Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - James McAvoy

Episode Date: October 12, 2026

James McAvoy (California Schemin’, Atonement, X-Men) is an award-winning actor and director. James joins the Armchair Expert to discuss running wild in Glasgow’s council estates, considering the priesthood to see the world, and landing his first film role after offering to make tea. James and Dax talk about the Wanted role Dax almost got, feeling out of his league opposite Keira Knightley, and making a film about Scottish rappers who fooled the industry by pretending to be American. James explains how childhood hardship sharpened his empathy, why kids need room to be bored, and why helping people doesn’t always mean fixing their problems.Start your 2 month free trial today: https://youtube.com/premium . Terms Apply. Cancel Anytime.Check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds: https://www.allstate.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert. I'm Dax Shepherd. I'm joined by Monica Padman. Hi, James McAvoy. I'm being official because his name's James, you know. James McAvoy is our guest today. And James feels official instead of Jim. I love the name James.

I used to say that if I had a daughter, I would name her James. Oh, that would be a lovely name for, yeah. James Padman. Do you think it sounds be bad? Well, I love James on its own, but then maybe she's a one. name person. I just don't know how well it pairs with Padman. James Padman. I mean... You call her JP?

I call her James Lilly Padman and then JLP. Oh, JPL is what I'm... Jet Laboratory propulsion. Okay, anyways, James McAvoy is an award-winning actor and a director. His credits include split, speak no evil, atonement, 4X men. Of course,

last king of Scotland for my money. God, did I love him in that? And he has made his directorial debut, It's in theaters now. It's called California Schemean, and it's based on the most impossibly true story of two Scottish kids, pretending they're American to break into rap in 2003. This is a lovely interview.

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I've healed so much. Much different today, right? What? Oh, he had a... Okay. Yeah, so yesterday we had a guest, and it was insane. They never asked what was wrong with my face. Because have you ever been to the dermatologist

and they have the machine they can zap things off you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I bought one. Oh, wow. And I've been going nuts getting rid of every dangerous mind. That's the dangerous, dude. This signs by. So yesterday it looked like I had been hit with Buckshot in the head.

Is it like freckles or moles? Skin tags, hyperplasia, anything raised I don't like. Anything you know when you're just feeling your skin, you're like, what the fuck is this? And especially I'm four years older than you, but at 51, it's like sprouting up everywhere. I'm like, what is happening to you? Yeah, no, I've got weird stuff all over it at 47s all the time. Yeah, well, we are a ship flowing through the ocean of life. You've got to scrape your hull sometimes.

I've got to something in my eye, which I'm like, oh, am I going to need to get that worked out? So maybe I'll use your machine before I go. Oh, no. I walk out blind. I for Kater 2000, you would be the first guest that I offered some kind of surgical services to. It's getting out of control. It's like he walks in and then it's just scabs.

Oh, me. Scabs. Scabs. But they heal quickly. So yesterday I was a mess. And today already, I'm kind of back to normal. I had that thing when I was a kid. We started recording it.

Oh, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a teenager. And you know that way when you don't really think about your appearance too much? I wasn't really up on my appearance. And then I think my aunt said to me, like, oh, you've got tons of blackheads on your nose. And I was like, I've got, what? And I was like, what's that? Yeah.

And they were like raised. They really needed to have something done about them. Sure. I thought, oh, I guess I better do something about that. So I went to town on them. And the next day, I looked like I'd been fucking attacked by a Rottweiler or something like that. Then that was the talk of the town and the school was going like, James Markovoy, he bossed his plukes, he bust these zits.

You're like, why is this news? Was it scabbed or you just look like Rudolph the Red Nose Rainer? It was pretty scabby. It was scabby. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I don't know whether to tell you this story now or when we get to it. I don't know. I've told a story on here about you about 35 times, which is why I'm so excited to finally meet you.

Oh, my God. Is it going to be bad? I'm going to start with it. Good story. I guess it would have been 2006 or seven. I get a meeting with this guy, Timor, Oh, yeah. This Russian director who's going to direct this movie wanted.

Yeah. And we have this incredible meeting. I'm at that point thinking, you know, there's no way I'm getting this movie. It's going to be a huge action movie. But I'd like to meet this guy. That meeting goes really, really well. But there's another actor that's already attached to it. So I'm like, that's a bummer, whatever.

Then randomly we get called. That actor fell out for scheduling is what I was told. He wants to meet again. Meet again. Then the studio calls, they want my quote. We're beginning that whole process. I'm like, oh, they call them. And they ask for my quote.

This is Plea Wesley. Yes. Oh, my gosh. And I'm like, I can't believe this is happening, right? And then at the 11th hour, they're like, oh, no, the actor is now available again. I go, who is this actor? And they go, James McAvoy. And I go, who the fuck is James McAvoy?

You're saying that, like, whatever. I'm so annoyed. Weeks later, I go to Arclight here, and I see the last King of Scotland. Oh, yeah. Was that right about that time? Oh, wow. Yes, you were probably getting that role right as that movie was about to come out. And so I'm watching this movie and I'm having the experience that I've only had a couple times.

I'm having the experience I had watching Ewan McGregor and Trainspotty. What film? Where I go, who is this fucking actor I'm watching? He's so, oh, no, you. When he was watching Last King of Scotland. I'm watching Last King of Scotland and I'm like, oh my God, this guy's a revelation. Who is this guy? And the whole time I'm watching, I'm like, I got to wait to the credits.

I'm going to like write his name down and watch everything that he's ever been in. And then it gets to the credits and they go, oh my God, that's James McAvoy. I wouldn't have hired 10 of me to play this guy. It was the most satisfying experience with finding that you didn't get something because of someone else. Because I was so blown away by that performance in Last King of Scotland. And then I've just been a huge fan ever since. Thanks, thanks so much, man. It's really kind of you see.

So I don't know we see that. That's mental. That is mental. So, shall I tell you the truth about what was actually going on? Yes, because I read other shit today that I was like, oh, that's not even what happened, I don't think. I think Timor wanted me to play the role and he thought it was me. And then the studio were like, this kid's not big enough. Was it like a $75 million movie?

Yeah, with Angelina Jolie. We need somebody more established and probably more experienced as well. And who's American for a start? Yeah, yeah. And so I think a camera tested about three. times for the role. I was never not available. Really? They were just going back and forth on whether they would let Timor have this guy that you liked.

And Timor was clearly into you as well, because I don't think he'd met you more than once if he wasn't. He's a lovely dude. Oh, I loved. He told this crazy story. Maybe you'd remember it was something about being at university and his books getting stolen. Do you remember this crazy tale? No. I've got the worst memory for things that have been told to me or happened in my life. Oh, really? It's really boring on podcasts. Is it frustrating or are you at peace with it. I'm kind of at peace with it. And it also means you kind of live in the moment a little bit. Harder to carry grudges? Are you able to hang on to those? I don't think I carry too many grudges. Yeah. My wife has your gift in a sense that she's not burdened by the past because she simply doesn't

remember it. It's a nice thing. I mean, it is weird sometimes where I'm like monumental things in my life and people are talking to me about them from their point of view. And it's not just like, oh, people remember things differently. I'm like, I don't remember half of this. I remember one day, sister said to me, not this is a monumental thing, but my sister said to me like, you've worked with so many of the best leading ladies in Hollywood and all that kind of stuff. Who would you love to work with? And I was like, you know, I think Margot Robbie's like an incredible performance. She's proper movie star quality, but also she's a proper actor as well. She's the two things. And she's brave and bold and make strong choices and she's entertaining even when

it's sad. And she just can do many things at once. So she said her, and she was like, but we've met her. And I was like, what? And apparently we were at the emperienced. Empire awards in London one night years ago. And we won some award. I can't remember what it was for, a film called Filth that I did a long time ago, maybe. And me and Joy were there together, my sister. And we went downstairs to the party. And apparently we were, like, tearing up the dance floor and stealing each other's shoes

and chucking them behind the DJ booths and all that. Apparently, Margo Robbie was like, oh, those two are having fun. And we parted with her. She joined you. Like, all night. Okay. Beck could be a drinking incident, though. I was drinking back then, yeah.

Yeah, so the memory might have been a little hazy because of that. I think I've party with some people I certainly don't remember. Yeah, I'm sure. I think you'd remember if you party with Margo Robbie, though. Right. She's very iconic. Yeah. Yeah, that's a big deal.

Have you thought about getting it looked at? Have you seen a neurologist? I spent so much in my early, sort of up till it, but 2930 worrying about my mental health. Not worrying about it, but keeping a real good eye on it, I'm sort of, this is going quite serious. In the last sort of like 15 years or so, I'm like, I'm fine. I don't need you worry about it. I want to get into that. I had a little bit of a preoccupation in my 20s.

I felt like I was vulnerable to lose my mind. I was worried about that. Yeah. What do you suppose that is? Without going to need, like, finer points and details, because it's other people's stories as well. Lots of substance abuse and mental illness in my early years. And I just worried that it was like in me.

Also, mom was a psychiatric nurse. Yeah, yeah. So were you hearing tales? This is in Glasgow. Let's just set the stage. April in 1979, a little baby comes along. He's so cute. His name's James.

What's his middle name? Don't have one. Wow. He's a junior. He gets three things. Do I need to be named junior? Or am I just like, by default, I'm a junior? I think if your dad has the exact same name as you.

Everybody in my family was named James. I think it was about 10 Jameses. Yeah, no, I was definitely exposed to a lot of that, but also just in the extended family and my community as well. There was a lot of altered state going on. Would mom come home and show? stories. This is what first thought I had when I saw it. Your Mom did. Was she coming home with some wild stories? A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And what was the vibe in Glasgow in the 80s? Shit was popping off. Yeah, mentally speaking.

Yeah. Back in, it was drug kind of capital. I mean, I don't want to talk down about my whole town. I love my hometown. But we've got a massive drug problem. And it was massive back then. And it's become massive again. I think we're the drug death capital of Europe at the moment. Oh, really? So there was just a lot of that kicking about. And I think mental illness and drugs, And alcohol, just alcohol as a drug, they kind of go hand in hand. They're not always hand in hand. Not everybody who drinks has to get mentally treated, but they can, I think, often go hand in hand. And one kind of empowers the other a little bit. I don't know what the underlying issues and underlying causes of that are, but it's a real thing. Yeah. So I'm from Detroit. So that's a very similar vibe, especially in the 80s. Is Detroit back in its feet now? It is shockingly, yes. Mind-blowingly. Yeah, because I left there in 93 and it was as post-apocalyptic as you.

you can imagine, a city. And now, yeah, there's farmers markets and stuff. It's wild. It's impressive. You can get kombucha. You can get a nice, probably a freshly brewed kombucha. Fantastic. The crack epidemic was just sweeping through the entire city. My uncle in recovery, my dad in recovery, you know, the whole scene, similarly a child of divorce. So yeah, maybe that's the seeds as I saw adults around me that were hanging in by a thread. And so maybe it seemed plausible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there was a self-awareness. that came to me very young. Actually, it says it self-awareness.

I think it was an awareness of the extreme things that people around me were going through from a very young age. This sort of took me out of the place I think most children are in for quite a long time, which is I'm the centre of the universe. The world is really just happening to me.

Everybody else, you're just all players in the movie that I'm the lead in, aren't you? And then, you know, the process of growing up is a process of sort of looking less inward and looking outward, responsibility to others. But I think that happened to me quite young. And while I didn't have responsibilities to fill to other people,

I think that I was sensitized early to what others are going through, which was quite a massive reason why I ended up being an actor or a performer and interpreting what it is that other people are going through in their lives, you know, and making that into stories. As an adult, one of the things that I do is I try and fix issues. I try and fix problems, which you might think is a wonderful thing. I'm kind of coming to the realization that sometimes you've got to let people go through what they're going through. You can't fix everything. And by fixing it, you're creating more problems. But part of that fixing as well is you become quite malleable.

And you can slightly lose yourself within that. Yes. Now, I think we share this. So I spent all my summers and all my free time at my grandparents. Because single mother working around the clock. And when I went there, I think I got the thing that my children have, right, which is I was the center of the. the universe when I was at my grandparents' house. They made me whatever I wanted to eat. I got to have snacks. They were available. They had time for me. And I loved it. It was in Eden. Was your experience living with Grandma and Grandpa were the same? Yeah. No, my Granny and Granda were incredible and really just, like incredible. I was about to say smashing people. I never used the term smashing. They were smashing. Yeah. And what does it mean? Fantastic people. They were smashing. They were amazing. My granny still is amazing.

She's still alive, you're really? Oh, wow, that's incredible. Along with the drug death capital of Europe, we were also the teenage pregnancy capital, so she was quite a young. They were incredible, but they were also realistic, pragmatic. They had five of their own kids,

on my aunties and uncles and my mum, obviously. And it's interesting, their point of view on my experience and Joy's experience with my granny and granddad, because they're always like, they were never like that for us. You know what I mean? They're always like, you got a totally different, side, which I think happens a lot. Meaning you got a better version of them than their kids did?

