch. And I yeah and i don't know his story but i just know i was there i was like i can't say that i'm not doing the same you know yeah in fact my therapy session was like i'm not gonna try to get you to not be that guy but can you do it in the parking lot yeah yeah yeah yeah and i'm like okay i think i can aspire to doing it in the

parking lot again i don't know Will's story. I'm projecting. There was such racism immediately. If Leonardo DiCaprio smacks fucking Tobey Maguire, we're not calling assault. We're calling it embarrassing. I didn't like that. But why I want to bring it up is what I hoped we would get to in Chris's synthesizing of that whole experience. I really didn't get, and I was really bummed and I love him I have so much respect for him that's not what I expected from him yours was when I read

your account of it and I thought you beautifully never made an attempt to tell Will's story or Chris's you're just like here's my experience through it all and then what fucked me up was just i'm walking out here with him like no matter what yep no matter what and that's where loyalty is yeah fucking beautiful and you should hope that on your worst day yeah when you do your most regrettable thing that someone grabs your hand and walks home with you it's so fucking beautiful yeah i was like i didn't come in there as his wife but i left yeah that's what killed me yeah yeah oh even you saying like when he said keep my wife's name on your mouth you're like i haven't even heard him call me his wife in so long yeah that's a hard way to learn i know i like god damn that's a heavy price of entry. I know. I was like, I was like, God damn.

That's a heavy price of entry, but what an experience you guys shared. Yeah. Fuck all the other stuff. Yeah. You want to talk about having been tested? Yeah. That loyalty? That was it.

I just have to be honest. That was the moment where I was like, this is my guy. Yeah. I can't leave his side. He's so lucky. He's so lucky. And you know what? What's so clear throughout the whole book,

and him going on Red Table, he too. Yeah, exactly. There won't be a day. There won't be a day. You will die on this planet. There will not have been a day he wasn't there. That's right. And that's what we know.

So all the judgment, all the fucking bullshit, you should be so lucky to have that. But that's why I can deal with all the judgment and the bullshit because you have a real thing i got a real deal yeah right of that what you needed your whole life you got it and it's not pretty no it's not perfect you're not gonna love this you're not gonna like it you're not gonna love it it's not gonna look like you know you're a little yeah you know but your little fluffy head. It's not, you know. But guess what? Here we are. I'd do anything for it.

It's so powerful. Truly. It's so powerful. God. I said to Kristen, I don't know if you're going to read this book, but read that chapter. Right. I fucking loved it. I'm just so glad I had this opportunity to talk to you about it because, you know.

Oh, it's in my heart. Yeah, it's in your heart. You know? And I don't know. Like I said, I had a lot of like male stuff. I excuse Chris, too. because you know it's in my heart yeah it's in your heart you know yeah and i don't know like i said i had a lot of like male stuff i excuse chris too you're also very gracious about chris i excuse chris chris is a dude too that got emasculated will got emasculated and then he emasculated then there's a cycle of fucking emasculation and they're both victims and i hate the whole thing

and it breaks my heart no one like won a prize that day right everybody's always trying to find villains and stories and there is none the villains were the people that fucking got their popcorn out and couldn't wait to start yapping about it my story those people have their own damage you know we're all trying to figure it out. I think one of my saving graces, and it was such a huge moment for me, when Chris came to the end of that stage and he looked me in my eyes and he said, I meant you no harm. I held on to his look in his eyes.

That was the true Chris. Not the Chris on Netflix. I'm glad he gave you that. Yeah, he gave me that. You deserved it. But I'm glad you had the moment. And he was sincere. I held that with me throughout everything.

And I understood. I had a lot of compassion for his position. And I understood. I got it. Hurt people hurt people. That's just what it is. Weirdly, it's not personal. It's not personal it's not personal

that's his stuff that's my stuff it's your stuff and our stuff you know and all our stuff crashed into each other you know but it's not personal i've spent time with chris it's a good dude oh god yeah with his own story yeah with his own stuff and i have compassion for that too what a good example of how to go through life you how to go through life and handing out all this it's impossible understanding it's not us them him me it's all of us it's all of us we're all just trying to figure this shit out yeah it's really special you did a fucking killer job good job telling your story. I hope everyone reads it. Thank you. Yeah, worthy. Worthy, worthy, worthy.

