Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Jedidiah Jenkins (author and memoirist)

Episode Date: November 23, 2023

Jedidiah Jenkins (Mother, Nature) is an author and memoirist. Jedidiah joins the Armchair Expert to discuss how being Christian affected his identity, what sexuality could be like without social rules, and practicing not getting a boner. Jedidiah and Dax talk about what it means to be a centrist now, how it’s difficult for him to know when someone is flirting with him, and his relationship with his mother and her faith. Jedidiah explains how he learned to find common ground with people who don’t share the same beliefs, embracing the double helix of the narrative and experiential self, and why he wanted to retrace his mother’s walk across America. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. It's Thanksgiving. We miss that turkey. Oh, yeah. And I've stolen that, you know, from Aaron. I just got to give a shout out to, he's the proprietor. Yeah, you got to give credit where credit's due. We have a really good friend of ours on today.

Yeah. Jedediah Jenkins. Jedediah Jenkins. Jedediah Jenkins. He's so good. When I met Kristen, they lived together, and that was her very best friend in the world. Yes. And he's so immersed in our friendship circle, and he's just an incredibly talented writer. He's a memoirist.

He is a memoirist, which I didn't even know that term until I did my research on Jedediah. But he has a few great books. The memoirist, which I didn't even know that term until I did my research on Jedediah. Yeah. But he has a few great books. He has To Shake the Sleeping Self, Like Streams to the Ocean. And he has a new book out right now called Mother Nature, A 5,000 Mile Journey to Discover if a Mother and Son Can Survive Their Differences. It's great. It's so good. He's great. This's so good. He's great. This is such a fun episode.

For a second, I was like, whoa, am I partial? Like why? I'm enjoying this so much. Is it because I just love him? Yes. But I don't think so. He's just so interesting. He is incredibly interesting.

We love Jedediah Jenkins. And what a name, Jedediah Jenkins. Oh, also just side note. He also is who introduced me to Huey. Yes. My favorite guy in all of the South. That's right. Yeah. People remember Huey.

He was on a fact check. He was. Wonderfully polarizing, just as I would expect. Please enjoy Jedediah Jenkins. Trip Planner by Expedia. You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and your friends find a place on a beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia. Made to travel.

He's an upchair expert. He's an upchair expert. He's an upchair expert. I love it here. It's cozy, right? Yeah, very. Maybe I peeked up here like when you bought this house, but I've never been up here since it's become armchair's iconic layer, and it's much cozier than it looks in photos. Yeah, that's people say that.

You know a place first and you see it in photos second. You can't evaluate the photos probably objectively. The spatial mind. The hippocampus. Is that what that does? Yeah, and you know how I learned that? Well, whose book was it? Paul Bloom's because he gave us a little rhyme.

The hippocampus is how you know where you're at on campus. Wait, he did not say that to us. I've never heard that. It was in his book. And then I said it to him and he said, oh, you're at on campus. Wait, he did not say that to us. I've never heard that. It was in his book. And then I said it to him and he said, oh, you really read the book. Okay, my question is, Paul Bloom is someone I only know from podcasts.

Yes. And he's so articulate, so delightful. But some people who are amazing interviews and amazing speakers, the book version of them is like less interesting. Ah, sure, sure, sure. Can you speak to that? And vice versa too. Very vice. Ah, sure, sure, sure. Can you see that? And vice versa, too.

Very vice versa. Well, you know better than me. Probably more vice versa, where someone's so well-spoken in writing, and then in person, they're tongue-tied, or they're just not an extra person. Wait, I have a question. Yeah. So, I got here at 1059. I'm very punctual.

Okay. My whole life. I felt very Jada Pinkett. Okay. And my question is, have you, and you don't have to name names, had somebody who just like was very late and unapologetic? Well, we'll name names because it's okay. Cause we talked about it when it happened and this crazy course of coincidence afforded this reaction from me, which was Machine Gun Kelly. Do we want to interview him? I don't know.

Yeah, he's a big name. I guess he's got to be interesting. But my knee jerk knowing nothing about him was I don't think I like him. You went in with some preconceived notions. Yeah, just some book by the cover stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I think he was supposed to be on Monday. So then I spent the whole morning researching him. And in the research, it became incredibly evident to me that I loved him,

that I knew him so well, that I related so much to him. And I learned how absolutely prolific he is. Now, whether it's stuff I consumed or not, you got to admire the volcano of creativity. And I can tell he's a vulnerable. He's sensitive, really rough childhood, crazy dad who was a missionary and took them all over the world trying to spread the gospel. So you're going to make me feel bad about him being late. No, no. Oh, I'm thrilled.

He straight didn't show up. You're here. We're here. He canceled right before the interview, which normally would have annoyed me because I spent the whole day researching. But I was like, yeah, okay, that's no problem. Could he come on Wednesday? Yeah. No, you're probably out normally if that happens.

I'm not going to roll the dice twice that we've scheduled this time. On Wednesday, no one can find him. So he does show up, and he's 40 minutes late. Yeah, he was apologetic, though. I will say that. Absolutely. And he sat down, but I didn't get mad at him. It's just a testament to you think your reactions are predictable or they're objectively like, of course, I'd be mad.

Anyone would be mad. That's a defense we use. But no, I had this yearning to connect with this boy. And so I didn't mind at all. And it was this great, beautiful interview. And yes, he was very apologetic. We've had people be late, but no one's been just like, yeah, accept my lateness. The only thing that I know in that world famously is Rihanna.

Rihanna called me when I was working at Invisible Children. What are you talking about, Jeff? Get ready for this. I'm so excited to name drop this. I was working at Invisible Children, which is a charity where we made documentaries about child soldiers. Rihanna saw one of our videos. Hold on one second. We make documentaries about child soldiers.

Sounds like it could be celebratory. Okay. So abducted children who were forced into— Conscripting? Yes. No. Yes, okay. Documentaries to stop the use of child soldiers.

There we go. Invisible Children made Coney 2012, that clusterfuck— Viral. Viral situation. Rihanna saw it. She's like, I've never been this moved. She knows a mutual friend of ours who's a music video director. I'm getting an unknown number call on my phone, and who answers an unknown number? No, never. Psychopath. But the fifth time, I'm like,

even a scammer doesn't keep calling back. They move on. I pick it up, and it's a Barbados accent. No. I don't even know what she sounds like speaking. Right. So I don't know who I'm talking to, and she says Rihanna, which at that time, I'm like, well, it's not Rihanna. I don't even know who I'm talking to. Anyway, she puts the mutual friend on the phone and then my brain connects. And then I don't remember anything that was said after, but she said, I want to meet you the next day. Oh, wow. She's shooting a music video in LA. I drive up from San Diego. I show up at the music video set. I've never been on a music video set. It's unbelievable. And she's like, I'm going to meet you at 3 PM. We get there, of course, at two. And we're just like in the mix.

She isn't on set. Everyone's waiting for her to start recording. We can hear her in the dressing room of the soundstage. She's in there cackling with her friends. Smoking weed. Having the time. Good for her. So I'm with Kenny, our mutual friend.

And we're standing outside. And we become best friends with her security guard. And we're there for six hours. Six hours? No, hey, I'll be right out. And we're there for six hours. Six hours? No. Hey, I'll be right out. Nothing, of course. Do you think she forgot?

I think that she is so present and doing whatever she wants and just moves through the world. I don't think it's conscious of I'm going to make them wait and flex. I think she's just like, life is so hectic and I do exactly what I want when I want. And it's worked out for me. So I'm going to keep doing that. And she was delightful and so tall. Like how tall would you say? My height, but she was wearing heels.

So taller than me, I'm 5'10". Well, you know a Dax, well. Yeah, go ahead. You call her something. I think she's so sexy. Oh, yeah, who doesn't? I think she's so sexy and I call her the sex giraffe. And Monica hates it.

Yeah, cause it's like- But then some armchairs liked it because they made a beautiful painting of the sex giraffe. It was a hybrid of Rihanna and the sexy giraffe. And then Monica and I were peeking around bushes. It's an incredible painting. But also it led to a horrible conversation

that made me sex chinchilla. Sex chinchilla. Oh God. Isn't that so unappetizing? Aren't chinchilla. Oh, God. Isn't that so unappetizing? Aren't chinchillas so soft? They're legendarily soft. I honestly

think it's appetizing because the softness. And I have found in my late bloomer sexual journey that I really like a smaller person. That's nice.

Same, same, same. I mean, you're beyond. Yeah. You're above 4'11". Keep walking. Wow. But you got to be crazy powerful. You got to be asymmetrically powerful.

Exactly. Exactly. That's what happens. And fluffy. Do you like your little ones powerful? No. Okay. Yeah, good.

I love the honesty. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I like them to need me to protect them. Right. Because your wife does not need you to protect her, but she likes it. I need protecting from her. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I like them to need me to protect them. Oh. Right. Because your wife does not need you to protect her, but she likes it. I need protecting from her. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, my God. Okay, let's start at the beginning. Because we just jumped in with such familiarity. People will smell it, and they'll want an explanation. So here it comes. When I met Kristen 16 years ago, she lived with you. Rather, you lived with her. I lived with her in her beautiful hillside estate.

Yes, it was a 65 bedroom. Pre-Rihanna, Rihanna. Yes, pre-Rihanna. And you were like, you don't need this house. Yep. I remember. I was like, how much do you pay for this? How much do you make on Veronica Mars?

I was her friend for a number of years and saw her go through different boyfriends or whatever. And it was like, la, la la la. And then this lightning struck and everything shifted when you showed up. I will say it is very jarring to see someone meet their soulmate when you're front row because I didn't have my first boyfriend till I was 30. I'm late to the game and still figuring it out. And it just feels like, okay, la la la, got to figure out what I'm going to do. This person's fine. Let me go down the checklist. There is 60.

That's kind of almost passing. And then you just see someone when the checklist no longer matters. And it's so annoying to believe in that because it keeps me looking for it. Same, Jed. Hello. TikTok. But it is very profound to see.

It was a bumpy ride at first. I'm sure there was a lot of consoling. I had broken up with her at one point. I'm sure you hated me at some point. Well. Be honest. You are a very strong energy. And as a gay man, I fear alpha energy. And it made me recoil a little bit of just like, wow, this is a lot of shifting energy in the house. Agreed. Did you think you might beat you up? No, I just don't like being uncomfortable. Yeah. and Dax loves discomfort. No.

Listen, I know I present as that. I've had many different gay friends over the years that it started very tense. Well, then you become the ultimate friend because you're the friend we never thought we could have. Yes, this is why Silicon Valley loves Ashton Kutcher. It's very that. And it's why back in the Obama era, the White House Correspondents Dinner was so fun because D.C. is power and they dream of popularity, which is Hollywood. And Hollywood is popular and they dream of power. And so they go and jerk each other off.

And the energy is so fun. It is. It is. Yeah. But at least from my perspective, because you didn't trigger me at all. What triggered me is I think everyone's trying to take advantage of me and everyone else. And so I'm starting to love this person. And I see like, well, five people live here. Yeah.

Who pays what for rent? It's not my place. This is all wrong. Yeah. There's a little of me that's starting to evaluate. Is this girl being taken advantage of? Which is protection. This woman.

But despite that, I fall in love with you and Ryan immediately because Ryan Hansen's also living there. And Amy. And Amy. And Amy. So many dogs. I just immediately like you so much to the point where I do something I don't normally ever do in life, which is like I ask you if you'll go to lunch with me because I care about you pretty quickly. And I want to talk about where we're at with being gay and being Christian. You were out?

I came out to my friends like at 19. Okay. And then my parents at 21, 22. But there's a thing in gay culture called best boy syndrome, where when you wake up into your identity as a middle schooler and you realize what you are naturally makes you in trouble, especially at a Christian school. I am in trouble by existing. You want to become the best boy in the world to prove your worth. So you're a student body president. You're all the things. Let's list some accolades. I was student body president. I was most likely to be successful. No. We go to USC. We go to Pepperdine. We pass the bar. The irony that Dax is the popular kid. You're the popular kid. Well, I was very lucky. Yeah. That's the thing. The subjective

experience of anyone is I'm liked until they find out. Of course, yeah. Yes. But when I met you, you were presenting as gay, but very Christian and believing in it and never going to act on it. Yes. That was your declaration. Like, I am gay. This is a challenge or a test that God's given to me. But you're brilliant. So whatever you turn your opinion onto is going to be mildly persuasive.

This is the danger of being smart. You can make good arguments. It doesn't mean they're actually sound. Well, and when your heart is scary, so you turn to your head and you can create arguments for anything. You were like, I'm going to use all this energy that I would normally be putting into this, and I'm going to dedicate it to invisible children and this cause and that cause, and I'm going to- And to knowing the Bible and being an advocate for Christianity as a gay man better than anyone else so I can prove to the community that I fear exile from the most, my Christian friends, who was my whole community, exile, which is an ape's biggest fear. So I was like so scared of that.

So I was going to become the boss of the Bible. Yeah. But the thread pulled on the sweater was that I'm obsessed with anthropology and nature and evolution. And I always have been. The first linchpin of my deconstruction of my faith was the fact that my mom allowed me to watch the Discovery Channel. Oopsies. Learning about dinosaurs and learning just the incongruity and the way that their explanations were so facile and silly. The best way to make someone stay religious is to make them unable to read or consume anything. Anyway, so your perspective and the way you see the world analytically and scientifically,

and you want to ration and get there with logic, it was so attractive to me. Even though your masculine energy was triggering, it was also so delicious. I was envious of your mind because your mind seemed to be set free to just be like, whatever is true is true. And I want to know. You approached me with curiosity, like, why do you think that way? And I remember just that posture. My subconscious was like, one day I'll get there, but I can't. Well, that's delightful because I also was very horny for your mind. I immediately liked how you thought and spoke. You're so articulate. It's incredible. But we went out to lunch. I said, I'm not going to try to prove to you that there's not a God.

I know you believe in this God, and I'm not at all suggesting you stop. But I am suggesting there's no way that if there's a God worth worshiping, that he would put you on this planet to be lonely. I don't accept that for you. Isn't it so wild? I had my best friend in college. He was very Christian. And it's so interesting when you're a closeted Christian or gay Christian, so many men, their sexuality is on the spectrum, Kinsey scale or whatever that is. If we lived in

a truly open world with no labels, men having sex would be, I think, extremely common, more than it is. To be exclusively heterosexual, I think, is rare. And I think it's rare to be exclusively homosexual, which is why we're less than 10% of the population. And I have every societal reason to try it with a girl. It would be so much easier in my life, especially where I grew up. And so I would say there is a huge middle. Anyway, there are so many men who, in the guise of best friendship and brotherhood and fellowship and church and the slumber parties of it all and the back rubs, my entire teenage years and 20 years were giving like multi-hour long swapped full body butt rubs of many gorgeous

straight men. Many. Hours and hours. And they would do it to me for hours and hours. It's like your hair play, Monica. I know. But I would never do that with a girl. Right, right, right, right, right.

Because I'd be like, my hands hurt. Yes. Let's just talk. Yes. Didn't you get aroused? No. The NRB, the no reason boner, which was so popular in high school, was men just had NRBs all the time. NRB.

I don't get those because my subconscious knows that's dangerous. Cause if I'm in the locker room, it'll be a tell. Boom. It's a tell. Yeah. Your penis defines me. No, it betrays you. Yeah. Your penis has betrayed you. So my penis learned very early that it does not wake up unless it has overt clues. Wow. So you have to like seduce me and start touching me and kiss me and then it is up. But it is not up from visual anything from a distance at all.

And from butt rubbing apparently. Wow. I would have been spraying all over myself. Wow. But did it feel intimate? Very. I wish I had my college email. I had email love letters endless. You're the most important thing that's ever happened to me. I don't remember the day before we met with multiple guys that are straight and married, like love letters. Under the guise of friendship.

Under the guise of brotherhood in Christ. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Intimacy. But you were about to say that you had a friend from college. I'm back. God bless your continuity. So he said, to say that you had a friend from college. I'm back. God bless your continuity. So he said, don't you think that it was such a gift from God that he made you so socially relatable because you get so much intimacy from your friendships. You don't need to have sex. God designed you for this to be a beacon to other men afflicted with homosexuality. This is your chance to really be a leader, which that was feeding my best boy syndrome. And I'm like, oh God, maybe he's right. And your ego probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Be a leader of gay Christians. Yeah. That experience of being a horny gay boy and realizing that A, you're in trouble and B, the church that is your community is going to reject you.

The place where the best boy syndrome goes is to become a priest because, oh, I'll show you and I can marry God. That's what they do. So then it's like I'm the best of the best. But repressed sexuality always comes out sideways. Also, I have the most built in excuse of all time. I'm celibate. Exactly. Bulletproof. Yes.

I always think of those hydraulic presses when you push something, push something, push something, and then they explode at the very end out the side. That is what happens to specifically repressed and oppressed sexuality because it's one of our primary wirings after breathing and eating. And it will take control in the driver's seat eventually. And it will destroy your life. I mean, I don't know about y'all. I did not get one birds and bees conversation. Did you? We had a book, you know, that cartoon drawing book that just sat on the shelf. That your school gave you or your family gave you? No, it was on my family's shelf.

But I don't even think they told me, hey, read this. It was just there for me to go look at if I wanted to. But no, I have zero memory of an actual conversation. How often were you in that book? I liked the book. I bet. I was kind of perverse. Oh, I have zero memory of an actual conversation. How often were you in that book? I liked the book. Yeah, I bet. I was kind of perverse. Oh, I was finding romance.

