Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Jared Diamond Returns (on the science of leadership)

Episode Date: September 30, 2026

Jared Diamond (Profits, Prophets, Coaches, and Kings, The World Until Yesterday, and Guns, Germs, and Steel) is a Pulitzer Prize-winning scientist, historian, and UCLA professor. Jared joins Armchair Expert to discuss growing up in the shadow of World War II, his family’s connection to the Holocaust, and his path from physiology to geography. Jared and Dax talk about testing history through natural experiments, measuring the influence of CEOs and coaches, and the six factors that determine a leader’s impact. Jared explains the “Hamlet test” for irreplaceable leaders, why timing can matter more than talent, and how democracies overestimate a president’s control over the economy.Start your 2 month free trial today: https://youtube.com/premium . Terms Apply. Cancel Anytime.Check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds: https://www.allstate.com/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. Today we have, which is a great honor for the second time, but this time in the flesh, Jared Diamond. Jared Diamond is a scientist, historian, a professor, and a Pulitzer Prize winning author. I mean, this guy started in the physiology department. Then he became the head of the geography department.

Talk about a polymer. He's an ornithologist. I mean, he's one of the smartest people we've talked to. Yeah, he really is. His most famous book, of course, legendary, guns, germs, and steel. If you have not read that book, it is phenomenal. Everyone should read that book. Collapse.

The third chimpanzee, the world until yesterday, upheaval. And his new book out now called Prophets, Prophets, Coaches and Kings. When do leaders matter? This was so interesting. It's so fascinating. Spoiler, there's not one thing that we can predict an effective leader on it. There's many, many things that contribute to whether or not they are. Please enjoy Jared Diamond.

He's an object spread. As soon as you're already here. Yes, I am. How are you? Good. Wonderful to see in real life. Hi. Hi.

How are you? Last time we were Zoom, right? Yeah, we were. I think we were. I think. If you recall. Yes, I do. My sons reminded me.

That's their role in your life. I have two daughters that I'm hoping will take over. Much of my cognition as I get older. How old are your daughters? 11 and 13. You are in the eye of the storm. Thank you for saying that. I feel a little alone in the eye of the storm currently.

You got through it okay. We have twins. They're 39 years old. Oh, wow. Nothing terrible went wrong. their teens, they want more to spend time with their friends and not just alone with their boring parents. Yeah.

Eventually, when they were committed to bring along their friends, they tolerated their boring parents. Yeah. Right. Jared, I'm so happy to have you in person as an anthro major at your school. Of course, guns, germs, and steel. It's in the selfish gene Bible-like canon of things we worship. And so it was a great honor to interview you the first time, but we were over Zoom.

And now we get to sit together. Yeah. As if I got to take one of your classes in real life. Uh-huh. Yeah. So your first huge book was, as I just said, guns, germs, and steel. It really addressed this question of why were Europeans so successful at taking over the rest of the planet? Were they the product of great special men?

Or were they simply the recipients of great geography, which is what the conclusion of the book was, right? Right. In fact, why are you and I now talking about? English on the land of Native Americans instead of in London they're talking, the language of the Aztec Empire. Why to turn out that way? Right. But this book now is interestingly kind of coming at a similar question, which is leaders.

What makes a great leader? How relevant are leaders? Are they, as Tolstoy said, are they the passengers of history? Or are they, like Carlisle said, history has been shaped by great. men, which is true, and if so, when and why is it true and when and why is it not true? Is that a succinct premise of the book? Exactly. The book is not about which is true.

It's instead a typical Jarrod Diamond response. It depends. And so I look at factors. There are about six factors that enable one to explain why leaders some do or don't make a difference. We'll get to go through a lot of specific leaders in four. different domains, politics history, sports, religion, and business. These are the four silos we're going to evaluate leadership, right? But I think first we should know what are the factors that we think contribute to a great leader. First of all, timing being the right time and place, some leaders

can control their time in place. Bill Gates, when he saw the cover issue of popular electronics and what was of January, 1976. He had been talking with Paul Allen. about developing a personal computer, but kept telling Paul the time isn't right. And when he saw that cover, he said, now is the right time we got to act fast. So some leaders choose their time and place. Some leaders can't choose their time and place,

but they recognize they're at the right time and place. So I see the finest hour of Winston Churchill. Winston Churchill, in the concluding paragraph of Gathering Storm, the first of those six volumes, Churchill said when he had been appointed prime minister, I knew that this was the moment towards which my life had been pointing. He didn't make that. It was the weaker Dunkirk.

Churchill did not cause Germany to invade France, but Germany's invasion of France did result in Chamberlain's resigning and Churchill becoming prime minister. So he knew it was the right time, but he didn't make it. And then finally, Mark Zuckerberg was at the right time in place, but he didn't know it. He was born in 1984 for reasons beyond his control. The result was that he was a sophomore at Harvard

in 2004, which, because of changes in the Internet, there had been social media before, and that was the perfect time to have found big social media. Andy was at the perfect location. Harvard had this cachet. People wanted the Harvard EDU. You know, there's a lot of layers on it. You're exactly right.

So time and place is one factor. Another factor is what in the book I call discretion, which does not mean behaving discreetly, but means having the power to make sense. decisions. For example, mayors have much less power to make decisions than do governors. Governors have less power than do presidents. Democratic presidents have less power than do dictators, Democratic presidents in war time and more power than in peace time. Or in the business world, it's interesting. CEOs of public utilities don't have much power because public utilities

are tightly regulated. The CEOs with the greatest power are CEOs of perfumes, companies and teenage t-shirt companies. A friend of mine is the CEO of a teenage t-shirt company. He's a billionaire because when he recognizes what will be the trend two weeks from now, he has the complete power to churn out those t-shirts. So he's a billionaire. You point out that if you're the CEO of some power or water system, the innovations happened.

You're pretty much overseeing a system that has probably made most of the changes it's ever going to make. There's not going to be a lot of crucial pivots that have to be made. So yeah, the more cutting edge the technology, the more flexible the company has to be, then those CEOs are much more relevant. Right. Even in sports, on the average, a coach of a college team has more discretion than the coach of a professional team because with a professional team, the players are there for longer, they have more power, and the professional team has an owner and a general manager. So on the average, college coaches have more discretion. That's a third factor. So timing in place, discretion, how much power do you actually have? A fourth consideration is

whether or not you are the founder, the founder of a country like George Washington or Lekwan Yu. The founder of a country sets the institutions for good or bad that are likely to continue for quite a while. So founders, and similarly founders in the business world, have more discretion. That's a fourth factor. Fifth factor is that a leader who sees that the public should be doing something that the public doesn't want to do, but convinces, gets the public to do it. Franklin Roosevelt recognized that the United States had to prepare for war, but the American public did not want to prepare for war,

but because he saw it and he gradually nudged the government in that direction, he had more influence than a leader who was doing what the public wanted. I find most impressive in the list is the leader who can convince people to do things they don't want to do. That to me seems like a very esteemable triumph if you can convince people to do things they don't want. Well, esteemable if it's a good thing that they're trying to get them to do. True, true, true. In the FDR sense. And, you know, another example, Charles de Gaulle,

de Gaulle, the last thing the French wanted to do in 1958 was to pull out of Algeria. But de Gaul recognized that they had to pull out of Algeria, and he got to do it. in a tricky way. He began by saying, we will not pull out of Algeria until after there have been no terrorist acts for nine months. And then he said,

we're not going to get out of Algeria until there have been no terrorist acts for five months. So eventually, he said, and now we're getting out of Algeria. So we got the French to do what they didn't want to do. Then finally, the last thing on my list of six

is that a leader who does not have outstanding colleagues, Clement Attlee, produced the biggest change in social. policies in Britain in the 20th century, but he's not nearly as famous as Winston Churchill, because Clement Attlee had about five cabinet members, all of whom were skilled and talented, and they shared the glory. If Atley hadn't done it, one of those five would have done it. So that's a sixth reason. If you have the misfortune, each of you'd have an outstanding colleague.

Yes, yes, yes, we're going to have to share that glory, which we do. But we left out the most important one that comes up most often in the book, I think, which is this thing you label the Hamlet test. So explain the Hamlet test. The Hamlet test is a test that leaders rarely pass. People think, well, he or she, she or he is the only person who could do it. Well, in a country of 340 million people, the United States, it's hard to make an argument that Jeff Bezos was the only one of 340 million Americans who could found Amazon. But in the case, of Botswana, a tiny colony of one million, where at the time of independence, there were only 22 college graduates.

They had seven miles of paved road in the entire country. That's right. And on top of that, of those 22 college graduates, Soretti Kama, was the chief of the most powerful tribe. And so he was the only chief who could get away with abolishing the power of the chiefs. And on top of that, it was on his tribe's land that were found the diamonds that made the wealth of Botswana. So he was the only chief who could get away with giving away the tribe's diamonds and saying that they were national treasures. He was both the president and the chief of this very important tribe.

So, yes, he had to have so many things. That's similar to the competition one, I feel, or sharing the glory. It's like if it's only you. And you're the only person. So the reason you call it the Hamlet test, and I don't know that people would necessarily know this history, but explain why Hamlet is relevant. Sure, people will necessarily not know the history. Hamlet is often regarded as the greatest play in the English literature.

So Shakespeare wrote Hamlet. Was Shakespeare the only person who could write Hamlet? Well, in this case, I call it the Hamlet's head, because this is one of those rare cases where there aren't another 340 million people to consider, to write Hamlet. First of all, you had to have a track record of writing other plays first. Hamlet was Shakespeare's 22nd play,

and he had already written good plays like Romeo and Juliet and Julius Caesar, but also to write Hamlet, you had to have a London theatre company, and Shakespeare had the best theatre company, the best theatre in London. So there were only about two dozen outstanding Elizabethan dramatists. We know every one of them, and we've got their plays, so we can read their plays and decide whether their plays were as good as Hamlet. None of them wrote plays that were as good as Hamlet. So that's why I call it the Hamlet test.

We know all of the other candidates, whereas in the case of Jeff Beezus, We can't name all 340 million Americans who might have done what he did. Yeah. Right. Okay. So let's start where the book kind of starts. And this is, again, probably not a very well-known story about Hitler. But in 1930 years before he becomes chancellor, he is being driven in a car in the passenger seat by a chauffeur and a large truck that is speeding towards them.

The impact seems inevitable. The chauffeur floors it. They narrowly avoid what would have probably been the death of a vehicle. Adolf Hitler years before he was Chancellor. So then this brings this tasty question. Would Germany have had this trajectory without Adolf Hitler? How do we work through this counterfactual fantasy? So I was born in 1937, which means that I grew up in the world of Hitler. And on top of that, my family is from Europe on both sides. My wife is from Poland. The last of my family in Europe and half of my wife's family in Poland disappeared in the Holocaust.

In the case of my wife's family, we know that one of them died. My wife's father's father was killed on the train to Auschwitz. My wife's mother survived Auschwitz with legacies. So in the case of Hitler, historians debate, would World War II and the Holocaust have happened if they had not been Hitler? They write biographies. The trouble with writing biographies is all biographers have to read. recount the same facts. And most biographers conclude he made a difference, but then AJP Taylor, perhaps the best known British historian of the post-war period, concluded using the same facts,

Hitler was a normal German politician who did what any German politician would have done, and so Hitler did not make a difference. Biographers would argue that Hitler did make a difference because he was way out of line in his anti-Semitism. There were plenty of German anti-Semites, but none proposed industrial scale extermination. He was the most charismatic speaker for good or for evil. He was infinitely above even Winston Churchill in his charisma. He also was amazingly skilled as a deceiver of people. He's famous of having deceived Neville Chamberlain at Munich.

