Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - James L. Brooks (director and producer)

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

James L. Brooks (Ella McCay, The Simpsons, Taxi) is an Emmy, Golden Globe, and Academy Award-winning screenwriter, director, and producer. James joins the Armchair Expert to discuss being an industrious high school reporter interviewing Louis Armstrong and Anne Bancroft, his lucky break as a studio page bringing Edward R. Murrow coffee, and co-creating the Mary Tyler Moore Show with Alan Burns. James and Dax talk about why there’s no better job in the world than on a television show that’s working, seeing Andy Kaufman perform as the vile Tony Clifton for the first time, and that he thinks you go legally insane when directing. James explains what it was like giving notes to Jack Nicholson, starting The Simpsons which is still the longest-running scripted show in history, and what makes a contemporary female heroine in his new screwball comedy Ella McCay.Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert. Experts on expert. I'm Jan Shepard. Hello. And I'm joined by Monica Padman.

We have an absolute titan of show business today. James L. Brooks. He is an Academy Award-winning director, producer, and screenwriter. writer. He wrote and directed as good as it gets, terms of endearment, broadcast news, the Mary Tyler Moore Show, The Simpsons. Wow. One of the creators of The Simpsons. And he helped bottle rocket. He produced bottle rocket, which was a mess when he first heard it, as we'll learn. He has a new movie in theaters December 12th, Ella McKay. This was a delight. Barry Norman Lear-esque created like a real genre of TV that persists today.

He broke a lot of barriers. He did, he did. Barriers. He broke through a lot of barriers. He broke things. Please enjoy James L. Brooks. He's an unchained square. He's an alt-chamist's fun.

He's an unchastard. How you doing? So good. How are you? Pleasure. Yeah, great to meet you, Dax. Am I free to call you, Jim? Yes.

Okay, great. Are you someone who's perpetually early? I try and be on time. I used to be the reverse and then change my act. Because someone forced you to or he just did some soul searching? I was working with an actor who has to remain nameless who was always late. Always late. I flew and he said I'd pick me up.

No, don't pick me up. I'll get there. Don't pick me up. Two hours late waiting there. Oh. This is a big star where I'm really. really. I think I finally figured out that it was a sort of social distancing thing because every interaction would begin with him apologizing for 20 minutes.

Oh, interesting. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, what a time suck. It's like you're late and you got to apologize for so long. The day's gone. Let's try this again tomorrow. So you were born in Brooklyn in 1940, but how quickly do we move to New Jersey? I was two, I think. So that's my only memory, really. How far from the city were you in New Jersey? were up a hill that was directly across from 72nd Street in New York City where I ended up getting an apartment one day. And as a kid, I was looking across down the hill at that. And then at one point you were looking back at home. It was almost if you drew a straight line. Yeah. And that hit me one day. Yeah. Did it feel you with satisfaction? It was emotional because I was not in a great environment

and I was not a happy kid. Yeah, I get to talk to people with a lot of childhood stuff, myself included. But yours is really up there publicly so dad leaves mom the second she's pregnant with you yes i think it explains your career in a big way and maybe you'll agree with me or not agree with me but i was raised by a single mother who was a gangster who was working nonstop and building a career and i was in the shadow of a very impressive woman and i think it helped me throughout my life have an appropriate amount of respect for women and i'm just wondering if you think being raised by just just your mom watching her kill herself and all that played a role, ultimately. Well, it was my mom and my sister was eight years older than I.

Oh, okay. So she was saddled with me quite a bit. It's ever the regret of my life that my mom couldn't see some good things happen to me. She was 22 when she died? No, no, no, no. I mean, I'm sorry, you were 22 when she died. Yeah, yeah, yeah, obviously she was going to have both of you with an eight-year gap. Yeah.

My sister had become divorced, so she moved home. I had a job as an usher in New York that I commuted to after high school. And between the three of us, life became a little easier economically. With the both of them contributing? But she worked six days a week, two nights a week. What was she doing? She sold children's clothes. Oh, wow.

And your dad was a furniture salesman? Furniture salesman. Do you think you were imbued with that sense of, like, go get them, walk into a room, went him over? Was that stuff trickling down to you? Maybe the opposite. But my father was more than a salesman. he was a Cheat-O man, takeover.

That means if somebody was walking out of the store without buying, he'd stop him at the door and try and get him back. So that's the kind of salesman he was. That's hardcore. They've already declared they don't want this. So he was in your life still? At that point, yes. He left when I was maybe 13.

Oh, got it. Now, did you have any contact with him? Did he get to observe any of this stuff? Or did he observe from afar? He was a bad guy. Yeah, you described kind of being lonely in that period. You were by yourself quite a bit, I imagine. Yes.

All right, let's break this now. Is this stuff uncomfortable for you? Yeah, tell me, tell me. Is this uncomfortable? Yeah. It is. Yeah. Okay.

No, I like, this is my rap. I'm right at home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no. I just think all these seeds are there. In my loneliness, I decided to write. Writing was a world in which I had total control and power and say over what everyone did. That was a relief.

I love that. Different things bring different people to writing for different reasons. And I'm just curious how much of that you think is in the soup. I was in high school and I was the bullied kid. Okay. As a matter of fact, at a certain point, a long time ago, but I got into thinking about the guy who bullied me so much when I was in high school and I made an effort to find out what happened to him. Federal judge. Oh, wow. Wow. I was expecting worse for him. I know, that's what you want. Some bullies are kind of industrious, I guess. Oh, gosh. I mean, I guess in some ways, He's still a bully.

No, I was looking for much work. Yes, yes. Perhaps the turnaround salesman that gets people at the door. T.O., what did you call? Take over. Take over, take over. You were pursuing writing, and you were writing comedy stuff when you were young, and you were submitting. I wrote for the school newspaper.

We were a high school of 300, and I was very resourceful in getting exclusive interviews with very big celebrities. Louis Armstrong? And that's what I always say, blessed moment in my life. and I was alone with him backstage as a kid reporter I asked him a question that he hadn't been asked how do you take care of your lips

oh really and he lit up and he brought out draws of stuff turned out to be a major part of his prep performing yeah right trumpeters are neuronic about their mouth right it's everything there's a draw full of like ointments and top of us yeah yeah yeah oh my god was he

applying any of them in front of you or he was delighted to show his kid. How did you get in touch with him? I don't know how I did it. I did letters. I somehow got myself backstage as a high school kid with Anne Bancroft, who was then just crazy, the gorgeous Toast of Broadway. I was trying to flirt with her.

I think he was in her 20s of the time. I'm a high school kid or something like that. She was very nice. I saw her standing in a circle. I second acted. You know what second acting is? No. I worked as an usher.

And as I walked home, this is my after school job. I walked through the theater district in New York, and I walked in at precisely the time that they had the break between first and second acts. You look for a stub, and you sneak into the theater, and you go to the worst seats. You don't go to a hit, so I saw the second act of everything. Okay, you kind of sneak in and getting in a free second act.

Were you very enamored by celebrities? Specific ones. I mean, when I saw Bancroft, she was talking to, I think, Mike Nichols, and I was shaking. Yeah. And I went over to her, and I'm 17 years old. or 16, 17 years old. This bankrupt, I have this play.

Oh, wow. She said, sent it to me. So I, of course, dropped it off. And I got a note from her. I guess it was a letter. I don't understand your play. I'm sorry. Oh, my God.

What feedback. I don't understand it. I'm sorry, I don't know why. Oh, wow. But if you're ever in the neighborhood of such and such theater and want to talk to me, I'm there. So it was this amazing thing. Yeah.

I mean, so it was explosive for me. When you came to know, Cameron Crow, many years later, did you find that shared history endearing to you that he had had that similar super young working at homes? He was a underkin. He was a hit reporter for Rolling Stone when he was 15 years old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure you were the hit of your high school.

You're securing these. No, everybody resented it because there'd always be a picture of the high school kid with a celebrity. So my picture was in the paper all the time. Sure, sure. The athletes hated. Their picture wasn't in the paper all the time. Fueling that federal judge. Yeah, really.

A son of a bitch did it again. He's a Louis Armstrong. So you do end up going to NYU after high school, but then you leave because you have a job at CBS News? No, because I screwed up because it was the first time where I was happy. High school had been awful. And somehow I started to have a normal kid's life in college. And it was because there was a fraternity that had a townhouse and was on campus and I got in there.

And then it was better than anything I'd known. I had a lot of friends and a girlfriend, so I just didn't go to class. Okay. You know, it was awful. That's what happened. You were having too much fun to go to class. Yeah, I was having my first fun.

I'm glad you prioritized that. My sister got me a job as an usher. It was my first lucky break. And usually you had to be a college graduate at that time to be anything because that was the first put in the door, and then they started to theoretically promote you. Yeah. And then I got another great lucky break because they used,

They call them pages. And we filled in for notches above us jobs when the notches above us job went on vacation. And I got a notches above me fill-in job as a copyboy at CBS News. For the news. Yeah. And the guy never came back.

That was a big break. So I got that job. I could never have gotten any other way. And then you are a full-time employed copywriter for CBS News? I'm just cleaning out the machines. You're looking at somebody who brought Edward Armaro coffee. Oh, wow, wow, wow.

Yeah, yeah. You're like a magnet to celebrity. I know. When do you start writing there? I was promoted to a newswriter. I had gotten over my fears, gotten over the hump. For some reason, I was afraid I'd end up selling women's shoes. I mean, I had an active fear of, you know, like you have a fear of insects or something like that.

Yeah. Was there a popular play where the protagonist sold women? That's like a trope. I mean, obviously, Al Bundy ended up doing it, and that was a trope. Well, maybe. I don't know how it worked out of it up. I think there's a trope about selling women. It is specific.

It is very specific. We have a friend who sold women's shoes. Yeah, but he loved it because he has a foot fetish. Why? Because he had a foot fetish or still has a foot fetish. We don't know if it started. It might have started a foot fetish. He worked for his dad's shoe place in downtown L.A.

And lo and behold, now he has a foot fetish. It's a very tough job. How on earth do you decide to leave the security of that job to come to L.A. in what, 1965? I was in love with a woman, and she and her roommate decided that they were going to move to California, and they did, and I quit.

Yeah, scary. Somebody I had known at CBS News had left and gone to do documentaries in California, and he gave me a job. Then I got laid off from that job after six months. My wife was supporting me for a while, and I was out of work for about six months, and then I got my first writing job.

You met Alan Burns at a party? Is that a parkerful or the truth? He had five shows on the air. The Monsters was his, some of the shows. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I met him at a party where we were grubby documentarians and it was New Year's Eve. And he came in from some fancy thing

and he was wearing a tuxedo and he's a great-looking guy. Looked wealthy. A beautiful human. Somehow I ended up saying, I want to write. And he got me a chance to write a show was my mother of the car. Right, right, right, right. Your first writing job.