We got them a bit older, a bit more settled, a bit more established financially maybe, a bit more chilled, also not having to balance five kids and two jobs, you know? Yes. So it was an easier time in their life. Same. I think my father even resented me a bit, that his dad was so gentle and kind to me. Yeah. I think that can happen. We're developing a script at the moment, and that is the key thing about the movie, apart from all the other bits, is the relationship between grandfather, father and son and the gap in the middle, the father and the gap between the grandfather and the son. But those two are kind of like circumnavigating the father and having this incredible bond, you know. They were amazing. But I was talking about the other day. I can't

remember who it was too, but it was a dad at the school or something like that and talking about how kids played differently before. And I was like, no, that's true. But if you're going to look at it through the lens of the past, the difference in the past was as well, like, my Granny and Granda loved me and I felt so loved and protected and safe and cherished, he never played with me. I was never played with, but I think the space that that afforded me allowed me to understand how I could play on my own or with friends or I'm bored wasn't a thing that would have been accepted. That's on you mate, do you know what I mean? So you don't get bored, you invent things. You think as well. I remember you used to go to bed, excited to think.

Right. Yeah, yeah. You don't do that anymore because we go to bed and we do that before we got bed and I guess a lot of teenagers are doing that now too, the pure excitement of going like, right what am I going to think of it, and fantasize about and sort of like build in my brain at a young age. But anyway, the playing with thing, I love that I play with my kids and I love that I'm attentive and that I'm present and all these things. But I do wonder sometimes if this wonderful time that feels so fragile and on the precipice at the moment, but we still have a hold of it at the moment where people with a certain

amount of money in the bank have time to play with our kids. and we should take advantage of it. Of course we should. But are we also taking something away from the kid by not allowing them space to just wonder? I think if you feel like it is your job to entertain them constantly, yeah, I think you're going to have a problem. But if when they want to kick off some fake world and you join them,

no, then just they're the author of this experience. Totally. It is different, though, because I would never have asked my parents to play with me. That wasn't even an option. No. Right, right. To be like, hey, will you play house with like, no, either you're doing it in your own head or you have a friend over. But like now I do think parents are behaving more as friends.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many parents I see. And I'm not criticizing parents because it's too easy a past time to fall into, I think, is to criticize other parents. But I do see so many parents so concerned with being liked by their children. And I don't know if that's necessarily should be your super objective. Yeah, my parents could care less. Your job is to help them to grow into people who are potentially capable of happiness and functionality. That doesn't necessarily mean they need to like you every minute.

Often they shouldn't like you. If they're relying on the gratification of your pleasure, they're going to be needy people in relationships going forward. I don't know. I'm getting very specific about something as pseudosychologist. Who knows? Okay, I just had to learn this term today because it sounded fancy. What would you say a count?

estate is. If you found someone grew up on a council estate in Scotland, what do you think that means? Oh, a council estate. Okay, so I'm going to say like a government property. Someone who worked as an ambassador or something has their own property? Yeah, and are we picturing like some acreage maybe and some fencing? Or is it a lawyer's house? It's what they call the projects. Whoa. So keep reading you are from the council of States, and then you were helping an actor kind of prepare for the first thing you were in. Oh, yeah. It was Andy Sergis. And they wanted to know about your accent.

He said, are you from a proper council estate? When I read that, I was like, wait, he grew up kind of fucking fancy. It does sound fancy. I was like, okay. Okay, that's a different thing. The other name that we would have for is a council scheme. Scheme, which is why the film that I directed is called California Schemean, which I never really explained in the movie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, so that was kind of colloquial term. forward as a scheme. Yeah, yeah, yes. If you live in a scheme, you're a schemy, that kind of thing. And was there shame about being lower income there? Not from us, some people might have, but there was also a bit of local pride. And it's strange, isn't it? Like, Drum Chapel, that's the scheme that I come from. I had a great time growing up there and my days were full of adventure and potential and peril and chases and drama and tons of kids running wild. And it felt exciting. My opportunities were limited and my horizons were very close. But it still felt.

like I was in the Wild West sometimes and yet I look back at, like there's something that keeps coming up on Instagram at the moment, which is this documentary made about Drumchapel at the time in the 80s and it is what it was like and I'm just kind of shocked to look at it and see how bad it was then because it felt so vibrant.

And so when I see movies about people who come from the lower end of the socio-economic ladder and a lot of these films are brilliant, by the way, and it's fine to make films about people like this, but they're often sort of wallowing in the deprivation or the suffering, it becomes almost titillating in the pornography of poverty.

And some of that is really valid. Totally brilliant. You need it. But you don't really get too many rom-coms set in a project. You don't get too many buddy movies about two kids from the project. Actually, you used to a little bit. That's kind of what I wanted to do with this.

Even though it's a true story and there's some real big emotional consequences in the movie, the reason that it appealed to me so much is because it was about people who came from a place like, I did, but it was entertaining and it was aspirational and it was like propellant. Like you went to a nice neighbourhood and people were protecting the property,

you know what I mean? And ours, we lived in a row of 20 homes and up the back there was all these flats and apartments and just hundreds of gardens in the middle with middens, what we call middens, like where you put the trash out and all that. And basically, all but I'd say 10% of the neighbours were just like, you can go into our gardens, do what you want. So we had like this wild area that when you're like, eight or nine feels so vast

that you can adventure through and the kids that were in that close like an apartment building we call it close the kids that were not close like they were our enemies, but the kids in that close they would help us sometimes you know what I mean?

It was proper, you get locked in stone throwing battles for four hours at a time and trapped in a den that you couldn't leave there was this amazing bit between there's two schemes in Drum Chapel scheme one and scheme two

and I'm from scheme one in between scheme one and two is this vast sort of valley with a burnt stream that goes right through the middle of it we call it a burn. And it was a huge hill. It went down like that to the burn and then it would go back up to the other side in scheme two. And I remember I was in scheme two, which even within my neighbourhood, you're like,

that's not my territory. I can't be in scheme too. And we get chased at a scheme too. And I just remember I felt like it was in the dukes of hazard because I had to make it to the county line. It's like, if I could make it to the burn, I could make it to the burn and I'd be safe. Do you know what I mean? Which, of course, the bigger boys who were chasing me, just jumped over the burn and beat a shut out of me. Anyway, it's like, oh, you don't respect borders. Okay, cool.

That was another one my curiosity is about your childhood. What was your kind of trajectory with masculinity? Was that complicated without dad present? I had my granddad and I had my uncle Johnny. My uncle Johnny and Patricia were like another set of grandparents I had as well. They were incredible too. So they were to particularly, I would say, kind, funny, gentle, not self-serious, never presenting masculinely, but...

Were masculine figures. And they gave you the attaboys. Yeah, no, totally. There was a kind of tempered thing with my granny and grandeur. They sort of tempered the sort of at a boy you can do anything you want to do vibe with you've got the right to try and do whatever you want to do, but it doesn't mean you can do it. You'll need to make it happen. And sometimes

you won't, you'll just need you pivot. Because I think that sometimes the message to our children is so much, maybe it isn't so much these days, I think it is though. You know, you can do anything. And the pressure that comes with that is that it's implied that they should be capable of achieving anything. Yeah.

I thought there was a uniquely American thing. I know that's huge here. No, I think it's definitely back home as well. It is. Look, I'm not dissing it. It's better than being down on your kid and telling them never going to amount to anything. Absolutely. But there's a pressure that comes with that as well.

It's just in how we phrase it, really. And maybe there's a way to phrase it that propels but doesn't add weight. I don't know if it's because of the way my grandparents sort of framed it or it's who I was as well. but I felt like I'd be all right. You did. And I didn't necessarily expect to make it as an actor. I was very aware that the statistic of 95% of actors are out of work at any one time. Really, you don't see that many movies coming to Scotland.

How many Scottish movie stars are? There was nobody there for me to like see it to be it. I was like, well, look, I'll do this. I did a movie when I was 16 out of the blue at nowhere. That's worth telling. So there's this famous Scottish actor. Famous Scottish actor, director, producer, philanthropist, all-round good guy, David Heyman, not to be confused with the producer of the Harry Potter movies.

He came to my school. He famously played Lady Macbeth in the 70s and an all-male production at the Citizens Theatre. He lived next door to my English teacher. We were studying Macbeth in class just for English, not for performance. And he came in to talk to us. He took a bit of flack from the kids in the class, giving him shit for being a puffy actor or whatever we were calling him.

But I was like, I've seen this guy in movies. He's been in a movie with Arnold. He was in Sid Nancy for Christ's sake. He was legit. And I was like, oh, wow. So I went up to him at the end. And I said, look, when you're making a movie, again, can I come and make tea or make coffee for you for like a week?

Be a runner. Because you all had to do like work placement, whatever you could do in the corner shop or the bank or go plaster walls with your uncle. And he said, yeah, yeah, sure. So six months later, he was making this movie called the near room. He called the school. He said, is that we guy still there? Send him in.

I went in. And he gave me the script. He said, right, this part, this part, this part, these scenes here. Read that. Try and learn that. And then come back. like, what am I acting? Wow. So I read it with him and

he went, can you do it again? I think you need to get quite upset. Can you meet yourself crying? I was like, I don't know. Luckily I am quite emotionally incontinent. We walked out of the room and his arms are me in a nice way consensual. Yeah. Appropriate way. Yeah, and it was fully appropriate. And he went, right, this is a guy that's going to play Kevin.

And then the next thing that happened, Andy Circus walked in with dreads. He's one asking you about the accent. He was playing a Glasgowian pimp and David, the director goes like, he's the real thing. Sit down with him and he'll sort of it. So my first seconds as an actor were sitting down with the great Andy Serphees, who I loved from a kids TV show that he was doing called Streetwise,

which is about crime fighting mountain bike careers in London. Oh, wonderful. Wait, so did you want to be an actor? Never thought about it. Wow. Isn't that crazy? I never thought about it. The lore goes, though, that you then fell in love with your co-star and then you were like,

okay, I want to stick with acting. I didn't fall in love where. There was an actor in the movie who played my sister. She was really nice to me go on and I fancied her. And so she said, you should come to Paisley Youth Theater. So I got on the train every Thursday night or some of that and went all the way out to Paisley because I fancied this lovely young women. Yeah, here we would say you were in love with her, but there we're not saying that.

That's like a big distinction. Yeah, yeah. When you're a little kid, like when you're 15, yeah, I was falling in love with like people in the line at the amusement park in love. Oh, no, I definitely, I would like imprint. I would have gotten married like a thousand times at 15 if I would have been allowed too. You know the Boy Scouts?

Yeah, yeah. Do you have the thing before it, the Cubs? Yeah, Cub Scouts. So we had Cubs Scouts back home, and I was in the Cubs. I lasted a week in the Scouts and then I gave up. But I was in the Cubs. We went away on camp for the week. And the girl guides were also there.

And they were staying on one side of the shalley. We were staying on the other on the side of this big scout hall out in the mountains of Scotland. And there was this young girl. She must have been about 13. She called Linda. Linda, if you remember this, you made a big impression. This is a man who doesn't remember anything, Linda. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, I know. I remember some stuff. And she was doing her good deed for the day because I was complaining. I was like, I didn't bring enough socks. And my socks are full of mud and they're soaking and like, oh, God. Not very resourceful as a Boy Scout. Yeah, I know, right? And she said, get them, me, I'll clean them for you tonight.

And that'll be my good deed for the day. And I swear to you, for about a year after that, I thought about Linda. Yeah. In making her your wife. I'm making her mother. I thought about subjugating Linda for a year after that. Yeah, these first crushes. Oh, they're incredible.

Okay, I've got kind of like a loose theory. The two things that you've done in your early life that boggle me. One is you were considering priesthood for a minute. Yeah. Like that seemed appealing. It would take you places potentially. Essentially, I was like, I always wanted to travel. I had a sense of the world outside and I wanted to meet it.

So missionary work I thought would be I could really do that. Right, right. Good travel plan. And you met Linda and you're like, I don't think I can do that anymore. The celibacy part. Yeah, that part. Then the second thing that I can't imagine do is you had enlisted for the Royal Navy. No, I was accepted.

What did you call it? Conditionally. What was it? Probationary. No, the place was like assured if I wanted it. Okay. So I'm wondering, those two things also are turnkey stability. You mean you're locked into a life.

It's one stop shopping. You join the pre-shood. Everything is mapped out for you. It has the appeal of built-in, structural stability. And I think is where the other thing that they both have, which maybe help pull me in, was notwithstanding the countless negatives and atrocities

that have happened in both those institutions. Yeah, yeah. There's a romance to them as well. There's a romance to the idea of the travel, but also the endeavour, the profound feeling of being part of a team and purpose, which I think appealed to me. That was something I was looking for,

and it wasn't until I kind of half-heartedly said to myself, I do like acting. I have done it a few times, like on TV or film, and I've done this youth theatre thing for like a year. Maybe I should just try it for acting school as well, because really that is what I should have been doing, but I only tried out for one acting school because I couldn't afford to relocate to London

where most of the acting schools are. There's one major one in Scotland, and that was in my hometown of Glasgow, thankfully. So I tried out for it, and luckily I got in, Because if I hadn't, I might have been on a boat somewhere. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare. We are supported by Allstate.

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Checking first is a brilliant idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. Do you remember having any fear at that moment of the future? Like these things like I'm saying that are turnkey, did you have anxiety about having to start real life and having to figure that out?

Do you remember being plagued with that or no? I don't know if I am sort of remembering things differently or not, but I had a sort of security in sense that whatever happened, I'd be okay, which I have less these days, which is nuts. And I just knew that whatever it happened, I'd have a reform of my head and I'd be able to feed myself. I'd make it happen. And I think that's part of the childhood as well.