There was one I would do anything to find, I would frame it. There was one romance novel that my mom had down on a shelf. It was like the two-third cover where there's a peekaboo of the woman and you open it and see the man. He was so gorgeous. Like, it was the unlocking. I'm obsessed with the unlocking of young sexuality. My first crush was the rooster in Rock-A-Doodle. He was so hot.

He was based on Elvis. And he was like, big barrel chest. He could sing. I was in love. I would watch that movie on repeat. Then I loved Balto. This is becoming a problem, which is a dog. Very sexy Alaskan dog.

Oh, on a cartoon? Cartoon. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, it was like the Idaskan dog. Oh, on a cartoon? Cartoon. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, it was like the Iditarod movie. Yeah, sure, sure. By the way, I don't know any of these movies you're watching. Neither of those have rang a bell. You said Bolt?

Balto. Oh, Balto. Don't know it. And the first one? Rockadoodle. Yeah, what? These are Disney knockoffs. Oh.

Remember the, like, All Dogs Go to Heaven? Yeah. There was a disgruntled Disney animator who broke off and started his own and there's like Wizard of NIMH or whatever. There's like a maybe that's

there's like a dark weird branch of animated movies in the late 80s. That made you horny as hell. Were you allowed to watch regular Disney movies? Oh yeah.

Okay you were. I wasn't allowed to watch The Simpsons or Married of the Children which there must have been some thing because every millennial kid has that same rule

that was like raised by a religious family. What did they watch? That'd be a good podcast. In place of? What news story did they watch to make those two shows get locked? Oh, 100%. You're right. You almost said 60 Minutes,

and that seems like the most likely suspect. Oh, I need to tell you, Dax, early in your influence in my life, there's multiple things that you've deeply influenced me on. One of them being your love of 60 Minutes, which, you know, 60 Minutes has been around forever. So I remember watching my grandparents watch it and being like, that's a no from me, dog. Well, yeah, that's a no from me. Also, any show that starts with a stopwatch, it's basically like you haven't got an hour left of it.

Yeah, dear God. It's counterintuitive. It is my golden compass of life. They are so good. I'm obsessed with every decomposing anchor. They're at the front lines of every cool, interesting thing. It's the best reporting. And for 40 plus years now.

It's insane how long the consistency has stayed good. It's unbelievable. And for those of you that don't know how to find CBS like me, their YouTube channel is lit. I just follow them on YouTube. Every story posted at length, 20 minutes, is on their YouTube channel. Oh, and do they have the archive? They feature ones from the archive, but I don't know how deep it goes.

Well, Monica and I were just talking about this literally yesterday. I said, if there's a single reference that's most frequent for me, it's definitely 60 Minutes. That's the thing I'm constantly like, I saw a segment on Ted Turner in 99. Yeah. I like that they haven't tried to keep up with this new age. They're still boring in a good way.

My only complaint is I want them to be investing in the future anchors a little better. They're not introducing new characters good enough for me that are youthful that are going to carry the torch. I'm a little bit nervous. It is interesting.

There may be a power dynamic there of just like legacy. Yeah. Sort of like what we have in politics right now. And I get it. You've got all these ace gunslingers on the roster. And they're still doing great. Yes. They're not like abity abity.

Yeah, we don't want to be ageist. We should let them be. I know. It's just, yeah, you're not going to tell Leslie Stahl, like, you don't have a segment this week because we got this new. But we do need to introduce the people that are going to carry the torch because we don't want to be in a jeopardy situation. Right. Where it's just like, oh, fuck, what do we do now?

It's less about ageism and more about until that one doctor from Harvard figures out how to make us not age. There's a guaranteed sunset. And it's like, let's keep the young blood in here. Yeah, I just want to make sure that our longevity plan is in place. That's it. That's it for the program. The program's got to transcend all of these generations. Wait, what was your sexual awakening human-wise?

Who did you see that was a human, not an animated animal? Can I set him up for a great one from the book? Because I think it's such a wonderful time to be horny. You rolling the explorer. Oh, and the firefighter? Yeah. I got in a car accident on January 1st, 2003, which made me 21 or 20. Wait, I'm so bad at this type of math. So if I was born-

What year were you born? December 82. Okay. Did I turn 20 in 2002 or 2003? 2003. No, you turned- The end of 2002. Two.

You turned 20. I was 20. So in January 1, 2003, I was 20. Yes. That is so hard for my mind. That is tricky because you're changing years. A December birthday is virtually like not being born in that year. You're really born in the next year.

Okay, helpful. Let's think of you being born in whatever you say. 83. So I was 20 and had not had sex, had not kissed anyone, and had not been touched by anyone except my friends. There's also very much a wrestling culture. I don't know if that's with all boys. As a little gay boy, I'm like, let's wrestle all the time.

Loved it. I spent most of my youth wrestling as well. Yeah, and just being like, don't get a boner. That was where I practiced it. But anyway, I flipped this car. It was the extra car that my family had, which was just like no seatbelts, bald tires, no one worried about it. It was just like sitting there, rotting. I came home from going to USC for Christmas in Nashville. I start driving around an S curve

and the bald tire. I mean, of course, I'm also 20. I don't know anything about how anything works. I don't know what a bald tire is. You're paying attention to the song you're listening to. Yes, which is Tori Amos. And the car fishtails and then goes perpendicular to the road. The tires catch. I go up the hill because it was in like a canyon. Then I roll down. I break the windows with my head.

Bing, bong, bing. There's no seatbelt. So I'm being ripped from driver's seat to passenger seat back and forth, dragging my legs like a ragdoll. I crawl out covered in blood. I'm fine, I think, but I'm also in shock.

Time is so confusing in those kind of moments. A fire truck appears. And from my memory, I only remember one, this gorgeous, buff dream is standing over me, saving me, like looking down at my face. I'm laying on the ground and he's like, I'm here to help you. And he's giving me a full body massage because he's checking to see if I wince in pain because the shock has stopped me from being able to feel a broken bone. But if you squeeze it, I'll jerk. So anyway, he's massaging me up and down. In the moment of what happened, I'm just like, this is really nice.

This is heaven. What a dream. Also, what a cliche. Hot fireman. Hot fireman. Oh, Tig's got a joke about that. Hot fireman. Yeah.

She doesn't understand the attraction to men until she was carried by a firefighter out of her apartment. Well, is it because A, they train all the time and B, I would assume in most places, especially east of the Mississippi, there aren't that many fires

so there's lots of time to work out. And compare yourself with the other guy in the station. Same amount of car accidents. I think it's the bulk of their work is cars.

You're right, you're right. It's also that you're in distress and someone is saving. Like, it's already heightened. It's also that you're in distress and someone is saving. Like, it's already heightened. It's true. But I will say, it is also a sign of the intense repression

that that's enough. You don't have anything relative to that. That's the apex of your physical intimacy with a man. So it is sparking some shit. Had you been hooking up

with tons of dudes, if I had already been, like, handsome, but I don't think it would have been thrilling. It's like something I deeply remember in a moment of crisis. Right. It's exactly that.

That was 10 years away from my first sexual experience. My first sex, which is so wild. But also here's to late bloomers. I love being a late bloomer for many reasons and also feel robbed. It's like a combination of things that I write about a lot. I got my teenage years and my 20s to really focus on my friendships and my career and my life. And I wasn't having traumatic sexual experiences and embarrassing things you're supposed to do, but I wasn't doing that. So I wasn't full of hormones and chemical.

I was, and I was like taking that out on my male friends, lol. But those years were wonderful. And then by the time I had my first kiss, which I was 28 at my first kiss, which was the day Osama bin Laden was killed, I remember it. That's not that it made me horny. It was random. How come intertwining these traumatic experiences? Well, when something traumatic happens, the pores in the brain open to remember the scenario so it never happens again or does happen again.

So it's like looking at everything really quickly to be like, okay, how do we do this again or how do we avoid this for the rest of our life? And you remember every detail. Which is why time slows down in a car accident. Anyway, I remember having my first kiss on a beach in San Diego. Can you tell us though, how do you, from the time you and I had lunch,

where you're committed to stay this course, what happens between there and the first kiss? It didn't sneak up on you, I imagine. You had made the decision. It really happened my 27th year where you see 30 down the barrel of a gun. You know, in Topanga Canyon, they call this Saturn Return, 27 to 33. In Topanga Canyon? You know, and you're evaluating all the stories that you were told that you tried to perfect in your 20s.

And then you start to audit that scenario and say, does this work for my life? Because I have one and only life. And then you start to remove and see if you can throw the bathwater and keep the baby. 27 to 33 is the refining season where you kind of step into who you really are. Ooh, I like this architecture. Yeah, very true for me. And I didn't hear about it until after the fact. I was like, well, those dates line up perfectly. But I saw 30 down the barrel of a gun. And at 27, I fell in love, psycho cross-eyed in love with one of my best friends who was 20 at the time. And he didn't know I was gay. And this was now a pattern that I could recognize. Now I'd done that six times or something. And it was the

most painful love. And I had the wherewithal to know, oh, this isn't just your best friend. You're in love with him. I'm not shitting you. I saw myself at 67 being a priest and just losing control. And I just saw my life and I go, this cannot be my life. It's a powder keg. You just finally live long enough to see the pattern and you're just like, fuck this. And I still was very much in the, I want to follow God vibes. I was stepping back from dogma and I was more, I believe in God, but we'll see. It can't be the version that I was.

It cannot be exactly the version. And there were some progressive Christian writers like Brian McLaren and Richard Rohr, who I was reading that were very influential to me. And they were very pro-gay. Then I went to a Exodus International meeting to try to gay convert. You did? Yes. Wait, what's an Exodus? So Exodus International is a now debunked, it was a gay conversion camp

slash they had meetings around America and it was to heal you from being gay. You did this at what age? 27, 26, 27. Yes. You went? I didn't go to a camp. I went to a meeting in Venice Beach at a church. And I went. So a friend of mine, his mother was like, oh, one of my dear friends was living in the gay lifestyle and he had lots of gay butt sex. And now he's married to a woman with two kids. At that time, I was like, that's my dream. I don't want to be this way because it might cost me things. So I go and meet this guy and I go into his house.

It was very interesting. He had this perfect life, this gorgeous house in Orange County on the water in the lagoon, this beautiful wife, two kids. And when I showed up, he knew what he was doing. He was taking me to this meeting. There was a look on his face like there was an invisible gun to his head.

There was no sparkle in his eye. There was no like, let's go give you a great life. Just someone white knuckling it through life. Yes. He takes me to this meeting and I'm already energetically absorbing his energy and it is bad. It's not the future you want. But I'm thinking that's my best case scenario is that white knuckled life. So then I go in there and the whole fucking room is that energy. And there's worship, they're singing songs. And the guy gets up there. No, I want everyone to come forward. I want you to scream out and say the name of the person that molested you that made you this way and forgive them. And I was never

molested. Everything was great. I mean, sure, my parents divorced, but my dad is amazing and raised me great. And so I'm like, oh, I wasn't molested. But then people are slowly trickling up, some are not. The energy in the room was so zombie. And there's a verse in the Bible that Jesus says, which is, I come to bring you life and life abundant, and you will know the truth by the fruit it bears. If something bears bad fruit, it is not from me. That verse came into my head like a lightning bolt.

And I was like, this is bad fruit. This is rotten. That head like a lightning bolt. And I was like, this is bad fruit. This is bad fruit. This is rotten. That was such a defining moment. I had to go all in to realize that at the very bottom of the lake, you ricochet back up. It doesn't keep going. And I had to prove that to myself. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

If you dare. Sasha hated sand, the way it stuck to things for weeks. So when Maddie shared a surf trip on Expedia Trip Planner, he hesitated. Then he added a hotel with a cliffside pool to the plan.

And they both spent the week in the water. You were made to follow your whims. We were made to help find a place on the beach with a pool and a waterfall and a soaking tub and of course a great shower. Expedia. Made to travel. I can't help but be distracted by what I've seen in AA, which is it's very common for people to meet in AA, and they're hanging out by a thread. They find someone else.

They get along great. They get this notion of like, it's a bummer we never partied together. You often see people go out in pairs, and it's so fucking explosive. Obviously, you both met in recovery. I imagine this group having to peel off occasionally. It's just the wildest fucking in a hotel. Those have obviously you both met in recovery. I imagine this group having to peel off occasionally.

It's just the wildest fucking in a hotel. Shame induced, high octane. Well, and shame induced sex is so interesting. I've had a lot of gay experiences with men who love the kink. They love the shame. They love the intensity of it. And I have never been ashamed of being gay. I liked who I was and I was just trying. I used to always say this.

of being gay. I liked who I was and I was just trying. I used to always say this. My one life personal experience does not necessarily trump 3,000 years of tradition. There must be something I'm missing. Now there isn't really 3,000 years of tradition. This kind of like anti-homosexual thing is less than a thousand years old, but this is what I was taught. And I was just trying to defer to the elders. Also the Bible verse, the heart is deceitful above all things is such a fucking virus yeah seriously because it makes you doubt the truth of your heart so much the memetic self-replication of a shame-based religion that leans on you are wretched and we're here to make you you're born with the it's like so memetic and it's so viral and sad. Well, we are really, really designed to be prone and vulnerable to shame because it's how we make sure we don't get excluded. We feel it easily. We feel it deeply.

The stakes are high. We're wired for it. So if you offer somebody something that plays on that hard wiring, it's pretty sticky. Do you think, how do I say this in another way? Because I'm so tired of the bankrupt term cancel culture, but that is a shame-based reaction. It's like so fun to shame somebody and exclude them from the tribe. And it's our fear that trend or whatever that social media provides us is something we've always done. But I feel like it's mitigated by face-to-face.

Like you don't heckle. Well, but then in every old book, there's like the mob with the pitchforks and they're loving it. Well, I think once you take on the identity of the group, your own individual morality is silenced. I think if you're joining this group, it feels like consensus. Everyone seems to agree on this. I feel bolstered by the consensus. I remember the first time I ever really felt that

was after the election of Trump and just the liberal panic and the women's march and the clarity of like Republicans are evil was so viscerally clear. And then the moral panic and the incredible uprising of 2020 of Black Lives Matter. I remember I was like, wow, there is something going on in the air where I can taste it. And that was probably also exacerbated by we were all trapped in our houses and just ready to explode. Well, it's happening right now. Yeah, it's happening right now. I feel it very deeply. Another opportunity to declare.

Yeah. And the declare is demanded. Yes, it's required. The middle path is not welcomed. Yeah, it's very triggering to me. Yeah, me too. Me too. If you're not with us, you're against us.

Well, hold on. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Well, what was your reaction to 9-11? I'm lucky enough to have journaled. There would be what I thought was my reaction, but I actually wrote about four pages the day after. I guess depending on where you land on the spectrum, this will sound like a big brag,

but my whole four pages was, oh no, this is terrible, and I'm afraid we won't make the best out of this. And I think it's going to be an excuse for the government to take a lot of control. And I think it's going to justify a lot of violence. Were you at UCLA or were you done? I was one year out. It's the most beautiful moment of experience on this planet in my lifetime, which is I

went to 7-Eleven and 7-Eleven was packed and it was dead quiet in there. And people were trying to allow others to get in front of them in line. There was the deepest sense of unity that I had ever experienced. We all felt like, oh boy, here we go. We're in something now and you're my brother and we're teammates now.

So everyone's being so courteous, like in a very palpable, specific way. And I remember observing it, enjoying it, being disheartened that it takes this for that. And then I just saw that immediate fire up of the vitriol. And mind you, I'm a shallow person. If someone hurts my family, I'm going to kill everyone. But I'm not saying I'm above any of that. I was immediately apprehensive of where this was going. And I will say, you just don't know what decision led to what. Maybe it was the

perfect decision. All the decisions were made. Maybe they were perfect. I don't know. Well, as Sapolsky says, there's no free will, so who cares? I mean, everyone cares, but it's just happening. What I do know is there was a moment on planet Earth where everyone in the world was on our side, save maybe Afghanistan or the Taliban. And we had a earth where everyone in the world was on our side save maybe afghanistan or the taliban and we had a moment where everyone was watching and everyone felt for us and we could have done something that's never been done in history we could have taken the 2.8 trillion dollars we ended up spending to kill those people and we could have inundated them with opportunity i just think that would have been the most insane historical example that could have happened. There's no will for it to happen, but I guess to me, it seemed like a little

bit of an opportunity lost. Are you familiar with Thomas Friedman? I recognize it. So he is one of the major columnists for the New York Times, and he is one of the most respected people in understanding the Israeli-Palestinian Middle Eastern. And he's been doing that for like 40 years. Anyway, they had him on one of his podcasts. And in this moment, when it's very either or and the world is very busy and confusing and painful, and I have very dear friends who are screaming on both sides.

Same, people I love. People I love. And I wanna agree with them and I wanna agree with you. If I say one thing, then I'm hurting the other one horribly. And by not saying something, they're DMing me, what's wrong with you? Yeah, your silence is deafening, yeah. This man's clarity, you should get him as a guest on this show. And also to hear him speak is so delicious.

