Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Jerrod Carmichael Returns

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

Jerrod Carmichael (Don’t Be Gay, Rothaniel, Poor Things) is an Emmy Award-winning comedian and actor. Jerrod joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the fascination with pushing our appearance to the absolute extreme, fans noticing he fixed his teeth between seasons of his sitcom, and tackling the burden of self-awareness in his new special. Jerrod and Dax talk about toeing the line between identity performance and authenticity, celebrating the achievements of human beings not despite but because of their imperfections, and his belief that everyone is in the closet about something. Jerrod explains striving in his recent work to be as introspective as he used to be guarded, the interesting knowledge and wisdom that can be shared as artists age, and why he really hopes we don’t lose our curiosity about one another. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dak Shepard joined by Monica Padman. Hi. Hello, we have a returning guest today, Gerard Carmichael.

One of our favorite first time appearances. Yes, and- This one delivers as well. Since then he popped up in Poor Things, which was so fun. Yes. On the count of three, Gerard Carmichael Rathaniel. We were talking about that with him last time. And Gerard Carmichael Reality Show,

and of course the Carmichael show. He has a new comedy special out now on Max called Don't Be Gay. We love Gerard. We love Gerard. He's so easy to talk to. He goes deep. He's a special on that for.

Please enjoy Gerard Carmichael. We are supported by Audible. Thanks to Audible for being the presenting sponsor of today's episode. We could all use an escape these days and the best way to do it, Audible. With over 1 million titles in their selection, there's more to imagine with Audible.

We are supported by Squarespace. So picture this, you've got this amazing idea for a business. Maybe you wanna sell those weird lawn ornaments you make in your garage. Or maybe you're starting a podcast about the cultural significance of dad jokes. Whatever it is, you need a website, right? Now, normally building a website is about as fun as watching paint dry while sitting in LA traffic. But Squarespace changes all that. They've got these beautiful templates that make your site look like it was designed by some hipster genius in Silicon Valley.

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use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's Squarespace.com and promo code DAX to get started today. Hi, it's Emily Durham, the host of the Straight Shooter Recruiter Podcast. Y'all, you already know the new season of Love Island UK on Hey You is taking over my life. I straight up canceled plans this week because I didn't want to miss it. First of all, I'm obsessed with Yasmin.

People are calling her a Yas GPT because her posture is so good and she's so direct. Like she's kind of giving AI generated energy. I love her. I genuinely think she's the funniest person maybe on TV right now. To me, I just love how she carries herself. Also the recoupling with Alima. I was shocked. Like I'm still unrecovered. I actually don't know what to expect for Casa Amor because I feel like every time I like a couple, something crazy happens. So I'm trying not to get too attached.

This show is beyond entertaining. I need y'all to clock in and watch it with me daily on HeyU the home of reality TV, because my group chats are lit up over Love Island UK. Okay. I don't mess around. Can I do some coffee? Is that an insane request? Yes. I haven't had coffee in a couple days and I was afraid it was going to make me like rude.

Oh, jittery. But I like something warm. How could you have not had coffee in a couple days? Because that tells me you do drink it, but also you might not drink it for two days. That's a very weird relationship with coffee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I kind of had a relationship with a lot of stuff. I stopped smoking weed two years ago, just on a whim. I didn't know where.

Yeah, I was in Paris and I was like, I don't want this anymore. I just stopped. Wow. But your coffee every day. Oh, several. We just had a doctor on who told us thank God. Yeah, he said it's great for us.

It's one of the great things you can do for yourself. Everything else was bad. Everything else you consume to a certain extent was a negative marker, but this was a positive one. So we always drink one in between record, like we'll have one after. Sure, we try to do several. I have a tea in the, mine's a tea.

But Monica's new to it and you guys are the same age. So this is interesting. You just turned 38? I just turned 38. April? April, yeah, yeah, you're 38. I'm about to turn 38. How old are you?

I'm 50. Oh, sweet. I'm 50. But you sweet. I'm 50. But you're like Hollywood vitamin drip in the gym. You're like the new 50-50, not the 50 of old days. Yes, yes. My father at 50 and I are much different scenarios. But what is a real weakness in my routine

is the face, which you just mentioned. I don't ever get facials. I probably gotta get on that because the face is starting to wear a little bit like a catcher's glove. You don't wanna go crazy on things, especially if you wanna continue to act and stuff like that.

Yeah, don't wanna look insane. It's unfortunate, because acting is about expression and people's faces are not moving. Yeah. A lot of folks' faces are on hiatus during the performance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really bad. That's not supposed to happen.

Well, when I went to get Botox, my guy said, I'm gonna give you the, I forget, maybe it was like the actor's dose. Oh, it has a name. He had a name for it so that, can you see? Yeah, what if he's like, do you want Emmy, BAFTA, or Academy Award? That's the dose. EGOT, you get nothing. I gotta go no dose for EGOT. Yeah, yeah if he's like, do you want Emmy, BAFTA, or Academy Award? That's the dose.

EGOT, you get nothing. I gotta go, no dose for EGOT. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you look great. Thanks. But what inspired, I missed that episode. What inspired? Me getting it.

You've missed a lot of episodes if you missed that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm probably talking about it a lot. So actually, I didn't go in there to get Botox. I went in there to get chin filler. Congratulations, which turned out lovely. She feels really good. I've now had two rounds of chin filler.

What does that do? Forgive me. No, no, it's like. You're acting like you don't know. You know all this stuff. No, what I really know about is like what Michael Jackson did. Cause Michael Jackson was the extreme case. Nuclear option. Michael Jackson had a Cause Michael Jackson was the extreme case. Nuclear option.

Michael Jackson had a tattoo of a hairline. Like it was a black tattoo, he had pink tattooed lips. He got the cleft in his chin. Yeah, adorable. He got like the nose. And am I wrong? The nose ultimately came off entirely. If you read the autopsy, which I have.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. They said that he was at the edge of the bed, his wig had fallen off and it was only sparse pieces of hair and that his nose was not there. Really pushed to an extreme. Yes, well he pushed everything to an extreme and that's part of his whole being. I do love that man so much.

Yeah, I want you to land that plane and then I wanna ask about Mike Jackson. Sure, this is so silly. Okay, so I hate my neck, so I went went to a place you might think it's about the chin It's not about the check exactly. I hate my neck And so I was like I want to get this thing called Kybella Which basically freezes the fat around your neck so I went to go do that and they were like, oh you actually don't have any It looks like that because your chin is so small. They didn't use the word weak.

I feel like a man they would have said weak. And really got you on the hook. Yeah, like, oh, fuck, I look weak. I'm gonna say something that's gonna overstuff. Say it. I would like for you not to change. Well, I think that's very sweet. Only because the first time I was here,

you were my big takeaway. I went back being like, oh, I love Monica. She's great. You're great too, but like, you know, I really have a memory of you and your face and your smile and all of it comes with it. Do you think it's different? No, no, no.

And this will update the memory. Oh no. No, no, but I'm saying I selfishly don't want you to change because I think you're beautiful and great and not in the cliche, you're beautiful, but just that you're your own thing. I really needed to hear that. Did you today?

I mean that, because really I love being like Monica's great. I really fall in love with people. Well, the feeling's mutual. Me especially, I've been like, that's one of my favorite. OK, and Dax as well. No, in all transparency, I got my teeth fixed. That was my first major purchase. Veneers? No, they redid the whole thing. Page one fixed. That was my first major purchase. Veneers?

No, they redid the whole thing. Page one rewrite. Yeah, for the front row. And I did it in between seasons. Really quick, for the front row, implying you might have other rows. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the front row, the front row, the visible seats.

Back shark teeth are still fucked up. I did it between season one and season two. I had a sitcom on NBC and I changed it. And then I checked Twitter just like, oh, no, I see it all. Like, people just calling it out. Yeah, that's brave to go mid-series. Yeah, yeah, mid-series. Yeah. I almost wish you did it mid-episode.

I know. I needed the money from season one to season two. We all have a thing. So that is cool. I'm just saying specifically for you, you're so memorable and great. Aw. Can I suggest something, though, that feels transparent to me, which is, that's not a shock. So that is cool. I'm just saying specifically for you. You're so memorable and great Can I suggest something though that feels transparent to me? Which is that's not a shocker to me that you were attracted to her

Yeah, because I think you see in her immediately someone who was also hiding really tell me more about this. Well hiding Hiding hiding in plain sight because I grew up in Georgia and I hated being brown so much. Yeah, yeah, okay. I was constantly trying to assimilate into white culture. She out-whited the white girls. Be so white. Cheerleading champ. Actually, I mean, not to like jump so far ahead,

but here we are. You're special. We'll get to it. But when I watched it, this new one, I was like, I really understand what he's doing because I'm the same. Now, I'm like, I'm not gonna assimilate, I'm not gonna do just what you want me to do

because you're the hegemonic group. I'm now swung so far on the other side that I feel like no one's gonna put me in that box again. And I feel like you have that as well. Yeah, trying to compete. You know, the hard thing for me, I'm sure you felt this way, it's the burden of self-awareness, being aware of how you sound versus how someone else sounds,

how you move, what you like, what your interests are, versus someone else being black, you're tall. This isn't your world. You have to be aware of yourself, and you're kind of representing a lot of other people in all of your actions. So that's a lot to put on a person, you know, on a child and a lot to carry, like a lack of freedom.

I found myself recently being jealous. Certain people are very free and I get a little jealous of that. I want to be free. Yeah, but you never had the luxury of doing so. Yeah. I want to make a prediction guess, which is, okay, so when Bend It Like Beckham came out for Monica, a little jealous of that, I wanna be free. Yeah, but you never had the luxury of doing so. Yeah. I wanna make a prediction guess, which is,

okay, so when Bend It Like Beckham came out for Monica, you would imagine from the outside, an outsider like Nima go like, oh, she must've loved that. There's an Indian girl in a movie that's popular and this will help people accept me. And she was like, get that fucking movie out of the theater. I don't want anybody talking about Indian stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm wondering when you were in your hiding face and broke back comes out, you might think. Oh, I was nowhere near broke back. Right? Right, where you like get that movie the fuck out of the conversation. Well, because I was also doing what the other boys were doing.

I was mocking gay guys. Yeah, exactly. As you say, throwing grenades in other directions. Yeah, look over there. Like, I'm with y'all. I wouldn't have had like a close gay friend out of fear of association. A hundred percent. She didn't want to be with any of the other Indian kids. Oh yeah, I'm like I'm not that. There's just so much I'm not that I'm you. I'm you, I'm you, I'm you. And then at some point you get really good at it. I mean now I think it's good but over the past ten years there's been a real reconciliation for me about who am I for real? Because I spent so long doing that,

that's kind of real, right? Like I am very white in a lot of ways. I say that about my own accent. In eighth grade, I changed my accent because I heard Meryl Streep say an actor shouldn't have a distinct accent, and so I tried to get rid of my accent. And I still sound Southern, I think, in certain words,

but my speech has changed completely. I look at old home videos and I sound nothing like how I sounded as a child. Is this put on? Yeah. Yes. Yeah, freaky. Where is the line and you do the thing and then it changes you and you like some of the stuff, but then you have some weird shame about likings.