Lovable. Lovable. We're all lovable and worthy. Kit Jada's book, it's going to blow your mind. I've left out 99% of your story. Which is good. Let's read it. When I was cramming for the exam, I'm like, how are we fitting this into a day?

Forget two hours. Well, I adore you. Thanks into a day? Forget two hours. Right. Well, I adore you. Thanks so much for trusting us. Absolutely. I've been wanting to get us, you know, in front of each other. Yeah, we're in the same. Yeah.

And I was like, oh, okay, I'm going to go to the armchair. Well, I'm at your disposal whenever. Thank you. I appreciate it. All right. Adore you. Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong. This is rare. This is the rarest of the rares.

It is. We just recorded Jada. We did. This might comfort people because I do think often it's been a couple weeks since we, so we get to talking about clothes and Seinfeld episodes and stuff. And then they're a little bit like, I can't believe they're not talking about that. That was a big episode. But we are a little removed from it.

So this might actually be nice because we're very fresh off of Jada. That's true. First things up. Yeah. Was that your first time being taller in a picture? Ooh. I think you've been the same height a couple times, but I don't think you've. I don't think I've been the same height a couple times, but I don't think you've. I don't think I've been taller.

And now you know for a fact, and you can never say it again. Well, no, all I know now is that she's 4'10". No. No. She's 4'11", and I was taller than her. You don't really think I think that, though, do you? I don't know what you think sometimes. I think it's fun to say you're 4'11".

Okay, so you know I'm 5'1". Of course. I mean, I know you're 5'. I don't know why you go sometimes. I think it's fun to say you're 4'11". Okay, so you know I'm 5'1". Of course. I mean, I know you're 5'. I don't know if I'm going to go 5 1⁄2". I believe that you're 5 1⁄2". Yeah, and my wingspan is exactly my height. It's perfectly, you've measured it. I'm perfect, yeah.

Oh, my God. Yes, so I was taller. How'd it feel? I actually didn't like it. I would imagine you wouldn't. Yeah, I felt like I was going to like. Hurt her. Yeah. Well, welcome to my world. Yeah. Everyone is just vulnerable. I might, I got to watch where I step. I flatten someone. And if you step on their toe, it's like really bad. We're joking about it, but I bet it is sincere. Cause my issue, like, I don't like

when guys are taller than me here on the show. Not because of my vanity. Just because I'm like, this doesn't feel right. So abnormal that I'm like, ooh, something feels a little off. Like I can't get my arm around their shoulder. They put it around mine. I'm so used to I go around the shoulder because I'm so tall. Yeah, it kind of felt like with the kids or something. You're posing with some kids. But no, no, no.

I don't want to say that. Let's not say Jade has a kid. She's the opposite of a kid. She's an incredibly powerful woman uh-huh that's why it's confusing i feel like people must i i hope they do think that about me when they hug me like oh this is confusing like she's so small and fragile and her boobs are so big but and so powerful but she's also so powerful right although the boobs work in concert with that if we're talking about your boobs now um so sure sure i would love to see i guess of course seeing photos of that's all i could think i want to see them next to each other will and her we've seen so many times, but it never, only when you're with her, you recognize the level of tiny she is.

And I would also argue that the vast majority of photos we've ever seen of them together, she's in heels because they're at an event. So we're not even getting the full brunt of it. What we could easily do is look at the picture of her and I next to each other because I think he and I are the same height. Right. But I just. But I'm white. Is that that what you're thinking I don't like the comparison I wonder what it's like for him it must be so fun for does he like it like sure to just be hugging this tiny but she's like probably feisty with there's a part of her book where she talks about getting in crazy shape for a movie and in in fact, she, very impressive numbers.

I want to say she bench pressed 175. Oh my God. And she was working with the trainer that Will had worked with to get into shape for Ali. And she said she was really feeling herself. And she came at Will to be playful. And then he just threw her around. And she was like, oh yeah, I guess that's big boy muscles. Oh, dang.