But on top of him, he deceived German industrialists, and he deceived German generals, and he deceived his fellow Nazis. He was a great deceiver. So those are the reasons why most biographers believe that Hitler made a difference, but AJP, Taylor didn't. So how can one settle it?

The method that can bring conclusions is the method that I call natural experiments. So I trained in medical physiology. I worked in the laboratory. Chemists, molecular biologists, they work in the laboratory, and they discover things by means of controlled manipulative experiments, meaning you've got two batches of test tubes,

and one you pour or die in and the other you don't pour. You've set up the experiment yourself. If we social scientists were permitted to do such experiments, I would run around since World War II, killing 47 prime ministers and not killing 200 prime ministers, and then I would do the statistics, and quickly I would know whether prime ministers made a difference. Well, that's not nice and it's illegal, and it's a tomorrow,

But history has done that experiment for me, namely since World War II. There have been 47 prime ministers who died natural deaths of cancer and heart disease and Harold Holt drowned. And then there were about 200 prime ministers who didn't die on natural deaths. But we can compare the outcomes and the numbers are so high that we can do statistics on it. Or in the business world, if I wanted to see whether CEOs make a difference, I could experimentally kill CEOs, but it's not nice, but let's be less drastic. Instead of killing CEOs, we will kill their first-degree relatives. If CEOs make a difference, they'll get upset.

But if CEOs don't make a difference, who cares whether they get upset? And in fact, it happens. When the spouse or the only child of a CEO dies, the CEO really gets upset and the business income goes way down. The next worse is if a sibling of a CEO, The CEO gets upset but not quite upset. And yes, these earnings go down. Proportionally. Interesting.

The punchline of this is amazing. If a parent dies, you get upset, but you expect parents to die. So the earnings go down but less. If your in-law dies, your mother-in-law or your father-in-law. If mother-in-law dies, that's the only death which produces that increase in earnings. Oh, no. But the sample size is small. small, the effect is small, and it's not quite statistically significant.

That's very funny. What it means is that without being permitted to do the manipulative experiment, we can analyze the natural experiment that relatives of various degrees of closeness die, and those deaths psychologists will tell us some of those deaths are a big blow than other deaths. So that's the natural experiment. So let's go through some of the columns. We touched on it for a second, but if we start with politics, in history, I cannot pronounce his name, but comma.

Sorretzi comma. Sorretzi comma, who we talked about, I think sufficiently, if we added up the fact that he was the first president of a brand new nation that was incredibly poor, didn't have a lot of college-educated folks, didn't have paved roads, had no foreseeable access to money or resources. He's unique. He makes some unique decisions, yeah, he keeps around some British administrators that have a lot of experience with administration and bureaucracy. That's kind of a rare choice that he makes. Once they discover the diamonds, as we talked about, he is in this position to grant all of those

mineral rights to the people of the country. He proves that he's an extraordinary leader, and then he is unusually high discretion. Anything he says pretty much goes, and crucial decisions, plus some favorable circumstances and perfect timing makes him an enormously impactful individual. And then maybe to counter him, let's talk about Rachel Carson, who is Rachel? The two science books in the last 170 years that made the biggest impact on the world were Darwin's origin of species, Rachel Carson's Silent Spring. Rachel Carson's book, Silent Spring, about the damage to lands and to animals and to people caused by toxic chemicals.

Jumpstar to the environmental revolution. Now, Rachel Carson was unique. She passed the Hamlet test as Surrethi Kama. She was uniquely qualified to do it because she was a scientist, so other scientists answered her letters from childhood on. She wrote prose, but she read the prose back to herself. She listened to it, so she was a writer, but she was also a poet whose writing style is still the most beautiful writing style of scientists today.

She could have just been a beautiful novelist, but also had this biology backer. Right, compared to the best other signs, right? Richard Dawkins, who is terrific. Paul Ehrlich, who was terrific. Rachel Carson's writing style is still much better because she read it back and she listened to it with the ear of a poet.

Two other advantages are Rachel Carson. She was not a university professor. In those days, if you were a university professor writing for the public, that was really bad because it meant you're writing for the public because your career is washed up and you're prostituting yourself, so you turn to writing for the puppet.

It's still the case today. Really? The only time UCLA denied me a promotion was when I won the Pulitzer Prize. Oh, my God. Which prove that I was prostituted. What? That's crazy. It is crazy, but that's academia.

Can you answer the psychology behind that? I mean, I understand publishing in peer-reviewed journals and that's the high watermark for anyone under their employ. They're trying to get their university to have massive cachets. So the more peer-reviewed journals,

publish the higher that rises, but why does a book for the public diminish that? Partly it's envy. Sure. So someone who writes a successful book for the public is doing what other academics would like to do, although they won't admit it. And it's also the case that there's a belief that if you're writing a book for the public, it's because you can no longer write good papers that get 32 citations in the Journal of Planetarian Earth. Nobody reads.

Nobody reads it except 31 other. planetary scientists. Yeah, exactly. So there's a feeling that if you're writing a book for the public, you're doing it because you're all washed up. And since you're all washed up, you prostitute yourself. But Rachel Carson, with her beautiful writing style, a man who wrote with a beautiful writing style, who wrote like a poet, everybody would be suspicious about that man.

Yeah. Rachel Carson is a woman. It's okay for a woman to write with a beautiful writing style. And so for all those reasons, Rachel Carson, I think. passes the Hamlet death was uniquely qualified to write Silent Sprint. Also, what was relevant is she really exposed DDT as being the big chemical that we later found out was what was killing, right? The Bald Eagles. And so that gets to Kennedy this book. And then all of a sudden we have the EPA and we do outlaw DDT, which is great.

In the case of in the business world, do you drink pomegranate juice? I don't personally, but I'm very, very aware of it. Pomegranates were domesticated, something like 4,000 BC. They've been around for a long time. Yes, you can get juice out of them in Middle Eastern markets. Until the year 2002, there was no pomegranate juice industry in the U.S. In the Middle East, you could go to a Saturday market and the salesman would cut open a pomek and squeeze a glass of pomegranate. But there was no pomegranate juice industry.

The reason is that they're hard, much of the medical benefit, and much of the flavor is in the rind, but you can't do it like an orange, cutting it and half and squeeze it. Instead, to make pomegranate juice, you need literally a third. three-story press that can grind this really hard stuff and get the juice out of it. Well, as of 2002, pomegranas being Mediterranean climate plant, pomegranas were grown in the United States, only in California, and they were about 22 pomegranate farmers in California.

Of those 22 pomegranate farmers, 21 were ordinary, poor farmers, so they did not launch a pomegranate juice industry, but Linda Resnick ran a company, successful company. she had lots of money. Her husband invested some of the money in buying acreage in the Central Valley, so that they're now the largest agricultural landowners of California. And he discovered that on his land

were 125 pomegranate trees about which he knew nothing. But Linda Resnick read about them and learned that they might have medical value. So she invests $150 million in learning what the medical value is. And then they build this three-story press because they've got other products. So in 2002, they launched the pomegranate juice industry, we're upon

Coca-Cola and Nessaly, jump in and start producing fake pomegranate juice, so they spend another $120 million, suing Coca-Cola and so on in the Supreme Court, these other 22 farmers, first of all, they don't have the $150 million, but on top of that, they have tiny fractions of the

market, even if they had $150,000 it wouldn't be worth spending $150 million if you only have a tiny fraction of the market, but the Resnix had produced half the pomegranator juice in the United States, plus they had the money, Plus, their company was not a public stock company whose stockholders would have said, for heaven's sake,

don't waste down money at all. Yeah, some unproven beverage in the already oversaturated beverage market. That's right. They controlled their money. And so it took them 18 years to make a profit on it. It was not a way to get rich. They got rich in other ways. But they passed the Hamlet test

because out of those 22 pomegranate farmers, they were the only ones who controlled enough in the market and who had enough money and who had the money themselves, not as a stock company, that they could lose money on pomegranates for 18 years. Yeah, there's likely never a pomegranate beverage without her. She has this kink about finding medicinal outcomes for existing right plants and fruits. Like, you've got to have her weird interest in that to then bring this thing to market.

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Before we move into businesses, I just want to say or ask you, you do survey 22 modern political leaders, Churchill, Mandela, Mao, Idiame, a bunch. What patterns emerge when you look at these 22 modern political leaders? Certainly all of them had discretion. Some of them were dictators. Some of them were wartime leaders, Winston Churchill. Some of them were founders, Nelson Mandela, and Li Kuan Yew. Those are things shared among them.

But there was one thing shared among them that I hadn't expected. I noticed when I went over the table. of those 22 founders, there were only two who retired voluntarily. Nelson Mandela and Lee Kuan Yew. The other 20 founders didn't retire voluntarily. They committed suicide like Hitler, or they got assassinated like Anwar Sadat, or they got voted out of office like Winston Churchill. So what it means is that once you become an outstanding political leader

and you've developed a high opinion of yourself, you're not likely to lose that high opinion of yourself and step down voluntarily. That was a surprise for me. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, it's a good bit of knowledge that we should keep in mind if and when we ever get a charismatic leader that we all love. We need to go, and this person will never show themselves the way out.

I mean, that's part of the reason we have term limits, right, on presidents. But it's why they're so crucial because we know none of them will leave voluntarily. Well, two out of 20. But Nelson Mandela, he was 90 years old. And Lee Kuan knew he'd been in office for 40 years. 40 years is enough. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they left, but come on.

I mean, they also didn't leave. Okay, so when we look at business, you have Bezos, Zuckerberg, Gates, and Musk not passing the Hamlet test. None of them passed the Hamlet test. Let me be clear. I don't enjoy this man's personality. But I have to say after reading the book on Elon Musk

by Walter Isaacson, I find him largely repugnant, but also any, industry he has entered, he has had impossible success. When you're reading that book, you're thinking Tesla, but you're forgetting that he started Open AI. He also has SpaceX, which is the most successful. And then he had prior to that, the money exchange thing he had. You don't think he's unique in his Shakespearean skill set? If he is, it's impossible to prove it because whereas Shakespeare was one of what 20 Elizabethan dramatists, Elon Musk, he was one of 320 million Americans.

How can you go through all of those 320 million Americans the way you can go through the 21 other Shakespeare indramatists? And one by one you say, no, he couldn't, she couldn't. But we have 10,000 known engineers, mechanical engineers. By all means, in your spare time, please go through those 10,000 mechanical engineers. It'll be more difficult than going through Shakespeare's 21 contemporaries, and it hasn't been done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't please me to announce this.

but I do think he is an Edison-like figure. That's possible. Yeah, but there's also other competitors in the market. So it's not like Tesla's the only one. If it was still the only one, maybe you could say that. But I feel like it still was a revolution apart from him. Yeah, I mean, SpaceX still one-of-one. You've got Bezos trying to do it.