Every neural pathway is paved, like smooth pavement. Fresh asphalt. Yeah. It is unbelievable to hear him explain the dynamics what's going on who did what

and it feels so even. I want to add something to the 9-11 thing though because I feel like it was unified but for me it was scary. Oh my God, yeah. It's fine if I'm at school

because people know me at school but if we're at the grocery store then people don't know and then if I speak it's okay because I have me at school. But if we're at the grocery store, then people don't know. And they're looking. If I speak, it's okay because I have an American accent. But then if my dad speaks. God forbid you get on a plane. Exactly.

If my dad speaks and people are wondering. And I guess I'm glad we don't wear. Hijab? Yeah, or a turban. I'm hyper-evaluating fear in that time. In addition to being like, oh my God, my country was attacked. So for me anyway, it was definitely not as simple. Of course. It was very simple for me. I was a white kid who grew up in middle Tennessee, exclusively white in my neighborhood. My school was entirely white,

except for two Japanese exchange students. And then I moved to USC. This was the second week of college. I had just moved to the big city. I've never seen so many brown and black people in my life. I'm amazed. This is exactly what I wanted. But then this happens, 9-11, and I was raised Republican. It was so clear to me that it was good guys versus bad guys. The American flag was so cool to see. I was like, this is what they felt like in World War II.

I felt that for a little while. But I remember seeing protests about American imperialism and seeing just little blips of someone being like, why would they hate you this much to organize this much to destroy you? And what are terrorists up to? The little sprinkle of, but why? Well, and then also, as time goes on, learning that our previous actions in Afghanistan actually were seeds we planted. And this is what we sowed. We funded the Mujahideen and we made Osama bin Laden a real leader. Yeah.

We did that. We did that. Yeah. So then it gets more and more complicated. We also created ISIS in the wake of 9-11. We created more terrorism on accident, but we did do it. Yeah. And again, I'm not clairvoyant.

I'm not saying we didn't do the right thing. I don't know. The thing I proposed, maybe that wouldn't have worked, but I just know that we're in a 3,000 year cycle of tribal warfare. So we know what retaliation looks like. And we've never tried the explosion of love and generosity in the wake of that. And I just get curious. And then you go to the meeting and you leave there and that's the moment that you're kind of convicted that you are going to act on it. The way that I would describe it is the world is not suddenly covered in snow. It starts snowing and then you are busy doing housework and then you look out the window and you're like, oh my God, it's white outside, but it's snowing the whole time. I very much feel that the crack in

the pavement began and it just started spreading. One thing led to another thing and led to another thing. And then really the Exodus International of it all, just the crisis of like, I cannot do this. You know, you soft launch, especially for a queer kid. I remember telling my girlfriends in San Diego, we were all just being fabulous. And I said, I think I'm ready to date. And I had never said that. They, of course, had all clucked, you know, in the background for five years. They go, oh my God. And then, you know, one girl goes, I've got a guy for you. And the saying is, if you turn about two degrees, you don't notice, but in a few hours, you're 50 miles off course,

because that's major. So just that slight turn of, I think I'm ready to date. And then, and I still struggle with this. It's hard for me to tell if someone's flirting with me unless they like grab my dick because I'm so friendly and I've been so friend zoning myself forever for safety reasons that if someone's flirting with me, I just think, yeah, I'm fun. Of course you're talking to me. I have this issue a little bit as well. Yeah. Why wouldn't you talk to me? I'm great. Yeah. You have a really bad, I've observed many interactions and we walk away. I'm like, the dude loves you. And she's like, no.

I'm like, well, no, we're just friends. We're just chatting. No, let me explain. People aren't interested

in people like that. That's just not how it works. When you're horny for somebody, you're very interested. It is still to this day so hard for me to believe that. But I have a lot of internalized body shame and fear.

Like, it is hard for me to believe someone thinks I'm sexy. Even when they are like motorboating my hairy chest and they're like, they're obsessed. I am like, what is wrong with you? Well, that's the second stage of it, which Monica also has is, well, you must be lower status than I thought because you really do like

me. What's wrong with you if you like me? I know it's so, I have a whole nother fucking conversation that I have about over-therapization of just, okay, what happens when you know all the things and you're still doing it? Like, why can't we just live? The most uneducated dumb people I know are like yucking with their third kid and thriving in the country. I know. And their beautiful wife.

Anyway, let me find what the hell I was talking about. Your girlfriend's clock. Oh, so they're so excited. And then my friend Brady Bollinger, he saw me interact with this gay guy that I had met. And he goes, that guy is obsessed with you. I think I invited him over to like a group hang. And I just wanted to meet him because he was the chaplain

of the Point Loma Christian school, but he was gay and that was like famous. And I was like, I want to know a gay Christian. He comes over, I think nothing. And Brady's like, he is obsessed with you. And I go, what? No, he's not. He's like, he is obsessed with you. And I go, what? No, he's not. He's like, he wouldn't stop staring at you.

I'm like truly blank about it. Yeah. You and Monica need to go on a journey. You need to go back to that place you went to, the conversion. Yeah. So anyway, thank God for Brady. I'm on the train down from LA back to San Diego. I'm getting in at 1030 at night.

This is 2010, I think. So it's before Uber. And normally I would have a friend pick me up. San Diego train station is so easy, but it's a little late. And I go, who would pick me up? Maybe if this boy likes me, he would want to pick me up.

So I text him and I go, hey, I'm getting in on the train at 10.30. Are you free? He goes, I'm buying a bottle of wine right now. I'm taking you to my secret beach. Oh my God. He went right bullseye. My secret beach.

And it is the best secret beach. It's like truly. I'm douching now. I'll pick you up in 15 minutes. Yeah, yeah. And then so I'm like, oh my God, he does like me. Right then I get a push notification on my phone. Osama bin Laden's been killed.

And then there was one news site back in the day, 2010, that had live feed news on your phone. Andama bin Laden's been killed. And then there was one news site back in the day, 2010, that had live feed news on your phone and it was Al Jazeera. I turn it on, boom, it's Obama walking out. Someone stood up on the train and yelled. Tonight at 12.13 p.m. Wow.

We killed Osama bin Laden. Monica hates when I do him, but I think it's pretty good. It's very good. Thank you. Jed Dyle, I hope you kiss tonight. The problem is, because then it won't stop. Jed, if. Jed and I, I hope you kiss tonight. The problem is, because then it won't stop. Jed, if you can hear me,

I hope you kiss tonight. You deserve to. I killed him for you. He represented everything that stood in your way. That is very much what I heard. And that was the moment that I was like, oh my God, I've been kissed. And you went to a beach and you drank wine and had a kiss.

This sounds pretty. It's worth the wait a little bit. And I remember, while I'm kissing him, I was like, I'm so glad And you went to a beach and you drank wine and had a kiss? Yes. That is lovely. It's worth the wait a little bit. And I remember while I'm kissing him, I was like, I'm so glad this isn't my 15-year-old brain. My 28-year-old brain is so grateful and so here and I know who I am. You weren't panicked. That is nice. I just liked it.

It was very sweet. I love that. I wish we had video of that kiss. I know, ring cameras. Rob, do you have any video of this I can watch? Okay, now let's talk about your parents a little bit

because one of the sales pitches about Jed before you meet him, it precedes you. It certainly did with Kristen, my friend Jedediah Jenkins. His father was,

we've even talked about it on here. Yeah, we called you. Yes, yes, yes. I think on Connie's episode.

His father is what Forrest Gump was based on, which is a very funny thing to hear. You're like, what part? Like what part? Yeah, there's a lot of parts. Damaged legs, struggles in school. Lots of options. We don't need to go through them all.

Fell in love with somebody who died. My brother did have black braces when he was born. Oh, wow. Interesting, I've never made that connection. But the part that is loosely. Forrest Gump, you know, it's touching on all these major moments

of American history and somehow Forrest Gump was in the middle of all of them. That's like the delicious idea of that movie. So there's the part of the movie

that you may remember where Forrest Gump runs across America back and forth and then all these people accumulate and he's got this long beard and this hat

and all of America is cheering him on for doing this. Doesn't he wipe his face and then be happier? And it creates the smiley face, yeah. That's such a genius movie. It's so good. That movie holds up, I think.

God, I'd love to rewatch. It's darker than you remember. I watched it with Lincoln and we loved it, but I had a lot of explaining to do about- Yeah, Jenny. Jenny. Why are they burning her house down? Well, her dad molested her.

Why is she dying? She has AIDS. She was an intervening drug user. You know, like, you got to hit them with some major shit. That's true. Why is the principal going in the mom's house? Because he's fucking the mom so that he can go to school. Wow.

I said it much softer, but I had to explain all this. There's a lot to explain. Anyway, that scene is based on the phenomenon of my parents walked across America in the 70s. Back then, you know, it was very monoculture. There's three channels. If something's happening, everyone knows about it. You got Time Magazine, you got National Geographic. And they were on the cover of National Geographic. It was a big thing. And then they wrote books about it, A Walk Across America and The Walk West. And it sold like 12 million copies, which

now the biggest book sells 1 million copies. I was going to say, I think McConaughey's got the most successful memoir of the last 30 years and it sold 3 million. So even today when I read that it had sold 12 million, I'm like, that's insane. Yeah, it was insane. So I grew up in the shadow of parents who had done something major, but I also grew up in the shadow of parents who divorced when I was very young, and their love story was very Brangelina, like loved. Although I guess Brangelina was controversial. What's a loved? Started out controversial. Yeah, but they were darlings of America.

Maybe Will and Amy. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Oh my God, that gap ad. We're still with Ball. No one was the bad guy. I'm just like, they liked them as a couple. Yeah. So they divorced when I was very young. I don't remember the divorce. I'm just like, they liked them as a couple. Yeah. So they divorced when I was very young. I don't remember the divorce. I don't remember the drama. So much of it was tied to their relationship that the book deals kind of dried up, the speaking engagements dried up. So I kind of grew up in a fallen Camelot energy, but my dad lived on a farm and he was like a gentleman farmer. And like always, we were feeding the cows. It was a very fun way to grow up. He

wrote other successful books, but. But, you know, it's one of those eat, pray, love experiences where you just blow it out the water and then everyone remembers you for that thing, which is a very interesting fame conversation.

I'm sure you've had it many times on this show where an artist or someone can accidentally hit the zeitgeist so hard that they're cursed, like Daniel Radcliffe. You can make the best movie ever and it's so unlikely

that people are ever going to stop calling you Harry. Yeah. Like how annoying. No, he would have to be in a franchise of equal size. Yes. Good luck. So anyway, monoculture, that was a very cool moment of the Forrest Gump movie because that was something that I understood of like,

oh, wow, that's cool. Was there a little bit of a heyday when that movie came out? Did it kind of bolster? Yeah, I mean, there was some chatter, but I was 12. I'm sure my dad did some interviews, but it was also hurtful to my mom again because my mom isn't featured in that at all.

Right, I was just gonna say, because we already said like, your dad, your dad, and you're saying your dad and your mom did. They wrote it together. Yeah. Yeah, and they did the walk together. Well, the second half of the walk together.

He walked from New York to New Orleans first. Yes, met her. And they walked across the West for three years. A big impetus of my new book is understanding my mom's experience on the walk. Because I always felt that. It's like, oh, your dad's doing another college commencement speech. No one even knows who I am. Yeah.

And he's the one whose infidelity caused us to get a divorce. I'm over here raising three kids by myself. Right. And he's now the hero. So I grew up with that taste. I just wanted to know what it was like. And she had enough distance and she's thriving in her seventies. Maybe she can talk about it without the sting because she was very good about not bad-mouthing my dad growing up. So admirable. It's so difficult now knowing how gnarly it was.

And we lived in a small town south of Nashville called Columbia and they were the celebs. The Columbia Herald would post their divorce proceedings. They had like a reporter in the- Oh my God. Because my dad fought her for custody.

I mean, I was little, but it was nasty. Yeah. All these things I don't know. So interesting way of being raised where my parents were always home because they were writers. So I don't know what it's like to have a parent go to work. Right. And your dad was just kind of independently wealthy at this point. Well, they had made good money from the books, but then the book deals dried up. And so by the time my brain was online, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, we did not have

money. But they had big farms and we had a nice house. But going to Applebee's was online, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, we did not have money. But they had big farms and we had a nice house. But going to Applebee's was once a week and that was fancy after church. And going to the movies was a big deal. No planes, flew nowhere, camped. I grew up cutting coupons. But I would just hear the faint stories of, back when they sent us a limousine to drive us to Amy Grant's house

for the Good Morning America interview. And I was like, what are they talking about? Yes, yes, yes. Now in my adult life, I have a scarcity mentality with money to where I want to keep my expenses so low. Like I live in a 600 square foot cabin in Beachwood. My car is paid off cash.

I have no debt. Because I'm always like, the book deals could dry up. I have friends who are very successful. The hedonic treadmill is so interesting to observe from below it where their life becomes so expensive that they're stressed again. Their monthly output is my annual input, and they're stressed about keeping it there, keeping it there. For sure. It's unavoidable. It's the way the human brain works, but it's so interesting to observe from this city.

Do you think that experience put a premium on fame? Like, was it something that you then thought, I want that? Or that you could sense it was missed? Yeah, that it's a real thing that can happen because they have experienced it, but it's also elusive. Well, I grew up where my parents,

I didn't think about it. Like, they weren't famous to my friends. My peers didn't care who they were. And people in restaurants weren't stopping. No, never, never, never. But I was worse though, if they have that story where you're hearing about this remember when fantasy time before you, by the way. So it's like this glamorized time. Yeah. I remember as a young kid, and maybe this is common, I cared about being rich. And I remember my brain was always like, if I could get a million dollars once,

then I could live on $30,000 a year for this many years. I have the exact same brain. I know the shoe's always gonna drop, so I gotta be safe. You're hiding your identity. Everything is like, this is illusion. You could achieve something tangible that would alleviate all fear. Yeah, I'd be so curious about the imposter syndrome

of your minds, because for mine, it was so predicated on my sexuality and the imposter syndrome of your minds, because for mine, it was so predicated on my sexuality and the gotcha fear of someone finding out. Like if someone finds out who I really am, they're gone, gone, gone, gone. Because back in the day, in the nineties, if someone was outed as gay, it was done. You were so fucked. And so that's the world I'm growing up in. I'm so fearful of it. And I know that I am, I know what the word is. And so that's the world I'm growing up in. I'm so fearful of it. And I know that I am. I know what the word is. And so every friendship I make is one day they're going to find out and leave me. Even my family, one day they're going to find out and leave me. So I have this, how can I

be okay? That's them waiting for the shoe to drop. Which I think is a big reason why I'm like a confessional memoirist. And I want wanna say everything all the time to everybody. And I tested that over the years. People like me still and they still wanna be in my life and they love me and they deeply love me. And so it's almost an act of rebellion to be completely a wide open book. Totally.

Yes. And specifically, I would argue, and I think this is something we both do, is beat you to the discovery of our selfishness or our triteness or our vanity. Like, I'm going to be ahead of you in this. There's no gotcha moment. Yes. The fear of the gotcha is like so much.

I think a lot of people behave that way romantically. It's like, you're going to realize I'm not that great. So let me just fuck this up now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Preemptively. Okay. So that's the story of your parents. And

what obviously compounds your relationship with your mother is that she still is deeply religious and conservative. I also want to say for the record, I've hung out with your mom in her kitchen in Nashville and she's awesome. She is fucking awesome. It's so obvious where you get your charisma from. Well, I've never met your dad. He's probably quite charismatic as well. But your mother is a party. Yes. She's so inclusive and inviting and warm and hospitable and wonderful. But she also believes you should drink colloidal silver

and she has different politics than you. On the key beliefs, political, religious, philosophical, we're so divergent. And really the thing that I've fought for my whole life is my sexuality. Like, let me love who I want to love. I came from such a world where that was not okay.

And I've moved into such a world where it is so okay. I love being gay. I think it's very cool. It is a party. I have no notes. I have notes. But it's great. But there is this deep, sincere dream of a child to be not only loved by your parent, but liked

and approved of. I know parents that love their children, but do not like them. They're like, this person is annoying. And they're saying this drunken in their honesty, but they do not like it. And the kid can feel that. They can feel unconditional love, but they can feel lack of like. They can be liked and approved of. They could be a successful doctor and this and that, and they love them, but they do not like their kid's personality. My mother loves me unconditionally. And is charmed by you. And is charmed and likes me so much. We have the best hangs, but she does not approve of my worldview. So it's this really interesting, like I crave the next level. I'm like, give it to me. But I keep always diminishing the intensity of the lack of approval, A, because I hate confrontation and B, I'm a tragic optimist.

But the day you get married, the person you choose to spend your life with, that's meant to be one of the best days of your life. And the fact that she's not going to be there is so heartbreaking to me. Yeah. But no, but it just is. I'm hearing Gabor. Gabor. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, but it's a bummer. It's such a bummer. She's my favorite person. Yeah. The origin of this book, Mother Nature. Mother, comma, nature. Mother, comma, nature was A, just when your mom turns 70, it's weird. That's like an old lady.

Yeah. And my mom is very vivacious. She'll live to be 140. Pull that fucking silver. Colloidal silver like fucking works. No, so many of her witches brew things work. Or, you know, it's probably just her DNA, but how annoying. Placebo, but works.

But the feeling of her power over me still, I'm 40 years old. I think we should say too, for the record, your father in a very dad-like moment said to you out of nowhere while showing you the house he was building, by the way, if you get married to a man, I would love to walk you down the aisle. He did. Now let's move on. So this beam. And he did not look me in the eye.