So it didn't even. I forget how she said it, but she made fun of herself for thinking she could take him on with her new muscles. That's really funny. They look closer in height in photos than you would expect. Because she's in heels, though, do you think? I think that because it's mostly red carpets. Yeah. But even still, her with like a three inch heel is five two

yeah i mean some it's like up to his shoulder maybe oh and but others it's like up to his cheek oh well that's she's on she's standing down or something or she's standing on a block he's in a hole here's a question for you money would it have crossed your mind? Like, I guess, let's say Matt Damon's wife has the- Lucy was the exact same size as you. She is tiny. I saw her in real life. So maybe you even had this thought. Did you think when you hugged him, like, oh, this will remind him of her?

Oh, no. I didn't think that. I thought another bad thought. Which is? Which is like, oh, he likes- T that. I thought another bad thought. Which is? Which is like, oh, he likes small girls. And so that's a check in my bucket. Like for me, it's like, oh, it could have maybe happened. Also because she is not a whitey.

The wife. Yes. The wifey is not a whitey. Yes. And so that's another check in my bucket. Yes. Small and not white. So, cause when I hugged Jada, I thought this is going to feel very familiar to her. Of course. Right. Exact same frame and everything. Yeah. But that's not really true though, because I've hugged other people of the same heights and i've hugged multiple people

of same heights as me as you and as in general okay like ryan's size matt's size is ryan and matt the same i think they're the same height okay so a great yeah i probably just pissed both of them off somehow but i that from my vantage, they seem to be the same height. Rob's like about to look it up. To me, it's like Charlie and I are standing next to each other. We're the same height. And then those two are standing next to each other. You're taller than Charlie.

No, no, he's taller than me. What? Just fractionally. I have to cut that. But that is shocking. You don't think that? No. Really?

I imagine it to go Ryan and Matt. Maybe Matt, like hair taller. That's what I think too. Yeah. Pun intended. Oh, yeah. Wow, yeah. Pun intended.

And then Charlie and then you. Oh, and then Eric in that same Ryan-y level. Yes, yes. Let me ask Molly how tall Eric is. Okay. I know how tall Ryan is. He's 5'11". Would he say that?

Is this what you do, though? No, he... We told this story when we interviewed him, I think. One of my favorite moments I ever witnessed of Ryan Hansen, Solves Crimes on TV, at High Ryan Hansen, was at their first house. We all decided to measure ourselves against the wall, like make a line on the wall. And he was 5'11", and he was like, no, that's not right. I'm six feet. Right, we did talk about that.

That's not funny enough on its own. What was really funny was I caught him like a half hour later i saw him walking through the kitchen and he's like he under his breath he's like six feet he was still wrestling with it 30 minutes later oh my god did it crack me up if someone measured me and said for 11 i would and also because that's wrong so that's why i think he might be right. No, no, no, no. He's definitely 5'11". Okay. I don't want to get in the middle of this. Actually, I'm not even.

He might have been just sub 5'11". No, don't do that. That's not nice. No, I'm not being mean. I'm being. What I'm being is I think it was right on the edge. Okay. Well, whatever.

Eric is 5'11". I just got back from her from Molly. Okay. So then he and Ryan are the same height. He's in that Ryan range. Ryan range. Ryan range. Hugging both of them is very different, extremely. But they have different body types.

Well, you think you have the exact same body as Will Smith? It's hard to tell. I think I'm in better shape right now. Look, he's been in better shape than me in the past, but I do think right now I'm in better shape than him. We don't need, the point is, bodies are different. I think we have very similar shoulders. Okay. I just want to be clear.

My stance is, you can be the same height and hug differently. I absolutely think you can hug differently. You can also even have similar body types and hug differently. I agree with you. Do you think Kristen and I hug similarly or differently? Hmm. I said, don't you? I'd say similarly.

It's the exact same zone, you know? Like the head's in the same place on my chest. You can't go over my shoulders. You got to go around my waist. You have to hug me around my waist. You have no option. But even in, okay, even if you're doing the same positions, it feels- Yes, it feels different. The hugs feel different from different.

Hugs feel different. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm putting a, this is a hill I'll die on. And I don't want to die on this hill. So yes, Higgs, Higgs, Higgies feel diffy. I mean, when Kristen hugs me, she's a very- Does it feel like you're hugging yourself? No, but it feels, I think she hugs specifically. She's a very good hugger. Yeah, very good hugger.