Yeah. But that turned into you wrote episodes of the Andy Griffiths show. So, My Three Sons. We've won. Yes. Yes. And then that slowly snowballs into you creating room 211. Room 222.

Okay. And that's 1970, 1960, 69, 68, 69, somewhere in there. Now, this show's kind of shockingly ahead of its time in a lot of ways. It had only the second black lead character on a TV show ever. And the first to have more than one. Yeah, and they tried to talk you out of that at some point. It was tough sale. There's this guy, Gene Reynolds.

who was a very big director-producer and a ferociously ethical guy. So they try to say the pilot episode I wrote after so much research because he was a big research guy. He's the guy who taught you this technique. Which has stuck with me, insisted on it. Hey, I did it, I did it, I went to the high school. I hung with the teacher. Go back, go back, go back, go back, go back, go back, go back, go back, a lot.

So that what I thought would be a week of my life became months of my life. And I'm glad it stuck. Yeah, what specifically was revealed in that process that you found? So useful. Authenticity? You've unconsciously dug deeper by showing up again and again and again. It starts to be, oh, that's interesting to you. Take it in. You get it just by going back. Yeah, you carried that forward through all your projects. When you're thinking of approaching something, time is such a valuable commodity. How much time are you building in for that research? And is that ever cumbersome? It's great. You enjoy it. You step out of your life, you know. But you did 112 episodes of that show, I think. And it won an Emmy for the best new show. And because of this Gene Reynolds, it was the real deal. He wanted to get it right. He put the whip on us to get it right. So it was just a break getting mentored by somebody like that. And then next, you go on in 1970 to create Mary Tyler Moore show. Co-create with Alan Burns.

The nice gentleman from the New Year's Eve bar. Yes, yes. The dapper successful man. This show really deserves an examination. I guess I don't even think I realized, because I'm still five years from being born, so I didn't grow up watching it. Or excuse. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That was the first ever female lead that wasn't dependent on a man. That was like an independent, employed. I think so. Again, back to mom or where this comes from her older sister, this is kind of some pioneering stuff you're doing. Before this, the great comedy on the air, the thing where you say, that can be that kind of quality, was the Dick Van Dyke Show, which won the Emmy, all the Emmys every year for ever and ever.

It was Carl Reiner, and it was Sheldon Leonard, and it was really everybody's Bible. I mean, you just were in awe. A lot of famous writers on that show, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were just in awe of the show. And then she had an on-the-air commitment from CBS, and strangely, they gave us the shot. And was that embraced immediately by Mary Tyler Moore?

Yes, the network didn't want us. Okay. It was sort of amazing because it's an infamous story. But when we went to pitch and we pitched through a semi-circle of executives, we had come in with the idea that Mary B divorced and she had to build a new life. One of these eight guys, the guy, the programming guy, said there are three things that the public doesn't like. Divorce, Jews, and men with mustaches. Oh, wow.

What a list. Looking at me who had a mustache and there's a Jew, as he said it, it sounds surreal. it's happened. Were you divorced yet? Maybe you were three out of three. I was going to say you were two out of three, but maybe you were three out of three. He came from divorce, so he experienced it. Wow. That feels very specific to you. Yes. We were asked to leave the room, and Grant stayed, and he came out, and he looked pretty angry, and he said, let's go. And two or three years later, we found out they had ordered him to fire us, and he said no. Wow. So Mary Tyler Moore Show has this epic seven-year run.

You guys get nominated for Emmys. Do you win a Peabody for this show? Is this the first? I'm not sure. We're obsessed with the Peabody. You've got a couple of them, I think. I'm sure he won for that. If it exists, I don't know how long it's been around.

He racked up some Peabody's. I just feel like this is maybe the first one. Did you have any awareness that what you were doing was unique as far as writing a female-driven show? Did you have a sense of that? Or did it just feel like, this is any other show? and I'm not even really thinking of it as anything unique. You know, I came from a newsroom. And you said it in a newsroom.

The character of her boss was pretty much based on somebody who was sort of a legendary editor. So there was some personal writing in it for me. It's scary to take on, I think, writing for a woman at that time and a very strong character we didn't normally see. Was it scary or no? You guys were just like, no, this is normal. It was a ball.

Yeah, I bet. It was thrilling. And Grant at that time was the vice president of a student of a studio so he could not knowingly participate in it. He couldn't really talk to us because he'd be crossing some line someplace to really do it. So we didn't have a boss. We didn't have anybody to answer to for that moment. We need somebody's approval finally.

But not even that because she had an on-the-air commitment. It was amazing. And we were innocent. So it was even better. It's fun to work on a hit show as well that's getting recognized too, right? There's no better job in the world than working on a television show that's worked. You know, because you get community. You can't quite get into movies.

The movie I just finished, it was a fantastic relationship with everybody. It really was great. But when you have a series, babies get born. People get married. You're all growing up together. I did six years on a show, and it's like the happiest work experience in my life. Best job. Yeah, watching people get married and have kids, all those things, really being a part of their life.

And it has the illusion of security like the rest of it doesn't. It's like, you at least know you're going there 22 times this year. And then hopefully next time, it's a covenant. role to have. And then you have some spinoffs from that. You do Rhoda and then you do Lou Grant. That's the one that wanted Peabody. Now I have my notes. You got your first Peabody for Lou Grant. I want to add, so Mary Tyler Moore is doing this thing where you guys are tackling kind of popular, important issues within the framework of a sitcom. Norman Lear becomes ultimately very recognized as doing that as well. But you are doing that with the Mary Tyler Moore show.

As the whole notion of women is changing, the timing was exquisite. Women are hitting the workforce and record numbers and divorce is high. I have deja boo because the movie that I just finished also has this central character. Also, her name is in the title, Al-M-a-K. It's so crazy that I hadn't quite gotten that. The connective tissue between those? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. A whole circle. We're inventing a paradigm right now, which is like we're going to talk about some serious stuff. In a comedy, that's just rare and unique. Were you aware of, oh, this is new, or it was just happening and in retrospect? You're like, oh, I guess we did create something. We followed it all in the family, which was breaking down every door and everything that was revolutionizing. So we got to be the show after the show breaking down every door.

We walked in the door. Okay. The Vanguard had come through. Now, this one, I got to say just because now this is the first show I'm old enough to consume in love. I would have thought this show is on for 10 years, which is taxi. Do you think Taxi's a little bit like Shawshank Redemption where people think it was bigger or more successful than it was? We followed a formulaic comedy that was the number one show.

So we got seen. Emmys came our way. We still have Zoom reunions. It was that championship season. People looked in the rearview mirror and said, that was the time of my life. We knew it was the time of our life then. That's lucky. We didn't wait for a rearview mirror.

We relished it, man. It was great. Yeah, I want to know the things that made it great. On the outside, it looks like the most obvious thing to me is you took all this cultural capital you had acquired, and you used it to assemble really the craziest cast maybe ever on TV at that point, or definitely of your shows, right? I wanted to do men, seven years. I wanted to do men. And blue collar was a goal as well. Yeah.

And then there was a magazine article in New York Magazine about a small taxi company in New York. And the article pointed out that they all had Johnny Tomorrow Dreams. They wanted to be this. They wanted to be an actor. And there was something, you know, Eugene O'Neill about it. Yeah. We went to the research thing. So I'm in a cab company, and I'm there for a day where I was just there for 14 hours.

They knew I was there for research. And the guy who ran it, the manager, who was in the cage dispatching tattoo. The Danny DeVito? The real guy, a cab driver, was slipping him money to get a clean cab, a cab in good condition. The whole character came from that one. Sure, he's like, he's sleazy on the grip. So that was just, God bless it, you know, just landing in your lap. And then some of them, when they got off work, they were still hanging around.

They didn't know why they were hanging around. And then this guy came in and all the others, the article had been about they all wanted to be something else. And when I asked him and he was charismatic, you could see the buzz when he came in. And he says, me, I want to be a cab driver. That became what made our hero hero. Oh, so cool. He wanted to be there. Danny DeVito, had he been in stuff? Is that a discovery? It's a famous audition.

Oh, it is. Because we were looking and looking and looking. If you know the show, you know the character, or his audition, he came in, and the first thing he did was throw the script on the floor and say, who wrote this shit? Oh, very great. And we fell on the floor, and he was the guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danny DeVito before you've seen Danny DeVito. And what about, I mean, Andy Kaufman? You may be the craziest comedian of all time having to show up on set at a certain time and be this thing predictably. How did you come to get him? It's hard to explain a unique guy for people to imagine what he was. But I went to a club where he was performing. And I'm waiting to see him. And there's this awful comic who's on stage, not only unfunny, but vile and insulting people in the audience.

Is his name Tony? Tony Clifton. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, you knew that? How'd you done that? You'll hear one. Oh, okay, okay. Incredible.

You got to see Tony Clifton perform. Yeah, and just offending and people hooting. He's lucky if he doesn't get beat up on stage. And his manager comes up and whispers and says, that's Andy. And Andy was in all this thing. And it's just mind-blowingly brilliant. And never gives it away. And then comes out as Andy and does foreign man and is hysterical and does the things that if you Google it,

you'll see what he did then. Wow. Tolerance to be hated. I just can't comprehend doing these Tony Clifton sets. And he would go occasionally on talk shows as Tony Clifton. But maybe that's a way to do it because it's not him. He's putting on this disguise. You did Tony Clifton.

And in order to be on the show, on taxi, he said you have to hire Tony Clifton as well. And you have to give him his own dressing room. So there are two dressing rooms. Oh, my God. Why were you willing to play ball? I love that you were. Is Andy Kaufman, man. Yeah, wow.

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Hey there, arm cherries. Guess what? It's Mel Robbins. I'm popping in here, taking out my own ad. Holy cow. Dax, Monica and I, I don't want this conversation to end, and I'm so glad you're here with us. And the other thing, I can't believe, Dax loves the Let Them Theory. He can't stop talking about it. I hope you're loving listening as much as I love having you here. And I also know, since you love listening to Armchair Expert, you know what you're going to listen to, the Let Them Theory audiobook. And guess who reads it? Me. And even if you've read the book, guess what? The audiobook is different. I tell different stories. I riff. I cry. You're You're going to love it because it's going to feel like I'm right there next to you.

We're in this together as we learn to stop controlling other people. So thanks again for listening to this episode of Armchair Expert and check out the audiobook version of the Let Them Theory read by yours truly. Available now on Audible. You can even try it out for free with an Audible trial. Download the Audible app today. Hey, basketball fans, Steve Nash here. Ready to elevate your basketball IQ.

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real heart of basketball. Watch mind the game now on YouTube, prime video, or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Tony had his own dressing room. Yeah. And he's seminal. He started performance art. I think there's a time when he was wrestling. He wrestled women. He insulted women and then said wrestle me. I can beat any women. Then they would really wrestle. And then he went in a real wrestling ring and got hurt. And it was a front page story because he was known at that point. Yes, he hurt his neck and he came out in a neck brace. He went on a tour bashing the guy who heard him. And then I found out it was fake. And it was on front pages. You're just going to sue the guy. And he wanted a rematch.