But SpaceX is very one-of-one. And then the satellite network he somehow launches five-thous. I mean, it's astronomical with this one human being. has accomplished. But maybe in history, through the lens of history, we will be better able to gauge whether or not he was in Edison or just at the right place at the right time. Right. And of the other big four, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, etc. They were all undoubtedly very talented people. Were they less outstanding, less unique than Elon Musk? Maybe, but it's not possible to make the argument the way you can for Shakespeare, unless in your

remaining years you wish to go through those 10,000 off. Look at a close for time. I'm far too into boating. Okay, so you took a very quantitative look at whether CEOs matter. We scratched it a little bit. But let's talk about when CEOs

die. What happens? We have some good data on that. When CEOs die, the best data set is for Denmark. It's a small country. There are only 76,000 businesses in Denmark. 76,000 CEOs, a professor at Copenhagen Business School, since he went through 76,000, you go there with you at 10,000.

So when CEOs die, the business earnings drop. That's on the average. Like 13% within two years is the number in the book. Something like that, yeah. Showing that CEOs have some effect, but is the CEO the only person who affects the earnings of a company? And there is clear no. again, these professors at business schools have looked at the factors that affect company earnings,

and there are four. Perhaps the first thing he would think of is the year. 1930 was a bad year to run a stock company in the United States, the year of the Depression. 2008 was not a good year in the United States. So the year makes a difference. Second thing that makes the difference, of course, is the company. Proctwin Gamble has been a very well-run company for 150 years, and CEO after CEO, there are some industries that are profitable.

When you do the statistics, it turns out that the CEO and the individual company and the industry are roughly equal in accounting for roughly one-third of profits. And the individual year, despite 1930, on the average accounts for only between 1% of profits. So that's a case where statisticians can break down the relative importance of those four factors. And conclusion, if a CEO comes along and says, my business has made $100 billion this year, so the least you can do is pay me a lousy few billion dollars. I'm the only person could have done it. The response to that is, on the average, you account for one-third of company earnings,

but that's on the average. Maybe you're the CEO who accounts for 80% of. of company earning, but stockholders shouldn't routinely swallow the line that CEOs account for most of company earner. They don't. Some do, but most don't. In most cases, we can say, certainly one can debate Elon Musk, but in the other big four, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg. Or even Steve Jobs. People have a kind of a, what would we describe people's feeling about it. He's a mythical. He has kind of a mythical aura. Despite their undoubted talents, the fact is that other people founded successful companies in their spheres. Their

companies ran in different ways. So what one can say about these big five, even Elon Musk is that at minimum they put their stamp on the way an industry operated. Other people also were successful in the industry, but they ran in a different way. And for example, So there were companies that tried to sell everything before Jeff Bezos. Yeah, Sears and Robot, Kmart, Walmart. eBay, but they operated it in a different way. They didn't operate online. And then after Bezos, Walmart then got into the Everything Store.

So what one can say about him and about all five of them is that they may not have passed the Hamlet test. But what they did do is put their stamp on an industry, caused an industry to develop in a distinctive way. How can leaders make a difference? Some leaders can uniquely do something that nobody else could have done at all, Shakespeare with Hamlet, Linda Resnick. But most leaders achieve something

that other leaders could have achieved, but the leaders achieved it in a distinctive way and put their stamp on a country or on a business. Right. I mean, that's good. It means more people have that option. If everyone has to pass the Hamlet test, that's not possible.

Let's talk about sports, and this is fun for both of us. So let's talk about John Wooden. Will you talk a little bit about him and what he accomplished at UCLA? Sure. John Wooden is generally regarded as the greatest coach in American sports in the last century, and maybe the greatest coach in any country.

Before John Wooden, I was born in 1937, so the major sports when I was growing up were baseball. I was in the year. Boston, the great. Ted Williams and football. Basketball was a comparatively minor sport. John Wooden gets a large share of the credit for making basketball a major sport up there with football.

He was a master of detail. The detail that he went to, not only did he teach his players how to dribble. He taught them how to roll up their socks. It makes a difference how you roll up your socks. His practices, they went for two and a half or three hours, and he would tell his play, run that play. And then at the end, he would say, run it again faster,

run it again faster, faster, faster. The practices were faster than the game by design. That's right. Which is crazy. You practice a little lighter than you play the game in general. He emphasized being in peak physical condition. So when UCLA played against Duke for the NCAA, Duke's players average 6'8,

UCLA players average 6 foot 4, but UCLA players could jump higher than Duke players, so UCLA won. He was a great psychologist. He understood individual players. On top of that, he was great at getting people to work together. But then perhaps the most important thing about him, that in fact his own players emphasized, they said, yes, he was a great basketball coach, but he was the most important person in my

life other than my mother and father because for him, basketball wasn't a game. Basketball was a metaphor for life. And so what his players learned out of playing basketball was, yes, to achieve success in basketball, but also to achieve success in life. And that's something that you can't fake. Yes, there were other great basketball coaches, Bobby Knight, who was not a nice person as well, John Wooden. But nobody would say that Bobby Knight was a metaphor for how to operate life. Yeah, how to handle oneself in public.

Yeah, a couple of unique things he did. Well, first of all, he won 10 national championships, which is bonkers. But he, unlike these other dictators who, and well, this will be towards the end, we learned they fail because there's no feedback for them. He was in a position to be quite strong-headed. But when they had a losing season, he went back to the drawing board, made this realization that these subs weren't playing enough minutes to be good. And when he had a player like Kareem, Abdul-Jabbar, he changed the game to suit him. He was flexible and was endlessly on a path of. kind of discovery and curiosity, and I think that's quite unique about him.

He could have gotten set in his ways and said, no, no, I know how to win. Kareem, you'll play the way I play, you know. He was a thinking coach, and as you say, in that, I think it was 14th year at UCLA, when his team did not well, instead of blaming his players, he spent a lot of time figuring out what had gone wrong. Okay, and now you take down these universities in a very fun way, which is now statistically, How much do coaches change outcomes? Let's talk about the actual power of the coach.

The number is similar to that 30% for CEOs. Coaches make a difference, but they don't make the entire difference as they think. What other things make a difference? Having a great player with your team, but that's not enough. The amount of money that the school puts in. Alabama puts huge amounts of money into their football team. UCLA doesn't.

Alabama pays its coach three times what UCLA pays its. coach the facilities. UCLA has a much better basketball court, Poly Pavilion, than does USC. But USC has better football practice facilities with the result that USC is better in football and UCLA is better in basketball, all of which means that the coaches make a difference, but they don't make an overwhelming difference. And the proof of this is that if UCLA's chancellor and if UCLA's athletic director had seen fit to ask me or to read my book, our athletic department would not now be $155 million in debt

from having fired basketball coach after coach after coach after coach. And you got to buy out their contract. That's bad. And then you get into this incredible statistic in the book, which is when researchers compare poorly performing teams that fire their coach with equally poor teams that retain theirs,

both groups tend to improve by roughly the same amount. Interesting. That's right. It's like throwing dice. There's no skill involved in getting six. It's pure chance. Coaches make some difference, but they're closer to the throwing dice end.

Because they're already great. The coach UCLA brings in presumably is already top-tier coach. Presumably. And in fact, our basketball coaches, I think all of our basketball coaches, since John Wooden, have had winning records of like 65% or 70%. Any other school would be thrilled out of their minds

to have every one of our basketball coaches, every one of whom we fired. 100% of the coaches since wouldn't have been fired. That's crazy. They didn't live up to wooden. Part of it is the culture, too, right? Like in the South football is the culture. So schools are going to put a lot of money in there because they make a lot of money there.

But I have to add to that that UCLA's football and basketball coaches were the highest paid or the second highest paid employees of the state of California. Oh, my. The whole state? Of the whole employees of the state of California and our chancellor. The salary of our chancellor is one-tenth of the salary of our basketball and football coaches. That tells you something. It tells you that Adam Smith was right and market forces are strong. Okay, let's talk about religion because religion, to me, seems like the greatest place to evaluate charisma.

Yeah. Because obviously most religions, if not all, were started. by a charismatic prophet who was claiming some kind of revelation. So let's start with Joseph Smith. Let's talk about him a little bit. Joseph Smith founded Mormon religion. But let's place them in context. So within the last 200 years, there have been four new religions that have spread around the world.

Which are they? Mormon religion, Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Christian Science. All four of those are American religions. but there have been new religions founded in other places. The Mahdi of the Sudan and the late 1800s founded a new religion which expanded over northeast Africa but didn't expand around the world. Why is it that all four of the new religions of the last 150 years that have spread worldwide were American religion?

I think that it's a no-brainer. The United States had the economic power and we eventually had the military power, the Mormon religion. Every Mormon man and Mormon women have the... option, but every Mormon man is required to spend two years of his life at age 18 proselytize. On mission. And if he doesn't have much money, then you go on mission 70 miles away. But if you do have enough money, you go overseas to Europe and to the Pacific.

And that's enabled the Mormon religion because it's derived from the wealthy United States to become a worldwide religion. Now, it's true that the founders of all four of those religions were charismatic. In other spheres of leadership, charisma is not. the only way to become an effective leader. Augusto Pinochet, the vile dictator of Chile, he was not charismatic in the least, or stoward, not charismatic.

They terrified people, so there are other ways besides charisma to become a leader in politics, but in religion, the only way to start becoming a leader is to be charismatic, but charisma isn't enough. There are all these charismatic New Guineans and others

who found religions in New Guinea, but their religions don't go anywhere. For religion to go somewhere, the religion has to have what I'd call an economic and demographic engine. The leader of a religion or leaders need at least two qualities and maybe three. You have to have charisma or you go nowhere. You also have to be or have a great organizer. So the Christian religion, Christ wasn't a great organizer. I mean, he was killed too early.

We don't know how he would have been as an organizer. I heard his room was messy. St. Paul was the organization. of Christianity. In the case of Islam, the Muhammad was not only a charismatic, but he was a great organizer. And in the case of the Madi of the Sudan, he was a fantastic organizer as well as charismatic. The third thing that a religion may need is it may need a general in an army because religions often face resistance. The Christians did not attempt to fight back because the Roman army was too strong. But the Mormon religion did fight back. The Mormon religion had its own

Army. Brigham Young. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. After the death of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young became the organizer. Yeah, you say in the book, you know, Joseph Smith gets a lot of the credit and the acknowledgement, but without Brigham Young, he's the one who really takes it to a place where we can have the infrastructure and have the mission and have the capital and resources. Like Joseph needs him, or we don't really have Mormonism.

probably. That's right. This just illustrates them that religion needs charismatic founder absolutely, needs an organized absolutely, and sometimes it also needs an army and a general. And in a few cases, the Mardi of the Sudan and then Mohammed, those two

fulfilled all three roles. Mohammed, he was an outstanding organizer, an outstanding general as well as a charismatic family, and similarly the Mardi. But in the case of Christianity, the only one of the three roles that Christ fulfilled was the charismatic founder. St. Paul was the organizer,

and eventually the Roman state was the military. That's right. What about Jim Jones? Let's talk about him. He's always fun to talk about. He's going to say cults have that similar trajectory. Jim Jones was a charismatic, I never met him, but he was described as a charismatic religious leader. I didn't know until reading your book. I didn't realize he was quite legitimate before he was a cult leader. He played a large, role in integrating Indianapolis. He was admired because he was anti-racist.