Who did you model yourself after? Nicholas Cage. What I was so attracted to is the thing we're all talking about, which is this is seemingly a guy who's got zero fear about being as weird as he wants to be. And he somehow brought everyone along with him. He's a star of these movies, but he's fucking out there. Every performance is like, this guy's doing stuff

that no one's doing. So I was just like, I feel like a weirdo. I feel like an Outsider he felt very punk rock and not one of the dudes in the lockers in high school. I was like, okay That's my dude. That's interesting. Who are you? Who were you trying to that's the problem. I wanted to be Natalie Portman or Jennifer Aniston. Yeah Yeah, and really I should have been wanting to be like Lisa Kudrow, not look-wise, but that's more me actually, like funny and playful and that type of thing.

But I didn't want that. I wanted to be the ingenue. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so how does that affect, was that in appearance, was it in voice? Because I'll tell you, so Jay-Z is my idol. Yeah, we love Jay-Z. Same, we share this. And my accent is from emulating Jay-Z.

I have an older brother who has been listening to Jay-Z since like 95. And he's seven years older than you, right? Yeah, seven to eight. Seven to 10 years older. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was born in 78, I was born in 87. And Love Jay-Z was an early adopter of Jay-Z

in North Carolina back when Reasonable Doubt was on priority records. And I learned all Jay-Z lyrics. I'm so thankful to have a Jay-Z as a role model. And I would adapt my clothing, my look. And I was a teenage during the age of good costume because people had clothing lines and rock and wear and Sean John. I could put that on, which I liked. I wanted it to be cool, but I could sound like Jay-Z and I have a big brother.

So I have someone to mimic in the house. So I could wear his cologne and literally wear his clothes, sound like him, and adopt his interests. He was test running for you, like, oh, that's cool, so I'll just do what that's doing. And went to the same school, so even some teachers remember my brother.

Where was he at on the social hierarchy? What niche was he in? My brother was pretty cool. My brother was an athlete. All the kids in the neighborhood loved him. People came to our house. My brother was pretty cool. My father is really cool too. That was kind of a burden.

My family's like really cool, very well-liked people. Man. Yeah, men. It was almost like being Black Hood Barrymores or something. I would say it's a double whammy, because you have this secret that's going to make you not a man. And then on top of it, the measuring stick

is quite high in the house. You got to be kind of an elder. You got to be like a leader. Yeah then on top of it, the measuring stick is quite high in the house. You gotta be kind of an elder. You gotta be like a leader. Yeah, you gotta be cool, whatever that means. Yeah, if you had like kind of a geeky accountant dad, you'd have been like, yeah, I'm not gonna live up to this.

Or I could beat that. I might blow by him in the cool. But that's cool. And reminded us he was cool. Told stories of fights he got in. Yeah. All the sprints. All the girls he got. Oh, I'd love to have coffee with him.

Yeah, no, great. And I actually just had a recent thing because I was going back when I made a reality show and I was looking at all these old photos and videos and stuff with my parents and I'm like, oh, my parents were hot. Yeah. My mom's gorgeous.

She was always so religious or did it increase over time? I saw change to like more and more. Also now I'm at this place where I understand the need for it. I think she's like really pushed in the arms of God the man from other men in her life. From like her father, my dad, needing just a man that she could trust and rely on. And so I have more understanding for my mother now. What pushed her into that. But gorgeous, and didn't think she was gorgeous

because she's dark skinned, wanted lighter skin because that was a part of what she would say, like the look and didn't appreciate how truly beautiful she was and is. Love, my parents were hot. It's so fun. Very hot. Okay, now, so back to Michael.

Yeah, Michael Jackson. When I'm watching your standup specials, Rothaniel and then now Don't Be Gay, I deeply see people that are holding a big secret. I know the agony of it, and I have a lot of compassion for people. Even if I have total judgment of what they did, I look at Michael Jackson,

and as someone who has molested, and I look at the age of these kids, I'm like, it is fucking as dark as it possibly could get. And also what a miserable experience on planet earth to be living with that predilection. I can also see the suffering and I have compassion for the suffering. Michael is kind of a lesson, especially for now,

where like Michael Jackson is absolutely a pedophile. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I'm not one of those apologists. He was a kid, but he wasn't though. No, no, because it's important to hold complexity that is lost now. You don't have to say he was not in order to say don't stop till you get another great incredible. That he's a great musician of all time.

Yeah, yeah. Both can be true. And it's complex in life, it's full of these complexities sometimes. Somebody should write a children's book about Michael Jackson. Yeah, yeah. Both can be true. And it's complex in life, it's full of these complexities sometimes. Like somebody should write a children's book about Michael Jackson. Yeah, about duality. Yeah, yeah, like the king who was a monster.

Because I see that a lot, and even in my own life, I'm not even trying to just be accusatory, but it's easy to separate things into good and evil, and go, okay, well this person's good, and this person's evil. And Michael Jackson was the best performer, an incredible musician.

You watch that doc, the most important night in history, or whatever that doc was. Oh, I didn't see that. You have to. I gotta watch it. I just hate We Are the World. Yes.

I hate that song. Hated it. I hate that song. It's too many voices. I hated it and I was like, this is too saccharine and soft and it's not for me. When I was a kid, I hated it. But what you will love about it.

Yeah, I like to see him work. You have to, because you're seeing incredible people. Darryl Hall's first attempt at this hard thing, one take and Quincy's like, yeah, perfect. Moving on, you have perfect pitch, great. And then Lionel Richie at his height of his powers and Stevie Wonder and to see what Stevie Wonder can do with Bob Dylan's voice, it's all wild.

And then Michael Jackson steps up and starts singing. And you go, oh my God, even in this room. No, he's just star amongst stars. Quincy Jones is so cool, because Quincy pulled people together. There's this Donna Summer song called State of Independence. In the background of the song, there's just a chorus of people going,

shababadee, shababada. There's a making of video on YouTube where Quincy Jones brings in Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Michael McDonald. All these people are just singing backing vocals. It's incredible. I think uncredited backing vocals, but Quincy Jones is so brilliant.

He's so good. Yeah, yeah. But no, Michael Jackson is just an example of a lot of things. I'm of that mindset, because Martin Luther King has taken on the kind of Christ-like role of morality for the black community.

Yeah, he's a deity now. Yeah, and there is an effort by people to either suppress, I mean, he's one of the greatest, most powerful, courageous men in history. Yeah. And yet he also was a man. He was in orgies.

Obviously I have a thing for revealing secrets. So who am I to reveal his secrets? But at the same time, what I think is important to learn is that he was a man who made mistakes or maybe not even mistakes, follow impulses, made choices. You might not like those choices. Yeah. You might not like those choices, but he still is a great person and reached the potential that was excellent, not despite, but also in some ways because of his imperfections, if you want to call them that. I

think it's important to celebrate both in a person. Yes, I will be the first to say there seems to be a total lack of acceptance. There's a naivete, like a chosen naivete to think you're going to get exactly what you want, and it's going to be in the package you want it. The Picasso is going to look how you want it to look, and he's going to have acted the way you want it. And I always bring this up, but like we don't do that in science. If you come up with theory of relativity, we don't give a fuck what you did. We're going to use that. It benefits us, but we don't do that in science. If you come up with theory of relativity, we don't give a fuck what you did, we're gonna use that.

It benefits us, but we don't seem to think the benefit of the art that we need to make that distinction. And also, I am someone who's done tons of shady things. List all of them right now. No. It would be three, four hours. I'm incentivized for you to have that worldview. I want you to accept people as flawed

because I'm really flawed. I would benefit from that. Like when you self-evaluate, do you bring that in? It's like, yeah, and I'm also a creative motherfucker who can manipulate a lot of stuff. And am I just paving the way for me to be exactly who I wanna be? A lot of artists were these people

who had a strong image of themselves and really created their own lives. Now I think what's difficult is that the line between artist and audience is so blurred that everyone feels a part of the process and of the making and of the human being. And so it's easy to forget that some of the best artists, the reason they are artists is because they are so different from everybody else. They are so different than everyone in their environment that you want to actually place them on the stage and observe them.

And like their art is their own observations about themselves and their lives. That's part of the separation. It's like, yeah, you wouldn't have done the bad things Michael Jackson did, you also wouldn't have done the good things. Right. Exactly. He was himself.

That's what we were interested in, is how unique and novel the whole thing was. Yeah. I know what you're saying, like, are we incentivized for the world to accept flaws because we're very flawed? But everyone is flawed. No one doesn't have a secret. I don't think, I really don't think.

Well, that's what I wonder. My belief is that everyone is in the closet about something. Yeah. And that there is something that you may hold about yourself that you are ashamed of. Yeah. That you would rather not tell the world, rather not show the world, and it's locked away inside and you try and keep that away. Something that's influenced by your environment, your parents, your religion, your family,

your wife, your children, your husband, your family, your wife, your children, your husband, whoever, that you feel is not right. Some fraudulence. But really an unlovable part of ourselves that we lock away. And that's what distances you from other people. And it's also what can cause you to condemn other people. I believe that most of what we're saying is always about ourselves.

The condemnation is a self-condemnation. I believe that most of what we're saying is always about ourselves. The condemnation is a self condemnation. I always hate the people that are like me the very most. Yeah, of course. I'm always trying to understand what motivates me, what motivates certain behavior. I recently made a reality show about it. Like a lot of my standup is about these complicated areas because I find it interesting and really my recent work is in response to the first let's say even 30 years of my life where it was really

about secrecy and hiding certain things about myself and throwing grenades and those types of things and now I want to be as introspective as I was guarded and with introspection you know it's complicated. So the thing that I was relating to, but could be totally projecting... Tell me. ...is I am quick to out myself, I think, in general, because shame is such a huge motivator for me. But I have a stubbornness that's almost more of a motivator,

right? So I refuse to let you be in a position to shame me. I will tell you everything and I will take that away from you. And that's like weirdly my stubbornness, right? Or my unwillingness to be controlled. And so that line is sometimes blurry. Does that make sense? Where you feel like you're-

Being honest versus getting ahead of it. Yeah, that in itself becomes a wall. Like that becomes your defense mechanism to not be seen. Like if I do anything that I think is worthy of being seen, A, I want to be acknowledged for it, and then B, I tell myself it could be helpful and all these different things. And that is all true.

And also there's some other motivation going on with me at all times. That's why I'm just being in tune with like whatever the intention is right because there is a version of being a victim and lying prostrate and then that becomes your identity and nobody wants a puddle. Yeah right right right right. The introspection can hit a point. You put on this identity that I hate to be taken advantage of right like that's one of Dax's identities.

So then if you're like oh I figured it out it's because I don't want to be taken advantage of, right? Like that's one of Dax's identities. So then if you're like, Oh, I figured it out. It's cause I don't want to be taken advantage of because of my past. Then you start seeing the world through that very specific lens. And then that can be dangerous in itself. Cause then it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. You want to be able to use it to calm yourself down. Like, Oh, this is that old thing.