If you watch the thing, it's a body slam where he's upside down and a guy holding him goes like that so that you're wincing, but when you really slow it down, you see that it was set up. You see that he stopped just short of the slam, and they made the noise. Yeah. But yeah, are you on set? Like, who's going to show up today? Yeah, sort of.

And Tony showed up with two prostitutes one day. Sure, yeah. That adds up. Wow. Did you shoot that here or in New York? We shoot it here. My partner at Weinberger, who Andy had told this was going to happen, and he said, Ed, I need you to really punish me, but punish Tony when he comes in.

And he comes in with the two prostitutes. Ed goes crazy, calls the security guards who are not in on it. Oh, no. The security cards, like almost in a cartoon, drag them and throw them out of the gate. Where he calls Ed and said, thanks. That was one of the greatest. And what I just love is, like, it's for nobody but him. Yeah.

What purity? Did you feel like you got to know Andy, were there moments? of sincerity. No, it was sort of great because you'd go over and give him a note and he'd do it exactly but as you gave it to him

he'd be like Andy wondering who you were and stuff like that but then he did the notes solidly because he stayed in Lanka? Yeah, he did amazing work on the show. I mean, like crazy. If you're a kid

and you don't know about Annie Kaufman you're watching that guy, you think that guy's real. It's a very good character. Yeah. How exciting that you cast him. He came from a country that he invented a language

you know, he talked a foreign language. He was vaguely. Eastern Europe, Jewish language on the show, and so that we can make up the customs of this mythical country and got episodes out of it. Wow, what a gift. Okay, and then Christopher Lloyd, was he a known commodity? He and Danny had both been in Cuckoo's Nest, you know, as far as that group.

The most memorable scene of all the taxi episodes that made me laugh the hardest is Jim, Christopher Lloyd's character, is having to pass the driver's license exam. It's the record-setting laugh. I don't know we can render it, but basically you have to know the character who was burnt out from drugs. That was basically it. He's the dumbest guy imaginable.

He shouldn't be driving a cab. Everything's missing, but with everything missing, he has sort of a blissful humanity and insight. Kind of a Chauncey Gardner. Yes, and he's a cab driver, and they find out he doesn't have a driver's license. So he has to take them to help him cheat. He can, and the whole company comes

and pretends they're filling out forms while he's in the desk taking the test. He says, what does a flashing yellow light mean? They coach him and they say slow down. He says, what does? Oh, shit. What? Okay.

This is the permutations. We went eight times, ten times. Each time, the laugh bigger than the time before. Because as you'd imagine, he's going slowly. Slower. The last one is like, what? The last one and the audience, it's gone like this. And the editor says, cut.

And I went crazy because it was just when are they going to stop increasing their laughter? Let's find out. Let's blow it up. Yeah, I can get upset now. I am a little upset. Yeah, what a thing to witness, you to witness the greatest laugh in life's audience ever. Oh, you must go watch it. Everyone should take five minutes and watch that.

It's so delightful. And then I'll throw Tony Dan's in there, too. When he walks in, he's so Tony Danza. Are you immediately like, oh, this is ideal? I don't think he'd ever acted, and he was a fighter, and I went to see him fight. No kidding. There was a very rough sort of boxing world guy, and he says, can't win, but he has a great punch. If he lands, he knocks you out.

He was the middleweight. How was even in contention to act in this thing if he hadn't act, and he was boxing? I really believe we were looking for a boxer because everybody had a dream in the cab company and his was. I don't know if anyone's looked better in a wife, Peter, than our friend Tony Danza. Boy, can you wear that tank top? Okay, now, you've had all this crazy success in television up to taxi. What is the pull to movies?

Is it a more expansive creative space? Or is it ego? Or is it both? I can truly say it's not ego. But for people that were not born in the 90s and have watched television have as much cachet as films, people need to understand that back then, film and television... At the time I got there, if you were in television, you were unhireable in films.

Right. There was a wall up. They were contemptuous of us from TV. It's so crazy how radically that has changed. Yeah. I mean, you can't make an inch without somebody off in your movie. It's almost impossible for you to conceive. Absolute wall.

Get out of here if you're from television. And I think Ron Howard was the first one over the fence. And then I got there. So the first movie starting over, Candice Bergen and Jill Claibor both get nominated for Academy Awards. I didn't direct that. He just wrote it.

Yeah. Not just. So you really had nothing to do with that. Okay, so you write that one, and that gets you into the film world, and the film is successful and critically adored. This kind of shocks me. The next movie's terms of endearment. Iconic.

Again, what an insane cast. This shocks me. It took you four years to get. financing for this movie? Did you have the cast already? No. It was a book you adapted, yeah? Yeah. What's saying to you about that? Why was that like, oh, I'll spend four years trying to get this made? When I read the book, it was the second time of my life that I cried when I got to the ending. I've since. Had a couple more tears. Improved on that. Kids will do that to you. For the second time of my life, I cried. You're not going to walk away. I had to do it.

And it was a very tricky road because there was a movie star of decades earlier who had the rights and wanted to play the Shirley MacLean part. She was wrong for the part that she wanted to do. That was tricky or a hurdle. Well, it was just being patient. I had the most amazing time because it was actresses in their 50s. It was the part that comes along when all that shit is happening about age and all that. Yeah. So I just had this time of sitting down with great.

women who had done great work, almost all of them at that time. And I hadn't come to Shirley yet for some reason, and she had a super agent. I remember the name, she was the reigning agent of the time, Sue Mangers. She called me and she said, you know, Pots, you haven't seen Shirley yet. When are you coming? And then I went to see her, and that was it. How did you get Nicholson? Deborah Winger got me at Nicholson.

She did. Yeah, because I couldn't get a script to him, you know. Right. I mean, DeVito's a shoe in, right? You're going to get DeVito. He's got to pick up the phone and be in this. That makes sense. But Nicholson, she got him in.

And what was your working relationship with him? Actor of his time, the talent was so great. But that kind of talent with all the charisma in the world, what are you kidding me? And, you know, we did a picture as good as it gets where if he didn't do it, nobody could do it because he had permission from people to play this wretched core character as a star of a movie.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I wouldn't have made it. It was the only one you could get away with it. Yeah. He's the only one that could have pulled that off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's everything.

Was it easy for you to give him notes, or was it intimidating? You go legally insane when you direct, I think. You're in such a bubble. That's it. You don't know the difference between right and wrong anymore. You're obsessed with one flawed. Everything else slips away, yeah. You're being paid to be obsessed.

Past reason. Wake up, think of nothing else do you go to bed for months? Yeah. So it wasn't hard for you. No, you lose yourself in it. You go away and you're trying to serve the thing. I mean, you have to get out of your own way. Now, I've never met him, I haven't worked with him, but I have a hunch.

If he wanted, he could charm you out of anything you wanted, I guess is my hunch, because he's so charismatic. I'm fompering because you can't convey it, but he'd come up to me and say, you want to know the worst direction you gave today. And then he'd also say, you want to know the best direction you gave today? Uh-huh. He worked, we worked. You know, it wasn't like, is he okay today? He did the work. This is just to geek out for one second on Jack Nicholson.

One of my favorite things is The Departed, simply because we've got every single one of the actors. Like, let's bring them all in and let's put them in a wide shot and let's just see who you stare at. And I just kept thinking the whole movie, oh, yeah, man, there could be two bears fighting. And if Nicholson's in frame, I'm just on them. That's just a once in a lifetime kind of impossible charisma. Historically fantastic. What a dude. Okay, so that movie is just wildly.

successful. I'm wondering how you took that in. You win best adapted screenplay. You win best picture. You win best director. Nicholson wins best supporting. You sweep the Oscars. A, had you written multiple speeches in anticipation of going up over and over again? Or what was the experience like on the night where you caught with your pants down? The first one was, I think, for writing. And it was everything that should be. It was joyous. It was great. Yeah, yeah. I was good, man.

I sat down. Oscars there. Can I argue really quick, too? If of any of those categories that you might have felt worthy of, it'd be the writing. You've been writing forever. It's not going to cue up any impostor syndrome. But perhaps some of the others could not be as embraced so easily. You're absolutely right.

So what's going on when you go up the second time? Yeah, I keep getting more. You went for directing. The actors got you there. I don't think there's any question about that. The third one, just my mind was. So I was just sort of staggering. And Debra did this amazing thing because she was great in the film.

And everybody else has won in these Oscars. We're all posing for pictures afterwards. And Deborah, we're holding ours. She holds an imaginary Oscar. So she was great. Well, I happen to know I've read some of your feedback afterwards. And you framed it as like it adds a heightened self-consciousness. That's really something you have to contend with.

So there's that. And I want to hear your opinion on that. But then I'm curious just with your childhood, because I have this, did you also have this enormous sense of the other shoe must drop soon? This is all too good. Did you have that suspicion that it's just all too good? I mean, I think the great thing is you get to make your next picture. It's currencies.

Yes. So that was really what I thought. I get to make another movie. And it goes without saying you loved making terms of endearment, I'm imagining. Loved is not the word I do, but I guess it's true. You wanted to do it again, minimal, yeah? to do it again. Yes.

Whatever we can infer from that. Then the next movie's broadcast news. Again, what a fucking sensational movie. And your taste is so good. Holly Hunter for me is like, my God. It was such an accident that I got her. I got her at the last minute. I still pay homage to the casting director.

She had put up with me for six months that I couldn't find anybody. And we auditioned people. And I had somebody that I didn't feel great about, but that was what I was going to have to go with. And she says this, this girl is leaving town today, but you can see her. and it was Holly Hunter, and it was just God. Dropped her in your lap.

Yeah. Oh, and she's just going toe to toe with William Hur, and it is riveting. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. This is your first time working with Albert Brooks? Yes. And this then starts the confusion, obviously.

You've experienced this, right? People insist you must be related to this man. Your last name is Brooks and his last name is Brooks. Does it start then? He's an Einstein, Brooks. What does that mean in Einstein? His father's real name was Einstein. Oh.

And they called him Albert, and he did not want to be Albert Einstein. Right, okay. Oh, wow. And your dad changed the name to Brooks to appear to be Irish. He changed from Bernstein. He was the last man trying to pass. The change of his being Jewish. And he chose Irish, interesting.

Yes, yes. I was 12 years old. I thought I was Irish. Oh, no kidding. Younger than that, I was nine, and then suddenly I saw my paternal grandfather's name was Bernstein. And I slowly managed to put two and two together. Was he celebrating St. Patrick's Day with Extra Flourish? I think most nice a week he was celebrating St. Patrick's Day.

So then you're nominated for that film again for Best Picture and Screenplay, which is incredible. And now I want this to be how it is. It makes a good story. Maybe it's not true. But you had left television for all intents and purposes. And you get kind of drugged back into television that year of broadcast news, presumably to help a friend Tracy Oman? Not dragged back.