It was shoulder to shoulder. Middle of showing me like a wood beam. And he just says it randomly. And what was so funny is I have so many protective measures up against sentimentality over my own desires that I would have never even asked for that permission. I wouldn't have thought to. But the moment he did, it unlocked something that was so emotional to me. I wanted to point that out. There's no unfinished business on that journey with your father, just with your mother.

Correct. And I just wanted to interrogate that. And people know that I'm very open about that challenge with my mother and her faith, but also how much I love her. We travel together a lot. And I very much post her on the internet and lots of people are like, she's my favorite person.

And so I got quite a few people, my friend, Kenny, my mom's best friend, Glenda saying, you should write a book about relationship with your mother just because it's interesting. What is that? How can you, especially in a world where families are ripped apart by politics, by religion, they're no longer speaking to each other. The amount of queer people I know who have no relationship with their family is a lot. How about just liberals who don't have a relationship? Yeah, liberals. I mean, especially in the last seven years and this moment in time of just

intense vitriol towards people you perceive to be other and the fact that we can have such profound otherness and the intensity of that relationship and still have a good time let's just look at it i'm not going to tell you what it is i'm just going to show it to you and you can take from it what you will i can't recommend writing memoirs enough maybe you do this by having a podcast, but creating a narrative story out of your life and figuring out how it fits together in a structure is so profound for healing because you're no longer just, it's not life happening to you. You are directing your life. You're framing it. And it gives you a sense of control and authorship and ownership and autonomy.

Well, there was something I learned when I worked for Invisible Children. You're promoting child soldiers. We were promoting child soldiers. And we worked with escaped child soldiers to help them rehabilitate. And one of the things that the therapists from the UN did was they would have them reenact their own abduction with the other boys. Very Scientology. And at night, really? Yeah, they do that. To get to the... They recreate their trauma. The Engram? I forget the name of it. Well, that was a real divergence he's dropped a bomb and i've always thought there must be something great in scientology there's stuff i

don't know anything about it i only know leah remini exactly but anyway they reenact and the weirdest thing is these boys are cackling laughing they were abducted at 11 and then forced out in the yard to shoot their mom but they reenact their abduction. And what these therapists say is that the subconscious fear of chaos, of having no control, is what causes such unlimited PTSD. Instead of you happening to life, life happened to you in a way that ruined it. And so to go back and write over that memories by recreating it, and you just pave another pathway.

One of the reasons that people with PTSD have such horrible nightmares, I'm quoting this therapist, so I hope I got it right, is one of the reasons we dream is your brain is putting memories into the drawer. So it's like, this goes here, this goes here. And it's like filing cabinet things. So one of the reasons PTSD is so nefarious to someone's experiences a it deprives you of sleep because when your brain tries to take that memory and put it in a drawer your body is so afraid of it that it wakes you up so you can't sleep you wake up screaming because your brain's just trying to put it in the drawer and it can't so these reenactments help your brain

have another pathway to get it to the drawer is this idea. Oh, I like that. It was so amazing to see these therapists do this with these child soldiers. The reason I bring up that analogy is going back and creating a frame and a narrative, things that haven't been seen from 30,000-foot view. You get to be the writer of the experience. You're writing the thing that happened to you, which does something. Can I add a layer, too? Because I'm finding this to be the case when I write about my childhood is you have no choice but to tell the other participant's story. I'm ashamed to admit how little energy and time I have put into telling, say, my brother's story

until I was forced to do it because it won't work as a story if I don't. And then in writing this stuff about my brother, I'm like crying uncontrollably and calling and telling him he did a good job. It also forced me to do that, which I think is really powerful. That's such a good point because one of the major questions I get when writing memoir is how do I write honestly about family members? They're alive and they will definitely read this if it gets published. How do I tell the truth? You start with the elephant analogy to address this kind of, right? Yeah, I'll give it a second. But everything I write, I imagine I'm telling the story with my mom in the room, but I'm telling it completely accurately to where she can say, I didn't say that. And I have receipts.

Yeah. Because what's going to happen is, especially when you write a memoir that's going to be published, the publisher says, you need written permission from this person. There's so many pieces to a book coming out and that tale is so long that if a lawsuit comes down in the 11th wire and ruins your release date, there's an injunction. It's fucked. So they want to avoid that.

So anyone you speak of disparagingly, you either have to change the facts so dramatically that they don't recognize it's them or get their written permission. You can't just tell it exactly like it is and change a name or change the relationship? If you're writing about Donald Trump or a public figure, you can. If it's a private figure, the lawyers will be pretty, I mean, if you change their gender and their job and the state

they live in and their name, you're probably fine. But if it's your mother and you change her name from Glenda to Brenda, they'll be like, no. So having to do do that and my publisher gave me the best advice he said write it as true as you remember it and then give your mother the manuscript and say mom if it's true I'm printing it but I want you to change anything that I said you said that's untrue go in and redline

the whole thing so it gives her power and she made some changes and what's so amazing is she made changes to make it more Christian and more exactly her, which was perfect. And it gave her agency. And there's this quote that I read about Jack Kerouac. It was a professor talking about him. And he said, he writes about drug addicts and beatniks and all the things. And he said he never had a mean thing to say about anyone. I love my mother. I have nothing mean to say.

Also, it does help. Your mother is an exhibitionist. She did walk across the country. She did write books. She's not a private person. No, she brought you into this game. Well, and that's where I'm not prescriptive in this book of like, do this to have your mom love you.

Because I remember one of my gay friends, he was just like, you're so lucky that your mom has redeeming qualities. My mom is funny and loving. She might believe everything different than me, but she will crack the funniest joke you've ever heard. Or she'll lighten the mood when something becomes too intense. She'll just look at a funny bird and point at it just to keep it rolling, where some people are so intense and righteous, and that's their experience. You know, one thing I was thinking when you were laying out some of the differences between you at the beginning of the book, I would say that your relationship with your mom a little bit mirrors mine and my brother's, which is we love each other so much, but we're really politically different.

And I've just learned to just not talk about that. That drives us apart and there's other things that pull us together. And I'm not betraying my side of anything by not having that fight with him. I'm not falling short of some ideal I have. In the modern intensity of the discourse, that's what we're told you must do. If someone does not fully align, then you are betraying your convictions and the community of marginalized people that need you to save them at every moment. I'm so against it. This is a rough place to live. I think about the word civilization. It's civil, civil society.

A civil engagement is just, I'm going to treat you with respect and we're not going to agree on everything, but let's be civil about it. No personal insult. I've been saying this a lot lately that most people who think like that are not marginalized at all.

So they've never been in the position that you are in where you have to decide, am I excommunicating my mother? Or am I going to figure out a way to live peacefully with her? Can I be this hardcore and have the life I want? Yes. I think the moral purification is so fascinating. And what's so funny is it's so old.

It's religion. Evolution takes a long time. We don't change. We just put new clothes on things. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. It helps to remind myself in these situations that the reason it's so threatening for people you love to have differing beliefs is it is the signal for in-group, out-group. So here's someone I love, but they're in the out-group, my normal out-group. They're now representing somehow. And so what's really on the line isn't what president is going to be the president.

It's that you're no longer going to be in my in-group and I love you. Or I often think about the stakes between Kristen and her mom's stress over religion. When I remind myself, okay, just imagine for a second that you really believe that I'm going to heaven. And now let's believe that my two daughters aren't going to join me there. That's a heartbreak I can't even fathom. I have a lot of empathy for that. It doesn't sway me to her point of view, but by God, the notion that I'll be living eternally somewhere and you won't join me, the stakes couldn't be higher. Yes, I'm going to continue to argue with you. Everything my mother does that drives me nuts is her loving me in her way. That reality check of

stepping into the worldview of someone else, which I understand, you can't do that when you feel under attack. There's a reason why we like freak because anger pushes you to safety. But once you are at a safe distance, like me moving all the way to California, LOL, and you can look back and see them as a human, you realize what you're doing

and you realize what they're doing. I feel like so many people stay in that fight or flight mode and they're so triggered or, as my friend Ruthie says, activated. I love that difference. Have you heard that? No, but I like that. Instead of saying triggered,

which means something's happening to you. Well, trigger is now a triggering word. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I say aroused. It's exactly that, which is so great. Wait, what's the elephant? I start the book with this parable of the elephant and the blind monks.

Have you heard it? Ed Yong also maybe talks about this. It's akin to the marshmallow. It's pretty ubiquitous. I'll let him explain it. The elephant comes to the village. The blind monks have never heard of such a thing. They all go to touch it.

They surround it. And their brain is filling in what they think it is. On the way home, they're talking about it. And one of the monks is like, oh, my God, this giant beast made of bone. And the other one who touched the ear is like, what are you talking about? It was like a bat. And the other one's like, it's a furry.

And they start arguing. The power of meeting it was so moving and the grumble of it. They're moved by their experience that was true for them. So now they're offended at the other person for basically calling them a liar. And so they fight. So one of the fun things I did in this book,

which I don't ever say, is that the chapter headings, I drew the monsters as the monks see them as the chapter headings. So it's like a bunch of Pokemon monsters, but they're elephant monsters. I love the drawings, and I was wondering if you made them.

Yeah, I did. Oh, they're great. Let's take one second to go. As smart as you are, as educated as you are, you are also feeling one part of the elephant. That is the most important metaphor. Exactly. As an educated, liberal, juris doctorate, annoying, whatever I am, it is so hard for me to accept that.

I know. Because you actually put a lot of effort into seeing the whole elephant in your mind. Yes. But I believe I am not seeing the whole. I bought my mom this like vintage locket with an elephant on it. I got it on Etsy and I put a picture of us in it and I gave it to her and I got one for myself. I actually had a jewelry designer make this because I want people to give them to that one family member that comes to mind

and put a picture of the two of you in there because it's just a reminder to see the whole elephant. And then you might be reminded to think of that in the news, in the whatever it is. You have one perspective that is limited and very limiting. I mean, Sapolsky taught me this. Jonathan Haidt taught me this. Even Carlo Rovelli's book, The Order of Time.

Have you read it? No. It is horrific. It is 90 pages. It looks like a bathroom quote book. And it is just him explaining what we currently know about time. What does he like? He's a like astrophysicist.

He's major. And this book is so simple and it's got drawings and he's just explaining what we know. Like the only reason that time exists is the transference of heat. Time is heat going from hotter to colder or colder to hot. But anyway, he's explaining to this and I'm feeling my brain come out of my nose and dribble down.

And basically the crux of the book is reality is counterintuitive. The way our brains evolve to understand reality is purely based on survival. The fact that we've gotten this far is very lucky. Our intuitions are not true. Yes. And so I remember thinking that as a 12-year-old. You know like when you're a kid and your brain starts to think big thoughts and you're like, has anyone else thought this ever in history?

I was laying in bed thinking about eternity, duh, and space. And I remember imagining hurtling through space. And I was like, there is no way space is infinite. I can't picture infinite. So it must have an end. So I imagine getting to the end of space and I'm floating there.

And then I see the wall. And then I think, well, there's gotta be something on the other side of the wall. Of course, of course. Yes. So then I remember realizing, oh, the truth must be something unknowable to my mind. Yeah, the capacity. We don't have it. It's like asking a chimpanzee to fly an aircraft.

It's not going to happen. They're not, they don't know what you're doing. Yes, I know. Any attempt I find very unsatisfying, even the physics attempt. Yeah. The Big Bang. Okay, but what was before the Big Bang? You know, pure light. From where? And then you go, oh, I see, this is a fool's errand. My little monkey brain's never going to whip this. I'm not going to waste any more time contemplating it. I've freed myself from that. The large hydrogen or whatever collider thing. Yeah. That thing exists.

It has billions of dollars. They built tubes in the Denmark field. And I'm like, I don't know what they're doing. I look at it on 60 Minutes. I'm like, what is this? Right. The super collider. What is that?

But I don't even know how a car engine works. You're like way ahead of me. I'm like, how did this start? Okay. So what's great about the book, I don't know if explicitly you think this, but what is really beautiful and it's kind of a call to action certainly was to me is if you get really just honest and you take inventory of, okay, how often do I go visit my parents? In your case, it's like twice a year. How old is my mom? She's 70. What's the average age of a woman in America? 76. So wow. 12 more times. That's's when I'm gonna see this person who raised me?

That seems a little light. Yeah. Yes, and then you find this great hack, which again, you're not giving advice, but just by living your life the way you are, it's such great advice, which is you found out years ago that if you hang with your mom and there's a buffer, it works beautifully.

A diffuser. This happened by accident where my mom was coming to visit me and she brought her friend, Pam. Pam is a boomer delight. She's like so fun. She was on the dating apps. She was thriving. And I only go home to see my mom for holidays

with the family. So I'm with her and it's so intense. She wants to cook me every meal. She wants to do my laundry. She's like watching me. I'm like on my phone and she's asking me a million questions. And she's like, you really love your phone. And I'm just like, I know all she wants to do is love me. But even just that interaction is making my skin crawl. So then she comes to visit and she brings her friend

and I've never seen her be a friend where they are ripping on each other, cackling, laughing, having the time of their lives. She's a human all of a sudden. She's a human. And then Pam would ask me the exact same question my mom might ask. But for some reason, I want to answer Pam's question. Right. It didn't hit any buttons. Of course. Yeah. I'll tell her everything. And then my mom is sitting there listening. And then she'll be like, wow, he's never told me that or whatever. And it's just this amazing thing. And we had the best hangs, the best experiences. And we had so much fun. And I got this memory with my mom.

And I got to see her in this way, being funny and sweet and the butt of a joke and the jokester. Well, you got to see her at the center of her life. She's not ever at the center of her life in your story. She's your mom. She's a piece of your life. Yes, satellite staring at you. It's a way to see her as she's the center, you're her son. It's so sweet because I think most people don't really experience that. My whole childhood, it wasn't like they were cackling in the den having wine. My mom was just my mom running around taking kids to school. It didn't cross my mind that she was a 20-year-old girl who got older. Yeah, exactly. Yes. And so you turn this

realization into a trip to the Alps, which is hysterical. What's the woman? I wrote it down. Glenda. Glenda. So you, Glenda, and your mom, you go all over the Alps. You drive around. It's a huge success. This interview is going to be seven hours long. But one part that really struck me that I liked about it was you talking about stealing a moment for yourself and going out of the Mediterranean and walking on some pebbles and having the moment where you think this is for something. Why does everything have to be for something? And I was just thinking that we have really great framing for that mental debate. And I think it's Kahneman, which is you have two selves. So is that trip your experiential

self's favorite thing? No, but you're also servicing your narrative self. It's just as important to you. So are you the type of son who takes his mom and her girlfriend out? I think it's easy in those moments to compare it to your experiential self and go, this isn't really that fun for me, or it's not what I might want to do, but I have to do it. As opposed to just going like, no, now I'm in narrative mode and this is very fulfilling and the objective is exactly what's happening. Well, and double helixing your life with those two modes is so important. Yes. Checking in on both of them. Are you pure narrative? Because you've met people who become doctors and lawyers. And they're miserable. And it's pure narrative. Yes. Pure experience. And then they're in their mid-50s or they're dead at 27 and they're like whoops i

think the growth for both of us would be when you're in those zones shut off the fucking hater and just be in the zone and go no no i fluctuate between these two zones i don't need to contrast them with each other all the time it's funny and i don't know if you've felt this in your writing part of the narrative self for me is also I am a memoirist. And so I can't get too enlightened. Right, right, right. I need to still hate myself and feel shitty. I need to stay messy.

That sounds like I could actually be too enlightened. I don't think I can. I am also like an Enneagram 7 visceral Sagittarius, Topanga Canyon. Let's say it this way. I think the arc of self-actualization versus the arc of drama are going in opposite directions. My best state when I'm working a program perfectly and someone irritates me and I get a resentment and I do my inventory and I realize it's about this fear

from a long time ago and we don't need to have that resentment. Well, what I've really done, the goal of all this would be really to have to reduce this terrible friction I have with other people. And what is story other than friction and drama? So I relate to that a lot. I think like if I wait too long to write anything,

you gotta be a little resentful of people to write about. You gotta have these things. There's gonna be a reason to read it other than just in Oprah's grove. Yeah, like all these things happened to me and I was never affected by them because I'm so self-actualized. Great. Why did I read this?

I guess people want to get there. But there's a punchline to this. So you have great success with that trip to the Alps. And then your mother suggests for the next trip that you guys take a cruise. Will you explain to Monica the cruise? Because I think this is incredible. The cruise is the dream deferred. So my mom and I have wanted to

go on a cruise together for years. We love cruises. This is a question I would like to ask the audience, which is what is something panned by your community that you love? Malls. Great. Mine is cruises. Like I am a nature person. Picture me, I'm camping, I'm in the dirt and I want to go on a cruise. So that was a dream of ours for a long time. So then COVID hits. A lot of people did this inventory of bucket lists of their life. Like, oh, well, what am I going to do now? And she wants to do a cruise.

So she goes, Jed, I get this email. It's like May 2020, okay? LA is in hazmat suits. In Tennessee, they're like licking each other. She's like, there's a cruise. Starts in Venice, goes to Israel. It goes all around Greece and Crete and whatever. And I'm like, this sounds great.

I've never been to these places. And she's like, I'll book the tickets now and I'll pay for yours. And I'm like, wow, that's so nice. And then she goes, one catch, don't be mad. And I'm like, okay. She goes, it's a Glenn Beck cruise. No, are you serious?