Yeah. And then you'd want to put it down to not define who you're going to be going forward. Yeah. That's kind of tricky. It's hard. It is tricky. I've been trying to let go. I've been listening to this audio book called letting go by David R. Hawkins. And I really, really love it because it is such a complicated jumble of thoughts up here. And I've been trying to like, think less. I want to apply thought to work, but I like to just in life.

Take a fucking break. Yeah, and be less judgmental about all the thoughts and just be and kind of operate with love. I've been trying to do that more and more. Peace really is the goal, because you don't have to say anything. You don't have to put anything out there. I just want to exist with my friends and my family.

Yeah, so do you have a fear that it's antithetical to work and being productive? You don't have to put anything out there. I just want to exist with my friends and my family. Yeah, so do you have a fear that it's antithetical to work and being productive? I have that feeling sometimes where you see certain people later in their career, like their kumbaya years aren't as interesting. Like I want like Eminem on pills mad at his mom. Sure. Recently cheated on. Yeah, yeah, you do want that.

I think you just kind of offer something else. My boyfriend loves aging artists. He loves writers like Philip Roth, who does his best work in his 50s, 60s, even into his 70s. He loves Scott Walker. He loves Bjork. Loves Bjork. And we just watched Cornucopia, the film,

and I took him to Italy to see her live. I mean, he'd seen her live five or six times. She's offering what she's offering. Going back to even Jay-Z as that example, because Jay-Z is one of the few rappers who has made aging graceful and interesting. Because as a Jay-Z fan, the man who made Big Pimpin also made 444. And that's very, very interesting because it's like, okay, you show me what you were dealing with and afraid of and angry about in your 20s,

and you show me like the celebration in your 30s and 40s. And now he's showing reconciliation with family in his 50s, and that's so interesting. There is something to offer, because hopefully your audience will age. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Part of that is we are inclined to make art for teenagers because they are the loudest voice. Yeah, you feel like if they're not on to you, then you're dead. That's what makes me cool. And that angst goes away. It should. But it's replaced by something else that is interesting. And I'd like to hear a wise person's take on how to be a good member of their family, how to exist in the world, political ideas.

There's a wealth of knowledge to be shared that isn't just breaking windows and throwing chairs and the angst. Because if you're still that, that's why Jay-Z was cool, because there were rappers in their 40s still talking about selling drugs and being in the club. Don't you live in Calabasas? Yeah, exactly.

You know what I mean? It becomes inauthentic. Yeah, well, but it's just not offering the best of themselves. The best of yourself is something that you have been thinking about and can offer wisdom or an explanation of or an exploration of in your life.

That's your role as an artist. It just gets lower stakes. That's what I think of. In a way, what I want for myself is contentment, acceptance. To me, that's the highest. Those are the highest stakes. Here's the thing. It's lower drama.

Teenage and early 20 drama is so sex, because really, the threat is they're going to kill themselves. They're going to kill someone else. Yeah. Kind of this threat of violence. But I don't know, man. I've had to, like, reveal something to my boyfriend and then eat dinner with him. And that is...

That's high drama. That's insane. Having conversations with my aging parents, that's high stakes drama too. It just looks different. You're right. It's just earlier times, as tumultuous breakups and getting fired and all these things. When you're young, love feels like it's insane and it's this rush and it's like this passion. And you can go through a breakup every three months with the same person. You're throwing stuff against the wall. But then there is, I was actually just talking about

the scene in Network where the producer fell in love with a younger producer and his wife found out about it and there's this beautiful scene. The actress actually might have won the Oscar for, she's on screen for like four minutes. Am I supposed to play the part of the doting wife while you pursue your winter passion? High drama for like these people

that have spent 40 years together. I look at my parents, the stakes of my parents' marriage, secrets and things like that, that we held onto my father for 40 years. Glorify that, that's insane. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's the parts that I think people are afraid to hear about or see.

But three month breakup, everyone can sort of relate and like, oh, that's cute. You barely cared about this person. Exactly. They didn't even meet your mom. The stakes are actually low. That's why we can watch it and not feel scared. When you watch that and you're like,

oh my God, a 40 year relationship that could end in a second or pull one thread and the whole thing's gone. That's so scary. And richer. My parents are still together because they have such a history and like she's invested so much time in this person.

And now my father is Parkinson's and she's like his caretaker. Heavy. Yeah, yeah, heavy. Don't Be Gay is phenomenal. I gotta say, of the people that are seemingly being very honest about themselves, this is like a very much a high water marker. To be able to out yourself for all this stuff

that people are going to judge. It's so impressive. Yeah, because it's not shocking and that you're calling out. You're not talking about other people, you're talking about yourself. Yeah, there's like pseudo self-deprecating and then there's like real self-deprecating and this was real.

The journey we're on, and this takes us to the last time we interviewed you, which is, Ratheniel had just come out, had won an Emmy yet, but it'd come out. You're about to host SNL. You know, the poor things, which I loved by the way. That was my favorite movie of the year. It was so fun to see you in that.

Emma is incredible. Yeah, she's a gangster. Yeah, and Chris Abbott was great in that too. So the reality show hadn't aired yet. When we talked to you. No, was I making it? I'm trying to remember exactly the timing of it all. It was almost three years ago to the day.

It was like May of 2022. Oh, so I wasn't making it yet. I started making three years ago to the day. It was like May of 2020. Wow. Oh, so I wasn't making it yet. I started making it around the time of the Emmys. Okay, so you made that show and in the special, you talk about having gone online immediately after. Yeah. Yeah.

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Follow Flesh and Code on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Flesh and Code early and ad free right now by joining Wondry+. All episodes of Flesh and Code early and ad free right now by joining Wondry+. So let me just hear what your hopes were for it, if any, and then how did that sync up with what the results were? I was going through a lot of things in my life and also felt like documenting it was important because I just hadn't seen it and I wanted to do it for myself and put it out

into the world. It's funny because I opened up the special just talking about the response, reading things online, which is incredibly addictive. It's difficult not to do that. I haven't been doing it with this special. Actually, for myself, I have to not do it to be able to offer a better version of myself to the audience. Yes.

Because good or bad, that's the thing that I've learned, just even like searching really nice comments and like really good things, which is hard because you get frozen into people's idea of yourself. This is what they like about me. Yeah, it's like when you tell a good story, you go, oh, I got a good story, I'll tell it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's how you get frozen into people's idea of yourself. This is what they like about me. Yeah, it's like when you tell a good story, you go, oh, I got a good story, I'll tell it another place. And that's how you get stuck.

I think it's really, really important for an artist, especially actors and comedians, any artist, not to do it, because even the praise is not healthy. It's bad too. But also what didn't feel great, criticism is devastating. Yeah, so you said on a talk show, I think it's both more true than it's not. And also I thought, no, no, you go,

every one of these actors, it's like, I never read anything about myself. You're like, they're full of shit. I know I laughed at that. So I think that's both true. Way more people read about themselves than they say they do. How can you not?

Yes. The world is talking about you and it's in your pocket. I think a lot of us have learned not to. So I also think a lot of us don't. No, here's the thing. Everyone does. You can get so burned by it that you stop. That you decide to.

That you have to. That you have to stop. I stop because my feelings are hurt and I can't do it. I don't want to make excuses for it. I do believe what I said about even the praise, because you can see it happening with children. Like you tell a kid, you're a good boy, you're a good boy, and then they do something bad,

and then all of a sudden that's how shame builds, because they're like, oh, I'm not living up to what I told I was. There's that. But don't get me wrong, in moments where I've read and it's just been all glowing, I'm like, oh. I think you can lie to yourself as someone in the public eye who's putting out art, you can say like,

well I should read it because maybe they have some constructive criticism for this show. It's like, oh maybe they'll say something that we should start implementing or we're doing wrong. Which has happened to some degree. It depends on what you're making, cause that's for like McDonald's. That's like the corporate kind of thing.

If you are making an album that's about your life at this point, then the comments pushing you in either direction are irrelevant. It's about you. The thing that people will connect with is a deeply personal piece of work that you put out into the world. It shouldn't be dictated.

It shouldn't be crowdsourced. And I've seen this pattern play out a lot. I remember seeing it with American Idol. If people make you, they won't respect crowdsourced. And I've seen this pattern play out a lot. I remember seeing it with American Idol. If people make you, they won't respect you. If they built it, then it's like, ah, Cause they're like, I made it so I can take it away. Yeah. You got an album cause I voted just as a viewer, as a listener, what I'm

attracted to are confident pieces of art. Things that are put out by people who it seems like it was inevitable. They were going to do this regardless. You can see the difference in the movie stars of old and the current movie stars. It's people burdened with self-awareness. You can't keep the crowd in your head and make something singular. Yeah. I've read beautiful messages of coming out and what it's meant and people

sharing things with their children. That's what I'm saying. Even that about being frozen. It's like, okay, my next piece of work may not fit with this compliment. It may actually contradict this compliment. I may be in a different place in my life tomorrow, but I need to show that too. And I may come back to this. I don't know, but that's what I'm saying.

Just like inundating yourself with it again. Is that vestigial? Are you permanently? PTSD muscle memory Fearful that you're ultimately gonna let people down because you have been living for so long with this notion of well When you find out the real me you're gonna walk I'm sure there's parts of that that is there. A fear of God's punishment, a fear of letting someone down, a fear of not being enough. I think I'm trying to make things about that fear and about overcoming that fear. That's definitely still there. My boyfriend is from the suburbs and he definitely deals with somebody who's like from the hood that has hood paranoias. Hypervigilance.

Yeah, paranoia for like not having money. I'm terrified. If you leave a play it out, I think that the place is going to be infested with roaches tomorrow. I'm just like, I'm terrified. Right. It is traumatic. Do you try to work on those things, or are you like, that's me?

That's part of the letting go. A friend of mine, I don't know if it's his quote or if he read it somewhere, but he says, what got you here won't get you there. I like that. And I really love that. And Renee Brown obviously talks about like the walls that you build no longer serve you,

especially once you hit your mid thirties, it's like you start learning, oh, I don't need this armor anymore. I need to get rid of it. And so that's part of the letting go, trying to go like, well, I'm here now and I'm safe. Yeah. Yeah, the safety thing is everything I think'm here now, and I'm safe. Yeah. Yeah, the safety thing's everything, I think.

It's like, yeah, I'm constantly having to remind myself as preposterous as this is, like, you're not 10. There's no stepdad in the mix. You don't need to be afraid of anyone. I understand religious practice now. I understand the need to wake up in the morning and reaffirm certain beliefs to remind yourself of something to like have some ground.

Yeah, some ground to stand up. Wow, that was cool. And what I really, really deeply relate to is you are having a professional peak while simultaneously having like a personal low and the anxiety you get when things are good. I so relate. I am at my worst if everything's great.

That was the big revelation that I had recently. Like what if everything's okay? That's such a scary thought. What if any problems that arise you're equipped to deal with them? What if the person who says that they love me means it? Yeah. So what's next? So for me, I think, Oh wow, what's on the other side

probably of acknowledging all these things are good and everything's fine. I might have to rewrite my story. And that's probably the scariest part for me is like, time to let all that go, that story is over. Do you think you're doing some of that with your Santa? This is me, here's everything and now it's gone and we can be on to the next thing.