Okay. Somebody gave me a tape of who she was, and I'd never seen anybody an absolutely original talent. I dove back in. I love television, and nobody has to talk me into it. That's fair. Yeah. I guess what I want and what I like from this is you're already busy doing this thing,

but you saw this way that you could help with someone that was really talented. Not help, no. No. No. Okay, okay. Work with, exploit. Okay. Exploid.

Okay, great. It's not a great. You were rewarded regardless. Because if people who don't remember this whole trajectory, I do. I loved the Tracy Allman show. I was 12 years old when this show came out. On a network that nobody watched at the time. Which was what?

Fox. All you had was married with children. And this must have followed it because I saw it at some point. Maybe it launched off of that. At any rate, I saw it and I was already a huge fan saying it live. And I'm like, oh, this is wonderful. This is kind of like you're just with one character evolving. And then they would show these.

little kind of interstitial cartoons, and there was this character Bart Simpson, and then this becomes the Simpson. It's insane. Crudely drawn, Matt Graning, having drawn him while waiting to see me, he had a comic strip Life and Hell. In Life and Hell, he did the 12 Ways to Die in Hollywood, and it was road rage and being shot and failure and then success. That's what I love that.

So it was amazing. That's how we met off that. Do you have the original bar? I think I do. That's worth some of it. When this becomes its own show, The Simpsons, I guess two years after Tracy Allman launches, you have some interesting provision in your contract with Fox, where you kind of, I don't know what the verbiage is. Mileage?

Mileage. Well, now it has mileage, but then you had some kind of creative control that was unique. Yeah. It opened up a lot of episodes that otherwise wouldn't have happened. That's true. And it was a young network, and so I don't think you would have gotten it out of one that was established. Okay, so we are at the 36-year marker. This is the 36-year of the Simpsons.

It's won two Peabody's, 37 M-E's. I'm going to ask you a very tacky question you're going to hate, but I have to know. Well, maybe you don't have to. Yeah. You don't have to answer, but I have to ask it. No, I want to know because I'm such a nosy pig. is there a running tally of what this thing has generated over the last 36 years? Like, can you look and see the exact amount of money this thing has generated?

No, thank heavens. It has to be the most successful, though, Hollywood property of all times. It's the longest running scripted show in history. I mean, the movie alone made $500 million. I mean, we're in the many, many, many, many billions. I just think that's astounding. It doesn't matter. And it was five and a quarter. Yeah.

That doesn't mean a thing you heard, short 25 million. I'm going to ask chat, GPT, if I can tell me what the total and billions is. I love that. I think it's so rad when art can create an automaker. I just think that's fucking cool. The great thing is the energy on the show. Matt Graining and I are always around, but there's always a show and running it that's defining it, and now it's Matt Selman.

The amazing thing is the energy, the freshness, particularly right now, is just filled with energy and change. That's the impossible accomplishment. And you share it probably only with Serrient Live, which is to keep it fresh and on fire for that long. What a rare thing. It's great because nobody second guesses you at this point. It's just a great atmosphere and that thing about community again.

That's really excellent. Yeah, that is. All about the writers, yeah. Okay, you have your first setback with I'll do anything. I mean, we're in such a meteoric prize between TV and film. Yeah, here it is. How did you take that? Ow.

Yeah. Ow, right? It's hard. Al for about a year, yeah. What, it just didn't make what it needed to make. I did it as a musical. I didn't think anybody had to be real singers. And actually, at the core, there are things that I still am so glad got expressed.

Because there's a father-daughter relationship. Yeah, that's adorable and works. That really mattered to me. And there was a six-year-old girl who just gave an extraordinary performance, like crazy, Unallowed to happen Like against the laws of physics You know Yeah, yeah

It was a big failure And it was worse than that Because we previewed And we had a preview Where there were walkouts Oh, what an experience that is, isn't it? I went from that I apologized to everybody

I'd worked with To lead them into that The Los Angeles Times Found out about the preview And started to do a series of things So it just became You're spending a few months If you're alive blushing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, it's a unique experience. Yeah, I'm not telling I get a weird feeling It's my legs now. Can we talk about my new move? I've gone through it. And there's this sense when you're walking around that every human you see knows you've failed. I have had that at least.

Which is probably not true. It's not true at all. But you feel like every. It's a little true. Well. No. One thing I just want to thank you for because it goes in my top three comedies of all time, which is in 1996,

somehow you become involved with Bottle Rocket with Wes and Owen. Just the best. So great that you bring that up. That's the fucking movie. How on earth, you must have seen their short they made.

I saw the short that got honorable mention. You know, someplace. And I went to see them because I loved it. I went to see them in Texas. Flew to Dallas. They had a script, and the three guys turned out to be the cast and the writer and the director

were all living on the same floor. You know, but I mean the floor of one apartment with just refuse every place. You couldn't walk a straight line in one step without, you know. It was Owen, I'm trying to remember who the third person was. Maybe Luke? I think that's right.

And I said, have you ever read it out loud? They hadn't. Oh, wow. Three and a half hour later, I mean, it was a long stamp script in the world. And I said, it's all going to be about length. And I remember Wes looking at me, and he weighed like 80 pounds.

He lived in his car. Flash forward, I'm remember. in Paris and this gorgeous guy who owns the world in a white suit. This is a few years ago. Yeah, yeah. No, his life is an art installation now. Oh, my God. He has a unique career.

He was living in his car and, like, say, three and a half hour, he said, are you going to make the movie? And I said, I don't know, man. Not at three and a half hours. I said, why don't you come? And then I think there was six months of work that went in. Wow. Yeah.

And then they went away and made it. Yeah. Owen is on record as saying, I think you felt bad for us when you were. And then the reading was the worst reading ever. Sleeping bags on the floor and stuff. I think he felt bad for us. That's so cool that you got to be a part of the beginning of all of them because they all turned out to be so.

It's great. Yeah, you've gotten to do that a bunch of times. Yeah. That must be one of the more rewarding aspects of all this. Like the people you cast on taxi, the meeting Owen and Wes, all that stuff. That's great. Because you can only be so happy with your own accomplishments. But when you help other people accomplish stuff, it really feels good, no?

It's not about that. It's when the work is good, you feel good. And then things happen. But I think the cart and horse is very clear to me. I think you're too humble to say you've helped people. Yeah, that might be the case. No, but it's not true. Listen, he launched a bunch of careers and Simpsons is worth $150 billion.

I was an active part. Everybody came through for everybody. Yeah, I know. What you're saying is correct. Okay, the last one I want to talk about, and then L. McKay. As good as it gets, of course. Obviously, just a brilliant fucking movie, seven Academy Award nominations, incredible performances. But I have specific questions.

One is Trudeau, the dog, the Brussels-Greffon. Were you a fan of Brussels, or was this a happy accident? I've never heard a breed pronounce better than you just did. That was the Grifon. I haven't evolved love with an ex-girlfriend's Brussels. How did Trudeau come to be a character? Somebody had written a script that was not a comedy, but it had the characters a lot of of the story. And then I started working on it, and I feel that it was two people who were

partners in screenwriting, but they worked a year apart and separately the way it worked. And it never could have happened without him. And then it was right to change form into a comedy. So the dog was in his. And then you got to cast a dog, and it's going to be an important part. Figuring out how to piss on Q, which we ended up. The prop guy took care of that. The way it has to be is that you don't treat the dog. as an afterthought, the dog and his trainer, that you give them what you give to every actor. That was very important to give them the time,

to give them the stage, to give them the respect. What would you say was the thing that was working on that movie that you isolated and figured out and kind of doubled down on? You know how you have these moments really. Oh, this is the thing that's really working. The hardest part to cast was Greg Kinnear in that.

That took months and months. Two auditions that some people resent and some people really like because instead of an audition, I get involved, I make it a work session, we go over it again. And some actors resent it and some actors really appreciate it. It's the right way to work or else it's sort of bullshit. Let's try working together, you know.

Yes. Because the odds that they're going to come in and do it exactly as you want it, and then they're going to replicate that exact thing on the day are very slim. No, but you're just seeing the mesh. And I mean, you lose yourself. So you're not sitting there saying, show me. And you're trying to figure it out with them. Yes.

He was the toughest. The colleague told me about him, and I went to see him because that was impossible. I've never read so many actors for a part. Really? Yes. What were the essential ingredients? You don't know. That's why you can't, you know.

Yeah. You don't know vulnerability, but you don't want pathetic. It's a thin. Yeah. It's just an aura. Well, what a fucking movie. Okay. How does El McKay come about?

And the fact that Emma McKee is the star is very fucking confusing. And is that accidental or intentional? Did you write it with her in mind? I wrote Emma McKay and then when it was her, I just didn't want to change Emma McKay's name. Oh, you doesn't love. Oh, that's great. I just lived with it for so long like that. What was it called before she was in it?

Emma McKay. Oh, okay. It was always called that. And then the MM Mackey comes along after I spent, again, it was one of those stories like the Greg Kinnear story, went overseas, went to London, the hope that when you try and write this female character and catch something. And it's like, if you build it, will she come? Yeah. And this was a real process. Miraculously, she showed up.

And this is the first American starring role. She had one word in Barbie, but made an impact. Oh, wow. She's in sex education. Yes, and the Catherine Hepburn and Audrey Hepburn movies of the 50s, I adored. And this was me, just tribute, whatever it is. But that spirit, that screwball comedy, and then how do you do screwball comedy and clock the laughs and put meat on the bone so that you're really dealing with some of the crap that we go through and that can do us in and we're not careful. Yes.

And try and combine those two things, which. is what the picture is, because you're not telling the truth unless you show that part of life is a little tough, and I love screwball comedy. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. So, yeah, the movie starts out, and we meet Ella, and we find out that at 16, her father, Woody Harrelson, Your access to cast is a little enviable. The cast of this movie, yeah, yeah. Woody's an old friend, too.

We go back to before he did anything. Oh, you do. He's being fired because he has slept with several coworkers. And is being confronted by a 16-year-old daughter. Yes, the rest of the family or the mother in particular seems to be going along with this quietly, and she's not having that. She's like, let's be honest about White. You've been let go.

Her first line is wait, because everybody's packing up, moving on, pretending it doesn't happen. We're going to acknowledge this. reality of this. So not only is the father had many, many extramarital affairs and the family's in flux because of it. And as he points out, all three women sent letters of support. Yes, yes. He said that's one valid perspective. So he has to now take a job in another state. And she's in her junior year of high school. And so she decides to say with her aunt, who is Jamie Lee Curtis. Yes. And it's a little messier than that because her mother, who still loves him despite all, knows that her daughter and him will never get along

and it will always be that kind of chaos and still loves the guy so sort of urges so that Emma's character is abandoned and made to feel abandoning almost. It's weird. And you feel very much the mom's shame at sticking with the dad. She knows the daughter is in great judgment.