He led the movement to desegregate Indianapolis. And so he attracted idealistic people. When he moved to California again, he attracted idealistic people. So he had his positive side. His negative sides were that he eventually

went crazy. He was a sexual predator. He was economically dishonest. He was a drug abuser. He drove his I, a group two suicide, but he was a charismatic person who was also an outstanding organizer. Was he a general close to it? He didn't fight in the United States, but he certainly ensured that Jonestown was well-protected militarily. Yeah, they were well-armed, as I recall, from the documentary. Let's talk about really quick in our natural experiment that we floored with at the beginning,

comparing 83 heads of state assassinated since the Second World War with the far larger number of 140 who died of cancer and heart disease. What do we find when these great leaders die? Or consequential leaders, I don't know if I'll say great. What happens when they die? What we find when they die depends upon what the social scientist who did this study is interested in looking at,

namely the natural experiment gives you a database, and then you can mine that database for anything. So, for example, if you compare prime ministers who die of natural death, die of cancer, with prime ministers who don't die of cancer, you can compare and you can ask multiple questions. Jones and Olson, the first question they asked was, do leaders make a difference economically?

And when a leader dies, does the economy of the country suffer or does it improve? So Jones and Olson asked about the effect of leader death on the economy. What they found was that if you compared the economy two years later, after the death of a leader with the economy two years later after the non-death of a leader,

the leader stays in place. On the average, the economy stays the same because half of economies get better and half of economies get worse because some leaders are good for the economy and some leaders are bad for the economy. When Mao and when the founding leader of Mozambique, when they died,

the economy got better. Those were leaders whose deaths improved the economy. So you can use that database to look at the effects on the economy. Another thing, if a leader dies, and this is wartime, does the death of a leader make it more likely that the war will come to an end? And it turns out that if the leader is a dictator and a dictator dies during wartime, then it is more likely that the war will come to an end because a wartime dictator knows that if the war carries on and loses the war,

He's going to be killed in, like Mussolini, get killed in an awful way. It's not hard to imagine that if Putin had a heart attack tomorrow morning, that the course of Kiev would be much different than the Ukraine war would probably come to a resolution in the absence of Putin. I agree with you, and I'm not permitted to do that experiment. Yes. Killing Putin. But on top of that, the experiment hasn't happened yet as a natural experiment. But we shall see.

Yeah. Okay, two last things. One is, when do leaders matter? And this is an example of discretion plus timing. There are fun examples where it's like, it doesn't really matter how profound your point of view is or your discovery. If you're not timing it correctly, it doesn't really matter. We have some crazy examples from science, do we not?

So continental drift and play tectonics. If you look at a map of the world, you look at the east coast of South America, and the west coast of Africa, they fit very well, suspiciously well, which led Alfred Wagoner, a German climatologist, to postulate that the continents had drifted, and it's not just the fit of South America to Africa, suggests the evidence was somewhat limited. He could not think of a mechanism that would enable continents to drift.

He suggested that continents drifted because of the rotation of the earth, but it became easy to do the numbers, and it doesn't work. So Vegner died on an expedition to Greenland in 1930, and he was widely disbelieved. This is something I remember because I was a postdoc at Harvard from 1962 to 1960s, just at the time that Continental Drift was proven. Oh, wow. There were many things that proved it.

The two most important things that proved it were lines of seafloor spreading, magnetic reversals, and the other thing was the discovery of magma upwelling. this amazing discovery. Is this where two plates are joining? There's a gap in the magnet spirts out? It was one of my colleagues at Harvard in 1962, who was the first to see with deep underwater the eagle,

the first to see on these lines, the bubbling up of... Welds, really? Magma. So Vegna had the right idea, but at the wrong time, the evidence for it came out in the 1960s, and again, the foundation of genetics. Genetics was founded by Austrian monk. Mendel published his paper in 1868.

He had it absolutely right, but it was ignored. Not until 1900. Three scientists independently were doing similar experiments, and they all rediscovered Mendels. But Mendel in 1868, it was the wrong time. The world was not ready for Mendel, but the world was ready for these other three people in 1900. Okay, so it's hard not to imagine that you wrote prophets, profits,

prophets, coaches, and kings, when do leaders matter? You wrote it in a certain time and place, in that time and place, obviously, is at a moment where we have great polarization. We have a very polarizing president. When you or do you, are you willing to run Trump through these six criteria? And what things do you think he's doing well at? And which ones do we think prevent him from being an incredibly impactful leader? I did not run Trump, nor did I run Angela Merkel through my criteria. In fact, I said I will look only at leaders. whose careers have come to an end

because we can pass judgment. In the last couple of years, our view of Anglomerical has changed greatly. It's for the better or worse? I'm unaware of this. For the worse. It's not that she was an evil person, but it's now regarded

that her decision to bring one or two million refugees into Germany, she was praised for it. She said, they're chaffinous. We can do it, just admirable. But now... Well, they have a far-right rising current.

We have a far-right rising party. And it's now recognized that, Yes, it was a noble thing to do, but pragmatically, it was not a good idea for Germany, the economics. So that's the reason why I don't discuss any political leader whose career hasn't come to a close. That makes sense. That's totally fair. So business schools, including UCLA Business School, justify their charging tuition of $60,000 to $600,000. Business schools say, we will teach you how to be a successful CEO, and the way to be a successful CEO is by being charismatic.

Well, the trouble is that there are many different ways. ways to be a successful CEO, just as there are many different ways to be a successful politician. Charisma is one way, but there are political leaders and there are business leaders who've not been charismatic. Other ways to be successful are to be a master of detail, to terrify people, being a good, good discussion leader, being able to pick good followers. Feedback's got to be important, right? Because as you say, this is the downfall of all dictators is they are no longer subject to feedback, which is dangerous. Yeah, this is something that I know from my own experience running a laboratory

because for 40 years I ran a laboratory doing manipulative experiments on the gallbladder intestine in the UCLA Physiology Department. I had about five students. The students were all naturally younger than I, and that meant that they had been trained more recently than I, and my students didn't hesitate to tell me, Jared, you are out of date. We've learned more recently.

And we've got the better method, so step aside. And I learned to shut up. Wow. Yeah. That's hard to do. Well, Jared, I got to say it is, again, an enormous honor to get to talk to you. Do you turn 90 next year? I'll be 89 tomorrow.

Oh, my gosh. Happy birthday. Okay, so a year and a day away from 90, I suppose. Oh, that's exciting. What a life. Yeah, what a life. I mean, I still love from your first one. He won the MacArthur Foundation.

prize and they were quickly really bummed out that they gave it to him because they found all he was going to do is continue to look at goldbladder. It's such a joy to get to have some of your time and I really, really loved your book. You're a very fun writer. There's nothing too dense or academic about it. It's just a very pleasurable book full of lots of funny and fun historical antidotes. It's a great examination. I do think we just philosophically speaking, I don't know if this is an American thing or

Westing where we prize individuality. I do think we overinflate in general, and if you could say, is there any conclusion at the end of this studying this, we overinflate how much one person can change the country, the economy, all these incredibly dynamic forces on the planet. Do we not overestimate what one person can do? Or do we have it right? On the whole, I would say in politics, certainly in the United States, and probably in most democracies, yes, we exaggerate what even a my minister is capable of doing. It's really hard to change the economy. And if the economy is going well, we give the president credit and it's going poorly. We vote against the president. But it is hard for the president to change the economy. It's even harder for a governor and it's hardest of

all for a mayor to change the economy. Yeah. And you might take office on the day they announced a global pandemic. What now? How effective can that one person be in that scenario? Well, again, what a pleasure. Jared Diamond, please read profits, profits, coaches and kings. When do leaders matter? It's wonderful. I hope we get to talk to you again on your next book. Thank you. I do lots of interviews, so I know there are different interviews,

and it's a great pleasure to be interviewed by you too. You've done your homework. You express yourself vividly. You understand these matters. You ask good questions. So for me, it's a pleasure to do this interview. Go brewing. Oh, no.

He is an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Monica's here. She's got to let him have the facts. I got to tell you. Tell me. Last night, I did about 90 minutes of booking things. We're going to see Metallica. Oh, yeah.

At the sphere, I'm so excited. And then I was like, what else we're going to do? We're going to be there for two nights. Ooh. So I got a reservation at my favorite steakhouse for a night of the Metallica show. and then Wabiwab helped me get a reservation for Best Friend. Oh, nice. Oh, Roy Choi.

And then how about this left curveball? You coming? You listening? I'm here. I'm like, Cirque de Soleil. Let's do that Friday night. Go on to get tickets for Misteer. That's my favorite.

I've seen it eight times. Uh-huh. Great show. I don't think the boys have seen it. Okay. And I'm on the page for Cirque de Soleil, and I'm kind of cruising through. Well, there's so many shows.

There's so many different Cirque to Solioli. shows. I know. Well, you know what my favorite one is. Oh? Yeah. It's lovely. Water. Yeah, you're a water sign. No, no, I'm not at all. I'm an earth sign. Double earth and a little bit of fire. Okay. Go on. You started that? Well, lo and behold, I see, not only is there a Mike Jackson, Cirque de Soleil. Oh. Michael Jackson. Sure. It's at my hotel. Oh, cool. I go, fuck that. I'd rather walk downstairs than cross town. Wow. So now we're going to Cirque de Soleil Michael Jackson. fun. What a fucking weekend we're about to have.

Wow, this is one of those crazy hard choices, you know, a soapy's choice, if you will. Between Mistyre and? Yes, it's like, do you go with something you know you love that you don't get to see that often? And I love passing it on, right? I've taken so many people who've never been to Mistere, and I know it works. Yeah. Or something new. Yeah.

That's close by. That's in your backyard. Yeah. It's an elevator right away. I hope it's good. The tickets were more expensive than Misteer, so that makes me think, sure, minimally people want to see it more. Maybe you could go on YouTube and just watch, like, two minutes to make sure people are flying around and it's not just like.

I don't want to see an impersonation of Michael Jackson for 90 minutes. And I'm not going to say which one, but I once went to a Cirque show that I was underwhelmed by only once. And you're not going to say which one? No, because that's mean. Is it still work? Is it still up and running now? Probably. Okay.

I have seen four of them. I've seen Miss Deere. I've seen Love. Oh, the Beatles one. I saw that one twice. Okay. One of my funniest experiences of my life was me and Panay went. And we had drank each of us over 100 Diet Coke that day.

And the show starts 10 minutes in. We peed right before the show. 10 minutes in, I go to him. I go, too, so embarrassing. I got to go. And he goes, oh, fucking thank God you said that. I'm going to pee my pants. We go.

We sit back down. 12 minutes later, I'm like, I cannot believe I'm about to tell him this. I'm like, I got to fucking go. He's like, oh my God, I'm so good. Monica, we peed six times in 90 minutes. Do you think it was psychosomatic? No. No?

Every time I peed, volumes of pee. What? Yeah. Tons of, tons of girth of urine. Tons of Diet Coke piss. Yeah. Clear is water. No, probably pretty brown.

No? Really? No, I just think when you drink that volume of liquid, it flushes out anything that makes your yawn, yellow. Interesting. Yeah. I used to kind of be upset. with that.