This is so spectacular. Not only is it a Glenn Beck cruise, it's a Glenn Beck cruise to discover the foundational elements of faith and democracy. Hello. So you're going to get, it's going to be one long lecture. So it's going to be one long lecture. He speaks every day and then it ends in Israel where he's interviewed by Bill O'Reilly. The grand finale is Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck chatting in Israel. My immediate arousal activation is I would rather die. My second is all of these old people are going to get COVID, which is maybe good for evolution.

My third thought is this would be the best thing to write about in history. Oh, my God, yes. So now I've clicked over to narrative self, and I'm like, yes, mother, yes. I love this about you. But what's so funny is that this is a boat, a huge boat, full of certainly non-vaxxed humans. Italy is you can't come here without a vax. Right.

And Israel. And Israel. And they're trying to do this in November of 2020. Oh my God. No, no, no. I'm sorry. November of 2021, because that's when the vax existed. And I'm like, mom, this is not going to happen. And she's like, well, I'm praying, power prayer. So anyway, she starts to email to be like, hey, is there an update? It's now August. I have not heard from the cruise company. Not one word. Europe is locking down. Omicron. So then my mom starts hail marrying in the emails. She's like, I am a woman in her 70s. I spent all my savings on this. Like, I'm going to go destitute. She sends them like 20 emails. She's got a paper trail. There's

not a word. She's given them like 10 grand. Oh my God. And then a month before the cruise was supposed to leave, still no word. She sends a final thing like, I'm going to have to find a lawyer. And she just gets her credit card refunded. No. And they never said a word again. And then I say, mom,

I'm going to write about this in the book. And she goes, I wish you wouldn't. I don't want to bad mouth Glenn Beck. Well, Barb, I can't imagine he was overseeing the email communications. That's true. We could cut him that allowance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He imagine he was overseeing the email communications. That's true. We could cut him that allowance. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He probably wasn't involved at all. I think I'm really fair to Republicans and conservatives, and I have lots of Republican and conservative friends I really, really love. But I will say Glenn Beck is out of that circle for me, and is Bill O'Reilly. Those two are kind of out of that circle. So that, to me, would be a very rough cruise. I love that you were going to go on it. Yeah, me too.

It sounds like a vice column. No, yeah. The moment that this cruise comes back on, I hope that they let circle. So that to me would be a very rough cruise. I love that you were going to go on it. Yeah, me too. It sounds like a vice column. No, yeah. The moment that this cruise comes back on, I hope that they let me. You have to. Because I've been public about it. But I'm ready because A, the staff, I can't wait to smoke cigarettes with them secretly

and talk about everything. Also, I want my mom to find a husband. What a dream. She's like on a love affair, love boat. Hello. I'm just picturing there's so many things that could happen. Yeah, yeah. Opportunity abounds.

And I love a boomer conversation. I love it. Yeah. Okay, so in place of that. So then that is finally canceled and I'm like, well, I've got this time that I want to spend with my mom. I'm excited to make this memory with her. Also COVID is killing older people.

So now I'm extra desirous of spending time with my parents. And I've gone on adventures like this with my dad. I was raised, like when I graduated college, we did a motorcycle trip across America. We've done these things, but not with my mom. And I'm thinking, well, I've always heard my dad's perspective of the walk. It's so famous, but what's my mom's?

I pitched this. I'm like, mom, we're not doing the cruise. What if we retrace your walk across America on a mother-son road trip? She goes, oh, I would love that. Let me fish out my journals. I had never known. She had a journal of every day for three years from age 29 to 32. Every day of her first three years of marriage and love with my dad. Having been swept off her feet in New Orleans. Swept off her feet on this great adventure, interviewed by magazines, followed by National

Geographic. It's in her own words at the time, like your journal from 9-11. Like she could have never remembered it the way she said it. And then we're going to these places which she hasn't been back to for 40 years because it's so activating for her. And we're going to these towns

and she's seeing them and reading from her journal. And it was very profound. And seeing her as a 30-year-old. Yes. In her own words. How special. I really am curious for your Yes. In her own words. How special. I really am curious for your daughters. In the modern world now for Gen Alpha and below, there's so much footage.

Hopefully it doesn't just disappear in the cloud. You could really see your parents and hear your parents talk in every stage of their life millions of times, which is very cool. I will say those videos are even so powerful for me. It doesn't happen often, but twice a year we're in bed and we go down a little rabbit hole of watching videos from when they're little. I kind of have the opposite problem,

which is I have so much self-negative talk and so much disappointment in myself and never hitting my goals. But I see those videos and I was like, I'm holding that baby. Half the videos are me dancing with Lincoln as a baby. I'm so glad that exists because I've already backfilled. But I could have done better and I should have that baby. Half the videos are me dancing with Lincoln as a baby. I'm so glad that exists because I've already backfilled.

But I didn't do that enough. I could have done better and I should have been better. So in that way, it's helpful to my own narrative. It's so hard to stay on topic. But I'm so happy that we're living in this moment and I'm thinking 10 years out. One of the things I miss the most is my grandmother's voice. She was so fucking funny and so cool. And she died in 2010.

There's very few clips and I don't remember it sometimes. And I'm thinking, my parents are writers and there's a lot of footage of them speaking and audio books. And I can feed that into AI. And it's also their words. And I can like, when I'm 80, ask my mom a question.

What would you do, mom? And my mom's voice will come out and be like, hey, honey. First step, have some colloidal silver. I want to also feed it all of her voicemails because that will be

so nostalgic to me. So we go on this road trip and it's retracing her steps and it's so profound to see her eyes and little moments. I'll like see her face as a 30-year-old,

like a twinkle, which if your parents walked across America, take them on this road trip. Couldn't recommend it enough. 10 out of 10. And it's so honoring to a parent. Certainly most kids don't ever actually look back and be like, wow, look what you did. And especially if it's complicated and they have a lot of reasons to be hurt by it. I think about the narrative self of, I want to be proud of the son that I was. Yes.

And the person that I am in general. I just want to be proud. And I am. You should be. It feels good. I asked you if you would read a little bit of the book to us because we had Sedaris do it and it was so fun. And you're so charismatic.

And I would like to hear a little bit. Based on the vibe, I need to figure out what is the right zing. You know, at certain times during this, you don't not look like David Beckham. Are you picking any of that up, Monica? It's hard because we just saw Jim Rash in a thing. Do you know Jim Rash? No. He's a comedian.

He's so funny. He also wrote Sideway. Oh, The Descendants. Oh, my God. Love. Yeah, he's incredible. He was also the principal in Community. Oh, I knowcendants. Oh my God. Yeah. Love. He's incredible. He was also the principal in Community. Oh, I know who that is.

You guys have the exact same voice and you don't look dissimilar either. And it throws me. The pace of the way that I speak. You know how sometimes you don't even say anything funny, but just the way you're talking, someone says, oh my God, you're so hilarious. You just said like pass the olive oil. Yeah. But it's the cadence.

A woman at the airport yesterday, I was just describing a restaurant in Echo Park. And she was like, are you a comedian? I'm like, no. No, you have a very sing-songy delivery of all thoughts. Which is my mom and my dad. Okay. This just is kind of a summary of our conversation. We've been on this road trip for four days now.

Seeing only each other. Talking only to each other. Normally, spending too much unbroken time with my mother activates my flight response. But now we're ending day four, and I'm enjoying myself. I like talking to her. I like hearing her stories. Even when she reads to me from her book or her notes,

I gobble it up. Maybe it's because I know I'm going to write about it. The curiosity of the journalist diffuses the nature of the sun. Mom is looking for our hotel reservation in her emails. It's not coming up. I glance over to her phone. The font is huge, thanks to her aging eyes. And I see her inbox.

I just see the subject line. China invasion imminent. How to prepare. Voter fraud proven, real Republican daily, and daily prayer for patriots. My mom is a conservative, but also an individual. If the government says something, she wants to believe something else. If a pastor says something she doesn't like, she'll read the Bible herself and articulate her challenge. She is the queen of doing her own research. This usually comes in the forms of health remedies, colloidal silver, chemicals in our foods,

diatomaceous earth, 5G radiation. She seems like she would be a prime candidate for QAnon, but I've made fishing statements around her and she has scoffed at the absurdity of it. Thank God. What is the tipping point where a conservative becomes alt-right? Why does someone listen to Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, but not InfoWars? And what could be said of me? Why do I love Michael Barbaro, but don't watch Rachel Maddow?

Great. That's the perspective-taking thing. You're like, well, what about me? Exactly. Because I listen to my mom listening to all these radio shows. Well, that was a really interesting thing being on the road trip is when you're driving, you know, I drive around LA alone all the time. I listen to whatever I want.

The experience of listening to something with someone who is not exactly ideologically the same as you in the car, all of a sudden, your brain hears everything new. Yes. You get very self-conscious. You're like, oh my God, they just said this or whatever. And you hear it and you would never even think about it. So trying to find something that we can both listen to

is not easy, even in PR. We did a live show with Dan Savage in Seattle. It would never cross my mind how he's talking one iota, but I invited basically my old mother-in-law and father-in-law. We weren't married, but we were together for nine years. And I fucking loved them so much.

And they came to the show. And as he was talking about the Santorum, now he invented about the cum and something else that comes out of an ass. He's letting it rip about the Santorum. And all of a sudden I just go, oh, Greg's here. Greg goes to church every Sunday. He's a vet, a firefighter. He's letting it rip about the Santorum. And all of a sudden, I just go, oh, Greg's here. Greg goes to church every Sunday.

He's a vet, a firefighter. You're right. Like, I'm not against what he was saying. It's just all of a sudden, I go like, oh, yeah, we go for it. I don't even generally notice we go for it. Yeah, that is so true. And you probably have this forced upon you by being in the public eye and having everything you say recorded. As you listen with a doublespeak of also, it's like, what the hell is the internet going to say now?

Oh, yeah. If we were just talking without microphones, there would be a different freedom. Yeah. But now you're hearing the world hear it, which is such a double entendre. I mean, and that's the experience of writing a book too. We do say stuff on here that if I were to say on the Today Show would be a headline. But you also have to remember the only people that are listening to the show are in somewhat concert with how we think. You don't stumble upon it.

It's not in a taxi cab plane when you get in. You can't really trip over this show. So in that you get a little bit of confidence that is probably naive. And occasionally it does seep out into all the regular media channels. And that's when we hear crazy stuff. And then I'm reminded of that. And then I'm disheartened by it and all these things. It's just when it permeates the bubble that we've created and it is a today show story. And then you get the full brunt. Right. You're both so vulnerable and raw on these shows. So if people

are diehard fans, you feel seen and you feel, I would assume, that's how I feel as a memoirist. In order to like my work, you have to sit for 12 plus hours and feel something. You like us, probably, if you're listening to all of our stuff. It's different than being an underwear model or something where they're dying for you and they don't know anything about you, which you've probably experienced

both sides. Well, I have. One came with no self-esteem and one does, which feels wonderful. Yeah, it have. One came with no self-esteem and one does, which feels wonderful. Yeah. It's very rare. Everybody wants that to some degree. And that's what you should get from your community. And that's, I think, one of the most insidious thefts of fame, especially young fame, is if you were famous before you were old enough to know that people like you for you, that they just like your vibe. They like the way you talk. You're funny. They just want to know you because of whatever that mystery essence is. They want to be around you and fame robs you of that. And you don't know why they're talking to you. And once in a while,

it's confirmed that there is a reason. And it's because they want to take a photo or whatever. They want their own status. Yeah. It's so destructive to the soul. Do you have rules about your kids getting into showbiz? I mean, I don't want them to be child actors because I want them to have a real childhood and then draw on that. That's what I mean. Mind you, I know a lot of child actors that have grown up incredibly wonderful and I admire them. You know, a couple of the ones that I know, and then I've seen ones that are ruined by it. I don't fucking know. I would just prefer that they have a real life to draw on before their life is largely artificial. If they were going to be writers, I would also want that for them as writers. I know.

I have one of the rare jobs where it's not cooler to be young. Like, if I hear their debut novel they wrote when they were 21, I'm like, ew. Yeah.

Yes. What could that possibly be about? What could that be about? Yeah. That's really true. I mean, and there are some genius. Of course. Spielberg somehow directed

Jaws at 23. I don't know how. He did? Yeah, we were just there and we were looking at all these sites and someone pointed that out. We'd have to fact check it, but I think that's 23. I don't know how. He did? Yeah, we were just there and we were looking at all these sites and someone pointed that out. We'd have to fact check it,

but I think that's right. I think he directed fucking Jaws at 23. So yeah, there's people, but I'm not one of them. No. I want to hear one more passage and then I've earmarked one fun dance for us potentially.

What's the longest interview you've ever given? I mean, you knew you were going to edit it, but like you just were talking forever. We've bumped up against four hours, I knew you were going to edit it, but like you just were talking forever. We've bumped up against four hours, I think. With who? I'm obsessed. Three hours for Justin Long,

I remember. Hundreds of episodes. Are you at a thousand yet? No. No, we keep pretending we are. Not a thousand. But your brain must like naturally feel the shape

of the episode as it's going. Yes? It's heavier on Monica's shoulders than mine. Yeah, I do. You feel it. I do know. And I'm like, stop it i'll stop i know i'm stopping it here well also she'll get like a her energy will change occasionally and i'll look over at her and she's fully now in editing mode and she's like we're fucked and i can feel it. And I'm like, okay, I can feel I'm making a mess for her.

That's amazing. Yeah, I try not to make a mess for her. You do a good job. I feel it. So this is a scene where I've gone to the restroom while we're checking in a hotel. And I come back to her berating, talking to the poor Indian man who works at the front. Oh, this is going to be very activating for you, Monica. Yeah.

Speaking of activating. It's very sweet. It's become a beautiful restaurant. The post and beam ceiling is gorgeous. A huge stained glass wall that I had commissioned is in a big dining room that was in the kitchen. Get your phone out and I'll put you in. You have Instagram?

She says. Yes, ma'am, I do, he says. She takes his phone, slides her reading glasses onto her nose, holds the phone at just that mom distance, and begins typing with one finger. Here it is, she says, handing it back. Oh my God. Which she did once, maybe. He is smiling. Is he enjoying this rapport or waiting for it to be over?

I can't tell. He hands us the keys to our room. I put you in our biggest room, he says. We go up the elevators and the room is gigantic. Not in a luxurious way, in a converted conference room way. The beds are a mile apart. The TV is two miles

across the room. The first half of the floor is tile, the second carpet. What kind of room is this? Mom shrieks. The bathroom door doesn't exactly close because it is a barn door on tracks that just slides over the doorway. He gave us the biggest room. It isn't exactly fancy, but I'm grateful. This is nice, she says, unpacking her toiletries and nightgown. Mind if I take up the bathroom for a minute, she says, unpacking her toiletries and nightgown. Mind if I take up the bathroom for a

minute, she asks. Not at all, I say, and she shuffles in there with her bag of things. The sliding barn door doesn't close properly and leaves a couple inches visible. I watch her fight the door. I can feel the strangeness. I should not have a millimeter of visibility into the bathroom. What if she wants to use the toilet? I turn the TV loud so she can assume I'm distracted. I choose to be distracted. There is weirdness in the air. I never heard the toilet flush.

She slides the barn door open and her face is glistening with oil. She sits in bed, kicks up her feet, puts on her reading glasses, and takes her phone into both hands. My feet stink, she says. They don't tell you that when you get old, your feet stink. This is her move. She complimented the man

about his thick, luxurious hair at the rental desk in the Alps. And you guys got a BMW upgrade. And I'm so embarrassed by the way she's communicating with these people because it feels offensive or it feels like whatever. But her jovial love, we always get freestyled.

Yeah, yeah. They aren't feeling the thing you're afraid they're feeling. Exactly. Okay, I guess I'll start with a primer question. This is the dangerous dance I want to have. Okay, great. But I think it could be equally exposing for both of us. I'm excited.

In maybe a productive way. Wait, what if I have to pee? Go pee. Yeah, I'll step out. No, you don't have to. Are you good? Okay. Shall I step in? Hold it.

Takes me a while to get it out. Unravel it. I remember I accidentally used a women's bathroom once, and I heard a woman pee for the first time. It was so much louder. It was like a thumb on a hose. I was shocked. You think it's louder than men's?

Well, I could hear the width of the spray. It was so loud. More forceful. Yes, squeezed. Yeah. Well, that's because it was probably hitting the toilet as opposed to the water, maybe. Like the way it hit.

Hard to know what the way you guys use those birds. We hit differently. We hit differently. Our pee hits differently. It does. Was that hand wash performative? Would you have done that if we weren't here? Yes.

You would have. Good. Because he's a good boy. It's forced upon me because I don't really care. Right. Yeah. My thing is my dick isn't dirty and I didn't put my hands in my urine. My hands are dirty.

Right. I wash my hands occasionally before I pee, but then I don't after. I want to keep my dick clean. Not everyone wants to touch your dick skin. My dick is very clean. It never goes outside. Yeah, it doesn't touch anything other than, but I guess there's some urine from a dribble that's on the inside.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Okay, dance time. I can't know. Okay, dance time. I can't wait. Let me start with a question. Have you seen a pattern in your own life where you are judgmental or annoyed at people that are exhibiting a character defect you also have? Yes. I will never forget, and I won't say the name.