Yeah, yeah. Well, that was a thing going back to Jay-Z for the millionth time. Yeah. I'll never tire of it. He would say, this is just what I'm feeling at the time. But we live in a world that isn't conducive to that.

People are like, this is what you said in 2012. This is what you said in this interview. Now you're a hypocrite. And there's no room for people to evolve. At some point for ourselves, we gotta let that go too. And especially, not even to make this political left a right thing, but if we can learn something from Trump, is that, wow, like a lot of things

that would have torn a lot of people down, he just kept moving. Yeah. It's like, man, whoever I agree with politically, Wow, like a lot of things that would have torn a lot of people down, he just kept moving. Yeah. It's like, man, whoever I agree with politically, I hope that they have that tenacity to just go. They can get shot in the ear and keep moving. Yeah, well, just go through the fire of criticism, because I want that for someone that I believe in to like go through the fire of criticism and come out, still stand firm in their beliefs and not be torn down.

It's very easy to do that. And a lot of times that call comes from inside the house, like you tear someone down before they can be great. And what I don't want people to lose is curiosity and curiosity in other people. You don't have to agree with someone to be curious about how they got to this place and why they're making the decisions that they're making. Well, yeah, we can't fix anything if we're not curious about how it happened in the first place. So much of this is upriver stuff and we need to know backstories. We need to know what happened in order to fix it.

I think about even early days of Oprah. Oprah was interesting and got a lot of shit during the time. Even retroactively gets a lot of shit, but like Oprah was going to towns in the South and interviewing the Klan, having deep conversations with people that she disagreed with, people that hated her. And that is missing and now everything's so insular. So the bros talk to the bros

and the intellects talk to the intellects. It is important to have conversations with people. Cause now the criticism you get is like, why are you platforming this person but it's like no but everybody's platforming we all platform Trump we paid him attention oh yeah definitely we love her hate it is platforming the left was the only people more obsessed with them than the right yeah yeah yeah I mean weirdly I would want an intellect to sit down and have a con anyway anyway, I'm gonna get political.

Well, I think it's interesting that you have that opinion because I do too, and I always say, I actually think it's a very privileged person who says, well, you shouldn't be platforming or you shouldn't be talking to them because they're bad. And it's like, well, I grew up having to talk to people I disagree with. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I would have zero people in my life if I hadn't done that. So that's a privilege you had. I feel that perspective too, where I feel like an outsider everywhere. From North Carolina, I moved to LA, and I'm just in environments that are completely different. And in North Carolina, my high school

really felt like an experiment. I went to Robert B. Glenn High School in Kernesville, North Carolina, that had people bust in from the hood and from the projects and the suburbs and from rural areas. I remember my classmate Don having a Confederate flag on a notebook. These people that you're sitting next to in class that you're talking to every day, I have actual like faces and voices to people that I may disagree with politically. But Don taught me a Kenny Chesney song.

It was like singing the good stuff that hasn't changed how I voted, you know, but it put a voice to it. I think I have a sensitivity to the language of shutting people out. It's because I fear being shut out. I fear not being heard. And so I have a sensitivity to that, even if you disagree. Yeah, me too. So there's a moment in the special where you're talking about how hard it is

to say to your boyfriend, I'm sad, my feelings are hurt, to be vulnerable. Your explanation is like, I can't say that because it's gay. I talk about this a lot on here. I'd be shocked if a woman could understand what the all-day pressure was all day long on a playground. It was singularly about not being called gay. Or if that was it.

Part of why I named it special that, because like the number one rule that you kind of taught is being a man. Because like being gay is being a woman. Exactly. And it's so deep. It is our deepest fear in that first 12 years of survival. Yeah, and the playground is where boys learn to create competitions just to prove how

much they're not their sisters and their mother. Yeah. Yeah. There's homophobia as a blanket term. And it's like, you don't like gay people. That's one thing. And then I think there is this internal homophobia that you could not have not picked up by growing up in the 80s and 90s.

I don't like the vulnerability of what that means. And I didn't like the vulnerability of that. That was why it was my biggest fear. Yeah, there's a new season of Couples Therapy, which is incredible. I don't know if you watched that show. I love Couples Therapy. So Eli, Josh, and Elise, who created that show,

they did reality show. Oh wow. Who I love. Edgeline, some of my best work. I had seen the Wiener documentary directed by Josh and Elise and Eli edited it and I loved it. And I'd always wanted to work with them. And then they made couples therapy in the meantime.

Incredible. I've gone to the set and watched, it's incredible. Oh my God, we're obsessed. They do excellent work, couples therapy is so great. But there's a couple, I won't give anything away really, but there's a couple in this season and there's a guy who is carrying this insane secret. She keeps trying to pull it out and he won't really say it

and he talks about going on this ayahuasca trip. He had to get these demons pulled out, but they wouldn't come out. Ultimately we find out what the secret is and I won't reveal what it is, but it was something that I was like, what? This is the thing that you're so truly burdened by? I was like, oh, I'll never understand it.

That's the thing that is inflicted on men. And it is around being gay. He's not gay, but it's around that. And it made me so sad. I was like, I'll never understand that. That's broken this person, this event. No, it's hard. It's the fastest track to excommunication,

which is any social primate's biggest fear in the world. And it is as quickly as you can get ejected. Do you think it's still happening in this same way? I would have liked to believe in recent years that, man, what are you talking about? We've changed so much, but then Roe vs Wade getting overturned, things that you just think are written in stone.

Yep. You take for granted. Yeah, not even just the law, but the beliefs behind them. Mentally. It appears self-evident. Yeah, yeah, we're at this point now, but no, I mean, when I came out, Google alerts for myself, I was on lists of gay celebrities. There no, I mean, when I came out, Google alerts for myself, I was on like lists of like gay celebrities.

There's certain countries that are like, whoa, it's still kind of scary out there. It's still reasons not to come out. It's still the perception and things that I would have assumed have changed haven't as much. I think it's changed a lot and I think it's still there. My kids are in a public school, or one of them is still, and the shit that goes down is not nearly as bad

as it did on my playground, but it is still all happening. But bringing up that thing, I think it's so real. There's something even more illuminating about it, knowing that it's such a deep thing that you would even be experiencing it in an openly gay relationship, where there'd still be a fear of being gay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It just really illuminates how deep that is. Yeah, no, it really is. My boyfriend's more comfortable with himself and is more comfortable even embodying a somewhat more like feminine perspective. Yeah. Would you agree yours is compounded by being black? No doubt.

Growing up in like a really masculine environment, for sure. Well, let's just say that a group of people that has had their masculinity systematically stripped for them, they're gonna come at it from a different. To be a black man, you're taught that you need to have the strength of ten men. Yes. To like be able to face what the world's gonna give you.

And there is a need for that. So that doesn't go away, I carry a lot of that. Now the stuff you tell on yourself that's even harder and I have experienced this in my own life, which is like I had an open relationship for seven years. I've talked about that a ton on here, nine years, sorry. Whoa. I think I've been able to talk about that here

because it's over and it's safe for people to hear how that worked. If Kristen and I have been vocal about that, that's not our big fear in life. Even just that scares me. There's still talking about it. Yes. I think it's such a primary fear for people, but they wouldn't be enough for their partner. And that's how they would interpret monogamy. That it's so core to their own deepest fear

that it remains one of the more still tricky things to talk about. Almost shockingly so. I'm lucky to be able to be gay. I'm lucky to have the boyfriend that I have. He's smart and understanding, but not just understanding, but has these feelings too. We're free to explore and he knows my work and even in his own work, like we're

free to explore what that is and how we feel about it. And we do sex therapy sessions once a week with Dr. Janna and we're sitting there and we're like talking it out. Are they hard? Yeah. You know, it's funny cause I've been doing it for years. These sessions sometimes can be three hours and you would think that after a couple years of talking about sex, at some sessions sometimes can be three hours and you would think that after a couple years

of talking about sex, at some point, I'd be like, okay, I think we got it. Yeah. Yeah. But no, no. I think it's still the hardest thing for people to talk about. Oh, it's so hard. And years later, I have a brand new revelation that on Thursday I'm gonna have to like bring up

with Dr. Jonna. I can't talk it through here just because you have to talk it through with Dr. Jonna. You're not there yet. Then it'll find its way into something. But I'm just saying, wow, still? Yeah. So I firstly prompted the open relationship by just saying, hey, look at your past, look at mine. We cheat. And I love you. I'd really like to figure out how to be with you and

have kids with you. And so if the expectation is neither of us are ever going to cheat, I just don't know where we're going to get there. So it was like a very pragmatic approach. I'm very curious about your situation. We didn't talk about, the premise was what I don't know, I don't need to know and I don't care. And that worked beautifully for us. For a while. Well, things would come up where it needed

to get talked about. People would have fallen in love or real complicated stuff would happen and we definitely had to go through that when that happened. But in general, it's not like I knew who she fucked or vice versa. What I will say now in retrospect is the one aspect that I was unable to do and I don't think I could ever do is I couldn't have maintained our own sexual relationship when I had options.

My normal one that needed a lot of maintenance couldn't compete with that. Is that an issue at all? Oh, for sure. It's a very difficult thing to figure out. To maintain the same level of passion when you have novelty and you have options and you have these things. Fantasy? Yeah. And look, I'm not one of those right or wrong type of people, because I wouldn't have thought I'd ever be in a...

When I first told my boyfriend I loved him, I asked for monogamy because I was like, that's of course the correct way of doing it. But then I cheated because I'm still having these desires. You have to do what you can live with, obviously, because I have the example even from the home of the illusion of monogamy. That's dangerous too. Now I'll just keep what I'm really feeling,

what I really want, who I'm thinking about while having sex with you will never come up. Just big old secret I'm gonna carry. Yeah, yeah, and some people can live that way and would even say that that's the responsibility to your partner, you grin and fear. To lie. But just deal with that and push that aside

and some people can do it and some people don't cheat and some people live with it and maybe are don't cheat and some people live with it and maybe are able to release that in other ways or just suppress that and some people maybe only desire their partner. Maybe this is all true. For me, I wanna fuck everybody all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that doesn't change by saying I wanna be with you. The switch doesn't flip. No, no, and it is difficult to reconcile that, honestly, and talk about that honestly. Cause I also just looked at my boyfriend the other night and he was the most beautiful person in the world to me. Yes. Like I just like have this image and I'm like,

oh, my face against his neck feels like perfect. The intimacy is on another level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also I want this, can I stop wanting it? Can I train myself not to want it? I don't know. I'd be willing to do anything to make my relationship work, but this is the honest approach for me right now.