Correct, and he'll do it again. Yeah, I get it. Which is heartbreaking because she's already taking it on the chin from the husband and now the daughter's disappointed in her. And then while they're gone, the mom dies unexpectedly. So I'm just going to throw out there from what we've learned about you. There's a lot of stuff here that sounds vaguely familiar to your childhood.

We've got a questionable father in the mix, and we've got a mom who dies prematurely. Are you aware of that when you're writing out? I called him Eddie, my father's name. Okay, so yes. So you're aware. I'm blushing now. So many Hollywood pictures end with forgiveness being the answer. And if forgiveness is always the answer,

is meaningless. Something has to be unforgivable. There's got to be an unforgivable forgiveness to mean anything. Oh, that's a good point. And it's really the question. It needs to be relative to something. Yeah. And I'm sort of reactionary to every movie ending with forgive you.

And that's the answer in life. Yeah. Especially since I don't know that I forgive. My father did unforgivable things. Yeah. Unforgivable has to exist. It's also interesting. We could get very philosophical here. It's like there is some risk of healing.

all things from the childhood because they are the fodder for creativity. Like, if you had had some really dreamy, peaceful resolution with your father in the past, this movie doesn't exist. Absolutely. And I had ants that were very giving to me. And there's an aunt in this picture played by Jamie Lee. And Jamie Lee, her humanity to just be around. And I think she kicks it out of the park.

Yeah. In some weird way, she's the emotional hub of the movie. She's the most dependable source for Elis. to check in, get a reality check. Two women who've been to everything together who love the ass off each other. And as Ella then is kind of a vunderkin herself, she finds herself as the deputy governor

or whatever that role's called. Lieutenant Governor, yeah. Lieutenant Governor under, again, ding, ding, Ding, Albert Brooks, no relation to you. Einstein. Because you're Irish and he's Jewish. Easy mistake. He's the governor.

He steps down with 18 months left of his term to go join the cabinet in the White House. So now she finds herself as a 29-year-old governor. 34, or real age was that. Oh, okay, sorry, sorry. But still, she's checking in with her aunt regularly, whether there's a scandal brewing about her. Her aunt who raised her, yeah.

She's kind of her reality check. I think it was true in my family that the significant love in a woman's life can be another woman family member. That's the key to our journey. But the choice is also armor. That's sort of the great thing. It's a great thing about the gender. So the dad resurfaces, and he's just a love and sex addict.

That's very obvious. And he now has a new girlfriend. The new girlfriend's urging him to make amends, but it's not really an amends. Until you get things right with your kids, I'm not going to be you're a woman. Yes. I guess my question is since there's so much similarity, why do a female protagonist and not a male protagonist? Like, it's almost your story, but you chose to tell it through the lens of a female. protagonist. Wow, that never occurred to me. I did it wrong. No, I just, I think there's something

really quite interesting there that you're kind of telling your story, but you would rather have a woman portray your role in some sense. I have never thought about it that way. I plan to have this surgically removed from my head after I mean. Maybe it was a protective thing. Like, if it's exactly you. That's a little harder to write and to sit with. So maybe there's like a little bit of a distance when you're writing for female care. Yeah, that. God bless you. I'll make another argument, which is your story in 1958 when you turn 18, having had really no dad present and a mother that was working on stop, you were starting with a real deficit that I don't think we could extend to any man in 2025 as a male lead.

I don't know that it would represent really what you were starting out with, how much the odds were stacked against you and your own personal story in 1968. That would ring untrue today. And I think there were parts that were consciously based on times of my life, and I think there must be stuff that was unconsciously based on that, too. Having done the Mary Tyler Moore show and having explored this topic now for 55 years,

how is Ella different and similar? The topics change, women change. That's always the question. It's always what makes a contemporary female heroine. And this is a no-nonsense. She's a public servant we pray for. She's just really genuine. You know, principled and has integrity.

She gets accidentally loaded for the first time in her life in the movie. And it's weed, not like you've seen weed before. Weed where you love weed. Weed where, oh, this is the real me. I got to remember what I'm saying now. Oh, God, this is it. This is it. And what comes out of her is, I can make people's lives better.

That's her dirty secret, you know, that she doesn't even get out of her mouth until she does that monologue great. I think she kills the monologue. And then there's obviously the reoccurring issue that women still deal with, which is like she kind of inadvertently does end up marrying kind of a version of her dad. That's what everybody says. Unintended, but everybody says that. Yeah, and maybe common consent to mankind or something. Yeah, so explain the husband that she's kind of just woken up. Hardest thing in the script, because through some versions, what is she doing with him?

Right. He's based on this, that it was one of the things that a woman can consider about a guy is what impact you'll have on our life, sort of in a traditional sense. He's a successful guy. It's attractive that this man is going to take me places I've never heard of. This is the reverse. Right. She's that. He noticed it in high school.

And I don't know if it's bad to fall in love with that, but you're going to play. and you don't even know it. You're going on a journey and I'd be stuck here. I love you. Yeah. Persistence, persistence, persistence. Oh, interesting. So, yeah, he is enamored with the obviousness that she is going to be going places.

He's ambitious, but she's not in the wrong way. He likes that she's governor. He likes the accoutment and stuff like that. He wants to be on TV with her. He wants the title. Yeah, yeah. Like he's using her. Even if he doesn't know he is.

What's been sort of a thing traditionally. my way out. Oh, this guy takes me to a whole new place. Prince Charming takes me to a new life. Yes, if it's reversed, we don't say she's using him, I guess is the thing. The trope you've seen a million times in movies is like the wife of a man and she's quite ambitious and helps him achieve his goals. But it's really unique and interesting and a bit icky when you see the reverse of it. Right. Like, why should it be? Why should it be? But it's, I don't like it. That is a very contemporary woman right now. There's a lot of that going on right now. It's hard. They write their marriage vows, and his is, except for you and me, baby, everything's a joke. And that's an outlook, you know.

Yeah. Well, it's delightful. I love Camel, too. Camel Nogionis is one of my all-time favorites. Yeah, the big six. It's like the good guys cast. It's like everyone that's in is sincerely a good guy. Oh, I have one more question.

Yeah. When's the first time you cried? You told us the second time. My mother's death? I guess we could have assumed that. I made an ass of you and me. You did. He said second.

I was like, okay, I guessing 22 was the first time. And how much time in between was those two? A long time. A long time. I can tell you. A long time. I have it. 83, 22, 66 to 83. So that's a long time.

It's a big gap. I think I had about a similar gap. I cheer up easily now. You have a bunch of girls, right? I have two daughters and two sons. Do you cry as much for the sons or the girls? I have two girls. I just know I cry nonstop.

And I'm assuming it's happily because they're girls. My last cry was with my granddaughter on the phone. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because something wonderful had happened to her and she didn't see it coming. It was a happy cry. Yeah, yeah. My kids are embarrassed for me, I think.

I mean, I'm just letting it rip all the time. Wow. Yeah, men don't bring Kleenex with them, yes. No, I never see it coming. The boy, it's getting more and more regular. It's nice, though, isn't it? It feels like you're just. genuine yeah it feels nice by the way i think it was one of your podcast where you were talking about

men's groups and i can't tell you what it brought back to me and how much i miss it when i was part of a group in your case it was a but just palpably missed it so much yeah hearing you talk about it yeah i was there last night with my idol who just got 23 years he also had a 76 birthday and i was sitting with them and i was like oh my god man, I have had 23 years of getting to see someone who has exactly what I want and is exactly who I want to be. And I've got to just ape them. And what an insane gift? How the hell do you find that without something like that?

It resonated. Thank you. Well, man, this is a real honor, Jim. Honestly, I mean, you guys are great. Thank you. I appreciate it. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, just the work so special in Lasting, you did a bang-em-up job.

And you'll call me. tell me what Simpsons is worth, right? Between us and I won't tell anyone. Get me counting. All right, thank you so much, Jim. Pleasure. Hi there. This is Hermium.

If you like that, you're going to love the fact check with Ms. Monica. Anyway, I want his wine. His wine and his cake. His wine and his cake that he doesn't eat or drink. I would love dating him. I would eat all his stuff and drink all his stuff. I love that you want to fuck him.

That's so exciting. Well, it's curious. I'm curious. Let's bring everyone up to speed. We're talking about Tom Cruise. And you did say. He's not going to come on if we do this. If he knows you want to fuck him, he'll be here in two seconds.

What are you talking about? You don't understand one thing about how the world works. It's crazy. The eight years of me trying to explain to you how the world works in you. And you just won't pick it up. I'm just, I have some curiosity. You want to just want to fuck him. I want to know what he's like.

What it feels like to fuck him? Get into it. Let's hear what this is. about okay i'm like what are you like in an intimate setting because you're so he's so intense and everything has to be so um regimented yeah there's probably no room for improv unless that's the space that he improvised so that's my curiosity yes that's what i'm saying is like he is a perfectionist at all things he just delivers and there's no reason to think he want to just blow your mind in the sack also if you watch those early tom cruise movies he is so playful with his eyes he has total

command of his charm with his eyes yeah he does if he locked into your eyes i think he could give you a real experience i'm just you know your curiosity's piqued my curiosity's piqued but it's just interesting because you don't randomly that's not what you offer randomly like we have a cute young baseball player you thought was hot and oh on the screen we had Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we haven't had him as a guest. When I threw out the notion, you're like, he's too young. I'm like, yeah, but just for a night, like a roll-around fun picture over. And you were like, no. And then yesterday you shocked me because you're coming out of the studio and you're talking to a guest and you basically said, like, I would fuck Tom Cruise.

And I was like, this is interesting. Okay. Do you agree that it's inconsistent? I agree, but it's not, to me, it makes total sense. Yeah, and that's, and I'm hoping you can convey that to me. me okay the hot baseball player yeah i'm intimidated by now see this is weird this is gonna seem disrespectful yeah or cocky or something and i don't mean that to be the case yeah but that hot young baseball player yeah i think i would feel like oh my gosh yeah i hope i'm hot enough yeah i hope i'm hot enough okay and if tom and i are getting intimate yeah we're rolling around Yeah, I'll roll around. You think he's going to be pretty grateful for what's going on?

No, because I know he has, he has access to everyone and has dated insanely hot people. Yeah. But for some reason. Part of it sees older? Maybe. You know us older people will be grateful for anything, right? Is that part of what's going on? I hate to say it might have to do with age, but I think it does.

That's fair. Yeah. And guess what? You're kind of right. I heard this said to me a long, long time ago, and it didn't make sense because I was younger at the time, but I did a movie, a student movie 24 years ago at Mentor, Ohio, and one of the cast members was a much older dude who had been a lawyer and quit being a lawyer to do stand-up, and I was in this movie. I loved him. He was so interesting and funny. Yeah. But he was, again, he was older. He was at least 10 years older than me.