But my friend, when I was down at Invisible Children, was like, there is this guy coming in town that is you. You are twins. You are soulmates. This person is you. When I met him at this party, the self, like, is this how I come across, was so devastating. But that's great. I mean, I love it. You know, like, that's just what life is.

I've had a few of them that really punched me in the nose. And in fact, Bradley Cooper was one to point one out. After I relapse, I won't say the name either, but he's like, kind of brings into perspective all your resentments against so-and-so for being full of shit. For lying. And I was like, oh, that's exactly what was going on.

I see another liar. Do you think that that experience is the fact that, sorry, that I just love this phrase that you've given me today. Our narrative self is actually not real or what we imagine ourself to be is this image that we think we are. And then when you find out the way people see you is divergent from that image, that it sucks. Why do we find that so activating? That I'm a hypocrite? That we are triggered by somebody who exhibits a thing we fear, that we hate things that we fear we are. Right. Well, because I think whether you're taking a thorough inventory and really admitting to yourself what

your character defects are, I think you know them. I don't think you could even articulate them, but I think you know them. Somehow your body knows them. I can tell you the one that will always trigger me, you invite 20 people over, everyone leaves, but three people and everyone sits around and talks about who they thought was annoying. It's never a consensus. It's always everyone's personal baggage. Mine is always like, oh my God, that guy needed so much attention. And that's because I need so much fucking attention. And I'm often embarrassed with how much attention I'm trying to seek. And then maybe even grodier, some competition. Like, I don't want this guy who gets all this attention because I want all the attention, you know? Delicious. Let me start by saying, I have loved you virtually from the minute I met you. You're so magical and you're so engaging

and you're so curious and you're so fun and your brain is wonderful. I've loved you just blindly since I've met you. I have been judgmental over the years that you collect celebrities, female celebrities. It's irked me. I think because I met you and you had already collected Kristen. Yeah. And then there were more that followed. And I remember it's just, I couldn't even pinpoint what my judgment is, but I just was aware of it. And I would think about it. And if I'd bump into you and you were with yet another famous woman, I'd go, wow, this is such a weird pattern. I don't understand this pattern.

But what's really interesting, it just happened today. I'm reading your book. I'm kind of learning of your relationship with your mother. And I'm recognizing I have the exact same relationship. with your mother and I'm recognizing I have the exact same relationship. I mean, my mother's not a conservative or anything, but divorced, single mom, three kids. I'm the husband she always wanted. I'm the most like my dad. So here was this version of my dad, a man she loved more than anything. And she had the opportunity to make him into the version she wanted. And she succeeded. I'm intensely loyal to her. My loyalty to her cannot be threatened

because I can't have another mom. So we have this really interesting relationship that I adore, but maybe on the outside, someone might go, this is a little incestuous or weird. But I think the gift she gave me is that through learning how to please her and attend to her and to give her what she wanted, because I had good boy issues, I'm very good at giving women what they want. Love. And if I'm being dead honest, I too collected female celebrities. I just did it sexually. Yeah. Whoa. And then I was like, oh, this is very curious. Maybe this thing I have with Jed is really just rooted in my own history, which is I have found the draw to these celebrity women irresistible. I've wanted their approval. I've wanted to learn how to make them happy.

And I too collected them. I stopped because of the nature of sexual relationships. But had I not met Kristen and gotten married, I'm sure I would have accumulated as many friends as you have, I would have accumulated sexual partners that are famous. Of course, I've noticed this pattern as well in myself. And I've been like, why? But then I am extremely psychotically extroverted social.

I have more friends in general than I know of anyone that I've ever met. Totally, you are a hub. And so by nature of that, I have ever met. Totally. You are a hub. And so by nature of that, I have lots of celebrity friends because they all hang out with each other. You live in LA. I live in LA. But I have many more friends who are not,

but it's just, you wouldn't clock those necessarily because your brain has never seen that person before. But- It's an inordinate amount. It's an inordinate amount. Yeah. Often, if I meet a female celebrity somewhere, I literally think, I bet they know Jed. And very often they do. Yeah. Yeah. Often, if I meet a female celebrity somewhere, I literally think, I bet they know Jed.

And very often they do. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've never thought about it being this like, I have thought about why do gay men

love Cate Blanchett and love all these female actresses? I do wonder, and I actually write about it a little bit in this book, it's like, why do gay men,

especially love middle-aged women? Yes, this whole mother thing. And I really do think you're onto something there where at that age, and there is some loose research that says that when a mother has a stressful pregnancy, it can have cascading effects on creating a gay son. Oh, really?

Because gay boys are obsessed with their mothers and their peacemakers because they have both genders in their mind. So they can talk to the men and they can talk to the women. Gay men are obsessed with gossip and knowing what's the tea because we're like socially obsessed. Well, your life depends on it. There's this really good reason. I would say there's definitely something there.

I would say the first celebrity friend I had was KB. Right. She's a gateway drug. She was a gateway drug. But also it's interesting that she was the first I had was KB. Right. She's a gateway drug. She was a gateway drug. But also it's interesting that she was the first I had and then it was so fun because I am a surrogate dream husband.

Yes, this is what I'm saying. This is what I relate to about the childhood. It's like I'm a non-sexual dream husband to my mom. You're a non-sexual dream husband to your mom, but you're also a non-sexual

dream boyfriend for all these ladies you've been friends with. Which is why KB would take me to events. Yes, and have you in her home. She can't invite a dude that she likes a lot, finds very interesting into her home and not think the dude's gonna try to fuck her.

It's so true. Yeah, there's no threat. I mean, it's a very easy relationship. Yeah, the gay man and the girl friend, that's like a trope of all time. It is, it is. And it's very true. And I really enjoy, it's the Truman Cappe of all time. It is. It is. And it's very true. And I really enjoy,

it's the Truman Capote, Andy Warhol of me. I think fame is fascinating. Sure. I think the way that it isolates you. And then I'm also an evangelical Christian recovering. So like I want to save people and I'm psychotically social and have zero social anxiety. So like I will walk up and talk to Michelle Obama right now. Yes, yes, yes. I feel nothing. And that combination of things gives me access to be like, I'm going to go talk to her. By the way, no one talks to her or she's developed such an incredible algorithm to see who's full of bullshit or want something from her. And I just want to have an Aperol spritz by the pool.

Yeah. She's like, oh my God, me too. And I have, I'm a writer. I have unlimited free time. Did you do that? No, but not yet. I know, I'm starting to think they were friends, which is so plausible. Listen, I want to add something.

I think after hearing this whole conversation, learning more about your relationship with your mother, which I didn't know. We are all born with a singular most powerful woman in our life. And as you've made clear, you don't have the approval of yours. Of the most powerful woman in your life who will always be the most powerful woman in your life. So it might feel nice

to get some approval from some powerful women. And you're probably seeking that. Wait, am I saying his name right? It's hard. Gabor. Gabor is in the room. This is exactly the truth. That's what it is. And I feel that I'm looking for powerful women to approve of me.

And it satiates something so fucking deep that I am unaware of it. It's like, I don't even know that I'm arm candy for another gorgeous actress. I'm just like, oh my God, I went to this thing, met her. Oh my God, we cackled. She invited me over. I don't even know it, but I'm actually just trying to get my mom to say, I approve of you.

She does all three things. Yes, love, like, and approve. The best facsimile you can get. Yeah. Mine's a little different. Mine was, I have a bunch of secrets. One of them's carrying around being molested. And I think everyone will think I'm gay if this comes out.

And then also having this naughty dualistic nature, which was, I was perfect to my mom, but I also was an addict, got fucked up and did all that kind of stuff. And then, so just, you know, pervasive, low self-esteem. And for me, if this person of very high status and all the options in the world would pick me, I can prove to myself, I really am worthy. It doesn't work. It works for like five minutes, but then you do the thing we were talking about earlier is you go, well, this person must not have been as special as I thought. It can't penetrate the low self-esteem.

I have to generate it on my own for it to work and to be sustainable, but I certainly sought it insatiably. I'm realizing as you say that, my sexual self-esteem is so profoundly low that the thought of a high-status man isn't even interesting to me.

Right. If a high-status man was attracted to me, I would not even perceive it. Right. Which has happened before. And I'm like, I don't know why I'm not attracted. Interesting. Yeah. But now, you should make me pay to be on this show. You can Venmo me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seven or eight dollars. Yeah, because you're protecting yourself. I guess. But I don't even have access. Even saying that causes no feeling. It's so intellectual. The wall is so strong from here to here.

It's just going, bing, bing, bing. How interesting. La, la, la. Yeah. So I'm really glad this whole thing happened today because I got to connect those dots and I hadn't been thorough enough in investigating why that was activating to me, which is my own laziness. And maybe it's fun to just sit in judgment sometimes additionally. And you're so perfect. Otherwise, it's like the only thing I can really point to that makes you human. It's a great

reminder that, yeah, what if that was the case? And what if I did that? Am I still okay? Am I still a good boy? Even with this flaw I have, and I'm not speaking for you. Yeah. Because obviously the results of this, whatever caused it, every one of these friends of yours that I meet, they love having you in their life. You're not taking money from anybody. Yeah.

You're not trying to use them to catapult you into fame. You're not Capote-esque. Yeah. You're not writing a tell-all about anyone. Never. The result of it is largely just wonderful on all sides. So in that way, who gives a fuck, really? I don't know that mine's been as productive or constructive, but I think I was trying to fill a hole with people, which is not fair to them. Well, and also the like fucking famous people or befriending famous people, the only reason that that's a conversation is because there's a very visible pattern.

Everyone has these patterns. You're dating this thing or that thing to fill that hole. You're befriending this person who has a good job versus that guy who doesn't. You're all doing that just to do something and you're not aware of it or you are. And if the pattern is insanely visible, then you're like, whoa, that's interesting

because it's like very clear. Yes, yes. And I would say one of the reasons that it probably irked you is because when you met me, you had the red light of he's taking advantage of her by living in her house and paying like $1 to live here. So that primered the algorithmic review. And I'll add, and this is not her words, I'm not saying she's ever felt this at all, but then protection again over Kristen

when you had new friends and spent less time with her and I was protective of her and saying, but what have you moved on? Mind you, life happened. She also met me and we ended up getting married and having kids and you became a writer and all these things have happened. I was also feeling, oh, she moved on.

Right. That's the thing that this is not really fair because this is what happens. When someone gets in a relationship, the single person on the outside just has to be like, well, yes, I guess that's just the way life goes. Yeah. And it's happened a million times in my life. Me too. Yeah. And it's happened a million times in my life. Me too. Yeah. But then if it's the opposite, if it's you're in a friendship and then you make a new friend, it's like, well, you just left me. But it's the exact same thing happening. One's just societally acceptable.

Totally agree. Yeah. If someone ditches their friends for a life partner, it seems justified. You're like, that's my dream. I'm dying to ditch my VHS. Sign me up. Where's the exit? I do have great friends. Does any of that offend you or is that all right? No, I'm obsessed. Okay, great. Are you kidding? This is the quintessential thing I like about you.

I hope it's something we have in common. It is. It's like everything's on the table. I've always loved the way your mind works because you're a friend of my mind, which is a Toni Morrison quote. I remember thinking I'm open-minded, but having these subconscious rigidities. And there were two times, I can picture where we were,

where I felt something shift in my brain. And these aren't that major, but I remember disparagingly talking about strippers, how they obviously don't want to be strippers. And you were like, you don't know that. I'm sure you don't remember this conversation. You're like, they may love that job. I know strippers that love that job and it's very empowering and they've taken the power of their

sexuality back. And I had never thought about them having any agency. And it was very profound to me. Another example was disparagingly talking about Chinese media and how they have no free or whatever. And you just said something like, well, imagine governing a billion people. Look how good they're doing. Something is working over there. And I just remember, like, well, imagine governing a billion people. Look how good they're doing. Something is working over there. And I just remember, wow, he really does think about it from different directions. And I don't even realize that I've been fed a way to think in so many different ways. I stand by the first one and I'm embarrassed by the second one.

But it's just very interesting. I do think that I have said about China that they took people from 1947 to 2020 in three years. I'm not sure what the perfect approach to that was, but that does seem like a Herculean task. It's interesting at very minimum. Yeah. I love you. I could do this weekly with you. I mean, you're just endlessly interesting.

And this was one of those few ones where I'm like, I don't really need to do any research. I know that Jett will show up. And we've never ever sat down and not just exploded for the next three hours. I feel very lucky to have met you in my life. I feel the same way about both of you. And you're a beautiful writer. This is like the thing we said when we started is so many writers are not interesting talkers. The cadence is not right. I'm sure the word structure is beautiful, but the cadence is not interesting. I'm a talker first.

I just happen to write. You've learned how to write how you talk. Yeah, but I want to talk. I want a Fran Lebowitz my way through life. I want to smoke a cig and drink and talk all hours forever. And that's what I love about this and about y'all. It's so delicious. It's not a coincidence that Kristen was living with you

up until the point she lived with me. Yeah. She likes it. Yeah, yeah. On our next weekly, I know we have lives. Let me just soft launch this for the next one, LOL. The gay experience is so, like, I'm dreaming. I've entered the fourth floor.

I'm in my 40s. I want to have a long-term husband. So I feel so late. But so much of the gay community, especially, is they're all open relationships or primary partner or how hard it is to stay together. And then I watched that amazing show, Couples Therapy on Showtime.

If you haven't watched it, I watched it all without getting up or going to the bathroom. It's unbelievable. Ooh, I want to see that. Is it like Esther Perel's? It's exactly like that. The show is so well done. But I just was like, I think I want to be in a committed monogamous relationship for the rest of my life. I love the idea of partnership. I love the idea of building something together, but it's so hard to find gay examples of that.

You're a sexual conquest alpha male, and then you found your partner. I just wanted to ask you someday, what has that journey been like to commit to someone like this and like your sexual appetite conquest, alpha male, and then you found your partner. I just wanted to ask you someday. Yeah. What has that journey been like to commit to someone like this and like your sexual appetite and what you need and having that conversation? And then have you ever, I was talking to a gay guy about this who was older than me in his fifties. And he said, well, you know, many millions of the gay monogamous husbands that you could look at as an idol died in the AIDS epidemic. Like you lost a whole generation of potential elders. So no wonder you look around, which was very interesting to me. That is incredibly true. Yeah. The parents kind of went away. Yeah. Gone. And all the young, new gay guys on the scene had to figure it all out. Yeah. I know. But I was just so curious for

your wisdom. I guess I needed to book like 12 hours in here. I know. But I was just so curious for your wisdom. I guess I needed to book like 12 hours in here. So anyway, we don't have to talk about that now. No, but that is one of my favorite topics is we've talked in the past. Yes.

I love you, Jedediah Jenkins. I love you, Dexter Monica. I hope everybody reads Mother Nature. You're just a very effortless writer. It's very fun and very playful, yet it's not at any point cumbersome

which is a hard line to toe I think. Mother comma nature a 5,000 mile journey to discover if a mother and son

can survive their differences. Jedediah Jenkins I love you. Thanks for coming. I love you. Thank you. I love the attic.

Next up is the fact check. I don't even care about facts. I just want to get into your pants. Is it warm there where you're sitting? Um, I guess. You can't feel any human heat. No. Monica has just occupied the seat of someone that was sitting there for two hours

i'm already in a swim in many layers are you hot no now i feel cold you're cold okay good but i'm about to feel so hot because i'm gonna go cook a bunch of stuff oh that's what's next okay are you getting nervous yeah yeah i have alice in roman thanks dinner tonight. Which is not. It's not ideal. Also, I'm agreeing to go behind the curtain. It's not actually Thanksgiving. Because it is Thanksgiving. Right.

Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving. I'm so grateful for you. I'm so grateful for you. I was thinking about it on my walk here. You were? I didn't walk here, but from my walk to the car to the door. From your door to the 30 feet.

Short walk. Yeah, it was a brief little thought. Small thought, but meaningful. Right. I'm very grateful. I am very grateful. And Wabi Wabi, I'm very grateful for you. You guys too.

I'm very grateful for this attic and this show. More than the show, the past nine years since I met you, I've changed more in the last nine years than I have in the previous 27 years. Really? Do you think so? Definitely. Oh, wow. Yeah.

And I really do credit you for that. Come on. Yeah, I do. No way. Yeah, I do. I do credit you for that. Come on. Yeah, I do.

No way. Yeah, I do. I don't think I would be this version of me if you hadn't entered my life. That might be the nicest compliment I've ever heard. That's so sweet. Thank you. It's really true. You know, one thing I do remember, not that I'm going to take credit or even agree with that assessment, take credit or even agree with that assessment. But I think one thing that was really fun for me was that I knew aside of you that no one seemed to really know. Even in our friendship circles,

people started listening to the podcast. They were like, oh, wow, Monica's, you know, X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, yeah, 100%. Obviously, this isn't the same thing, but it kind of is because every relationship people have, regardless of the kind it is, is a love story of sorts. You know, did I say it on here that, you know, I've had a couple of dates and on one of them I left and I realized I like me on that date. Oh, right. Yes, yes, yes.

Absolutely. I like the version of myself on that date. Right. I have that here. I have that with you. Right. Where I like who I am. Yeah. When I'm with you. Right back at you. Yeah. So I learned that from here. Wow. That makes me so happy. Good. Yeah. So we have Friendsgiving slash Thanksgiving slash Secret Turkey today. Today when you guys are listening to this. On real Thanksgiving.