Yeah, and I have zero judgment of it. No, people got a lot of judgment. And even within the gay community, if you look at gay reddits, they're just like, nope, open relationship, it's laughable to some people. Never be able to work, someone's gonna fall in love. I totally get it. But you know, also more people in the studies

about like open relationships, the openness of the relationship hasn't been the cause of the breakup. They still break up over like money. Yeah, we didn't break up over the open. Kids, money. Yeah, you still break up with like kids and money. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so I accept it all, I have no desire for you to be anyway, other than how you are. But, do I accept it all. I have no desire for you to be any way other than how you are. But do you have the same curiosity I have, which is like, I too want to fuck everyone. And ideally what I really want is I want everyone to approve of me. And so on one end you could just trust your horniness

is just this is my horniness and this is how I was born and engineered. And then you could also go, and there's something else going on. There's a part of me that's a little bit, I didn't come into my own until my 30s, and so I'm still trying to like validate that. There's a part of me that's seeking that.

There's a part of me that also likes sex as a moment with people. I like having moments with people. Yeah, of course. Moments where I felt like I got to know someone. I like for this to feel like a non-sexual intimate moment. Yeah, exactly. No, it's a rad experience.

Yeah, I'd like to leave with something I like for anybody that experiences me to walk away with a smile. Yeah, and a connection. Yeah, and a connection. Okay, now let's be even more daring. Please. You have a lot of options. Well, the beauty of being gay is that

sniffies and Grindr and like, I could just find somebody that is seeking a transaction. Within nine minutes of leaving here. On my way home, I could do that. But even for a woman, if you are a woman who enjoys casual sex, men are fucking crazy. And so you can't just have a man come to your house.

It's too dangerous. Yeah, it's too dangerous. Well, just come to your house. It's too dangerous. Yeah, it's too dangerous. Well, just come to your house. Exactly. Fully clothed. You can be wearing armor. Like, you can't just have a guy come to your house. Yeah, women are like, if the plumber's coming over,

I should probably have a friend over. You need to have a friend over for the plumber, for an electrician. So like, not really an option. More, you could have like a stable, but there is a certain security that I know I would and I even feel now even more than like random hookups I like more the friend with benefit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah The other thing I just love too is you're talking about being with straight men like husbands at a dinner in the special

One of the wives asked what do you think of Sydney Sweeney? And after like tons of attempts, he's like, yeah, she's attractive. But that was just part of the concealing desire thing, right? It is hard to say and to speak openly because it'll come up later, let alone the actress, the celebrity talking about someone that's nearby, that's in the neighborhood, that's in the restaurant. Oh, that person's hot. Like, oh, was that me? Yeah, yeah. It's hard to reveal that. A lot of my straight guy friends just don't even,

why invite the hassle? Yeah. But I get it, because it's so hard to unhear it once you know. Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, they think that person's hot. And hotter than me? Exactly, that's a good point.

So that's a good point. So that's what you want? So as if they look different, oh, is that what you actually want? You settle for this? You're just with me, but you actually want this person that you call gorgeous. Yeah.

But in fact, that's not even how it is. In our pod, five families, husbands and wives, and then our friend says to one of the guys, if you could fuck any of the other wives, who would it be? And he goes, any of them. I was like, oh my God. I felt that coming.

Either way, that was gonna be crazy. But in your mind, like your husband said, Sydney's Sweeney's hot, and you think it's an obsession, but you might need to go like, oh, he might've said like, yeah, anybody. Yeah, yeah, no, no. Even that deep.

It's just like, oh yeah. But that's still horrifying. Yeah, yeah, like anybody And even that deep, it's just like, oh yeah. But that's still horrifying. Yeah, yeah, like anybody? It's not that they have a type. But even that is like, so anyone but me. Exactly. It all comes back to me. Yes, it does.

Yeah, I really love too, your runner in this special about moms are crazy. I related so much. I mean, I love my mom so much. No, of course. But she is on that YouTube. You said specifically like rabbit holes or obsessions. I was like, it is happening. No, no, no.

Moms get radicalized. They get radicalized, yes, why? Yeah, Monica's mom was super into the Johnny Depp Amber, her trial, and it was driving her insane. She was like home visiting. Her mom was like super dialed. She just had her headphones in the whole time I was there. I was like, what are you doing?

She's like, I'm still listening to you. Because especially like you grow up, you move out of the house. That's why I say they got that mom energy. You know, my mom worked full-time job, but I was also part of a full-time job. Now she's retired. So lifting both of those things. I know.

Hey, what is she doing all day? Exactly. Just to fill the time. She needs that internet. Yeah, and even if your mom's still working, well, she's not coming home so concerned with you for the rest of the day. Yeah.

How's she filling that block in six hours? Another plight of the mother. It's so unfair and thankless. The number one, yeah. Number one thankless job in the world. And then it's weird, because I too have been on this kick about men just speaking less and less and less as they get older.

Because I'm in that position now where I'm a 50 year old man with two little kids and a wife and I just talk less and less and less. I was saying to Monica, so much so that I was wondering like, what was my Papa Bob really like? My grandpa who I met was just so stoic and quiet. He was my papa in the toilet.

Man, literally. What did he want? Yes. When he used to speak a lot, what was that like? and was Batman, literally. What did he want? Yes! Yeah, yeah. When he used to speak a lot, what was that like? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just thought he was a kind of a quiet dude. He wasn't quiet, he learned.

He just learned his lesson. Ha ha ha ha. It's a fucking great special. I love kind of the trajectory you're on. You know, there's comedians where it's like, you're gonna see the same thing that you like, they're predictably funny in a certain way, and then with yours is very much, oh, I'm gonna see the same thing that you like, they're predictably funny in a certain way, and then with yours is very much,

oh, I'm gonna see a different movie altogether with the same lead character, but it's gonna be a totally different movie. And that's very fun. I really look forward to them. Thank you very much. Wait, before we go, I gotta shout out my best friend's mom, Patty.

Patty, let's talk about Patty. She loves you guys. Oh no, maybe she got radicalized by us. We're her, you two. Oh, no, maybe she got radicalized by us. We're her YouTube. Our Johnny Depp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe, maybe. Just I know she's listening.

Oh, shout out. Just say hi to Patty. Hi, Patty. Thank you, Patty. All right, well, I adore you. Thanks for coming. I hope you do it several more times. I always like talking to y'all.

Yeah, you're so lovely. You're so wonderful. And I'm really impressed with how open you are. No, thanks for being a safe space. All right. I'm really impressed with how open you are. No, thanks for being a safe space. I... Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. This is Nick. And this is Jack.

We're best friends, ex-finance guys, and resident 90s experts. And every week on our podcast, The Best Idea Yet, we're bringing you the untold stories behind your favorite products. For instance, can you guess which billion dollar fashion company went viral thanks to a rhinestone covered tracksuit? Or which cartoon turned four turtles into a global toy empire by accident?

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She's got to let him have the facts. Hello. Hi. You're in the attic. I're in the attic. I'm in the garage. You're in the garage, yeah. Garage attic. I had to turn my chair.

So this is a new view for people. Yeah. And I'm not even sure I know where this is the corner of the garage. Yeah. This, I turned my chair. 90 degrees towards the garage door. Yep. And you have really good internet now.

Last time we had a little challenge, and let's be honest, I think you were attributing that to me. Well, hold on, hold on. Please hold. You attributed it to you. You said, oh, the internet, I need to call the guy. And even though I should have good internet,

you said that immediately. So I was like, oh yeah, it's definitely that. Yeah. You were the one in the new environment. Oh, it made sense. But guess what? It was me. It was not you.

And I wonder, cause I wasn't too frustrated during it. And maybe because I thought it was my fault. Do you think that plays into it? Yeah, probably. Yeah. Which. Yeah. Which is unfair. Do you wanna address the elephant in the room? What is it?

Well, you know, we're on video, so everyone just saw. Oh, then I just packed a dip? Yeah. Yeah, so desperate times call for desperate measures. I am out of, I have a stockpile of nicotine mints in LA, as you'd expect, it's my life. I thought I brought enough down here, and then I ordered some,

and then it was just gonna take longer than it normally does. And then there was, I was gonna be out of mints, which that's very dangerous. So I had to say to my family, I'm going to have to supplement with dip until the mints arrive, because I can't run out of the mints. How was 4th of July? Oh man, it was so nice.

We, pod went to Palm Springs, minus a few important people like you and the Richardsons, but the rest of us went and it was so fun. Last year it was so hot, record breaking heat. Yeah. So this year it was still very hot, but it wasn't as hot so it felt like cool. Oh, and what was that temperature?

Oh, probably low hundos. Just always triple digis, but low triple digis? Yeah, I think so. You don't remember any exact temperatures? No, it was just like body feel. Okay. But it was so fun. It was such a good mix of relaxing, but games,

but, and we went out twice, which is unusual. Where'd you go? Okay, there's a restaurant called Bar Cecil. It is, I guess, an insane hotspot. Like, you can't get in. Okay. Okay. Okay, so the most they take is five people. They have one five top in the restaurant and that's it.

And they don't, you can't have more. Okay, and were the kids on this trip or no? Yes, they were. So, but the first night we, two of the groups weren't there yet, they came the next day. So it was just the Hansons, Anna, Jess, and me. That's five people. And so the kids stayed home and had a home night

and we went there and we went to the front and we said, hey, we have five people. We got the right one. It opened. We have five people. We'd love to get in. We heard it's amazing. And they were like, well, we only have one five top

and it's reserved for the whole night. And the bar is reserved for the whole night. Then we were like, well, we have to. Now we have to. Okay. And we didn't. Oh, okay. It was a sad turn of events.

We could not get in. The guy felt bad for us. Jess tried to grease him some money. It didn't work. Okay. Right. Then we ended up at another really fun place, the Parker Hotel. Classic. Which was lovely. Classic.

Anyway, that was great. Then we all went out for Ryan's birthday. Ryan's birthday always happens on the trip. Yeah. And this is a crazy ding, ding, ding. We went dancing. Ooh. They had dance music at the Parker? No, no, no.

The Parker was the first night. Then we went to, for Ryan's birthday, we went out to a nice restaurant, but then we went to this really fun bar called Quads, which is a gay bar that specializes in musical theater. Oh goodness. So there's like all these TVs everywhere where they're showing like all this musical theater and people are like singing and dancing. So that's Erica's favorite bar. So we went there and then across the street was this like,

basically legit like club. Nightclub. And then I was like, I'm not going. Like I'm going to go home. I don't like dancing. We've already established this. And like this looks crazy to me. But I practiced contrary action.

Nice. And I went. And? And we all danced and it was so fun. That's the end of story. It looks crazy to me, but I practiced contrary action. Nice. And I went. And? And we all danced and it was so fun. That's the end of the story. Did you do a lot of dancing or a little dancing? How many minutes or hours?

What was the music? Okay, lots of different kinds of music. They played Starship by Nicki Minaj. I love that song. Right. And it was, I could think it was a lot of dancing. I think we were there for at least 40 minutes. Oh, okay. That's not a terrible long time.

Well, we had already had a long dinner, been to one place. This was the last location. Okay. And- And how much of the 40 minutes were you on the dance floor? Oh, the whole time. The whole time, and everyone was? Yeah.

Oh, great. So people got to see some of my old moves. And what did they think? What was the response? Jess, I caught at the very end, I saw him look at me dancing and he laughed. Oh, okay. And then I had to talk to him about it. I said, what was that?