Well, I wouldn't know that. What do you mean? Because I'm her- You've only dated good huggers? I'm her romantic partner. Right. I'm her You've only dated good huggers? I'm her romantic partner Right So I think what makes a good hugger from a stranger is like It feels quite intimate

Well I'm not a stranger I know that But I guess what I'm saying is of course her hugs feel good to me I'm her romantic partner Right So I don't know her as a friend or an associate If she hugged me as a friend or associate I would probably be like

Wow that's a really good hug for a friend or an associate. But from your partner, you expect it to feel how it feels. Okay. But. But. Don't you think you hug people in your life in a similar way you hug her? Yes. Absolutely.

Right. So it's not like just because it's a romantic partner. That's not. We're working backwards. What I'm saying is I cannot compare how Kristen hugs to how friends hug. Right, no. Because she hugs as any of my girlfriends have hugged, which is like very intimate. Well, sure, of course.

But I guess I just mean, I think she does what you do. I think she hugs people. Like she loves them. Yes. Yes. Yes. Maybe not exactly the way she hugs you, but with that kind of loving energy. I just thought of something we can finally agree on. Let's try.

Best hug on planet Earth on the count of three. Hold on. I'm not ready. Think about what hug absolutely explodes your heart. One, two, three. Delta. My dad. Oh.

Don't we agree Delta's got the best hug in the biz? She does. I said my dad. Because I got stressed. Okay. But you're just like, you're not even 24 hours out from a hug. She came in here. She's a good hugger.

And she wraps herself around you. She like octopuses you. Yeah, she's a really good hugger. And she's soft everywhere. She's very soft. She's been soft since she was a baby. She hasn't lost that yet. Yeah.

She's not coarse. Well, when she's been hugging you since she was a baby, it also feels extra special. Like a baby. She is a baby. Like a baby. Yeah. Remember, I'm so lonely. I'm so lonely.

What song do I sing? You sing Two Colors. Two Colors. You're two colors. You're two colors. That's why I love you. I'm so lonely. It's really sad. It is.

He can't even finish the song. Yeah. He's so lonely. No, I'm sad when I hear that now. I don't like it anymore. You didn't like it the first time, just to remind you. Oh, okay,ed. No, I'm sad when I hear that now. I don't like it anymore. You didn't like it the first time, just to remind you. Oh, okay, good. Yeah, yeah.

I can't think of a character you like. Well, Robot. I love the Robot. I know. I send him lots of love. Yes, you do love the Robot. And I think you're a true... Oh, my God, that's going to be hard.

Because he only sings in one rhythm, but it's another song. Let's see. You might have to. Okay. And I see your two colors. I can't remember the words in this tone. I thought you were about to do it. That was pretty good.

And I see your two colors. That's why I love you. Oh, yeah. And I see your two colors. And that's why I love you. Oh, yeah. And I see your two colors, and that's why I love you. Okay, that was pretty good. It was almost two. I'm so lonely. No.

They'd be friends. Of course. Because they're both lonely. Did I hear you were lonely? I'm programmed to give you companionship. What sounds really nice. I hope you enjoy it. Because he will get a bill in the mail.

Oh, no. It's not me. It's my owner. Oh, God. I just think they'd get along because he's lonely, too, because he wants to be a real boy. Yeah, yes. He has a deep loneliness. And he could be, yeah, it's like another level, spiritual level.

This didn't turn out to be the follow-up to Jada we were hoping. I don't have any hopes or aspirations for these. But I was going to say you. Me what? But I knew that was wrong because you wouldn't say you. Right, that'd be crazy. Yeah, but you're a very good hugger. You're a very good hugger. Thanks. Rob, if you can get. Yeah, but you're a very good hugger. You're a very good hugger.

Thanks. Rob, if you can get him to do it, he's a good hugger. No, Rob doesn't do it. He's scared. Rob, you should practice. You and David. You and David should go away to a hug retreat. Yeah, you guys do need to work on that.

Do you guys ever hug? We have. Try not to. Yeah, try not to. Well, I think my thing is I never know when to fully commit to the hug or not. Right. So like I'm doing a half hug most of the time. You only know with Natalie or even Ben?

Yeah, with Natalie. And your children. I have a couple like guy friends that will hug. And it feels right. Yeah. Yeah. Natural. But there's like also the like intentional, let's touch our groins together.