Not everybody who goes through some mad stuff in their childhood comes out like this, but I think it did help me. I don't know if this is all true. pseudo-physiological stuff, maybe. So if you want to argue with it, please do. But I've heard the science behind having a freezing cold shower in the morning. The reason why it's so good for you is it puts you into a fight or flight. First thing in the morning, your body also understands and your brain also understands,

I could deal with that. And I'm still breathing. And I'm still alive. So when you miss the bus or you miss the meeting, it doesn't become this fucking thing. Yeah. You're not defeated easily. Yeah. And I think I kind of like in terms of my whole life, that happens.

to me early in my life. I'd say the last 10 years or the last few years, it's sort of tested me a little bit more again. I'm further away from that. I'm almost a different person, I guess. Do you know what I mean? You've gotten soft. I think I have.

In the lap of luxury, you're starting to wonder if you're still scrappy. Do you know what? I think I just trusted that I would be the kind of keeping an eye on myself that I did until I was almost 30. I'm speaking very sort of respectfully about mental illness, but I'm literally doing this.

Yeah, yeah, sure. The cartoon version of crazy for the listener, where you spin your finger around. Your temple. This sort of self-awareness and this sort of self-care, I guess, that I would sort of practice up until I was like 30. I then became sort of like, you know what, I can relax. I think I may be relaxed a bit too much.

And I need to kind of keep an eye on it. Well, okay, that's one explanation. What about it's actually weirdly less scary to have nothing to be trying to get something than it is to have something and it occurs to you. I might lose it. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, yeah, what was at stake for you? When?

At the beginning. virtually nothing. You're not going to make a decision whereby you walk away from something fantastic. It's all out there together. You can only go up. Yeah. I remember having a conversation with an actor who described their early career coming out of acting school, feeling like, well, I guess what happens is you come out of acting school,

and then you spend a year or two doing smaller things, and then you become Brad Pitt. Yeah. And I never had that. My idea was if I can pay the bills as an actor, that's my ambition. And that would be massive success. that will almost be like at the top end of what I allow myself to expect. And so setting, I guess, achievable goals, but also having a fair understanding of just how hard it is.

And I get maybe that's because I wasn't looking inward. I was looking outward. I could see how hard it was for everybody. Didn't expect it to just happen for myself. Also, just the brass tacks of it is, like I say, there wasn't 20 Scottish movie stars getting produced every single year. So you're kind of going to like, how is this going to happen for me, you know? Yeah.

So after you get out of school, you graduate in 2000, you have this pretty long period post-gross. where you're just doing a lot of television and you're doing plays, and Joe Wright sees you at a play, and he virtually over the years offers you kind of a couple different movie roles. You want nothing to do with it. Most of that I didn't want anything to do with it. It was Joe asked me to be in a BBC costume drama, Charles II, and it was a fairly small part that I was up for doing. And then I got offered like a lead role, one of the main characters in the, and the

original version of the, you know, that's show William H. Macy, that was shameless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The original version that was set in Manchester, and I was in the original cast of that. Oh, my God, you know how dumb I am? That's 0405. I didn't realize you were in the original one. Yeah, yeah. I did my research. I thought you were on the Showtime version. No, no, no, it was nuts. Like watching the first episode of the American one, I watched the first 20 minutes of it, watching actors and that do stuff that we improvised on the day, and you're like, this is wild. Oh, yeah. Is it the Jeremy Allen White character?

I think so. Wow. I don't know. I couldn't be held to account. We'll find out later. I said, look, I've got to go and do this show. My agent was like, you've got to go and do the show. You're going to get paid more.

It's a really good writer. It's great. It could be a really good thing. And it's a bigger part. You'd be daff not to do it. And I remember Joe was really annoyed with me. He was really angry with me. And then he got me back when he was going to do a movie version of Bird Song,

which later became a really good TV version. And he brought me in and we worked on that. And then for some reason, somebody was going to do atonement. They pulled out. And working title said to Joe, get off bird song, we want you to do atonement. And so he brought me in for that. And I camera tested a bunch of times with Kira. And I knew who I was up against.

I think it was me, Killian, Jake Gyllenha, apparently. Oh, Jesus. Oh, fuck. All the handsomest guys in the world. Yeah. I think Last King had come out. Wanted hadn't happened. Narnia had happened.

Yeah, 05 is Narnia. 06 is Scotland. And then 07 is Atonement. Yeah, so shot it in 2006. I loved playing that part. I loved the process of working with Joe on that. He was like one of the best actors' directors I've ever worked with. And I totally stole from him when I directed my first movie.

Not actually with how I talked to the actors, but how I talk to the crew? Why, how does he talk to the crew? He did this thing that maybe other directors will be angry at me for saying this because they say, I do do that. I don't know, but he's the only director. I feel like I've ever seen do this, which is you do the rehearsal,

usually the D.P. is there and the first AD is there and the actors and the, director. And then you go talk about shots a little bit. And then the crew come in for the crew show. That's the end of that. And then the ADO start telling people like, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, we're going to do that. And then we all filter away. The movie starts to kind of come together. We would do the crew show. And at the end of the crew show, Joe would go, right, so that was the scene. And this is what it is to me. And this is what I want maybe the audience to feel about it. This is what James' character is going through here. Part of the arc of the pivotal point for his

arc is at this point. And then for Kira's character, this is happening. And what we're really going do it and he's playing music through all this as well. Oh my God. And he goes like, okay, let's go. And everybody steps away feeling like a movie maker. Right. They're all on the same page. Rather than like, did I get a script? What are we making? Is this down Nabi or what? Oh, that's beautiful.

It welcomes everybody in and makes them invest, I think. It gives them ownership over it. Yeah. You might talk to my crew and they'd be like, oh, yeah, didn't know what she did that. But it fell, like you are making it. It is a miracle. And he said this, Joe, and I've said it for years since. Filmming is a miracle of collaboration.

The more you can accept that and rely on that, the more you welcome in the great technical professionals and artists that are at your disposal. We've made way more movies in their department than you have as a director. It's really hard, I think, for a director sometimes to do that because they're sitting there having done maybe two shorts and a music video and suddenly they've got like five million budget and they're like, okay. I need to have the answers to all these questions. Or they just kick the can down the road a lot of time because I feel like they're scared

to say I don't have the answer. Whereas for me, I was like, I've been booed on stage. I've watched people leave. My movies have been slaughtered. My ego can take you thinking I'm not a good director, but I need to find the answer here. So if I didn't have the answer, I'd be like, help me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, quickly, how did you go from shameless to getting Narnia? That's kind of a big, was there some fortuitous meaning or something? I was kind of on the up in British TV, and I got shameless, and shameless had done really well with its first season. It kind of became like a big thing, quick, And so maybe that helped get me on the radar a wee bit. But I mean, I'd been kicking about for a few years by this point, four or five years. I hear, and I don't know if this is wrong, I heard they had an older actor who was like in his

30s at the time, who was really well-known comedian. They did a chemistry test or something with one of the wee girls that was potentially going to play Lucy. And they all went, this is creepy. This is creepy as shit. So they needed to find a sort of fairly experienced actor. who looked like a child. And I looked like a child until I was about 29 or 30.

And you have a little sister. Yeah, only two years younger, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but you have experience. Yeah. So they wanted the lack of threat because, you know, Mr. Tumner's essentially kidnapped, Lucy. I know. And drugs are.

Yeah. Well, not drugs, I. Put her to sleep with music. Drugs are with music. Yeah. And then hands are over to the white witch. It is pretty intense when you think about it. You're really making me rethink.

Well, do you know, another. story to embarrass you. So I saw it in the movie theater with my best friend, Callie. And we walked down and she goes, Mr. Tumnus is so hot. What? This is so mental. He was, and it is obsessed. And I'll be honest, I was like, the half animal. Half a guy? Yeah. I was like that. Go boy. So it was a joke for a long time that she was in love with Mr. Tumness. There's definitely been some Tumness kink over the years. Yeah. It definitely makes me like Kelly Moore. He's king. He's king. I guess. Yeah, that's great.

You know the weird thing? C.S. Lewis, when he wrote that, he writes a scene where the wee girl comes to the wardrobe, she meets a gentleman, they get on famously, they go back home, they have a brilliant conversation, and then he puts her to sleep and he hands her over and kidnaps her, right? For that role, he chose the fawn or the satyr, which in Greek mythology anyway is the not just follower, but disciples really of Dionysus, the Bacchai, the Bacus, who engaged in major raves and orgy. Like they were a promiscuous sexual entity.

The pan figure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess she could sense it. Yeah, she was looking for something a little. Really? God bless Kelly. Good on you, Kelly.

That movie was an enormous success. I mean, it made $500 million. Were you experiencing after that movie? Like, oh, I'm in a major hit. People are seeing me on the street. Were you having that moment after that movie? I don't know. actually if I was, because I'd looked so different.

I'm not sure that it really did that. Shameless was the biggest thing. Back home, anyway, it was shameless. And it's on TV. You're in everyone's living room. Exactly. And that was such a sort of, we must tune in to Shameless because it was just what's going to happen this week.

It's mental. I think Shameless was a big one. And then it was probably wanted for a long time. Then X-Men, of course. Well, there's one interesting thing about Last King of Scotland, my favorite movie. I love that movie so much. I stole one of the songs for the second movie I directed. I just put it straight in there.

That incredible, like, Afro-Cuban song that's playing, I can't have the top of my head think, remember the name. It's the most incredible soundtrack. But I learned today that Forrest Whitaker suggested you to Kevin McDonald. I don't think so. I thought I was on board before Forrest. Oh, okay. I was on board from like I was 22 or something. And again, it got lucky because we had a Scottish director, Kevin McDonald, and we had a movie that kind of needed a star in it for Fox Searchlight to back it and make it work.

and we were a pretty low budget, but still, I think they were out to Sam Jackson, who have later worked with in love, but he wasn't available in the end, so Forrest came in, but before that, I was off for the job, I take the job, I'm going to do the job,

but it was like a year of like, are we going to get greenlight, are we going to find the right guy for Eerie? And in that time, kind of what happened, and wanted happened on this as well, where they were like, this is a low budget independent feature,

and they were like, we need a star in that role. Nobody knows who this kid, James McAvoy is. The director who was Scottish, I think, was like, we need somebody who's Scottish because the role is Scottish. The film's called Last Gang, Scotland.

It's important. And I don't want somebody doing an accent that's bad. And they made him see lots of people who were stars already. And he just fought for me. And I was so lucky. And he asked me to camera test a year after I'd got the part. And I was like, ah, fuck. I feel like you could only lose it.

Yeah. Totally. And I think I gave a really bad audition. And somehow he still fought for me to get the part. So thank you, Kevin McDonald. You're so outrageously good in it. Thank you. Is it a movie you're proud of?

Yeah, definitely. It's such a fucking incredible movie. The texture of the movie, the colors of the movie. Anthony Dodd Mantle and Kevin, their work together in that was just stunning. And I've worked with Anthony again, the DP, when I did a Danny Boyle film. He's just so, so good. He felt very Danny Boyle. The movie felt pretty Danny Boyle in a good way.

Anthony's work is so dynamic. Always on the edge, always trying to push the forefront of a new technology or something, which I don't think necessarily he was doing in Last King, but it felt really. really dynamic. And it's a beautiful film to look at it as well. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really proud of it. Yeah, it's so spectacular. And you were so young when you got to do that. It's a kid, man. Yeah, yeah, 27. I look at myself in that and I'm like, I look 16. This is so weird. Yeah. Okay, then Atonement comes along and we talked about that and you were nominated for Golden Globe for that. You and Kira nominated for a BAFTA. Now, this is not to be mean, but I know this happened twice,

where Atonement is based on a novel. And the author came out and said, said that she did not agree with the casting of you, right? No, that happened. Well, it also happened. Zadie Smith on White Teeth. Well, then there's a third because of the one that I wrote now. Was it his dark materials? No.

No, no, no, no, no. Never said that. That's not it. But I kind of stayed away from Philip because I was scared to meet him. Okay. And I also, on a tournament, chose to stay out of the way of Ian McKeown. Because I was just like, I'm nothing like the character you wrote physically. And I don't want you to tell me that to my face.

It's crazy. I remember on that set, I was playing the lover of Cecilia, or Celia? Cecilia or Cecilia? Played by Kira Knightley, an incredible actor, one of the most beautiful women in the world.

And I was like, and I'm like, I scraped in through like endless camera tests past people who already had big movie careers. I was like, I'm kind of lucky here. And like the character's written is this like, I think the word Adonis is how he's described.

He's like, sex foot five, working class, but going to private school kind of like Adonis Bill and all that. And I'm like five foot nothing and like skinny and paley shit. And you know, I still been able to do my job and feeling entitled enough to be there.

It was a wild success. They say action and I forget all that. But then I also remember Akira's boyfriend at the time was on set a lot. And we were filming this beautiful, beautiful country house outside Ludlow and Shropshire. And it was the middle of like a heat wave in summer. I just remember like one of these moments

just thinking of myself like, I hope people believe that she'd actually fall in love of me or whatever and like, oh God, that would actually be a couple. And I just looked up. And I saw her boyfriend at the time who was no top horn, six foot odd, jacked, long, flowing hair, just coming over the hill like Heathcliff. You know what I mean? And I'm just like, ah, fuck.

If I ever needed a shriveler, that was it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, now you start X-Men. That franchise starts in 2011. You play Professor X. I guess I was wondering. When you go into that movie and it's Fastbender and Jennifer Lawrence and that gang, how does that relationship evolve?