Why did you just laugh at me? Yeah. He said, no, I was just so delighted because I definitely didn't think I'd ever see that. Like I thought that door was closed for you. Right. And you opened it up. And was it fun?

Would you say it was fun? It was very fun. Yeah, dancing's quite fun, Monica. It's a very, very fun activity. But I was ready to be done when it was time. Because you were tired or you had aches and pains or you just, that was enough? I didn't have aches and pains. I'm very strong.

But I just could, you know, sometimes you're just like, I'm done now. Okay, yeah. I'm rarely that way. I'm done with this environment. In dancing. So I'm just learning that that's an option, that after 40 minutes you be like, well, that's enough. I think you're that way in other circumstances though.

Like when you're at like group gatherings or something, I feel like you're like, okay, time to go now. Oh, sure, sure. Yeah, I just don't ever get that way on a dance floor generally. Usually you have to pull me off. You know how I am with my dance floors. I gotta find a dance floor here in rural Tennessee.

Yeah, you should. Okay, yeah, tell me about your fourth and your dancing. No dancing, but boy, our fourth was spectacular. We took the boat. You know, just chat, ask chat in the morning the best place to see fireworks on Old Hickory. And of course it tells me right away and they and then nailed it. So Gallatin's like a little town across

the river and it would take about 40 minutes to drive there or seven minutes to boat there. Nice. And so we went and we were kind of early on the early side, I bet we got there at seven. It's the fireworks were not till nine. We just hung out on the boat. It was my brother and my sister-in-law and my mom and Aaron and Ruthie and the parked the boat probably 200 yards from the barges that set off the fireworks. And I mean, maybe I've seen a better display. I don't think so.

I felt like this was like Detroit River budget of fireworks. It went on forever. They were spectacular. We were directly under them. It was so, so special to be on the water. We were swimming. It was incredible. The echo off of the fireworks onto the forest behind us was maybe the coolest part. The echo was as loud as the fireworks, it seemed. So that was July 4th. And then July 5th, God bless the, I think it's Cedar, maybe Creek, yacht club on the lake. They did their fireworks on the 5th

and that's only like a three minute boat ride. It's virtually next door to the house. Those ones were sneaky. They started out like one at a time. And we were all like, okay, well last night it had a much bigger budget. It was better, but that's fine. This is still lovely. Again, there's like hundreds and hundreds of boats anchored. So it's very Pirates of the Caribbean feeling already. It's really fun.

But this, Monica, this show wouldn't end. We thought we saw the finale like seven times. It became a bit. Well, okay, that's the finale. No, it wasn saw the finale like seven times. It became a bit. Well, okay, that's the finale. No, it wasn't the finale. So it started slow, but it went hard, harder and harder and harder and boy did it all. It was a real toss up with the night before.

But two back to back nights of fireworks on the boat, floating, it's as good as it gets. I couldn't believe how fun it was. I love fireworks. What is your favorite fireworks? Oh, wow. It's floating. It's as good as it gets. I couldn't believe how fun it was. I love fireworks. What is your favorite firework? Oh, wow. I don't know if I have a favorite.

Do you have a favorite? Yeah, I like the kind that- The huge gold one? No, it's not gold. It like, floofs out. It's a floof. Okay. Well, that could describe most of them probably.

Okay, let me look up types of fireworks. I will say when they were blasting a ton off at low altitude and it was just a wall of sparkly, I really liked that quite a bit. And here's a fun update about Frank, cause dogs hate fireworks, that's what they're known for, right? Sure, sure.

They sit home and shake on July 4th. Frank was transfixed by the fireworks. He was staring right at them on the boat both times, and he really enjoyed the fireworks. No fear. Nice. Just excitement, yeah. Well, that's why he's my favorite dog. Okay, this is great.

I like glitter. That's bright twinkling points of color. Okay. Okay, there's also willow, a slow burning effect with a long trailing tail. There's a strobe that's self-explanatory. Peony, a spherical burst of colored stars with a limited trail.

Palm tree, now we all know what palm tree is. A shell effect that resembles the leaves of a palm tree. I do like those. Those are great. There's none I hate. Is there any you dislike? I don't dislike any of them. Yeah, there's a couple that I'm like,

ew about, they give me the feeling. Oh, wow. Yeah, so I was earmarking my reaction to Nashville from last episode where we discussed your GLP-1. Mm-hmm. And I have to say that it is infinitely better than I was expecting. I can't believe what a perfect mix of a lot of things it is

that I just got pure lucky with. Like the lake, Monica. I love a lake, but I will say, like when my dad lived on a small lake, you'd go on a cruise around the lake. You would take your like seven-minute lap of the lake, and then you'd maybe post up at the sandbar, and then that was your activities.

This, the Cumberland River, I can go 60 miles to the right. It's just like endless exploration in little bays and houses to be nosy about. I forgot how much I love being nosy about people's backyards. Because the front yard, you can't really tell what's happening.

But a backyard, you know what's going on with a family if you look into their backyard. Oh, yeah. Anywho, the exploration's outrageous. There are, and I am always so curious, there's a few houses that are like 30,000 square feet. I mean, they're like, you can't tell if they're country clubs or they're houses.

And I get so curious how they made all that money. Yeah, ding ding ding Mindy Kaling. She wants them to write it on their, have a poster outside that says how they got it all. Yes, and then another aspect that I love is, and I think this would bum normal summer goers out, but so much rain and thunderstorms every day.

And I love it. It's very Hawaii, Monica. And you're gonna find out here in seconds. I am, I'm coming to visit. I'm gonna come in a couple of days. I'm really excited. I love a Southern summer. Listen, that's my childhood.

So I wonder if it's gonna be much different. I mean, obviously the lake piece will feel very, very different. But I bet the weather, I bet the, it's gonna feel very at home. I am also gonna go home after that. My parents will demand that. Yes.

Since I'll be so close. Yeah, you're probably like a half hour plane ride away. It only took Erin an hour and 10 minutes from Michigan to get here. Nice. Yeah, it's like a four hour drive. Oh, so I just love it. It's so green.

It's the perfect amount of rural. There's still restaurants. What's your favorite restaurant? Oh, so far there's this, oh, there's been a few good ones. Well, first of all, we went last night into Nashville, first trip to go out to eat in Nashville, and we went to Brick Top,

which, you know about Brick Top? No. If I have this right, don't sue me, I believe the two founders of Houston's split, and I believe the other owner started Bricktop when he left Houston's and there's several and it's dynamite. I couldn't believe how good last night's dinner was.

Oh, was it delicious? Is there a Houston's or a Hillstone in Nashville too? No, but this is it. You should look and compare. Well, maybe there is. You should compare and compare. Well, maybe there is. You should compare and contrast. Okay, I gotta add one other crazy, this is the simmiest sim moment we've had, which is to my great delight, the girls are in heaven.

They love it here so much, which is great. They did say their only complaint and what they miss the most about California is no In-N-Out, right? And I'm like, yeah, that's rough. That's once most about California is no In-N-Out, right? And I'm like, yeah, that's rough. That's once a week we ate it In-N-Out. So then we hung out with Huey one night before they all left and we're talking to him

and he said, do you see, they're open the first In-N-Out in Tennessee, in Mount Julia, where you all are at. It's gonna be open in a month. I go, what? Wow. In-N-Out, he said, is moving their headquarters to Nashville from California, but that's happened.

Their headquarters? Yes. That's weird. Yes. What are the odds that they're opening up an In-N-Out in Mount Julia? I think this is impossible. That is wild.

I almost have to see that to believe it. And it's supposed to be a doozy of an in and out as well. Huge, Monica. What's that? Huge? Gigantic. No, I don't like that. Biggest one in the world.

Part of the charm is waiting in, no, no, no, no. No, I think the biggest one in the world, they just read an article, they're opening one in Las Vegas, that's like four stories. Oh my God. Yeah. That's okay, I'm starting to get worried, now I'm worried. Now you're worried.

This is what happens. What happens? People have to get just so big, and then the quality goes down. No. And then everyone suffers. Economy at scale. No, it's not.

You know that's not true. I'm not gonna bring up a very specific restaurant that this happened to. And it's like, it's dead. It's dead. Arby's? I said I wasn't gonna bring it up. No.

Who? Umami Burger. Oh, that one went downhill, yeah. Completely downhill. But not because of the size or the locations, because of the number of locations, I think. Exactly, but that's what's happening here, too. Now, this is gonna be the best one in the country. I feel very, it's too sim in, um.

Hey, hey, hey, hey. Serendipitous. I don't want it to be a Nashville versus Los Angeles fight between us. It's not gonna be. In this life, okay? No, well it shouldn't be. There's no reason for that. Because I'll start crying. But you don't need Nashville to be bad.

No, it's not bad. I know it's not bad, but I can't have you gunning for it being better. Well, okay, different, it's different. Different, it's different. And the in and out might be bigger, and the service might be faster, I don't know. We'll see, we'll see in like a month. It's part of the charm waiting for so long in the drive through.

Also took the girls to Waffle House for the first time for breakfast. They had, yeah. Oh, I do love Waffle House. Now you're back in, you're in now. Erin and I were saying that for sure, Waffle House of any franchise has had more fights per location than any restaurant in the world. And if you work there, I'm so proud of you.

Like you go there knowing there's gonna be four or five fights tonight between 2 a.m. and 5. And we'll just carry on and serve the food and we will be unflapped. Always the fights in my high school were at Waffle House. Yeah, what Erin and I were saying, we used to go there when we drank at like 2 a.m. when you were parking the car,

the odds felt like 20% chance. That there might be trouble. Did you guys get hash browns smothered, covered and- Scattered. Something else, scattered? Scattered, smothered and covered is how I like it. Yeah. Yummy. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

And the shoes off policy is going swimmingly. It's not a big deal. Oh, I forgot. Okay, so that is implemented. Yes, there are no shoes allowed in the house. Wow, oh my God. There's been a couple of infractions, but all in all, it's been good,

and I think the floors are cleaner for it. With each shoe that doesn't enter the house, you become a little less poor in your head. That's what it is? Yeah, you hated that because of rich people, you told me that. a little less poor in your head. That's what it is? Yeah, you hated that because of rich people. You told me that. Yes, I did tell you that. That is my fear.

And you're right, it should still be my fear, but it's not. Everyone's been fine with it. I think people are enjoying it themselves. No, it's not about other people. It's about you. It's about who you are. You're rich there.

Well. How does it feel? How does it feel to finally embrace that you have means? I often talk about that it's not the fantasy and it's not, but also there's times where it's really fucking good. It is so good to be able to host my family and to go out to eat and to do all that stuff. And yeah, not worry is incredible.

I feel like in the past couple weeks have felt really like the point, and we already know this, but it was just coming to the surface that like really the point of having money is to be generous with it. That's the only way it actually feels good. Mm-hmm, yeah, I would agree.

Is to help other people, give other people experiences they might not be able to have. Host a party, yeah. Host a good party. Host a party. It's the only way to spend money that doesn't feel stressful. Mm-hmm. Like to me, it doesn't feel stressful to be generous.