The color of your yon? Yeah. I can imagine you and I have different experiences, though. Because you're staring right at it. Oh, no, because I drink so much more fluid than you. Yeah, you do. And so much more than you. And I pee so much more than you.

Yeah. That I almost never have seen like orange. Orange. Other than that time, I had the catheter and they put a dye in there. Yeah. And I hated seeing that orange yon in the bag. Of course. No one likes that.

No. Gross. But. Unless you have anyone listening. It's got one. Yeah. Let's be nice. Yeah.

You're beautiful. It's a pretty color. Amber. But you're also like, you're, you're peeing where you can look straight into the toilet. I got a great view of my own. Yeah. You've got to bend over. I turn around.

You know, I pee. Oh, then you evaluate in the bowl. Yeah. Well, then it's already been. You can still tell the difference. Yeah, but it has been diluted quite a bit by the half gallon of water in there. So think how fucking orange it was. Before you saw it diluted.

So you see the peep coming out of the penis. Oh, wow. Yeah. I pee out of my penis. That's what's unique about me. Tell me more. Yeah, so I'm using that and I can see the yawn. Okay.

Yeah. So I know right away before. I don't even got a look at the toilet. Remember when I thought this whole time that you were saying W, I mean, Y-A-W-N? Y-A-W-N. Yeah, that's what I thought. Like a yawn. I thought it was like a southern word.

Well, it is a southern pronunciation of you. Urine. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, no, yeah, I pee sitting down. That's how I pee.

Mm-hmm. And then I wipe. And then I stand up. And then I look. And I'm like, okay. And is the anticipation building like, oh, like if you're suspicious, it's going to be bad. Yeah. Are you like, oh, no, let's find out.

Sometimes I'm like, yeah, because I didn't drink water. I wonder. This week. And then sometimes I'm happily surprised. I'm like, oh, I didn't need it. Right. I drink too much, maybe. No, the other day, I drank so much water one day that I got a migraine.

No, that's not why you got a migraine, but those two things happened. Definitely correlated. It made no sense. I was drinking so much water all day. And then I was like, oh, I'm like getting a headache, weird. And then it was just like growing and growing. It was so bad. I don't even like hearing about it.

If I'm being honest with you, I don't even like hearing about someone having a headache. Really? Because I feel like I'm going to get it. The way that might, when I used to have ticks and someone was a blinker, it would set it off. I'm like, I don't you want to know about headaches? Okay. Well, this is, you know, you call me a hypochondriac, but I just want to like point the finger. So you had a real throbber.

It was so bad. And I was driving home and I was like, I like don't probably shouldn't be driving. Like, I am disoriented. Wow. And then I took four Advil as soon as I got home. And then I put this like ice pack thing on my head. And nothing, it was not working. None of that helped.

No. And then I have this thing called a, it's like this peppermint oil thing. And you make a halo around your hairline with it. And it just like really tingles in it. And that started to help a little bit. And then I think the Advil kicked in and then, but it was, it was rough. What was the duration of this agony? Good question.

Thanks. You ask good questions. Thank you. I don't know. An hour? Longer than that. Two hours. Maybe two.

I didn't want to look at my phone a lot. That would hurt, you know. All I can, it makes me remember having hangovers and that I would be laying on my pillow and bed. And I'd like keep micro adjusting my head. And I'd find this little sliver of space where it's like, oh, there's a little relief. Yeah. And then you just try to hold in that exact same spot. And then that goes away and then you got to re.

Isn't it crazy? Aren't hangovers crazy that we have them? and then we do that again. Sure. Yeah. Like. Price of admission. That's a powerful drug.

That it makes your head split. And, I mean, all kinds of things it does. Yeah. All kinds of things. The most curious one is that it would make me crave a fillet of fish sandwich at McDonald's. Very common. That doesn't make any sense. I don't like fish.

Wait, that's crazy. You said that because I was going to bring that up in the last fact check when we were talking about fish and how you hate fish. fish and now Aaron hates fish because But I was about to say I can't believe you guys don't even like filet a fish sandwich I can tell you when I was hungover I love

them I have never eaten one not hungover. Okay well I have a recommendation for you there's a restaurant Little Fish it's in Melrose Hill it's so good they have a fish sandwich there that went like they they created

it during COVID and it was out of their house at first and then it was this pop but now it's a restaurant. The fish sandwich, fried fish sandwich, is a filet of fish, basically, but just much better ingredients. Presumably. It's so good. It is.

Oh, my. So crispy. God, it's crispy. The cheese is so good on it. It has some sort of sauce. Oh, my God. Tartre-type sauce. Yeah.

Tartter type. And you should get it. I want you to get it. Maybe just the next time I feel terrible. It won't be hangover-induced, but... You know, the filet of fish is a few people who I know who are really, really big into food. It's their favorite food. Oh, really?

And it's like a very interesting thing. Where is this place located? I don't know what Melrose Hill is. What's that? Melrose Hill. Well, wait until you watch my video. Fish Town? My Rezi video because it's all about Melrose Hill.

Oh, it is? Yeah. Presumably Malrose Boulevard between what and what? It's like Western and Melrose-ish. Oh. Where there's like arc out. I mean, I'm just wasting the video. Okay, all right.

Watch the vid. Okay. Once the vid drop. I don't know. Okay. But anyway, highly recommend that. What if I was driving down Western tonight with the kids? Mm-hmm.

And we were protein Melrose and I was like, oh, I swerved down the side street. I'm like, I can't even find out about what's happening there. We got to wait for the video, everyone. I'm not supposed to be here. I don't want to know. I got to wait. Okay.

Well, that sounds so fun. Vegas. I'm very, very excited about this trip. Oh, you guys are going to have... With the errands. You're going to have a great time. I had a less... I don't even...

I probably shouldn't tell it. Oh, yeah, let's hear you know. No, no, because it's like not... It's not becoming of a young woman? It's no. I was shameless about something. Oh, what? I was shameless about something.

But and people will like this. It didn't work out. Oh, okay. Okay. I'm going to New York. Yeah. And I, as if anyone listened to the Eric Good episode, which is an incredible episode, please listen to that episode. Yes.

He's such an amazing person. Yes. I say it the Bowery, my favorite hotel. Yep. And I went to book my room. Uh-huh. And two days were sold out in the middle. Oof.

You'd have to go to another hotel. Yes, but I was like, wait, what am I going to do now? Like, do I go there and then go to a different one, then come back? Yeah. Do I just forget? Sleep in the lobby for a couple nights? Yeah. Check your bags with the bell off.

Or do I just forget this and go to a different hotel this time? Yeah. So this, you know, and then I was like, do I dare? Uh, reach out to Eric. Yes. Okay. I did. Okay.

His publicist. I reached out to his publicist and I said, I am so embarrassed to do this. Yeah, yeah. Especially so soon. But, you know, I'm going to be in New York. I'm trying to book the Fowry. And it's saying there are some days that are sold out. Yeah.

I don't know if there's any wiggle room here. Like, I don't know how true that is. You know, like, are there special rooms like, My guess is yes. Uh-huh, uh-huh. And I was like, I'm really sorry. Like, I know this is upsetting. Yeah.

And she was like, of course, let me ask. And no problem. They don't apologize. And I was like, oh, my God. And then I did offer on the air. He did. He did. And he offered, which was so sweet,

a friends and family rate, which I was not trying to do. You weren't trying to get a bargain. You just didn't want to sleep in the lobby for a couple of nights. Yeah. I just want to go to do it. hotel I launched. So,

so then this morning I wake up to like there's like an email chain that has started. And it's like so, it's so nice. Like the person, I don't know if I should shot him out. His name is Jeremy. Okay. He works with Eric. Yeah. And he sent.

He's a good guy. And really good guy. Yeah. We love him. He sent an email and to the people there and was basically like, It's so nice. Like, our good friend needs a room. Make it happen, basically.

Yes. It was so nice. And they were like, make it happen and give her the friends and family. Ray and make sure it's a nice room. Like, just so kind. Yeah. And then the guy responded back and was like, no. Can't do it.

He was like, we're booked. Yeah. Don't know what to tell you. And he was like, the first couple days? And I was like, sure. Yes. Thank you all for trying. This is so, so, so sweet. I'm so embarrassed. And I clearly don't deserve love. And yes, I'll, yes, I'll take those first two nights and then I'll figure out the rest, which is very upsetting.

So a lot of times when you reach out and you ask for a little help, you end up in a worse position. I found this to be the case because then they offer something as a consolation price and then you feel obligated to take that, but you don't really want the consolation price. I'm not saying that's the case you're in, but sometimes I am in that situation. Of course. Yeah, yeah. And then you're like, why did I? Forget it. I shouldn't have done this.

This, now I'm, yeah. Well, that did happen recent. That's not the case here. But that did happen to me. I was ordering an umbrella for my patio. Okay. And I ordered it. And then they sent me an email very kindly and was like, just confirming for you that this

stand you want for the umbrella because that stand doesn't actually go with this umbrella. you're buying it for another and I was like no thank you thank you yeah that was so nice for you to catch and yeah yes can I do the one that's the right one or whatever they're like yes and then they're like oh it's sold out but we have this other one and it's more expensive but we'll give you a discount I was like that's so nice yes and then they're like oh that's sold out too you know and then I was like and then I just had to be like thank you so much I'm going to press pause on this whole thing I'm not going to get it.

And I felt bad because they had done so much back and forth. They were really trying to be like a good business. Yeah. And they were, but like, I was done with it. I had to cancel something recently. I ordered another High Factor 2000 for this house. Oh. And all of a sudden, five weeks has gone by.

I'm like, where is my High Factor? And then I emailed them, hey, what's this get lost? For people who don't remember, it's the thing that Zab. It's best that they don't, that I don't actually. It's the thing. They're articulate. Dax has high. And I am dying right now because there's like two things I want to zap.

Okay. And it's driving me insane. Okay. I almost want to fly to Nashville. Which ones? I'm just a little bump here I don't like and then a little bump over here. I'm not enjoying. And at any rate, so they're like, no, it's back ordered.

But mind you, when I order it, it said in stock, right? So then I'm like, okay, well, now I want to find it. Is there another place I can get at? Sure. So I find another place. Okay. But I don't know. I want to order a second one.

if the other one is going to come. So then I sent an email and said, and this is the term, this is the language I use. I said, if it's okay, I would like to initiate a refund. Wow.

Yeah, yeah. I have found the product from another vendor, I said, I think I'm maybe trying to sound like a doctor because I think you have to be a doctor to have this. Oh. You know what I'm saying?

So I'm trying to. You shouldn't have said if it's okay. That feels layman's. That's true. Or just they would be more mad. Yeah. Yeah, they would be entitled to be mad. And I was.

They say, I have an MD. If it's okay, I would like to initiate a refund. I found another vendor that can get it here quicker. And so I have received a refund from that. And I've ordered another one. But now I'm prepared for that one to probably take five weeks as well. And then I'll be like, I should have just stayed the course. Shortcuts are always the fastest way to the back of the line, I've been told.

Uh-huh. And I've been told there's no short. Oh, boy. You can't even get that out. That's how little you believe in that. I believe in it so much. Yeah. I've been told there's no short cuts to anywhere worth going.

Uh-huh. That's all so good. Yeah. Yeah. It's really good. It was on a necklace. It was on a necklace. That's a lot of words for a necklace.