Oh, wow. You go all the way. Oh, wow. You have zero or 10. Stop. That's a cop-out. That's a cop-out for intimacy. Okay.

Because you're making it a joke. Well, sometimes that's the only way guys can get there. They still need that affection. Oh, at the retreat with David Fair. Yes, I want you guys to work on it. No jokes, regular intimate hugs. No joking. No joking allowed.

Joking aside, let's hug. You can give me a hug. I put extra oil in my joints. Now it seems you don't like the robot either. Okay, it's not his fault. Okay. You know I didn't grow up with many hugs You're new to them

Yeah you're new to them I am Did you hug your friends growing up? No I hated hugs You hated them? I mean I would do it But it was also like kind of a joke I think for Callie

It must be confusing Because we don't really hug You don't? I mean we will If someone's really injured or something? Like if there's like a necessary. Yeah, some comforts required. Yeah.

But we are not like physically affectionate friends, even though she's my best friend in the whole world. Who do you attribute that to? My family. You think it's your doing? Like do you think she hugs her other friends much more? No, I think we're maybe similar, but that's a good question. I hugged, this is for real. What timing?

I hugged two dads today at school drop-off. Okay. Random? No, no, I know them. Oh, then that's normal. Craig, who I like a lot. And then this other dad who I don't really know very well, but he's very friendly and he's super handsome. Yeah,

I was talking with Scott, my bro, Scott Schaefer, who I worked with on Parenthood. He was the AD. Chatting with him and then I just kept

hugging guys as they walked by. Oh my God. Yeah. I wonder if Scott thinks this is weird or cool. No,

if you know them, I think it's normal. Yeah. I just would way prefer a hug than a handshake. I know you're a fan. I know you well enough to like shake your hand. I just prefer way prefer a hug than a handshake. I know you're fake. I know you well enough to shake your hand. I just prefer to hug you.

But you grew up in a huggy environment. My dad was huggy. And your mom. My mom was a snuggle bug. Exactly. But I think more telling is that my dad was. I think everyone's mom is pretty huggy. Mine wasn't either.

Oh, boy. Okay. Neither were they. It sounds like Nermy and your mom need to go as well to this retreat. No, no, no. My mom, it's a cultural thing, and she didn't have that. Receive a ton of hugs. Yeah. So it's not her fault, and I do want to be-

Crystal clear. Yeah. And it's okay if not all moms are that way. She's very nurturing in other ways. Yeah. I got nothing to say about what anyone should or shouldn't do. Well, I just mean they don't need to go to the camp that Rob's going to. Oh, okay, okay.

It's a camp now. I like that. But I think more telling for me is that my dad was very affectionate. I think that was the abnormal element in the equation. Yeah. Kiss me on the lips, as we talked about. Right. Yeah.

He hugged a lot of his male friends. Yeah. Which was not crazy popular in the 80s in Detroit. Good example he set. Yeah. Well, I guess this is a ding, ding, ding because Jada has a mom. She has a mom. Yeah.

She's very close with her mom. Yeah. That's right. That's a ding, ding, ding. You know one thing I wish we had talked about? What? Maybe I can answer it because I read the whole book. Okay.

We'll try. i've never tried my jada voice but let's see how it goes okay let's just do your regular voice okay um for this exercise yeah uh did her mom got clean i assume yeah yeah and we got clean she relapsed she got clean she relapsed she got clean she relapsed and then yeah i think been, it seems from the book, she's been sober for quite a while. That's great. And came out here and lives right by them. Right. That's what it sounds like.

She's in their life a lot. There was so much stuff I would have liked to have talked about, but it went like, I just barely got the essential things I wanted to talk in under two hours. But one of them was they travel with like 40 people or they have in the past they have everyone all their childhood friends are along for the ride and the family members and it's incredible it's really that's great yeah it's amazing how like how much they've included everyone the mom has a house right next to their house you know everyone's taken care of yeah yeah it's nice i'll take care of people i don't know if you need to live next to me, you know? Well, they might get a lot of help from them. Could, yeah.

Might be. That wasn't in the book. I can't speak on that. Okay, because you know- I am an expert on other topics in the book, but not that one. Because my grandparents lived in the same neighborhood, and that was like for sure- Essential. On purpose and for help.