It feels good. Yes, totally agree. And it's been a very special feeling of like, I think having my sister, my mom, and my brother, it's been a very special feeling of like, I think having my sister, my mom and my brother, it's been a very special feeling thinking about where we've come from and where we just all spent a week together, relaxing and having made it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it feels extra good.

I ran into some really nice armchairs in Palm Springs. I just wanted to shout all of them out. You did? Yeah, multiple ones and they were all very nice. I did feel there was one group that stopped and said hi on their way out of the restaurant for Ryan's birthday. And I felt so embarrassed that there were armed cherries there because we were so loud

in that restaurant and we were being kind of raucous. Obnoxious. Yeah, I would say borderline obnoxious. And I already felt a little self-conscious about that, not really, but kind of. And then the fact that there were arm cherries there made it feel less. But they seemed like they were happy. We were happy. Don't you think they want to see you have a really good time? I would want to. I do. But we were just, I don't know. I don't know if people were like, God, these people.

What was happening? Was there a loud game being played? Was there shouting? Were people hammered? What version of obnoxious? I mean, there were nine of us. So it was a big table and we were drinking. I mean, no one was like super hammered or anything,

but everyone was just very loose and chatty and laughy and jokey and it was Ryan's birthday. So, you know, he- Sure. He- He knows how to have a good time on his birthday. He really, really, really does. Yeah.

Also over the course of the trip, he ordered two beef Wellingtons. Oh my God, they had that at Bricktop, and my father-in-law ordered that last night. And I hadn't seen that on a menu since a cruise ship in Alaska. This is a real ding ding ding. Whoa, this is a ding ding ding. Yes, because also when we got home, he sent us an article that said that a woman poisoned people with beef Wellington for lunch.

That's an expensive poisoning. If you're gonna kill people, just buy hamburger helper. She was probably killing a bunch of elite people. It was like a Robin Hood situation. Kind of like the healthcare situation. Yeah, yes, oh no. Ghiaglio, What's his name? Gia.

Yeah. Gileo. Michelangelo. No, that's not his name. No. No, that's not his name. We got in a big debate per usual on the trip, which I know me and you have had,

but I wonder if your stance has changed or if people maybe haven't heard this, but we got in a big debate whether the phrase best friend refers to one person or multiple people. Okay. And what was consent? Was there consensus or it was very... No. It was varied. It was varied. Because, you know, my stance is, it's one person. Uh-huh. Well, which is also, I say that, and I don't really mean it, I guess. Because I...

Yeah. Why did you just whisper that? What did I whisper? I didn't whisper anything. You whispered, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay, yeah. But you whispered it. Yeah. Because I think in the truest sense, you'd wanna be people's only best friend,

but you'd want multiple best friends. I think that's what my yeah was. But I also was scared, so I just said yeah. You can't be scared of me when you're in a relationship. But I also was scared. So I just said, yeah. You can't be scared of me when you're in Nashville. You're not scared of me in Los Angeles. If I think I'm gonna say something that's gonna make you angry,

I don't wanna do that. That scares me. That's our show. I know. You better do it. Yeah, I did it. I did it. I just did it in a very mitigating way at first

and now I'm owning it. But yeah, I guess I don't know. I think I'm, like Aaron's my best friend. He's been my best friend since I was 11. He's my best friend, but I have a lot of best friends as well. Yeah, that's how I feel about it. How do you feel?

Kelly's your best friend. Right, I mean, that's how I feel about it. How do you feel? Kelly's your best friend. Right, I mean, that's the thing. It's stressful because I do have multiple best friends, but there's something about the grammar and Charlie and I really, I think you could anticipate this, that Charlie and I both have an issue with the grammar. Like, best is one, best is one. And then Ryan tried to say, well, no, best movies

in the Oscars is a lot of movies, but that's one person, one movie wins and that's the best movie. Sure, in that case, yes, I agree. But you can have a best movie Sure, in that case, yes, I agree. But you can have a best motorcycle and a best car and a best truck and a best, they're all conveyances.

I think that's how I would define it, is like there's lots of best foods. There's the best burger and there's best pizza and there's best, those are all food, but there's multiple bests within the overall category of food. And I guess people are as different as food. So I think you can have like your best,

who you go get in trouble with and your best heart to heart and your best, you know, there's a lot of best facets of individual relationships. Yeah, that's true. I think to make it about semantics denies what it's really about, which is about emotions. You want to have a special bond with somebody,

and you want some verbiage that reflects that. Because there are words for other things that are self-evident, like wife or husband or child, mom, dad. Like, we know what that relationship is inherently. And so if I'm talking about someone and I'm trying to say how close we are, and it's at a level that I feel is paramount.

Then I want there to be verbiage around that. That's different than just, oh, they're one of my closest friends. Like that doesn't feel right. Right, you need something more, something harder hitting. Yep, and best friend sort of serves that. Like people do know what a best friend is. Yeah, I guess I just can't, I have multiple.

And I don't feel that guilty about it. And you have multiple, right? Do you have multiple? Uh. Who's Charlie's best friend? Well, that's why, that's when we started it's weird that he was fighting for that one. Because he's like me, like we? Well, that's why, that's when we started parsing up this all. Because he's like me, like we,

like it's just, it doesn't make, it doesn't make sense. Oh, do you think that could be only childishness? Like any, do you think that might be related to you guys' only child? Well, I'm not an only child. You're your parents' only child for eight years. Versus I've always been one of two and for most of my life, one of three.

And so- Interesting. I think by definition or description, I already was less important, but I found such an important relationship with my mom within that sharing structure that I might be a little less sensitive to it. Maybe.

I mean, it kind of makes sense. If you're forced to grow up like in a duo and share the love of someone, it's just standard. But I did have to do that just later, a little bit later. And I didn't bother me. That helps because you thought you were superior because he was such a dumb-dumb. He was a little baby.

No! He was a baby and you could ride a bike. Don't you dare. I just learned. No, he was superior. He was so much cuter than me when he was a little baby. And everyone said, goo goo gaga. No, he was, he was such a cute baby.

He did have a head full of dandruff, which was weird. Oh, gross, that's not. Yeah, it was gross. It was a reaction to some sort of formula or something, but even still he was so cute. Oh. Oh. Okay, so maybe he had that too.

I don't know, it feels like it could be a clue. It could be, you're right, it could be. But I think it's more like type A, double Virgo, best is one, best is one. Like who's the best basketball player of all time, Michael Jordan? There's one. But that's not even true. We know that the best basketball player of all time, Michael Jordan? There's one. But that's not even true.

We know that's not true. Of all time? Of course it's true. There are incredible players, but there are goats. There are greatest of all time in sports. Yeah, so Bill Russell won eight titles and he was the coach of the team while he was a player. You could definitely argue Bill Russell's better than him.

I think Kobe is just as good as him, didn't win as many championships. I think they, some of these people now all suffer from, they are in the wake of this, of course, incredible, one of the best to ever do it. But I think there's a lot of tricky branding that goes on. It's just like, he occupies that place. And even if a basketball player was better than Jordan,

he wouldn't get that moniker at this point. You're right. Until 20 years goes by maybe. And like Valentino Rossi is a God. He's my number one God. He's my Michael Jordan. And I have to admit, I was looking at the number of race wins

that Mark Marquez now has. It's more than Valley by a considerable amount. What's the other guy's name? Marc Marquez. His name is two times Marc? That's right, Marc times two. In span they'd say times do. Wow, he's really, he's the actual Marky Mark.

And Alex Marquez, his younger brothers and number two. But yeah, I was just looking at that and I was like, well, look, the numbers would suggest that I'm wrong. Valley's not Michael Jordan, just numbers wise. But for me, he is Michael Jordan. He'll continue, because he had to race against Mark Marquez. Mark Marquez hasn't had to race against Mark Marquez. I feel like that's

not his name now and I know his name very well and now you have me scared. So I'm just going to chat GPT, okay? Okay. Who's a better motorcycle rider, Valenzuela Rossi or Mark Marquez? This might make it blow up. This is the type of double Virgo situation where it's going to give you an opinion as fact and I'm not gonna like it. Here's how it breaks down. There's no clear better overall, but the answer depends on what you value most.

Valentino Rossi, the legend. World championships, nine. Seven in premier class. Wins, 89. Podiums, 235. Okay, Mark has 235. Okay. Mark has had eight world championships, six in Premier.

Okay, so he's still gotta win one more to catch up so he's gonna win this year. Race wins 59, all Valentino 89. What did I see? Oh, gosh. Podiums 140, podiums 235. Oh, so I'm, no, I'm still safely very much.

Exactly, there's a clear best. Yeah. And is that his name? Yeah, it is Mark Marquez. Yeah, thank God. Great. That would have been humiliating. Okay, well good, that was a good day for me. I found out my hero is statistically better. And a good day for me because confirming that best is best.

Right, best is still best. Look, I do want to be everyone's best. I get that is part of it, but it's also grammar. And back to Charlie, he agrees with me, but he then couldn't really say. See, this is what happens. When you believe this, it is then hard to say who your best friend is because in reality,

I guess we do all hold multiple. But then he ended up saying Ace, which was very cute. Oh, that is good. Yeah, but it was a cop out because he just needed to say one. He said Erica. Okay. He said Erica.

Okay, his wife. And then he switched it to Ace. Okay. Both safe options. And was Ryan hurt during any of that? Or he seemed fine? He was all right. Okay, great.

Did Ryan say who his best friend was? No, he's in the category of everyone is. Everyone's his best friend. Not everyone, he's in the category of everyone is. Everyone's his best friend. Not everyone, but that, no. That's you. No. I think, yeah, you do throw it around. I just know so many special people.

Like you're gonna not call Penne or Nate Tuck best friend? No way. Well, here's, okay. So then special people and best friend are not the same thing. They're not, you're right. Cause I know. So then special people and best friend are not the same thing They're not you're right because I know a lot of special people that are not my best friends, right? Yeah, but I know a handful that are dakota johnson who I just saw I feel like there was some overlap Maybe dakota johnson was with

Lewis hamilton somewhere. Is that what I saw? No, she's married? No, she was with Kate. Oh, and Tom TB12. Tom Brady. Tom Brady. Yeah, I saw that on Instagram. She had a really cute outfit, bathing suit and skirt. This is our pop culture podcast now.

We're do pop culture. Yeah, I saw a photo. It's all positive. On Instagram of TB12 and Kate and Johnson. Yeah, I saw that too. And I obviously immediately looked up the skirt. I almost bought it, but I didn't buy it. You gotta be careful when you say you looked up the skirt, cause that's a perv. That's a category of photographs on the dark web

called up skirts, and you want to stay clear of any association with that. Well, I have to double down. I did look up the skirt. Oh my God. What would you see? How did it look? A gorgeous, gorgeous interior.

Even better than the exterior. No, I didn't buy it. I wanted to buy it, but I didn't buy it because Trizz, I guess. Trizz? Trezepatite? Trizz is, yeah, that's what we call it. Oh, you call, that's what you call the GLP-1, Trizz. Yeah. I love it.