And I remember him saying, like, there's no unattractive girls in their 20s. Like, I knew when I was in my 20s, who was hot and who's not. Right. And they're all just very attractive to me now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I heard that and I was like, man, I don't buy that. Like, you can still clearly see. And then now that I'm older, I'm like, yeah, everyone just is attractive.

Like, youthfulness is attractive. Youthfulness, yeah. And you don't, you're not like picking apart these. Yeah. When everyone was youthful in your pool. I know. You got a little spoiled and you'd fine pick about eyebrows or this or that. And that's not what you think at 50.

Right. And I am not in my 20s, but I still feel confident in my body that it looks youthful. He would be, he would be very happy. I think he would be happy to see it. Yeah, I'm sure he would. Now, what if you laid on your back? Okay. Legs spread.

Okay. And he dropped down like Mission Impossible and entered you. Wouldn't that be so exciting? Oh my God. And then he went, wait. up. And he's like 12 feet in the air. So he's on like a harness? Yeah, but he's got total control of it. So when he drops, he can land right in you. You're like, whoa! And then you want more because he's gone for a while. You're like, Tom, you're up there way too long. Oh my God. This is the kind

of fears. Like I, that's embarrassed. That's so embarrassed. He puts pads, like stunt pads all around the room before you guys get started. And Monica, you play here. You cannot leave this area. You'll get hurt. Yeah. I'm going to be doing all this. with the pyrotechnics and the swords yeah okay okay i'm having a realization what so i i am attracted and i have always been attracted to older men okay older than me like at at whatever stage i'm at a fair amount older than me yes and now i'm wondering if it is because that's that's a that's a self-protection i would have never suggested it but i i i do think that in the same way i have my suspicions and no one likes this. This is too taboo to say. Okay. What? I have my suspicions about

guys who date only one specific thing. Like they only, I only date Asian girls or they date really young girls. Yeah, this just came up on. I think they have some sexual insecurities that they think either a young person won't know the difference of or they're playing on some dumb stereotype. People do have types. Yeah. And is it okay and why? Why do they have types? But you often say it's okay to have types.

I do think it's okay to have types if it's not covering up an insecurity of yours. But how do we? But I guess who cares if it's covering up an insecurity? Yeah. Like what's the difference? Everything's related to our fears and insecurities and our strengths. Well, I think if you are what I would say, kind of using someone to deal with your insecurities. I just think that's not fair. I think you should deal with your insecurities.

Yeah. And that someone shouldn't be the unwitting participant in this weird thing. That's something deeper is going on that we're not acknowledging. Right. But isn't that everyone? I don't think so. I mean, I see a difference between using someone. It's not using on purpose, though. It's subconscious. So to me, it's the same. Well, they're conscious, though. Well, that's bad. Yeah. Like, I only want to be with a virgin because I I'm so terrible and bet. Like that's, I don't like that. Yeah, that's gross. That's not good.

No, I agree. But if it's just a subconscious attraction, it's not like I'm picking this because of this. It's like, oh, I'm attracted to that. Yeah. And then you dig deep and like, oh, I'm attracted that because of this. But that's who you're attracted to. Yeah. What is that bad?

Well, that's interesting. That then bleeds into a more complex scenario, which is like, what if a, so. these dudes who really desire, um, subservient women. Like, you can make the argument, okay, well, there are subservient women. And that's their, that's what they've chosen as their role. And there's a guy who wants that and they're together and they're happy. Yeah. You've made that.

You've said that's okay. I mean, I just, for me personally, it's terrible. For you personally, but you're, we're talking about general. Like, is it okay? And I think, I kind of think, yes. Yeah. Like, if everyone is fine with it, with the arrangement. Yeah, yeah.

I just think it's a shitty personality type, someone who's like, I don't want to compromise or be questioned. I want to do whatever I want to do and I need a partner and that'll just shut the fuck up and go along with it. I just hate that personality. Yeah. Right? Of course.

I mean, yeah. Yeah. We do. So this just came up on nobody's listening, right? Elizabeth and Andy's show. This is funny that they just talked about this because I guess Andy was kind of saying like, what if, because I guess they're watching British Bake Off and someone maybe has alopecia on that show.

Okay. And then Andy was like, what if you were dating someone who had alopecia and then you found out their last three girlfriends had alopecia? Is that okay? Like, is it okay to be attracted to that? Yeah, yeah. I think that's great. I think it's fine.

That's great. Okay. But. It's, to me, in theory, it's like, that's fine. That's what you find physically attractive. When I put myself in the position of like, okay, so if I find out that my boyfriend, Tom. Yeah. No, I'm kidding.

If I find out that my boyfriend's last three girlfriends, in fact, this kind of happened to me on a date. Okay. Last three girlfriends were Indian. Yeah. I don't like that. And so I understand in theory, like, oh, that is an aesthetic you find attractive. Yeah. If anything, you should feel.

Don't tell me how I should feel. This is how you should feel. And you're wrong if you don't feel this way. It should quiet any voice in your head that you have. Is he really attracted to me? Like, it would confirm, no, I'm exactly what he's attracted to. No, but it's like you're attracted to. a thing that I happen to be.

You're not attracted to me. That is not good. Okay, see, yes, and this is great, because this is how these always go, which is you reduce whatever the one element that they're attracted to you about is being the total reason. So it's like your issue with a fan wanting,

initially being interested in you because they're a fan, great, but your personality has to then take over. And yes, you may, this gentleman may love your color of brown skin and find it to be the most aesthetically pleasing. And so that opened the door. But you have to, he has to like you for you. You can't like someone for the color of their skin. That's only going to last for a few weeks. Well, for some people, that's not true.

They just like a physical aesthetic and then they're like, it's their kink. But I don't, I have never been able to be with somebody simply because. how they look physically. I know you, but we're not talking about you specifically. We're talking about people who have kinks and are like, you know, I have a Indian woman kink. And so I'm on the prowl for one, your one. Yeah, and I'm attracted to a lot of Indian women, but then I need to talk to them and find out do we like the same movies and have we of sense of humor. And then after a while then it's like, I'm sick of her.

So I'm on the next Indian woman. Like that's maybe the fear. Yeah, I think that's the fear, but I just don't think I'm terribly unique. Everyone I know who's with a partner, they like the person, their personality. They did for a while. I guess I'm saying there are definitely people who are with people, not for their personalities. Sure, but what I'm saying is there are no, there's no pair of boobs that are so perfect that those pair of boobs are going to get you through a relationship.

You might come for the boobs, but they're going to wear out. People can't stay with someone because they like someone's boobs. There has to be a lot more going on than just I like her boobs. I mean, I hope that's true, but I don't know if I believe that for certain men. Excluding narcissists who like, you're literally just a bit of branding for their identity. Yes. Sure. I think everyone in their life's a pawn that doesn't really, they just validate them in whatever category in that moment they need them to.

Exactly. But excluding those people, talking about people in relationships that want to. to call you and talk to you on the phone yeah and go out to dinner with you and eat and go to movies yeah they have to like you yeah and i hope and i think sometimes you reduce why someone likes you to like a singular thing and then evaluate that one single thing when i think it's like hundreds of data input that make us like each other yeah that's i i that's right and it'd be okay if someone came for one reason and stayed for another i i know i know i like a plenty of girls have been with me, I'm sure, because, like, they like tall guys.

Yeah, everyone likes tall guys. Well, I don't know if that's true. Yeah, they do. I mean, people like short guys, too, but people also, everyone likes tall guys. And maybe everyone likes tall guys, but for some people, they have to be with a tall guy. I've met girls that are like, I've never had a boyfriend under six, too. Like, that's what they love. They have to have that.

Yeah. And so that's fine. You came, I got your attention because I was six two. you saw me across the room and like I fit the thing I know I don't know why to me it's different like that's kind of to me like saying like okay I like pretty I like pretty people like it's like that's like duh you know everyone likes tall guys everyone likes pretty faces like being Indian is not the same thing as that it's it's it's a niche it's very specific and it's like it's like I don't know.

You could also... It's like a fetish. I mean, it's not always. Like, I'm not saying, I'm not saying Indian people in relationships that person has a fetish. It's just if you see that it's a pattern. Yeah. That to me is strange. It would make me curious.

Yeah. Like, what is it that you like? Because it could be the culture. Right. And that... And you're not that. So I already understand. understand why you'd be like, if your thing is Indian chicks, I'm not that.

I'm not like, I think I feel very like, don't put me in a box like that. And you were trying to not be Indian a little bit. Right. But now, yeah, I think it would just get complicated with that person because I'm like, I already have enough complicated feelings around this. Yeah, I just, you're not going to get the culture. If you're coming to me for like the Indian experience, you're not going to get it. But I don't know the stereotype.

That's what I'm, that's why I'm more. I'm more concerned for guys their only date young age. I just don't, I know that one, because it has a lot of built-in stereotypes. There aren't those built-in stereotypes about Indian women. It's not that there's this subservient stereotype. It's not that there's a stereotype that the men have small penises. There's none of that weird psychological baggage. Can I see why that would be your fetish as opposed to other groups?

I don't know. What do you think of a girl, a white girl who only, dates black guys um i think that's in i also think that's interesting yeah um i would want to know why if i was the man i would also want to know why right there's because again there's there's three like likely explanations well there's and they're all interesting explanation one is just aesthetically that's your pick yeah gorgeous a that's your aesthetic B You're trying to rebel against your dad. Oh, see, this gets so, this is so complicated, so fast.

I know, but I think these are likely buckets that one would have to consider. Oh. Or you two are playing up on a stereotype and you're a size queen. These are like the three things I'm thinking. No, it could also be like, I imagine that you have a view of the world that I find interesting or different. Great, that's a fourth one. I mean, to me, that is what would be attractive. That you're attracted to the culture.

No, not the culture. The, like... Different set of glasses. Different set of glasses. That this person is seeing the world in a way that I can't access without them. Yeah, and I think that's a beautiful thing to mix that, to understand other people. Yeah. That's the only way to do it.

I like that one. But yeah, those are four really likely, I think, of some. you could make. I think I am attracted to that. I think I'm attracted to things that are quite different than me. Novel and unique. I like it. It's fascinating. It is fascinating. It's a juicy. It is fascinating. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. Oh, yeah. It was very brief, but I just love it. I love Austin, Texas.

Yeah. And you got two steaks. I went down to Lambert's and got a pair of rib eyes, ribbies. Fuck, Monty. So good. They were, they were really delivered. They're like candied. They're so candied.

There's so much stuff in them. I took a picture. I may have sent it to you. It's just oozing with all these different color fats and juices. Yeah, sweet stuff and, oh, fuck. What a rib eye. Really good. Yeah.

Did that. Uh-huh. Shot all day. Yeah. Long, 12-hour day. I've already said it 12 times. I haven't worked 12 hours in a long time. And I had a blast on set.