It was on a compass necklace from Coles that Callie had in high school. And I loved it so much. She got me one. I recall this story. Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty important story. That's a really important story to our friendship.

It is. You know, Callie used to be so. Oh my gosh, she used to be so nice and thoughtful. I was going to say that. Yeah. She really did, though. At the beginning of our friendship, she was making up for a tough beginning. Okay.

If you remember, she didn't save me a seed and, like, it was horrible. Okay. And I was really vulnerable. I asked her to save me a seed. And then I get to class and then she didn't save me a seed. Okay. It was really bad. But once we got through that, she used to bring me treats all the time.

Really? Me, Entemans donuts. Yeah. The chocolate ones with the crumbles. And they had like wax over the chocolate, too. Yeah, they would, they had different kinds. They had a waxy chocolate one. They had a regular.

Ew. And then they had a chocolate one. Uh-huh. It had a cake donut. Oh, right, right. I know this one. Yeah, it had crumblies on top. That was your favorite.

I like the wax chocolate covered one. Regular wax? Or did you like that it was chocolate in the, inside. No, no, it was a vanilla Yeah. With chocolate wrapping. Like the hostess ones that I loved. Yeah. Those are... The hostess ones didn't have as much wax on them as the intimates. I love intimans. It makes me think of my Pop-Bob and Grandma immediately.

Yeah. They constantly were chowing down on an Intimans coffee cake. Yeah, the... Grandparents fucking love coffee cake. I know. It still has never... Got you. Got me. Yeah. It feels very dry. I agree. I was in New York with friends who have good taste that are going to come up later. and they recommended I get a coffee. We went to Zabars after, and they were like, have you on the coffee cake?

Like, you need to get it. And I was like, ooh, I was lying. Like, I wasn't excited about the coffee cake. It tastes a little bit like sand. I didn't get it, though. You didn't. Okay. Yeah, it feels the sand consistency a little bit.

It looks like sand. It is sand. That's the thing. It's just made of sand and cinnamon flavor. Listen, feel free to send us some coffee cake. Weekly is prepared a stew. Oh, wow. Wow.

He started on a stew yesterday, on a pot roast. Okay. Yeah, and that's what we're eating for dinner tonight. What do you mean he started yesterday? He started it yesterday, and then he said it would be ready at 5.30, and then he put a fork in it, and it didn't crumble. And he said, it's not ready. And then it should be right at 6.30. Then 6.30 rolled around.

He put a fork in it. He's like, it's not there. So then we ordered Indian food, not to trigger you. But we did, and it was so delicious. And then he put his fork in it right after we finished the Indian food. and the whole thing crumbled. He goes, well, now it's perfect. So then you just, that's fine.

Okay. Can't no more heat. Okay. Goes in the fridge and then it'll get warmed up tonight. We'll have a nice, nice pot rose. Okay. Well, I'm excited to hear how that goes, the end of that store. Remember that, and by the way, just for anyone that listened to the last fact check, he told on himself and he admitted that his wife said, Aaron loves cooking.

He said, no, I don't. I know. And then he left that fact check, and he called Ruth. And he said, I admitted on the fact check that I had done this. And she said, well, if you recall, it was harsher than that. It was you said, I hate cooking. Oh. He goes, it was even worse than I remember.

Oh, no, I hate cooking. What a, what a strange, strange. You, well, you too. I know. You too. There's something wrong with us. But he acknowledged it publicly. That's all you can ask for.

It's, well, it's something to ask for. Yeah. It's an improvement. Yeah, it's better than nothing. Than just sticking with it. I think a lot of guys just, they stick with whatever dumb thing they did. And then they can't cook ever again, even though it's their favorite activity. Yeah, they want to.

And they remember they enjoy cooking for others. Yeah, and then like, you know, the wife's out of town and then they get something stuck up their butt, obviously. And then the wife comes back into town and they're like, it smells like, it smells like pot roast in here. Did you order it? Where do you order a pot rose from, hun? That's what they would ask. Oh, I got a. Sears.

Tool department. That's why you've never seen it. It's made by craftsmen. Okay. Well, I see there's a pot on the table. Comes with a pot. That's a craftsman brand pot. Okay.

Yeah. Came with a pair of pliers. I would like to talk about a divorce. Well, okay. Okay. I went to an ears, nose, and throat doctor. Yes. What happened?

Well, I guess the headline is I don't have a deviated septum or anything. Uh-oh. Yeah. Which, of course, I wanted. I know. I'm sorry. And then I'm going to. to now do the sleep test where you wear a thing on your finger.

Oh. I think I'll start that tonight. It's supposed to have arrived. What does it do? It tells you if you have sleep apnea or whatever. It measures how many times you wake up. Oh, like an aura ring or something? But I think it's a little more, I haven't seen it yet, but apparently it's like a full sleeve that goes over your finger.

Oh, it's medical grade. And it's Bluetooth and it communicates with your phone. Okay. So I'm excited about that. I'm excited to get a terrible score, which is a weird feeling. Well, no, I want it confirmed. You want validation. Yes, I want, I want, like, data to support this experience I'm having.

Okay. But the experience itself was I went and the doctor didn't come in the room for an hour. Yeah, this happens. I know. It's upsetting. Was this person recommended? Yes, by my primary care physician. Okay, great.

Physician. He did those say, he said, oh, yeah, I know two great ones. One's older, but he's really, you know, he's done a million. Okay. I was like, I'm not afraid of older. Oh. Let's go older. and then I'm sitting in the room by myself for an hour

And then I have to pee Oh, yeah So then I got to pee I don't know what to do I just I walk out of the room Sure I walk down the hallway I walk through the lobby I go use the bathroom

I come back in The door's locked to get back in the hallway And the receptionist is She's not having it Like there's just too many people there I think Right she's purposely ignoring anyone That's in the thing So now I'm like

This is hysterical I can't get the receptionist's attention It was an hour waiting there. And now all of a sudden I hear the doctor go, where's my patient? I've lost my patient. I can hear him. He's yelling. And I go, I'm here. I have to go to the bathroom and now I'm locked out of the hallway. This is how it starts. And he's like, oh, oh, oh, let him in. Then the reception is pays attention for a minute. And then I go in there. And it was the most bizarre interaction I've ever had with the doctor. Like, I don't even think he could see me or something. Because it's

I just don't know. I think he's, I don't know. I don't know. But it was, it was a very bizarre experience. He's poking around my nose. And he's talking about another patient the whole time. Can you believe that thing we saw with that patient at 10? He was talking to somebody else there?

Yeah, is helper. And so he's not talking to me at all. And then when I start to engage, he just doesn't want anything to do with it. Okay. Then he fills my nose with all this numbing cream. And then I sit for another like 20 minutes. I'm like, Jesus Christ, man, I didn't know I was going to be gone for three hours. I had other stuff.

And then they take me to another room and he crams a camera way down. Wow. Could you feel it? Yes. He's like, all right, this should have gotten rid of your gag reflex. All right, now, I'm going to put this in. It goes, ah, all right, I wish every patient was good, could handle this. So I got a compliment.

That was really nice. All to say, it was a very unsatisfactory experience. But I got the referral for the sleep study, which I guess is all I needed because I didn't have a deviated symptom. Right. And now the next, the only thing left is they get the sleep site. But then I got a message on my voicemail two days later. And it was like, hi, I'm calling from such and such doctor.

And we'd like to schedule for an ear test, hearing test. Oh. And I'm like, I would never come back there. Like I would. I would never. You guys know anything. Oh, I got to add to the fucking, the office was dirty. Oh, God.

Like, I'm looking at the, I'm in the room with the camera and they've got some computer equipment. Clearly, they've upgraded to the system. But instead of getting rid of the old equipment, there's all these keyboards just crammed in the bottom of this car. It looked like when you're in high school and they bring the AV car. It's all the old shit. It's not fixed that they're not going to throw away. And I'm just kind of looking around everything. It's shit stacked up everywhere.

This fucking keyboards hanging out of the thing, cords everywhere. I'm just like, I don't want to go back there for anything. Yeah. Ever. Cut this, but was it in Beverly Hills? Yeah. I'm sure the guy was a legend. It's hitterman.

Yeah, it was crazy. How dirty and fucking how much pack rat shit was all over these different offices. And the notion that I'm going to come back for a hearing test was so I can sit in that room for an hour and then I can. Yeah. Okay. This is funny. So when I first moved here and this is definitely privilege, right? Like I understand.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm lucky I can go see someone. Let me say that. Oh, right. No, I know. I'm totally lucky I get to go. That's not what I'm about to say. Okay. When I grew up, I obviously had doctors and stuff, and I grew up in the suburbs.

So I don't know. I just went to the doctor. They all kind of seemed the same to me nice, I guess. In retrospect, now I'm like, oh, those are nice. I thought that was, that was standard, right? Right, yeah. And then. Same with my small town.

Like, when you went to the doctor, they were nice to you. Oh, I mean, like, it's not dirty. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. It was a pretty new facility in my small town, yeah. Yeah, just like the chairs look nice or whatever. Anyway, when I remember when I first moved to L.A., I was like, oh, my God, everything, all the doctor's offices look like grungy. Sure, like there's diseases all over.

Yes, yes. And then I was like, oh, it's probably because I'm not going to nice ones. And then I started going to nice ones. And it's the same. What's going on? It is weird that my small hometown had a much. nicer setup than this really nice quote in nice. Okay, so are you going to go to a different person to do a hearing test?

Were they worried out? No, I don't even need a fucking hearing test. My hearing's fine. But they think, yeah. Also on the thing, Nate, like, you know, you're filling out a questionnaire, which I did. By the way, I got there like 20 minutes early to fill out. I knew there would be a lot of, that's another, I mean, if I can be erring grievances. It's like, I'm in the same fucking network, right?

I go to the same. It's the same group. Yeah. How could they not have, like, I don't understand how that hasn't been digitized in a way that, like, you know my birthday, you have my insurance information. I've gone to all these doctors in this network. And I got to start from beginning. Tell me if anyone in your family's died, I can't. All of it is just waste.

Because it was a new place. It's waste for them. It's waste for me. I know. It's just so inefficient. It's crazy. There's no way this couldn't be coordinated. So, yeah, in that paperwork, it's like, it was asking you questions about your hearing.

Well, none of them would have alerted them to that I needed a hearing test. Right. I have no complaints about my hearing. Yeah. Do you think you're a little defensive because you were deaf when you were born? No, I don't think that's what's going on. Anyways, back to the person. Yeah.

And then I just thought like, oh, yeah, they're like a machine that's just like, yeah, then I didn't get another fee for checking my hearing when I had no complaints of what we're hearing. And then that, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got to watch out. So I was unsatisfied with that experience. And so, okay.

But what's lucky is what would. I have done if he's like, oh yeah, you have a deviated symptom. Let's schedule a surgery. I think I would have to go like, nah, after meeting you and interacting with you. See? And then the fucking filth of your office and your lack of punctuality. And here's the other thing. I understand that people get behind. Like, actually, I wouldn't have even brought this up if the guy had said, hey, sorry, I'm an hour late. Right. I'd have nothing to say to you right now. Yeah.