Yeah. And it was a lot of help. Ask a random question. Let's see if it was in the book. No, are you going to- Oh, I thought you were going to want to and for help. Yeah. And it was a lot of help. Ask a random question and see if it was in the book. No, are you going to? Oh, I thought you were going to want to do the voice. Okay. One thing I wish you had asked or we had asked is what is her favorite ice cream flavor? That was not in the book.

Oh, dang. Yeah. I'm trying to think if there was. Does she like desserts? Did she express any food preferences? Does she have a sweet tooth at all? No, but there is

a little part where she talks about her alopecia and it being autoimmune. Okay, for real, we didn't talk about that. I know, but we had so... Like, it was wall to wall.

I really want people to read the book. It's fantastic. And that is... I can tell you this part about the alopecia. Well, I'll tell you a couple things

about the alopecia. One is, she did at some point part about the LPC. Well, I'll tell you a couple of things about the LPC. One is she did at some point, she had bouts of it and she would get steroids and whatnot. And then she did say that she went on this kind of mission to cleanse everything. So like no drinking, blah, blah, blah. And then clean up her diet a lot. And because it's an autoimmune thing, that had some impact on it. And if you read the second to last chapter, the slap, the holy joke and the whatever she said, I personally wasn't destroyed over an alopecia joke,

but I was pretty bummed to think for all the women who are really, really suffering from it. And the children who have committed suicide over alopecia to see that on the world stage, that would be fine to make fun of somebody. She's like, it really wasn't for me personally that offensive, but I was bummed for all the people who really suffer from it in a way I don't. Yeah. That they would have to think that this is so acceptable that you can say it on the Academy Awards. So that was an element that was interesting.

Yeah, that is. Yeah. How old was she when it started yeah i'm gonna this is a guess but i'm trying to think of the timeline of the book because she's 52 now it seems that that like 2016 maybe 17 years ago i think was the first time 2016 or 6 16 for the alopecia. The first bout of it. You said 17 years ago? No.

Oh, I thought you said 2016, 17 years ago. Oh, no. 2016 slash 17. Oh, got it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But I think 2016. Okay.

Seven years ago. Got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so kind of more recent. Uh-huh. ago got it yeah yeah okay so kind of more recent uh-huh she was having her hair done for an event and this the stylist who she knew i want to say said what's going on here you have a little dent because sometimes she'd get a dent in the side of her like above her cheekbone and then that's where she would get a bald patch they were kind of related somehow and then it would rebound rebound and then

yeah it got emotional so i i failed to make this point but she makes it in the book and it's really really important i regret not saying it in front of her and it is her point not mine okay but of that whole thing that happened the end result result being somehow it was her fault. Oh, right. I can't believe we didn't talk about that. Yes, that of course, somehow it's the woman's fault. The whole thing in summation from Chris's perspective or the world's is like she cheated on Will and that's what caused everything. Not the two guys who both insulted her and then slapped.

Somehow a woman is the one who's got a shoulder and i think that's such a good point it is and i and so well worn it's so fucked up i mean and it is it's it's everywhere yeah but even we to some extent i mean we talk about i think we talk about more of as a society the emasculation yeah yeah But emasculation is tied in to that patriarchal, like, women are always tied into emasculation. They're, like, the reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's fucked up. I didn't, and I hope I was clear in this episode.

My point is both things are bondage. Oh, no, for sure. That's always my point. Not to minimize, like, no, that's a beatdown that somehow she, the woman, was responsible for all that chaos. No. Which is so societal and fucked up and patriarchal. Yeah, it's terrible. And that those two were behaving their way because of their thing.

Oh, no. No, you weren't. It didn't sound like that. I just mean in general when we talk about men being emasculated. Yes. It's often, 99.9%, has to do with a female. It's not necessarily the female that's doing the emasculating, but it's because there's a female involved.

I think that's common, but I think what is more often the case in childhood is just one man exerts his authority over you. He says, you can't play with this. You can't do this. Someone, because of their physical presence, takes the role over you. Right. And that also is very emasculating and very regular.

Yeah, it's almost, I mean, I'm only thinking about this now that we're talking about it. Like the Tupac stuff, I think, was just like male-on-male emasculation. Right. For the most part. But like what you're saying is, you know, someone has control over you and that's emasculating. It's interesting because we choose that word for men.