Met a lot of fun actors. Some I had seen in things and never met. That was fun. I forgot about that. Yeah. Getting to bump into people that you've seen and like and things. Mm-hmm. And then Saturday, I wasn't in the mood.

Okay. But it is my commitment. I had to go to Barton Springs before I got an airplane. So I checked out of, it was a chilly day. Oh. I checked out of my hotel room and I went and I put my swimsuit on in the car and I did some treading of water and I felt like I had worshipped at my church. I felt like, you know, elevated, like you don't want to go to church.

But when you leave, you're like, good, I went to church. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt. That's great. I'm glad you had a good time. I did. Um, one more thing before we go, I tried multiple times to get in to a new diner. Okay. It's called Max and Helens.

I shouldn't even say it. Yeah. But I am. I said it. You said it. I, Kristen, Anna, and I was like, let's do lunch at the new diner. So naive. Check this place out.

Everyone's saying it's great. Yeah. They did some, like, they did a bunch of friends and family previews. So I had already been seeing all these picks. pictures. People were saying it's so good. It's amazing. Life changing. Life changing. And I was like, hell yeah. So on Friday, I told Kristen and Anna, let's do lunch. Let's go to the new diner. Great. What time should we go? 12, 1230, 1245. Great. Great. Sky's the limit. Get there. Three hour wait. Three hour. I was, I knew something was wrong as soon as I started to walk up.

Because a guy I know someone who works at the row. Oh, wow. Shout out Max. Oh, God. Max and Max and Helen, so this is confusing. Yeah, yeah. I saw him there and we were chatting and he said, oh my God. He was like, you know, I came.

I put my name down at 10 and went home and now I'm back. And I was like, oh. And he was like, have you put your name down? And I was like, no. Oh, that was red flag, you know. Do you send Kristen up front to see if they would give her? She wasn't there yet. Oh, okay.

But I, of course, thought it. Yeah, we got to get her up front. Yeah. See if they can make some moves. And I went up there and I did use her name. Gray? It did not matter. Didn't they didn't even bat an eyelash?

Didn't do a thing. Yeah, good for them. So, basically there were like three hours and just come back in three hours. And I was like, oh, my gosh. No. Yeah, exactly. So we pivoted. Yeah.

And then new plan, right? New plan on Sunday, Jess has therapy over right in that neighborhood. So new plan before therapy, Jess is going to put our name in. And then we'll come three hours later. Smart. He texts me at like 11 and he said, no go. It's seven hours. Guys.

That's not even real I know So you can't even make that prediction It isn't real They basically just said like No more Don't go Don't come here

They did We're closed Basically What they closed But we can't We got to close No yeah So people get in line

I guess it opens at 8 People get in line at 7 And they kind of get like Is there two tables inside this place? I don't know But they go in Like whoever's there first Obviously goes in

And then they're like Come back in a half or come back in and I mean, they're going to have to figure out a better system than this. Can they do the phone text you? I know. I was like, do you text? And they basically said no. Wow.

How are you doing this? Even like small towns in America have this system. You think L.A. in the most popular restaurant. Because they also are open. I do think until like late, not late, but like later. Accommodating all the people put their name in at 4 p.m. Well, no, but you can't even put your name. That's what I'm confused about.

Yeah. So I don't know. But I almost unfollow them on Instagram because they were teasing. It was such a tease. I saw this turkey with gravy and a pie. And I was like, oh, I want that. Yeah. So I haven't been in yet.

And it's probably eaten yet pretty good. It's eating. It's getting to me. Yeah. If I saw the first time three, I would never think of the place again. I know. I know. I'm never going to go there.

I know. Until they get shitty and people stop going to go try it. I was. I've already been thinking like, God, when? Like eight months from now. How will it die down? Like when? Maybe Tom Cruise will take you there.

I don't even think Tom could cut the line. Don't say that. He would come right through the ceiling. He wouldn't fucking put his name in. Ethan Hahn will eat when he wants to eat. He can break into the Louvre and stuff. He can definitely eat at this restaurant whenever he wants. Oh, my God.

It looks so good. What if he want to pick you up on a motorcycle? You got to do it. Do you think I'm safe doing that? Yeah, he's pretty good. Really? Mm-hmm. Okay.

then sure you should get a leather jacket god this is great no i'm not gonna be a hot night i'm not gonna change my personality why not have some fun i have fun okay i he he like he'll like me of course he will he doesn't need a meeting a leather jacket also it's fun to to try out fun personas and go along and have different experiences than you've previously have so maybe you you have a cool motorist motorcycle jacket, you hop on back, like you're always on back. And you just, you buy into the whole thing. Yeah. Doesn't sound fun to you.

Not the motorcycle jacket. You're really afraid to lose yourself or something. I'm not afraid. Like if you act differently, you'll, or you'll forget who you are. No, I think it looks stupid. Oh, I think it looks adventurous. I think if you are doing something that's inauthentic to you, I think it's very clear. But Monica, how do you know something's authentic to you if you haven't tried it?

That's unknowable until you try it. Okay. You sound like a cult leader. Let's get a motorcycle jacket. Okay. For this date, with Tom Cruise to Max and Emma's. No, Max and Helens. I'll probably wear the row.

Okay. And not great motorcycle gear, I don't think. A lot of silks and thin. Like, why do Halloween? You know, why even do it? No one's any of the things that they get to pretend they are that day, but it's quite fun. Yeah, but we've already discussed me walking from the car to the house. It's like, I hate this.

Yeah. I like it. Yeah. Oh, I'm this other creature now. People are seeing, but you get so used to how everyone sees you. The reaction is standard. You know what it's like to be. you moving through the world.

But all of a sudden, you're wearing, like, six-inch platform boots and a super-tall Mohawk and blah, blah, you get to try on for that day. Oh, look how people are looking at me. This is so interesting. Yeah, I mean, that's what's fun about acting is putting on personas and personalities and trying and doing that. That's fun. Yeah.

But it could be in real life, too. In my life, I feel like that's. You feel like a poser. Yeah, I do. I understood and I think that's a common hurdle for people but what's the difference between someone who's opposed her and they're not someone just they were just like I don't I'm I'm not I'm gonna do this like no one's born authentically punk rock or not punk rock or this or that you're but you're drawn you're drawn to it you're like I like this aesthetic I this makes me feel but I don't have that so I would just be doing it trying to work from the outside in to feel to feel you're I feel... Unique? That would be the goal.

But I feel unique. No, no. There's unique as a person. Yes, you're a unique person. Yeah. And then there's your day-to-day life. If you could have a very unique day. Oh, I see.

That's what I'm saying. Like... Yeah. I... You just want me to dress the part. I love unique, feeling unique. Having a unique experience. Yeah.

Like, I don't like wearing a tuxedo. Yeah. I hate it. I know. I know. That's not for me. But I like that I wear a tuxer. tuxedo sometimes and go to these award shows and i get to experience the whole thing do you because

you're always like you hate it you hate that i'm not looking forward to it i don't like the inconvenience of having to have a suit having to have it tailored having to have hair makeup like all that stuff i'm not looking forward to but being at the event dressed in the appropriate gear that you're supposed to be in looking the part and pretending you're in a highfaluting scenario i find fun oh yeah this isn't my normal i don't wear tuxes out to fancy black tie things yeah so what i'm doing i'm like oh yeah this is out of the ordinary and unique and i appreciate it for that okay yeah i feel that that's maybe new for you oh because i feel like you used to be very attached to your authenticity and i think i'm still very attached to my authenticity for sure yeah

I but I've learned to incorporate like oh yeah that's authentically me I'm someone who has to do that yeah yeah that's why that's a little different I don't think me putting on a leather jacket and shaving my side that's not authentically me I think riding on a motorcycle could be is I've done that okay but but putting on like a character he's probably going to pick you up in a Porsche I think we get in the restaurant then? He'll figure that out. Okay. Yeah, all right. All right. Let's do facts. Let's do some facts.

Is this the vintage item you were talking about? Yes, I got this vintage. How old is it? Do you know? I don't know. Circa, 80s, 90s? I feel like it looks 80s. This is my new shirt from my tour that I went to.

Sabrina Carpenter. Oh, cute. Yeah, it says man's best friend. Yeah, it does. Because that's the name of the album. The new album. Yeah. Didn't hear any of those tracks because it's the short and sweet tour, but.

Oh, she didn't give you any? I don't think so. I'm finally relating to Swifties. Okay. Because I have found myself, all I'm listening to a short and sweet, okay, all day long, every day. I'm starting to really be an armchair detective for what boys. she's talking about. I really get it now. Are you going to vocally apologize? No, I'm not going to apologize because I'll own that it's bad of me too. So I'm not going to say, you know.

But you need to apologize to Taylor because you think it's weird that she, you don't love that she does that, but now you're a fan of Sabrina who does that. Yes. And I'm still not a fan of it, but I like it. It feels like we're really parsing out deeds. No. Like, if I start stealing tomorrow. Please don't. If I start stealing tomorrow, I'll say, oh, I'm stealing. That doesn't mean I think stealing's right. It doesn't mean I need to go back and say, like, everyone who I said stole was wrong.

No, I'm just, what I'm saying is I'm engaged in that juicy thing. Got it. And it's fun. I get it. It's still not great. It's still not good. But I do have theories. Oh, really?

Yes. I mean, some, it's obvious. It's, we all know all right. Do you know these ones? You already know about Sabrina's? Yeah. You know so much. Everyone knows.

No, no, I don't think everyone knows. I had to just go look it up. I know, but. But guess what my hunch was confirmed by People magazine. I know. Ew. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But also, I don't want you to be offended by this. I love you deeply. Yeah. But you're behind the times.

Yes, of course. So everyone does know. Okay. Then who is. I don't want to. say it. I don't want to participate in the thing. Right? I don't want to talk about that. Don't you do it with Taylor songs? Well, do I? Yeah, you go like, oh, that song's about SCX. Charlie. Charlie X. Oh, Charlie. What is it? Charlie S.C. X. Oh, my God. Come on now. Help me out. You know what I'm

Charlie X. C. X. I didn't at first. I thought you were spelling out sex and I didn't understand it. Isn't that what her name spells up? No, X. C. X. X. Oh, there's no E. Charlie X. C.S. C. C. Even Barack Obama had Charlie X CX on his, like, top 10, like, four years ago. But that's no shocker.

Barry's always ahead of the curve than I am. I know. I'm always looking at his book list of the year and going like, oh, I should read some of those. It's not like... Yeah. Okay, so I was listening, and one was about, like, having read every self-help book and doing a mushroom trip. And I'm like, this sounds like... This sounds like Sean Mandas.

Oh, no. I don't want to. Yeah. Yeah. We can't do this. Wait, why? I don't know. I don't.

It doesn't feel right. It doesn't? He's a friend of the pot. I know. There's nothing. I'm not saying he's a bad boy. I'm just saying I think I figured out what the song's about. And I was so excited.