I wouldn't even even thought about it. I was like, but the notion that you're coming in an hour, like you don't even address that. And then you don't even really look me in the eyes and even talk to me at some point. Yeah, I agree. I'm like, oh, I'm a part of, I'm in a factory. Yeah. They're just, ch-ch-ch-ch-ching, ching, ching, ching.

Okay, but this is why we're different, right? And we did just talk about this on an episode that will come up. Like, you're like, I guess I'd have to tell him like, this place is a dump and I hate him. And I'm like, no, you could just say. just say like, okay, I'm going to go home and think about it and I'll be in touch. And then you just aren't in touch. Well, funny enough, to be more specific about what we just talked about,

I was saying in the past, I would confront people about if they asked for something kind of that I thought was inappropriate. I would tell them like, hey, this isn't, you shouldn't really be asking me this, right? So in the past, and I want to, I want to call back and go like, no, I'm not going to have an hearing tests there because you're an hour late. Still no one's in sorry. and it was a terrible experience. You guys need to fucking clean the office.

And why are you keeping all those keyboards? What do you think you're going to do with those keyboards? Instead, I just didn't return the call and I'm never going to return the call. Right. Because I was saying my new method is I just ignore stuff I don't like. That, of course. But I'm saying if you're in there and they're like, oh, my God, you need surgery. Let's get.

No, no. I was bleeding to death. I wouldn't go in there. The thing that you brought up, the scenario and that he's like up there and he's like, oh, wow, you have a deviated septum. We need to do surgery. then you say, okay, I would like to go and think about this and I'll be in touch. Not like, well, I'm not doing it here with you, sir. Yeah, I'm going to go see the other guy.

I should have. And I'm going to tell my GP to stop recommending. I was going to cross my mind to tell him to stop recommending. I was going to say that of all things to do, you could just be like, hey, it's not an issue, but I am. I do just want to let you know that that was not a good experience. And like maybe recommend the other guy. Yeah. Yeah, just keep it to the other guy.

Now you need to see the other guy to make sure he's worth the recommendation. Well, he's worse. I'm like, oh, wow, I actually got the right guy. He could be. Well, luckily, I don't need an operation. The other terrible truth is he might be the best at the operation. I know. This is to get into bedside manner, right?

And then who gets sued and who doesn't. Yes. So maybe he's still the best. Okay, so the sleep thing. Okay, so you're going to monitor that. And then is there, do you have to go to a facility and sleep there one night? That's the old way. And that would have been preventative from.

me because like I can't barely sleep in my own ideal situation. I can't imagine I've had friends and they hook you up to so many cables and shit. And I'm like you can't even roll over. And I'm on the move when I go to sleep, man. How many pillows do you sleep? I bet I burn six, seven hundred calories a night, fucking flopping around all night. So no, well, what I'm hoping and thinking will happen is if, you know, they conclude I have sleep apnea and I need a device.

I'm praying that this company I'm dealing with for the device will just supply it and I have them dial it in. I hope like I don't even suggest I got to go back to that guy. Yeah. Yeah. Don't even whisper that. I'll just fucking. I'll be like, I'm buying one my own. I'll read the manual.

I'll have chat. Tell me how that. I'm going to go to my hyperplasia guy. My high. What's it called? High Factor. My high factor guy. I got a guy.

2000. Oh, the one great thing. I shouldn't. I should have. said this. Okay. Had a great nurse before the man eventually came in. And I told her I had a high factor and she said oh I know why she said that she missed working for a dermatologist that she had worked for a dermatologist for a lot of years. I said oh wow um so you worked at a dermatologist forever and she goes yeah I go did you ever use the high factor 2000 did you ever just use it? She goes the entire

time I worked there I wanted to and I go why didn't you? She was I didn't want to get in trouble. She goes, and there's one here in one of the offices, and I think about using it all time, and I'm like, go for it. No. I have one, and it's awesome, and I'm having so much fun zapping everything off my body. And she was like, she got it. She got it. She's not going to do it, though. Just like I did for years. She's not going to do it. And this is a major ding, ding, ding, too. Do you think I could get sued by high factor? I don't know. I'm scared. They might call and say, like, you got to stop talking about this device. The LAPD shows up at my house.

seizing your... Sir, we understand you have a medical device in here. And we also understand you're not a doctor. We have it in writing. You initiated a refund. Such a good device. They should actually have me as an ambassador or a spokesperson for it. It's made by conmed.

Okay. That's the manufacturer. Stop. Tell us. Stop. It's such a good instrument. Okay. This isn't a really, really, really big ding, ding, ding for facts for next episode.

Oh. But it is, I'm a little just, I don't care. Okay. It's for Adam Grant. Yeah. And we get in a conversation about cheating in employees. And if those are connected, if people cheat in the office. Oh, right.

Affairs. Exactly. Yeah. Are they more likely to cheat or be dishonest in the office if they've cheated on their partners? Yes. And we both are, we're both like, we don't think that's the case. Yeah. The group you're using was on a very specific what, whatever.

You'll hear that. You'll hear it. It's a healthy debate. But this is funny because this nurse has such high integrity. Like she's like, I want to so bad and I'm not going to. She probably has never cheated. And she's probably never cheated. And now we know.

Oh, well. Maybe he's right. Maybe what if I followed it up? I go, you've never used it. She goes, no. I mean, have you ever cheated? She was like, what? She's like, what does that have to do with me wanting to burn off?

This skin tag I have. All right. You want to do some facts? Let's do some facts. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. Okay. Jared Diamond, my goodness gracious. Yeah.

I can't believe he was about to turn 89 the next day. Yes. He's definitely now 89. He's 89. Since we recorded it. And he's so, he's still so. smart like yeah part of that is it is a use it or you lose it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean that I'm inclined to think that as well although I do know a couple of people that were brilliant and they used it yeah so

that happens too but sure but it is so impressive oh that at 89 he's his articulate as he is and can roll out his whole book in the manner that he can I know yeah it definitely made me think of David Attenborough. Right. And I have thought a lot about this, like leadership and what makes a good leader and all the factors a lot since we interviewed him. What is cute is he has so much he could be proud of or impressed with. And what did he talk all you?

Like when we weren't recording. Gallbladder. Well, that was his expertise early on. Oh, ornithology. Well, ornithology, but his children. Oh, yeah. It's like, it's so cute that no matter what someone does, right? He's just like he's so into his kids' lives and what they're up to.

Yeah. It's very sweet. Of course. And yes, and when we walked out, because I walked him out and waited for his Uber, a little bird shot up into our oak tree. And he immediately was like, oh, that's such and such and such, such and such. Yeah. And normally they're this and they're blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, that's why. like I can't comprehend doing that.

I can do it with cars. Yeah, so you can comprehend. I can in that way. Yes. But birds don't look that distinct to me. Well, and people would say that about cars. They would. Yeah.

They absolutely would. Yeah. I think I told you that was ding ding ding, ding, that was one of the examples that in this archaeology class I had. They were talking about mocha art in Peru and how they can tell what year the pot is made. Yeah. Based on how the pattern changed in art, like it evolved. And of course, when you're to the layperson, these things all look identical. And I'm almost suspicious of like, but you're telling me you guys have figured out that this one came 1,000 years after this one.

And then the professor said, now, there are people in this room that could look at taillights of an Impala and tell you what year it is. And I was like, oh, yeah, I can do that. The F1 drivers can hear the sound and know what part. That's real. Like, that's why I know not to like be controversial, but I know you and other people don't believe in Psalms. And like, to me that's unfair. What are Psalmoliers? Oh, so.

Yeah. And it's like that's unfair to them because they can do that. They can taste it and they can know the region. And just because like maybe you, general, you who doesn't think this is real, can't do that or don't taste a difference and say who cares, it's what they know. I don't dispute that they know it. Okay. Some people do think it's all made up.

Well, there have been some pretty bad blind tests that they failed. Some people, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Some well-knowns have failed some cheap wine tests. So that's one issue. Sure. My bigger issue is like, this one's better and more valuable than that one. So I'm already the whole endeavor, I kind of bristle at.

Because I think it's, it's the same reason someone decided one of these baseball cards is worth $10 million. And it's printed on paper and it's identical to the other one. And the other one signed as well. But that one is worth $10 million. It's, you decided it's worth $10 million. Well, depending on who's in it, how rare they are. Like, it, it's, I mean, people would say that about classic. cars. Like, okay, this one happens to be worth so much money. Okay, I don't see that much of a

difference between this and this. Like, you know, it's all interesting. Everyone has their own niche. And I guess I'm just saying, um, it's cool to have a niche. Yeah. And it, and we're not, and I don't want to disrespect any of the niches. Yeah. Um, but yeah, anyway, ornithologies. It triggers my class warfare stuff. I know. So I wish you could just understand that. A million dollar bottle of wine. You guys are jerking. each other off. Like, you're going to get drunk the same. Does it taste better? The car's going to get you from A to be the same. But can it get you to A to a quarter mile in nine seconds? That's an objective, quantifiable thing. Can the wine taste a lot better? Yes. Also, the more you drink.

Tast, taste is very subjective. Like, I think a Big Mac's better than a $100 piece of fish. Okay, but the, if you drink wine, as I do, and I do not claim to be, I don't, I'm not a SOM. Okay. And I, I would not be able to tell the difference between a million dollar bottle of wine and a thousand dollar bottle of wine. Right. Is there a million dollar bottle of wine? Let's ask what the most expensive bottle of wine that's ever been auction. I'm going to ask it right now.

What's the most expensive bottle of wine ever to be purchased? This record appears to have changed in 2026. A 750 milliliter bottle of 1945 Domain D'Ala Romane-C-Cante-D-R-Cante sold for $812,500, one bottle. Wow. Yeah. I mean, what do you think about that? What do I think about it?

Does that seem... I think anything when you're getting to this level, and it's an item is like, it's crazy. And I can wrap my head around if that's your world. Uh-huh. I mean, it's interesting, though, I'll say this. One thing that's really unique about it is that the million-dollar painting can be enjoyed. I know it.

Yes, I agree with it. The million-dollar car can be enjoyed. Yes. This, you just, you have to be getting that much pleasure out of knowing you own something rare. I agree with you. You can't experience it or it's gone. I know. I agree with you on that.

Okay. That's great. But that's different to me than like being in the wine world and knowing what things are from and stuff like that. But like, yes, owning million-dollar bottles of wine is- Seems a little crazy. To me, you've run out of things to buy. Yeah. And you're like, oh.

It wouldn't be, I probably never get. Even these crazy watches, you can wear them. Of course, yeah. Here's one. There are some weird exceptions. For example, a magnum of Champagne Avenue Falk. Falk 2017

reportedly sold for 2.5 million but that transaction that transaction included an NFT digital artwork another fake thing right it's fake now

do you so they're not drinking it right no the NFT I don't think you can't I'm easy I'm easy no the 812 right there's no way someone's I hope they drink it before they die Yeah, or maybe they're probably going to pass it down.

They'll probably get sold at another auction at some point for $2 million. Yeah, I... It's just to tell people I have this thing. I know. I know. I agree with you on that. Now, what do... But I was saying, as someone who does drink wine, I can taste the difference between a $12 bottle and a $50 bottle.