But that happens to women all the time too. And we don't use that word. We would say like dehumanizing or something like that. And so we could choose to just make that universal a little more. I guess the reason it's worthwhile to keep them specific is I think masculinity is not a part of the female identity by and large. There are certainly women who want to be masculine. I'm not saying there are not exceptions, but in general, a woman's not afraid of her masculinity being taken and that that would have an impact on identity. Femininity being stolen

affects identity. Like these women who are shamed or thought to have made to feel bad because they're not fertile. That's the female example of it. They are less than women because of this thing. That's true. But the masculinity that we're saying that the men are afraid to lose, the quality that we could parallel that word to is power and control. And women do want and need power and control. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's interesting. I just think it's, the reason I think it's worth being specific is it's a part of identity.

Yeah, but I guess what I'm saying is I think for a lot of women, and maybe more and more now, hopefully more and more now, power and control is more and more of a part of female identity too. I hope. I know it's part of your kids. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of that strong hugger. But I agree.

It's often women are often in the triangle of this emasculation. That's the whole point I think that's most important. It's like none of this is separated. It's not like men have a problem and women don't have a problem or women have a problem and men don't have a problem. It's like it's this crazy yin and yang system where we're all kind of suffering at different points in it. Yeah. Or benefiting at different points in it. Yeah. Or benefiting at different times from it. True.

True. True. Very true. I'm not lonely. Oh, you're not lonely. I made a friend. Who? He's a robot.

Oh, my God. And a boy. Oh, he respects the fact that But he's not masculine Okay No I was liking what I was liking that he was respecting that the robot was also a boy Yeah that was nice of Elmer

Oh man Well Well in summation about that episode I would say that that was such a fucking lucky experience. Very. We get those every now and then. I know. And they really put the wind in my sails. Good.

Yeah, it's really cool. That was a dumb word. I think you were thinking of radical. No, I hate that word. Yeah, just grateful, I guess. Me too. Yeah, I said to her after we recorded and we were chatting, I said, I really think it's so important to hear that story and stories like it to show that love doesn't look perfect. Or how it is in a movie. Yeah. Love is so much bigger than these traditional boxes. Yes. Couldn't agree more. It's so good to hear it and

hear people accept that and live their life really in that way and not be stuck in this paradigm. And live their life really in that way and not be stuck in this paradigm. And these labels that you only use so that other people can understand it. Like you know in your heart. Yeah. Love and security and safety, all of those things. Yeah. So I'm really grateful. It is funny.

It's like one of these great lies. It's like everyone's pointing fingers, but everyone, too, is in a relationship. And all relationships are so fucking complicated. And they're failing on some levels and succeeding on others. And there's such a gamut of ways they could be good or bad. And you get to pick what is the thing you value the most. I've said a million times on here, like, if I get to pick between a super engaged present partner or one that's fucking out to sea but faithful, who cares? Yeah.

I don't need your fidelity if, you know, there's no connection. Who cares? Yeah. And that's my definition. That's yours. Yeah. Someone else has the opposite, you know. Exactly.

has the opposite, you know? Exactly. It's just the two people get to decide it because based on their own backgrounds, histories, damage, strength, you get to make your own rules. It is curious or I guess expected, but how quick people could be to hate two people that really have been

kind of joyous and lovely fixtures. The rumor mill, you know, they said she was scientologist this is in the book they said she was a scientologist they said they're both gay right they said you know there's been every rumor about those two yeah i mean that's this world if you are on top in any sort of way you're a target i mean and you i think you have to i was saying this on synced the other day that i think like what we do here, take it out of the industry or whatever, you know, sometimes we take some hits. Or I think her and I, she was like, I don't know about saying something.

And I was like, you know, for me, the hits are worth the positive. Right. Oh, there's a saying for that. The juice is worth the squeeze. Okay. I'm going to. You don't like that? I don't love it.

Really? Because. What's the problem with that? It's not a problem. I cannot. I don't have to love it. Okay. I'm just asking what is offensive.

I just don't. I think it's like not an onomatopoeia. I don't know. It's not an onomatopoeia. That's true. I grant you that. I don't have a problem with it at all. I think it's great.