Are you ever intimidated? How does it evolve? You end up doing four together. Is it like, do you keep returning to summer camp? What's the vibe of doing four of those movies? Yeah, the first ones were nuts, actually. The first one, I was like the most senior member of the cast, really, in terms of movie experience and age.

And then getting to be on the other side of the decision-making process a little bit because I was part of the camera tests with all these different actors, like Moira and Magneto even. I remember we saw a few great actors from Magneto who were incredible and I've gone on to have amazing careers. But when Michael came in, it was just like, as a movie star, but again, a real actor as well. And we thought, like, we could definitely build something

and have good chemistry together. I think the first one's great. It's a lot of fun and it's a bit of a reboot in terms of tone from any of the other X-Men movies. I didn't realize Matthew Vaughn directed that until today. Yeah. And he really put his own stamp on it. I loved it for that.

The movie kind of like survives on the chemistry of the buddies. Do you know what I mean? The buddy movie. Well, not to be cruel to previous comic book movies, but this one was actor first. I don't think I had ever seen a cast assembled that was so actor driven. Favro did that with having Downey play Iron Man. I think that was very like actor first. But other than that, this one is just, oh, this is so cool.

These are the superheroes. That was Matthew totally, totally going for that. Character arc was like so important to the plot progression. But everybody that came in after that was just like one after the other incredible actor, incredible actor, incredible energy as well. I never forget the first time I met Jen. And she like flew in. She's already picking up awards and up for an Oscar for like Winter's Bone or something like that. I wish she up for an Oscar for that anyway, but winning everything.

She hadn't done silver linings yet or she? No, no, that was a good few years later. She was 18. She got off the plane, came in, caution fitting, rehearsed all day and then took a plane out that night. You know what I mean? I didn't see it again for two weeks. But the energy and the kind of quality of charisma of that person, it was like standing in front of a high-powered fan.

You're just like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the fastest wits I've been around in the movie business is Jen Lawrence, her and Stephen Frye. Yeah, yeah, yeah, special. Okay, split I want to talk about just because you got jacked. You know, I didn't get that jacked for split. I didn't have time.

Okay, glass, the sequel. Split, I got the gig like two weeks before we shot it. it because it was meant to be, I'd get in trouble naming the actor who was, I've done it too many times and apparently I should stop doing it. But anyway, there was another actor playing the part and he, for whatever reason, decided not to do it fairly last minute. I got the job two or three weeks beforehand, so I really didn't have a chance to get too big. I was toned and all that, so it was fine. And we made the most out of it with lighting and stuff, but glass, I'd actually been in hospital. Or what? I had a split personality. I had a split personality. I had a lung

puncture because they saw a shadow on my lung. So they wanted to biopsy it to see if it was cancer, which it wasn't, which was great. But that was botched and I nearly died. Because you got an infection? Yeah, I was at home two days later and my lungs just collapsed in bed one night and I was on my own as well, so it was crazy. Oh my goodness. Crazy. So I spent like two or three weeks in hospital. They tried everything to clean out. Nothing was working. So they were like, we're going to need to cut you open big style, go in with like dissoe basically and just like clean you out. Clean you out. Scoop it all that. So I had to then go from that to one of the X-Men movies, and I knew I had the time of that X-Men movie, which is like four or five months,

to get ready for glass. And glass, unlike Split, I was the beast, like most of the movie. And I was just outside and broad daylight as well as. You don't have too much cool studio lighting to give you, like, the contours. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I was like, I'm really going to need to do the real thing. I'm going to need to go for it. Yeah.

I remember saying in night, like, you're going to need to get me a trainer. It's like, oh, yeah, we'll get you down the local gym in one of the trainers or whatever. I was like, no. I want the Marvel trainers before and they're great. Do you know what I mean? But I'm going to need somebody that can make you look like a Greek fucking figure from mythology. Do you know what I mean? The people who know how to do it. And they're expensive. But the guy that worked me was amazing. And he came to Montreal where it was making the movie for X-Men. It wasn't Duffy by chance. No, no, no, no, no. It was Magnus Ligback.

Perfect name for that. He looks like a Viking. He didn't move in with me, but he was just with me a lot and kind of regulated what I ate and trained me just right. And basically for the first four weeks, he rehabilitated me. I could walk, but I couldn't run. couldn't cycle, couldn't jog. And I was like on set every day as well, doing crazy hours as Charles. And so he did a lot of rehabilitation and functional movement and then put the pounds on me really fast.

And do you not get addicted to it? Like I'm so addicted to it. I was addicted to it for about three years. And I was honestly, the biggest I've ever been. I was in the film, Speak No Evil. There was a shot in it where people are like, you're CGI there, you're a CGI there. You were CGI.

I wasn't. Was it a decision to like, all right, I'm going to not. Yeah, I got a movie in Germany back in 2024, and it was like, this is not good for this character. I stopped doing that. I started running. I started walking and just eating a hell of a lot less

and got skinny again for the first time in years. My neck kind of disappeared. My traps get too big, too quick. Poor you. Oh, darling. It's just a shame. My muscles are just, they just grow so easily. They're out of control.

And then kind of liked the hours that I got back in my day. And then I started directing, and you give your whole life to that for like two years. This is two years since I wrapped the movie. I started properly working on the movie about three years ago. And I'm still here. Three years later, I'm still here trying to sell my movie. It's different as a director. You never let them go.

I know. You think about it all the time. You're sweating blood about it all the time. You're anxious about it all the time. You're loving it all the time. Hopefully you are loving it all the time. I did. I was lucky enough to be able to love it.

But I think that's why it's important to do something if you're capable. And, you know, not everybody's in this position. as a director. But if you're lucky enough to be able to choose your work and create your work, you really need to be trying to create the stuff that you feel genuinely passionate about, because you are going to sweat blood for it. And if you're doing that for something that you're not really invested in, oh my God, it would be soul destroying. So how do you decide to take on California scheme? And do you read the script? Because you're so employed as an actor. We could have gone for another two hours on all the things you're doing. And then also you're doing

fucking plays in the West End. Why at that moment do you decide, yeah, okay, I'm going to make the time for it now? What's happening in life? First of all, it's the professional thing of I've not reached the end. I've not completed acting. But I am at a place where I'm really quite comfortable. You know, if I've got the right kind of role that I'm suitable for, then I'm pretty comfortable.

And so it was about kind of putting myself in a place where I'm not comfortable again, I guess, and challenging myself. Were you getting a little bit bored? I heard you say it in other interviews that this probably does correlate to a mid-level, life crisis to some degree. Directing? No. I was either Porsche or directing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think directing was part of the midlife crisis. That's something that I felt I needed to do for years and years and years. And since I was in my 20s, really. But having a nice career as an actor got in the way of it, I guess. What was it about this one at this time? I don't know. I put the word out there that I wanted to direct.

And look, how many first time directors get to do that? Hey, I'm just going to tell my agent I fancy directing a film and then I'll start to get script. I'm really very genuinely aware of what a privilege. position that is to be in. But everything that was coming to me was the kind of stuff that, like, for example, I've played like five or six Scottish people in my entire career, because there's just not that many movies made about Scottish people. And when I say I want to be a director, it's a privilege, I get furnished with scripts. Every one of them are Scottish.

A lot of them are, like, the poverty kind of exploitation a little bit. I think the writers would argue that it's not exploitation, it's an examination and a sort of revelation. But I wanted to do something that was entertaining. So when this came along, it kind of ticked those boxes, because it was about that end of the socio-economic ladder. It was also about my home country. And it was also about something that I've experienced. The boys in this film, to make it in the business and show business, they had to sacrifice their authenticity, their integrity and their identity.

In a very specific set of circumstances where they're almost told they need to do that. Now, that doesn't necessarily get told to everybody. But that is a path, as an artist, you are going to walk. The path that they walk in that film is one that I still feel like I've walked a version of for 30 years, which is how much of myself am I sacrificing to get what I want? And what do you want? Do you want a bigger part, a better part,

more money, awards? Like, what is it? And at what point, because everybody has sacrificed something, the postman sacrifices his time with his family every time he walks out the house to go and be a postman. So we all sacrifice something for our jobs,

but when is it too much? When are you sacrificing your identity? Your identity, your health, your whatever, but when is it too much? Because the business is, I think, based on sacrifice. The whole idea of the show must go on,

You wear it as a badge of honour and you adhere to that principle. The show must go on. But you're like, fuck, if the show must go on, it's really easy to exploit people. It's really easy to hurt people. And also your bosses are usually only your bosses for a few months or a season or whatever. You're somebody else's problem on the next one. So just get what you need to get out of them, no matter what it does to them.

Just why it's a dangerous place for kids, I think. And so the idea of the show must go on being based on this idea that I've always got on my head, which is like the first play was an animal or a person. person being sacrificed. And they were trying to make the rain come or whatever. And it was smoke and there was production values and all that kind of stuff. And everybody was just there to try and make the rain come for the crop. But at the same time, everyone was like, that was really fucking cool. Can we do that again next Saturday night? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So I think a relationship with what's on stage and what's on screen and any kind of performance are part of the contract is the audience

expect you to sacrifice something. Yeah. They expect you leave something of yourself on the table or on the screen, you know? Because they're going to openly admire and adore you. And we know intrinsically that you should have to pay something in return. Yeah, I think so. You shouldn't. I know, but I think that is the that is the intrinsic bargain on the table. We are social primates. We are status analysts. For us to willingly give up status, which is what you do as an audience member. You've got to give me something. I want to see you bleed a little bit. You got to earn it. That's the artistic dynamic between you and the audience. But that permeates, I think, through the business side and the kind of institution of the business as well, where it's like it's all about sacrifice. So everybody just sort of willingly sacrifices.

And that's why a lot of people get hurt, I think. Yes. Okay, so let's just start with the fact that this is based on a true story, which is kind of mind-blowing. And I wonder, did you have any awareness of Billy and Gavin in 2003? Do you know what? My sister was in a Scottish hip-hop group at the time called Streetside. And she, I seem to remember her mentioning something about these mad guys. the brain. But no, I really didn't know anything until the script came across my desk. And then I had

a look at the documentary. There's a really good documentary called The Great Hip Hopes. And I was like, this is wild. And it gives me the opportunity to entertain, but also talk about something that is part of the collective kind of Scottish experience as well. Yeah. So, okay, so there's these two boys in Scotland, Billy and Gavin, and they're of low economic status. They're getting bullied when we meet them. They're not the studs of their school, right? They're getting chased everywhere they go. And they're super in rapping and then they hear about this record label that's open auditions trying to find the next Eminem basically. The flight at the time, I think was the next D12, the next M&M.

Right. So these two kids go down to London, which it's its own huge journey. The thing that I loved about it that you immediately capture is like, I just remember being that age. And whatever I did, I thought I was in a fucking famous novel. Like just the enthusiasm I had to go to downtown Detroit or to go to go do this. thing. I used to listen to music on my way to work. I felt like I was in a movie. It was amazing. And I don't know if I just don't have that anymore because I'm old. Yeah. Or if I don't have that

anymore because we're never just alone with our thoughts as much as we are because of like social media or whatever. Is that it? I think it's just the fantasy. There's so much unknown ahead of you. And so because it's unknown, you're free to just pick the most spectacular version of what the known might be. But then over your 47 years, a lot's known. A lot's known. that's been experienced. If I could implant into 17-year-old James, your life currently on paper, what you would have thought that was going to feel like versus what it has felt like? I'd never believe it. The gap between those, right, would be so enormous. Huge. Yeah. Huge. And I think I'd look at some of the decisions I've made or some of the sort of ways that I live my life and I'd be like,

no, don't do that, man. I think I would judge myself a little harsh thing. Sure. I don't know about you as a performer and as an actor, but one of the reasons why I think, performance or in education for young children is really valuable, especially for kids who come from neighborhoods without many opportunities, is that for me, standing on stage or standing in front of the camera, getting bad reviews, failing, and then still realizing I'm still alive, and I get to go again, and I get to try again, and I'll learn, or I don't. It makes me understand that the next time I need to go into your room and speak to people, whether you become an actor or not, putting your kids on stage, not for work, just for fun.

it can really help them understand that when the spotlight is on them in everyday walk of life, they'll be okay. They'll survive. It doesn't become a fight or flight response. It becomes like, no, I just need to tell them what my plan is for the next week of this business. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Death is not on the other side of this family.

No, if I can't speak properly, it doesn't mean I'll die and it doesn't mean I'm going to get fired and all these things. And I think that when you get a certain level of higher education and people say entitlement, I think the biggest thing that they come away with is not more intelligence necessarily. is, but a feeling of entitlement. Entitlement is not a bad thing. Everybody should feel entitled to be there, to be present, to have value, to have their place in the room. The only thing that's wrong is there's only a certain pocket of people in society who get

to feel entitled. Yes, yes. So these two kids, they make their way to London, and they rap for these scouts, and they're so fucking Scottish. Yeah. And I guess what would be funny to us over here is like, we don't know all the rungs of the status ladder. far as these accents go. But what is clear is that it's pretty looked down upon, yeah?

Yeah, there's definitely a regional bias. It's not just to do with Scotland, actually. It's like to do with even the north of England and certain regional parts. We have it obviously with the South, right? Like the North makes fun of the South and the implication is that they talk dumb. I'm learning. That's a similar. It's definitely a part of our culture. It's not every single person, but it's been enough that I can 100% back it up that it happens. You know what I mean? Is it the worst kind of bias? Is it the worst kind of prejudice? No, there are many kinds. But this is the one that I've experienced my life. And it's also a movie that I resonated with because of it.