Yeah. So you can't buy anything because TRIZ might take you out of the size? No, remember I'm also doing it to curb shopping. Oh, right. Okay, God, there's so many things at play. That makes sense. Yeah, there are. And has it had any effect on your shopping?

You said no. No, I've gone shopping so much. I got this sweater. On the way to Palm Springs, there's an insane outlet mall. Which is got this sweater on the way to Palm Springs. There's an insane outlet. Which is mostly why you wanna go to Palm Springs, right? No. Okay. Yes. Yeah.

I wasn't gonna go. I wasn't gonna go, okay? And then I was driving right past it and I turned around. Wow, you got off in a later exit and then went backtracked? I turned around. Wow, you got off in a later exit and then went backtracked? I turned around. Wow. And then I was stopped at a train for so long. Of cars?

Like the longest train I've ever. Or an actual train was passing. A train was passing and I was stopped there for so long that it really was like, oh no. The universe was smiting you, yeah. That's right, really, really punished. But then the train ended and I went straight into the stores. And had a great time. It was great.

I had a great time. How was the triz with drinking on the trip? Cause it would normally be a big drinking trip. It was still a drinking trip. It was definitely less than usual. I think normally on those types of trips, like you're drinking early. Right.

I started drinking later in the day than I definitely used to. Yeah. And then I would stop early, but I always kind of stop early. I'm not someone who drinks into the night. I like to be done early. So because the late start and the early end,

there's less consumption, definitely. I also was sweating it all out. Sure, sweating to the oldies. That's what they say. That's, uh, that was the guy was the guy who danced around a lot, who was missing, who was always on Letterman. Flamboyant man, you know him, exercising. Oh, Richard Simmons.

Yes, Richard Simmons' DVD collection was called Sweatin' to the Oldies, and you would dance to these catchy old songs, and the pounds would melt away. Oh my, how fun. They should have Ozempic-like paired musical tracks where just you take your Ozempic and put this CD on and then you lose a bunch of weight. Pfft.

Have you looked at any of the comments? What's the reaction? I haven't. I haven't been over to our page because our page is more dangerous than my page. And anytime we wade into anything controversial, I just avoid our page. So we talked about Taylor. And so I just knew better than to look at our page for a while.

Okay. Yeah. So I'm not sure. Okay. Well, I hope people respect that I was honest. I didn't see anything on my page, which means it's not controversial. Cause I will see things on my page if they're enough. Controversial and nothing.

Yeah. Not one thing. Okay. Yeah, everyone's supportive. I'm gonna take that as support. Oh wow. Okay, we're really taking a leap. Yeah.

All right, should we do some facts? Yes, let's do some facts. Some facts for Jerrod. Ah, Jerrod. He's so amazing. I love him. I love him. He's so introspective and insightful and thoughtful.

Like he's just thinking about the world all the time. And it's so fun to talk to people like that. Okay, now the Botox, so I just said that my Botox was called something specific because it's like, I can still kind of move. Yeah. Because it's like the actor's Botox or whatever. And I didn't know if that was,

there was an actual name for it. Not really, it just says like micro dose or something. I think my guy just has a cute name for it. Not really. It just says like micro dose or something. I think my guy just has a cute name for it. Yeah. Shout out Contra Posto, Casey Welk. He's perfect. Is he a magician when you go so far as to say he's a magician?

Yeah, cause I love magicians and I love Casey and he does great work. And I do think it's subtle. Oh yeah. I would have no idea. Other than that, you look too young to drink wine. Even for a 25 year old. By the way, that whole thing with you getting carded, that makes sense if you're 50,

because I can no longer tell anything below 35 I'm out to lunch on. I don't know if someone's in high school or in graduate school. But when you're 25, you have a good barometer of who's 20. I know. And corrective skin care. I owe a lot to a lot of people and my parents. Some of this is just genes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

OK, did Michael Jackson's nose fall off entirely? According to the Internet, it did not fall off entirely and that that's a rumor. Oh, okay. So, I feel obligated to say that the internet says that's not true. I wanna tell us, cause it came up last night funny enough at dinner

and I know we've told it before, but it's worth repeating now that we're talking about Michael Jackson. Yeah, Ryan's driving the car, he's got his three girls, Michael Jackson comes on, they're listening to it, and everyone's just like, I love Michael Jackson, he was the best. And then Ryan feels compelled to like, just add an asterisk,

like, well, he's a little complicated. And then the second he says that he realizes, I don't wanna explain to them why it's complicated. They're very young. He said, he did some really bad things. Yes. And they were like, what? And he's like, I don't wanna talk about it.

It's now is not the time. We won't talk about it later. He's like, no, daddy tell us. And then the middle child Millie goes, oh my God, did he smoke cigarettes? That was their first guess. Did he smoke cigarettes? That was their first guess. Did he smoke cigarettes? Because it was really bad.

And Ryan goes, no, no, he didn't smoke cigarettes. He was like, he did some really bad things. No, we're not going to talk about it. It was really bad. Like he was like emphasizing how bad it was. And then, oh, did he smoke cigarettes? Right. And then the second guess was, did he show his penis to somebody?

And then Ryan's like, okay, well, it's he has definitely more in that world, but in order smoking cigarettes would be worse than showing your penis to somebody. I know. This is actually timely because cigarettes feel like they're sort of back in culture. I find that to be scary.

Yeah, I just heard that maybe Jen Alpha, whatever, whatever, one of the younger generations is like reinvigorated by smoking cigarettes, which is hysterical. It's so, it's like, we just all are like fine with dying, I guess, like everyone's just like end of the world. I do think that might be part of it. It's like, well, fuck it. It's like well fuck it

Everything's bad. Everything's messed up might as well smoke and it's like in movies again, like as a cool Thing retro and do you know about this diet cokes are called fridge cigarettes now I heard that recently and I loved it. That's so good It's great for you because you love diet coke and I love cigarettes so much but to me what it points out is like our Overall culture is a pendulum right? We've felt it swing particularly in the last four years, right it's just like there's all these overcorrections and then, but it's also happening intergenerationally. And the downside is they're like, oh yeah,

those, the older people are so terrified of smoking. So then they're, they kind of appeals to them. But then the encouraging thing for me is like the incessant hating half of the country, that too will be a thing that they're like, oh my God, they're so fucking stupid. So it's like, there's positive parts of it. It's always just like some reaction

to the previous generation, I think. Maybe. Well, we'll see. We just know it causes cancer. We sure do. They have been working on, I've read about it. There is a lung cancer vaccine in trials.

Really? These younger generations, they have no fucking clue how lucky they are. No chicken pox, they'll never get HPV, and by God, maybe they can bang darts without lung cancer. Wow. Yeah. Gosh, if they have a lung cancer vaccine,

would I start smoking cigarettes? This is interesting. You must, you must. Gosh, if they have a lung cancer vaccine, would I start smoking cigarettes? This is interesting. You must, you must. You'd look so cool and then you'd shave your side and then there's just be like this whole chapter that everyone would be excited to watch. As you can imagine, I've thought about it because I loved it so much.

I mean, I really loved smoking. And I was like, fuck, if they get that vaccine, would I? And ultimately, no. Because I was such a bad smoker though. Like, you know me, I cough all day long without anything in my lungs. So I've already thought this through and I'm not gonna do it even if there's a vaccine.

It also stinks. Like the other day I was walking by and I was like, ugh, like it smells bad. Oh, it's terrible, but you should know when you're a smoker, you can't smell it. So like when you start smoking, you'll be fine. Your whole house will smell like an ashtray, but you won't know.

Ew, that's literally my nightmare. You know, I'm so scared of smelling and not knowing it. It might be a nice submersion therapy for you. Okay, who are the background singers on Donna Summer's song, State of Independence? Okay, yeah, okay, so Quincy Jones assembled this and Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Dionne Warwick, Lionel Richie, Brenda Russell, Christopher Cross, Kenny Loggins, James Ingram and Michael McDonald.

Okay. He talked about the movie Network and he said he thought maybe the actor won the Oscar and she was on screen for just a couple of minutes. The man won the Oscar, but he was dead. But he died before he could receive the Oscar? Yeah. Posthumously? Wow, that must have been the first year that an Oscar winner was also in the Immemorial. Wow.

That's sad. Yeah, but also kind of a full takeover. Did it happen to Heath? He was alive when he won. Okay. Yeah, because he did Batman after, uh, Cowboy movie. Brokeback. Yeah. Let me ask you a question.

Brokeback now sounds inherently gay, but I can't imagine it did before the movie. Do you think? There's nothing about that word before the movie, but when you hear broke back, you immediately think this gay love story. Right, yeah, no, I'm sure. Because what does it mean?

I don't even remember. Is that the name of the mountain? I don't remember. Yes, but it sounds like onomatopoeia for something gay sex a little bit, broke back mountain. No. You don't think so? No, it does not.

No. No, no, no, no. You're saying because why, it doesn't have to be gay sex. That just sounds like sex and you might break your back. Yeah, but it sounds like doggy style and arched back. Which hetero couples do constantly. They can't get enough of it, you're right. But yeah, so I guess not.

But it does, I agree, it does sound kind of like reverse back. Back? Yeah, but we still don't even know what that means. Back is a triggering word. Let's just agree on that. Yeah, well, oh, you're OK. Yeah, because back bottom anal. Yeah. Well, broke bottom mountain, broke bottom mountain that now that's

we could agree. Yeah. Yeah, I'll give you that. OK. Yes. Heath Ledger was nominated for and won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor posthumously for his role as the Joker in Dark Knight. So he did win. Oh, okay.

You know, I just wanna end it. He said a quote of, I think he said, his friend said it, so this is very telephone, but I really liked it. I really liked when he said, what got you here won't get you there. I thought that was great. My feelings are a little bit hurt because that's, I say that I have the same same,

I just worded it a little different, but it never made an impact on you. I know. Mine is what got you to the party won't keep you at the party. Won't keep you, I know. And I- You don't care when I say it. I get it.

I, no, it's not that I don't care. I love you, but this has a better ring to it. You like the branding better, the messaging? I like the play on words. What got you here won't get you there. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. I mean, mine has party in it,

so it sounds a little more fun. What's there? Could be marooned on an island. Wow. Okay. All right. Okay, yours is better. No, it's all right.

Yeah, your true feelings are known. Monica, there are so many deer out my window. It's insane. There's two little baby deer that live in my yard. We've named them Bambi and the boy's name is the best. Bambi and, oh man, I gotta get the groove. Bamboo? Brambus, Bambi and Brambus.

I don't know, oh, I can't remember. Something like that. Oh, I can't remember. So something like that. Oh, Bambi is is fortuitous. Because doesn't Bambi die or does Bambi's mom die? We lose Bambi's mom, I believe. OK. Yeah. In the great tradition of all Disney movies, the parents die in the opening frame. And that's right. Yeah. In the great tradition of all Disney movies, the parents die in the opening frame and then. That's right.

Yeah. It's a good device. Strong. All right. Let's end on dead parents. Okay, great. I'd love to. Love you.

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