On real Thanksgiving. Unless you listen to this tomorrow. Well, that's on the people. They're going to have to do the math. Yeah, that's not on me. It's on them to know this came out on Thursday. But we will all be together right now. Yeah, we'll all be together.

I'm so excited. Me too. Last year was just so fucking heavenly. It was. How's your secret turkey going? It's in the works. It's in the works. I got some work to do tomorrow, I think, after we record.

I've got some work to do. I have some work to do. I had an idea. Uh-huh. And I- Really quick. Secret turkey is something that Molly and Eric's daughter, Lily, orchestrates, and she sends us all texts, and it's incredible. And last year, I was, and I think I admitted to this last year, I was like, I don't want a fucking chore to do.

I got already host. I don't need another thing. Yeah. So it kind of was like begrudgingly participating, and then it turned out to be the greatest Thanksgiving ever. And solely because of this thing she orchestrated. Yes. Yes. It was so fun and heartwarming. And Wilder, when we had to give thanks for things, he said, I'm thankful for eggs and bacon.

And he was sincere. And then his present he had gotten for somebody was eggs and bacon. It was like a. It was a theme. Yes. And he was sincere at four or five. His favorite thing was eggs and bacon. Everyone gets assigned via the random machine a name of someone in our group.

And then we have to make a present for them. Yeah. And it can be a song. It can be a poem. It can be a story. It can be an actual gift. It could be anything. It could be anything.

And I had an idea immediately when I got assigned my turkey. I just like figured I could execute it. And then yesterday I was looking into it and I panicked. Realizing how hard it's going to be to execute? Yes. And I was like, I don't actually, I don't think I can.

Okay. Too big of a swing. It was going to be a food item. Yeah. But it required eating immediately oh and that was not gonna that's hard to gauge exactly so i i had to scrap that and then i was panicked and then i was up for a while like trying to figure out a plan b okay and. And I did figure it out. So I think it'll be still fine. But it's also funny because everyone's like, like Matt texted me today asking me a question,

a very specific question about my last year's turkey. And I was like, everyone's just like trying to make their turkey work. It's a little stressful. It is. It's a little stressful. Yeah. It is, but it's worth it. Yes.

Anyway, so today we're all together. We're exchanging secret turkeys right now. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. It is, but it's worth it. Yes. Anyway, so today we're all together. We're exchanging secret turkeys right now. It's a beautiful thing. We're finding out if Wilder's still grateful for eggs and bacon or if he's added breakfast sausage or something. How his palate has changed. Yeah, we're going to find out. But then three days ago, Monday, which is today, I- Hosted another Friendsgiving.

Yes. I like this. There should be three or four Friendsgiving. Yes. I like this. There should be three or four Friendsgivings. Why not? The reason I did it, I think I mentioned this before, but just in case. The reason I did it is because Kristen orders all the food for our Thanksgiving, thank God, luckily. So that everyone can feel so relaxed. It's so nice and generous.

But I'm also in a cooking phase. You are a cook. You're a burgeoning cook. Yeah. And so, and Alison Roman has the hour-long Thanksgiving special and I wanted to put my real skills

to the test. Yes. So I invited some stragglers, people who won't be at our Friendsgiving, over. So there'll be seven of us, including me. Okay, that's a good group.

I'm in a little over my head. Oh, you got a little too many dishes going? Yeah. Too many dishes? Yep. Yeah, I love it. I did a lot yesterday. So you need to be home right now,

basically, right? I needed to not have worked at all today, but it's fine. Or had the like 20 minute picture sesh after the episode maybe? Well, it's, but it's fine. Or had the like 20 minute picture sesh after the episode maybe. Well, it's fine, it's fine. I wrote out a schedule. Oh my God.

I wrote out two versions of the schedule in case depending on when I got home. Oh, okay. So it's fine. I did a lot yesterday. Great. And we'll see. How long do you gotta bake the turkey? Three hours.

Oh, Jesus. Yeah. You're really under the gun. What time do people think they're eating? I told people to come at seven and that we'll probably eat at eight. Okay, that's gonna work out just fine. It's gonna be fine. The problem is with Thanksgiving and big meals like this, it's the staggering of the oven.

Yes, you need six or seven ovens on the day. Yeah, because I have to put the stuffing in after the turkey. Right. At a different time. Okay. But it's okay. It'll work. It'll work.

And we're not even sure that your oven's temperature is correct. No. Yeah. If you're a great chef in that kitchen, just think what you'll be at your new house. Right. kitchen, just think what you'll be at your new house. For people who have not been in Monica's kitchen, it is a 38-year-old entry-level, very small range. It's tiny and old and yes. But it's good practice because eventually when I am in the house, I do want to have big stuff there. Yeah. We won't be ordering anymore. We'll be walking across the street and getting the whole shebang. This is kind of a ding, ding, ding.

Okay. Because last year, we went to Michael Voltaggio's house. Yes. And he made us for Flightless Bird a Thanksgiving dinner. Yes. And this weekend in Vegas, we went to his restaurant Retro. How was it? Unreal.

First of all, Wabi Wabi was texting with him. And Wabi told him we wanted to go down there. And he's like, yeah, of course, go down there. And then he said, I'll come down and cook for you guys. He was at another restaurant. He was outside the Bellagio cooking some like activation with his brother. And they were like we're gonna come cook for you guys

unreal the generosity endless kindness of Michael is so unparalleled so nice he's so fucking cool too every time he put

the food down I wanted him to jump on a skateboard and go back to the kitchen that's how cool he looked he's or drop the food and like fucking

do a riff on the guitar and then bail I wonder how him and Abrea are doing great great yeah it sounded like everything was honky-dory

good yeah he flew home for their anniversary the next night to like do a big dinner lovely okay so it was

so insanely good it was so insanely good and then of course back to the generosity he just put the truffle on our table with the with the fucking

shaver whatever yes he's like he's like put it on everything put it on so much like my god yeah it was i was like this is this is too nice wow it was it was outrageous it was so delicious and that uh it's a year anniversary since we met him before thanksgiving yes how lovely so. So updates. Yes, updates. Okay. So I think the thing, the most important update is our live show. Yeah, I wanna hear about it. Your F1 live show.

Yes, F1 live show. And Wabi-Wabi was there for the whole thing. He set up cameras. It was such an epic disaster. It was such an epic disaster. I'll need Rob to participate, but it started right away. So there's six chairs on a little stage and then there's like 20 feet in between the stage and then a bar and um there's

about 18 people real mismatch group the margaritaville converted into this club thanks for starting and we're right outside a gift shop that they cover the entrance with an led screen okay okay so it's just like oh okay this is the environment that's fine i'm gonna push through that they cover the entrance with an LED screen. Okay. Okay. So it's just like, ooh, okay, this is the environment. Not ideal. I'm going to push through. I've done a lot of live shows. We can do this.

As we're sitting down, we start getting heckled. But we're not even like, we haven't started. Five minutes, a lady has to come on stage. Well, before that, the fashion guy in fashion school. Two dudes are already yelling out stuff very loudly. And then I asked really quickly, and who here is, this is their first race. 100% of the hands go up. Okay. Who here watches the races on TV?

Not one hand. Okay. So we're about to do a Formula One podcast in front of 18 people. Who don't know anything about it. Who don't know one thing about Formula One. And they're not interested either. Also, what you probably wouldn't know is that Practice One only went on for seven or eight minutes. And then Carlos Sainz drove over this manhole cover, ripped the bottom of the car in half.

They canceled Practice One. Then they canceled Practice Two. By the time we take the stage, it looks like perhaps there's not even going to be a race. After all of this stuff. Yeah, and then about five minutes in, this gal just decided she's coming up there to take a picture with me, and that's that. Doesn't matter we're talking. I'm going to take a picture with you. She's up on stage.

Yeah, was everyone so drunk? Yes. Open bar. Open bar and no practice to watch. And what are we doing now? Let's just get hammered. Not Formula One fans, not fans of us. So random.

She came up. That was a whole thing. Thought, oh, I'll make some lemonade out of the lemon random she came up that was a whole thing thought oh i'll make some lemonade out of the lemon here i'll interview her a little bit okay she couldn't on your lap she's yes oh yeah okay then i want to play fuck mary kill with a team you know total is total lewis and whatever in georgia so say, who wants to play Fuck America? This older woman. I'm playing. She comes piling up. But I don't know any of these people. My son will pick.

My son will pick Fuck America for her. Okay. So he's there with his mom. She's blasted. He's so nice. He's like a kid? He's so sweet. I ended up talking to like a 38-year-old.

Yeah, he's a little bit older. He's a man. Oh, okay. So now both of them are up there. The mom is sitting on my lap. Dax. She's going, I love your wife. But she's also seemingly trying to kiss me.

Guys. Would you say that's accurate? Yeah. We've lost complete, we never had control, but we lost complete control. She was so hammered. The son has to say who she would fuck, marry, and kill. I was like, oh my God, this is insane. Then another thing happened.

Caitlin and Rob are asking, do we need to do something to step in? Do we need our security to do something? So now we bring Caitlin and Rob out into this mess. Rob McElhaney and Caitlin Olson were there. The nicest friends I have. I mean, the fact that they continued to join me on stage when this was going on. I mean, it was a bloodbath. So the premise was you were going to interview them?

It was going to be an episode of the podcast, basically. A live episode of the podcast. If there was some audience participation, great. That can be in the show. And then Rob and Caitlin are going to come out because Rob and Caitlin own a percentage of Alpine. They bought in with this investment group with Ryan Reynolds. So now they're team owners, too. So this is going to be great.

A, they're super entertaining. They're both hysterical. And they have a real role in this sport. Got it. But no one there cares at all that they own. They don't even, I've never heard of Alpine. No one knows. No one knows anything.

Oh, God. When you think it can't go worse, I look over at Jethro. Jethro, as he is in his own words, is having an out-of-body experience. He doesn't know what we're going to do, and we're supposed to do an hour of this, and it's already gone so off the rails. It's like 20 minutes in at that point. When they come on.

Monica, Monica, Monica, Monica. We're not even to the punchline. Oh, God. Okay. This're not even to the punchline. Oh God, okay. This dude, which I had missed this because I was so busy with all the other stuff. There's a man who has made his way over to Matt and he just keeps shoving Matt. And he's going, you look awesome.

Oh my God, you look, you look awesome. Take a picture. And he's like, he's shoving Matt and he's telling him that he looks awesome. He's getting a picture with him and then he makes his way up to right in front of us nine feet in front of us he's got his camera he's filming he's falling oh my god and he's screaming the whole time he wants me to say something i know it takes me 10 minutes to figure out i think he wants me to talk like frito i think I think. Oh. I'm still not sure. Okay. He's falling.

He's like, I say this. You say this. You can't hear us. All you can hear is this crazy drunk guy who's falling everywhere. He's a big guy. I get out of him at some point. I'm like, sir, who are you here with? My clients.

And I look behind him and there are like eight normal people that are his clients. They're loving it because here's their whatever, their supplier. Yeah. Who is taking charge of this weird thing they're witnessing. And he is blasting. There's no guarantee. There was a very distinct moment, and I can't believe this happened, where I was like, there's a semi-likely chance that we're fighting. Like that we're literally, that that's what's going to escalate to.

That's how out of control the whole situation was. Oh my God. Okay, listen. Monica. I. And you have to imagine my embarrassment also that I've ensnared Rob and Caitlin into this. Yeah. Right?

I'm having like deep, deep fucking regret and shame that I somehow got them ensnared in this. And you're probably embarrassed. I'm embarrassed, but I'm actually, at this moment, there's no room for that. If like I'm doing what I can to keep my head above water. Yeah. Because if I let that in, I'm supposed to be the person up there of these six people that's in charge. Well, that's why I'm panicking right now, because I love, I love all the boys that were

there. Okay? Right, right, right. Including Wobby Wob. Yeah. But I know that everyone was looking to you. Yes, I felt an extreme amount of pressure too. Yeah, but like you aren't always amazing

in those types of situations. And so it stresses me out to think that there wasn't like a me there to say, okay, I think we're actually gonna be done now and us leave because shocked you didn't get in a fight. And then I wasn't even mean to anyone. I don't think, was I? No, no.

I never got mean either. They were like confused at the end of that quickly, but they're like, is he mad? No. Thank God. You know what saved me is Rob and Caitlin started making fun of the whole thing. Rob goes, wow, do you do this show live a lot? making fun of the whole thing. Rob goes,

wow, do you do this show live a lot? And then I go, yes, but only if it's at a bar and nobody knows what I'm talking about and then we'll be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And then Caitlin goes, well, the audience participation

is going so well. Why don't you engage the audience? So once they started making fun of it, at least that was helpful. Yeah. We had something to do. Totally. Because we couldn't do the podcast.

We couldn't talk about racing because they would just start screaming and yelling and wanting to come up and take pictures because they didn't want to hear about Formula One at all. And then I did.

I'm like, okay, well, this, something like this train wreck has come to a close and I was, all I was trying to do

was like, we were supposed to do an hour. Yeah. I was trying to get to 40 minutes. I'm like, 40 minutes, I don't think we're going to get asked to refund our money.

And I made about 39 minutes. That's good. I think like 40 minutes. I don't think we're going to get asked to refund our money. And I made about 39 minutes. I pulled the plug. But, but all that to say, I had just been talking about how much I loved in the groundlings when you would fail together. It became, it becomes so much more fun after the fact. So after the fact was really fun. Cause we went out to eat late at night and Jethro's processing what just happened. He doesn't have any experience. Well, no one did. No one did except for me. So to be able to then navigate the fallout of like, oh my God, that was embarrassing. Wow, that was rough, blah, blah, blah. And then me going, yes, but you will remember this for the rest of your life. We have a moment now in our lives. That's lovely. As bonding, like we shared that moment

and that is actually weirdly more valuable than having gone great. We wouldn't have remembered if it went great. True. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Wowee, wow. But we did have a great time. We had a great time.

Good. Yeah, we had so much fun. Okay, this is for Jed. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. I've been very much wanting this episode to come on. Yeah, it's great. He's just really, really fun to listen to. He is. He's so interesting. He's so funny. And he's, oh, he has the best taste. So as everyone has heard, we have been

talking about couples therapy nonstop. That came from him. Yeah, it did. Yeah. I said like, what are you watching? Everything, he's turned us on to so many different things over the years. And he was the one that said he loved couples therapy. And I love couples. I watched the whole, I'm done and I'm sad. You're dying sad. Yeah, it sucks. It really is like the world is bad.

We should get Orna in here. I want to. And I want her to give us couples therapy. Oh, that would be great. Wouldn't that be fun and scary and fun? Yeah, it's terrifying, terrifying. What I love about Orna, the couples therapist in Couples Therapy, the show, she is a psychoanalyst.

So she does a different type. Actually, it's a ding, ding, ding to Dr. Becky, who when we had her on and she was saying in New York, psychoanalysts are the primary— Methodology. Yes, for therapy as opposed to CBT or anything behavioral. And I've always been like, eh, I don't like that. But seeing Orna do her thing, it has made me feel like maybe I should have that too.

I should have two. Right, right. Because I love—my therapist has saved my life, but. I should have two. Right, right. Because I love my, my therapist has saved my life, but she doesn't do that. Right. And I kind of in therapy on Saturday. So I want you to be more like Orna.

I didn't, but I was like, yeah, I think I have this thing from childhood. And she's like, yeah, but like, she like doesn't really want to go there.

Like she will. Yeah, yeah. But it's not her yeah. But she doesn't really want to go there. She will. Yeah, yeah. But it's not her focus. Well, like all things, this notion that there's one's right and one's wrong or one's better and one's worse. They both have value. Exactly. But then it's like, how many therapists can I have? I don't have time.

Seven, I guess. One each day of the week. She has the same Esther thing, which is Orna's very sexy. Yeah. Do you see it? Yes. She's the same Esther thing, which is Orna's very sexy. Yeah. Do you see it? Yes. She's sexy because she feels all knowing. She doesn't say very much.

And all of a sudden, people who are so closed up. Slam door. No one could ever get in there. She does it with very little. It's like magic. I know. There's the one guy couldn't stand

and she wanted to give up on him. Yeah. And they told her to keep going. Then you learn a little more. Yeah, we're starting to learn a little more about him. Yeah. But when she occasionally, and she admits it, which I love, she's super charmed by that lesbian couple. I know.

They are so incredible. They're so cute. But at any rate, when Orna is charmed and she laughs sometimes, like we were watching it, Kristen and I, I was like, dude, if you were on a date with Orna and she hit you with that three or four times, you would just be fucked.

Like she's so... What? Tell me. No, that's because you... Because she's reserved. She's not. That's her job is to be fairly closed off and to not give. And then she has a secret side. She's just trying to be very, very neutral. So those cracks, the laughter, I like them too.

But I also feel like she's messing up. Like she shouldn't be doing that. Okay. But I like it. And of course you love it because I'm like oh there's a secret playful side to her well no just there's a secret playful side she's so serious and sincere but then there's this weird playful side that is intoxicating she'd be a perfect match for you because perfect in a bad way okay we'll see when i start seeing

her as a therapist yeah i bring her flowers every time i go if she comes in here and then she laughs and then you like it i'm gonna say orna stamp out of it you're not being professional and then she'll go this isn't a session i'm on a show. Yes, it is. It is now. We brought you here for therapy. Yeah. I love her though. I do too. And there's so many things I like about her.

She has style. Yeah. Yet she's like, she's not made up. Yeah. And her hair is so big and thick and messy and good looking. All of these are very physical traits. No. Well, we already know how much we love her brain.