But it also gives you a fun chip on your shoulder, I think. A chip, a chip, a chip. I don't know if I've had the chip in my shoulder. I used to you a little bit when I was in my early 20s. I was looking for the fight because it made you feel like you were solid. And you were on solid ground. You knew where you were. Just find the injustice and fight it.

Whereas I'm a bit more forgiven and kind of take it on with conversation more now. But I think that one of the reasons why the story is fairly universal, even though it is very specifically Scottish, is because that happens everywhere. There's whole swathes of North America who get left out when it comes to the people that are allowed to be seen on screen all over the world, all over Britain,

there's parts of it where, no, you don't get to be an artist in that way, you don't get to be on screen in this way. There's whole swathes of our society that aren't served culturally or represented culturally, as we know, it's a reductive thing for me to say, we know this. But this example of it was something that I noticed. And sometimes people got to me, oh, but there's so many Scottish actors

and I'm like, name me 10. Right. Go. Like, name me 10 Scottish movies. I can't. And name me 10 in the last 10 years. You kind of go, boo-hoo. It's nobody's responsibility

to serve the cultural needs of Scotland other than Scotland. We need to do better. It's not Hollywood's responsibility to make movies about Scottish people. But that's why I wanted to make this. I wanted to make a film that was about the Scottish experience,

which is also sort of celebratory of Scottish culture and also entertaining. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. if you dare. Yeah, so these kids, they do this audition, and of course they're promptly told, like, we can't even fucking understand you. They literally get called the rapping proclaimers,

and that's a line that the two guys say that they heard right then. And by the way, the Proclaimers rapping, I'm here for that. What are the Proclaimers? The Proclaimers, and I would walk 500 miles and I'm down for the rapping proclaimers, honestly. But for these two guys who were so in love with American culture and hip-hop, and comic books, that was the worst thing you could have said, not even being rejected, but to be likened to these arguably

quite straight, square, folksy rockers from Scotland and told that nobody wants you doing this. So then they decide they're going to present themselves as rappers from California. And this is a real story. Yeah, they invent these whole characters. They basically engage in method acting for two and a half years of their life. And the real story was two and a half years.

It was two and a half years. It was two and a half years. Our movie feels like two and a half months. There's a millie vanilla parallel a little bit. These guys could actually perform. They could rap. They could write as well. Yeah, they were quite good.

But there was a lie at the heart of it. Yeah, so they start pretending they're from L.A., but they don't know anything about L.A. At one point, they say, we're in L.A., and they go, like, Beverly Hills. And they're like, oh, that was a miss. We're from the projects. Which projects?

You know, the ones in Beverly Hills. And they're like, what? There's a beverage to go, like, where are you from? Where they go Sandy? And they're like, yeah, Sandy Angeles. Yes, yes. They don't know shit. So they got to fucking get their story straight.

And then lo and behold, they go and perform somewhere as these American rappers who are apparently on tour in Europe. And there's a scout in the audience from the same record label, of which you play the CEO or the president of that. And they get now round two audition with the same company. Now there as Americans. And they get signed. The same music.

The same song. Wow. Just like with a few. did litig tweaks and different accents. And they get a record contract. Wow. And then they start performing. And then now this pressure of like, when are they going to finally announce?

Yeah, the jigs. So the idea was that they were going to go down there, hopefully get the deal. And then the game was, as soon as we release something, we're going to come out and expose the industry for this regional bias that we've suffered. Because here we are with the exact same tracks and you all love it. And here we are on MTV. and they did go on MTV a lot. And then, of course, when they get that moment in the movie,

they get that moment where they release the track and they're on MTV and here's the moment. They're going to come clean. They're going to embarrass the music industry or at least this label that they've been working with. And of course, they can't not enjoy the fame. Okay, back to the thing that we just said about you, too, is like they were fearless when they had nothing to lose.

And then the second, they had something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were overrun with fear of losing it. It's weird, though. I don't think I've ever been afraid of losing my career. Yes, I have. I don't know. What is it that made me mental in the last few years?

You would concede you'd have to adjust your lifestyle now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a legitimate fear. It's like, I live this way, I enjoy living this way, and I'd have to change that. I guess so, I guess so. I don't really feel fear. It's weird. I don't get motivated by fear.

So it's an interesting question for me, but I think one that I'll bore everybody by sitting here pondering with that. Why did I go off the rails just recently? Yeah, it's weird. weird to think about you can rest on a big moral high ground when you don't have anything. You know, like, I mean, this is going to be an unpopular opinion, I think, but I do think it's true. And when I listen to people on podcasts and stuff, and they're always taking down, like, people who have money or people who are famous. And I'm like, it's really easy for you to say

because you don't have it. And when you have it, of course you want to keep it. Of course you like it. Of course it changes you. I don't know. It's a tricky. Judge mentalism. I find it so hard to accept. I'm not patting myself on the backs and I never judge people. We judge people every day. We do it subconsciously. Well, you have to do not get mugged. You make an assessment of the person you're chatting with. Are they going for my wallet or not? Do I trust this person to get in their car? Exactly. There's nothing wrong with a certain level of it. Yeah, you have to to survive. But going out of your way to express your opinions on how other people are living in your lives that have got no bedding on your day, how they parent, how they park. It does not affect me. Let them be. Do you know what I mean?

Yes, yes, yes. It's hard enough being yourself without having opinions about other people shit. Yeah. Anyway, it's a weird one. There's a lot of different uses for it. Some of them are just vile. Some of them are to shore up your own motivation, which is like, ah, that's why I work really hard on the thing so that I'm not like that. Do you spend time in the playground with like other parents, people you've never met before, but your kids are playing together. So the other parents kind of telling you their parental choices with conviction, like, no, no, it's the only way. You must, you must, you must. And you're like, I know when you go home, you're doing the exact same thing as me,

which is, this isn't working. Is this right? I don't know. Should be trying something else? But you're in the park, proselytizing to me, editorializing to me, preaching to me, like you have completed parenting. Yes. But that's to make you feel better.

That's the great illusion of parenting is you do figure it out. And then one week later, they're different. Yeah, they move the goalpost. Yes. And you're like, oh, no, I need a news. strategy this week. And then they become teenagers and you're like, oh my God, now I need an entirely, like, I'm meeting them almost as totally different people now.

Because there's quite a lot of years between my eldest and my youngest. You're 16 and four? Yeah, yeah. I'm doing it all again. And it's kind of hilarious being back in the park and all the dynamics with other parents. Yeah. It's this thing that guys do quite a lot where you'll be watching your kid playing with

some other kid. And we've never met before, but our kids are suddenly like tight. And you're like standing beside this guy you remember met before. And he'll go like, oh, your kid's really like, you can really run or like, oh, he can really hold the monkey birds brilliantly. That's great. And like, what age is your kid? Because he's cratty like, gauge it. Is my kid failing? Should my kid be doing better? And you're like, oh, it's a weird thing we do with this kind of comparison. I always want to say like, oh, he's three. Actually. It comes from a sweetness because I do think you don't know when you have a baby. You don't know what they're supposed to be doing. So you are kind of looking. You are kind of looking. to see, like, are they on crack? Yes, do I need a specialist? You're always waiting to find out if you need a specialist or not. She's been making this weird noise really loudly for a month and a half.

Is it time for a special? Yeah. And it just goes away and you're like, oh, thank God we didn't need a special. I know. It's a wild thing you do being a petting. Well, the other fun thing that it exposes, once you turn on the light switch to being popular, the intoxication of that and the availability of drink and drugs.

in attractive people in late nights. The rapidity at which that took over these two, how one navigates that in a healthy manner is beyond me. Anyone who can do that, I'm impressed. Especially when you're young as well, and you're still forming and all that. I navigated it a little bit with, for a lot of my 20s, I was kind of keeping an eye on myself.

And I think I went too far, but I was like work ethic, work really hard, be super professional. That was my life. It was kind of devout actor. Were you not going out and partying at all? Little bit, but nothing, nothing regular. You were married really young too. I was married pretty young.

And nobody at home was going, oh, we are working class and I always remember you're working class. But it's in you. You come from it and I left it really young. But in my head, it was like the whole idea of stay true to where you come from, don't forget what you came from, all that, which is a good thing in some ways. I think I went too far away a little bit. All my hatred of judgmentalism, I was way more judgey when I was in my early 20s and

all that. Of your peers and how they were. Yeah, decisions they were making and all that. And so that stopped me from really taking advantage of all the opportunities I could have had that could have also messed me right up. Yeah. Do you think some of it too is driven by the fact that you didn't feel like you belong there? So you had to really prove with this crazy work ethic and this crazy dedication?

Maybe. As this piece of shit from Scotland, this terrible place with this ugly accent. Not just that, not just even the regional bias, even just physically as well. Like I say, again, you're playing a romantic lead against Keir Knightley and like an amazing. amazing beautiful costume drama that you just know is one of the best things you've ever worked on and will we'll ever work on in your life. You're like, like, 5'7,

malnourished pasty, transparent skin looking. They wouldn't have cast you if people saw you like that, though. Yeah, just you're seeing yourself. But in terms of your self-perception, and by the way, all these things that I've just said are true as well. They're not really arguable about me at the time. And so you go, like, I'm not the usual thing that would get here. So I realize how lucky am, I better not fuck it up.

I got to work extra hard. On Atonement, I remember Joe wanted to live with some of the key crew and all of the actors. In Shropshire, near Ludlow, where we were filming, they all stayed in this big manor house, kind of like the manor house that was used as a location. And I remember thinking to myself, I can't do that because I was scared of it. I'm seeing the real you. Maybe. Or drinking too much, going off if it's parties every night or whatever.

I don't know that's what happened there. But if it was like that, would I be able to kind of resist that? And would I then be able to do my job? So I remember it being a bit of a thing. And it became quite clear that it was like, no, he definitely wanted his own estate together. So I kind of framed it as an actor. And I was just like, look, Robbie is, he's the only one of the whole group who's working class. He is separate.

He speaks like them, but he isn't like them. And I think I should be separate. You convince them. Yeah. I lived in like the gardener's cottage of the property that the film was shot on. It was amazing. It was really beautiful. I was it for like three months.

It was gorgeous. Okay. So to finish up California scheme, it obviously comes to a head. This lie is going to come out. And then their life just kind of collapses. Yeah. And the title sequence, we see footage of these real guys.

And it's so rad to see it because it's a very unbelievable story. And it kind of cements it for me. At the beginning, when it comes up at the beginning, it says, based on a true story, and then we flip the word story to lie. Uh-huh. Does that make you think that you're watching a true story? Or does that make you think it's possibly fictional? No, it didn't do that, not the latter.

Because I think sometimes we did have a version of it without that at all at beginning. So people just thought they were watching a rags to riches to ragged story. And then at the end, they dropped the information that, holy shit, this actually happened. It's way more rewarding, in my opinion, to know what actually happened. But I also love non-fiction over fiction, but whatever. The notion these two guys are going to pull off being American, they're not even that good at it. You know what? If you ever watched the documentary, which is a really good documentary, the great hip-hop hoax.

The guys' accents are not really good. That slip in left, right and center. You'd have to be an angle for you. to believe that these guys were American. They were on MTV and no one's catching English. They were on MTV multiple times. It was TRL was the show back now. But we copyright.

We could say it was MTV, but we couldn't say it was TRL. Back then, I would be able to tell you if somebody was doing a bad American accent. Like in 2003, I'd be able to go, you're doing an accent. But here's the thing. There was execs from the record label, because the record label was a massive international record label. They had the American offices arm and all that kind of stuff. the execs from the American office coming over to Britain going,

what are you guys doing here? You need to get on a plane. We're going to take you over. We're going to go wild in America. That's where you need to be. And the guys the whole time were just going like, we got British passports. They still hadn't signed a contract because how could they sign a contract?

They've got no ID that is anything other than Scottish. They couldn't get ID. It would be judged to be fake if they made it. So they had to just keep dodging and swerving. That was all in the script at one point, but we condensed it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were they involved in the movie? Gavin and Billy were involved in the movie.

That's why I was asking about the title sequence. So did you spend time with these guys? Yeah, Gavin at first, more so, because Billy was weirdly affiliated with a different film that was going to be about their journey, but from his point of view more. And then that film never happened, unfortunately, and Billy came on to ears late. But Gavin was really involved with the music. What we realized when we got the rights, the music from Gavin, who held all the rights, back then, only 20-odd years ago, you know, you were releasing hip-hop tracks.

You were sampling, sampling, sampling, building the backing track, and then you were putting it out there. And you kind of went like, that's a bit of sting, that's a bit of so-and-so, that's a bit of Aretha Franklin, whatever. And nobody cared. Now people care. Now people were like that. So we got the rights to all the music and then realized we couldn't use any of the music. Because it had millions of dollars with the samples in it. Exactly.

So we had to rebuild everything from the ground up to sound exactly the same but have no samples in. Yes. Which was not. So he was really involved in that along with our amazing music supervisor and music editor. and then Billy, when he came on board, we found ourselves needing some, there was like some freestyle rap moments in it, they're meant to be like freestyle rap moments.

And our writers, Archie and Elaine, who are brilliant, they ain't rappers. So they were like doing their version of something to be fair to them. Like, they even held their hands up and were like, you're going to need to get somebody

from the culture to do this. So we got in touch with Billy and he was like, what do you want it to feel like, what do you want to be talking about? Where's the character at this point? And I'd just give him a whole list of what I thought it could be. And he gave me like 20 things back in like 20 minutes. Wow.