We're going to experience a lot of negative stuff, but I think the positive stuff outweighs it. Yeah. And people feeling seen and known is worth it. Yes. And it doesn't matter. It's just your truth. Like, ultimately, it's just your truth and your authenticity. And Easter egg, that's all you have.

That's all you got. Authenticity is truly all you have. Oh, yeah. Oh, ding, ding, ding. and Easter egg, that's all you have. Authenticity is truly all you have. Oh, yeah. Oh, ding, ding, ding, good Easter egg. We have some fun people coming up. Wild things coming your way. Wild. Wild.

Wild women, the wild women. The ripping and the tearing, the ripping and the tearing. Rick, why do you like hedonism? If you guys have not seen that video, wow. Wow. Wow. One of the greats. If you had, list me your three favorite YouTube videos of all time.

Oh, God. Too hard? That's not easy for me because, yeah. Yeah, there's just so many. There isn't. I'm not, that's not my pool. You're laying. It's really not.

Although I do love the one. I love the pot guy. My wife, I think my wife and You're laying. It's really not. Although I do love the one. I love the pot guy. My wife. I think my wife and I are dead. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. The cop who's consumed too much weed. That's a great one.

My favorite's gonna always be Angry RV Man. God damn it, that one. That one's brought me more pleasure than anything else. For sure. Meet the mini-winnie. Style in a Class C motorhome. I get so goddamn diuretic with this. You love it.

I love it. And then fucking Rick from Hedonism, The Rippin' and the Tarrin. If you search The Rippin' and the Tarrin, The Rippin' and the Tarrin. But I do want to also say, put it out in the universe, you know, I struggle so much.

One of my main issues i guess is i'm like desperate for someone um who has my back it's a through line it's a thing for me yeah that i work on in therapy and it is so special to see this relationship because they just have each other's backs. Yeah, you can say whatever you want about them. Regardless of anything. And having your back doesn't mean that they had to stay married. Right. Which is really cool.

Yes. I think. You know, my mom and dad were very much that way till death. Yeah. It was very cool. It is. Yeah. My mom didn't ever not pick up the phone from my dad and vice versa.

I think I'm that way. If Carrie or Brie, I would definitely be like, yeah, whatever. I'm there. It's a little, yeah. I mean, maybe just because they're both not remarried. So that feels. They're both married. They are.

Carrie and Brie? No. Will and jada i'm so sorry it's like oh my god oh yeah you didn't know yeah they're both remarried i mean i think i get ah it's tricky because this is this is my fight in my head all the time okay she said in the interview she's like that's my guy-huh. I feel like when you're in a relationship, you can't, like, Brie and Carrie are loves of your life and you'll always be there for them. Right. And that's beautiful, right? You're a staple in their life.

But they're not your girl. Your girl's Kristen. Right. Yes, yes. But yes. And that's, that is, there's a difference, I Kristen. Right. Yes, yes. But yes. And that is, there's a difference, I think. Right. So anyway, I just think it's sweet and lovely.

Well, then do you want me to hit you with the fucking knockout punch from the chapter? What? They're married again? They did ayahuasca together. They're separated. Right. They do ayahuasca together and they're in the throes of it. And she said, you're a king in my heart.

And he said, you're a queen in my heart. Why do you think you get so emotional about it? It's just fucking beautiful. It is. It's like those videos I watch. It's in spite of everything. Yeah, it is. It's in spite of everything. Yeah, it is. It's in spite of everything.

Life is hard. It's hard for two people to come together. And it's just like those videos. It's the monkeys doing the nicest thing they do. Yeah. It feels so rare. And it's the antidote to everything. All my fear, all my hate, all my everything is that stuff.

Yeah. It's really nice. nice it is yeah it's the opposite of everything you see on tv and in the news and on social media i know it does feel like oh there's good it's the closest i can get to spirituality it's like yeah man these little monkeys they will bond to each other in a way that's so sweet yeah it is it is all right well that's my 11th cry of the day so let's uh let's wrap it up let's wrap it up i love you i love you too you know no matter what point in your life who can you call bill me and Me and Ashok and Bill. And the Ghostbusters.

And the Ghostbusters. Don't forget the ghosties. All right. Well, love you. I love you.