And I understand the detective work people feel like they're doing is very gratifying. So then I searched. Yeah. Well, first I asked chat. Oh, God. Who are the songs about? Sure. Chat's very ethical.

Chat won't tell them. chat is not very ethical mine is very ethical it wouldn't tell me okay it just would say oh here's the themes i don't think it must be liable it lied to me liable not lie i think it lies yeah it's i don't know anyway whatever the case it did take me to a link where this people magazine article but they were they were pretty much trying to credit every lyric on the album to sean mendez which there's been other lovers. I looked up her lovers. There's been a handful.

Well, we know some of them are about. Barry Coogan is one. Yeah. Okay. I don't want to do this. This feels unethical to be for some reason. I don't know why. Interesting.

But most of them are about Barry Keogh. So let's not do it. But can we explore why it feels unethical? Yeah. We also just did Lily James and. Lily out. But that's so explicit. And David.

That's my point. Like, I kind of like that Taylor. and Sabrina and other artists. I need a nickname for, maybe Sabrina. Oh, you know, and we had Joey King on some years ago, and she is very good friends with Sabrina Carpenter, and she said that on her ride over, I'll never forget this. She said on her ride, maybe she was lying, like chat.

Yeah. On her ride over, she was talking to Sabrina, and I think she called her Sabrina's or Sabrina or something. I'm like I'm doing. Yeah, and said, I'm going on armchair expert, and she said, I love that show. Oh, my God. We're getting sidetrack.

Yeah. So you don't like to theorize on who these songs are. No, I do. I mean, I already, again, I already know. We all know. You already knew Sean Mendez? People talk about this. It's also obvious because when you know someone's dating someone publicly.

Yeah. Then they break up and then these songs come out. It's like, duh. Yeah, it is interesting, though, because like, I think about this a lot. Mm-hmm. This is what brought Truman Capote down. Okay.

Is that he used everyone in his life as archetypes for his books. And then it was very, very thinly veiled. Yeah. To the point where people felt quite betrayed and violated by him. I assume so, yeah. And he, people did not want to hang out with him at the end. And all he wanted was to be a socialite, you know? Yeah.

But when I think about, like, doing an ensemble show as a writer, I have these incredible archetypes in my life. Yeah. And so I would want to use key essence of them. But then I need to build on and deviate from that because I've established their engine. Now everything else is arbitrary. But I can see if you're on the outside, you're like, you would be inclined to think everything that came after the archetype was actually fact or reporting. But it's not.

Yeah. Anyways, Sabrina Carpenter. knows please, please, please is definitely about Barry Keogan. Oh, really? See, you're telling me something. Yeah. Please, please, please. Which is my favorite song.

Okay, let me look because all I do is listen to this album and I should know exactly what it is. It's you're saying, please, please, please. Oh, that's the second song on the track. Oh. Don't embarrass me, motherfucker. Yeah. Well, it can't be about him if he's in the video. It was.

She would have written the song long before a video gets made. And don't we think the timeline as they met on this video? No, no, no. They were together. For a hundred years. They were together before the video. Okay. Okay.

I'm going to, I need to do a little more research on that. I don't know how he would be in the video that's. I mean, it's also like, it's not, this one is just like this is an, you're kind of an embarrassment, but I like you. And you're going to break my heart, but I like you. Like, it's not like you already. Did it. Okay.

You know? Okay. Please, please. She's pleading. Anyway. That's not my jam. I mean, I like that song. Every song on the album's great.

Yeah. It's a great album. Monica. I know. Again, I know because this was like two summers ago. Well, hold on. I don't know if that's the right dates. I have the album right up on my phone.

I can look. I don't know about two summers. I think it was. I mean, she's on. tour right now. It was a 20-24 release. Yep, that's what I said. August 23rd. Summer's over. Summer's kind of over. No, please, please, please, please. And espresso had already come out. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's do some facts. People can't come here for current news. I guess that's, that's- Well, I got to imagine there's a lot dorks like me in the audience, though, that my, well, certainly, the whole world isn't

listen to the album. It's a very big album. It's not, it's not thriller. So I'm trying to push it to thriller numbers. Even the fact that that's like the reference, like it's, it's, that's the biggest album of all time. Okay. But it's huge. It's a huge out. Yeah.

Huge. Huge. No, it's a, it's a great success. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it could be bigger. And a lot, not everyone is already, not everyone's sick of it yet, Monica. Some people are just going.

I'm not sick of it. People are, some people are going, wow. I've heard of her, but I didn't know. I can't. Yeah. But my song, I just want to. recommend my song. Okay. You already did, but let's do it again. Let's do it every day. It's your favorite song. You love it. You do. I love it more than anything. Well, no, you don't love it more than

anything. That's a crazy thing to say. I love it more than air. Okay. Okay. My favorite song is called Don't Smile. Yeah. I didn't remember. I didn't remember. I didn't really have to look it up, but I did look it up because I know it's don't smile because it happened, cry because it's over. I love that line because it's a blipy.

I felt very validated because I sent the song to a very, very accomplished songwriter and producer. And I said, do you like this song? I can't stop listening to it. And he wrote back immediately, oh my God, that's my favorite song on that album, exclamation point. And I felt

so validated. That's great. Yeah, an expert said it was the best song in the album. His favorite, not the best. His favorite would be the best. Oh, he's a musical genius. We can't do this. He might say the best is this, but that's my favorite. He can't, no way, whatever song he likes the most, he is the one he'd say is best.

No, there are podcasts that I are my favorite that aren't the best. Okay. All right. I'm going to, listen, we're in the middle of a fact check and Monica's making me very angry right now because I said, I reached out to a very successful and brilliant songwriter to say that, what's my favorite song? Oh, don't smile. Don't smile.

And that this person responded, oh, that's my favorite on the album. And then Monica, exclamation point. And then Monica's suggesting that you didn't say it was the best. And I said, well, your favorite would definitely be the one you think is best. And she said, no, that's not true. You could think that another song's the best, but that your favorite is, don't smile. Who's right? Phineas.

Okay. Facts. Okay. Now I have someone to call for something important. Colin Jim Brooks. Almost. Hey, Ma'am. You're on air, because you didn't send it to me, so now you have to do it live.

Oh, okay. The shoe maniac? Yes. Come on down and check me out. I'm the shoe maniac, and I sell thousands of thousands of pair of women's all letters shoes. I sell them cheap folks. That's how I do it. That's why I sell more shoes than anybody downtown.

Now, if you like plastic shoes, keep on walking, because I hate plastic shoes. I can't stand plastic shoes. I sell nothing but all leather shoes. That's why I sell more shoes than anybody down town. Thank you, Eric. So good. Now, is your character specifically Cajun, or that's just a coincidence? Or did you go like, I'm going Cajun with this?

Yeah, well, you know, yeah, I guess I'm kind of talking like this, you know? Sure. Because I'm missing a front tooth. So I think it makes me, uh, that. I got a little bit of a list, a list. Yeah, but you always make him Cajun, and that's part of the cell. It works. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, a little bit like, yeah, yeah, a little more like flirtatious, outgoingish, you know. Rubber shoes. And we gave out, and we gave out free popcorn at the store, free popcorn, free drinks. You know, free popcorn, and then I'd have to pick out a lady, you know, from the crowd and tell her to come in. Would you always pick a lady that you thought looked hungry for popcorn or just the prettiest? What was, who did you invite? Yeah, I mean, you find somebody usually was a lady with some kids who looked like she was miserable out there in the sun and, you know, get her in for a cold drink and some free popcorn. The free popcorn was that, you know, that gets all kinds of people in a store.

Sure. Hungry. Yeah, and then they bring their kids and then they have to buy four pairs of shoes. That's a good hack. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and popcorn costs nothing to make. So, you know, sometimes I see these stores and they're just, you know, you've got to think of things outside of the box to get people in your store.

You can't just have a store and expect people to come in. You got to break through the clutter. Got to break through the crowd, man. You've got to break through the crowd and find some. There's always something. There's always something. All right, Eric, well, we love you. And I wanted the world to hear that.

I love you to death, you guys. Bye. Bye. Bye. So that came up because we talked about selling women's shoes. He had a fear of having to sell women's shoes for a living. Oh, sure. And our friend Eric, who we brought up in the episode, he sold women's shoes very well.

As a child. As a kid. Yeah, his dad's business. Yeah. And as you can hear, he was great at it. Definitely probably even cuter when it's coming out of a 10-year-old. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, he's got a speech memorized.

Okay. What was the first team? TV show to have a black lead character, sitcom. It was called Julia, 1968 to 71, and then Room to 22, which was his, which was 1969 to 74. And then the Cosby show. Uh, full of black leads. Okay dokey. Was Mary Tyler Moore show the first female lead that didn't depend on a man?

It says it, Honey West, was the first network TV series of a female lead who, The story was not dependent on a man, premiered in 1965, starred Anne Francis as a private detective. While earlier shows featured female leads, Honey West was specifically designed to center on a female character in a non-traditional role, a private eye. Okay. What show did Taxi follow MASH? He didn't say that. He just said a popular show.

Well, also, that's an interesting ding-ding-ding, ding, because those both have the most beautiful theme songs that don't match at all their kids. comedic genre. Well, okay, so it followed MASH from the 78 to 79 season and then followed happy days during 79 to 80. Which does not have a super beautiful jazz song. Doesn't it have Monday, Tuesday, Friday, happy days, Tuesday, Friday, happy day. The weekends go.

Yeah, catchy. These are the... I used to know all the lyrics. It's hard. That's a bad sign. Well, you had to push it aside to have Sabrina in there. I got to make room. There's a new queen in town.

How much money did The Simpsons generate? Oh, yeah, he wanted to tell us. Yeah. He says he didn't know. But it's estimated to be well over $14 billion. 14 billion. Yeah. Dude.

That's awesome. From jokes. I know. Cool. 14 billion. Yeah. Did the Mary Tyler Moore show win a Peabody? Yes, in 77.

So that's cool. It also won 29 Emmys. Mary Tyler Moore? I've never watched Mary Tyler Moore, have you? Yeah, because I used to watch when I was at my grandparents' house when I was little. They had a Nickelodeon block party summer. Uh-huh. And Monday through Friday, there was a show, and then they would just play that show all night.

And it was like, Bewitched was one night. I dream a genie was one night. Mary Tyler Moore show was one night. Some others. And they'd show a whole season in one night? Well, no. They just showed like some episodes. And then for the summer, they would do that.

Oh, that's fun. Yeah. So yeah, I watched it. And did you like it? Yeah. I need to watch it. Yeah. I'm sure it holds up.

TBD. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure it's still like, oh, wow, that's awesome. For the time. I just wonder if you'd go for the time. For the time. I just wonder if you'd go. for the time you'd have i think you might have to say for the time for the time yeah that's it that's

everything that's it for jim brooks jim brooks all right all right love you Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry.com slash survey.