And it was amazing. And so his, off the cuff kind of threw it out in about half an hour, freestyles open and close the movie. That's awesome. I'm assuming they both must look back on that and go like, what an incredible, wonderful chapter.

I'm so glad that was part of our life. I think so. I mean, look, I think it was a really complex time for... During the fallout. For Gavin. Yeah.

And, you know, as much as I was really keen to exploit the opportunities that this journey presented me as a filmmaker, which was to make a really propulsive momentum-driven entertaining mainstream movie that's funny and all that. There's a guy in it who almost pays the ultimate price because of the effect it has in his mental health.

You're trying to weigh that up and also not be exploitative of the guy's experience, honour it and explore it but not exploit it in a titillating fashion. And that makes fun of it. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And also even for Billy,

although things never got quite as mortal for him, he felt more certain in who he was going into it. So he was more certain when it was time to leave. But we're also sure. showing him and who's now still married to Mary and his three kids were showing him making some pretty dodgy decisions at the time

as well and his kids had got to watch that and all that. I was very aware of all that. I was really grateful to Gavin and Billy for coming with us and trusting me to handle those moments sensitively and not just expose them sort of titillatingly. In a cartoonish way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, my last question for you is

you were premiering this movie at the Toronto Film Festival. Yes. And you got belted by a Canadian? He told me he was from Mexico. Oh, okay. What do you mean belted? You got punched at a bar. Yeah, I was sitting like this. I was sitting at the bar. Bar, bars here and I'm sitting,

producer on this side, producer on this side. We've done like six days selling the hell out of our film. I'm exhausted and it's the end. We're just going to have a little roundup. Well done, guys. We did it. And somebody just cold cocks me in the back of the head. Oh, my God. That, that much of a son. And I looked at, and I was producer Danny and John is what I was like,

and I was looking at them kind of laugh. I was really sore, but I was like, What the fuck? Yeah. And then I looked over there, I saw the guy storm and he'd been getting thrown out because he was really drunk and doing something weird around the corner. We'd never laid eyes on each other. He just randomly smacked a dude. And so I immediately kind of went from zero to 90 and went after him.

Sure. And then the two producers, they came after me and they put their hands to me. The minute they put their hands of me, I was like, I need to get in a plane, I need to get back to my wife and kids. If I end up like by the police or something, this is there, and I immediately went from 90 to like zero. But by this point, the guy turned round and he just sees me getting held back.

So that then makes him coming. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm getting held back even though I'm not looking for a fight anymore. I'm never going like that hot to cold in my life that quick. And he's like coming at me and he's getting held back. And then he starts to do this thing that I don't know if you've ever experienced when you're in a fight. You used to happen all the time when I was a kid. When you're squaring up to somebody or somebody's like coming at you just before

they throw a punch, whatever, they're telling you where they're from. You know what I mean? I'm from Mexico, he goes. And I was like, what the fuck? And I almost went, I'm fucking drum chapel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do we feel the need to get our zip code and postal? Because you're trying to establish you're bona fide.

You're trying to intimidate the person into backing down because that would be preferred. It's like, you know, Game of Thrones are like, for fucking West Arras. It's like, many people say, for North Cumbria. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, we're still doing it. For drum chapel. Yeah, yeah. It's so.

It's like an honor thing. I says I'm from Beverly Hills versus I'm from Baltimore. These are relevant details. Yes. Nobody goes like, I'm from Chipping Norton. Yeah, yeah. All things equal, I would prefer to fight the guy from Beverly Hills than the front of Baltimore. Look, it was a whole lot of something and nothing.

I've said as well, if I saw that guy, I'm 100% sure he'd be an all right guy. 90% sure. The reverse engineering I would have done was like, people knew you were there. The dude knew there was a hot shot there. He didn't like that someone was getting a lot of attention. Do you think it was fully random? Or do you think it might have had something to do with the fact that you're in movies? I think it was fully random.

From the way that the bar staff were talking to me, they didn't even think he could see properly at that point. Yeah, he's just swinging. The bar staff said he thought he was in the bathroom and he was urinating in the bar. Round the corner. But he was so far around the other side of the bar that we hadn't even laid eyes in each other. Some people will say that they have a punchable face, but you could say you have a punchable back your head.

Like, you probably never even occurred to you. that you're like maybe an inviting back of your head. I've had some pretty offensive haircuts. I'm desperately in need of a haircut right now. Oh, I cut hair. Oh, that's fair. You can't hear fantastic? You ever had this thing as an actor where they're like,

could you just keep growing your hair? You just keep growing up that. And then the movie keeps going like that. And you're like, this is not a haircut. This is just grown out of hair. This is bad. So yeah, I need a haircut. There's no shape to this.

There's not. I've got to premiere of film and I don't have a haircut. Well, James, it's been a delight to meet you. I've thoroughly enjoyed your movie. Thank you. What an incredible first time out. directing. It's called California Schemean, and it's out right now. Thank you, Dax. Thank you so much to pedig.

Yeah, I feel like this is so full circle for me. Yeah, it is. To have hated you, and admired you, and worshipped you, and now to say it, talk with you. That is wild that story, my mind. I hated this guy James McAvoy. Who is James McAvoy? I'm so glad that you got to see Last King of Scotland without knowing that that was the guy. Yes. Because that might askewed your opinion of my performance.

I hope I'm more objective than that, but no, it probably would have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, be well. Everyone's the California scheming. It's October 9th. Go see it. He is an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. They got Monica's here.

She's got to let him have the facts. Why do you think we need two words, excuse yourself or recuse yourself? Yeah. Don't they mean the same thing if you have some conflict of legal, issues you have to recrude. What you would just say as if you excuse yourself from the proceedings. Recuse must have been an old word. An old time illegal.

Latin. Yeah, it's more official duty you recuse yourself from. And then excuse is the more layman's term. You know, I keep trying to add words to my vocabulary. I don't know if you, are you actively tried to still? I do. I should. I should.

I know that you do. Because you'll say, well, you just say words that I know you've never said. Well, the other day I used decamped, I think, successfully. And I was so delighted because I've like heard that term and I've read it a few times. And I just heard it coming out of my mouth. We need to decamp to this location. Oh, wow. Yeah, you were present.

That means it must have come out very organically. You don't even remember. Or maybe I don't even think of the word decamp. I don't. I don't think of that word. It's a weird word. Where were we decamping? Well, it was like someone was telling a story, and I said, so you had to decamp to blank.

Oh. You weren't listening, maybe, at that moment is all so likely. Okay. Okay. So decamp is new. What else is new? Well, we were taught by an armed cherry in an interview, Edenic. I love that word, and I've found that it's applicable pretty often to say Edenic.

Yeah. Yeah, I like that one. You do use new words. I think you use a new word today, I heard. Oh. I don't remember what it was. Okay. But I was like, hmm.

That's clunky. No, it wasn't clunky, but I was like, that's new and that's going to be. I'm going to start hearing this come out of this mouth a bit. This is, you know, this is the cost of being around each other so much. The cost and the benefit. Like you really, if I start saying a new word, you'll know. You will know because you're used to the way I speak. If you see me once a year, you might assume I use the word.

word all the time. Yeah. Or even sparingly, but not like, oh, that's the first time he's trying it out. Right. You know, because you love, now you love, love. Oh, here's one. Let's see if I know about it. Well, we were taught it here, prima facie. We were taught it by Stephen Dubner. And we discussed it in the episode. He said it and it was like, oh, wow. Oh, I like that. I'm going to start using that. And when you say I'm going to to start using that, you mean it. I mean it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do love prima facie. Yeah, it's a good word. Yeah. I was defending myself about prima facie in my head laying in bed. What do you mean?

Well, I'm like, some of these words, they're identical to other words that are more colloquial or more well-known. So then do you come across as trying to be snobby or seemingly? But I was like, no, so often these words, they're just a little bit different. And then I was even thinking, so prima facie is on the surface. Yes, it is. So minimally, it's more efficient. It's just two words as opposed to three. This is twisting yourself into a pretzel when you just like it. Because I lay in bed and I hear criticisms from my hometown.

Yeah, that's what you're hearing. That's right. And I defend myself against these criticisms from my hometown a lot of the day. Yeah. It's a big preoccupation of mine. It's funny because maybe in this very specific case for some reason we're, we're reversed, I don't know why. But I, because I don't care if people think I'm snobby.

Right. But I do, when I notice people using 10 cent, what is it? Yeah, 20 cent words. 20 cent words, quarter, 25 cent words or whatever. I'm always like, it doesn't make me think anything bad, but it does pull me out for a second. Okay, yeah, yeah. And so I don't really do that in. I don't think I use 25 cent words.

I think I was heavily rewarded in my teenage years for having a big vocabulary. But me too. Because I liked older girls. And I would be on the phone all the time with older girls just talking for hours. And they would say that they like that about me. Yeah. I like people who have strong vocabularies. And I think I used, I think I'm going in the opposite direction.

And I think I used to have. It's healthy, I think. I am dumbing down. Yeah. You're getting real simple. That's not good. That's not good. I also think, again, I think it's genetic.

Well, how would we know? Because my mother was horny for words. Still is. She's the only one left in my life. I'll say something. And she'll go, oh, I love that word. What does that mean? Like, she still gets peaked when she hears a new word.

And I certainly have it. And Lincoln has it tremendously. She is collecting words as fast as she can. So I'm inclined to think there's some genetic component. Like, it's just, it's very curious that the three of us are. But what's the, why have I changed? Why are you sliding away from that? Yeah, because I used to, maybe it's just I really, really, I, maybe I used to do that because

I wanted to sound smart. And now I really don't care about that. That's likely. If I gave it a percentage, I would say, I was only really 25% motivated out of sounding smart. I love, I love, like, I just love words. And I love having to say them in my mind a bunch of times before I feel confident enough to say them out, wow. I don't know why.

I just, I think there's a genuine love. I don't do any flash cards. Did I get you some for your birthday? Stack a flash cards. I was, last time I was home, I saw these old SAT flash cards. They made me laugh. They brought me back to a time. You had saved them.

Oh, I saved everything. You saved every damn thing. Why not? You should see my parents' basement. It is horrifying. Well, I've been on many a Zoom call with you in that basement. Oh, yeah. And I've seen the stack, the shelves of your belongings.

No, those are my mom's pots and pans, her extra pots and pans, her second location. That she will never ever pull out and use. No, she uses. She uses them all the time. She doesn't have space in the kitchen floor. Oh, okay. So she does that. But there's another room that has all the old stuff.

And I don't know what happened. Some tornado went through there. And it's a full disaster. I think it was my brother. Or in all the collections looking for something. Yeah. Okay. But you'll find really fun treats in there.

Yeah. Old Beanie baby. Well, yeah, remember I found Valentino? Yeah, it's fun to go look through your youth. I am so excited. This is the most excited I've been in a while. I'm like counting down the minutes. So you're.

Because I'm meeting Tyrell and Weekly. Yes. In just days. In Las Vegas. I am so excited like it's my first time going to Las Vegas. That's fun. What do you think about me wearing shorts to a Metallica concert? I'm like struggling with this for some reason.

What kind? It's too hot. Right. And there'll be a lot of walking. I think it's fine. To wear shorts to a concert. It's at the sphere, right? Yeah.

I think so. Yeah, I don't know why I am questioning. Yeah. It's not like, is there like a step and repeat or something? Well, we are going to a steakhouse beforehand. They might not want me in shorts. That might be. But in Vegas, do you think they have rules?

I also think anything goes in Vegas. That's what they say. Well, they say everything stays in Vegas. I don't know about everything goes. But can you, what kind of shorts are? Gene shorts? The ones I wear every day. You see me.

And I might have three different pair of Marine. layer dressy pants that I've cut off. Shorts are totally fine for Metallica. Okay. All right. And what about the Steakhouse beforehand? That might be more questionable. Okay.

Maybe I'll buy a pair of disposable pants. Why don't you look on the website? It'll say if there's a dress code. You could probably call them too. I think it's easier to just look on the website, but. I don't know. Where are they going to bury that info? If there's a dress code, it would definitely be on the website.

Okay. But they do have to expect people are, like, Like, it's 100. They're coming off of, I guess, a golf course people go to steakhouses after a golf course. Like, yeah, I think in Vegas, I think it's fine. Shirtless? No. Okay, that's absolutely not.

Draw the line there. Maybe at the concert, though. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder what the age range will be at the concert. Yeah, I do too. I'm presuming a bunch of old guys like Aaron and Aaron and I, but you never know. Like, now the Smiths, they're huge fan.

as young Latinos. The Smiths? Yes. In California, there's this huge subculture of Latinos and Latinos that are super into the Smiths. Cool. But what I'm aware of is how different now. Like when I was a kid, Metallica came to Pine Knob in Detroit with the cult. Aaron went.

We had a friend whose older sister took those two. And I was like so jealous that I didn't get to go. But also I was so scared to go to that concert, as was Aaron. We were just talking about the other day. He went. And yeah, there was like 20 or 30 fights he saw, and it's a bunch of aggressive dudes with long hair and drunk. And so it's just funny now, like,

I'm going to see Metallic at the sphere. And I think, oh, it's going to be a quite lovely evening with a bunch of normal people because we've all aged out of that craziness. It's wild how differently I feel about this concert in previous ones. Are you going to buy a T-shirt? Do they sell them? There's nothing in life I want other than, in the safety of my children that's worth me standing in an hour long line. In fact, you know,

I did when I went to Sabrina Carverner. I stood in a half hour line, but for Delta. I know, but it's like, it is for them because one day that will be a vintage shirt. Sure. And it might even for their, their kids, like, that's a good shirt to have. I mean, I'll also be with Aaron and Aaron. They're going to have a vote in whether or not we stay in the line. But I also might just say like, hey, see you at the seats. Yeah. You know? See at the seats.