And I really can because sometimes I'll be at parties and like all, you know, poor. And I'm like, I can't drink it. Sure. But I definitely think there's got to be some stratas we'd agree upon. So yes, I bet you can tell the difference between an $8 box of wine and a $150 bottle of wine. Yeah, I can. But I would bet a considerable amount of money that you can't tell the difference between $150 bottle of wine and a $2,500 bottle of wine. That I would put a good chunk of money.

probably could not. I do think, though, it's all relative. Like, some people can't really care. They don't care or taste the difference between $12 and $100. I like them to scale while when I was drinking wine sometimes. I would get that big fucking jug at Savon for like six bucks. Okay. Pound that thing.

I drink it right out of the bottle. Yeah. Great. I'm not a get. I'm not like, but I've got. Snobbiness is like, you don't think you're going to become a snob at something. And then once you get in the world, it happens.

Snobbery follows. Yeah. The most expensive bottle of wine, I think I've ever paid for. Uh-huh. Was to be consumed in the moment. It was at a restaurant. It wasn't like to own and present, but I wanted it. Yeah.

It was recently. And I think it was like $2.50. Oh, wow. Okay. It was a lot. Yeah. Shared. Okay.

How many about three and a half glasses in a bottle of wine? No, like, I would say like, five there's five yeah okay so fifty dollars a glass yeah yeah okay it's a lot i'm not saying it's not a lot i have thought about that wine multiple times since i had it and my my friend had it and she too was like yeah this wine is so good and so i believe you a thousand percent and i also believe in pain for experiences because that's what you're going to take with you. Right. Right. So I agree. But would you also acknowledge that your your brain does some stuff when you know like I'm going to spoil myself. This is obnoxious, but I've decided in this moment's worth it this moment's

special. I'm going to go for it. Yes. There's a lot built around it. Yeah, yeah. Okay. There is. I totally agree with you. But also I'll buy wine from shout out Silver Lake wines. Great wine. Let me just put it this way. It's the exact same bottle of wine, but it was $25. I'm pretty certain you wouldn't reflect back on it a lot. I know. Even though it would be good. It would be the same. The part is this is what I'm trying to tell you.

It couldn't be $25. Okay. Because it is too good unless it's all relative, unless the cheapest bottle of wine is $5. Well, we agree the price of grapes or the price of graves. Well, it depends on where it's coming from, region. This is an Italian wine. Uh-huh.

And the year is rare. They don't have very many. They don't put grapes in some wine and then gold and other. No, no, I know. Yeah, but the quality of the grapes and when they harvest and how they harvest. It's all. I'm sure they go up, you know, some percentage if you grow them perfectly and you take all the time and all that. But just the base ingredients are the base ingredients of wine.

Again, like a car. Well, not true. Well, the base ingredient. Carbon fiber disc brakes, are they metal? Are they carbon fiber? Is the body aluminum? That has to do with this too. Is it in steel?

Is it in wood? I mean, there are factors. There are factors. Yeah. Yeah. But they go up by orders of magnitude in certain spaces. Sure. Luxury brands tend to, they get an order of magnitude of markup.

Yes. Yeah. But. By the way, I'm delighted. I co-sign on your decision to do that. Yeah. And it's great that you reflect on it. Yeah.

But I also, what I was going to say is, I buy wine from Silver Lake Wine. Shout out great wine store in L.A., great to buy from them. Okay. And there's this, I really like Barolo wines. Okay. That's my preferred wine.

It's not that easy to find. So I will buy it if it's at Silver Lake Wines. I've bought many. And I don't know this cost from this cost. It's all in my cabinet. Mm-hmm. And I'm not... You don't remember what's what.

And some are significantly more than others. So, but there are times where I will have it and I'm like, this is not good. Garbage. Yeah. And... Wine also turts sometimes, right? Yeah. Something's wrong with the cork you can get...

Yeah. And... And it's nothing. And I'll look and be like, oh, that was one of the expensive ones. Oh, that happens. That happens. And I'm like, ew, I'm not buying that again. So it's not.

There are... You won't completely fool yourself. Exactly. You're like, this is like shit. Then you look at the bed. No, this is actually delicious because it was... Exactly. I'm like, oh, yuck.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyhow. Okay, talking about... Okay, back to the facts. Rare things. This is, this is Sim and it's a ding, ding, ding. Shakespeare's most red, most popular place. I think number one has got to be Romeo and Juliet.

Yes. It doesn't... It just has top three. Okay. So that is in there. Yep. I would say Romeo and Juliet. I'd say Hamlet.

Mm-hmm. And then for my third, I would say King Lear. No. Damn it. You want to try again? Midsummer's night. Midsummer night's dream. Midsummer's night dream.

I was in... I was almost out, though. Oh, you are? Yeah. How many other ones are there? Oh, he has so many. Oh, too. Well, he said he wrote 22 before he even wrote Hamlet, I guess.

He's a very prolific man. Okay. Now, I was in Midsummer Night's dream in college. Yes, you were. And I recently was watching or I was on Instagram and I was served Amy Poehler talking to Darcy, Cardin, and both friends of Our Pod. And Amy was saying that she was a fairy in midsummer night's dream. Oh, my goodness. And I was a fairy in midsummer night's dream.

Oh, my God. And you love her. And I love her. Yeah. And so we have some shared DNA. You have something to talk about the next time you see. We have so much to talk about. But that is.

One of you were the same fairy. No, she said she was like pea blossom. Okay. And I was mustard seed. Okay. So the fairies are peas blossom, not peas blossom. Peas blossom. That's who she was.

Okay. Cobbweb. Okay. Moth and mustard seeds. seed. So there's only four fairies? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They're a very small part. Yeah, very exclusive. And small actors.

Anyway, so I just love that. That were both of the fairies. Yeah. Okay. I was never in a play. In your life? I don't think. I'm trying to think. I don't think I've ever been in a play. Well, you know, I also was. Is that true? I think so. Oh. There's still time. They made Broadway debut.

I was also in Trojan. I was offered a Broadway play. Wow. Not too long ago. And I thought, that's crazy. They offered this to me. No, why would it be crazy? I don't know.

Offered is a little crazy. Yes. But like. Well, I've never done theater. Yeah. Well, I've done comedy theater. Yes, you have. Yeah.

But it is different. But yes. Yeah. You've done sketches where you had to memorize stuff. So it's not like you've only did it apart. I've done a lot of stage work. Yeah. I just have never been in a play.

I was also in Trojan women. It was Trojan women. It sounds pornographic. Trojan women and Iphigenia at Alice. Oh my God. That also sounds pornographic. This is all great. Yeah.

Oh, my God. I was her. If a Janaya. Uh-huh. Oh, wow. She's, if you remember. Is she a tempterist? Uh-uh.

She's a kid. Oh. If you remember in the Odyssey. Yeah. She's the kid that is sacrificed. And that's why. Helen's sister kills the husband. Oh.

Because they sacrifice her. Sacrifice. I was sacrificed. Oh. Yeah. Okay. So that was a pretty big part. Okay.

All right. That was cool. Okay. So Hitler was almost in a life-killing car accident. 1930. And then also, you know, that rumor, but it is a rumor because I looked, that his mom wanted to get an abortion. Oh, I don't even know.

Oh, that's like a common thing people say. It says there's no historical evidence of that. Yeah. But it is a common thing people say. So then I was like, wow, he really like... I don't know how common abortions were in 1900 Austria. She wanted to abortions. Okay, so how would anyone know that?

She wrote it in her journal? Maybe. I don't know. It's a rumor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not mad at you for telling me the rumor. I'm only saying it's often useful to think about how the knowledge has been acquired. I agree.

You hear like someone say some study they heard about. And then you go, well, explain to me how that study was done. And you realize there's no way to do that study. I mean, there's a Reddit. But I just don't trust Reddit. So I'm not going to even do that. How much money does Alabama put into their football team? If UCLA is 150 grand in the hole, I got to imagine this is going to be a big number.

University of Alabama spent 82.9 million directly on its football program. While the university relies heavily on the football program generate the vast majority of its overall athletic department revenue, the massive annual expenditure is funneled into various components to keep the program operating at an elite level. Well, you ask how much money the football team generates? Yes, I don't know if this is a cash positive. Also, 25.2 million dedicated to paying head coach. 25 million a year to be the headcount. So,

game day expenses, 7.5 million, recruiting 4 million. Oh my gosh. Okay. How much does the University of Alabama Football team generate a lot? I bet.

147.7 million. Wow. That's through their merch, I guess. In total operating revenue. Wow. That's crazy. Net profit, 64.8 million. Wow.

The South baby. It's worth it. They should spend $100 million. I know. No, because they still want to make money. Well, maybe they'd make $75. Georgia generates an estimate of $147 million to $153 million in average annual revenue. Whoa, ask you of M.

I know that's generally the biggest merchandise team. I've heard that in the past. The overall UJ Athletic Department pulls in roughly $233.5 million to $241.8 million. million. Quarter B. Okay, what do you want? U of M? Yeah, how much does it generate? Football team or? Okay. 175.3 million. I have heard many times that they're the, they are, for whatever reason, they, they tend to sell more merch than any other team. For whatever reason, yeah. That's crazy. What was the money exchange thing? I think you're talking about that Elon had. I think you're talking about PayPal. Oh, yeah. Or at X.com.

slash PayPal. X money. It definitely was PayPal because weirdly I'm reading another book that just talked about PayPal. All right. Although PayPal is who bought his. So his was called something else. Peter Thiel bought it. Yeah.

X money was what it was called. Was Jesus's room messy? I don't know. I couldn't find any information on that. But I looked. He probably didn't even have a room. I mean, we're talking. Exactly.

He lived in a shed. People didn't have like multi-room dwellings, I don't think. I think he lived in a shed. In a manger. Well, he was a baby. Well, I'm sure they would have continued living in that manger now. I thought a manger was a basket. No, a manger is like a little tiny farm.

Oh. There's a sheep and a, let's say. I mean, I knew he was in a farm. That's true. But I thought, oh, I thought that basket he lived. What's the definition of a manger? That says man, manger. How do you spell man?

M-N-G-R, I think. Oh, okay. Then that is correct. It looks like manager to me. A manger is a long, wooden, or stone through used to hold food and hay for farm animals like horses, cattle, and donkeys. So, well, like, yeah, like a barn, like you said. Oh, see, that's what I thought it was, a basket that he was in.

But no, the basket is in a manger. Oh. The basket itself is not the manger. Because that basket could be anywhere and it would still be a basket, but it's in a manger. Okay. Yeah. which is a big stone or wooden square that's containing horses, cattle, hay, and donkeys. Yeah, I don't think a donkey could fit in that, so.

That photo. Yeah. All right, well, I learned something today. I thought it was a name for a bassinet. You didn't grow up Christian. What can you do? Exactly. What can you do?

I would not, we would not know the word manger if Jesus hadn't been brought into a manager. I've never heard it apart from in the biblical sense. Yeah, and the nativity scene is the manger. I should still know, though, because, you know, I did take religion with my hot professor. Yeah. And you went to a few, you went to a few youth church groups with your friends, too. I went to youth group with my friend, like, a couple times. I also went to synagogue.

That was more fun. It was it? Yeah. Okay. With my friend, Julia. Anyway. That's where I got Laberti at a Jewish bazaar. Oh, wow.

Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Yeah, that's a good deal. Okay, I love you. Love you.