But there's a confidence to this. All of these are very physical traits. No, well, we already know how much we love her brain. But there's a confidence to this. I also, I'm curious if she's married. She's not wearing a ring. She has kids, though. Oh, she does. You see in season two, which you haven't seen yet, because in season two, they're in COVID.

Okay. And so you see her life a little more. Oh, I can't wait. But I've never seen a husband. Yeah. She doesn't need a husband. No. She needs lots of husbands. You know, when I watch it, I do sometimes think I could have done that. Yeah. Yeah. That could have been a job for me. Yeah. But I, I wonder if people wouldn't trust me if I wasn't married, but I would hate them for that. Well, I mean, there's some validity to receiving parenting advice from someone who doesn't have kids. I know what you mean. I just think. But I agree with you that you don't need to be in a relationship to watch these two people talk and see the pattern they're in.

Exactly. You don't need to be. Exactly. I agree. Yeah. And in some ways, I think it can be helpful. Like, in a part of season three, she's struggling. Orna is struggling.

And she's talking to her therapy friends about it. And they're- One of them I don't like. I think he's out to get her. You don't like that man. No, he's right. He pushes her and says, why are you so quick to give up on them?

Like there's something about her that's getting triggered, probably from a past relationship. Past gaslighter. Yeah. Yeah. There's no credible sources that says she's single, but there's... There's some. There's uncredible. Okay. Yeah. There's got credible sources that says she's single, but there's uncredible.

Okay. Yeah. There's got to be. Septian animals. They struck again. I don't want to know. I like her mystery. I don't want to know because I'm having so much fun with my fantasy about who she is.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's part of it. I don't want to know too much about my therapist. I just don't. I want to go back to her attractiveness. But there's a real reason for it. On some level, you could say she's doing everything wrong.

Her posture isn't of like a regal beauty. She doesn't do her hair. And what all of that combines into is like the most attractive person ever. I like you're trying to in a very nice way compliment me are you what i'm in a weird way what going back to our endless debate about conventional beauty and then just attractiveness yes yes and so i'm pointing out to you it's like she doesn't even comb her hair. And she's so fucking attractive. Yeah, I don't comb my hair. She's so attractive. And she's not doing any of the stuff that's on a magazine.

I know. Okay. I don't think you have to convince me of that because I feel that way about everyone I'm attracted, not about me. But I want you to feel that way about you. I know, but I understand the concept because I live the concept. Like everyone I find attractive is not their face. I mean, sometimes it is their face. No, and it is Orna's face.

Right. For sure. Right, it's the whole essence. And it's her hair that's not combed in a discernible direction. You love messy hair. I just love the whole thing she's presenting. Yeah, you love her essence. It's so authentic.

Yeah, it is. And authentic is fucking hot. Yeah, it is. That's right. That's exactly right. Like, undeniably very hot. Yeah, I think that's true. I guess going down the road, the Orna road,

when I was being Orna in my own head about me, I was just doing a lot of introspection. Just now or when you were watching Orna? This weekend. Oh, this weekend. After my therapy session, I was just doing a lot of introspection this weekend. And did you feel like it was productive? Yeah, I do. What did you come to?

And did you feel like it was productive? Yeah, I do. What did you come to? Well, I, you know, I have these instincts and stuff. Right. About other people in my life who I'm fearful. Like I have just so much fear. Yeah.

Can I say, maybe I should say. Sure. I had like a panic about you in Vegas. Right, okay. On Friday. Friday, okay. And I won't get in, I mean, there was like something that sparked it. Okay.

Fairly benign, but I panicked. Right. And started doing the thing I do, which is like a cycle of thinking. I feel very accurate in my feelings when I'm in them. Right. Certain. I feel very certain. And that's what most of the preoccupation is about, is my certainty that something's wrong. Building the case.

Or just like something's wrong and it has to be fixed right now and no one else can see it but me. And how do I do this? Because there are landmines everywhere and I don't know how to do it, but I know something's wrong. And so, you know, that's what happens. Maybe you're sensing the live show I had done. Maybe. Maybe. Something was wrong. maybe something was wrong and look i've been right before about not just you other things too where these senses get um validated as right yes and then that can be dangerous for me because then when i have yeah then it's like oh they're it's always right right and so there was a panic and luckily i had therapy already scheduled for the next day. So I spent most of it talking about that.

Because I was like, I'm going to text. I wanted to text you. Okay. And say like, hey, is something going on? What is this? Right. Answer for this basically. Okay.

And I didn't do it, which I was happy about. Yeah. That was new for me. Right. To not do it. To not act on the fear. Yeah. And she said, well, what do you think doing it would have done?

And I was like, well, then he would know I knew. And then he would, he was like, he would what? And I was like, well, then he would know I knew. And then he would, he was like, he would what? And I was like, well, then he would stop. Then he's busted. Exactly. Then he would know. And then he'd be more scared to do it because he would know that I am, I. On to me.

I know things. And she's like, that's not how it works. He'll find another way to do it. Or he'll, he'll just know that you're looking and be more sneaky. Or he'll, he's like, that's just not how it works. Right. And I was like. It's not the math of the addiction.

Exactly. And it was like, what do you mean? This is the endless heartbreak of having a loved one with addiction. Even when you're the parent, you can't. Yeah. It's, yeah. Like your love isn't enough. heartbreak of having a loved one with addiction even when you're the parent you can't yeah it's yeah like that sadly is the facts isn't enough no nor is the addict's love for anything else yeah exactly it's like yeah i can't save anyone i can't save anyone right and and she was like well what is the real fear and i was, well, this is how people die,

where they go and no one's paying attention and it's always me. And without me, he'll die. Right. And then when I said it. Out loud. Yeah, I said it out loud and I really realized like, oh, I'm afraid he's going to die all the time. Right.

So of course it's like this, it becomes. The stakes are as high as they can be. Yeah. Yeah. And she was like, well, he could die getting in a car. He could die doing anything. Anyone can die doing anything. And I was like, yeah, that's the part I can't live with. I don't like living in a world where that's true. And I never have. And then that's when I started thinking about being so little,

so little. I don't even, I don't know why I had this. Your dad wasn't in the coal mines where people were dying. No, and it's not like anyone died. Right, no one died. No one died unexpectedly in my life. You're having your first one with your grandpa. Yeah, and that actually might be partially why. I had no exposure to it. Oh, that makes a ton of sense.

Like the same, I bring it up all the time, but the book on killing talks about our obsession with murder on TV because we don't see it where there's no grandparents dying in the house. We don't slaughter our food anymore. And then likewise, when we went to single bedroom houses, people got perverted because they weren't around sex. So yeah, the absence of it, because I've had quite a few folks die. Yeah. Well, you've had a lot of people in your life die. Yeah. Quite a bit. That you at least even know. I mean, I really- Yeah, but friends and family members. I feel really anxious that we're even talking about it. Okay, find some wood. Chop, chop. I remember when I was at my grandparents' house over the summer, so I must have been like five. I would be so anxious my

grandpa wouldn't come home from work. Right. And always when my dad would come home from work, like when I could hear the garage door open, it was always a relief. I'm going to hit you with something that's so woo-woo. Okay. But truly could be part of this. You could have inherited your mother's abandonment. I do think that.

I think there might have been some real stuff. Yeah, epigenome transfer. Yes. Yeah. I do think that. I think there might have been some real stuff. Epigenome transfer. Yes. Yeah. Mixed with, I think I must have from a very early age understood that they were targets, especially my dad and my grandpa. Well, I'm going to add something as well. So that's likely it as well.

But when you're other. Yeah. The only place you're not other is your family. Yeah. It's everything. Yeah. Without that, you are like other by yourself. Yeah.

As a kid. Yes. So I think like, I just imagine if me and my family had been growing up in China, you know, I would, I'd be extra dependent on them and reliant on them and fearful that without them, I'm really alone in the world. And alone, but also the otherness is what might cause me to be alone because. It's all swirled into this. Yeah. They might get.

Targeted. Yeah. They're a target. So I'm trying, even though this sounds kind of callous, I'm trying to remember that even if people die, that I'll be okay. You'll be okay. You'll be okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, it's like impossible for me to believe, but I'm trying. Yeah.

You know how they say Austin's a blueberry in the red soup? Yeah. I like to think of the Padmints as a chocolate chip in a pancake. This just occurred to me. Just one chocolate chip in the pancake. Yeah. The tastiest part. Is what everyone wants.

Anyway. Well, thanks for sharing that all with me and i and i apologize that my past would make it a very plausible and realistic you don't i don't i'm no i don't need an apology no i'm happy to apologize for the rest of my life about the PTSD I installed in you. So, you know, had you not been right, I mean, this was one of our little bit of our debates throughout the process. The only thing that's been debate, you know, where I've been is just to point out you were wrong a lot too. You were definitely right and you were wrong a lot.

That's the only part that I sometimes will push back on. Yeah. You know, had I not given you any of the right ones, you might be better at silencing that voice. And I certainly didn't do that. I definitely reinforced it and gave it legs. And I am sorry for that. I would not want to the idea that, oh, I've had this fear my whole life that people will die, then of course I'm attracted to you. Because I'm so.

And it made you such a like pivotal part of my life in so many ways. Uh-huh. Because you are more likely. Yeah, you're dangerous. Yeah, yeah. And I'm trying to antagonize that part of me by putting myself in close proximity to you. Right, to a daredevil.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty funny actually. Therapists would have a field day with it. Yeah, like we're all doing that. Yeah, your biggest fear is you'd lose someone prematurely. So why don't you get into business and build your life around someone who is regularly going over 200 miles an hour. Yeah.

And has a drug history. Yeah. Fights strangers. Yeah. It's pretty funny. It is. We're all, it's, it makes me feel like Sapolsky's not wrong. Yeah.

There's reasons for all of this stuff and it just goes back and back and back and back. Anywho. Anywho. Couple facts. All right. Hit me with a couple facts. Okay. Did Spielberg direct Jaws at age 23?

I'm so glad you looked this up because I should have. It was October 1974 and Steven Spielberg was 27 years old. He had stopped at a hotel in Boston on his way back from Martha's Vineyard where he had just finished shooting his second Hollywood feature film, Jaws. Okay. So he was 27. Okay. Oh, and he had an, so he's 27. Okay. Oh, and he had an immobilizing anxiety attack. Oh.

Yeah. Wow. Okay, Dan Savage's Santorum. Oh, great. Let me quickly call Greg Morrison and have him listen to it. I know a lot of it. Do you want to say it? What, the frothy mixture of

common semen. Those are the same thing. The frothy mixture of common blood. Fecal matter. Common fecal matter. Very close. The frothy mixture. You got that phrase right. The frothy mixture of

lube and fecal matter. That is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex. I use that a lot in the hat game as like a clue that you write down. Wait, what's the hat game? It's like Pictionary charades and catchphrase like all crammed together. And people write Santorum. I'll write the description of Santorum.

And then they have to guess And then they have to act it out. Oh my God, Rob. Describe it and get people to say it. Rob's a rascal. You know what's funny is Jethro on this trip

discovered that Rob was a rascal. In fact, when we were driving to work this morning, Rob, he goes, yeah, Rob's a real lad, isn't he? He's a real lad.

That's so funny um in 2023 the life expectancy of the female is 81.6 or 81.6 okay okay and then her dude's 68 hold on, I'm getting contradictory information. Okay. This says, this is at statnews.com. Life expectancy for men is now 73.2 compared with women's 79.1. It says this 5.9 year gap is the widest gap between the two genders since 1996. So it's not looking good for men. Yeah.

Okay. It says life expectancy in the U.S. dropped for the second year. That's from the CDC. Very trusted. Yes, the most trusted. Yeah. And men, they live longer if they have daughters, though. Ashok's going to live 1.7 years longer because he had you. Married and married.

We looked at that before, remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. 20 best-selling memoirs of all time. Okay. Number one. You were right. Green Lights.

Number one of all time. Good for him. Estimated 5 million copies sold. Whoa. Number two, Matthew Perry's. Really? Mm-hmm. Oh, wow.

Estimated 2 million. Three is Tuesdays with Maury. That was a big one. Yes. You remember that one? Absolutely. That's Mitch Albom. Mitch Albom is a Detroit guy, as we've talked about.

And he's kind of what got me into writing because my seventh grade lit teacher, Larry LeClaire, who encouraged me to write short stories, which led to The Yellow Limo. Yeah. Which you've read. Yeah. The way he made it fun for us is we read Mitch Albom's columns every day in class. Oh, no way. He was obsessed with Mitch Albom. And that did seem like fun writing.

Yeah. Oh, that is fun. I like how this, it's not just books from 50 years ago. Yeah. It's this. Wow. And this is fun. That's great.

Yeah. Number four is Pachinko by Minji Lee. Oh, five is Educated. I've heard that's really good. Who wrote that? Tara Westover. It's a Mormon. Oh.

It's supposed to be so good. Oh. What's it called? Educated. Educated. Uh-oh, it's also number six. Okay, cool. Paperback and hard copy.

Maybe. Seven, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Angelou. Uh-huh. Eight, Night. That would be a Jeopardy clue, what you just did. What did I do? You read the title. Oh, yeah.

And people would know that. Who is Maya Angelou? Okay, Eight, Night by Elie Wiesel. Although it's weird. It's like estimated 500,000 copies sold for Night. And that cannot be. Like, I think we had to read it's weird. It's like estimated 500,000 copies sold for night. And that cannot be. Like, I think we had to read it for school. It seems light to be on a top ten list.

Whoa. Guess what number nine is. I would imagine either Minka or my mother. I'm glad my mom's dead. Oh, Jeanette. Jeanette McCurdy. That should be. And it's not minka it's

trevor noah oh born a crime yes yeah that makes sense i would have thought i'm glad my mother's dead would be up at the top of that because it was huge yeah but it's not old enough yet okay okay number 10 the love songs of web de bois.B. Dubois. I'll go quickly. Eleven, Shoe Dog, Phil Knight. Oh. He just died. Phil Knight just died? Oh, no, that's the Nike.

Yeah. I'm thinking of Knight, the Indiana Hoosiers coach. Bobby Knight. Bobby Knight just died recently. Oh, I'm glad we're on this. Okay. What a dummy I am. What? My guru died 10 years ago. recently. Oh, I'm glad we're on this. Okay. What a dummy I am. What?

Guru died 10 years ago. Oh. Oh, my God. I don't know why Snoop posted. Oh, no. I had a post smoking one for Guru. But I definitely interpreted that as he had just died. And many people were kind and soft about pointing out that he is.

We lost him 10 years ago. Oh, my God. Rest in peace. Which really exposes how little I'm following this. It must have been the date, the anniversary or something. It must have been, but yeah, very confusing. I wonder if anyone else thought that. Because you see a post from Snoop smoking a blunt

and says this one's for guru, rest in peace. Yeah, you'd think. He died April 19th, 2010. 2010. So not even 10 years. 13, there's a no. Okay. Okay, 12, you're unloading in Las Vegas. Not even 10 years. 13. Okay. Okay. 12, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

13, Will Smith. 14, Bossy Pants. Tina Fey. Love that book. This will be the last one I do. 15, Lady in Waiting by Anne Glenn Conner. Great list. Okay.

Esteemed. Very esteemed. Highly esteemed. I do think they're missing a few, but that's okay. Yeah. It's a great list. And congratulations if you're on it. Highly esteemed. I do think they're missing a few, but that's okay. Yeah. It's a great list. And congratulations if you're on it. Little Mr. Texas, number one.

Last thing, are chinchillas rodents? Yeah. Well. Yeah, they are. Sort of copy bar. They're rodents. They're gorgeous. Although when I did pull it up to see, I did like this picture.

Oh yeah. They're so cute. And have you ever held one? No, I don't touch rodents. You have to be so gentle because they don't have a rib cage. You have to be very gentle with them. Ew, ew, ew, Jack. But they're so soft and they're really funny and cute.

That's like those squishy toys that fall out of your hand. Water weenie. Water weenies. Yeah. Best Christmas gift of 83. That's what those squishy toys that fall out of your hand. Water weenie. Water weenies, yeah. Best Christmas gift of 83. That's what they are then. They just fall out of your hand. They're water weenies, yeah.

Explode. Ew. Gross. You go to lift it up by the middle, like you would pick up a baby, and then just all of its organs come out its mouth. Ew. As you're picking it up,

you're just wringing like a tube of toothpaste. No one could have sex with that then. Because it's too, it's like fragile. Humans shouldn't try to have sex with them either. No, she's referring to her. I just mean the second one. I know, I know. This is a fragile being.

That's not me. Well, that's part of the, you know. Appeal? Yeah. I'm not fragile. No. Not at all. No high fly Yeah. I'm not fragile. No. Not at all. No high flyer in cheerleading is fragile.

Ugh. Anyway. Well, some of these are cute. This one, this fat one's really cute. They're cute. But. And they're sexy. They are not sexy.

Okay. Well, anyway, happy Thanksgiving to all. Happy Thanksgiving. I love everybody here. Me too. And good luck with this bird you're cooking. Oh, God. Happy Thanksgiving. I love everybody here. Me too. And good luck with this bird you're cooking. Oh, God. I know I'm feeling stressed.

I have to be home in 12 minutes. You got to get home and shove that thing in the oven. I'm going to let everyone know how it goes. All right. I love you. I love you.