I'm going to go get some vintage shirts. See at the seats. That's my new saying. That's when you're saying. That's when you motto. See at the seats. Okay. I'm just wondering if you get in line if I want you to get me one too.

Oh, wow. Okay. So this was ultimately maybe about. Thinking about the vintage shirt. I can't imagine I cannot get the shirt that's for sale there on the internet. That feels impossible. No, sometimes they have ones. You can only get there.

And you can ask, which ones can I only. get here. Yeah. They have some very famous shirts, Metallica. See? Do you know about metal up your ass? No. Well, there's a song,

Metal Up Your Ass, very early on. Okay. And the iconography on the shirt was a toilet bowl with a sword coming out of it. Okay. Yeah. That's pretty extreme. That is. Yeah.

Metal up your ass. I mean. Better than snakes up your ass, right? Yeah. And it's a ding, ding, ding. to Armchair Anonymous for an object's prompt. Right. People have metal up there.

They do. And it gets stuck. This is remind. There it is. Wow. That's the T. Did you get that T? 30.

I don't know. I'm just throwing out of it. You can get it for $16 on eBay right now. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Aaron had that shirt. As you can imagine, the vice principal of our school did not appreciate anyone

wearing that shirt to school. Wait, you said 16? Yeah. Oh, no. I mean, it looks like a remake, though, so. Oh, it's a fake-down. Yeah, it doesn't even look. There's an ad, one on Etsy for 300 that looks authentic.

Okay, that's what I'm talking about. That might be in a ridge. Yeah, that would be in a ridge. Okay, nice and thin. Cheesecloppy. Oh, I hope it's thin. I love teas. I love thin teas.

I love vintage teas. You love Liberties. I do. Yeah. What do you think about I healed up a shot? Shockingly fast. No, yesterday I was in an absolute mass. Oh, this is going to be confusing shit.

Okay. Because the episode comes on on Monday. This episode comes out on Monday, but Wednesday's episode we did yesterday. I'll just tell people. Wednesday's fact check, we did yesterday. Oh, so this will be a reverse. This is a reverse back. Oh.

So on Wednesday, you'll see Dax's face is all scarred up. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tremendously so. To be fair, you are right that within 24 hours. I was almost excited for today's episode. I was assuming I would have as many scabs all over my forehead and cheeks and nose.

To see if our guests today was saying things, I really wanted to be able to use my whole metal grinder thing. Yeah, which they don't know about yet. Yeah, they don't know about yet. Anyways, but then I woke up this morning into my dismay, not a new word. I saw that I had very little scabbages. Yeah, in 24 hours, you really shut a lot of those scabs. I think that's a testament to how good I am at the Hifurkator 2000.

I don't think that's it. But I asked, it's rare that I request a Christmas present. Come, come Christmas. I'm like, I don't know. Just forget about me. Okay. But I did request that Kristen make me a Hifurkater 2000 T-shirt. I want Hifurcator 2000 written and then I want an image of the device.

Okay. Kind of like that metallurgical. Yes. I don't like metal up your ass. So yeah, that's, that request has been made. Okay. That sounds nice. Yeah. Because I got new air conditioners that are finally the right size for my house. You're still dealing with that itchy ear. Have you tried putting any hydro hydrochortazone in your ear? No. Why not? Do you think that's good? Of course. Do you think it might be bad for my hearing? No, that's what I'm putting not. You're not going to put it on your eardrum. I need to go deep. Okay, well, let's start like midway or maybe. I feel crazy with this ear thing. You need to definitely put some hydrochortizone. Okay. Yeah. It's making me feel.

I even have the perfect thing. Swab? No, I have anointment that was given to me specifically for this. Oh, really? Okay. Maybe, yeah. I'll try. Good better shot.

Because I, I feel. For bug infestating. For bugs. For bug. It's all raid. Have you heard of it? Radio cleaner. I'm ready to just spray some.

raid right in there. You go straight on a Q-tip and then. Yeah. Yeah. Well, people haven't heard yet. People haven't, no, we've heard that, but people haven't heard yet that what I learned is that itchy ear canals, also horrible phrase, itchy ear canals. Also sounds like a band. Yeah. Itchy ear canals are a sign of perimenopause. And so I hate that reality mixed with, this is like, I wake up in the night and I have to itch. That's rough. We've got to put some hydrocosone in there. Okay. And I just have never heard of it. Just for good measure. Get the hyphricator in there.

Zap, zap, zap. Once you have scabs in there, that'll distract you from the itching. Yeah, probably. A lot of people want me to tell you that the guy you're upset with betraying his friend, who I think is hot. Yeah. Rob R. Rob R. That he bought her a Birken bag. I do know this. People really wanted me to let you know. And that's just a testament to his hotness. Like, people are defending him because he's hot.

Oh, they're saying, like, it's actually fine. Yeah, like, remember when we had on, this was a fun thing to observe. When we had on Scott Eastwood, and he told his story about working with Shia Labouf, that he didn't. LaBeef. LeBeefe, that he didn't like. The amount of people that were outraged, someone had anything negative to say about Shia was noticeable. Wait, wait, wait. When we had Scott Eastwood on, people were upset.

Because the clip had to do with this dust up he had with Shaya on the tank movie. Uh-huh. And people were coming out in droves to defend Shia and mad at Scott. As if he was reporting like his opinion, he was just reporting these facts of what happened. A story he was involved in. Yes, right. And so when I saw this like really passionate thing, I was like, oh man, the power of having a crush on someone is so strong. Yeah.

You know, because I adore Shia. as an actor. I think he is unbelievably talented. Yeah, he is. I also deeply admire his level of honesty I've seen him have in public. Also, he's beating up guys and saying he's a homophob and has hit his girlfriend. So it's like, it's very interesting to see these women come out in such droves to defend him. I think he's an incredible actor. I think if you're hitting women to like that that is a problem. Or not like that, obviously, but in some ways you are. You are. You're endorsing a person that does that. I'm drawing the line there.

Yeah, but it was a real unabashed. So this thing with Rob, mirrored that. It was so important people knew. No, he is a good guy. And that's just the power of being cute. That was my whole point of that whole story. It's like, wow, what a handsome white man can get away with is that everyone, this entire house just thinks he's perfect and good and nice.

Yeah. And I'm sure he's nice, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like that he could never be a traitor because he's hot. Because he's enjoyable to look at. Yeah, that is upsetting. I did know that he got more a Birkenbag and or said he was going to. Did that help alleviate your anger towards him?

I mean, I'm glad he did that. Yeah. That's nice. How much did he win on this show? I think you win like. $250,000. And then how much is a Birken bag cost? Range.

I hope he got her a nice one. I hope he got her a $30,000 one. So they can be $30,000? $16,000 apparently was the bag. Was the one he got her? Yeah, $212,800. Okay. So of that, he got $110.

Maybe he bought her a $16,000 bag. He gave her basically 15% of his wedding. No, that doesn't matter. To me, it's not about that. See, that's the thing. They're trying to be like, no, but he got her a burkingback. So it's fine. It's not fine to pinky promise her and humiliate her.

I mean, that's really, it is humiliating. It's humility. That's where you're projecting a little bit, maybe. No, she said, she said, like, it was really hard to watch. I really kind of couldn't watch it. Projecting is not the right word. You were easily able to imagine yourself being made a full. Oh, I could empathize, of course.

I was like, and that doesn't get fixed by a burden. And so, like, that doesn't even bother me because I can't even imagine being made a fool by him, you know? Well, he could. Yeah, of course he could do that. You might believe him. Well, his superpowers wouldn't be powerful on me. They were. They were powerful on every person.

I don't trust anyone good looking. Well, you would have trusted Rob R. I don't know how he did that, but every person trusted him. It is funny, though, to have people mad at you for entering a game, which we already know what the goal of the game is, and then he did well and won. And to be mad at a winner is counter. I don't think you should have Pinky promised. Oh. Now you like him.

No. Okay, first of all, I mean, look, I like Rob Rha because he's hot. Yeah. And he is seemingly nice. And I like that he got her the Birkin. But look at, she's wearing a t-shirt that says, I'm dumb question mark. Because I guess it's like, I'm dumb. but I'm not because I got this burkin out of it.

I'm dumb. Like, you think I'm dumb? I'm holding the burking back. Yeah. I don't know what her intention is with that shirt. I think that's what it is. But really, then it's like, this is upsetting. See, she lives with this, like, now she lives with this contention that she's dumb.

But you don't think she's dumb, do you just think she trusted a handsome man. So maybe everyone thinks so. See, okay, this is a deep, right? Everyone trusted Rob R because I don't know why. I wasn't there. Part of it, I do believe, is his handsomeness mixed with his kindness. I think he was kind to everyone. And I think he, and he said this, and I, this is not his fault.

This is everyone else's fault. But he said, people just think I'm a dumb guy from Alabama. Right. And then another guy was like, I don't think that. I think you're really not. Whatever. That was a sweet exchange. But I do think some people might think that.

They might think like, well, he wouldn't really be able to get one over on us. Yes. So that's on everybody else. They deserve that. They do deserve that if they believe that. But Mora and Rob R had a special connection and very flirty. Were they fucking, do you think? So they say no.

Okay. They say no. And I can't. I got to take it at face value. But you felt like maybe they were fucking. I feel like they had an intimacy. Whether or not it was fucking, they definitely did have an intimacy. She felt like she had this special.

I guess I am putting words on her mouth a little bit. But not really. She says on the show, like, Rob and I, you know, they're best friends who might fuck and kiss and cuddle. Hold each other. And snuggle. Sear into each other's eyes. Yeah, and like, you can tell she felt like, no, I know him. She would say, like, there's no way.

I would know. I was sleeping with him last night. I know him. And that's no. That's bad. What I'm saying is she's also got to acknowledge she's in a game. She probably thinks the fucking part is not connected that he's not, that if he. Well, I don't think he, I think he would love to fuck her whether he's in a game or not.

Yeah, but he needs to be. That's not. If you are a traitor, that's not nice. Well, what's not nice is intentionally fawking her to gain her trust to win a game. Not good. But you're trying to win a game. That's one thing. Another thing is you're attracted to this woman in the house and you guys start hooking up.

Yeah, you can't. You have to be kind enough to be aware of what that means for the other person. That in intimacy, whether, compartmentalized. Maybe it is for these him hot men. Okay. Maybe they can compartmentalize like, oh, this part is just like, I'm trying to win the game. She's trying to win the game. We're all trying to win the game. And we're sleeping together. No. No. You don't think that's not nice. That's not nice. It's not nice. So would it be nicer if she was like, please sleep with me? He's like, no. She, no. What should say?

You think that's nice? The girl says, please sleep with me. I think he could. No, thank you. I'm not interested. Stop. That's not what he would say. What would he say?

He would say, I don't think it's ethical for me to do that in this game. Oh, so you're the wolf? Huh? So the only reason it wouldn't be ethical is if you weren't, you, you'd be exposing the fact that he's the wolf. No, we're here for two weeks. I don't know, you don't know you. I this isn't it wouldn't be fair to you. But it could only be unethical if you were the traitor.

No, it could just be like. Because if you're just both, what are the other people called? Losers? Trader and what? No, traitors and. Faithfuls. Thank you. Faithfuls.

Two faithfuls should be free to fuck, right? Yeah. Yeah. So if he says no, he's kind of blowing up his spot. But he doesn't have to. He could just be like, I have a girlfriend. Just lie. God, okay.

He's lying throughout this entire game. Of course it's prefer. Of course it's prefer. If you're the girl and you've just had sex. Okay, again, I don't know if they've had sex. So we really haven't. But really quick, what if you found out that she's glad they had sex? Would that change things for you?

That she doesn't feel betrayed by that aspect of it. Then sure. Yeah, then all gruelly, right? But that's also part of why the bottom fell out so hard for her, where she was like, like, could not. She's sleeping with the enemy. She doesn't know if she can trust herself anymore. Right. This is a very upsetting thing for her, Mora.

Yeah. She's now on dancing with the stars. Hold on. I say this without ever having seen one frame of the show. So I, this is a theoretical question. I don't know her at all. Neither. But if she's learned she can't trust herself, that's a good thing to learn.

Like, I need to be a little more savvy. No. No. Because someone manipulated her. She can't trust herself. That's not fair. He manipulated her. He manipulated everyone, which is fine, right?

That's the game. That's the game. Okay. But with her specifically, because of this intimacy that was built, that is a step too far, I believe. Okay. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. Yeah, this is a common... I'm going to leave it.

I'm going to leave it. I want you to imagine it as Delta. Yeah. As a father of two daughters, I would say, just like you have to evaluate whether the person you're about to get in a car with and Uber is crazy or not, you have to evaluate people. That's part of life. You have to be realistic about people. And if not, if you're wanting the world to change and the world to be, everyone's got perfect intentions,

I'm here to say that's not going to happen. So your only choice in life is to be discerning. You have to be discern. I had to be discerning about the people I dated. women have to be discerning about who they date. That's also true. I don't think you can say that you're powerless over the ways of manipulation. I think that's like, then what are you also going to give your credit card number to somebody

that's trustworthy? Like there's all these areas and realms where we all realize we have to be discerning. And I think in love you have to be discerning too. Yeah. And you can expect that people who you grow to care about or, have intimacy with or tell you they care about you, that you should, you can believe them. You shouldn't, you should not have your guard up for your entire life.

That's bad. I think you have to have a reasonable size fence, not to the sky, but it has to be realistic. You know, I had a friend who met a guy who was on a TV show, who was gorgeous and rich and young, and within a week of dating, he was saying he wanted to have a baby with her. And I said, hey, I'm waving my hand over here. That's crazy and not normal.

That's not how it works. You may have found the one person that's how it's going to work. But like, I'm here to say that's crazy. No guy in that situation is trying to have a baby with somebody who's known for two weeks. And that person did not want to hear that at all. Okay. And then that person was later revealed to be like an addict and all this. There was a lot of other stuff going on.

Yes. But my point is, no, it was on her to be realistic about that. No. No. It's on him to not lie to her. Well, yes, absolutely. Well, first of all, I don't even think he was lying. He was an addict thinking this life raft had just appeared.

And he was going to pull that to save him from this opiate addiction. So I think he might have been dead sincere at that moment that he thought this is, the solution. This is my way out of this and my way forward in life. But. Well, I know who you're talking about. And also this person was very vulnerable to hearing that. This person who was told that.

But here's my overall thought is like, is the lesson to be learned from that, that she shouldn't be more realistic about things going forward and that she should just hope that no other, she doesn't mean another person who's trying to pull themselves out of something. Like, ultimately, it's, it's on her to choose her partners. It is, but you also have to take what people are saying in. Yeah, and evaluate it. You can't just be like in a vacuum in a relationship. Part of it is what's going on between the two people.

You have to be able to assess if someone has love addicty behavior. That's not, you have to. unless you want to be in an endless cycle of falling in love with people who are just love addicts. I know, but you're not giving any responsibility to the love addict who's causing wreckage. No, I am. Okay, I just want to hear that part. Yes, any guy who's telling a woman that he loves her and he doesn't love her so that he can have sex is a piece of shit. Yes, okay.

Thank you. Yes. But I'm not raising those boys. I have two daughters, and it would be my goal and my desire that they are, realistic about assessing behavior. Like, well, this is very unconventional that a dude wants to get married in a week, that a dude's telling me he loves me in two weeks. You might be swept up in the emotions, but you do have to go like, well, this is abnormal

someone saying, I love you in two weeks. That's a very short amount of time to determine whether you love. So like. But also some people do that and they get married and they're in love for the rest of their lives. I think it's a very low percentage. Yes, but it happens. So to be like, I don't know.

I don't know. It's, it's, what I'm saying is, one sounds very victimy and that you're just going to endlessly be a victim. If you're not willing to say, no, I got to get realistic about the real behavior of people. And I can see this dude's never been with someone for more than a year. Let's take immediately, let's take that in account. You're 30 years old. You're meeting a guy who's telling you he loves you in two weeks.

He's never been with something for more than a year. That is relevant information that you are either choosing to ignore or not savvy enough. But once it happens once, I think anyone who wants to protect themselves should go like, oh, I've got to be on the lookout for this pattern. I'm meeting a four-year-old dude who's never had a relationship for more than two years. And he's telling me he loves me in 10 days. Pretty big red flags. Sure. You can be aware of abnormalities and, like, you can have awareness.

But I don't think when someone lies to you, it's not your fault. It's not your fault when someone lies to you. It's just not. It's not your fault. It's your responsibility. It's just like addiction. It's like it's not my fault. I'm an addict.

It is my responsibility. So it's like it's not your fault that guys are out there trying to lie to you. It's your responsibility, I guess, moving forward. If you don't want to be hurt all the time. To be aware. But it is not. Yeah. Yeah.

Anyway, Rob R. It's hot. Okay. Some facts. For another hot person, James McEwan, James McAvoy. Oh, yes, yes. James McAvoy.

As I said in the episode, he's Callie's first, not maybe not first, but biggest, deepest celebrity crush. Mr. Tumnus is the fawn. Specifically, Mr. Tumnus is the fawn. Yeah. And will you ask her right now if in her fantasies about him at that time, she would be hooking up with an animal? I don't think she's comfortable with me asking that. And I think the answer is now. Maybe can I ask her?

She's probably even less. Like, did you want in your fantasy him to be half animal half person or all James McAvoy? I think she wanted all James McAvoy. Can we ask her? She's going to be mad. She's pretty private. Just say I'm asking. She's at work.

Oh, wow. At Netflix. We're in the middle of an important meeting. She's running out. She knew it was coming. I'll get back to you on this. Okay, great. But I have a strong, I'm sure I asked back then because I was very, the story.

The story, Hara and I were at the movie theater. We left. She was just kerfuffled, you know, she was kerplumped. What's it? Veclempt. Okay. Yeah, Verclim. She's a lot of those things, you know.

And she was obsessed with Mr. It makes me quickly go through my memory and try to see if there was any moment I wanted to have sex with a half human, a creature. I've never had that. I did desperately, I would have loved to have had sex. text with the Navi. Oh, you did want to? Absolutely.

Right. I can't connect my tail with theirs. Right. They were on two feet, though, right? Yeah, yeah. They were bipedal. Yeah. But they were big blue creatures, but.

That feels, they feel more human. I would have loved to have been with her. I think a lot of people wanted that because, like, Zoe Saldon is so beautiful. But it's not her. It's just her voice. But the haunches of the creature were just extraordinary. and then the face was pretty. It was definitely not human, but it was beautiful.

But it kind of had a human-like face. So athletic. What was it, Avatar? Well, there's her, right? So that's not a human, for sure. You're making no mistake, those ears popping out at the way up the top. The ears, but the lips are human. Yeah, the lips are good to go.

The eyes are incredible. The nose is kind of human. It looks like a lion's. Yeah, but someone's nose could look like that. Yeah, they might get it fixed, but yeah. No. I think this is a beautiful human. Well, it's not humans.

It's a knob. I know, but I'm just saying I think this is way more human. Yeah, I would love to make love to her. Okay. Yeah, we get it. Do you have a full body shot, Rob? Oh, Jesus. Yeah.

That's also a human body. Well, they're way big, though. Remember when the humans are actually with them, they're so much bigger. This is not the same as Mr. Tumnus. I'm sorry, but can you pull up Mr. Tumness? Okay. That's a silly name, too. I know.

The whole thing, I was so, so, I was so, I was so confused, which I grew, I grew to, um, respect. You know, I grew to respect her love for Mr. Tumnus, but at first I was judgmental. Yeah. First stop is sometimes judgment. Yeah. And then intrigue. And then at what, yeah, at some point I saw him in something else. You get curious.

That's what they say. That's the antidote to judgment is curiosity. Yeah. Once you start going like, oh, well, tell me why. What is it? Is his haunches? Well, it's like, I do think it's giving furry or, you know, like you're into animal sex. And I don't condone that.

Oh, he actually's on two feet, too. He's pan. Yeah, he's fine. He's goat-like. In my head, he had four legs. Ugh, God. Oh, wow. She wanted good for her.

He's got crazy years, too. Crazy nose. He's wearing prosthetics. This is what, this is not how I remember Mr. Tumness. Wow. Are you sure that's Mr. Tumness?

Oh my. Oh. Oh, yeah. It was more this. It was more this, which still though, but you can see more of his body. This is making sense.

The human skin. You can see his human skin and human torso. I think now that I've seen an image of Mr. Tumness, I don't need to ask her the question. I already know the answer. Because he is all lower half. I mean, he's leading with... No, like, I think she liked this.

I do. I think she liked that part. Okay. So it's clear to you and it's clear to me. I know her! You do. I know you do. Okay.

I know what she likes. She likes human bodies. You're only basing that on her past. Lovers. She hasn't had as an option half a goat. No, because you know what I'm actually... She wanted to feel the... goat fear on her leg as he was like pumping away like only a goat can do. God, this is why she

doesn't want me to talk about her on the show. But I can actually now, if I'm taking just the torso, Mm-hmm. You're in? I like it. What about the legs? I don't like the legs. Okay. You'll lose me at the legs. Okay. You got to wonder if that creature has a human penis or a goat penis. You got to wonder. I think it's a very obvious question. I think it's a goat. Because if the bottom half is goat. Yeah, everything from the waist down is goat. But then why only two legs?

They should have made him on four legs. I think Pan was on two. I think he was bipedal. Who's Pan? Pan is the Greek god of like, well, music, he played the flute. Oh, but merriment and temptation. He's very sexual, a siren towards the debauchery. Yeah, so he's, that's how he's doing.

I don't know. I see if he's got four in back, too. He's got two prominent ones up front. He's crossed his legs. But in back, I'm seeing two little tiny legs. They snuck in there. Leaning against the wall. I don't think those are, are those legs? Yeah, look at the hooves. They match perfectly. It does, they're so tiny and disproportionate. Huh. That they might dangle behind him when he's bipedal. Wait, I thought, I thought, there he is. He doesn't have four. He's just got the two. I thought Pan was God of the Woods. He was in the woods. Okay, I think because there's a book I was really into called God of the Woods.

I think he would play his flute and people would get really horny. It was like a hypnotic flute. That was his power. He started tooting on that thing and people would be like, let's do stuff with goats. He was the god of shepherds and flocks, wild nature, especially of mountain and forest wild. So I think also, yeah, God of the Woods. I think he's like appealing to man's naturalistic, animalistic side. Well, and the word panic comes from that.

It does. I learned that in my book. Okay. Great goats of the 18th century? He's standing upright, though. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he's bipedal. Okay.

Wow. In Harry Potter, the centars are on four. Mm-hmm. So I think that's what's in my head. You're conflating. Yeah, I'm conflating. Okay. Give Rob a shout out for doing these facts real time. Yes, Rob did the facts real time.

We just finished this interview. You just left seconds ago. Rob took on the facts today. Empire Awards for Filth when he met Margot Robbie. It says in 2014, James won Best Actor for Philth. Defeating Leonardo DiCaprio for Wolf of Wall Street and Tom Hanks, Captain Phil. He wasn't sure what movie he was there for. It was Phil.

Yes. Can you imagine having won so many awards you can't remember. Do you automatically get the suffix junior added to your name if your parent has the same name? No. Oh. Junior suffix is not added automatically to a name. it must be requested and recorded explicitly on the birth certificate. Oh, okay.

That kind of makes sense. Yeah, I don't think my brother doesn't have that. Right. My brother is a junior. Right. And people did call Dave Senior and Dave Jr. Right. But I don't think it's anywhere in writing.

Do you think that's going out of fad? Yeah. Like men love to name their firstborns, their own name. I would have never allowed if we had a boy for him to be named Dax. Yeah. But I would have been open to. a girl named Axe. Interesting.

Yeah, I mean, women never pass on there. There's no girl, you're going to lose your last name anyways. Even more reason to have the first name get passed. That's why we gave the girls' bell as a middle name. They can't ever lose it. Right. But it's like, I'm saying no one's like Kristen.

You're not having a kid Kristen. Right. Which is weird. Yeah, there's no girl juniors that I know about. I'm going to make one. Monica Lily Padman. It feels ego maniacal, doesn't it? It does.

That's what I'm saying. The culture's changed. It does, but no one thinks that, I don't think people think that about boys. I don't think like, oh, it's ego maniacal to name you after your dad. Well, I think today it would be. Like in L.A., I think it'd be a bad look for a dad if he had a junior. A little bit. But in the past, you won't even think anything of it.

It was almost standard. I don't know. Did James play the Jeremy Allen White character in Shameless? No. James played Steve McBrose. ride in the original UK shameless Fiona's boyfriend. His American counterpart is Jimmy Lishman, played by Justin Chattwin. Love Justin.

He was in Chips. He's a phenomenal guy. Oh, Justin. Yeah, he's gorgeous. Oh, yeah. He's super into motorcycles. In fact, I think he has a book out right now about motorcycles. Everyone should buy it.

I saw on Instagram. That's cool. He'd probably do great on traders. Yeah. Yeah, he's gorgeous, and he's an incredible actor. Yeah. He played a junkie, the junkie son of. Vincent DiNofrio and Chips and he was outwe, he was better than the movie.

Was he in a scene with me? Did he pull me out of that car? Yeah, but I don't know that it was him. It was his stunt double, I think. He couldn't make it that day. Well, he's a busy guy. He's doing me a very large favor by doing the small role he did. Song in the Last King of Scotland and Hit and Run, fever by Jingo.

That's right. I did know the name of that, fever. Had Jennifer Lawrence already won an Oscar before X-Men, she was nominated for Winter's Bone, But did not win that. Oh, that year Natalie Portman won for Black Swan. Rightly so. Great, great movie. What a performance.

Emila was so incredible. Yeah, she was. Also nominated, I believe. I hope. Yeah, she got Best Supporting Actress. Nice. Nomination. You know, they call it a nom and a nod.

Yeah, pick your pick. It's kind of like recuse, excuse. Pick your poison. That's it. That's everything. Yeah. Okay. Well, I just again, I said it in the interview, but what a fun full circle for me. Yeah, me too, Mr. Tomness.

Yeah, we all come in with some history with his 30-year career. Yeah, this is a great actor. He sure is. Check out his stuff. Give him a look. All right, love you.